Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A Noble Roman
From:	Mike Macnair <MikeMacnair@-------->
Date:	Sat, 18 Nov 2000 19:15:40 -0500

Salvete!

Sulla is right that his namesake is one of the best of the roman "emperors"
(i.e. military strongmen). Why? Answer: because when he had finished
reforming the state, he RETIRED, like a true roman republican dictator.

That said, it's true that the choice is between the best of a bad bunch.
Compare the criticisms of monarchy in Cicero's De Re Publica.

Valete,

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

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Subject:	[novaroma] New poll
From:	dougies@--------
Date:	Sun, 19 Nov 2000 03:35:47 -0000

Ave quirites et pater conscripti,

I have formulated a new poll for you, and hope to have the results of
the old one posted soon. The following is abot generals, but is split
into two different sections: republic and empire. These polls are here
to encourage participation in Nova Roma for the many, as well as to
create conversation and discover new things about different areas of
Rome.

Here are the questions:

Section I: Generals of the republic:

>From the list below, generate the list (in order of preferences) for
the greatest generals.

- Gaius Julius Caesar
- Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
- Gaius Marius
- Gnaeus Pomepius Magnus
- Lucius Licinius Lucullus
- Quintus Sertorius
- Quintus Fabius Maximus Verrucosis Cunctator
- Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus
- Publius Cornelius Scipio Aemilianus
- Titus Flamininus
- Lucius Aemilius Paullus
- Marcus Atillius Regullus
- Coriolanus
- Gnaeus Domitius Ahenobarbus
- Cincinnatus
- Other

Section II: Generals of the Empire

>From the list below, generate the list (in order of preferences) for
the greatest generals.

- Marcus Ulpius Traianus (Trajan)
- Gnaeus Domitius Corbulo
- Gnaeus Julius Agricola
- Marcus Aurelius
- Marcus Aurelius Claudius II Gothicus (Claudius II Gothicus)
- Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa
- Titus Flavius Vepsasianus (Vespasian)
- Belisarius
- Flavius Aetius
- Constantine the Great
- Pertinax
- Titus
- Other

Thankyou for taking the time to do this.

Valete Bene,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] New poll
From:	"Herc" <airwisp@-------->
Date:	Sun, 19 Nov 2000 00:37:24 -0500

----- Original Message -----
From: <dougies@-------->

> Ave quirites et pater conscripti,
>
> I have formulated a new poll for you, and hope
to have the results of
> the old one posted soon. The following is abot
generals, but is split
> into two different sections: republic and
empire. These polls are here
> to encourage participation in Nova Roma for the
many, as well as to
> create conversation and discover new things
about different areas of
> Rome.
>
> Here are the questions:
>
> Section I: Generals of the republic:
>
> >From the list below, generate the list (in
order of preferences) for
> the greatest generals.

I am going to talk about the generals I have read
up on ...

1 - Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus

Scipio Africanus is the best general that Rome, in
either the days of the Republic or of the Empire,
has ever had. He made full use of what is today
called 'combined force of arms.' He made
excellent use of his soldiers, cavalry, long-range
artillery, archers, and other combat units. He
molded his tactics and strategy to suit not only
the situation but also location and time of the
attack.

He understood the fact that a lasting peace is
based on how well you treat the enemy after the
fall of the opponent. An example of this is that
after the surrender of Carthage there was never
any problem from their part of the world again.

He also took heed of the lessons he learned from
his opponents after fighting them. Out of one of
these battles was borne the light-infantry.

Scipio Africanus served Rome and cared about her
future ...

After him come,
2. Gaius Iulius Caesar
3. Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
4. Gnaeus Pomepius Magnus
5. Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

As for the rest I know nothing about them ...

> Section II: Generals of the Empire
>
> >From the list below, generate the list (in
order of preferences) for
> the greatest generals.

I am sorry to say that I have not read enough
material on any of these generals to list them in
any fashion.

