| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Most underrated general |
| From: |
"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:46:38 -0600 |
|
19 Nov 2000
Salve Marcus
I to agree that Sertorius was an underrated general. I find that the more
people that find out about this talented Roman, the more he is admired for
his capabilities and versatility. His martial prowess is legend.
Vale
QS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael" <maf@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 6:18 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Most underrated general
> Ave,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla wrote:
>
> >I thought I would like to
> know what everyone feels is Ancient Rome's most underrated General?<
>
> Quintus Sertorius.
>
> Fought against overwhelming odds for the best part of a decade, was an
early master of guerilla warfare, and inflicted the only defeats that Pompey
suffered until Pharsalus. Yet the histories I have read seem to write him
off as a minor rebel of no real consequence. Even Scullard only gives him a
couple of pages. Given different circumstances there's no reason he couldn't
have been in the league of Africanus, Marius, Sulla, Pompey or Caesar.
>
> Vale
>
> Marcus Afranius Regulus
>
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] New poll Generals. |
| From: |
LSergAust@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 20 Nov 2000 02:21:07 EST |
|
Salve Quintus Fabius
Interesting! In all of my military browsing I have never before
encountered details about exactly when and by whom the switch from the
massed phalanx to the more mobile and flexible battle formations of the
legions took place. Why don't we hear more of L. Furius Camillius in
"popular" history, and where might one read about him?
I would also like to hear from Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus how,
if he was such a poor general, Gn. Pompeius Magnus managed to conquer the
East for Rome and in the civil war managed to run the Divine Iulius all
over the place for years. Caesar's victory at Pharsallus was a desperate
last minute come-back from total defeat with a small, harried and beaten
army. It certainly speaks well of Caesar's generalship, but it owed more
to Gn. Pompeius' overconfidence than it did to Caesar's brilliance.
Pompeius actually expected the engagement to be basically a mopping-up
operation by his heavy cavalry, which outweighed and outnumbered Caesar's
by a considerable margin, and were supposed to blast away Caesar's
cavalry and roll up the flank of Caesar's infantry. He failed to
anticipate Caesar's brilliant use of "mechanized" infantry to support his
weak cavalry arm (each of Caesar's cavalrymen "carried" a legionary into
action running alongside holding onto the saddle). When Pompeius' cavalry
were put to rout and Caesar's cavalry flanked Pompeius' lines instead,
Pompeius' troops were unnerved - they had been led to expect an easy
victory - and broke.
Pompeius had a victory dinner already laid out at his camp. I'm sure it
tasted good to Caesar's men.
But being caught overconfident and unprepared at Pharsallus doesn't make
Pompeius a poor general. Caesar was caught unprepared many times in Gaul
and elsewhere, and Pompeius had him "on the ropes" at Pharsallus. I think
the phrase about "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory" applied
there.
Vale,
L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
On 11/19/00 1:38 AM Quintus Fabius Maximus (sfp55@--------) wrote:
>In a message dated 11/18/2000 9:37:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>airwisp@-------- writes:
>
><< - Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus>>
>
>Actually, it's a tie between Iuilus Caesar and L. Furius Camillius.
>Caesar beating Magnus at Pharsallio was a masterpiece of tactical maneuver.
>Scipio learned from one the best, Hannibal Barca, and pretty much imitated
>him, which makes him a smart general, but not necessarily a great one.
>However if we are talking about the middle republic, it is interesting that
>contemporary Roman writers of the post Punic war histories believe that
>Marcus Claudius Marcellus was the best Punic War general. He annoyed
>Hannibal so much that Hannibal had him ambushed and killed at the height of
>his fame. He did capture Syrakuse which many felt was impossible.
>Finally we cannot forget L. Furius Camillius, who, after the Celts broke the
>Roman army at Allia, rallied the republic, and abandoned the Etruscan
>Phalanx, copying
>instead, the Latin, Volscian, Samnite way of fighting, adding a multi line
>concept,
>which resulted in Roman legiones that eventually drove the Gauls out
>Latinum,
>and would be the backbone of the Roman military system for the next half
>century.
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
quemadnoum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.
(A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.)
Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4bc - 65ad
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Lucio Cornelio Silla |
| From: |
m.morgantini@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:24:23 -0000 |
|
( Con cortese richiesta di traduzione in inglese. Grazie!)
Marcus Attilius Lucio Cornelio salutem dicit.
