Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The Cursus Honorum
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 01:14:09 +0100

M. Apollonius Formosanus Octavio et Omnibus Quirites!

In a previous post I mentioned as a matter of public information
that Censor Sulla dislikes me and attributed this to the fact that I
disapprove of his discriminatory acts against a sexual minority
group. You, Octavi, responded with the following:

I suspect the dislike is more due to your stated intention of
removing him from office:

MAF: and we must remove the two presently most
MAF: powerful magistrates from office and keep them out for a
MAF: good long time (i.e. one consul and one censor)

Saying merely that he "dislikes" you because you "disapprove" of his
actions falls fall short of the whole truth. It is you who are
pursuing a vendetta against a hard-working and dedicated magistrate,
who is merely trying to defend himself.
_____________
Respondeo: "Removing from office" etc. means simply using the normal
democratic process of these and future elections to secure defeat at
the polls for Sulla and the consul in question. The consul in
question is in fact Q. Fabius Maximus, who decided to run against
*me* for the praetorship, perhaps (partly?) to keep me out of office!

This is all very fair, above board, legal, and normal in any
democratic system. Anyone is allowed to try to defeat others at the
cista. And the People decide.

Why do you object to me if I wish to defeat someone at the polls in
order to get someone else into office who would not practice
discrimination on the basis of sexual - or any other - minority
status? Why is it a "vendetta" to want to see cives treated equally?

Sulla at any point can decide that since his policy did not satisfy
those most concerned with the issue, that some better policy should
be adopted. Or even if he still thought his policy best, he might
recognise that it has been terribly divisive, and that letting
individuals do as they wish in a way harmless to the Respublica was
in the end the best solution. Giving people freedom to do as they
wish in essentially private matters (such as determining the gender
of one's name) is often an excellent way to avoid unnecessary
conflicts in a society, whereas gratuitous regulation and red tape
breeds resentment - often justified.

The post to which you replied was one in which I dealt with Sulla in
a gentle way and with regret that a man of his undoubted dedicationa
and diligence had not yet seen fit to dissociate himself from
attitudes and policies that just do not belong in a micronation
entering the Twenty-First Century in a few days' time.

I wish that you, his eloquent defender and presumably friend, would
try to convince him that his course of action is destructive, and
that I would like nothing better than to sit down with him at peace,
shake hands, and let bygones be bygones - as soon as he agrees that
institutionalised discrimination against our fellow cives is not
something he wants any longer to associate with.

This has been hashed over many times, and I suggest that if you feel
a continuation of this thread is necessary, that you will move it
over to NR_Dignitas, which was set up to allow in-depth political
discussion without boring the people on the Main List to death by
repetition ( a horrible fate! :-).

Valete!


Marcus Apollonius Formosanus << CANDIDATVS PRAETORIVS >>
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius              
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________


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Subject:	[novaroma] RE: Question for Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar
From:	caesar@--------
Date:	Sat, 02 Dec 2000 00:14:45 -0000

Salve, amicus.

<<I would like to ask you a question, o Tribune. In my time of
membership here
in Nova Roma, I have rarely seen you as an active Tribunus. In fact,
and this
is not a lie, for a long time I always thought we had only one
Tribunus!!
Suddenly you have come alive and are posting several messages here,
including
your candidacy. Why should our Quirites be voting for a Tribunus that
is
invisible mostly of the time, and awakes from hibernation when
elections are
coming up? Mind though, this is not meant to be a personal attack,
but a
question. Why do we so seldomly hear from you? And why should we vote
for
you?>>

A fair question, and well put.

It should be known that several months into my term I experienced
severe technological difficulties. Namely, I lost the use of a
computer entirely. In order for me to even read the lengthy list of
emails, I had to drive 18 miles to the nearest library with computer
facilities. Which I did. However, in a society which is, at the
moment entirely based in the internet, this was not sufficient for me
to be deemed the "active" Tribune. But I tried, and I was there
though not as "visible" as I, or you, would have liked. I was
invisible because I had no choice, but I never ceased working behind
the scenes.

Tell me, who of you ever contacted me and did not recieve a reply? I
have listened to all concerns that have been brought before me and
have taken the neccesary actions.

If you take a look at the office of Tribune, and what it was
accomplished since it's inception, you will quickly realize that I
have accomplished more than most others before me to assure the
freedom and sovereignity of the Plebeians of Nova Roma. Tell me, when
was my public voice neccesary to maintain your well being? I cannot
recall a specific instance. You have never needed a public speech to
sooth you. You are independent and strong, and such people have no
need for eloquent, ear-massaging speechs. You required my action, and
action requires no words.

There is now an archived mailing list for the Senate where the was
none before, and it is moderated by both a Patrician Senator, and a
Plebeian non-Senator. That simple act assures that the Peole will
always have a channel through which they are informed.
I stood against a general tax which was proposed early in the year,
instead advocating a voluntary system which is now entirely worked
out and will be proposed before the Comitia Plebis Tributa in the
upcoming election.
The issues that arose in my tenure of office, I handled as best I
could in the interest of our entire Republic. Not in the interests of
a single group, or political clique, or a convention of conspirators.
Most importantly I have never ever threatened our well being as a
Republic. No one has been disenfranchised or wrongfully persecuted.
Our young and fragile constitution still stands.

Regardless. That is in the past. Elections are a time to look towards
the future. The shortcomings that I have had, I long to make amends
for, and posses the abilities to do so. Do not let our Republic fall
to rank villians such as the "Amici Dignitas".

Vale,

Gn. Tarquinius



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] RE: Question for Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 18:48:00 -0600 (CST)

On Sat, 2 Dec 2000 caesar@-------- wrote:

> Do not let our Republic fall
> to rank villians such as the "Amici Dignitas".

I'm sorry, Gnaeus Tarquinius, but I must object to this. I'm
certainly not allied with the Amici Dignitas, but there are several
good and honorable men among them, and you do them an injustice
by tarring all with the same brush.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
Microsoft delenda est!
http://www.graveyards.com/


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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The Cursus Honorum
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 16:37:14 -0800

>
> Why do you object to me if I wish to defeat someone at the
polls in
> order to get someone else into office who would not practice
> discrimination on the basis of sexual - or any other - minority
> status? Why is it a "vendetta" to want to see cives treated equally?
>

Because to date, Lucia Maria has stated publically numerous times that
she
supported the Edictum published by C. Marius Merullus and myself. I
find it
very interesting that you continually drop C. Marius Merullus, Lucia
Maria's OWN
Pater from this! I wonder if the People of Nova Roma notice that as
well!

>
> Sulla at any point can decide that since his policy did not
satisfy
> those most concerned with the issue, that some better policy should
> be adopted. Or even if he still thought his policy best, he might
> recognise that it has been terribly divisive, and that letting
> individuals do as they wish in a way harmless to the Respublica was
> in the end the best solution. Giving people freedom to do as they
> wish in essentially private matters (such as determining the gender
> of one's name) is often an excellent way to avoid unnecessary
> conflicts in a society, whereas gratuitous regulation and red tape
> breeds resentment - often justified.
>

I did exactly that. I published the original edicta. I had criticism
of it and
changed it. Together C. Marius Merullus, T. Labienus and I all co-wrote
the
Edictum. And, for everyone to see, that how M. Apollonius Formosanus
has
changed his tune, I present a post to the People of Nova Roma, This
post was
published on May 22, 2000 it was in response to the FIRST Gender Edicta.

Subject:
Statement on the Gender Edictum
Date:
Tue, 23 May 2000 02:58:09 +0200
From:
"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
To:
senate@--------




Marcus Apollonius
Formosanus
*** SENATUI NOVAE ROMAE
***
Salutem Plurimam
Dicit

Senators of the Respublica,

The purpose of this address to you is present my views, as
an outsider to the Senate but a concerned citizen of Nova
Roma, on a matter which I understand to be currently under
Senatorial investigation, namely the Gender Edictum of
Censor Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix promulgated on the 24th
of May this year.

I wish to preface my comments with a statement of my
personal admiration for the hard, careful and capable work
which L. Cornelius has contributed to Nova Roma. His was one
of the first voices of welcome I received here, and I am
personally grateful to him for his help and kindness. My
objection to his edictum is not based on personal
considerations, and I would regret any embarassment caused
to the Censor as a result of this investigation.

<Snip>

For most human beings (even homosexuals, one might add) this
is not problematical. For some persons it is: transsexuals
or the transgendered. If one in one's inmost self feels
oneself to be of the opposite sex than the body one is
trapped in. In such a situation the individual may feel
forced by social pressure to live out an inauthentic life in
the body his/her very different spirit was consigned to, or
he/she can choose simply to change civil identity to the sex
that seems inwardly more natural, or one can to a greater or
lesser degree seek medical assistance in changing one's
physical body to conform to one's inner feelings.

This is, at worst, a medical problem. It in no wise implies
any sort of moral turpitude or mental illness in the normal
sense. It is easy enough, no doubt for those not in this
position and having poor imaginations to suppose otherwise,
and natural enough to feel a bit uncomfortable when
encountering such an anomaly. However, we have had among us
a pious Augur of the Religio Romana and an individual
thought fit to be entrusted with the highly responsible post
of Curator Sermo[nis], and they have had this situation in
their lives. Can any of us fail to notice their fundamental
decency, intelligence and personal charm?

Such special cases should not be caught in the net
supposedly intended for slightly miscomprehending rôle
players. If a person in normal everyday life presents
himself or herself as a certain sex as a matter of civil
identity, who are we to demand that he or she perform a body
check and use a Roman name differently gendered from the one
which is elsewhere personally and legally true and normal?
It is degrading to these citizens and potential citizens.

<Snip>

I have myself more than once proposed that Nova Roma simply
do as other nations and the states of the United States do,
and normally give faith and credence to the civil identities
(age, sex, marital status, etc.) recognised by the state of
the applicant's first citizenship. I.e., if one is male or
female in passport or on driver's licence, we simply accept
that gender. This would solve the problem of rôle players
and protect those transsexuals who are protected at home.

<Snip>

Conscript Fathers, I want to express my deepest hope that,
in a way as little embarrassing as possible to the Censor,
this edictum or the prevailing law be changed to reflect
Nova Roma's firm intent to protect the dignity of all of Her
cives. And further that those who have left us in protest at
the legal climate engendered by the edictum in question be
officially invited back, with apologies, in the name of the
Nova Roman State.

<Snip>

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus,
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae,
Triumvir Condens Sodalitatis Latinitatis Futurae
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
ICQ# 61698049
________________________________________________________

Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
[Se vi deziras subigi chion al vi, subigu vin al Racio.]


As you can see from Formosanus original suggestions have been adopted
into
the revised edictum. But, that has not pleased Formosnaus. I hope the
People will read this and reflect before they vote.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix




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Subject:	[novaroma] In for the long haul
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 20:53:29 -0500

Salvete Omnes;

It has been brought up, both here and in private, that some questions exist
regarding my intention to complete my term as Consul. I wish to address
these quite valid concerns.

First off, I should like to point out that I have never made any decision
regarding a magistracy lightly or on a whim. This includes both the decision
to run as well as the decision to resign. I am quite familiar with the
requirements of the office of Consul, and have weighed them against my
abilities and limitations, and I can state one thing for fact.

I am in for the long haul.

If elected to the office of Consul, you can rest assured that I will serve
through my entire term, and do so enthusiastically and with the utmost of my
ability. (I do, of course, reserve the right to take a week off here and
there; especially come mid-April when my first child is due!) Believe me, I
thought long and hard about whether or not I could and would give 100%
effort as Consul. The answer I came up with was "yes". And that is the
promise I make to you.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul

http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus


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Subject:	[novaroma] Pro Consules
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 19:35:18 -0700

Salve, Quirites:

Looking at the candidates for consuls, I for one have a hard
decision before me. I feel that all three candidates would
perform admirably in the role. No matter the outcome of
this race, I feel Nova Roma will benefit.

I have had occasion to speak with Germanicas and believe
that not only do we need to be thankful that he had the idea
and ambition to begin this thing we call Nova Roma, but he
also has demonstrated his ability to serve in the hardest of
conditions. If Germanicus is consul again, I will be fully
satisfied with the election.

I have had the occasion to speak with Cassius as well, and
while we haven't always seen things from the same viewpoint,
his Romanitas, his willingness to contribute above and
beyond the call of duty in ways that include providing
generous amounts of his own effort and monies to Nova Roma,
and dedication to the hardest part of building Nova Roma --
namely, the task of rebuilding the Religio -- make him an
outstanding candidate. I would be most pleased to have
Cassius as Consul.

Finally, I come to Moravius Vado. I support him for Consul
most of all, for the fact that he would bring a new
viewpoint and mix of qualifications to the Consulship that
speak highly for him. Vado represents the true Homo Novum
to me. Under his leadership, the provincia Brittania is
thriving with a depth of scholarship and direct cive
participation that is unrivalled in any other province.
What I most respect about Vado is that with him, I always
know exactly where I stand and I feel completely at ease in
knowing a heated disagreement over principle will end in a
gentleman's/woman's handshake.

Livia Cornelia Aurelia


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Pro Consules
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 18:16:36 -0800

Ave,

I dont think it is proper that a Rogator should be making endorsements to
any candidates. Given the sensitivity of the election process. I hope I am
not the only one to feel that way. But, given the heatedness of some of our
races.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor


gmvick32@-------- wrote:

> Salve, Quirites:
>
> Looking at the candidates for consuls, I for one have a hard
> decision before me. I feel that all three candidates would
> perform admirably in the role. No matter the outcome of
> this race, I feel Nova Roma will benefit.
>
> I have had occasion to speak with Germanicas and believe
> that not only do we need to be thankful that he had the idea
> and ambition to begin this thing we call Nova Roma, but he
> also has demonstrated his ability to serve in the hardest of
> conditions. If Germanicus is consul again, I will be fully
> satisfied with the election.
>
> I have had the occasion to speak with Cassius as well, and
> while we haven't always seen things from the same viewpoint,
> his Romanitas, his willingness to contribute above and
> beyond the call of duty in ways that include providing
> generous amounts of his own effort and monies to Nova Roma,
> and dedication to the hardest part of building Nova Roma --
> namely, the task of rebuilding the Religio -- make him an
> outstanding candidate. I would be most pleased to have
> Cassius as Consul.
>
> Finally, I come to Moravius Vado. I support him for Consul
> most of all, for the fact that he would bring a new
> viewpoint and mix of qualifications to the Consulship that
> speak highly for him. Vado represents the true Homo Novum
> to me. Under his leadership, the provincia Brittania is
> thriving with a depth of scholarship and direct cive
> participation that is unrivalled in any other province.
> What I most respect about Vado is that with him, I always
> know exactly where I stand and I feel completely at ease in
> knowing a heated disagreement over principle will end in a
> gentleman's/woman's handshake.
>
> Livia Cornelia Aurelia
>


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Pro Consules
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 20:09:25 -0700

Thank you for pointing that out Sulla. I was actually about
to post to the list saying that, as the time for election
draws near, it is now time for me to step out of the public
debate and prepare for the exercise of office.

