| Subject: |
[novaroma] Taxation |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 5 Nov 2000 21:40:06 -0500 |
|
Salvete Omnes;
While I am usually content to not involve myself in the day-to-day business
of Nova Roma, there are times when questions are before the People and
Senate of our fair Republic which compell my commentary. The current issue
of taxation is one such.
I am against the proposal at this time.
It is certainly true that the Constitution grants the State the power to
levy such taxes (paragraph V.B.2). Everyone who applied for Citizenship
could read that and know that that power could be exercised. Those who
assail the taxation idea on the basis that it is either illegal or some sort
of "bait and switch" are simply wrong and seem to be agitating for the sake
of agitating. Indeed, many if not most organizations collect some sort of
dues from their membership to cover expenses and undertake projects which
are felt to be worthy, so it is hardly an outlandish proposal that Citizens
of Nova Roma do likewise.
However, I do not feel that a compelling argument has yet been made as to
why this power needs to be exercised by the Senate at this time. As far as I
am aware, our immediate expenses are covered through donations from Citizens
(including magistrates who often cover such expenses out of their own
pockets) and use-fees (such as the subscription fee to the newsletter). The
last I knew, we were not running a deficit.
Are there any particular projects that are in the works which justify such
new sources of revenue? Are we on the verge of buying land and building a
temple to the Gods? Are we buying new computer equipment and planning on
offering streaming video gladiator contests? Are we outfitting a reenactment
Legio and putting them on tour? If not, then why do we need the money?
I am staunchly against the idea that taxes should be levied simply to fill
our coffers, with the assurance that we'll find a way to spend the money.
Surely, if we have money sitting around, we will indeed find ways to spend
it, merely for the sake of doing so. I say no. Let's figure out what we want
to do first, and THEN raise the money to do it.
Personally, I would vastly prefer a model where specific projects are
proposed, discussed, and then funded by one-time levys. Indeed, this would
be much truer to our historical roots than an annual payment by every
Citizen. I would be much more comfortable with one-time taxation for
specific projects-- the merit of which is debated before the monies are
raised-- than raising the money first and then figuring out how it can be
spent.
Valete,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus
Senator et Proconsul
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Taxation |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 5 Nov 2000 22:18:32 -0800 |
|
Ave!
I just wanted to comment on part of this. Mainly about the part of
magistrates contributing funds to NR. Quite frankly, I do not appreciate
the fact that I spend many sleepless nites working for NR and then I am to
be expected to pay money to do the job I was elected to do.
My current tale of expenses include:
Numerous phone calls to my colleague, each average about 3 hours. Yes, this
means that there have been times that we have been on the phone LONGER than
3 hours. Just a week ago, we were on the line for over 4 hours. That is an
average of 20-25.00 per month on my phone bill.
Numerous phone calls to citizens who I cannot reach via email. That is an
average of between $5-10.00 per month on my phone bill. (This does not
count international calls, since quite frankly I cannot afford that.)
Endless reams of paper, currnetly the count is up to about 4 reams so far.
And the current ream only has about 200 sheets left...and I havent even
started my latest shift in Censorship work.
3 Ink cartridges, at 27-35 buck a pop.
2 notebooks, one a 4 inch binder and one a 2 inch binder. The 4 inch binder
was $12.00 @ Office Depot.
And, I have had to get a copy of Microsoft 2000. Since my Microsoft 97 CD
died, and went to CD heaven. LOL
This doesnt even count the hours I have spent and the nites I have gone
sleepless in the effort to try to fulfill the duties of my job. While I
realize that to get paid for this position isnt going to happen, I
definately would like to be reimbursed for the monies I have spent so far.
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
----- Original Message -----
From: "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 6:40 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Taxation
> Salvete Omnes;
>
> While I am usually content to not involve myself in the day-to-day
business
> of Nova Roma, there are times when questions are before the People and
> Senate of our fair Republic which compell my commentary. The current issue
> of taxation is one such.
>
> I am against the proposal at this time.
>
> It is certainly true that the Constitution grants the State the power to
> levy such taxes (paragraph V.B.2). Everyone who applied for Citizenship
> could read that and know that that power could be exercised. Those who
> assail the taxation idea on the basis that it is either illegal or some
sort
> of "bait and switch" are simply wrong and seem to be agitating for the
sake
> of agitating. Indeed, many if not most organizations collect some sort of
> dues from their membership to cover expenses and undertake projects which
> are felt to be worthy, so it is hardly an outlandish proposal that
Citizens
> of Nova Roma do likewise.
>
> However, I do not feel that a compelling argument has yet been made as to
> why this power needs to be exercised by the Senate at this time. As far as
I
> am aware, our immediate expenses are covered through donations from
Citizens
> (including magistrates who often cover such expenses out of their own
> pockets) and use-fees (such as the subscription fee to the newsletter).
The
> last I knew, we were not running a deficit.
>
> Are there any particular projects that are in the works which justify such
> new sources of revenue? Are we on the verge of buying land and building a
> temple to the Gods? Are we buying new computer equipment and planning on
> offering streaming video gladiator contests? Are we outfitting a
reenactment
> Legio and putting them on tour? If not, then why do we need the money?
>
> I am staunchly against the idea that taxes should be levied simply to fill
> our coffers, with the assurance that we'll find a way to spend the money.
> Surely, if we have money sitting around, we will indeed find ways to spend
> it, merely for the sake of doing so. I say no. Let's figure out what we
want
> to do first, and THEN raise the money to do it.
>
> Personally, I would vastly prefer a model where specific projects are
> proposed, discussed, and then funded by one-time levys. Indeed, this would
> be much truer to our historical roots than an annual payment by every
> Citizen. I would be much more comfortable with one-time taxation for
> specific projects-- the merit of which is debated before the monies are
> raised-- than raising the money first and then figuring out how it can be
> spent.
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus
> Senator et Proconsul
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Visiting Roman Sites |
| From: |
Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 5 Nov 2000 23:27:10 -0800 (PST) |
|
--- "pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
wrote:
> However, there is another option open to those who
> wish to move on.
> Start a new topic! What Roman books have you been
> reading lately? What
> questions do you have about Roman history and
> culture? What ideas do
> you have for building and publicizing Nova Roma?
I have just returned from "Southern Germania"
(Switzerland) with my family. On the way home to
Heidelberg, we stopped at Augusta Raurica, a Roman
city on the Rhine that is remarkably well preserved.
In the museum/city area they are rebuilding the small
coliseum there and most of it is off-limits. The
forum is pretty much just a large field. I
particularly liked the curia, altho' my family didn't
like that I used its completely restored chamber for a
speech to them. There is also an almostly completely
restored house, including furnishings, a bakery, and
the ruins of a temple.
Down at the river front is the old castellum,
including a baptistry (from the early Christian era).
There were a lot of sculptures, columns, and mosaics
everywhere.
I'm leaving a lot off, I know, but this is what comes
to mind. I took some pictures and when they come it,
perhaps they will prod my mind more.
The museum cost 5 SFr for my wife and I (each) and
something less for my son (3 SFr, I think), which
seemed like a good deal to me.
My whole family had fun there, altho' we didn't have
time to see all of it. A highly recommended site for
the NR traveller.
L A Dalmaticus
=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839
"Statistics show that married men live longer than single men, but they are more willing to die." -- Anonymous
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] The Tax code revised. |
| From: |
sfp55@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 6 Nov 2000 05:17:14 EST |
|
The Tax code revised.
I. The Amount
The amount will be set by the Senate. The Senate will set the due amount on
a province by province basis based on information forwarded by the provincial
praetors on what their average citizen will be able to pay. The Senate may
rise or lower amounts depending on the provincial praetor's reports for that
fiscal year.
Once amount is set it remains in force for that fiscal year.
II Requirements:
In order to obtain a GNP for the nation of Rome, the citizens will be taxed
in the following manners.
A. Citizen Tax:
All Roman citizens will be eligible to pay their set amount.
Those who wish to be actively involved in Roman Politics, i.e the holding of
magistracies, they must have their due amounts paid so they are in good
standing.
Citizens of Rome, who do not or cannot pay their due amount still receive
protection under Roman law and they are treated the same as the Roman
citizens in "good standing" except they may not stand for magistracies. They
still may hold religious offices, take part in debates, attend the chatroom,
and vote.
Citizens may recover their good standing by paying their current owed amount
for that fiscal year.
There will never be any additional money that must be made up.
B. The Tax on Sales.
Merchants doing business in Nova Roma's Mecelleum are required to give a
percentage from each transaction to the Roman Treasury. This percentage will
be set by the Censors at the start of the Roman fiscal year. It can never
exceed 10% of the total sale
C. The Emergency Levy
The Roman State, (The Consuls & Senate) if in a Financial Crisis, may call
on all Senators, Patricians and Magistrates to contribute additional monies
to the Treasury in addition to their usual sum. This contribution is
entirely voluntary, and failure to meet it will not result in any reduction
of status. There may be a drop in stature among their peers, however.
D. Donations
Donations to the Roman State are welcomed and encouraged. However such
donations do not forgive the basic tax which will still have to paid.
II. Procedure. By the start of the month of the Roman Saturnalia (December)
will be the end of collection period for the bulk of monies. Citizens may
began to pay at the beginning of Sexilis (August). If their amount is not
paid by the start of November (the Kalendis Novembribus) from that point on
their status in not in good standing,
and will so be noted. Citizens that do not remit the amount at the beginning
of the period (Sexilis through Novemberes) will have to send their sum
directly to the Treasury of Rome.
Note that this means that they still must pay the current amount when the
time for it falls due.
III. Collection
There are two ways the citizens may pay. Send directly to
the Roman Treasury, or send to the Provincial Praetor during the gathering
period of the months of Sextilis to Novemberes.
