Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] RE: BlipBland's book
From:	"Tiberius Hibernius Gladius Mortifer" <tiberius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:09:52 -0500

I didn't take the time to really read this... can anyone tell me, did it
actually have anything to do with Nova Roma?

I don't know about everyone else.. but I get a ton a messages from the Nova
Roma list everyday... that in and of itself is a chore to download all of
those messages, but it's one that I chose to do of my own free will...

however, I really don't appreciate having to wait 15 minutes to download my
email for something that may or may not be connected to the mailing list I
subscribe to. If someone has a large file to share with others, the proper
thing to do is post it somewhere (web space is readily and *freely*
available)... and notify others of where the file can be found. By sending
it to mailing list with a large subscriber base, you force each and every
one of the members to sit and wait while your file downloads.

I would ask *anyone* with a large file to share to take this into
consideration before sending it off to *any* mass mailing list.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question for candidates Moravius Piscinus and Labienus Fortunatus
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:23:15 -0600

T Labienus Fortunatus Antonio Gryllo Quiritibusque S P D

First let me state that I only speak for myself. My opinions and
perceptions are my own, and I cannot speak authoritatively for anyone
else. Likewise, M Apollonius, whose message Antonius Gryllus quoted
without credit, can only speak for himself. His perception of the Amici
Dignitatis is only one among many.

And, while I must admit that the Stoic school began in Athens, I am much
more inspired by the works of Cicero, Seneca, and M Aurelius than the
words of Epictetus. Therefore, I believe I can say quite truthfully
that nobody from Athens is influencing me. I am not here to wipe out
Nova Roma's organs of government in favor of an Athenian democracy, and
I do not mean to imply such when I state that Nova Roma is a democracy.
As a previous conversation pointed out, the words democracy and republic
have many and varied definitions. Not all democracies are Athenian, and
not all republics are Roman.

And now, to answer your questions.

> I'm very worried at the moment and in order to sleep well until the
> elections, I'd like to know whether the candidates for the Tribunate
> will make all efforts to keep the Roman system and preserve the
> Vedian constitution - attained with so much effort and which allowed
> the number of Senators (some of them the ones who now want to destroy
> that same Constitution) and popular participation to greatly increase
> since its establishment- and make it more and more ROMAN.

I will, if elected, bend every effort to preserve the legacy of our
Roman forefathers--especially that of the many plebeian heroes that gave
their all in order to help establish the Roman republic as the pinnacle
of Western civilization. Their influence is felt in every Western
democracy (Or, if you would prefer, republic. There is no country which
is purely democracy on the face of the planet, and for good reason.)
even today. I will also defend the constitution and work to promulgate
plebiscites that will build upon it and improve our micronation.

Also, I take exception to being singled out by implication as a Senator
who wishes to destroy the constitution. While there are many in Nova
Roma who do not agree with me on every point, I believe there is no one
here who can point to even a single act of mine and say that it was
committed in an effort to harm the res publica. At every turn, I have
sought to be a voice of reason and moderation while holding fast to my
convictions. I am no barbarian at the gate, seeking to sack the Eternal
City.

> I also would like to know whether you intend to follow the same policy
> of Tribunes like Sergius Australicus, who, while not discarding the
> defense of the plebeians and Romans in general, were able to let the
> institutions work without any political crisis, without endangering
> the Respublica.

I would argue that L Sergius has been less active than he should have
been, though I have no cause to complain about his efforts on behalf of
Nova Roma otherwise. My policies shall be different than his, if only
because I am not him. However, I reiterate that, if elected, I will act
at all times in the best interests of Nova Roma, as my limited, human
capacities allow me to understand them. In other words, I shall take
the oath that I must swear to the people and Gods in order to serve as a
tribune very seriously, and shall not willingly become forsworn. How
could I act otherwise? The tribunate is a *sacred* duty.

> As such, another question for you is: what is your role within the
> Amatores Dignitatis for checking this kind of behaviour and to promote
> the continuation of the nation of Nova Roma?

First, as I said before, M Apollonius can only speak for himself and can
only outline his view of what we are and ought to be. Indeed, what he
thinks we ought to be is the thrust of the message you quoted. Even so,
nowhere in his message does he say that he wants to destroy Nova Roma's
government or make it something other than Roman. His position is far
from proposing to "launch an athomic [sic] bomb over NR and to destroy
the Roman system." That said, I do admit that his language is often
hyperbolic. Such is his style.

Please note the difference M Apollonius makes between the Amici
Dignitatis and those of us who originally started it (he refers to us as
convocatores). The Amici are dedicated to *non-partisan* debate and to
fostering greater political involvement on the part of the general
populace. Those who have signed the statement of that group are not
necessarily members of some political movement, nor are they necessarily
opposed to any given person or political trend.

For myself, I helped to establish the Amici and was one of the original
signers of their statement precisely to increase citizens' awareness of
their government and how it works; to increase their desire for
involvement and to help show them how to participate. This is a far cry
from trying to topple the pillars of the state.

Valete

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question for candidates Moravius Piscinus and Labienus Fortunatus
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:23:15 -0600


Subject:	[novaroma] Election: First public endorsement
From:	Piparskegg UllRsson <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:43:22 -0600

Avete omnes,

Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator Scripsit:

I can only give my endorsement in this way:
I have been with Nova Roma since early in Her history.
I have found Cassius to be a Roman, and I count him as friend.

QS

Venator

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Subject:	[novaroma] Venue for debate.
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:55:38 -0600 (CST)

Salve Marce Marci et Omnes,

> I also invite all Quirites to join with me in discussion of
> political issues on the NR_Dignitas Forum List.
> http://www.egroups.com/messages/NR_DignitasForum

Thank you for the invitation to discuss political issues - something
that is on all of our minds lately.

However, I must submit that the proper place for such discussion
is *here*, the "main list", novaroma@-------- There are several
compelling reasons why this list is preferable.

These elections are of vital importance to the future of our
Republic. Election debate deserves its place on the main
list due to this importance. The nearly three hundred citizens
subscribed to novaroma@-------- are the core of our active citizenry,
and should be participants in the debate. This list is nearly fifteen
times the size of your list, and it is an unnecessary inconvenience
to require citizens to subscribe to another.

The bulk of the political discussion took place on the main list
during the previous election seasons, a system that worked very
well. Why should we break with precedent? There is no compelling
reason to redirect the debate elsewhere.

Finally, and most importantly, the neutrality of this main list
makes it a superior venue for debate. You and your co-signatories
to the Dignitas statement have all urged us to move the debate to
a mailing list moderated by one of your own. Your alliance has been
called a Movement, but it has also been called a political party, and
it is not right that one political party should determine the location
for the debate, nor try to host it in a place that shares its name.
Here, we are on neutral ground, and that is the only place that
a fair discussion can take place.

In the interests of fairness to all candidates and voters, and in the
interests of ease of participation by all, and in keeping with the
traditions established in previous years, I ask that the debate
remain on the main list.

Valete, Octavius.

-
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
Microsoft delenda est!
http://www.graveyards.com/

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Subject:	[novaroma] Declaration of Candidacy
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 20:26:00 -0500

Salve,

I stand before you today to declare my candidacy for the position of
Curatrix Sermonem. I view this as a quiet but critical position within Nova
Roma, and one for which I am quite well suited.

I have 5 years experience (5/1995-8/2000) as list moderator for two e-mail
lists, each of which has a population exceeding 300 members. Those lists
average 20-50 messages per day, so heavy volume and intense discussion are
things I am quite used to. At the moment, my moderator duties are limited
to one announcement list and a small (14 member) hobby list, so I am also in
a good position to devote nearly my full attention to the Nova Roma list as
needed.

My style of moderation has always been that of 'less is more'. In that
respect, I believe I would provide a continuation of the fine job done by
Patricia Cassia recently. I am a firm believer in self-moderation, only
stepping in as absolutely necessarily, and even then privately. While I do
believe that having a Curatrix Sermonem is essential to the continued
dignity of this list, I also believe that our citizens are capable of
maintaining their dignitas with a minimum of intervention.

I have always prided myself, personally as well as professionally, on my
communication skills. Diplomacy, candor and clarity are essential traits of
one who desires to hold a position such as Curatrix Sermonem. I have
professional experience with conflict resolution and group management, and
those skills will serve me well should the need arise to deal with problems.

In closing, allow me to thank you in advance for considering me for this
position. I would be honored to serve Nova Roma in this capacity and I
genuinely believe that my skills are ideally suited to the task.

Vale,

Priscilla Vedia Serena

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Subject:	[novaroma] Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus stands for Praetor Urbanus
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 20:29:58 EST

Salvete Quirites!

I rise this time to declare myself an aspirant for the office of Urban
Praetor. Most of you will know me as a Tribune of the Plebs who has been
fiercely defensive of the rights of individual citizens and of the letter
and spirit of our Constitution and our Roman Republic. I have also sought
to keep the citizens informed of the policies being debated in the
Senate, without violating the Senate's right to keep the details of its
deliberations private, as was the custom of our ancient forefathers. I
have been beholden to no-one and no faction, and have never feared to
tread on the toes of the mighty if my duty required it. I believe friend
and foe alike will attest that I have earned my self-chosen agnomen of
Obstinatus.

In the non-Internet world, I am a professional psychologist, a teacher,
and an administrator. For many years I have been responsible for the
creation and revision of policies, rules, and procedures in mental health
facilities. I have also participated in the successful resolution of two
Federal lawsuits against mental health facilities, so I know a bit about
legal processes. I would like to work with Quintus Fabius Maximus in the
coming year to bring a system of civil law to Nova Roma, and to
strengthen our comitiae, in which our citizens make the laws and settle
the disputes of our Republic.

I am also concerned to continue defending the institutions of our
Republic against those who would overthrow them and put in their place
the mob rule of the Athenians. Those who want to participate in an
Athenian "democracy" (which any honest scholar knows was never anything
we would call democratic) should found one for themselves rather than
amuse themselves by trying to undermine what we have built here. Let
those of us who love Rome, join together to make Nova Roma better and
bigger, but always Roman!

Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
Tribunus Plebis and candidate for Praetor Urbanus

------------------------------------------------------------
vita brevis sed amor longus, et amor omnia vincit

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question for candidates Moravius Piscinus and Labienus Fortunatus
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 20:29:56 EST

Salvete omnes!

I suggest that, at least during this critical election campaign period,
it is more appropriate for us to debate our political and social causes
here in the openness of the Forum, rather than in the shadows and corners
of some private mailing list.

Those who claim to want openness and democratic process might do well to
demonstrate their practice of it by speaking up here, publically, of
their intentions.

Valete,

Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
Tribunus Plebis

On 11/30/00 11:19 PM Antonio Grilo (amg@--------) wrote:

>
>Salvete dignissimi candidati
>
>I heard rumours that there are some athenian-influenced senators and
>candidates who want to change the political system of Nova Roma into a
>Roman-unlike system which is against the spirit of our aims as
>reconstruccionist organisation. In fact our Web site says "NOVA ROMA is an
>organization dedicated to the study and restoration of ancient Roman
>culture." and it is this that attracts Roman enthusiats like you, me and
>many.
>In my personal view, the responsibility of the Tribunes is more than to
>"secure the rights of the plebeians", for more important than being a
>plebeian and the voice of the plebeians, a Tribune is a Roman and owes much
>to the honour of our Roman forefathers who watch us in every moment.
>I'm very worried at the moment and in order to sleep well until the
>elections, I'd like to know whether the candidates for the Tribunate will
>make all efforts to keep the Roman system and preserve the Vedian
>constitution - attained with so much effort and which allowed the number of
>Senators (some of them the ones who now want to destroy that same
>Constitution) and popular participation to greatly increase since its
>establishment- and make it more and more ROMAN.
>I also would like to know whether you intend to follow the same policy of
>Tribunes like Sergius Australicus, who, while not discarding the defense of
>the plebeians and Romans in general, were able to let the institutions work
>without any political crisis, without endangering the Respublica.
>
>In the end I join the text of an email posted to the Dignitatis list, which
>shows the kind of negative attitude I would like to be checked by the
>Tribunes. That letter was written by a member of the Amatores Dignitatis.
>That man confesses that the aim of the Amatores Dignitatis is to launch an
>athomic bomb over NR and to destroy the Roman system. His words show
>blindness and the taste for confusion and crisis.
>
>As such, another question for you is: what is your role within the Amatores
>Dignitatis for checking this kind of behaviour and to promote the
>continuation of the nation of Nova Roma?
>
>
>Valete bene in pace deorum
>Antonius Gryllus Graecus
>Pontifex, Senator, Magistratus, Civis
>
>***********************************************
>
>> Salvete Amatores Dignitatis!
>>
>> There has been launched an initiative of significant proportions
>to
>> secure democracy and good government for Nova Roma. Many had
>> suggested that to do so would be to split Nova Roma and in effect
>> explode a most anachronistic atomic bomb in the Forum. Yet when our
>> Statement was published, nothing of the sort happened.
>>
>> Indeed almost nothing happened, which is perhaps too much of a
>good
>> thing. :-) This is, after all, a movement for *change*. And thus far
>> we have not even had a good dialogue here on the new Dignitas Forum
>> List.
>>
>> The Movement initiated and guided by the Convocatores has a
>twofold
>> nature: first to promote Good Government and Citizen Participation in
>> general, and secondly to field candidtates who will further these
>> goals. The second is a kind of activity that comes close to being
>> partisan. Everybody involved, however, abominates on a gut level the
>> word "party", outsiders fear that "party" means "faction" and that
>> faction means danger. Therefore the de facto party proclaims itself a
>> non-party.
>>
>> Indeed, among us (the convocatores, not the Amici Dignitatis, who
>as
>> such are politically neutral) there is little party discipline, and
>> we are still at that stage at which we are really not interested in
>> personal power, but are idealistic in terms of our primary
>> motivation. And in fact those persons whom we perceive to be harming
>> Nova Roma through their secret plans and overt actions constitute a
>> fairly tight clique united by opportunism and a singularly illiberal
>> vision of what Nova Roma should be - in other words, a faction. Even,
>> therefore, coming out for simple Good Government is to make ourselves
>> a faction against a faction, a de facto party against a de facto
>> party.
>>
>> It is inevitable that it should be so, but not threatening: what
>> real democracy does not have parties? Those states which claim to
>> have "partyless democracy" are usually found on closer inspection to
>> have no democracy. People differ in opinion, and they find friends to
>> work with. The important thing is that free dialogue is allowed to
>> continue by and for all parties, and that free and fair elections can
>> determine who will make the decisions and provide the leadership of
>> the state.
>>
>> If we convocatores were a party, I have joked that it might be
>> called the "Lucius Marius Peregrinus Memorial Party". ;-) Which is a
>> joke because there seem to be people who fear any connection between
>> our Marius and the Movement, despite the fact that all the
>> politically aware cives know perfectly well how the original signers
>> (the convocatores) fought for the Causa Marii, and that enemies of
>> Marius' rights are our enemies.
>>
>> That a case on the face of it of censorial discrimination against
>a
>> citizen due to his being a member of a sexual minority was allowed by
>> those in authority - the consuls and senate - to take place and
>> continue without any vigorous attempt to investigate and stop it is
>> disgraceful. That the senate was manoeuvred into voting a dubious
>> reprimand against the overall victim, while it never bothered to
>> reprimand his persecuter, who was surely acting against the
>> non-discriminatory spirit of the Constitution - a person previously
>> reprimanded by the senate, indeed - is deeply alarming.
>>
>> Three persons joined to give Marius grief because he wanted his
>name
>> to match his social gender, because he insisted on his natural right
>> to that and made a provisional tactical departure from Nova Roma in
>> protest at the denial of that right, because he is alleged to have
>> utilised his natural right of free speech to condemn those in Nova
>> Roma who had acted improperly towards him, and because he twice
>> exercised his sense of humour at the expense of a senator apparently
>> quite sensitive to that. That this should be able to happen is
>> difficult to avoid, human beings being what we are. That it was not
>> expeditiously stopped by the legal processes and more responsible
>> associates of these three persons is deeply dangerous for our
>> Respublica.
>>
>> The protests by US, the behind the scenes help of Censor et
>> Paterfamilias Merullus, the support of the Pontifex Maximus, and the
>> deeply gratifying magnanimity of Livia Cornelia Aurelia have relieved
>> Marius' situation to a considerable degree. But he has not yet got
>> his true name officialised, and to that extent Nova Roma is still
>> allowing a sexual minority to be discriminated against. And certainly
>> we have not yet created the laws and judicial institutions to protect
>> the dignitas of the common civis.
>>
>> To undo the harm done and provide for a better future we must fill
>> the senate with untainted new blood not involved in voting for the
>> reprimand of Marius, and we must remove the two presently most
>> powerful magistrates from office and keep them out for a good long
>> time (i.e. one consul and one censor) - at least. We must also create
>> a system of law and a judiciary process to protect ordinary citizens,
>> make the comitia full partners of the senate in practice, and
>> strengthen the powers of the tribunate.
>>
>> More immediately we must stop the Edictum de Nominibus Mutandis
>> from becoming law in its present form, and do the same with the Lex
>> for Bashing Returning Cives in the Teeth, and the tax proposal in its
>> present form. (Taxes and their appropriation should be clearly under
>> the control of the Populus, not the senate, in a manner consistent
>> with modern states. This may require a Constitutional amendment to
>> get right, and until it is gotten right there should be no tax
>> system.)
>>
>> But to return to Marius: we are not really a Marian party. But we
>> are indebted to Marius for being the unwilling recipient of a lot of
>> ill will and prejudice which has been enough to serve as a wake up
>> call for all of Nova Roma. In some European lands it is a criminal
>> offence to deny the historical reality of the Holocaust. Those Jews
>> *were* killed, and certain individuals *were* really responsible.
>> Likewise we must never allow anyone here to deny or neglect the fact
>> that Marius was grievously mistreated by certain officials with the
>> tacit and later active collusion of a big majority in the then
>> membership of the senate. We must *never* forget those historical
>> facts or what they teach us about the moral character and
>> trustworthiness of the persons involved.
>>
>> That is my summary of what we, the Convocatores of this Dignitas
>> List and the Dignitas Forum are about. As we are all independent
>> minded persons, some of us might not agree with all of the above, but
>> most of us would agree with most of it. I speak, however, first and
>> foremost for myself. I would like the meanness and pettiness to be
>> removed from our national life, and for all of us to enjoy some
>> magnanimitas and comitas. But above all an irreducible minimum of
>> iustitia and dignitas.
>>
>> Valete!
>

quemadnoum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

(A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.)
Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4bc - 65ad

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Encouragement for Prospective Candidates
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:56:11 -0600

Salvete

Allow me to add my voice to M Cassius' in encouraging people to run for
office.

> Vigintisexviri (At least four with various functions)
> (Minor magistrates assigned to fill a variety of functions, from
> special projects to assisting other magistrates and performing duties
> assigned by one of the Comitia. Another excellent first step toward
> the Cursus Honorum. 1 Year Term. Of particular importance are the
> Curator Sermonem - list moderator - and Curator Differum - Eagle editor.)

