| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] list of election results |
| From: |
Michel Loos <loos@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 17 Dec 2000 22:20:07 -0200 |
|
Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:
>
> Salvete;
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Aurelius Tiberius [mailto:kminer_rsg@--------]
> > Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 2:32 PM
> >
> > did I miss a post or has this not been posted yet
>
> An excellent question. It has not yet been posted, even though the deadline
> passed around two and a half hours ago by my count (24 hours for the
> Rogatores to tally the vote, plus 24 hours for the magistrates to announce
> the results)...
>
Is this fue to the badexample given by a certain macro-nation ?
Are they recounting ?
M' Villius Limitanus
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus
>
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] list of election results |
| From: |
LSergAust@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 17 Dec 2000 19:45:47 EST |
|
On 12/17/00 6:20 PM Michel Loos (loos@--------) wrote:
>Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:
>>
>> Salvete;
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Aurelius Tiberius [mailto:kminer_rsg@--------]
>> > Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 2:32 PM
>> >
>> > did I miss a post or has this not been posted yet
>>
>> An excellent question. It has not yet been posted, even though the deadline
>> passed around two and a half hours ago by my count (24 hours for the
>> Rogatores to tally the vote, plus 24 hours for the magistrates to announce
>> the results)...
>>
>
>Is this fue to the badexample given by a certain macro-nation ?
>Are they recounting ?
>
>M' Villius Limitanus
>
Oh dear! And us without a Supreme Court to stop them!
L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
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| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] list of election results |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 17 Dec 2000 22:25:54 -0500 |
|
Salvete;
Indeed you're correct, Fortunatus! Thanks. It does get hard to keep up with
the amendments; perhaps in the Tabularium we could note "this law has been
amended by the 'lex such-and-such'" with a link thereto.
Valete;
Flavius Vedius Germanicus
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fortunatus [mailto:labienus@--------]
> Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 10:27 PM
> To: Flavius Vedius Germanicus
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] list of election results
>
>
> Salvete
>
> > > did I miss a post or has this not been posted yet
> >
> > An excellent question. It has not yet been posted, even though the
> > deadline passed around two and a half hours ago by my count (24 hours
> > for the Rogatores to tally the vote, plus 24 hours for the magistrates
> > to announce the results)...
>
> Actually, the law was amended. The rogatores now have 48 hours in which
> to count the vote and reconcile any differences between them. And, the
> magistrates have 24 hours in which to report the rogatores' results.
> Therefore, we will, most likely, all have to wait until tomorrow.
>
> Valete
> T Labienus Fortunatus
>
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] list of election results |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 17 Dec 2000 18:39:28 -0800 |
|
Also, maybe a one line discription of Each law too might help?
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:
> Salvete;
>
> Indeed you're correct, Fortunatus! Thanks. It does get hard to keep up with
> the amendments; perhaps in the Tabularium we could note "this law has been
> amended by the 'lex such-and-such'" with a link thereto.
>
> Valete;
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Fortunatus [mailto:labienus@--------]
> > Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 10:27 PM
> > To: Flavius Vedius Germanicus
> > Subject: Re: [novaroma] list of election results
> >
> >
> > Salvete
> >
> > > > did I miss a post or has this not been posted yet
> > >
> > > An excellent question. It has not yet been posted, even though the
> > > deadline passed around two and a half hours ago by my count (24 hours
> > > for the Rogatores to tally the vote, plus 24 hours for the magistrates
> > > to announce the results)...
> >
> > Actually, the law was amended. The rogatores now have 48 hours in which
> > to count the vote and reconcile any differences between them. And, the
> > magistrates have 24 hours in which to report the rogatores' results.
> > Therefore, we will, most likely, all have to wait until tomorrow.
> >
> > Valete
> > T Labienus Fortunatus
> >
>
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] list of election results |
| From: |
Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 17 Dec 2000 20:57:39 -0800 (PST) |
|
--- Michel Loos <loos@--------> wrote:
> Is this due to the badexample given by a certain
> macro-nation ?
> Are they recounting ?
My floor is covered with dimpled chads. Thankfully
none of them are pregnant.
Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus
Rogator
=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839
"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." --Jean Rostand
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Saturnalia |
| From: |
"Daniel" <Danat2000@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:08:07 +1030 |
|
Salve,
May I also wish all citizens of Nova Roma a happy and joyous Saturnalia. May the coming days be full of enjoyment for you all!!
vale
Marcus Arcadius Pius
Pontiff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Seasonal Greetings |
| From: |
Piparskegg UllRsson <catamount_grange@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 18 Dec 2000 00:21:29 -0600 |
|
Salvete Amici Omnes!!!