The amount must be in US dollars. Therefore, Non US provinces will have to
convert the money into a money order. American Express seems to be the
cheapest way to do this, and this is why the Provincial Praetor should be the
collector. Once the money has been gathered, this officer can convert these
into a single money order to be sent to the Roman Treasury.
Praetors will authorized to take the conversation charge for the money order
from the sum. Praetors will also be authorized to retain 10% of the gathered
sum to compensate for their trouble. This will be returned to the province as
the Praetor and his staff see fit.
Non US provincial citizens who do not wish to send their amount to the
Provincial Praetor (or there is no Praetor to send it to) will have to send
it directly to the Roman Treasury. If the amount is sent during the months
Sextilis to Novemberes the citizen will be authorized to take the money order
cost from the sum, to encourage timely compliance. If after the period the
additional amount must be
paid. (Consider it a penalty)
IV. Forgiveness.
A. New citizens entering Rome, are forgiven payment (except on sales) for
the period of one year. They are considered members in good standing until
the year is completed. They then fall under the obligation.
B. Additional Forgiveness
There are Provinces that may not be able to pay the decreed amount due to
Natural Disasters, Military Coups, etc. Forgiveness may be extended by the
Senate to provinces for reasons that would be germane at the time.
C. While all our Provincial Praetors are good people, there is always the
chance that temptation will strike and the Praetor not send the money
forward, keeping it for himself. If this would happen, those citizens in
that province would be given forgiveness for that year. Rome would have to
deal with the treacherous Praetor.
In the future Praetors may have to bonded, but until the Treasury can pay for
the Bonding, the amounts handled are fairly small so I believe no theft will
take place
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Tax Law |
| From: |
Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 6 Nov 2000 02:26:28 -0800 (PST) |
|
Salve!
Below is the tax plan as presented on the NR List. While I think it is a good idea, there are some bugs to work out.
First of all, there is the term "tax." If we are a nation, it is the correct term. If we are a club, then use "dues". What is not resolved in many people's minds is which category we fit into. I'd stick with "tax."
I. The Amount
The amount of the tax will be set by the Senate. Suggest it should be between 25-20 dollars US. These amounts will give the Treasury some status, and still be affordable by most people.
If the Senate wishes to set a tax on a province by province basis that would be fine as well, though it would appear that standardizing works best. This amount may be raised or lowered depending on Rome's financial situation at the start of each fiscal year.
**No problem with the amount -- the amount seems reasonable, but don't like that it can be changed every year. Fix dues, then live within the budget. You can increase it, but that should be done by the Senate.
** Change the first lines to read: "The amount of the tax will be set $20 dollars, payable in US funds. NovaRoma is not responsible for cash sent by mail." Get rid of the rest of the paragraph.
** You're going to get some shock, since people are being asked to pay for what they have been doing for free. The population will drop...or people will move to Secundus status (which is where we all are now, pretty much).
II Requirements:
In order to obtain a GNP for the nation of Rome, the citizens will be taxed in the following manners.
A. The poll Tax:
The Roman citizen body will be divided into two parts. The Classes Primus and the Classes Secundus. These Classi are not determined by Gens or Class, they are determined by monetary contribution to Rome. Classes Primus are those who wish to be actively involved in Roman Politics including voting, and the holding of magistracies. In order to do so, they must have their taxes paid so they are in good standing. A citizen in good standing is called a member of the Classes Primus.
Citizens who simply want to be members of the various clubs, and attend Nova Roman functions and take advantage of Nova Roma's historical knowledge, are called Classes Secundus. The Classes Secundus are full citizens of Rome, they receive protection under Roman law and they are treated the same as the Classes Primus. However they may not stand for magistracies. They cannot vote. They may take part in debates, attend the chatroom, express their opinion in "public."
** OK
Those of the Classes Secundus may recover their good standing by paying only their current owed taxes. There will never be any back taxes that must be made up. Likewise the Classes Primus may become Classes Secundus by not paying their current taxes. They may recover good standing by paying their taxes later.
** This makes it seem that the Secundus are in arrears. In fact, it is a lesser citizenship. They are what the SCA calls "participants", vice members.
**Change the line to read: "Likewise the Classes Primus become Classes Secundus by failing to pay their current taxes."
B. The Sales Tax.
** <no personal interest in this.>
C. Emergency tax
The Roman State, (The Consuls & Senate) if in a Financial Crisis, may call on Senators, Patricians and Magistrates to contribute additional monies to the Treasury in addition to their tax. This contribution is entirely voluntary, and failure to meet it will not result in any reduction of status. There may be a drop in stature among their peers, however.
**Recommend the last line be removed, as it says nothing.
D. Donations
Donations to the Roman State are welcomed and encouraged. However such donations do not forgive the basic tax which will still have to paid.
**Should say "has to be paid."
II. Procedure.
** Should be "III" (others following also change), but that's minor. No other comments.
III. Collection
There are two ways the citizens may pay their taxes. Send them directly to the Roman Treasury, or send them to the Provincial Praetor during the tax gathering period of the months of Sextilis to Novemberes. The amount must be in US dollars. Therefore, Non US provinces will have to convert the money into a money order. American Express seems to be the cheapest way to do this, and this is why the Provincial Praetor should be the collector. Once the taxes have been gathered, this officer can convert these into a single Money Order to be sent to the Roman Treasury. Praetors will authorized to take the conversation charge for the money order from the tax sum. Praetors will also be authorized to retain 10% of the gathered taxes to compensate for their trouble. (As this will involve some work.) Non US provincial citizens who do not wish to send their tax to the Provincial Praetor (or there is no Praetor to send it to) will have to send it directly to the Roman Treasury. If the tax is sent during the months Sextilis to Novemberes the citizen will be authorized to take the Money Order cost from the tax sum, to encourage timely compliance. If after the period the additional amount must be paid. (Consider it a penalty)
** Recommend you make it payable to a central treasury, not later than a certain date, in US funds. Many US-based international organizations do this. It's not your problem how to get the money to you. There is no need for the praetor to be a middle man.
** Who cares if it is an American Express Money Order? I live in Germania and can write you a check on a US bank. You want your money, that's all you need to say. Replace the whole paragraph with: "Citizens may pay their taxes by sending them directly to the Roman Treasury during the tax gathering period of the months of Sextilis to Novemberes. The amount must be in US funds." Also, if you want me to send you a check, you have to give me an address...this is the place to do that, or to say where it can be found.
IV. Tax Forgiveness.
A. New citizens entering Rome, are forgiven taxes (except sales) for the period of one year. They are considered members of Classes Primus until the year is completed. They then fall under the tax obligation.
** Good
B. Additional Tax forgiveness
There are certain Eastern Provinces that may not be able to pay the decreed tax. Those Provinces' Praetors may petition the Senate to ask for tax forgiveness. The Senate then may decree a smaller amount, or no amount at all. It is hoped that the Senate would never decree no amount as it would set a bad precedent. While all our Provincial Praetors are good people, there is always the chance that temptation will strike and the Praetor not send the money forward, keeping it for himself. If this would happen, those citizens in that province would be given tax forgiveness for that year. Rome would have to deal with the treacherous Praetor. Tax forgiveness may also be extended by the Senate to provinces for reasons that would be germane at the time. (Natural Disasters, Military Coups, etc.)
** This should probably be two paragraphs, one of tax relief for impoverished provinces, and one for thieving praetors.
** Better still, get rid of the part about "certain Eastern provinces." (Were I in the middle of a coup, I would have more to worry about than whether it was legal for me to be a magistrate.)
** Change the whole paragraph to read: "Tax forgiveness may be extended by the Senate for reasons that would be germane at the time."
V. Implementing:
This is a large step for Rome, but one that must be taken if we are to move on in our quest to become a true micro nation with a GNP.
** "As normal?" Have you been collecting taxes in that province? Am I reading this right, that you are looking for a province to volunteer to pay dues when no others due?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
**I hope the authors of the original draft law will understand that my comments are meant to increase the glory of Rome, not to attack the Senate, or any NR person or persons. My comments are intended to be constructive. Where they are not, I apologize for the offense,and plead poor wording on my part.
Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839
"Statistics show that married men live longer than single men, but they are more willing to die." -- Anonymous
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Tax Law |
| From: |
Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 6 Nov 2000 02:26:37 -0800 (PST) |
|
Salve!
Below is the tax plan as presented on the NR List. While I think it is a good idea, there are some bugs to work out.
First of all, there is the term "tax." If we are a nation, it is the correct term. If we are a club, then use "dues". What is not resolved in many people's minds is which category we fit into. I'd stick with "tax."
I. The Amount
The amount of the tax will be set by the Senate. Suggest it should be between 25-20 dollars US. These amounts will give the Treasury some status, and still be affordable by most people.
If the Senate wishes to set a tax on a province by province basis that would be fine as well, though it would appear that standardizing works best. This amount may be raised or lowered depending on Rome's financial situation at the start of each fiscal year.
**No problem with the amount -- the amount seems reasonable, but don't like that it can be changed every year. Fix dues, then live within the budget. You can increase it, but that should be done by the Senate.
** Change the first lines to read: "The amount of the tax will be set $20 dollars, payable in US funds. NovaRoma is not responsible for cash sent by mail." Get rid of the rest of the paragraph.
** You're going to get some shock, since people are being asked to pay for what they have been doing for free. The population will drop...or people will move to Secundus status (which is where we all are now, pretty much).
II Requirements:
In order to obtain a GNP for the nation of Rome, the citizens will be taxed in the following manners.
A. The poll Tax:
The Roman citizen body will be divided into two parts. The Classes Primus and the Classes Secundus. These Classi are not determined by Gens or Class, they are determined by monetary contribution to Rome. Classes Primus are those who wish to be actively involved in Roman Politics including voting, and the holding of magistracies. In order to do so, they must have their taxes paid so they are in good standing. A citizen in good standing is called a member of the Classes Primus.