Again, I remind everyone that neither rogator can stand for a subsequent
term. The law forbids them from running for any office in an election
over which they preside. Our comitia, and therefore our government,
cannot function without them. Please do not allow these important posts
to go vacant.

(Thank you, by the way, Q Fabius, for your very informative post on the
subject of Roman government.)

> Even the most minor office suddenly gives you an almost tangible
> connection with the ancient world... you suddenly share a specific
> task, and even duty with a long line of dedicated Romans who have
> come before you.

Speaking as someone who served in one of those supposedly minor offices,
I can attest to this. Despite the fact that I was collecting votes
across the Internet and tallying them using a computer, there was a
certain intangible sense of tradition that accompanied the task. It was
a transformative experience, and definitely worth the effort it
required.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] RE: BlipBland's book
From:	Ira Adams <iadams@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:59:42 -0600

Oddly enough, his message was not even addressed to this list. How it got
to us is a mystery to me. Perhaps Sulla, as a worker for EarthLink, could
guess how this happened.

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

On 11/30/00 6:09 PM Tiberius Hibernius Gladius Mortifer
(tiberius@--------) wrote:

>I didn't take the time to really read this... can anyone tell me, did it
>actually have anything to do with Nova Roma?
>
>I don't know about everyone else.. but I get a ton a messages from the Nova
>Roma list everyday... that in and of itself is a chore to download all of
>those messages, but it's one that I chose to do of my own free will...
>
>however, I really don't appreciate having to wait 15 minutes to download my
>email for something that may or may not be connected to the mailing list I
>subscribe to. If someone has a large file to share with others, the proper
>thing to do is post it somewhere (web space is readily and *freely*
>available)... and notify others of where the file can be found. By sending
>it to mailing list with a large subscriber base, you force each and every
>one of the members to sit and wait while your file downloads.
>
>I would ask *anyone* with a large file to share to take this into
>consideration before sending it off to *any* mass mailing list.
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] RE: BlipBland's book
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:03:15 -0800

Its easy. Its called Blind Carbon Copy or BCC for short. Most email programs
have that capability. :)

Spamers use it alot!

Hope this helps

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

Ira Adams wrote:

> Oddly enough, his message was not even addressed to this list. How it got
> to us is a mystery to me. Perhaps Sulla, as a worker for EarthLink, could
> guess how this happened.
>
> L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
>
> On 11/30/00 6:09 PM Tiberius Hibernius Gladius Mortifer
> (tiberius@--------) wrote:
>
> >I didn't take the time to really read this... can anyone tell me, did it
> >actually have anything to do with Nova Roma?
> >
> >I don't know about everyone else.. but I get a ton a messages from the Nova
> >Roma list everyday... that in and of itself is a chore to download all of
> >those messages, but it's one that I chose to do of my own free will...
> >
> >however, I really don't appreciate having to wait 15 minutes to download my
> >email for something that may or may not be connected to the mailing list I
> >subscribe to. If someone has a large file to share with others, the proper
> >thing to do is post it somewhere (web space is readily and *freely*
> >available)... and notify others of where the file can be found. By sending
> >it to mailing list with a large subscriber base, you force each and every
> >one of the members to sit and wait while your file downloads.
> >
> >I would ask *anyone* with a large file to share to take this into
> >consideration before sending it off to *any* mass mailing list.
> >
>

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Flavius Vedius Germanicus dons the Toga Candidata
From:	"Scott C. Cozad" <mystic@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:07:41 -0500

I Marcus Alabus Thule fully support Flavius Vedius Germanicus. I have had
the pleasure of getting to know him well in the last few months. I know of
his outstanding record for Nova Roma and his devotion to the traditions of
the past. I think Nova Roma would do well to have him in the office of
Consul.

Vale,
Marcus Alabus Thule

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Venue for debate.
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 20:17:29 -0600

Salvete

I must agree with M Octavius on this, though not entirely for the same
reasons.

At least as far as I am concerned, NR_DignitasForum is not intended to
replace this list during the main election period. One of the major
motives behind creating it was the tendency for cives to complain about
long and involved political debates on this list. Those debates are
healthy for the res publica, but do, most likely, belong elsewhere once
the main points have been aired to the general populace. And so,
NR_DignitasForum was created in part to house such conversations.

However, the upcoming elections are of great import, and, one would
hope, great interest to all citizens. Therefore, they do belong here.

> Finally, and most importantly, the neutrality of this main list
> makes it a superior venue for debate. You and your co-signatories
> to the Dignitas statement have all urged us to move the debate to
> a mailing list moderated by one of your own. Your alliance has been
> called a Movement, but it has also been called a political party, and
> it is not right that one political party should determine the location
> for the debate, nor try to host it in a place that shares its name.
> Here, we are on neutral ground, and that is the only place that
> a fair discussion can take place.

Here I must reiterate that, despite the desire of some of those who
helped to gather the Amici Dignitatis, we are not a political party. We
have no platform to which each of us subscribes, and we are each
therefore free to do as our conscience dictates. Instead, we are a
loose group of relatively like-minded individuals. Indeed, we are only
a movement insomuch as we all agree on the general principles by which
Nova Roma's future path should be chosen.

That said, I must agree that the imputation of partiality does also lend
weight to the argument to keep the main body of debate for this campaign
on this list, even if such partiality does not in fact exist.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Senate to vote on final versions
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:34:47 EST

Salvete Omnes,

The Consules have announced that tomorrow the debate will be over and
voting will begin on the 12 items of the current agenda. Some of these
items have been modified a great deal in the process of debate and
discussion. The final versions to be voted on are to be posted tomorrow
and I will endeavor to re-post this revised agenda here.

Voting is planned to end Sunday night.

This has been a constructive session. Some of the debates have been
sharp, but I think they have been, on the whole, more civil and purposive
than has been the case sometimes in the past. Let's hope this trend is
continued in the coming new century (calendar century, that is).

Even more so than usual, I have no firm sense of how the vote will go on
any particular item, and won't endeavor to guess.

Valete,

Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
Tribunus Plebis

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: BlipBland's book
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 02:49:11 -0000

This list is not available for people to spam at random. One must
join, and apparently this individual has done so, for his address
appears on the member list.

Taking the pleasantest possible view of things, I have informed him
that these posts were off-topic for this list and asked him to either
speak to our topic or take his message elsewhere. I have also set his
subscription to "moderated" status so his words will not appear here
again unless I have approved them.

Like many of you, I am offended by those who believe they can spread
their message by sending it to forums where it does not belong. I
cannot prevent people joining the list and posting whatever they like,
but I can prevent future instances of this behavior from the same person.

Patricia Cassia
Curatrix Sermonem (list moderator)

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Subject:	[novaroma] More on Aurelius Tiberius running for office
From:	"Aurelius Tiberius" <kminer_rsg@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 22:29:55 -0500

Salve good people of NR,

I have doned the Whitened Toga and come to you seeking your vote for
Tribunias Plebis.

As those of you who know me I am not one for long winded prose about myself.
I am and always will be a soldier. I have commited myself to the art of
war and bringing the sword to the enemys of my country(s) as the case may
be.

As of yet NR has no enemy for me to fight, so I bring my dedication and
desire to serve her to a place it may be useful. to protect her cives from
injustice from within. If given this post I will do just that. Sometimes
those of us who serve the collective whole lose sight of what is important,
the one. Without that we would not exsist. and those individuals need
protection from us (the Collective) in times of injustice or oversight. I
will commit myself to that task.

I have had the honor since coming to NR to serve Senator Audens on his
Consular Staff within the Military Sodalitas. He has taught me temperance
and patience for a system that is sometimes slow and blind to the one. I
wish to take a moment to thank him for his guidance and mentorship. (Thank
you Marcus, and I am still not a politician!!!)

I hope you see me good enough to serve you, the people of NR.

Vale..

Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus
Praefectus Legionis & Tribuni Militum Legio VI
General of the Northern Army of the SCA Household of Rome
& Cornicularius,Sodalitas Militarium et Nova Roma

"Nos Sumus Romae milites, parati stamus ad potestatem et gloriam eius. Roma
est Lux."
"we are soldiers of Rome, for her might and glory we stand ready... She is
the Light"

www.geocities.com/legio_vi

_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question for candidates Moravius Piscinus and Labienus Fortunatus
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 22:54:17 EST

On 11/30/00 6:23 PM Fortunatus (labienus@--------) wrote:

>T Labienus Fortunatus Antonio Gryllo Quiritibusque S P D
>
[snip]
>
>I would argue that L Sergius has been less active than he should have
>been, though I have no cause to complain about his efforts on behalf of
>Nova Roma otherwise. My policies shall be different than his, if only
>because I am not him. However, I reiterate that, if elected, I will act
>at all times in the best interests of Nova Roma, as my limited, human
>capacities allow me to understand them. In other words, I shall take
>the oath that I must swear to the people and Gods in order to serve as a
>tribune very seriously, and shall not willingly become forsworn. How
>could I act otherwise? The tribunate is a *sacred* duty.
>
I am curious, Labienus, about how you mean this - in what way have I been
less active than you think I should have been? If you mean to suggest
that I should have posted more often more details of what was being said
in the Senate, then I would say that it is possible you might be right
and I am eager to see how you might handle this task. I chose to be
conservative in it, but it could certainly be carried out differently.

If you mean, on the other hand, that I should have violated custom and
tradition, as Formosanus clearly desires it should be done, by revealing
all of the opinions and votes of the senators, then I disagree.

If you mean that I should have exercised the veto more freely,
particularly in the debate of Lucius Marius' case, then you may not
understand that the individual Tribune's veto power is null and void when
his colleague takes the opposing view as was the case then. When I did
actually interpose my veto against the "Gender Edict(s)" my action was
immmediately nullified by the other Tribune. Such an act of nullification
would not have been possible in Roma Antiqva, and I think it is one area
in which our Constitution needs amendment.

[snip]
>
>Please note the difference M Apollonius makes between the Amici
>Dignitatis and those of us who originally started it (he refers to us as
>convocatores). The Amici are dedicated to *non-partisan* debate and to
>fostering greater political involvement on the part of the general
>populace. Those who have signed the statement of that group are not
>necessarily members of some political movement, nor are they necessarily
>opposed to any given person or political trend.

I think you must admit that Formosanus' post as presented here is
*certainly* and *unmistakeably* a partisan political statement, a
revolutionary agenda, and a political platform. If you hold otherwise,
then you must think the Russian Bolsheviki were just a college
philosophical society. So if you were lead by Formosanus into taking part
in the founding of a "non-partisan" debating list which he intended to
use to expound and gather support for his anti-Roman partisan platform,
we may forgive you for having been mislead - for all of us surely have
been mislead at some time or other in our lives. But how far must you
back-pedal before you either admit that you were mislead *or* openly
declare yourself a partisan of Formosanus sedition?
>
>For myself, I helped to establish the Amici and was one of the original
>signers of their statement precisely to increase citizens' awareness of
>their government and how it works; to increase their desire for
>involvement and to help show them how to participate. This is a far cry
>from trying to topple the pillars of the state.
>
But there is a wise old saying that one who lies down with dogs, will get
up with fleas. Do I see you scratching, Labienus? ;-)

Vale,

Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus

sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

(I think some people in togas are plotting against me.)

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Subject:	[novaroma] Election: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Qu=E6storship?=, Once again
From:	Piparskegg UllRsson <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 22:01:04 -0600

Salvete omnes,

Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator stands before you in a borrowed white
toga. (They just aren't practical back home in Thule ;-)

After much thought and consideration, and upon the prompting of several
private correspondents, I wish to offer my name as a candidate to
continue as a Qu�stor for Nova Roma.

I have been a Cives since Quintilias 1 ANUC (July 1998). I have been a
Qu�stor for much of that time.
I have undertaken some projects in that capacity, though this year my
contributions have been somewhat limited.
If elected to this position of trust and confidence once again, I shall
continue to assist whatever magistrate needs such help as I can give.
I am founder of and continue as Dominus Sodalis pro Coqueror et Coquus.
I am working with other Cives to try and get Provincia Magna Lacus more
active as a whole.
I wrote and sold a basic manual on the art of brewing mead as a fund
raiser for Nova Roma.

I do favor some method of charging dues for the support of our Nation.

I have an Associate in Arts degree (Business Studies), several
professional diplomas, 13 years service in the National Guard and
Reserve (US Military), over 25 years experience in various capacities in
historical re-creation and own a small business.

I ask for your vote, and thank you for your consideration. I entertain
all questions.

--
===========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis, may the Gods see you!
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
AFA - AA - ORV
Tribalist Asatruar and traveler.
My homestead
http://www.geocities.com/piparskegg/index.html
The Nova Roma online home
http://www.novaroma.org/main.html
The Nova Roma Brewing and Cooking group
http://www.egroups.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq
The Great Lakes Provincial group
http://www.egroups.com/group/GreatLakesNovaRoma

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Subject:	[novaroma] Declaration of Candidacy CENSOR
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:15:22 -0500

Ex Domo Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Quiritibus SPD

I have decided on the toga candidata this evening for the purpose of standing for the office of Censor.

I have been a Civis Novae Romae since the very first days. I have watched Nova Roma grow from a few citizens to over 500! I have worked with the founders. Though sometimes we have had our differences, we have all wanted the same thing, to realize the dream of resurrecting the Roman Religio and society. I continue to work within the Religio as a member of the College Pontificium.

I have been honored to have served as Praetor Urbanus, Consul and still as a Senator (the first citizen chosen to join with the founders in the Senate).

I have met with the founders at each Roman Days where we have had the pleasure to meet many new citizens. I have been an active citizen since the very beginning, though I do not post to the "main list" as often as I formerly did, I continue to read all emails.

What I can bring to the office is a working knowledge of the program. I have worked as an 'aid' to the Censores from very early on to today. I have the necessary programs and have been in contact with the current Censores as an advisor.

I will work to ensure that the various citizens lists are as accurate and up to date a possible. While processing applications is a priority, I will ensure that they are correct so as to avoid confusion in the future.

I am a retired US Navy Deep Sea Diver also earning my "Dolphins" on board a diesel-electric submarine (USS Wahoo SS-565). I am working on a secondary school teaching degree while raising two young children (see the Gens Equitius pages for pictures ;-) I'm a member of the Legio XX in Maryland.

Bonam Noctem et Valete,
Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Declaration of Candidacy CENSOR
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:32:15 -0500

Salvete;

I think all here know that Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus and I have had our
differences. No more needs to be said about that.

However, I believe that he would make an excellent Censor, and I
wholeheartedly endorse his candidacy. He's done the job before, knows what's
involved, and yet still wants to come back for more. Ya masochist. :-)

The office of Censor is probably the most arduous and time-consuming in our
fair Republic. I should know; I've held it myself. I am confident, however,
that Cincinnatus has both the resources and the wherewithal to undertake
this job, and I know that my vote will go in his column come this upcoming
election day.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lucius Equitius [mailto:vze23hw7@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 11:15 PM
> To: Nova Roma
> Cc: SenatusRomanus
> Subject: [novaroma] Declaration of Candidacy CENSOR
>
>
> Ex Domo Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Quiritibus SPD
>
> I have decided on the toga candidata this evening for the purpose
> of standing for the office of Censor.
>
> I have been a Civis Novae Romae since the very first days. I have
> watched Nova Roma grow from a few citizens to over 500! I have
> worked with the founders. Though sometimes we have had our
> differences, we have all wanted the same thing, to realize the
> dream of resurrecting the Roman Religio and society. I continue
> to work within the Religio as a member of the College Pontificium.
>
> I have been honored to have served as Praetor Urbanus, Consul and
> still as a Senator (the first citizen chosen to join with the
> founders in the Senate).
>
> I have met with the founders at each Roman Days where we have had
> the pleasure to meet many new citizens. I have been an active
> citizen since the very beginning, though I do not post to the
> "main list" as often as I formerly did, I continue to read all emails.
>
> What I can bring to the office is a working knowledge of the
> program. I have worked as an 'aid' to the Censores from very
> early on to today. I have the necessary programs and have been in
> contact with the current Censores as an advisor.
>
> I will work to ensure that the various citizens lists are as
> accurate and up to date a possible. While processing applications
> is a priority, I will ensure that they are correct so as to avoid
> confusion in the future.
>
> I am a retired US Navy Deep Sea Diver also earning my "Dolphins"
> on board a diesel-electric submarine (USS Wahoo SS-565). I am
> working on a secondary school teaching degree while raising two
> young children (see the Gens Equitius pages for pictures ;-) I'm
> a member of the Legio XX in Maryland.
>
> Bonam Noctem et Valete,
> Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus

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Subject:	=?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5Bnovaroma=5D_Election:__Qu=E6storship=2C_Once_again?=
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:41:48 -0500

Salvete omnes;

Woo, and might I add, hoo!

Piperbarus Ullerius is one of the most stalwart Cives that Nova Roma is
privileged to have. His drive and dedication are legendary in the Germanic
Heathen community, and I have no doubt that his energies will be spent in
furthering our cause. I wholeheartedly endorse Venator's candidacy for
Quaestor. Indeed, should I be honored to win your trust as Consul, I shall
request he be assigned to me to serve as Quaestor.

Thanks, pepper-beard, for your service. It is more than appreciated; it is
cherished.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus
Candidate for Consul

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Marcus Marcius Rex declares his candidacy for....
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 22:17:11 -0700

Salvete, Quirities:

After careful consideration, but without reservation over
the act itself, I stand before the people of Nova Roma to
praise and endorse Marcus Marcius Rex for the position of
Censor.

I bow to Lucius Equitius Cinncinatus, one of the first
people to make me feel welcome in Nova Roma. This
endorsement is not contra Cincinnatus. It is not contra
any party or pro any party, nor is it a ringing endorsement
of one friend to another. I do not have a history with Rex
to call him friend yet. I do call him colleague, and have
been nothing but impressed by this man from whom I could
learn much about principled statesmanship.

Rex is quite modest in describing the qualifications that
bring him to the table. It is true he is not of the old
guard in Nova Roma. But consider this:

Rex is one of the two Propraetors that began the Limes
Cooperation recently, which seeks to evolve as a source of
uniform, fair governance of the provinces.....the governance
that touches each individual in Nova Roma most closely. The
Limes Cooperation is still in its infancy, but shows great
promise as more provincial praetors are appointed and adopt
the initiative.

Rex had the vision to see that creating a common and
voluntary ground for propraetors and legates to work
together to create sound strategies and tools for governance
would mean more efficient government for Nova Roma and each
of its quirities.

For anyone who looks at an initiative lik this and
wonders....where is the Romanitas?....I remind you....one of
the lasting and most significant gifts of the Romans --- and
SPECIFICALLY a gift to posterity of the censorial office ---
was the ability to organize complex systems. In this
effort, Rex as one of the founders of Limes is outstanding
in his spirit of Romanitas.

