| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 1131 |
| From: |
"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Dec 2000 19:41:00 -0500 |
|
Salvete, Quirites
Lucius Equitius: I just want to make a few comments on some of the posts
today.
Subject: Deliberate Verbal Conflict
Salvete, Friends, Nova Romans and Countrymen;
I too am somewhat confused by the continuous outcry regarding Civil
Rights...
This incessant harping on a single aspect gets on everyone's nerves...
There have been several items brought before the Senate in which I did
not get my way as well,...
By continuing this constant complaint, you disrupt the enjoyment of
others,...
I ask you all, to consider your speech and actions.
Valete, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
Lucius Equitius: Thank you for your wise words, Consul Audens
From: "Nicolaus Moravius" <n_moravius@-------->
Subject: Romanitas Old and New
Quiritibus salutem
As a Consular Candidate I would like to state briefly my position on certain
elements of the "Nova Roma and Modernity" debate. No - what the Hades, I'd
want to state them anyway...
1. CIVIL RIGHTS
Lucius Equitius: Citizens rights are guaranteed in the Consititution. Are
there things that specifically need to be added?
2. WOMEN IN SOCIETY
Lucius Equitius: I don't recall this being an issue...
3. BLOOD SACRIFICE AND ANIMAL RIGHTS
I think Lucilla Cornelia Cinna put it beautifully. Tha ancient sacrificial
practice of slaughtering was far more humane, pious and dignified than the
industrial death-factory methods too often used in the modern world.
Lucius Equitius: Yes, This is one reason that 'modern' society is having the
problems it's having. People today, for the most part, are insulated from
real life. I think that is a reason for many of those who joined Nova Roma.
Note, however, that in Roman blood sacrifice only food animals are offered.
Lucius Equitius: See Graecus' note on this. I don't believe that dogs were
eaten either.
4. ON CLIENTELA
The Roman system of clientela is impossible to reconstruct without the
reinstitution of slavery.
Lucius Equitius: I don't view this as an extension of slavery, but as an
obligation of mutual support among citizens. Certainly, a freedman was
obligated to his former owner but the former owner (patron)was also
obligated to his client. I will state that the word 'slavery' is so charged
in the modern context to be discussed without an understanding of the
situation in Ancient times.
For a good source of information I recommend:
Slavery and Society at Rome by Keith Bradley
Cambridge University Press 1994
ISBN 0-521-37887-7
6. NOVA ROMA - LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT - A THIRD OPTION
Nobody has to go away, but sometimes we do need to stay out of each other's
way. Avete N. Moravius Vado
Lucius Equitius: Ita! Thank you Vado.
I believe that this is the real problem. Others trying to force their
feelings and opinions on everyone else. I disagree with many of the
statements of those posted to this list, but everyone is intitles to there
own opinion. The problem I have is when someone assumes that their opinion
is the *ONE true, valid, right, human, intellegent, reasonable, etc. way to
think, act, believe etc.
Subject: RE: Blood Sacrifices
Salve M' Villi Limitane
>What I would feel evil is sacrifying without eating, that is not the case
>in the ancient blood sacrifices.
Well, in fact that is not COMPLETELY right. There were some exceptions to
that. The sacrifice of the Robigalia (on April 25) is one of the exceptions.
The Flamen Quirinalis sacrificed an ewe and a dog to Robigo. While the ewe
was surely eaten, I'm not so sure that the dog was. In this case, the
religious symbol of the sacrifice was surely stronger than the feeding
purpose.
Valete, Antonius Gryllus Graecus
From: Mike Macnair <MikeMacnair@-------->
Subject: Book, Birthdays & Blood Sacrifice
Salvete!
Robert Turcan, The Gods of Ancient Rome is now available in English
translated by Antonia Nevill (Edinburgh UP, 2000).
Valete,M. Mucius Scaevola Magister
Lucius Equitius: It is to be published in Dec.200 for $65 USD from
Amazon.com (US)
Message: 23
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 22:57:56 -0000
From: nramos@--------
Subject: On Blood Sacrifices
Salve Quirites!
