Subject:	[novaroma] Debate Log Now Online
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:18:04 -0500

Salvete, Omnes;

As one of the participants in the election debate on Sunday, I took the
liberty of logging the chat as it occurred (no easy thing with our current
chat room, I'll tell you!).

For those cives who arrived late or were unable to attend, the chat log is
available on my campaign website; http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus

I have to say it was a very enjoyable time, and I hope the practice is
continued in the future.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul

http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Fund Raising and Taxation
From:	"Les Peterson" <procopious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:37:31 -0800

Lucius Mauricius Procopious Omnibus SPD
Is there any way to set up direct deposit so that a small monthly donation
can be made? I doubt I would miss $10 a month, that would be easier than
$120 per annum.

----- Original Message -----
From: <pjane@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 5:07 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Fund Raising and Taxation


> > Why can't the citizens of NR voluntarily give a few $
> > to advance the growth of our great nation?
>
> Indeed, many have contributed money and services to Nova Roma. To cite
> just a couple of examples, the citizens of Germania contributed a
> substantial sum this year, Marcus Octavius Germanicus is hosting our
> site for free on his server, and many magistrates use their own funds
> for phone calls, postage and office supplies to do their jobs.
>
> We are currently awaiting word from the U.S. tax authorities regarding
> our application for non-profit status. Once this is approved, I
> anticipate we will enjoy more contributions from our U.S. citizens.
>
> >I'm going to pull an Agrippa simply make a variable annual
> > contribution starting on or before 1/1/01 solely for
> > the betterment of Nova Roma. I'll be in touch with the
> > Senate to discern how to go about doing this.
>
> It's easy! Just send the money (in a check or money order made out to
> "Nova Roma") to Nova Roma, P.O. Box 1897, Wells, ME 04090.
>
> > One other brief idea (before finally going to bed!) is
> > to hold a raffle.
>
> As I understand it, raffles -- a form of fund-raiser in which
> participants buy tickets for a relatively small sum, and one ticket is
> chosen to win a fairly substantial prize -- are not legal in all parts
> of the U.S., and I have no idea about how they are regarded in other
> nations. Does anyone have any expertise, or would you be willing to
> research this?
>
> Thank you for your energy and ideas! Nova Roma needs these.
>
> Patricia Cassia
> Quaestor, Nova Roma
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] The Candidate Debate
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:49:41 -0500

Salvete;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: M. Apollonius Formosanus [mailto:bvm3@--------]
> Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 5:19 PM
>
> As a candidate participating in Sunday's Live Debate Forum,
> initiated by the Amici Dignitatis in accordance with its Statement,

And, amazingly, announced a day after I sent a similar proposal privately to
Vado. The text of that proposal may now be found on my candidacy website.

> I am encouraged to see that some of the key ideas of the Amici
> Dignitatis, namely setting ourself the task of creating real legal,
> and judicial systems, and activating the Comitia so that the People
> can in fact as well as theory exercise their sovereignty, have become
> an accepted programme for virtually all of the major candidates
> present. I think that whether I succeed or fail at my candidacy,
> these ideas which I and we have championed are sure to be realised in
> the upcoming year. They are ideas whose time has come.

I am forced to point out that these were elements of both my platform and
Marcus Cassius Julianus' long before the Amici Dignitas Party Platform
became a topic of discussion. Indeed, I, at least, hadn't even read your
declaration when I posted my statement of candidacy. The issues of calling
the Assemblies and putting together the civil law code have been around
since the very beginning of Nova Roma; I think it's quite disingenuous of
you to take credit for it. Next you'll be taking credit for inventing the
Internet...

> This is not to say that the Amici are not representing a bit more
> than that: we also favour clear guarantees of civil and human rights.
> M. Cassius Iulianus, a non-member of the Amici, also has this idea,
> but when I asked Vedius Germanicus whether he thought human rights
> were relevant to Nova Roma, he replied that he thought that
> macronations will do that for us adequately. His reasoning was that
> it is easy for the dissatisfied to leave Nova Roma.
>
> He is correct that there does exist a route of seeking redress
> through suit in U.S. federal and state courts for rights violations
> against individuals on the part of Nova Roma as a U.S. legal entity.
> That strikes me as something that would be disastrous for us. Not
> everyone will leave quietly if mistreated as Vedius seems to desire,
> nor should they be expected to.

While I am certain you felt this distortion (that I espoused a "love it or
leave it" philosophy) would sway some of the voters, I am pleased to report
that the full text of the debate is now available online at my candidacy
website (URL below).

If you'll peruse the chat transcript, what I actually said was that the
modern notion of human rights is moot in a micronation such as ours. After
all, we have no armies, no police, no weapons, no real authority over
anything but our own community. And yes, it is a voluntary community;
perhaps you think Citizenship should be mandatory?

> This is something that we must deal
> with both idealistically and realistically. We need our equivalent of
> a Bill of Rights, and no other kinds of laws, courts or popular
> voting can replace that element in our state system.

Much like we already have enshrined in our Constitution? I invite you to
read through Paragraph II.B. of that document which I penned with the help
of dozens of our Cives last year. Indeed, for someone who's running for an
office which deals so much with our Constitution, you seem woefully
ill-informed thereof.

> After our meeting, I am encouraged about the possibilities of
> working with my fellow magistrates and senators if I am elected as
> Praetor Urbanus. And rest assured that I will not forget in the
> details of the labour the all-important fact that law must protect
> the individual civis - every civis. Laws exist to protect and
> facilitate, not to be an obstacle or encumbrance to individual
> freedom or initiative.

So you advocate laws that protect an individual's right to, say, disrupt our
chat rooms? Or facilitate those who wish to spam the email list? Or protect
the right of those who want to beat others up at gatherings? All those
things are illegal right now. Are those the sorts of laws and Constitutional
provisions that you wish to overturn in your rush to freedom?

I, for one, don't think it's "authoritarian" to expect that our laws be put
in place to allow us to conduct ourselves in an orderly and civilized
manner. As I wrote earlier, as we lack the generations of tradition to
enforce certain Roman customs, we are forced to do so through legislation. I
still don't think that's "authoritarian", either; after all, as you pointed
out, nobody is forced to be here.

Everyone here knows what Nova Roma is supposed to be; a recreation of the
Roman Republic. To join us, knowing that, and later insist we change to
accomodate your views doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Do you join a chess
club and then claim you're being oppressed because they won't let you play
backgammon? Of course not; and since what we're doing here is so much more
serious than a mere game, I would think the principle would be obvious to
all here.

> If you agree with that, I would be glad to have your vote, and I
> remind you that all signatories of the Statement of the Amici
> Dignitates are pledged to that point of view as well.

I'm willing to let them speak for themselves on this issue. Many of them
don't seem too keen on having you speak for them any more...

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul

http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus


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Subject:	[novaroma] America Boreoccidentalis
From:	"Les Peterson" <procopious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:51:19 -0800

Lucius Mauricius Procopious Omnibus SPD

In order to encourage communication amongst the Nova Romani living in
America Boroccidentalis, I started a list at Egroups. It can be found at
AmericaBoreoccidentalis@--------
It is my understanding that our Propraetor is no longer an active cive, so I
took this action on my own. If I have over stepped any boundaries, I
apologize and will undo what I've done. If not, and this was an acceptable
action, I invite all Nova Romani in the Province to join the list.