Other qualifications to his name that I am aware of:

- Rex has served his country as both a soldier and a foreign
diplomat.
- Rex has been a teacher and practitioner of law
- Rex holds a high position in the Treasury department of
his country's government, and is active with international
issues of fiscal policy and law to the EU

All of these qualities speak to me of a man who has
demonstrated repeatedly his ability to exercise critical
office for the benefit of the state, and with a high
standard of both ethical judgement and efficiency. Rex has
my complete confidence in the office of censor.

Livia Cornelia Aurelia
Propraetrix, America Austroccidentalis

RexMarcius@-------- wrote:

> Salvete cives Novae Romae!
>
> Friends, citizens, Novi Romani! I stand here today before
> you, because I have
> decided to don the toga candidata. What I declare today
> has not come to me as
> an easy decision.
>
> I have been a part of Nova Roma for one and a half years
> now and I have
> served it as propraetor Germaniae and for a short while
> now also as a senator
> in its most august body. I have seen the government of
> Nova Roma work from
> the inside and the outside. There are good parts and there
> are weak parts,
> you will all agree with me. But we cannot be satisfied
> with that, as we try
> to be the recreation of the best that ancient Rome has
> been.
>
> I believe that the best Rome gave to the world, was the
> rule of law and the
> distinctive way that the people ultimately controlled the
> fate of the
> Republic, be it in the passing of leges, be it in the form
> of jury trials.
> This is what should also be reflected in our Nova Roma.
>
> Our young res publica needs its people where they can give
> the best value
> added to our beloved res publica. After pondering long and
> hard, where I
> could best fit into the Nova Roman government, I came up
> with the one
> position, that is certainly the most demanding.
>
> I am a civil servant in my macronation, I work with the
> highest political
> representatives of my government and they listen to my
> advice. I have been a
> diplomat and I have served as a soldier.
>
> I have no cursus honorum in Nova Roma.
>
> But even our laws do not require the cursus honorum, as
> the lex Vedia
> Senatoria clearly shows. What the cursus honorum could
> give me is an enhanced
> dignitas. I would be as esteemed as Censor Sulla Felix,
> the only one in Nova
> Roma who has completed the cursus honorum so far and
> certainly a shining
> example of what extraordinary people we have among us
> here. I would not dare
> to compare myself to him.
>
> Still, I hereby declare my candidacy for the office of
>
> CENSOR
>
> I have a lot to offer to Nova Roma in this office.
>
> First: I will do my utmost to fulfill this demanding
> position and I will bear
> all costs involved with it out of my own pocket. No taxes
> need to be raised
> because of me being Censor.
> Second: I will assemble a team of dedicated scriba to
> make the processing of
> citizens applications as efficient as humanly possible.
> Third: I am a European and I believe it would greatly
> help with
> administration to have one Censor residing there.
>
> I urge you all, citizens of Nova Roma, to engage in Nova
> Roma politics and
> discuss with me my political views for our beloved res
> publica
>
> You may write
> to me directly at RexMarcius@--------
>
> I also invite all Quirites to join with me in discussion
> of
> political issues on the NR_Dignitas Forum List.
> http://www.egroups.com/messages/NR_DignitasForum
>
> May our beloved res publica grow and prosper!
>
> Marcus Marcius Rex
> Propraetor Germaniae
> Senator
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question for candidates Moravius Piscinus and Labienus Fortunatus
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:14:16 -0600

T Labienus L Sergio Quiritibusque S P D

> I am curious, Labienus, about how you mean this - in what way have I been
> less active than you think I should have been? If you mean to suggest
> that I should have posted more often more details of what was being said
> in the Senate, then I would say that it is possible you might be right
> and I am eager to see how you might handle this task. I chose to be
> conservative in it, but it could certainly be carried out differently.
>
> If you mean, on the other hand, that I should have violated custom and
> tradition, as Formosanus clearly desires it should be done, by revealing
> all of the opinions and votes of the senators, then I disagree.

As far as the Senate goes, I intend to post the entirety of each item to
be voted upon at the beginning of each Senate call, as opposed to the
simple one-line versions that have been the norm. Additionally, when
posting the results of a vote, I intend to include, in the case of items
that actually generate debate, the gist of any arguments given for each
side. By this I do not mean that I intend to quote specific messages or
mention specific Senatores when doing so. Rather, I shall merely make
as unbiased and anonymous a report as I can while still providing the
people with an idea of the work that the Senate does. In short, if the
Senate decides to remain a closed body in this current session, I shall
ungrudgingly respect that decision.

> If you mean that I should have exercised the veto more freely,
<amputatio>
> Such an act of nullification would not have been possible in Roma
> Antiqva, and I think it is one area in which our Constitution needs
> amendment.

Believe me, I am entirely cognizant of what the constitution has to say
about the tribunician veto. And, I am entirely aware of why your
attempt to veto the so-called gender edictum failed. I do not fault you
for this, and I agree with your analysis of the situation.

What I really meant was the fact that you did not even attempt to use
the Comitia Plebis Tributa to promulgate any plebiscita. This is an
action that does not require both tribuni to be present. I fully
realize that our sporadic lack of a rogator was a serious impediment to
doing so, but I would still have made the attempt. It is in this regard
alone that I fault you.

> I think you must admit that Formosanus' post as presented here is
> *certainly* and *unmistakeably* a partisan political statement, a
> revolutionary agenda, and a political platform.

Yes, it was. I have not said otherwise. What I did say was that he was
speaking about two different groups, and that the NR_DignitasForum list
and many of the signatories to the statement of the Amici Dignitatis are
not the people he referred to as "convocatores". Those of us who
founded that group do see eye-to-eye on many issues and have encouraged
each other to run for office, but we established the Amici to be a
non-partisan effort to foster political activity. As I've said before,
I feel that the public exchange of ideas is the life-blood of a healthy
state.

> been mislead at some time or other in our lives. But how far must you
> back-pedal before you either admit that you were mislead *or* openly
> declare yourself a partisan of Formosanus sedition?

I am doing none of the three, though I would argue that it is
questionable that Formosanus' post is seditious. He advocates an
attempt to run for office in order to have the power to effect changes
that he sees as necessary. Is this not what any candidate does? Yes,
his language is hyperbolic. Yes, he is singularly fixated on the gender
edictum. Still, sedition can be defined as either making a call to
overthrow the government or merely raising a commotion. Formosanus is
certainly guilty of the latter, but I do not believe that he has done
the former.

Now, as for Formosanus' depiction of the "convocatores" of the Amici
Dignitatis, I have a different opinion of the group, its significance,
and its purpose. What he sees as a political party, I see as a
faction. A faction, in the sense that I use it here, is simply a group
of like-minded people who attempt to work together. We generally agree
on various principles--to whit; government should serve the people,
government should be open, laws should be fair and equally applied,
etc. However, we have not defined a platform, and we are running on our
own merits. Formosanus' opinions are not always my own, and there are
many points which I disagree upon with him. He represents the extreme
position within our group. I am more moderate.

It is natural that we (the larger group, not just Formosanus and I)
should prefer to serve with each other, and that we should support each
other--not because we're a party, but because we usually agree. In like
manner, Lucius Cornelius and Quintus Fabius seem cooperate to a large
degree.

> But there is a wise old saying that one who lies down with dogs, will get
> up with fleas. Do I see you scratching, Labienus? ;-)

Inasmuch as Formosanus' words have been incorrectly placed in my mouth
by someone who took them out of context, I suppose so. His post was
written during a discussion about what the Amici Dignitatis is and ought
to be. He believes that parties are inevitable, and would like to push
us into being one. However, we are not one and probably never will be.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Announcement of Candidacy
From:	caesar@--------
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 05:34:36 -0000

Salvete,

I stand before you at the urging of my fellow Citizens and
magistrates clad in the chalk white toga and offer myself as a
servant of our Republic. I cannot say that I had planned to run for
office this year, but am nonetheless asking for your vote in the
coming election.

I stand before you as a Roman. A lover, protector, and promoter of
our Beloved Republic. A Republic that is in danger of being toppled
by a dangerous and un-roman group of conspirators. There are
candidates that stand before you who would have our system, an
ancient and wonderful system, a _working_ system, a Roman
system....they would tear all this down which we have built, and in
its place erect a government that would make Cato himself rise from
his rest to strike out at these "men".

Do not let our Republic fall into such hands. Give your vote to one
who will safegaurd the Constitution, not seek to destroy it though
Revolutionary measures.

There may not be Barbarians at the gates of Rome, but treasonous
Romans aren't much better.

The past year has been one of stability. That is what Nova Roma
needed most. She still needs this stability in order to move forward.
This year, She will take her first steps. Nova Roma will rise from
her knees and strive to walk as She never has before. It is up to
you, Quirites, if She will fall or rise. It is dependent on who you
choose to lead Her. Do not let these "men" corrupt so beautiful a
child as our Republic.

I have served Nova Roma before, as Tribune, and as Pontifex. I served
a brief tenure as Curator Aranae. I am no stranger to our Republic,
and am always at your disposal.

Elect me to the Tribunate and I will see that our progress does not
cease, and that we do not begin to move away from our goals as a
Roman people.

You are voting for stability and you are voting for prosperity.
Please do not hesitate to email me with your individual questions.

Roma Aeterna! Roma Vincit Omnia! Ave Roma Aeterna!

Valete.

GNAEVS TARQVINIVS CAESAR
Candidate for Tribune of the People

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question for candidates Moravius Piscinus and Labienus Fortunatus
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:37:04 -0800

> > I think you must admit that Formosanus' post as presented here is
> > *certainly* and *unmistakeably* a partisan political statement, a
> > revolutionary agenda, and a political platform.
>
> Yes, it was. I have not said otherwise. What I did say was that he was
> speaking about two different groups, and that the NR_DignitasForum list
> and many of the signatories to the statement of the Amici Dignitatis are
> not the people he referred to as "convocatores". Those of us who
> founded that group do see eye-to-eye on many issues and have encouraged
> each other to run for office, but we established the Amici to be a
> non-partisan effort to foster political activity. As I've said before,
> I feel that the public exchange of ideas is the life-blood of a healthy
> state.
>

Sulla: I would really like to hear Formosanus's attempt at clarification.
Since you are a signatory of this I think it is highly relevant. I am sure you
knew of his politics and the very nature of what this "faction" intended to
do. Or did you sign up for this without reading the fine print?

>
> > been mislead at some time or other in our lives. But how far must you
> > back-pedal before you either admit that you were mislead *or* openly
> > declare yourself a partisan of Formosanus sedition?
>
> I am doing none of the three, though I would argue that it is
> questionable that Formosanus' post is seditious. He advocates an
> attempt to run for office in order to have the power to effect changes
> that he sees as necessary. Is this not what any candidate does? Yes,
> his language is hyperbolic. Yes, he is singularly fixated on the gender
> edictum. Still, sedition can be defined as either making a call to
> overthrow the government or merely raising a commotion. Formosanus is
> certainly guilty of the latter, but I do not believe that he has done
> the former.
>

So Formosanus is definately guilty of something. In your opinion, being that
he is definately guilty of "hostile words" do you think he is fit to be
Praetor?

>
> Now, as for Formosanus' depiction of the "convocatores" of the Amici
> Dignitatis, I have a different opinion of the group, its significance,
> and its purpose. What he sees as a political party, I see as a
> faction. A faction, in the sense that I use it here, is simply a group
> of like-minded people who attempt to work together. We generally agree
> on various principles--to whit; government should serve the people,
> government should be open, laws should be fair and equally applied,
> etc. However, we have not defined a platform, and we are running on our
> own merits. Formosanus' opinions are not always my own, and there are
> many points which I disagree upon with him. He represents the extreme
> position within our group. I am more moderate.
>
> It is natural that we (the larger group, not just Formosanus and I)
> should prefer to serve with each other, and that we should support each
> other--not because we're a party, but because we usually agree. In like
> manner, Lucius Cornelius and Quintus Fabius seem cooperate to a large
> degree.
>
> > But there is a wise old saying that one who lies down with dogs, will get
> > up with fleas. Do I see you scratching, Labienus? ;-)
>
> Inasmuch as Formosanus' words have been incorrectly placed in my mouth
> by someone who took them out of context, I suppose so. His post was
> written during a discussion about what the Amici Dignitatis is and ought
> to be. He believes that parties are inevitable, and would like to push
> us into being one. However, we are not one and probably never will be.

Actually no, it wasnt taken out of context. It was a declaration of principles
and intentions. Basically to remove the Republican status of our government
and to replace it with a Greek democracy. And, he implied that all of those
who signed that agreement were in cahoots with essentially sedition, if not
Treason.

Even when I was at my worst in NR (during my Praetorship) I have NEVER
formented civil unrest or revolution. Unfortuantely, this faction has been
tainted as such now by Formosanus's speech!

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

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Subject:	[novaroma] Endorsement of Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:37:45 -0800

Ave!

I hereby make my endorsement of Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus. Both
Lucius Equitius and myself have had a very hard history in Nova Roma.
In the past year, Lucius Equitius and I have developed a very good
working relationship. He is currently my nomenclator and has greatly
assisted in my duties as Censor! His response time in his duties has
been excellent thorughout the entire year.

Lucius Equitius and I communicate regularly via phone and IM and we both
have a bond between each other. It is absolutely essential that both
Censors be able to get along together and communicate regularly. My
present colleague and I have that abilty, but M. Marcius Rex and I do
not. Whereas Lucius Equitius and I excel in that area.

Beyond that, M. Marcius Rex has no experience beyond running a
Province. Whereas Lucius Equitius has extensive experience in Nova
Roma. Lucius Equitius has served as Praetor Urbanus and Consul.

It would be an honor to call Lucius Equitius my colleague in the
Censorship. I do not believe I can say more than that. I hope that the
People of Nova Roma elect Lucius Equitius as my Colleague.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Declaration of Candidacy CENSOR
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:42:10 -0600 (CST)

M. Octavius Civibus Novae Romae SPD,

I endorse the candidacy of Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus for Censor.

In every contact I have had with Lucius Equitius I have been
impressed with his dedication and his willingness to serve
in any role asked of him.

Seven months ago, when I first began to do work for Nova Roma, most
of the proposals I submitted to the Senate received very little
comment. However, there was one Senator who replied to nearly
every one of my ideas, making suggestions, experimenting with
features I intended to add to the web site, and advocating my
cause to the Consuls. That Senator was Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus.
While telling me of the need for patience -- but that eventually my
ideas would be heard -- he championed my proposals within the Senate
House, and eventually they found acceptance.

Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus suffered a political defeat last year
that would have driven a lesser man to abandon Nova Roma forever.
Yet he returned, and continued to serve as Senator, Flamen, and
Pontifex. I can think of no better example of Firmitas and Pietas.

I ask my fellow citizens to grant this dedicated, virtuous Roman
our highest honor, and select Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus as
your choice for Censor.

Valete, M. Octavius Germanicus.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question for candidates Moravius Piscinus and Labienus Fortunatus
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 00:58:49 EST

Salve,

On 11/30/00 11:14 PM Fortunatus (labienus@--------) wrote:

>T Labienus L Sergio Quiritibusque S P D
>....
>
>As far as the Senate goes, I intend to post the entirety of each item to
>be voted upon at the beginning of each Senate call, as opposed to the
>simple one-line versions that have been the norm. Additionally, when
>posting the results of a vote, I intend to include, in the case of items
>that actually generate debate, the gist of any arguments given for each
>side. By this I do not mean that I intend to quote specific messages or
>mention specific Senatores when doing so. Rather, I shall merely make
>as unbiased and anonymous a report as I can while still providing the
>people with an idea of the work that the Senate does. In short, if the
>Senate decides to remain a closed body in this current session, I shall
>ungrudgingly respect that decision.

You may find this quite a load to take on, but if you can make it
manageable, it will be a good service.

>> If you mean that I should have exercised the veto more freely,
><amputatio>
>> Such an act of nullification would not have been possible in Roma
>> Antiqva, and I think it is one area in which our Constitution needs
>> amendment.
>
>Believe me, I am entirely cognizant of what the constitution has to say
>about the tribunician veto. And, I am entirely aware of why your
>attempt to veto the so-called gender edictum failed. I do not fault you
>for this, and I agree with your analysis of the situation.
>
>What I really meant was the fact that you did not even attempt to use
>the Comitia Plebis Tributa to promulgate any plebiscita. This is an
>action that does not require both tribuni to be present. I fully
>realize that our sporadic lack of a rogator was a serious impediment to
>doing so, but I would still have made the attempt. It is in this regard
>alone that I fault you.

Gnaeus Tarquinius and I had planned to convoke the CPT early in the year.
We were awaiting word of favorable auspices and a legal day on which to
convene a meeting. You will find that these requirements can cause really
annoying delays in starting anything. Then Tarquinius "disappeared" (from
my viewpoint), the Marius issue and subsequently the gender edicta,
occupied much of our time and energy (and left me frankly discouraged for
a while). Marius chose not to have me take his case to the CPT. I chose
not to address the gender edicta that way because it would have needed to
be continued up through the hierarchy of the other Comitiae before any
closure was achieved. As you may recall, I repeatedly asked that it be
presented to the Comitia Centuriata. This was not done. And, as you note,
at every turn we were down a rogator and unable to hold any votes on
anything! Hopefully that will be fixed before the end of the year!

But the year is not over yet, and Gnaeus Tarquinius and I have been
discussing some issues that may yet be brought before the Plebs.

