Subject:	[novaroma] Eat Up Your Sacrifice!
From:	"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@-------->
Date:	Sun, 17 Dec 2000 00:21:43 -0000

Quiritibus salutem

I wrote:

> Note, however, that in Roman blood sacrifice only food animals are
offered.

Cincinnatus replied:

> Lucius Equitius: See Graecus' note on this. I don't believe that
>dogs were eaten either.

Referring to this observation by Graecus:
.
> Well, in fact that is not COMPLETELY right. There were some
exceptions to
> that. The sacrifice of the Robigalia (on April 25) is one of the
exceptions.
> The Flamen Quirinalis sacrificed an ewe and a dog to Robigo. While
the ewe
> was surely eaten, I'm not so sure that the dog was. In this case,
the
> religious symbol of the sacrifice was surely stronger than the
feeding
> purpose.

Respondeo:

I am indebted to Pontifex Graecus for pointing out that the God of Mildew
used to receive a once-yearly sacrifice of a dog. What I find most curious
here is that both Cincinnatus and Graecus are happy to accept that the sheep
was eaten afterward, but that the dog wasn't. Why?

To me it is evident that the Romans were one of those peoples (like the
Chinese) who would eat virtually anything; and besides, it is traditional in
the Religio Romana for the worshippers to partake of the sacrifice (as it is
not always in the Greek).

Now if I thought that the God of Mildew really wanted me to kill a dog once
a year, I'd also assume he'd be offended if I didn't want to share it with
him.

I recall also that the October Horse was another of those Roman sacrifices
of an animal most of us moderns wouldn't readily thinkof as a food animal.
I can imagine your average ancient Roman would reply: "tomacula!"
("sausages!"). My view is, if one is taking a traditionalist approach which
insists on killing animals, one should be consistent and eat them, too. To
my mind, if it serves to discourage a detached attitude to taking life,
that's no bad thing.

Bene valete

Vado
(who eats most things but has never been able to bring himself to eat either
horse or dog).


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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Eat Up Your Sacrifice!
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:10:20 -0500

Salvete;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nick Ford [mailto:gens_moravia@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 7:22 PM
>
> I recall also that the October Horse was another of those Roman sacrifices
> of an animal most of us moderns wouldn't readily thinkof as a food animal.
> I can imagine your average ancient Roman would reply: "tomacula!"
> ("sausages!"). My view is, if one is taking a traditionalist approach
which
> insists on killing animals, one should be consistent and eat them, too. To
> my mind, if it serves to discourage a detached attitude to taking life,
> that's no bad thing.

If I may say, as I understand it the eating of both horses and dogs is quite
current in Korean and Vietnamese cuisine (and I would imagine Chinese as
well, but I am woefully under-informed about east Asian cooking; goulash,
matzo ball soup or chicken francese I can make, but I can't even attempt an
egg roll without tragedy resulting).

I am also told by someone who grew up in Sicily that horse is indeed a
common item on the menu there even today in the more rural areas; I know
that there are ranches in Texas that provide horsemeat for human
consumption. I'm also told that many Carribbean markets carry horse, which
tells me it's at least not uncommon in the Carribbean. (As horsemeat was
central to a particular ritual in Norse heathenry, it's an issue that's come
up in certain circles.)

So it's not so much of a "modern" thing, so much as a cultural thing. (And
even some parts of western Europe don't find it that objectionable...)

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus


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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Vedius in amicitia
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 16 Dec 2000 20:57:45 -0500

Salvete;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rita Reali [mailto:ritasax@--------]
> Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 3:00 PM
>
> I doubt it will take us a year. {You aren't a
> dog lover by any chance? ;^ ) }

Actually I am... ;-) Always had a dog growing up; always a mutt. Now we have
cats. Cats are okay. Especially our little Tigger, but he acts like a dog,
following me from room to room if I happen to get up and go someplace else
in the house.

> I again suggest, win or lose, that all
> candidates arrange to meet for a chat in the taverna during this
> time between the end of the election and the taking up of offices.