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Subject:	[novaroma] The Candidate Chat
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:09:55 -0800

Ave,

I just wanted to vouch for Flavius Vedius, that he did come up with the debate idea...because him and I were discussing it on AIM while I was at work. I told him that he should have published it on the list because I knew that this very incident would happen...that someone, IE. the Amici dignitas, as stated by M. Apollonius, would plagerise the idea that Flavius Vedius had, which exactly happened. Which to me is very interesting. Anyway, the statement that Flavius Vedius was sent prior to Gn. Moravius's even mentioning a debate. Interesting indeed.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] To Vedius on Gender Issue
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 11 Dec 2000 21:18:53 -0500

Salvete;

I must say that Sulla has covered this territory excellently. Well argued,
Sulla!

I would only add this, in response to Piscinus' second-to-last last
paragraph, wherein he says:

> > You, Vedius, have expressed an opinion that all Nova Roma
citizens have
> > a right to leave Nova Roma whenever they feel they are being oppressed
or
> > wronged. That does not address the question of whether any citizen has
> > any rights while they still remain in Nova Roma.

Indeed they do. I urge you to look at paragraph II.B. of our Constitution,
which outlines the rights of our Citizens explicitly and in detail. I would
particularly draw your eye to paragraph II.B.5., which explicitly states
that individual citizens may appeal decisions of individual magistrates to
the Comitia Populi Tributa.

There, I believe, lies the ultimate safeguard of your rights; a direct
appeal to all of the People, organized into their respective Tribes. And
then, after that appeal has been made and (presumably) lost, one may leave
if they are still dissatisfied.

You do realize that I was the one who put this particular provision into our
Constitution? And yet you say I am "authoritarian", and come close to
outright calling me a Fascist. You, sir, are just a spoiled willful child,
who must rant and rail against any sort of perceived "authority", even one
under which you voluntarily put yourself. Indeed, I am beginning to suspect
that you joined us for no other reason than to flaunt your hatred of
authority and sow dissention. Nova Roma does not need Citizens such as
yourself, and certainly not Magistrates. If I may suggest yet another bit of
reading in our Constitution that you may find of use; Paragraph II.A.4.
(specifically the second half).

> > Your answer I regard as
> > essentially the same as that of Fabius. What rights any of us have
> > inside Nova Roma, some are now protesting, is being left to the
arbitrary
> > whims of some magistrates. What you seem to say in reply then is that
if
> > we do not like it, get out. If that is the case so be it, but it should
> > be so stated on Nova Roma's main page that we are a private association
> > that restricts, inhibits, or otherwise discourages some people from
> > joining Nova Roma.

Whining, self-righteous, professional victims? I'll be happy to recommend
that such folks be discouraged from applying for Citizenship.

> > Like Justinia Cassia has posted before, an attitude
> > of "love it or leave" is oppressive in nature in itself. I feel
citizens
> > do have rights within Nova Roma, but question whether they are being
> > allowed to equally exercise their rights.

The rights of the Citizens are enumerated in paragraph II.B. of our
Constitution. If you can point out any case where those rights have been
infringed, then please feel free to bring it to my attention. If elected
Consul, I am certain that all who know me know I will do my utmost to ensure
that those rights are upheld, and that any infractions of those rights are
redressed.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul

http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla [mailto:alexious@--------]
> Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 1:47 PM
> To: Gian G Reali
> Cc: novaroma@--------; germanicus@novaroma.org
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] To Vedius on Gender Issue
>
>
> Oh Gn. Moravius, you object, I see. Well M. Apollonius did not
> object to it when he
> made his post to NR's list (Message 13138). It is very
> interesting that there are
> differences between this. The Poll on Egroups shows that most
> people prefer this
> moderate version, this compromised version.
>
> Even our Constitution defers back to the Macronations of our
> residence. Look at
> (II.A.1). Where is states that Nova Roma recognizes any person
> who is Sui Juriis by
> the municipal laws of his or her domicile. This means that if
> you are 17 years old,
> and can vote in Russia, then technically you can vote in the
> election in Nova Roma.
> We will need proof though. :)
>
> What makes this provision any different than on requireing proof that your
> macronation must recognize your gender? Answer, Nothing.
>
> Even (II.b.2) states, the Right and obligation to remain subject
> to the civil rights
> and laws of the countries in which they reside or hold citizenship. This
> establishes the dual citizenship clause.
>
> Gn. Moravius, your wrong. Nova Roma is just like any other
> nation. We have laws
> that we must enforce. Good laws that do not take away from the
> credibility of Nova
> Roma. When I promulgated the Name change Edict, that was my sole
> purpose. We had
> to find a way of being able to enforce this edict. There was
> already precedent by
> having younger citizens already send in parental consent forms.
> With that in mind,
> I see no impediment for citizens who want to go by a different
> gender than what they
> phyiscally are IF they can provide documentation that their
> macronation recognizes
> them as the very same gender. So, a drivers license or any other
> macronational
> document that states gender will be sufficient enough for me to
> change someone's
> gender.
>
> Why should Nova Roma be any different? To make Nova Roma any
> different than any
> other macronation detracts from the very purpose of Nova Roma.
>
> And, since you object, I guess that means that you wont be going
> around trying to
> convince us that you are a woman and want to use Gnea Moravia
> Piscina? And
> utlimately you disagree with it and I am for it. Therefore we
> are at an impasse.
> However, here is the Poll on the NR website. Most people are
> either for a very
> strict edict or a compromised edict. Therefore I would say that,
> the current name
> change edict represents the People of Nova Roma very well.
>
> No, one should be given a choice to be recognized as a male or
> female. 19 20.00%
> Yes, one's Roman name should always reflect his/her actual
> gender(ie his/her legal
> gender). 34 35.79%
> Yes, but exceptions should be made for those living their real
> (not virtual) lives
> as the opposite gender. 33 34.74%
> I really don't care. 9 9.47%
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Censor
>
> Gian G Reali wrote:
>
> > Salve Vedius
> >
> > Scripsisti:
> > "Indeed; would you have an objection if everyone were required
> to send in
> > a
> > photocopy of their driver's license? We used to require everyone
> > snail-mail
> > their application for Citizenship, back in the early days; this wouldn't
> > be
> > too huge an imposition. No one has said anything other than we yield to
> > the
> > decision of the macronation of which any given Nova Roman is a citizen.
> > At
> > this stage, I see no reason not to leave this matter in the hands of
> > those
> > that have the infrastructure to decide it definitively. If you insist
> > that
> > everyone should send in a copy of their driver's license, in the
> > interests
> > of fairness, I might support that point of view. But I want to hear your
> > justification of it, first."
> >
> > Respondeo:
> >
> > I would indeed object to a requirement for a photocopy
> of a driver's
> > license, or comparable documentation, where additional and unnecessary
> > information would become included. With driver's licenses in
> particular,
> > there are differences between states, and between countries, as to what
> > information is found on a driver's license. In the case of Ohio, not
> > only would you receive a picture of my wry smile, but also my SSN. In
> > conjunction with other information I have provided Nova Roma in my
> > application for citizenship, I am not inclined to give you my social
> > security number too.
> >
> > With this issue on the Gender Edict there are several
> points involved.
> > First, unless the same information and documentation is required of all
> > applicants, then the edict is discriminatory in intent and in content.
> > It really does not matter who the edict is directed at. I would be more
> > favorable towards any edict which applies equally to all citizens.
> >
> > The second issue is whether Nova Roma has sufficient
> need for the
> > additional information. We do require some statement of age, if not
> > documentary proof, and do insist our younger members also provide
> > parental consent before joining with us. That information I would
> > consider Nova Roma having a sufficient need to request. Nova Roma does
> > not have sufficient need for information on what colour my mustache is
> > this month, or where it's been. Don't bother to ask me for a photograph
> > to prove I have one.
> >
> > A third point is that Nova Roma citizens come from different
> > macronations, with different standards, different documentation,
> > different laws regarding discrimination. I do not believe Nova Roma
> > should accept the standards of any macronation, but should pursue its
> > own. At the same time though we must be aware of the differences and
> > should attempt to limit conflicts of interest between our
> micronation and
> > the respective macronations of our citizens. Our rule of thumb
> should be
> > that we require the least amount of information, to avoid the greatest
> > amount of difficulties.
> >
> > An entirely different set of issues has then arisen out
> of the arguments
> > being made over the Gender Edict, and that concerns whether individual
> > citizens have any rights inside Nova Roma. Our Consul Fabius,
> who is now
> > a candidate for Praetor, has posted in the past that we citizens have no
> > rights. His justification for his view is that ancient Romans had no
> > rights, so neither should Nova Roma citizens. I have taken exception to
> > his view of Roman history in my previous posts, and to his view of Nova
> > Roma's Constitution, and to the implication of his words. A Praetor
> > Urbanus who believes citizens have no rights would not only be an
> > historical inaccuracy, and a poor recreation, but also a gross mistake
> > for any micronation claiming to follow a rule of law.