I know this is going to shock some folks, but the practice of blood
sacrifices is alive and well in the modern world. In my life outside
Nova Roma, I grew up within the tradition of "Santeria", also known
as the Yoruba religion of Olokumi (of the Orishas). I am an initiate of
that religion, and I have been a "Babalawo" or "Father of Secrets"
since age 11. One of my roles within the practice of my religion is
carrying out sacrifices.
Lucius Equitius: Just to make a couple of notes for the 'un-initiated' The
Yoruba are the people who live in what is now roughly modern Nigeria and
their religion is called IFA.
Santaria is the new world joining of Catholicism and Ifa mostly in Cuba and
Puerto Rico.
VooDoo is from an entirely different African system, but I believe it too is
related to Catholic belief and is found in the French new would colonies.
Ever since I first took a knife in hand to sacrifice and offering to
the Orishas, I was always taught to treat the animal with respect and
compassion - to kill it as painlessly and swiftly as possible. After
the sacrifice, the meat was either consumed by us or given to those
who could use it. In some cases this meant giving it to poor
neighbors who would condemn us in their christian churches for our
"idolatry"
but were secretly grateful for our help.
Lucius Equitius: Some sacrifices are not eaten as they are 'cleansing'
rituals to rid the subject of some negative.
I have heard some decry it, some actually come close to describing
it, and I wanted to give you the perspective of someone who has actually
done it and believes in it. If you don't like it - I respect your
opinion and think you have every right to think that way. Please do
the same for me.
Lucius Equitius: Ita.
BTW, December has several days sacred to the Orishas - most notably
Chango, the Orisha of war and thunder.
Lucius Equitius: December 6th
Vale!Marius Cornelius Scipio
Lucius Equitius: Cabo Sile! The King is not dead!
Mars nos protegas
Valete, Lucius Euqitius Cincinnatus Candidatus Censori
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| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Blood Sacrifices |
| From: |
"M. Papirius Justus" <papirius@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Dec 2000 20:29:09 -0500 |
|
And just to add another *important* detail, let us remember that the
sacrifice itself is done on an altar (even if that altar is simply made of
turf) and that what primarily distinguishes sacrifice from a barbecue is
that the gods are present and feed on the smoke. I do not know of any
judaeo-islamic-christian divinity who might be prayed to prior to the
slicing of the turkey who would also be deemed to be actually 'partaking'
in the meal and further, require such participation to survive.
mpj
At 11:58 PM 14/12/2000, you wrote:
>What I would feel evil is sacrifying without eating, that is not the case
>in the ancient blood sacrifices.
Well, in fact that is not COMPLETELY right. There were some exceptions to
that. The sacrifice of the Robigalia (on April 25) is one of the exceptions.
The Flamen Quirinalis sacrificed an ewe and a dog to Robigo. While the ewe
was surely eaten, I'm not so sure that the dog was. In this case, the
religious symbol of the sacrifice was surely stronger than the feeding
purpose.
Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
]|[M. Papirius Justus]|[ http://web.idirect.com/~atrium ]|[
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| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] On Blood Sacrifices |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Dec 2000 21:44:16 -0500 |
|
Salvete;
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nramos@-------- [mailto:nramos@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 5:58 PM
>
> Salve Quirites!
> I know this is going to shock some folks, but the practice of blood
> sacrifices is alive and well in the modern world. In my life outside
> Nova Roma, I grew up within the tradition of "Santeria", also known as
> the Yoruba religion of Olokumi (of the Orishas). I am an initiate of
> that religion, and I have been a "Babalawo" or "Father of Secrets"
> since age 11. One of my roles within the practice of my religion is
> carrying out sacrifices.
I would add that several of the more reconstructionist-minded Germanic
Heathen groups also practice animal sacrifice; a fascinating description of
the ceremony may be found at http://frontpage.webzone.net/gerda/frames.htm .