If I may, while I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment, I think it's much
more important that the winners show up to such a conference, as they can
actually _do_ the things that are discussed. Either way, I certainly think
it is a good thing.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus


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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Guaranteed Free Pizza
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Sun, 17 Dec 2000 02:26:59 -0000

Salvete,

While I hope to see a "Bill of Rights" added to the official NR
documentation, it seems to me that the basic rights listed in the
Constitution have been in fact a good start toward defining our
community. There are two points that Vado's paraphrasing of the
Constitution that I must specifically respond to:


> 1. Complete authority over their own personal and household
rites, rituals, and beliefs, pagan or otherwise; except where this
Constitution mandates participation in the rites of the Religio
Romana, such as the case of magistrates and Senators;

> (You have the right to believe what you like, unless you are a
magistrate)

Cassius:
That is incorrect. Magistrates are free to believe what they like.
This clause speaks specifically of the possibility of future public
gatherings, where the *physical presence* of a magistrate, (such as
the Consuls) might be required for a State ritual to be performed.
There is no problem with having a Consul who doesn't practice or
believe in the Religio Romana... but there could easily be a problem
with a Consul who might refuse to be present at a State event/ritual
on grounds of their own personal beliefs.

Can you imagine the chaos at a public function, if a Pontiff got up
to do a prayer to Concordia or something, and the Senior Consul were
to storm out of the room, loudly complaining that we were doing the
work of Satan by calling upon false gods? It's not that far fetched a
scenario. It must be understood that anyone wanting a magistracy will
be required to at least stand quietly and with respect, even if their
own beliefs do not allow them to actively participate in a Religio
Romana rite.

Vado:
> 4. The right to participate in all public forums and
discussions, and the right to reasonably expect such forums to be
supported by the State. Such communications, regardless of their
content, may not be restricted by the State, except where they
represent an imminent and clear danger to the Republic. Such
officially sponsored forums may be expected to be reasonably
> moderated in the interests of maintaining order and civility;

> (You have the right to free public speech unless 'The State' thinks
> otherwise);

Cassius:
It seems to me that the above statement is not an accurate
explanation of the paragraph above. The right of Citizens to post
dissenting political views, etc. is clearly addressed here. I agree
that the specific rules of what is allowable and what is not should
be explained in greater detail, but this wasn't a bad beginning.
Surely its important for Nova Roma to retain some authority over
it's lines of communication. Free speech does not include such things
as posting comuter viruses to the list, threatening others, or
constantly using foul language, and that was the idea behind this
section of the Constitution.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus



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Subject:	[novaroma] Eat Up Your Sacrifice!
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
Date:	Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:02:14 -0500

Salvete, Quirites

I wrote:
> Note, however, that in Roman blood sacrifice only food animals are
offered.

Cincinnatus replied:
> Lucius Equitius: See Graecus' note on this. I don't believe that
>dogs were eaten either.

Referring to this observation by Graecus:
> Well, in fact that is not COMPLETELY right. There were some
exceptions to
> that. The sacrifice of the Robigalia (on April 25) is one of the
exceptions.
> The Flamen Quirinalis sacrificed an ewe and a dog to Robigo. While
the ewe
> was surely eaten, I'm not so sure that the dog was. In this case,
the
> religious symbol of the sacrifice was surely stronger than the
feeding
> purpose.

Respondeo:
I am indebted to Pontifex Graecus for pointing out that the God of Mildew
used to receive a once-yearly sacrifice of a dog. What I find most curious
here is that both Cincinnatus and Graecus are happy to accept that the sheep
was eaten afterward, but that the dog wasn't. Why?

Lucius Equitius: I didn't say that the sheep was eaten too. I would say that neither was eaten in this case. It was Graecus that said the sheep was 'surely eaten'. I could be wrong and I would be grateful for further information.

To me it is evident that the Romans were one of those peoples (like the
Chinese) who would eat virtually anything; and besides, it is traditional in
the Religio Romana for the worshippers to partake of the sacrifice (as it is
not always in the Greek).

Lucius Equitius: Very true, they even ate the fish caught by the Cloaca Maxima.

Now if I thought that the God of Mildew really wanted me to kill a dog once
a year, I'd also assume he'd be offended if I didn't want to share it with
him.

Lucius Equitius: You are of course free to assume whatever you like.

I recall also that the October Horse was another of those Roman sacrifices
of an animal most of us moderns wouldn't readily thinkof as a food animal.
I can imagine your average ancient Roman would reply: "tomacula!"
("sausages!"). My view is, if one is taking a traditionalist approach which
insists on killing animals, one should be consistent and eat them, too. To
my mind, if it serves to discourage a detached attitude to taking life,
that's no bad thing.

Lucius Equitius: When I lived in Italia I was invited to a party where Horse was served and I found it to be very good. I have also eaten Bison (American Buffalo) and while in South America I had monkey. I have hunted and fished (both with a rod and spear) and eaten what I have gotten. I don't in anyway condone the mistreatment of any creature or the abuse/waste of any life

Bene valete

Vado
(who eats most things but has never been able to bring himself to eat either
horse or dog).

