Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Accolades for Marcus Minucius Audens
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Tue, 05 Dec 2000 00:35:47 -0000

Salvete Omnii!

I post in praise of a Magistrate for whom I have worked for nearly a year.

Marcus Minucius Audens, for the benefit of those fairly new to Nova Roma, is
the Junior Consul of our Republic.

Audens' initiatives speak for themselves: founder of Sodalitates Egressus
and Militarium, his tireless efforts in Consular and Senate business. The
well-known adage.... if you want something done, just ask the busy man :)

I believe that if I had any reason to question this Consul's virtue or
ethics in the politics of Nova Roma, the opportunity would have presented
itself by now.
.....and I have communicated with him innumerable times, mostly through
email, but a few times on the telephone.

I weightedly support his bid for the office of Quaestor. Indeed, Nova Roma
would suffer from the absence of such a learned and virtuous man in some
magisterial capacity.

One of the things I have valued about working for Audens as his Scriba is
his honesty.....if he tells me his is happy with a project.....he truly is
"happy".....if he has a problem with it, well, he'll tell me that too,
giving his rationale based on experience and suggesting alternatives. He is
kind, but refreshingly candid.
He has dealt with all his staff that way, from what I have seen. Except in a
few instances where I have not heard from him, I always know where I stand,
and I appreciate that.

I will not be Scriba Consula next year, but I shall continue to have the
privilege of working with Audens on Sodalitates endeavors.

Marce Minuce, I thank you for a wonderful year; it has been a learning
experience for me, and an enjoyable one at that. It is a privilege to know
you. And you have my continued support.....:)

Fides et Amicitia,
Scriba Pompeia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM chat
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Dec 2000 18:05:38 -0700

OK, I'll break my silence on just this matter.

Cassius and Germanicus raise a very good point. In my neck
of the woods, if I leave work at 5 p.m., I'm stuck in heavy
commuter traffic and it takes me until 6 p.m. to get home.

On the other hand, for those candidates in central Europe,
this was already scheduled to go from 10-12 pm their time.

Is there any way to shift the time frame one hour later?
say, 11 pm to 1 am Roman time? Either that, or extend it to
1 am Roman time??

That way, maybe everybody could get a word in.

Not that I expect I'll be there, just looking for middle
ground.

Livia Cornelia Aurelia

cassius622@-------- wrote:

> Salvete,
>
> Technically, you're quite correct. However, the chances of
> my
> actually getting home before 5:20 or even 5:30 are fairly
> slim. I'll
> surely try to get in at the very tail end of the debate as
> it's
> possible for me to do so.
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
> Candidate for Consul
>
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, marcusaemiliusscaurus@h...
> wrote:
> > Salve Vedius Germanicus and Cassius Julianus,
> >
> > but the chat finishes at 6:00 your time, so it finishes
> an hour
> after
> > you finish!
> >
> > Valete,
> > Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
>
>
> eGroups Sponsor
[Click Here!]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] The Amici Dignitatis Statement
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Mon, 4 Dec 2000 16:06:14 +0100

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quirites!

Piscinus scripsit:
"You have properly asked that all members of the Amici Dignitas
publicly state their positions on "Formosanus' revolutionary
Manifesto." Do I support Formosanus' statement? No. Does
Formosanus' statement represent the Amici Dignitatis? No, absolutely
not. The Amici have argued against the Formosanus statement."

Respondeo:

The Statement of the Amici Dignitatis was not written by me, but by
Piscinus himself. Amici Dignitatis are all expected to sign it, as
that is how we know who they are.

The Dignitas Forum *List* is a *neutral* forum, and there are people
there such as Sulla who are, to the best of my knowledge, are not
Amici, as they have not signed the Statement. (I would welcome their
signing.)

I have made myself nothing resembling a "manifesto" except my first
Position Paper, and it is certainly a moderate document, albeit one
calling for some necessary reform and development. I shall be making
further Position Papers available, reflecting my opinions on my
duties as Praetor (if elected) and my general values and suggestions
for the future of our Respublica. Please look to them, good citizens,
and not to isolated and misinterpreted fragments ripped out of
context by those who seem to wish me personally and all serious
reform generally ill.

Valete!

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus << CANDIDATVS PRAETORIVS >>
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________

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Subject:	[novaroma] Postition Paper 2: Towards a Nova Roman Judiciary System
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 01:27:23 +0100

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Here is my second Position Paper, dedicated to the creation of a
complete and adequate judiciary system for Nova Roma. I urge all
voters wishing to understand what I stand for in Nova Roman politics
to read these papers. It is these papers that represent my true
"manifesto", not random comments made elsewhere.

I wish to repeat that not all of these things are things I could do
alone as a Praetor, even with a suitable colleague, but they are
changes that a Praetor, being concerned with all things legal and
judicary by virtue of his office, can collaborate on with others so
that they might be brought about.

I am impressed with the good treatment of this whole sphere in the
post by M. Iunius Cassius on the matter. I here am dividing my
treatment into this paper on the court system and a future one on the
basic laws we need to protect civil rights.

The scandalous treatment of one citizen in the past year served as a
wake-up call not just to the Amici Dignitatis, but to many other
fair-minded people in Nova Roma. There is a wide-spread feeling that
we must have a judicial system to deal with crime, torts and
punishment in a manner non-political, neutral, consistent, and
rule-guided.

Below I have tried to sketch some directions that we might move in
creating such a system. I have drawn on traditional Roman precedents
while keeping in mind that we are a 21st Century micronation. I would
like to emphasise that over the history of the Republic there are
different models to choose from. I have tried to choose models
appropriate to our present size and to our means of communicatios
among ourselves on the internet.

The first type of court we need is one for criminal matters. If we
consider some things such as stalking, malfeasance in office,
embezzlement, misappropriation of funds, discriminatory treatment of
citizens, and malicious destruction of NR websites to be real crimes,
then we must be prepared with suitable courts to deal with them
appropriately.

The Senate is not that court. That is neither historically in
Republican times nor under the present Constitution a judicial body.
It has, unfortunately, on two occasions issued "reprimands", which
are essentially the same as bills of attainder, something
specifically prohibited in the U.S. Constitution, such a bad
reputation had such things already acquired long ago. The Senate is
not judicial but political in nature.

The Praetors are the principal judicial officers of our Respublica.
(Note that in antiquity Consuls shared these functions in criminal
law.) But what are they to do if a case is brought before them, and
indeed who should have the right to do that?

Initiation of prosecution in the Roman Republic was normally left to
individuals. Following this precedent, we might allow any citizen
(with the exception of the praetors themselves) to call anyone into
court on a criminal charge. This would ensure that the whole body of
citizens would be constant watchdogs for the leges of the Respublica.
But each Praetor would be allowed to judge whether or not there were
sufficient grounds to warrant a trial.

If a trial were approved by either Praetor, we might permit him or
her to investigate and pass sentence alone according to suitable
rules to ensure fairness if the matter were not serious. Or if the
crime were of extraordinary gravity - I should say if it involved the
possibility of exile (our equivalent of a capital crime), or if it
touched a magistrate or senator in his or her official capacity, or
if the defendent requested it -, we should send it directly and
automatically to the People. (Traditionally the Praetor himself would
not handle this in person if provocatio were to be involved. Since
our Praetors need more work and we are a small commuunity so far, I
would suggest not using other officials for this job to avoid
unnecessary complication at this stage of our development.)

Before the People in suitable Comita the traditional procedure is
that first the Praetor sets in conjunction with the accused (reus) a
date of appearance before a contio (meeting of the People). This
initiates the Anquisitio (Investigation).

Traditionally there had to be adjournment and pauses in the
proceedings, and it could not be completed in less than 24 days. We
should consider what adjournments and timing would be useful for us
in a non-real-time situation. We could use this tradition to make
sure time suffices for persons in all time zones and those who may
not have internet access every day to familiarise themselves with the
case and vote.

Traditionally the Tribunes also had the power to bring to the People
cases relating to magistrates abusing the People's trust in the
exercise of their powers - including capiutal cases of this nature.
This is a valuable alternative to the Praetor route and should
explicitly be kept, as keeping the magistrates to the law in
exercising their powers is a demonstrated problem. (See Mommsen,
Römisches Strafrecht, 156.)

For civil cases, I note that Scaevola Magister has a detailed
draught plan already formulated, that I think deserves serious
consideration. It is based on traditional Roman practice suitably
modified for our situation. Cassius rather wonders about the
desirability of having civil courts, fearing that suits do not really
solve underlying problems. I think that making this service available
might be better than having no neutral and readily-available means of
resolving such conflicts. In the case of Senator Cincinnatus' recent
displeasure over being impersonated, would anything we can easily
devise serve so well as a civil court? Such courts could also be used
to seek redress from magistates inflicting unjustified harm on
citizens.

In the "per formulam" or formulary system of later Republican civil
law, the plaintiff presents his case before the Praetor, who
investigates and discusses the matter with the parties, and then sets
out in a written "formula" a charge to a iudex (judge) to investigate
the facts and rule in accordance with the remedy provided. The iudex
could be chosen by the presiding Praetor in agreement with the
parties to the suit.

One idea worthy of consideration is making an Aedile Curator
Sermonis (correct form). The List is the closest we have to a
concrete public area we have, the Aediles don't have enough to do,
and according to tradition and the Constitution they are supposed to
have some real judicial powers, which should help them deal with
abuses to our forum.

I assume that all kinds of trials and legal actions will remain
relatively few for a long time. If not, we might have to develop
specialised courts (quaestiones). I have given only a sketch here of
what we might do, as the final result will have to be a collaborative
effort of many people in the magistracies, Senate and Comitia.

I believe that there must be a special place, as in Roma Antiqua,
for iurisconsulti, specialists in Roman and Nova Roman legal matters.
One thinks of Scaevola Magister, Marcius Rex, and Prius Fabius as
some obvious candidates for such a panal who could advise all legal
officers.

In my following Position Paper I shall present my ideas for a
minimum set of basic legal protections for the dignitas of every
civis.

Valete!

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus << CANDIDATVS PRAETORIVS >>
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Postition Paper 2: Towards a Nova Roman Judiciary System
From:	SyanneRose@--------
Date:	Mon, 4 Dec 2000 20:29:57 EST

Salvete Omnes et Formosane,

Ave, yes it is me again. Not to worry Formosanus won't bombard with too many
questions this time around. Just one actually, I understood this paper for
the most
part.

So my questions are.... Your goals you are presenting to people of Nova Roma,
are they within in our present day Constitution? Let me try a rephrase, are
they listed as tasks for the Praetor Urbanus? Or would a new constitution
need to be made, if you are elected to fit the goals you are planning?

Valete
Aeternia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Amici Dignitatis Statement
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:40:03 -0600 (CST)

> The Statement of the Amici Dignitatis was not written by me, but by
> Piscinus himself. Amici Dignitatis are all expected to sign it, as
> that is how we know who they are.
>
> I have made myself nothing resembling a "manifesto" except my first
> Position Paper, and it is certainly a moderate document,

Salve Marce Apolloni,

What is being called your "manifesto" is not the statement of the
Amici Dignitas. Rather, it is a post by you entitled "The Movement",
which is available here:

http://www.egroups.com/message/NR_DignitasForum/4

in which you advocated the removal from office of Censor Sulla, and
compared his actions to the Nazi Holocaust.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM chat
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Tue, 05 Dec 2000 01:45:53 -0000

Salvete Livia et alii:

You have a point, Liv.

As the one who has been asked to moderate this event, I am flexible on Wed.,
day and evening, timewise, as long as I know by tomorrow evening.

I know myself, I need a little time "in oblivion" after I get off work...the
last thing I would want to do is engage in a political discussion :)

Valete!!
Pompeia

>From: <gmvick32@-------->
>Reply-To: gmvick32@--------
>To: cassius622@--------
>CC: novaroma@--------
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM chat
>Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 18:05:38 -0700
>
>OK, I'll break my silence on just this matter.
>
>Cassius and Germanicus raise a very good point. In my neck
>of the woods, if I leave work at 5 p.m., I'm stuck in heavy
>commuter traffic and it takes me until 6 p.m. to get home.
>
>On the other hand, for those candidates in central Europe,
>this was already scheduled to go from 10-12 pm their time.
>
>Is there any way to shift the time frame one hour later?
>say, 11 pm to 1 am Roman time? Either that, or extend it to
>1 am Roman time??
>
>That way, maybe everybody could get a word in.
>
>Not that I expect I'll be there, just looking for middle
>ground.
>
>Livia Cornelia Aurelia
>
>cassius622@-------- wrote:
>
> > Salvete,
> >
> > Technically, you're quite correct. However, the chances of
> > my
> > actually getting home before 5:20 or even 5:30 are fairly
> > slim. I'll
> > surely try to get in at the very tail end of the debate as
> > it's
> > possible for me to do so.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Marcus Cassius Julianus
> > Candidate for Consul
> >
> >
> > --- In novaroma@--------, marcusaemiliusscaurus@h...
> > wrote:
> > > Salve Vedius Germanicus and Cassius Julianus,
> > >
> > > but the chat finishes at 6:00 your time, so it finishes
> > an hour
> > after
> > > you finish!
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > > Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
> >
> >
> > eGroups Sponsor
> [Click Here!]
> >
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

_____________________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM chat
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Dec 2000 17:49:00 -0800

Maybe we should have a couple of debates. One catering to the Europeans and one to the
Americans. :) This would be the best and most flexible proposal?

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Pompeia Cornelia wrote:

> Salvete Livia et alii:
>
> You have a point, Liv.
>
> As the one who has been asked to moderate this event, I am flexible on Wed.,
> day and evening, timewise, as long as I know by tomorrow evening.
>
> I know myself, I need a little time "in oblivion" after I get off work...the
> last thing I would want to do is engage in a political discussion :)
>
> Valete!!
> Pompeia
>
> >From: <gmvick32@-------->
> >Reply-To: gmvick32@--------
> >To: cassius622@--------
> >CC: novaroma@--------
> >Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM chat
> >Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 18:05:38 -0700
> >
> >OK, I'll break my silence on just this matter.
> >
> >Cassius and Germanicus raise a very good point. In my neck
> >of the woods, if I leave work at 5 p.m., I'm stuck in heavy
> >commuter traffic and it takes me until 6 p.m. to get home.
> >
> >On the other hand, for those candidates in central Europe,
> >this was already scheduled to go from 10-12 pm their time.
> >
> >Is there any way to shift the time frame one hour later?
> >say, 11 pm to 1 am Roman time? Either that, or extend it to
> >1 am Roman time??
> >
> >That way, maybe everybody could get a word in.
> >
> >Not that I expect I'll be there, just looking for middle
> >ground.
> >
> >Livia Cornelia Aurelia
> >
> >cassius622@-------- wrote:
> >
> > > Salvete,
> > >
> > > Technically, you're quite correct. However, the chances of
> > > my
> > > actually getting home before 5:20 or even 5:30 are fairly
> > > slim. I'll
> > > surely try to get in at the very tail end of the debate as
> > > it's
> > > possible for me to do so.
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > >
> > > Marcus Cassius Julianus
> > > Candidate for Consul
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In novaroma@--------, marcusaemiliusscaurus@h...
> > > wrote:
> > > > Salve Vedius Germanicus and Cassius Julianus,
> > > >
> > > > but the chat finishes at 6:00 your time, so it finishes
> > > an hour
> > > after
> > > > you finish!
> > > >
> > > > Valete,
> > > > Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
> > >
> > >
> > > eGroups Sponsor
> > [Click Here!]
> > >
> >
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> _____________________________________________________________________________________
> Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM chat
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Dec 2000 18:59:22 -0700

No, I'd like to see a way to keep it all in a mix....after
all, we're one big happy family, and the US and European
interests would be well served to blend and mix.....now, if
time allowed, having a couple of different times for debate
would be fine, but it should still accomodate the full slate
I'd think.

Oh, I promised to be quiet....

Livia

"L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:

> Maybe we should have a couple of debates. One catering to
> the Europeans and one to the
> Americans. :) This would be the best and most flexible
> proposal?
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
> Pompeia Cornelia wrote:
>
> > Salvete Livia et alii:
> >
> > You have a point, Liv.
> >
> > As the one who has been asked to moderate this event, I
> am flexible on Wed.,
> > day and evening, timewise, as long as I know by tomorrow
> evening.
> >
> > I know myself, I need a little time "in oblivion" after
> I get off work...the
> > last thing I would want to do is engage in a political
> discussion :)
> >
> > Valete!!
> > Pompeia
> >
> > >From: <gmvick32@-------->
> > >Reply-To: gmvick32@--------
> > >To: cassius622@--------
> > >CC: novaroma@--------
> > >Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM chat
> > >Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 18:05:38 -0700
> > >
> > >OK, I'll break my silence on just this matter.
> > >
> > >Cassius and Germanicus raise a very good point. In my
> neck
> > >of the woods, if I leave work at 5 p.m., I'm stuck in
> heavy
> > >commuter traffic and it takes me until 6 p.m. to get
> home.
> > >
> > >On the other hand, for those candidates in central
> Europe,
> > >this was already scheduled to go from 10-12 pm their
> time.
> > >
> > >Is there any way to shift the time frame one hour
> later?
> > >say, 11 pm to 1 am Roman time? Either that, or extend
> it to
> > >1 am Roman time??
> > >
> > >That way, maybe everybody could get a word in.
> > >
> > >Not that I expect I'll be there, just looking for
> middle
> > >ground.
> > >
> > >Livia Cornelia Aurelia
> > >
> > >cassius622@-------- wrote:
> > >
> > > > Salvete,
> > > >
> > > > Technically, you're quite correct. However, the
> chances of
> > > > my
> > > > actually getting home before 5:20 or even 5:30 are
> fairly
> > > > slim. I'll
> > > > surely try to get in at the very tail end of the
> debate as
> > > > it's
> > > > possible for me to do so.
> > > >
> > > > Valete,
> > > >
> > > > Marcus Cassius Julianus
> > > > Candidate for Consul
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In novaroma@--------,
> marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Salve Vedius Germanicus and Cassius Julianus,
> > > > >
> > > > > but the chat finishes at 6:00 your time, so it
> finishes
> > > > an hour
> > > > after
> > > > > you finish!
> > > > >
> > > > > Valete,
> > > > > Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > eGroups Sponsor
> > > [Click Here!]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> _____________________________________________________________________________________
>
> > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
> http://explorer.msn.com
> >
>
>
> eGroups Sponsor
[Click Here!]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM chat
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 4 Dec 2000 20:51:14 -0500

Salve;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
[mailto:marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------]
> Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 3:47 PM
>
> Salve Vedius Germanicus and Cassius Julianus,
>
> but the chat finishes at 6:00 your time, so it finishes an hour after
> you finish!

