Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Debate
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:03:47 -0800

Sunday, December 10 @ 11 am (California Time) at the Nova Roma Chatroom (Beseen Chatroom).

Pompeia Cornelia will be moderating this debate.

This debate will include:

Candidates for Censor, Consul, Praetor, and Tribune of the Plebs.

This seems to be the most workable time for most parties concerned.

I hope that there will be two different forms:

1st. An opportunity to field questions from the People.

2nd. An opportunity to have the candidates ask questions to their adversaries.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Debate
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:05:19 -0800

Also, I forgot to add, if you are unable to make it for the debate, but you have questions for the candidates, please forward your questions to me, I will ask those questions to the candidates, during the debate.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 4:03 PM
Subject: Debate

Sunday, December 10 @ 11 am (California Time) at the Nova Roma Chatroom (Beseen Chatroom).

Pompeia Cornelia will be moderating this debate.

This debate will include:

Candidates for Censor, Consul, Praetor, and Tribune of the Plebs.

This seems to be the most workable time for most parties concerned.

I hope that there will be two different forms:

1st. An opportunity to field questions from the People.

2nd. An opportunity to have the candidates ask questions to their adversaries.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
eLerts
It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
http://click.egroups.com/1/9699/1/_/61050/_/976061126/
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Subject:	[novaroma] Senate Voting Results
From:	Ira Adams <iadams@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 18:24:13 -0600

Savete quirites!

Results of Voting on the November Senate Agenda
Proxies for A. Gryllus Graecus and M. Iunius were cast by L. Cornelius
Sulla
Proxies for M. Iucundia Flavia were cast by Q. Fabius Maximus

Item the First.
Reimbursement procedure for Magistrates of Nova Roma
Shall this be done?
L. Cornelius Sulla: No
A. Gryllus Graecis: No
M. Iunius: No
C. Aelius Ericius: No.
M. Cassius Julianus: NO. * The proposed procedure is an excellent start,
but was done in a hurry since there was a "crisis" over Censorial
funding. That has been dealt with in the short term, so there seems to be
time for everyone who has ideas to present them. This can be worked out
and completed next vote.
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas (yes).
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS. We have to start somewhere on
this, and ost of the proposal is perfectly sensible
M. Minucius Audens: NO (Negat)! (I agree with my Colleague Senator
Germanicus that, in my view, to pass a flawed Consultum is far worse than
to wait for a reasonable time to get it right. There is a saying which
applies: "We never have the luxury to get it right the first time, but
always have sufficent resource to correct it!!!" )
C. Tullius Cicero: Negat, this has not been sufficiently discussed.
N. Moravius Vado: NEGAT/ANTIQUO/NO Good in principle, but I cannot
support it as it stands. It needs much more careful, unhurried work,
especially on detailed procedure for claiming, assessing claims,
reimbursement, and audit. I strongly suggest we co-opt a committee, from
citizens with professional experience, and including the Quaestores, for
encoding such procedures as proposed law. Project funding - in fact, the
whole issue of project management - needs a whole manual, not just part
of one Senatus Consultum.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Negat. This procedure was rewritten twice from varius
submissions. It still needs some tweaking. Suggest it is polished and
resubmitted for Dec. Call.
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS I agree with Cassia. We have to start
somewhere. If we keep changing the text, it will never get done.
M. Marcius Rex: NEGAT More time for discussion needed
T. Labienus Fortunatus: NEGAT There is much of value in this proposal,
but the quaestores' role is incorrect.
D. Iunius Palladius: Iunius Palladius votes no
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Antiquo (Negat/NO)
M. Octavius Germanicus: NEGAT. While a procedure is needed, this one has
the Quaestors choosing whether to approve an expense, which is not proper.
YES 3; NO 15; AB 0
ITEM 1 FAILS

Item the Second
It is proposed that Nova Roma enact the following policy on financial
controls
Shall this be done?
L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
M. Cassius Julianus: YES.
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS. Same points apply
M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, there should be a permanent treasury staff.
N. Moravius Vado: NEGAT/ANTIQUO/NO For reasons similar to those stated
above, I cannot give this my approval.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
M. Marcius Rex: Negat More time for discussion needed
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius abstains. I think that we should start
moving control of the
treasury towards a more permanent, professional staff.
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS.
YES 15; NO 2; AB 1;
ITEM 2 PASSES

Item the Third
Legio V Alaudae (The Larks) request Nova Roma Sponsorship
Shall we sponsor the Legio?
L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
M. Cassius Julianus: YES. * I also am not overly concerned over having
too many small legions. Sponsoring new startups only gives us an
opportunity to grow Legions which are more connected to Nova Roma, and
made up with a greater percentage of Citizens.
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. (While some have expressed concerns about
sponsoring too many small legions, I think this is exactly the purpose of
our sponsorship program - to give these legions a place to find one
another and arrange projects in cooperation.)
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, this is part of our goals.
N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES Though I feel we should not go on to
sponsor an infinity of legiones, as I said earlier, I wish them well.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas. Although we should start thinking of
requesting greater numbers of recruits in legiones before we grant them
sponsorship. Alaudae has a special place in my heart, since it was one
of the first legiones I constructed.
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS.
YES 18; NO 0; AB 0;
ITEM 3 PASSES

Item the Fourth.
Incorporation of Switzerland into Province Germania.
Shall we do this?
L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. * If there is later any objection from Italian,
French or Romany Swiss, we can adjust borders and/or name at that time.
I assume it will be considered the Regio of Helvitia.
M. Cassius Julianus: YES.
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas, though I wish we had been able to hear from
more actual
Helvetian Citizens before making this choice.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: ABSTINEO.
M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, I don't see the combination as a problem.
N. Moravius Vado: ABSTINEO/NO VOTE/ABSTAIN Although no French- or
Italian-speaking citizens have objected (I admit I do not know whether
there are any to object), there may be objections in future. Also, as
there is no one in this House to speak for the particular interests of
the cives of Gallia or Italia, I feel unable to support this motion. And
could we give the regio a more Roman name, like Helvetia, please?
Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas This will set the record straight.
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS Though what about all the French speaking
citizens? When I was there I thought they made up a third of the
population. Do they really want to be part of Germania?
M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. Yes, but if a French or
Italian-speaking citizen of Helvetica prefers to be considered part of
Gallia or Italia, I hope the censors would allow that.
YES 16; NO O; AB 2;
ITEM 4 PASSES

Item the Fifth,
Certification of the Sodalitus Musarum as a Nova Roman Sodalitus.
Shall we do this?
L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
M. Cassius Julianus: YES.
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. May the Gods inspire them.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas
N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES This Sodalis will, divis volentibus,
enrich our cultural Romanitas and especially the Religio Romana.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS.
YES 18; NO 0; AB 0;
ITEM 5 PASSES

Item the Sixth
Quintus Sertorius has asked to be considered for appointment as
Propraetor of Canada Occidentalis.
Shall he be appointed?
L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. * [Much cheering, fanfares and flower petals!]
M. Cassius Julianus: At last! I vote an enthusiastic YES, and am
gratified that his patience held out long enough to see this done.
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. He has shown himself to be enthusiastic,
dedicated and energetic on behalf of Nova Roma.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, Sertorious is perfect for the position.
N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES He is a man of proven diligence,
enthusiasm, diligence and ability.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. He has worked hard for this, and will
make an excellent praetor.
YES 18; N0 0; AB 0;
ITEM 6 PASSES

Item the Seventh
The Praetor of Germania has requested that Senate might approve the
opening
of the Limes Cooperation between the Provinces.
Shall we approve this?
L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES. (And am in agreement that we should be
more proactive and work toward starting such efforts ourselves.)
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
C. Tullius Cicero: Abstaino. I am not clear on this issue.
N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES The sharing and emulation of best
practice, and mutual assistance, deserves approval. The Limes
Co-operation facilitates this. I speak from experience.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. Standards are a good thing.
YES 17; NO 0; AB 1;
ITEM 7 PASSES

Item the Eighth.
Additional Internal Senate Procedures.
A. The Senate shall conduct its business within full view of the
Citizenry. This will be implemented by allowing all Citizens to read
(but not post on) the Senate e-mail list. Exceptions are provided.
Shall we allow this?
L. Cornelius Sulla: No
A. Gryllus Graecis: No
M. Iunius: No
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
M. Cassius Julianus: NO
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. It is my understanding that in ancient Rome,
Senate discussions could be heard by (and were regularly discussed by)
Citizens while they were going on. It is also consistent with the idea of
helping Citizens of Nova Roma to feel more involved and to
contribute their knowledge and ideas.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: NEGAT. I am persuaded by the arguments of
Australicus on this point.
M. Minucius Audens: NO (Negat)! (I do not believe, in my view, that any
useful information can be gained by the Citizens of Nova Roma from
hearing deliberations on the Senate Floor, and I am likewise absolutely
certain that much harm and confusion would result from such a proposal.
Finally it does not appear to be historically correct. I honor Senator
Fortunatus for his abiliy to look past the immediate discussion, and
pledge to him my support in the future toward keeping the Citizens of
Nova Roma properly informed.)
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, I am satisfied with the restrictions.
N. Moravius Vado: NEGAT/ANTIQUO/NO As I have said before, if it proves
unworkable, it will be hard to revoke or amend. I would, however, support
any future proposal to allow individual citizens read-only access on
application (especially magistrates and other officials), for a limited
period and to a limited number at any time.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Negat. I have already made my reasons known. If the
Republic didn't do it, why should we? The Senators conducted business
out doors, until they had to debate topics. Then they went inside.
There had to be a reason for this. I think I was so they wouldn't be
intimidated by the populace.
M. Iucundia Flavia: NEGAT It was not done in old Rome. We are
attempting to recreate the Roman republic.
M. Marcius Rex: Negat I bow to Sergius Australicus for his
constitutional law opinion on this particular proposal.
T. Labienus Fortunatus: NEGAT I have, no doubt, surprised many with this
vote. I came into this debate much in favor of the idea, though I had
some slight qualms about the technicalities of its execution. I remain
torn between a desire to provide a transparent government and a wish to
maintain the mos maiorum. I have long argued that one of the major
questions facing Nova Roma is how much to keep of the old versus how much
to add of the new. It is not a question that will be answered quickly or
easily.
Additionally, the major reason that I originally felt that this body's
deliberations should be open to the populace is because of the tendency
to use senatus consulta to decide issues that should be taken before the
comitia. Often, we treat our decisions as though they create law, and we
have occasionally acted as though we have a right to discipline
individual citizens--effectively acting as a closed court in which the
accused is not even assured of being allowed to defend him or her self.
If we take onto ourselves the powers of the comitia, then we must be
exposed to scrutiny and answerable to the people for our decisions.
However, I am heartened by the fact that almost every candidate for major
office has made building the institutions necessary to rectify the
problem of the Senate's arrogation of powers that are not its by right
the center of his or her campaign. Therefore, in light of those campaing
promises, and in an optimistic spirit, I opt to maintain the mos maiorum.
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes no
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Antiquo (Negat/NO)
M. Octavius Germanicus: NEGAT. I refer once again to the line from Twain
(or Bismarck) about sausage-making.
YES 3; NEGAT 15; AB 0;
ITEM 8A FAILS

B. II. The votes of individual Senators, along with any rationales they
offer with their votes (i.e., in the same e-mail as the vote itself),
will be made available to the Citizens by the Tribunes of the Plebs,
either by forwarding them to the main Nova Roma e-mail list or by
posting them to the Nova Roma web site.
Shall this be done?
L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES, and suggest that there should be a
record of Senate votes posted to the website. No Senator should be
*forced* to explain their vote, but an option for such should definitely
be included.
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS.
M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas
N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES This House as an institution, and many
of its members as individuals, have suffered from an undeservedly
negative perception by the populus. I trust this will go a long way to
remedying the matter.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas. This has always been allowed. Lists were
often put up on the sides of the Rosta so those that could read could
inspect them.
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. Although the process itself should be
conducted in privacy, the people do have a right to know who supports
which items. Even though we are appointed for life, many of us run for
elected office as well, and should therefore be held accountable.
I also believe this to be historically correct, as the Tribunes (and
door-slaves) did inform the people what happened within the Curia.
YES 17; NO 1; AB 0;
ITEM 8B PASSES

Item the Ninth.
Change to the Electoral Procedure Re: Multiple Candidates
To ensure a consistent standard for future elections,
these two mutually exclusive proposals are now placed before
the Senate:
VOTE FOR BOTH or ABSTAIN.
A. "One Vote"
L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
C. Aelius Ericius: No.
M. Cassius Julianus: A. One vote. Octavius has made an excellent case
for this.
Patricia Cassia: A. One vote. I am persuaded by Octavius' arguments on
behalf of historical accuracy.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS. I am persuaded here by the
argument for consistency with Roma Antiqua and by the immediate
practicalities. I do think, however, that it is unfortunate that we have
attempted to have a full number of Centuries with a small number of
citizens. This rather destroys the point of the Century system,
irrespective of the silly results of treating a century as "tied" when
one citizen votes.
M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
C. Tullius Cicero: Negat. If there is more than one selection there must
be more than one vote to reflect the opinion of the citizen.
N. Moravius Vado: NEGAT/ANTIQUO/NO People have a right to vote for as
many candidacies as there are posts to be filled. Votes will be spoiled
as a result of misunderstandings. This will be contentious. Ancient
practice is not always best practice.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas. We do have to come up with a better system
eventually.
M. Iucundia Flavia: NEGAT This is not a full vote. It is half a vote.
Why should the citizens stand for that?
M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes **NO** on this item, which should
more properly be
called the "half a vote per voter proposal."
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. This fixes a flaw in our system in a
historically correct way. Each person selects *one* candidate for consul
or praetor, just as our ancestors did. A beneficial effect of this is
that both competing viewpoints will be represented in the Consulate, and
the consuls will serve as controls on each others power -- as the
founders of the Republic intended.
YES 13; NO 5; AB 0;
ITEM 9A PASSES

B. "Multiple Votes, Ties Awarded to All"
L. Cornelius Sulla: No
A. Gryllus Graecis: No
M. Iunius: No
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: NEGAT, for the reasons above
M. Minucius Audens: NO (Negat)!
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, as above.
N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES It has been said that this system would
favour political parties. There are no political parties in NR. May the
gods spare us that! It has been said that this system gives people more
than one vote for each candidate. Mea sententia, it is better to give the
voters more votes than they ought to have, rather than deny them the
votes they ought to have.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Negat. Too many potental problems though I liked the
effort.
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS What problems? People get to vote for who
they want. Isn't this what it is all about?
M. Marcius Rex: NEGAT
T. Labienus Fortunatus: NEGAT A very good try, M Octavius.
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes YES
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Absto (abstain)
M. Octavius Germanicus: NEGAT. It seemed like a good idea at first,
mathematically and logically sound, but it is not historically correct,
it also encourages factionalism by allowing an entire "party" to be voted
in, and it changes the balance of power by allowing some votes to be
counted twice.
YES 5; NO 10; AB 3;
ITEM 9B FAILS

Item the tenth
Addition of a Third Rogator.
To include a third elected or appointed Rogator, with only two needed to
oversee the electoral process.
The third to act as backup
Shall this be done?
L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes*My comments on this proposal is that it should
be taking to the Comitia and the Lex Vedia amended. Otherwise according
to the Legal precedence
section in the Constitution, this Senatus Consulta means very little.
A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
C. Aelius Ericius says: It would help the Republic to function if we
had a couple
of spares for this highly essential post. We should so recommend this to
the Comitia.
M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES. I also agree with Germanicus that there
should actually be *four* trained Rogators at any time as opposed to
three.
Patricia Cassia: Assuming this is actually a recommendation to the
Comitia rather than an attempt to overturn a Lex (which we can't do), Uti
rogas.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS - provided that this is to be
understood as a recommendation for legislation, not as an
unconstitutional attempt to amend a lex by s.c.
M. Minucius Audens: NO (Negat)! (The item is not worded properly to be
voted upon by this August Body. A change in the proper Lex should be
submitted for approval and then
voted upon by the people. Again, in my view, a flawed Consultum is worse
than no decision at all.)
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas
N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES
If the Senate is entitled to co-opt a Dictator in an emergency, it would
seem absurd for the Senate not to take ythe initiative to co-opt back-up
Rogatores (I would favour two), when the machinery of government is in
danger of breaking down. Consul Q. Fabius has every right to feel
exasperated. So do I. A general agreement to bend the rules of the
Constitution in cases such as those we have experienced this year, when
the Comitia cannot work and elections cannot be held is, I believe, fully
pardonable when a shortcoming in the Constitution has us backed into a
Catch-22 situation.
It is the spirit of the law, not the letter of it, which is important at
times like these. So I am voting for something that is unconstitutional
and therefore (technically) illegal. I hope it is the last time I shall
feel I need to do such a thing. I hope this passes the vote, and goes to
the Comitia for ratification (assuming we have enough Rogatores to allow
this to happen).
Q. Fabius Maximus: I say yes it should be done and sent to the Comitia
for ratification.
The Consules will write a lex and put it to the people next week.
M. Iucundia Flavia: NEGAT It is unconstitutional as written.
M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS I concur with Senator Labienus on this issue
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS I agree to this only inasmuch as we
shall secure a replacement for either of the two elected rogatores in
anticipation of the eventuality that one of them may prematurely lay down
the task. We do not have the power to alter a lex, and I urge the
consules to draft an appropriate lex and put it before the people during
the upcoming election.
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes NO
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Antiquo (Negat/No) As Germanicus pointed out this
is not something we can do, but I do think this should be something that
is on the first comtia call.
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. I am aware that the lex specifies two
Rogators; therefore the third must be strictly considered a backup, who
will assume the position when one of the primaries fails to fulfill their
duty.
YES 13; NO 5; AB 0;
ITEM 10 PASSES LEX TO BE SENT TO THE COMITIA

Item the eleventh
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo requests to be Propraetor of Canada Orientalis.
Shall we allow her?
L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES. Pompeia Cornelia Strabo has proven
herself to be both dedicated and enthusiastic. I believe Nova Roma will
benefit greatly by having her in this office.
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. Pompeia Cornelia is a thoughtful and mature
person who will represent us well.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, Cornelia is well suited to the position. I
am pleased to see both Canadian positions will be filled for the first
time.
N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES She is as worthy of the office as Q.
Sertorius is of that of Propraetor Canadae Occidentalis, for the same
reasons.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Vti Rogas. Though is it my imagination or are most of
the Cornelii
Provincial Praetors?
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS.
YES 18; NO 0; AB 0;
ITEM 11 PASSES

Item the Twelfth.
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus requests the creation of a province called
Argentina and requests the Provincial Praetorship.
Shall we create the Province?
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES, although I agree that the province
should be called Argentinia.
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas (though I am with Germanicus in wishing it
were called Argentinia).
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas.
N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES Although I think it is more a matter of
the Senate approving what has already been created.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas.
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS.
YES 18; NO 0; AB 0;
ITEM 12a PASSES

Shall we make him the Provincial Praetor?
L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
M. Cassius Julianus: YES
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas.
N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES
Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS.
YES 18; NO 0; AB 0;
ITEM 12b PASSES

Senator A. Probus cast the following votes too late to count:
Alexander Probus:
Item I - No
Item II -Yes
Item III - Yes
Item IIII - Yes
Item V - Yes
Item VI - Yes
Item VII - Yes
Item VIII - A - No
- B - Yes
Item VIIII - A - Yes
- B - No
Item X - Yes
Item XI - Yes
Item XII - Yes (with an additional note)
According to the last item I would like to post a question. What if few
years after we will have other citizens in Chile, Uruguai, Paraguai and
Bolivia? Will we create separate provinces for every national country or
will try to simpliify the things uniting some of them into one NR
province.
My opinion is to createa province with a different name than one national
state in the regio. That name may to be acceptable for the potential
citizens from all the national states in the regio. On the other hand
Argentina is a very big country so she could be a separate province. I
would
like to hear opinions on that issue of colleagues more experienced with
the
situation of America Australis.

***********************************

I hope this juice was worth the squeeze for someone.

Valete,

Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
Tribunus Plebis

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Debate
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Tue, 05 Dec 2000 17:31:34 -0700

I think it would be more proper to forward questions to the
moderatrix, Pompeia.