> > Free association is a civil right too. If you wanted
> to make a little
> > boys club, no girls allowed, that is your right Personally I would not
> > have seen any attraction in joining. If you wanted to then discriminate
> > among your membership, or applicants for membership, that too is your
> > right and the right of the organization as a whole, but only so long as
> > you state this is the case before hand. You should have mentioned you
> > were an offshoot of the BSA first. Should you wish to set up
> sodalitates
> > in Nova Roma that has exclusive membership requirements, that is your
> > right and I would support you having such a right. However, if you are
> > going to state that Nova Roma is open to ALL individuals with
> an interest
> > in ancient Rome, then let it be open to ALL on an equal
> footing. If Nova
> > Roma is meant for certain kinds of people alone, to the exclusion of all
> > others, then let me know beforehand so I know what kind of
> organization I
> > am being asked to associate. Otherwise you have infringed upon my right
> > to free association.
> >
> > Vale
> > Piscinus


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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Fund Raising and Taxation
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 11 Dec 2000 21:29:25 -0500

Salvete;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Les Peterson [mailto:procopious@--------]
> Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 8:38 PM
>
> Is there any way to set up direct deposit so that a small monthly donation
> can be made? I doubt I would miss $10 a month, that would be easier than
> $120 per annum.

Now _this_ is a terrific idea. I think Patricia Cassia has the right notion,
though; once our non-profit status has been verified by the IRS, such things
will doubtless be easier (I am tempted to say that banks have a different
rate schedule for non-profit corporations for such services, but I'm not
certain).

What about "planned giving", as well? Hopefully it wouldn't benefit us for
quite some time to come, but other non-profits do organize their supporters
to bequeath moneys and property in their wills. I know it sounds a little
morbid, but perhaps that too is something we should look into setting up. Do
we have any lawyers? (Yes, Sulla, I know...)

I'd like to see us with a nice endowment fund, collecting a steady stream of
interest, which we can then put into our annual spending. That's much
better, in my mind, than having to raise money each year just to cover
expenses. (Although I don't see anything wrong with one-time taxes to fund
specific projects, as long as they're defined in advance.)

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul

http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Fund Raising and Taxation
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:40:57 -0800

----- Original Message -----
From: "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 6:29 PM
Subject: RE: [novaroma] Re: Fund Raising and Taxation


> Salvete;
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Les Peterson [mailto:procopious@--------]
> > Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 8:38 PM
> >
> > Is there any way to set up direct deposit so that a small monthly
donation
> > can be made? I doubt I would miss $10 a month, that would be easier than
> > $120 per annum.
>
> Now _this_ is a terrific idea. I think Patricia Cassia has the right
notion,
> though; once our non-profit status has been verified by the IRS, such
things
> will doubtless be easier (I am tempted to say that banks have a different
> rate schedule for non-profit corporations for such services, but I'm not
> certain).
>
> What about "planned giving", as well? Hopefully it wouldn't benefit us for
> quite some time to come, but other non-profits do organize their
supporters
> to bequeath moneys and property in their wills. I know it sounds a little
> morbid, but perhaps that too is something we should look into setting up.
Do
> we have any lawyers? (Yes, Sulla, I know...)

Comment: This is really simple as long as one does not die intestate
(without a will). All one needs to do is to bequeath Nova Roma (most likely
the corporation) any set amount of money they want in the will. I, as a
paralegal, have written many wills. At least its a 3 line entry. :)
Something to the extent, "I bequeath $500.00 to the Corporation of Nova
Roma, incorporated in the State of New Hampshire." Something like
that...nothing too fancy. Hope that helps.

<Snip>

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor


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Subject:	[novaroma] Idea?? for website
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:14:34 -0800

Ave,

I know this should probably go to the Muses list.....but I am at work and I dont have the addy off hand. :) Anyway, I think we should form a resource and a biography of famous Romans. :) More indepth than the Biography.com listing. :) Searchable by name. Any thoughts?

I am thinking that we can link by ancient Authors, ie. Plutarch, as well as our own opinions? Any thoughts?

My reason behind this, is since we have many students and teachers contact us for information, we out to categorize our information on the website in a searchable format.



Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma


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Subject:	[novaroma] Interesting website - Cursus Honorum
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:45:50 -0800

http://ancienthistory.about.com/homework/ancienthistory/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Ftrentu.ca%2Fwww%2Fcl%2Fahb%2Fahb4%2Fahb-4-3d.html

I found this while I was browsing the web at work. :)

Hope you enjoy.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor


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Subject:	[novaroma] Interesting website - Introduction of Roman Offices
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:47:56 -0800

http://ancienthistory.about.com/homework/ancienthistory/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vroma.org%2F%7Ebmcmanus%2Fromangvt.html

Hope you all enjoy this!

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Subject:	[novaroma] Interesting website - a bit more advanced on Roman Offices
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:48:55 -0800

http://ancienthistory.about.com/homework/ancienthistory/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.com%2FAthens%2FAcademy%2F9040%2Fcursus.html

Hope you enjoy.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Subject:	[novaroma] Nice timeline
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:13:47 -0800

http://www.digitator.fi/roma/frames/tables/timeline.htm

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor


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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] The Candidate Debate
From:	Mike Macnair <MikeMacnair@-------->
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 02:54:53 -0500

Salvete!

Germanicus responded to Formosanus that

>Everyone here knows what Nova Roma is supposed to be; a recreation of the
>Roman Republic. To join us, knowing that, and later insist we change to
>accomodate your views doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Do you join a
chess
>club and then claim you're being oppressed because they won't let you play
>backgammon? Of course not; and since what we're doing here is so much more
>serious than a mere game, I would think the principle would be obvious to
>all here.<

Yes, but ...