To my friends who espouse the Religio Roman
- a joyous Saturnalia!
To my fellows betrothed to the Pantheon Septentrionalis
- a Glædsome Yuletide!
To my Christian friends
- a Merry Christmas
To my Jewish friend(s)
- a Happy Hanukah!
To the various and sundry others who make up the beloved variety of the
New City - a wonderful Wintertide!
And to our Cives south of the Equator, I hope the upcoming summer finds
you well and in good humor!
May That Which each of you Hold Holy, Bless Thee and Thine with Health,
Wealth and Happiness!
Onward to building Nova Rome!
--
===========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis, Benedicte Omnes!
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Coves, Paterfamilias Gens Ulleria
Quæstor, Dominus Sodalis
My homestead
http://www.geocities.com/piparskegg/index.html
Nova Roma website
http://www.novaroma.org/main.html
Sodalis pro Coqueror et Coquus
http://www.egroups.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Deliberate Verbal Conflict |
| From: |
"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:25:02 +0100 |
|
M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.
I was rather dismayed by the post of junior Consul Audens below, in
which he seems to downplay the importance of human rights, and seems
to suggest that anyone could become tired of their discussion.
I can hardly imagine any more heartening topic: for if we have an
abundance of human rights, then it is a delight to hear them praised
and recited, and if any are lacking in their realisation among us,
then nothing could be more urgent and inspiring than calls and
arguments to change this situation.
It is mercifully true that as a young state we do not have many
examples of human-rights violations, but in the past year we have
seen an *extremely* bad case, and even if that was only one citizen
abused and disrespected, the amount of flagrant abuse of state power
was enough for several! That must not go uncorrected and must not
happen again.
Consul Audens seems to think that there is some right that is
resident in a majority which could justify its suppressing the
minority or an individual of the community. I repeat the felicitous
words of M. Maricius Rex, Candidatus Censorius, to Censor Sulla:
"You obviously have no idea what a human right is. It is a right you
have not because you are American, Austrian or Nova Roman...it is a
right you have because you are a human being and it can not be denied
ANYWHERE by ANY state."
Neither a monarch nor a 99.9% vote of the populace has the slighest
moral justification of infringing the rights of one human being. The
whole question is not one that is decided by voting. [And I note, en
passant, that this concept of Natural Rights based on Natural Law has
deep Roman (Stoic) roots, of which the modern concepts of simply the
contemporary flowering.]
No human authority has a *right* to perpetuate an injustice and to
simply consider the matter settled. That is a notion incredibly
arrogant. And as long as there is an injustice uncorrected, there is
unfinished business before the People and the State, and that will
require discussion, protest, exhortation, and debate.
This is not of the character of an individual's not getting his way
and being tiresome as a result. It is a question of a long-term moral
campaign such as that waged by many organisations over decades or
longer, e.g. the Anti-Slavery Society or the Society for the
Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA).
Quite without consideration to whether I am elected to the
Praetorship, I shall be engaging with others to work for the
fleshing-out of the civil rights already granted in skeleton form in
the Constitution, and adoption of any hitherto neglected. There is
widespread support for this in Nova Roma today, and I believe that
the first year of the new Common Millennium will be the Year of
Rights for Nova Roma.
Let us all work for that together and with more serious minds, and
not suppose that it will go away. Having the security of sacrosanct
rights is the only way our disparate citizens can work together
harmoniously in the long run.
Valete!
Salvete, Friends, Nova Romans and Countrymen;
I too am somewhat confused by the continuous outcry regarding Civil
Rights. In my view I see no violation of Civil Rights here in NR,
but I do hear a continuous diatribe about such. The constant
hammering on one idea which was not granted to an individual(s) which
now continues to disrupt everything that is being done, gets very
tiringand frustrating for all of Nova Roma, not just for the
interested few. As has been said here many times before, each of us
has our view of NR, and each of us has our major and minor interests,
and each of us has a certain amount of time to devote to NR away from
the other aspects of our lives. How much longer are we to be
sentenced to this continual wrangling with words already many times
said???
This incessant harping on a single aspect gets on everyone's nerves.
The Senate has made a decision, because the Comitia was not
available. If that was erroneus or wrong in your view, then do
something about it, besides hammer at it with words, which simply
makes everyone more uncomfortable and takes away the enjoyment of why
we are here. My Consular Colleague has indicated (no doubt out of
extreme frustration) that perhaps those who do not agree should go
somewhere else. I am not sure that I would go that far, but on the
other hand I did not join NR to listen to constant complaints from
those who did not get thier way.