Livia

"L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:

> Also, I forgot to add, if you are unable to make it for
> the debate, but you have questions for the candidates,
> please forward your questions to me, I will ask those
> questions to the candidates, during the debate.
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: L. Cornelius Sulla
> To: novaroma@--------
> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 4:03 PM
> Subject: Debate
>
>
> Sunday, December 10 @ 11 am (California Time) at the
> Nova Roma Chatroom (Beseen Chatroom).
>
> Pompeia Cornelia will be moderating this debate.
>
> This debate will include:
>
> Candidates for Censor, Consul, Praetor, and Tribune of
> the Plebs.
>
> This seems to be the most workable time for most parties
> concerned.
>
> I hope that there will be two different forms:
>
> 1st. An opportunity to field questions from the People.
>
> 2nd. An opportunity to have the candidates ask
> questions to their adversaries.
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Censor of Nova Roma
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> eGroups Sponsor
[Click Here!]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Debate
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:37:47 -0800

Sounds good to me. ;)

SF
----- Original Message -----
From: gmvick32@--------
To: L. Cornelius Sulla ; novaroma@--------
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Debate

I think it would be more proper to forward questions to the moderatrix, Pompeia.
Livia

"L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:

Also, I forgot to add, if you are unable to make it for the debate, but you have questions for the candidates, please forward your questions to me, I will ask those questions to the candidates, during the debate.
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 4:03 PM
Subject: Debate

Sunday, December 10 @ 11 am (California Time) at the Nova Roma Chatroom (Beseen Chatroom).

Pompeia Cornelia will be moderating this debate.

This debate will include:

Candidates for Censor, Consul, Praetor, and Tribune of the Plebs.

This seems to be the most workable time for most parties concerned.

I hope that there will be two different forms:

1st. An opportunity to field questions from the People.

2nd. An opportunity to have the candidates ask questions to their adversaries.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] To Octavius, re: Class War
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 18:39:32 -0600 (CST)

Salve Gnae Moravi,

> Your inclusion on my list was to point out how certain notable cives
> appear in the Urban Tribes.

But, of course, we all know that being notable is not what causes a
citizen to be a member of a rural tribe; the only determining factors
are whether that person voted in the previous year's election, or
received citizenship within the past year.

> My point however concerned how active Plebeians, who I know did vote in
> the elections last year, are also included in the Urban Tribes.

Now that I know of this problem, I will work to correct it, with
permission of the Censors, tonight.

> I do not say that there is a Patrician bias against Plebeians. It would
> seem to me to be a rather childish notion in the first place for our res
> publica.

Agreed.

> I do say that a group which refer to themselves as a Faction
> of Optimates,

Where have you seen this group refer to themselves as Optimates? That
word was first used here in a post by Flavius Vedius that spoke
out *against* attempts by un-named persons to depict the current
campaign as a battle between Plebeians and Patricians, or
Populares and Optimates.

> The Optimates have attempted to rally support to
> themselves by decrying that cives who speak about civil rights and social
> justice in Nova Roma are in some way attempting to destroy their
> Republic. Mainly their hysterics have focused on one individual,

I cannot speak for these so-called "Optimates", whoever they are, but
I myself have spoken out against one candidate for his refusal to accept
a compromise regarding the Censors' edict, for his stated goal of
"removing" from office Censor Sulla, and for his offensive allusions
to the Nazi Holocaust. Is this something you consider to be
"hysterics"?

> the same time they have attempted to paint an entire group as
> nihilistic radicals.

I asked other members of the Amici Dignitatis whether they
supported the more extreme calls to action put forth in Apollonius'
post entitled "The Movement" (now commonly called the "manifesto"), and
the answer was that they do not. Titus Labienus Fortunatis
and Caius Flavius Diocletianus have made it clear that they do
not support the goals stated in "The Movement", and I believe them,
I believe that are patriotic citizens who will work within the
system, and that they are by no means "nihilistic radicals".

> Among the Amici Dignitatis are Senators and one of the founders
> of Nova Roma, who also happens to be the Pontifix Maximus.

The name of Marcus Cassius Iulianus does not appear on the
Statement of the Amici Dignitatis.

> Do the Optimates wish to suggest that a founder of Nova Roma
> is trying to steal control?

I guess I don't know whose these imaginary "Optimates" are, then.
I must not be one of them -- I built Marcus Cassius' campaign
web site and provided the space for it on my server.

> Considering Vedius' attack on the Pontiff Cornelius
> Felix, combined with the other statements he has made, might we assume
> he directs his attack against the Collegium Pontificum as well as the
> Amici Dignitatis?

Of course not -- he merely provided a reference against the
character of one Pontiff, he did not attack any others, or attack
the whole group. And I've been speaking out against M. Apollonius,
but have said nothing against those among the Amici who have
rejected the goals of "The Movement".

> Childish hysterics is probably the wrong term to use for the kind of
> paranoid nonsense spewing from the mouths of those who call
> themselves Optimates

Can you show me an example of paranoid nonsense from these
"Optimates", whoever they are?

> Vedius was the first individual to even bring up the issue of claims
> being made that Patricians were oppressing Plebeians.

He brought it up in order to dismiss it for the nonsense that it is.

> I have read one individual make claims that he feels an
> injustice was perpetrated against another individual,

Yes, we all have heard that, repeatedly, endlessly, ad nauseam.

> You may take the matter of the apportionment, how its failure or neglect
> to be discovered by those responsible for oversight, and by the need to
> make the matter public when private methods proved inept to correct it,
> to be symptomatic of other things that you may also have not been made
> fully aware.

It's symtomatic of the Censors being extremely overworked.

> The idea of a class war inside Nova Roma seems to me to be
> more in the minds of individuals who attempt to perpetrate it.

Who is attempting to perpetrate a class war? The idea is ridiculous,
and Flavius Vedius was right to speak out against such divisive rumours.
There is no class war.

> ****Respondeo: That is true, but in the case of apportionment to
> centuries the distinction of the plebeian/patrician status does play a
> role.

A poor substitute for the inability to vote for Tribune, in my opinion.
Plebeians certainly got the better end of that arrangement!

> Where it became a problem is where patterns emerged that showed
> that patricians with fewer points were placed in higher classes than
> plebeians with higher participation point values. Again, you were not
> party to information of such discrepancies, nor that I had earlier
> brought this matter to the attention of other individuals. The
> apportionment made in 2753 AUC has considered my observations and
> corrected those discrepancies. There is much being done that is not seen
> on the public lists.

So the Censors are working to correct the discrepancies -- excellent.
Calculating points and assigning citizens to classes and centuries has
been a difficult and time-consuming matter in the past. I hope to
streamline the process during next year's century allocation.

> ***Respondeo: Yes, it would have been better had this matter been
> addressed in July when I first pointed them out.

Agreed... but one Censor had recently been in the hospital, the other
was new to the job, and I was already introducing them to a completely
different method of maintaining the data (July 26th was the cutover
date for the old and new citizen databases). With all that going on,
unfortunately, this apparently got overlooked.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Senate Voting Results
From:	SyanneRose@--------
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:39:21 EST

Salvete Omnes,

At the moment I am truly speechless. My congrats to the new Pro-Praetors as
well.

Seriously I am very speechless and truly adrenaline flowed to post an actual
understandable statement at this time. Yet I will thank every Senator for
allowing an eccentric 20 year old to be part of Nova Roma's History.

Members of the Muses List, expect a speech from me when I have calmed down
from pure joy, thank you all .

Valete
Aeternia *The Stunned*

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] To Octavius, re: Class War
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:39:18 -0500

Salve Piscinius,

I request a clarification of the following quote please:

>Among the Amici Dignitatis are Senators and one of the founders of Nova
Roma, who also happens to be the Pontifix Maximus.>>

Perhaps I am confused, but by "among the Amici Dignitatis", do you refer to
those individuals who signed the declaration, or simply to those cives who
have subscribed to the Amici Dignitatis list? Specifically, I have looked
back at the original declaration (or at least the first to be posted
publicly) and the honorable Cassius was not, in fact, a signatory. He may
very well have signed in the meantime, but I am unaware of it if he has, yet
you reference him as a "member".

I also inquire because I myself am an Amici Dignitatis list member in search
of interesting conversation, yet I do not consider myself a member of any
faction/party/what-have-you. I was operating with the understanding that the
"group" known as the Amici Dignitatis are separate and quite different from
those who happen to be members of a mailing list. In point of fact, I do
believe the majority of cives are operating with the same understanding at
this time.

If you could clarify this issue, I would be most grateful

Vale,

Priscilla Vedia Serena

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Subject:	[novaroma] Hooray Pompeia!!!!
From:	SyanneRose@--------
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:48:55 EST

Salvete Omnes,

Such a joyous night, coming out of pure stunnednation mode for a few seconds.
I wanted to congradulate my dear friend Pompeia Cornelia Strabo on her new
Pro-Praetor ship. I guess the green candles I lit for her had some luck after
all. Congrats dear friend and may the Cornelia Gens celebrate.

Valete
Aeternia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Hooray Pompeia!!!!
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:53:12 -0800

We are Tink! Its a proud day for the Gens Cornelia! :) I am so very proud
of Pompeia! :)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Pater
----- Original Message -----
From: <SyanneRose@-------->
To: <NovaRoma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 4:48 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Hooray Pompeia!!!!

> Salvete Omnes,
>
> Such a joyous night, coming out of pure stunnednation mode for a few
seconds.
> I wanted to congradulate my dear friend Pompeia Cornelia Strabo on her new
> Pro-Praetor ship. I guess the green candles I lit for her had some luck
after
> all. Congrats dear friend and may the Cornelia Gens celebrate.
>
> Valete
> Aeternia
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	Fw: [novaroma] Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus stands for Praetor Urbanus
From:	"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 23:04:59 -0000

Salutem

Scripsit Obstinatus:

> >I would like to work with Quintus Fabius
> >Maximus in the
> > coming year to bring a system of civil law to Nova Roma, and to
> > strengthen our comitiae, in which our citizens make the laws and settle
> > the disputes of our Republic.

Me, I am looking forward to working on the same with anybody who has the
sincerity and commitment, whether I am elected or not.

Valete

Vado.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Cursus Honorum - a new lex!
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 01:59:43 +0100

Salvete Omnes!

I am sorry dear citizens, but I am going to give a long speech here at the
Rostrum. I hope You will excuse both my weak languae, me being a Swede and
the length of the speech.

There has been a discussion on issue of the Cursus Honorum. There have been
roughly two standpoints:

1. We don't have enough candidates to follow the Cursus Honorum.

2. It would be a good idea to follow the Cursus Honorum, then it would be
harder for some unknow candidate to get to the level of Consul or Censor.

Most of us try to look to Roma Antiqua, how was it then? As a reference I
use a Swedish book (in Swedish):
author: J.M. Sund�n, The Roman Antiquities, printed in Uppsala 1903. He is
using a lot of the old authors (Livius, Polbylius, Cicero and so on) at the
time he was seen as a real expect.
This is what he says about about the order in which to be elected:

1. In older time there seems to be no order in which to elected.
2. Even during the Second Punic war You can see men becoming praetors even
though they already have been praetors or consuls.
3. You can even see people becoming a consul even although they haven't had
any curule office before.
4. In 198 B.C. T. Quinctius Flamininius became consul at the low age of 31
although he had only been a questor before.
5. A different praxis slowly developed and later was made law. This costum
was coupled which the rule the you should be of a certain age when You
first had the right to candidate to an office. This was made in lex Villia
annalis (180).
6. Censors were nearly always elected among former consuls, to become a
censor was the highest place of honor for a Roman citizien.

The order was: quaestor => (aedile or people tribune; praxis but never
law)) => praetor => consul => censor

There were some examples of the comitia or Senate grating exeptions to
these rules: examples:Scipio Africanus (147) and Pompeius (70) as consuls.

In Roma Aniqua it seems as if Cursus Honorum was law from 180 BC and
forward with the right for the Senate and Comitia to grant exeptions.

During THIS election campaign I feel I have been left to decide who I
should vote for based on: behavior in the debate (many individual lose ther
dignity here) or what they say they stand for (not what I KNOW they stand
for). Maybe it easier for citiziens who have been here longer to decide who
to vote for? But for us newcomers I think a law about Cursus Honorum would
give us the chance to ask for the poloitical history of a candidate and to
decide on the ground of what they have done. I can't see that it would
"hurt" any one if we introduced such a law either.

I can also see the advantage that we will slowly build up a "pool" of
experienced officeholders for the res publica to use.

Maybe we should also give all propaetores, as a special rule, the right to
stand for election next year as if they have been praetors the year before.
In that way I hope that we will a base that will give us enough candidates.
Every citizien that candidate next year and all years thereafter will also
have the right to candidate to a office one level "higher" (according to
the Cursus Honorum) than the highest office the candidate has been elected
to.

I suggest a new law consisting of "about" the following wordings:

Lex Cursus Honorum "name of official"
1. Every citizien who want to candidate to an office in Nova Roma must
follow the Cursus Honorum.
2. The Curus Honorum means that a candate must have been:
2.1. a quaestor to candidate for the office of aedile or people's tribune
2.2. an aedile or a people's tribune to candidate for the office of
praetor
2.3. a praetor to candidate for the office of consul
2.4. a consul to candidate for the office of censor
3. No other offices are regulated in this lex than those named herein.
4. All propraetors that have been holding that office during the year 2000
or before shall have the right to
candidate in the following elections as if they have been a prator.
5. Any citizien is free to at any time candidate to an office that is at
the same level or lower level than the highest
office the candidate has been elected to.
6. All legislation about "proper" age in "Lex Iunia de Magistratum Aetate"
shall continue to be law.
7. The Senate or a Comitia that has the right to elect someone to a certain
office has the right to grant an individual
candidate the right to candidate to any office as an exception from the
Cursus Honorum during ONE election.

I don't know what my fellow citiziens think of this. I know I can't propose
such a legislation myself even if I will be elected as quaestor. But I will
look positive on any officeholder that put a lawproposal close to this one
in front of the proper comitia to make it a lex.

Ave et salve

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Things To Do
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:59:53 -0500

Salvete;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: M. Papirius Justus [mailto:papirius@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 5:48 PM
>
> The body that
> *makes* the laws is and always should be the senate.

I'm afraid I must disagree with this most strenuously.

The bodies that make and enact the laws are, and always should be, the
Assemblies; the Comitia Centuriata, Comitia Populi Tributa, and Comitia
Plebis Tributa. The Senate most properly issues only its advice (the
"Senatus Consultum"), although it is entrusted with the disbursement of the
treasury and sundry other administrivia.

But make no mistake; while the Senate issues advice and makes overall
policy, it is the people, through the Assemblies, that make the laws. And
that, I'm sure we all agree, is how it should be.

> Personally, I don't see why we cannot begin with the known Corpus Iuris
> Civilis and simply adapt it to our needs taking into account the positive
> and negative changes in our respective societies. Eliminate/degenderify
> most of it and we'll have a perfectly fine legal code. Then install a
> judicial system based on assignation of judges and a somewhat more
flexible
> formulary system than prevailed in the late Republic and that's that.

I think this is an excellent idea, and it is of course the direction in
which we are moving, albeit slowly. The problem comes in the codification;
putting it in words so that the various Citizens who happen not to be
scholars of Roman law (myself included!) can at least have a shot of
understanding it.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul

http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Senate Voting Results
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Tue, 05 Dec 2000 18:09:51 -0700

Salvete, quirities.

My thanks to Australicus, I for one appreciate the voting
summary.

My congratulations to the new Propraetor Quintus Sertorius
and Propraetrix Pompeia Cornelia Strabo, who will be joining
me in service to their provinces. My special congratulations
to Propraetor Lucius Pompeius Octavianus for his appointment
and the creation of the new Provincia Argentinia.

My congratulations to our august Senator et Proprator Marcus
Marcius Rex for the inclusion of Switzerland into the
Provincia Germania. Also, my congratulations to him and
Alexander Iulius Caesar Macedonius as Propraetor of Pannonia
for the recognition of the Limes Cooperation which they
founded by the Senate!!

Last, but certainly not least, my congratulations to the
Delecti of the Sodalitas Musarum for the official
certification of their efforts to bring a new sodalitas into
being.

Livia Cornelia Aurelia
Propraetor, America Austroccidentalis

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Cursus Honorum - a new lex!
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:08:39 -0800

Ave,

No one has stated we SHOULD have a legislated Cursus Honorum. I was
responding to Sextus Apollonius's comments about a "what if" scenario if a
deranged Censor got into that office and started publishing Edicta.

There are a number of checks that would prevent that action from occuring,
IMHO. Examples would be:

Colleague Intercessio
Tribinue Veto
Senatus Consulta overriding the Edicta
A Lex promulgated from the People.

My comment about legislating the Cursus Honorum would have prevented that
type of abuse as well. I hope everyone now understands the post that I made
in regard to legislating a Cursus Honorum. So, my stressing legislating the
Cursus Honorum was only in regrad to countering Sextus's comments.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christer Edling" <tjalens.h@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 4:59 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Cursus Honorum - a new lex!

> Salvete Omnes!
>
> I am sorry dear citizens, but I am going to give a long speech here at the
> Rostrum. I hope You will excuse both my weak languae, me being a Swede and
> the length of the speech.
>
> There has been a discussion on issue of the Cursus Honorum. There have
been
> roughly two standpoints:
>
> 1. We don't have enough candidates to follow the Cursus Honorum.
>
> 2. It would be a good idea to follow the Cursus Honorum, then it would be
> harder for some unknow candidate to get to the level of Consul or Censor.
>
> Most of us try to look to Roma Antiqua, how was it then? As a reference I
> use a Swedish book (in Swedish):
> author: J.M. Sund�n, The Roman Antiquities, printed in Uppsala 1903. He is
> using a lot of the old authors (Livius, Polbylius, Cicero and so on) at
the
> time he was seen as a real expect.
> This is what he says about about the order in which to be elected:
>
> 1. In older time there seems to be no order in which to elected.
> 2. Even during the Second Punic war You can see men becoming praetors even
> though they already have been praetors or consuls.
> 3. You can even see people becoming a consul even although they haven't
had
> any curule office before.
> 4. In 198 B.C. T. Quinctius Flamininius became consul at the low age of 31
> although he had only been a questor before.
> 5. A different praxis slowly developed and later was made law. This costum
> was coupled which the rule the you should be of a certain age when You
> first had the right to candidate to an office. This was made in lex Villia
> annalis (180).
> 6. Censors were nearly always elected among former consuls, to become a
> censor was the highest place of honor for a Roman citizien.
>
> The order was: quaestor => (aedile or people tribune; praxis but never
> law)) => praetor => consul => censor
>
> There were some examples of the comitia or Senate grating exeptions to
> these rules: examples:Scipio Africanus (147) and Pompeius (70) as consuls.
>
> In Roma Aniqua it seems as if Cursus Honorum was law from 180 BC and
> forward with the right for the Senate and Comitia to grant exeptions.
>
> During THIS election campaign I feel I have been left to decide who I
> should vote for based on: behavior in the debate (many individual lose
ther
> dignity here) or what they say they stand for (not what I KNOW they stand
> for). Maybe it easier for citiziens who have been here longer to decide
who
> to vote for? But for us newcomers I think a law about Cursus Honorum would
> give us the chance to ask for the poloitical history of a candidate and to
> decide on the ground of what they have done. I can't see that it would
> "hurt" any one if we introduced such a law either.
>
> I can also see the advantage that we will slowly build up a "pool" of
> experienced officeholders for the res publica to use.
>
> Maybe we should also give all propaetores, as a special rule, the right to
> stand for election next year as if they have been praetors the year
before.
> In that way I hope that we will a base that will give us enough
candidates.
> Every citizien that candidate next year and all years thereafter will also
> have the right to candidate to a office one level "higher" (according to
> the Cursus Honorum) than the highest office the candidate has been elected
> to.
>
> I suggest a new law consisting of "about" the following wordings:
>
> Lex Cursus Honorum "name of official"
> 1. Every citizien who want to candidate to an office in Nova Roma must
> follow the Cursus Honorum.
> 2. The Curus Honorum means that a candate must have been:
> 2.1. a quaestor to candidate for the office of aedile or people's
tribune
> 2.2. an aedile or a people's tribune to candidate for the office of
> praetor
> 2.3. a praetor to candidate for the office of consul
> 2.4. a consul to candidate for the office of censor
> 3. No other offices are regulated in this lex than those named herein.
> 4. All propraetors that have been holding that office during the year 2000
> or before shall have the right to
> candidate in the following elections as if they have been a prator.
> 5. Any citizien is free to at any time candidate to an office that is at
> the same level or lower level than the highest
> office the candidate has been elected to.
> 6. All legislation about "proper" age in "Lex Iunia de Magistratum Aetate"
> shall continue to be law.
> 7. The Senate or a Comitia that has the right to elect someone to a
certain
> office has the right to grant an individual
> candidate the right to candidate to any office as an exception from
the
> Cursus Honorum during ONE election.
>
> I don't know what my fellow citiziens think of this. I know I can't
propose
> such a legislation myself even if I will be elected as quaestor. But I
will
> look positive on any officeholder that put a lawproposal close to this one
> in front of the proper comitia to make it a lex.
>
>
>
>
> Ave et salve
>
> Christer Edling
> alias
> Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> ************************************************
> Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
> "I'll either find a way or make one"
> ************************************************
> "Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
> ************************************************
> SHAMALI SALUKIS
> ************************************************
> CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
> Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
> ************************************************
> IF GAMES - If reality was different!
> Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
> ************************************************
> MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
> ************************************************
> PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
> DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
> MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Things To Do
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:10:55 -0800

> > Personally, I don't see why we cannot begin with the known Corpus Iuris
> > Civilis and simply adapt it to our needs taking into account the
positive
> > and negative changes in our respective societies. Eliminate/degenderify
> > most of it and we'll have a perfectly fine legal code. Then install a
> > judicial system based on assignation of judges and a somewhat more
> flexible
> > formulary system than prevailed in the late Republic and that's that.
>
> I think this is an excellent idea, and it is of course the direction in
> which we are moving, albeit slowly. The problem comes in the codification;
> putting it in words so that the various Citizens who happen not to be
> scholars of Roman law (myself included!) can at least have a shot of
> understanding it.