> Thankyou for taking the time to do this.
>
> Valete Bene,
>
> Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

You are welcome,
- Caius Tiberius Scipio

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: A Noble Roman
From:	marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
Date:	Sun, 19 Nov 2000 07:24:20 -0000

Salve Sulla,

I must confess that while I have nothing against you, the Nova Roman
Sulla, I think very little of the original Roman Sulla. Mainly
becuase, although he did retire, he used his dictatorship to further
his own ends rather than those of the Res Publica. (And he helped
start the civil war.) However, I have a great deal of respect for
Sulla's tactical and strategic genius, placing them second to very
few people. (Three Romans, at the last count!)

Valete,
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: A Noble Roman
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 18 Nov 2000 23:16:07 -0800

Ave,

I am the very first to admit that my namesake is not perfect. But was a
flawed individual. However, that does not detract from his greatness, but I
think adds to it. Becuase we have a truly human being who tried, I think,
to do his best in a very bad situation. His reforms were aimed at trying to
restore the tottering supremacy of the Senate, this included the reforms of
the legal system and the establishment of many courts that I believe
remained in force from the end of the Republic til the Imperial principate.
But, if my recollection is correct, I do not think he began the Civil War, I
think blame must be spread around equally, given the facts that we do know.
During the turbulent times that followed during and after the Social War.
But, I agree as a General, he does deserve many accolades as was recently
posted about the Day in which he won the battle at the Colline Gate. :)

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: New poll
From:	marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
Date:	Sun, 19 Nov 2000 07:36:18 -0000

Salve Quirites,
my choice would be as follows:

> Section I: Generals of the republic:

Gaius Marius (Best)
Quintus Sertorius
Lucius Aemilius Paullus
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus
Publius Cornelius Scipio Aemilianus
Lucius Licinius Lucullus
Gaius Julius Caesar
Marcus Atilius Regullus
Titus Labienus (My own choice)
Quintus Fabius Maximus Verrucosis Cunctator
Cincinnattus
Gnaeus Domitius Ahenobarbus
Titus Flaminius
Coriolanus
Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus (Worst)

> Section II: Generals of the Empire

Marcus Ulpius Traianus
Gnaeus Julius Agricola
Pertinax
Marcus Aurelius
Belisarius
Flavius Aetius
Titus Flavius Vespasian
Gnaeus Domitius Corbulo
Marcus Aurelius Claudius II Gothicus
Constantine the Great
Titus *
Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa *

* = I haven't heard of these!

Valete,
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] New poll Generals.
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Sun, 19 Nov 2000 02:38:42 EST

In a message dated 11/18/2000 9:37:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
airwisp@-------- writes:

<< - Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus>>

Actually, it's a tie between Iuilus Caesar and L. Furius Camillius.
Caesar beating Magnus at Pharsallio was a masterpiece of tactical maneuver.
Scipio learned from one the best, Hannibal Barca, and pretty much imitated
him, which makes him a smart general, but not necessarily a great one.
However if we are talking about the middle republic, it is interesting that
contemporary Roman writers of the post Punic war histories believe that
Marcus Claudius Marcellus was the best Punic War general. He annoyed
Hannibal so much that Hannibal had him ambushed and killed at the height of
his fame. He did capture Syrakuse which many felt was impossible.
Finally we cannot forget L. Furius Camillius, who, after the Celts broke the
Roman army at Allia, rallied the republic, and abandoned the Etruscan
Phalanx, copying
instead, the Latin, Volscian, Samnite way of fighting, adding a multi line
concept,
which resulted in Roman legiones that eventually drove the Gauls out Latinum,
and would be the backbone of the Roman military system for the next half
century.
Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Most underrated General
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 18 Nov 2000 23:41:22 -0800

With all these polls that are cropping up..I thought I would like to
know what everyone feels is Ancient Rome's most underrated General?

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: [Fwd: Urgent please reply by tommorrow]
From:	"Catja " <ponton.3@-------->
Date:	Sun, 19 Nov 2000 08:19:34 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "S. Apollonius Draco"
<hendrik.meuleman@--------> wrote:
>
> "Catherine" most likely stems from Greek, and would mean "the pure
one" or
> something along those lines. I'm not sure of a Latin version but I
suppose
> Catherina or Catharina would be ok.

