Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Tax compromise
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" <c_marius_m@-------->
Date:	Mon, 6 Nov 2000 19:09:44 -0500

Salvete Q Fabi Maxime Consul et alii

I'm just about speechless too. I realize that you have put a great deal of
thought and effort into this proposal, and to entertain major changes to
your approach this way demonstrates a great deal of patience and fairness.
We are truly fortunate to have such hard working and just consules.

:
:Thus the ban against voting unless taxes are paid is stricken from the
:proposal.
:The Bi Classis system is likewise stricken.
:Unoffically, all you Provincial Praetors listen. You are to start
surveying
:your province and begin to get a fair idea of what your citizens can pay
:Rome.

Also, I believe that the propraetores must plan their activities in the
provinciae to estimate how much money they will need to effect their plans.
One of the drawbacks in most tax proposals that I have seen to date has been
the top-down orientation of each plan -- the central administration sets a
fixed tax for everyone, everywhere that does not correlate to what is
planned or happening on the ground in any provincia. Now that we are
beginning to see provincial budgets submitted to the Senate (for which I for
one am thankful to Propraetor Nicolaus Moravius Vado, the first, I believe,
to submit such a budget), we have a hope of being able to build a real
budget for Nova Roma that takes into account the real activities planned at
the local level. These two estimates -- an amount per capita feasible for
each citizen to pay, and an amount sufficient to cover the
provincia-specific agenda --
are vital data for the propraetores to furnish the Senate.

Beyond that, the Senate should, in my view, allocate funds equal to a
percentage of
provincia-based revenue for long-term investment. What this percentage
should be, and what
exactly are our long-term goals, are items that I hope the consules will
lead the Senate in discussing.

You are all
going to have to pay something, you are to make sure that
:it is not too much and most important, not to little. This information
will
:be collected and presented to the Senate. They will use this info to set
:your tax, dues, memberships, whatever.

:Now citizens, how are we going to insure compliance? There is a consensus
:that
:people standing for offices should have a tax status of "good standing." I
:agree. But how else? You all are very clever bunch of individuals, I will
:wait and see what you come up with.

We are very limited in our means of coercing each other to do anything,
paying taxes
is just one example. Above all, I would say that we need to elect enough
quaestores
to assign one to each propraetor. The quaestores will have to keep accurate
records of
tax payments for all citizens in their provinciae. This data can be used to
create both carrots and sticks.
One possible carrot would be recognition for payments in excess of the
provincial tax rate; the quaestores
could submit names of all individuals in the provincia who have exceeded the
tax obligation to the
curator araneae, who could post a complete list on the website once a year.
We could go a step further and
grant titles to people who reach a certain threshold, even, as has been
discussed so many times
in the past.

The obvious stick, in my mind, is that the quaestores, either directly or
via the propraetores, would submit
a list of those who fail to meet the tax obligation, to the censores. For
each year that a citizen fails to pay, the censores would substract 10
(perhaps) century points. Thus, failure to pay taxes would keep a citizen
from advancing to a higher class where his/her vote in the Comitia
Centuriata would carry greater weight.

I don't believe that we should cut voting rights off completely for
non-payment of taxes, but we could certainly limit the weight of non-paying
voters, quite easily, and in accordance with our voting system.

Valete

C Marius Merullus
Senator
Censor Suffectus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Taxes and Popular Assent
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Mon, 6 Nov 2000 23:51:05 +0100

Salvete omnes Quirites!

I would like to thank the senior Consul for dropping the idea of
denying votes to citizens and creating a two-tier scale of civil
rights. It would have been most unhealthy for Nova Roma.

We must be careful that in any case we do not dilute their remaining
votes unreasonably through the mechanism of tribal assignment - a
vote of no practical value for controlling events and protecting
one's interests is not all that meaningful.

My most important concern, however, is the quality of popular assent
to the amount and means of any possible taxation and to its
appropriation. In the United States Congress and in the U.K. and
other typical parliaments finance bills are seen as something that
should be matters for the Lower House, which is closer to the People.
And certainly the right to control taxation and the use of tax monies
is generally regarded as something that should be in the hands of the
People or those closely responsible to them.