I don't know what the roads are like in Britannia during rush hour, but I
have an hour commute each way to and from work! I'm afraid we haven't quite
gotten that transporter technology down pat here in the States; I don't just
"beam" home from work. ;-)

As long as the chat log is posted somewhere, I'll plan on simply posting my
own comments in an annotated version either here or on my campaign website.
It won't have the spontaneous give-and-take of a live chat, but it's better
than nothing.

That's assuming the chat will not be moved, of course; but since it's so
convenient to the Amici Dignitas signatores that are arranging it and,
completely coincidentally I'm sure, inconvenient to impossible for Americans
to participate, I doubt it will be moved.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul

http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM chat
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Dec 2000 17:55:29 -0800

But as you can see from the way it was orginally structured it obviously
is not in favor of both time frames since the Americans who are running
for office are still at work...if we want to have it favorable..we
should have it on the weekend..wouldnt you agree?

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

gmvick32@-------- wrote:

> No, I'd like to see a way to keep it all in a mix....after all, we're
> one big happy family, and the US and European interests would be well
> served to blend and mix.....now, if time allowed, having a couple of
> different times for debate would be fine, but it should still
> accomodate the full slate I'd think.
>
> Oh, I promised to be quiet....
>
> Livia
>
>
>
>
> "L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:
>
>> Maybe we should have a couple of debates. One catering to the
>> Europeans and one to the
>> Americans. :) This would be the best and most flexible proposal?
>>
>> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>>
>>
>> Pompeia Cornelia wrote:
>>
>> > Salvete Livia et alii:
>> >
>> > You have a point, Liv.
>> >
>> > As the one who has been asked to moderate this event, I am
>> flexible on Wed.,
>> > day and evening, timewise, as long as I know by tomorrow evening.
>> >
>> > I know myself, I need a little time "in oblivion" after I get off
>> work...the
>> > last thing I would want to do is engage in a political discussion
>> :)
>> >
>> > Valete!!
>> > Pompeia
>> >
>> > >From: <gmvick32@-------->
>> > >Reply-To: gmvick32@--------
>> > >To: cassius622@--------
>> > >CC: novaroma@--------
>> > >Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM chat
>> > >Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 18:05:38 -0700
>> > >
>> > >OK, I'll break my silence on just this matter.
>> > >
>> > >Cassius and Germanicus raise a very good point. In my neck
>> > >of the woods, if I leave work at 5 p.m., I'm stuck in heavy
>> > >commuter traffic and it takes me until 6 p.m. to get home.
>> > >
>> > >On the other hand, for those candidates in central Europe,
>> > >this was already scheduled to go from 10-12 pm their time.
>> > >
>> > >Is there any way to shift the time frame one hour later?
>> > >say, 11 pm to 1 am Roman time? Either that, or extend it to
>> > >1 am Roman time??
>> > >
>> > >That way, maybe everybody could get a word in.
>> > >
>> > >Not that I expect I'll be there, just looking for middle
>> > >ground.
>> > >
>> > >Livia Cornelia Aurelia
>> > >
>> > >cassius622@-------- wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Salvete,
>> > > >
>> > > > Technically, you're quite correct. However, the chances of
>> > > > my
>> > > > actually getting home before 5:20 or even 5:30 are fairly
>> > > > slim. I'll
>> > > > surely try to get in at the very tail end of the debate as
>> > > > it's
>> > > > possible for me to do so.
>> > > >
>> > > > Valete,
>> > > >
>> > > > Marcus Cassius Julianus
>> > > > Candidate for Consul
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > --- In novaroma@--------, marcusaemiliusscaurus@h...
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > > > Salve Vedius Germanicus and Cassius Julianus,
>> > > > >
>> > > > > but the chat finishes at 6:00 your time, so it finishes
>> > > > an hour
>> > > > after
>> > > > > you finish!
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Valete,
>> > > > > Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > eGroups Sponsor
>> > > [Click Here!]
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> _____________________________________________________________________________________
>>
>> > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
>> http://explorer.msn.com
>> >
>>
>>
>> eGroups Sponsor
[Click Here!]
>>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM chat
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Dec 2000 19:07:26 -0700

I don't think it was intentially scheduled to keep anybody
out.....after all, it's also scheduled at a bad time for the
Europeans, who are likely to be in their jammies and anxious
to go to bed so they could be at work promptly in the
morning!!! We''re operating with a bit of a difficulty here,
but it's one we can overcome...

A weekend would be preferred, but voting starts on Thursday.

Livia

"L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:

> But as you can see from the way it was orginally
> structured it obviously
> is not in favor of both time frames since the Americans
> who are running
> for office are still at work...if we want to have it
> favorable..we
> should have it on the weekend..wouldnt you agree?
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
> gmvick32@-------- wrote:
>
> > No, I'd like to see a way to keep it all in a
> mix....after all, we're
> > one big happy family, and the US and European interests
> would be well
> > served to blend and mix.....now, if time allowed, having
> a couple of
> > different times for debate would be fine, but it should
> still
> > accomodate the full slate I'd think.
> >
> > Oh, I promised to be quiet....
> >
> > Livia
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:
> >
> >> Maybe we should have a couple of debates. One catering
> to the
> >> Europeans and one to the
> >> Americans. :) This would be the best and most flexible
> proposal?
> >>
> >> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >>
> >>
> >> Pompeia Cornelia wrote:
> >>
> >> > Salvete Livia et alii:
> >> >
> >> > You have a point, Liv.
> >> >
> >> > As the one who has been asked to moderate this event,
> I am
> >> flexible on Wed.,
> >> > day and evening, timewise, as long as I know by
> tomorrow evening.
> >> >
> >> > I know myself, I need a little time "in oblivion"
> after I get off
> >> work...the
> >> > last thing I would want to do is engage in a
> political discussion
> >> :)
> >> >
> >> > Valete!!
> >> > Pompeia
> >> >
> >> > >From: <gmvick32@-------->
> >> > >Reply-To: gmvick32@--------
> >> > >To: cassius622@--------
> >> > >CC: novaroma@--------
> >> > >Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM chat
> >> > >Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 18:05:38 -0700
> >> > >
> >> > >OK, I'll break my silence on just this matter.
> >> > >
> >> > >Cassius and Germanicus raise a very good point. In
> my neck
> >> > >of the woods, if I leave work at 5 p.m., I'm stuck
> in heavy
> >> > >commuter traffic and it takes me until 6 p.m. to get
> home.
> >> > >
> >> > >On the other hand, for those candidates in central
> Europe,
> >> > >this was already scheduled to go from 10-12 pm their
> time.
> >> > >
> >> > >Is there any way to shift the time frame one hour
> later?
> >> > >say, 11 pm to 1 am Roman time? Either that, or
> extend it to
> >> > >1 am Roman time??
> >> > >
> >> > >That way, maybe everybody could get a word in.
> >> > >
> >> > >Not that I expect I'll be there, just looking for
> middle
> >> > >ground.
> >> > >
> >> > >Livia Cornelia Aurelia
> >> > >
> >> > >cassius622@-------- wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > Salvete,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Technically, you're quite correct. However, the
> chances of
> >> > > > my
> >> > > > actually getting home before 5:20 or even 5:30
> are fairly
> >> > > > slim. I'll
> >> > > > surely try to get in at the very tail end of the
> debate as
> >> > > > it's
> >> > > > possible for me to do so.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Valete,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Marcus Cassius Julianus
> >> > > > Candidate for Consul
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > --- In novaroma@--------,
> marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > Salve Vedius Germanicus and Cassius Julianus,
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > but the chat finishes at 6:00 your time, so it
> finishes
> >> > > > an hour
> >> > > > after
> >> > > > > you finish!
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Valete,
> >> > > > > Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > eGroups Sponsor
> >> > > [Click Here!]
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >[Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> _____________________________________________________________________________________
>
> >>
> >> > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
> >> http://explorer.msn.com
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> eGroups Sponsor
> [Click Here!]
> >>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> eGroups Sponsor
[Click Here!]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM chat
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Dec 2000 19:10:06 -0700

Sorry if I just posted that last mulitple times....

Livia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM chat
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Dec 2000 18:04:19 -0800

So, for those who are undecided voters....the election goes LONGER than just 2 days...I am
sure those would love to have a opportunty to wait to hear from the candidates in a live
debate on Saturday...dont you think?

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

gmvick32@-------- wrote:

> I don't think it was intentially scheduled to keep anybody
> out.....after all, it's also scheduled at a bad time for the
> Europeans, who are likely to be in their jammies and anxious
> to go to bed so they could be at work promptly in the
> morning!!! We''re operating with a bit of a difficulty here,
> but it's one we can overcome...
>
> A weekend would be preferred, but voting starts on Thursday.
>
> Livia
>
> "L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:
>
> > But as you can see from the way it was orginally
> > structured it obviously
> > is not in favor of both time frames since the Americans
> > who are running
> > for office are still at work...if we want to have it
> > favorable..we
> > should have it on the weekend..wouldnt you agree?
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >
> >
> > gmvick32@-------- wrote:
> >
> > > No, I'd like to see a way to keep it all in a
> > mix....after all, we're
> > > one big happy family, and the US and European interests
> > would be well
> > > served to blend and mix.....now, if time allowed, having
> > a couple of
> > > different times for debate would be fine, but it should
> > still
> > > accomodate the full slate I'd think.
> > >
> > > Oh, I promised to be quiet....
> > >
> > > Livia
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:
> > >
> > >> Maybe we should have a couple of debates. One catering
> > to the
> > >> Europeans and one to the
> > >> Americans. :) This would be the best and most flexible
> > proposal?
> > >>
> > >> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Pompeia Cornelia wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Salvete Livia et alii:
> > >> >
> > >> > You have a point, Liv.
> > >> >
> > >> > As the one who has been asked to moderate this event,
> > I am
> > >> flexible on Wed.,
> > >> > day and evening, timewise, as long as I know by
> > tomorrow evening.
> > >> >
> > >> > I know myself, I need a little time "in oblivion"
> > after I get off
> > >> work...the
> > >> > last thing I would want to do is engage in a
> > political discussion
> > >> :)
> > >> >
> > >> > Valete!!
> > >> > Pompeia
> > >> >
> > >> > >From: <gmvick32@-------->
> > >> > >Reply-To: gmvick32@--------
> > >> > >To: cassius622@--------
> > >> > >CC: novaroma@--------
> > >> > >Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM chat
> > >> > >Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 18:05:38 -0700
> > >> > >
> > >> > >OK, I'll break my silence on just this matter.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >Cassius and Germanicus raise a very good point. In
> > my neck
> > >> > >of the woods, if I leave work at 5 p.m., I'm stuck
> > in heavy
> > >> > >commuter traffic and it takes me until 6 p.m. to get
> > home.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >On the other hand, for those candidates in central
> > Europe,
> > >> > >this was already scheduled to go from 10-12 pm their
> > time.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >Is there any way to shift the time frame one hour
> > later?
> > >> > >say, 11 pm to 1 am Roman time? Either that, or
> > extend it to
> > >> > >1 am Roman time??
> > >> > >
> > >> > >That way, maybe everybody could get a word in.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >Not that I expect I'll be there, just looking for
> > middle
> > >> > >ground.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >Livia Cornelia Aurelia
> > >> > >
> > >> > >cassius622@-------- wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > Salvete,
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Technically, you're quite correct. However, the
> > chances of
> > >> > > > my
> > >> > > > actually getting home before 5:20 or even 5:30
> > are fairly
> > >> > > > slim. I'll
> > >> > > > surely try to get in at the very tail end of the
> > debate as
> > >> > > > it's
> > >> > > > possible for me to do so.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Valete,
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Marcus Cassius Julianus
> > >> > > > Candidate for Consul
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > --- In novaroma@--------,
> > marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
> > >> > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > Salve Vedius Germanicus and Cassius Julianus,
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > but the chat finishes at 6:00 your time, so it
> > finishes
> > >> > > > an hour
> > >> > > > after
> > >> > > > > you finish!
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > Valete,
> > >> > > > > Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > eGroups Sponsor
> > >> > > [Click Here!]
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >[Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > _____________________________________________________________________________________
> >
> > >>
> > >> > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
> > >> http://explorer.msn.com
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> eGroups Sponsor
> > [Click Here!]
> > >>
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > eGroups Sponsor
> [Click Here!]
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
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---------------------------------------------------------------------_->


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM chat
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Dec 2000 19:13:32 -0700

OK....so I put out an official request for a second debate
to be scheduled on the weekend. Organizer, anyone?? Can't
be me.

Livia

"L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:

> So, for those who are undecided voters....the election
> goes LONGER than just 2 days...I am
> sure those would love to have a opportunty to wait to hear
> from the candidates in a live
> debate on Saturday...dont you think?
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
> gmvick32@-------- wrote:
>
> > I don't think it was intentially scheduled to keep
> anybody
> > out.....after all, it's also scheduled at a bad time for
> the
> > Europeans, who are likely to be in their jammies and
> anxious
> > to go to bed so they could be at work promptly in the
> > morning!!! We''re operating with a bit of a difficulty
> here,
> > but it's one we can overcome...
> >
> > A weekend would be preferred, but voting starts on
> Thursday.
> >
> > Livia
> >
> > "L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:
> >
> > > But as you can see from the way it was orginally
> > > structured it obviously
> > > is not in favor of both time frames since the
> Americans
> > > who are running
> > > for office are still at work...if we want to have it
> > > favorable..we
> > > should have it on the weekend..wouldnt you agree?
> > >
> > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > >
> > >
> > > gmvick32@-------- wrote:
> > >
> > > > No, I'd like to see a way to keep it all in a
> > > mix....after all, we're
> > > > one big happy family, and the US and European
> interests
> > > would be well
> > > > served to blend and mix.....now, if time allowed,
> having
> > > a couple of
> > > > different times for debate would be fine, but it
> should
> > > still
> > > > accomodate the full slate I'd think.
> > > >
> > > > Oh, I promised to be quiet....
> > > >
> > > > Livia
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Maybe we should have a couple of debates. One
> catering
> > > to the
> > > >> Europeans and one to the
> > > >> Americans. :) This would be the best and most
> flexible
> > > proposal?
> > > >>
> > > >> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Pompeia Cornelia wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > Salvete Livia et alii:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > You have a point, Liv.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > As the one who has been asked to moderate this
> event,
> > > I am
> > > >> flexible on Wed.,
> > > >> > day and evening, timewise, as long as I know by
> > > tomorrow evening.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I know myself, I need a little time "in oblivion"
>
> > > after I get off
> > > >> work...the
> > > >> > last thing I would want to do is engage in a
> > > political discussion
> > > >> :)
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Valete!!
> > > >> > Pompeia
> > > >> >
> > > >> > >From: <gmvick32@-------->
> > > >> > >Reply-To: gmvick32@--------
> > > >> > >To: cassius622@--------
> > > >> > >CC: novaroma@--------
> > > >> > >Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM
> chat
> > > >> > >Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 18:05:38 -0700
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >OK, I'll break my silence on just this matter.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >Cassius and Germanicus raise a very good point.
> In
> > > my neck
> > > >> > >of the woods, if I leave work at 5 p.m., I'm
> stuck
> > > in heavy
> > > >> > >commuter traffic and it takes me until 6 p.m. to
> get
> > > home.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >On the other hand, for those candidates in
> central
> > > Europe,
> > > >> > >this was already scheduled to go from 10-12 pm
> their
> > > time.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >Is there any way to shift the time frame one
> hour
> > > later?
> > > >> > >say, 11 pm to 1 am Roman time? Either that, or
> > > extend it to
> > > >> > >1 am Roman time??
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >That way, maybe everybody could get a word in.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >Not that I expect I'll be there, just looking
> for
> > > middle
> > > >> > >ground.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >Livia Cornelia Aurelia
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >cassius622@-------- wrote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > > Salvete,
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Technically, you're quite correct. However,
> the
> > > chances of
> > > >> > > > my
> > > >> > > > actually getting home before 5:20 or even
> 5:30
> > > are fairly
> > > >> > > > slim. I'll
> > > >> > > > surely try to get in at the very tail end of
> the
> > > debate as
> > > >> > > > it's
> > > >> > > > possible for me to do so.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Valete,
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Marcus Cassius Julianus
> > > >> > > > Candidate for Consul
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > --- In novaroma@--------,
> > > marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
> > > >> > > > wrote:
> > > >> > > > > Salve Vedius Germanicus and Cassius
> Julianus,
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > but the chat finishes at 6:00 your time, so
> it
> > > finishes
> > > >> > > > an hour
> > > >> > > > after
> > > >> > > > > you finish!
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > Valete,
> > > >> > > > > Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > eGroups Sponsor
> > > >> > > [Click Here!]
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >[Non-text portions of this message have been
> > > removed]
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > >
> _____________________________________________________________________________________
>
> > >
> > > >>
> > > >> > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer
> download :
> > > >> http://explorer.msn.com
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> eGroups Sponsor
> > > [Click Here!]
> > > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > > eGroups Sponsor
> > [Click Here!]
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
> eGroups Sponsor
[Click Here!]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM chat
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Dec 2000 18:11:44 -0800

Well I can assist in some organization.....By that time I will be done with Censor work
during the elections. For the sake of the democartic process, I will volunteer my time and
services for this endeavor.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

gmvick32@-------- wrote:

> OK....so I put out an official request for a second debate
> to be scheduled on the weekend. Organizer, anyone?? Can't
> be me.
>
> Livia
>
> "L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:
>
> > So, for those who are undecided voters....the election
> > goes LONGER than just 2 days...I am
> > sure those would love to have a opportunty to wait to hear
> > from the candidates in a live
> > debate on Saturday...dont you think?
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >
> >
> > gmvick32@-------- wrote:
> >
> > > I don't think it was intentially scheduled to keep
> > anybody
> > > out.....after all, it's also scheduled at a bad time for
> > the
> > > Europeans, who are likely to be in their jammies and
> > anxious
> > > to go to bed so they could be at work promptly in the
> > > morning!!! We''re operating with a bit of a difficulty
> > here,
> > > but it's one we can overcome...
> > >
> > > A weekend would be preferred, but voting starts on
> > Thursday.
> > >
> > > Livia
> > >
> > > "L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:
> > >
> > > > But as you can see from the way it was orginally
> > > > structured it obviously
> > > > is not in favor of both time frames since the
> > Americans
> > > > who are running
> > > > for office are still at work...if we want to have it
> > > > favorable..we
> > > > should have it on the weekend..wouldnt you agree?
> > > >
> > > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > gmvick32@-------- wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > No, I'd like to see a way to keep it all in a
> > > > mix....after all, we're
> > > > > one big happy family, and the US and European
> > interests
> > > > would be well
> > > > > served to blend and mix.....now, if time allowed,
> > having
> > > > a couple of
> > > > > different times for debate would be fine, but it
> > should
> > > > still
> > > > > accomodate the full slate I'd think.
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, I promised to be quiet....
> > > > >
> > > > > Livia
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Maybe we should have a couple of debates. One
> > catering
> > > > to the
> > > > >> Europeans and one to the
> > > > >> Americans. :) This would be the best and most
> > flexible
> > > > proposal?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Pompeia Cornelia wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > Salvete Livia et alii:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > You have a point, Liv.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > As the one who has been asked to moderate this
> > event,
> > > > I am
> > > > >> flexible on Wed.,
> > > > >> > day and evening, timewise, as long as I know by
> > > > tomorrow evening.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > I know myself, I need a little time "in oblivion"
> >
> > > > after I get off
> > > > >> work...the
> > > > >> > last thing I would want to do is engage in a
> > > > political discussion
> > > > >> :)
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Valete!!
> > > > >> > Pompeia
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > >From: <gmvick32@-------->
> > > > >> > >Reply-To: gmvick32@--------
> > > > >> > >To: cassius622@--------
> > > > >> > >CC: novaroma@--------
> > > > >> > >Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM
> > chat
> > > > >> > >Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 18:05:38 -0700
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >OK, I'll break my silence on just this matter.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >Cassius and Germanicus raise a very good point.
> > In
> > > > my neck
> > > > >> > >of the woods, if I leave work at 5 p.m., I'm
> > stuck
> > > > in heavy
> > > > >> > >commuter traffic and it takes me until 6 p.m. to
> > get
> > > > home.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >On the other hand, for those candidates in
> > central
> > > > Europe,
> > > > >> > >this was already scheduled to go from 10-12 pm
> > their
> > > > time.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >Is there any way to shift the time frame one
> > hour
> > > > later?
> > > > >> > >say, 11 pm to 1 am Roman time? Either that, or
> > > > extend it to
> > > > >> > >1 am Roman time??
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >That way, maybe everybody could get a word in.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >Not that I expect I'll be there, just looking
> > for
> > > > middle
> > > > >> > >ground.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >Livia Cornelia Aurelia
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >cassius622@-------- wrote:
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > > Salvete,
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > Technically, you're quite correct. However,
> > the
> > > > chances of
> > > > >> > > > my
> > > > >> > > > actually getting home before 5:20 or even
> > 5:30
> > > > are fairly
> > > > >> > > > slim. I'll
> > > > >> > > > surely try to get in at the very tail end of
> > the
> > > > debate as
> > > > >> > > > it's
> > > > >> > > > possible for me to do so.
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > Valete,
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > Marcus Cassius Julianus
> > > > >> > > > Candidate for Consul
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > --- In novaroma@--------,
> > > > marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
> > > > >> > > > wrote:
> > > > >> > > > > Salve Vedius Germanicus and Cassius
> > Julianus,
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > > but the chat finishes at 6:00 your time, so
> > it
> > > > finishes
> > > > >> > > > an hour
> > > > >> > > > after
> > > > >> > > > > you finish!
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > > Valete,
> > > > >> > > > > Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > eGroups Sponsor
> > > > >> > > [Click Here!]
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >[Non-text portions of this message have been
> > > > removed]
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > _____________________________________________________________________________________
> >
> > > >
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer
> > download :
> > > > >> http://explorer.msn.com
> > > > >> >
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> eGroups Sponsor
> > > > [Click Here!]
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > eGroups Sponsor
> > > [Click Here!]
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> > eGroups Sponsor
> [Click Here!]
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM chat
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 4 Dec 2000 21:19:10 -0500

Salvete;

Indeed; since Lucius Cornelius Sulla is one of the few notables in Nova Roma
who isn't running for anything this year, I think he'd make a good organizer
of a debate. Better, certainly, than someone who is himself running for
office.

Although some candidates running for office do hold a certain animosity for
Sulla, and it is definitely better to avoid even the appearance of
impropriety (even though I have the fullest confidence Sulla would do such a
job impartially), perhaps one of our fine Rogatores would feel up to the
challenge; they too, by law, are incapable of running for office this year,
and I would trust them to be impartial if one of them wished to pick up the
task of organizing a debate or debates.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul

http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus

> -----Original Message-----
> From: L. Cornelius Sulla [mailto:alexious@--------]
> Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 9:12 PM
> To: gmvick32@--------
> Cc: Pompeia Cornelia; cassius622@--------; novaroma@egroups.com
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM chat
>
>
> Well I can assist in some organization.....By that time I will be
> done with Censor work
> during the elections. For the sake of the democartic process, I
> will volunteer my time and
> services for this endeavor.
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
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It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM chat
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Dec 2000 19:27:44 -0700

That sounds great!!! Now there will be one debate
spearheaded by the Amici, and one by the...more traditional
side of the election. Hopefully that will help everybody
feel the election debates are organized for all interested
parties' benefit.

Sulla, I'm sure Piscinus or another of the Amici would help
you if you want it. Otherwise, please post the details to
the list so both the US and European candidates can be
prepared for the time and place. Perhaps Po will agree to
moderate again, but you should probably ask her.

(I really need to step out of this)
Livia

"L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:

> Well I can assist in some organization.....By that time I
> will be done with Censor work
> during the elections. For the sake of the democartic
> process, I will volunteer my time and
> services for this endeavor.
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
> gmvick32@-------- wrote:
>
> > OK....so I put out an official request for a second
> debate
> > to be scheduled on the weekend. Organizer, anyone??
> Can't
> > be me.
> >
> > Livia
> >
> > "L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:
> >
> > > So, for those who are undecided voters....the election
>
> > > goes LONGER than just 2 days...I am
> > > sure those would love to have a opportunty to wait to
> hear
> > > from the candidates in a live
> > > debate on Saturday...dont you think?
> > >
> > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > >
> > >
> > > gmvick32@-------- wrote:
> > >
> > > > I don't think it was intentially scheduled to keep
> > > anybody
> > > > out.....after all, it's also scheduled at a bad time
> for
> > > the
> > > > Europeans, who are likely to be in their jammies and
>
> > > anxious
> > > > to go to bed so they could be at work promptly in
> the
> > > > morning!!! We''re operating with a bit of a
> difficulty
> > > here,
> > > > but it's one we can overcome...
> > > >
> > > > A weekend would be preferred, but voting starts on
> > > Thursday.
> > > >
> > > > Livia
> > > >
> > > > "L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > But as you can see from the way it was orginally
> > > > > structured it obviously
> > > > > is not in favor of both time frames since the
> > > Americans
> > > > > who are running
> > > > > for office are still at work...if we want to have
> it
> > > > > favorable..we
> > > > > should have it on the weekend..wouldnt you agree?
> > > > >
> > > > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > gmvick32@-------- wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > No, I'd like to see a way to keep it all in a
> > > > > mix....after all, we're
> > > > > > one big happy family, and the US and European
> > > interests
> > > > > would be well
> > > > > > served to blend and mix.....now, if time
> allowed,
> > > having
> > > > > a couple of
> > > > > > different times for debate would be fine, but it
>
> > > should
> > > > > still
> > > > > > accomodate the full slate I'd think.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oh, I promised to be quiet....
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Livia
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Maybe we should have a couple of debates. One
> > > catering
> > > > > to the
> > > > > >> Europeans and one to the
> > > > > >> Americans. :) This would be the best and most
> > > flexible
> > > > > proposal?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Pompeia Cornelia wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > Salvete Livia et alii:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > You have a point, Liv.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > As the one who has been asked to moderate
> this
> > > event,
> > > > > I am
> > > > > >> flexible on Wed.,
> > > > > >> > day and evening, timewise, as long as I know
> by
> > > > > tomorrow evening.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > I know myself, I need a little time "in
> oblivion"
> > >
> > > > > after I get off
> > > > > >> work...the
> > > > > >> > last thing I would want to do is engage in a
> > > > > political discussion
> > > > > >> :)
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Valete!!
> > > > > >> > Pompeia
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > >From: <gmvick32@-------->
> > > > > >> > >Reply-To: gmvick32@--------
> > > > > >> > >To: cassius622@--------
> > > > > >> > >CC: novaroma@--------
> > > > > >> > >Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM
>
> > > chat
> > > > > >> > >Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 18:05:38 -0700
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >OK, I'll break my silence on just this
> matter.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >Cassius and Germanicus raise a very good
> point.
> > > In
> > > > > my neck
> > > > > >> > >of the woods, if I leave work at 5 p.m., I'm
>
> > > stuck
> > > > > in heavy
> > > > > >> > >commuter traffic and it takes me until 6
> p.m. to
> > > get
> > > > > home.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >On the other hand, for those candidates in
> > > central
> > > > > Europe,
> > > > > >> > >this was already scheduled to go from 10-12
> pm
> > > their
> > > > > time.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >Is there any way to shift the time frame one
>
> > > hour
> > > > > later?
> > > > > >> > >say, 11 pm to 1 am Roman time? Either that,
> or
> > > > > extend it to
> > > > > >> > >1 am Roman time??
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >That way, maybe everybody could get a word
> in.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >Not that I expect I'll be there, just
> looking
> > > for
> > > > > middle
> > > > > >> > >ground.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >Livia Cornelia Aurelia
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >cassius622@-------- wrote:
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > > Salvete,
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > Technically, you're quite correct.
> However,
> > > the
> > > > > chances of
> > > > > >> > > > my
> > > > > >> > > > actually getting home before 5:20 or even
>
> > > 5:30
> > > > > are fairly
> > > > > >> > > > slim. I'll
> > > > > >> > > > surely try to get in at the very tail end
> of
> > > the
> > > > > debate as
> > > > > >> > > > it's
> > > > > >> > > > possible for me to do so.
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > Valete,
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > Marcus Cassius Julianus
> > > > > >> > > > Candidate for Consul
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > --- In novaroma@--------,
> > > > > marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
> > > > > >> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > > Salve Vedius Germanicus and Cassius
> > > Julianus,
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > but the chat finishes at 6:00 your
> time, so
> > > it
> > > > > finishes
> > > > > >> > > > an hour
> > > > > >> > > > after
> > > > > >> > > > > you finish!
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > Valete,
> > > > > >> > > > > Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > eGroups Sponsor
> > > > > >> > > [Click Here!]
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >[Non-text portions of this message have been
>
> > > > > removed]
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > >
> _____________________________________________________________________________________
>
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer
> > > download :
> > > > > >> http://explorer.msn.com
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> eGroups Sponsor
> > > > > [Click Here!]
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > eGroups Sponsor
> > > > [Click Here!]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > eGroups Sponsor
> > [Click Here!]
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
> eGroups Sponsor
[Click Here!]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
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It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM chat
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Dec 2000 18:29:44 -0800

gmvick32@-------- wrote:

> That sounds great!!! Now there will be one debate spearheaded by the
> Amici, and one by the...more traditional side of the election.
> Hopefully that will help everybody feel the election debates are
> organized for all interested parties' benefit.
>

Well, as long as you are not running for office I will be pleased for
assistance. To me its a conflict of interest to organize a debate when
you are running for office.

>
> Sulla, I'm sure Piscinus or another of the Amici would help you if you
> want it. Otherwise, please post the details to the list so both the
> US and European candidates can be prepared for the time and place.
> Perhaps Po will agree to moderate again, but you should probably ask
> her.
>

As long as you are not running for office please feel free to contact me
if you are interested in helping.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

>
> (I really need to step out of this)
> Livia
>
>
>
> "L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:
>
>> Well I can assist in some organization.....By that time I will be
>> done with Censor work
>> during the elections. For the sake of the democartic process, I
>> will volunteer my time and
>> services for this endeavor.
>>
>> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>>
>>
>> gmvick32@-------- wrote:
>>
>> > OK....so I put out an official request for a second debate
>> > to be scheduled on the weekend. Organizer, anyone?? Can't
>> > be me.
>> >
>> > Livia
>> >
>> > "L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:
>> >
>> > > So, for those who are undecided voters....the election
>> > > goes LONGER than just 2 days...I am
>> > > sure those would love to have a opportunty to wait to hear
>> > > from the candidates in a live
>> > > debate on Saturday...dont you think?
>> > >
>> > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > gmvick32@-------- wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > I don't think it was intentially scheduled to keep
>> > > anybody
>> > > > out.....after all, it's also scheduled at a bad time for
>> > > the
>> > > > Europeans, who are likely to be in their jammies and
>> > > anxious
>> > > > to go to bed so they could be at work promptly in the
>> > > > morning!!! We''re operating with a bit of a difficulty
>> > > here,
>> > > > but it's one we can overcome...
>> > > >
>> > > > A weekend would be preferred, but voting starts on
>> > > Thursday.
>> > > >
>> > > > Livia
>> > > >
>> > > > "L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > But as you can see from the way it was orginally
>> > > > > structured it obviously
>> > > > > is not in favor of both time frames since the
>> > > Americans
>> > > > > who are running
>> > > > > for office are still at work...if we want to have it
>> > > > > favorable..we
>> > > > > should have it on the weekend..wouldnt you agree?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > gmvick32@-------- wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > No, I'd like to see a way to keep it all in a
>> > > > > mix....after all, we're
>> > > > > > one big happy family, and the US and European
>> > > interests
>> > > > > would be well
>> > > > > > served to blend and mix.....now, if time allowed,
>> > > having
>> > > > > a couple of
>> > > > > > different times for debate would be fine, but it
>> > > should
>> > > > > still
>> > > > > > accomodate the full slate I'd think.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Oh, I promised to be quiet....
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Livia
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > "L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >> Maybe we should have a couple of debates. One
>> > > catering
>> > > > > to the
>> > > > > >> Europeans and one to the
>> > > > > >> Americans. :) This would be the best and most
>> > > flexible
>> > > > > proposal?
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> Pompeia Cornelia wrote:
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> > Salvete Livia et alii:
>> > > > > >> >
>> > > > > >> > You have a point, Liv.
>> > > > > >> >
>> > > > > >> > As the one who has been asked to moderate this
>> > > event,
>> > > > > I am
>> > > > > >> flexible on Wed.,
>> > > > > >> > day and evening, timewise, as long as I know by
>> > > > > tomorrow evening.
>> > > > > >> >
>> > > > > >> > I know myself, I need a little time "in oblivion"
>> > >
>> > > > > after I get off
>> > > > > >> work...the
>> > > > > >> > last thing I would want to do is engage in a
>> > > > > political discussion
>> > > > > >> :)
>> > > > > >> >
>> > > > > >> > Valete!!
>> > > > > >> > Pompeia
>> > > > > >> >
>> > > > > >> > >From: <gmvick32@-------->
>> > > > > >> > >Reply-To: gmvick32@--------
>> > > > > >> > >To: cassius622@--------
>> > > > > >> > >CC: novaroma@--------
>> > > > > >> > >Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM
>> > > chat
>> > > > > >> > >Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 18:05:38 -0700
>> > > > > >> > >
>> > > > > >> > >OK, I'll break my silence on just this matter.
>> > > > > >> > >
>> > > > > >> > >Cassius and Germanicus raise a very good point.
>> > > In
>> > > > > my neck
>> > > > > >> > >of the woods, if I leave work at 5 p.m., I'm
>> > > stuck
>> > > > > in heavy
>> > > > > >> > >commuter traffic and it takes me until 6 p.m. to
>> > > get
>> > > > > home.
>> > > > > >> > >
>> > > > > >> > >On the other hand, for those candidates in
>> > > central
>> > > > > Europe,
>> > > > > >> > >this was already scheduled to go from 10-12 pm
>> > > their
>> > > > > time.
>> > > > > >> > >
>> > > > > >> > >Is there any way to shift the time frame one
>> > > hour
>> > > > > later?
>> > > > > >> > >say, 11 pm to 1 am Roman time? Either that, or
>> > > > > extend it to
>> > > > > >> > >1 am Roman time??
>> > > > > >> > >
>> > > > > >> > >That way, maybe everybody could get a word in.
>> > > > > >> > >
>> > > > > >> > >Not that I expect I'll be there, just looking
>> > > for
>> > > > > middle
>> > > > > >> > >ground.
>> > > > > >> > >
>> > > > > >> > >Livia Cornelia Aurelia
>> > > > > >> > >
>> > > > > >> > >cassius622@-------- wrote:
>> > > > > >> > >
>> > > > > >> > > > Salvete,
>> > > > > >> > > >
>> > > > > >> > > > Technically, you're quite correct. However,
>> > > the
>> > > > > chances of
>> > > > > >> > > > my
>> > > > > >> > > > actually getting home before 5:20 or even
>> > > 5:30
>> > > > > are fairly
>> > > > > >> > > > slim. I'll
>> > > > > >> > > > surely try to get in at the very tail end of
>> > > the
>> > > > > debate as
>> > > > > >> > > > it's
>> > > > > >> > > > possible for me to do so.
>> > > > > >> > > >
>> > > > > >> > > > Valete,
>> > > > > >> > > >
>> > > > > >> > > > Marcus Cassius Julianus
>> > > > > >> > > > Candidate for Consul
>> > > > > >> > > >
>> > > > > >> > > >
>> > > > > >> > > > --- In novaroma@--------,
>> > > > > marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
>> > > > > >> > > > wrote:
>> > > > > >> > > > > Salve Vedius Germanicus and Cassius
>> > > Julianus,
>> > > > > >> > > > >
>> > > > > >> > > > > but the chat finishes at 6:00 your time, so
>> > > it
>> > > > > finishes
>> > > > > >> > > > an hour
>> > > > > >> > > > after
>> > > > > >> > > > > you finish!
>> > > > > >> > > > >
>> > > > > >> > > > > Valete,
>> > > > > >> > > > > Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
>> > > > > >> > > >
>> > > > > >> > > >
>> > > > > >> > > > eGroups Sponsor
>> > > > > >> > > [Click Here!]
>> > > > > >> > > >
>> > > > > >> > >
>> > > > > >> > >
>> > > > > >> > >[Non-text portions of this message have been
>> > > > > removed]
>> > > > > >> > >
>> > > > > >> >
>> > > > > >> >
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > >
>> > >
>> _____________________________________________________________________________________
>>
>> > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer
>> > > download :
>> > > > > >> http://explorer.msn.com
>> > > > > >> >
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> eGroups Sponsor
>> > > > > [Click Here!]
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > eGroups Sponsor
>> > > > [Click Here!]
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > eGroups Sponsor
>> > [Click Here!]
>> > >
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>>
>>
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>>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CANDIDATES FORUM chat
From:	SyanneRose@--------
Date:	Mon, 4 Dec 2000 22:03:34 EST

Salvete Omnes et Pisci,

I must be one of the lucky ones, for me it isn't work that's keeping me from
partcipating
in what would be a great conversation to watch. But it's computer problems, I
can't seem to enter the taverna without getting booted! And I wanted to ask
all of the canidates some questions, not just Formosanus. The unfairites life
sometimes throw at us, I wish all of you a great chat then. I'll attempt to
enter, yet no one count on it.