Desidero inserirmi nella discussione che si è aperta in merito
alla indicazione del miglior "imperator" della storia romana.Come al
solito in questi , che giochi sono e tali devonono rimanere, vi sono
amici che la prendono in modo eccessivamente serioso e quindi sparano
giudizi alquanto stravaganti.
Tu , Lucio Cornelio, sei uno di questi? Mi domando se la tua
posizione è dovuta alla voglia di giocare con la storia oppure di
prenderti gioco di essa?
Come puoi indicare un personaggio come Silla quale migliore
comandante e magari governante della Roma repubblicana!
Egli , che dal punto di vista personale è stato quanto di più
abietto , meschino e subdolo.
Ha utilizzato il potere ed il carisma di Caio Mario , non in una
occasione , ma per lunghi decenni. Ha avuto da Mario tutto :
apprendimento dell'arte militare , potere sociale, famiglia, danaro !
E quale risultato politico Lucio Cornelio Silla ha lasciato alla
storia : il Foro Romano allagato di sangue !
Per non parlare della sua ottusità politica. Le sue riforme si
sono rivelate quali semplici restaurazioni , insensibli alle
mutazioni sociali ed economiche della società dell'epoca.
Restaurare privilegi non significa restaurare i Mos Maiorum , ma un
semplice atto di conservatorismo ottuso.
Sono certo ,amico mio, che una paziente rilettura di qualche testo
,non dico universitario , ma di semplici manuali del liceo , ti
schiarirà la memoria e magari favorirà prese di posizione degne
di miglior causa. I giudizi sulla storia sono difficili , ma se
guidati dal buon senso spesso sono più veritieri.
Ricorda gli insegnamenti dei Summi viri! Ricorda uomini come
Cincinnato , Decio Mure , Caio Duilio , Regolo ,Giuno Bruto , Marco
Furio Camillo e forse mille altri , che umilmente dettero l'esempio
spesso a costo della propria vita ,per il bene dell'Urbe e di tutta
l'umanità.
Ad maiora ! amico mio .
Marcus Attilius Reg.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Lucio Cornelio Silla |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 20 Nov 2000 02:26:54 -0800 |
|
Ave!
After finding a translating site....I think I get the jest of what you are
trying to say. I defend Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix, Dictator of Rome for
what he is. He was an undefeated General who overcame many obstacles, who
had one of the toughest Consulships in the history of the Res Publica, who
had his command taken away while he was Consul! An unheard of feat....who
overcame such obstacles to still triumph over his enemies at home and
abroad. With that he came home, fought another Civil War and when that was
over he tried to reestablish the totering and floundering Republic. By
reforming not only the government of Rome, but of her provinces as well.
Not to forget that he also saved Rome from the Samnites.
Lets face it, if Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix didnt become Dictator what do
you think would have happened? How long do you think the Republic would
have lasted? How long before another military strongman would come along
and establish rule...maybe even did away with the Republic entirely.
I do not defend Lucius Cornelius's proscriptions, the deaths of many noble
and not so noble Romans. However, to condemn a man who was very Republican,
I feel is not accurate. Many of Lucius Cornelius Sulla, reforms were very
necessary, as I said about his legal reforms of the court system, which
lasted quite a long time after he died, was probably his most successful
reform. And, unlike other military strongmen who controlled the state after
him, he left the office once he felt the State could function given the new
Constitution he set up for it. How many military strongmen throughout
history have done that?
He established the Tabularium which was a center that housed all archieves
of the Republic (which I was extremely pleased the Senate voted to
reinstitute that archieve last year).
As I have said all along in this discussion, he was a flawed man, but I
believe he was a Great Man, a man who overcame ALOT and still held true to
his beliefs and was able to implement many changes as he thought they would
help the Res Publica. I am honored to have taken his name and revive such a
noble gens.
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
m.morgantini@-------- wrote:
> ( Con cortese richiesta di traduzione in inglese. Grazie!)
>
> Marcus Attilius Lucio Cornelio salutem dicit.
>
> Desidero inserirmi nella discussione che si è aperta in merito
> alla indicazione del miglior "imperator" della storia romana.Come al
> solito in questi , che giochi sono e tali devonono rimanere, vi sono
> amici che la prendono in modo eccessivamente serioso e quindi sparano
> giudizi alquanto stravaganti.