Let me just as a me too! As one who isnt a student of ancient Roman Law,
but an avid enthusiast, I would love to hear more about this, and how we can
formulate procedures and implement them into Nova Roma! :)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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Subject:	[novaroma] An Extra Thank You
From:	SyanneRose@--------
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 20:11:55 EST

Salvete Omnes,

There is group of citizens I forgot to thank, yes I know, bad, bad, Aeternia.
I was so excited it slipped my mind, and I don't want them to think I'm a snob
or anything.

I would like to take time out to thank the Delecti Comittee, without them, the
Sodalitas Musarum would not have been possible, I couldn't have done it alone.

Valete
Aeternia

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Subject:	[novaroma] Three Good Men
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 05 Dec 2000 20:04:58 -0600

T Labienus Quiritibus S P D

I would like, for a moment, to set aside my own campaigning in order to
say some good things about a few people.

Nearly all of this year's candidates deserve a lot of praise. In order
to endorse everyone that I'd like to, I would have to write a very long
message that would result in diluted praise, and would essentially be
criticizing those few that I omitted rather than holding a few up as
examples. Therefore, I've pared the list of worthies down to those
three that I think most deserve it. The fact that two of them are
running for the same post just makes my decision that much more
difficult.

First, I am glad that Marcus Octavius Germanicus is running unopposed
for Curator Aranaea. He is diligent, level-headed, honorable, and all
sorts of other eminently laudable things. He is also a very good
programmer. His efforts to automate the censores' job and improve Nova
Roma's electronic infrastructure this year have been as extensive as
they are useful. I'm glad he'll be continuing this work.

Second, Marcus Minucius Audens deserves far more praise than he has
received for doing very well indeed in what has, I am certain, often
seemed like a thankless job. He has unapologetically worked to promote
Nova Roma and to improve Her according to his conscience and
convictions. At every turn, he has proven to me that he puts that which
he feels to be right before his reputation or his popularity.
Additionally, he chose to surround himself with very good people, and he
carefully considered those people's advice. It is a smart man and a
good leader who surrounds himself with talent. I recommend him without
reservation.

Finally, Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator has often referred to himself as a
guest in our house, as though he were an alien merely because he is a
Heathen. This is nonsense. He has steadily served the res publica and
its citizens in a myriad minor but indispensable ways. He is honorable,
affable, and a damn good guy to know. If you want to know what an
excellent Roman is like, just take a look in this so-called outsider's
direction.

Valete

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Debate
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 05 Dec 2000 20:16:04 -0600

Salvete Luci Corneli et alii

> Sunday, December 10 @ 11 am (California Time) at the Nova Roma
> Chatroom (Beseen Chatroom).

I will be incapable of attending this due to a prior commitment. I
suppose that, in order to fit with the tone of the campaigning so far, I
should mutter something unsubstantiated and unreasonable about
conspiracies and the partiality of those who chose the date and time.
For some reason, though, it just doesn't seem worth it.

However, I do hope that a transcript will be posted somewhere that I can
see it, and that I will be excused if I choose to respond to some
portions of it.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Debate
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 18:17:42 -0800

Actually, I went with Gn. Moravus's day and I chose the time....because it
seemed to be the most free based on the responses I have gotten. :)

Sorry if you think its biased, I tried not to be.

As for the transcript, I am going to try to keep one...hopefully Pomepia
might be able to assist me in this too.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
*only the debate organizer*
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fortunatus" <labienus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Debate

> Salvete Luci Corneli et alii
>
> > Sunday, December 10 @ 11 am (California Time) at the Nova Roma
> > Chatroom (Beseen Chatroom).
>
> I will be incapable of attending this due to a prior commitment. I
> suppose that, in order to fit with the tone of the campaigning so far, I
> should mutter something unsubstantiated and unreasonable about
> conspiracies and the partiality of those who chose the date and time.
> For some reason, though, it just doesn't seem worth it.
>
> However, I do hope that a transcript will be posted somewhere that I can
> see it, and that I will be excused if I choose to respond to some
> portions of it.
>
> Valete
> T Labienus Fortunatus
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Debate
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 05 Dec 2000 20:20:24 -0600

Salve Luci Corneli

> Also, I forgot to add, if you are unable to make it for the debate,
> but you have questions for the candidates, please forward your
> questions to me, I will ask those questions to the candidates, during
> the debate.

Hmm. Helps to read all of one's messages before one responds to some of
them, doesn't it? Since Pompeia Cornelia will be the moderator, I'll
send my questions to her to hold until the debate unless there's some
compelling reason to do otherwise.

Vale
T Labienus Fortunatus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Traditions or trappings? (was: What are we fighting for?)
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:26:48 -0500

Salvete;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nicolaus Moravius [mailto:n_moravius@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 6:46 PM
>
> I will draw a deep breath and explain to the Senior Censor that specifying
> the number of lictors every magistrate is to have, acquiring an army of
> lictores curiata and then wondering what to do with them, having voting
> centuries with only 2 people in... these are 'trappings'. These are what,
in
> NR reconstructionist terms, constitute 'political correctness'. On the
other
> hand...
>
> A comitia Plebis that worked because we had a greater number of Tribunes
> closer to that of old Rome, that's really core Roman stuff. But I really
do
> wonder sometimes whether you - or Germanicus - really understands the
> difference.

I am afraid I must disagree with my honored opponent for the office of
Consul.

To my mind, there are four categories of "Roman stuff" to be considered as
to whether or not it is something we wish to incorporate in Nova Roma:

1) Those things that existed in Roma Antiqua, but which are deemed
inappropriate for inclusion within Nova Roma's system at any stage in our
development. Among these I would include the institution of slavery and the
closure of public service and sufferage to women. I am tempted, obviously,
to keep this category as small as possible, as was expressed in our earliest
documents, and which is currently ensconced in our Constitution, which
reads, "Nova Roma shall endeavor to exist, in all manners practical and
acceptable, as the modern restoration of the ancient Roman Republic." To me,
that combined with our other founding documents means 'err on the side of
inclusion' of the ancient ways. One would hope that prospective Citizens
would have understood such sentiments, and agreed with them upon applying
for Citizenship.

2) Those things that existed in Roma Antiqua, and which are necessary for
adoption in Nova Roma even in our current "virtual" state. These include
those institutions we have already employed (the Senate, the magistracies,
the Comitiae), and are constantly being added to as we mature as a nation
and as our numbers make certain elements practical. In my estimation, these
elements should be brought in as unchanged as possible when they are brought
in, rather than bringing them in piecemeal and then correcting them
afterwards, unless such is absolutely necessary. The Centuries are a perfect
example of this; as our numbers are growing by leaps and bounds (and I
predict HUGE growth next year), and as more and more people enter public
service, the numbers within the centuries will even out. But isn't it better
to go through a year or two of awkwardness with two-person Centuries, rather
than to have to constantly tinker with the system as we grow? Where it is
practical to do so, put the system in place and let it do its work, I say.

Unfortunately (and I mention this because I know it is a 'hot button' with
some people), the Tribuni Plebis falls into the opposite category. It will
eventually be appropriate to have a full roster of Tribunes of the Plebs,
with full authority of intercessio, etc. But consider the times; for the
Tribunes to function as they did historically would be completely unworkable
as we are currently organized. In this case, as in a few other rare cases, a
compromise is required if only for Nova Roma to be able to function at all.
People complain that the government does too little as it is; can you
imagine what would happen with ten Tribunes issuing vetoes against any act
they happen to dislike? In a face-to-face situation, such powers and numbers
make more sense, but in our current situation it would be folly. (Not to
mention the fact that the Patrician abuse of the Plebeians which made the
Tribunician powers necessary does not exist here.) Which brings us to...

3) Those things that existed in Roma Antiqua, and which are unsuited for use
in our current "virtual" state, but which may be adopted if and when we
establish a more temporal existence. Here I would place the full powers and
numbers of the Tribuni Plebis, the full roster of the Vigintisexviri,
Apparitores, and so forth. I look forward to the day, perhaps not even in my
lifetime, where hundreds, perhaps thousands of Nova Romans live together on
our 108 acres, where almost all the varied and myriad instutions of Roma
Antiqua can be re-recreated. But that day is certainly not here yet, and
thus some things must wait their turn.

4) Those things that existed in Roma Antiqua, and which, while they are not
necessary for our reconstruction, do it no harm, and indeed add to the
flavor and possibly the pageantry of our society. Among these I include the
Lictores and (to some extent) the sponsored Legions. I will fully admit that
the Lictores, as we currently stand, are trappings. But they are harmless
trappings, and they have the potential to add color and pageantry to any
gatherings we might convene. They have the added bonus of being historical,
and actually holding a vital, if ceremonial, role in Roma Antiqua. (I
disagree that having the full number of Centuries is a trapping, because it
does work in its fashion, and will work much better as we grow without our
having to change it.) I happen to like the ceremonial aspects, and I think
that if we start stripping things away because they're "just ceremonial",
soon there will be nothing left.

Nicolaus Moravius Vado was right about one thing; this election is vital to
the future direction in which Nova Roma will go. I stand for the
continuation of our reconstructionist approach, and trying to be as close to
our historical model as possible and practical. He stands for drifting away
from history, and making Nova Roma into some sort of quasi-Roman
construction, drifting hither and yon according to the fashions of the day.
I happen to believe that those who joined Nova Roma did so with the
understanding that we were striving towards a reconstruction of the Roman
Republic, and will vote to keep us on that course.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul

http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] What are we fighting for?
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:29:38 -0500

Salve;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nicolaus Moravius [mailto:n_moravius@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 1:49 PM
>
> Oh dear. I see that Consular candidate Fl. edius Germanicus has lost his
> temper again and called me a liberal intellectual.

I am pained that you mistake having passion for the well-being of our great
Republic for anger. It is not anger, but love of Nova Roma, that motivates
me in this election.

To paraphrase your earlier words; I wonder if _you_ can understand the
difference.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul

http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Debate
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 05 Dec 2000 21:12:24 -0600

Salve Luci Corneli

> Sorry if you think its biased, I tried not to be.

To be explicit: I did not think it was biased. It's been a long day,
and I was being sarcastic. Yet more proof that I'm only human. My
apologies.

Vale
T Labienus Fortunatus

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Subject:	[novaroma] oath of office
From:	"Lucius Pompeius Octavianus" <danielovi@-------->
Date:	Wed, 06 Dec 2000 03:21:24 -0000

I, Lucius Pompeius Octavianus (born as Daniel Oscar Villanueva) do
hereby
solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in
the best
interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Lucius Pompeius Octavianus swear to
honor the
Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the
Roman
Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Lucius Pompeius Octavianus swear to uphold and defend the Religio
Romana as
the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that
would
threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Lucius Pompeius Octavianus swear to protect and defend the
Constitution of
Nova Roma.

I, Lucius Pompeius Octavianus further swear to fulfill the
obligations and
responsibilities of the office of Praetor of Provincia Argentina to
the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and
Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I
accept the position
of Praetor of Provincia Argentina and all the rights, privileges,
obligations, and
responsibilities attendant thereto.

-----------------

Spanish version - versi�n en Espa�ol.

Yo, Lucius Pompeius Octavianus (nacido como Daniel Oscar Villanueva)
juro
solemnemente por este acto defender el honor de Nova Roma, y actuar
siempre en los
mejores intereses del pueblo y el Senado de Nova Roma.

Como magistrado de Nova Roma, yo, Lucius Pompeius Octavianus juro
honrar los
Dioses y Diosas de Roma en mis asuntos p�blicos, y perseguir las
virtudes romanas
en mi vida p�blica y privada.

Yo, Lucius Pompeius Octavianus juro sostener y defender la Religio
Romana como
la religi�n de estado de Nova Roma y juro nunca actuar de una
manera
que
amenaze su estatus como religi�n de Estado.

Yo, Lucius Pompeius Octavianus, juro proteger y defender la
constituci�n de
Nova Roma.

Yo, Lucius Pompeius Octavianus, juro adem�s, cumplir con las
obligaciones y
resposabilidades de Praetor de la Provincia Argentina hasta la mejor
de mis habilidades.

Por mi honor como ciudadano de Nova Roma, y con la presencia de los
dioses y
diosas del pueblo romano y por sus voluntades y favores, acepto el
cargo de
Praetor de la Provincia Argentina y todos los derechos, privilegios,
obligaciones y responsabilidades
que acompa�an al mismo.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Thank you very much
From:	"Lucius Pompeius Octavianus" <danielovi@-------->
Date:	Wed, 06 Dec 2000 04:00:43 -0000

Lucius Pompeius Octavianus Senatoribus et Quiritibus omnibus S.P.D.

First of all, I wish to thank you very much for voting my petition.
Also, special thanks to L. Cornelius Sulla Felix for supporting and
encouraging me to request this petition. Also I am very grateful to
my dearest friend Pompeia Cornelia Strabo for encouraging me to apply
for the provincial praetorship. I wish to congratulate her for her
praetorship. Wonderful Pompeia!!. In the same way , I want to
congratulate quintus Sertorius for his propraetoship, and also to
congratulate M. Marcius Rex, and A.Iulius Caesar Macedonius.

Now, my duties begin, and I shall do the best of my efforts.

Valete bene et habete fortunam bonam

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Subject:	[novaroma] One Good Man.
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:08:12 -0600 (CST)

> I would like, for a moment, to set aside my own campaigning in order to
> say some good things about a few people.

Thank you, Tite Labiene.

I will return the compliment. In all the time that I have worked with
Titus Labienus Fortunatus, in our capacity as Censorial scribes, I have
considered him to be a man of the highest integrity and dedication.
Even on this critical day before the election begins, he has taken time
from his schedule to assist the Censors in providing the information
needed to complete the tribe and century assignments. In the Senate,
his arguments have been calm and well-reasoned, and he is respected by
both sides in any debate.

I am not eligible to vote for Tribunus Plebis, but if I were, I
would choose Titus Labienus Fortunatus.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma

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Subject:	[novaroma] ANNOUNCEMENT - Censorship Office.
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:00:14 -0800

Tonite is the last day that I am approving citizens for the election. I will be processing applications til about 6 am California time (Wednesday). After 6am, the Censorship office is closed for the hiatus of the elections.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Class Conlfict
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 00:48:55 EST

Vado, Vado!

This is truly disingenuous. Where is the "class struggle" when we bloody
well HAVE NO CLASS DIFFERENCES HERE?

Where are the statements that people should not vote for enthusiastic
newcomers "because they are:....?" Who is making them? Where?

And you yourself are SURELY a big part of that 5% that generates most of
the email here!

You're making this all up like a writer of cheap fiction - do you really
expect some poor newbies to swallow this stuff and rush to your support?
Vado the Savior of the Masses! Save us from "Them!"

This is too much! I know this kind of balogna has been traditional in our
election seasons, BUT... do you know no limits?????

Vale (ROFL),

Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
(candidate for Praetor)

On 12/5/00 5:59 PM Nicolaus Moravius (n_moravius@--------) wrote:

>Salutem
>
>Since Germanicus introduced the subject, I thought I'd offer my views on the
>Class Struggle in Nova Roma:
>
>I see two classes of people in NR, and two only:
>
>There are those who, when in office, challenge their critics by telling them
>that if they don't like something they should get elected to office
>themselves - then, when their critics do try to get elected, they tell the
>voters not to vote for them because they are:
>
>1. Inexperienced
>2. Too young
>3. Politically correct
>4. Liberal Intellectuals
>5. Rabid revolutionaries
>6. Greeks
>7. Trying to get things done as they would wish them done.
>
>These folk (who account for less than 5 per cent of Nova Roma's population
>but currently around 50 per cent of its public e-mails), when they feel
>threatened, wrap themselves up in a big toga of rank and dignitas with the
>broad purple stripe showing, puffing up like very big frogs in what is,
>after all, still a very little pond (and likely to remain so when those with
>different ideas are treated like this).
>
>Then there is the rest of us - whether plebeian, equestrian, patrician,
>senator or magistrate - who don't. I will be voting with and for the
>majority.
>
>Valete,
>
>Vado.
>

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

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Subject:	[novaroma] Rescheduled CANDIDATES FORUM
From:	"Rita Reali" <ritasax@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 6:8:30 -0800

Salvete Quirites

The Candidates Forum scheduled for today, Wednesday 6 Dec, has
been moved to

Sunday 10 Dec. GMT 20.00

12:00 PM PAC=3:00 PM EDST=9:00 PM CENT EURO=6:30 AM Monday S.
AUSTRALIA

Hostess Pompeia Cornelia Strabo

The panel of candidates shall appear in the Forum Romanorum
chat room, also known as the taverna.

The panel shall consist of

M. Marcius Rex

Vedius Germanicus

Cassius Julianus

Moravius Vado

Flavius Diocletianus

Cornelius Scipio

Apollonius Formosanus

Fabius Maximus

Each panel member shall in turn make one statement in three
lines. They will each then have an opportunity to ask a question of any of the
other candidates to respond to.

All Citizens are invited and encouraged to attend. We
ask that that you refrain from joining in the chat until the conclusion of our
Candidate Forum. Citizens will have an opportunity to then ask questions
of the candidates who remain available.

Sponsored by Gn. Moravius Piscinus and Cornelius Sulla
Felix

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Debate
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Wed, 06 Dec 2000 09:10:58 -0200

> Sunday, December 10 @ 11 am (California Time) at the Nova Roma
> Chatroom (Beseen Chatroom).

Translated to official NR Time this gives ?

M' Villius Limitanus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Debate
From:	"Marc " <RexMarcius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 06 Dec 2000 11:43:48 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Michel Loos <loos@u...> wrote:
> > Sunday, December 10 @ 11 am (California Time) at the Nova Roma
> > Chatroom (Beseen Chatroom).
>
> Translated to official NR Time this gives ?

According to the respective lex Cornelia that is:

9.00 pm

(Roman Time=GMT+1=Central European Time=Provincia Germania Time)

>
> M' Villius Limitanus

Marcus Marcius Rex
Propraetor Germaniae
Candidate for Censor

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Subject:	[novaroma] Pro Argentina
From:	Gian G Reali <piscinus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:19:19 -0800

Gn. Moravius Piscinus L. Pompeio Octavio et omnibus Civibus Provinciae
Argentinae SPD:

Congratulaions to the people of Provincia Argentina. The best of
Fortune to you, to your new province and for your new Praetor, Senator
Lucius Pomeius.

Gratulor et optimam fortunam vobis exopto.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Sodalitas Musarum
From:	Gian G Reali <piscinus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:44:15 -0800

Salvete Aeternia et Pompeia et alii

Warm thanks to Aeternia (*HUGGLES* Tink!) for inspiring the Musarum. A
very special thanks to Pompeia Cornelia who stepped in at a very
important time to assist in seeing the Musarum come to fruition. Without
the two of you this important step for all of us in Nova Roma could not
come about.

My heart is only saddened that another member of our committee has not
been able to share in this moment. I ask our Eternal Mother to watch
over our friend Lucilla Cornelia and her children. Bona Dea, mater
Ceres, eas semper servent.

My thanks to the Senate and to all the members of the committee that
worked to found the Sodalitas Musarum. I ask all cives Novae Romae and
all other subscribers to this list to join with the Sodalitas Musarum in
the studies of the ancient arts. May we all be guided by Minerva and
inspired by the Musae.

Curate ut valeatis.
Moravius Piscinus
Flamen Cerealis
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Subject:	[novaroma] Saturnalia!
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Wed, 06 Dec 2000 12:51:32 -0000

For those who are sick of election talk, I offer an alternate topic,
one with parties and presents in it.

We've got a major Roman holiday coming up! I refer, of course, to
Saturnalia, which was (like Christmas in most Western countries) not
only a religious festival, but also a chance for people to celebrate,
exchange gifts and have fun.