I have also heard tell that certain groups in Israel are studying the
techniques in preparation for the re-establishment of their Temple, and if I
am not mistaken, animals killed during Ramadan are also considered animal
sacrifices and are done with a certain amount of ceremony (but I confess
Islam is not exactly an area of expertise for me).
Valete,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul
http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Deliberate Verbal Conflict |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Dec 2000 21:51:26 -0500 (EST) |
|
Salve, Senator Magister;
I believe that I have enough understanding of the Election Campaign to
realize that Verbal Conflict must take place. You very kind enumeration
of the events was appreciated but not entirely necessary, since I have
been here all along.
Unfortunately, you do not comment on my statement regarding the
difficulty in getting "back to battery" after given the lie by another.
You do not comment on my statement regarding the disruption by insult,
and you do not comment on my statement about the hopeful modification of
the personal attacks on this list. These above items were the thrust of
my post and the meaning of the word "Deliberate." At least one new civ,
has seen the meaning of my earlier post and has verified my fears of
what the new members to NR must deal with.
I am fully aware that there are two groups at odds, and I am fully aware
what the major difference is. However, I do not see, and I do not
believe you do either, how the insults passed on this list can be
ignored after the election is over, and the newly elected Magistrates
work with the old as though nothing had happened.
I will admit that the title of my post was not to the exact point, but
on the other hand, the exact point is in language that I try not to use.
My post appealed to those who are verbal to the extent of hurting others
and ignoring the needs of others to modify thier approach. Apparently
at least one Candidate has read my message wrong, thinkinfg that my
words invited him to leave NR, when I really meant , "Please leave (let)
us (snip) enjoy NR in other areas---." My apologies if my wording
indicated more than one meaning.
In closing, it is not my desire or intention to invite anyone to leave
NR. It is not my intention to deny anyone the right to say what needs
to be said. It has never been my intention to rob anyone of thier
dignity or thier honor. It has, however, been my honor and Oath to
carry out the duties of my office to the best of my ability, and I have
done so to my own satisfaction, which is, as I have said before, far
more critical than any other. However, I do object to deliberate
insult, deliberate twisting of word and intent, and I object strongly to
the deliberate attempt to make the Minority the winner of any decision
by continued complaint, character assassination, harrassment and insult.
There are other avenues of activity to use in the settlng of disputes.
I simply ask that those who are not satisfied with the Majority
Decision, to use them.
Vale, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
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| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Deliberate Verbal Conflict |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Dec 2000 22:21:56 -0500 |
|
Salvete;
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jmath669642reng@-------- [mailto:jmath669642reng@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 9:51 PM
>
> I am fully aware that there are two groups at odds, and I am fully aware
> what the major difference is. However, I do not see, and I do not
> believe you do either, how the insults passed on this list can be
> ignored after the election is over, and the newly elected Magistrates
> work with the old as though nothing had happened.
I must, uncharacteristically, disagree with our esteemed Consul. I, for one,
am perfectly capable of putting aside the rancor of the campaign when the
dust is settled and getting down to work with whomever I have to. As I've
said before, "it's just politics". Just look at the miraculous political
shifts that have effected us over the years; who would have thought last
year August that I would have endorsed Cincinnatus for Censor? Who would
have thought two years ago that Sulla and I would be even speaking to each
other? Who knows; maybe in a year Piscinus and I will be the best of
friends.
Well, it could happen. Theoretically. ;-)
Similarly, I must say that I am not, and with one or two exceptions I think
the rest of the field of this years' candidates share this attribute with
me, such an ideologue that I am incapable of working with anyone who doesn't
share my vision for the direction of our Republic. Cohors Senex, Amici
Dignitas, or neither; we're all going to have to get down to the business of
day-to-day governing come January, and as one who's been in that particular
seat before may I share of bit of wisdom I've picked up:
In politics, grudges cost far more than they're worth.
Valete,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Candidate for Consul
http://www.goldenfuture.net/germanicus
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: On Blood Sacrifices |
| From: |
cassius622@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Dec 2000 22:33:09 EST |
|
Salvete,
Blood sacrifice seems to be one of those topics that comes up at least once a
year. No matter how Nova Roma deals with this issue there will no doubt be
unsatisfied folks, I suppose.
