| Subject: |
Fw: [novaroma] Re: Poll on the emperors |
| From: |
"Lucius Pompeius Octavianus" <octavianuslucius@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 17 Nov 2000 00:36:53 -0000 |
|
Oh!, Itīs right. I forgot Caligula, Nero, Tiberius, Commodus,
Caracalla, etc.. Now my question is : Were Julian the Apostate,
Marcus Aurelius, Antoninus Pius, Hadrian killers ?. My concept of
them is that they were perhaps "good people" compared with killers,
but unfortunately, my knowledge is not enough. So I would appreciate
any comments on this. I read "Julian" by Gore Vidal, and my
interpretation is that he was an idealist striving for religious
freedom, and a person who loved peace and philosophy,and tried to
save paganism. Also I think that Marcus Aurelius prefered philosophy
rather than war, but circumstances led him to this last one. I know
Hadrian had culture and passion for all greek, and that he was
extravagant, but was he a killer ?
Vale
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
--- In novaroma@--------, "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...>
wrote:
> Should have been on the main list. :)
>
> SF
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "L. Corn--------s Sulla" <al--------us@-------->
> To: "Luc--------Pompe--------Octav--------s" <octav--------sluc---------------->
> Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2000 3:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Poll on the emperors
>
>
> > > In relation with Constantine the Great and Theodosius the
great, from
> > > my subjective point of view I do not like them at all, because
I
> > > consider that they played a very important role in puting an
end to
> > > paganism. And I know that Constantine was really a killer, a
vulgar
> > > man and extremely ambitious.
> >
> > Let me ask you, what emperor was NOT a killer?
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >
> >
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Roman matron's clothing (let's try that again) |
| From: |
"pjane@-------- " <pjane@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 17 Nov 2000 01:12:11 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, "Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@e...>
wrote:
> Nice garb! I like the color of the stola. Are the brass (?) fasteners the
> kind with the attached tongue?
No, they're actually pennanular cloak brooches (sold by the folks who
make tunics and togas for us - e-mail anubis@-------- and mention
Nova Roma, and the Treasury will get a small percentage). I would have
liked fibulae, but haven't seen faithful reproductions that would
reliably hold together that much cloth.
> I also bought a 'reproduction' dress/chemise/whatever from a shop in London
> that claimed to be based on a Roman undertunic - the sleeves look buttoned
> together but really aren't & there is cloth attached under the two sides.
I'm not exactly clear what the attached cloth was like - just a square
hanging down, or an under-petticoat, or what? I haven't heard of
anything like this - in cold climates, as I understand it, Roman women
just added more layers (perhaps more than one tunic or stola, plus a
palla and/or cape for outdoors). In any case, I'd be interested in
hearing more about this chemise.
As I think I mentioned in my first post, I got most of my information
out of "The World of Roman Costume," edited by Larissa Bonfante. My
Roman garb is certainly a work in progress, and there are others who
have much more attractive and accurate outfits!
Patricia Cassia
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Roman matron's clothing (let's try that again) |
| From: |
"pjane@-------- " <pjane@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 17 Nov 2000 01:12:29 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, "Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@e...>
wrote:
> Nice garb! I like the color of the stola. Are the brass (?) fasteners the
> kind with the attached tongue?
No, they're actually pennanular cloak brooches (sold by the folks who
make tunics and togas for us - e-mail anubis@-------- and mention
Nova Roma, and the Treasury will get a small percentage). I would have
liked fibulae, but haven't seen faithful reproductions that would
reliably hold together that much cloth.
> I also bought a 'reproduction' dress/chemise/whatever from a shop in London
> that claimed to be based on a Roman undertunic - the sleeves look buttoned
> together but really aren't & there is cloth attached under the two sides.
I'm not exactly clear what the attached cloth was like - just a square
hanging down, or an under-petticoat, or what? I haven't heard of
anything like this - in cold climates, as I understand it, Roman women
just added more layers (perhaps more than one tunic or stola, plus a
palla and/or cape for outdoors). In any case, I'd be interested in
hearing more about this chemise.
As I think I mentioned in my first post, I got most of my information
out of "The World of Roman Costume," edited by Larissa Bonfante. My
Roman garb is certainly a work in progress, and there are others who
have much more attractive and accurate outfits!