When I was appointed Rogator, I accepted the office with a
pledge to conduct the elections fairly and with favor to no
party. I am no stranger to having an opinion, and also
having an office where I have to suspend opinion and
exercise absolute impartiality. The moment for me to do so
is now. If there was any thought from the Senate that I
would be unable to serve as Rogator without impartiality, I
am sure they would not have elected me.

That said, I enjoy political debate, and I do not apologize
for exercising my voice. At no time was I commenting as
Rogator, but as a simple citizen. As Rogator, I have no
opinion.

With that said, I tip off my hat to all the candidates, and
retire from the list until the election is over. I pledge
to all of Nova Roma to handle the election with utmost honor
and impartiality.

Livia Cornelia Aurelia



Lucius Cornelius Sulla wrote:

> Ave,
>
> I dont think it is proper that a Rogator should be making
> endorsements to
> any candidates. Given the sensitivity of the election
> process. I hope I am
> not the only one to feel that way. But, given the
> heatedness of some of our
> races.
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Censor
>
>
> gmvick32@-------- wrote:
>
> > Salve, Quirites:
> >
> > Looking at the candidates for consuls, I for one have a
> hard
> > decision before me. I feel that all three candidates
> would
> > perform admirably in the role. No matter the outcome of
>
> > this race, I feel Nova Roma will benefit.
> >
> > I have had occasion to speak with Germanicas and believe
>
> > that not only do we need to be thankful that he had the
> idea
> > and ambition to begin this thing we call Nova Roma, but
> he
> > also has demonstrated his ability to serve in the
> hardest of
> > conditions. If Germanicus is consul again, I will be
> fully
> > satisfied with the election.
> >
> > I have had the occasion to speak with Cassius as well,
> and
> > while we haven't always seen things from the same
> viewpoint,
> > his Romanitas, his willingness to contribute above and
> > beyond the call of duty in ways that include providing
> > generous amounts of his own effort and monies to Nova
> Roma,
> > and dedication to the hardest part of building Nova Roma
> --
> > namely, the task of rebuilding the Religio -- make him
> an
> > outstanding candidate. I would be most pleased to have
> > Cassius as Consul.
> >
> > Finally, I come to Moravius Vado. I support him for
> Consul
> > most of all, for the fact that he would bring a new
> > viewpoint and mix of qualifications to the Consulship
> that
> > speak highly for him. Vado represents the true Homo
> Novum
> > to me. Under his leadership, the provincia Brittania is
>
> > thriving with a depth of scholarship and direct cive
> > participation that is unrivalled in any other province.
> > What I most respect about Vado is that with him, I
> always
> > know exactly where I stand and I feel completely at ease
> in
> > knowing a heated disagreement over principle will end in
> a
> > gentleman's/woman's handshake.
> >
> > Livia Cornelia Aurelia
> >
>
>
> eGroups Sponsor
[Click Here!]
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The Cursus Honorum
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 21:49:34 -0600 (CST)

Salve Marce Apolloni,

> Respondeo: "Removing from office" etc. means simply using the normal
> democratic process of these and future elections to secure defeat at
> the polls for Sulla and the consul in question.

I did not interpret your statement that way.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla is not running for re-election as Censor.
Quintus Fabius Maximus is forbidden by law from seeking re-election
as Consul. Lucius Cornelius will be Censor for another 13 months, and
Quintus Fabius will be Consul for one more month. At the end of
this time, they will leave office naturally.

You stated that "we must remove" these two magistrates from office.
This choice of words signifies an active effort on your part to
terminate Sulla's term as Censor and Fabius' term as Consul. "We
must remove" is not a phrase used to describe a period of waiting for
a natural process to take place. It is a phrase used by someone
who intends action - perhaps impeachment proceedings. This
action cannot simply be defeat at the polls, for Quintus Fabius
is already ineligible for next year's consulship, and Sulla has
announced no plans to run for censor one year from now.

As for your intention to "keep them out for a good long time" -
while I certainly dislike hearing such things said about my friends,
you are within your rights to say and do this, and your right
to try this via the normal electoral process cannot be denied.
Similarly, Lucius Cornelius, Quintus Fabius, and their allies
such as myself have every right to try to keep you out of office
for a good long time.

> This is all very fair, above board, legal, and normal in any
> democratic system. Anyone is allowed to try to defeat others at the
> cista. And the People decide.

Running against your enemies now or in the future, to "keep them
out", is certainly acceptable. But your stated intent to "remove"
them from office simply doesn't make sense.

> Why do you object to me if I wish to defeat someone at the polls in
> order to get someone else into office who would not practice
> discrimination on the basis of sexual - or any other - minority
> status?

No discrimination has been practiced. The law applies equally to
all, and is compatible with macronational law.

> Why is it a "vendetta" to want to see cives treated equally?

I see no inequality here. And I see no reason, other than pursuit
of a vendetta, for you to have made your extremely offensive
comparision of Sulla's actions to the Nazi Holocaust:

> In some European lands it is a criminal
> offence to deny the historical reality of the Holocaust. Those Jews
> *were* killed, and certain individuals *were* really responsible.
> Likewise we must never allow anyone here to deny or neglect the fact
> that Marius was grievously mistreated by certain officials with the
> tacit and later active collusion of a big majority in the then
> membership of the senate. We must *never* forget those historical
> facts or what they teach us about the moral character and
> trustworthiness of the persons involved.

I am hoping that you were unaware at the time you wrote the above
that Sulla is a Jew, for your statement would have been doubly
offensive had you known this.

> Sulla at any point can decide that since his policy did not
> satisfy those most concerned with the issue,

Who do you consider to be "those most concerned"? You and your
allies? Do you consider former Censors Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Decius Iunius Palladius, and Marcus Cassius Iulianus to be among
those most concerned?

> Or even if he still thought his policy best, he might
> recognise that it has been terribly divisive,

Do you consider your allusions to Nazis to be anything
other than terribly divisive?

Vale, Octavius.

---
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
Microsoft delenda est!
http://www.graveyards.com/


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question for candidates Moravius Piscinus and Labienus Fortunatus
From:	Ira Adams <iadams@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 23:21:25 -0600

Salve Marcus Marcius,

I thank you for your kind words and support. The post of Tribunus Plebis
can be a stressfull and demanding one, in which one can find oneself in
the middle of a conflict and taking shots from both sides. I'm grateful
to know that some cives and magistrates think I performed it acceptably.

Vale,

L. Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
Tribunus Plebis and candidate for Praetor Urbanus

On 12/1/00 8:15 AM RexMarcius@-------- (RexMarcius@--------) wrote:

>Salve Tribune!
>
>Please let me assure you that, at least in my mind, your work as Tribunus
>plebis can be held as an example of how the office should be conducted.
>This is also why I displayed your crucial opinion on the gender edictum in
>the "digestes" section of the Praetorium at Provincia Germania website
>(www.novaroma.de).
>
>No one can blame you for what your colleague in office has failed to do.
>
>I hope that Titus Labienus, whose opinions I greatly value, will be
>elected to follow in your footsteps and be blessed with a colleague that
>takes his office more seriously than the other Tribune we had.
>
>Ave et Vale
>Marcus Marcius Rex
>Civis
>Homo novus
>Candidate for Censor

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Pro Consules
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Dec 2000 21:50:30 -0800 (PST)

--- Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
wrote:

> I dont think it is proper that a Rogator should be
> making endorsements to
> any candidates. Given the sensitivity of the
> election process. I hope I am
> not the only one to feel that way. But, given the
> heatedness of some of our
> races.

I concur, and for this reason I have not endorsed any
of the candidates, nor will I.

Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus
Rogator

=====
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Subject:	[novaroma] Elections
From:	Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 11:09:54 +0100

Salvete cives Novae Romae,

I humbly ask you all not to lose yourself into any fierce political
conflicts during these election campaigns. History sufficiently shows us
the resulting dangers and atrocities.
I also ask the current magistrates and all my competitors as well as
their supporters to faithfully keep to Concordia. Q. Furius Camillus is
said to have founded the first templum Concordiae in the Formum Romanum
during the 4th c., but we certainly know about L. Opimius cos. - irony
of fate! - having built a templum Concordiae which was renovated by
Tiberius Caesar. The senate assembled there frequently. I wish we had a
templum Concordiae - even if it was only a virtual place, a sacred room
where discord has no right to enter.
Especially in times of election campaigns, when opponents tend to
confront each other, leaving the listeners/readers behind in shere
confusion about who's right and who's wrong, and a nagging pain when
friends are involved.
However, we certainly remember venerable Hesiodus saying that their are
2 Erides, one being a ruthless demon causing hatred and war, and another
one causing men (and imvho women, too!) to compete honorably - We should
only follow her path and ignore the siren song of the evil!
All I am asking for is try to use the golden mean and don't carry the
dragon seed into this community.

As for me, my skills and proficiencies cannot match those of my
competitors - I have never been a treasurer, I have never served in any
army or as a public servant or fund raiser, and I can only bow to all of
you in respect and admiration. Apart from a profound knowledge of the
Ancient World, I have nothing to offer than commitment and perseverance,
my being talented in organizing activities and mediating between
opposing parties, as well as 16 years of experience in working as a
freelancer and being being self-employed (I had to finance my university
studies myself) and one very hard year serving in the managing committee
of a lively German writers association.
All I want is to serve Nova Roma and Her people with all my skills and
talents, and I hope I will be able to prove that I deserve that honor.

Avete atque valete,

Lucilla Cornelia Cinna



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Subject:	[novaroma] Candidate for Rogator
From:	marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
Date:	Sat, 02 Dec 2000 08:49:46 -0000

Salvete Cives of Nova Roma,

I, Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus, come before you, clad in my
only toga, to ask you to consider me for the post of Rogator.

I am a little too young, and have asked the Senate for an exemption
to the Lex Iunia de Magistratum Aetate.

But what do I have that I can put to good use in serving Nova Roma?

I have experience of ensuring the safety of people in corporate
entertainment, and of leading such so that it goes smoothly.

I have been in Nova Roma for over a half a year, and am Scriba
Propraetoris, Scriba Consularis, and Legatus Britannia Meridiana. I
have fulfilled each of my current Nova Roman posts with efficiency,
as can be attested by my employers. As for qualifications, I got
an "A" grade in I.T. (Information Technology) Which should suffice
from what I have read from the Rogator's handbook.

I pledge now, if I am elected to the post of Rogator, to fulfill it
honestly and to do my best to achieve as many of the Roman Virtues as
is possible.

Every year Nova Roma is at a crossroads. A crossroads that could
lead Nova Roma several ways, some of them desirable to all, some
wanted by none. And yet this year is particularly important: because
of the influx of new citizens, there are more opinions than ever
about how Nova Roma should end up. In the end, it is up to you, you,
Quirites, to decide.

What do you want Nova Roma to be?

Valete,
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Pro Consules
From:	BICURRATUS@--------
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 04:41:13 EST

EX DOMO PUBLII CLAUDII LUCENTII SEVERI BICURRATI

> Ave,
>
> I dont think it is proper that a Rogator should be making endorsements to
> any candidates. Given the sensitivity of the election process. I hope I am
> not the only one to feel that way. But, given the heatedness of some of our
> races.
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Censor
>

Funnily enough I've been thinking this way about all postings where citizens
have posted in their official capacity. I believe that this gives unfair
influence to citizens who may not understand fully what each post requires.
Your vote is made as a citizen of NR, not from the office you currently hold.

Publius Claudius Lucentius Severus Bicurratus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Endorsement of Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus
From:	BICURRATUS@--------
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 04:51:48 EST

EX DOMO PUBLII CLAUDII LUCENTII SEVERI BICURRATI

> Lucius Equitius and I communicate regularly via phone and IM and we both
> have a bond between each other. It is absolutely essential that both
> Censors be able to get along together and communicate regularly. My
> present colleague and I have that abilty, but M. Marcius Rex and I do
> not.

I see. Because you have been having cosy chats with Equitius he is suitable
for the job.

What you are saying is that you are not willing to put the same effort into
establishing a new working relationship with someone who doesn't happen to
live within an easy phonecall of you.

It is this very insular mode of some officials that others are trying to
break down. If we are to be a truly worldwide organisation then we need to
have officials from all parts of it.

Support the worldwide expansion and idea that is NR. Support M. Marcius Rex
for the position of Censor.

Publius Claudius Lucentius Severus Bicurratus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Endorsement of Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 02 Dec 2000 01:40:17 -0800

BICURRATUS@-------- wrote:

> EX DOMO PUBLII CLAUDII LUCENTII SEVERI BICURRATI
>
> > Lucius Equitius and I communicate regularly via phone and IM and we both
> > have a bond between each other. It is absolutely essential that both
> > Censors be able to get along together and communicate regularly. My
> > present colleague and I have that abilty, but M. Marcius Rex and I do
> > not.
>
> I see. Because you have been having cosy chats with Equitius he is suitable
> for the job.
>
> What you are saying is that you are not willing to put the same effort into
> establishing a new working relationship with someone who doesn't happen to
> live within an easy phonecall of you.
>
> It is this very insular mode of some officials that others are trying to
> break down. If we are to be a truly worldwide organisation then we need to
> have officials from all parts of it.
>
> Support the worldwide expansion and idea that is NR. Support M. Marcius Rex
> for the position of Censor.

Ave!

Actually no, you failed to read the rest of the endorsement. Lucius Equitius
is already my established Nomenclator. Him and I have had an ongoing working
relationship for the past year. Whereas I have only spoken to M. Marcius Rex
only once EVER. Whereas M. Marcius Rex is in Germania and if a phone call is
needed it would be very expensive for either of us, Lucius Equitius is across
the country. Also, the language barrier might be an issue as well, I dont know
but it is very possible.

In considering the position of Censor, which IS the busiest position in Nova
Roma, dont you think it would be essential that there would be a good working
relationship without any possible impediment which would jeopardize the
productivity of the office?

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] ELECTION SITE
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 02:40:54 -0800 (PST)

--- caesar@-------- wrote:

> The following site has been created as a general
> reference for the
> elections. It contains general information on each
> of the candidates
> running for office, and will also contain a list of
> Laws to be voted
> upon by the Comitia when they are publically
> announced. The site will
> be updated at least once per day. The address is:
>
>
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/7249/Election1.html

Salve!

This is an excellent site and a well-balanced one (so
far). I have printed a copy and am using it to write
notes to myself to assist in voting. I also find it
of value as a Rogator to assist me in building my
spreadsheets!

Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus

=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." --Jean Rostand

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] RE: Question for Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 11:06:13 +0100

Salve, Tribune Caesar,

I thank you for your explanation. I know how busy one can get, and feeling
caught between two fires whilst still feeling a sense of deep engagement for
the Respublica of Nova Roma. The problem is; can you guarantee that you will
have more time left for NR next year?

And although you are correct that deeds have a greater impact than words,
often, the big thing is that deeds aren't as visible in an online community
as they would be in a macronation. I would like to believe that you are a
silent, hard-working man, but being too silent gives the impression that you
aren't doing anything. Also, if I may ask, what did you do during your
Tribunate? This is not meant to be an insult, but a fair question from a
fair citizen.