There have been several items brought before the Senate in which I
did not get my way as well, but I seriously doubt that any Civ, (not
reviewing past voting records) can determine which items these are.
In short, I believe that when the Senate makes a decision, then that
ends that particular activity, and if I disagree, then it is time to
work on a solution to put before the August Fathers to change the
situation or accept the decision and move on. My continual harping
and crying about the past activities will not help me at all in this
venue, and it definately takes away the enjoyment of the sharing of
information that I came here to enjoy.
By continuing this constant complaint, you disrupt the enjoyment of
others, you decend into insults and derrogatory statements, and you
set up the future activities of the next group of Magistrates, to be
accomplished in an arena of anger, frustration and hurt feelings. Do
you really suppose that the lie you throw into another's teeth today,
can be recinded by a written apology, no matter how sincere tomorrow?
Do you really suppose that a sarcastic dig referring to parentage,
intelligence level, or commion sense ability delivered on the Main
List in the early days of an election can be rectified by a "coming
together" after the election. If you do think those above highly
unlikely attributes to be possible, then I wish you the best of your
visions for in my forty-five years of dealing with people on an every
day basis. I have definately found such NOT to be the case!!!!!! No,
my friends, it doesn't work that way!!!!
I ask you all, to consider your speech and actions. Consider those
whose enjoyment you disrupt. Consider those whose feelings you hurt,
and consider those whose characters you damage, with your incessant
words, words and more words hammering on the same topic with little
hope of success. If your interest is Civil Rights, form a Sodalitas
to that subject, recruit your followers, consider proposals to place
before the Senate, support Candidates for that August Body, make your
ideas felt through work and not words. Since there are no
Impeachment Activities announced on the List at this time I must
assume that you do not feel yourselves bound by such outrage as to
pursue that effort. Just enough to destroy the enjoyment of the
Majority. Please, leave us, who are not infatuated with your needs,
to enjoy NR in other areas, without your continued interruption,
interrpretations, and lengthy pontification on a subject already
beaten to death.
Valete, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Deliberate Verbal Conflict |
| From: |
"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:28:12 +0100 |
|
M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.
I was rather dismayed by the post of junior Consul Audens below, in
which he seems to downplay the importance of human rights, and seems
to suggest that anyone could become tired of their discussion.
I can hardly imagine any more heartening topic: for if we have an
abundance of human rights, then it is a delight to hear them praised
and recited, and if any are lacking in their realisation among us,
then nothing could be more urgent and inspiring than calls and
arguments to change this situation.
It is mercifully true that as a young state we do not have many
examples of human-rights violations, but in the past year we have
seen an *extremely* bad case, and even if that was only one citizen
abused and disrespected, the amount of flagrant abuse of state power
was enough for several! That must not go uncorrected and must not
happen again.
Consul Audens seems to think that there is some right that is
resident in a majority which could justify its suppressing the
minority or an individual of the community. I repeat the felicitous
words of M. Maricius Rex, Candidatus Censorius, to Censor Sulla:
"You obviously have no idea what a human right is. It is a right you
have not because you are American, Austrian or Nova Roman...it is a
right you have because you are a human being and it can not be denied
ANYWHERE by ANY state."
Neither a monarch nor a 99.9% vote of the populace has the slighest
moral justification of infringing the rights of one human being. The
whole question is not one that is decided by voting. [And I note, en
passant, that this concept of Natural Rights based on Natural Law has
deep Roman (Stoic) roots, of which the modern concepts of simply the
contemporary flowering.]
No human authority has a *right* to perpetuate an injustice and to
simply consider the matter settled. That is a notion incredibly
arrogant. And as long as there is an injustice uncorrected, there is
unfinished business before the People and the State, and that will
require discussion, protest, exhortation, and debate.
This is not of the character of an individual's not getting his way
and being tiresome as a result. It is a question of a long-term moral
campaign such as that waged by many organisations over decades or
longer, e.g. the Anti-Slavery Society or the Society for the
Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA).
Quite without consideration to whether I am elected to the
Praetorship, I shall be engaging with others to work for the
fleshing-out of the civil rights already granted in skeleton form in
the Constitution, and adoption of any hitherto neglected. There is
widespread support for this in Nova Roma today, and I believe that
the first year of the new Common Millennium will be the Year of
Rights for Nova Roma.
Let us all work for that together and with more serious minds, and
not suppose that it will go away. Having the security of sacrosanct
rights is the only way our disparate citizens can work together
harmoniously in the long run.
Valete!