Patricia Cassia
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Poll on the emperors |
| From: |
sfp55@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 16 Nov 2000 20:23:17 EST |
|
<< 6 - Claudius - can take a long run off a short dock... >>
Come now. Don't hide your true feelings. Besides Roman colonization was
probably the best thing that could have happen to Britain.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Poll on the emperors |
| From: |
"J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 16 Nov 2000 22:12:14 -0500 |
|
sfp55@-------- wrote:
> << 6 - Claudius - can take a long run off a short dock... >>
>
> Come now. Don't hide your true feelings. Besides Roman colonization was
> probably the best thing that could have happen to Britain.
Economically and culturally, yes, I agree. Was a bit hard on the Brits when
the Romans landed, though.
Fulvia
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Poll on the emperors |
| From: |
"Lauriat" <blauriat@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 16 Nov 2000 22:04:04 -0500 |
|
Yes, many would claim that Hadrian was a killer, or at least a not terribly
pleasant guy. His treatment of the Jews was impractical, irrational and
cruel. Hadrian provoked the Jews to uprising by outlawing circumcision and
planning to turn Jerusalem into the Roman colonia of Aelia Capitolina. Then,
after having almost single-handedly caused the second Jewish revolt in AD
132-135 (also known as the Bar Kokhba revolt) with this measures, he sent
out an immense military expedition to enact an uncharacteristically brutal,
bloody and costly suppression, after which he banned the Jews from
Jerusalem.
-Lauria Maria Crispa
----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Pompeius Octavianus <octavianuslucius@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2000 7:36 PM
Subject: Fw: [novaroma] Re: Poll on the emperors
Oh!, Itīs right. I forgot Caligula, Nero, Tiberius, Commodus,
Caracalla, etc.. Now my question is : Were Julian the Apostate,
Marcus Aurelius, Antoninus Pius, Hadrian killers ?. My concept of
them is that they were perhaps "good people" compared with killers,
but unfortunately, my knowledge is not enough. So I would appreciate
any comments on this. I read "Julian" by Gore Vidal, and my
interpretation is that he was an idealist striving for religious
freedom, and a person who loved peace and philosophy,and tried to
save paganism. Also I think that Marcus Aurelius prefered philosophy
rather than war, but circumstances led him to this last one. I know
Hadrian had culture and passion for all greek, and that he was
extravagant, but was he a killer ?
Vale
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
--- In novaroma@--------, "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...>
wrote:
> Should have been on the main list. :)
>
> SF
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "L. Corn--------s Sulla" <al--------us@-------->
> To: "Luc--------Pompe--------Octav--------s" <octav--------sluc---------------->
> Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2000 3:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Poll on the emperors
>
>
> > > In relation with Constantine the Great and Theodosius the
great, from
> > > my subjective point of view I do not like them at all, because
I
> > > consider that they played a very important role in puting an
end to
> > > paganism. And I know that Constantine was really a killer, a
vulgar
> > > man and extremely ambitious.
> >
> > Let me ask you, what emperor was NOT a killer?
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >
> >
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Poll on the emperors |
| From: |
"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 17 Nov 2000 04:11:37 GMT |
|
Salvete Omnes:
Actually, with due respect, Winston Churchill alluded to the positive
contributions of Rome to Britain in one of his speeches. Now, I don't have
it handy, but if you insist, I can dig it up :)
This is why we are a part of Nova Roma; to celebrate the contributions of
Rome to our respective societies, no? Who knows, given a different time
frame, I'm sure Churchill would atleast be a subscriber to the Britannia
List.
This is a great discussion topic. My compliments, Gai Sente!
In Amicitia,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
>From: sfp55@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Poll on the emperors
>Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 20:23:17 EST
>
><< 6 - Claudius - can take a long run off a short dock... >>
>
>Come now. Don't hide your true feelings. Besides Roman colonization was
>probably the best thing that could have happen to Britain.
_________________________________________________________________________
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Poll on the emperors |
| From: |
sfp55@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 17 Nov 2000 02:21:55 EST |
|
In a message dated 11/16/2000 7:22:02 PM Pacific Standard Time,
blauriat@-------- writes:
<< he sent
out an immense military expedition to enact an uncharacteristically brutal,
bloody and costly suppression, after which he banned the Jews from
Jerusalem. >>
The Desporia, or scattering.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Poll on the emperors |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Claudius=20Nigellus?= <app_cl_lucentius_nigellus@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 17 Nov 2000 09:18:46 +0000 (GMT) |
|
Salvete
--- sfp55@-------- wrote: > In a message dated
11/16/2000 7:22:02 PM Pacific
> Standard Time,
> blauriat@-------- writes:
>
> << he sent
> out an immense military expedition to enact an
> uncharacteristically brutal,
> bloody and costly suppression, after which he
> banned the Jews from
> Jerusalem. >>
> The Desporia, or scattering.