The question is what aspects of the Roman Republic we are recreating. The
Constitution, etc., as I read it says that we are recreating the political
and religious order - not the social order of patria potestas, slavery and
clientage, etc.. Otherwise we would disenfranchise women, etc.
Reconstructing the social order of Roma Antiqua would be either a RPG, or a
piece of re-enactment (both of which NR denies it is) or a far-right nut
group intervention in modern politics.

Legal gender name regulation is foreign to this project, since (a) it is
unnecessary to a recreation of the political or religious order of the
roman republic; (b) legal gender name regulation is a modern concept; and
(c) in so far as Germanicus has argued that legal gender name regulation is
necessary to us to enforce what would have been enforced by social custom
in Roma Antiqua, it is an attempt to reconstruct the social order, not the
political or religious order. It is this last aspect which makes the gender
name regulation so dangerous to NR, since it threatens to associate it with
far-rightist politics.

Valete,

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister


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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] The Candidate Debate
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 00:16:15 -0800 (PST)

--- Mike Macnair <MikeMacnair@--------> wrote:

> It is this last aspect
> which makes the gender
> name regulation so dangerous to NR, since it
> threatens to associate it with
> far-rightist politics.

Please define "far-rightist politics".

Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus

=====
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HQ USAREUR/7A
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The Candidate Debate
From:	marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:44:16 -0000

Salvete,

I agree with a lot of what Scaevola said, but I would go as far as to
say that gender does not matter. If we disregard the part of Roma
Antiqua that disadvantages women, can we not let drop the other
negative gender aspects? I don't see it as a matter of great
impportance to the survival of Nova Roma, and I think there are far
more important things we can turn out attention to.

Valete,
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Candidate Debate
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:45:23 -0800

Mike Macnair wrote:

> Salvete!
>
> Germanicus responded to Formosanus that
>
> >Everyone here knows what Nova Roma is supposed to be; a recreation of the
> >Roman Republic. To join us, knowing that, and later insist we change to
> >accomodate your views doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Do you join a
> chess
> >club and then claim you're being oppressed because they won't let you play
> >backgammon? Of course not; and since what we're doing here is so much more
> >serious than a mere game, I would think the principle would be obvious to
> >all here.<
>
> Yes, but ...
>
> The question is what aspects of the Roman Republic we are recreating. The
> Constitution, etc., as I read it says that we are recreating the political
> and religious order - not the social order of patria potestas, slavery and
> clientage, etc.. Otherwise we would disenfranchise women, etc.
> Reconstructing the social order of Roma Antiqua would be either a RPG, or a
> piece of re-enactment (both of which NR denies it is) or a far-right nut
> group intervention in modern politics.
>

Comment: Actually, I am very much in favor of implementing a modified version
of Pataria Protestas, Clientage, and the Cursus Honorum. Are you saying that
you want to completely remove them and blot them out? I know there are some
negatives but there are some positives as well. What was ancient Rome if it
wasn't her Families? What was ancient Rome without the elders guiding the
younger citizens? Tradition was something valued in ancient Rome....to do away
with those guiding influences Republican Rome devolved, when you look at the
overall picture.

>
> Legal gender name regulation is foreign to this project, since (a) it is
> unnecessary to a recreation of the political or religious order of the
> roman republic; (b) legal gender name regulation is a modern concept; and
> (c) in so far as Germanicus has argued that legal gender name regulation is
> necessary to us to enforce what would have been enforced by social custom
> in Roma Antiqua, it is an attempt to reconstruct the social order, not the
> political or religious order. It is this last aspect which makes the gender
> name regulation so dangerous to NR, since it threatens to associate it with
> far-rightist politics.

I disagree, M. Mucius, we at Nova Roma have a distinct setback from
macronations on top of the fact that we do not have land. That other setback
is a lack of bureauacy. We do not allow the names of Biggus Dickus, Glutius
Maximus, or for that matter agnomen of distinction, such as Felix, Pius, Rex,
Augustus et al. The Gender consistency of naming is no different. Why do we
have those checks? Because if we dont, then Nova Roma is belittled. Why do
you want Nova Roma belittled?

All one needs to do is to supply macronational proof, what is so hard about
people doing that? Our young citizens provide documentation from their parents
that they give consent to their child to join NR. Citizens who have no email
access mail in their application. Heck, when I joined NR, I snail mailed my
application to Flavius Vedius, and I had to even change my name through snail
mail til I was approved. Should NR go back to having all citizens snail mail
their applications to show their dedication? There is precedent for that, for
that is how NR started.

Its amazing to me how when people do not get their way, they start crying,
Fascism, Right-wing, Nazi and Holocaust. Do you people know who you are
talking too? I am a Jew, a Jew who lost relatives in the Holocaust. Who sued
California Baptist College because they fired me because I am Jewish!!! I sued
under the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and 1994, and Title IX. I was in the Front
Page of the Press Enterprise (A newspaper in Riverside County, CA) because of
the very nature of my law suit and that I was a student at the college at the
time. And, I suffered through my lawsuit while I was getting a Masters Degree
in the VERY COLLEGE I was suing. That very lawsuit took 2 years to resolve and
was resolved 1 month before I got my Masters Degree in Business Administration.

So, before you start getting defensive and start toutting the near "right wing,
Naziesque, etc" statements you start proclaiming take a step back and reflect.
Because I think most of you are making a big noise over nothing! We, already
have checks on Roman Names or else we would have 40 Biggus Dickus's in NR.
Countless numbers of Verpa's and Gloutis Maximi!

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Candidate Debate
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 00:05:24 -0800

Jeff Smith wrote:

> --- Mike Macnair <MikeMacnair@--------> wrote:
>
> > It is this last aspect
> > which makes the gender
> > name regulation so dangerous to NR, since it
> > threatens to associate it with
> > far-rightist politics.
>
> Please define "far-rightist politics".
>
> Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus

Yeah I would like to hear that too, since no person is prevented from joining
or for that matter leaving NR. Anyone can hold offices (political or
otherwise) and all that NR asks for is consistency with their macronations!
Interesting, here NR is a micronation, trying to hold the same standard of
macronations and we are being called right wing? I call it logic. So, based
on M. Mucius's view we should allow every Catamita, Verpa, Glutius Maximus,
and Biggus Dickus in NR!

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor


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Subject:	[novaroma] Candidate Debate
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 00:54:30 -0800

Ave Citizens of Nova Roma

At the very upset request of one of the Amici Dignitas, M. Marcius Rex,
I have been requested to furnish documentation that Flavius Vedius
initially came up with the debate. Lucky for him, he came to me
privately. ;) Because the last thing I want to happen is for a
candidate to make a public spectale of himself. So, I have gone to
Flavius Vedius's website. And here is a quote about it from Candidate
Flavius Vedius himself. You can check it out at
www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus:

Debate Proposal (12/11): Amazingly, I sent this email to the two
candidates for Consul on the 2nd. On the 3rd, the Amici Dignitas
announced their intention to hold debates. Coincidence? You tell me...

Now here is the actual email that Flavius Vedius wrote:

CONSULAR DEBATE PROPOSAL
Sent to the candidates for Consul 12/02

Salvete;

I was wondering if you would be willing to engage in a public debate in
some sort of chat room? We'll have to figure out the format, of course,
but I think it could be the start of a valuable tradition.