"Catherine" does come from the Greek; the root is the adjective
katharos, meaning "clean or pure." Related are the verb kathairo ("I
purify") and the noun hei katharois ("purification") -- I think I've
transliterated those correctly. We also get the words "catharsis"
and "catheter" from this root. I agree that "Catharina/Catherina"
would work; the Greek form would be spelled with a "K."

Salvete,
Camilla Iulia Circe
(whose "real" name is a form of Catherine)

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: New poll
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:56:42 -0600

Salvete

> Titus Labienus (My own choice)

And thank you very much for it. I was wondering if anyone was going to
mention my spiritual forebear. His defeat of the Parisii was masterful,
assuming C Iulius didn't embellish it. It's interesting to see how the
depiction of Labienus changes from the account of the Gallic wars to
that of the civil wars; practically night and day.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Change of e-mail
From:	Scott Dolleck <sdolzg@-------->
Date:	Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:12:44 -0700

Salvete,

I am in the proccess of starting a new job so
I will be offline for 2 to 3 weeks.
My e-mail address has also changed to:
sdolzg@--------

Valete
Lucius Avisius

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: A Noble Roman
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 19 Nov 2000 12:14:40 -0600

Salvete

> I am the very first to admit that my namesake is not perfect. But was a
> flawed individual. However, that does not detract from his greatness, but I
> think adds to it.

While I would agree that Sulla Antiquus should be lumped in with the
great men of history, I really think the only way in which one could
classify him as "noble" would be due to his patrician birth. His
reforms were both good and bad, but his proscriptions were entirely
unsupportable. By misusing his authority to butcher his own people, he
firmly cast himself in the mold of men like Stalin and Mao.
Coincidentally, all three of them were fairly good generals as well.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
Any resemblance between the above views and those of my employer, my
terminal, or the view out of my window is purely coincidental. Any
resemblance between the above and my own views is non-deterministic.
The question of the existence of views in the absence of anyone to hold
them is left as an exercise for the reader. The question of the
existence of the reader is left as an exercise for the second god
coefficient. (A discussion of non-orthogonal, non-integral polytheism
is beyond the scope of this article.)

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Most underrated General
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 19 Nov 2000 12:42:31 -0600

19 Nov 2000

Salve All

My most underated general is;

Quintus Caecilius Metellus Pius

Comments?

Vale

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lucius Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
To: "NovaRoma" <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 1:41 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Most underrated General

> With all these polls that are cropping up..I thought I would like to
> know what everyone feels is Ancient Rome's most underrated General?
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Most underrated General
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:09:22 GMT

Salvete Quintus et alii:

Good choice for the most "underrated general"!!

Indeed, Metellus Pius' father got more publicity for a failure to win a
war...Quintus Caecilius Metellus Numidicus failed rather prolongedly to
defeat Jugurtha of Numidia. Gaius Marius, with Sulla as his Legate
eventually ended up finishing the job.

Quintus Sertorius implies in his line "if that old woman hadn't come over
the hill", things might have worked out for the better in his defence of
Spain's Rebels against Rome. It is speculated that Sertorius was referring
to Metellus Pius. Pompeius and Metellus Pius had apparently split up in
Spain, in an attempt to divert and distract Sertorius' forces. While Pompey
was battling Sertorius near the end of the campaign, Pius showed up at the
last minute to provide a surprise reenforcement for Pompey. Some of
Sertorius' advisers turned on him and killed him. Sertorius was defeated
73-72 BCE.

So, Pius was likely the turning point of that very important campaign.
He was, more experienced than Pompey, and older. Pius faught in the Social
War with Sulla. I doubt Pompey would have one this one singlehandedly. He
was only 27 and at that point, no match for the military wizardry of
Sertorius. Sertorius himself was a brilliant general, fighting under the
Marian forces for years.

Sources: Plutarch, Theodore Mommsen, and other sources I forget :)!!