> Tu , Lucio Cornelio, sei uno di questi? Mi domando se la tua
> posizione è dovuta alla voglia di giocare con la storia oppure di
> prenderti gioco di essa?
> Come puoi indicare un personaggio come Silla quale migliore
> comandante e magari governante della Roma repubblicana!
> Egli , che dal punto di vista personale è stato quanto di più
> abietto , meschino e subdolo.
> Ha utilizzato il potere ed il carisma di Caio Mario , non in una
> occasione , ma per lunghi decenni. Ha avuto da Mario tutto :
> apprendimento dell'arte militare , potere sociale, famiglia, danaro !
> E quale risultato politico Lucio Cornelio Silla ha lasciato alla
> storia : il Foro Romano allagato di sangue !
> Per non parlare della sua ottusità politica. Le sue riforme si
> sono rivelate quali semplici restaurazioni , insensibli alle
> mutazioni sociali ed economiche della società dell'epoca.
> Restaurare privilegi non significa restaurare i Mos Maiorum , ma un
> semplice atto di conservatorismo ottuso.
> Sono certo ,amico mio, che una paziente rilettura di qualche testo
> ,non dico universitario , ma di semplici manuali del liceo , ti
> schiarirà la memoria e magari favorirà prese di posizione degne
> di miglior causa. I giudizi sulla storia sono difficili , ma se
> guidati dal buon senso spesso sono più veritieri.
> Ricorda gli insegnamenti dei Summi viri! Ricorda uomini come
> Cincinnato , Decio Mure , Caio Duilio , Regolo ,Giuno Bruto , Marco
> Furio Camillo e forse mille altri , che umilmente dettero l'esempio
> spesso a costo della propria vita ,per il bene dell'Urbe e di tutta
> l'umanità.
>
> Ad maiora ! amico mio .
>
> Marcus Attilius Reg.
>
>
>
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Lucio Cornelio Silla |
| From: |
"Herc" <airwisp@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:29:46 -0500 |
|
----- Original Message -----
From: <m.morgantini@-------->
Marcus Attilius Reg. requested ...
> ( Con cortese richiesta di traduzione in
inglese. Grazie!)
Translating from Italian to English, for those of
you who wish to see the full translation ... Most
of this I translated over almost literally (going
from one language to another literally is not a
good idea), what I changed to better understand
than literally I have put in single quotation
marks.
> Marcus Attilius Lucio Cornelio salutem dicit.
>
> Desidero inserirmi nella discussione che si è
aperta in merito
> alla indicazione del miglior "imperator" della
storia romana.Come al
> solito in questi , che giochi sono e tali
devonono rimanere, vi sono
> amici che la prendono in modo eccessivamente
serioso e quindi sparano
> giudizi alquanto stravaganti.
I desire to insert myself in this discussion that
is on the topic of who is the best "Dictator" in
Roman History. And as usual, like the games which
they are and should remain, there are some friends
who take this topic far too seriously and make
decisions very extravagantly.
> Tu , Lucio Cornelio, sei uno di questi? Mi
domando se la tua
> posizione è dovuta alla voglia di giocare con la
storia oppure di
> prenderti gioco di essa?
(Cauis Tiberius Scipio) I will translate this
further after a response from the Reg. "Mi scusi,
Marcus Attilius Reg., potrebbe chiarire un po pui
per me cosi portro tradurre pui meglio? La cosa
che non capisco proprio e l'ultima parte:
"... dovuta all voglia di giocare con la storia
oppure di prenderti gioco di essa?" Grazie mille
se puo chiarari per me.
> Come puoi indicare un personaggio come Silla
quale migliore
> comandante e magari governante della Roma
repubblicana!
> Egli , che dal punto di vista personale è stato
quanto di più
> abietto , meschino e subdolo.
How could a personality like Silla become the best
governor of the Roman Republic! He, from my point
of view, he was the most abject, lame, and
deceitful.
> Ha utilizzato il potere ed il carisma di Caio
Mario , non in una
> occasione , ma per lunghi decenni. Ha avuto da
Mario tutto :
> apprendimento dell'arte militare , potere
sociale, famiglia, danaro !
> E quale risultato politico Lucio Cornelio Silla
ha lasciato alla
> storia : il Foro Romano allagato di sangue !
He used the power and charisma of "Caio Mario"
(not certain how to translate over the name ...
perhaps Caius Marius?), not in just one instance
but over many decades. He got everything from
"Mario," training in the military arts, social
power, family and money! And what political
result did Lucius Cornelius Silla leave us with?