It runs a full seven days, from Dec. 17 to 23. This was after the
winter planting, and the original purpose was to honor Saturn, god of
seeds and sowing. Original traditions included a sacrifice to the god
(with head uncovered, according to Greek rather than Roman tradition),
a public banquet, and the shout of "Io Saturnalia!"

But that was just the official public part. In private, Romans adored
Saturnalia, and resisted attempts by Augustus to limit it to three
days. They exchanged gifts, particularly wax candles and small
earthenware statues. Gambling was allowed in public. Slaves didn't have
to work. Gentlemen could dine out in "business casual" -- the less
formal synthesis instead of the toga.

If you're looking for ideas on making Saturnalia a part of your holiday
celebration, check out this page on "Saturnalia Practices of the Nova
Romans," compiled in 1998:

http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/saturnalia.html

Patricia Cassia

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Saturnalia!
From:	marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
Date:	Wed, 06 Dec 2000 12:56:27 -0000

Salve Patricia,

a party? Not a political one, I hope? ;-))

Valete,
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Rescheduled CANDIDATES FORUM
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:21:11 -0500

Salvete, Quirites

The Candidates Forum scheduled for today, Wednesday 6 Dec, has
been moved to Sunday 10 Dec. GMT 20.00

12:00 PM PAC=3:00 PM EDST=9:00 PM CENT EURO=6:30 AM Monday S.
AUSTRALIA

Hostess Pompeia Cornelia Strabo

The panel of candidates shall appear in the Forum Romanorum
chat room, also known as the taverna.

The panel shall consist of

M. Marcius Rex

Vedius Germanicus

Cassius Julianus

Moravius Vado

Flavius Diocletianus

Cornelius Scipio

Apollonius Formosanus

Fabius Maximus

Sponsored by Gn. Moravius Piscinus and Cornelius Sulla
Felix
Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus: Does this mean that I cannot participate? Was there some deadline for joining, signing up? Anyway,Wasn't this suppose to be today? I was ready for it today.... because voting begins tomorrow.

Bene omnibus nobis.

Valete, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Augur

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Subject:	[novaroma] CORRECTION to Senate Voting Results
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:28:31 EST

Mistakes on top of mistakes! This was meant for the list but went only to
the Senator.

Trying once more....

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Salvete quirites!

Some of you may have been puzzling, as I was, over the fact that I have
listed votes for 17 senators but the vote totals indicate that 18 voted.

Senator Flavius Vedius Germanicus' votes somehow did not get to me and
the omission was overlooked in the process of compiling all those
individual posts, together with the Consules' totals, into one large
document.

I offer in my defense that I did this working late last night, again
early this morning before going to work (I was 15 minutes late), running
my iMac remotely from my office during a work break (thank goodness for
Timbuktu Pro), and again this evening before going out of town to a
squadron meeting (I was 20 minutes late to that one).

I am posting now a summary of Germanicus' "yes" and "no" votes on each
item. If he can send me a copy of his actual voting sheet with any
comments he made, I will revise the main document I posted earlier, to
include his contributions.

My apologies to Senator Germanicus and to any others who were
inconvenienced by the incompleteness of the tally.

Valete,

Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
Tribunus Plebis

Votes of Senator F. Vedius Germanicus:
__________________________________________
Item the First.
Reimbursement procedure for Magistrates of Nova Roma
Shall this be done?
F. Vedius Germanicus: NEGAT

Item the Second
It is proposed that Nova Roma enact the following policy on financial
controls
Shall this be done?
F. Vedius Germanicus: : VTI ROGAS

Item the Third
Legio V Alaudae (The Larks) request Nova Roma Sponsorship
Shall we sponsor the Legio?
F. Vedius Germanicus: : VTI ROGAS

Item the Fourth.
Incorporation of Switzerland into Province Germania.
Shall we do this?
F. Vedius Germanicus: : VTI ROGAS

Item the Fifth,
Certification of the Sodalitus Musarum as a Nova Roman Sodalitus.
Shall we do this?
F. Vedius Germanicus: : VTI ROGAS

Item the Sixth
Quintus Sertorius has asked to be considered for appointment as
Propraetor of Canada Occidentalis.
Shall he be appointed?
F. Vedius Germanicus: : VTI ROGAS

Item the Seventh
The Praetor of Germania has requested that Senate might approve the
opening
of the Limes Cooperation between the Provinces.
Shall we approve this?
F. Vedius Germanicus: : VTI ROGAS

Item the Eighth.
Additional Internal Senate Procedures.
A. The Senate shall conduct its business within full view of the
Citizenry. This will be implemented by allowing all Citizens to read
(but not post on) the Senate e-mail list. Exceptions are provided.
Shall we allow this?
F. Vedius Germanicus: NEGAT

B. II. The votes of individual Senators, along with any rationales they
offer with their votes (i.e., in the same e-mail as the vote itself),
will be made available to the Citizens by the Tribunes of the Plebs,
either by forwarding them to the main Nova Roma e-mail list or by
posting them to the Nova Roma web site.
Shall this be done?
F. Vedius Germanicus: : VTI ROGAS

Item the Ninth.
Change to the Electoral Procedure Re: Multiple Candidates
To ensure a consistent standard for future elections,
these two mutually exclusive proposals are now placed before
the Senate:
VOTE FOR BOTH or ABSTAIN.
A. "One Vote"
F. Vedius Germanicus: : VTI ROGAS

B. "Multiple Votes, Ties Awarded to All"
F. Vedius Germanicus: NEGAT

Item the tenth
Addition of a Third Rogator.
The third to act as backup
Shall this be done?
F. Vedius Germanicus: : NEGAT

Item the eleventh
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo requests to be Propraetor of Canada Orientalis.
Shall we allow her?
F. Vedius Germanicus: : VTI ROGAS

Item the Twelfth.
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus requests the creation of a province called
Argentina and requests the Provincial Praetorship.
Shall we create the Province?
F. Vedius Germanicus: : VTI ROGAS

Shall we make him the Provincial Praetor?
F. Vedius Germanicus: : VTI ROGAS

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Class Conlfict
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:35:19 -0500

Salvete;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nicolaus Moravius [mailto:n_moravius@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 6:00 PM
>
> Since Germanicus introduced the subject, I thought I'd offer my views on
the
> Class Struggle in Nova Roma:

In all fairness, I cannot take credit for the introduction of this subject
into the public discourse. That honor belongs to your comrade Piscinus, who
states on his election website:

"The true glory of ancient Rome resides in the noble deeds of common people,
the plebeians and their tribunes, who stood up for human dignity and social
justice against arbitrary rule. Their story is the spirit of Rome that so
inspired the modern world. It is their example, �the best of ancient Rome,�
that Nova Roma today endeavors to restore."

It was he who thus brought up the (hitherto non-existent) conflict of
Plebeian and Patrician this election season, not I. Indeed, he set the tone
and tenor of that debate when he asked me, "In your version of a future
judicial system for Nova Roma, do you seek to exclude the Plebeians?", which
is such a patently absurd bit of demagoguery that I won't even bother to
address it.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
candidate for Consul

http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Debate
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:34:30 -0600 (CST)

Salve Marce Marci,

> According to the respective lex Cornelia that is:
> 9.00 pm
> (Roman Time=GMT+1=Central European Time=Provincia Germania Time)

You can also see the current Roman time -- and thus calculate the
offset from your own -- by going to http://novaroma.org/main.html
and scrolling to the very bottom of the page.

The election starts at midnight tomorrow (Roman time), which is
equivalent to 5pm US Central time today. I have scheduled an
automated job on the server that will copy the new version
of the entrance page in place then, replacing the current
http://novaroma.org/cursus_honorum/voting/
at precisely the right time. The clock on the server was
set this morning and is accurate to within one second of
the time maintained by the US Naval Observatory.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma

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Subject:	[novaroma] Congratulor Provincia Praetori
From:	Gian G Reali <piscinus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:55:17 -0800

Salve Quinte Sertori et Luci Pompei et Pompeia Cornelia SPD:

Congratulations to each of you, the new provincial Praetori. The best
of Fortune to each of you and your provinces. May Ops grant you all Her
abundance.

Gratulor et optimam fortunam vobis semper exopto.

Curate ut valeatis.
Moravius Piscinus
Flamen Cerealis

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Subject:	[novaroma] Senate Voting Results - complete with all senators!
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:52:33 EST

Savete quirites!

COMPLETE Results of Voting on the November Senate Agenda

Proxies for A. Gryllus Graecus and M. Iunius were cast by L. Cornelius
Sulla
Proxies for M. Iucundia Flavia were cast by Q. Fabius Maximus

Item the First.
Reimbursement procedure for Magistrates of Nova Roma
Shall this be done?
L. Cornelius Sulla: No
A. Gryllus Graecis: No
M. Iunius: No
C. Aelius Ericius: No.
M. Cassius Julianus: NO. * The proposed procedure is an excellent start,
but was done in a hurry since there was a "crisis" over Censorial
funding. That has been dealt with in the short term, so there seems to be
time for everyone who has ideas to present them. This can be worked out
and completed next vote.
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas (yes).
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS. We have to start somewhere on
this, and most of the proposal is perfectly sensible
M. Minucius Audens: NO (Negat)! (I agree with my Colleague Senator
Germanicus that, in my view, to pass a flawed Consultum is far worse than
to wait for a reasonable time to get it right. There is a saying which
applies: "We never have the luxury to get it right the first time, but
always have sufficent resource to correct it!!!" )
C. Tullius Cicero: Negat, this has not been sufficiently discussed.
N. Moravius Vado: NEGAT/ANTIQUO/NO Good in principle, but I cannot
support it as it stands. It needs much more careful, unhurried work,
especially on detailed procedure for claiming, assessing claims,
reimbursement, and audit. I strongly suggest we co-opt a committee, from
citizens with professional experience, and including the Quaestores, for
encoding such procedures as proposed law. Project funding - in fact, the
whole issue of project management - needs a whole manual, not just part
of one Senatus Consultum.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Negat. This procedure was rewritten twice from varius
submissions. It still needs some tweaking. Suggest it is polished and
resubmitted for Dec. Call.
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS I agree with Cassia. We have to start
somewhere. If we keep changing the text, it will never get done.
M. Marcius Rex: NEGAT More time for discussion needed
T. Labienus Fortunatus: NEGAT There is much of value in this proposal,
but the quaestores' role is incorrect.
D. Iunius Palladius: Iunius Palladius votes no
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Antiquo (Negat/NO)
M. Octavius Germanicus: NEGAT. While a procedure is needed, this one has
the Quaestors choosing whether to approve an expense, which is not proper.
Flavius Vedius Germanicus: NEGAT There seem to be both structural and
grammatical errors with this proposal.
YES 3; NO 15; AB 0
ITEM 1 FAILS

Item the Second
It is proposed that Nova Roma enact the following policy on financial
controls
Shall this be done?
L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
M. Cassius Julianus: YES.
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS. Same points apply
M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, there should be a permanent treasury staff.
N. Moravius Vado: NEGAT/ANTIQUO/NO For reasons similar to those stated
above, I cannot give this my approval.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
M. Marcius Rex: Negat More time for discussion needed
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius abstains. I think that we should start
moving control of the
treasury towards a more permanent, professional staff.
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS.
Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS
YES 15; NO 2; AB 1;
ITEM 2 PASSES

Item the Third
Legio V Alaudae (The Larks) request Nova Roma Sponsorship
Shall we sponsor the Legio?
L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
M. Cassius Julianus: YES. * I also am not overly concerned over having
too many small legions. Sponsoring new startups only gives us an
opportunity to grow Legions which are more connected to Nova Roma, and
made up with a greater percentage of Citizens.
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. (While some have expressed concerns about
sponsoring too many small legions, I think this is exactly the purpose of
our sponsorship program - to give these legions a place to find one
another and arrange projects in cooperation.)
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, this is part of our goals.
N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES Though I feel we should not go on to
sponsor an infinity of legiones, as I said earlier, I wish them well.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas. Although we should start thinking of
requesting greater numbers of recruits in legiones before we grant them
sponsorship. Alaudae has a special place in my heart, since it was one
of the first legiones I constructed.
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS.
Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS I had originally suggested the
sponsorship program way back when, and am quite pleased that it is being
continued.
YES 18; NO 0; AB 0;
ITEM 3 PASSES

Item the Fourth.
Incorporation of Switzerland into Province Germania.
Shall we do this?
L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. * If there is later any objection from Italian,
French or Romany Swiss, we can adjust borders and/or name at that time.
I assume it will be considered the Regio of Helvitia.
M. Cassius Julianus: YES.
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas, though I wish we had been able to hear from
more actual
Helvetian Citizens before making this choice.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: ABSTINEO.
M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, I don't see the combination as a problem.
N. Moravius Vado: ABSTINEO/NO VOTE/ABSTAIN Although no French- or
Italian-speaking citizens have objected (I admit I do not know whether
there are any to object), there may be objections in future. Also, as
there is no one in this House to speak for the particular interests of
the cives of Gallia or Italia, I feel unable to support this motion. And
could we give the regio a more Roman name, like Helvetia, please?
Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas This will set the record straight.
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS Though what about all the French speaking
citizens? When I was there I thought they made up a third of the
population. Do they really want to be part of Germania?
M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. Yes, but if a French or
Italian-speaking citizen of Helvetica prefers to be considered part of
Gallia or Italia, I hope the censors would allow that.
Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS We are merely formally confirming
the status quo.
YES 16; NO O; AB 2;
ITEM 4 PASSES

Item the Fifth,
Certification of the Sodalitus Musarum as a Nova Roman Sodalitus.
Shall we do this?
L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
M. Cassius Julianus: YES.
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. May the Gods inspire them.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas
N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES This Sodalis will, divis volentibus,
enrich our cultural Romanitas and especially the Religio Romana.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS.
Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS
YES 18; NO 0; AB 0;
ITEM 5 PASSES

Item the Sixth
Quintus Sertorius has asked to be considered for appointment as
Propraetor of Canada Occidentalis.
Shall he be appointed?
L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. * [Much cheering, fanfares and flower petals!]
M. Cassius Julianus: At last! I vote an enthusiastic YES, and am
gratified that his patience held out long enough to see this done.
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. He has shown himself to be enthusiastic,
dedicated and energetic on behalf of Nova Roma.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, Sertorious is perfect for the position.
N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES He is a man of proven diligence,
enthusiasm, diligence and ability.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. He has worked hard for this, and will
make an excellent praetor.
Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS
YES 18; N0 0; AB 0;
ITEM 6 PASSES

Item the Seventh
The Praetor of Germania has requested that Senate might approve the
opening
of the Limes Cooperation between the Provinces.
Shall we approve this?
L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES. (And am in agreement that we should be
more proactive and work toward starting such efforts ourselves.)
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
C. Tullius Cicero: Abstaino. I am not clear on this issue.
N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES The sharing and emulation of best
practice, and mutual assistance, deserves approval. The Limes
Co-operation facilitates this. I speak from experience.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. Standards are a good thing.
Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS
YES 17; NO 0; AB 1;
ITEM 7 PASSES

Item the Eighth.
Additional Internal Senate Procedures.
A. The Senate shall conduct its business within full view of the
Citizenry. This will be implemented by allowing all Citizens to read
(but not post on) the Senate e-mail list. Exceptions are provided.
Shall we allow this?
L. Cornelius Sulla: No
A. Gryllus Graecis: No
M. Iunius: No
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
M. Cassius Julianus: NO
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. It is my understanding that in ancient Rome,
Senate discussions could be heard by (and were regularly discussed by)
Citizens while they were going on. It is also consistent with the idea of
helping Citizens of Nova Roma to feel more involved and to
contribute their knowledge and ideas.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: NEGAT. I am persuaded by the arguments of
Australicus on this point.
M. Minucius Audens: NO (Negat)! (I do not believe, in my view, that any
useful information can be gained by the Citizens of Nova Roma from
hearing deliberations on the Senate Floor, and I am likewise absolutely
certain that much harm and confusion would result from such a proposal.
Finally it does not appear to be historically correct. I honor Senator
Fortunatus for his abiliy to look past the immediate discussion, and
pledge to him my support in the future toward keeping the Citizens of
Nova Roma properly informed.)
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, I am satisfied with the restrictions.
N. Moravius Vado: NEGAT/ANTIQUO/NO As I have said before, if it proves
unworkable, it will be hard to revoke or amend. I would, however, support
any future proposal to allow individual citizens read-only access on
application (especially magistrates and other officials), for a limited
period and to a limited number at any time.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Negat. I have already made my reasons known. If the
Republic didn't do it, why should we? The Senators conducted business
out doors, until they had to debate topics. Then they went inside.
There had to be a reason for this. I think I was so they wouldn't be
intimidated by the populace.
M. Iucundia Flavia: NEGAT It was not done in old Rome. We are
attempting to recreate the Roman republic.
M. Marcius Rex: Negat I bow to Sergius Australicus for his
constitutional law opinion on this particular proposal.
T. Labienus Fortunatus: NEGAT I have, no doubt, surprised many with this
vote. I came into this debate much in favor of the idea, though I had
some slight qualms about the technicalities of its execution. I remain
torn between a desire to provide a transparent government and a wish to
maintain the mos maiorum. I have long argued that one of the major
questions facing Nova Roma is how much to keep of the old versus how much
to add of the new. It is not a question that will be answered quickly or
easily.
Additionally, the major reason that I originally felt that this body's
deliberations should be open to the populace is because of the tendency
to use senatus consulta to decide issues that should be taken before the
comitia. Often, we treat our decisions as though they create law, and we
have occasionally acted as though we have a right to discipline
individual citizens--effectively acting as a closed court in which the
accused is not even assured of being allowed to defend him or her self.
If we take onto ourselves the powers of the comitia, then we must be
exposed to scrutiny and answerable to the people for our decisions.
However, I am heartened by the fact that almost every candidate for major
office has made building the institutions necessary to rectify the
problem of the Senate's arrogation of powers that are not its by right
the center of his or her campaign. Therefore, in light of those campaing
promises, and in an optimistic spirit, I opt to maintain the mos maiorum.
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes no
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Antiquo (Negat/NO)
M. Octavius Germanicus: NEGAT. I refer once again to the line from Twain
(or Bismarck) about sausage-making.
Flavius Vedius Germanicus: NEGAT I am guessing, based on on the votes of
some of my colleagues, that we are to vote individually for each half of
this item. If I am mistaken in this
assumption, then my vote for the combined 8th item is NEGAT. (May I
suggest that in the future such items be split into two for clarity's
sake?)
YES 3; NEGAT 15; AB 0;
ITEM 8A FAILS

B. II. The votes of individual Senators, along with any rationales they
offer with their votes (i.e., in the same e-mail as the vote itself),
will be made available to the Citizens by the Tribunes of the Plebs,
either by forwarding them to the main Nova Roma e-mail list or by
posting them to the Nova Roma web site.
Shall this be done?
L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES, and suggest that there should be a
record of Senate votes posted to the website. No Senator should be
*forced* to explain their vote, but an option for such should definitely
be included.
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS.
M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas
N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES This House as an institution, and many
of its members as individuals, have suffered from an undeservedly
negative perception by the populus. I trust this will go a long way to
remedying the matter.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas. This has always been allowed. Lists were
often put up on the sides of the Rosta so those that could read could
inspect them.
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. Although the process itself should be
conducted in privacy, the people do have a right to know who supports
which items. Even though we are appointed for life, many of us run for
elected office as well, and should therefore be held accountable.
I also believe this to be historically correct, as the Tribunes (and
door-slaves) did inform the people what happened within the Curia.
Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS As long as this doesn't turn into
the "thin edge of the wedge", I don't see any harm in it. I haven't been
able to find anything that speaks of Senate votes being a secret ballot.
YES 17; NO 1; AB 0;
ITEM 8B PASSES

Item the Ninth.
Change to the Electoral Procedure Re: Multiple Candidates
To ensure a consistent standard for future elections, these two mutually
exclusive proposals are now placed before the Senate:
VOTE FOR BOTH or ABSTAIN.
A. "One Vote"
L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
C. Aelius Ericius: No.
M. Cassius Julianus: A. One vote. Octavius has made an excellent case
for this.
Patricia Cassia: A. One vote. I am persuaded by Octavius' arguments on
behalf of historical accuracy.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS. I am persuaded here by the
argument for consistency with Roma Antiqua and by the immediate
practicalities. I do think, however, that it is unfortunate that we have
attempted to have a full number of Centuries with a small number of
citizens. This rather destroys the point of the Century system,
irrespective of the silly results of treating a century as "tied" when
one citizen votes.
M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
C. Tullius Cicero: Negat. If there is more than one selection there must
be more than one vote to reflect the opinion of the citizen.
N. Moravius Vado: NEGAT/ANTIQUO/NO People have a right to vote for as
many candidacies as there are posts to be filled. Votes will be spoiled
as a result of misunderstandings. This will be contentious. Ancient
practice is not always best practice.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas. We do have to come up with a better system
eventually.
M. Iucundia Flavia: NEGAT This is not a full vote. It is half a vote.
Why should the citizens stand for that?
M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes **NO** on this item, which should
more properly be
called the "half a vote per voter proposal."
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. This fixes a flaw in our system in a
historically correct way. Each person selects *one* candidate for consul
or praetor, just as our ancestors did. A beneficial effect of this is
that both competing viewpoints will be represented in the Consulate, and
the consuls will serve as controls on each others power -- as the
founders of the Republic intended.
Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS My arguments in favor of this
option have already been presented.
YES 13; NO 5; AB 0;
ITEM 9A PASSES