In a Nova Roman context the Lower House of our polity is,
practically speaking, the Comitia - which are also the People. We had
another proposal before us from Cn. Tarquinius Caesar to give a our
knights special collaborative rights with the senate in the
budget-making procedure. He suggested:

1.1- The members of the Equestrian Order shall provide, in concert
with one or more of the Quaestors, advice in the form of a draft
national budget, other financial documents and statements, and
reports of a quarterly or greater frequency, to the Senate, and make
available such advice to elected magistrates at the Senate's
direction.

1.2- In advance of the Kalends of Martius, the Ordo Equester will
submit to the Senate a draft national budget, and participate, at
the Senate's discretion, in debate, consultations, and hearings with
elected magistrates to finalize the National budget as a reasonable,
well-balanced, and feasible fiscal plan.

If all the cives are in the end to be the revenue-providers, then
would it not be reasonable for *them* to have input in this manner?
(If the whole People were felt too unwieldy, perhaps this could be
done through the election of a Comitial Finance Committee from among
those who hold no other elected office and are not members of the
senate (as senators would already have a vote)).

This could be combined with requiring a Comita vote on any taxation
plan in terms of method and rates, and on any subsequent changes.

And natually any final budget each year should be approved by a
Comitia vote.

Putting budgetary power in the senate is historically authentic, but
the Republican senate in regulating the aerarium was for the most
part usually regulating revenues not deriving from taxes on citizens.
(As has been the case too in NR until now.) But if we decide to do as
modern nations normally do and derive the bulk of our governmental
income from the citizens, then it would be more appropriate for us to
put the pursestrings in the hands of the People, making such
legislation or constitutional changes as necessarys to do so.

The senate is made of up knowledgable people with administrative
experience and much to contribute to the bugetary process, but their
deliberations are routinely closed, and if they handle our taxes in a
manner not conformable to the taxpayers' desires or even irregularly,
they cannot be voted out of office. All this makes it necessary that
there be mechanisms for real citizen participation and meaningful
public accountability.

Livia Cornelia has very rightly emphasised the importance of clarity
and accountability in our bugetary procedures. I would go on to say
that knowing what the senate and magistrates wish to do and have done
with our money in great and accurate detail is of little use if we
cannot also have the power to ensure that the budget reflects the
priorities of the whole citizenry and to effectively hold to account
anyone, even the senate if necessary, if irregularitues should occur.

I find myself in many ways in agreement with Flavius Vedius
Germanicus when he says:

I am staunchly against the idea that taxes should be levied simply
to fill our coffers, with the assurance that we'll find a way to
spend the money. Surely, if we have money sitting around, we will
indeed find ways to spend it, merely for the sake of doing so. I say
no. Let's figure out what we want to do first, and THEN raise the
money to do it.

He then goes on to recommend that specific projects be treated
individually rather than an unregulated flow out of our pockets and
inter the treasury:

Personally, I would vastly prefer a model where specific projects
are proposed, discussed, and then funded by one-time levys. Indeed,
this would be much truer to our historical roots than an annual
payment by every Citizen. I would be much more comfortable with
one-time taxation for specific projects-- the merit of which is
debated before the monies are raised-- than raising the money first
and then figuring out how it can be spent.

To me this is especially true if these debates and some of the
attendant voting are in the Comitia. By dealing with expenses and
projects one by one, the citizenry could focus its its attention and
collective discussion in a way enabling it to exert a bit of detailed
control over how our money is spent.

I appreciate the facts called to our attention by Censor Sulla that
many elected and unelected officials encounter and must pay out of
their own pockets various expenses in the course of their duties.
This is obviously unfair to the poorer cives who might wish to serve
- say a pensioner with much time but meagre personal funds.
Recompensing them for such expenses might seem to be appropriate for
a routine budgetary item. Before considering what to do, should we
not get an estimate from all of these officials on how much they
might wish to claim in the future if they were allowed to?

If the amount is not too great, perhaps we could have something in
the appropriate season of the year like a telethon, where we would
set a goal and urge citizens to pledge their generous contributions
right here on the Main List. Every twenty-four hours a quaestor would
announce how much had come in that day and how much was left to go to
reach the goal. Everyone would receive some prestige for his public
spiritedness if he contributed, but those who could not afford it
would not be penalised. The excitement of the common enterprise for a
few days should encourage more giving than if it is dispersed and
anonymous. And it would be a common enterprise for us all that might
pull us more together.

That is one idea to fund a reasonable expense alowance for our
officials without taxation. But if taxation is necessary, then we
must make sure that control over the process and the resultant
revenues be in the hands of the People in a concrete and meaningful
way.