Valete
Aeternia

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Class war
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 4 Dec 2000 22:19:44 -0500

Salvete;

Piscinius, like a wriggling worm on a hook, you twist and turn and yet never
actually do anything.

If you have an accusation to make against the Censors, or the Rogatores,
then make it! Don't hide behind innuendo and sarcasm. By cowering beind such
devices, you spread your poison but avoid responsibility. Such is not the
Roman way.

For my part, if there _is_ deliberate manipulation of the apportionment of
the Tribes and/or Centuries (as opposed to an honest mistake) I would do
everything in my power to not only remove the individuals responsible from
office, but remove them from Citizenship as well; Patrician or Plebeian.
Corruption must not be tolerated in regards to any magistrate.

So far, you have not shown that any such deliberate attempt to
disenfranchise the Plebeians has been made. Just ugly rumor-mongering and
more class warfare.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul

http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gian G Reali [mailto:piscinus@--------]
> Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 12:53 AM
> To: novaroma@--------
> Cc: ComitiaPlebisTributa@--------; nr_dignitasforum@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: Class war
>
>
> Salvete Omnes;
>
> Vedius scripsit:
> <<There seems to be a shared opinion among some individuals that one
> group of
> Citizens within Nova Roma is somehow conspiring to oppress or otherwise
> keep
> down another group. To some, this has been expressed as the Popularii
> being
> oppressed by the Optimates, or the Patricians oppressing the Plebeians.>>
>
> Respondeo:
> A very interesting notion you have expressed here, Vedius,
> for there is
> a group, mostly patricians but not all, who call themselves Optimates and
> have made such claims. It is those same Optimates who decry their
> opponents as being Populares. Who among the Plebeians call themselves
> Populares? Who is it that flings epitaphs around so freely?
>
> And what of this matter of the Plebeians being oppressed by
> patricians?
> Should I look for patrician spies lurking about in the Comitia Plebis
> chat room? Could there be some patrician offering honors and postions,
> and maybe even a Senate seat, if only some Plebeian would act as his spy,
> become the "eyes and ears" of some group of Optimates to keep watch over
> the activities of the Comitia Plebis Tributa? The mere suggestion of
> such would be regarded as influence peddling in some states, a
> prosecutable offence in most civilized nations. But of course the the
> Plebeians should not be suspiscious of any such Optimate plots should
> they Vedius? As a candidate for Consul, Vedius, were evidence brought to
> you that such an offense had been committed, what would you do about it?
>
> Surely there cannot be any suppression of Plebeians by Patricians in
> Nova Roma or we might have greater evidence that such existed. We might
> for example make note of the fact that some 40 Plebeians voted in last
> year's election, yet only five Plebeians from last year are apportioned
> to the Rural Tribes. Since you wrote the Lex Vedia Tributorum yourself,
> Vedia, I am sure you are familar with its provisions in section III that
> "No Citizen shall be removed from one tribe to be included in another,
> save those who are transferred to the urban tribes by their failure to
> vote in the annual magisterial elections." So that can only mean that
> ALL those now in the Urban Tribes could not have voted in last year's
> magisterial election, and that if only five of last year's voting
> Plebeian's are now in the Rural Tribes, then the other 35 who voted must
> have all left Nova Roma.
>
> But there can be no supiscion of Patricians oppressing Plebians by
> manipulating tribal apportionment. If that were true there must be other
> evidence of it. We might find that both Tribuni Plebis were assigned to
> one or another of the Urban Tribes. We might find the four newly
> elevated Plebeian Senators are in the Urban Tribes. We might find that
> Plebeians who stood as candidates in last year's elections were removed
> from the Rural Tribes, contrary to your Lex Vedia, and were reassigned to
> the Urban Tribes. After all if such individuals who were so involved in
> Nova Roma as to run for office, or serve in its offices, or serve as
> Provincial Praetors, then surely they would be expected to vote in the
> elections they themselves ran in. Therefor they could not be reassigned
> to Rural Tribes, except in violation of your law.
>
> And even if something of that nature had occurred, there
> are checks and
> balances in the Nova Roma system of government that would have discovered
> such an abuse. There are two Censors who oversee the apportionment.
> Censor Sulla has told me in direct response to my questions about the
> century and tribe apportionment, that he had personally reviewed all
> assignments last April. If there had been any misassignments, surely
> Sulla would have noticed it. Surely Censor Sulla would have reported
> misapportionments to his colleague. Surely both Patrician Censors would
> have corrected any such misassignments. Assuming of course there were
> evidence that such had occurred.
>
> And what of the other check on any such patrician plots against the
> Plebeians. Are there not two Tribuni Plebis to protect the interests of
> the Plebeians? Would not Tarquinius Caesar and Sergius Australicus have
> done something about any patrician effort to limit, inhibit, or otherwise
> manipulate the voting system of Nova Roma? where was Tarquinius Caesar
> when such a plot was being unfolded? Where was Sergius Australicus last
> April when Censor Sulla reviewed the apportionment? If there were any
> irregularities, if Australicus and Tarquinius had voted in last year's
> elections and now found themselves in an Urban Tribe, surely they would
> notice it? Surely they would question it? Surely they would make an
> inquirey and have it corrected? Wouldn't they?
>
> I must ask you, Vedius, if you, as Consul, were to discover such a
> misuse of authority in office by senior patrician magistrates, so as to
> manipulate the voting process in favor of one group of citizens over
> another group of citizens, what would you do about it? And if there was
> a pattern to the way individual cives had been misapportioned so that it
> could not be construed as merely accidental, what then may we expect of
> you as Consul to do to the indivdual or individuals who were responsible?
>
> And if there were such things occurring in Nova Roma, there
> would likely
> be other things of a similar nature occurring as well. It would be of
> the gravest matter to everyone in Nova Roma. No one magistrate, no one
> Comitia, nor the Senate alone should be responsible to deal with such a
> thing. It would have to be made as a collective effort. Quietly,
> civilly, by a group of individuals representing divergent interests but
> who had proven themselves capable of working with others to resolve
> problems rather than create problems.
>
> Iterum scripsit:
> <<So why, then, do some insist on pitting one group against another? Why
> do
> some seek to magnify (and indeed reverse) the differences between the
> Orders? Why do some claim oppression where none really exists?>>
>
> Respondeo:
> Indeed, Vedius, why? Why do some form a Faction and refer
> to themselves
> as Optimates? Why do they seek to so magnify differences between
> themselves and all others in Nova Roma? Cui bono, Vedius? What is to be
> gained by flinging hysterical epitaphs and making claims that others want
> to tear down the Republic? Cui bono, Vedius? Such accusations that you
> make about the claims of others, from who have you heard such claims
> made? I remind you, Vedius, of an ancient Roman proverb: "Sapiens nihil
> affirmat quod non probat."
>
> Gn. Moravius Piscinus
> Tribunus Plebis petitor
> Flamen Cerealis
> Retarius et Rogator Sodalitates Latinitates
> Rogator Sodalitas Musarum

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Subject:	[novaroma] A ponder
From:	SyanneRose@--------
Date:	Mon, 4 Dec 2000 22:22:22 EST

Salvete Omnes,

I know, last post for today, I promise! I was wondering if anyone would be
kind enough to send me transcripts of tomorrow's political chat? I know big
favor to ask,
I cannot guarantee I can be present, I could privately e-mail all or only
canidates I have questions for,t hat is if the canidates didn't mind.

Valete
Aeternia *feeling she didn't state her request right*

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] A ponder
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 4 Dec 2000 22:28:17 -0500

Salvete;

I would absolutely hope that the transcripts would be posted someplace
public (maybe even as an email here); perhaps even posted to the files
section of the novaroma email list? (No need to keep them only to
subscribers of the Dignitas list...)

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul

http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus

> -----Original Message-----
> From: SyanneRose@-------- [mailto:SyanneRose@--------]
> Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 10:22 PM
> To: NovaRoma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] A ponder
>
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> I know, last post for today, I promise! I was wondering if anyone
> would be
> kind enough to send me transcripts of tomorrow's political chat?
> I know big
> favor to ask,
> I cannot guarantee I can be present, I could privately e-mail all or only
> canidates I have questions for,t hat is if the canidates didn't mind.
>
> Valete
> Aeternia *feeling she didn't state her request right*

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Subject:	[novaroma] Consul Candidate Website - Marcus Cassius Julianus
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Mon, 4 Dec 2000 22:36:49 EST

Salvete Omnes,

My Consular campaign website is now up at:

<A HREF="http://romanrepublic.org/campaign/Cassius/">http://romanrepublic.org/campaign/Cassius/</A>

The site is still under construction, and new information will be added
shortly! :)

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Candidate for Consul

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The Amici Dignitatis Statement
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 04:47:12 +0100

M. Apollonius Formosanus M. Octavio Germanico et omnibus Quiritibus
S.P.D.

I am getting very tired of Octavius misrepresenting one out of many
of my posts as "my Manifesto". My Manifesto is the Statement of the
Amici Dignitatis (shared with others), and my Platform which I am
presenting as a series of Position Papers, of which two have been
posted to date.

When I posted the post to the Dignitas Forum List that Octavius
wrongfully, I was concerned about making sure that the suffering of
Marius was not forgotten, lost and neglected in the scramble for
office and the wealth of new challenges facing us. I do NOT wish to
publish anything to this list on Marius at this time, but in order to
defend myself from complete misinterpretation by excerpt I am forced
to post this paragraph so that people will see the whole thing and
understand what I was really saying:

"But to return to Marius: we are not really a Marian party. But we
are indebted to Marius for being the unwilling recipient of a lot of
ill will and prejudice which has been enough to serve as a wake up
call for all of Nova Roma. In some European lands it is a criminal
offence to deny the historical reality of the Holocaust. Those Jews
*were* killed, and certain individuals *were* really responsible.
Likewise we must never allow anyone here to deny or neglect the fact
that Marius was grievously mistreated by certain officials with the
tacit and later active collusion of a big majority in the then
membership of the senate. We must *never* forget those historical
facts or what they teach us about the moral character and
trustworthiness of the persons involved."

As anyone can see, there is NO comparison of the quality or
quantity of the actions of anyone in Nova Roma with those of the
Nazis. The point was not that the actions were the same, but simply
that *****it is important to remember past evils so as not to repeat
them or allow others to repeat them*****. The fact that our little
evils are *infinitely* less than those of the Third Reich does not
mean that it would be a good idea for us to forget them or allow them
to happen again.

I am also annoyed by the fact that my following words are
perpetually being misinterpreted in a malicious manner:

"To undo the harm done and provide for a better future ... we must
remove the two presently most powerful magistrates from office and
keep them out for a good long time (i.e. one consul and one censor) -
at least. We must also create a system of law and a judiciary process
to protect ordinary citizens, make the comitia full partners of the
senate in practice, and strengthen the powers of the tribunate."

To remove and keep from office is something that everyone wishes to
do to his serious political opponents. Especially when one feels that
they are dangerous and hurtful to Nova Roma because of extreme
rightest political ideology and an attitude to sexual minorities that
does not permit them in their official capacities to treat ours
justly. We can also see that they wish to do all they can to keep
*me* from office. That is the way politics naturally is, and I do not
see why I should be singled out and condemned for it.

I also wish to react to a remark found in IIRC both Australicus and
Audens (I apologise if they aren't the two), that implied that the
Edictum de Nominibus Mutandis was "settled". It is not settled by any
means. The minority directly affected is not satisfied that it has
offered what it seemed to promise, and I am similarly convinced that
it has failed to regularise the life of this minority in an
acceptable manner.

Human rights do not depend on a government's pleasure, nor even on
popular will. They are precisely the sphere of life where an
individual is given something directly and inalienably by Nature that
no other person or group has the right to take away. That something
may not be recognised at a particular point in space and time, but a
respect for human dignitas has its innate attraction, and it will
gain support and those who support it will be very persistent until
it is recognised.

I think I have made this perfectly clear. I hope that future
considerations will be directed at my Platform and not at random
posts from the past wildly misinterpreted. There is no need to rehash
that old ground ad nauseam.

Quirites, if you think that wishing to win an election and have
friends win elections so as to reduce prejudice and protect
individual citizens and minorities from unsympathetic magistrates is
wrong, then don't vote for me. But if you care what happens to other
citizens at the hands of those in power - and may happen to you if
the powerful here take a dislike to you for some unpredictable reason
- then I respectfully request your vote.

Valete!

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus << CANDIDATVS PRAETORIVS >>
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: The Amici Dignitatis Statement
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 4 Dec 2000 23:44:31 -0500

Salvete;

For the love of the Gods, Formosanus, buy another songbook. We are all sick
of this particular tune!

/Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria
/Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria
/Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria
/Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria
/Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria
/Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria
/Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria
/Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria
/Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria
/Maria Fimbria /Maria Fimbria / la la la la la

Can you say nothing else? Do you have no other message? Do your allies have
no other concern? Your myopic obsession on this topic is frightening!

I must say, even my esteemed rival for the position of Consul seems to share
your mania. Indeed, on the vaunted Amici Dignitas list, Vado posted:

> > And to all, it doesn't matter who's fault the Marian incident was.
> > It's dead and under the rug. What matters is present affairs.
>
> Present affairs include the disgusting fact that in NR individuals can be
> victimised by vindictive magistrates abusing their privileges to kick
podex
> rather than to protect and to serve. The Marius Incident can happen again.
> And again. Until we can protect all citizens from the threat of abuse of
> power, by clear judicial procedures and just laws not passed by one man on
> the entire populus.

Sulla, in excercising his Magisterial power to issue an edictum, which had
been endorsed by every other person who had held the postition of Censor,
was being "vindictive" and "disgusting"? I say to you that Vado here is
being inflammatory, and stirring up strife and fear where none need exist.

We are all in favor of setting down the procedures for legal action in the
civil realm. But the "Marius Incident" (a point to you, Vado, quite the
melodramatic name!) is a nonesuch. It was a matter that was handled within
the realm of already-existing law, according to already-existing procedure,
and within the boundaries of already-existing precident (because this same
person had asked the Censores for the change, and when the two Censores
changed, asked again, just as a child is wont to ask mommy, and then when
mommy says no, ask daddy).

I say this now; the signatores of the Amici Dignitas statement are part of a
cabal, a faction in fact if not in name, whose sole purpose is to overturn
the gender edictum. They came here-- most relatively recently-- and decided
we needed to be set straight for our own good. We were not sufficiently
Politically Correct. They ignore the fact that this is a completely vountary
association, and that it is impossible to oppress anyone if you can freely
walk out the door. The mere fact that SOMEONE... SOMEWHERE... is doing
SOMETHING they dislike... makes Nova Roma a target for their 'reforms'.

I say that Nova Roma is not about Politcal Correctness. It is not about a
streamlined 21st century system of government that happens to have a few
ancient Roman titles. Nova Roma is an attempt to recreate the Roman
Republic, warts and all, and to turn it into anything less is a betrayal of
its original intent-- can you read anything else in our Constitution? It is
not a PC playground. Let us resist this invasion, and confirm that Nova Roma
is once and for all the recreation of the Roman Republic, and not "what a
bunch of liberal intellectuals think Rome should have been."