Citizens who simply want to be members of the various clubs, and attend Nova Roman functions and take advantage of Nova Roma's historical knowledge, are called Classes Secundus. The Classes Secundus are full citizens of Rome, they receive protection under Roman law and they are treated the same as the Classes Primus. However they may not stand for magistracies. They cannot vote. They may take part in debates, attend the chatroom, express their opinion in "public."
** OK
Those of the Classes Secundus may recover their good standing by paying only their current owed taxes. There will never be any back taxes that must be made up. Likewise the Classes Primus may become Classes Secundus by not paying their current taxes. They may recover good standing by paying their taxes later.
** This makes it seem that the Secundus are in arrears. In fact, it is a lesser citizenship. They are what the SCA calls "participants", vice members.
**Change the line to read: "Likewise the Classes Primus become Classes Secundus by failing to pay their current taxes."
B. The Sales Tax.
** <no personal interest in this.>
C. Emergency tax
The Roman State, (The Consuls & Senate) if in a Financial Crisis, may call on Senators, Patricians and Magistrates to contribute additional monies to the Treasury in addition to their tax. This contribution is entirely voluntary, and failure to meet it will not result in any reduction of status. There may be a drop in stature among their peers, however.
**Recommend the last line be removed, as it says nothing.
D. Donations
Donations to the Roman State are welcomed and encouraged. However such donations do not forgive the basic tax which will still have to paid.
**Should say "has to be paid."
II. Procedure.
** Should be "III" (others following also change), but that's minor. No other comments.
III. Collection
There are two ways the citizens may pay their taxes. Send them directly to the Roman Treasury, or send them to the Provincial Praetor during the tax gathering period of the months of Sextilis to Novemberes. The amount must be in US dollars. Therefore, Non US provinces will have to convert the money into a money order. American Express seems to be the cheapest way to do this, and this is why the Provincial Praetor should be the collector. Once the taxes have been gathered, this officer can convert these into a single Money Order to be sent to the Roman Treasury. Praetors will authorized to take the conversation charge for the money order from the tax sum. Praetors will also be authorized to retain 10% of the gathered taxes to compensate for their trouble. (As this will involve some work.) Non US provincial citizens who do not wish to send their tax to the Provincial Praetor (or there is no Praetor to send it to) will have to send it directly to the Roman Treasury. If the tax is sent during the months Sextilis to Novemberes the citizen will be authorized to take the Money Order cost from the tax sum, to encourage timely compliance. If after the period the additional amount must be paid. (Consider it a penalty)
** Recommend you make it payable to a central treasury, not later than a certain date, in US funds. Many US-based international organizations do this. It's not your problem how to get the money to you. There is no need for the praetor to be a middle man.
** Who cares if it is an American Express Money Order? I live in Germania and can write you a check on a US bank. You want your money, that's all you need to say. Replace the whole paragraph with: "Citizens may pay their taxes by sending them directly to the Roman Treasury during the tax gathering period of the months of Sextilis to Novemberes. The amount must be in US funds." Also, if you want me to send you a check, you have to give me an address...this is the place to do that, or to say where it can be found.
IV. Tax Forgiveness.
A. New citizens entering Rome, are forgiven taxes (except sales) for the period of one year. They are considered members of Classes Primus until the year is completed. They then fall under the tax obligation.
** Good
B. Additional Tax forgiveness
There are certain Eastern Provinces that may not be able to pay the decreed tax. Those Provinces' Praetors may petition the Senate to ask for tax forgiveness. The Senate then may decree a smaller amount, or no amount at all. It is hoped that the Senate would never decree no amount as it would set a bad precedent. While all our Provincial Praetors are good people, there is always the chance that temptation will strike and the Praetor not send the money forward, keeping it for himself. If this would happen, those citizens in that province would be given tax forgiveness for that year. Rome would have to deal with the treacherous Praetor. Tax forgiveness may also be extended by the Senate to provinces for reasons that would be germane at the time. (Natural Disasters, Military Coups, etc.)
** This should probably be two paragraphs, one of tax relief for impoverished provinces, and one for thieving praetors.
** Better still, get rid of the part about "certain Eastern provinces." (Were I in the middle of a coup, I would have more to worry about than whether it was legal for me to be a magistrate.)
** Change the whole paragraph to read: "Tax forgiveness may be extended by the Senate for reasons that would be germane at the time."
V. Implementing:
This is a large step for Rome, but one that must be taken if we are to move on in our quest to become a true micro nation with a GNP.
** "As normal?" Have you been collecting taxes in that province? Am I reading this right, that you are looking for a province to volunteer to pay dues when no others due?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
**I hope the authors of the original draft law will understand that my comments are meant to increase the glory of Rome, not to attack the Senate, or any NR person or persons. My comments are intended to be constructive. Where they are not, I apologize for the offense,and plead poor wording on my part.
Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839
"Statistics show that married men live longer than single men, but they are more willing to die." -- Anonymous
---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All with one Wallet.
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---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Tax Law |
| From: |
Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 6 Nov 2000 02:27:02 -0800 (PST) |
|
Salve!
Below is the tax plan as presented on the NR List. While I think it is a good idea, there are some bugs to work out.
First of all, there is the term "tax." If we are a nation, it is the correct term. If we are a club, then use "dues". What is not resolved in many people's minds is which category we fit into. I'd stick with "tax."
I. The Amount
The amount of the tax will be set by the Senate. Suggest it should be between 25-20 dollars US. These amounts will give the Treasury some status, and still be affordable by most people.
If the Senate wishes to set a tax on a province by province basis that would be fine as well, though it would appear that standardizing works best. This amount may be raised or lowered depending on Rome's financial situation at the start of each fiscal year.
**No problem with the amount -- the amount seems reasonable, but don't like that it can be changed every year. Fix dues, then live within the budget. You can increase it, but that should be done by the Senate.
** Change the first lines to read: "The amount of the tax will be set $20 dollars, payable in US funds. NovaRoma is not responsible for cash sent by mail." Get rid of the rest of the paragraph.
** You're going to get some shock, since people are being asked to pay for what they have been doing for free. The population will drop...or people will move to Secundus status (which is where we all are now, pretty much).
II Requirements:
In order to obtain a GNP for the nation of Rome, the citizens will be taxed in the following manners.
A. The poll Tax:
The Roman citizen body will be divided into two parts. The Classes Primus and the Classes Secundus. These Classi are not determined by Gens or Class, they are determined by monetary contribution to Rome. Classes Primus are those who wish to be actively involved in Roman Politics including voting, and the holding of magistracies. In order to do so, they must have their taxes paid so they are in good standing. A citizen in good standing is called a member of the Classes Primus.
Citizens who simply want to be members of the various clubs, and attend Nova Roman functions and take advantage of Nova Roma's historical knowledge, are called Classes Secundus. The Classes Secundus are full citizens of Rome, they receive protection under Roman law and they are treated the same as the Classes Primus. However they may not stand for magistracies. They cannot vote. They may take part in debates, attend the chatroom, express their opinion in "public."
** OK
Those of the Classes Secundus may recover their good standing by paying only their current owed taxes. There will never be any back taxes that must be made up. Likewise the Classes Primus may become Classes Secundus by not paying their current taxes. They may recover good standing by paying their taxes later.
** This makes it seem that the Secundus are in arrears. In fact, it is a lesser citizenship. They are what the SCA calls "participants", vice members.
**Change the line to read: "Likewise the Classes Primus become Classes Secundus by failing to pay their current taxes."
B. The Sales Tax.
** <no personal interest in this.>
C. Emergency tax
The Roman State, (The Consuls & Senate) if in a Financial Crisis, may call on Senators, Patricians and Magistrates to contribute additional monies to the Treasury in addition to their tax. This contribution is entirely voluntary, and failure to meet it will not result in any reduction of status. There may be a drop in stature among their peers, however.
**Recommend the last line be removed, as it says nothing.
D. Donations
Donations to the Roman State are welcomed and encouraged. However such donations do not forgive the basic tax which will still have to paid.
**Should say "has to be paid."
II. Procedure.
** Should be "III" (others following also change), but that's minor. No other comments.
III. Collection
There are two ways the citizens may pay their taxes. Send them directly to the Roman Treasury, or send them to the Provincial Praetor during the tax gathering period of the months of Sextilis to Novemberes. The amount must be in US dollars. Therefore, Non US provinces will have to convert the money into a money order. American Express seems to be the cheapest way to do this, and this is why the Provincial Praetor should be the collector. Once the taxes have been gathered, this officer can convert these into a single Money Order to be sent to the Roman Treasury. Praetors will authorized to take the conversation charge for the money order from the tax sum. Praetors will also be authorized to retain 10% of the gathered taxes to compensate for their trouble. (As this will involve some work.) Non US provincial citizens who do not wish to send their tax to the Provincial Praetor (or there is no Praetor to send it to) will have to send it directly to the Roman Treasury. If the tax is sent during the months Sextilis to Novemberes the citizen will be authorized to take the Money Order cost from the tax sum, to encourage timely compliance. If after the period the additional amount must be paid. (Consider it a penalty)
** Recommend you make it payable to a central treasury, not later than a certain date, in US funds. Many US-based international organizations do this. It's not your problem how to get the money to you. There is no need for the praetor to be a middle man.
** Who cares if it is an American Express Money Order? I live in Germania and can write you a check on a US bank. You want your money, that's all you need to say. Replace the whole paragraph with: "Citizens may pay their taxes by sending them directly to the Roman Treasury during the tax gathering period of the months of Sextilis to Novemberes. The amount must be in US funds." Also, if you want me to send you a check, you have to give me an address...this is the place to do that, or to say where it can be found.
IV. Tax Forgiveness.
A. New citizens entering Rome, are forgiven taxes (except sales) for the period of one year. They are considered members of Classes Primus until the year is completed. They then fall under the tax obligation.