Salvete, Friends, Nova Romans and Countrymen;
I too am somewhat confused by the continuous outcry regarding Civil
Rights. In my view I see no violation of Civil Rights here in NR,
but I do hear a continuous diatribe about such. The constant
hammering on one idea which was not granted to an individual(s) which
now continues to disrupt everything that is being done, gets very
tiringand frustrating for all of Nova Roma, not just for the
interested few. As has been said here many times before, each of us
has our view of NR, and each of us has our major and minor interests,
and each of us has a certain amount of time to devote to NR away from
the other aspects of our lives. How much longer are we to be
sentenced to this continual wrangling with words already many times
said???
This incessant harping on a single aspect gets on everyone's nerves.
The Senate has made a decision, because the Comitia was not
available. If that was erroneus or wrong in your view, then do
something about it, besides hammer at it with words, which simply
makes everyone more uncomfortable and takes away the enjoyment of why
we are here. My Consular Colleague has indicated (no doubt out of
extreme frustration) that perhaps those who do not agree should go
somewhere else. I am not sure that I would go that far, but on the
other hand I did not join NR to listen to constant complaints from
those who did not get thier way.
There have been several items brought before the Senate in which I
did not get my way as well, but I seriously doubt that any Civ, (not
reviewing past voting records) can determine which items these are.
In short, I believe that when the Senate makes a decision, then that
ends that particular activity, and if I disagree, then it is time to
work on a solution to put before the August Fathers to change the
situation or accept the decision and move on. My continual harping
and crying about the past activities will not help me at all in this
venue, and it definately takes away the enjoyment of the sharing of
information that I came here to enjoy.
By continuing this constant complaint, you disrupt the enjoyment of
others, you decend into insults and derrogatory statements, and you
set up the future activities of the next group of Magistrates, to be
accomplished in an arena of anger, frustration and hurt feelings. Do
you really suppose that the lie you throw into another's teeth today,
can be recinded by a written apology, no matter how sincere tomorrow?
Do you really suppose that a sarcastic dig referring to parentage,
intelligence level, or commion sense ability delivered on the Main
List in the early days of an election can be rectified by a "coming
together" after the election. If you do think those above highly
unlikely attributes to be possible, then I wish you the best of your
visions for in my forty-five years of dealing with people on an every
day basis. I have definately found such NOT to be the case!!!!!! No,
my friends, it doesn't work that way!!!!
I ask you all, to consider your speech and actions. Consider those
whose enjoyment you disrupt. Consider those whose feelings you hurt,
and consider those whose characters you damage, with your incessant
words, words and more words hammering on the same topic with little
hope of success. If your interest is Civil Rights, form a Sodalitas
to that subject, recruit your followers, consider proposals to place
before the Senate, support Candidates for that August Body, make your
ideas felt through work and not words. Since there are no
Impeachment Activities announced on the List at this time I must
assume that you do not feel yourselves bound by such outrage as to
pursue that effort. Just enough to destroy the enjoyment of the
Majority. Please, leave us, who are not infatuated with your needs,
to enjoy NR in other areas, without your continued interruption,
interrpretations, and lengthy pontification on a subject already
beaten to death.
Valete, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Io Saturnalia! |
| From: |
sfp55@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 18 Dec 2000 04:45:33 EST |
|
Salvete!
Nova Roma be protected from famine, given prosperity and we have made it
through another year. Saturn indeed protect us from the blight.
Valete!
Q. Fabius Maximus
The Senior Consul
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|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Eat Up Your Sacrifice! |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:15:51 -0800 |
|
Salve Vado
No way on this, amice Vado. The dog was considered a polluted animal with
connections with the underworld. To eat a dog would be the same as
performing a "devotio".
Vale
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Ford [mailto:gens_moravia@--------]
Sent: sabado, 16 de Dezembro de 2000 16:22
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Eat Up Your Sacrifice!
Quiritibus salutem
I wrote:
> Note, however, that in Roman blood sacrifice only food animals are
offered.
Cincinnatus replied:
> Lucius Equitius: See Graecus' note on this. I don't believe that
>dogs were eaten either.
Referring to this observation by Graecus:
.
> Well, in fact that is not COMPLETELY right. There were some
exceptions to
> that. The sacrifice of the Robigalia (on April 25) is one of the
exceptions.
> The Flamen Quirinalis sacrificed an ewe and a dog to Robigo. While
the ewe
> was surely eaten, I'm not so sure that the dog was. In this case,
the
> religious symbol of the sacrifice was surely stronger than the
feeding
> purpose.
Respondeo:
I am indebted to Pontifex Graecus for pointing out that the God of Mildew
used to receive a once-yearly sacrifice of a dog. What I find most curious
here is that both Cincinnatus and Graecus are happy to accept that the sheep
was eaten afterward, but that the dog wasn't. Why?