B. "Multiple Votes, Ties Awarded to All"
L. Cornelius Sulla: No
A. Gryllus Graecis: No
M. Iunius: No
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: NEGAT, for the reasons above
M. Minucius Audens: NO (Negat)!
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, as above.
N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES It has been said that this system would
favour political parties. There are no political parties in NR. May the
gods spare us that! It has been said that this system gives people more
than one vote for each candidate. Mea sententia, it is better to give the
voters more votes than they ought to have, rather than deny them the
votes they ought to have.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Negat. Too many potental problems though I liked the
effort.
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS What problems? People get to vote for who
they want. Isn't this what it is all about?
M. Marcius Rex: NEGAT
T. Labienus Fortunatus: NEGAT A very good try, M Octavius.
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes YES
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Absto (abstain)
M. Octavius Germanicus: NEGAT. It seemed like a good idea at first,
mathematically and logically sound, but it is not historically correct,
it also encourages factionalism by allowing an entire "party" to be voted
in, and it changes the balance of power by allowing some votes to be
counted twice.
YES 5; NO 10; AB 3;
ITEM 9B FAILS

Item the tenth
Addition of a Third Rogator.
To include a third elected or appointed Rogator, with only two needed to
oversee the electoral process.
The third to act as backup
Shall this be done?
L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes*My comments on this proposal is that it should
be taking to the Comitia and the Lex Vedia amended. Otherwise according
to the Legal precedence
section in the Constitution, this Senatus Consulta means very little.
A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
C. Aelius Ericius says: It would help the Republic to function if we
had a couple
of spares for this highly essential post. We should so recommend this to
the Comitia.
M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES. I also agree with Germanicus that there
should actually be *four* trained Rogators at any time as opposed to
three.
Patricia Cassia: Assuming this is actually a recommendation to the
Comitia rather than an attempt to overturn a Lex (which we can't do), Uti
rogas.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS - provided that this is to be
understood as a recommendation for legislation, not as an
unconstitutional attempt to amend a lex by s.c.
M. Minucius Audens: NO (Negat)! (The item is not worded properly to be
voted upon by this August Body. A change in the proper Lex should be
submitted for approval and then voted upon by the people. Again, in my
view, a flawed Consultum is worse than no decision at all.)
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas
N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES
If the Senate is entitled to co-opt a Dictator in an emergency, it would
seem absurd for the Senate not to take ythe initiative to co-opt back-up
Rogatores (I would favour two), when the machinery of government is in
danger of breaking down. Consul Q. Fabius has every right to feel
exasperated. So do I. A general agreement to bend the rules of the
Constitution in cases such as those we have experienced this year, when
the Comitia cannot work and elections cannot be held is, I believe, fully
pardonable when a shortcoming in the Constitution has us backed into a
Catch-22 situation.
It is the spirit of the law, not the letter of it, which is important at
times like these. So I am voting for something that is unconstitutional
and therefore (technically) illegal. I hope it is the last time I shall
feel I need to do such a thing. I hope this passes the vote, and goes to
the Comitia for ratification (assuming we have enough Rogatores to allow
this to happen).
Q. Fabius Maximus: I say yes it should be done and sent to the Comitia
for ratification.
The Consules will write a lex and put it to the people next week.
M. Iucundia Flavia: NEGAT It is unconstitutional as written.
M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS I concur with Senator Labienus on this issue
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS I agree to this only inasmuch as we
shall secure a replacement for either of the two elected rogatores in
anticipation of the eventuality that one of them may prematurely lay down
the task. We do not have the power to alter a lex, and I urge the
consules to draft an appropriate lex and put it before the people during
the upcoming election.
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes NO
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Antiquo (Negat/No) As Germanicus pointed out this
is not something we can do, but I do think this should be something that
is on the first comtia call.
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. I am aware that the lex specifies two
Rogators; therefore the third must be strictly considered a backup, who
will assume the position when one of the primaries fails to fulfill their
duty.
Flavius Vedius Germanicus: NEGAT The Senate lacks the legal authority to
alter a Lex. The item, as presented, is unconstitutional in my opinion.
If it does pass, I would urge the Tribunes to exercise their power of
intercessio in such cases. (I would absolutely support a Senatus
Consultum that urges the Lex be amended by the Assembly...)
YES 13; NO 5; AB 0;
ITEM 10 PASSES LEX TO BE SENT TO THE COMITIA

Item the eleventh
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo requests to be Propraetor of Canada Orientalis.
Shall we allow her?
L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES. Pompeia Cornelia Strabo has proven
herself to be both dedicated and enthusiastic. I believe Nova Roma will
benefit greatly by having her in this office.
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. Pompeia Cornelia is a thoughtful and mature
person who will represent us well.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, Cornelia is well suited to the position. I
am pleased to see both Canadian positions will be filled for the first
time.
N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES She is as worthy of the office as Q.
Sertorius is of that of Propraetor Canadae Occidentalis, for the same
reasons.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Vti Rogas. Though is it my imagination or are most of
the Cornelii
Provincial Praetors?
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS.
Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS
YES 18; NO 0; AB 0;
ITEM 11 PASSES

Item the Twelfth.
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus requests the creation of a province called
Argentina and requests the Provincial Praetorship.
Shall we create the Province?
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES, although I agree that the province
should be called Argentinia.
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas (though I am with Germanicus in wishing it
were called Argentinia).
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas.
N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES Although I think it is more a matter of
the Senate approving what has already been created.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas.
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS.
Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS
YES 18; NO 0; AB 0;
ITEM 12a PASSES

Shall we make him the Provincial Praetor?
L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
M. Cassius Julianus: YES
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas.
N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES
Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS.
Flavius Vedius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS
YES 18; NO 0; AB 0;
ITEM 12b PASSES

Senator A. Probus cast the following votes too late to count:
Alexander Probus:
Item I - No
Item II -Yes
Item III - Yes
Item IIII - Yes
Item V - Yes
Item VI - Yes
Item VII - Yes
Item VIII - A - No
- B - Yes
Item VIIII - A - Yes
- B - No
Item X - Yes
Item XI - Yes
Item XII - Yes (with an additional note)
According to the last item I would like to post a question. What if few
years after we will have other citizens in Chile, Uruguai, Paraguai and
Bolivia? Will we create separate provinces for every national country or
will try to simpliify the things uniting some of them into one NR
province.
My opinion is to createa province with a different name than one national
state in the regio. That name may to be acceptable for the potential
citizens from all the national states in the regio. On the other hand
Argentina is a very big country so she could be a separate province. I
would
like to hear opinions on that issue of colleagues more experienced with
the
situation of America Australis.

End of voting record

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Valete,

Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
Tribunus Plebis

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Class Conlfict
From:	Piparskegg UllRsson <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Wed, 06 Dec 2000 08:31:42 -0600

Salvete!

I was Plebian.
I am now Patrician.
I don't feel conflicted.

--
===========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis, Benedicte Omnes!
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Cives, Paterfamilias Gens Ulleria
Qu�stor, Dominus Sodalis
My homestead
http://www.geocities.com/piparskegg/index.html
Nova Roma website
http://www.novaroma.org/main.html
Sodalis pro Coqueror et Coquus
http://www.egroups.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Three Good Men
From:	Piparskegg UllRsson <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Wed, 06 Dec 2000 08:45:10 -0600

Sallus et Fortuna Fortunatus,

Fortunatus wrote:

> T Labienus Quiritibus S P D
>
> I would like, for a moment, to set aside my own campaigning in order to
> say some good things about a few people.

(excision)

> Finally, Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator has often referred to himself as a
> guest in our house, as though he were an alien merely because he is a
> Heathen. This is nonsense. He has steadily served the res publica and
> its citizens in a myriad minor but indispensable ways. He is honorable,
> affable, and a damn good guy to know. If you want to know what an
> excellent Roman is like, just take a look in this so-called outsider's
> direction.
>
> Valete

Umm, being an atypical Heathen, I stand here ablush. I'm not one for
seeking a lot of praise, but I find it gratifying that my efforts are
appreciated.

I believe that Nova Roma is a Good Thing, regardless of the conflicts
between both sides of my ancestral heritage, regar dless of the
heatedness of the debate we see sometimes.

If my efforts in some small way help to lay the foundations for our
posterity to have a physical Forum on Nova Roman land, that too, makes
this worthwhile.

===========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis, Benedicte Omnes!
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Coves, Paterfamilias Gens Ulleria
Qu�stor, Dominus Sodalis
My homestead
http://www.geocities.com/piparskegg/index.html
Nova Roma website
http://www.novaroma.org/main.html
Sodalis pro Coqueror et Coquus
http://www.egroups.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq

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Subject:	[novaroma] Congratulations to the Sodalitas Musarum
From:	"Lucius Pompeius Octavianus" <danielovi@-------->
Date:	Wed, 06 Dec 2000 14:45:39 -0000

I wish to express my congratulations to the Sodalitas Musarum. Sorry
for the delay of this message. I wish a brilliant future for this
sodalitas

Valete bene et habete fortunam bonam

Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Praetor Provincia Argentina

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: [NRGallia_BelgicaBataviaD] Edictum Propraetoris Galliae (Nederlandse vertaling)
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 14:04:09 +0100

--------DUTCH TRANSLATION - NEDERLANDSTALIGE VERTALING--------
(as done by Sextus Apollonius Draco, Legatus Borealis)
(zoals gedaan door Sextus Apollonius Draco, Noordelijke Legaat)

EDICTUM PROPRAETORIS GALLIAE m.b.t. het uitbouwen van een Gallische website

Als eerste stap in de richting van een georganiseerde en bloeiende Provincia Gallia is er besloten een site te maken, gewijd aan de Provincie en aan de hoofdsite van Nova Roma, evenals aan de andere Provinciae die onder deze administratie vallen.

De site heeft als voornaamste doelstellingen:
I.- De interesse op te wekken voor Nova Roma bij bezoekers van het net die misschien toekomstige NR-burgers zijn
II.- De geschiedenis van Gallia presenteren doorheen de tijdperken, tot de huidige, in verband met de Romeinse geschiedenis
III.- De Gallische burgers voor te stellen
IV.- Gemakkelijke contacten te voorzien via een discussieforum/chat, de 'NR Gallia Taverna' gedoopt
V.- De site zal multilinguaal zijn: Nederlandstalig, Franstalig en Engelstalig

Om dit te doen benoem ik Quintus Apollonius Flaccus, Gallisch burger van Nova Roma, tot Gallisch Retiarus (het is te zeggen: webmaster van de Gallische netwerken, daar een retiarus meester was van de netten), met het doel deze site te construeren en te beheren in samenwerking met de Propraetor en de Legati.

FIAT !

I. Querius Armoricus Lutecio
Propraetor Provinciae Galliae

Facto in Lutecia (5-12-2000)

Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
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Subject:	[novaroma] Congratulations!
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 14:25:42 +0100

Salvete omnes,

In this time of political desparation, I'd like to extend my congratulations to the newly appointed Propraetores. May they serve our Res Publica well!

Also, my congratulations for my fellow Delecti for the final approvement of the Sodalitas Musarum - hard work pays off, finally :-).

Valete!
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Things To Do
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:23:06 +0100

Salve Censor Luci,

> Ave, I think the answer is somewhat apparent. Jealousy. They didnt think
> of it first NOR start it first, so they beat down the person who has. Me.
> Hey, it doesnt matter to me who starts it, just as long as it gets
started.
> I just think its interesting that it takes an ELECTION and a CAMPAIGN for
> these ideas to come out? What happened thorughout the entire year? Where
> were your ideas when you were just a citizen? Not a candidate for Consul?

... "just" a citizen?? I seem to have forgotten that we have no class war,
nor do we have a class conflict here, mi Luci, as has been alleged by some
people here. By the way, I don't think you should be attacking Vado with
injust criticism - he is quite an active citizen here on the main list. This
cannot be said, on the other hand, of some other candidates that rose from
the grave here in their whitened toga.

> The only original idea that Vado had was an attempt to draw public support
> in an an impeachment proceeding of myself. In that sense he tried to
> disrupte the government of Nova Roma. And, in doing so he would have
caused
> irrepairable damage to the Republic. But, I must give him credit, that is
> the only action that Vado has done that was creative and original. But,
> would it have been good for Nova Roma?

Could you clearfiy what sort of irrepairable damage would have been caused?
If there really was an impeachment attempt, and it failed because it was
injust, then there would never have been irrepairable damage. On the other
hand, if the Senate agreed to remove you from office, would this be
irrepairable? And would this be damage? My idea is that if the 'disrupting'
impeachment had actually been done by the Senate (and that doesn't take just
one Senator), it would be to prevent damage rather than to cause it. Was it
an act from Vado 'against the state'? Are you 'the state'? I think not.

Vale,
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
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Subject:	[novaroma] Reply to Priscilla Vedia
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:26:57 +0100

Salve Priscilla Vedia,

> Perhaps I am confused, but by "among the Amici Dignitatis", do you refer
to
> those individuals who signed the declaration, or simply to those cives who
> have subscribed to the Amici Dignitatis list? Specifically, I have looked
> back at the original declaration (or at least the first to be posted
> publicly) and the honorable Cassius was not, in fact, a signatory. He may
> very well have signed in the meantime, but I am unaware of it if he has,
yet
> you reference him as a "member".

Cassius is indeed only a list member, as you are. The list of signees is
available at our eGroups site. The Amici Dignitatis are the sponsors of the
forum, but the Dignitas Forum itself is merely an information centre for
political topics and items, and totally neutral in se.

Vale bene!
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
<< PETITOR AEDILIS PLEBIS >>
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Cursus Honorum - a new lex!
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:35:47 +0100

Salvete,

<snip>

> No one has stated we SHOULD have a legislated Cursus Honorum. I was
> responding to Sextus Apollonius's comments about a "what if" scenario if a
> deranged Censor got into that office and started publishing Edicta.
>
> There are a number of checks that would prevent that action from occuring,
> IMHO. Examples would be:
>
> Colleague Intercessio
> Tribinue Veto
> Senatus Consulta overriding the Edicta
> A Lex promulgated from the People.

Yes, you are quite right. But my specific scenario case was that Censor
Insanus (hypthetical, of course, I hope there's no one around bearing that
cognomen!) had the support of a Tribunus Plebis. Although such an occurrence
in which that Censor could do whatever he pleases would be rare, and as you
pointed out there are a few ways to prevent it, I suppose I'm not truly
convinced. Even a well-organized power usurper with some support among
various Magistrates and Senators could do some drastic things here. The
system as we have it now, with the checks and balances, is fine, but often
reality can differ from theory. The Vedian constituion is a good basic
corpus, but I think that it could use a few tentacles ;-). Many roles of
many magisrates are not narrowly enough defned, imho, except from the number
of lictores one may have ;-).

> My comment about legislating the Cursus Honorum would have prevented that
> type of abuse as well. I hope everyone now understands the post that I
made
> in regard to legislating a Cursus Honorum. So, my stressing legislating
the
> Cursus Honorum was only in regrad to countering Sextus's comments.

My idea was not to legislate the Cursus Honorum, and I'm still against it,
although requesting a potential Censor to have at least filled the position
of Praetor, Consul or provincial governor at least once would be a good idea
I think.

Valete,
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Class Conlfict
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:52:08 +0100

Salve Australice,

> This is truly disingenuous. Where is the "class struggle" when we bloody
> well HAVE NO CLASS DIFFERENCES HERE?

*blinks in amazement*. We have different classes, you know. That word
implies that there are differences. Although they are not large differences,
as I admit, there are some, as has been pointed out here recently.

> Where are the statements that people should not vote for enthusiastic
> newcomers "because they are:....?" Who is making them? Where?

We have been accused of being Athenian reconstructionists, political fashion
butterflies, and destroyers of Nova Roma. You are one of those people who
have accused the AD in this manner. I can look up the posts if you want me
to.

> And you yourself are SURELY a big part of that 5% that generates most of
> the email here!

So are you. And I.

> You're making this all up like a writer of cheap fiction - do you really
> expect some poor newbies to swallow this stuff and rush to your support?
> Vado the Savior of the Masses! Save us from "Them!"
>
> This is too much! I know this kind of balogna has been traditional in our
> election seasons, BUT... do you know no limits?????

I'd advise you to cool down for a while. If you lose your temper, you lose
the game. And there's too much at stake.

Vale bene,
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
<< PETITOR AEDILIS PLEBIS >>
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Class Conlfict
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:41:15 +0100

Salve Marce Octavi,

> > Then there is the rest of us - whether plebeian, equestrian, patrician,
> > senator or magistrate - who don't. I will be voting with and for the
> > majority.
>
> I see yet another small group of less than five percent -- those who
> are obsessed with overturning an edict that was arrived at as a
> compromise after a long period of debate, and who are absolutely
> opposed to any sort of compromise on this issue. I see a small group
> of less than five percent who seek to divide the populace by
> inventing imagined conspiracies of patricians oppressing
> plebeians, or "optimates" oppressing "populares" (aka "dignitas").

I would suggest that you use the names of your enemies rather than to
stick'em with the etiquet of "Dignitas". The Amici are various people, some
of them are people whom you respect, others aren't. Specify whom you mean.
Am I your enemy? Is Fortunatus? Is Livia Cornelia? We promote democratic and
progressive principles, and in our Statement, there is no talk whatsoever
about any kind of edictum.

> I see a small group of people who falsely claim to be a "majority"
> even though they are but a mere handful.

Prove this claim. We never said this, according to my knowledge.

Vale bene,
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Traditions or trappings? (was: What are we fighting for?)
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:44:49 +0100

Salve, Vedi,

<big snip>

> Nicolaus Moravius Vado was right about one thing; this election is vital
to
> the future direction in which Nova Roma will go. I stand for the
> continuation of our reconstructionist approach, and trying to be as close
to
> our historical model as possible and practical. He stands for drifting
away
> from history, and making Nova Roma into some sort of quasi-Roman
> construction, drifting hither and yon according to the fashions of the
day.
> I happen to believe that those who joined Nova Roma did so with the
> understanding that we were striving towards a reconstruction of the Roman
> Republic, and will vote to keep us on that course.

I agreed with many of your points you made in your posting, but this one
made me frown. Specify your accusation of a "quasi-Roman"-construct. Do we
say we want to alternate Nova Roma to "the fashions of the day"? None of us
says that, and I may hope none of us implies, it, either. We are all
reconstructionists, but some have other opinions on how to reconstruct, than
others do.

Vale bene!
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
<< PETITOR AEDILIS PLEBIS >>
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Sodalitas Musarum
From:	SyanneRose@--------
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:56:55 EST

Salvete Piscinus et Omnes!

My thanks Piscinus, and I also share your in sadness. Lucilla Cornelia
Aurelia Antonina was a great friend and she is dearly missed. May the Great
Mothers Juno and Cerridwen bless her and her wee ones, for I mote it be.

Valete
Aeternia

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Subject:	[novaroma] My Thanks and Appreciation
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:06:26 -0500 (EST)

Salvete, Citizens of Rome;

I am extremely flattered by the comments of both ProPraetor Pompeia
Strabo and Senator Fortunatus. I hereby offer my extreme appreciation
and thanks for your very kind words and for your consideration in taking
precious time from your own campaigns and offices to honor me in this
way.

I also wish to offer my Congratulations to the new ProPraetors and wish
you well in your endeavors. I am confident that the provinces now under
your guidance will prosper and flourish.

I would also like to offer my belated humble congratulations to the new
Pontiffs in the Pontifical College, and wish them well in thier
endeavors.

Lastly, I again offer my belated congratultions to the new Senators in
Nova Roma. Each of you has distinguished himself by significant service
to Nova Roma, and in recognition of that service I welcome you with
heartfelt sincerity to this August Body. It is a rough and tumble world
this Nova Roma Senate of ours, but you have all indicated your
resilience, dedication and your ability to work hard for Nova Roma. I
am confident that you will all do well and advance the interests of this
micronation to a new high. My best wishes and best welcome to you and I
am very pleased to have you as Colleagues and fellow Senators.