--- In novaroma@--------, nramos@s... wrote:
> Salve Quirites!
> I know this is going to shock some folks, but the practice of blood
> sacrifices is alive and well in the modern world. In my life outside
> Nova Roma, I grew up within the tradition of "Santeria", also known
> as the Yoruba religion of Olokumi (of the Orishas). I am an initiate of
> that religion, and I have been a "Babalawo" or "Father of Secrets"
> since age 11. One of my roles within the practice of my religion is
> carrying out sacrifices.
Cassius:
A close friend/roommate of mine a few years back was very involved with
Santeria. Although I have no opinion on the religion itself, I personally
can't say I cared for the rituals specifically involving blood sacrifice.
Watching my friend pull the head off a live chicken with her bare hands to
offer blood to an Elegua (sp?) just didn't instill me with religious feeling
as an onlooker. While there are Santeria rituals where the sacrificed animals
are eaten, the chickens killed in this way are considered unclean and not
eaten. Instead a process of divination is done to establish where the body of
the chicken is to be placed afterward - often in a public place such as a
park, the steps of a courthouse, a crossroads, a cemetery, etc.
I'm certainly not squeamish. I've lived in farm country and have had to kill
my share of poultry, etc. And, to be honest, I was more turned off by the
Santerian practice of smoking cigars to the deities and spitting rum at them,
than I was over the sacrifices! Can't stand the smell of cigars! :P
Obviously, personal taste and inclination are factors in all choices of
religious worship.
>
> Ever since I first took a knife in hand to sacrifice and offering to
> the Orishas, I was always taught to treat the animal with respect and
> compassion - to kill it as painlessly and swiftly as possible. After
> the sacrifice, the meat was either consumed by us or given to those
> who could use it. In some cases this meant giving it to poor
> neighbors who would condemn us in their christian churches for our
"idolatry"
> but were secretly grateful for our help.
Cassius:
I haven't seen the Santeria sacrifices involving a knife, (am I wrong in
remembering that the Babalawo is the only one who can use a knife in
sacrifice? It's been years...) but I'm sure it's done cleanly and
compassionately. The rites I've seen involving chickens seemed to me at least
a little less so... with the live chicken being offered and waved around for
a couple of minutes before the death, and that sometimes coming hard since it
was by physical strength rather than an implement.
It's great that you were able to share out the meat to neighbors who were in
need of it. My friend went to Florida for a few of the more important
initiations, where four-footed animals were sacrificed. I do know the meat
was eaten, but wasn't aware that it could be shared out to others who hadn't
participated in the ritual itself.
> I have heard some decry it, some actually come close to describing
> it, and I wanted to give you the perspective of someone who has actually
> done it and believes in it. If you don't like it - I respect your
> opinion and think you have every right to think that way. Please do
> the same for me.
Cassius:
I don't think that anyone here would decry blood sacrifice in Santeria. It's
very much off topic, just for starters. The real issue here is blood
sacrifice in the Religio Romana, and there are sure to be both pro and con
views. I personally don't care for sacrifice... and have hopes that it won't
be necessary to "officially" sanction it in Nova Roma. This view however
concerns the Religio only, and should not be misconstrued to be a judgement
of any other faith or path.
Valete,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Digest Number 1131 |
| From: |
"natasha Aiken" <natashaaiken@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Dec 2000 08:57:45 -0000 |
|
Salvete!
> Lucius Equitius: Just to make a couple of notes for the 'un-
initiated' The
> Yoruba are the people who live in what is now roughly modern
Nigeria and
> their religion is called IFA.
> Santaria is the new world joining of Catholicism and Ifa mostly in
Cuba and
> Puerto Rico.
> VooDoo is from an entirely different African system, but I believe
it too is
> related to Catholic belief and is found in the French new would
colonies.