Valete!
Pompeia

>From: "Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
>To: "Lucius Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
>CC: <novaroma@-------->, "Quintus Sertorius"
><quintus-sertorius@-------->
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Most underrated General
>Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 12:42:31 -0600
>
>19 Nov 2000
>
>Salve All
>
>My most underated general is;
>
>Quintus Caecilius Metellus Pius
>
>Comments?
>
>Vale
>
>QS
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Lucius Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
>To: "NovaRoma" <novaroma@-------->
>Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 1:41 AM
>Subject: [novaroma] Most underrated General
>
>
> > With all these polls that are cropping up..I thought I would like to
> > know what everyone feels is Ancient Rome's most underrated General?
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Most underrated General
From:	"Comptess" <comptess@-------->
Date:	Mon, 20 Nov 2000 11:16:12 +1300

Most underrated general?

Hmm...Titus Labienus, Legate of Caesar. Overshadowed somewhat in the Gallic Wars by Caesar and since then undeservedly slammed by Colleen McCullough.

Domna Claudia Auspicata
----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
To: NovaRoma
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 8:41 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Most underrated General

With all these polls that are cropping up..I thought I would like to
know what everyone feels is Ancient Rome's most underrated General?

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Most underrated general
From:	"Michael" <maf@-------->
Date:	Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:18:38 +1000

Ave,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla wrote:

>I thought I would like to
know what everyone feels is Ancient Rome's most underrated General?<

Quintus Sertorius.

Fought against overwhelming odds for the best part of a decade, was an early master of guerilla warfare, and inflicted the only defeats that Pompey suffered until Pharsalus. Yet the histories I have read seem to write him off as a minor rebel of no real consequence. Even Scullard only gives him a couple of pages. Given different circumstances there's no reason he couldn't have been in the league of Africanus, Marius, Sulla, Pompey or Caesar.

Vale

Marcus Afranius Regulus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Most underrated General
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 19 Nov 2000 17:22:10 -0600

19 Nov 2000

Salve Pompeia

Thank you very much for this informative reply. Pius was one of Sulla's most
loyal and versatile generals.

Vale

----- Original Message -----
From: "Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
To: <quintus-sertorius@-------->; <alexious@earthlink.net>
Cc: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Most underrated General

> Salvete Quintus et alii:
>
> Good choice for the most "underrated general"!!
>
> Indeed, Metellus Pius' father got more publicity for a failure to win a
> war...Quintus Caecilius Metellus Numidicus failed rather prolongedly to
> defeat Jugurtha of Numidia. Gaius Marius, with Sulla as his Legate
> eventually ended up finishing the job.
>
> Quintus Sertorius implies in his line "if that old woman hadn't come over
> the hill", things might have worked out for the better in his defence of
> Spain's Rebels against Rome. It is speculated that Sertorius was referring
> to Metellus Pius. Pompeius and Metellus Pius had apparently split up in
> Spain, in an attempt to divert and distract Sertorius' forces. While
Pompey
> was battling Sertorius near the end of the campaign, Pius showed up at the
> last minute to provide a surprise reenforcement for Pompey. Some of
> Sertorius' advisers turned on him and killed him. Sertorius was defeated
> 73-72 BCE.
>
> So, Pius was likely the turning point of that very important campaign.
> He was, more experienced than Pompey, and older. Pius faught in the
Social
> War with Sulla. I doubt Pompey would have one this one singlehandedly. He
> was only 27 and at that point, no match for the military wizardry of
> Sertorius. Sertorius himself was a brilliant general, fighting under the
> Marian forces for years.
>
> Sources: Plutarch, Theodore Mommsen, and other sources I forget :)!!
>
> Valete!
> Pompeia
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
> >To: "Lucius Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
> >CC: <novaroma@-------->, "Quintus Sertorius"
> ><quintus-sertorius@-------->
> >Subject: Re: [novaroma] Most underrated General
> >Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 12:42:31 -0600
> >
> >19 Nov 2000
> >
> >Salve All
> >
> >My most underated general is;
> >
> >Quintus Caecilius Metellus Pius
> >
> >Comments?
> >
> >Vale
> >
> >QS
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Lucius Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
> >To: "NovaRoma" <novaroma@-------->
> >Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 1:41 AM
> >Subject: [novaroma] Most underrated General
> >
> >
> > > With all these polls that are cropping up..I thought I would like to
> > > know what everyone feels is Ancient Rome's most underrated General?
> > >
> > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.
>

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