You make me want to vote for you, Labienus, just to see if it is all as
easy for you as you may think it will be. :-)
>
>> I think you must admit that Formosanus' post as presented here is
>> *certainly* and *unmistakeably* a partisan political statement, a
>> revolutionary agenda, and a political platform.
>
>Yes, it was. I have not said otherwise. What I did say was that he was
>speaking about two different groups, and that the NR_DignitasForum list
>and many of the signatories to the statement of the Amici Dignitatis are
>not the people he referred to as "convocatores". Those of us who
>founded that group do see eye-to-eye on many issues and have encouraged
>each other to run for office, but we established the Amici to be a
>non-partisan effort to foster political activity. As I've said before,
>I feel that the public exchange of ideas is the life-blood of a healthy
>state.
>
>> been mislead at some time or other in our lives. But how far must you
>> back-pedal before you either admit that you were mislead *or* openly
>> declare yourself a partisan of Formosanus sedition?
>
>I am doing none of the three, though I would argue that it is
>questionable that Formosanus' post is seditious. He advocates an
>attempt to run for office in order to have the power to effect changes
>that he sees as necessary. Is this not what any candidate does? Yes,
>his language is hyperbolic. Yes, he is singularly fixated on the gender
>edictum. Still, sedition can be defined as either making a call to
>overthrow the government or merely raising a commotion. Formosanus is
>certainly guilty of the latter, but I do not believe that he has done
>the former.
>
>Now, as for Formosanus' depiction of the "convocatores" of the Amici
>Dignitatis, I have a different opinion of the group, its significance,
>and its purpose. What he sees as a political party, I see as a
>faction. A faction, in the sense that I use it here, is simply a group
>of like-minded people who attempt to work together. We generally agree
>on various principles--to whit; government should serve the people,
>government should be open, laws should be fair and equally applied,
>etc. However, we have not defined a platform, and we are running on our
>own merits. Formosanus' opinions are not always my own, and there are
>many points which I disagree upon with him. He represents the extreme
>position within our group. I am more moderate.
>
>It is natural that we (the larger group, not just Formosanus and I)
>should prefer to serve with each other, and that we should support each
>other--not because we're a party, but because we usually agree. In like
>manner, Lucius Cornelius and Quintus Fabius seem cooperate to a large
>degree.
>
>> But there is a wise old saying that one who lies down with dogs, will get
>> up with fleas. Do I see you scratching, Labienus? ;-)
>
>Inasmuch as Formosanus' words have been incorrectly placed in my mouth
>by someone who took them out of context, I suppose so. His post was
>written during a discussion about what the Amici Dignitatis is and ought
>to be. He believes that parties are inevitable, and would like to push
>us into being one. However, we are not one and probably never will be.
>
>Valete
>T Labienus Fortunatus
>
Your answers are honorable ones, Labienus. Thank you for your reply.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question for candidates Moravius Piscinus and Labienus Fortunatus
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:13:16 -0700

Salvete quirities:

> Sulla scripsit:

> So Formosanus is definately guilty of something. In your
> opinion, being that he is definately guilty of "hostile
> words" do you think he is fit to be Praetor?

LIVIA RESPONDEO:

If being guilty of hostile words was a disqualifier of
office in Nova Roma, we'd be hard pressed to find anybody
fit to run for office.

For that matter, look at macronational politics. Oh, would
that all politicians would speak politely all the time.

> Fortunatus scripsit:
> > Inasmuch as Formosanus' words have been incorrectly
> placed in my mouth
> > by someone who took them out of context, I suppose so.
> His post was
> > written during a discussion about what the Amici
> Dignitatis is and ought
> > to be. He believes that parties are inevitable, and
> would like to push
> > us into being one. However, we are not one and probably
> never will be.

> Sulla scripsit:
> Actually no, it wasnt taken out of context. It was a
> declaration of principles
> and intentions. Basically to remove the Republican status
> of our government
> and to replace it with a Greek democracy. And, he implied
> that all of those
> who signed that agreement were in cahoots with essentially
> sedition, if not
> Treason.
>
> Even when I was at my worst in NR (during my Praetorship)
> I have NEVER
> formented civil unrest or revolution. Unfortuantely, this
> faction has been
> tainted as such now by Formosanus's speech!

LIVIA RESPONDEO:

Formosanus' speech was his alone, and done without the
foreknowledge or approval of anybody else on the Amici
Dignitas list. The Amici Dignitas specifically states the
list is for political discussion in a non-partisan
environment, and in a (hopefully) more congenial atmosphere
than sometimes gets encountered here. There's no need to go
looking for conspiracies where there are none.

Formosanus' words belong to him alone. Look at the list.
Several of the co-signers of the Amici Dignitas list have
been loud in their criticisms of Formosanus' post.

To all who have participated in this: Why persist on
grilling Fortunatus about Formosanus' words, especially
since he's been so gracious as to respond to inquiries in
good faith?

Livia Cornelia Aurelia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question for candidates Moravius Piscinus and Labienus Fortunatus
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 22:14:19 -0800

gmvick32@-------- wrote:

> Salvete quirities:
>
>> Sulla scripsit:
>
>> So Formosanus is definately guilty of something. In your opinion,
>> being that he is definately guilty of "hostile words" do you think
>> he is fit to be Praetor?
>
> LIVIA RESPONDEO:
>
> If being guilty of hostile words was a disqualifier of office in Nova
> Roma, we'd be hard pressed to find anybody fit to run for office.
>
> For that matter, look at macronational politics. Oh, would that all
> politicians would speak politely all the time.
>

But He is running for office claiming that he can work with his
colleagues and superiors. Correct? Does the type of behavior he
display show that he can do that? I dont think so!

>> Sulla scripsit:
>> Actually no, it wasnt taken out of context. It was a declaration of
>> principles
>> and intentions. Basically to remove the Republican status of our
>> government
>> and to replace it with a Greek democracy. And, he implied that all
>> of those
>> who signed that agreement were in cahoots with essentially sedition,
>> if not
>> Treason.
>>
>> Even when I was at my worst in NR (during my Praetorship) I have
>> NEVER
>> formented civil unrest or revolution. Unfortuantely, this faction
>> has been
>> tainted as such now by Formosanus's speech!
>
>
> LIVIA RESPONDEO:
>
> Formosanus' speech was his alone, and done without the foreknowledge
> or approval of anybody else on the Amici Dignitas list. The Amici
> Dignitas specifically states the list is for political discussion in a
> non-partisan environment, and in a (hopefully) more congenial
> atmosphere than sometimes gets encountered here. There's no need to
> go looking for conspiracies where there are none.

How can you have a non-partisan list when the first post was essential
remove the powers that be in NR? Change everything, remove the
Republican Safeguards that made Rome Republican?

>
> Formosanus' words belong to him alone. Look at the list. Several of
> the co-signers of the Amici Dignitas list have been loud in their
> criticisms of Formosanus' post.
>

Your right. I am on that list. I was immediately told by supporters
when Formosanus made that speech.

>
> To all who have participated in this: Why persist on grilling
> Fortunatus about Formosanus' words, especially since he's been so
> gracious as to respond to inquiries in good faith?

Because, its a symbol He is running for a Curule Magistrate position.
He has opened himself to this type of questioning. The Senators and
Magistrates in Nova Roma have put in blood sweat and tears to help this
organization. We have put in our most valuable resource, Time! And, we
believe in what our website says. We are a Roman Organization. Not an
Athenian Greek Democracy. If he wants democracy he can start his own
Athenian city state.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Candidacy For Quaestor
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:02:41 -0500 (EST)

Salve, Citizens of Nova Roma;

I stand today before you in the white toga of a Candidate for Magistrate
seeking the office of Quaestor.

I come to you fresh from a year serving you as Junior Consul, and as
Legate for the Regio of Connecticut of the Provincia Nova Britannia..

I have been asked to continue my service as a Magistrate for Nova Roma
by both Citizens and Senatorial Colleagues whose opinion and counsel
that I value, and because I believe there are several areas in Nova
Roma where I may put my experience to work for the benefit of the
micronation.

I have completed 20 years in Military Naval Service (US Submarine
Service), and 20 years in Naval / Maratime Shipbuilding, as my primary
vocations, and am now retired, My avocations are 20 years of service to
my Local Government as the Chairman of the Zoning Board of Appeals,
Active as an Officer in six Reenactment Organizations, and 30+ years as
a Boy Scout Leader. I hold a Master's Degree in Education and Teaching
Credentials for History and English in the state of California.

I have completed the Cursus Honorium within Nova Roma, serve as a member
of the Senate of Nova Roma, founded the Sodalitas Militarium and the
Sodalitas Egressus both of which I am honored to serve as the Praefectus
Fabrum, and I have completed the term (5 months) of the Edior of the
Eagle, at the request of Senator Germanicus, then serving as Dictator.
I have also served as Consular Advisor to two previously serving Consuls
at thier request. I have been honored with the Military rank of
Tribunas Militum Laticlavius within Nova Roma.

I most humbly request your consideration and support for my candidacy,
if you have found my service to the Citizens of Nova Roma to be
satisfactory in these past years.

Vale, Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question for candidates Moravius Piscinus and Labienus Fortunatus
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:47:02 -0700

Salvete Quirities:

> > LIVIA scripsit:
> >> Formosanus' speech was his alone, and done without the
> foreknowledge
> > or approval of anybody else on the Amici Dignitas list.
> The Amici
> > Dignitas specifically states the list is for political
> discussion in a
> > non-partisan environment, and in a (hopefully) more
> congenial
> > atmosphere than sometimes gets encountered here.
> There's no need to
> > go looking for conspiracies where there are none.
>

> Sulla scripsit:

> How can you have a non-partisan list when the first post
> was essential
> remove the powers that be in NR? Change everything,
> remove the
> Republican Safeguards that made Rome Republican?
>

LIVIA RESPONDEO:
Let me be more clear. In my own opinion, Formosanus' post
was inappropriate to the intent of the Amici Dignitas list.
Hence the criticism it has drawn. Regardless of what
Formosanus intimated in that post, it is not the universally
held opinion of everybody on the Amici Dignitas list.

This is NOT to say anything about Formosanus' overall
participation in the list. As far as I am concerned, he is
as welcome there as he ever was. I reserve the right to
either agree or disagree with him on any individual thing he
says, but do not make the error of associating his
inappropriate post with the intentions of the founders of
the Amici Dignitas or the agreement of those of us who
joined into it later.

> >Livia scripsit: To all who have participated in this:
> Why persist on grilling
> > Fortunatus about Formosanus' words, especially since
> he's been so
> > gracious as to respond to inquiries in good faith?
>
> Sulla scripsit: Because, its a symbol He is running for a
> Curule Magistrate position.
> He has opened himself to this type of questioning. The
> Senators and
> Magistrates in Nova Roma have put in blood sweat and tears
> to help this
> organization. We have put in our most valuable resource,
> Time! And, we
> believe in what our website says. We are a Roman
> Organization. Not an
> Athenian Greek Democracy. If he wants democracy he can
> start his own
> Athenian city state.

LIVIA RESPONDEO:
My friend Fortunatus has done nothing to suggest he wants
Athenian Greek Democracy. I remind the people of this list
that Fortunatus is one of the long standing Senators and
Magistrates who has put in much blood, sweat, and tears to
help Nova Roma. He too has put in his time. He too
believes in Nova Roma as a Roman organization. What is
Fortunatus guilty of?? Signing onto a list that serves to
discuss the politics behind Nova Roma, ostensibily because
he enjoys debates of Roman political theory. Surely it's
not being suggested that political debate is non-Roman?

The evolution of Nova Roma is a dynamic thing. We have
books and journals from which to draw knowledge, certainly.
But that book learning is subject to interpretation. As I
see it, the Amici Dignitas is seeking to establish an
environment for dispassionate study of political theory,
which may or may not eventually be adopted as practice by
Nova Roma, assuming it survives the process of finding its
way into working practice.

I'm a newcomer to Dignitas, perhaps the original members
will disagree with my view. There is one key point that
needs to be made though. Anybody regardless of political
viewpoint is absolutely welcome to join the list and partake
of the discussion. That's what it's there for.

Livia Cornelia Aurelia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Announcement of Candidacy
From:	"william wheeler" <holyconelia@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 06:41:23 -0000

I stand before you at the urging of my fellow Citizens and
magistrates clad in the chalk white toga and offer myself as a
servant of our Republic. I cannot say that I had planned to run for
office this year, but am nonetheless asking for your vote in the
coming election for the office of rogator.

Marcus Cornelius Felix Pontiff
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question for candidates Moravius Piscinus and Labienus Fortunatus
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 30 Nov 2000 22:46:41 -0800

gmvick32@-------- wrote:

> Salvete Quirities:
>
> > > LIVIA scripsit:
> > >> Formosanus' speech was his alone, and done without the
> > foreknowledge
> > > or approval of anybody else on the Amici Dignitas list.
> > The Amici
> > > Dignitas specifically states the list is for political
> > discussion in a
> > > non-partisan environment, and in a (hopefully) more
> > congenial
> > > atmosphere than sometimes gets encountered here.
> > There's no need to
> > > go looking for conspiracies where there are none.
> >
>
> > Sulla scripsit:
>
> > How can you have a non-partisan list when the first post
> > was essential
> > remove the powers that be in NR? Change everything,
> > remove the
> > Republican Safeguards that made Rome Republican?
> >
>
> LIVIA RESPONDEO:
> Let me be more clear. In my own opinion, Formosanus' post
> was inappropriate to the intent of the Amici Dignitas list.
> Hence the criticism it has drawn. Regardless of what
> Formosanus intimated in that post, it is not the universally
> held opinion of everybody on the Amici Dignitas list.
>
> This is NOT to say anything about Formosanus' overall
> participation in the list. As far as I am concerned, he is
> as welcome there as he ever was. I reserve the right to
> either agree or disagree with him on any individual thing he
> says, but do not make the error of associating his
> inappropriate post with the intentions of the founders of
> the Amici Dignitas or the agreement of those of us who
> joined into it later.
>

Thank you for that. :)

>
> > >Livia scripsit: To all who have participated in this:
> > Why persist on grilling
> > > Fortunatus about Formosanus' words, especially since
> > he's been so
> > > gracious as to respond to inquiries in good faith?
> >
> > Sulla scripsit: Because, its a symbol He is running for a
> > Curule Magistrate position.
> > He has opened himself to this type of questioning. The
> > Senators and
> > Magistrates in Nova Roma have put in blood sweat and tears
> > to help this
> > organization. We have put in our most valuable resource,
> > Time! And, we
> > believe in what our website says. We are a Roman
> > Organization. Not an
> > Athenian Greek Democracy. If he wants democracy he can
> > start his own
> > Athenian city state.
>
> LIVIA RESPONDEO:
> My friend Fortunatus has done nothing to suggest he wants
> Athenian Greek Democracy. I remind the people of this list
> that Fortunatus is one of the long standing Senators and
> Magistrates who has put in much blood, sweat, and tears to
> help Nova Roma. He too has put in his time. He too
> believes in Nova Roma as a Roman organization. What is
> Fortunatus guilty of?? Signing onto a list that serves to
> discuss the politics behind Nova Roma, ostensibily because
> he enjoys debates of Roman political theory. Surely it's
> not being suggested that political debate is non-Roman?
>
> The evolution of Nova Roma is a dynamic thing. We have
> books and journals from which to draw knowledge, certainly.
> But that book learning is subject to interpretation. As I
> see it, the Amici Dignitas is seeking to establish an
> environment for dispassionate study of political theory,
> which may or may not eventually be adopted as practice by
> Nova Roma, assuming it survives the process of finding its
> way into working practice.
>
> I'm a newcomer to Dignitas, perhaps the original members
> will disagree with my view. There is one key point that
> needs to be made though. Anybody regardless of political
> viewpoint is absolutely welcome to join the list and partake
> of the discussion. That's what it's there for.

I am referring to Formosanus. As you stated it was Formosanus's words.
And he is running for Praetor. And with that means that one must have the
ability to work with others. Those who agree with him and those that do
not. To date, Formosanus has not displayed the ability to work with those
he disagrees with. If anyone has any doubts PLEASE read M. Cassius's
response to Formosanus's speech on that very list! :)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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Subject:	[novaroma] Edictum of Q. Fabius Maximus: Budget deadline extension
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 04:41:51 EST

Salvete Conscript Fathers and citizens of Rome.
Because of the tax issue and the election, the annual budget was not
presented to the Senate today a.d.I Kal.Dec. (Nov 30) in accordance to
Section V, Part B. of the Constitution.

I therefore extend the deadline to a.d. XVI Kal. Ian. (Dec 16)
We will hold our last Senate Call of the year, a.d. XIV Kal. Ian. (Dec. 18)
So the budget will be reviewed by the Senate at that time.
Valete!
Q. Fabius Maximus
Senior Consul

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Subject:	[novaroma] Diocletianus for Praetor (quite long)
From:	"Caius Flavius Diocletianus" <3s@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 10:42:38 +0100

Caius Flavius Diocletianus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Citizens,

standing here in my whitened toga, I want to give you some more information
about my curriculum vitae and my plans as Praetor Urbanus.

I�m 31 years old and I live in Germany, where I served my country as a
soldier (paratroops) before entering the public service. I studied Public
and Business Administration. Now, I�m a high ranking official in a german
city government, responsible for organization, marketing, PR, information
technologies and protected heritages. Before a few weeks, I was elected to
an office which can be described as "Chief Administration Officer and Deputy
of the Mayor". So I made a really roman way of life until now: Serving as
soldier and civil official.

In my real-life-job I had the opportunity to collect wide-range experiences
in using laws, a good experience for the office of Praetor. My
administrative skills and experiences would be of great value for our young
nation.

I joined our fair Republic this year, and shortly after joining, I offered
my services to the Republic. So I was appointed Legatus Germaniae in May. My
primary task was the development of the infrastructure of the Provincia
Germania by installing a provincial website. This large amount of work was
completed within four weeks. The Germania Website is now one of the most
developed provincial websites of Nova Roma. The costs I paid from my own
pocket.

Another successful project was the impelementation of a cooperation between
several provinces, called "Limes Cooperation".

I�m quite familiar with the roman political system, both ancient and modern.
Our young republic needs the best motivated and qualified people available
in it�s government, and I�m sure that I�m one of them.

As a Praetor Urbanus, I would act according to current Nova Roma law. I you
elect me, I would offer my collega a good cooperation in all questions to
handle. The main task would be the maintaining and improvement of our legal
system. It�s roots are the laws of our famous ancestors, but these laws are
not suitable for an internet-based micronation in general without
modifications. We are all citizens of various macronations. Our political
sense was influenced by modern political systems fo the macronations we live
in. Several online-debates made that clear. Remember the Fascist-debate on
the main-list. Of course, we all try to think as romans, we are proud of our
Romanitas, our Virtues and the great history of our ancestors. This is "the
common sense", to avoid the word "ideology",of our nation.

But our Nation is dependent on reaching quite all roman-thinking people on
this planet. This is why the citizenship is open to all. They are all
invited to join us and make our nation stronger and stronger. But what
happened, when they joined? They have to get some orientation in our nation,
our political system. As Legatus Germaniae I had several contacts with new
citizens asking for advice what they should do at first. Language problems
had to be solved. And, most important, the new citizens have to understand
our political system, if they should become an active part of our society.
These are the basic problems to solve in the future. These are the reasons
why we should improve our legal system with some modern elements. These are
the reasons why we should translate our laws into the other native languages
of our citizens. Because we have to give them orientation. Because we have
to give them a homeland.

I invite all citizens to contact me, or to view my candidates page:
www.diocletian.de/elect/diocletianus/ .

Valete
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Candidate for Praetor Urbanus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Some Comments about the Candidates
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 05:42:14 -0500 (EST)

Salvete, Citizens of Nova Roma;

As I review the growing list of Candidates for the coming election, I
feel compelled to make some pertinent comments here based on my
observations and experience in NR. To do this properly, I should, I
suppose, write a separate message regarding each, but in the interest of
saving some space during this period, I shall combine my comments into a
single message, hoping that you will have the patience to wade through
the comments:

Senator Cinncinatus has been a long time Mentor and friend. He has
certainly shown his staying power within NR and has served the
Micronation well in several offices and instances. As his Consular
Advisor, I found him to be reasonable in listening to my suggestions,
and willing to make hard decisions with a minimum of fuss. His support
of the Religio and of the Political Aspects of NR have been continuous
and over the long haul very supportive of the micronation. I know him
to be a hard worker, one who will get things done, and who has shown his
love and affection for this micronation in a hundred different ways. I
strongly support him for the office of Censor.