The Roman Forum covered in blood!
> Per non parlare della sua ottusità politica. Le
sue riforme si
> sono rivelate quali semplici restaurazioni ,
insensibli alle
> mutazioni sociali ed economiche della società
dell'epoca.
> Restaurare privilegi non significa restaurare i
Mos Maiorum , ma un
> semplice atto di conservatorismo ottuso.
Otherwise let's not talk about dull politics. His
reforms were revealed simply to be nothing more
than makeovers, insensible to the changes in
society and economics for the society of that
period. Simple restoring privileges does not mean
restoring the Mos Maiorum, but is a simple act of
dull conservatism
> Sono certo ,amico mio, che una paziente
rilettura di qualche testo
> ,non dico universitario , ma di semplici
manuali del liceo , ti
> schiarirà la memoria e magari favorirà prese di
posizione degne
> di miglior causa. I giudizi sulla storia sono
difficili , ma se
> guidati dal buon senso spesso sono più
veritieri.
I am sure, my friend, that a patient rereading of
some texts, and I am not meaning university books,
but from some simple high school books, will
refresh your memory and perhaps will help in
gaining you the 'higher ground' in this
discussion. Judging his history is difficult but
if guided by good sense 'your points become more
truthful.'
> Ricorda gli insegnamenti dei Summi viri! Ricorda
uomini come
> Cincinnato , Decio Mure , Caio Duilio , Regolo
,Giuno Bruto , Marco
> Furio Camillo e forse mille altri , che
umilmente dettero l'esempio
> spesso a costo della propria vita ,per il bene
dell'Urbe e di tutta
> l'umanità.
Remember the teachings of "Summi viri" (the
statues of the greatest and good)! Men like
Cincinnatus, "Decu Mure, Caio Duilio, Regolo,
Giuno Bruto, Marco Furio Camillo," and thousands
of others, which humbly stated "that the example
is often the cost of your life, for the good of
the "dell'Urbe" and for the rest of humanity."
> Ad maiora ! amico mio .
>
> Marcus Attilius Reg.
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: New poll Generals. |
| From: |
marcusaemiliusscaurus@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 20 Nov 2000 18:38:11 -0000 |
|
Salve Quirites,
Austalicus, I don't believe Pompeius Magnus was "Such a poor
general", nor did I say such. I simply rated him below everyone else
listed. Why?
Because, his operations in the east were against the highly
specialised cataphract army of the Parthians. When facing highly
specialised armies, in my opinion, all you have to do is exploit the
weakness of it. While Pompeius did this well, this does not make him
a good general.
When he had fun playing with pirates in the mediterranean, he was
mopping up a horde of pirate chiefs, each standing on their own,
squabbling as much with eac other as with the Romans.
Everywhere else, Pompeius managed to get used as a tennis ball
whenever he came up against a general of any standard whatsoever.
When he was in the Civil War, he did very little of worth himself.
When in Spain, he got battered by Sertorius, a far better general,
until Metellus Pius came. (BTW, I now concur with others in saying
that Metellus Pius was highly underrated.)
When he faced Caesar, i disagree that he kep Caesar running. He left
Rome to Caesar, ran for Greece, and then sat there waiting for
Caesar. When he faced him at Pharsalos, a battle I know little
about, he lost, and ran to Egypt, and got assassinated.
Therefore I don't think him a poor general, just so mediocre that
he's far too overrated to be a great one.
Valete,
MArcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Lucio Cornelio Silla |
| From: |
marcusaemiliusscaurus@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 20 Nov 2000 18:46:11 -0000 |
|
Salve Quirites,
Um... I don't know what to say to this. I am one of the most avid
advocates of Marius, and a bitter foe of Sulla, (The old one ;-)) but
I think this is a little extreme. I think he used the dictatorship
for his own means, not at all altruistic ones, but deceitful? So was
everyone? Correct that. So IS everyone! I see very little wrong
with deceit in politics. I used to, but then I realised I hated
everyone in politics because of it and I'd better damned well get
used to it!
Sulla was no angel, but as Nova Sulla said, nor is anyone, and Sulla
was, in my own cynical way, far more human than most others simply by
his deceit and dishonour.
I realise this is not informative, but I had to point out that Ithink
the last post on this was a ... bit biased....
Valete,
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
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