One last thing: would you *please* desist from calling the Amici Dignitatis
destroyers of the state? You have no proof for this highly unsubstantial
claim, and all it is doing is wrecking the image of both the Amici, and
yourself. If you want to discuss things with the Amici in a fair way,
discern facts from fantasy.

Vale bene!
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
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Subject:	Truth (was re: [novaroma] Re: The Cursus Honorum)
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 11:50:43 +0100

Salvete, omnes et Censor Sulla,

(Despite the fact that I may seem hot-headed here in this e-mail, don't take
my words too gravely. Count to ten and breathe in slowly. Then let the
stress flow away)

I take it that you are a man who, I hope, is not afraid to play hard. Before
I move on to the main body of my e-mail here, let me first state here that I
see through your attempts of making pater Formosanus such a controversial
topic here that you are prepared to do anything to destroy his reputation.
The problem is that the mistakes he has made in the past (I am willing to
admit that he has made his share of mistakes, yes) are nothing compared to
your mistakes. Although I consider you a highly adequate administrational
Censor, and a very engaged and active one, too, personally I believe that
you are a liar, and ethically you have doubtful morals.

Don't even think of hiding yourself behind all sorts of false pretexts to
deny my paterfamilias any office here other than your deep hatred and
revenge you feel for him. Proof:

- In the discussion regarding the Reprimand to Lucius Marius, you
persisted on humiliating him continuously, which was witnessed by everyone
who was involved in that mailing loop, offlist. As you consider it unethical
to post any excerpts from private messages publically, anyone can send me a
private message to obtain these quotes. No matter what the context was,
Sulla, you have gone way out of line back then in your harassment. And you
are a two-faced liar if you say that you have reasons for your scepticism
towards pater Formosanus other than pursueing your own personal goals of
revenge.
- When I sent a reply at the end of the Reprimand affair to say once
again that you went way out of line, you never replied. Instead, silence
fell. A great man is he who dares to admit when he is wrong and when he
another person is right. Instead you opted for a vengeful silence.
- Idem dito for the mailing loop of the Committee on the Sodalitas
Musarum. You have litterally called my pater a "prick". As I understand that
not everyone can like everyone, do keep your personal feeling unconnected
with your political motives - a thing which you have failed to do so far. No
excuse is vaild for engaging in a petty, demeaning name-calling.
- When I replied to you in that Musarum affair that you had gone out of
line, you quickly recoiled and rationalized your arguments. But being
accused by other men here of using hollow rhetorics, I see through false
reasons equally. And you have NEVER apologized for any of those two grave
and serious insults!
- When I recently questioned you for your deeper reasons why the office
of Praetor should be denied to my pater, you never replied (or I was taken
out of that loop). Are you afriad to face the truth? Are you afraid to admit
what you have done?
- You are using anything right now within your power to suffocate the
candidacy of my pater; you are using the neutral Dignitas Forum as some sort
of image of barbarianism, you use the Amici as some sort cannon fodder to
shoot at Formosanus, and you are willfully omitting facts. But you fail to
reckon with what we know, too.

Despite any circumstance, and any sort of feeling you may have felt which is
understandable, if you are truly one of the great men of New Rome, you
should stop trying to masque your mistakes, and either present your
vengeance in public, or stop acting so childish. We know that the only real
faction ever to exist here in Nova Roma was *yours*. A faction is secret -
the Amici Dignitatis are not a secret. And I would not try to twist my words
in this e-mail, Sulla, because I'm backed up with more than enough proof
that could kill any twist of my words in a heartbeat. They are what they
are.

Patricia Cassia, I owe you my apologies, for I may have started something
here that is more vicious than it is nice. But truth is truth. And I had a
deep urge to share it with the Quirites - often truth is not nice nor
polite. I am deeply sorry, and I hope no one will take too much offence.

Valete omnes!
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
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Subject:	[novaroma] Candidacy for Aedilis Plebis
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 11:50:48 +0100

Salvete, Quirites Respublicae Novaromanae,

Bearing a surprised expression, I arise from the mass of people gathered here at the Forum Romanum, clad in my best toga I could find, and with the most benevolent smile on my face. I, Sextus Apollonius Draco, stand here before you all today to humbly pose myself as a candidate for Aedilis Plebis.

Quirites who have become acquanted or friendly with me over my citizenship here in Nova Roma this year will surely know that I am a tad too young to serve as a Nova Roman official. Although a citizen of any age can pose his or her candidacy, if I would get elected, a 2/3 majority vote in the Senate is needed to grant me an exception to the age law. I hope for the Senate's benevolence in this matter, and will accept either decision with aequanimitas.

But why should anyone vote for me? A little oversight of my activities, macro- and micronational, may be in its place.

MACRONATIONAL

- Latinist - Hellenist, last year of secondary school in Belgium (Europe)
- Amateur-philosopher, mainly into ancient Greek philosophy, Buddhism and
modern philosophy (e.g. Popper, Nietzsche, Einstein...)
- Poet, mainly in English, also in Dutch
- Prozaist, science fiction, fantasy and philosophical short stories
- Interested in astrophysics and exobiology
- I'm trilingual, and you may talk to me either in English, Dutch or French - there's also a fat chance I will understand a lot of things in German, Italian, Spanish, Portugese; not to mention Latin. I try hard to be a cosmopolitan.

MICRONATIONAL

- Legatus Borealis of the Provincia Gallia
- Procurator of Gallia
- Member of the Committee of the pending Sodalitas Musarum
- Member of the Sodalitas Latinitatis
- Amicus Dignitatis
- List moderator of the Gallia list in French
- List moderator of the Gallia list in Dutch
- List moderator of the philosophy list
- List moderator of the Dignitas Forum
- Co-founder of the Provincia Gallia
- Pending application for position of Lupercus Fabianus within the
Collegium Pontificium
- Two pending eGroups lists for Novaroman youths

WHAT CAN I DO FOR *YOU* AS AN AEDILIS?

As an Aedilis Plebis, I would have the official authority to organize all kinds of events, either requested from the Quirites, or proposed by myself. These could go from hosting various chats on equally various topics, installing games here in Nova Roma, or even trying to hold real-life gatherings in Europe, something the Americani seem to be more experienced in - it's time that we have a few European meetings, too! :-). Also, I will continue to serve as a publically engaged list moderator of my four lists, and will be happy to cooperate in any plebeian project that helps the growth of Nova Roma. As things stand now, I am a very engaged and active citizen here, and I do hope that I deserve your vote.

But the final decision is up to you, Novaromani. Do what you consider wise.



In magna amicitia,
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
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Subject:	[novaroma] Announcement of Candidacy
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 12:03:23 +0100

Announcement of Candidacy

Ave,

Salvete Omnes,

I, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus stand before you, wearing the White Toga of
candidacy as a candidate for Quaestor.

I live in the north of Provinicia Thule (northern Sweden), I have been a
citizen in Nova Roma since 28/8 2000. I am a teacher i Social science,
Geography, Religion and History for kids of 12 - 16 years. I also am a
hobby historian with the speciallities in the Napoleonic era, Dark Age
Britian/Arthurian myth and the Roman Republic and Empire. I also am a
dedicated roleplayer and breeder of saluki hounds, my age is 50 and I have
one daughter. I also work part-time with my dog boarding house, still I
hope to have some time left over since I during the last year have left
some positions within some of the hobby organisations.

I have twentyfive years of leadership experience as a President and
Director of the Board of non-profit organizations and trade unions. I am
more of a general leader and organizer than financial/economic leader. I
hope my more general experience in the workings of democratic organizations
and their need of strict and correct structure will be to the benefit of
our Res Publica.

I freely admit that I will have to listen and learn, but I am willing to do
that as I go along. I am just starting on the Cursus Honorum so I will
continue to study, listen and learn.


My goals for the office of Quaestor are as follow:

1. As I am convinced that we need taxes for our micronation to develope
Nova Roma, I want to help finding a tax system that is adjusted to the
different currencies and social levels in Europe so the Respublica can be a
whole (all continents).

2. To assisst in the incorporation of Thule into the tax system of Nova Roma.

3. To assist in the growing participation of the Comitia in the decision
making of our Res Publica.

4. To learn and to serve to be able to move up the Cursus Honorum.

with these words I put myself at the disposal of the senior magistrate that
will need my service and promise that I will do my best for the good of our
Res Publica



Ave et salve

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The Cursus Honorum
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 18:28:38 -0700

> Formosanus scripsit: This has been hashed over many times,
> and I suggest that if you feel a continuation of this
> thread is necessary, that you will move it over to
> NR_Dignitas, which was set up to allow in-depth political
> discussion without boring the people on the Main List to
> death by repetition ( a horrible fate! :-).

> LIVIA RESPONDEO:

Oh, please, may the gods rescue the NR_Dignitas list of the
similar death by repetition of the tired rehashing of the
Marius Fimbria affair. Speaking for this Amica, my Dignitas
and Patientias will be sorely tried by continued discussion
of THAT topic there.

Formosanus, if you must persist in basing your candidacy on
Marius' misfortunate, don't kill the Amici Dignitas list as
a place for reasoned AND NON-PARTISAN political debate in
the process.

Livia Cornelia Aurelia




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Subject:	[novaroma] To New Citizens re the Election
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 03:16:25 -0800 (PST)

Salve!

Although this is directed to new citizens of NovaRoma,
all are welcome to read it.

There are times on the list that I am tired of reading
the arguments and discussions. There are many wise
things said on our e-list. There are times that I
wonder what our leaders are thinking. There are times
I am amazed by the knowledge here. I will not go into
details on any of these things, but I will take action
on them.

I will vote.

This is your nation. You have a voice. As a member
of a century and a tribe, you are being asked to
participate in charting a course for all of us. Each
and every one of you who is a citizen of NovaRoma has
a right and a responsibility to cast your vote. Ample
time and good information on the candidates have been
provided.

In our system, one vote carries a lot of weight.
Since we vote by centuries and tribes, one vote may
make the difference in whether or not a candidate is
elected.

As a Rogator, I am not allowed to run for election, so
I'm not asking you to vote for me. I don't feel it's
right for me to endorse any candidates, so I'm not
asking you to vote for anyone else. I just want you
to vote.

Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus

=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." --Jean Rostand

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Subject:	[novaroma] Piscinus and the Roman Republic
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Dec 2000 18:16:50 -0700

> >Piscinus scripsit: Rather than introduce foreign and
> alien innovations into our res
> > publica, I seek to restore the ancient tradition.... As
> a Tribunus Plebis,
> > for my part in that effort, I would seek to restore the
> Comitia Tributa
> > Plebis of Nova Roma on the model of the ancient
> Republic.
>
> Germanicus scripsit: Odd words for someone who not too
> long ago proudly proclaimed "We need
> therefor to design our institutions to future needs, more
> than looking back
> on the model of a republic that ultimately failed."

LIVIA RESPONDEO:
One of the principle reasons the republic failed was the
Civil Wars that broke out between Optimates and Populares,
as embodied in the complex history of friendship and then
opposition between Marius and Cornelius Sulla. When I look
at that quote, taken side by side with Piscinus' recent
posting from his candidacy speech, what strikes me is the
"model of a republic that ultimately failed" which Piscinus
originally spoke against was a warning to us all not to let
Nova Roma degenerate into a war between two factions seeking
to hold power too closely to itself and to the exclusion of
another "faction".

Nova Roma is veering dangerously towards recreating the
worst of the Republic, namely embracing the de facto
division of the state into "Optimates" and "Populares" who
bitterly oppose each other simply because they ARE the
other. Piscinus is not, to my knowledge, one of the persons
propagating this development. Anybody seeking to
concentrate power to their own side, simply because they
cannot stand those "Others" who might introduce a different
interpretation of Roma Antiqua, is setting Nova Roma up for
disaster. There is plenty of room inside our recreation of
the Roman Republic for differences of opinion, quirities.
There is no room for power mongering or hard hearted
rejection of another because their vantage point over Roma
is different from yours.

There are two realities that we are operating with. One is
indeed the recreation of the Roman Republican system....or
rather, as the website says, the BEST of the Roman
Republican system. I challenge anybody who thinks this is a
task to be achieved by reading and researching books, and
then putting together the basic foundational documents, and
stepping away. The "Roman Republican system" itself was
never stablized that way; it's not as simple as drafting a
Constitution and lo! it is born! But this is common
knowledge. The FIRST reality of Nova Roma is that the Roman
Republican system is not a fixed point in time that we can
point to and say....there we are, right there, that is the
moment we are modelling. Rather, there are several hundred
years worth of a changing civic structure to sift through
and find an optimal mixture of "Roman Republicanism" to
recreate that is palatable to all willing to hang on to the
dream.

Who here among us thinks you can singly-handedly solve that
equation, and then apply it to the second reality of Nova
Roma?? Who among you thinks that's even a task that can be
achieved by a cloistered few friends?? Or in the first few
years?? Pointing out that there is room for improvement is
NOT the same thing as saying "let's throw it out and start
over". There is alway something to be improved about any
system that will be living. That somebody sees a next step
to improve does not in itself mean they "abhor" the current
state of affairs.

The second reality of Nova Roma, is building a community of
people interested enough in the experiment of Nova Roma to
stick through the YEARS worth of effort of getting the
optimal mixture of Roman Republicanism. Here is the first
place where we deviate from "Roman Republicanism". For
example, to increase our numbers, we cannot go over the
bridge and make war with the Sabines. First, we have no
bridge and second there are no Sabines. Rather, we are
forced to resort to interacting with modern conventions of
organization building. These functions are pivotal to the
building of the state, though they SHOULD also be managed so
as to be as invisible as possible.

But, tell me.....how will we meet any of the original goals
set for Nova Roma if we don't use modern techology to
communicate (leading us to issues of privacy, skillful use
of media to suit marketing/public relations, and information
management purposes, etc., that the Romans never faced).
How will we meet original goals if we don't declare
ourselves an organization inside a macronation so that we
may take advantage of such things as the liability
protections for local events, laws protecting freedom of
religion, etc., as well as the fiscal matters that will
ensure we really do endure, such as money raising
opportunities and simple participation with other economies;
and, most importantly, being able to even ENGAGE in real
property transactions should that day ever come (opening us
wide to having to adhere to the laws governing the fiscal
and legal management for that type of organization in the
country so organized as well as other countries where we
transact).

Nova Roma will not endure without the willingness not just
to look at the past, but to also address the external world
issues which surround Nova Roma. Look at the 21st century
as the barbarians at the gate, if you must. Like it or not,
it's there, its real, and we have to account for it. That
is what Piscinus means by looking to the future. Ignore the
barbarian, and the state will fall. Think forward, to what
we, collectively, want Nova Roma to be, and it will be
something that endures and bridges two times, one in the
past and one in the future.

The joy of Nova Roma should not be in the final result, it
should be in creating a place where all who are interested
have a role in the process of recreating it.


> Germanicus scripsit: I have to wonder, Piscinius, why you
> are here.

LIVIA RESPONDEO:
Piscinus is here for love of Roma Antiqua. I point out in
his candidacy speech, the excellency of scholarship which he
used to back up his platform.