I realize it's somewhat short notice (given that voting begins in five
days), but I would be more than willing to participate in such an
endeavor. It would give our Citizens a great way to be able to
distinguish the differences in our respective approaches to the issues
of the day. (I would add that the candidates for some of the other
contested offices might consider doing something similar.)

What say you, my worthy rivals for the esteemed office of Consul? Would
you be willing to participate in such a debate? And if so, who would you
like to see as moderator, and what sort of format? If we're going to
organize this, we must act swiftly.

Let us revive the ancient institution of the Contio; let the people hear
us speak our minds prior to the election.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul

So, M. Marcius Rex, if you have any more impolite posts, I recommend
that you contact Fl. Vedius Germanicus, the person who sent this post to
M. Cassius and Vado. If this is what we can expect with M. Marcius Rex
and myself as Censor, I pray for Nova Roma.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] personal attacks, insinuation and so on....
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 05:17:59 EST

In a message dated 12/10/2000 12:18:14 PM Pacific Standard Time,
yquere@-------- writes:

<< This electoral campaign, full of petty
discussions, shows every sign of what is absolutely unnecessary in political
life : personnal attacks, insinuation and so on... To put it in an nutshell,
it is always easier to break one's opponent's reputation down than to be
fully honnest and integer. Moreover, the kind of behavior underlined by
these meaningless arguments seems totally in opposition with the Roman
Values we are supposed to share. >>
Salve I.Querius Armoricus Lutecio,
Actually this is tame. So far we have had no villa burning, mobs roaming the
streets, paid trouble makers disrupting the candidate Forums, or sexual
insults being hurled back and forth. Compared to elections in the late
Republic, this has been a walk in the park so far.
Vale
Q. Fabius
candidate for Praetor Urbanus
http://romanrepublic.org/campaign/Fabius/


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Subject:	[novaroma] Virtues (was: personal attacks, insinuation and so on....)
From:	"Caius Flavius Diocletianus" <3s@-------->
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:21:25 +0100

Salvete, Quirites
Salvete, Q. Fabi Maxime et I. Queri Armorice Lutetio.

I agree with both of you.

Quinte Fabi, I hope that those late-republic-campaigns will never come back.
Of course, our election campaigns are *very* moderate compared with the
ancient campaings. But the level of debate is sometimes indeed very low, and
I imagine what happens if we had a real Forum. I hope that this is not the
roman spirit we all want to live.

As you, I. Queri, said well: This behaviour seems in opposition with the
Roman Values we are supposed to share. That´s the reason why I was quite
silent during this campaign. That´s the reason why I did not took part in
those main-list "discussions".

Sometimes I visit the page about the Roman Virtues at novaroma.org
(http://www.novaroma.org/via_romana/virtues.html). This was one of the first
pages I read before I decided to join our republic. Some Virtues for our
candidates, including myself:

Comitas
Gravitas
Honestas
Humanitas
Pietas
Prudentia
Severitas
Veritas
Aequitas
Concordia
Justica
Nobilitas
Pax

I always tried, and try, to make these virtues, and all the other virtues
listed, a part of my life.

Valete
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Citizen
Candidate for Praetor Urbanus
www.diocletian.de/elect/diocletianus/



----- Original Message -----
From: <sfp55@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] personal attacks, insinuation and so on....


> In a message dated 12/10/2000 12:18:14 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> yquere@-------- writes:
>
> << This electoral campaign, full of petty
> discussions, shows every sign of what is absolutely unnecessary in
political
> life : personnal attacks, insinuation and so on... To put it in an
nutshell,
> it is always easier to break one's opponent's reputation down than to be
> fully honnest and integer. Moreover, the kind of behavior underlined by
> these meaningless arguments seems totally in opposition with the Roman
> Values we are supposed to share. >>
> Salve I.Querius Armoricus Lutecio,
> Actually this is tame. So far we have had no villa burning, mobs roaming
the
> streets, paid trouble makers disrupting the candidate Forums, or sexual
> insults being hurled back and forth. Compared to elections in the late
> Republic, this has been a walk in the park so far.
> Vale
> Q. Fabius
> candidate for Praetor Urbanus
> http://romanrepublic.org/campaign/Fabius/


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Candidate Chat
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:29:20 +0100

Salvete,

Allow me to jump in on this debate of the candidate chat (a quite petty
debate, I might add). Sometimes ideas can have seperate origins, but at
about the same time. To my recollection, the statement of the Amici
Dignitatis, as posted by the undersigned on November 22. Quote follows:

*************
In order to further promote the principles of democratic process in Nova
Roma, we propose to sponsor and support open communication among all
citizens of the Res publica through varied means:
1) Sponsor open fora in which all citizens of Nova Roma may
participate.
2) Sponsor moderated civil debate before all citizens.
3) Provide a multilingual list, known as the Dignitas list, for
political discussions separate from the Nova Roma main list.
4) Sponsor, support, and/or assist in the establishment of lists for
each provincia and territory in its native language as well as the Nova Roma
lingua franca.
5) Arrange, coordinate and schedule chats between cives of our varied
provinciae to promote international communication within Nova Roma.
6) Assist all cives in participating in Nova Roma's political life by
providing information on Nova Roma political institutions in the varied
languages of the Res publica.
7) Encourage and provide nonpartisan assistance to all citizens in
preparing position papers on their ideas for posting to the Dignitas list.
8) Provide nonpartisan information concerning issues to be presented to
the varied comitia, and on candidates for major and minor magistracies.
*************

It looks quite like the seeds of the basic idea here for a Forum chat.
Please people, stop this nonsense à la "I was first, I was first"! An author
may claim credit for his own ideas, and certainly when injustice is being
done, but is this point really so important? Don't make mountains out of
molehills.

Valete!
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
<< PETITOR AEDILIS PLEBIS >>
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
--**--
Novaromain? Parlez-vous français? Cliquez ici!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_GalliaBelgicaF
Nieuwromein? Spreekt u Nederlands? Klik hier!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_BelgicaBataviaD
Novaroman? Interested in philosophy? Click here!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_Philosophy
Novaroman? Interested in politics? Click here!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_DignitasForum


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] personal attacks, insinuation and so on....
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:17:43 +0100

Salve Consul Maxime,

----- Original Message -----
From: <sfp55@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] personal attacks, insinuation and so on....


> In a message dated 12/10/2000 12:18:14 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> yquere@-------- writes:
>
> << This electoral campaign, full of petty
> discussions, shows every sign of what is absolutely unnecessary in
political
> life : personnal attacks, insinuation and so on... To put it in an
nutshell,
> it is always easier to break one's opponent's reputation down than to be
> fully honnest and integer. Moreover, the kind of behavior underlined by
> these meaningless arguments seems totally in opposition with the Roman
> Values we are supposed to share. >>
> Salve I.Querius Armoricus Lutecio,
> Actually this is tame. So far we have had no villa burning, mobs roaming
the
> streets, paid trouble makers disrupting the candidate Forums, or sexual
> insults being hurled back and forth. Compared to elections in the late
> Republic, this has been a walk in the park so far.
> Vale
> Q. Fabius
> candidate for Praetor Urbanus
> http://romanrepublic.org/campaign/Fabius/

What streets did the mobs have to roam? :-D.