Senator Fortunatus has been acting as a member of my Consular Staff for
a half year, and has shown himself to be a reasonable and thoughtful
gentleman. He is a thinker, who is devoted to NR and who is not afraid
to work for her betterment. He has proven to be of great assistance to
me as Consul, and has provided many special services as well as acted as
a sounding board for my suggestions. We have not always agreed, but our
disagreements have been so gentlemenly and so well modulated that he is
one of the few people in NR that I would be willing to confide in
regardless of the topic. I trust his ideas, and his logic.

Quaestor Venator, the "Old War Horse" who served with me as Quaestor,
and who is probably one of the few in Nova Roma who comes the closest to
living up to all the Roman Virtues. He also has the best for Nova Roma
at heart and is not afraid to put work into his ideas to make them take
root. Venator is one of the faithful strength members in the Nova Roma
ship that provides stability, flexibility and dependability. I have the
utmost confidence in anything he says or undertakes to do.

Cornicularis Aurelius Tiberius presently serves as my Adjutant, and is a
member in good standing of the Sodalitas Militarium. He has at my
request worked out several detailed prblems and planned programs with a
great outpouring of work and effort. He has willingly spent his efforts
at my bidding and provided information at my rerquest during his roughly
half year of service with me. I believe him fully qualified for
whatever office he believes himself qualified to undertake.

Senator Marcus Julianus is a former Consul who first welcomed me to Nova
Roma. His has been a voice of reason and quiet determination since I
have been in Nova Roma. During my service as Editor of Eagle he
supported the printing of the Newsletter and also added articles to my
efforts, as virtually the only person to do so. I would welcome his
return to the office of Consul and settle myself to again learn from his
manner, and his gentle but efficient work for NR. He has been willing
to answer my questions during my period of service and was one of the
first Magistartes to urge me first to run for a Magistarte's Office and
later to complete the Cursus Honorium.

Senator Vado has served as a Consular Advisor and my Religio Chaplain
for the last year. He has been very forthright in his assistance to me,
and has put together a smooth and well-operating Provincial
Organization. His detailed administrative activities within the
Provincia Britannia and his efforts as a member of my Consular Staff,
certainly as well as his addition to the Senate reflects a great love
and detailed interest in Nova Roma. He has certainly demonstrated to me
his willingness to work hard for NR and to support those things for
which our micronation stands.

Senator Germanicus has certainly given adequate proof of his
organizational abilities and devotion to Nova Roma. It was he who chose
me to finish out a year's term as Editor of the Eagle, and who has
served as a shrewd member of the Senate often pointing out those vital
items and ideas that often get lost during a difficult debate. He is a
cool individual under pressure, has demonstrated again and again his
ability to make hard decisions, and has demonstrated to all his devotion
to this micronation.

Tribune Australicus has been a very good Tribune over the last year,
considering the handicaps under which he has labored. He has done his
work well, and while hueing to the line has also served in another way
to show his devotion to NR by voicng his well-thought out views and his
opinions for consideration by those whom he served. He is an outspoken
individual and not afraid to put forward his views in support of our
micronation. While we have not always agreed, we have on some subjects
agreed to disagree and have in my estimation worked well together. He
also is a thinking man who cherishes the micronation and who is not
afraid to work for it.

Senator Maximus, who for the last year has served as my Co-Consul. We
have worked together like a pair of hands, each doing that which they do
best, and each supplementing the other as needed. I have been
exceedingly fortunate in being able to serve with such a man as
Co-Consul. He is an industrious worker, blunt of speech on occasion and
a real scholar of Roman Antiquities. He has on many occasions set the
mark for me, when I might have relaxed, and during an unforseen illness
filled in for me without complaint or comment. He now seeks to finish
what he has begun in the area of Civil Law, and I believe that with his
proven industry and agressive demeanor he will do NR proud in the coming
year.

Consular Scriba Pompeia Cornelia, my Scriba for the past year was the
best choice I could make for such a position. She is at once quiet and
dignified in her demeanor and correspondence. She has demonstrated a
continuing ability to be on top of items of particular and routine
intereset to me and my office. Her personal and her business support of
the Office of Consul was Superb. I could not have asked better. Over
the year she has also taken on other positions relating to the
Sodalitas, as well as keeping me up to date on my duties and activities.
She is beginning the long road in NR service and in my estimation she is
fully qualified for whatever position she believes herself qualified to
undertake, and I certainly advise all who have a chance to vote for her
to do so, I certainly will!!

Sertorius has been a member of my staff for approx.6 months and has done
an excellet job in preparing organizational layouts for my
consideration. He has a strong grasp upon the specific skills needed
for Staff work and has carried out such to my extreme satisfaction.
Altough young of age he has proven to me that his drive, attention to
detail, and his consistant hard work and timely submissions have more
than earned him recognition as a Magistrate of Nova Roma.

I wish to assure the Citizens of Nova Roma that if the name of a
candiddate does not appear in the above list, it simply means that I do
not have sufficient knowledge of the indvidual's capbility to be able to
comment on thier suitability for office in NR, nothing more.

I thank you most sincerely for your patience in reading this long
message, and may some of the points made here, assist you in some small
way in your decisions in the comng elections. Whatever your views and
whatever Candidates that you prefer, I hope you will will take the time
to cast your vote. This is your chance to have a say who will represent
you in the coming year!!

Valete, Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens
Senator et Consul

Candidate for Quaestor

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Citizenship of Albinus
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 04:16:28 -0800

Ave,

I have been waiting for Pater Approval from Q. Sertorius. I have sent 2
emails to him with no response. One recently bounced. (So Q.Sertorius,
please contact me!) However, I have not gotten any email from Titus
Sertorius. Please have him contact me off list and I can rectify this. :)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

marcusaemiliusscaurus@-------- wrote:

> Salve Quirites,
>
> My apologies for cluttering up the already busy main list for this
> message which is really for the Censors.
>
> Sulla, I understand your supposed absence should make things harder
> for Marius and his Censorial Scriba, but it should not slow down Nova
> Roma's inflow of citizens.
>
> A good friend of mine outside of Nova Roma is Marcus Brown, who, a
> couple of months ago, sent in his citizenship application to be known
> as Titus Sertorius Albinus. On receiving no reply, a week or two ago
> he sent message to the Censors asking what had happened. Still no
> reply. So he e-mailed me, me being the only Nova Roman he currently
> knows well. So I have posted this message on the main list.
>
> Perhaps you check the message board more often than your e-mail box?
>
> Valete,
> Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Citizenship of Albinus
From:	marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 12:29:55 -0000

Salve Quirites,

My apologies for cluttering up the already busy main list for this
message which is really for the Censors.

Sulla, I understand your supposed absence should make things harder
for Marius and his Censorial Scriba, but it should not slow down Nova
Roma's inflow of citizens.

A good friend of mine outside of Nova Roma is Marcus Brown, who, a
couple of months ago, sent in his citizenship application to be known
as Titus Sertorius Albinus. On receiving no reply, a week or two ago
he sent message to the Censors asking what had happened. Still no
reply. So he e-mailed me, me being the only Nova Roman he currently
knows well. So I have posted this message on the main list.

Perhaps you check the message board more often than your e-mail box?

Valete,
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censor's absence. :)
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 04:19:52 -0800

marcusaemiliusscaurus@-------- wrote:

> Salve Quirites,
>
> My apologies for cluttering up the already busy main list for this
> message which is really for the Censors.
>
> Sulla, I understand your supposed absence should make things harder
> for Marius and his Censorial Scriba, but it should not slow down Nova
> Roma's inflow of citizens.
>

And, I guess now would be a good time for me to announce. I wont be taking
a leave of absence til the voting starts. :) Becuase at that time we cannot
process applications anyway! :)

As I stated in a post recently yesterday, I cannot take a leave of absence
while we have pending applications it wouldnt be fair for our new citizens
to be deprived of a right to vote in an very important election!

Since my announced leave of absence I have approved about 20 applications.
If any of you have noticed we are almost at the 600 citizen mark! Another
milestone for Nova Roma.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Candidacy for Vigintisexviri
From:	IuliusCamillus@--------
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 08:41:37 EST

Salvete ~

I declare myself a candidate for Rogator, sorry about the
confusion, I guess my coffee was not strong enough this morning to ensure I
fully stated my intent.

Valete
Camillus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Diocletianus for Praetor (quite long)
From:	RexMarcius@--------
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 08:48:12 EST

Salvete cives Novae Romae!

This is, I believe, the right time to state publicly my support for Caius Flavius Diocletianus's candidateship for praetor urbanus.

I have known Caius for quite some time now as my legate and I can say with great admiration that I have rarely met anyone as efficient and forthright as him. He certainly deserves praise for what he has done for Provincia Germania and its citizens and also for the Limes Co-operation. If you have not seen the web-site he created...go there! it is to be found under www.novaroma.de/nr

All those new citizens who first take part in a Nova Roma election: Here is an example of how fast and how successful you can become involved in Nova Roma affairs. He is one of YOU, a relative newcomer to our republic....but look at what he has achieved in such a short time! Just compare in the Archives how often he has given sound advice in the discussions on the mainlist with the record of an old established politician as e.g. our Tribune Tarquinius Caesar who, I am happy to see now, is still among us and working hard for the plebs!! (I had my worries for his well-being for quite some time now).

For Caius Flavius Diocletianus to be one of our next Praetores Urbani would in my mind not only bestow honour on his home province but on our beloved res publica in general. Please vote for him and also follow his example!

Ave et Vale
Marcus Marcius Rex
citizen
Homo Novus
Candidate for Censor

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Candidacy For Quaestor
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 08:51:46 -0500

Salve;

I cannot adequately express my admiration for Marcus Minucius Audens. While
no one can be expected to agree on every particular issue of policy, Audens
has proven himself to be an extraordinarily fair-minded, hard-working, and
level-headed man. I thank him for his past and continued service to our fair
Republic, and heartily endorse him for the position of Quaestor.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul

> -----Original Message-----
> From: jmath669642reng@-------- [mailto:jmath669642reng@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 11:03 PM
> To: novaroma@--------; jmath669642reng@webtv.net
> Subject: [novaroma] Candidacy For Quaestor
>
>
> Salve, Citizens of Nova Roma;
>
> I stand today before you in the white toga of a Candidate for Magistrate
> seeking the office of Quaestor.
>
> I come to you fresh from a year serving you as Junior Consul, and as
> Legate for the Regio of Connecticut of the Provincia Nova Britannia..
>
> I have been asked to continue my service as a Magistrate for Nova Roma
> by both Citizens and Senatorial Colleagues whose opinion and counsel
> that I value, and because I believe there are several areas in Nova
> Roma where I may put my experience to work for the benefit of the
> micronation.
>
> I have completed 20 years in Military Naval Service (US Submarine
> Service), and 20 years in Naval / Maratime Shipbuilding, as my primary
> vocations, and am now retired, My avocations are 20 years of service to
> my Local Government as the Chairman of the Zoning Board of Appeals,
> Active as an Officer in six Reenactment Organizations, and 30+ years as
> a Boy Scout Leader. I hold a Master's Degree in Education and Teaching
> Credentials for History and English in the state of California.
>
> I have completed the Cursus Honorium within Nova Roma, serve as a member
> of the Senate of Nova Roma, founded the Sodalitas Militarium and the
> Sodalitas Egressus both of which I am honored to serve as the Praefectus
> Fabrum, and I have completed the term (5 months) of the Edior of the
> Eagle, at the request of Senator Germanicus, then serving as Dictator.
> I have also served as Consular Advisor to two previously serving Consuls
> at thier request. I have been honored with the Military rank of
> Tribunas Militum Laticlavius within Nova Roma.
>
> I most humbly request your consideration and support for my candidacy,
> if you have found my service to the Citizens of Nova Roma to be
> satisfactory in these past years.
>
> Vale, Very Respectfully;
> Marcus Minucius Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
>
> http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Question from Gryllus
From:	Gian G Reali <piscinus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 09:09:01 -0800

Salvete Gryllus et omnes Quiritis

In the ancient Republic of Rome all citizens were welcomed into the
public baths. There disrobed they stood before one another for all to
see. The noble man still held a noble bearing, the educated man his wise
countenance. And so too, in toga or naked, a fool remains a fool, and a
puppet still can only mouth the words of his master.
Today in Nova Roma we sit behind our terminals, hiding from the sight of
others, crouched down behind assumed names and lengthy titles. Some may
think they are well hidden. Some may think they can command authority
merely by the office they hold. But in truth we all stand in this forum
more naked today than any ancient Roman ever had in the past. By your
words alone is your character known to others. We can still tell who is
possessed of a noble spirit, and who may be wise, by the words they
speak. And we still may tell who is a fool, and who the puppet.

When I entered this forum in the past, to discuss or ask questions about
our res pubilica's Constitution, it was to defend that instrument of our
governance against a magistrate who sought to abuse his authority by
expanding on it, and who also perversely undermined the Constitution by
assuming powers he did not have by it. Another time I stood in this
forum and referred to historical examples to show that our Senior Consul
was wrong when he posted that Romans in the ancient Republic held no
rights. Today that consul seeks the honor of being a Praetor Urbanus.
The same Fabius who claimed that citizens of Nova Roma have no rights.
Weigh the words and deeds carefully. Who among us, Gryllus, defends the
Vedian Constitution? Who stands to defend the rights our Constitution
claims for our citizens? Whose voice demands to be heard in the name of
justice, and who assumes titles to play at being a puppet master?

I join with the candidates for consul, Cassius Julianus and Moravius
Vado, in calling for a judicial system being delineated for Nova Roma.
One with clear and understandable procedures written down for all
Citizens to see. No longer should it be allowed for an individual to
secretly present charges before a Praetor, without the defendant ever
told of the charges, or even that a hearing is being held without his
presence. No longer should we allow citizens to be judged in secret
where they are denied the right to a defense. Such a call, Gryllus, for
the creation of a legal system is by no means contrary to the Vedian
Constitution or to ancient precedent. The Vedian Constitution does
provide that our Comitia be held as public courts. The Vedian
Constitution provides that each Comitia may pass legislature to govern
its own procedures. Were I elected Tribune Plebis, I would consult with
my colleague, as I have before consulted with Labienus Fortunatus, and
write proposed plebiscita to govern the procedures of the Comitia Tributa
Plebis. We would then take it a step further. Working with the elected
Praetors and Consuls to integrate the Comitia Tributa Plebis into and
over all judicial system. Our aim here is not to tear down the
Constitution, but to build it up. To strengthen it. And to use the
Vedian Constitution to defend the rights of Citizens as was its purpose,
rather than to hide behind its ambiguities as some others have done in
the past.

Gryllus, you ask if I would attempt to introduce foreign elements into
our society that so honors the Republic of ancient Rome. Am I one who
affixes Greek to his name? My family's tradition is found in the deep
ravines of the Apennines. In my veins run the blood of Hernicii,
Marruccini, and Marsi. Some of my ancestors fell before the Colline
Gate, defending Rome against the advance of a rebellious army. I for one
do not seek to innovate against the Republican tradition. The Glory of
ancient Rome is the Republic. It cannot be found among the ruins of
Caesars. Not with petty dictators, proudful kings, or boastful generals
who strut about to display their titles. The Glory that was Rome was
built by a common people, standing up for their rights. The Republic was
a government held by ALL the people in common. The Republic was not
simply the Senate. It was not only the Senate and its magistrates. A
great dynamic of the Republic, one we still admire to this day, was the
Comitia of the people assembled. The parliamentary system you enjoy
today in Portugal is a spiritual heir to the Comitia Tributa Plebis. The
reason that today there are so many governments based on republican
structures and democratic principles is that other men and women joined
together, after the example of the Plebeians of Rome, and overthrew the
dictators and would be Caesars that so plagued the last century. Before
there stood a Mandela, a Martin Luther King Jr. or a Gandhi, there
appeared in Rome men like Valerius Publicola, Terentilius Harsa, Licinius
Stolo and Sextus Lateranus, to name only a very few. Men and women who
stood up for human dignity and social justice. There lies the true Roman
glory. An example for all of us in Nova Roma to consider and to follow.

Rather than introduce foreign and alien innovations into our res
publica, I seek to restore the ancient tradition. I again join with our
candidates for consul, Cassius Julianus and Moravius Vado, in calling for
the building up of the Nova Roma infrastructure. As a Tribunus Plebis,
for my part in that effort, I would seek to restore the Comitia Tributa
Plebis of Nova Roma on the model of the ancient Republic. I would do so
by exercising the traditional tribuni potestes, and by asserting
plebiscita of the ancient Comitia be reintroduced. I support the Lex
Icilia of 282 AUC, the Leges Horatia Valeria of 304 AUC, the Lex Genucia
of 411 AUC, Leges Publiliae of 414 AUC, and the Lex Hortensia of 468 AUC
which defined the authority of the Comitia and its officers. But that is
not to say that I would support implementing all the ancient laws in our
modern world. I would not support a Lex Voconia that set limits on
women, but I do support the Lex Canuleia of 308 AUC. The Villius Lex
Annalis that set age limits for magistrates I would open for discussion,
and seek to modify it to the needs of our own community in Nova Roma.
What I advocate, Gryllus, is only that Nova Roma live up to the Preamble
of the Vedian Constitution. "We hereby declare our Nation to stand as a
BEACON for those who would recreate THE BEST OF ANCIENT ROME...NOVA ROMA
shall endeavor to exist...as the modern restoration of THE ANCIENT ROMAN
REPUBLIC."

Di vos incolumes custodiant in morem maiorum rem publicam liberam.

Gn. Moravius Piscinus
Cives Novae Romae
Tribunus Plebis petitor
Flamen Cerealis
Retarius et Rogator Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Rogator Sodalitatis Musarum
Amicus Dignitatis
________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Announcement of Candidacy
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 09:04:29 -0500

Salvete;

I find myself in quite an uncomfortable position; I must speak out against a
candidate for office.

There is no office within Nova Roma that demands the virtue of Veritas than
that of Rogator. As the guardians of our very electoral and voting
processes, the Rogatores must of all people be above reproach insofar as
their honesty is concerned, lest their pronouncements regarding the outcomes
of elections and votes be called into question.

Unfortunately, Marcus Cornelius Felix's honesty is quite suspect. He
approached our Pontifex Maximus and myself with wild tales of an
organization that did not, in fact, exist, and was indeed appointed to the
very priesthood he holds under false pretenses. His predilection to stray
from the truth is so marked as to possibly be regarded as pathological.