** Good
B. Additional Tax forgiveness
There are certain Eastern Provinces that may not be able to pay the decreed tax. Those Provinces' Praetors may petition the Senate to ask for tax forgiveness. The Senate then may decree a smaller amount, or no amount at all. It is hoped that the Senate would never decree no amount as it would set a bad precedent. While all our Provincial Praetors are good people, there is always the chance that temptation will strike and the Praetor not send the money forward, keeping it for himself. If this would happen, those citizens in that province would be given tax forgiveness for that year. Rome would have to deal with the treacherous Praetor. Tax forgiveness may also be extended by the Senate to provinces for reasons that would be germane at the time. (Natural Disasters, Military Coups, etc.)
** This should probably be two paragraphs, one of tax relief for impoverished provinces, and one for thieving praetors.
** Better still, get rid of the part about "certain Eastern provinces." (Were I in the middle of a coup, I would have more to worry about than whether it was legal for me to be a magistrate.)
** Change the whole paragraph to read: "Tax forgiveness may be extended by the Senate for reasons that would be germane at the time."
V. Implementing:
This is a large step for Rome, but one that must be taken if we are to move on in our quest to become a true micro nation with a GNP.
** "As normal?" Have you been collecting taxes in that province? Am I reading this right, that you are looking for a province to volunteer to pay dues when no others due?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
**I hope the authors of the original draft law will understand that my comments are meant to increase the glory of Rome, not to attack the Senate, or any NR person or persons. My comments are intended to be constructive. Where they are not, I apologize for the offense,and plead poor wording on my part.
Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839
"Statistics show that married men live longer than single men, but they are more willing to die." -- Anonymous
---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All with one Wallet.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
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---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Tax Law |
| From: |
Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 6 Nov 2000 02:27:03 -0800 (PST) |
|
Salve!
Below is the tax plan as presented on the NR List. While I think it is a good idea, there are some bugs to work out.
First of all, there is the term "tax." If we are a nation, it is the correct term. If we are a club, then use "dues". What is not resolved in many people's minds is which category we fit into. I'd stick with "tax."
I. The Amount
The amount of the tax will be set by the Senate. Suggest it should be between 25-20 dollars US. These amounts will give the Treasury some status, and still be affordable by most people.
If the Senate wishes to set a tax on a province by province basis that would be fine as well, though it would appear that standardizing works best. This amount may be raised or lowered depending on Rome's financial situation at the start of each fiscal year.
**No problem with the amount -- the amount seems reasonable, but don't like that it can be changed every year. Fix dues, then live within the budget. You can increase it, but that should be done by the Senate.
** Change the first lines to read: "The amount of the tax will be set $20 dollars, payable in US funds. NovaRoma is not responsible for cash sent by mail." Get rid of the rest of the paragraph.
** You're going to get some shock, since people are being asked to pay for what they have been doing for free. The population will drop...or people will move to Secundus status (which is where we all are now, pretty much).
II Requirements:
In order to obtain a GNP for the nation of Rome, the citizens will be taxed in the following manners.
A. The poll Tax:
The Roman citizen body will be divided into two parts. The Classes Primus and the Classes Secundus. These Classi are not determined by Gens or Class, they are determined by monetary contribution to Rome. Classes Primus are those who wish to be actively involved in Roman Politics including voting, and the holding of magistracies. In order to do so, they must have their taxes paid so they are in good standing. A citizen in good standing is called a member of the Classes Primus.
Citizens who simply want to be members of the various clubs, and attend Nova Roman functions and take advantage of Nova Roma's historical knowledge, are called Classes Secundus. The Classes Secundus are full citizens of Rome, they receive protection under Roman law and they are treated the same as the Classes Primus. However they may not stand for magistracies. They cannot vote. They may take part in debates, attend the chatroom, express their opinion in "public."
** OK
Those of the Classes Secundus may recover their good standing by paying only their current owed taxes. There will never be any back taxes that must be made up. Likewise the Classes Primus may become Classes Secundus by not paying their current taxes. They may recover good standing by paying their taxes later.
** This makes it seem that the Secundus are in arrears. In fact, it is a lesser citizenship. They are what the SCA calls "participants", vice members.
**Change the line to read: "Likewise the Classes Primus become Classes Secundus by failing to pay their current taxes."
B. The Sales Tax.
** <no personal interest in this.>
C. Emergency tax
The Roman State, (The Consuls & Senate) if in a Financial Crisis, may call on Senators, Patricians and Magistrates to contribute additional monies to the Treasury in addition to their tax. This contribution is entirely voluntary, and failure to meet it will not result in any reduction of status. There may be a drop in stature among their peers, however.
**Recommend the last line be removed, as it says nothing.
D. Donations
Donations to the Roman State are welcomed and encouraged. However such donations do not forgive the basic tax which will still have to paid.
**Should say "has to be paid."
II. Procedure.
** Should be "III" (others following also change), but that's minor. No other comments.
III. Collection
There are two ways the citizens may pay their taxes. Send them directly to the Roman Treasury, or send them to the Provincial Praetor during the tax gathering period of the months of Sextilis to Novemberes. The amount must be in US dollars. Therefore, Non US provinces will have to convert the money into a money order. American Express seems to be the cheapest way to do this, and this is why the Provincial Praetor should be the collector. Once the taxes have been gathered, this officer can convert these into a single Money Order to be sent to the Roman Treasury. Praetors will authorized to take the conversation charge for the money order from the tax sum. Praetors will also be authorized to retain 10% of the gathered taxes to compensate for their trouble. (As this will involve some work.) Non US provincial citizens who do not wish to send their tax to the Provincial Praetor (or there is no Praetor to send it to) will have to send it directly to the Roman Treasury. If the tax is sent during the months Sextilis to Novemberes the citizen will be authorized to take the Money Order cost from the tax sum, to encourage timely compliance. If after the period the additional amount must be paid. (Consider it a penalty)
** Recommend you make it payable to a central treasury, not later than a certain date, in US funds. Many US-based international organizations do this. It's not your problem how to get the money to you. There is no need for the praetor to be a middle man.
** Who cares if it is an American Express Money Order? I live in Germania and can write you a check on a US bank. You want your money, that's all you need to say. Replace the whole paragraph with: "Citizens may pay their taxes by sending them directly to the Roman Treasury during the tax gathering period of the months of Sextilis to Novemberes. The amount must be in US funds." Also, if you want me to send you a check, you have to give me an address...this is the place to do that, or to say where it can be found.
IV. Tax Forgiveness.
A. New citizens entering Rome, are forgiven taxes (except sales) for the period of one year. They are considered members of Classes Primus until the year is completed. They then fall under the tax obligation.
** Good
B. Additional Tax forgiveness
There are certain Eastern Provinces that may not be able to pay the decreed tax. Those Provinces' Praetors may petition the Senate to ask for tax forgiveness. The Senate then may decree a smaller amount, or no amount at all. It is hoped that the Senate would never decree no amount as it would set a bad precedent. While all our Provincial Praetors are good people, there is always the chance that temptation will strike and the Praetor not send the money forward, keeping it for himself. If this would happen, those citizens in that province would be given tax forgiveness for that year. Rome would have to deal with the treacherous Praetor. Tax forgiveness may also be extended by the Senate to provinces for reasons that would be germane at the time. (Natural Disasters, Military Coups, etc.)
** This should probably be two paragraphs, one of tax relief for impoverished provinces, and one for thieving praetors.
** Better still, get rid of the part about "certain Eastern provinces." (Were I in the middle of a coup, I would have more to worry about than whether it was legal for me to be a magistrate.)
** Change the whole paragraph to read: "Tax forgiveness may be extended by the Senate for reasons that would be germane at the time."
V. Implementing:
This is a large step for Rome, but one that must be taken if we are to move on in our quest to become a true micro nation with a GNP.
** "As normal?" Have you been collecting taxes in that province? Am I reading this right, that you are looking for a province to volunteer to pay dues when no others due?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
**I hope the authors of the original draft law will understand that my comments are meant to increase the glory of Rome, not to attack the Senate, or any NR person or persons. My comments are intended to be constructive. Where they are not, I apologize for the offense,and plead poor wording on my part.
Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839
"Statistics show that married men live longer than single men, but they are more willing to die." -- Anonymous
---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All with one Wallet.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
eLerts
It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
http://click.egroups.com/1/9699/3/_/61050/_/973506423/
---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Tax Law |
| From: |
Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 6 Nov 2000 02:27:25 -0800 (PST) |
|
Salve!
Below is the tax plan as presented on the NR List. While I think it is a good idea, there are some bugs to work out.
First of all, there is the term "tax." If we are a nation, it is the correct term. If we are a club, then use "dues". What is not resolved in many people's minds is which category we fit into. I'd stick with "tax."
I. The Amount
The amount of the tax will be set by the Senate. Suggest it should be between 25-20 dollars US. These amounts will give the Treasury some status, and still be affordable by most people.
If the Senate wishes to set a tax on a province by province basis that would be fine as well, though it would appear that standardizing works best. This amount may be raised or lowered depending on Rome's financial situation at the start of each fiscal year.
**No problem with the amount -- the amount seems reasonable, but don't like that it can be changed every year. Fix dues, then live within the budget. You can increase it, but that should be done by the Senate.
** Change the first lines to read: "The amount of the tax will be set $20 dollars, payable in US funds. NovaRoma is not responsible for cash sent by mail." Get rid of the rest of the paragraph.
** You're going to get some shock, since people are being asked to pay for what they have been doing for free. The population will drop...or people will move to Secundus status (which is where we all are now, pretty much).
II Requirements:
In order to obtain a GNP for the nation of Rome, the citizens will be taxed in the following manners.