Lucius Equitius: I may have been served dog when I was visiting various ports while I was in the Navy. Who can be sure what that was that those street vendors were selling? I only know that I saw local people buy some and walks away eating happily.

I do know that dogs were kept away during many sacrifices. Could be that any carnivore was not eaten cat or dog.

Valete, Lucius Equitius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Subject:	[novaroma] Guaranteed Free Pizza
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
Date:	Sat, 16 Dec 2000 23:00:35 -0500

Salvete, Quirites
I wish everyone a wonderful Saturnalia!

Cincinnatus said that citizens' rights are guaranteed in the Constitution.
The Constitution says that *certain* citizens' rights are guaranteed in the
Constitution. I disagree on both counts. An IOU is not as good as a Treasury
banknote.
Lucius Equitius: Yes you are correct that there is a limited list of 'right'. What bothers me is that there is no corresponding list of responsibilities.
I guess we should just get our free piazza and be happy.

The Constitution does not and cannot 'guarantee' rights. There is no
absolute guarantor of rights anywhere in the world. The nearest thing to
such a thing is a fair legal system, equally accessible to all, which has
power to enforce law.
Lucius Equitius: Yes, yes, "Stop quoting the laws to us for we carry swords". Pompey Magnus

This is what the Constitution says (my glosses added in brackets):

B.The following rights of the citizens shall be guaranteed, but this
enumeration shall not be taken to exclude other rights that citizens may
possess:

1. Complete authority over their own personal and household rites...
(You have the right to believe what you like, unless you are a magistrate)
Lucius Equitius: I agree with Cassius' post. We should at least expect magistrates to respect the Religio Romana since it is
one of the main reasons for the institution of this fair Republic.

4. The right to participate in all public forums and discussions, and the
right to reasonably expect such forums to be supported by the State. Such
communications, regardless of their content, may not be restricted by the
State, except where they represent an imminent and clear danger to the
Republic. Such officially sponsored forums may be expected to be reasonably
moderated in the interests of maintaining order and civility;

(You have the right to free public speech unless 'The State' thinks
otherwise);
Lucius Equitius: Once again this is the same basic condition that are placed on "free speech" in any civilized country.

5. The right of provocatio; to appeal a decision of a magistrate that has a
direct negative impact upon that citizen to the comitia populi tributa;

(You can appeal to the people against a magisterial decision made against
you);

Now Cincinnatus asks if there are things specifically to be added. I'll say
there are. In the above, there is no right to equality before the law, no
right of trial,
Lucius Equitius: See #5 above. and also
no right against cruel and unusual punishment,
Lucius Equitius: Yes, I suppose we don't have any way to protect guilty from being crucified (but then that wasn't unusual), or the
traditional punishment for patricide.
no redress for wrongful prosecution.
Lucius Equitius: Again see above #5 plus
There is no clear indication as to who decides an
individual is subversive or inimical enough to be silenced, nor on what
grounds an individual can be deprived of citizenship, nor is there any
clarification as to what help you can expect from 'The State' in any dispute
(including those arising from the manifold ambiguities of the Constitution).
Lucius Equitius: There are 'ambiguites' in many documents, otherwise there would be no lawyers. Hey, maybe I'm
on to something here ;-)

So, yes, Cincinnate: it needs to be rather more specific, in two ways: 1)
what a given right means in practical terms, and 2) how this right is to be
exercised and protected. As it stands, anyone could drive a chariot through
almost any part of the Constitution.
Lucius Equitius: What needs to be more specific?

But as I said before, without clearly written laws that say what they mean,
and a judicial process to enforce them, any set of vague entitlements is of
no practical value to anyone. If anyone disagrees, try this when you're
hungry: 'Every Citizen of Nova Roma Has A Right To Want Free Pizza, But Is
Under Concomitant Obligation To Realise That There Is No Such Thing As A
Free Pizza'.

You get my drift, Cincinnate?

Valete,
Vado.