And - as Livia Cornelia has said: "I think we can't make this up as
we go. We need the plan before the tax is agreed to." Let us take
this slowly and carefully, and not be panicked into action in just
one month just because a proposal was formally put forward. Public
discussion and collecion of data for several months would be
appropriate before leaping into something like this.

Valete!

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes, Europe, continents
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Mon, 06 Nov 2000 17:25:02 -0700

BTW, it was pointed out I forgot the most important
part......each province is to KEEP part of its taxes for its
own development.

As a friend of mine just stated to me....you get what you
pay for.

Livia Cornelia Aurelia

gmvick32@-------- wrote:

> That's a good point, Draco, but bear in mind these two
> thoughts:
>
> 1. There's nothing to prevent a province outside the U.S.
> from appropriating some share of the money to build inside
> their own province. Rather than think of one massive
> building project in one place, I think its more feasible
> to conceive that we'd have multiple smaller projects in
> varied locations someday. According to demand by local
> cives.
>
> 2. One stated goal is to set up scholarships/sponsorships
> of archaeological digs, etc. There's nothing to prevent
> cives outside the U.S. from seeking to benefit from those
> funds, either. In fact, I could make the argument that
> it's easier for cives in western and eastern Europe to
> conceivable vie for and make use of funds to participate
> in Roman-related archeological digs in the Mediterranean
> and other parts of Europe with minimal disruption to their
> lives.
>
> Livia Cornelia Aurelia
>
>
> "S. Apollonius Draco" wrote:
>
> > Salvete omnes,
> >
> > In a private conversation with my frater Lucius, the
> issue of taxes was also raised, and a rather good point
> came up. Nova Roma is actually an American organization.
> Although I feel that everyone could pay a little to lower
> the burden of costs that the magistrates and the senatores
> are making right now on their own, if at least 1/3 of NR
> pays up, you'll have about 4000$ annually.... Of course
> you could say that this would be good to save, and to buy
> land with, eventually, but tell me, why should European
> cives (and those of other continents) pay up this full sum
> for results they'll never (or partially) get to see,
> because it's an American organization?
> >
> > How about this proposal, that each tax-paying civis pays
> 10$ for the main organization, and 10$ for the
> provincial/continental organization? Thusly cives would
> have more the feeling that they'll fare better with the
> money they pay, and they'll get to see some closer-to-home
> results.
> >
> > Valete
> > Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
> > Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
> > --**--
> > There are no bad guys. Just disturbed guys.
> > --**--
> > Novaromain? Parlez-vous français? Cliquez ici!:
> > http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_GalliaBelgicaF
> > Nieuwromein? Spreekt u Nederlands? Klik hier!:
> > http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_BelgicaBataviaD
> > Novaroman? Interested in philosophy? Click here!:
> > http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_Philosophy
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> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
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Subject:	[novaroma] re: tax farming & legions
From:	"G. Bagne" <gkbagne@-------->
Date:	Tue, 07 Nov 2000 01:23:34 -0000

To All from Lapella, Greetings!
We have legions, why should citizens bear all the burdens of
taxes? True other micronations are geographically scattered and many
historical recreation groups are heavily armed with black powder, but
what about renn faires- they deal in lots of cash and are unarmed!
But seriously, we cover a greater area than the origional empire
with many different currencies and local economic conditions. I think
perhaps the senate should set a tax rate for themselves that they
find both fair an exemplarary and local governors then collect what
they think as equitable in their local currency and remit the after-
expenses reciepts to the senate. Be Well! (imperative!)

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Subject:	[novaroma] I, Claudius
From:	"Lauriat" <blauriat@-------->
Date:	Mon, 6 Nov 2000 19:52:46 -0500

For Nova Romans in the Boston area:
Nova Roma, BU is having an I, Claudius marathon (DVD projected onto a big screen) on Saturday, November 11 beginning at 11 AM. For more information email me.

Valete!
Lauria Maria Crispa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Workshops
From:	"Lauriat" <blauriat@-------->
Date:	Mon, 6 Nov 2000 20:21:14 -0500

Salvete,

I was wondering if there were any Nova Romans who would be willing to, anytime in the next six months, come to Boston to present a workshop on Nova Roma or an aspect of Roman culture. I would especially like to see someone come to give a presentation on Nova Roma, since I am no authority and many people have unanswered questions. However, group members here would also love to have workshops on Roman cooking, Roman clothing, Roman religion and any other topics related to Rome. If any cives are willing to come to Boston to give such a workshop I am willing to feed you, however, if overnight accommodations are necessary I can't do much better than a sleeping bag on a feather mattress on the floor. I realize it's a pretty lousy deal, but the perks are a warm welcome and an enraptured audience. Also, a great opportunity to visit the classical art section in the Boston Museum of Fine Arts. I might even give you a tour of anything in Boston you'd like to see. I was a tour guide of Boston and its environs for foreign students one summer.