Santeria is also practiced in Brazil and other places in South America
It is actually just Voudon by another name, in Jamaica they call ir
Obeah. The Orishas are the pantheon of the Traditional West African
religion and will be found anywhere in the New World were West
Africans were taken as slaves, The West Indies, Central and South
America, traditional religion was greatly suppressed by American
slave owners though which is why the slaves in America forgot the
ancient practice,(with the exception of Louisiana, which was, of
course a French colony, the slaves having decended from the West
Indian slaves in Haiti, the first West Indian country to gain it's
Independance BTW!)
The American slave owners thought that the slaves would become
rebellious if they were allowed to worship their Gods and suppressing
them would make the slaves more subserviant, they were taught about
the Christian God and the fact that because the were soulless they
could not gain his grace.
The reason why Voudon, Obeah and especially Santeria is associated
with Christianity (Santeria= Saints) is because it was useful to
hide the mythology of the Orishas, with the mythology of the Catholic
Saints, most followers of Traditional African Religion in the West
would call themselves Christian in day to day life.
In a similar way the Celtic Goddess Brigit was taken over by the
mythology of the Saint of the same name under Christianity.
valete,
Natalia
-- In novaroma@--------, "Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@v...> wrote:
> Salvete, Quirites
>
> Lucius Equitius: I just want to make a few comments on some of the
posts
> today.
>
> Subject: Deliberate Verbal Conflict
> Salvete, Friends, Nova Romans and Countrymen;
>
> I too am somewhat confused by the continuous outcry regarding Civil
> Rights...
> This incessant harping on a single aspect gets on everyone's
nerves...
> There have been several items brought before the Senate in which I
did
> not get my way as well,...
> By continuing this constant complaint, you disrupt the enjoyment of
> others,...
> I ask you all, to consider your speech and actions.
> Valete, Respectfully;
> Marcus Audens
>
> Lucius Equitius: Thank you for your wise words, Consul Audens
>
>
> From: "Nicolaus Moravius" <n_moravius@-------->
> Subject: Romanitas Old and New
>
> Quiritibus salutem
>
> As a Consular Candidate I would like to state briefly my position
on certain
> elements of the "Nova Roma and Modernity" debate. No - what the
Hades, I'd
> want to state them anyway...
>
> 1. CIVIL RIGHTS
>
> Lucius Equitius: Citizens rights are guaranteed in the
Consititution. Are
> there things that specifically need to be added?
>
> 2. WOMEN IN SOCIETY
>
> Lucius Equitius: I don't recall this being an issue...
>
> 3. BLOOD SACRIFICE AND ANIMAL RIGHTS
>
> I think Lucilla Cornelia Cinna put it beautifully. Tha ancient
sacrificial
> practice of slaughtering was far more humane, pious and dignified
than the
> industrial death-factory methods too often used in the modern world.
>
> Lucius Equitius: Yes, This is one reason that 'modern' society is
having the
> problems it's having. People today, for the most part, are
insulated from
> real life. I think that is a reason for many of those who joined
Nova Roma.
>
> Note, however, that in Roman blood sacrifice only food animals are
offered.
>
> Lucius Equitius: See Graecus' note on this. I don't believe that
dogs were
> eaten either.
>
> 4. ON CLIENTELA
>
> The Roman system of clientela is impossible to reconstruct without
the
> reinstitution of slavery.
>
> Lucius Equitius: I don't view this as an extension of slavery, but
as an
> obligation of mutual support among citizens. Certainly, a freedman
was
> obligated to his former owner but the former owner (patron)was also
> obligated to his client. I will state that the word 'slavery' is so
charged
> in the modern context to be discussed without an understanding of
the
> situation in Ancient times.
> For a good source of information I recommend:
> Slavery and Society at Rome by Keith Bradley
> Cambridge University Press 1994
> ISBN 0-521-37887-7
>
> 6. NOVA ROMA - LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT - A THIRD OPTION
>
> Nobody has to go away, but sometimes we do need to stay out of each
other's
> way. Avete N. Moravius Vado
>
> Lucius Equitius: Ita! Thank you Vado.