To me it is evident that the Romans were one of those peoples (like the
Chinese) who would eat virtually anything; and besides, it is traditional in
the Religio Romana for the worshippers to partake of the sacrifice (as it is
not always in the Greek).
Now if I thought that the God of Mildew really wanted me to kill a dog once
a year, I'd also assume he'd be offended if I didn't want to share it with
him.
I recall also that the October Horse was another of those Roman sacrifices
of an animal most of us moderns wouldn't readily thinkof as a food animal.
I can imagine your average ancient Roman would reply: "tomacula!"
("sausages!"). My view is, if one is taking a traditionalist approach which
insists on killing animals, one should be consistent and eat them, too. To
my mind, if it serves to discourage a detached attitude to taking life,
that's no bad thing.
Bene valete
Vado
(who eats most things but has never been able to bring himself to eat either
horse or dog).
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Election results |
| From: |
gmvick32@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:30:37 -0000 |
|
Given the concerns expressed on the list, this is a note from the
office of the Rogators that the election results have been forwarded
to the consuls.
Any delay in getting the election results turned in is entirely mine.
My colleagues and I had a vew minor points to resolve and I fell
behind in confirming the resolution.
I sent all my chads to Dalmaticus.
Livia Cornelia Aurelia
Rogator Suffecti
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Austroccidentalis Saturnalia Celebration! |
| From: |
gmvick32@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 18 Dec 2000 07:54:58 -0700 |
|
Salvete, Omnes!!
This is to wish everyone a belated Io! Saturnalia!!, and
best wishes for other holidays at this time of
year....Hannukah, Christmas, Kwaanza, etc....that you may
choose to celebrate.
The Colorado civies of the Provincia America
Austroccidentalis ushered in Saturnalia yesterday with a
Roman feast at my home. A good time was had by all,
everybody participated in the cooking, and we all left
agreeing that Roman food was something to eat more often....
On the menu:
Gustum:
Apicius 38 - Mixed greens with Cheese Sauce
Appendix Vergiliana, Moretum - Chees Round with Herbs
Livia's Italian grandmother's Green Olives, close to Cato
119
Bread
Honey Mead
Mensa Prima
Apicius 268 - Pork roasted with salt and honey
Apicius 122 - Fried Carrots
White asparagus fixed according to Apicius 122
Water
Mensa Secunda
Cato 84 - Savillum, the Roman cheesecake
Assorted Fruit stewed in wine, cardamom, and anise
Water
The Colorado cives will be meeting again in February.
Livia Cornelia Aurelia
Propraetrix, America Austroccidentalis
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Deliberate Verbal Conflict |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:21:28 -0600 (CST) |
|
Salvete Marce Apolloni et Quirites,
> and if any are lacking in their realisation among us,
> then nothing could be more urgent and inspiring than calls and
> arguments to change this situation.
Is it? When the same tired arguments are repeatedly and incessantly
recited, I think most people would find it tiresome and annoying
rather than inspiring.
> It is mercifully true that as a young state we do not have many
> examples of human-rights violations, but in the past year we have
> seen an *extremely* bad case,
An *extremely* bad case? Was someone murdered, or tortured, or
imprisoned, or raped? You do an insult to the victims of those crimes
against human rights by applying that label to such trivial events
as we have had here.
> Neither a monarch nor a 99.9% vote of the populace has the slighest
> moral justification of infringing the rights of one human being. The
> whole question is not one that is decided by voting.
Instead, you want *your* definition of human rights to take precedence
over everyone elses.
> This is not of the character of an individual's not getting his way
> and being tiresome as a result. It is a question of a long-term moral
> campaign such as that waged by many organisations over decades or
> longer, e.g. the Anti-Slavery Society or the Society for the
> Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA).
Longevity of a campaign does not make that campaign righteous.
In the United States there has been a bitter battle over conflicting
rights for nearly thirty years, regarding the subject of abortion.
One side is directly tied to the feminist movement, the other sees
themselves as inheritors of the anti-slavery movement. Both claim
to be fighting for fundamental human rights, yet their goals are
absolutely contradictory. Who is to decide which "rights" are
to be protected?
[ note: I've tried to use neutral language in describing the
two sides of the incredibly divisive issue above; please let us
get involved in *that* debate, it was merely an example. ]
You seem to think that your own personal definition of human rights
takes precedence over everyone else's, no matter how many people
disagree. That does not automatically make you right.
Valete, Octavius.
--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Deliberate Verbal Conflict |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:27:45 -0600 (CST) |
|
A minor but essential correction to the previous message,
let me add the word "not" where appropriate:
> [ note: I've tried to use neutral language in describing the
> two sides of the incredibly divisive issue above; please let us
> _not_ get involved in *that* debate, it was merely an example. ]
Valete, Octavius.