I, Livia, would be satisfied to have either Gnaeus Moravius
Piscinus or Titus Labienus Fortunatus as a Tribune of the
Plebs. Both have evidenced their fundamental love of Roma
Antiqua to me, and that in their heart they are honorable
men. They have also revealed themselves subject to their
humanity. What more could we ask for from protectors of the
plebiscite, than men who understand the trials and
tribulations of humanity.

Livia Cornelia Aurelia
Citizen and Patrician


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Subject:	[novaroma] Ad Vedium
From:	Gian G Reali <piscinus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 06:54:44 -0800

Salvete Quirites

I am pleased to learn that my web page has proven so valuable to one
candidate for consul. Apparently he has decided to catch up on some of
the issues in these elections, now that he has decided to return,...well,
at least long enough to participate in the elections.

Really, I must wonder. The sudden re-appearance of the *disappearing*
tribune. A lumbering return of the hibernating dictator. And the
sounds these two make, like demagogues flinging epitaphs to strike up
fear. They attempt the tactics employed by Greek Tyrants. Pietas was
betrayed when these two walked away from oaths made before the gods. And
now they seek to make up for their impiety by denouncing Dignitas? But
seriously, take my mouse, please!


http:www.diocletianus.de/elect/piscinus

Gn. Moravius Piscinus
Tribunus Plebis petitor
Flamen Cerealis
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Subject:	[novaroma] Rhetorical Euphemisms
From:	"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 12:16:03 -0000

Salvete Quirites

I would like to add some tone to the political debates as well as making it easier for some of you to articulate your political likes and dislikes. Here's a few euphemisms I thought of this morning:

1. *I* am for Libertas; *You* trust the people a little too much; *He* is an Athenian demagogue.

2. *I* am well-educated; *You* are a scholar; *He* is an overqualified academic intellectual.

3. *I* have served my macronational government; *You* have some experience in public administration; *He* hasn't ever worked in the real world.

4. *I* am conservative; *You* are of the old school; *He* is an old fossil.

5. *I* am a liberal; *You* are a radical; *He* is a dangerous revolutionary.

6. *I* am popular; *You* are well thought of; *He* is surrounded by a crowd of sycophants.

7. *I* am intelligent; *You* are bright; *He* is a smartass.

8. *I* have been asked to run for office by friends; *You* have been nominated by a group of like-minded people; *He* has been put up to this by a secret faction.

9. *I* have worked my way through many public offices; *You* have done your bit for the respublica; *He* is an office-chasing time-server.

10. *I* stand for Roman values; *You* have humanitas; *He* is a Greek, which as all right-thinking people know, is far worse than being a barbarian.

I could go on, but I'd like to leave some room for others to join the game.

In service to the republic (as distinct from *your* well-meaning efforts, and *his* threats to Civilisation),

Vado.





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Subject:	[novaroma] Cursus? What Cursus?
From:	"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 13:07:22 -0000

Avete Quirites

Inquit P. Cassia:

>To turn this into a productive discussion: Can anyone cite an example
>from history of a Roman who made Consul without climbing the Cursus
>Honorum?

Well, I have a vague recollection of several who were rushed through the
Cursus Honorum by their great and powerful patrons and relatives (and
rushing through it dishonours it, to my mind); but the only figure in Roman
history I can think of who made it to Consul from nowhere was Incitatus.

I understand he was a good horse. So am I. ;-)

And the Cassii are good humourists as well as good citizens and good
magistrates. They are both worthy of your vote, citizens.

Bene valete,

Vado.

>"I've spent my whole life climbing up the Roman cursus honorum
>It's all to do with breeding, doesn't matter if you're smart or dumb"
>-M. Cassius & P. Cassia, "Roman Republican"






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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Question from Gryllus
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 14:49:34 -0800

Salve Gn. Moravi Piscine

>When I entered this forum in the past, to discuss or ask questions about
>our res pubilica's Constitution, it was to defend that instrument of our
>governance against a magistrate who sought to abuse his authority by
>expanding on it, and who also perversely undermined the Constitution by
>assuming powers he did not have by it. Another time I stood in this
>forum and referred to historical examples to show that our Senior Consul
>was wrong when he posted that Romans in the ancient Republic held no
>rights. Today that consul seeks the honor of being a Praetor Urbanus.
>The same Fabius who claimed that citizens of Nova Roma have no rights.
>Weigh the words and deeds carefully. Who among us, Gryllus, defends the
>Vedian Constitution? Who stands to defend the rights our Constitution
>claims for our citizens? Whose voice demands to be heard in the name of
>justice, and who assumes titles to play at being a puppet master?
What a coincidence Piscine! By that time, when I tried to stop the harmful
discussion that was taking place on the main list, and which led to the
citizenship resignation of many valuable citizens - and many more would
ensue - some of the members of the Amici Dignitatis were the ones who were
enticing and spreading the negative feelings about our institutions. In no
way I tried to shut up the main list. I just wanted to make a pause on the
discussion and to limit the way people addressed each other. Having seen an
almost disruption of Nova Roma in the past (you were not here yet, were
you?), I was affraid of seeing another, and I moved. Though the intention
was good, it proved to be an error. I've paid my fair price. Nevertheless,
if I can claim any virtue at all, it was that of having kept control not
using harsh words not even to respond to those who insulted me. In some way,
I imposed onto myself the very same edict others did not want to accept. And
as you see, I'm retiring from politics this here, so that I can find the
time to reflect on my virtues and my errors.

>I join with the candidates for consul, Cassius Julianus and Moravius
>Vado, in calling for a judicial system being delineated for Nova Roma.
>One with clear and understandable procedures written down for all
>Citizens to see. No longer should it be allowed for an individual to
>secretly present charges before a Praetor, without the defendant ever
>told of the charges, or even that a hearing is being held without his
>presence. No longer should we allow citizens to be judged in secret
>where they are denied the right to a defense. Such a call, Gryllus, for
>the creation of a legal system is by no means contrary to the Vedian
>Constitution or to ancient precedent. The Vedian Constitution does
>provide that our Comitia be held as public courts. The Vedian
>Constitution provides that each Comitia may pass legislature to govern
>its own procedures.
Piscine, I've not judged anyone in secret. I have pronounced no veredict.
There were no secret charges. I have only received one charge, which was
dropped shortly afterwards and as such was nullified (that's the reason why
I did not make it public).


>Gryllus, you ask if I would attempt to introduce foreign elements into
>our society that so honors the Republic of ancient Rome. Am I one who
>affixes Greek to his name? <snip>
I applaud your rethorics, Piscine! But aren't you the one who defends that
the Roman Republican system is prone to failure?
You don't know the reason why I append "Greek" to my name. Nevertheless, I
assure you, it is not because I consider myself a Greek or have any plans to
change Nova Roma into Nova Athenas.

Finally, I remind you that you are the candidate, not me. And as such, if
anyone has to clarify political ideas to the people, it is you and not me.

Vale dignissime candidate
Antonius Gryllus Graecus


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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Ad Vedium
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 09:50:58 -0500

Salve,

I must say, I find it interesting that, rather than address a single point
or question put to you, you merely took the opportunity here to attack the
character and motives of not only Flavius Vedius Germanicus, but Gnaeus
Tarquinius Caesar as well.

I would much prefer to see some concrete answers and explanations from you.
If all you can offer when questioned is an attack on the questioner, I do
believe we have to wonder about your fitness for duty. After all, a basic
tenet of office is the ability to deal in a forthright and polite manner
with all citizens, regardless of politics and regardless of personal
feelings. If you are incapable of that here, in the time of elections, I do
believe we must question what you would do when you "aren't" trying
(presumably) to win votes and influence people.

For the record, yes I do have a definite "tie" to Germanicus. A simple look
at my name will confirm that I am, indeed, his wife. However, any cive who
thinks my concerns and questions are based on familial loyalty are quite
mistaken. ;)

Now, good Piscinius, I await some answers to the questions and points
addressed to you. Without the attacks and avoidance this time, please.

Vale,

Priscilla Vedia Serena



-----Original Message-----
> From: Gian G Reali [mailto:piscinus@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 9:55 AM
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] Ad Vedium
>
>
> Salvete Quirites
>
> I am pleased to learn that my web page has proven so valuable to one
> candidate for consul. Apparently he has decided to catch up on some of
> the issues in these elections, now that he has decided to return,...well,
> at least long enough to participate in the elections.
>
> Really, I must wonder. The sudden re-appearance of the
> *disappearing*
> tribune. A lumbering return of the hibernating dictator. And the
> sounds these two make, like demagogues flinging epitaphs to strike up
> fear. They attempt the tactics employed by Greek Tyrants. Pietas was
> betrayed when these two walked away from oaths made before the gods. And
> now they seek to make up for their impiety by denouncing Dignitas? But
> seriously, take my mouse, please!
>
>
> http:www.diocletianus.de/elect/piscinus
>
> Gn. Moravius Piscinus
> Tribunus Plebis petitor
> Flamen Cerealis
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
>
>
>
>


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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Piscinus and the Roman Republic
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 14:54:39 -0800

Salve Livia Cornelia Aurelia

>One of the principle reasons the republic failed was the
>Civil Wars that broke out between Optimates and Populares,
>as embodied in the complex history of friendship and then
>opposition between Marius and Cornelius Sulla. When I look
>at that quote, taken side by side with Piscinus' recent
>posting from his candidacy speech, what strikes me is the
>"model of a republic that ultimately failed" which Piscinus
>originally spoke against was a warning to us all not to let
>Nova Roma degenerate into a war between two factions seeking
>to hold power too closely to itself and to the exclusion of
>another "faction".
>Nova Roma is veering dangerously towards recreating the
>worst of the Republic, namely embracing the de facto
>division of the state into "Optimates" and "Populares" who
>bitterly oppose each other simply because they ARE the
>other. Piscinus is not, to my knowledge, one of the persons
>propagating this development.
Livia, if you are able to identify one of the factions with the Optimates,
why are you not able to identify the Amici Dignitatis with the Populares?
Isn't the Amici Dignitatis the main group that brings bitter discussion to
the NR lists and the groups that mostly contributes - I'm here being
neutral, for I'm not judging whether they are right or not; a fact is a
fact - to the discredit of the current Constitution, Senators and
Magistrates?

Vale
Antonius Gryllus Graecus


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Subject:	[novaroma] Milestone reached
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 02 Dec 2000 06:52:21 -0800

Ave!

Today, I have just approved citizen number 600!!!! :)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor


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Subject:	[novaroma] Final version of Senate agenda
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 10:36:36 EST

Salvete omnes

Below is the agenda currently before the Senate, which is now in the
process of voting. It appears clear (to me) at this point that the votes
and associated comments (if any) of the individual senators will be
posted with (or possibly after) the results. That is to say, that
proposal seems to be receiving overwhelming approval.

This version of the agenda included a large amount of supportive
material, some of which I have snipped out for the purposes of this post.
I believe that the full texts will be posted in our archives somewhere
for those who want to read every word.