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul

http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus

> -----Original Message-----
> From: M. Apollonius Formosanus [mailto:bvm3@--------]
> Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 10:47 PM
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: The Amici Dignitatis Statement
>
>
> M. Apollonius Formosanus M. Octavio Germanico et omnibus Quiritibus
> S.P.D.
>
> I am getting very tired of Octavius misrepresenting one out of many
> of my posts as "my Manifesto". My Manifesto is the Statement of the
> Amici Dignitatis (shared with others), and my Platform which I am
> presenting as a series of Position Papers, of which two have been
> posted to date.
>
> When I posted the post to the Dignitas Forum List that Octavius
> wrongfully, I was concerned about making sure that the suffering of
> Marius was not forgotten, lost and neglected in the scramble for
> office and the wealth of new challenges facing us. I do NOT wish to
> publish anything to this list on Marius at this time, but in order to
> defend myself from complete misinterpretation by excerpt I am forced
> to post this paragraph so that people will see the whole thing and
> understand what I was really saying:
>
> "But to return to Marius: we are not really a Marian party. But we
> are indebted to Marius for being the unwilling recipient of a lot of
> ill will and prejudice which has been enough to serve as a wake up
> call for all of Nova Roma. In some European lands it is a criminal
> offence to deny the historical reality of the Holocaust. Those Jews
> *were* killed, and certain individuals *were* really responsible.
> Likewise we must never allow anyone here to deny or neglect the fact
> that Marius was grievously mistreated by certain officials with the
> tacit and later active collusion of a big majority in the then
> membership of the senate. We must *never* forget those historical
> facts or what they teach us about the moral character and
> trustworthiness of the persons involved."
>
> As anyone can see, there is NO comparison of the quality or
> quantity of the actions of anyone in Nova Roma with those of the
> Nazis. The point was not that the actions were the same, but simply
> that *****it is important to remember past evils so as not to repeat
> them or allow others to repeat them*****. The fact that our little
> evils are *infinitely* less than those of the Third Reich does not
> mean that it would be a good idea for us to forget them or allow them
> to happen again.
>
> I am also annoyed by the fact that my following words are
> perpetually being misinterpreted in a malicious manner:
>
> "To undo the harm done and provide for a better future ... we must
> remove the two presently most powerful magistrates from office and
> keep them out for a good long time (i.e. one consul and one censor) -
> at least. We must also create a system of law and a judiciary process
> to protect ordinary citizens, make the comitia full partners of the
> senate in practice, and strengthen the powers of the tribunate."
>
> To remove and keep from office is something that everyone wishes to
> do to his serious political opponents. Especially when one feels that
> they are dangerous and hurtful to Nova Roma because of extreme
> rightest political ideology and an attitude to sexual minorities that
> does not permit them in their official capacities to treat ours
> justly. We can also see that they wish to do all they can to keep
> *me* from office. That is the way politics naturally is, and I do not
> see why I should be singled out and condemned for it.
>
> I also wish to react to a remark found in IIRC both Australicus and
> Audens (I apologise if they aren't the two), that implied that the
> Edictum de Nominibus Mutandis was "settled". It is not settled by any
> means. The minority directly affected is not satisfied that it has
> offered what it seemed to promise, and I am similarly convinced that
> it has failed to regularise the life of this minority in an
> acceptable manner.
>
> Human rights do not depend on a government's pleasure, nor even on
> popular will. They are precisely the sphere of life where an
> individual is given something directly and inalienably by Nature that
> no other person or group has the right to take away. That something
> may not be recognised at a particular point in space and time, but a
> respect for human dignitas has its innate attraction, and it will
> gain support and those who support it will be very persistent until
> it is recognised.
>
> I think I have made this perfectly clear. I hope that future
> considerations will be directed at my Platform and not at random
> posts from the past wildly misinterpreted. There is no need to rehash
> that old ground ad nauseam.
>
> Quirites, if you think that wishing to win an election and have
> friends win elections so as to reduce prejudice and protect
> individual citizens and minorities from unsympathetic magistrates is
> wrong, then don't vote for me. But if you care what happens to other
> citizens at the hands of those in power - and may happen to you if
> the powerful here take a dislike to you for some unpredictable reason
> - then I respectfully request your vote.
>
> Valete!
>
> Marcus Apollonius Formosanus << CANDIDATVS PRAETORIVS >>
> Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
> Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius
>
> ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
> Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
> The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
> Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
> ________________________________________
> Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
> (Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
> ________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The Amici Dignitatis Statement
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Dec 2000 22:19:26 -0700

Wait a minute, Formosanus. There are now THREE things.

1. The Statement of the Amici Dignitatis, which is the
statement for signing, is the (rather unanimously agreed)
innocuous statement that was originally posted to the
novaroma elist. This is the one that presents the Amici
Dignitatis as the non-partisan group of loose affiliates in
political debate. (my paraphrase)

2. YOUR Manifesto, is the post you made to the Dignitatis
list in which, among other things, you discuss Marius
Peregrinus's past woes and various and sundry other things
which have gone on to be a big headache for all concerned,
inasmuch as the non-Amici signers took THIS document as
being subscribed to by all Amici and a huge uproar ensued.
Your Manifesto is not subscribed to by most, if not all,
Amici. In fact, if this statement were the issuance of the
Amici Dignitatis, I wouldn't be one.

3. Your campaign position papers come after your
manifesto.

Let's all keep clear on what's what, since other Amici have
been scrambling all week to make sure it's clear we DON'T
subscribe to your Manifesto.

Livia Cornelia Aurelia

"M. Apollonius Formosanus" wrote:

> M. Apollonius Formosanus M. Octavio Germanico et omnibus
> Quiritibus
> S.P.D.
>
> I am getting very tired of Octavius misrepresenting
> one out of many
> of my posts as "my Manifesto". My Manifesto is the
> Statement of the
> Amici Dignitatis (shared with others), and my Platform
> which I am
> presenting as a series of Position Papers, of which two
> have been
> posted to date.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The Amici Dignitatis Statement
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Dec 2000 22:29:14 -0700

Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:

> Let us resist this invasion, and confirm that Nova Roma
> is once and for all the recreation of the Roman Republic,
> and not "what a bunch of liberal intellectuals think Rome
> should have been."

Salve Germanicus:

I'm glad you're so certain you know exactly how the Roman
Republic was and how to recreate it. Some of the rest of us
are stumbling around in the dark with incomplete histories,
many of which concerning the Republic were compiled several
hundred years after actual events, by authors drawing on
works no longer available to us, or in some cases themselves
trying to recreate the facts. All of which are 2,000 years
and more removed from our frame of reference, and subject in
most if not all cases during the intervening millenia to
copyists' errors. Followed by many of us relying on
scholarly (liberal?) translations from the Latin to our
native tongues.

I don't know.....it seems to me that the effort to recreate
the Roman Republic is by default an intellectual exercise.
Forget the liberal, forget the conservative. Isn't there
room for both?

Livia Cornelia Aurelia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The Amici Dignitatis Statement
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Dec 2000 21:38:09 -0800

>
> I don't know.....it seems to me that the effort to recreate
> the Roman Republic is by default an intellectual exercise.
> Forget the liberal, forget the conservative. Isn't there
> room for both?
>

Of course there is room for both. Until one side starts using terms like
Nazi's, Holocaust, and Evil. Especially when, I have taken great lengths to
compromise and revise controversial edicts even utilizing the suggested
changes of the opposing faction, yet they are still unhappy. Even to the
point where a Consular candidate trys to formulate popular support for
impeachement proceedings. I say here and now to all of Nova Roma. That I
have tried to compromise every step of the way what has Formosanus's faction
done?

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: CANDIDATES FORUM chat
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Dec 2000 23:06:41 -0700

If Dalmaticus is available to do this, that would be fine
with me. Between actually preparing for the elections and
meeting a deliverable schedule for my client that will have
me pulling 12-15 hour work days this whole week, I don't
think I'm up for actually organizing and moderating the
debates at this late notice.

Livia Cornelia Aurelia

Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:

> Salvete;
>
> Although some candidates running for office do hold a
> certain animosity for
> Sulla, and it is definitely better to avoid even the
> appearance of
> impropriety (even though I have the fullest confidence
> Sulla would do such a
> job impartially), perhaps one of our fine Rogatores would
> feel up to the
> challenge; they too, by law, are incapable of running for
> office this year,
> and I would trust them to be impartial if one of them
> wished to pick up the
> task of organizing a debate or debates.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Venii endorses, was Re: The Amici Dignitatis Statement
From:	Piparskegg UllRsson <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Tue, 05 Dec 2000 00:01:16 -0600

Salvete Omnes,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:

> Salvete;
>
> For the love of the Gods, Formosanus, buy another songbook. We are all
> sick
> of this particular tune!
> (excision)
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Candidate for Consul

I was going to compose a long, detailed reply to said statement, but I'm
disinterested in further re-hashing of the topic, save...

I do like and respect L. Marius, and by Jupiter, Apollo and Minerva -
declare him friend.
I think that using his case as a "cause celebré" does him no honor.

Now my endorsements, as a Cives Nova Romana...

Friendship, and feeling this a bond when other things are equal, is very
important to me.
When I believe that two candidates are equally valuable to the New City,
this is the tie breaker for me.
I wish no onus on any candidate whose name I do not mention herein, only that I did not believe you the most qualified in my opinion,
at this time.

My support for Lucius Equitius for Censor is given. He is a long time correspondant,
who has provided me with valuable information, even during his short estrangement from our nation.

I support Marcus Cassius and Flavius Vedius for Consul, as I have stated
before in this forum.

But, here in the Forum, I say, if not happily bound by ties of old
friendship,
I would vote for Nicolaus Moravious. He is a fine fellow and good Roman.

For Prætor, I will support Quintus Fabius, another gladsome tie of friendship,
and service as his occassional special projects Quæstor.

As a Patrician, I make no comment on either the Tribunate or Ædileship thereof.

Ædilis Curulis: A. Nonius Mus will be an amazingly effective Ædile!

For Quæstor: Everyone, we're still one shy though.

The 26, vote for everyone, though I will specifically support Marcus Octavius for Curatr Aranae,
Priscila Vedia for Curator Sermonis and Marcs Mucius Scævola for Rogator.

I urge the any candidates (and the Senate) for Vingintisexvir to accept any votes received as a mandate for service within the 26,
we need you.

mea sententia

==========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis, Benedicte Omnes!
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Coves, Paterfamilias Gens Ulleria
My homestead
http://www.geocities.com/piparskegg/index.html
Nova Roma website
http://www.novaroma.org/main.html

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CANDIDATES FORUM chat
From:	Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
Date:	Tue, 05 Dec 2000 08:08:16 +0100

Quiritibus Lucilla Cornelia Cinna salutem

>> A CANDIDATES FORUM
>>
>> will be held in the Forum Romanorum
>>
>> http://pluto.beseen.com/w/10275
>>
>>
>>
>> Wednesday 6 December GMT 21.00 to GMT 23.00
>
Unfortunately, I do see a problem, since I am working at that particular
time (10pm CET on a working day) so I can't just go and access the web
to visit a chat.
I may be able to drop in later that night, but please don't count on
that - I usually don't work at night, only this particular week, so I
might be very tired ...

What about a chat on weekend?

Apart from that, everybody may feel free to ask me at any time whatever
they want to know using my email CorneliaLucilla@--------
<mailto:CorneliaLucilla@-------->.

Avete atque valete

Lucilla Cornelia Cinna
scriptor magistraque artium
civis, scriba
cadidata quaestoria

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Things To Do
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" <n_moravius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 05 Dec 2000 09:27:18

Quiritibus Salutem

I'd like to add my thoughts to M. Cassius Iulianu' excellent post on the
tasks that await whoever are to be our next Consuls, and what his personal
priorities would be.

LEGAL SYSTEM AND LAWS

The citizens mentioned by Cassius as working on draft legal procedures are,
to the best of my knowledge, Consul Q. Fabius Maximus, Praetor A. Gryllus
Graecus, Senator M. Mucius Scaevola Magister and myself. There may of course
be others. I would wish a formal committee of experts in ancient Roman and
modern law set up, to whom all citizens would be free to post their
suggestions.

I agree with Cassius that there needs to be more citizen involvement in this
vital process, at all levels. Citizens, please don't be put off by the
thought that you might be too young in years or in citizenship to be taken
seriously - the essence of the matter is sometimes best seen at a distance,
while those who have been working with a thing at close quarters often lose
their perspective. Contribute!

A BILL OF RIGHTS

Cassius says that a Bill of Rights is the single most important item. I
agree. The Vedian Constitution's noble statements are really statements of
intent, and do not in themselves guarantee citizen's rights. My perception
is that some citizens, and applicant citizens, have suffered unfair
discrimination, against which the spirit of the Constitution has been no
protection. And as Cassius says, it's no good having rights if you don't
know how to invoke them.

RULES FOR LISTS AND SODALES

We are in an incredible period of growth, and as new citizens arrive so our
e-lists and sodales are multiplying - reflecting a spreading and deepening
interest in all things Roman. Template sodalis constitutions, application
forms and guidelines for e-lists and chat facilities need to be on our
central NR website, to encourage this growth and ensure high standards.

CIVIL AND CRIMINAL LAW

While again I agree with Cassius that we don't want to become a litigatious
society like the USA of Britain, we do need a legal code which clearly sets
out procedures for complaints to be brought to magistrates, and for their
investigation, presentation of evidence, convening hearings, the
constitution of courts, witness examination, defence and rights to counsel.
I would also favour an e-list courtroom for cases to be heard and tried,
which any citizen could attend just as they can in a modern, free
macronation.

As Cassius says, at present almost anybody could be considered guilty of
committing a crime by almost anybody else, as long as A objects to what he
thinks B is doing. In my opinion, we have seen examples this year of some
magistrates making themselves - and thereby NR - look ridiculous by using a
ballista to shoot at sparrows in just this way.
It does make us attractive to prospective new cives. If 100 joined NR this
month (say), maybe another 100 didn't - for reasons like this.

Cassius says such measures would help reduce friction in NR. I couldn't
agree more. The social and political machinery in NR gets dangerously
overheated at times (as are many citizens), precisely because it lacks the
lubricant of clear and precise laws to regulate public and private actions.

Citizens, we must have these laws and procedures in place on the Tabularium
before the end of next year, or we will have forfeited any claim to be a
civilised nation.

I pleadge myself to work for the furtherance of just and necessary laws -
and against any other kind - in co-operation with either of my fellow
Consular candidates as Consul, or indeed whether you elect me or
not. But as Consul, I could clearly do more for you in this respect.

In your service,

Vado

Senator, Propraetor, Consular Adviser and Consular Candidate.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Things To Do
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 05 Dec 2000 01:54:28 -0800

Nicolaus Moravius wrote:

> Quiritibus Salutem
>
> I'd like to add my thoughts to M. Cassius Iulianu' excellent post on the
> tasks that await whoever are to be our next Consuls, and what his personal
> priorities would be.
>
> LEGAL SYSTEM AND LAWS
>
> The citizens mentioned by Cassius as working on draft legal procedures are,
> to the best of my knowledge, Consul Q. Fabius Maximus, Praetor A. Gryllus
> Graecus, Senator M. Mucius Scaevola Magister and myself. There may of course
> be others. I would wish a formal committee of experts in ancient Roman and
> modern law set up, to whom all citizens would be free to post their
> suggestions.
>

Ave,

This already exists. Its in the Nova Roma laws list. Consul Q.Fabius and I were the
original members of the law committee. It was under his advice that I would attempt to
recreate the law committee. That has been completed under the NovaRomalaws groupe. I
went through and emailed every citizen in Nova Roma who has legal experience and invited
them to join the list. So there is no need to duplicate this.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

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Subject:	[novaroma] Contia??
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:19:38 +0100

Salvete Omnes!

When I read about the elections"Contia" is mentioned and promised:

"The contia are essentially voters' guides; small booklets (to be produced
in both electronic format for those with email/web access and in hard copy
for those without) that will have an overview of voting procedures, a list
of candidates for the various offices, and brief (500 words or less)
statements from each candidate. Of course, candidates may campaign on their
own using the email list, message board, and any other means of
communication, but these official statements will ensure that all
candidates get some chance to have their message heard by the voters (many
of whom may not frequent the electronic forms of communication)."

When and where wil it arrive?

"A beginner"

Ave et salve

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CANDIDATES FORUM chat
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:32:06 EST

Salve

I regret that I will not be able to participate because of other
responsibilities (which pay my bills, barely).

Vale,

Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Things To Do
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:58:28 -0500

Salve;

Other than to say this is a very well thought-out post whose sentiments I do
agree with, I did want to point out:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nicolaus Moravius [mailto:n_moravius@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 9:27 AM
>
> While again I agree with Cassius that we don't want to become a
> litigatious society like the USA of Britain,

USA of Britain? Is this a Freudian slip? ;-)

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul

http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus

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Subject:	[novaroma] I'm back.
From:	Kyrene Ariadne <kyrene@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 05:02:46 -0800 (PST)

Xairete et salvete,

Forgive the crossposting, but I wanted to take care of this email in one swoop.

For the past few months, I've been suffering with computer problems--my
computer's been crashing on an average of about four times a day, and that's on
the after work hours that I use it. I've tried taking out unnecessary apps
running in the background, cleaning out my hard drive, everything that I could
think of. But I think I finally fixed the problem, and it hasn't crashed yet
(knocks on nearby piece of wood). For those of you wondering how I've managed
to stay in touch in how little I've stayed in touch, I've been taking care of
email at work. Thankfully my new employers are pretty lenient with your
"multitasking" time and don't throw fits as long as you work and get your work
done :)

I've got a lot of email to catch up on and a lot of business to take care of.
I'd like anyone who has been trying to reach me since around August/September
or so to please send me a private email because I switched to reading
everything on web based accounts during that time as Outlook Express was a real
culprit, and hence I've lost a lot of important email that way--anything d/l by
Outlook before then was essentially considered deleted and no longer
accessible.

I apologize to everyone umpteen gazillion times over, and hope to be more
active in the future. Should my computer problems be unsolved, I'm getting a
new computer and ending the insanity once and for all.

Thanks again for your patience.

=====
* Kyrene Ariadne/Andrea Gladia Kyrinia *
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
* Hellenion: http://pagan.drak.net/hellenion *
* The Tholos: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/1527 *
* ICQ:6663573 Yahoo:KyreneAriadne AIM:Kyrene Ariadne *

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Subject:	[novaroma] What are we fighting for?
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" <n_moravius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 05 Dec 2000 13:48:40

Omnibus salutem

Oh dear. I see that Consular candidate Fl. edius Germanicus has lost his
temper again and called me a liberal intellectual.

Some of you, like Fl. Vedius Germanicus, may think that this is a terrible
insult.

Some of you, like Fl. Vedius Germanicus, may think that our new Rome has no
use for either liberalism or intellect. If this applies to you, vote for Fl.
Vedius Germanicus.

This election is certainly a fight for which bits of old Rome we want to
preserve.

Bene valete,

N. Moravius Vado

Liberal Intellectual And Proud Of It
(And as good a Roman as Fl. Vedius Germanicus)
(Though possibly not as good a Roman as M. Cassius Iulianus).
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] What are we fighting for?
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 05 Dec 2000 05:37:56 -0800

You mean vote for you if we want to deviate from the stated Mission of Nova Roma? If we
want a Nova Roma as a Modern 21st Century government with trappings of Republican Rome?
And, if even those trappings become too constricting to dump those trappings as well? If
we want a Nova Roma that caters to political correctness and all the BS that that stands
for? Thats what your saying? Just trying to understand exactly what you are "standing
for!"