--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem XVI Kalendas Ianuarias (December 17th) |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:28:27 -0800 |
|
Salvete omnes
Io! Saturnalia!
I'm very sorry for not having been available yesterday, the first day of the
Saturnalia. This time of the year is specially important for me for two
reasons.
The first is that this festival is very ancient and it brings to our memory
the time when Saturnus reigned, the Golden Age, a time of peace and
happiness.
The second reason is related to the first, though it is not traditional: the
"Persians" rever Saturnus as Mithras-Helios... And more I cannot reveal.
The religious note for December 17th follows.
Valete in pace deorum
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex
***************************************************
This is a dies nefastus publicus (NP), a day for special religious
observance in which no legal action can take place.
Today is the aniversary of the dedication ("dies natalis") of the temple of
Saturnus and the first day of the Saturnalia. The Saturnalia restores the
Golden Age of the reign of Saturnus during 7 days (until December 24th). It
is a period of goodwill, devoted to banquets and the exchange of visits and
gifts. A special feature of the festival is the freedom given to slaves, who
during this time have first place at the family table and are served by
their masters.
In front of the temple of Saturnus (Aerarium Saturni), the guardian of the
public treasure, a feast is offered ("convivio dissoluto") where the people
cry "Io! Saturnalia!" (see Macrobius, Saturnalia, 1, 10, 18).
Saturnus is often considered the consort of Ops, the alimentary resource
that the Romans enjoy after the harvest of Summer. In fact, the name of the
God includes "satur" as the root, which means "well-fed" or "replete",
"rich", "saturated". But Saturnus is also the sower, the God of the seed
(and by extension of semen) which will bring the new fruits of the earth
next year.
The month of December is sacred to Vesta.
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Eat Up Your Sacrifice! |
| From: |
Cinnabari <darkelf@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:22:27 -0700 |
|
Salvete:
>
> I do know that dogs were kept away during many sacrifices. Could be that any carnivore was not eaten cat or dog.
>
I was under the impression it was because dogs were considered chthonic creatures, and bad luck at most sacrifices.
Valete,
P. Clodia Cinnabari
--
Never express yourself more clearly than you think. -- Neils Bohr
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Roman era Viking War Camp discoverd |
| From: |
"J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 18 Dec 2000 17:20:41 -0500 |
|
Salvete omnes!
This might be verrrrry interesting to a number of you.... This is off another list
I'm on; will try to find out more details...
Valete,
S. Ambrosia Fulvia
Ivar Fylling wrote:
> This was an interesting article, but no written source is given. In the article I
> read:
>
> "A 2,000-year-old military camp discovered at the southernmost tip of Norway
> probably
> housed marine warriors serving coastal chieftains who ruled the North Sea
> centuries before the
> Viking Age.
> ---
> Military and economic centers like Spangereid were probably chiefdoms with a
> definite military character. They were organized as "retinues," and their desire
> for booty may have sparked domestic Norwegian conflicts. Danish archaeologist
> Jørgen Ilkjær suggests that the military ambitions of these retinues may have
> climaxed in attacks against parts of Denmark."
>
> These are certainly significant and interesting finds. I wonder what kind of
> additional data (other than archaeological) have been used to make inferences or
> assumptions about ethnicity, such as 'Norwegian', 'Danish', and what could
> possibly be called 'domestic Norwegian' in the period 200 - 500? I'd appreciate
> to know the background material that this article is based on.
> Regards
> Ivar J. Fylling
>
> Michelle Ziegler wrote:
>
> > A Warrior Camp: Pre-Viking Chieftains Likely Drove Scandinavian Conflicts
> >
> > http://discoveringarchaeology.com/articles/121200-warrior.shtml
> >
> > A Roman era Norse war camp has been discovered in a position likely to mean
> > that it was used to launch campaigns against Denmark.
> >
> > ____________________________________________________
> > Michelle Ziegler
> >
> > Editor-In-Chief
> > The Heroic Age
> > http://members.aol.com/heroicage1/homepage.html
> >
> > Current Issue: "Anglo-Saxon Attitudes"
> > http://www.mun.ca/mst/heroicage/issues/3/toc.html
> >
> > Early Medieval Resources for Britain, Ireland, and Brittany
> > http://members.aol.com/michellezi/resources-index.html
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Deliberate Verbal Conflict |
| From: |
SyanneRose@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 18 Dec 2000 17:15:11 EST |
|
In a message dated 12/18/00 12:27:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, bvm3@--------
writes:
<<
M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.