Valete,

Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
Tribunus Plebis


>Item the First. (Rewritten)
>Reimbursement procedure for Magistrates of Nova Roma
>
>Elected magistrates and their appointees will be reimbursed by the
>Central Treasury for reasonable expenses incurred in the day-to-day
>operation of Nova Roma. These include, but are not limited to:
>printing and mailing the Eagle, hosting the Nova Roma Web site, and
>necessary mailing costs connected with the Censors' Office when
>dealing with those who lack Internet access.
>
>Magistrates are expected to be frugal in the use of Nova Roma's
>resources, using e-mail instead of making long-distance calls,
>and seeking help from other Citizens rather than paying for services in the
>macronational marketplace. Magistrates who wish to implement more costly
>systems of getting their jobs done (such as saving information on paper
>rather then disks) are welcome to do so by contributing their own resources.
>
>There will be no funds advanced to Magistrates. To receive reimbursement,
>a magistrate must submit (to a Quaestor designated by the Consuls) proof
>of the expenditure (a receipt, not a hand written note) and an
>explanation of its purpose (this may be hand written). If the request is
>reasonable, the Quaestor will approve it for payment.
>If there is an issue which blocks the reimbursement which cannot be resolved
>between the Quaestor and the magistrate, the Senate may be asked to
adjudicate
>or to appoint a disinterested party to do so. Such decision will be final.
>
>Reimbursement for expenses occurred in special projects (including but not
>limited to) new Macellum products; public-service projects, outreach
>efforts;
>as well as Special Events, must be approved by the Senate, approval being
>based on a statement from the applicant with an estimate of the costs
>involved and the benefits
>to Nova Roma of the project's implementation. If funds are promised, the
>Senate will decide if the money should be advanced to the applicant or
>withheld until completion.
>In either case the applicant upon completing the project will submit all
>receipts as indicated in the original estimate. The amount of reimbursement
>will be limited to the received receipts. Missing receipts will receive no
>reimbursement, and if money was advanced will have to repaid to the
>Treasury .
>If the project appears to be going over approved budget, the applicant may
>return to the Senate and ask for additional money. The Senate is not
>obligated to give any additional money.
>The applicant is expected to complete project on unless a compelling reason
>is presented as to why the applicant can not. If it is not completed, the
>applicant will receive no reimbursement unless otherwise decided by the
>Senate.
>
>Item the Second (Rewritten)
>It is proposed that Nova Roma enact the following policy on
> financial controls:
>
> To safeguard the integrity of Nova Roma's Treasury, at least two
> Quaestors will be appointed by the Senate to oversee the administration of
>its account. The first, the Quaestor Aerarium, will have the authority to
>issue checks for approved purposes and will make deposits of monies
>received. The second, the Quaestor Librum, will perform monthly bank
>reconciliations and make timely reports to the Senate and People of amounts
>received and spent, but will have no authority to write checks on the
>Treasury account.
>
> The Quaestor Aerarium will add the Consuls as signatories to the
> Treasury account at the beginning of their term (and remove them at the end
>of said term). In the event that the Quaestor Aerarium cannot complete his
>or her term, the Consuls will manage the Treasury until they appoint an
>existing Quaestor to the post or hold a new election.
>
>In the event of a dispute between the two Quaestors, or of any
>question regarding their work, the Senate may vote to investigate the
>Quaestors' work by appointing a responsible individual to do so, said
>appointment to last no more than 30 days and conclude with a thorough report
>to the Senate.
>
> Both the Quaestor Aerarium and the Quaestor Librum have the
> additional responsibility of informing the Consuls as soon as
> possible if they cannot complete their terms in office. This should
> be standard procedure for all elected posts, but should be mandatory for
>these two jobs because of their importance to Nova Roma.
>
> This procedure, with two officials providing checks on each other's
> work, will be followed for any future bank accounts set up in Nova
> Roma's name and using Nova Roma's tax identification number.
>
> II. It is proposed that Nova Roma purchase bonding insurance for
> members of the following group -- Quaestor Aerarium, the Quaestor
> Librum and the Consuls -- who live in the United States of America.
> This is intended to protect Nova Roma against possible theft of funds by
>people holding said offices. It requires the payment of a fee and the
>submission of personal information about said office-holders to the bonding
>agency.
>
>Item the Third
>Legio V Alaudae (The Larks) request Nova Roma Sponsorship
>
>Salvete, Senate Patres,
>I thank you for this opportunity. Legio V will always uphold the vision,
>ideals of Nova Roma in all our activities. We will promote Nova Roma to all
>who come in contact with us. We sincerely hope to have a long lasting
>relationship with Nova Roma. Thank You.
>Ave Atque Vale
>Gaius Atilius Lepidus
>Centurio Primus Pilus Legio V Alaudae
>SPQR
>APPLICATION follows (Posted seperatly)
>FOR LEGIO SPONSORSHIP NOVA ROMA
> Name of Legio: Legio V Alaudae
> Legio address: 401 Grimes St, Ft Bragg,NC 28310
> Legio email address. PaulFitsik@-------- or dragoon_trooper@yahoo.com
>Website URL: ttp://community.webtv.net/paulfitsik/LegioVAlaudae
>City, State, Country of Legio Encampment(station): Ft Bragg, NC USA
>LEGIO PARTICULARS:
[snipped for brevity - LSAO]
>
>Item the Fourth. Incorperation of Switzerland into Germania.
>When the Senate decided in February to establish the province of Germania it
>held that it should comprise the states of Austria and Germany. This was as
>mainly due to the advantages of a common language (German) and the small
>territory of Austria proper which would not have been enough to form a
>separate province.
>But to the understanding of the censors, according to the e-mail addresses
>received, citizens of Germania are also to be found in Switzerland which for
>a large part also shares the same language as Austria and Germany does. We
>ask you, Conscript Fathers, to add the territory of Switzerland to the
>provincia Germania.
>
>Item the Fifth,
>Certification of the Sodalitus Musarum as a Nova Roman Sodalitus.
>
>Item the Sixth
>Quintus Sertorius has asked to be considered for appointment as
>propraetor of Canada Occidentalis.
>
>Item the Seventh
>The The Praetor of Germania has requested that Senate might approve the
>opening of the Limes Cooperation between the Provinces.
>Background
>The Limes Cooperation was founded with the basic tasks to
>- exchange experiences and know-how in all matters of provincial
>administration,
>- work together for researching the common history
>- make experiences with such a form of inter-provincial cooperation, to
>bring in those experiences in a further, greater cooperation of
>interested provinces.
>
>- Website Development
>-- working out basic standards for Nova Roma provincial websites,
>-- giving tips for the design,
>-- basic information for reserving an internet domain
>-- information about free internet services (message boards, counters
>etc.)
>-- basic webhosting for provinces without website: We could offer such
>provinces some space under the domain novaroma.de for 3 html-pages to
>present their province. The province might have some time then (e.g. 6
>month) to search for an own provider. Then the pages are moved to the
>new provider. A link to the new adress is included.
>
>- Researching and presentation of the common history
>The Cooperation will be presented on an own page under the Germania
>homepage. On this page basic informations about the CooperationYens tasks
>and aims will be displayed.
>
>Furthermore, a Egroups-group is now established for the purposes of the
>Cooperation. This group is non-public, only provincial magistrates,
>Senators and central magistrates are accepted as members. A link to
>this group will be made on the Cooperation page under the Germania
>homepage.
>
>this group is in test at the moment. When the senate gives itYens
>approval, the page an the access to the group will be set up.
>
>Item the Eighth.
>Internal Senate Proceedures.
>Per Section V, Paragraph F of the constitution: The Senate may issue a
>Consultum governing it's internal proceedures
>
>A. Senate Privacy.
>The Senate shall conduct its business within full view of the
> Citizenry. This will be implemented by allowing all Citizens to read
> (but not post on) the Senate e-mail list.
>
> Exceptions will be made in specific cases involving lawsuits by or
> against Nova Roma; issues of hiring and firing paid personnel, should Nova
>Roma ever have such; and issues which if exposed to the public eye would
>result in the unacceptable invasion of a Citizen's privacy.
>In such cases, the Senate will retire into "executive session,"
>achieved by the setting up of a non-public e-mail list, which will be
>used only for the discussion of that issue and then disbanded. The
>Consuls will be responsible for setting up and deleting
>executive-session lists, and ensuring that such lists are used only
>for discussing issues which qualify under the categories outlined
>above.
>
>B. II. The votes of individual Senators, along with any rationales they
>offer with their votes (i.e. in the same e-mail as the vote itself),
>will be made available to the Citizens by the Tribunes of the Plebs,
>either by forwarding them to the main Nova Roma e-mail list or by
>posting them to the Nova Roma web site. Senators wishing to make remarks,
>but
>not to have them forwarded to the general Citizenry, may do so in a separate
>message. This would done by the Tribune(s) of the Plebians
>
>Item the Ninth.(rewritten)
>Electorial procedure
> For those magisterial elections where multiple candidates are
> elected simultaneously to serve as colleagues in the same
>office, such as Consul, Praetor Urbanis, Tribunis Plebis, etc., the
>Constitution does not specify whether citizens should vote for
> one candidate or vote for multiple candidates.
>
> Past elections have had no legally-mandated standard for how
> the votes should be counted. The method used has resulted in
> votes being neutralized, with votes for multiple candidates
> cancelling each other out, even in one-person centuries.
>
> To ensure a consistent standard for future elections,
> these two mutually exclusive proposals are now placed before
> the Senate:
>
> A. "One Vote"
> The Senate instructs the Rogatores, Curator Araneae,
> Curule Aediles, and all others involved with the voting
> procedure as follows:
> - That the ballot and all instructions given to the citizens
> indicate that a citizen should vote for no more than one
> candidate for each office.
> - That any program collecting the votes should enforce this
> restriction, if possible.
> - That the Rogatores be instructed to discard any vote where
> multiple candidates have been selected for the same office,
> and award each tribe or century to the one winning candidate
> within that tribe or century.
>
> B. "Multiple Votes, Ties Awarded to All"
> To ensure that no vote is neutralized as a result of there
> being a tie within a tribe or century, to facilitate the
> voting for a team of candidates, and to ensure that the
> will of the people is accurately reflected in the vote results,
> we do enact the following policies for election procedures:
> - A citizen may vote for as many candidates for a given office
> as there are vacancies for that office.
> - The Curator Araneae is instructed to place that instruction
> on the ballot form.
> - The Rogatores, when calculating the winning candidate for a
> tribe or century, shall award that tribe or century to the
> candidate with the most votes within that tribe or century.
> In the event of a tie within a tribe or century, that tribe
> or century will be awarded to each of the candidates who share
> first place in that tie vote, and that tribe or century will
> be counted for each of them when computing results.
>
>Item the Tenth (rewritten)
>Addition of a Third Rogator.
>To include a third elected or appointed Rogator, with only two needed to
>oversee the electoral process.
> This has several attractive features. First, it allows on the job training
>for the new Rogator, second, if we lose one we have a backup ready and we
>can
>hold elections for a third, immediately. The solution would keep our
>government from being paralyzed as it was for most of this year, when it
>came
>to summoning the Comitia.
>
>Item the Eleventh
>After an expanse of time considering how I might best serve the needs of the

>populace of Nova Roma in the next year, I have decided to humbly request
that
>you consider me as a candidate for Propraetrix Canada Orientalis.
[snipped for brevity - LSAO]
> Bene valete,
> Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
> Scriba Consula
> Legata Navalis, Sodalitas Militarium
> Legata Fabra Sodalitas Egressus
> Obstetrix pro tempore Musarum Delecti
>
>Item the Twelth.
>Lucius Pompeius Octavianus requests the creation of a province called
>Argentina and requests the Provincial Praetorship.
>

Finis

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Piscinus and the Roman Republic
From:	hendrik.meuleman@--------
Date:	Sat, 02 Dec 2000 15:41:12 -0000

Salve, Praetor Grylle!

Livia dixit:

> >One of the principle reasons the republic failed was the
> >Civil Wars that broke out between Optimates and Populares,
> >as embodied in the complex history of friendship and then
> >opposition between Marius and Cornelius Sulla. When I look
> >at that quote, taken side by side with Piscinus' recent
> >posting from his candidacy speech, what strikes me is the
> >"model of a republic that ultimately failed" which Piscinus
> >originally spoke against was a warning to us all not to let
> >Nova Roma degenerate into a war between two factions seeking
> >to hold power too closely to itself and to the exclusion of
> >another "faction".
> >Nova Roma is veering dangerously towards recreating the
> >worst of the Republic, namely embracing the de facto
> >division of the state into "Optimates" and "Populares" who
> >bitterly oppose each other simply because they ARE the
> >other. Piscinus is not, to my knowledge, one of the persons
> >propagating this development.

Gryllus Graecus dixit:

> Livia, if you are able to identify one of the factions with the
Optimates,
> why are you not able to identify the Amici Dignitatis with the
Populares?
> Isn't the Amici Dignitatis the main group that brings bitter
discussion to
> the NR lists and the groups that mostly contributes - I'm here being
> neutral, for I'm not judging whether they are right or not; a fact
is a
> fact - to the discredit of the current Constitution, Senators and
> Magistrates?

As much as I regret this, bitter discussion is sometimes inevitable.
However, as I said before, the Amici are being demonized. Although
the link between the AD and the ancient Populares can be easily made,
I think you should see that this AD flows forth from another group of
people who work together here in Nova Roma. Is a group agreement in
Nova Roma (without being a party) that is not a faction forbidden?
Did I ever insist on a division of Nova Roma into "populares"
and "optimates"? I merely want to point out that there
are "populares" because until now all we seem to have seen
are "optimates". Nevertheless, polarizing is unhealthy business!
People are free to have and express any opinion they want. If an
Amicus doesn't agree with one individual, this *does not* mean all
Amici feel the same way, as much as your opinion is also that of an
individual, so is Livia's, and so is mine.

Vale bene!
Sextus Apollonius Draco,
Candidate for Aedilis Plebis


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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Cursus Honorum
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 16:52:12 +0100

M. Apollonius Formosanus Censori L. Cornelio Sullae et omnibus
Quiritibus S.P.D.

In the following message:

Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 16:37:14 -0800
From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum

you, Sulla, quote an address I made in which I praised the notion of
basing Nova Roman legal gender on macronational legal gender. I will
go still further to prove his case by telling you all that to the
best of my knowledge and memory I was the *first* to propose the idea
on the open Main List.

Despite this fact, I changed my mind. Some of us are capable of
that! After my posting I was criticised by a civis worried that since
different cives were in different macronational jurisdictions, we
would be perpetrating inequalities among our own citizens if we
followed the rulings of different macronations.

I thought about that, and I observed the way in which the law was
administered, principally by Censor Sulla, in a manner construing all
the interpretable and discretionary aspects in a way making the
process extremely difficult and burdensome to the name-change
applicant. This has inflected considerable stress and emotion
suffering on the person in question without any obvious benefit to
Nova Roma.

Having taken such things into consideration, I months ago decided
that the principle I had originally proposed as a compromise would
not function, as I had reasonably hoped, in making name changes
available for those who needed them.

Both the directly affected party and I now believe that a
modification of the Edictum de Nominibus Mutandis is absolutely
necessary. It may please Censor Sulla, but it does not please the
minority whose position was supposedly to have been amicably
regulated by it.

Sulla may think he has scored a point against me by pointing out my
"inconsistency". His demonstrated psychology of obstinately sticking
to his right to impose his will on a private citizen and stonewalling
at any attempt to get this corrected from outside would seem to show
that he associates this with some virtue.

I trust, however, that my more modest willingness to rethink things
in the light of experience will seem the more sensible approach to
the voters.

Valete!
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus << CANDIDATVS PRAETORIVS >>
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius              
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________


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Subject:	[novaroma] Cursus Honorum in history
From:	Gian G Reali <piscinus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 11:06:51 -0800

Salve Patricia Cassia et Quirites:

Lost beneath the torrent of political verbiage of late, I believe
Patricia asked a question on whether there were historical examples of
magistrates in ancient Rome that attained their positions without first
climbing the cursus honorum. Of course Pompei would first come to mind
as one achieving the consulship without passing through the sullatorian
cursus honorum. But the cursus honorum was a late development in the
long history of the Republic, and was in fact never officially, or even
traditionally adopted in Rome.

The cursus honorum was more of a myth than a reality in ancient Rome.
It was perhaps proposed by a small oligarchical group of patricians in an
attempt to exclude plebeians from magistracies. Sulla attempted to later
institute this pretense at the expense of plebeians. But the truth was
quite different from what the oligarchs portrayed.

From the very beginning of the Republic men such as L. Junius Brutus,
the very first Consul, were in fact plebeian. For a list of Plebeian
Consuls of the first portion of the Republican era (509 - 445 bce) we
have:

L. Junius Brutus 509
Sp. Cassius Vicelinus 502, 493, 486
Post. Cominius Auruncus 501, 493
M' Tullius Longus 500
M. Minucius Augurinus 497, 491
P. Minucius Augurinus 492
T. Siccius Sabinus 487
C. Aquillius Tuscus 487
T. Numicius Priscus 469
P. Volumnius Amintinus Galus 461
L. Minucius Esquilinus Augurinus 458
Q. Minucius Esquilinus 457
Sp. Tarpeius Mont. Capitolinus 454
A. Aternius Varus Fontinalis 454
T. Genucius 451
M. Genucius Augurinus 445
*T.J.Cornell: "The Beginnings of Rome", 1995

In the period of 444 - 367 bce the Consulate was often replaced by
Tribuni Militum Consulari Potestate, or the consular tribunes. A list of
these can be found at
http://www.ghg.net/shelter/rome/rulers/tribunes.html

From 376 to 367 bce Tribuni Plebis Licinius Stolo and Sextus Laternus
agitated for a number of leges, one of which mandated that at least one
Consul must be Plebian. The first of these Plebeian Consuls was Lucius
Sextius. In the years that followed the office of dictator was opened to
the Plebeians (356 bce), followed by the office of Censor in the ius
honorum (351 bce). Plebeian right to hold the office of Consul was
reaffirmed in the Lex Genucia (342 bce). The Leges Publiliae (339bce),
that eliminated the patrum aucoritas as a means for patricians to inhibit
the functions of the Comitia Tributa Plebis, also mandated that one
Censor must be a Plebeian, by a ius honorum plebis. A list of the
Censors of Republican Rome, Patrician and Plebeian, from 280 bce down to
the Augustan Principate may be found at
http://wwwtc.nhmccd.cc.tx.us/people/crt01/rome/censor.html You may
note the gap in the line of Censors after 85 bce when Sulla abolished the
office, until 70 bce. The agitation by Tribune Macer, arguing for the
restoration of the tribunician powers in 73 bce, also lead to the
restoration of the Censorate as a Republican check on such unscrupulous
magistrates like Sulla.