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

Nicolaus Moravius wrote:

> Omnibus salutem
>
> Oh dear. I see that Consular candidate Fl. edius Germanicus has lost his
> temper again and called me a liberal intellectual.
>
> Some of you, like Fl. Vedius Germanicus, may think that this is a terrible
> insult.
>
> Some of you, like Fl. Vedius Germanicus, may think that our new Rome has no
> use for either liberalism or intellect. If this applies to you, vote for Fl.
> Vedius Germanicus.
>
> This election is certainly a fight for which bits of old Rome we want to
> preserve.
>
> Bene valete,
>
> N. Moravius Vado
>
> Liberal Intellectual And Proud Of It
> (And as good a Roman as Fl. Vedius Germanicus)
> (Though possibly not as good a Roman as M. Cassius Iulianus).
> _____________________________________________________________________________________
> Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Things To Do
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" <n_moravius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 05 Dec 2000 14:02:51

Salutem

Sulla's "Laws List" is hardly a substitute for an officially-established
panel of experts, accountable to the government, each member of which would
be tasked with a specific legal draft project, receiving contributions from
citizens.

The "Laws List" is of no more practical use as a piece of government
machinery (which it isn't) than a chocolate teapot.

Yet another instance of lack of joined-up thinking from one who all to
frequently posts before he thinks (I had to delete 5 pages of old e-mail
thread off his last one).):-(

Valete

Vado.

>From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
>To: Nicolaus Moravius <n_moravius@-------->
>CC: novaroma@--------
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Things To Do
>Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 01:54:28 -0800
>
>
>
>Nicolaus Moravius wrote:
>
> > Quiritibus Salutem
> >
> > I'd like to add my thoughts to M. Cassius Iulianu' excellent post on the
> > tasks that await whoever are to be our next Consuls, and what his
>personal
> > priorities would be.
> >
> > LEGAL SYSTEM AND LAWS
> >
> > The citizens mentioned by Cassius as working on draft legal procedures
>are,
> > to the best of my knowledge, Consul Q. Fabius Maximus, Praetor A.
>Gryllus
> > Graecus, Senator M. Mucius Scaevola Magister and myself. There may of
>course
> > be others. I would wish a formal committee of experts in ancient Roman
>and
> > modern law set up, to whom all citizens would be free to post their
> > suggestions.
> >
>
>Ave,
>
>This already exists. Its in the Nova Roma laws list. Consul Q.Fabius and
>I were the
>original members of the law committee. It was under his advice that I
>would attempt to
>recreate the law committee. That has been completed under the NovaRomalaws
>groupe. I
>went through and emailed every citizen in Nova Roma who has legal
>experience and invited
>them to join the list. So there is no need to duplicate this.
>
>Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>Censor
>

_____________________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Things To Do
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 05 Dec 2000 05:46:27 -0800

Ave,

Well regardless of your opinion. I must say that it was made at the request of Consul Q.
Fabius, which should give it some validity. Since we have already had some interesting
discussions on term limits. Hopefully it will be included in the next Senate call.

But as for your interpretative post about the law list. Wouldnt you have the same
opinion of the Amicita Dignitas list as well. Since it is no more practical use as a
piece of government machinery (which it isn't) than a chocolate teapot.

Sorry Vado, just using your very own words. ;)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Nicolaus Moravius wrote:

> Salutem
>
> Sulla's "Laws List" is hardly a substitute for an officially-established
> panel of experts, accountable to the government, each member of which would
> be tasked with a specific legal draft project, receiving contributions from
> citizens.
>
> The "Laws List" is of no more practical use as a piece of government
> machinery (which it isn't) than a chocolate teapot.
>
> Yet another instance of lack of joined-up thinking from one who all to
> frequently posts before he thinks (I had to delete 5 pages of old e-mail
> thread off his last one).):-(
>
> Valete
>
> Vado.
>
> >From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
> >To: Nicolaus Moravius <n_moravius@-------->
> >CC: novaroma@--------
> >Subject: Re: [novaroma] Things To Do
> >Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 01:54:28 -0800
> >
> >
> >
> >Nicolaus Moravius wrote:
> >
> > > Quiritibus Salutem
> > >
> > > I'd like to add my thoughts to M. Cassius Iulianu' excellent post on the
> > > tasks that await whoever are to be our next Consuls, and what his
> >personal
> > > priorities would be.
> > >
> > > LEGAL SYSTEM AND LAWS
> > >
> > > The citizens mentioned by Cassius as working on draft legal procedures
> >are,
> > > to the best of my knowledge, Consul Q. Fabius Maximus, Praetor A.
> >Gryllus
> > > Graecus, Senator M. Mucius Scaevola Magister and myself. There may of
> >course
> > > be others. I would wish a formal committee of experts in ancient Roman
> >and
> > > modern law set up, to whom all citizens would be free to post their
> > > suggestions.
> > >
> >
> >Ave,
> >
> >This already exists. Its in the Nova Roma laws list. Consul Q.Fabius and
> >I were the
> >original members of the law committee. It was under his advice that I
> >would attempt to
> >recreate the law committee. That has been completed under the NovaRomalaws
> >groupe. I
> >went through and emailed every citizen in Nova Roma who has legal
> >experience and invited
> >them to join the list. So there is no need to duplicate this.
> >
> >Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >Censor
> >
>
> _____________________________________________________________________________________
> Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Things To Do - addendum.
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 05 Dec 2000 05:47:33 -0800

>
> Yet another instance of lack of joined-up thinking from one who all to
> frequently posts before he thinks (I had to delete 5 pages of old e-mail
> thread off his last one).):-(

Oh and an addendum, I am sure that all of the members who have subscribed and contributed
to the law list will really appreciate your comments. ;)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Endorsement of Alexander Probus
From:	"Alexander I.C.Probus M." <alexanderprobus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 05 Dec 2000 14:28:22 -0000

Salvete amici Antonio Gryllo, Aulo Artori Sarmatice, my carissima
sister Aeternia et alii honorati Nova Romani!

I would like to thank you all for the encouraging words and
compliments. I will do the best to be worthy your and other Romans
confidence and trust.
That elections are not only for choosing the candidate with
appropriate personal qualities. Such personal qualities have certaily
all the candidates. I personaly will accept whatever choice of our
honourable citizens as I consider them to be capable to made the most
beneficial choice for themselvs and for our Republica too. Because
such a choice only will be the real victory for all of us in Nova
Roma. That choice may to integrate the Republic with her Citizenery
and at the same time may keep on and defend the individual rights of
all the Romans. That is how I see the real function of Tribuni Plebis.

Bene valete!

Alexander Probus

Salvete Novoromani !
>
> I also would like to say that it was with great pleasure that I've
> learned about Alexander Probus' recent senatorship and now about
his
> candidacy for Tribunus Plebis! I'm certain that the candidacy of
> Alexander is the most appropriate for the vacancy. I personally
will
> vote for him (though it seems he personally will not, thinking
> another candidate is more appropriate!), and I call everybody give
> him one's votes, as I know him for a year now, and all this time he
> proved to be a good friend, a loyal ally and a very interested and
> involved novaroman. He'd really could defend the interests and the
> rights of the People (Plebs), as he always proved in permanent
> discussions in different NR forums.
>
> Valete,
>
> A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus,
> ab Sarmatia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Things To Do - addendum.
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Tue, 05 Dec 2000 08:00:16 -0700

Actually, as a member of said list, I found Vado's comments
really funny. Given that Vado's on the Laws list, he's
certainly in a position to make them. I've found the
discussion on that list to be fruitless, and am incredibly
interested to see which of the various proposed languages
for the law are actually bundled together by Q. Fabius
Maximus to present as a law.

In short, there's no accountability or cohesion of
argumentation to the current Laws list, so we might as well
be talking about the price of chocolate there.

We have yet to see what the Dignitas list will be, but since
it's stated goal is as a forum for debate, any debate we
have there would be useful. It's sort of a Rostra, if you
will. Nothing more. The Laws list is much more ambitions,
as it's purpose has become a birthing ground for laws -- at
least on the surface.

Livia Cornelia Aurelia

Lucius Cornelius Sulla wrote:

> >
> > Yet another instance of lack of joined-up thinking from
> one who all to
> > frequently posts before he thinks (I had to delete 5
> pages of old e-mail
> > thread off his last one).):-(
>
> Oh and an addendum, I am sure that all of the members who
> have subscribed and contributed
> to the law list will really appreciate your comments. ;)
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
>
> eGroups Sponsor
[Click Here!]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Class War
From:	"Rita Reali" <ritasax@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:2:26 -0800

Salvete Quirites et Vedi

Vedius scripsit:

So far, you have not shown that any such deliberate attempt
to
disenfranchise the Plebeians has been made. Just ugly rumor-mongering
and
more class warfare.

For your edification then, Vedius, I note that in
the four Urban Tribes, 32 through 35, there have been assigned the
following Plebeians:

Gn. Tarquinius Caesar, Tribunus Plebis, Tribunus Plebis petitor

L. Sergius Australicus, Tribunus Plebis, Urbanus Praetor petitor

The four recently elevate Plebeian Conscript Patres:

M. Marcius Res, Praetor of Germania, Censor petitor

N. Moravius Vado, Praetor of Britannia, Consul petitor

A. Iulius Caesar Macedonius, Praetor of Pannonia, Tribunus Plebis
petitor

M. Octavius Germanicus, Curile Aedile, Curator Aranae petitor

Until recently Quaestor P Ullerius Venator was a
Plebeian, when he was assigned to the Urban Tribes. He too is a current
candidate for Quaestor and has been active with the Provincia Laci Magnus and
the Sodalitas coq n coq.

We can also point out in the Urban
Tribes other Plebeian candidates in last year's elections such as:

L. Anneus Laurentius

A. Claudius Lucentius Nigellus

G. Imperius

Julia Ovidia Luna

There are also the legates from Provincia
Britannia:

Augustins Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia

P. Claudius Lucentius Severus

Reviewing the Urban Tribes, as these particular
tribes are reserved only for those citizens who did not vote in the last
elections, one could get the impression that Britannia staged a boycot of the
elections last year. It would seem that they were joined by Brasil too, as
every Brazilian cives from last year are assigned to the Urban Tribes. But
you know, Vedius, that that is not true. You know that cives who were as
active as those listed above, who hold offices, who ran for office
last year, who run for office this year, are the kind of cives to vote in
elections. I would certainly suspect that they had. So I have asked
some of the cives. They did vote in the elections last year. Why are
they now assigned to the Urban Tribes?

If there was an administrative reason to
temporarily reassign cives, contrary to the Lex Vedia you wrote, then the
Censors should have completed their work by the time of this election. If there
had been an error that assigned Plebeian voters to Urban Tribes, then it should
have been discovered when Censor Sulla personally reviewed the tribal
apportionment last April, and should have had it corrected by now. Of
greatest concern to me is the fact that the Tribuni Plebis, Tarquinius and
Australicus, both of who now stand again for offices, did not recognize
that they themselves had been reassigned to Urban Tribes. Such
questions of any misapportionment of the tribes is a matter for Tribunician
review to consider. If there was a mistake the Tribuni Plebis should have
discovered it and had it corrected. If however the reapportionment was
done deliberately, for any reason, then it falls under the pervue of the Tribuni
Plebis, by the tribuni potestes coercito to bring the matter before the Comitia
Plebis Tributa.

You, Vedius, who made a personal attack on a
Pontif, who made accusations against him that you did not substantiate, you who
have by implication called into question the integrity of the procedures
Collegium Pontificum, you who first raised issues and spurious accusations
on this list, who prefers demogoguic scare tactics of accusing others of
attacking *your* Constitution, cannot take a moment to consider what happens in
the voting system you created. And even now, as you sit in the Senate,
cannot see what any of the Pini di Roma atop the colle that encircle the Forum
would be able judge for themselves.

Valete

Gn. Moravius Piscinus

Tribunus Plebis petitor

Flamen Cerealis

piscinus@--------

http://www.diocletian.de/elect/piscinus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Class War
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 09:17:54 -0600 (CST)

Salve Gnae Moravi,

> The four recently elevate Plebeian Conscript Patres:
> M. Octavius Germanicus, Curile Aedile, Curator Aranae petitor

I am a patrician.

I did not vote in the 12/99 election (missed the deadline by one
day), thus my assignment to an urban tribe is correct and proper.

Tribal assignment has nothing to do with patrician/plebeian status.

> If there was an administrative reason to
> temporarily reassign cives, contrary to the Lex Vedia you wrote, then the
> Censors should have completed their work by the time of this election.

The Censors have had quite a lot to do. However, now that they have
been aware of this problem, they and I have made tribal reassignment
a priority. I am awaiting a list of those voter codes used in the
December 1999 elections; upon receiving it, all of those who voted
will be transferred to rural tribes - hopefully today, before the
election starts.

Last night, 34 new citizens who had been recently approved were
placed in rural tribes. They were distributed into the smaller
rural tribes so as to equalize the tribe size; the smallest tribes
now have nine members.

I thank you for pointing out that some tribal assignments were
in error, but do wish that you had done it a few weeks ago so
that we would have been able to fix it then.

Vale, Octavius.

---
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: The Amici Dignitatis Statement
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:35:53 US/Central

T Labienus Flavio Vedio S P D

> I say this now; the signatores of the Amici Dignitas statement are part of
> a cabal, a faction in fact if not in name, whose sole purpose is to
> overturn the gender edictum. They came here-- most relatively recently-- and
> decided we needed to be set straight for our own good. We were not
> sufficiently Politically Correct.

I say this now; this particular signatory of the Amici Dignitatis statement is
nothing of the sort. For starters, the gender edictum has already been
overturned, as the censores chose to make it defunct when they issued the
edictum on name changes. Trying to overturn it would be a bit like trying to
freeze ice.

That said, it is true that I don't like--not "hate," not "find evil,"
simply "don't like"--the Edictum de Nominibus Mutandis (EdNM). It makes a
legal distinction between the sexes, which I do not believe laws should do in a
state that claims to be "updating some of the more backwards views of our
illustrious ancestors," and whose constitution deliberately notes that it is
not to be taken to imply any "disparity between genders before the law." It
is for that reason, as well as the manner in which precedent has been used in
Nova Roma's government to date, that I authored paragraph V of the EdNM.

However, it does seem that the majority of Nova Roma's people do not mind the
edictum. Also, I recognize the degree to which my assertion that it borders
upon being unconstitutional is arguable. Therefore, I see no reason to bend my
every effort toward trying to get rid of it.

> I say that Nova Roma is not about Politcal Correctness. It is not about a
> streamlined 21st century system of government that happens to have a few
> ancient Roman titles. Nova Roma is an attempt to recreate the Roman
> Republic, warts and all, and to turn it into anything less is a betrayal
> of its original intent-- can you read anything else in our Constitution? It
> is not a PC playground. Let us resist this invasion, and confirm that Nova
> Roma is once and for all the recreation of the Roman Republic, and not
> "what a bunch of liberal intellectuals think Rome should have been."

Ah, it is time for me to sing my own favorite refrain. Shall we then repress
women, reinstate slavery, reinstitute animal sacrifice, et cetera? Of course
not. We are in the process of a dialogue about what to keep of the old and
what to include of the new. This is reasonable and natural, and is a major
sign of Nova Roma's vitality.

Valete

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The Amici Dignitatis Statement
From:	"Bradius V. Maurus III" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:47:47 -0500

Salve Livia!

My whole point was that what others have mislabelled my "manifesto" is
simply a casual posting, and my serious "manifesto-like utterances" are
in fact those of the Statement and my Position Papers. Unfortunately,
the presumably deliberate misinterpretation of my mention of Naziism
was something too damaging to simply ignore (as I would have preferred
to do) and only showing what it meant in context was a possible means of
countering this effectively.

I am trying to do what you are (I think): downplay this for the time
being and concentrate on other things. I never implied that my casual
post was anyone's view but my own - although I certainly commend it to
everyone and stand squarely behind it.

I say there are two things of importance in my candidature: (1) the
Statement (which all Amici share) and (2) My Platform in the form of a
series of Position Papers. If there is anything that constitutes my
"manifesto" it is those things together. A casual post expressing my
personal opinions on some matters of importance is *not* a "manifesto",
and that terminology is to be attributed to our enemies, not to me,
inasmuch as they are trying to blow it out of proportion. I would
therefore appreciate it if you did not fall into their trap and support
their attempts to blow it out of proportion (and in their case to
distort it). It is *not* "a third thing", but simply one among dozens of
e-mails and postings in which I have expressed diverse opinions.

We all share the Statement, and I think that is what we all should
emphasise. I do not expect others to share even my Platform, let alone
my random comments. (Although my random comments are valid and
important - and I think it obvious that we *are* acting because of the
moral crisis in Nova Roma brought about by the abuse of power, and that
we do not condone the harassment of any member of any minority group,
sexual or otherwise. I believe that you believe in all those things to
judge by your words, and that was the meaning of the post so
mistreated.)

But I would love to drop it, as you would, and concentrate on other
things.

Vale!