Vale,
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
<< PETITOR AEDILIS PLEBIS >>
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
--**--
Novaromain? Parlez-vous français? Cliquez ici!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_GalliaBelgicaF
Nieuwromein? Spreekt u Nederlands? Klik hier!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_BelgicaBataviaD
Novaroman? Interested in philosophy? Click here!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_Philosophy
Novaroman? Interested in politics? Click here!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_DignitasForum



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Candidate Chat
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:51:58 US/Central

Salvete

Sulla scripsit:
"I told him that he should have published it on the list because I knew that
this very incident would happen...that someone, IE. the Amici dignitas, as
stated by M. Apollonius, would plagerise the idea that Flavius Vedius had,
which exactly happened."

It is unsurprising that such an idea would occur in parallel to several
different people at roughly the same time. Much the same thing has occurred
with the various candidates' platforms; many people saw a need and thought to
fill it. This is not a case of plagiarism, though I can understand that it may
appear so.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus



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Subject:	[novaroma] Edictum secundum provinciae Argentinae
From:	"Lucius Pompeius Octavianus" <octavianuslucius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:07:18 -0000

This is an edictum propraetoricium enacted by Praetor Lucius Pompeius
Octavianus

I. The Provincia Argentina hereby joins the Limes Cooperation.
II. The co-operation is not restricted in its scope of application
but
shall
cover in particular the following fields:
a) Provincial infrastructure (e.g. Web-Site development)
b) Development of common provincial administrative standards
c) Organisation of conferences and meetings
d) Co-ordination of research projects of common interest
III. The co-operation shall be implemented by all means necessary and
available in an internet-environment. In particular a restricted e-
mail-list
shall be established for this purpose. A scriba shall be responsible
for
its
moderation.
IV. The co-operation is open to all provinces of Nova Roma which have
been
established by Senatus Consultum. The respective provincial governor
may
join the co-operation by enactment of an edictum making the co-
operation
applicable in the respective province.
V. Any disputes arising out of the co-operation shall be settled by
way
of
mediation. A mediator has to be agreed upon by all affected
governors.

Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Praetor Provinciæ Argentinæ


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Subject:	[novaroma] Debate
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:31:46 -0600

12 Dec 2000

Salve All

It would seem to me that due to the nearing end of our election period, the majority of citizens have now voted. Any continuing aggressive posting can now only serve to divide our Republic, and will not change those that have already cast their votes. Debate is fine, but much of what is appearing on the main list now is not condusive to a united, productive, micro-nation.... All should be thinking of the massive job we have ahead of us once these elections are over, a job that can only be done with the combined effort and input of all our citizens!

Vale

Quintus Sertorius
Praetor
Canada Occidentalis


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Candidate Chat
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:50:05 -0600 (CST)

Salve Tite Labiene,

> It is unsurprising that such an idea would occur in parallel to several
> different people at roughly the same time. Much the same thing has occurred
> with the various candidates' platforms; many people saw a need and thought to
> fill it. This is not a case of plagiarism, though I can understand that it
> may appear so.

Agreed; it is pointless to make an actual issue out of who first had the
obvious idea that a live debate was desireable. If one side or the other
tries to take credit for "sponsoring" it, then the opponent would be
right to point out that it was an obvious idea that was participated in
equally by all involved, but going beyond that is a waste of time.

Can we not agree that a live debate was desired by all candidates
involved, was equally participated in by all and "sponsored" by none,
and leave it at that?

Vale, Octavius.

---
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Candidate Debate
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:51:55 US/Central

Salve L Corneli

> Interesting, here NR is a micronation, trying to hold the same standard of
> macronations and we are being called right wing?  I call it logic.  So, based
> on M. Mucius's view we should allow every Catamita, Verpa, Glutius Maximus,
> and Biggus Dickus in NR!

First, you are utterly misrepresenting M Mucius' position.

Second, the position you take is not consistent with the policy of the
macronation in which I live. The situation in the US is complex, as the issue
of legal names is left to the states. However, there are close to thirty US
citizens who have legally named themselves God, and a certain pair of
celebrities are named Dweezil and Moon Unit. Indeed, one person named himself
an unpronounceable symbol.

Third, though you will likely say that it is my position, I am not in favor of
allowing frivolous names in the door at the moment. I am not certain that
there needs to be a law against it, as the censores are given the authority
necessary to weed out such applicants. Where we differ is upon the asusmption
inherent in your argument; that those cives who wish to be known by a name that
is of a different gender than their bodies are necessarily making a frivolous
request.

Vale
T Labienus Fortunatus



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Subject:	[novaroma] Fw: Candidates Forum
From:	Gian G Reali <piscinus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:27:26 -0800

Salvete Quirites

For one brief moment Sunday night most of our candidates for the higher
magisterial offices came together for a panel discussion. This was the
Candidates Forum. The discussions were civil, afterward many stayed for
even jovial chatter. I recall pleasentries passing between Formosanus
and Germanicus. Obviously there would not now be such sniping over whose
idea it was, had it not been so successful.

May I interject a couple of comments about this latest round of
squabbling. Below is the initial invitation I sent out to all of the
candidates on 12/3/2000. One look will tell you that this was not a
spirit of a moment invitation, but one that had been planned earlier.
The invitation was NOT made on behalf of the Amici Dignitatis. I
specificaly went out of my way to avoid the initiative appearing as an
initiative of the Amici Digintatis. You will note that the original
invitation is made to the individuals who were candidates intended to
appear on the panel, and two other ladies, Pompeia Cornelia and Livia
Cornelia. Such proposals had been discussed within the Amici Dignitatis
for months prior. And I am sure the thought to hold such a forum
occurred to others as well, independent of comments by their opponents.
The initiative that did lead directly to the Candidates Forum did not
come from either camp.

The success of such an event is not the result of the originator, or the
initiator of the proposal. It took considerable cooperation between all
the candidates. Even the candidates who were unable to attend had a hand
in determining the final schedule. Once the initial invitation was
issued, and a moderator selected, Pompeia Cornelia and I primarily
coordinated this Candidates Forum, and included Sulla as he was trying to
organize some other event.

Credit for the success of the event as it happened, really should be
placed with Pompeia, who acted as our hostess and moderatrix. By her
moderate presence, firm but gentle example, the candidates were led to
remain within the proposed format. I thank all the candidates who
participated. I thank all the citizens who came to see the Candidates
Forum. But I especially thank our hostess Pompeia Cornelia for a very
pleasent night of discussion.

Di vos semper ament.

Gn. Moravius Piscinus
Flamen Cerealis

--------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Gian G Reali <Piscinus@-------->
To: vze23hw7@verizon.net,marcheinz@aol.com,n_moravius@--------,
cassius622@aol.com,germanicus@--------
Cc: iadams@earthlink.net,3s@hsk-net.de,bvm3@--------,
scriba_forum@hotmail.com,gmvick32@uswest.net,sfp55@--------
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 23:34:54 -0800
Subject: Candidates Forum
Message-ID: <20001203.233455.-775269.5.Piscinus@-------->

Salvete candidate

Elections begin this coming Thursday. Earlier I had posted that I
would like to begin sponsoring Nova Roma fora. The first forum I
suggest will be a "Get to Know Your Candidates" night. Because of the
time differences involved, I have found from past experience that the
easiest time of day to schedule cross Atlantic chats is 21.00 GMT. Not
all of you will be able to come, I know. But I wish to afford you all an
opportunity to come together one night in the taverna before elections
begin. If things work out well, and you would like to have further
formats throughout the elections, I will be open to assist in anyway I
may.