Valete, Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens
Consul et Senator

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	[novaroma] Thankyou!!
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Wed, 06 Dec 2000 15:15:07 -0000

Salvete Omnii!

I would like to publically thank the Senate of Nova Roma for granting me the
privilege of the office of Propraetrix of Canada Orientalis.

I shall do all I can for my Provincia and its citizens.

I have made many friends in Nova Roma, and I would like to thank everyone
concerned for their personal support, and their friendship.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix has been a great Pater to me, and I thank you
sincerely, Sulla, for all your have done for me as Pater, but particularily,
I thank you now for your support and encouragement in my decision to request
this appointment.

My thanks to my fellow Corneliae for their friendship and good wishes.

My thanks to Marcus Minucius Audens and his Accensii (advisors) for all I
have learned from them. I look forward to my continued Sodalitates work
with Consul Audens.

My best wishes to all of you, always :)

Pompeia Cornelia Strabo

_____________________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Standing for Curule Aedile
From:	nramos@--------
Date:	Wed, 06 Dec 2000 15:18:31 -0000

Salve Quirites!

Unless I have missed something, only one worthy frater has put on the
toga candidata for Curule Aedile. In the interest of bringing up some
discussion for the post, and in amicitia, I will also stand for Curule
Aedile.

I am a candidate for Praetor Urbanus (wish we had a Praetor
Peregrinus
:-)) also - but dual magistracies are not unheard of. Also, I think
we
should at least get to know our candidates by establishing a
dialogue
with them, with the benefit of alternate points of view.

May the Gods protect us all, and may Nova Roma always be favored by
Bona Fortuna!

Marius Cornelius Scipio

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Class Conlfict
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:26:02 -0500

Salvete;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: S. Apollonius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 9:41 AM
>
> > I see a small group of people who falsely claim to be a "majority"
> > even though they are but a mere handful.
>
> Prove this claim. We never said this, according to my knowledge.

If I may interject, I believe Marcus Octavius Germanicus was referring to
the original post in this thread by Vado, in which he said, "These folk (who
account for less than 5 per cent of Nova Roma's population but currently
around 50 per cent of its public e-mails).... Then there is the rest of us -
whether plebeian, equestrian, patrician, senator or magistrate - who
don't. I will be voting with and for the majority."

So yes, my young Draco. One of your comrades did, in fact, claim to speak
for and belong to the majority.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul

http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Reply to Priscilla Vedia
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Wed, 06 Dec 2000 08:33:58 -0700

Salvete Priscilla Vedia, et alii:

I think I got this particular piece started. As a late
signer on to the statement of the Amici Dignitatis only
after it was first published to the main list, I believe I
misinterpreted the distinction between a "list member" and a
"statement signer", and so thought the Cassii were signers
to the statement and made reference as such.

My humble apologies to all concerned for the mistake.

Livia Cornelia Aurelia

"S. Apollonius Draco" wrote:

> Salve Priscilla Vedia,
>
> > Perhaps I am confused, but by "among the Amici
> Dignitatis", do you refer
> to
> > those individuals who signed the declaration, or simply
> to those cives who
> > have subscribed to the Amici Dignitatis list?
> Specifically, I have looked
> > back at the original declaration (or at least the first
> to be posted
> > publicly) and the honorable Cassius was not, in fact, a
> signatory. He may
> > very well have signed in the meantime, but I am unaware
> of it if he has,
> yet
> > you reference him as a "member".
>
> Cassius is indeed only a list member, as you are. The list
> of signees is
> available at our eGroups site. The Amici Dignitatis are
> the sponsors of the
> forum, but the Dignitas Forum itself is merely an
> information centre for
> political topics and items, and totally neutral in se.
>
> Vale bene!
> Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
> << PETITOR AEDILIS PLEBIS >>
> Legatus Galliae Borealis,
> Procurator Galliae,
> Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
> --**--
> There are no bad guys. Just disturbed guys.
> --**--
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> --**--
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>
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Subject:	[novaroma] Candidate Lists
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:27:39 -0600

6 Dec 2000

Salve All

I would like to know if anyone can help me as to how I can find a list of updated candidates for all the offices up for election. There are election web sites, but I have seen posts where citizens have declared themselves, but I have not seen their names added to any lists! Is there an official list that is update to reflect the most current list of candidates?

Vale

Quintus Sertorius

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Subject:	[novaroma] Sodalitas Musarum
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Wed, 06 Dec 2000 15:38:56 -0000

Salvete Omnii!

I would like to extend further thanks to the Nova Roma Senate for their
approval of Musarum as an official Sodalitas of Nova Roma.

My thanks to the Delectii (organizing committee) of Musarum for their hard
work and dedication. This would simply have not happened without you.

Last, but most certainly not least, I would like to acknowledge that the
idea of Musarum was conceptualized by a young lady we affectionately refer
to as Tink.

Last June or so, Tink took the initiative and opened up an Egroups mail list
called "For the Muses", seeing a need for Nova Roma citizens to share prose,
poetry, history, etc. This list entertained a good deal of "traffic".
Shortly thereafter, plans for a proposed Sodalitas emerged. Great
brainstorming, Tink!!

Again, I am so pleased and grateful for this decision from the Senate.

Bene valete!!
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
_____________________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Traditions or trappings? (was: What are we fighting for?)
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:48:36 -0500

Salvete;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: S. Apollonius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 9:45 AM
>
> I agreed with many of your points you made in your posting, but this one
> made me frown. Specify your accusation of a "quasi-Roman"-construct. Do we
> say we want to alternate Nova Roma to "the fashions of the day"? None of
us
> says that, and I may hope none of us implies, it, either. We are all
> reconstructionists, but some have other opinions on how to reconstruct,
than
> others do.

I'm afraid, my young Draco, that the email archives do not bear out your
statement. Have you forgotten Formasanus' (surely one of the "us" you refer
to if anyone is) famous post to the Amici Dignitas list entitled _The
Movement_, wherein he made the statement "Taxes and their appropriation
should be clearly under the control of the Populus, not the senate, in a
manner consistent with modern states."?

And of course his later missive in that same forum entitled _How to forget
Marius_; "We must put legislation in place, or remove it, so that all sexual
minority citizens can have names of good Roman and Latin form in the
grammatical gender corresponding to their stated social gender without
further complication or bureaucratic harassment."

Your compatriots, Vado and Piscinus, have expressed support for similar
legislation, I believe.

Please be so good as to point out where either of those legislative
initiatives were in place in Roma Antiqua. I may not hold an M.A. in
Classical Studies, but I'm pretty sure the concept of "social gender" is a
modern one...

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul

http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Candidate Lists
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:45:55 -0600 (CST)

> Salve All
>
> I would like to know if anyone can help me as to how I can find a list of
> updated candidates for all the offices up for election.

Here's what I have:

Censor; Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus;
Censor; Marcus Marcius Rex;

Consul; Flavius Vedius Germanicus;
Consul; Marcus Cassius Iulianus;
Consul; Nicolaus Moravius Vado;

Praetor; Caius Flavius Diocletianus;
Praetor; Marcus Apollonius Formosanus;
Praetor; Quintus Fabius Maximus;
Praetor; Lucius Sergius Australicus;
Praetor; Marcus Cornelius Scipio;

Curule Aedile; Titus Sertorius Albinus;
Curule Aedile; Marius Cornelius Scipio;

Plebeian Aedile; Sextus Apollonius Draco;
Plebeian Aedile; Marcus Arminius Maior;

Tribunus Plebis; Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus;
Tribunus Plebis; Titus Labienus Fortunatus;
Tribunus Plebis; Gnaeus Moravius Piscinus;
Tribunus Plebis; Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar;
Tribunus Plebis; Alexander Iulius Caesar Probus Macedonius;

Quaestor; Gaius Africanus Secundus Germanicus;
Quaestor; Patricia Cassia;
Quaestor; Secunda Cornelia Valeria;
Quaestor; Lucilla Cornelia Cinna;
Quaestor; Caeso Fabius Quintilianus;
Quaestor; Marcus Minucius Audens;
Quaestor; Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator;
Quaestor; Lucius Tiberius Sardonicus;

Curator Araneae; Marcus Octavius Germanicus;
Curator Sermonis; Priscilla Vedia Serena;

Rogator; Marcus Mucius Scaevola Magister;
Rogator; Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus;
Rogator; Quintus Iulius Camillus Caesar;

Note that this is part of the config file used by the program that
presents the ballot - so if you should be listed and you're not,
please contact me immediately!

Vale, Octavius.

---
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Candidate Lists
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:40:47 -0600

6 Dec 2000

Salve

That was quick! Thank you very much for this updated list.

Vale

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marcus Octavius Germanicus" <haase@-------->
To: "Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Cc: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Candidate Lists

>
> > Salve All
> >
> > I would like to know if anyone can help me as to how I can find a list
of
> > updated candidates for all the offices up for election.
>
> Here's what I have:
>
> Censor; Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus;
> Censor; Marcus Marcius Rex;
>
> Consul; Flavius Vedius Germanicus;
> Consul; Marcus Cassius Iulianus;
> Consul; Nicolaus Moravius Vado;
>
> Praetor; Caius Flavius Diocletianus;
> Praetor; Marcus Apollonius Formosanus;
> Praetor; Quintus Fabius Maximus;
> Praetor; Lucius Sergius Australicus;
> Praetor; Marcus Cornelius Scipio;
>
> Curule Aedile; Titus Sertorius Albinus;
> Curule Aedile; Marius Cornelius Scipio;
>
> Plebeian Aedile; Sextus Apollonius Draco;
> Plebeian Aedile; Marcus Arminius Maior;
>
> Tribunus Plebis; Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus;
> Tribunus Plebis; Titus Labienus Fortunatus;
> Tribunus Plebis; Gnaeus Moravius Piscinus;
> Tribunus Plebis; Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar;
> Tribunus Plebis; Alexander Iulius Caesar Probus Macedonius;
>
> Quaestor; Gaius Africanus Secundus Germanicus;
> Quaestor; Patricia Cassia;
> Quaestor; Secunda Cornelia Valeria;
> Quaestor; Lucilla Cornelia Cinna;
> Quaestor; Caeso Fabius Quintilianus;
> Quaestor; Marcus Minucius Audens;
> Quaestor; Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator;
> Quaestor; Lucius Tiberius Sardonicus;
>
> Curator Araneae; Marcus Octavius Germanicus;
> Curator Sermonis; Priscilla Vedia Serena;
>
> Rogator; Marcus Mucius Scaevola Magister;
> Rogator; Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus;
> Rogator; Quintus Iulius Camillus Caesar;
>
> Note that this is part of the config file used by the program that
> presents the ballot - so if you should be listed and you're not,
> please contact me immediately!
>
> Vale, Octavius.
>
> ---
> M. Octavius Germanicus
> Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Congratulations!!
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Wed, 06 Dec 2000 16:00:06 -0000

Salvete Novae Romae!!

I would like to express my joy and congratulations to those who have
received Senatoral appointments and approval. You are good people and you
are more than deserving ! :)

***Quintus Sertorius: appointed Propraetor Canada Occidentalis. Quinte,
you have worked hard in the Consular Office,in Militarium, and in projects
in Canada. I look forward to cooperating with you for the benefit of both
our provincia in Canada. I shall be in touch :)

***Lucius Pompeius Octavianus: Propraetor of Novus Provincia Argentina;
Pompe, you are very capable and deserving of this appointment. You are very
versed in Roman Culture, as your website demonstrates! My best to you
always...you will do great things in your provincia for Nova Roma

***Alexander I.C. Probus....Propraetor Pannonia et Senator. You are
intelligent, diplomatic, and you have demonstrated genuine concern for all
peoples within Nova Roma. And you certainly know an awful lot about
Pannonia antiquita! I wish you the very best.

***Senator et Propraetor Marcius Rex: I am pleased at the outcome of the
Senate voting with respect to the Limes Initiatives. Congratulations, sir.

I look forward to working with you all in the future, in my capacity as
Propraetrix Canada Orientalis, effective Jan. 1 2753 AUC.

AVE!!!
Pompeia Cornelia
_____________________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Congratulations!!
From:	SyanneRose@--------
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:48:29 EST

Ave Pompeia et Omnes,

My, Frater also a Pro-Praetor??? Congratulations Alexander!!!!! Woohoo!!!!!
Again my congratulations to all the Pro-Praetors, and our newly appointed
Senator Marcius Rex.

Valete
Aeternia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rescheduled CANDIDATES FORUM
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 06 Dec 2000 09:33:56 -0800

Lucius, PLEASE feel free to participate.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

Lucius Equitius wrote:

> Salvete, Quirites
>
> The Candidates Forum scheduled for today, Wednesday 6 Dec, has
> been moved to Sunday 10 Dec. GMT 20.00
>
> 12:00 PM PAC=3:00 PM EDST=9:00 PM CENT EURO=6:30 AM Monday S.
> AUSTRALIA
>
> Hostess Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
>
> The panel of candidates shall appear in the Forum Romanorum
> chat room, also known as the taverna.
>
> The panel shall consist of
>
> M. Marcius Rex
>
> Vedius Germanicus
>
> Cassius Julianus
>
> Moravius Vado
>
> Flavius Diocletianus
>
> Cornelius Scipio
>
> Apollonius Formosanus
>
> Fabius Maximus
>
> Sponsored by Gn. Moravius Piscinus and Cornelius Sulla
> Felix
> Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus: Does this mean that I cannot participate? Was there some deadline for joining, signing up? Anyway,Wasn't this suppose to be today? I was ready for it today.... because voting begins tomorrow.
>
> Bene omnibus nobis.
>
> Valete, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Augur
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Something Completely Different
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:57:28 US/Central

Salvete

This has nothing to do with elections, Rome, or the price of tea. However, I
found it amusing.

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Senate Voting Results
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?WWFubiBRdely6Q==?= <yquere@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:57:04 +0100

I.Querius Armoricus Lutecio Omnibus SPD
Salvete

First of all congratulations to the new magistrates !!!
Quintus Sertorius as Propraetor Canada Occidentalis
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus as Propraetor Novae Provinciae Argentinae
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo as Propraetrix Canada Orientalis
I'm a new Propraetor myself, feel free to contact me if you need.

I would also like to congratulate every citizen involved in the Limes
Cooperation, that Gallia is preparing to join shortly, especially my
neighbor Propraetor of Germania for initiating the cooperation.

I would like to react to the annexion of Switzerland to Provincia Germania.
I do approve the vote of the Senate, for Helvetia needs to be attached to a
NR administration, and I am sure Germania is far better organized than
Gallia for the moment.
But I do demand quite a flexibility to the Censors if a french or
italian-speaking new citizen feels easier to join Gallia or Italia.

I.Querius Armoricus Lutecio
Propraetor Provinciae Galliae

----- Original Message -----
From: Ira Adams <iadams@-------->
Cc: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 1:24 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Senate Voting Results