A. The poll Tax:
The Roman citizen body will be divided into two parts. The Classes Primus and the Classes Secundus. These Classi are not determined by Gens or Class, they are determined by monetary contribution to Rome. Classes Primus are those who wish to be actively involved in Roman Politics including voting, and the holding of magistracies. In order to do so, they must have their taxes paid so they are in good standing. A citizen in good standing is called a member of the Classes Primus.
Citizens who simply want to be members of the various clubs, and attend Nova Roman functions and take advantage of Nova Roma's historical knowledge, are called Classes Secundus. The Classes Secundus are full citizens of Rome, they receive protection under Roman law and they are treated the same as the Classes Primus. However they may not stand for magistracies. They cannot vote. They may take part in debates, attend the chatroom, express their opinion in "public."
** OK
Those of the Classes Secundus may recover their good standing by paying only their current owed taxes. There will never be any back taxes that must be made up. Likewise the Classes Primus may become Classes Secundus by not paying their current taxes. They may recover good standing by paying their taxes later.
** This makes it seem that the Secundus are in arrears. In fact, it is a lesser citizenship. They are what the SCA calls "participants", vice members.
**Change the line to read: "Likewise the Classes Primus become Classes Secundus by failing to pay their current taxes."
B. The Sales Tax.
** <no personal interest in this.>
C. Emergency tax
The Roman State, (The Consuls & Senate) if in a Financial Crisis, may call on Senators, Patricians and Magistrates to contribute additional monies to the Treasury in addition to their tax. This contribution is entirely voluntary, and failure to meet it will not result in any reduction of status. There may be a drop in stature among their peers, however.
**Recommend the last line be removed, as it says nothing.
D. Donations
Donations to the Roman State are welcomed and encouraged. However such donations do not forgive the basic tax which will still have to paid.
**Should say "has to be paid."
II. Procedure.
** Should be "III" (others following also change), but that's minor. No other comments.
III. Collection
There are two ways the citizens may pay their taxes. Send them directly to the Roman Treasury, or send them to the Provincial Praetor during the tax gathering period of the months of Sextilis to Novemberes. The amount must be in US dollars. Therefore, Non US provinces will have to convert the money into a money order. American Express seems to be the cheapest way to do this, and this is why the Provincial Praetor should be the collector. Once the taxes have been gathered, this officer can convert these into a single Money Order to be sent to the Roman Treasury. Praetors will authorized to take the conversation charge for the money order from the tax sum. Praetors will also be authorized to retain 10% of the gathered taxes to compensate for their trouble. (As this will involve some work.) Non US provincial citizens who do not wish to send their tax to the Provincial Praetor (or there is no Praetor to send it to) will have to send it directly to the Roman Treasury. If the tax is sent during the months Sextilis to Novemberes the citizen will be authorized to take the Money Order cost from the tax sum, to encourage timely compliance. If after the period the additional amount must be paid. (Consider it a penalty)
** Recommend you make it payable to a central treasury, not later than a certain date, in US funds. Many US-based international organizations do this. It's not your problem how to get the money to you. There is no need for the praetor to be a middle man.
** Who cares if it is an American Express Money Order? I live in Germania and can write you a check on a US bank. You want your money, that's all you need to say. Replace the whole paragraph with: "Citizens may pay their taxes by sending them directly to the Roman Treasury during the tax gathering period of the months of Sextilis to Novemberes. The amount must be in US funds." Also, if you want me to send you a check, you have to give me an address...this is the place to do that, or to say where it can be found.
IV. Tax Forgiveness.
A. New citizens entering Rome, are forgiven taxes (except sales) for the period of one year. They are considered members of Classes Primus until the year is completed. They then fall under the tax obligation.
** Good
B. Additional Tax forgiveness
There are certain Eastern Provinces that may not be able to pay the decreed tax. Those Provinces' Praetors may petition the Senate to ask for tax forgiveness. The Senate then may decree a smaller amount, or no amount at all. It is hoped that the Senate would never decree no amount as it would set a bad precedent. While all our Provincial Praetors are good people, there is always the chance that temptation will strike and the Praetor not send the money forward, keeping it for himself. If this would happen, those citizens in that province would be given tax forgiveness for that year. Rome would have to deal with the treacherous Praetor. Tax forgiveness may also be extended by the Senate to provinces for reasons that would be germane at the time. (Natural Disasters, Military Coups, etc.)
** This should probably be two paragraphs, one of tax relief for impoverished provinces, and one for thieving praetors.
** Better still, get rid of the part about "certain Eastern provinces." (Were I in the middle of a coup, I would have more to worry about than whether it was legal for me to be a magistrate.)
** Change the whole paragraph to read: "Tax forgiveness may be extended by the Senate for reasons that would be germane at the time."
V. Implementing:
This is a large step for Rome, but one that must be taken if we are to move on in our quest to become a true micro nation with a GNP.
** "As normal?" Have you been collecting taxes in that province? Am I reading this right, that you are looking for a province to volunteer to pay dues when no others due?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
**I hope the authors of the original draft law will understand that my comments are meant to increase the glory of Rome, not to attack the Senate, or any NR person or persons. My comments are intended to be constructive. Where they are not, I apologize for the offense,and plead poor wording on my part.
Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839
"Statistics show that married men live longer than single men, but they are more willing to die." -- Anonymous
---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All with one Wallet.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
eGroups eLerts
It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
http://click.egroups.com/1/9698/3/_/61050/_/973506446/
---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Tax Law |
| From: |
Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 6 Nov 2000 02:27:26 -0800 (PST) |
|
Salve!
Below is the tax plan as presented on the NR List. While I think it is a good idea, there are some bugs to work out.
First of all, there is the term "tax." If we are a nation, it is the correct term. If we are a club, then use "dues". What is not resolved in many people's minds is which category we fit into. I'd stick with "tax."
I. The Amount
The amount of the tax will be set by the Senate. Suggest it should be between 25-20 dollars US. These amounts will give the Treasury some status, and still be affordable by most people.
If the Senate wishes to set a tax on a province by province basis that would be fine as well, though it would appear that standardizing works best. This amount may be raised or lowered depending on Rome's financial situation at the start of each fiscal year.
**No problem with the amount -- the amount seems reasonable, but don't like that it can be changed every year. Fix dues, then live within the budget. You can increase it, but that should be done by the Senate.
** Change the first lines to read: "The amount of the tax will be set $20 dollars, payable in US funds. NovaRoma is not responsible for cash sent by mail." Get rid of the rest of the paragraph.
** You're going to get some shock, since people are being asked to pay for what they have been doing for free. The population will drop...or people will move to Secundus status (which is where we all are now, pretty much).
II Requirements:
In order to obtain a GNP for the nation of Rome, the citizens will be taxed in the following manners.
A. The poll Tax:
The Roman citizen body will be divided into two parts. The Classes Primus and the Classes Secundus. These Classi are not determined by Gens or Class, they are determined by monetary contribution to Rome. Classes Primus are those who wish to be actively involved in Roman Politics including voting, and the holding of magistracies. In order to do so, they must have their taxes paid so they are in good standing. A citizen in good standing is called a member of the Classes Primus.
Citizens who simply want to be members of the various clubs, and attend Nova Roman functions and take advantage of Nova Roma's historical knowledge, are called Classes Secundus. The Classes Secundus are full citizens of Rome, they receive protection under Roman law and they are treated the same as the Classes Primus. However they may not stand for magistracies. They cannot vote. They may take part in debates, attend the chatroom, express their opinion in "public."
** OK
Those of the Classes Secundus may recover their good standing by paying only their current owed taxes. There will never be any back taxes that must be made up. Likewise the Classes Primus may become Classes Secundus by not paying their current taxes. They may recover good standing by paying their taxes later.
** This makes it seem that the Secundus are in arrears. In fact, it is a lesser citizenship. They are what the SCA calls "participants", vice members.
**Change the line to read: "Likewise the Classes Primus become Classes Secundus by failing to pay their current taxes."
B. The Sales Tax.
** <no personal interest in this.>
C. Emergency tax
The Roman State, (The Consuls & Senate) if in a Financial Crisis, may call on Senators, Patricians and Magistrates to contribute additional monies to the Treasury in addition to their tax. This contribution is entirely voluntary, and failure to meet it will not result in any reduction of status. There may be a drop in stature among their peers, however.
**Recommend the last line be removed, as it says nothing.
D. Donations
Donations to the Roman State are welcomed and encouraged. However such donations do not forgive the basic tax which will still have to paid.
**Should say "has to be paid."
II. Procedure.
** Should be "III" (others following also change), but that's minor. No other comments.
III. Collection
There are two ways the citizens may pay their taxes. Send them directly to the Roman Treasury, or send them to the Provincial Praetor during the tax gathering period of the months of Sextilis to Novemberes. The amount must be in US dollars. Therefore, Non US provinces will have to convert the money into a money order. American Express seems to be the cheapest way to do this, and this is why the Provincial Praetor should be the collector. Once the taxes have been gathered, this officer can convert these into a single Money Order to be sent to the Roman Treasury. Praetors will authorized to take the conversation charge for the money order from the tax sum. Praetors will also be authorized to retain 10% of the gathered taxes to compensate for their trouble. (As this will involve some work.) Non US provincial citizens who do not wish to send their tax to the Provincial Praetor (or there is no Praetor to send it to) will have to send it directly to the Roman Treasury. If the tax is sent during the months Sextilis to Novemberes the citizen will be authorized to take the Money Order cost from the tax sum, to encourage timely compliance. If after the period the additional amount must be paid. (Consider it a penalty)
** Recommend you make it payable to a central treasury, not later than a certain date, in US funds. Many US-based international organizations do this. It's not your problem how to get the money to you. There is no need for the praetor to be a middle man.