For our first Candidates Forum I will announce tomorrow that the forum
will take place on Wednesday 6 December comitiales at 21.00 GMT (4:00 PM
EDST US = 10:00 PM Central Europe) in the tavern of the Forum Romanorum.
The forum will be for candidates for the offices of Censor, Consul and
Praetors alone. As a candidate for Tribune I will not participate in the
forum itself. I shall ask some non-candidates if they will act as host
and promptor. If none of them can attend, then I shall play host to
initiate the forum. After that, only candidates will be expected to
speak. A promptor will send the name of whoever turn it is to speak, and
no more.

The format will be as follows. Beginning with the senior office and the
senior candidate for that office, candidates will take turns making an
initial statement. Since the taverna has a limit on the size of any one
message sent, we will limit the initial statement to three-line-sent
messages for each candidate. Afterwards, we will return to the top of
the roster. Each candidate will then be given an opportunity to ask a
one-line-sent question to any of the other candidates. A question must
be initiated with the name of the candidate being addressed. That
candidate will then be able to make a three-lines-sent answer. We will
continue with the question and answer segment up to two hours, depending
on how many candidates show up. Afterwards, the floor will be opened.
Citizens may directly ask questions of any candidates that remain.

The order I propose for our candidates to follow will be:

Lucius Equitus Cincinnatus
Marcus Marcius Rex
Marcus Cassius Julianus
Flavius Vedius Germanicus
Nicholus Moravius Vado
Q. Fabius Maximus
Sergius Australicus
Diocletianus
Apollonius Formosanus
Marius Cornelius Scipio

If you will contact me by Wednesday 10.00 AM EDST US = 15.00 GMT I will
include the names of only those who have agreed to attend in a final
announcement for the Candidates Forum. I remind all candidates that the
following day, 7 December, is the 2043 anniversary of the execution of
Cicero by one of Marc Antonius' clients. I shall close the Candidates
Forum at Midnight 7 December Roma time in Cicero's honor.
Prepare your thoughts. Prepare your hearts. This is meant to remain a
civil presentation to a group of primarily first time voters. Remember
also that following the elections, regardless who wins, we will still all
be working together for the benefit of the same Nova Roma.

Bonam fortunam.

Gn. Moravius Piscinus
Flamen Cerealis

________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Idea?? for website
From:	"J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@-------->
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:51:20 -0500

Ave!

"L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:

> Ave,
>
> I know this should probably go to the Muses list.....but I am at work and I dont have the addy off hand. :) Anyway, I think we should form a resource and a biography of famous Romans. :) More indepth than the Biography.com listing. :) Searchable by name. Any thoughts?

We should also have a resource list for various aspects of Roman life, including URLs. Aspects might include re-enactors, mythology and religion links, university departments, etc. Also a listing of who has what, resource-wise, in our Nova Roma. For example, I subscribe to
the Journal of Roman Archaeology. This way, cives can query specific sources and not go hunting all over the place.

> I am thinking that we can link by ancient Authors, ie. Plutarch, as well as our own opinions? Any thoughts?

Also maybe have ISBNs of in-print *good* translations of their work, or books on them?

S. Ambrosia Fulvia


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Subject:	[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): pridie Idus Decembres (December 12th)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 19:14:54 -0800

Salvete omnes

Here is the religious posting for today.

Valete in pace deorum
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex

*********************************
Today is a 'dies endotercisus' which is a day that function as 'dies
nefastus' (no legal action can take place) in the morning and 'dies
comitialis' (both legal action and popular assemblies can take place) in the
afternoon.

Today is a festival of Consus, a God of grain and granaries. This festival
together with the Consualia (December 15th) probably celebrates the harvest
and sowing of Autumn.

The month of December is sacred to Vesta.


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Subject:	[novaroma] Gender Laws
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus III" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 21:48:02 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Censor Sulla has been trying to make his gender edict look reasonable in
a more quiet and circumspect way than usual, so I shall be quiet and
circumspect too.

Mucius Scaevola Magister very reasonably criticised the fact that this
kind of legislation is directed at social rather than truly and
appropriately legal ends. I think that to be a very good argument that
should be seriously considered.

However, I want to give a much simpler argument: if we want a friendly
society here we have to treat each other in a friendly way - especially
if we are officials and represent the whole group. If one of us says he
wants to use a masculine/feminine name in good Roman form and asks the
censor to register it so, a *friendly* reaction would be to oblige with
a smile, not with an investigation into whether he has a "right" to do
so. The civis would be happy and the Respublica would be unharmed.
Unnecessary tension and animosity would be avoided all around, and
everyone could get on with the real and pleasant work of building Nova
Roma, secure that no one was out to make life difficult for us.

I would like to see us have a friendly and mutually-supportive society
like that. One that was truely tolerant, kindly and magananimous, one
directed to our real goals and not to playing power games over others. I
am not opposed to rules really necessary for our public order - but we
should not legislate laws that are just a nuisance or even a heartbreak
for others just because we have power to do it. It would solve lots of
problems if we were just a bit nicer to each other. And those who hold
the power of our State should show the way.

Valete!

M. Apollonius Formosanus,
Candidate for Praetor Urbanus


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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] The Candidate Debate
From:	Mike Macnair <MikeMacnair@-------->
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:47:51 -0500

Salvete!

L. Aetius Dalmaticus wrote,

>Please define "far-rightist politics".<

In my post to which this is a reply I wrote,

>>as I read it says that we are recreating the political
>>and religious order - not the social order of patria potestas, slavery
and
>>clientage, etc.. Otherwise we would disenfranchise women, etc.
>>Reconstructing the social order of Roma Antiqua would be either a RPG, or
a
>>piece of re-enactment (both of which NR denies it is) or a far-right nut
>>group intervention in modern politics.

I think it should be pretty clear that modern advocacy of (a) removing the
vote from women, requiring all women to have male guardians without whom
they could form no contract and take no legal action, and giving fathers
absolute power over their children; and (b) the restoration of legal
chattel slavery, would be a political position well to the right of e.g.
the British Conservative, American conservative-Republican, French
Gaullist, etc. parties (i.e. of any mainstream rightist political party).
No doubt there are some neo-fascist micro-groups which advocate policies
akin to (a), and I guess it is conceivable that there are some groupuscules
in the US which advocate (b). Clientelism is, of course, still practised in
the politics of several countries, but shamefacedly, and to defend it as
good political practice would be outre even from fascists.

This said (taking the opportunity to reply partially to Sulla) not all
far-right nut groups are neo-nazis or antisemitic. There are also (a) far
right religious fundamentalist groups, (b) some variants of US "militia"
(c), indeed, Isaeli far-right zionist groups. To say that advocacy of
restoring the social forms of roman antiquity is far-rightist is not to
accuse its advocates of nazism.

So what's "far-right"? Put bluntly, just as there are masses of micro-sects
(communist, maoist, trotskyist, left-anarchist, etc) to the left of the
main left parties (Socialist, Labour, liberal-Democrat) so there are also
masses of micro-sects to the right of the main right parties. What makes
them far-right is difficult to pin down, but I guess a common element is
"hatred of disorder" carried to the point that constitutional politics
appears an intolerable obstacle and a leftist conspiracy (just as, for the
far left, constitutional politics appears as a rightist conspiracy).