I was rather dismayed by the post of junior Consul Audens below, in
which he seems to downplay the importance of human rights, and seems
to suggest that anyone could become tired of their discussion.
Aeternia: Ave, from what I gathered from the junior Consul's post was, he was
confused and well stated his opinion.
I can hardly imagine any more heartening topic: for if we have an
abundance of human rights, then it is a delight to hear them praised
and recited, and if any are lacking in their realisation among us,
then nothing could be more urgent and inspiring than calls and
arguments to change this situation.
Aeternia: That is true, but why the arguments at all? How about constructive
criticism? Or meaningful suggestions?
It is mercifully true that as a young state we do not have many
examples of human-rights violations, but in the past year we have
seen an *extremely* bad case, and even if that was only one citizen
abused and disrespected, the amount of flagrant abuse of state power
was enough for several! That must not go uncorrected and must not
happen again.
Aeternia: You are right Formosanus, but honestly, why do you keep talking
about
it? I think by now the citizens of Nova Roma do understand your view points
on Human
Rights.
Consul Audens seems to think that there is some right that is
resident in a majority which could justify its suppressing the
minority or an individual of the community. I repeat the felicitous
words of M. Maricius Rex, Candidatus Censorius, to Censor Sulla:
"You obviously have no idea what a human right is. It is a right you
have not because you are American, Austrian or Nova Roman...it is a
right you have because you are a human being and it can not be denied
ANYWHERE by ANY state."
Neither a monarch nor a 99.9% vote of the populace has the slighest
moral justification of infringing the rights of one human being. The
whole question is not one that is decided by voting. [And I note, en
passant, that this concept of Natural Rights based on Natural Law has
deep Roman (Stoic) roots, of which the modern concepts of simply the
contemporary flowering.]
No human authority has a *right* to perpetuate an injustice and to
simply consider the matter settled. That is a notion incredibly
arrogant. And as long as there is an injustice uncorrected, there is
unfinished business before the People and the State, and that will
require discussion, protest, exhortation, and debate.
Aeternia: I agree with you, but Formosanus, you seem to talk about this quite
a
bit? Are you also working out a plan as well? You know debating, working out
a
plan at the same time kinda thing? I'm sure the citizens of Nova Roma would
love
to know what you're up to. (Don't take offense to that please)
This is not of the character of an individual's not getting his way
and being tiresome as a result. It is a question of a long-term moral
campaign such as that waged by many organisations over decades or
longer, e.g. the Anti-Slavery Society or the Society for the
Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA).
Aeternia: As a member of the SPCA, and other orgaizations. I know exactly
what you're talking about.
Quite without consideration to whether I am elected to the
Praetorship, I shall be engaging with others to work for the
fleshing-out of the civil rights already granted in skeleton form in
the Constitution, and adoption of any hitherto neglected. There is
widespread support for this in Nova Roma today, and I believe that
the first year of the new Common Millennium will be the Year of
Rights for Nova Roma.
Aeternia:Aha! So that's what your plans are, maybe I should've read the
entire post
instead of each paragraph at a time. Why Formosanus, you'll be a busy citizen
this
year no doubt!
Let us all work for that together and with more serious minds, and
not suppose that it will go away. Having the security of sacrosanct
rights is the only way our disparate citizens can work together
harmoniously in the long run.
Aeternia: I can understand where you are coming from Formosanus, really I do.
And I hope you don't take offense to anything that I have said, just
personally I feel
you should uh try a different approach to your goals, it's just repetiveness
does not work in your favor. It was just a suggestion no one take offense!!!
Valete
Aeternia
Salvete, Friends, Nova Romans and Countrymen;
I too am somewhat confused by the continuous outcry regarding Civil
Rights. In my view I see no violation of Civil Rights here in NR,
but I do hear a continuous diatribe about such. The constant
hammering on one idea which was not granted to an individual(s) which
now continues to disrupt everything that is being done, gets very
tiringand frustrating for all of Nova Roma, not just for the
interested few. As has been said here many times before, each of us
has our view of NR, and each of us has our major and minor interests,
and each of us has a certain amount of time to devote to NR away from
the other aspects of our lives. How much longer are we to be
sentenced to this continual wrangling with words already many times
said???
This incessant harping on a single aspect gets on everyone's nerves.
The Senate has made a decision, because the Comitia was not
available. If that was erroneus or wrong in your view, then do
something about it, besides hammer at it with words, which simply
makes everyone more uncomfortable and takes away the enjoyment of why
we are here. My Consular Colleague has indicated (no doubt out of
extreme frustration) that perhaps those who do not agree should go
somewhere else. I am not sure that I would go that far, but on the
other hand I did not join NR to listen to constant complaints from
those who did not get thier way.