** Who cares if it is an American Express Money Order? I live in Germania and can write you a check on a US bank. You want your money, that's all you need to say. Replace the whole paragraph with: "Citizens may pay their taxes by sending them directly to the Roman Treasury during the tax gathering period of the months of Sextilis to Novemberes. The amount must be in US funds." Also, if you want me to send you a check, you have to give me an address...this is the place to do that, or to say where it can be found.
IV. Tax Forgiveness.
A. New citizens entering Rome, are forgiven taxes (except sales) for the period of one year. They are considered members of Classes Primus until the year is completed. They then fall under the tax obligation.
** Good
B. Additional Tax forgiveness
There are certain Eastern Provinces that may not be able to pay the decreed tax. Those Provinces' Praetors may petition the Senate to ask for tax forgiveness. The Senate then may decree a smaller amount, or no amount at all. It is hoped that the Senate would never decree no amount as it would set a bad precedent. While all our Provincial Praetors are good people, there is always the chance that temptation will strike and the Praetor not send the money forward, keeping it for himself. If this would happen, those citizens in that province would be given tax forgiveness for that year. Rome would have to deal with the treacherous Praetor. Tax forgiveness may also be extended by the Senate to provinces for reasons that would be germane at the time. (Natural Disasters, Military Coups, etc.)
** This should probably be two paragraphs, one of tax relief for impoverished provinces, and one for thieving praetors.
** Better still, get rid of the part about "certain Eastern provinces." (Were I in the middle of a coup, I would have more to worry about than whether it was legal for me to be a magistrate.)
** Change the whole paragraph to read: "Tax forgiveness may be extended by the Senate for reasons that would be germane at the time."
V. Implementing:
This is a large step for Rome, but one that must be taken if we are to move on in our quest to become a true micro nation with a GNP.
** "As normal?" Have you been collecting taxes in that province? Am I reading this right, that you are looking for a province to volunteer to pay dues when no others due?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
**I hope the authors of the original draft law will understand that my comments are meant to increase the glory of Rome, not to attack the Senate, or any NR person or persons. My comments are intended to be constructive. Where they are not, I apologize for the offense,and plead poor wording on my part.
Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] multiple posts |
| From: |
Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 6 Nov 2000 02:29:03 -0800 (PST) |
|
Sorry for the multiple posts. 'Puter is acting up.
L A D
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Taxs vs Voting |
| From: |
Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 6 Nov 2000 03:03:50 -0800 (PST) |
|
Salvete!
OK, I'm going to get beat up on this one, but I've got to say it.
A lot of people are saying that voting rights should not be tied to tax-paying.
My feeling is that if you are sufficiently politically-conscious to vote, you should be sufficiently politically-conscious to pay $20. If you just can't squeeze it out of your wallet, there are options. Your province can raise money together to collectively pay dues (hold a car wash, host a dinner, get a grant). I sponsor a scholarship in the SCA, by which means I pay the membership dues of someone who writes a paper on heraldry, to be published on the kingdom email list. I'm sure someone can do the same thing here. If your province is financially-stricken, then you can ask the Senate for relief from taxes. The way I read it, that makes you a First-Class citizen without paying.
I also want to say that I support the various graduated tax rates and the idea of governmental fund-raising (e.g. website advertising, so long as it is tasteful). There should also be a chart for those who wish to pay more than the $20-25 now in discussion. Here is my suggestion:
$15 associate tax (amy vote, but not hold office)
$20 standard tax (not to exceed $35 per family)
$50 "Optio" Tax Rate (voluntary)
$75 "Centurio" Tax Rate (voluntary)
$100 "Primus Pilum" Tax Rate (voluntary)
** Feel free to correct my Latin.
The Optios, Centurios, and Primus Pilums should be listed on the website and thanked by the Senate for their generosity. Perhaps a few extra points could be awarded.
L A Dalmaticus
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] ATTENTION: PLEBEIANS |
| From: |
Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 6 Nov 2000 03:07:26 -0800 (PST) |
|
Salvete!
This is a great idea. I would propose that there be a "persona-play area". Where I can enter as Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus, as he was in ancient Rome.
Please keep us all up to date as this idea develops.
L A D
dougies@-------- wrote:
Ave quirite et pater conscript,
I am posting this message in the hope that you (plebeians) will all
write to me with your opinions and so forth on the topic.
I have been considering the idea of creating a chat room to act as a
sort of a Comitia Plebis. The reason for this is that the main list is
becoming crowded with debates, the normal citizens have little
interaction (other than reading the main list dispatches), and it is a
long process trying to get the ideas of everyone heard. Please write to me you ideas or opinions about this. They will be
greatly appreciated.
Ave, atque, vale for now,
Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Taxation |
| From: |
"pjane@-------- " <pjane@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 06 Nov 2000 12:46:24 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <
germa--------s@--------> wrote:
> The
> last I knew, we were not running a deficit.
We are not. Nova Roma's treasury is not losing money and has sufficient
resources on hand to meet operating expenses for some time.
Patricia Cassia
Quaestor (treasurer)
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Roman Way, Reprise: |
| From: |
"Caius Fabius" <SPQR_HQ@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 06 Nov 2000 13:29:10 GMT |
|
I think some of us understand the way of ancient Roma, and some should do
some more research into the way of life we are trying to revive. I do not
mean to orate to the chorus, nor do I intend to offend you.
That being said:
You have forgotten the basis upon which all Roman life, politics and
existance turned. Patronage. The Patron Client relationship was often more
important than the Gens! The Patron Client relationship was the reason Rome
worked as it did.
If you cannot afford to pay your taxes, you should seek a patron who
will help you, and then you should support them with your vote or support
when they have something that matters to them.
I am still in favor of graduated taxation, or additional fees for
privaledge. These fees would support the expenses of the Nova Roma
organization. If you are working as an officer and putting your own moneis
into approved equipments and expenses, you should get credit for these
expenditures against your taxes.
Now for realistic fees:
Patrician Senators $500.00 (USD) per annum
Plebian Senators $100.00 (USD) per annum
Active Merchant Equites $100.00 per annum
Patrician Equites $75.00 per annum
Plebian Equites $50.00 per annum
Citizens $10.00 per annum
urban tribes (head count)$ 1.00 per annum
The year starts on the 1st of March.
These are NOVA ROMA fees and taxes, a head tax or whatever, hen add local
fees as decided necessary to the running of each province. If you have
students or others who cannot pay, then the patron pays their fees, and the
clients support their patron. You cnhave a patron from a different gens or
province!
If you want actual Roman interaction and role-play, this would be a good way
to generate it.
Caius Fabius
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Book help |
| From: |
"Scott Cozad" <mystic@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 6 Nov 2000 08:30:44 -0500 |
|
I was hoping someone on this list could point me in the direction of some
book(s) on Roman trade with the Germanic tribes. Of particular interest to
me is between 300BC and 200AD. Thanks in advance.
Marcus Alabus Thule
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Taxation: Some More Thoughts |
| From: |
"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 06 Nov 2000 15:37:02 GMT |
|
Salvete Omnes:
Is there enough money in the current treasury for the reimbursement of
expenses incurred by magistrates in the execution of their duties? I feel
that those who put alot of time into fulfilling their responsibilities
should get a sum, which, plus or minus a few dollars, would cover their
expenses. This could be a schedule established by the Senate, according to
the actual magistracy concerned: Consuls and Active Senators, so much per
year, Censors so much, either a one or two year allotment for them, and so
forth.
Indeed little expenses do add up over a year......I for one, do not mind
paying a nominal tax to help offset this, plus have some money on hand for
future projects for Nova Roma.
I am in favour of the methods of establishing tax amounts, its collection as
outlined by Consul Fabius' proposal.
I am pleased that the Consuls and Senate have amended the Tax code to allow
ALL citizens to vote :) It is just a strong item of principle to me, that
this privilege should not be withheld completely. Besides, I feel that, for
many, not being able to run for office is incentive enough for one to pay
his/her taxes. This is in keeping with Roma Antiquita, Quirites, no?
Re: graduated taxation schedules for Senator,Praetor, Citizen, etc. Umm...
getting people to agree to very high amounts at the outset would be an
accomplishment in itself. Also, someone could well have the cash in hand to
become a Senator, but having money in itself doesn't always mean that you
have the ethics or cognitive ability to render sound decisions beneficial to
the Republic.
I will quit and get back to work now, OK?
Bene vale,
Pompeia
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Roman Way, Reprise: |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 6 Nov 2000 10:21:49 -0600 (CST) |
|
Salve Cai Fabi,
> The Patron Client relationship was the reason Rome worked as it did.
> If you cannot afford to pay your taxes, you should seek a patron who
> will help you, and then you should support them with your vote or support
> when they have something that matters to them.
Excellent idea! This is a historically faithful way for everyone to
take part in contributing to the state, even if they have no income. Also,
by allowing clients and patrons to select each other regardless of
gens affiliation, no burden is placed upon patresfamilias who might not
have a lot of money.... they'll merely have to advise their gentiles
to seek a patron elsewhere.
> Now for realistic fees:
> Patrician Senators $500.00 (USD) per annum
This is not realistic. Senators don't make more than citizens in general,
and most would have considerable difficulty paying this amount. Even if
they sought patrons to help with the payment, each Senator would probably
have to enter into the clientage of twenty or more citizens simultaneously-
and I've never heard of a client having more than one patron at once.
> Plebian Senators $100.00 (USD) per annum
This is more reasonable, but some might still feel it is high.
Why the difference between Patrician and Plebeian? Patricians have no
special rights or powers that plebeians do not have. (Indeed, the
opposite is the case, considering the powers of the office of the
Tribunes).
> Citizens $10.00 per annum
This is too low. You're asking for almost all of the money to be
contributed by a small handful of citizens - those who are already
doing most of the work. With your plan, over half of the treasury
would come from the pockets of less than twenty citizens.
If Senators are taxed at $500 each, none of them will be able
to afford to take on any clients.