> I believe that this is the real problem. Others trying to force
their
> feelings and opinions on everyone else. I disagree with many of the
> statements of those posted to this list, but everyone is intitles
to there
> own opinion. The problem I have is when someone assumes that their
opinion
> is the *ONE true, valid, right, human, intellegent, reasonable,
etc. way to
> think, act, believe etc.
>
>
> Subject: RE: Blood Sacrifices
> Salve M' Villi Limitane
>
> >What I would feel evil is sacrifying without eating, that is not
the case
> >in the ancient blood sacrifices.
> Well, in fact that is not COMPLETELY right. There were some
exceptions to
> that. The sacrifice of the Robigalia (on April 25) is one of the
exceptions.
> The Flamen Quirinalis sacrificed an ewe and a dog to Robigo. While
the ewe
> was surely eaten, I'm not so sure that the dog was. In this case,
the
> religious symbol of the sacrifice was surely stronger than the
feeding
> purpose.
>
> Valete, Antonius Gryllus Graecus
>
> From: Mike Ma--------r <MikeMa--------r@-------->
> Subject: Book, Birthdays & Blood Sacrifice
>
> Salvete!
>
> Robert Turcan, The Gods of Ancient Rome is now available in English
> translated by Antonia Nevill (Edinburgh UP, 2000).
> Valete,M. Mucius Scaevola Magister
>
> Lucius Equitius: It is to be published in Dec.200 for $65 USD from
> Amazon.com (US)
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 22:57:56 -0000
> From: nramo--------..
> Subject: On Blood Sacrifices
>
> Salve Quirites!
> I know this is going to shock some folks, but the practice of blood
> sacrifices is alive and well in the modern world. In my life outside
> Nova Roma, I grew up within the tradition of "Santeria", also known
> as the Yoruba religion of Olokumi (of the Orishas). I am an
initiate of
> that religion, and I have been a "Babalawo" or "Father of Secrets"
> since age 11. One of my roles within the practice of my religion is
> carrying out sacrifices.
>
> Lucius Equitius: Just to make a couple of notes for the 'un-
initiated' The
> Yoruba are the people who live in what is now roughly modern
Nigeria and
> their religion is called IFA.
> Santaria is the new world joining of Catholicism and Ifa mostly in
Cuba and
> Puerto Rico.
> VooDoo is from an entirely different African system, but I believe
it too is
> related to Catholic belief and is found in the French new would
colonies.
>
> Ever since I first took a knife in hand to sacrifice and offering to
> the Orishas, I was always taught to treat the animal with respect
and
> compassion - to kill it as painlessly and swiftly as possible. After
> the sacrifice, the meat was either consumed by us or given to those
> who could use it. In some cases this meant giving it to poor
> neighbors who would condemn us in their christian churches for our
> "idolatry"
> but were secretly grateful for our help.
>
> Lucius Equitius: Some sacrifices are not eaten as they
are 'cleansing'
> rituals to rid the subject of some negative.
>
> I have heard some decry it, some actually come close to describing
> it, and I wanted to give you the perspective of someone who has
actually
> done it and believes in it. If you don't like it - I respect your
> opinion and think you have every right to think that way. Please do
> the same for me.
>
> Lucius Equitius: Ita.
>
> BTW, December has several days sacred to the Orishas - most notably
> Chango, the Orisha of war and thunder.
>
> Lucius Equitius: December 6th
>
> Vale!Marius Cornelius Scipio
>
> Lucius Equitius: Cabo Sile! The King is not dead!
>
> Mars nos protegas
> Valete, Lucius Euqitius Cincinnatus Candidatus Censori
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] unsubscribe |
| From: |
"Chris ." <brennus1998@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Dec 2000 02:59:28 -0600 |
|
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem XVIII Kalendas Ianuarias (December 15th) |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Dec 2000 11:19:07 -0800 |
|
Salvete omnes
This is a dies nefastus publicus (NP), a day for special religious
observance in which no legal action can take place.