>
I am by no means a Jewish historian, but do you mean
the Diaspora? If so, the traditionally accepted date
for this is about 700 years before the time period in
question (in about 500-600 BCE, I believe) and has a
particularly powerful cultural resonance as a key
event in Jewish history.
Were the events of the Hadrianic era of sufficiently
traumatic consequence that they too were given this
term?
Valete
Nigellus
PS Vespasian gets my vote as favourite emperor.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Poll on the emperors |
| From: |
"Marcos Boehme" <m_arminius@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:53:15 -0300 |
|
Salvete Quirites
This is my own list of the "better Emperors", along with of the worst ones.
The criteria that i adopted was the cohesion and prosperity of the Empire, not the personal qualities of the emperor.
The Better Emperors
1 Augustus
2 Traianus
3 Diocletianus
4 Hadrianus
5 Marcus Aurelius
6 Aurelianus
7 Antoninus Pius
8 Septimius Severus
9 Claudius
10 Constantinus
The Worst Emperors
1 Caligula
2 Valerianus
3 Nero
4 Commodus
5 Elagabalus
6 Alexandrus Severus
7 Domitianus
8 Didius Julianus
9 Decius
10 Romulus Augustulus
In this lists, i avoided to include the emperors who remained little time in charge, with some exceptions (who can forget a emperor that "bought" their seat? [Didius Julianus]).
Marcus Arminius Maior
Provincia Brasilia
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Poll of Emperors |
| From: |
"Rita Reali" <ritasax@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:2:20 -0800 |
|
Salvete Quirites
For the past few weeks I have been away with an illness. It has forced a
move; please note the change in my email address below. (It is not my addy
and already my wife is upset with how her address is being flooded with my
email.)
After wading through so many emails that awaited me on my return, I have
now come back to the main list to find my fellow citizens once more
discussing the relative attributes of the caesars. How does one compare a
Franco to a Hitler, a Brezhnev to a Stalin? Anyone recall that Commodus,
Nero and Caligula all had their admirers too?
The true legacy of Rome does not lie with its dictatorial Sullas or those
who have since followed his example. As I have pointed out the last time
this topic came on our list, Rome's gift to the world begins with those
Plebeians who first stood up for the rights of all citizens, rather than
with those privileged few who sought to suppress them. It was plebeians
who insisted on rule by law rather than by the arbitrary whims and personal
vindictiveness of unchecked magistrates. Shall I repeat my refrain again,
to Volero Publius, Virginius, or to the Gracchi? Should I once more remind
our Quirites that the ideals we most admire and seek to emulate in our res
publica are not those of emperors and dictators. Cornelius Sulla abused
his authority to set himself up as a dictator. One man, the Tribune Macer,
stood against the Sullian tyranny. The future of our res publica is not to
be found in the examples of tyrants such as a Sulla, but in the example of
those who stood against him, and men like him.
In contrast to the offerings others have made, acclaiming one dictator or
another, I shall instead offer one noble Roman who stood in the Senate as a
voice for tolerance, in an age of persecution and bigotry:
Quintus Aurelius Symmachus (1093-1155 auc), praefctus annonae, Senator,
consul of 1144 auc, an eloquent man of letters, the last voice of Paganism
to stand in the Senate against the Christian Emperors.
"What does it matter by which wisdom each of us arrives at truth? It can
not be possible that there is only one road that leads to so sublime a
mystery."
Symmachus is most known for his appeal to a Christian emperor to allow the
Senate to continue the religio romana and rites before the sacred Altar of
Victory, for the benefit of all Romans. In an age of waning Paganism,
Symmachus gained repute even among Christians for his erudition, his
scholarship, and for his steadfast pursuit of justice and tolerance.
Ultimately Symmachus was brought down in defending not only his fellow
Pagans' right to practice the faith of their conscious, but for defending
the rights of Christians to practice their faith in a Rome ruled by an
Arian emperor.