M. Apollonius Formosanus
Candidate for Praetor Urbanus

>
>
><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
><html>
>Wait a minute, Formosanus. There are now THREE things.
>1. The Statement of the Amici Dignitatis, which is the statement
>for signing, is the (rather unanimously agreed) innocuous statement
that
>was originally posted to the novaroma elist. This is the one that
>presents the Amici Dignitatis as the non-partisan group of loose
affiliates
>in political debate. (my paraphrase)
>2. YOUR Manifesto, is the post you made to the Dignitatis list
>in which, among other things, you discuss Marius Peregrinus's past woes
>and various and sundry other things which have gone on to be a big
headache
>for all concerned, inasmuch as the non-Amici signers took THIS document
>as being subscribed to by all Amici and a huge uproar ensued. Your
>Manifesto is not subscribed to by most, if not all, Amici. In fact,
>if this statement were the issuance of the Amici Dignitatis, I wouldn't
>be one.
>3. Your campaign position papers come after your manifesto.
>Let's all keep clear on what's what, since other Amici have been
scrambling
>all week to make sure it's clear we DON'T subscribe to your Manifesto.
>Livia Cornelia Aurelia
> 
>"M. Apollonius Formosanus" wrote:
><blockquote TYPE=CITE><tt>M. Apollonius Formosanus M. Octavio Germanico
>et omnibus Quiritibus</tt>
> <tt>S.P.D.</tt>
><tt> I am getting very tired of Octavius
>misrepresenting one out of many</tt>
> <tt>of my posts as "my Manifesto". My Manifesto is the Statement of
>the</tt>
> <tt>Amici Dignitatis (shared with others), and my Platform which I
>am</tt>
> <tt>presenting as a series of Position Papers, of which two have
been</tt>
> <tt>posted to date.</tt>
> </blockquote>
></html>
>
>
>
>

-----------------------------------------------------
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The Amici Dignitatis Statement
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:04:08 -0600 (CST)

Salve Marce Apolloni,

> My whole point was that what others have mislabelled my "manifesto" is
> simply a casual posting,

You are apparently unaware of the power of your words. You posted,
in a public forum, that you intend to "remove" from office a
Censor and a Consul, and then you invoked the spectre of Naziism.
How could you *not* expect the friends of Sulla and Fabius to be
outraged at this "casual" posting? That casual posting was far
more revealing of your intent than the innocuous and inoffensive
statement of the Amici.

> Unfortunately, the presumably deliberate misinterpretation
> of my mention of Naziism was something too damaging to simply ignore

There was no misinterpretation. You mentioned the Holocaust, an event
completely irrelevant to any of our current affairs here, in order
to use the emotional impact of that crime against your own
opponents. This rhetorical tactic is extremely offensive to the
memories of its victims.

> If there is anything that constitutes my "manifesto" it is those
> things together. A casual post expressing my personal opinions on
> some matters of importance is *not* a "manifesto",

Your post may have been casual, but it reveals far more of your
character - and your intentions - than the Dignitas statement or
any of your later statements.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A ponder
From:	SyanneRose@--------
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:36:44 EST

Salve Germanicus,

That sounds even better! I had thought about this late last night, didn't
have the chance to post it. I am glad you shared the same thoughts.

Vale
Aeternia

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: The Amici Dignitatis Statement
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 13:36:41 -0200 (BRST)

On Tue, 5 Dec 2000 labienus@-------- wrote:

> T Labienus Flavio Vedio S P D
>
> > I say this now; the signatores of the Amici Dignitas statement are part of
> > a cabal, a faction in fact if not in name, whose sole purpose is to
> > overturn the gender edictum. They came here-- most relatively recently-- and
> > decided we needed to be set straight for our own good. We were not
> > sufficiently Politically Correct.
>
> I say this now; this particular signatory of the Amici Dignitatis statement is
> nothing of the sort. For starters, the gender edictum has already been
> overturned, as the censores chose to make it defunct when they issued the
> edictum on name changes. Trying to overturn it would be a bit like trying to
> freeze ice.
>
> That said, it is true that I don't like--not "hate," not "find evil,"
> simply "don't like"--the Edictum de Nominibus Mutandis (EdNM). It makes a
> legal distinction between the sexes, which I do not believe laws should do in a
> state that claims to be "updating some of the more backwards views of our
> illustrious ancestors," and whose constitution deliberately notes that it is
> not to be taken to imply any "disparity between genders before the law." It
> is for that reason, as well as the manner in which precedent has been used in
> Nova Roma's government to date, that I authored paragraph V of the EdNM.
>
> However, it does seem that the majority of Nova Roma's people do not mind the
> edictum. Also, I recognize the degree to which my assertion that it borders
> upon being unconstitutional is arguable. Therefore, I see no reason to bend my
> every effort toward trying to get rid of it.
>
> > I say that Nova Roma is not about Politcal Correctness. It is not about a
> > streamlined 21st century system of government that happens to have a few
> > ancient Roman titles. Nova Roma is an attempt to recreate the Roman
> > Republic, warts and all, and to turn it into anything less is a betrayal
> > of its original intent-- can you read anything else in our Constitution? It
> > is not a PC playground. Let us resist this invasion, and confirm that Nova
> > Roma is once and for all the recreation of the Roman Republic, and not
> > "what a bunch of liberal intellectuals think Rome should have been."
>
> Ah, it is time for me to sing my own favorite refrain. Shall we then repress
> women, reinstate slavery, reinstitute animal sacrifice, et cetera? Of course
> not. We are in the process of a dialogue about what to keep of the old and
> what to include of the new. This is reasonable and natural, and is a major
> sign of Nova Roma's vitality.

Why not for the animal sacrifice: remember after the sacrifice they were
eaten, only the smell was for the gods (or the blood for the lower
divinities), the meat was eaten in those civic celebrations.

Michel.

>
> Valete
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Pr. Michel Loos | Phone: 55 11 818 3810 p. 216
Inst. de Quimica USP | Fax: 55 11 815 5579
PO Box 26077 05599-970 São Paulo, S SP
Brazil

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] What are we fighting for?
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" <n_moravius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 05 Dec 2000 18:46:28

Salvete

I will draw a deep breath and explain to the Senior Censor that specifying
the number of lictors every magistrate is to have, acquiring an army of
lictores curiata and then wondering what to do with them, having voting
centuries with only 2 people in... these are 'trappings'. These are what, in
NR reconstructionist terms, constitute 'political correctness'. On the other
hand...

A comitia Plebis that worked because we had a greater number of Tribunes
closer to that of old Rome, that's really core Roman stuff. But I really do
wonder sometimes whether you - or Germanicus - really understands the
difference.

Valete

Vado.

>From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
>To: Nicolaus Moravius <n_moravius@-------->
>CC: novaroma@--------
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] What are we fighting for?
>Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 05:37:56 -0800
>
>You mean vote for you if we want to deviate from the stated Mission of Nova
>Roma? If we
>want a Nova Roma as a Modern 21st Century government with trappings of
>Republican Rome?
>And, if even those trappings become too constricting to dump those
>trappings as well? If
>we want a Nova Roma that caters to political correctness and all the BS
>that that stands
>for? Thats what your saying? Just trying to understand exactly what you
>are "standing
>for!"
>
>Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>Censor
>
>
>Nicolaus Moravius wrote:
>
> > Omnibus salutem
> >
> > Oh dear. I see that Consular candidate Fl. edius Germanicus has lost his
> > temper again and called me a liberal intellectual.
> >
> > Some of you, like Fl. Vedius Germanicus, may think that this is a
>terrible
> > insult.
> >
> > Some of you, like Fl. Vedius Germanicus, may think that our new Rome has
>no
> > use for either liberalism or intellect. If this applies to you, vote for
>Fl.
> > Vedius Germanicus.
> >
> > This election is certainly a fight for which bits of old Rome we want to
> > preserve.
> >
> > Bene valete,
> >
> > N. Moravius Vado
> >
> > Liberal Intellectual And Proud Of It
> > (And as good a Roman as Fl. Vedius Germanicus)
> > (Though possibly not as good a Roman as M. Cassius Iulianus).
> >
>_____________________________________________________________________________________
> > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
>http://explorer.msn.com
> >
>

_____________________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Things To Do
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 13:05:23 -0600 (CST)

Salve Nicolae Moravi,

> Sulla's "Laws List" is hardly a substitute for an officially-established
> panel of experts, accountable to the government, each member of which would
> be tasked with a specific legal draft project, receiving contributions from
> citizens.

No, but it does serve as a valuable tool for locating and identifying
the panel of experts - those who have demonstrated on that informal
mailing list that they posess the intellect and the education to
serve in that capacity.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma

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Subject:	[novaroma] From the Senior Consul -No Curule Aedile...
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:35:01 EST

Salvete citizens of Rome.

I'm disappointed that none of you have seen fit to run for the Curule Adeilii.
Perhaps because the duties are so uncertain. Believe me, if there is someone
in the office next year, we will find something for you to do. Please
consider standing for this position. I started out as a Curule Aedile. I
found it to be a rewarding and challenging office. Think on this.
Valete!
Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Romanitas et Dignitas
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 20:33:47 +0100

Salvete omnes,

I sincerely hope this is not going to be Y.S.M.I.P.R. (Yet Some More
Ineffective Political Rambling), but I do have a few things to say which may
concern anyone here, and in response to various postings made here.

1. If someone thinks something is more Roman than another thing, PROVE so.
Don't just say it because you have some authority.
2. Although comments on proposals, such as my pater's two Papers, are
generally good, desist from making unconstructive remarks. Propose something
of your own, rather than saying "this is bad", or "we don't like you", or
rehashing quotes totally ripped out of their context. Anyone can see that
this is tarring a fellow candidate, and it won't do your reputation any
good, unless you have solid PROOF that what you are saying is TRUE.
3. Don't bash anything you don't know of, or you hardly know of. First
examine, without bearing in mind if the person who wrote something is your
friend or not. The value of the writings are largely intrinsic, unless the
writer of the posting in casu is known to be a liar. Even if the writer is a
liar, you need PROOF.
4. It's not up to anyone to determine which cives have Romanitas, and which
do not. If you think one is not, give REASONS. Being an "intellectual
liberal" or a "mere scholar" is far from a valid premise.
5. People see through attempts at masqueing alliances and vendettas. If you
masque them, you're insulting their intelligence. Or you're giving the wrong
impression. It's up to you!
6. Leave sarcasm or heavy emotions at home if you want to enter a reasonable
debate.

Valete bene!
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
<< PETITOR AEDILIS PLEBIS >>
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
--**--
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--**--
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--**--

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Polly Ticks, or Who threw the first bomb?
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 20:37:34 +0100

Salve Muci Scaevola,

> The passages from Formosanus' proposed manifesto for Amici Dignitatis
which
> have been quoted are provocative and OTT. Nonetheless, I would ask
> Citizens, Senators and Magistrates to remember what they are a response
to,
> in the events of the past year:
>
> (1) The original Edict of Sulla on gender and names was clearly illiberal
> in its politics, and was defended by arguments of a far-rightist
character.
> It was manifestly unnnecessary legislation directed against an individual
> and to make a political point. Though the amended version contains some
> valuable other matter, it still contains unncessary gender material.
>
> (2) The tribunician veto offered by Australicus was blocked by his
> colleague. The effect of this blocking action has been to deny the people
> the opportunity to vote on this matter, since the author and his
supporters
> have to this day not seen fit to put legislation before the Comitia.
>
> (3) Several senior magistrates have defended this course of action, which
> excludes the democratic element in the Constitution - all the more since
> Sulla is not offering himself for election this year - on the grounds that
> NR is a "Republic, not a Democracy". Defence of the mixed constitution
> against ultra-democracy from these magistrates now sounds hollow in the
> extreme, since they have not permitted the democratic ELEMENT in the
> Constitution to operate in this matter.
>
> (4) Festus carried on an agitation against the Religio, and Sulla in
> response to criticisms of this conduct of Festus' acted as Festus'
> character witness. Festus subsequently introduced on the main list
> propaganda for a far-right nut group.
>
> (5) The Senate has,in the matter of the "reprimand" to Fimbria, improperly
> usurped a judicial power, and has conducted itself in this matter without
> regard to the elementary principles of due process and natural justice.
>
> I put it to you as a background to these matters that (a) both Asatru, and
> Hellenic pagan reconstructionism in Greece, are divided between
neo-fascist
> groups and their opponents; and (b) "republican, not democratic" has a
> specific and specifically American modern political meaning.
>
> In other words, IMO Sulla and his supporters threw the first bombs in this
> discussion, and have conducted themselves in a manner which gives those
who
> disagree reasonable grounds to suppose that NR might be evolving into a
> far-right group or front. I think, therefore that while "Dignitas" is an
> over-reaction, the sitting magistrates have got a good deal of explaining
> to do if they are to dispel that suspicion.
>
> Valete,
>
> M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

I am in full agreement. Usually I find posting such agreements unnecessary
and list-cluttering, but I felt the urge to say this :-). Amen.

Vale bene,
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
<< PETITOR AEDILIS PLEBIS >>
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
--**--
There are no bad guys. Just disturbed guys.
--**--
Novaromain? Parlez-vous français? Cliquez ici!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_GalliaBelgicaF
Nieuwromein? Spreekt u Nederlands? Klik hier!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_BelgicaBataviaD
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--**--

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Romanitas et Dignitas
From:	SyanneRose@--------
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:42:12 EST

Salvete Draco et Omnes,

These were really good points that were made, I won't deny that. Forgive me
on my part, I questioned your Pater's papers, not because he is evil or I
don't like him. I find him to be very intelligent, I just don't agree with
everything he says. I am a concerned voter and he asking not only me but
fellow citizens of Nova Roma to vote for him in a important office. I, and,
just my personal opinion only, I feel he should be questioned in a positive
way and not negative.

Valete
Aeternia

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: From the Senior Consul -No Curule Aedile...
From:	Odysseus49@--------
Date:	Tue, 05 Dec 2000 20:23:28 -0000

Salve Consul and cives,

I saw this message, and thought. "ah-ha!"

I am a very new citizen of Nova Roma.

I wish to stand for election as Curule Aedile.

I have a thirst to serve Nova Roma.

After leaving school with good grades, I immediately went and asked
my local corporate entertainment company (Having always wanted to
help other people enjoy themselves!) for a job. I have risen through
the ranks to senior marshal, and have been working for them for eight
years. I don't like to get stuck down to one job.... ;-)

Bene vale,
Titus Sertorius Albinus.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Explain Myself
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 15:34:51 -0500 (EST)

Salvete, Citizens;

In spite of the fact that Senator Magister is a Colleague , I must
disagree with him that as a "sitting Magistrate" I have much to explain.
The only explaination that I believe I need to offer is that Senator
Magister disagrees with my decisions, as I disagree with many of his
assertions.

However, having disagreements is a very large part of the Senate debates
and discussions just as it is on this main List. If anyone feels that I
have something to explain, then make a formal charge, and let us
determine just what the real agenda is. This bashing about, thrashing
disagreement with disagreement is not going to do much good. I have
kept my disagreements quiet for the most part, because unless, I or my
post is challenged. others have the right tio their opinions. I am
trying very hard to have some meaningful discussions, one on one with
those who have different views than I have, but these constant negative
comments because you disagree with someone's standing is really not very
productive.

I have disagreed greatly with many of my colleagues, on given items, but
when the majority has given their views, it is time to go on. I had my
chance to be heard as a Mnority voice. What possible use would my
contiuing too complain do for anyone? If you have a better way, idea,
method, etc. bring it before the Senate or demand it be brought before
the Comitus now that it can be done. As Consul, I have seen no
additional Lex's submitted even though the deadline is approaching. I
have one Lex from Citizen Draco that we are discussing, but since I have
had three last minute demands upon my time within the week from last
minute NR reqirements I have not been able to respond fully, although I
did provide a small aspect which I think may be included in the proposed
Lex at a later time. Outside of that, all I have heard is disagreement
and complaint, instead of proposal and request.

Is it that hard to suppose that others have the intelligence to take an
action or actions opposed to your views? I refer you once again to the
Roman Virtues. All of them apply, not just one or two!!

Valete, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: From the Senior Consul -No Curule Aedile...
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:25:55 -0600

5 Dec 2000

Salve All

I support Titus Sertorius Albinus in his quest for the position of Curule
Aedile, and encourage others to thank Titus for filling this important
position!

Vale

Quintus Sertorius

----- Original Message -----
From: <Odysseus49@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 2:23 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: From the Senior Consul -No Curule Aedile...

> Salve Consul and cives,
>
> I saw this message, and thought. "ah-ha!"
>
> I am a very new citizen of Nova Roma.
>
> I wish to stand for election as Curule Aedile.
>
> I have a thirst to serve Nova Roma.
>
> After leaving school with good grades, I immediately went and asked
> my local corporate entertainment company (Having always wanted to
> help other people enjoy themselves!) for a job. I have risen through
> the ranks to senior marshal, and have been working for them for eight
> years. I don't like to get stuck down to one job.... ;-)
>
> Bene vale,
> Titus Sertorius Albinus.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Class Conlfict
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" <n_moravius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 05 Dec 2000 17:59:55

Salutem

Since Germanicus introduced the subject, I thought I'd offer my views on the
Class Struggle in Nova Roma:

I see two classes of people in NR, and two only:

There are those who, when in office, challenge their critics by telling them
that if they don't like something they should get elected to office
themselves - then, when their critics do try to get elected, they tell the
voters not to vote for them because they are:

1. Inexperienced
2. Too young
3. Politically correct
4. Liberal Intellectuals
5. Rabid revolutionaries
6. Greeks
7. Trying to get things done as they would wish them done.

These folk (who account for less than 5 per cent of Nova Roma's population
but currently around 50 per cent of its public e-mails), when they feel
threatened, wrap themselves up in a big toga of rank and dignitas with the
broad purple stripe showing, puffing up like very big frogs in what is,
after all, still a very little pond (and likely to remain so when those with
different ideas are treated like this).

Then there is the rest of us - whether plebeian, equestrian, patrician,
senator or magistrate - who don't. I will be voting with and for the
majority.

Valete,

Vado.

_____________________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Class Conlfict
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 15:05:11 -0600 (CST)

Salve,

> Then there is the rest of us - whether plebeian, equestrian, patrician,
> senator or magistrate - who don't. I will be voting with and for the
> majority.

I see yet another small group of less than five percent -- those who
are obsessed with overturning an edict that was arrived at as a
compromise after a long period of debate, and who are absolutely
opposed to any sort of compromise on this issue. I see a small group
of less than five percent who seek to divide the populace by
inventing imagined conspiracies of patricians oppressing
plebeians, or "optimates" oppressing "populares" (aka "dignitas").

I see a small group of people who falsely claim to be a "majority"
even though they are but a mere handful.

Vale, Octavius.

---
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma

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Subject:	[novaroma] Edictum Propraetoris Galliae
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?WWFubiBRdely6Q==?= <yquere@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:23:17 +0100

IANUS QUERIUS ARMORICUS LUTECIO, PROPRAETOR GALLIAE, EX AUTORITATE SUA.