> Savete quirites!
>
> Results of Voting on the November Senate Agenda
> Proxies for A. Gryllus Graecus and M. Iunius were cast by L. Cornelius
> Sulla
> Proxies for M. Iucundia Flavia were cast by Q. Fabius Maximus
>
> Item the First.
> Reimbursement procedure for Magistrates of Nova Roma
> Shall this be done?
> L. Cornelius Sulla: No
> A. Gryllus Graecis: No
> M. Iunius: No
> C. Aelius Ericius: No.
> M. Cassius Julianus: NO. * The proposed procedure is an excellent start,
> but was done in a hurry since there was a "crisis" over Censorial
> funding. That has been dealt with in the short term, so there seems to be
> time for everyone who has ideas to present them. This can be worked out
> and completed next vote.
> Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas (yes).
> M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS. We have to start somewhere on
> this, and ost of the proposal is perfectly sensible
> M. Minucius Audens: NO (Negat)! (I agree with my Colleague Senator
> Germanicus that, in my view, to pass a flawed Consultum is far worse than
> to wait for a reasonable time to get it right. There is a saying which
> applies: "We never have the luxury to get it right the first time, but
> always have sufficent resource to correct it!!!" )
> C. Tullius Cicero: Negat, this has not been sufficiently discussed.
> N. Moravius Vado: NEGAT/ANTIQUO/NO Good in principle, but I cannot
> support it as it stands. It needs much more careful, unhurried work,
> especially on detailed procedure for claiming, assessing claims,
> reimbursement, and audit. I strongly suggest we co-opt a committee, from
> citizens with professional experience, and including the Quaestores, for
> encoding such procedures as proposed law. Project funding - in fact, the
> whole issue of project management - needs a whole manual, not just part
> of one Senatus Consultum.
> Q. Fabius Maximus: Negat. This procedure was rewritten twice from varius
> submissions. It still needs some tweaking. Suggest it is polished and
> resubmitted for Dec. Call.
> M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS I agree with Cassia. We have to start
> somewhere. If we keep changing the text, it will never get done.
> M. Marcius Rex: NEGAT More time for discussion needed
> T. Labienus Fortunatus: NEGAT There is much of value in this proposal,
> but the quaestores' role is incorrect.
> D. Iunius Palladius: Iunius Palladius votes no
> L Equitius Cincinnatus: Antiquo (Negat/NO)
> M. Octavius Germanicus: NEGAT. While a procedure is needed, this one has
> the Quaestors choosing whether to approve an expense, which is not proper.
> YES 3; NO 15; AB 0
> ITEM 1 FAILS
>
> Item the Second
> It is proposed that Nova Roma enact the following policy on financial
> controls
> Shall this be done?
> L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
> A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
> M. Iunius: Yes
> C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
> M. Cassius Julianus: YES.
> Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas.
> M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS. Same points apply
> M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
> C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, there should be a permanent treasury staff.
> N. Moravius Vado: NEGAT/ANTIQUO/NO For reasons similar to those stated
> above, I cannot give this my approval.
> Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas
> M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
> M. Marcius Rex: Negat More time for discussion needed
> T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
> D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius abstains. I think that we should start
> moving control of the
> treasury towards a more permanent, professional staff.
> L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
> M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS.
> YES 15; NO 2; AB 1;
> ITEM 2 PASSES
>
> Item the Third
> Legio V Alaudae (The Larks) request Nova Roma Sponsorship
> Shall we sponsor the Legio?
> L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
> A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
> M. Iunius: Yes
> C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
> M. Cassius Julianus: YES. * I also am not overly concerned over having
> too many small legions. Sponsoring new startups only gives us an
> opportunity to grow Legions which are more connected to Nova Roma, and
> made up with a greater percentage of Citizens.
> Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. (While some have expressed concerns about
> sponsoring too many small legions, I think this is exactly the purpose of
> our sponsorship program - to give these legions a place to find one
> another and arrange projects in cooperation.)
> M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
> M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
> C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, this is part of our goals.
> N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES Though I feel we should not go on to
> sponsor an infinity of legiones, as I said earlier, I wish them well.
> Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas. Although we should start thinking of
> requesting greater numbers of recruits in legiones before we grant them
> sponsorship. Alaudae has a special place in my heart, since it was one
> of the first legiones I constructed.
> M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
> M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
> T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
> D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
> L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
> M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS.
> YES 18; NO 0; AB 0;
> ITEM 3 PASSES
>
> Item the Fourth.
> Incorporation of Switzerland into Province Germania.
> Shall we do this?
> L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
> A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
> M. Iunius: Yes
> C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. * If there is later any objection from Italian,
> French or Romany Swiss, we can adjust borders and/or name at that time.
> I assume it will be considered the Regio of Helvitia.
> M. Cassius Julianus: YES.
> Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas, though I wish we had been able to hear from
> more actual
> Helvetian Citizens before making this choice.
> M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: ABSTINEO.
> M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
> C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, I don't see the combination as a problem.
> N. Moravius Vado: ABSTINEO/NO VOTE/ABSTAIN Although no French- or
> Italian-speaking citizens have objected (I admit I do not know whether
> there are any to object), there may be objections in future. Also, as
> there is no one in this House to speak for the particular interests of
> the cives of Gallia or Italia, I feel unable to support this motion. And
> could we give the regio a more Roman name, like Helvetia, please?
> Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas This will set the record straight.
> M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS Though what about all the French speaking
> citizens? When I was there I thought they made up a third of the
> population. Do they really want to be part of Germania?
> M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
> T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
> D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
> L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
> M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. Yes, but if a French or
> Italian-speaking citizen of Helvetica prefers to be considered part of
> Gallia or Italia, I hope the censors would allow that.
> YES 16; NO O; AB 2;
> ITEM 4 PASSES
>
> Item the Fifth,
> Certification of the Sodalitus Musarum as a Nova Roman Sodalitus.
> Shall we do this?
> L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
> A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
> M. Iunius: Yes
> C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
> M. Cassius Julianus: YES.
> Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. May the Gods inspire them.
> M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
> M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
> C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas
> N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES This Sodalis will, divis volentibus,
> enrich our cultural Romanitas and especially the Religio Romana.
> Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas
> M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
> M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
> T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
> D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
> L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
> M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS.
> YES 18; NO 0; AB 0;
> ITEM 5 PASSES
>
> Item the Sixth
> Quintus Sertorius has asked to be considered for appointment as
> Propraetor of Canada Occidentalis.
> Shall he be appointed?
> L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
> A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
> M. Iunius: Yes
> C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. * [Much cheering, fanfares and flower petals!]
> M. Cassius Julianus: At last! I vote an enthusiastic YES, and am
> gratified that his patience held out long enough to see this done.
> Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. He has shown himself to be enthusiastic,
> dedicated and energetic on behalf of Nova Roma.
> M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
> M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
> C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, Sertorious is perfect for the position.
> N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES He is a man of proven diligence,
> enthusiasm, diligence and ability.
> Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas
> M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
> M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
> T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
> D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
> L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
> M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. He has worked hard for this, and will
> make an excellent praetor.
> YES 18; N0 0; AB 0;
> ITEM 6 PASSES
>
> Item the Seventh
> The Praetor of Germania has requested that Senate might approve the
> opening
> of the Limes Cooperation between the Provinces.
> Shall we approve this?
> L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
> A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
> M. Iunius: Yes
> C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
> M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES. (And am in agreement that we should be
> more proactive and work toward starting such efforts ourselves.)
> Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas.
> M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
> M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
> C. Tullius Cicero: Abstaino. I am not clear on this issue.
> N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES The sharing and emulation of best
> practice, and mutual assistance, deserves approval. The Limes
> Co-operation facilitates this. I speak from experience.
> Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas
> M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
> M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
> T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
> D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
> L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
> M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. Standards are a good thing.
> YES 17; NO 0; AB 1;
> ITEM 7 PASSES
>
> Item the Eighth.
> Additional Internal Senate Procedures.
> A. The Senate shall conduct its business within full view of the
> Citizenry. This will be implemented by allowing all Citizens to read
> (but not post on) the Senate e-mail list. Exceptions are provided.
> Shall we allow this?
> L. Cornelius Sulla: No
> A. Gryllus Graecis: No
> M. Iunius: No
> C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
> M. Cassius Julianus: NO
> Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. It is my understanding that in ancient Rome,
> Senate discussions could be heard by (and were regularly discussed by)
> Citizens while they were going on. It is also consistent with the idea of
> helping Citizens of Nova Roma to feel more involved and to
> contribute their knowledge and ideas.
> M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: NEGAT. I am persuaded by the arguments of
> Australicus on this point.
> M. Minucius Audens: NO (Negat)! (I do not believe, in my view, that any
> useful information can be gained by the Citizens of Nova Roma from
> hearing deliberations on the Senate Floor, and I am likewise absolutely
> certain that much harm and confusion would result from such a proposal.
> Finally it does not appear to be historically correct. I honor Senator
> Fortunatus for his abiliy to look past the immediate discussion, and
> pledge to him my support in the future toward keeping the Citizens of
> Nova Roma properly informed.)
> C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, I am satisfied with the restrictions.
> N. Moravius Vado: NEGAT/ANTIQUO/NO As I have said before, if it proves
> unworkable, it will be hard to revoke or amend. I would, however, support
> any future proposal to allow individual citizens read-only access on
> application (especially magistrates and other officials), for a limited
> period and to a limited number at any time.
> Q. Fabius Maximus: Negat. I have already made my reasons known. If the
> Republic didn't do it, why should we? The Senators conducted business
> out doors, until they had to debate topics. Then they went inside.
> There had to be a reason for this. I think I was so they wouldn't be
> intimidated by the populace.
> M. Iucundia Flavia: NEGAT It was not done in old Rome. We are
> attempting to recreate the Roman republic.
> M. Marcius Rex: Negat I bow to Sergius Australicus for his
> constitutional law opinion on this particular proposal.
> T. Labienus Fortunatus: NEGAT I have, no doubt, surprised many with this
> vote. I came into this debate much in favor of the idea, though I had
> some slight qualms about the technicalities of its execution. I remain
> torn between a desire to provide a transparent government and a wish to
> maintain the mos maiorum. I have long argued that one of the major
> questions facing Nova Roma is how much to keep of the old versus how much
> to add of the new. It is not a question that will be answered quickly or
> easily.
> Additionally, the major reason that I originally felt that this body's
> deliberations should be open to the populace is because of the tendency
> to use senatus consulta to decide issues that should be taken before the
> comitia. Often, we treat our decisions as though they create law, and we
> have occasionally acted as though we have a right to discipline
> individual citizens--effectively acting as a closed court in which the
> accused is not even assured of being allowed to defend him or her self.
> If we take onto ourselves the powers of the comitia, then we must be
> exposed to scrutiny and answerable to the people for our decisions.
> However, I am heartened by the fact that almost every candidate for major
> office has made building the institutions necessary to rectify the
> problem of the Senate's arrogation of powers that are not its by right
> the center of his or her campaign. Therefore, in light of those campaing
> promises, and in an optimistic spirit, I opt to maintain the mos maiorum.
> D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes no
> L Equitius Cincinnatus: Antiquo (Negat/NO)
> M. Octavius Germanicus: NEGAT. I refer once again to the line from Twain
> (or Bismarck) about sausage-making.
> YES 3; NEGAT 15; AB 0;
> ITEM 8A FAILS
>
> B. II. The votes of individual Senators, along with any rationales they
> offer with their votes (i.e., in the same e-mail as the vote itself),
> will be made available to the Citizens by the Tribunes of the Plebs,
> either by forwarding them to the main Nova Roma e-mail list or by
> posting them to the Nova Roma web site.
> Shall this be done?
> L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
> A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
> M. Iunius: Yes
> C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
> M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES, and suggest that there should be a
> record of Senate votes posted to the website. No Senator should be
> *forced* to explain their vote, but an option for such should definitely
> be included.
> Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas.
> M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS.
> M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
> C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas
> N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES This House as an institution, and many
> of its members as individuals, have suffered from an undeservedly
> negative perception by the populus. I trust this will go a long way to
> remedying the matter.
> Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas. This has always been allowed. Lists were
> often put up on the sides of the Rosta so those that could read could
> inspect them.
> M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
> M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
> T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
> D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
> L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
> M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. Although the process itself should be
> conducted in privacy, the people do have a right to know who supports
> which items. Even though we are appointed for life, many of us run for
> elected office as well, and should therefore be held accountable.
> I also believe this to be historically correct, as the Tribunes (and
> door-slaves) did inform the people what happened within the Curia.
> YES 17; NO 1; AB 0;
> ITEM 8B PASSES
>
> Item the Ninth.
> Change to the Electoral Procedure Re: Multiple Candidates
> To ensure a consistent standard for future elections,
> these two mutually exclusive proposals are now placed before
> the Senate:
> VOTE FOR BOTH or ABSTAIN.
> A. "One Vote"
> L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
> A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
> M. Iunius: Yes
> C. Aelius Ericius: No.
> M. Cassius Julianus: A. One vote. Octavius has made an excellent case
> for this.
> Patricia Cassia: A. One vote. I am persuaded by Octavius' arguments on
> behalf of historical accuracy.
> M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS. I am persuaded here by the
> argument for consistency with Roma Antiqua and by the immediate
> practicalities. I do think, however, that it is unfortunate that we have
> attempted to have a full number of Centuries with a small number of
> citizens. This rather destroys the point of the Century system,
> irrespective of the silly results of treating a century as "tied" when
> one citizen votes.
> M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
> C. Tullius Cicero: Negat. If there is more than one selection there must
> be more than one vote to reflect the opinion of the citizen.
> N. Moravius Vado: NEGAT/ANTIQUO/NO People have a right to vote for as
> many candidacies as there are posts to be filled. Votes will be spoiled
> as a result of misunderstandings. This will be contentious. Ancient
> practice is not always best practice.
> Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas. We do have to come up with a better system
> eventually.
> M. Iucundia Flavia: NEGAT This is not a full vote. It is half a vote.
> Why should the citizens stand for that?
> M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
> T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
> D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes **NO** on this item, which should
> more properly be
> called the "half a vote per voter proposal."
> L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
> M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. This fixes a flaw in our system in a
> historically correct way. Each person selects *one* candidate for consul
> or praetor, just as our ancestors did. A beneficial effect of this is
> that both competing viewpoints will be represented in the Consulate, and
> the consuls will serve as controls on each others power -- as the
> founders of the Republic intended.
> YES 13; NO 5; AB 0;
> ITEM 9A PASSES
>
> B. "Multiple Votes, Ties Awarded to All"
> L. Cornelius Sulla: No
> A. Gryllus Graecis: No
> M. Iunius: No
> C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
> M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: NEGAT, for the reasons above
> M. Minucius Audens: NO (Negat)!
> C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, as above.
> N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES It has been said that this system would
> favour political parties. There are no political parties in NR. May the
> gods spare us that! It has been said that this system gives people more
> than one vote for each candidate. Mea sententia, it is better to give the
> voters more votes than they ought to have, rather than deny them the
> votes they ought to have.
> Q. Fabius Maximus: Negat. Too many potental problems though I liked the
> effort.
> M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS What problems? People get to vote for who
> they want. Isn't this what it is all about?
> M. Marcius Rex: NEGAT
> T. Labienus Fortunatus: NEGAT A very good try, M Octavius.
> D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes YES
> L Equitius Cincinnatus: Absto (abstain)
> M. Octavius Germanicus: NEGAT. It seemed like a good idea at first,
> mathematically and logically sound, but it is not historically correct,
> it also encourages factionalism by allowing an entire "party" to be voted
> in, and it changes the balance of power by allowing some votes to be
> counted twice.
> YES 5; NO 10; AB 3;
> ITEM 9B FAILS
>
> Item the tenth
> Addition of a Third Rogator.
> To include a third elected or appointed Rogator, with only two needed to
> oversee the electoral process.
> The third to act as backup
> Shall this be done?
> L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes*My comments on this proposal is that it should
> be taking to the Comitia and the Lex Vedia amended. Otherwise according
> to the Legal precedence
> section in the Constitution, this Senatus Consulta means very little.
> A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
> M. Iunius: Yes
> C. Aelius Ericius says: It would help the Republic to function if we
> had a couple
> of spares for this highly essential post. We should so recommend this to
> the Comitia.
> M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES. I also agree with Germanicus that there
> should actually be *four* trained Rogators at any time as opposed to
> three.
> Patricia Cassia: Assuming this is actually a recommendation to the
> Comitia rather than an attempt to overturn a Lex (which we can't do), Uti
> rogas.
> M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS - provided that this is to be
> understood as a recommendation for legislation, not as an
> unconstitutional attempt to amend a lex by s.c.
> M. Minucius Audens: NO (Negat)! (The item is not worded properly to be
> voted upon by this August Body. A change in the proper Lex should be
> submitted for approval and then
> voted upon by the people. Again, in my view, a flawed Consultum is worse
> than no decision at all.)
> C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas
> N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES
> If the Senate is entitled to co-opt a Dictator in an emergency, it would
> seem absurd for the Senate not to take ythe initiative to co-opt back-up
> Rogatores (I would favour two), when the machinery of government is in
> danger of breaking down. Consul Q. Fabius has every right to feel
> exasperated. So do I. A general agreement to bend the rules of the
> Constitution in cases such as those we have experienced this year, when
> the Comitia cannot work and elections cannot be held is, I believe, fully
> pardonable when a shortcoming in the Constitution has us backed into a
> Catch-22 situation.
> It is the spirit of the law, not the letter of it, which is important at
> times like these. So I am voting for something that is unconstitutional
> and therefore (technically) illegal. I hope it is the last time I shall
> feel I need to do such a thing. I hope this passes the vote, and goes to
> the Comitia for ratification (assuming we have enough Rogatores to allow
> this to happen).
> Q. Fabius Maximus: I say yes it should be done and sent to the Comitia
> for ratification.
> The Consules will write a lex and put it to the people next week.
> M. Iucundia Flavia: NEGAT It is unconstitutional as written.
> M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS I concur with Senator Labienus on this issue
> T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS I agree to this only inasmuch as we
> shall secure a replacement for either of the two elected rogatores in
> anticipation of the eventuality that one of them may prematurely lay down
> the task. We do not have the power to alter a lex, and I urge the
> consules to draft an appropriate lex and put it before the people during
> the upcoming election.
> D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes NO
> L Equitius Cincinnatus: Antiquo (Negat/No) As Germanicus pointed out this
> is not something we can do, but I do think this should be something that
> is on the first comtia call.
> M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. I am aware that the lex specifies two
> Rogators; therefore the third must be strictly considered a backup, who
> will assume the position when one of the primaries fails to fulfill their
> duty.
> YES 13; NO 5; AB 0;
> ITEM 10 PASSES LEX TO BE SENT TO THE COMITIA
>
> Item the eleventh
> Pompeia Cornelia Strabo requests to be Propraetor of Canada Orientalis.
> Shall we allow her?
> L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
> A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
> M. Iunius: Yes
> C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
> M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES. Pompeia Cornelia Strabo has proven
> herself to be both dedicated and enthusiastic. I believe Nova Roma will
> benefit greatly by having her in this office.
> Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas. Pompeia Cornelia is a thoughtful and mature
> person who will represent us well.
> M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
> M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
> C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, Cornelia is well suited to the position. I
> am pleased to see both Canadian positions will be filled for the first
> time.
> N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES She is as worthy of the office as Q.
> Sertorius is of that of Propraetor Canadae Occidentalis, for the same
> reasons.
> Q. Fabius Maximus: Vti Rogas. Though is it my imagination or are most of
> the Cornelii
> Provincial Praetors?
> M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
> M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
> T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
> D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
> L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
> M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS.
> YES 18; NO 0; AB 0;
> ITEM 11 PASSES
>
> Item the Twelfth.
> Lucius Pompeius Octavianus requests the creation of a province called
> Argentina and requests the Provincial Praetorship.
> Shall we create the Province?
> C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
> M. Cassius Julianus: I vote YES, although I agree that the province
> should be called Argentinia.
> Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas (though I am with Germanicus in wishing it
> were called Argentinia).
> M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
> C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas.
> N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES Although I think it is more a matter of
> the Senate approving what has already been created.
> Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas.
> M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
> M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
> T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
> D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
> L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
> M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS.
> YES 18; NO 0; AB 0;
> ITEM 12a PASSES
>
> Shall we make him the Provincial Praetor?
> L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
> A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
> M. Iunius: Yes
> C. Aelius Ericius: Yes.
> M. Cassius Julianus: YES
> Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas.
> M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: UTI ROGAS
> M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
> C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas.
> N. Moravius Vado: UTI ROGAS/YES
> Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas
> M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS
> M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
> T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
> D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
> L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
> M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS.
> YES 18; NO 0; AB 0;
> ITEM 12b PASSES
>
> Senator A. Probus cast the following votes too late to count:
> Alexander Probus:
> Item I - No
> Item II -Yes
> Item III - Yes
> Item IIII - Yes
> Item V - Yes
> Item VI - Yes
> Item VII - Yes
> Item VIII - A - No
> - B - Yes
> Item VIIII - A - Yes
> - B - No
> Item X - Yes
> Item XI - Yes
> Item XII - Yes (with an additional note)
> According to the last item I would like to post a question. What if few
> years after we will have other citizens in Chile, Uruguai, Paraguai and
> Bolivia? Will we create separate provinces for every national country or
> will try to simpliify the things uniting some of them into one NR
> province.
> My opinion is to createa province with a different name than one national
> state in the regio. That name may to be acceptable for the potential
> citizens from all the national states in the regio. On the other hand
> Argentina is a very big country so she could be a separate province. I
> would
> like to hear opinions on that issue of colleagues more experienced with
> the
> situation of America Australis.
>
> ***********************************
>
> I hope this juice was worth the squeeze for someone.
>
> Valete,
>
> Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
> Tribunus Plebis
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] The Senior Consul on the election.
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 14:39:11 EST

Salvete Citizens of Rome.

No doubt you (those who are interested) have wondered where I and my
colleague have been during these heated debates. We have been involved in
the day to day operation of Rome. That in itself is a job, plus we have our
regular jobs. So this is my first chance to speak with you.
Rome went through a lot this year. But for the most part it was peaceful
compared to last year.
We are growing, we have added more provinces, and strengthened our
leadership. However we did have our setbacks, we lost several valuable
citizens, because of the behavior of one individual, and government was
paralyzed by the fact that we were incapable to pass laws since we were
unable have our Rogators stay in office for any length of time. This is why
the Rogator is so critical. I'm very glad to see three worthy people
standing for the position. You must give us that year though. It is very
important.
At this point I have to say that I am so heartened by the turnout of people
standing for office this year. Now if only the people will assemble with the
same enthusiasm. I'm sorry to say that only 14% of the people turned out for
our last assembly. I know we can do better then this. I expect that you will
feel the same.
Fortuna preserve our republic!
Vale
Q. Fabius Maximus
Senior Consul.

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Subject:	[novaroma] The Senior Consul endorses candidates.
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 14:57:30 EST

Salvete citizens of Rome!
As Rome continues to move forward, we must have leadership. This vital. I
can think of no two better people then the "founders" of "New Rome" Flavius
Vedius Germanicus, Marcus Cassius Julianus, as your consuls. It was they who
had the vision to start this endeavor. It is they who now have the
comprehension to continue onward with that vision. After all it is their
plan. Who are better equipped to achieve it?
The unoffical "third founder" L. Equitius Cincinnatus who has been involved
in this project from the beginning, will make a fine Censor. Marcus Maricus
Rex is a splendid individual, and knowledgeable about Rome, I have supported
him in reaching the Praetorship of Germania and his membership in the Senate,
however Lucius Equitius knows the job, and most important knows the amount of
commitnent needed. Because it is considerable. With these two important
qualifications met, I urge you to vote for him.

Lucius Sergius Australicus "the stubborn one" was one of your Tribunes this
year. I must say while he was hampered by a colleague who was not able to
stay in contact, he still did an outstanding job. He was always available,
he oversaw the Senate as the watchdog that he was, protecting the people.
There were many times he and I clashed, however his sound judgements, and
impassioned rhetoric often swayed me, as well as others into giving him his
way. Such a man deserves a chance to continue to sustain the people, as
their Praetor Urbanus.

Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar was Tribune last year, however personal misfortune
prevented him from doing the best job that he could. He sacrificed much for
Rome, driving distances so he could use a computer terminal. Still he feels
that he may have let the citizens down. For his own personal honor he feels
he must make good. Therefore I urge the people to give him that chance.
Reelect him, so he may continue.
Alexander Iulius Caesar Probus is also running for Tribune. I have always
found him direct, honest and fiercely protective of the Roman people. He is
a fine choice.

I would be amiss if I did not mention two candidates for Quaestor.
Marcus Minucius Audens and Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator.
Marcus Minucius was my co-consul this year, and without him the job would
impossible.
When my sister was severely injured in a car collision, he took exclusively
over the two months I was in San Diego, out of touch and nearly out of my
head with grief. When I almost resigned, feeling I was hindering Rome's
progress, Marcus Minucius persuaded my to stay, and together we got through
it. When my father died in October, again Marcus Minucius allowed me the
necessary time to take care of affairs in Minnesota, organizing the day to
day operations here in Rome. I take this time to publicity thank Marcus
Minucius Audens for all his support and understanding.
And citizens do not let his courtly rhetoric fool you, there is a man who is
as tough as good Roman iron, unswerving in his convictions.

Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator. What can I say about Rome's "old Warhorse?"
Except as my Quaestor, Ullerius carried out his assignments quickly and with
friendly advice, which made the jobs he was assigned, easier, more clear,
etc. I was fortunate to have him, and Rome is fortunate that he continues to
be involved with us.

Now, no doubt you have noticed I have made no attack on the people who have
attacked me.
All I can say, people of Rome, what would be the point? We all have our
conceptions, of course I feel mine will greater benefit Rome in the future
and I hope you do as well. That is all I ask.

I now take my leave, I have a plane to catch, (Pilum with wings, I know,
strange concept.) However the cista is ready, the votes from the last Senate
session have been noted, and Rome is calm on the eve of an important
election. My job is finished.
May Fortuna watch over our Republic.
Valete!
Q. Fabius Maximus, Consul
Candidate For Praetor
http://romanrepublic.org/campaign/Fabius/

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Subject:	[novaroma] Fwd: Rome
From:	"Gaius Tullius" <nr_cicero@-------->
Date:	Wed, 06 Dec 2000 19:59:53 -0000

Salvete,

This is a question sent to me from a student. Anyone with the time
who would like to answer this can respond privately to the address of the
original sender.