A good point to note in all of this is that the first Plebeian to attain
a position of Praetor was Q. Publius Philo in 337 bce. Initially the
highest office in Rome was the Praetor, although we normally use the
later term of Consul for that office. The Praetor, distinct from a
Consul, became an assistant to a Consul when that office was set up in
the Licinius-Laternus Leges of 367 bce. Increasingly, after 367 bce, the
path to the Consulship went through Plebeian offices, with Tribunes in
one year becoming the Consul in the following year. The starting point
of the much later cursus honorum began with the quaestorship, an office
that originated with the Plebeians alone. Likewise, the next rung on the
ladder to success was the Aedileship or the Tribunate, both of which
originated strictly among the Plebeians. In some regards the Tribunate
was considered a necessary stepping stone to becoming the Aedile Plebis.
Or consider the case of Tiberius Gracchus who not only had held the
Consulship on occasion, but had been Censor in 169 bce, before he ever
became Tribune 36 years later.
The most notable Plebeian (at least today) to have actually passed
through what seems like a cursus honorum was M. Porcius Cato: Quaestor
204, Aedile 199, Praetor 198, Consul 195, and Censor 184 bce. But he
would be more an exception than an example for a cursus honorum. It is
not until shortly after Cato that the distinction of the various
magistracies became a progressive system of offices in a stepped
hierarchy. Even then, the order one attained office was not very clear
until the time of Sulla. What Sulla attempted to do was an innovation,
not a restoration. That later Optimates attempted to justify a
sullatorian cursus honorum by alluding to historical examples should
really be regard for what it was, political propaganda against a
restoration of the tributi potestes limited by Sulla.

For a brief argument on the changing institutions in the later period of
the Republic, I would suggest Mary Beard and Michael Crawford, "Rome in
the Late Republic," 1985.

Di deaeque vos incolumes custodiant.

Gn. Moravius Piscinus
Flamen Cerealis
Tribunus Plebis petitor
________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] For Livia
From:	Gian G Reali <piscinus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 11:08:14 -0800

Salvete Livia et Quirites:

Livia Cornelia scripsit:


LIVIA RESPONDEO:
Piscinus is here for love of Roma Antiqua. I point out in
his candidacy speech, the excellency of scholarship which he
used to back up his platform.

I, Livia, would be satisfied to have either Gnaeus Moravius
Piscinus or Titus Labienus Fortunatus as a Tribune of the
Plebs. Both have evidenced their fundamental love of Roma
Antiqua to me, and that in their heart they are honorable
men. They have also revealed themselves subject to their
humanity. What more could we ask for from protectors of the
plebiscite, than men who understand the trials and
tribulations of humanity.

Livia Cornelia Aurelia
Citizen and Patrician


Livia Cornelia has often made a passionate and vigorous argument for her
points of view. I know her as one who is also willing to listen to the
arguments of those who disagree with her. She is person who is always
sensative to other views, and is always willing to build bridges between
opposing sides. I am very proud to have the endorsement of such a fine
Roman lady. Gratiam multam te ago.

Gn. Moravius Piscinus
Civis Novae Romae
Flamen Cerealis
Tribunus Plebis petitor

________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Formosanus Duplicity
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 02 Dec 2000 07:48:34 -0800

Ave

So, let me get this straight...so that the People of Nova Roma understand
this. I publish and Edicta, its a harsh edicta I admit it. I get alot of
backlash. Including your post. Which I cited (message 13138 NR archives).
As a result of that, C. Marius Merullus, T. Labienus and I contributed to a
revision of that Edicta that essentially meets 100% of your recommendations and
your still not happy with it? That is essentially what you are saying to the
People of Nova Roma? Right? And you expect the People of Nova Roma to vote
for you as Praetor when you show conclusively that when you do get your way you
still arent happy?

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

"M. Apollonius Formosanus" wrote:

> M. Apollonius Formosanus Censori L. Cornelio Sullae et omnibus
> Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
> In the following message:
>
> Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 16:37:14 -0800
> From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
> Subject: Re: The Cursus Honorum
>
> you, Sulla, quote an address I made in which I praised the notion of
> basing Nova Roman legal gender on macronational legal gender. I will
> go still further to prove his case by telling you all that to the
> best of my knowledge and memory I was the *first* to propose the idea
> on the open Main List.
>
> Despite this fact, I changed my mind. Some of us are capable of
> that! After my posting I was criticised by a civis worried that since
> different cives were in different macronational jurisdictions, we
> would be perpetrating inequalities among our own citizens if we
> followed the rulings of different macronations.
>
> I thought about that, and I observed the way in which the law was
> administered, principally by Censor Sulla, in a manner construing all
> the interpretable and discretionary aspects in a way making the
> process extremely difficult and burdensome to the name-change
> applicant. This has inflected considerable stress and emotion
> suffering on the person in question without any obvious benefit to
> Nova Roma.
>
> Having taken such things into consideration, I months ago decided
> that the principle I had originally proposed as a compromise would
> not function, as I had reasonably hoped, in making name changes
> available for those who needed them.
>
> Both the directly affected party and I now believe that a
> modification of the Edictum de Nominibus Mutandis is absolutely
> necessary. It may please Censor Sulla, but it does not please the
> minority whose position was supposedly to have been amicably
> regulated by it.
>
> Sulla may think he has scored a point against me by pointing out my
> "inconsistency". His demonstrated psychology of obstinately sticking
> to his right to impose his will on a private citizen and stonewalling
> at any attempt to get this corrected from outside would seem to show
> that he associates this with some virtue.
>
> I trust, however, that my more modest willingness to rethink things
> in the light of experience will seem the more sensible approach to
> the voters.
>
> Valete!
> Marcus Apollonius Formosanus << CANDIDATVS PRAETORIVS >>
> Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
> Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius
> ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
> Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
> The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
> Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
> ________________________________________
> Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
> (Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
> ________________________________________
>


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Subject:	[novaroma] The Curatrix Sermonem speaks
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Sat, 02 Dec 2000 17:39:12 -0000

While I was away yesterday and this morning -- working, making
offerings to Bona Dea and casting my vote in the Senate -- various
posts have occurred which violate the rule against personal attacks.
The violators have been asked to refrain, and I now make that request
of all.

In a political season it is perfectly reasonable to disagree on
issues, to question a candidate's record or to make endorsements.
What is not acceptable is to impute ill qualities to any person or
group. Thus "Your vote was idiotic" is acceptable, "You are an idiot"
is not.

In addition, one's own personal dignitas is not enhanced by engaging
in negative debates. We have seen some commendable examples of people
who have managed to keep disagreements focused on the issues, and
civil in tone; who have endorsed candidates for their positive
qualities, rather than bashing their opponents for the lack of same;
and who have shown a thoughtful interest in the ancient antecedents
of our current struggles. To those who have done such things, I
hereby offer public thanks.

I will remain as active as I can in the turbulent days ahead. If a
post occurs which seems to you to violate the guidelines for this
list, please feel free to forward it to me privately.

Patricia Cassia
Curatrix Sermonem (list moderator)




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question for Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar
From:	SyanneRose@--------
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 13:09:52 EST

In a message dated 12/1/00 1:57:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,
hendrik.meuleman@-------- writes:

<< S. Apollonius Draco Gn. Tarquinio Caesari SPD,

I would like to ask you a question, o Tribune. In my time of membership here
in Nova Roma, I have rarely seen you as an active Tribunus. In fact, and this
is not a lie, for a long time I always thought we had only one Tribunus!!
Suddenly you have come alive and are posting several messages here, including
your candidacy. Why should our Quirites be voting for a Tribunus that is
invisible mostly of the time, and awakes from hibernation when elections are
coming up? Mind though, this is not meant to be a personal attack, but a
question. Why do we so seldomly hear from you? And why should we vote for you?
>>

Aeternia:: Avete Omnes, Forgive me Draco et all, this may sound rude and
terse.
These are good questions you are asking Draco, yet I will have to disagree to
a point. Sometimes things happen in our own lives outside Nova Roma that
make us invisible at times. Surely you can understand that can't you? Forgive
me again if my response sounds rude and out of line but this shook me.

Valete
Aeternia Iulia Caesaria

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Subject:	[novaroma] Candidate for Praetor
From:	"Marius Cornelius" <tengu@-------->
Date:	Sat, 02 Dec 2000 18:31:35 -0000

Salve, Senatus et Populusque Romanum:

I, Marius Cornelius Scipio, humbly stand before you to announce my
intention to stand as candidate for Praetor of Nova Roma. I am 35
years old, a resident of and a Legate thereof of the California
Provincia. I have worked for the past 10 years in the US Federal
Government, with assignments on both the military and civilian sides
of the house. During this time, it has been among my duties to
interpret laws and regulations, to reconcile differing points of
view, to act as a diplomatic liasion between our Navy and foreign
ones. This experience is what prompts me to stand for the post of
Praetor.

I intend to discharge the duties of this office, if I am elected,
with a firm view that Iustitia is served, that factionalism and
favoritism are not countenanced, and the Republican principles of
Nova Roma are respected and obeyed during my tenure. As a college
student, I worked as a Security Officer and had the opportunity to
work with local law enforcement agencies. As a Navy civilian, I have
worked with local and Federal law enforcement agencies. This
experience is what I expect to use as reference if elected - but
always with an eye to obey and serve the laws of Nova Roma when
acting in her interest, and no others.

Please feel free to contact me at tengu@-------- if you wish to
discuss my views on subjects appertaining to Nova Roma, or simply
wish to talk to me.

Vale!
Marius Cornelius Scipio


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Subject:	[novaroma] Up the Celtae
From:	"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 18:11:43 -0000

Salve Tiberi Hiberni

Scripsisti:
>I don't speak here often, mostly when something just gets my attention or
>gets my Irish up ( indeed, I am a Roman, but a Celt as well). Although I am
>mostly quiet that does not mean I am asleep.

I'm a Roman "Celt", too. Though I don't much care for ethnic stereotyping (a
lot of nonsense was invented by the English from the 16thC. to our own,
about the so-called "Celtic Temperament", to justify the fact that the
sober, solid, level-headed "Anglo-Saxon" English took it upon themselves
to rule them (for their own good, of course):

"Oh, the Celts - more courage than sense. Too emotional, you see. And highly
superstitious. Creative, but childlike. They make excellent musicians and
boxers, but they really can't be trusted with government..." Sounds very
familiar, doesn't it?

Pseudo-ethnology apart, I think most of us (Roman citizens, whether Italian,
German, Gaul, Greek, African etc.) would rather get drunk and sing than get
angry and fight. But
if someone starts a fight in a public place, as Tarquinius did with his
outrageous insults, broadcast at several candidates without naming them, a
bit of ridicule is about the mildest response he can reasonably expect. If
someone walked into an bar they had hardly ever shown their face in, and
then screamed abuse at several people at once, calling them child-corrupting
terrorists who weren't proper men - what do you think would happen?

>A few have suggested that Gnaeus Tarquinius has been "asleep" for the past
>year because he does not speak often on this list. In light of that, I ask
>you... is the best and most effective leader the one who is most visible?
>Or the one who promotes stability and prosperity with little personal
>fanfare?

Your objection is good and reasonable - except insofar as it relates to Cn.
Tarquinius.
It is not so much his silence on this list that is in question (though would
you really expect a Tribune of the Plebs, your representative to the Senate,
not to post here?), so much as his utter neglect of his duties as Tribune,
saving only one occasion when he was persuaded to
negate the veto of his colleague and thereby compromise the sacred integrity
of his office by nullifying the Tribunate entirely - a state of affairs
unheard of in ancient Rome.

Accusing the man (note that I use the word without Tarquinius' offensive
inverted commas) of sleeping on the job is giving him the benefit of doubt,
in my opinion. After months of inactivity and absence from anywhere in NR
that I know of, he appeared in this forum, broadcasting hysterical
allegations, telling the cives they'd never had it so good, but that they
never would again if they voted for the people he'd insulted and accused but
wouldn't name, and then insisting that some of the credit of our
micronational peace and political stability was due to him. So we should all
vote for him again. Do you really think this is reasonable behaviour?

>As yourselves this question... has the past year been stable and prosperous
>or not?

I have done so. The answer is, of course, yes. But please ask yourself this
question in turn, mi Hiberni: Would we not have progressed further in
developing our laws, our judicial system, our fiscal procedures, if there
had been more Tribunician activity? Admittedly we needed two Rogatores to
make the Comitia work, and rarely had them, but was there any Tribunician
activity from Tarquinius, urging the cives to volunteer so he could do his
job better? I thought I'd better ask him, because I didn't notice him doing
anything.

> I have not been here long enough to answer that question for
>myself, which I refrain from voting this year.

No, please! You're entitled to vote, so vote - even if you vote for Cn.
Tarquinius. Too few cives voted for anybody last year.

> But if you, who have greater
>experience than I, answer this question in the affirmative, then the
>Tribunes have been doing their job. If you answer in the negative, then
>they have not.

Your argument is a bit awry here, I think. The Tribunes are not the sole
architects and guardians of macronational stability and prosperity. All the
other magistrates, their officers, the priests and pontiffs, and the sodales
executives, have all done a great deal to build up the respublica in the
past year - including all those who have been so venomously and unfairly
attacked by the man you are defending. Many, of course, have done so away
from the public view - but the office of Tribune calls for a very high
public profile. Tarquinius' was so low, you couldn't see it. If the plebs
don't hear from one of their Tribunes for months, how and why are they
supposed to be grateful to him?

>Just take that into consideration before casting your vote, or judging
>someone for being "quiet".

Well, mi Hiberni, as a general principle I believe that is very sound. But I
hardly think you could say that Cn. Tarquinius' histrionic denunciations of
the other day are what anyone could call "quiet".

I admire your spirit, though, Tiberi Hiberni. I confess that when I've seen
one man down on the deck, getting a beating from several others, I have
often tended to wade in without first asking whether he might have deserved
it. But I wouldn't call that 'Celtic' - I'd call it decent, if foolhardy.
:-)

In amicitia,

Vado.









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Subject:	[novaroma] Quaestor Candidacy
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 13:55:43 -0500 (EST)

Salvete, Citizens of Nova Roma;

I stand before you in the robes of a Candidate for the Office of
Quaestor. I also stand before you greatly relieved that a fellow
Candidate has finally specified that I am not the target of his anger,
frustration, and his attempt to keep me out of political activity," for
a good long time."

That statement without it's precise meaning has caused me some extreme
concern, because I could not imagine what steps I had taken to elicit
such feelings, outside perhaps his disagreement with some of my
decisions as Consul. As we all know, disagreement is certainly not, or
should not be a cause for the attempted and declared hounding of another
from office and from the privelage of serving his or her nation.

So as I say, I am quite relieved to be absolved of that particular view
directed at my current office. I suppose that I shall get over the
injury of such a declaration, but then hurting another by unthinking
statements has ever been a caution upon this net, and I wonder at the
forgetfulness of this gentleman.

As I say, I stand before you for your examination as to my fitness for
the office that I seek. I have served you before in this requested
position and I seek such again, because I believe that my abilities can
be of assistance in the continuing job of building Nova Roma. I have
the honor to have served in the Senate for nearly 18 months, and so have
some idea of the way in which that August Body approaches thier
business. I will have, with the completion of my service as Junior
Consul, completed the Cursus Honorium. Although I know that particular
accomplishment has neither signifigance or honor attached in the view of
some, I am proud of the accomplishment, because for me it signals my
willingness to do the best for the people of Nova Roma, and to me,
regardless of my detractor's views, they are those whom I serve, because
they are those who will or will not place me again in the Magistrate's
Chair.