It is with great sadness that I must urge my fellow Citizens not to support
his candidacy for the position of Rogator. I fear that his pronouncements
would always, at least in my mind, be suspect.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul

> -----Original Message-----
> From: william wheeler [mailto:holyconelia@--------]
> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 1:41 AM
>
> I stand before you at the urging of my fellow Citizens and
> magistrates clad in the chalk white toga and offer myself as a
> servant of our Republic. I cannot say that I had planned to run for
> office this year, but am nonetheless asking for your vote in the
> coming election for the office of rogator.
>
> Marcus Cornelius Felix Pontiff

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question for candidates Moravius Piscinus and Labienus Fortunatus
From:	RexMarcius@--------
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 09:15:24 EST

Salve Tribune!

Please let me assure you that, at least in my mind, your work as Tribunus plebis can be held as an example of how the office should be conducted. This is also why I displayed your crucial opinion on the gender edictum in the "digestes" section of the Praetorium at Provincia Germania website (www.novaroma.de).

No one can blame you for what your colleague in office has failed to do.

I hope that Titus Labienus, whose opinions I greatly value, will be elected to follow in your footsteps and be blessed with a colleague that takes his office more seriously than the other Tribune we had.

Ave et Vale
Marcus Marcius Rex
Civis
Homo novus
Candidate for Censor

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Citizenship of Albinus
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 08:12:27 -0600

1 Dec 2000

Salve Censor

I had sent approval and have been in email contact with Titus. We have both
been waiting for further developments. There must have been some problem,
but I Quintus Sertorius would be happy to accept Titus Sertorius Albinus as
a member of my Gens. If there is anything else that is required of please
inform me and I work to solve the matter.

Vale

Quintus Sertorius

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lucius Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
To: <marcusaemiliusscaurus@-------->
Cc: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Citizenship of Albinus

> Ave,
>
> I have been waiting for Pater Approval from Q. Sertorius. I have sent 2
> emails to him with no response. One recently bounced. (So Q.Sertorius,
> please contact me!) However, I have not gotten any email from Titus
> Sertorius. Please have him contact me off list and I can rectify this. :)
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Censor
>
> marcusaemiliusscaurus@-------- wrote:
>
> > Salve Quirites,
> >
> > My apologies for cluttering up the already busy main list for this
> > message which is really for the Censors.
> >
> > Sulla, I understand your supposed absence should make things harder
> > for Marius and his Censorial Scriba, but it should not slow down Nova
> > Roma's inflow of citizens.
> >
> > A good friend of mine outside of Nova Roma is Marcus Brown, who, a
> > couple of months ago, sent in his citizenship application to be known
> > as Titus Sertorius Albinus. On receiving no reply, a week or two ago
> > he sent message to the Censors asking what had happened. Still no
> > reply. So he e-mailed me, me being the only Nova Roman he currently
> > knows well. So I have posted this message on the main list.
> >
> > Perhaps you check the message board more often than your e-mail box?
> >
> > Valete,
> > Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Question from Gryllus
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 09:25:58 -0500

Salve;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gian G Reali [mailto:piscinus@--------]
> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 12:09 PM
>
> I join with the candidates for consul, Cassius Julianus and Moravius
> Vado, in calling for a judicial system being delineated for Nova Roma.

<snip>

> I again join with our
> candidates for consul, Cassius Julianus and Moravius Vado, in calling for
> the building up of the Nova Roma infrastructure.

Just to set the record straight; I resent the implication by omission that
I, as a candidate for Consul, do _not_ want to see our legal system worked
out in detail and implemented fairly. Indeed, I placed such a thing as a
priority in my announcement of candidacy, as did Marcus Cassius Julianus and
Vado.

Such a thing has been a need from the very foundation of our Republic, and
is something that has been attempted several times without success, as it is
a Herculean task. It is most properly the work of the Urban Praetors, but
the Consuls too have a role in the implementation of such a system, which
must of course operate within the bounds of our Constitution (with which I
am for obvious reasons quite fluent). As Consul I will absolutely work to
see that the Praetors do their work in this regard soundly and fairly, and
work to see their efforts implemented quickly and efficiently.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Announcement of Candidacy
From:	"william wheeler" <holyconelia@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 15:17:23 -0000

Salve
as not to start a war of words .
I will not be going out for office .
marcus Cornelius Felix

>From: "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
>To: <novaroma@-------->
>Subject: RE: [novaroma] Announcement of Candidacy
>Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 09:04:29 -0500
>
>Salvete;
>
>I find myself in quite an uncomfortable position; I must speak out against
>a
>candidate for office.
>
>There is no office within Nova Roma that demands the virtue of Veritas than
>that of Rogator. As the guardians of our very electoral and voting
>processes, the Rogatores must of all people be above reproach insofar as
>their honesty is concerned, lest their pronouncements regarding the
>outcomes
>of elections and votes be called into question.
>
>Unfortunately, Marcus Cornelius Felix's honesty is quite suspect. He
>approached our Pontifex Maximus and myself with wild tales of an
>organization that did not, in fact, exist, and was indeed appointed to the
>very priesthood he holds under false pretenses. His predilection to stray
>from the truth is so marked as to possibly be regarded as pathological.
>
>It is with great sadness that I must urge my fellow Citizens not to support
>his candidacy for the position of Rogator. I fear that his pronouncements
>would always, at least in my mind, be suspect.
>
>Valete,
>
>Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
>Candidate for Consul
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: william wheeler [mailto:holyconelia@--------]
> > Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 1:41 AM
> >
> > I stand before you at the urging of my fellow Citizens and
> > magistrates clad in the chalk white toga and offer myself as a
> > servant of our Republic. I cannot say that I had planned to run for
> > office this year, but am nonetheless asking for your vote in the
> > coming election for the office of rogator.
> >
> > Marcus Cornelius Felix Pontiff
>

_____________________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Candidacy for Aedilis Plebis
From:	"Marcos Boehme" <m_arminius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 13:24:08 -0300

Marcus Arminius Maior Quiritibus S.P.D.

In this day of Kalends of December, i stand before you to offer my services as Aedilis Plebis for the next year.

I'm a novus homo and a provincial, only 5 months as a citizen. But i'm full of enthusiasm about our micronation, and i expect to be pardoned to "jump" the step of Quaestor in the Cursus Honorum. :)
This is because i think that i can do more as Aedile, looking forward,in colaboration with the other Aediles, Tribunes, magistrates and citizens to work for Nova Roma

More details about me, my qualifications and my platform will be at your disposal a bit later..

Valete
Marcus Arminius Maior
Provincia Brasilia
Paterfamilias Arminiae

Get FREE Email/Voicemail with 15MB at Lycos Communications at http://comm.lycos.com

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Subject:	[novaroma] Towards a Transparent Senate
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 17:49:28 +0100

Salvete Quirites!

Tribunus Plebis Obstinatus has raised some very interesting points
in the post quoted below. Let me first say that I totally agree with
him on the need for the People in Comitia assembled to assume their
rightful r�le as lawmakers and sovereign power in the State.

When we learn in school or elsewhere about Rome, the dignity and
importance of the Senate is always (correctly) stressed, and we are
led to take the viewpoint of some ancient senators and feel that the
Senate was the natural governing body of the Respublica. However, the
Comitia, often presented in a more shadowy way in elementary or
children's books about Rome, were understood in antiquity to be the
gatherings of the Sovereign People. It was they who elected the
magistrates with the executive power and they who passed the true
laws in their own persons, not through mere representatives. It was
also they who insisted on the Tribuni Plebis to protect their
interests against too much influence from the Senate and the rich
minority.

We must go back to history and overcome the misperceptions caused
from our childhoods by sources which emphasised the Senate out of
proportion - in reality the People in their Comitia were intensely
active in the governance of the State. I very much hope that with the
new initiatives already taken by Sura on behalf of the Plebs, the new
Tribunes of the People will indeed get the Comitia up to speed.

*However*, the other worry of Obstinatus I do not share. Certainly,
if the Senate List is passively available to the People, they can use
the Senate e-mail address, which has always been there, to inform the
Senate about their preferences and any useful information or
knowledge they may have on a given issue - and do so in a timely
manner, when it is still useful, without having to try changing a
senatusconsultum after it is a fait accompli, which is very
difficult.

I do not believe with Octavius and Obstinatus that there will be so
very much mail generated from this. How many non-senators will want
to read still more administrative and political verbiage if they can
avoid it? Not many - and those who do will be relatively well
informed people who will often have something meaningful to
contribute. (Indeed, they will be potential senators for the future,
and this would be good training for them.) Nor do I think that they
will expect individual answers from each senator in such
correspondence - that would be overwhelming for the writer!

The Nova Roman Senate is not the U.S. Senate. But the ancient Roman
Senate was not a secretive institution. Meetings were in temples (the
Curia or Senate House was a consecrated temple too) having scarce
windows and large doors which served for ventilation and
illumination. Slaves were often present to set out the senators'
portable seats, write down good speeches, etc., and of course
everything would be discussed in detail with non-senators in the
presence of often intelligent and gossipy slaves in convivia
afterwards. And many Tribunes of the People were present in a central
position in the Senate chamber of the day, any one of which could
choose to convoke the People and tell them anything said or done in
the greatest detail - and with their own interpretation added.

Quirites, it is not a matter of "representation" in the sense of a
representative democracy. It is a matter of openness and
transparency, lack of which inevitably inspires suspicion in modern
people. And especially if the Senate is heavily involved in financial
management, lack of transparency will not long be tolerated. I am
therefore deeply grateful that this issue has been raised in the
Senate. I hope that the Senate will take advantage of this initiative
to set itself above suspicion (even if unjustified) in the clear
light of public day. The result, O Senatores, will be that you will
be better advised by everyone here so that you can better advise the
Respublica.

Valete!

M. Apollonius Formosanus
Candidate for Praetor Urbanus

__________________________-
Obstinatus scripsit:

Salvete Conscript Fathers

Although not a senator, I am moved to comment on this two-part
proposal on the grounds of my responsibility toward maintaining the
letter and spirit of the Constitution. This idea of opening Senate
deliberations to public view, while not technically unconstitutional
(i.e., there is nothing in the Constitution that woould forbid it),
violates the spirit of the Constitution by undermining the basic
structure of Roman government. It shatters the Mos Maiorum. The
Senate is not the governing body of Nova Roma: it is NOT analogous to
the Senate of the United States. The Senate of Nova Roma, like the
Senate of Roma Antiqva, is an un-elected, mainly consultative body of
distinguished elders that is in no way answerable to any electorate
among the citizens. No senator stands for re-election to his Senate
seat. As a repository of experience and wisdom, our Senate *LEADS*
but does NOT *rule* our republic. To make all of the members of the
Senate answerable to the general population for their every opinion
and vote will undermine and weaken that role.

Doubtless some may be thinking that Tribune Australicus has abandoned
his populist sympathies and is seeking to protect the Senate from
criticism and interference. That is not the case. I seek to protect
the Republic from being weakened. The governing body of our Republic
is meant to be the body of its citizens voting in their tribes and
centuries. That is where and how laws are supposed to be made. Owing
in part to the fact that we haven't quite yet made that process work
smoothly and easily, and owing in part to the fact that many of us
tend to think in terms of modern Western (particularly American)
government instead of Roman, and owing in part to what I think is an
almost universal human tendency to look to "leaders" to relieve us of
the responsibility for governing ourselves, we have fallen into some
very un-Roman attitudes toward our government. The people, instead of
acting in their role as the governing body, have fallen into the
habit of looking to the Senate and the magistrates to make their
decisions for them, to arbitrate their conflicts for them, i.e., to
be their government for them. These proposed changes would strengthen
and codify these un-Roman tendencies, and fundamentally change the
nature of our state.

Marcus Octavius Germanicus has very clearly outlined the practical
problems that would follow from the enactment of these proposals, and
they are considerable. Imagine a hundred or more citizens posting
replies, criticisms, support, arguments, and complaints *to the
Senate* in response to *each* opinion or vote expressed by a senator
during the deliberations of a Senate session. And imagine the public
outcry if senators fail to acknowledge and respond to this flood of
input. We would need no Circus Maximus - we would have a Circus
Senatus!

But even more daunting than that rather alarming scenario (isn't
there a movie plot in there, Consul?) is the change that would be
wrought in the very nature of our Roman Republic, and the damage that
would be done to the Mos Maiorum.

I entreat you, Conscript Fathers, to retain your role as leaders and
not to succumb to the temptation to become rulers by inviting the
people to consider you answerable for appeasing their every whim,
need, and desire. Let the people be answerable to each other in their
debates and votes in the Comitia. Maintain the status of the Senate
as it is. Strengthen it. Increase its respect and dignitas. Don't
undermine it and the Republic by enacting these proposals that would
open the doors of the Senate and dilute its wise deliberations with
the shouts of the streets.

Respectfully,

Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus << CANDIDATVS PRAETORIVS >>
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius � � � � � � �
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________

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Subject:	[novaroma] The Cursus Honorum
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 18:02:50 +0100

Salvete Quirites!

Censor Sulla brought up the matter of the Cursus Honorum recently,
and he was correct that it traditionally began with Quaestor. It was
followed by Aedile, Praetor, Consul, and for a lucky few, Censor.
(The last were normally only elected once in five years, so only very
few could hold that postion.) The position of Tribune of the People
was not integrated into this system.

Sulla asked why I did not run for Quaestor first. I note that he did
not ask why my fellow praetorian candidate Diocletianus also had not
been a Quaestor, nor why other, Fabius Maximus, had actually come
down from Consul to run for this office. Nor, for that matter, why N.
Moravius Vado, candidate for Consul has never been Praetor.

The fact of the matter is that the Cursus Honorum has not yet become
our custom in Nova Roma, because we do not have a massive political
class to provide enough experienced talent to offer a choice to
voters at each level yet. Supposedly in the future we will be able to
institute it.

Sulla knows this, of course, and his question stems from the fact
that he dislikes me personally. For new cives, let me explain that
this is due to the fact that I disapprove of administrative actions
and edicta on his part which make it difficult for persons having
differing physical and social genders from adopting a Latin name with
the grammatical gender that corresponds to their sense of sexual
identity. I consider this to be discrimination against sexual
minorities, while he considers it necessary for the wellbeing of Nova
Roma. I would rather be friends with him, as he has worked hard for
Nova Roma and deserves respect for that, but I consider any kind of
discrimination and sexual intolerance to be serious social problems
wherever in the world they be found. I wish he would work together
with me to help end them in our Respublica.

By the way, Sulla mentioned that the Cursus Honorum was honourable.
I am sure that it is, but as a linguistic note, I might mention that
"honos" or "honor" in Latin does not relate to the adjective
"honourable" as in "just and upright", but means "office, position,
award of honour or respect". The word in Latin that more closely
means "honourable" as in "morally right, just, upright" is
"honestus". So, "Cursus Honorum" means "Course of Positions".

Valete!

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus << CANDIDATVS PRAETORIVS >>
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius � � � � � � �
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
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(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________

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Subject:	[novaroma] Cursus Honorum
From:	"L. Tiberius Sardonicus" <sardonicus_@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 12:04:55 -0500

Salvete,

I have only applied three days ago, so I have not been granted citizenship
yet; nor would I expect it so soon. I had planned on not posting to the
list prior to attaining citizenship. However, since I am asking questions
and not stating opinion, I hope this post is not viewed as presumptuous.

I understand that the Cursus Honorum was the expected political career path
for those who aspired to such in Roma Antiqua. Also, from what I
understand, the Cursus Honorum has not, as yet, been formally adopted by
Nova Roma.

Are there any plans to officially institute this particular policy via Lex
or amemdment to the Constitution? Was this a formal policy in Roma Antiqua?

Bene Gratias,

L. Tiberius Sardonicus
Auxillary, Legio VI
Citizenship Application Pends

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Marcos Boehme" <m_arminius@-------->
Reply-To: m_arminius@--------
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Candidacy for Aedilis Plebis
Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 13:24:08 -0300

Marcus Arminius Maior Quiritibus S.P.D.

In this day of Kalends of December, i stand before you to offer my services
as Aedilis Plebis for the next year.

I'm a novus homo and a provincial, only 5 months as a citizen. But i'm full
of enthusiasm about our micronation, and i expect to be pardoned to "jump"
the step of Quaestor in the Cursus Honorum. :)
This is because i think that i can do more as Aedile, looking forward,in
colaboration with the other Aediles, Tribunes, magistrates and citizens to
work for Nova Roma

More details about me, my qualifications and my platform will be at your
disposal a bit later..

Valete
Marcus Arminius Maior
Provincia Brasilia
Paterfamilias Arminiae

Get FREE Email/Voicemail with 15MB at Lycos Communications at
http://comm.lycos.com

_____________________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Cursus Honorum
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:50:34 -0600 (CST)

On Fri, 1 Dec 2000, M. Apollonius Formosanus wrote:

> Sulla knows this, of course, and his question stems from the fact
> that he dislikes me personally. For new cives, let me explain that
> this is due to the fact that I disapprove of administrative actions
> and edicta on his part...

I suspect the dislike is more due to your stated intention of
removing him from office:

MAF: and we must remove the two presently most
MAF: powerful magistrates from office and keep them out for a
MAF: good long time (i.e. one consul and one censor)

Saying merely that he "dislikes" you because you "disapprove" of his
actions falls fall short of the whole truth. It is you who are pursuing
a vendetta against a hard-working and dedicated magistrate, who is
merely trying to defend himself.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
Microsoft delenda est!
http://www.graveyards.com/

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Subject:	[novaroma] Piscinus replies to Vedius
From:	Gian G Reali <piscinus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:31:34 -0800

Tribunus Plebis petitor Gn. Moravius Piscinus Quiritibus SPD:

Referring to the task of formulating a judicial system for Nova Roma,
Vedius scripsit:

<<Such a thing has been a need from the very foundation of our Republic,
and
is something that has been attempted several times without success, as it
is
a Herculean task.>>

Respondeo:

Indeed it is. Mehercule may it be undertaken by magistrates who will
remain in office long enough to complete the task. Not by such who
threaten to resign at every whim, or who walk away from their duties and
commitments, or by those who simply *disappear.* I am willing to work
with anyone elected as Consul or as Praetor, or as my colleague as
Tribune Plebis. But I prefer to support in the election those who I know
will also make themselves available to work with me.

Vedius scripsit:
<<It is most properly the work of the Urban Praetors, but
the Consuls too have a role in the implementation of such a system, which
must of course operate within the bounds of our Constitution (with which
I
am for obvious reasons quite fluent).>>

Respondeo:

In the Vedian Constitution there is mention of the Praetors having the
power to issue edicta in order that they may "administer the law"
(IV.3.b). The same power is granted to the Aediles Curules "to
administer the law" (IV.4.b). The same power is granted to the Aediles
Plebis "to administer the law" (IV.5.a). Why do you assume the words
you wrote apply to only one magistrate, rather than to all those so
stipulated in the Constitution? Where were you earlier, Vedius, when I
discussed this issue with Censor Sulla? You wrote the law, Flavius. Do
you recall what you wrote, or do you merely mouth the words of one who
now calls you from your hibernation?