EDICTUM PROPRAETORIS GALLIAE for the creation of a Gaul website.
As a first step towards making Provincia Gallia a wealthy and organized province, it has been decided to create a website dedicated to the Province and linked with the main site of Nova Roma as well as other provincial sites with their permission.

This site is mainly aiming at :
I.- Providing interest towards Nova Roma for Gaul web-visitors and would-be Nova Roman citizens.
II.- Presenting Provincia Gallia History from early ages to nowadays in connection with Roman History.
III.- Introducing Gaul citizens of the Province
IV.- Making contact easier through a forum of discussion, called "NR Gallia Taverna".
V.-This site will be multi-lingual : Deutsh, French and English

Therefore, I appoint Quintus Apollonius Flaccus, Gaul Citizen of Nova Roma, as Gaulus Retiarus (id est webmaster of the Gaul net, for a retiarus is a master at the net), in order to build and administrate this site in cooperation with the Propraetor and the Legati Galliae Australis et Borealis.

FIAT !

I. Querius Armoricus Lutecio
Propraetor Provinciae Galliae

Facto in Lutecia (5-12-2000)

--------FRENCH TRANSLATION - TRADUCTION RANCAISE--------

EDICTUM PROPRAETORIS GALLIAE portant création d'un site web gaulois.

Comme premier pas vers une Province de Gaule prospère et organisée, il a été décidé de créer un site dédié à la Province et relié au site principal de Nova Roma ainsi qu'au autres sites provinciaux sous réserve de leur autorisation.

Ce site a pour objectifs principaux:
I.- De susciter l'intérêt pour Nova Roma chez des visiteurs du net peut-être futurs citoyens de Nova Roma.
II.- De présenter l'Histoire de la Province de Gaule à travers les âges jusqu'à nos jours en lien avec l'Histoire Romaine.
III.- Présenter les citoyens gaulois
IV.- Rendre les contacts plus aisés via un forum de discussion baptisé "NR Gallia Taverna"
V.- Ce site sera multi-lingue: Néerlandais, Français et Anglais

Pour ce faire, je nomme Quintus Apollonius Flaccus, citoyen gaulois de Nova Roma au poste de Gaulus Retiarus (Retiaire gaulois, c'est à dire webmaster du net gaulois, car c'est là l'arme du rétiaire) afin de construire et d'administrer ce site en collaboration avec le Propraetor et les Legati Galliae Australis et Borealis.

FIAT !

I. Querius Armoricus Lutecio
Propraetor Provinciae Galliae

Facto in Lutecia (5-12-2000)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Class War
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 05 Dec 2000 13:12:00 -0800

Ave,

I assigned people to the Tribes based upon the list I received from T. Labienus
Fortunatus. So if you have problems with that, I suggest you contact last year's
Rogators, C. Marius Merullus and T. Labienus Fortunatus. I followed the list I
received and LEGALLY assigend them.

What is amazing to me, is that I assigned people to the tribes back in April, and
now, we are hearing this. The only person who came to me wanting to be reassigned
is M. Marcius Rex. I told him the same thing, that I am working on a list I got
from the Rogatores. So your attempt at creating a conspiracy falls short again, Gn.
Moravius.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

Rita Reali wrote:

> Salvete Quirites et Vedi
>
>
>
> Vedius scripsit:
>
> So far, you have not shown that any such deliberate attempt
> to
> disenfranchise the Plebeians has been made. Just ugly rumor-mongering
> and
> more class warfare.
>
>
>
> For your edification then, Vedius, I note that in
> the four Urban Tribes, 32 through 35, there have been assigned the
> following Plebeians:
>
>
>
> Gn. Tarquinius Caesar, Tribunus Plebis, Tribunus Plebis petitor
>
> L. Sergius Australicus, Tribunus Plebis, Urbanus Praetor petitor
>
>
>
> The four recently elevate Plebeian Conscript Patres:
>
>
>
> M. Marcius Res, Praetor of Germania, Censor petitor
>
> N. Moravius Vado, Praetor of Britannia, Consul petitor
>
> A. Iulius Caesar Macedonius, Praetor of Pannonia, Tribunus Plebis
> petitor
>
> M. Octavius Germanicus, Curile Aedile, Curator Aranae petitor
>
>
>
> Until recently Quaestor P Ullerius Venator was a
> Plebeian, when he was assigned to the Urban Tribes. He too is a current
> candidate for Quaestor and has been active with the Provincia Laci Magnus and
> the Sodalitas coq n coq.
>
>
>
> We can also point out in the Urban
> Tribes other Plebeian candidates in last year's elections such as:
>
>
>
> L. Anneus Laurentius
>
> A. Claudius Lucentius Nigellus
>
> G. Imperius
>
> Julia Ovidia Luna
>
>
>
> There are also the legates from Provincia
> Britannia:
>
>
>
> Augustins Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia
>
> P. Claudius Lucentius Severus
>
>
>
> Reviewing the Urban Tribes, as these particular
> tribes are reserved only for those citizens who did not vote in the last
> elections, one could get the impression that Britannia staged a boycot of the
> elections last year. It would seem that they were joined by Brasil too, as
> every Brazilian cives from last year are assigned to the Urban Tribes. But
> you know, Vedius, that that is not true. You know that cives who were as
> active as those listed above, who hold offices, who ran for office
> last year, who run for office this year, are the kind of cives to vote in
> elections. I would certainly suspect that they had. So I have asked
> some of the cives. They did vote in the elections last year. Why are
> they now assigned to the Urban Tribes?
>
>
>
> If there was an administrative reason to
> temporarily reassign cives, contrary to the Lex Vedia you wrote, then the
> Censors should have completed their work by the time of this election. If there
> had been an error that assigned Plebeian voters to Urban Tribes, then it should
> have been discovered when Censor Sulla personally reviewed the tribal
> apportionment last April, and should have had it corrected by now. Of
> greatest concern to me is the fact that the Tribuni Plebis, Tarquinius and
> Australicus, both of who now stand again for offices, did not recognize
> that they themselves had been reassigned to Urban Tribes. Such
> questions of any misapportionment of the tribes is a matter for Tribunician
> review to consider. If there was a mistake the Tribuni Plebis should have
> discovered it and had it corrected. If however the reapportionment was
> done deliberately, for any reason, then it falls under the pervue of the Tribuni
> Plebis, by the tribuni potestes coercito to bring the matter before the Comitia
> Plebis Tributa.
>
>
>
> You, Vedius, who made a personal attack on a
> Pontif, who made accusations against him that you did not substantiate, you who
> have by implication called into question the integrity of the procedures
> Collegium Pontificum, you who first raised issues and spurious accusations
> on this list, who prefers demogoguic scare tactics of accusing others of
> attacking *your* Constitution, cannot take a moment to consider what happens in
> the voting system you created. And even now, as you sit in the Senate,
> cannot see what any of the Pini di Roma atop the colle that encircle the Forum
> would be able judge for themselves.
>
>
>
> Valete
>
>
>
> Gn. Moravius Piscinus
>
> Tribunus Plebis petitor
>
> Flamen Cerealis
>
>
>
> piscinus@--------
>
> http://www.diocletian.de/elect/piscinus
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Things To Do
From:	"M. Papirius Justus" <papirius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 05 Dec 2000 17:48:24 -0500

At 09:02 AM 05/12/2000, Nicolaus Moravius wrote:
Sulla's "Laws List" is hardly a substitute for an officially-established
panel of experts, accountable to the government, each member of which would
be tasked with a specific legal draft project, receiving contributions from
citizens.

Respondeo:

As one who has for the past while been a lurker here and am currently
lurking on the laws list, I can't help but wonder about the 'novaromanitas'
of some of the thinking here and on that list as well. This whole notion
that the 'laws list' has to be somehow 'accountable' is so utterly foreign
to Roman, Nova and other wise, thinking as to be ridiculous. The body that
*makes* the laws is and always should be the senate. For the most part,
their laws are 'responsive' in the sense that they should be the sorts of
laws which are made when there is an actual need for a law to be made and I
think it is salutary to note that there is probably more legislation passed
in, say, the province of Ontario in a given year than there would have been
in 1.5 millennia of Roman history. Outside of that, law is/should be
essentially the product of juristic and/or judicial interpretation of the
praetor's edict. The laws list should be functioning as a sort of joint
consilium available to magistrates and/or the senate when they feel a need
to consult those who are learned in the law (even though they themselves
might be).

Personally, I don't see why we cannot begin with the known Corpus Iuris
Civilis and simply adapt it to our needs taking into account the positive
and negative changes in our respective societies. Eliminate/degenderify
most of it and we'll have a perfectly fine legal code. Then install a
judicial system based on assignation of judges and a somewhat more flexible
formulary system than prevailed in the late Republic and that's that.

mpj

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Subject:	[novaroma] To Octavius, re: Class War
From:	Gian G Reali <piscinus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 18:07:19 -0800

Salvete Octavi et alii

My apologies if by finding your name included among the Conscripti
Patres on my list that you should in any way have become offended or
embarrassed. I make the same apology to all others on that list.

Your inclusion on my list was to point out how certain notable cives
appear in the Urban Tribes. You and the others were placed on the list
because you are now public officials, and because you were or are now
candidates for public offices. I did not include some others, notably a
Senator who has resigned, and a Patrician provincial Praetor who is not
running for office, nor had he ran last year. I understand that you
were merely pointing out discrepancies in the way I presented the list,
and not that you took offense to possibly being misconstrued a Plebeian.
I should also point out that Venator, who also appeared on my list, is
now a Patrician, although he was a Plebeian at the time of his assignment
to the Urban Tribes. And I do thank you for making this point clear,
that you did in fact not vote last year. As a Patrician who did not vote
in last year's election clearly you belong assigned to the Urban Tribes.

My point however concerned how active Plebeians, who I know did vote in
the elections last year, are also included in the Urban Tribes. The fact
that so many notable cives in our res publica appear in the Urban Tribes,
you among them, cautions that something is amiss in these assignments to
Urban Tribes. I quietly, privately made inquiries about this matter.
The apportionment of the centuries was made, as proper, in the annual
review required to be completed by the last of November. The discrepancy
in the tribal assignments has also been known for months; nothing has yet
been done about it. The discrepancies I first saw proved, on further
investigation, not to have entailed all that I had initially suspected.
The whole matter was kept private while investigation was conducted by
other parties, to confirm or deny what I had presented. There were
indeed misassignments made. That you were not party to that information,
or aware that I had earlier asked to have this matter investigated and
privately corrected, is quite understandable.

I do not say that there is a Patrician bias against Plebeians. It would
seem to me to be a rather childish notion in the first place for our res
publica. I do say that a group which refer to themselves as a Faction
of Optimates, have made some very strange accusations about another group
in Nova Roma. The so called Optimates have referred to the Amici
Dignitatis as an organization of Populares. How very strange indeed, as
the one particular issue the Optimates have tried to identify the Amici
as their Populares opponents , is the matter of one individual's defense
of a Patrician. The Optimates have attempted to rally support to
themselves by decrying that cives who speak about civil rights and social
justice in Nova Roma are in some way attempting to destroy their
Republic. Mainly their hysterics have focused on one individual, but at
the same time they have attempted to paint an entire group as nihilistic
radicals. They have made accusations that the Amici Dignitates is a
party seeking to steal control away from their authority. How very odd
indeed. Among the Amici Dignitatis are Senators and one of the founders
of Nova Roma, who also happens to be the Pontifix Maximus. And I may
point out that I and other members in the Amici Dignitatis hold other
offices within the Collegium Pontificum and in sodalitates. Do the
Optimates wish to suggest that a founder of Nova Roma is trying to steal
control? From who? Are members of the Collegium Pontificum such
radicals that they want to destroy Nova Roma? Are Senators radical
revolutionaries? Considering Vedius' attack on the Pontiff Cornelius
Felix, combined with the other statements he has made, might we assume
he directs his attack against the Collegium Pontificum as well as the
Amici Dignitatis? And let us not forget the Senate too. Populares in
the Senate. Populares in the Collegium Pontificum. Sodalitates filled
with Populares. All conspiring to tear down Nova Roma. Childish
hysterics is probably the wrong term to use for the kind of paranoid
nonsense spewing from the mouths of those who call themselves Optimates

Vedius was the first individual to even bring up the issue of claims
being made that Patricians were oppressing Plebeians. I have read one
individual make claims that he feels an injustice was perpetrated against
another individual, and that that person he so claims injured is in fact
a Patrician. I have not seen any group of Populares claiming that
Patricians were oppressing Plebeians. I have not seen that the
Patricians are attempting some oppression of Plebeians. But, as to
Vedius' claims that there has been no attempts on the part of some
individuals to inhibit the exercise of Plebeian political rights in Nova
Roma, I know that claim to be untrue.

You may take the matter of the apportionment, how its failure or neglect
to be discovered by those responsible for oversight, and by the need to
make the matter public when private methods proved inept to correct it,
to be symptomatic of other things that you may also have not been made
fully aware. The idea of a class war inside Nova Roma seems to me to be
more in the minds of individuals who attempt to perpetrate it. To Vedius
I might say, "dum excusare credis, accusas." Or the other way it might
be put is, "The guilty are the first to proclaim their innocence."

Vale

Gn. Moravius Piscinus
Tribunus Plebis petitor
Flamen Cerealis
Retarius et Rogator Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Rogator Sodalitas Musarum

piscinus@--------
http://www.diocletianus/elect/piscinus

I have included some comments below.

Octavius scripsit:
>>(Piscinus scripsit) The four recently elevated Plebeian Conscript
Patres:
>> M. Octavius Germanicus, Curile Aedile, Curator Aranae petitor

>I am a patrician.
>I did not vote in the 12/99 election (missed the deadline by one
>day), thus my assignment to an urban tribe is correct and proper.

>Tribal assignment has nothing to do with patrician/plebeian status.>>

****Respondeo: That is true, but in the case of apportionment to
centuries the distinction of the plebeian/patrician status does play a
role. Where it became a problem is where patterns emerged that showed
that patricians with fewer points were placed in higher classes than
plebeians with higher participation point values. Again, you were not
party to information of such discrepancies, nor that I had earlier
brought this matter to the attention of other individuals. The
apportionment made in 2753 AUC has considered my observations and
corrected those discrepancies. There is much being done that is not seen
on the public lists.

> If there was an administrative reason to
> temporarily reassign cives, contrary to the Lex Vedia you wrote, then
the
> Censors should have completed their work by the time of this election.

The Censors have had quite a lot to do. However, now that they have
been aware of this problem, they and I have made tribal reassignment
a priority. I am awaiting a list of those voter codes used in the
December 1999 elections; upon receiving it, all of those who voted
will be transferred to rural tribes - hopefully today, before the
election starts.

Last night, 34 new citizens who had been recently approved were
placed in rural tribes. They were distributed into the smaller
rural tribes so as to equalize the tribe size; the smallest tribes
now have nine members.

I thank you for pointing out that some tribal assignments were
in error, but do wish that you had done it a few weeks ago so
that we would have been able to fix it then.

***Respondeo: Yes, it would have been better had this matter been
addressed in July when I first pointed them out.

Vale, Octavius.

---
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] To Octavius, re: Class War
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:07:44 -0600 (CST)

Salve Gnae Moravi,

> and not that you took offense to possibly being misconstrued a Plebeian.

Not in the slightest! I was concerned only with the factual error,
and that I was being used as an example of incorrect tribal
assignment, when in fact my tribal assignment was correct and legal.

Vale, Octavius.

M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: From the Senior Consul -No Curule Aedile...
From:	SyanneRose@--------
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 18:29:16 EST

Salvete,

My thanks Titus and my good luck being sent to you.

Valete
Aeternia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Things To Do
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 15:39:40 -0800

Ave, I think the answer is somewhat apparent. Jealousy. They didnt think
of it first NOR start it first, so they beat down the person who has. Me.
Hey, it doesnt matter to me who starts it, just as long as it gets started.
I just think its interesting that it takes an ELECTION and a CAMPAIGN for
these ideas to come out? What happened thorughout the entire year? Where
were your ideas when you were just a citizen? Not a candidate for Consul?

The only original idea that Vado had was an attempt to draw public support
in an an impeachment proceeding of myself. In that sense he tried to
disrupte the government of Nova Roma. And, in doing so he would have caused
irrepairable damage to the Republic. But, I must give him credit, that is
the only action that Vado has done that was creative and original. But,
would it have been good for Nova Roma?

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: "M. Papirius Justus" <papirius@-------->
To: "Nicolaus Moravius" <n_moravius@-------->; <alexious@earthlink.net>
Cc: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Things To Do

> At 09:02 AM 05/12/2000, Nicolaus Moravius wrote:
> Sulla's "Laws List" is hardly a substitute for an officially-established
> panel of experts, accountable to the government, each member of which
would
> be tasked with a specific legal draft project, receiving contributions
from
> citizens.
>
> Respondeo:
>
> As one who has for the past while been a lurker here and am currently
> lurking on the laws list, I can't help but wonder about the
'novaromanitas'
> of some of the thinking here and on that list as well. This whole notion
> that the 'laws list' has to be somehow 'accountable' is so utterly foreign
> to Roman, Nova and other wise, thinking as to be ridiculous. The body that
> *makes* the laws is and always should be the senate. For the most part,
> their laws are 'responsive' in the sense that they should be the sorts of
> laws which are made when there is an actual need for a law to be made and
I
> think it is salutary to note that there is probably more legislation
passed
> in, say, the province of Ontario in a given year than there would have
been
> in 1.5 millennia of Roman history. Outside of that, law is/should be
> essentially the product of juristic and/or judicial interpretation of the
> praetor's edict. The laws list should be functioning as a sort of joint
> consilium available to magistrates and/or the senate when they feel a need
> to consult those who are learned in the law (even though they themselves
> might be).
>
> Personally, I don't see why we cannot begin with the known Corpus Iuris
> Civilis and simply adapt it to our needs taking into account the positive
> and negative changes in our respective societies. Eliminate/degenderify
> most of it and we'll have a perfectly fine legal code. Then install a
> judicial system based on assignation of judges and a somewhat more
flexible
> formulary system than prevailed in the late Republic and that's that.
>
> mpj
>
>
>
>
>
>

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