Rather than those who would use brute force and tyranny to compel, I must
respect a man like Symmachus who by the power of his intellect, the justice
of his cause, the piety of his example, sought to persuade his fellow
citizens to rise above petty differences and work together for the common
good of their Republic. Can our res publica of Nova Roma today be any
better served than by the example of Symmachus and other such noble Romans?
Di deaeque vos et rei publicae nostrae incolumes semper custodiant.
Gn. Moravius Piscinus
--- ritasax@--------
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Poll of Emperors |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:00:20 -0800 |
|
Ave!
I personally admire Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix, Dictator of Rome. To me he was a
great Roman. He was an undefeated General and a man who triumphed over his enemies.
What I like best about him is the fact that he is flawed. I believe that he really
tried to restore the Res Publica from the state of civil anarchy that it was gradually
devolving into. Yes, his reforms failed within a generation, but I believe he did try
his best to halt the slide down to the slippery slope to a imperial regime.
I personally think that by the time the Dictator was around, Rome was already in need
of a strong individual guiding the fate of the Republic. However, both my ancestor
and most Romans at that time could not stomach such a change to the Mos Maiorium. It
took another two generations of civil wars to change the form of governement.
Oh and Gn. Moravius, you might want to come up with a new speech....you posted this
one or one very much like this before! Using the same or very much similar speech,
isnt good style. :)
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
*Proud to take the name of a very Great Roman*
Rita Reali wrote:
> Salvete Quirites
>
> For the past few weeks I have been away with an illness. It has forced a
> move; please note the change in my email address below. (It is not my addy
> and already my wife is upset with how her address is being flooded with my
> email.)
>
> After wading through so many emails that awaited me on my return, I have
> now come back to the main list to find my fellow citizens once more
> discussing the relative attributes of the caesars. How does one compare a
> Franco to a Hitler, a Brezhnev to a Stalin? Anyone recall that Commodus,
> Nero and Caligula all had their admirers too?
> The true legacy of Rome does not lie with its dictatorial Sullas or those
> who have since followed his example. As I have pointed out the last time
> this topic came on our list, Rome's gift to the world begins with those
> Plebeians who first stood up for the rights of all citizens, rather than
> with those privileged few who sought to suppress them. It was plebeians
> who insisted on rule by law rather than by the arbitrary whims and personal
> vindictiveness of unchecked magistrates. Shall I repeat my refrain again,
> to Volero Publius, Virginius, or to the Gracchi? Should I once more remind
> our Quirites that the ideals we most admire and seek to emulate in our res
> publica are not those of emperors and dictators. Cornelius Sulla abused
> his authority to set himself up as a dictator. One man, the Tribune Macer,
> stood against the Sullian tyranny. The future of our res publica is not to
> be found in the examples of tyrants such as a Sulla, but in the example of
> those who stood against him, and men like him.
>
> In contrast to the offerings others have made, acclaiming one dictator or
> another, I shall instead offer one noble Roman who stood in the Senate as a
> voice for tolerance, in an age of persecution and bigotry:
>
> Quintus Aurelius Symmachus (1093-1155 auc), praefctus annonae, Senator,
> consul of 1144 auc, an eloquent man of letters, the last voice of Paganism
> to stand in the Senate against the Christian Emperors.
> "What does it matter by which wisdom each of us arrives at truth? It can
> not be possible that there is only one road that leads to so sublime a
> mystery."
> Symmachus is most known for his appeal to a Christian emperor to allow the
> Senate to continue the religio romana and rites before the sacred Altar of
> Victory, for the benefit of all Romans. In an age of waning Paganism,
> Symmachus gained repute even among Christians for his erudition, his
> scholarship, and for his steadfast pursuit of justice and tolerance.
> Ultimately Symmachus was brought down in defending not only his fellow
> Pagans' right to practice the faith of their conscious, but for defending
> the rights of Christians to practice their faith in a Rome ruled by an
> Arian emperor.
> Rather than those who would use brute force and tyranny to compel, I must
> respect a man like Symmachus who by the power of his intellect, the justice
> of his cause, the piety of his example, sought to persuade his fellow
> citizens to rise above petty differences and work together for the common
> good of their Republic. Can our res publica of Nova Roma today be any
> better served than by the example of Symmachus and other such noble Romans?
>
> Di deaeque vos et rei publicae nostrae incolumes semper custodiant.
> Gn. Moravius Piscinus
>
> --- ritasax@--------
> --- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
>
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