> These are NOVA ROMA fees and taxes, a head tax or whatever, hen add local
> fees as decided necessary to the running of each province. If you have
> students or others who cannot pay, then the patron pays their fees, and the
> clients support their patron. You cnhave a patron from a different gens or
> province!
I do like your patronage idea though. It solves our taxation problem
in a historically accurate way.
Vale, O.
--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
Microsoft delenda est!
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Roman Way, Reprise: |
| From: |
<gmvick32@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 06 Nov 2000 09:36:41 -0700 |
|
Caius Fabius wrote:
> You have forgotten the basis upon which all Roman life, politics and
> existance turned. Patronage. The Patron Client relationship was often more
> important than the Gens! The Patron Client relationship was the reason Rome
> worked as it did.
Actually, the general sentiment has been to discourage the Patron-Client
relationship inside Nova Roma as anathema to many. I can support the idea of
one person voluntarily sponsoring another's taxes, but with no strings
attached. Does this make me uneducated in the Roman Way?? NO
> I am still in favor of graduated taxation, or additional fees for
> privaledge. These fees would support the expenses of the Nova Roma
> organization. If you are working as an officer and putting your own moneis
> into approved equipments and expenses, you should get credit for these
> expenditures against your taxes.
Hmm, interesting concept and it could be worth going forward that way. I'll
admit, my hard-core business sense doesn't want to let go of the concept of
turning in expense account requests for justification of reimbursement.
> Now for realistic fees:
> Patrician Senators $500.00 (USD) per annum
> Plebian Senators $100.00 (USD) per annum
> Active Merchant Equites $100.00 per annum
> Patrician Equites $75.00 per annum
> Plebian Equites $50.00 per annum
> Citizens $10.00 per annum
> urban tribes (head count)$ 1.00 per annum
These are still unrealistic dollar amounts, inasmuch as our Senators are from
various walks of life. I understand your basic principle, and adherence to the
ancient Roman Way, and could easily support a similar structure. But I'm
telling you, we'd gut the Senate if we tried to enforce these numbers. And what
are the Conscript Fathers/Mothers to us, anyway?? In the case of Nova Roma,
it's a group of people who are foremost among us in trying to establish the
reality of Nova Roma. So you'd have their dedication and hard work pale in
comparison to their ability to pay $500?
Then too, what if you've got somebody existing in multiple categories??
How's this for a realistic breakdown?
Patrician Senators: $100 USD per annum
Plebian Senators: $75 USD per annum
Patrician Equities: $50 USD per annum
Plebian Equities: $35 USD per annum
Citizens: $variable by province, not to exceed 20 USD per annum
And for the Ordo Equestor, a one-time registration fee for their business of
$25, plus sales tax not to exceed 10%.
> If you want actual Roman interaction and role-play, this would be a good way
> to generate it.
Oh, I disagree!!! I don't want the doings of my regio to exist because they are
all toadying for my (or another's) financial sponsorship.
Livia Cornelia Aurelia
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Tax Law |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 6 Nov 2000 10:33:29 -0600 (CST) |
|
>
> First of all, there is the term "tax." If we are a nation, it is the
> correct term. If we are a club, then use "dues".
For official documents, we should use "dues" -- if we call it a "tax" we
might run into problems with the IRS or other government entities.
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
Microsoft delenda est!
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Roman Way, Reprise: |
| From: |
"Caius Fabius" <SPQR_HQ@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 06 Nov 2000 16:54:40 GMT |
|
It seems that some Nova Roma players really want to play a fantasy Rome or
something else, and some want to play more Roman. On of the parts of Roman
Patronage was the ability to have multiple patrons! A client might have
more than one patron. A patron had more than one client, if he could afford
it. The whole of ROMAN SOCIETY was based on the Patron-Client relationship.
Much of the Roman RELIGION was also based on the Patron Client
relationship, your diety was your PATRON. I seem to be confused, trying to
force people to become Romantic, when they want to be Romanced in a fantasy.
Mea Culpa. Fantasy Rome, Salvate!
I shall stop.
Caius Fabius
In response to this :
>Actually, the general sentiment has been to discourage the Patron-Client
>relationship inside Nova Roma as anathema to many. I can support the idea
>of
>one person voluntarily sponsoring another's taxes, but with no strings
>attached. Does this make me uneducated in the Roman Way?? NO
>
>>Oh, I disagree!!! I don't want the doings of my regio to exist because
>>they are
>all toadying for my (or another's) financial sponsorship.
>
>Livia Cornelia Aurelia
>
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Taxation |
| From: |
<gmvick32@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 06 Nov 2000 10:11:45 -0700 |
|
"pjane@--------" wrote:
> --- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <
> germa--------s@--------> wrote:
> > The
> > last I knew, we were not running a deficit.
>
> We are not. Nova Roma's treasury is not losing money and has sufficient
> resources on hand to meet operating expenses for some time.
>
> Patricia Cassia
> Quaestor (treasurer)
Based on the posted Treasury Reports, at surface this appears true and that
as of the end of the Second Quarter 2000, Nova Roma has a whopping $1,250.55
surplus in liquid assets. However, that's based on a few facts about the
situation:
1. Marcus Octavius Germanicus is currently hosting the Nova Roma website
(and graciously agreeing to accomodate incipient Sodalitas websites) for
free to Nova Roma. Now, what if at some point in time he were unable to do
this for whatever reason?? I guarantee there will come a day when this
happens.
2. Marcus Cassius Julianus is providing printing costs of the Eagle, a
modest but excellent B&W newsletter, for free. Again, this is exceedingly
generous of him, but would he want to do that forever?? Or if we wanted to
move to a slick publication with 4-color and pictures? And didn't somebody
mention the prohibitive cost of shipping the Eagle internationally was
preventing them access to it?
3. Patricia Cassia is apparently paying the entire cost of the legally
registered Nova Roma address out of her own pocket. A modest sum, yes, but
still a donation of business expense funds.
4. Censor Sulla, at least, is not seeking reimbursements for any of his
business expenses incurred for Nova Roma. By his accounting, if he were to
seek reimbursement for the money he's spent out of pocket (around $400) that
would reduce the budget by 1/3. I'm sure Censor Merullus has out of pocket
expenses as well, as do the Consuls and others, which they should be
reimbursed for.
A note on that....this goodwill donation is very kind of the founding
members and Senators, and indeed in the spirit of the Roman Way as a way
that leading citizens provide public works to the masses. HOWEVER, we're in
year three, at least one of them is beginning to resent the impact to his
pocket, and what do we do if they decide to withdraw their financial support
next year?? Or five years from now? If endurance of Nova Roma is important,
we can't build on the goodwill donations of anybody as substitute for
regular flows into the coffers.
5. We are relying on the goodwill, research, and (hopefully macronationally
professional) knowledge of various cives in U.S. tax and corporate law and
sound accounting skills to handle all legal needs that arise in conjunction
with Nova Roma as a registered entity in the U.S. We pay no lawyer's
retainers, CPA's fees, etc., to make this fly. A small business in the U.S.
would normally consult with a CPA and might even need to consult with a
lawyer from time to time. For us, I'd say its a necessity given the
intersection between being a U.S. 401(c)(3) corp and a micronation.
6. FINALLY.....where are the scholarships, the archaeological dig
sponsorships, the building fund for that lovely dream of 108 acres of Forum
Romanum somewhere, etc.???? That's one primary thing that interested me in
Nova Roma. We aren't getting there on a treasury with $1,000-$2,000 in it
folks, and we aren't getting there under the current flows of revenue.
Livia Cornelia Aurelia
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Roman Way, Reprise: |
| From: |
<gmvick32@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 06 Nov 2000 10:20:21 -0700 |
|
This is not a deserved response to my post. I haven't seen many posts from you,
if you've seen mine you know I try to adhere to the Roman spirit as much as
possible. I'm interested in 'the Roman Way', and not in "fantasy Rome".
However, that said, one of the organizing principles here was to correct a
handful of the facets about ancient Roman life which we've come to recognize as
less desireable, such as the exclusion of women from citizenship and office, and
the holding of slaves. I believe the Client/Patron relationship approaches that
category.
Somebody else correct me if I'm wrong.
Livia Cornelia Aurelia
Caius Fabius wrote:
> It seems that some Nova Roma players really want to play a fantasy Rome or
> something else, and some want to play more Roman. On of the parts of Roman
> Patronage was the ability to have multiple patrons! A client might have
> more than one patron. A patron had more than one client, if he could afford
> it. The whole of ROMAN SOCIETY was based on the Patron-Client relationship.
> Much of the Roman RELIGION was also based on the Patron Client
> relationship, your diety was your PATRON. I seem to be confused, trying to
> force people to become Romantic, when they want to be Romanced in a fantasy.
> Mea Culpa. Fantasy Rome, Salvate!
>
> I shall stop.
>
> Caius Fabius
>
> In response to this :
>
> >Actually, the general sentiment has been to discourage the Patron-Client
> >relationship inside Nova Roma as anathema to many. I can support the idea
> >of
> >one person voluntarily sponsoring another's taxes, but with no strings
> >attached. Does this make me uneducated in the Roman Way?? NO
> >
> >>Oh, I disagree!!! I don't want the doings of my regio to exist because
> >>they are
> >all toadying for my (or another's) financial sponsorship.
> >
> >Livia Cornelia Aurelia
> >
>
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] thoughts on Romans |
| From: |
"Caius Fabius" <SPQR_HQ@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 06 Nov 2000 16:42:35 GMT |
|
Thank you for your comments, private and public.
The Patronage thing is very Roman.
The idea of Patrician Romans paying more than Plebian Romans is not. The
idea of Senators paying more than other orders is very Roman.
Right now, I understand that many people in this group are not wealthy, but
still.... For example, the over all dues to one of my organizations are $10,
but the local dues are $40, per year.