Previously when I served as Quaestor, I wrote the original Budget for
Nova Roma, and participated with my Colleague Senator Cassia in
verifying the Quarterly Financial Reports of the Micronation. I was
asked to serve as Consular Advisor to both Senators Cinncinatus and
Palladius when they were Consuls. During my time as Quaestor, I
instituted a promise to notify, request and provide a response to any
Magistate for any citizen who asked for the service and have maintained
that promise through my Consulship. I am currently involved in making
up the Budget for next year, again with the aid of my Colleague Senator
Cassia, and will probably be involved with rewriting the Lex for
reimbursement of expended funds to Magistrates, should that be necessary
in the coming year, and if re-elected.

I have also been approached to assist in the development of a Civil Code
of Laws for NR which during my Consulship I had encouraged. Praetor
Graecus has modified the original Civil Code Proposal first introduced
by Senator Magister, and which, should you find me worthy to do, I would
be very interested in working with next year's Praetor Urbanii toward
that goal.

During my Quaestorship, I also attempted to interest others who do not
have English as a first language in involving themselves closer with
Nova Roma. I had the distinct honor of having corresponded at length
with the now Senator Alexander Macedonius and recommending him to the
Consuls, whom I served, as a suitable Candidate for Praetor of Pannonia
which was finally granted. Though I claim no part in that decision, as
it was not mine to make at that time, I did make the recommendation to
several senior magistrates with the final result, as you see.

I have been, since first entering the Cursus Honorium, a supporter of
some sort of income for the micronation. I have been opposed in the
past by some very honorable figures in our micronation, who have in many
cases, one by one, come around to my view that in order for Nova Roma to
meet her pledged goals to her citizens, funding must be available both
for the increasing expenses that the nation faces, and for the goals
that she has set forth in her constitution. I believe that most of our
Magistrates have finally determined that profits from the Macellum and
citizen donations will not be sufficient for this funding requirement.
However, I assure you that I understand fully the problems in the
following considerations:

--Transfer of monies between countries;

--Difference in available surplus funds in different parts of the world;

--Need for Provincial, as well as for Micronational Funding.

And these and other challenges that face the micronation, I wish to work
with the Magistates of the next year to smooth out and streamlne.

I am not now and never have been a financial expert, although as a Naval
Officer for seven years I had the honor and responsibility of managing
an Annual Budget of $100,000 for the management of a Torpedo Repair,
Issue, and Stowage Facility on board a Submarine Depot Ship. This
facility included four weapons elevators, three torpedo shops, 23 work
and stowage compartments, and 50 to 55 petty-officers and men. In
additions I also had the partial responsibilities for small arms
training, a shore based torpedo repair facilty, selected ammunition
bunkers, four stationary cranes and one mobile crane. I list these iems
to indicate the extent of the budget coverage.

As a civilian Program Manager for Liaison Action Reports (LARs--Trident
Submarine Change Authorizations) I was responsible for a budget of
$20,000 annually for 6 years, with no personnel or equipment
responsibilities, but rather as a Manager of Reports, Engineering
investigations, and Responses for Authorization. My travel allowance
extended from the East Coast to the West Coast, with trips averaging
about 7-10 times annually. Computer Files and Hard Files including
detailed and specific blueprint drawings were specifically required.

Finally, when I was a Quaestor, formerly, I also formed the Sodalitas
For Roman Military Engineering and Cartography. This Sodalitas has
since been modified into the Sodalitas Militarium at the request of
several Magistrates including the Honorable ProConsul Marcus Julianus.
I also recieved from the Consul during that period, the Military Honor
of Tribunus Militum Laticlavius for my efforts and my involvement in
Roman Period Engieering and Cartography. Two years ago, I attended the
Roman Days in Maryland, narrated the activities of the Legions on the
field to spectators, and formulated and presented a set of maps
personnaly drawn and / or annotated in color and black and white, both
on paper and papyrus stock for the benefit of the event. Also at that
event I acted in my elected position as Quaestor to take part in a face
to-face meeting to assist in laying out the basis of NR's application
for non-profit status.

With this list of my past activities and future views and intentions, I
leave my request for your support in the coming election in your very
capable hands. I am open to any questions that you wish to ask, which I
am free to answer as a Nova Roman Senator.

Valete, Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens
Candidate For Quaestor

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Endorsement of Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus
From:	BICURRATUS@--------
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 13:59:27 EST

EX DOMO PUBLII CLAUDII LUCENTII SEVERI BICURRATI

> Whereas M. Marcius Rex is in Germania and if a phone call is
> needed it would be very expensive for either of us, Lucius Equitius is
> across
> the country. Also, the language barrier might be an issue as well, I dont
> know
> but it is very possible.
>
> In considering the position of Censor, which IS the busiest position in Nova
> Roma, dont you think it would be essential that there would be a good
> working
> relationship without any possible impediment which would jeopardize the
> productivity of the office?
>

You are confirming everything I said. Unless the other Censor is based in the
USA and speaks English you don't consider them appropriate for the office
with you as the other Censor. A big impediment I can see is that you are
intimating that you are not prepared to try and develop a working
relationship with someone other than your choosing.

Publius Claudius Lucentius Severus Bicurratus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Subject:	[novaroma] To all the Candidates
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 14:01:02 -0500

Salvete;

I just wanted to take a minute away from my own campaigning to publically
thank everyone who has donned the white toga and decided to run for the
honor of serving our Republic. No matter where we may stand on various
issues, I really do appreciate everyone's effort to help Nova Roma grow. A
lack of qualified candidates in key positions has been one of our long-term
problems, and I am gratified to see that we seem to have matured beyond this
problem.

I salute you all.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Milestone reached
From:	Piparskegg UllRsson <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Sat, 02 Dec 2000 13:13:17 -0600

Ave Sulla, Amicus mea,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla wrote:

> Ave!
>
> Today, I have just approved citizen number 600!!!! :)
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Censor

A big Viking -HAIL!- to that.

It's good to see the New City growing, despite the usual election time verbiage.

Welcome to the new Cives. If you're interested in the food, drink and dining of Rome
(plus the cultures with which She came into contact) join the Sodalis list (in sig block below).

Please, remember to vote, let's do better than the way the US election went.

Venator for Quæstor!

==========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis, Benedicte Omnes!
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Coves, Paterfamilias Gens Ulleria
Quæstor, Dominus Sodalis
My homestead
http://www.geocities.com/piparskegg/index.html
Nova Roma website
http://www.novaroma.org/main.html
Sodalis pro Coqueror et Coquus
http://www.egroups.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] To L Sergius (was Question for candidates...)
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 02 Dec 2000 13:54:03 -0600

T Labienus L Sergio S P D

I meant to respond to this earlier, but it wound up at the bottom of the
150 or so messages I have received between the time of its arrival and
now.

> Gnaeus Tarquinius and I had planned to convoke the CPT early in the
> year. We were awaiting word of favorable auspices and a legal day on
> which to convene a meeting. You will find that these requirements can
> cause really annoying delays in starting anything.

I can imagine so, and I was naturally unaware of any efforts you made in
this regard. In retrospect, I should not have baldly stated that I
faulted you for inactivity. Instead, I should more rightly have said
that I shall endeavour to be a more active tribunus plebis than I have
perceived you to be. That is closer to my intended meaning. That's
what I get for taking verbal short-cuts, and I apologize for any
apparent slight to you, along with any upset that such a slight may have
caused.

> Hopefully that will be fixed before the end of the year!

Absolutely! I am relieved to see that some of our cives have decided to
stand for the post.

> You make me want to vote for you, Labienus, just to see if it is all
> as easy for you as you may think it will be. :-)

LOL A wiser man than I once said that the worst punishment you can
inflict upon someone is to give him what he wants.

Vale

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Endorsement of L. Equitius Cincinnatus
From:	"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 19:50:22 -0000

Quiritibus salutem

Respondit Sulla Bicurratum (Sulla replied to Bicurratus):

>Lucius Equitius
>is already my established Nomenclator. Him and I have had an ongoing
working
>relationship for the past year. Whereas I have only spoken to M. Marcius
Rex
>only once EVER.

Except, of course, for a recent exchange in the Senate on - what shall we
call it? - certain exigencies of the Censor's office, followed by an IM
exchange, followed by another exchange in the Senate.

>Whereas M. Marcius Rex is in Germania and if a phone call is
>needed it would be very expensive for either of us, Lucius Equitius is
across
>the country. Also, the language barrier might be an issue as well, I dont
know
>but it is very possible.

Since M. Marcius' elevation to the Senate and his posts to this and other NR
e-lists, it will have become evident to most citizens that Marcus Marcius
Rex has a better command of English than some native English speakers (I
don't want to embarrass anybody).

>In considering the position of Censor, which IS the busiest position in
Nova
>Roma, dont you think it would be essential that there would be a good
working
>relationship without any possible impediment which would jeopardize the
>productivity of the office?

Personally, I quite agree. But I cannot see how a dual magistracy requires
both its office holders to be citizens of the same macronation, which seems
to me to be what Censor Sulla is suggesting to us voters. But if he thinks
that two Censors living in two different countries IS a serious impediment,
I commend Germania highly as a nice place to live. (:-D

Bene valete!

Vado.


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Subject:	[Fwd: Re: [novaroma] RE: Question for Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar]
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 02 Dec 2000 14:09:34 -0600

Well, I finally fell afoul of the list settings. LOL

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] RE: Question for Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 07:55:36 -0600
From: Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
To: caesar@--------
References: <909etl+58ap@-------->

T Labienus Gnaeo Tarquinio Quiritibusque S P D

> Do not let our Republic fall to rank villians such as the "Amici
> Dignitas".

I should like to point out that political speech does not necessarily
have to degrade to the level of propaganda. It is not necessary to use
canards like Athenian democracy, overblown prophecies of doom like "Do
not let our Republic fall...," or unfounded and baseless attacks like
the one above. If you have a difference of opinion, then by all means
air your differences, but please refrain from referring to conscientious
and honorable people as "rank villains." It does nothing to aid your
cause and it most certainly does not serve Concordia--which service is
the very thing you claim to be the one accomplishment of your stint as a
tribunus plebis.

Valete

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Endorsement of Patricia Cassia for Quaestor
From:	"J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@-------->
Date:	Sat, 02 Dec 2000 16:43:55 -0500

Avete omnes!

Veronica Moeller wrote:

> Ave,
>
> I wish to endorse the candidacy, for Quaestor, of Patricia Cassia.

I second the endorsement! Patricia Cassia really *cares* for NovaRoma, and
has put incredible energy into seeing it grow. She is noble, courteous,
kind to Romano-hyphenateds, educated, and fair to all. P. Cassia would make
an *excellent* Quaestor! The auguries are kind to her; I have seen no ill
omens to stand in her way.

S. Ambrosia Fulvia


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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: AIA LIST DIGEST Fellowships and Grants 00-01-f-156
From:	"J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@-------->
Date:	Sat, 02 Dec 2000 16:46:14 -0500

Salvete omnes!
Is this something that any of our learned cives might be interested in? I
picked it off the Archaeological Institute of America bulletin board. The
position *pays*, too!
S. Ambrosia Fulvia

Nick Eiteljorg wrote:

> AIA LIST DIGEST Fellowships and Grants 00-01-f-156
>
> Date: Friday, December 01, 2000
> Messages included: 1
> Subjects: #1: anenews Fellowship: Ancient Medicine - Emory U. (36 lines)
>
> Unless marked as originating from the AIA, messages neither represent
> Institute pronouncements nor imply Institute support or endorsement.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 16:01:35 -0600
> From: "Charles E. Jones" <cejo@-------->
> Subject: #1: anenews Fellowship: Ancient Medicine - Emory U. (36 lines)
>
> Emory University - Atlanta, GA
> Andrew W. Mellon Faculty Fellowship in the Humanities: The Department of
> Classics in Emory College of Arts and Sciences has been authorized to
> recruit a Mellon Postdoctoral Fellow for the academic years 2001-2003, with
> special emphasis on the study of ancient medicine/science. This is a
> non-tenure-track postdoctoral fellowship (an initial one-year appointment
> and renewable for a second year), awarded to a scholar capable of
> initiating an imaginative program of teaching and developing her/his own
> research. Fellows must have the doctorate in hand at the time of taking up
> the appointment.
>
> The Fellow will participate in the regular offerings of the classics
> department, and also develop and teach courses related to the study of
> ancient medicine, either within the department or jointly with other units
> (e.g., philosophy,
> anthropology, women's studies, history, religion, public health, medicine).
> Fellows teach one course per semester. Stipend is $36,000 per annum, plus
> $500 for relocation costs and a research allowance of $1,000 per annum.
>
> Applications must include the following materials: a) letter of application
> laying out interests and qualifications, and a 500-word statement of
> proposed research; b) curriculum vitae; c) brief description of two courses
> you would like to teach during your tenure as a Mellon Fellow; d) at least
> two letters of academic recommendation. Send materials to:
>
> Professor David F. Bright, Chair, Department of Classics, N404 Callaway
> Center, Emory University, Atlanta, GA
> 30322.
>
> In order to be ensured full consideration, dossiers must be received by 12
> December, 2000. Although we are not using the APA Placement service for
> this search, members of the department will be in San Diego and may make
> arrangements to meet with candidates there. We will not be conducting
> on-campus interviews.
>
> Emory is an Equal Opportunity / Affirmative Action employer.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of AIA LIST DIGEST Fellowships and Grants 00-01-f-156
> ***********************************


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Subject:	[novaroma] Against Class Warfare
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 17:02:33 -0500

Salvete Omnes;

There seems to be a shared opinion among some individuals that one group of
Citizens within Nova Roma is somehow conspiring to oppress or otherwise keep
down another group. To some, this has been expressed as the Popularii being
oppressed by the Optimates, or the Patricians oppressing the Plebeians.

While the tension between Plebeians and Patricians was indeed an historical
component of Roman society, it is one of those few elements of the Republic
that we seek to leave in the past. In modern Nova Roman society, the
distinction between Patrician and Plebeian is more cosmetic than anything
else; in place because it is necessary in order for certain offices and
institutions to have any meaning (such as the Tribunis Plebis and the
Comitia Plebis Tributa).

Indeed, if anything, members of the Plebeian order have more rights than
Patricians, who cannot serve as Tribunis Plebis or participate in the
Comitia Plebis Tributa. And of course our other governmental institutions,
such as the Consulship and the Senate, are open to both Patricians and
Plebeians.

A quick look at the Frequently Asked Questions on our main web site sheds
more light upon this division:

"Q: So what's the difference between patrician and plebeian?

"A: Functionally, almost nothing at all. In fact, there are a few
magistracies (such as the Tribune Plebis) that can only be occupied by
Citizens of the plebeian class. Patrician status was really included as a
way to honor those families which came on-board at a very early stage of
Nova Roma and were therefore instrumental in our early history."

So why, then, do some insist on pitting one group against another? Why do
some seek to magnify (and indeed reverse) the differences between the
Orders? Why do some claim oppression where none really exists?