If anyone wants to give such a workshop please email me and include:
Workshop topic
Brief description of what you plan to do at the workshop
Any materials and/or special arrangements you'd need
A few possible dates/times

I hope to hear from some of you!

Lauria Maria Crispa
blauriat@--------

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] I, Claudius
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Mon, 06 Nov 2000 19:52:00 -0700

In support of the BU student chapter, I'll pop my set of I,
Claudius in the VCR too this Saturday. It's been a while,
and the least I can do to be there in spirit.

Livia Cornelia Aurelia

Lauriat wrote:

> For Nova Romans in the Boston area:
> Nova Roma, BU is having an I, Claudius marathon (DVD
> projected onto a big screen) on Saturday, November 11
> beginning at 11 AM. For more information email me.
>
> Valete!
> Lauria Maria Crispa
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> eGroups Sponsor

>

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] The Tax code revised.
From:	"c.p." <c_pontius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 6 Nov 2000 19:38:09 -0800

Unfortunatly I do not have time to read through all of the recent posts on
this issue, but I thought I must comment.

It seems to me that this proposal is not really "Taxes", but rather dues.
It also appears to me that these dues are focused toward political
positions. Because if i, Joe Blow, do not currently have the funds to
regularly pay taxes and then I wish to atain some political position, I
would need to pay all my taxes up and thus pay to even be considered in the
voting.

I do not feel that taxes should be fgocused in this way. I agree with many
of the prvious senators who have mentioned the the money they spend on a
regular basis on their jobs. Taxing them further, even in advance of the
election, is somewhat silly.

I know, hoever, that we do require money. I will think about this topic
further tonight and send off an email in the morning when i will have more
time to think.

this message may not be very clear, i whipped it up in 5 minutes:) pardon my
lack of grammar usage.

C. Pontius

-----Original Message-----
From: sfp55@-------- [mailto:sfp55@--------]
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 2:17 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] The Tax code revised.

The Tax code revised.

I. The Amount
The amount will be set by the Senate. The Senate will set the due amount
on
a province by province basis based on information forwarded by the
provincial
praetors on what their average citizen will be able to pay. The Senate may
rise or lower amounts depending on the provincial praetor's reports for
that
fiscal year.
Once amount is set it remains in force for that fiscal year.

II Requirements:
In order to obtain a GNP for the nation of Rome, the citizens will be
taxed
in the following manners.
A. Citizen Tax:
All Roman citizens will be eligible to pay their set amount.
Those who wish to be actively involved in Roman Politics, i.e the holding
of
magistracies, they must have their due amounts paid so they are in good
standing.
Citizens of Rome, who do not or cannot pay their due amount still receive
protection under Roman law and they are treated the same as the Roman
citizens in "good standing" except they may not stand for magistracies.
They
still may hold religious offices, take part in debates, attend the
chatroom,
and vote.
Citizens may recover their good standing by paying their current owed
amount
for that fiscal year.
There will never be any additional money that must be made up.
B. The Tax on Sales.
Merchants doing business in Nova Roma's Mecelleum are required to give a
percentage from each transaction to the Roman Treasury. This percentage
will
be set by the Censors at the start of the Roman fiscal year. It can never
exceed 10% of the total sale
C. The Emergency Levy
The Roman State, (The Consuls & Senate) if in a Financial Crisis, may call
on all Senators, Patricians and Magistrates to contribute additional
monies
to the Treasury in addition to their usual sum. This contribution is
entirely voluntary, and failure to meet it will not result in any
reduction
of status. There may be a drop in stature among their peers, however.
D. Donations
Donations to the Roman State are welcomed and encouraged. However such
donations do not forgive the basic tax which will still have to paid.