Today is the Consualia, a festival in honour of Consus, the God of the
granary. There are 2 Consualia during the year, the other falling on August
21. These festivals are possibly intended to celebrate the end of the
harvest (August) ant the autumn sowing (December). There is a sacrifice,
offerings of fruits, and the horse races and chariot races in the Circus
Maximus. Horses and asses are garlanded and allowed to rest. Consus has an
altar and assotiated subterranean barn precisely in the Circus Maximus. The
altar is kept underground and is exposed on July 7 and August 21, with burnt
sacrifices offered in July by the "sacerdotes publici" (state priests) and
in August 21 by the Flamen Quirinalis with the Vestal Virgins in attendance,
the latter sacrifices as part of the Consualia. The altar is probably
exposed during the Consualia of December 15, with similar sacrifices being
offered.
As a final note, Consus is a deity often associated with Ops. As Ops is the
Goddess of the provisions of the state, and Consus is the God of the
subterranean barn in the Circus Maximus, it seems that the original role of
Consus was the underground protection of the grain. The sacrifices of the
Consualia may thus mark the dates when the grain is carried to the
underground barn after the harvest (August 21) and when the grain is to be
taken from the barn for the next sowing (December 15) - remember that the
Saturnalia is almost there, Saturnus being the God of seed and sowing.
(Just for your information, Consus has also a temple on the Aventine Hill
where the people offer the first fruits of the year)
The month of December is sacred to Vesta.
Valete in pace deorum
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Blood Sacrifices |
| From: |
"Iunia Apollonia" <iunia@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Dec 2000 14:49:52 +0200 |
|
Salvete,
In the Islamic tradition, after the month of Ramadan (we're in the month of Ramadan right now) there is the "Kurban Bayrami", meaning the Sacrifical Feast, where animals, mostly a ram but sometimes bigger animals as bulls or smaller animals as cocks are sacrificed with the Imam present, saying prayers. The meat is then cooked and some eaten by the family and some given to neighbors or to those in need. The Sacrifice is done on outdoors, on earth most of the time. The animals that are bought are usually kept for around a week in the backyard or on the property and are fed well and adorned with blue beads (nazar boncugu) to keep them from the evil eye and it's important the animals are kept well and healthy until the day they are sacrificed. They are sacrificed by cutting the throat but that sometimes turns into a horrible event as some "butchers" don't know how to properly do it and I have witnessed very bad scenes in my childhood.
This whole tradition is said to go back to Abraham, who was told to sacrifice his son Isaac, but was given a ram to sacrifice instead. The Jews kept the tradition until the times they Temple of Solomon was destroyed, but after the destruction, since there was no Holy of Holies and the altar, the tradition was meaningless and didn't carry on with blood sacrifice, but with prayers before meals instead.
The same tradition lives with Islam, after the month of Ramadan and a month of feasting, the Sacrifices take place, and in my opinion, it's not a pleasing sight. (I should know, as I live in Turkey)
Speaking of sacrifices, I thought this would be relevant to the subject.
Valete
Iunia Apollonia
And just to add another *important* detail, let us remember that the
sacrifice itself is done on an altar (even if that altar is simply made of
turf) and that what primarily distinguishes sacrifice from a barbecue is
that the gods are present and feed on the smoke. I do not know of any
judaeo-islamic-christian divinity who might be prayed to prior to the
slicing of the turkey who would also be deemed to be actually 'partaking'
in the meal and further, require such participation to survive.
mpj
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Dog Sacrifices |
| From: |
Gian G Reali <piscinus@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Dec 2000 10:10:21 -0800 |
|
Salvete Grylle et Equiti
Why would you assume we do not eat sacrificed dogs too? (:^p
Di inferi vos salvom et servatum volunt.