Honestly, because some see political advantage in pitting one group against
another.

It is a common enough tactic in politics; set onesself up as the noble
defender of an oppressed group, and ride the wave of support that follows.
It matters little that no real oppression exists; it is enough to _claim_
that it does and rail against it.

We must rise above these false divisions. We must come together, Patrician
and Plebeian, Omptimate and Populare, because in the real world, we are all
Citizens. We must not allow ourselves to be set upon ourselves. We must
always remember that we are all Citizens, and realize that our system does
indeed offer equal opportunity to all, there is no class of privilege, and
those who insist on pitting one group against another are being disingenuous
at best.

We must see ourselves, not as Plebeians or Patricians, but as Nova Romans.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul

http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] To all the Candidates
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 23:06:34 +0100

Salvete omnes!

>
> I just wanted to take a minute away from my own campaigning to publically
> thank everyone who has donned the white toga and decided to run for the
> honor of serving our Republic. No matter where we may stand on various
> issues, I really do appreciate everyone's effort to help Nova Roma grow. A
> lack of qualified candidates in key positions has been one of our
long-term
> problems, and I am gratified to see that we seem to have matured beyond
this
> problem.
>
> I salute you all.
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus

I would like to add to this that a complete list of candidates for all
offices is obtainable at the Dignitas Forum files folder - or you can get
the list by e-mailing me privately. If I have left anyone out of my list,
please tell me so as quickly as possible!

Valete bene!
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Aedilis Plebis petitor,
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question for Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 23:15:43 +0100

Salve, mea Draconia,

> Aeternia:: Avete Omnes, Forgive me Draco et all, this may sound rude and >
terse.
> These are good questions you are asking Draco, yet I will have to disagree
to
> a point. Sometimes things happen in our own lives outside Nova Roma that
> make us invisible at times. Surely you can understand that can't you?
Forgive
> me again if my response sounds rude and out of line but this shook me.

I'm not offended. I can take more than just a disagreement with my words,
really ;-). As I admitted to Tarquinius, sometimes there are unforseen
circumstances that force you to be less active here in our beloved
Respublica. But as I also said before: can it be guaranteed that it will be
different this time? And, during the little time he had available here, what
did actually happen? Nova Roma has advanced, but as things look for me right
now, this wasn't due to his efforts (unless I am completely ignorant of
them).

Vale bene!
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
<< PETITOR AEDILIS PLEBIS >>
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question for Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar
From:	SyanneRose@--------
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 17:26:28 EST

Ave,

I still feel what I posted was yucky and completely filled with bad taste.
Again I'll apologize, just reading all of the main list mail. I understand a
bit more, and the post was even more unneccessary. Good luck to all
the canidates in this election and best wishes sent, I'm putting away the
soapbox I stole from Drusus Cornelius, and keeping my peace.

Valete
Aeternia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Cursus Honorum
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 17:32:04 EST

Salve M. Apollonius Formosanus

On 12/2/00 9:52 AM M. Apollonius Formosanus (bvm3@--------) wrote:

[snip]
>
> Sulla may think he has scored a point against me by pointing out my
>"inconsistency". His demonstrated psychology of obstinately sticking
>to his right to impose his will on a private citizen and stonewalling
>at any attempt to get this corrected from outside would seem to show
>that he associates this with some virtue.
>
What are we to make, Formosanus, of your obstinate determination to
impose your own private will on the republic and its magistrates and
citizens by continually hacking away at the same old topic with the same
tired rhetoric after everyone else on both sides of the matter has
finished with it and moved on? Can you never accept a decision that goes
against your own wishes? Have you no concern for anything except whether
you get your own way?

You are an eloquent and learned man, Formosanus, and you have much to
offer here. But, mea sententia, the way you operate - wearing everyone
down by endlessly droning on about old issues, gathering a political
faction and pretending it is "nonpartisan," and declaring your intent to
so radically alter the state as to destroy its essential nature and then
offering yourself innocently as a candidate for office in that targeted
state - is very disturbing and smacks of the worst kind of demagoguery.

Do you know what memories your behavior has brought to my mind?....

"FORMOSANUS IST NOVA ROMA, UND NOVA ROMA FORMOSANUS IST!"

That's really what your behavior is telling us, isn't it? Only you have
The Truth about what this republic should be, and the rest of us are
going to have to accept it eventually.


Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
Candidate for Tribunus Plebis


certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Piscinus and the Roman Republic
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 17:32:02 EST

Salve Apollonius

I do not agree that the faction you call the "Amici" is being demonized.
I think what is happening is that this group, by virtue of having chosen
to be members of the "Amici," is being tarred with the brush of your
paterfamilias' rather radical posted manifesto for the group. This is an
occupational hazard of those who choose to run in packs - any member of
the pack is liable to be shot as a wolf because of actions by other
members.

If, as you have argued, the "Amici" are not a faction but just a group of
concerned civies who chose to go off and talk among themselves rather
than in the Forum, then I suggest they would do well for themselves as
individuals and for the good name of this group/faction/wolf
pack/whatever to now openly declare, before the citizens in this Forum,
how each of them stands with respect to the Manifesto of Apollonius
Formosanus. Titus Labienus Fortunatus has already done so, and I respect
him the more for that.

This is a time when some of the members of this group/faction/wolf
pack/whatever are standing for important offices in our government. Those
candidates who, having aligned themselves with him by joining the
"Amici," will not declare whether they do or do not follow Formosanus'
revolutionary Manifesto, will only leave the citizens of Nova Roma uneasy
and distrustful of why they will not say publically where they stand.

Vale,

Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
Candidate for Praetor

On 12/2/00 9:41 AM hendrik.meuleman@-------- (hendrik.meuleman@--------) wrote:

>
>As much as I regret this, bitter discussion is sometimes inevitable.
>However, as I said before, the Amici are being demonized. Although
>the link between the AD and the ancient Populares can be easily made,
>I think you should see that this AD flows forth from another group of
>people who work together here in Nova Roma. Is a group agreement in
>Nova Roma (without being a party) that is not a faction forbidden?
>Did I ever insist on a division of Nova Roma into "populares"
>and "optimates"? I merely want to point out that there
>are "populares" because until now all we seem to have seen
>are "optimates". Nevertheless, polarizing is unhealthy business!
>People are free to have and express any opinion they want. If an
>Amicus doesn't agree with one individual, this *does not* mean all
>Amici feel the same way, as much as your opinion is also that of an
>individual, so is Livia's, and so is mine.
>
>Vale bene!
>Sextus Apollonius Draco,
>Candidate for Aedilis Plebis
>


certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Against Class Warfare
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 17:52:52 -0500

Salve Draco;

Thanks for your thoughtful comments; they are most appreciated.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: S. Apollonius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 5:21 PM
>
> I do have one slight comment; I may be mistaken,
> but isn't it so that Patricians have more century points? Also, the office
> of Aedilis Curulis is traditionally a patrician office, is it not? So I
> don't think that Plebeians have that many more rights over Patricians.
They
> balance each other, I daresay.

Actually, the position of Curule Aedile did start off as an exclusively
Patrician office in Roma Antiqua, but Plebeians were admitted to its ranks
eventually. In our system, members of any order may hold the office.

You are correct when you say that Patricians get more Century points, and I
probably should have mentioned it. But five extra points is hardly a
significant number, when after even a minimal career in public service an
individual can expect to have many times that. Still, you're right; it is
something, and deserves mention. (Also, in the interests of full disclosure,
I had forgotten that the position of Interrex can only be held by a
Patrician according to our Constitution, but hopefully we'll never even need
one!)

Still, the original point remains; such differences are minimal, and
shouldn't be used as a cause for division between our Citizens.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul

http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Endorsement of L. Equitius Cincinnatus
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 02 Dec 2000 14:57:42 -0800

Nick Ford wrote:

> Quiritibus salutem
>
> Respondit Sulla Bicurratum (Sulla replied to Bicurratus):
>
> >Lucius Equitius
> >is already my established Nomenclator. Him and I have had an ongoing
> working
> >relationship for the past year. Whereas I have only spoken to M. Marcius
> Rex
> >only once EVER.
>
> Except, of course, for a recent exchange in the Senate on - what shall we
> call it? - certain exigencies of the Censor's office, followed by an IM
> exchange, followed by another exchange in the Senate.
>
>

Sulla: Actually your right. Since he was admitted into the Senate about 2
weeks ago he has been in the Senate. But what about the previous year he has
been in NR. I have only seen about 5 posts? How active is that....compared to
Lucius Equitius? Who has posted regularly throughout Nova Roma's entire
existence! :)

> >Whereas M. Marcius Rex is in Germania and if a phone call is
> >needed it would be very expensive for either of us, Lucius Equitius is
> across
> >the country. Also, the language barrier might be an issue as well, I dont
> know
> >but it is very possible.
>
> Since M. Marcius' elevation to the Senate and his posts to this and other NR
> e-lists, it will have become evident to most citizens that Marcus Marcius
> Rex has a better command of English than some native English speakers (I
> don't want to embarrass anybody).
>

Sulla: I am not referring to emails in that manner. I am speaking of phone
conversations. There have been times when C. Marius Merullus and I had to speak
on the phone. Our average phone conversation has been about 4 hours! I am
worried of the language barrier on voice to voice communication. Which is and
can be a very important factor in the Censorship position.

>
> >In considering the position of Censor, which IS the busiest position in
> Nova
> >Roma, dont you think it would be essential that there would be a good
> working
> >relationship without any possible impediment which would jeopardize the
> >productivity of the office?
>
> Personally, I quite agree. But I cannot see how a dual magistracy requires
> both its office holders to be citizens of the same macronation, which seems
> to me to be what Censor Sulla is suggesting to us voters. But if he thinks
> that two Censors living in two different countries IS a serious impediment,
> I commend Germania highly as a nice place to live. (:-D

You pay me to relocate to Germania, and I will be happy to move there! :) That
sounds perfectly reasonable to me. ;)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Up the Celtae
From:	"Tiberius Hibernius Gladius Mortifer" <tiberius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Dec 2000 18:43:40 -0500

Thank you for your kind words :)

as I said, I have not been here long enough to really anything about this
man, his history, or the situation in question. I just wanted to play
Devil's advocate and raise a few things to think about :)


-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Ford <gens_moravia@-------->
To: novaroma@-------- <novaroma@-------->
Date: Saturday, December 02, 2000 1:48 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Up the Celtae


>Salve Tiberi Hiberni
>
>Scripsisti:
>>I don't speak here often, mostly when something just gets my attention or
>>gets my Irish up ( indeed, I am a Roman, but a Celt as well). Although I
am
>>mostly quiet that does not mean I am asleep.
>
>I'm a Roman "Celt", too. Though I don't much care for ethnic stereotyping
(a
>lot of nonsense was invented by the English from the 16thC. to our own,
>about the so-called "Celtic Temperament", to justify the fact that the
>sober, solid, level-headed "Anglo-Saxon" English took it upon themselves
>to rule them (for their own good, of course):
>
>"Oh, the Celts - more courage than sense. Too emotional, you see. And
highly
>superstitious. Creative, but childlike. They make excellent musicians and
>boxers, but they really can't be trusted with government..." Sounds very
>familiar, doesn't it?
>
>Pseudo-ethnology apart, I think most of us (Roman citizens, whether
Italian,
>German, Gaul, Greek, African etc.) would rather get drunk and sing than get
>angry and fight. But
>if someone starts a fight in a public place, as Tarquinius did with his
>outrageous insults, broadcast at several candidates without naming them, a
>bit of ridicule is about the mildest response he can reasonably expect. If
>someone walked into an bar they had hardly ever shown their face in, and
>then screamed abuse at several people at once, calling them
child-corrupting
>terrorists who weren't proper men - what do you think would happen?
>
>>A few have suggested that Gnaeus Tarquinius has been "asleep" for the past
>>year because he does not speak often on this list. In light of that, I
ask
>>you... is the best and most effective leader the one who is most visible?
>>Or the one who promotes stability and prosperity with little personal
>>fanfare?
>
>Your objection is good and reasonable - except insofar as it relates to Cn.
>Tarquinius.
>It is not so much his silence on this list that is in question (though
would
>you really expect a Tribune of the Plebs, your representative to the
Senate,
>not to post here?), so much as his utter neglect of his duties as Tribune,
>saving only one occasion when he was persuaded to
>negate the veto of his colleague and thereby compromise the sacred
integrity
>of his office by nullifying the Tribunate entirely - a state of affairs
>unheard of in ancient Rome.
>
>Accusing the man (note that I use the word without Tarquinius' offensive
>inverted commas) of sleeping on the job is giving him the benefit of doubt,
>in my opinion. After months of inactivity and absence from anywhere in NR
>that I know of, he appeared in this forum, broadcasting hysterical
>allegations, telling the cives they'd never had it so good, but that they
>never would again if they voted for the people he'd insulted and accused
but
>wouldn't name, and then insisting that some of the credit of our
>micronational peace and political stability was due to him. So we should
all
>vote for him again. Do you really think this is reasonable behaviour?
>
>>As yourselves this question... has the past year been stable and
prosperous
>>or not?
>
>I have done so. The answer is, of course, yes. But please ask yourself this
>question in turn, mi Hiberni: Would we not have progressed further in
>developing our laws, our judicial system, our fiscal procedures, if there
>had been more Tribunician activity? Admittedly we needed two Rogatores to
>make the Comitia work, and rarely had them, but was there any Tribunician
>activity from Tarquinius, urging the cives to volunteer so he could do his
>job better? I thought I'd better ask him, because I didn't notice him doing
>anything.
>
>> I have not been here long enough to answer that question for
>>myself, which I refrain from voting this year.
>
>No, please! You're entitled to vote, so vote - even if you vote for Cn.
>Tarquinius. Too few cives voted for anybody last year.
>
>> But if you, who have greater
>>experience than I, answer this question in the affirmative, then the
>>Tribunes have been doing their job. If you answer in the negative, then
>>they have not.
>
>Your argument is a bit awry here, I think. The Tribunes are not the sole
>architects and guardians of macronational stability and prosperity. All the
>other magistrates, their officers, the priests and pontiffs, and the
sodales
>executives, have all done a great deal to build up the respublica in the
>past year - including all those who have been so venomously and unfairly
>attacked by the man you are defending. Many, of course, have done so away
>from the public view - but the office of Tribune calls for a very high
>public profile. Tarquinius' was so low, you couldn't see it. If the plebs
>don't hear from one of their Tribunes for months, how and why are they
>supposed to be grateful to him?
>
>>Just take that into consideration before casting your vote, or judging
>>someone for being "quiet".
>
>Well, mi Hiberni, as a general principle I believe that is very sound. But
I
>hardly think you could say that Cn. Tarquinius' histrionic denunciations of
>the other day are what anyone could call "quiet".
>
>I admire your spirit, though, Tiberi Hiberni. I confess that when I've seen
>one man down on the deck, getting a beating from several others, I have
>often tended to wade in without first asking whether he might have deserved
>it. But I wouldn't call that 'Celtic' - I'd call it decent, if foolhardy.
>:-)
>
>In amicitia,
>
>Vado.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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