The former citizen Festus argued openly on the main list that NR citizens
should find the American Fascist Party interesting, and that Roma Antiqua
was "fascist". No-one else has gone this far, but there's been a good deal
of borrowing from far-right arguments about the vices of democracy to
support the view that people should shut up about the Gender Edict, which
is general legislation never put to the Comitia, i.e. steps taken from
"hatred of disorder" in too much of a hurry to use normal constitutional
mechanisms for something this important.

Valete,

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Candidate Debate
From:	Mike Macnair <MikeMacnair@-------->
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:55:44 -0500

Salvete!

Sulla wrote,

>So, based on M. Mucius's view we should allow every Catamita, Verpa,
Glutius Maximus,
> and Biggus Dickus in NR!<

Actually I have no problems with Catamita (toyboy) or Verpa (prick), both
of which are perfectly good Latin and - given the obvious playground-style
origin of many cognomina, like Sulla (stainface) and Caesar (baldy), may
well have been used in antiquity even if we don't have evidence for them.
Gluteus Maximus, too, is just a high-falutin' prat(fall). Biggus Dickus is
not latin at all.

Valete,

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister


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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Candidate Debate
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:00:41 -0500

Salve,

I suppose I ought to pipe up here, as *I* am the reason that a public notice
of my esteemed husband's desire to initiate a debate did not appear here on
the main list.

He spoke to me of his desire to have a debate with the candidates, and,
indeed, it was *I* who suggested to him that he would do best to contact all
parties privately in order to organize such an event BEFORE announcing it on
the list.

That, dear cives, is why there was no public mention by Flavius Vedius of
debates. For the record, I *still* think it was best for him to approach
candidates privately, as he did at the time.


Oh well, mea culpa. ;)

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena







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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Candidate Debate
From:	Mike Macnair <MikeMacnair@-------->
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:09:14 -0500

Salve Sulla!

You wrote,

>Comment: Actually, I am very much in favor of implementing a modified
version
>of Pataria Protestas, Clientage, and the Cursus Honorum. <

As to the Cursus Honorum, this is a matter purely of political ordering,
and I have no doubt that NR should move towards implementing it, though it
is clear that as long as we remain relatively new and relatively small
there will be practical limits. As we get bigger and the provinces get
stronger, there may be a case for requiring a period of provincial service
by way of analogy to the military service required before entry on the
Cursus in Roma Antiqua.

As to clientage, I would be interested to see your defence of a practice
which, as far as I can tell, was regarded as questionable even in Roman
constitutional thought (you don't find a defence in Cicero, for example,
unless I am mistaken).

There is no doubt that we should normally honour our parents and our
ancestors (no doubt it is easier for me to believe this since I have
teenage daughters...). Patria potestas, however, is not the same thing. It
is (was) a formal legal structure under which the Pater, the oldest living
male of a stirps, had legal powers over his sons and daughters, including
originally the power of life and death and throughout history the power of
sale. I cannot see how there can be a "version" of patria potestas, no
matter how far "modified", which is consistent with the existing
constitutional guarantees in NR.

Vale,

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

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Subject:	Applying for weird names (was Re: [novaroma] The Candidate Debate)
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 22:21:15 +0100

[If you don't like vulgar Latin humour, skip this please]

Salvete,

A hacker has recently entered the Censorial archives and has discovered the
following people applying for citizenship and being denied, because of their
name solely, even though it was Latin! Shame on Nova Roma, and on the
Censores! Sic indignitas magna! *fat wink*.

Imbecilis Stultus
Ichtifallus Magnus
Crassus Flatulens
Pornelius Maximus
Anus Niger
Deus ex Machina
Dux Fascis (nice try Festus!)
Coitus Interruptus
Vagina Dentata
Lupa Aperta
Hannibal Lector

You know, only to see some of those hilarious names I would run for
Censorship ;-).

Valete,
Draco

PS: On a more serious note, whilst browsing the Album Gentium, I noticed
that there was a gens Johnia or something along those lines. With all due
respect to its pater- or materfamilias, but I find that name absolutely
unroman. The Romans didn't really know the "J", and they certainy didn't
know any words that had an "h" before an "n", according to my knowledge. If
there can be a Johnius in NR, I'm applying for Biggus Dickus today!


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Subject:	Re: Applying for weird names (was Re: [novaroma] The Candidate Debate)
From:	SyanneRose@--------
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:07:41 EST

Salve Draco,



I can only say verrrrrrrrrrrrry intresting.



Vale
Aeternia



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Candidate Chat
From:	Piparskegg UllRsson <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:37:20 -0600

Salvete Omnes,

As for the parallel thinking on the subject by different folks here in
Nova Roma.

I liken it to a theory I've seen presented about technological advances
happening due to the sheer weight of mankind's knowledge pushing such
advance, like the weight of the ice pushes forth the leading edge of a
glacier.

Let's just say that the sheer weight of discussion in our society
a-building acted as impetus upon those, of all stripe, to think in a
similar vein at the same time.

A good idea whose time had come

--
===========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis, Benedicte Omnes!
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Coves, Paterfamilias Gens Ulleria
Quæstor, Dominus Sodalis
My homestead
http://www.geocities.com/piparskegg/index.html
Nova Roma website
http://www.novaroma.org/main.html
Sodalis pro Coqueror et Coquus
http://www.egroups.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq


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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The Candidate Debate
From:	"natasha Aiken" <natashaaiken@-------->
Date:	Tue, 12 Dec 2000 23:38:57 -0000

Salvete!

> of legal names is left to the states. However, there are close to
thirty US
> citizens who have legally named themselves God, and a certain pair
of
> celebrities are named Dweezil and Moon Unit. Indeed, one person
named himself
> an unpronounceable symbol.

Indeed, I have a cousin that was born in the U.S. and his legal name
is Jesus Christ. That is not to say that we call the child by that
name but is IS his legal name which his mother gave him and NO I will
not go into details but it is true!!

valete,

Natalia


--- In novaroma@--------, labienus@t... wrote:
> Salve L Corneli
>
> > Interesting, here NR is a micronation, trying to hold the same
standard of
> > macronations and we are being called right wing?  I call it
logic.  So, based
> > on M. Mucius's view we should allow every Catamita, Verpa,
Glutius Maximus,
> > and Biggus Dickus in NR!
>
> First, you are utterly misrepresenting M Mucius' position.
>
> Second, the position you take is not consistent with the policy of
the
> macronation in which I live. The situation in the US is complex,
as the issue
> of legal names is left to the states. However, there are close to
thirty US
> citizens who have legally named themselves God, and a certain pair
of
> celebrities are named Dweezil and Moon Unit. Indeed, one person
named himself
> an unpronounceable symbol.
>
> Third, though you will likely say that it is my position, I am not
in favor of
> allowing frivolous names in the door at the moment. I am not
certain that
> there needs to be a law against it, as the censores are given the
authority
> necessary to weed out such applicants. Where we differ is upon the
asusmption
> inherent in your argument; that those cives who wish to be known by
a name that
> is of a different gender than their bodies are necessarily making a
frivolous
> request.
>
> Vale
> T Labienus Fortunatus


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