Lucius Equitius: Yes, do you get mine? If you want to propose laws you are welcome to do so. I'm sure there will be some
good debates. I look forward to seeing any proposals.
Bene Valete, Lucius Equitius
PS I have been under the weather so please forgive me if my post is somewhat unclear but I thought I should respond.
We disagree, but that's OK, I'm open to constructive suggestions. If we all agreed it wouldn't be so much fun! :-)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Eat Up Your Sacrifice!
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:36:35 -0200

Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:
>
> Salvete;
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Nick Ford [mailto:gens_moravia@--------]
> > Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 7:22 PM
> >
> > I recall also that the October Horse was another of those Roman sacrifices
> > of an animal most of us moderns wouldn't readily thinkof as a food animal.
> > I can imagine your average ancient Roman would reply: "tomacula!"
> > ("sausages!"). My view is, if one is taking a traditionalist approach
> which
> > insists on killing animals, one should be consistent and eat them, too. To
> > my mind, if it serves to discourage a detached attitude to taking life,
> > that's no bad thing.
>
> If I may say, as I understand it the eating of both horses and dogs is quite
> current in Korean and Vietnamese cuisine (and I would imagine Chinese as
> well, but I am woefully under-informed about east Asian cooking; goulash,
> matzo ball soup or chicken francese I can make, but I can't even attempt an
> egg roll without tragedy resulting).
>
> I am also told by someone who grew up in Sicily that horse is indeed a
> common item on the menu there even today in the more rural areas; I know
> that there are ranches in Texas that provide horsemeat for human
> consumption. I'm also told that many Carribbean markets carry horse, which
> tells me it's at least not uncommon in the Carribbean. (As horsemeat was
> central to a particular ritual in Norse heathenry, it's an issue that's come
> up in certain circles.)

In all Europe is horse a common dish, you find it in any supermarket, it
s just another red meat beside mutton and beef.

Dog, I never saw on the market, but it was eaten without dissgust during
WWII
(dog and cat), disgust and horrified mention come only when people begin
to eat rats.
(In Europe), heredown there are various sorts of big rodents (Capivara)
which are a piece of choice.

M' Villius Limitanus

>
> So it's not so much of a "modern" thing, so much as a cultural thing. (And
> even some parts of western Europe don't find it that objectionable...)
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Eat Up Your Sacrifice!
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Sun, 17 Dec 2000 04:46:16 -0800 (PST)

--- Michel Loos <loos@--------> wrote:
> In all Europe is horse a common dish, you find it in
> any supermarket, it
> s just another red meat beside mutton and beef.

True, and I have eaten it in France. (Didn't like it
either.)

> Dog, I never saw on the market, but it was eaten
> without dissgust during
> WWII
> (dog and cat), disgust and horrified mention come
> only when people begin
> to eat rats.

This reminds of a recipe I saw for "Vicksburg Rabbit
Stew" (from the siege of Vickburg, Mississippi, during
the America South's War of Independence (1861-1865)):


1. Step one, catch a cat....

Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus

=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." --Jean Rostand

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Subject:	[novaroma] Io Saturnalia!
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:52:00 -0000

May all of Nova Roma be blessed with merriment, protected from harm and
granted prosperity!

P. Cassia



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Subject:	[novaroma] Saturnalia
From:	"Daniel Place" <Danat2000@-------->
Date:	Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:43:27 -0000

Salve,

May I also wish all citizens of NR a happy and joyous Saturnalia.

Vale,

Marcus Arcadius Pius
Pontiff


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Subject:	[novaroma] and a rumor
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:09:53 EST

Salvete,

Just thought I would share a rumor that a much respected former citizen
may return to Nova Roma and undertake to publish the Eagle. I'll be
looking forward to that.

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
(rumors being beneath the dignity of a Tribune of the Plebs ;-) )


certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


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Subject:	[novaroma] Senate news
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:09:52 EST

Salvete omnes!

A December Senate session is in the making. So far, proposed items for
debate include presentation of a budget, which is already past due, term
limits on magistrates, and an amendment to the Constitution in the area
of the tribunes' power of intercessio.

If you have opinions on these or other items of importance to you that
you want heard, the address is:

<senate@-------->

Valete,

Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
Tribunus Plebis


sic friatur crustum dulce.

(Thus the cookie crumbles.)


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Subject:	[novaroma] Saturnalia Wishes
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sun, 17 Dec 2000 17:24:33 -0000

Salvete Civites Nova Roma:

I wish each of you a Happy Saturnalia. Have a wonderful day, with whatever
plans you have made to celebrate :)

I wish you all well :)

Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
_________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: Re: [novaroma] Senate news
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:46:00 EST

Salvete Draco et alia

Thank you for reminding me - I had a gnawing feeling I had left something
out. The first thing that came up as an item for the agenda *was* to
debate exemptions for the three underage candidates for office. It had
slipped my mind when I was composing that notice. A year serving as
Tribune of the Plebs may have an aging effect. ;-)

Valete,

Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
Tribunus Plebis


nullae satisfactionis potiri non possum.