The question is what does the NOVA ROMA group do for it's members? What are
those services worth?
What additional privileges do senators recieve? What are these worth?
Caius Fabius
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Roman Way, Reprise: |
| From: |
labienus@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 6 Nov 2000 12:29:04 US/Central |
|
T Labienus Quiritbus S P D
First, I apologize if this message fails to add anything new to this
conversation. A collection of problems have conspired to keep me away from
Nova Roma for the last several days, and I have not had a chance to do more
than skim the 300 or so messages in my inbox.
> You have forgotten the basis upon which all Roman life, politics and
> existance turned. Patronage. The Patron Client relationship was often more
> important than the Gens! The Patron Client relationship was the reason Rome
> worked as it did.
One of the ongoing tensions in Nova Roma is found in the degree to which we
want to directly emulate our spiritual forebears, balanced by our modern
sensibilities and our desire to create an egalitarian society. To date, we
have almost universally decided that the patron-client relationship is not
desirable in a modern democracy (or republic, for those who prefer that term).
Certainly, I would rather have dedicated and intelligent people as magistrates,
rather than those who can simply buy enough votes. One way in which I deviate
from many of the ancients is that I do not believe that wealth necessarily
equates with personal worth.
> I am still in favor of graduated taxation, or additional fees for
> privaledge.
I do not mind this, though I strongly oppose any attempt to distinguish between
patricians and plebeians. Patricians are disadvantaged enough in Nova Roma;
for their 5 extra century points, they are not allowed to vote in one of the
comitia and cannot serve in several positions. To charge them more for fewer
privileges is ludicrous.
> Patrician Senators $500.00 (USD) per annum
> Plebian Senators $100.00 (USD) per annum
> Active Merchant Equites $100.00 per annum
> Patrician Equites $75.00 per annum
> Plebian Equites $50.00 per annum
> Citizens $10.00 per annum
> urban tribes (head count)$ 1.00 per annum
Others have criticized these numbers, and I agree with them. These are too
high. And, as I said before, patricians shouldn't pay more.
Also, on a marginally related subject, the practice of imposing taxes in flat
US rates seems incorrect to me. The average annual income of many Eastern
European countries' citizens is substantially lower than that of US citizens.
What is reasonable to someone in the US can be unaffordable to someone in, say,
the Czech Repbulic. I would rather see tax rates either set by propraetores
with Senate oversight, or by the Senate in terms of relative value (an annual
tax of three average meals in a moderately priced restaurant, for example)
which would then be interpreted by the propraetores.
I reiterate my argument to Dexippus the last time this issue was raised. If a
flat tax is applied, then poorer countries will provide fewer cives. If a
graduated tax is applied, then cives in poorer countries will each pay less.
In either case, the brunt of the tax burden will be shouldered by those in rich
countries. The second option is, however, more inclusive and therefore more
desirable.
> If you want actual Roman interaction and role-play, this would be a good way
> to generate it.
I am not particularly interested in getting Roman role-play out of Nova Roma,
actually. I would prefer a real, modern state based upon Romanitas.
Valete
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Roman Way, Reprise: |
| From: |
<gmvick32@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 06 Nov 2000 12:05:21 -0700 |
|
Salvete, Quirites
labienus@-------- wrote:
> > I am still in favor of graduated taxation, or additional fees for
> > privaledge.
>
> I do not mind this, though I strongly oppose any attempt to distinguish between
> patricians and plebeians. Patricians are disadvantaged enough in Nova Roma;
> for their 5 extra century points, they are not allowed to vote in one of the
> comitia and cannot serve in several positions. To charge them more for fewer
> privileges is ludicrous.
Good points Labienus, which I wasn't accounting for earlier. But in retrospect,
you're absolutely right. As far as I can tell, Patrician status in Nova Roma is
solely the result of who had a paterfamilias in the door at the beginning.
Patricians seem to get pressured from within to have a higher bar of "Romanitas",
but otherwise don't get a heck of a lot for their troubles, except at present more
Patricians than Plebians are Senators, which office I'd bet they'd say is payment
of a pound of flesh at times.
Therefore, I withdraw earlier suggestion of being amenable to Patrician vs. Plebian
tax amounts and side with Fortunatus that there should be no difference.
Which leads me to raise another point, more stridently......given the reality of
what we are, is it even fair to suggest that Senators would up-front pay more tax??
After all, they are paying a lot more time and effort on Nova Roma than the
majority of citizens will. The willingness to do that should count for something.
Speaking for myself, time is more precious than money. (Well, except right now
when I'm home bound for a spell.)
> Also, on a marginally related subject, the practice of imposing taxes in flat
> US rates seems incorrect to me. The average annual income of many Eastern
> European countries' citizens is substantially lower than that of US citizens.
> What is reasonable to someone in the US can be unaffordable to someone in, say,
> the Czech Repbulic. I would rather see tax rates either set by propraetores
> with Senate oversight, or by the Senate in terms of relative value (an annual
> tax of three average meals in a moderately priced restaurant, for example)
> which would then be interpreted by the propraetores.
>
> I reiterate my argument to Dexippus the last time this issue was raised. If a
> flat tax is applied, then poorer countries will provide fewer cives. If a
> graduated tax is applied, then cives in poorer countries will each pay less.
> In either case, the brunt of the tax burden will be shouldered by those in rich
> countries. The second option is, however, more inclusive and therefore more
> desirable.
Far from being off the point, this is the most succinct and lucid breakdown of
where we need to consider the differences in tax breakdown I think. And I like
Fortunatus' suggestion that the tax be somewhat equivalent to three moderate
dinners to the local cive.
Livia Cornelia Aurelia,
who continues arguing about taxes because we'll be paying according to SOMEBODY's
plan for a long time to come
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Taxes, Europe, continents |
| From: |
"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 6 Nov 2000 20:58:12 +0100 |
|
Salvete omnes,
In a private conversation with my frater Lucius, the issue of taxes was also raised, and a rather good point came up. Nova Roma is actually an American organization. Although I feel that everyone could pay a little to lower the burden of costs that the magistrates and the senatores are making right now on their own, if at least 1/3 of NR pays up, you'll have about 4000$ annually.... Of course you could say that this would be good to save, and to buy land with, eventually, but tell me, why should European cives (and those of other continents) pay up this full sum for results they'll never (or partially) get to see, because it's an American organization?
How about this proposal, that each tax-paying civis pays 10$ for the main organization, and 10$ for the provincial/continental organization? Thusly cives would have more the feeling that they'll fare better with the money they pay, and they'll get to see some closer-to-home results.
Valete
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
--**--
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Taxes, Europe, continents |
| From: |
<gmvick32@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 06 Nov 2000 13:20:35 -0700 |
|
That's a good point, Draco, but bear in mind these two thoughts:
1. There's nothing to prevent a province outside the U.S. from appropriating some share of the money to build inside their own province. Rather than think of one massive building project in one place, I think its more feasible to conceive that we'd have multiple smaller projects in varied locations someday. According to demand by local cives.
2. One stated goal is to set up scholarships/sponsorships of archaeological digs, etc. There's nothing to prevent cives outside the U.S. from seeking to benefit from those funds, either. In fact, I could make the argument that it's easier for cives in western and eastern Europe to conceivable vie for and make use of funds to participate in Roman-related archeological digs in the Mediterranean and other parts of Europe with minimal disruption to their lives.
Livia Cornelia Aurelia
"S. Apollonius Draco" wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> In a private conversation with my frater Lucius, the issue of taxes was also raised, and a rather good point came up. Nova Roma is actually an American organization. Although I feel that everyone could pay a little to lower the burden of costs that the magistrates and the senatores are making right now on their own, if at least 1/3 of NR pays up, you'll have about 4000$ annually.... Of course you could say that this would be good to save, and to buy land with, eventually, but tell me, why should European cives (and those of other continents) pay up this full sum for results they'll never (or partially) get to see, because it's an American organization?
>
> How about this proposal, that each tax-paying civis pays 10$ for the main organization, and 10$ for the provincial/continental organization? Thusly cives would have more the feeling that they'll fare better with the money they pay, and they'll get to see some closer-to-home results.
>
> Valete
> Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
> Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
> --**--
> There are no bad guys. Just disturbed guys.
> --**--
> Novaromain? Parlez-vous français? Cliquez ici!:
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> --**--
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): pridie Nonas Novembres (November 4th) |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 6 Nov 2000 20:28:43 -0000 |
|
Salvete omnes
Forgive me for not being available during weekend. Here is the religious
posting for November 4th.
Pax Deorum vobiscum
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex
**********************************************************************
This is one of the dies comitiales (C), when committees of citizens can vote
on political or criminal matters.
Today is the first day of the Ludi Plebeii in honour of Iuppiter. These
games were held between November and November 17. Entertainment such as
chariot racing was held in the Circus Maximus. The games were probably
established in 220 BC by Gaius Flaminius when was Censor. Only the Ludi
Romani were more important than these games. They were the responsibility of
the Aediles Plebis.
The month of November is sacred to Diana.
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Perligata |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 6 Nov 2000 14:51:45 -0600 (CST) |
|
A module has been created that modifies the Perl programming language
to use Latin grammar. A sample program:
#! /usr/local/bin/perl -w
use Lingua::Romana::Perligata;
maximum inquementum tum biguttam egresso scribe.
meo maximo vestibulo perlegamentum da.
da duo tum maximum conscribementa meis listis.
dum listis decapitamentum da nexto
fac sic
nextum tum novumversum scribe egresso.
lista sic hoc recidementum nextum cis vannementa da listis.
cis.
This module, and the syntax it enables, is decribed at:
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~damian/papers/HTML/Perligata.html
Vale, Octavius.
---
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
Microsoft delenda est!
http://www.graveyards.com/
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