There have been several items brought before the Senate in which I
did not get my way as well, but I seriously doubt that any Civ, (not
reviewing past voting records) can determine which items these are.
In short, I believe that when the Senate makes a decision, then that
ends that particular activity, and if I disagree, then it is time to
work on a solution to put before the August Fathers to change the
situation or accept the decision and move on. My continual harping
and crying about the past activities will not help me at all in this
venue, and it definately takes away the enjoyment of the sharing of
information that I came here to enjoy.
By continuing this constant complaint, you disrupt the enjoyment of
others, you decend into insults and derrogatory statements, and you
set up the future activities of the next group of Magistrates, to be
accomplished in an arena of anger, frustration and hurt feelings. Do
you really suppose that the lie you throw into another's teeth today,
can be recinded by a written apology, no matter how sincere tomorrow?
Do you really suppose that a sarcastic dig referring to parentage,
intelligence level, or commion sense ability delivered on the Main
List in the early days of an election can be rectified by a "coming
together" after the election. If you do think those above highly
unlikely attributes to be possible, then I wish you the best of your
visions for in my forty-five years of dealing with people on an every
day basis. I have definately found such NOT to be the case!!!!!! No,
my friends, it doesn't work that way!!!!
I ask you all, to consider your speech and actions. Consider those
whose enjoyment you disrupt. Consider those whose feelings you hurt,
and consider those whose characters you damage, with your incessant
words, words and more words hammering on the same topic with little
hope of success. If your interest is Civil Rights, form a Sodalitas
to that subject, recruit your followers, consider proposals to place
before the Senate, support Candidates for that August Body, make your
ideas felt through work and not words. Since there are no
Impeachment Activities announced on the List at this time I must
assume that you do not feel yourselves bound by such outrage as to
pursue that effort. Just enough to destroy the enjoyment of the
Majority. Please, leave us, who are not infatuated with your needs,
to enjoy NR in other areas, without your continued interruption,
interrpretations, and lengthy pontification on a subject already
beaten to death.
Valete, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________
>>
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Human Rights/ Natural Rights (Was Deliberate Verbal Conflict) |
| From: |
Mike Macnair <MikeMacnair@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:29:29 -0500 |
|
Salvete!
In this latest round my professional hackles as a teacher of law rose
rather at this set of statements:
M. Marcius Rex, quoted by Formosanus
>"You obviously have no idea what a human right is. It is a right you
>have not because you are American, Austrian or Nova Roman...it is a
>right you have because you are a human being and it can not be denied
>ANYWHERE by ANY state."
and Formosanus
> Neither a monarch nor a 99.9% vote of the populace has the slighest
> moral justification of infringing the rights of one human being. The
> whole question is not one that is decided by voting. [And I note, en
> passant, that this concept of Natural Rights based on Natural Law has
> deep Roman (Stoic) roots, of which the modern concepts of simply the
> contemporary flowering.]
The idea of HUMAN rights, or for that matter entrenched rights in a
Constitution, is that we make a political choice that the values stated as
rights operate as "trumps" to outweigh conflicting policy objectives. This
is a perfectly legitimate choice, though IMO other forms of restraint on
government can be more effective than listed rights. But such rights can
conflict among themselves, e.g. freedom of speech and the right to personal
dignity (and hence freedom from defamation), and modern international legal
instruments stating human rights (Universal Covenant, European Convention,
etc.) characteristically contain limiting clauses saying that the rights
protected are e.g. "subject to such regulations as are necessary in a
democratic society". At the end of the day what is involved is political
choices about what sort of society we want to live in.
The idea of NATURAL rights is that we all have certain rights which would
exist anyhow in the absence of a state, and as such are prior to political
choices. The difficulty (besides conflicts between rights) is that pointed
out by the patriarchalists and more recently by communitarians: we are born
helpless and dependent and stay that way for quite a while, so that as
children we are rather the objects of duties than the subjects of rights.
Moreover, so far as the common acceptance of the existence of rights can be
deduced from human behaviour in the "state of nature", i.e. in the absence
of the state, the rights deducible are four: freedom from physical assault;
the right of the first occupant to property; the sanctity of contracts; and
the right of self-help/ self-defence to protect the first three.
Both concepts do have Roman roots. But the Stoics gave equal if not greater
weight to the idea of natural duties (which, for example, we owe to our
children, and arguably to our descendants more generally). "Justice is a
constant and perpetual will to give to everyone his [or her] due" - Cicero.
Valete,
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister
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