II. Procedure. By the start of the month of the Roman Saturnalia
(December)
will be the end of collection period for the bulk of monies. Citizens may
began to pay at the beginning of Sexilis (August). If their amount is not
paid by the start of November (the Kalendis Novembribus) from that point
on
their status in not in good standing,
and will so be noted. Citizens that do not remit the amount at the
beginning
of the period (Sexilis through Novemberes) will have to send their sum
directly to the Treasury of Rome.
Note that this means that they still must pay the current amount when the
time for it falls due.

III. Collection
There are two ways the citizens may pay. Send directly to
the Roman Treasury, or send to the Provincial Praetor during the gathering
period of the months of Sextilis to Novemberes.
The amount must be in US dollars. Therefore, Non US provinces will have
to
convert the money into a money order. American Express seems to be the
cheapest way to do this, and this is why the Provincial Praetor should be
the
collector. Once the money has been gathered, this officer can convert
these
into a single money order to be sent to the Roman Treasury.
Praetors will authorized to take the conversation charge for the money
order
from the sum. Praetors will also be authorized to retain 10% of the
gathered
sum to compensate for their trouble. This will be returned to the province
as
the Praetor and his staff see fit.
Non US provincial citizens who do not wish to send their amount to the
Provincial Praetor (or there is no Praetor to send it to) will have to
send
it directly to the Roman Treasury. If the amount is sent during the
months
Sextilis to Novemberes the citizen will be authorized to take the money
order
cost from the sum, to encourage timely compliance. If after the period
the
additional amount must be
paid. (Consider it a penalty)

IV. Forgiveness.
A. New citizens entering Rome, are forgiven payment (except on sales) for
the period of one year. They are considered members in good standing
until
the year is completed. They then fall under the obligation.
B. Additional Forgiveness
There are Provinces that may not be able to pay the decreed amount due to
Natural Disasters, Military Coups, etc. Forgiveness may be extended by
the
Senate to provinces for reasons that would be germane at the time.

C. While all our Provincial Praetors are good people, there is always the
chance that temptation will strike and the Praetor not send the money
forward, keeping it for himself. If this would happen, those citizens in
that province would be given forgiveness for that year. Rome would have
to
deal with the treacherous Praetor.
In the future Praetors may have to bonded, but until the Treasury can pay
for
the Bonding, the amounts handled are fairly small so I believe no theft
will
take place

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Subject:	[novaroma] Looking for an accounting expert
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Tue, 07 Nov 2000 09:14:21 -0000

If we are to pass any kind of tax proposal, it is clear that Nova Roma
will need laws and procedures for the handling of money.

Thanks to Priscilla Vedia Serena's excellent post, I called my
insurance agent yesterday to get quotes on bonding Nova Roma officials,
at least in the United States.

If any Citizen has expertise in U.S. accounting procedures,
particularly as they relate to financial controls in nonprofits, would
you be so kind as to contact me offlist?

Patricia Cassia
Quaestor, Nova Roma

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Subject:	[novaroma] Ritual of Concordia and Mars
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Tue, 07 Nov 2000 14:22:47 -0000

Cassius and I will be making offerings to the goddess Concordia and the
god Mars on Saturday night starting at around 7:30. Anyone who wants to
come to Wells, Maine is welcome to attend, and we'll have a few guests
from the local Pagan community.

Concordia is the goddess of harmony among disparate peoples, and to her
we will pray for peace among the nations of the world, for respect
among differing religious groups and for the ability to disagree
peacefully within the groups of which we are a part.

Because the date, Nov. 11, is famous in modern history as Armistice/
Veterans' Day, we will also make offering to Mars in thanks for the
sacrifices of warriors ancient and modern, and in hope that their might
will not be needed.

If you cannot be there, but are interested in the goals outlined here,
I invite you to join us in offering incense, wine or bread to Concordia
and Mars on Saturday.

Patricia Cassia

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Subject:	[novaroma] To Novae Romae Americana
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Tue, 07 Nov 2000 14:50:18 GMT

Salvete !

Here is a quick way to make a stand for Roman virtue and philosophies to
those outside of Nova Roma, and to preserve the liberties within your
resident macronation.

Get out there and Vote!......... :) :)

Bene vale,
Pompeia

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Subject:	[novaroma] Nova Roma 501(c)(3) application
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Tue, 07 Nov 2000 16:08:48 -0000

This is to inform the People of Rome that I have mailed our application
for U.S. nonprofit tax status. I apologize for the length of time it
has taken me to move on this.

It is my understanding that it will be a couple of months before we are
told the results of the application. I will keep the People of Rome
informed.

Patricia Cassia
Quaestor

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