Vedius scripsit:
<< As Consul I will absolutely work to see that the Praetors do their
work in this regard soundly and fairly, and work to see their efforts
implemented quickly and efficiently.>>

Respondeo:

And do you once again neglect the role of the Tribuni Plebis? The
Comitia Tributa Plebis (III.C.3) has the power "To try legal cases
solely involving members of the plebeian order that do not involve
permanent removal of citizenship." The Comitia may only be called by one
of the Tribuni Plebis (agere cum plebe), as stipulated in the
Constitution (III.C). Not a Consul nor a Praetor may call the Comitia
Tributa Plebis to sit as a court. Do you seek to deny the tribuni
potestes of coercito by which a Tribune called the Comitia to sit in
judgement? In your version of a future judicial system for Nova Roma, do
you seek to exclude the Plebeians?
And what of the other traditional tribuni potestes? Do you forget that
by lex sacrata the Tribunes held the power of auxilium? By lex sacrata
the Tribunes were mandated to keep their houses open, and themselves
available to the public at all times. This was so that they might offer
sanctuary to any who so claimed a need for protection. In the country
where you and I now live there is also an extension of this tribunician
auxilium. We call it Habeus Corpus. The Tribunes in ancient Rome were
not permitted to *disappear,* because to do so would have been regarded
as sacer esto, cursed before the gods for failure in their duties. The
Tribuni Plebis held auxilium to assist Citizens against arbitrary
punishment by magistrates, and generally to defend the rights of all
Citizens. There will be no system of justice in Nova Roma unless it is
designed to protect the rights of all Citizens. That is a role
traditionally assigned to the Tribuni Plebis. Any discussion of
establishing a judicial system must involve the Tribuni Plebis or it is
not a system for justice.
The tribuni potestes I mentioned above extend back to even before the
founding of the concilium plebis in 259 AUC, later reaffirmed in the
Comitia Tributa Plebis that Volero Publilius reformed in 282 AUC. We may
also point out that in 604 AUC the Lex Calpurnia established a special
commission, to be seated permanently, to hear cases of suits by
provincials against the arbitrary actions of provincial governors. The
authority of that court came solely from the Comitia Tributa Plebis, and
extended the tribuni potestes to protect all those who came under Roman
jurisdiction, whether Citizen or not. The institutions and the officers
of the Plebeians have always held a special position in the mos maiorum,
overseeing the judicial system of the ancient Republic of Rome. It was
on account of the Plebeians that Roman law was first written down into
the Twelve Tablets. The very reason Plebeians demanded the law be
written was so that magistrates could not invent the rules as they went
along, or change the rules whenever it pleased their interests. Any
attempt to exclude the Plebeians, the Tribuni Plebis, or the Comitia
Tributa Plebis from the process of formulating a judicial system for Nova
Roma now would not serve the interest of our res publica.
The effort of formulating a judicial system for Nova Roma, like the many
other tasks that lay before us, can only be accomplished by individuals
working collectively. That will require access to the process by
individuals of varied views. It will require lengthy discussions by
people who are committed enough to stay in office long enough to complete
their tasks. It requires individuals who have shown an ability to work
with other individuals, even those with whom they disagree. And when the
elected officials have completed their tasks, it will still remain for
the Citizens to decide, with all Citizens having an opportunity to vote
on the leges.

Di deaeque auctori Novae Romae semper sint.

http://www.diocletian.de/elect/piscinus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Endorsement of Patricia Cassia for Quaestor
From:	"Veronica Moeller" <VMoeller@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 19:40:49 -0000

Ave,

I wish to endorse the candidacy, for Quaestor, of Patricia
Cassia. I value her energy and wisdom in all that she does for
Nova Roma. In the year ahead, Nova Roma shall embark upon
greatness. It is only fitting and proper that she be served by a
citizen as capable and dedicated to her eternal future as the
honorable Patricia Cassia. I would welcome an opportunity to work
along the side of Patricia Cassia in the Treasury of our
micronation , contributing what I can, and learning from a true
leader. I encourage you to vote for her as Quaestor in
the upcoming elections. ---Secunda Cornelia Valeria

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Subject:	[novaroma] Campaign Website
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:46:54 -0500

Salvete;

I have set up a website to keep folks up to date on my take on the issues in
the upcoming election. It's a little sparse right now, but I'll keep adding
to it as the campaign goes on. Plus, as an added bonus, you get to see Yours
Truly in a toga (finally)! The URL:

http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus/index.html

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus
Candidate for Consul

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Cursus Honorum
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 19:46:12 -0000

> I understand that the Cursus Honorum was the expected political
career path
> for those who aspired to such in Roma Antiqua. Also, from what I
> understand, the Cursus Honorum has not, as yet, been formally
adopted by
> Nova Roma.
>
> Are there any plans to officially institute this particular policy
via Lex
> or amemdment to the Constitution? Was this a formal policy in Roma
Antiqua?

It is my understanding that the Cursus Honorum was not enshrined in
law, but was a matter of "mos maiorum" (roughly, "the way things are
done"). In other words, a hallowed but unwritten tradition.

Since Nova Roma has not yet been in existence three years, we cannot
expect the candidates in this year's election to serve this nation in
such a structured fashion (otherwise, we would have few candidates
for high office!).

To turn this into a productive discussion: Can anyone cite an example
from history of a Roman who made Consul without climbing the Cursus
Honorum?

Patricia Cassia

"I've spent my whole life climbing up the Roman cursus honorum
It's all to do with breeding, doesn't matter if you're smart or dumb"
-M. Cassius & P. Cassia, "Roman Republican"

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Subject:	[novaroma] While I am flattered...
From:	Patrick Conlon <cptnapalm@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 14:07:14 -0600

I don't really think it is fair that I count as two people... What I am
refering to is that I am counted twice in my gens. This probably has
something to do with their having been a bit of a problem getting me
added the first time. I am unsure as who exactly is responsible for
changing that page, so I thought that it might be best to post it on the
main list since I am sure one of you knows who to contact. Thank you.

This is the link to my gens page that shows the mistake:
http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/gens?gensid=174

Caius Maximius Crinitus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Personal Information of Q Fabius Maximus
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 16:12:15 EST

Salvete citizens of Rome
Facts about Q. Fabius Maximus, candidate for Praetor Urbanus.
I joined Nova Roma, in August �98. I was the unofficial Plebeian Aedile for
Tribune of the Plebs, Antonius Gryllus Graecus, helping him put the virtual
games, until my gens were raised to Patrician for my efforts to Nova Roma and
I was appointed Curule Aedile. I am a member of the Senate, and was Senior
Consul this year. I'm the Paterfamilias of Gens Fabii. While I am not a
member of the college pontificum I honor the Roman pantheon.
Personal Information
I am the son of an US Air Force Colonel Rt. and a German woman he met on
tour, married and who later became a trial lawyer for the California Labor
Standards Commission. My father upon retiring co-founded Brown Vintners a
wine retailer in Northern CA, later acquired by Hubelin.
I'm of German descent, but received a Classical Education in Europe and the
US, hence my love of all things Roman. While growing up my father was
rotated to many bases around the world, so I have seen many political
systems, albeit looking from the outside in since I was on US bases.
I have a degree in Ancient History minoring in Archeology, a Post Graduate
degree in Medieval History (Tenth Century Byzantine Military Reforms) and
degrees in Radio/TV Production and Film. I collect lead soldiers,
ancient-to-modern, as a hobby. I cast and paint them. I also collect edged
weapons.
I worked as archeologist for Heritage Environmental Services of California
and Baja California, until I decided to go into radio instead. From radio I
went to work for CNN as a segment producer, moving from that to directing
news shows, until I came to LA.
I'm currently one of four owners of Bandwagon Productions, a small production
house in Hollywood, CA. We produce TV Movies, Pilots for TV shows,
commercials and Music Videos.
I'm the author of the following books on the American Civil War, "The Drum
Barracks Grand Tactical Battle Manual of the American Civil War," for the
Drum Barracks Civil War Museum in Wilmington, CA and "Mr. Lincoln's War," an
analysis of small unit tactics in the ACW.
I was the Editor of the Strategos Newsletter, a newsletter devoted to the
study of ancient military tactics. I recently left it to co publish my own
quarterly magazine "The Strategikon."
I also edit and design the monthly newsletter "Women in Theatre" a
publication for the Women in Theatre group in Los Angeles.
My spiritual ancestor is Quintus Fabius Maximus, savior of Rome from Hannibal
Barca the Carthaginian, of "Hannibal ad portas" fame. I honor him, since
without his cleverness and tenacity, Rome may have been reduced to just
another Italian City State.
I have no formal training in Law, but I helped my mother prepare many legal
briefs and I have several friends who are lawyers, (a must in the
entertainment industry.) I have many books on Roman Law and its
applications. Since I can bring all the diligence of a film
producer/historian
to the work, I have many people among the Senate and Nova Roma who respect my
ability. I am sure I can do a very fine job as Praetor Urbanus. I would
appreciate your consideration for the position.
Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus
Candidate for Praetor Urbanus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Caius Africanus' Candidacy
From:	"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 21:18:59 -0000

Popularibus salutem

I would like to ask C. Africanus what he has done as Aedilis Plebis in the
past year which deserves our vote for him to be Quaestor this year.

Avete populari

Vado.

>Today, I put on the White Toga of candidacy and stand before the Civies of
Nova Roma >to declare myself for the office of Quaestor.

>Before the deities of my gens ,Methras or Minerva, I pledge myself to the
service of >Nova Roma.

>My decision to serve the Republic is not new. I have served as Aedile
Plebis in the past >and have stood for office before. I will be retired as
of the first of the new year and feel I >have the time and energy to serve
faithfully.

>I bring to the service of NR, 24 years of leadership and management
experience in the >military of my country and an additional 15 years as a
college administrator. I have >served on the board of directors for three
non-profit organizations.

>Since becoming a citizen in 1998 I have tried to keep abreast of the laws
and issues >which affect our Republic and where appropriate of added my
voice.

>Since this is a statement of Candidacy only, I am not addressing specific
issues here but >will do so in future posting.

>I ask the Citizens of Nova Roma to bestow upon me the honor and privilege
of serving >them as Caster.

>Valets,
>Gaius Africanus Seconds Germanic

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Diocletianus for Praetor (quite long)
From:	Ira Adams <iadams@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 15:20:55 -0600

"Quite long," Caius Flavius? (LOL) That wasn't long at all!

If you want to see what a "quite long" post is, there should be plenty of
examples in the archives of this list. I could cite specific examples,
but I prefer not to gratuitously offend the individuals responsible. Your
post was refreshingly concise and to the point.

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

On 12/1/00 3:42 AM Caius Flavius Diocletianus (3s@--------) wrote:

>Caius Flavius Diocletianus Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
>Citizens,
>
>standing here in my whitened toga, I want to give you some more information
>about my curriculum vitae and my plans as Praetor Urbanus.
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Cursus Honorum
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 13:20:52 -0800

Ave,

I questioned you because I do not think you understand the culture you are
dealing with. Your inflammoratory posts make that clear not only to me, but I
believe to the People of Nova Roma. You, without being steeped in Roman
Governmental procedures (Only as a Latin Scholar) are running for a very
important political position. Wanting to "change" things. Yet, as you have
failed to answer my inquiry, how can you change a system when you do not
understand how it is run?

Also, I didnt ask the other candidates because:

Flavius Vedius - is FOUNDER and Savior of NR.
M. Cassius - is FOUNDER of NR.
Q.Fabius - is a Roman Scholar.
Lucius Equitius - Is the "Third" Founder of Nova Roma. (Since he has been
in NR since day one)
Lucius Sergius - has been a Tribune and been privy to Senate discussions and
he is a very honorable Roman.
N. Vado - has been in NR a very long time. Been a governor of our largest
provincia in Europe and my colleague and I admitted him into the Senate of
Nova Roma.

Lastly, I am a citizen of Nova Roma. I believe as a Roman Citizen I have the
right to ask questions of various candidates. Do I not?

As for your comment about the Latin, you are correct, it can mean "office"
and "position" However I, as do many Roman scholars including Mommsen,
believe the Romans refered to it as the "course of honor" since they made
such a tradition about it.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

"M. Apollonius Formosanus" wrote:

> Salvete Quirites!
>
> Censor Sulla brought up the matter of the Cursus Honorum recently,
> and he was correct that it traditionally began with Quaestor. It was
> followed by Aedile, Praetor, Consul, and for a lucky few, Censor.
> (The last were normally only elected once in five years, so only very
> few could hold that postion.) The position of Tribune of the People
> was not integrated into this system.
>
> Sulla asked why I did not run for Quaestor first. I note that he did
> not ask why my fellow praetorian candidate Diocletianus also had not
> been a Quaestor, nor why other, Fabius Maximus, had actually come
> down from Consul to run for this office. Nor, for that matter, why N.
> Moravius Vado, candidate for Consul has never been Praetor.
>
> The fact of the matter is that the Cursus Honorum has not yet become
> our custom in Nova Roma, because we do not have a massive political
> class to provide enough experienced talent to offer a choice to
> voters at each level yet. Supposedly in the future we will be able to
> institute it.
>
> Sulla knows this, of course, and his question stems from the fact
> that he dislikes me personally. For new cives, let me explain that
> this is due to the fact that I disapprove of administrative actions
> and edicta on his part which make it difficult for persons having
> differing physical and social genders from adopting a Latin name with
> the grammatical gender that corresponds to their sense of sexual
> identity. I consider this to be discrimination against sexual
> minorities, while he considers it necessary for the wellbeing of Nova
> Roma. I would rather be friends with him, as he has worked hard for
> Nova Roma and deserves respect for that, but I consider any kind of
> discrimination and sexual intolerance to be serious social problems
> wherever in the world they be found. I wish he would work together
> with me to help end them in our Respublica.
>
> By the way, Sulla mentioned that the Cursus Honorum was honourable.
> I am sure that it is, but as a linguistic note, I might mention that
> "honos" or "honor" in Latin does not relate to the adjective
> "honourable" as in "just and upright", but means "office, position,
> award of honour or respect". The word in Latin that more closely
> means "honourable" as in "morally right, just, upright" is
> "honestus". So, "Cursus Honorum" means "Course of Positions".
>
> Valete!
>
>
>
>
>
> Marcus Apollonius Formosanus << CANDIDATVS PRAETORIVS >>
> Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
> Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius
> ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
> Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
> The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
> Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
> ________________________________________
> Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
> (Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
> ________________________________________
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Question for Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar
From:	"Jeroen Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 22:53:15 +0100

S. Apollonius Draco Gn. Tarquinio Caesari SPD,

I would like to ask you a question, o Tribune. In my time of membership here in Nova Roma, I have rarely seen you as an active Tribunus. In fact, and this is not a lie, for a long time I always thought we had only one Tribunus!! Suddenly you have come alive and are posting several messages here, including your candidacy. Why should our Quirites be voting for a Tribunus that is invisible mostly of the time, and awakes from hibernation when elections are coming up? Mind though, this is not meant to be a personal attack, but a question. Why do we so seldomly hear from you? And why should we vote for you?

Vale bene!
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Cursus Honorum
From:	Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 22:52:24 +0100

Caius Flavius Diocletianus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Please. citizens and friends, let me give you some remarks on this very
eloquent statement of my Co-Candidate for Praetor Urbanus.

"M. Apollonius Formosanus" wrote:

> Salvete Quirites!
>
> Censor Sulla brought up the matter of the Cursus Honorum recently,
> and he was correct that it traditionally began with Quaestor. It was
> followed by Aedile, Praetor, Consul, and for a lucky few, Censor.
> (The last were normally only elected once in five years, so only very
> few could hold that postion.) The position of Tribune of the People
> was not integrated into this system.

As far as I know, the ancient cursus honorum covered the positions of

Questor --- Praetor --- Consul

The positions of Aedile (both curule and plebis) and the Censor were out
of the
cursus honorum, as was the office of tribune.

> Sulla asked why I did not run for Quaestor first. I note that he did
> not ask why my fellow praetorian candidate Diocletianus also had not
> been a Quaestor, nor why other, Fabius Maximus, had actually come
> down from Consul to run for this office. Nor, for that matter, why N.
> Moravius Vado, candidate for Consul has never been Praetor.

I agree. I was never a Quaestor. Like other Candidates for various
offices.

The one and only reason for this is: We have not a law about the Cursus
Honorum. I would never had candidated for Praetor if I had to be
Quaestor
before. If we have not a law about this, nobody can demand a specific
way
trough the various magistrate�s positions.

> The fact of the matter is that the Cursus Honorum has not yet become
> our custom in Nova Roma, because we do not have a massive political
> class to provide enough experienced talent to offer a choice to
> voters at each level yet. Supposedly in the future we will be able to
> institute it.

This is the right point, Formosanus. Our nation is nearly 3 years old.
We can�t
demand the ancient cursus honorum, if we want to have able and motivated
officials on each level.

> Sulla knows this, of course, and his question stems from the fact
> that he dislikes me personally. For new cives, let me explain that
> this is due to the fact that I disapprove of administrative actions
> and edicta on his part which make it difficult for persons having
> differing physical and social genders from adopting a Latin name with
> the grammatical gender that corresponds to their sense of sexual
> identity. I consider this to be discrimination against sexual
> minorities, while he considers it necessary for the wellbeing of Nova
> Roma. I would rather be friends with him, as he has worked hard for
> Nova Roma and deserves respect for that, but I consider any kind of
> discrimination and sexual intolerance to be serious social problems
> wherever in the world they be found. I wish he would work together
> with me to help end them in our Respublica.

I don�t want to comment this. Everyone who had followed the debate knows
what
happened.

I�m sure that each Candidate for any office or position is willing and
able to
establish a good cooperation with the other magistrates, for the best
benefit
of Nova Roma.

Valete
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Engaged Citizen
Candidate for Praetor Urbanus
www.diocletian.de/elect/diocletianus/

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Subject:	[novaroma] The Tribune Wakes!
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" <n_moravius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 18:15:05

Salvete Quirites

I think it is a fair measure of a man's character when, after a year spent
doing almost nothing but sleeping, when someone digs him in the ribs and
says: 'Election Time!' he has the infernal cheek to run for the same office
again and then begin his election address not by ennumerating his own
abilities (which would, admittedly, be difficult), but instead attempts to
smear his rivals.

I would like to ask Tribune Tarquinius what he has actually done to serve
Nova Roma in the past year, other than wake up long enough to block his
fellow-Tribune's veto on a very contentious edict. I would also like to ask
him what he intends to do to help our respublica in the coming year if the
people again see fit to entrust him with the Tribune's office. Can he
promise that the stabilitas he offers will be anything more constructive
than his inertia of the past year?

As for these seditious revolutionary child-molesters he is so shrill about
(has he been having nightmares?), who are allegedly going to tear down
everything in the republic "which we (sic) have built", I think we would all
like to know exactly who he means.

And what does he mean, "we" ?

Avete,

Vado.

> Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 05:34:36 -0000
> From: caesar@--------
>Subject: Announcement of Candidacy
>
>Salvete,
>
>I stand before you at the urging of my fellow Citizens and
>magistrates clad in the chalk white toga and offer myself as a
>servant of our Republic. I cannot say that I had planned to run for
>office this year, but am nonetheless asking for your vote in the
>coming election.
>
>I stand before you as a Roman. A lover, protector, and promoter of
>our Beloved Republic. A Republic that is in danger of being toppled
>by a dangerous and un-roman group of conspirators. There are
>candidates that stand before you who would have our system, an
>ancient and wonderful system, a _working_ system, a Roman
>system....they would tear all this down which we have built, and in
>its place erect a government that would make Cato himself rise from
>his rest to strike out at these "men".
>
>Do not let our Republic fall into such hands. Give your vote to one
>who will safegaurd the Constitution, not seek to destroy it though
>Revolutionary measures.
>
>There may not be Barbarians at the gates of Rome, but treasonous
>Romans aren't much better.
>
>The past year has been one of stability. That is what Nova Roma
>needed most. She still needs this stability in order to move forward.
>This year, She will take her first steps. Nova Roma will rise from
>her knees and strive to walk as She never has before. It is up to
>you, Quirites, if She will fall or rise. It is dependent on who you
>choose to lead Her. Do not let these "men" corrupt so beautiful a
>child as our Republic.
>
>I have served Nova Roma before, as Tribune, and as Pontifex. I served
>a brief tenure as Curator Aranae. I am no stranger to our Republic,
>and am always at your disposal.
>
>Elect me to the Tribunate and I will see that our progress does not
>cease, and that we do not begin to move away from our goals as a
>Roman people.
>
>You are voting for stability and you are voting for prosperity.
>Please do not hesitate to email me with your individual questions.
>
>
>Roma Aeterna! Roma Vincit Omnia! Ave Roma Aeterna!
>
>Valete.
>
>GNAEVS TARQVINIVS CAESAR
>Candidate for Tribune of the People

_____________________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Elections
From:	Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 21:46:23 +0100

Salvete cives Novae Romae,

I am sorry if you get this twice, but I cannot find this my prior
posting neither in my records nor in the eGroups archives.

I humbly ask you all not to lose yourself into any fierce political
conflicts during these election campaigns. History sufficiently shows us
the resulting dangers and atrocities.
I also ask the current magistrates and all my competitors as well as
their supporters to faithfully keep to Concordia. Q. Furius Camillus is
said to have founded the first templum Concordiae in the Formum Romanum
during the 4th c., but we certainly know about L. Opimius cos. - irony
of fate! - having built a templum Concordiae which was renovated by
Tiberius Caesar. The senate assembled there frequently. I wish we had a
templum Concordiae - even if it was only a virtual place, a sacred room
where discord has no right to enter.
Especially in times of election campaigns, when opponents tend to
confront each other, leaving the listeners/readers behind in shere
confusion about who's right and who's wrong, and a nagging pain when
friends are involved.
However, we certainly remember venerable Hesiodus saying that their are
2 Erides, one being a ruthless demon causing hatred and war, and another
one causing men (and imvho women, too!) to compete honorably - We should
only follow her path and ignore the siren song of the evil!
All I am asking for is try to use the golden mean and don't carry the
dragon seed into this community.

As for me, my skills and proficiencies cannot match those of my
competitors - I have never been a treasurer, I have never served in any
army or as a public servant or fund raiser, and I can only bow to all of
you in respect and admiration. Apart from a profound knowledge of the
Ancient World, I have nothing to offer than commitment and perseverance,
my being talented in organizing activities and mediating between
opposing parties, as well as 16 years of experience in working as a
freelancer and being being self-employed (I had to finance my university
studies myself) and one very hard year serving in the managing committee
of a lively German writers association.
All I want is to serve Nova Roma and Her people with all my skills and
talents, and I hope I will be able to prove that I deserve that honor.

Avete atque valete,

Lucilla Cornelia Cinna

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Question from Gryllus
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 17:14:58 -0500

Salve;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gian G Reali [mailto:piscinus@--------]
> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 12:09 PM
>
> Rather than introduce foreign and alien innovations into our res
> publica, I seek to restore the ancient tradition.... As a Tribunus Plebis,
> for my part in that effort, I would seek to restore the Comitia Tributa
> Plebis of Nova Roma on the model of the ancient Republic.

Odd words for someone who not too long ago proudly proclaimed "We need
therefor to design our institutions to future needs, more than looking back
on the model of a republic that ultimately failed."

I have to wonder, Piscinius, why you are here.

If you and your cohorts so detest what Nova Roma is trying to do, and so
abhor the means by which we are doing them, why are you still here? If you
truly believe "Our government needs to reflect our present society, not some
ancient society which we study but to which we have no connection." then I
say that you've missed the whole point of what Nova Roma is and strives to
be.

Nova Roma is trying to recreate the ancient Roman Republican system, with
all its quirks, its contradictions, and its flaws. Indeed, without those
very flaws which you so despise (as when you said "Why should we accept a
system that limits us, inconveniences our government, adds unnecessary
complications?") the whole point of our recreation would be lost. We're
slowly moving towards an ever-better approximation of the ancient Republican
system, with all its wonderfully "unnecessary complications", and I think
your aspirations towards instituting a modernly efficient 21st century
government (or as you put it, "Laws that needlessly imposes limitations,
encumber the functioning of our institutions, or have ambiguities which
create paralyzing situations, do not form an efficient government.") are
best expressed elsewhere.

Is our current system a 100% accurate model of ancient Rome? Of course not,
and I doubt it ever will be. But we are, in our own way, moving ever closer
to that goal. I do wonder, however, if you share that goal. Your statements
to date seem to indicate otherwise, even if you seem to change your tune
when election-time comes around.

Especially as you wish to serve in a magistracy which is so vital to our
system, I must ask of your motives. Are you a professional reformer, sworn
to drag us kicking and screaming into the 21st century for our own good? Are
you misplaced, finding yourself in a group which isn't really what you
thought it was? Or are you simply a rabble-rouser, taking delight in simply
stirring up trouble for its own sake?

(The quotes used above come from Piscinius' own "Constitution and Common
Sense" post from October 14th, thoughtfully presented on his own candidacy
website as an example of his opinions.)

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus
http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Res variae de Amicorum Dignitatis
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 23:12:58 +0100

Salvete Quirites!

I would like to adress a few topics raised here in this forum...

1. BASHING OF THE DIGNITAS FORUM

Although politics have always been discussed here on the main list, does every politician here really think that every subscriber to this list wants to scroll through philosophical-political discussions on various issues that usually take replies and replies and... yet more replies? Towards this end the Dignitas Forum has been developed.

Everyone who is politically interested may join and participate in it freely, both candidates and citizens.

Also, a list of all candidates is up in txt format at our eGroups site (www.egroups.com/group/NR_DignitasForum), plus the Convocatores are proud to announce a Spanish and Hungarian translation of their Statement. So there is something happening there.

Just don't bash it because it's new to you, guys.

2. ARE THE AMICI DIGNITATIS REVOLUTIONARIES?

No! Would you please stop this nonsense of associating us with Athenian Democrats? If you're doing that, you're making a big mistake, because:
1. Athenian Democracy was also a republic (mostly of the time)
2. Athenian Democracy had a direct participation of about 6000 male civilians
3. Nowhere do we make ANY reference to this system

Also, we are not revolutionaries. Nowhere do we proclaim:
1. We want the Senate to become an eligible body
2. We want to destroy and usurp Nova Roma
3. We want to virtually destroy certain people here

If you want to dialogue with us, come across with facts rather than fiction. If you want to discuss with us, talk about things rather than people. I would like to see this fowl lies over our movement, and our non-partisan forum to stop immediatly. It shows a bad taste to attack a group of loose friends like this as though they were a bunch of dangerous terrorists. Don't look for things that aren't there. Prove your claims, and as you all know: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Valete omnes!
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
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Subject:	[novaroma] Kal. mensis December
From:	razenna@--------
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 22:38:51 -0000

Die Quinti te kalo Iuno Covella.

Today is the
Festival of Neptunus.

Ave, Neptunus Rex, Magister Maris.

Today is also sacred to
Pietas.

Ave, Roma.
Ave Roma Immortalis.

C. Aelius Ericius.
Pontiff. Augur.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question for Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar
From:	"Tiberius Hibernius Gladius Mortifer" <tiberius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 17:49:14 -0500

I don't speak here often, mostly when something just gets my attention or
gets my Irish up ( indeed, I am a Roman, but a Celt as well). Although I am
mostly quiet that does not mean I am asleep.

A few have suggested that Gnaeus Tarquinius has been "asleep" for the past
year because he does not speak often on this list. In light of that, I ask
you... is the best and most effective leader the one who is most visible?
Or the one who promotes stability and prosperity with little personal
fanfare?

As yourselves this question... has the past year been stable and prosperous
or not? I have not been here long enough to answer that question for
myself, which I refrain from voting this year. But if you, who have greater
experience than I, answer this question in the affirmative, then the
Tribunes have been doing their job. If you answer in the negative, then
they have not.

Just take that into consideration before casting your vote, or judging
someone for being "quiet".

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeroen Meuleman <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
To: novaroma@-------- <novaroma@-------->
Date: Friday, December 01, 2000 4:55 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Question for Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar

S. Apollonius Draco Gn. Tarquinio Caesari SPD,

I would like to ask you a question, o Tribune. In my time of membership here
in Nova Roma, I have rarely seen you as an active Tribunus. In fact, and
this is not a lie, for a long time I always thought we had only one
Tribunus!! Suddenly you have come alive and are posting several messages
here, including your candidacy. Why should our Quirites be voting for a
Tribunus that is invisible mostly of the time, and awakes from hibernation
when elections are coming up? Mind though, this is not meant to be a
personal attack, but a question. Why do we so seldomly hear from you? And
why should we vote for you?

Vale bene!
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
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Subject:	[novaroma] Candidacy for Rogator
From:	Mike Macnair <MikeMacnair@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 18:20:39 -0500

Salvete Quirites!

I stand before you in the toga candida as candidate for the post of
Rogator.

I stand for this post in the belief that it is essential to Nova Roma's
future that the Comitia should function properly, in order that the MIXED
constitution (monarchic in the magistrates, aristocratic in the Senates,
democratic in the Comitia and in the veto powers of the Tribunes, which
exist to force matters into the Comitia), which was characteristic of Roma
Antiqua and has been adopted by Nova Roma, should be effectively defended.
I say openly to you that in the last year too many questions of
major controversy or long-term policy have been dealt with by Magisterial
Edict or Senatus Consultum, which should have come to the Comitia; that the
provision of the Vedian Constitution which requires the Tribunes to act
collegially has proved to be contrary to the mos maiorum and the needs of
the Res Publica; and that senior magistrates have expressed the view that
Nova Roma is "a republic and not a democracy", which is a profound
distortion of the inheritance of Roma Antiqua and can only have meaning as
an attempt to commit NR to a particular (rightist) stance in modern
American politics.
The defence of authoritarian views by senior magistrates and some
others, which deny the democratic element in the constitutions of Roma
Antiqua and Nova Roma, has led some opponents of these views to adopt
Athenian concepts of "pure democracy", forgetting Polybius' lesson that
pure democracy turns to demagogy, and demagogy to tyranny, all too easily.
But to defend the mixed constitution, we must make it work. The job of the
Rogatores is important to this task.

As to my qualifications for the post, I have been a citizen of Nova Roma
for a little more than two years, and have in the past held the post of
Praetor. I am familiar with the general principles of spreadsheets and
databases, and in particular with MS Excel, which I have available for use
(though I am no more fond of Microsoft software than any other user!).

Valete,

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Towards a Transparent Senate
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 21:45:24 -0200

Ave,

I would like to share my feelings about this point. On our flag is
written
SPQR : the Senate and the People,
not the Senate representing the people like in a greek (be it Spartan or
Athenian type state),
nor the Senate and Magistrates leading the people (like in a germanic
state: councel and king).
In order to have our mixed system working,
the Senate must not be influenced by the People and should not work
publicly.
And the People cannot be passive, the people should participate
constantly by the vote of leges etc.

Caveat: that s the opinion of a not yet citizen.

M' Verus Limitanus

"M. Apollonius Formosanus" wrote:
>
> Salvete Quirites!
>
> Tribunus Plebis Obstinatus has raised some very interesting points
> in the post quoted below. Let me first say that I totally agree with
> him on the need for the People in Comitia assembled to assume their
> rightful r�le as lawmakers and sovereign power in the State.
>
> When we learn in school or elsewhere about Rome, the dignity and
> importance of the Senate is always (correctly) stressed, and we are
> led to take the viewpoint of some ancient senators and feel that the
> Senate was the natural governing body of the Respublica. However, the
> Comitia, often presented in a more shadowy way in elementary or
> children's books about Rome, were understood in antiquity to be the
> gatherings of the Sovereign People. It was they who elected the
> magistrates with the executive power and they who passed the true
> laws in their own persons, not through mere representatives. It was
> also they who insisted on the Tribuni Plebis to protect their
> interests against too much influence from the Senate and the rich
> minority.
>
> We must go back to history and overcome the misperceptions caused
> from our childhoods by sources which emphasised the Senate out of
> proportion - in reality the People in their Comitia were intensely
> active in the governance of the State. I very much hope that with the
> new initiatives already taken by Sura on behalf of the Plebs, the new
> Tribunes of the People will indeed get the Comitia up to speed.
>
> *However*, the other worry of Obstinatus I do not share. Certainly,
> if the Senate List is passively available to the People, they can use
> the Senate e-mail address, which has always been there, to inform the
> Senate about their preferences and any useful information or
> knowledge they may have on a given issue - and do so in a timely
> manner, when it is still useful, without having to try changing a
> senatusconsultum after it is a fait accompli, which is very
> difficult.
>
> I do not believe with Octavius and Obstinatus that there will be so
> very much mail generated from this. How many non-senators will want
> to read still more administrative and political verbiage if they can
> avoid it? Not many - and those who do will be relatively well
> informed people who will often have something meaningful to
> contribute. (Indeed, they will be potential senators for the future,
> and this would be good training for them.) Nor do I think that they
> will expect individual answers from each senator in such
> correspondence - that would be overwhelming for the writer!
>
> The Nova Roman Senate is not the U.S. Senate. But the ancient Roman
> Senate was not a secretive institution. Meetings were in temples (the
> Curia or Senate House was a consecrated temple too) having scarce
> windows and large doors which served for ventilation and
> illumination. Slaves were often present to set out the senators'
> portable seats, write down good speeches, etc., and of course
> everything would be discussed in detail with non-senators in the
> presence of often intelligent and gossipy slaves in convivia
> afterwards. And many Tribunes of the People were present in a central
> position in the Senate chamber of the day, any one of which could
> choose to convoke the People and tell them anything said or done in
> the greatest detail - and with their own interpretation added.
>
> Quirites, it is not a matter of "representation" in the sense of a
> representative democracy. It is a matter of openness and
> transparency, lack of which inevitably inspires suspicion in modern
> people. And especially if the Senate is heavily involved in financial
> management, lack of transparency will not long be tolerated. I am
> therefore deeply grateful that this issue has been raised in the
> Senate. I hope that the Senate will take advantage of this initiative
> to set itself above suspicion (even if unjustified) in the clear
> light of public day. The result, O Senatores, will be that you will
> be better advised by everyone here so that you can better advise the
> Respublica.
>
> Valete!
>
> M. Apollonius Formosanus
> Candidate for Praetor Urbanus
>
> __________________________-
> Obstinatus scripsit:
>
> Salvete Conscript Fathers
>
> Although not a senator, I am moved to comment on this two-part
> proposal on the grounds of my responsibility toward maintaining the
> letter and spirit of the Constitution. This idea of opening Senate
> deliberations to public view, while not technically unconstitutional
> (i.e., there is nothing in the Constitution that woould forbid it),
> violates the spirit of the Constitution by undermining the basic
> structure of Roman government. It shatters the Mos Maiorum. The
> Senate is not the governing body of Nova Roma: it is NOT analogous to
> the Senate of the United States. The Senate of Nova Roma, like the
> Senate of Roma Antiqva, is an un-elected, mainly consultative body of
> distinguished elders that is in no way answerable to any electorate
> among the citizens. No senator stands for re-election to his Senate
> seat. As a repository of experience and wisdom, our Senate *LEADS*
> but does NOT *rule* our republic. To make all of the members of the
> Senate answerable to the general population for their every opinion
> and vote will undermine and weaken that role.
>
> Doubtless some may be thinking that Tribune Australicus has abandoned
> his populist sympathies and is seeking to protect the Senate from
> criticism and interference. That is not the case. I seek to protect
> the Republic from being weakened. The governing body of our Republic
> is meant to be the body of its citizens voting in their tribes and
> centuries. That is where and how laws are supposed to be made. Owing
> in part to the fact that we haven't quite yet made that process work
> smoothly and easily, and owing in part to the fact that many of us
> tend to think in terms of modern Western (particularly American)
> government instead of Roman, and owing in part to what I think is an
> almost universal human tendency to look to "leaders" to relieve us of
> the responsibility for governing ourselves, we have fallen into some
> very un-Roman attitudes toward our government. The people, instead of
> acting in their role as the governing body, have fallen into the
> habit of looking to the Senate and the magistrates to make their
> decisions for them, to arbitrate their conflicts for them, i.e., to
> be their government for them. These proposed changes would strengthen
> and codify these un-Roman tendencies, and fundamentally change the
> nature of our state.
>
> Marcus Octavius Germanicus has very clearly outlined the practical
> problems that would follow from the enactment of these proposals, and
> they are considerable. Imagine a hundred or more citizens posting
> replies, criticisms, support, arguments, and complaints *to the
> Senate* in response to *each* opinion or vote expressed by a senator
> during the deliberations of a Senate session. And imagine the public
> outcry if senators fail to acknowledge and respond to this flood of
> input. We would need no Circus Maximus - we would have a Circus
> Senatus!
>
> But even more daunting than that rather alarming scenario (isn't
> there a movie plot in there, Consul?) is the change that would be
> wrought in the very nature of our Roman Republic, and the damage that
> would be done to the Mos Maiorum.
>
> I entreat you, Conscript Fathers, to retain your role as leaders and
> not to succumb to the temptation to become rulers by inviting the
> people to consider you answerable for appeasing their every whim,
> need, and desire. Let the people be answerable to each other in their
> debates and votes in the Comitia. Maintain the status of the Senate
> as it is. Strengthen it. Increase its respect and dignitas. Don't
> undermine it and the Republic by enacting these proposals that would
> open the doors of the Senate and dilute its wise deliberations with
> the shouts of the streets.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
>
> Marcus Apollonius Formosanus << CANDIDATVS PRAETORIVS >>
> Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
> Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius
> ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
> Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
> The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
> Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
> ________________________________________
> Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
> (Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
> ________________________________________
>

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