Cn Moravius Piscinus
Flamen Cerealis
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Fabulous Sacrifices |
| From: |
Gian G Reali <piscinus@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Dec 2000 10:11:32 -0800 |
|
Salvete Quirites et Fabius Maximus:
Before our good consul would again propose we reinstitute blood
sacrifices, perhaps he should consider reinstituting another practise of
Roma Antiqua. Had a consul in ancient times made such a sacriligeous
substitute as a lab rat for an appropriate sacrifice to any of the Di
consentes, and then compounded this sacrilege by renouncing his
nuncupatio before the gods by sacrificing something else, he would have
been held sacer esto. He would himself have been regarded dedicated as a
sacrificial victim and probably would have been torn apart by the mob.
O Fabi, votum solvire debes.
Di consentes nos incolumes custodiant.
Cn Moravius Piscinus
Flamen Cerealis
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Vedius in amicitia |
| From: |
"Rita Reali" <ritasax@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:15:0 -0800 |
|
Salve Vedi
Vedius scripsisti:
"Who knows; maybe in a year Piscinus and I will be the best of
friends.
Well, it could happen. Theoretically. ;-)
"
I doubt it will take us a year. {You aren't a
dog lover by any chance? ;^ ) }
I prefer working for balance and consensus, knowing
full well that what one sows one day they are sure to reap the next.
Cicero's: "Ut sementem feceris, ita metes." As he would surely have
known.
Expressed by candidates from every side, of every
issue, has been the recognition of a need to establish clear and simple
judicial procedures. With that is the other issue of civil rights.
There can be no citizens rights without a judicial system to enforce them; no
judicial system without the protection of individual rights, and as Scaevola
Magister said, neither may be accomplished in an adverse political
atmosphere. To achieve a full and integrated system will require the
consuls, praetors, and tribunes working together. To create a system
acceptable for all citizens will require input from the broadest range of
opinions. But the underlying necessity of a political atmosphere to
support both will come only from us working collectively. I shall
look forward to working with you, Vedius.
In one of my earlier emails to the candidates I
suggested that we all gather in the taverna once more after the
elections. This would be a way for our new magistrates to field questions
from citizens in our audience. Also it would provide a means for all of us
to meet in a more convivial manner. I again suggest, win or lose, that all
candidates arrange to meet for a chat in the taverna during this
time between the end of the election and the taking up of offices.
In amicitia, bene vale
Cn Moravius Piscinus
.
piscinus@--------
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Nova Roma goes SF: story announcement |
| From: |
"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Dec 2000 18:22:59 +0100 |
|
Salvete Quirites Novae Romae,
I take it that many remember Festus' occasional follow-ups of a story he was writing, set during the reign of emperor Nero, featuring many of us distinguished gentlemen and -women. As he resigned his citizenship, that story never got worked out. It's not my plan to continue this story (that would be plagiarising him), but rather to write a totally different one. The only similarity is that it will also feature many Novaromani, if not all who post regulary on this list. No one will be depicted in a shocking manner. Some satire is expected though ;-).
If someone wishes to be included in it, drop me a line and tell me something about yourself. If not, let me know just as well.
And yes, it is science fiction. The story itself has a typically Roman planet as a background, namely Mars. It it set somewhere at the end of the 21st century, where Nova Roma has finally become a true city with many colonies. Expect togas and Senators, dust storms and comets, panem et circenses, suspense and mystique. But above all, expect the unexpected!
The intro will probably be posted within a few days (after the election announcements), although two chapters have already been written. Constructive criticism is always appreciated, but I'd prefer to have it privately than to discuss it on-list.
Valete bene,
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
<< PETITOR AEDILIS PLEBIS >>
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 1132 |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Dec 2000 14:33:20 -0500 (EST) |
|
Salve, Senator Germanicus;
Sir, I salute your wisdom. It is few indeed, who can earnestly assure
NR (as you so eloquently have) of your ability to work with anyone no
matter what is said during the election campaign.
You will excuse me sir, if I admit to a slightly greater reluctance to
forgive a deliberate insult. My background as a military officer rather
than a politician preceeds me I suppose.
I applaud you ability to foreswear the necessity of the "grudge," and
hope that your example will inspire me to also forgive my detractors
with your ease and complete finality.
Vale, Very Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
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