-C Tullius Cicero

>From: ptmvx@--------
>To: nr_cicero@--------
>Subject: Rome
>Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 23:48:48 +1000
>
>
>
>
>As I�m working on an extensive school essay on Roman history,I�d greatly
>appreciate your help as I've been asked by my teacher to seek out (via
>the Net) from advanced Roman Empire enthusiasts / aficionados,
>creatively witty tips or suggestions on the questions below. Whether
>the responses obtained are ultra serious, humorous or a combo of
>both,isn�t important.
>
>- Describe your current job (or if you dislike your present part or
>full time job,the ideal job you'd love to be presently working in) as
>it might have been / would be in Ancient Rome.
>
>- Any general clever,witty comment/s on the hypothetical notion of what
>is the first act you'd do if you were the Emperor of Rome.
>
>- What changes you'd make to the traditional Roman Gladiator games to
>improve them.
>
>Thanks again and merry Xmas / happy new year.
>
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Paul Mills
>
><ptmvx@-------->
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Class Conlfict
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 20:30:40 +0100

Salve Senator Flavi Vedi,

> > > I see a small group of people who falsely claim to be a "majority"
> > > even though they are but a mere handful.
> >
> > Prove this claim. We never said this, according to my knowledge.
>
> If I may interject, I believe Marcus Octavius Germanicus was referring to
> the original post in this thread by Vado, in which he said, "These folk
(who
> account for less than 5 per cent of Nova Roma's population but currently
> around 50 per cent of its public e-mails).... Then there is the rest of
us -
> whether plebeian, equestrian, patrician, senator or magistrate - who
> don't. I will be voting with and for the majority."
>
> So yes, my young Draco. One of your comrades did, in fact, claim to speak
> for and belong to the majority.

Quite right. Although we also belong to that five percent for sure, I think
Vado was identifying himself with the majority, rather than claiming to be
one of them. However, I won't delve into word and grammar vivisection, as
that could get *really* nasty ;-).

Vale bene!
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
<< PETITOR AEDILIS PLEBIS >>
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Traditions or trappings? (was: What are we fighting for?)
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 20:43:21 +0100

Salve iterum,

> > I agreed with many of your points you made in your posting, but this one
> > made me frown. Specify your accusation of a "quasi-Roman"-construct. Do
we
> > say we want to alternate Nova Roma to "the fashions of the day"? None of
> us
> > says that, and I may hope none of us implies, it, either. We are all
> > reconstructionists, but some have other opinions on how to reconstruct,
> than
> > others do.
>
> I'm afraid, my young Draco, that the email archives do not bear out your
> statement. Have you forgotten Formasanus' (surely one of the "us" you
refer
> to if anyone is) famous post to the Amici Dignitas list entitled _The
> Movement_, wherein he made the statement "Taxes and their appropriation
> should be clearly under the control of the Populus, not the senate, in a
> manner consistent with modern states."?

The venom would be in that last line, I suppose. Albeit I concede that the
AD as such tend to choose for democratic principles as seen in modern states
of today (with mostly European examples), it is still Roman. We keep the
Roman functions, checks and balances, nomenclature, and often make reference
to historical examples as well (as Formosanus did in his second paper, I
believe). Also, I do believe that taxes aren't very reconstructionist
either, but a rather modern concept. As has been pointed out in this forum
before, ancient Rome usually did not impose any taxes. However, the idea of
taxes/fees here is now generally accepted in some kind of form (though ideas
on that vary!). So if we use a modern means (taxes) why not use modern means
to govern it (financial democracy)?

> And of course his later missive in that same forum entitled _How to forget
> Marius_; "We must put legislation in place, or remove it, so that all
sexual
> minority citizens can have names of good Roman and Latin form in the
> grammatical gender corresponding to their stated social gender without
> further complication or bureaucratic harassment."
>
> Your compatriots, Vado and Piscinus, have expressed support for similar
> legislation, I believe.
>
> Please be so good as to point out where either of those legislative
> initiatives were in place in Roma Antiqua. I may not hold an M.A. in
> Classical Studies, but I'm pretty sure the concept of "social gender" is a
> modern one...

As far as my knowledge goes, sexual minorities had to choose their gender in
Nova Roma. I don't know any specific cases though, but I do know that their
legislation was fairly practical. If there was doubt about one's gender,
they let the person choose what he/she wanted. Simplicitas! :-). Also, if I
may remind you, the legislation was mainly under control of the Comitia
Plebis, that issued Plebiscita, and the Praetores who ruled through Edicta
(later through Edicta Perpetua or laws). Every Magistrate was also entitled
to issue Edicta concerning their own duties. In any case, legislation wasn't
mainly done by Censores or the Senate.
So I can't see what's so un-Roman about these proposals, mi amice.

Vale bene!
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
<< PETITOR AEDILIS PLEBIS >>
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Traditions or trappings? (was: What are we fighting for?)
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:27:21 -0500

Salvete;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: S. Apollonius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 2:43 PM
>
> If there was doubt about one's gender,
> they let the person choose what he/she wanted. Simplicitas! :-).

Simple enough to claim without any supporting evidence, I'll grant you!
That's quite a wild claim, and I'm going to ask you to back that one up with
some sources. Just extrapolating it from "their legislation was very
practical" isn't good enough to justify that particular leap of logic.

I would add that this tendency to stretch ir invent historicity merely to
accomodate a modern "feel good" policy is precisely the attitude I'm talking
about. Look to the past for policy; don't make policy and try to justify it
after the fact.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul

http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Senate Voting Results
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:59:07 -0500

Salvete, Quirites

I.Querius Armoricus Lutecio Omnibus SPD
Salvete

First of all congratulations to the new magistrates !!!

I would like to react to the annexion of Switzerland to Provincia Germania....

But I do demand quite a flexibility to the Censors if a french or
italian-speaking new citizen feels easier to join Gallia or Italia.

I.Querius Armoricus Lutecio, Propraetor Provinciae Galliae

Lucius Equitius, Candidatus Censori: I think this is a very reasonable request, that I would give great weight to.
I don't see any reason to deny such a request.

Valete, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus, Senator

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Traditions or trappings? (was: What are we fighting for?)
From:	"Jeroen Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 22:03:32 +0100

Salve,

> >
> > If there was doubt about one's gender,
> > they let the person choose what he/she wanted. Simplicitas! :-).
>
> Simple enough to claim without any supporting evidence, I'll grant you!
> That's quite a wild claim, and I'm going to ask you to back that one up
with
> some sources. Just extrapolating it from "their legislation was very
> practical" isn't good enough to justify that particular leap of logic.
>
> I would add that this tendency to stretch ir invent historicity merely to
> accomodate a modern "feel good" policy is precisely the attitude I'm
talking
> about. Look to the past for policy; don't make policy and try to justify
it
> after the fact.

I don't think I'm doing that. However, my source is my course of Latin of
6th grade secondary school, and therefore my teacher of Latin, who said this
litterally. I presume as a scholar, he has his reasons to say that - why
else would he say it, anyway? He has probably never even heard of Nova Roma.
As soon as I can I will ask him where he got that information, though. But
it's not a case of extrapolation here.

Vale bene,
Sextus Apollonius Draco,
<<PETITOR AEDILIS PLEBIS>>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Saturnalia Invitation
From:	smunchkyn@--------
Date:	Wed, 06 Dec 2000 22:03:36 -0000

We would like to take this opportunity to invite those who would like
to join us to our Saturnalia Feast. The Feast will last the whole of
the Saturnalia (I'll be the one in the kitchen <G>), which in turn is
December 17th to the 23rd of December.

Those who would like to join us may email or call us for driving
directions. You are welcome to show up any or all days of the
Saturnalia. I'm afraid I am not going to be able to organize myself
enough to provide a menu this year. I will begin on next years menu
on the 24th LOL!!

Be aware that we have 2 dogs, 2 cats and 2 children, should anyone be
allergic to any of the 3 <G>. The upside is that I have a serious
case of "Jewish Mother Syndrome". My motto being "Eat! Eat! You look
so thin!!"

Again, feel free to email us privately for information.
meakerfam@--------

Pax,
Donald and Crystal Meaker

Obedience is the gateway through which knowledge, yes, and love, too,
enter the mind of the child.
Anne Sullivan
Phone/Fax # = 877-569-4309

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Things To Do
From:	Mike Macnair <MikeMacnair@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 17:11:29 -0500

Salvete!

M. Papirius Justus wrote,

>Personally, I don't see why we cannot begin with the known Corpus Iuris
>Civilis and simply adapt it to our needs taking into account the positive
>and negative changes in our respective societies. Eliminate/degenderify
>most of it and we'll have a perfectly fine legal code. Then install a
>judicial system based on assignation of judges and a somewhat more
flexible
>formulary system than prevailed in the late Republic and that's that.

I agree in principle with this view, and my draft of civil procedure was
based on it, albeit following the formulary system rather than the cognitio
system which prevailed in the later Empire. I assume that we wouldn't need
either the Novels of Justinian, or the parts of the Code which date after
the Tetrarchy.

The main difficulty is, of course, that the laws should be readily knowable
by the citizens. The Corpus Iuris has not yet been put on the Web, as far
as I know, and while we have a good English translation of the Digest by
Watson et al the Code is only Englished in the poor translation by Scott.
In any case, while the Digest is said largely to follow the order of the
Perpetual Edict, this order is the product of history more than it is of
ease of finding things. There are lots of good textbooks of Roman Law for
undergraduate students, and we could adopt one, but which? There is,
therefore, a strong case for a "code" in the French sense of a highly
summary document laying out general principles and organised by subject,
probably mainly drawn from the Institutes of Gaius, with a direction to
interpret in the light of the Corpus Iuris Civilis so far as not
inconsistent with the (proposed) Bill of Rights.

The other aspect is that, as Cassius has pointed out, we clearly don't need
or want a complete Code, since NR can't deal with and shouldn't attempt to
deal with (a) matters of child custody or property in land, or (b) any
criminal matters in which proceedings in NR might prejudice or interfere
with macronational criminal proceedings.

Valete,

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: The Amici Dignitatis Statement
From:	Mike Macnair <MikeMacnair@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 17:11:38 -0500

Salvete!

Germanicus wrote,

>Nova Roma is an attempt to recreate the Roman
>Republic, warts and all, and to turn it into anything less is a betrayal
of
>its original intent-- can you read anything else in our Constitution?

Actually, that's not what you wrote in the Constitution. (A) Certain rights
are explicitly guaranteed to citizens. While these have roman private law
roots, their elaboration is the work of the last thousand years of history
since the medievals started to reinterpret the roman sources. (B) There is
no scope in NR (quite rightly!) for street violence or the episodic roman
practice of lynching magistrates. The list could go on.

>It is not a PC playground. Let us resist this invasion, and confirm that
Nova Roma
>is once and for all the recreation of the Roman Republic, and not "what a
>bunch of liberal intellectuals think Rome should have been."

NR is inevitably a modern day VERSION of the core principles of the roman
res publica. Moreover, anti-PC images of Roma Antiqua are as much based on
fiction as PC images. Romanitas can be something we seek, for whatever
reasons. It cannot, however, be constructed as an "alternative" to modern
politics which addresses modern political questions.

Valete,

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

(Whose machine has been down for 24 hours due to a bug in Office 2000.
Delenda Est Minuscumollis!)

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Traditions or trappings? (was: What are we fighting for?)
From:	Mike Macnair <MikeMacnair@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 17:10:25 -0500

Salvete!

Germanicus wrote, inter alia,

>And of course his later missive in that same forum entitled _How to forget
>Marius_; "We must put legislation in place, or remove it, so that all
sexual
>minority citizens can have names of good Roman and Latin form in the
>grammatical gender corresponding to their stated social gender without
>further complication or bureaucratic harassment."

>Your compatriots, Vado and Piscinus, have expressed support for similar
>legislation, I believe.

>Please be so good as to point out where either of those legislative
>initiatives were in place in Roma Antiqua. I may not hold an M.A. in
>Classical Studies, but I'm pretty sure the concept of "social gender" is a
>modern one...

And here, of course, we come to the nub of the debate. Roma Antiqua had
neither laws permitting names to conform to "social gender", nor laws
requiring names to conform to "physical gender". The legal regulation of
names is a modern idea.

It is this modern political idea of gender name regulation which Germanicus
(when Censor) by individual decision, and Sulla through his Edict,
introduced into Nova Roma.

Such a law is unnecessary to the practical functioning of NR. It is
unnecessary to Romanitas. It is unnecessary to the Religio. Its only
purpose is to "take a stand against PC", i.e. to take a modern political
position. As such it is no different from the various past attempts to e.g.
get NR to condemn NATO intervention in the Balkans (albeit from a different
political starting point!).

Moreover, the decision to introduce such a law belonged to the Comitia. An
attempt to take such a major decision by Edict should have been vetoed by
a Tribune (the only person competent to veto the Censors) to force a
Comitia vote. Instead, Caesar barred Australicus' offered veto.

The row which ensued was inevitable. In this row supporters of the Edict
expressed authoritarian political positions. Is it any wonder, then, that
some citizens have gone to the other extreme? It ill becomes Germanicus,
Sulla, Caesar et al to complain about this without giving an accounting for
their own initiatives and conduct and their own modern political objectives
for NR.

Valete,

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Candidate Lists
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 17:21:04 EST

Salvete Citizens of Rome.

The Comitia Centuriata is summoned this Dec 7th to elect the new Consules,
Praetors Urbanii, and Censor.
Gather at http://www.novaroma.org/cursus_honorum/voting/ to cast your votes.

The Comitia Tributa is summoned this Dec 7th to elect Curule Aedilii,
Quaestors, and the lesser Magistrates.
It also summoned to vote items into law. Assemble at
http://www.novaroma.org/cursus_honorum/voting/ to cast your votes

Fortuna preserve our Republic, Minervia enlighten our voters.
Valete!
The Consules

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Subject:	[novaroma] For the "Cursus Honorum - a new lex"!
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 23:22:27 +0100

Sulla:
>> No one has stated we SHOULD have a legislated Cursus Honorum. I was
>> responding to Sextus Apollonius's comments about a "what if" scenario if a
>> deranged Censor got into that office and started publishing Edicta.

Apollonius:
>My idea was not to legislate the Cursus Honorum, and I'm still against it,
>although requesting a potential Censor to have at least filled the position
>of Praetor, Consul or provincial governor at least once would be a good idea
>I think.

I think there are quite few advantages with a "Cursus Honorum Lex"
1. It will be easier to recruit to the lower levels, now it seems as if not
many want to work on the lower levels.
2. The officials on higher levels will be more experienced.
3. All officials will have experience from all "fields" in the end.
4. The populus will have longer time to see what the candidates will do in
practice.
5. Officials have had longer time to learn to know others at higher levels
before they get that responsability themselfs.
6. The law proposal has enough exceptions built into it to make it work now
in the beginning of Nova Roma's existence.

Maybe there are more arguments for? Are there arguments against?

Why should we not legislate, illustrous Censor Sulla? Dear Apollonius, your
idea of being a Praetor, Consul or govenor before becomming a Censor is
just a variant of my law proposal, or ...

Ave et salve

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

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Subject:	[novaroma] The Assemblies are summoned!
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 17:23:40 EST

Salvete Citizens of Rome.

The Comitia Centuriata is summoned this Dec 7th to elect the new Consules,
Praetors Urbanii, and Censor.
Gather at http://www.novaroma.org/cursus_honorum/voting/ to cast your votes.

The Comitia Tributa is summoned this Dec 7th to elect Curule Aedilii,
Quaestors, and the lesser Magistrates.
It also summoned to vote items into law. Assemble at
http://www.novaroma.org/cursus_honorum/voting/ to cast your votes

Fortuna preserve our Republic, Minervia enlighten our voters.
Valete!
The Consules

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Senate Voting Results
From:	RexMarcius@--------
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 17:37:15 EST

Salve Propraetor Galliae!

Let me reassure you that no "annexion" was meant by our motion to have
Switzerland added to the Province of Germania.

Our main goal was to unite those citizens in Provincia Germania which share a
common language, namely German. We have offered administrative services to
Swiss citizens so far only on an informal basis and to the best of my
knowledge, they are all exclusively German speaking.

Another goal was to avoid the impression that Austria and Germany were united
under the "Fasces" again....I hope you will understand why.

Also at the time the motion was put forward by us, provincia Gallia did not
exist.

Alors pour cettes raisons et parce que nous parlons francais aussi, nous
pensons que les citoyens suisses-francais avaient nulle raison de se sentir
forc�ment "annex�s".

Si je suis elu Censor, j'accepterai sans h�sitation le choix d'une citoyen
suisse-francais (ou suisse-italien) entre les differents provinces de Gallia,
Germania (et Italia) comme sa provincia domestica.

Ave et Vale

Marcus Marcius Rex
Propraetor Germania
Candidate for Censor

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Subject:	Tr: [novaroma] Senate Voting Results
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?WWFubiBRdely6Q==?= <yquere@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 23:39:06 +0100

Sorry, This should have been sent to the main list
----- Original Message -----
From: Yann Qu�r� <yquere@-------->
To: <RexMarcius@-------->
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 11:38 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Senate Voting Results

> Salve Propraetor Germaniae
> First Congratulations
>
> I understood the reason that lead to add (not annex) Helvetia to Germania,
> and I was not meaning any contestation at all. I just wanted to be sure
that
> strict application of this motion would not be a problem for a would-be
> citizen.
>
> I must admit I was deeply conviced there was no problem at all, but as
> Propraetor Galliae, I felt t was my duty to point this out.
>
> Thank you very much for your answer
> Vale bene
>
> I.Querius Armoricus Lutecio
> Propraetor Galliae
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <RexMarcius@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 11:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Senate Voting Results
>
>
> Salve Propraetor Galliae!
>
> Let me reassure you that no "annexion" was meant by our motion to have
> Switzerland added to the Province of Germania.
>
> Our main goal was to unite those citizens in Provincia Germania which
share
> a
> common language, namely German. We have offered administrative services to
> Swiss citizens so far only on an informal basis and to the best of my
> knowledge, they are all exclusively German speaking.
>
> Another goal was to avoid the impression that Austria and Germany were
> united
> under the "Fasces" again....I hope you will understand why.
>
> Also at the time the motion was put forward by us, provincia Gallia did
not
> exist.
>
> Alors pour cettes raisons et parce que nous parlons francais aussi, nous
> pensons que les citoyens suisses-francais avaient nulle raison de se
sentir
> forc�ment "annex�s".
>
> Si je suis elu Censor, j'accepterai sans h�sitation le choix d'une citoyen
> suisse-francais (ou suisse-italien) entre les differents provinces de
> Gallia,
> Germania (et Italia) comme sa provincia domestica.
>
> Ave et Vale
>
> Marcus Marcius Rex
> Propraetor Germania
> Candidate for Censor
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] My Thoughts on the Amici Dignitatis
From:	SyanneRose@--------
Date:	Wed, 6 Dec 2000 17:51:25 EST

Salvete Omnes,

These are just my opinions and I will hope everyone will understand, I am not
trying to offend nor insult anyone. From what I have gathered from the whole
Amici Dignitatis, are two things.

1. The Amici Dignitatis, the egroups list that is. Is a list created for
those who want to discuss and enjoy polictically structured discussions.

2. The Amici Dignitatis, the Non-Partisan group.

I was invited to sign the statement that was sent around, at the time I
simply ignored
it. Now why did I ignore it? First off something about the statement didn't
feel so cozy,
and secondly I'm not into politics enough to join. I enjoy politics from a
close spectator's view.

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus and the rest of this non-partisan group, I will
say this much to you. (No one take offense please) I will not call you
'Athenian Demagougues nor will I say you bring 'Apocalyptic doom' to everyone
you breathe on. I don't find you
evil at all. What I am trying to say is, even for no one who isn't into
politics, I do sense
some decisive differences. Now I will not accuse you all of having personal
riffs, internal conflicts or nasty squabbles within your group. I am asking
all of you, who
belong to the non-partisan group already, when Formosanus asks the citizens
of Nova Roma to sign this statement. Do you want the newcomers to think
everything is hunky dori when the group really isn't? A very wise person once
told me, in order for a group to truly work, compromises must be made. And
omnes if you really want to be
considered seriously, perhaps swallowing the pride pill and eating some
humble pie is necessary. I am sharing this from experience, with the Musarum
compromises had to be made, and I had the stubborn streak of not making them.
Guess what I alsohad to swallow the bitter pill as well, and eat many slices
of that humble pie. Now I am glad that I did, the Musarum has been granted
Senate approval. To the Amici Dignitatis (the non-partisan group that is) ,
take some to reflect omnes and make sure you are all on the same page. This
is all I will speak on the subject, and I hope none of my fellow citizens of
Nova Roma took offense, thank you.

Valete
Aeternia

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