(I can't get no satisfaction.)


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Subject:	[novaroma] list of election results
From:	"Aurelius Tiberius" <kminer_rsg@-------->
Date:	Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:31:54 -0500

did I miss a post or has this not been posted yet

ATR
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Subject:	[novaroma] list of election results
From:	"Aurelius Tiberius" <kminer_rsg@-------->
Date:	Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:31:55 -0500

did I miss a post or has this not been posted yet

ATR
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Senate news
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:32:08 EST

Salve Ericius,

And I do believe you're right. I think the attention was originally
focused on the post of Rogator and I, for one, lost sight of the fact
that there are other age limits for other offices.

So how do we know how old a candidate is? Do the Censores have that
information in their database(s)? Are we back to asking prospective
citizens to send in proof of identity and age? Or does that become
necessary only if they stand for office?

I think it certainly does matter a diddly-damn because that's the way the
law is written. If we're not going to follow the law, that can only be
after we have altered or repealed it. To put it another way for those who
think we're playing at a game here: those are the rules we agreed to play
by.

Either way, we can't just ignore the law or we might as well just go do
whatever we want to do and forget the Republic (like a certain
"superpower" seems to be doing lately).

This sounds to me like a responsibility for the Censores. Anyone not
qualified for an office for which they ran cannot take office without a
lawful exemption, and any such who doesn't request such an exemption in
time for the Senate this month, should be droppped from the list of
candidates no matter how many votes they may have gotten. That's my take
on it.

Also, maybe our campaign season ought to start with a little more than
"Everybody who wants to run jump up and announce it now." Maybe it would
be good to have an official announcement of the offices to be filled,
with the responsibilities and requirements for each office announced as
well.

I think this election season sort of sneaked up on us.

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

On 12/17/00 12:12 PM Razenna (razenna@--------) wrote:

>Salve, Obstinatus!
>
>Three? I do not believe we got responses from all the candidates who are
>below the
>ages required for the respective offices.
>
>The Lex Iunia de Magistratum Aetate stipulates thus
>The minimum ages required are:
> 27 for censor or consul
> 25 for praetor or tribunus plebis
> 21 for quaestor, aedile, or any of the Vigintisexviri
>
>Since these ages are not the same it is possible that people are confused
>as to their
>status as being "underage". My request for candidates to state their age
>became a
>cutsie event (which I half expected) and I stopped tracking it. However I
>noticed
>that none of them said their age and the required age for the office they
>were
>standing for. Some did not respond at all. How are we to know who is
>underage? I
>know of one who has not spoken out much at all since his putting forward
>his name.
>What do we do is someone "slips through"?
>
>I do not know. I seriously wonder if it matters a diddily-damn anymore.
>I look
>forward to your response.
>
>C. Aelius Ericius.
>


certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


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Subject:	[novaroma] more Senate news
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:33:18 EST

Salvete

Also, revision of the century point system has been raised as an item for
discussion.

For the rest, I think I'll wait until the initial agenda is formally
announced, rather than report each suggestion here when it's made.

BTW, I have suggested that future Tribunes be enrolled in the Senate like
other magistrates, and that the beginnings of a formal Cursus Honorum be
agreed upon in order to ensure that candidates for the most important
offices (Censor, Consul) are people who have demonstrated their ability,
their dedication, and their character, in lesser positions of
responsibility.

Valete,

Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
Tribunus Plebis

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


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Subject:	[novaroma] Happy Saturnalia!
From:	"Oppius Flaccus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 17 Dec 2000 11:38:05 -0800

Salvete

Best wishes to all Nova Romans in this
festive season!

Valete,
-Oppius Flaccus Severus (and family)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Subject:	[novaroma] Best Wishes!
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:28:56 +0100

Salvete

Best wishes to all Nova Romans and with a special consideration for teh
tired canddates in the elections in this
festive season!
Ave et salve

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] list of election results
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 17 Dec 2000 18:38:59 -0500

Salvete;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Aurelius Tiberius [mailto:kminer_rsg@--------]
> Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 2:32 PM
>
> did I miss a post or has this not been posted yet

An excellent question. It has not yet been posted, even though the deadline
passed around two and a half hours ago by my count (24 hours for the
Rogatores to tally the vote, plus 24 hours for the magistrates to announce
the results)...

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus



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