Subject:	Re: [novaroma] New TV Show
From:	SyanneRose@--------
Date:	Sat, 23 Dec 2000 21:19:04 EST

Ave,

Thank you! I will look out for it, I knew about the Mists of Avalon also
coming out in january, but not this, thank you again much appreciated.


Vale,
Aeternia

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Subject:	[novaroma] New TV Show
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 23 Dec 2000 17:15:37 -0800

Ave!

I just saw a commerical on the USA network (Cable TV) that they are
going to do a show on Attila the Hun. It should air sometime in
January. It looks pretty good from the brief commerical I saw. I will
definately be recording it.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix



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Subject:	[novaroma] For The Most Beautiful - A Saturnalia Play
From:	Ursa <ursa@-------->
Date:	Sat, 23 Dec 2000 21:19:04 -0600

Salve, Io Saturnalia!

I am Appia Claudia Labiena Ursa. I am Fortunatus' wife, and you have
never heard from me before because unlike my gentle reasonable husband,
I tend to be a hot-head on lists. No matter how much fun it is, flaming
is deeply counter-productive, so I usually just read Fortunatus's copy
of the list (no, not the privy Senate one, silly), and then I have time
to cool off before I spout out my opinion to poor Fortunatus. All this
abstinence has taken it's toll on me, and to relieve some of the
pressure I've written a little Saturnalia Satire, which I hope you will
all enjoy.

If you find that your, ahem, favorite faction is at first getting the
short end of the fasces, read further. I pride myself on being
evenhandedly vitriolic. If you are upset at being snubbed and left out
either you aren't looking closely enough, or you will simply have to try
harder next year to catch my attention.

Without further ado I present the following Play, dedicated to Saturnus
and of course, Discordia.

*****FOR THE MOST BEAUTIFUL*****

The Scene: the ancient Forum Romanum.
It is late afternoon, thus the opening of the political business day.

Enter: MISELLUS - Incastipictor and Censor - he rides a mule, which is
braying loudly. ANTIPISCINUS - Misellus's business partner and Consul.

ANTIPISCINUS, shouting: "I say, old boy, your mount is braying loudly.
What's wrong with him?"

MISELLUS: "Well, as we rode in here someone called him an ass! He is
a Sensitive Animal, you know. He felt his honor was besmirched. It's
all I could do to restrain him from pummeling the rude brute! Poor
fellow, I wonder, do you think you could let him sit in your chair
awhile?"

ANTIPISCINUS: "My chair?"

MISELLUS: "Ivory, you know. It's the only thing aside from purple that
will soothe him."

ANTIPISCINUS: "Well, all right, we can't have him braying like that the
whole meeting. I know how he feels - I like the purple myself."

(busy themselves with seating arrangements)


Enter the Senators and Magistrates in procession, they all take their
seats to the right or left:

PATER - a dour Senator with his toga pulled over his head and face.

MATER - a Senator who wears an air of bemused annoyance, as if he looked
after small children.

SENEX MONUMENTUM - the junior Consul, an old Senator who leans
distinctly to the right.

ANGUSTUS RECTUM - the other Censor

ASSENTOR and CONCENTUS - brothers

Three Senators in a large bathtub are wheeled in by slaves:
CARNIFEX has a long whip-like tongue sticking out of his mouth. When he
speaks his tongue lashes out at random people. He speaks
unintelligibly, and frequently drinks from a gigantic cup.
PANIFEX is a crusty old fox, muttering to himself and looking cannily
about.
CANDELIFEX is a young fellow with a waxy look and a pair of tweezers in
each hand.


ARDO FERVEO - the young and passionate debator.

UTER UTRIUS - the undecided Senator - whoever talked to him last has his
vote.

VENTOSUS - a man learned in every arena, even some that don't exist.

INGENUUS - the Perfect Senator, a person looked up to by all.

The CHORUS - various sundry worthies. The CHORUS sings all of it's
lines.

The BACK BENCHERS:
The Old Man, The Lady, The Foreigner, The New Guy and
The Lemure of the Back Bench
New Guy: "I don't belong here!"
Old Man: "I keep saying that too, but no one will listen!"
The Lady: ....
The Foreigner: "Bah! We all know why I'm stuck back here! Americans and
their lapdogs!"
The Lemure: "Beware…...."
New Guy: "A Spirit! Beware of what, O Spirit!"
The Lemure: "I am the Lemure of the Back Bench!!!! Beware!"
New Guy: "Beware of what! I don't even belong here!"
The Lemure: "There are places worse than this... Speak and Vote before
it is tooooo late!"
New Guy: "But I was active - behind the scenes!"
The Old Man (patting him on the shoulder): "That's what they all say,
kid."

ANTIPISCINUS begins to bang on the rostrum to call the meeting to
order. "Order, Order"

Half the CHORUS: "You can't order us around! We quit!" Exeunt the
Dissenting Chorus Members. One pokes his head back 'round the door at
the last moment and says "And I'm taking my ball too! Ha! What do you
say to that?"

ARDO FERVEO: "You have no balls, you!!!! Get back here and fight!"

MISELLUS: "Hush, you might get them to come back!"

ASSENTUS: "We don't need their kind."

CONSENTUS: "Fewer of their kind around the better."

ANTIPISCINUS: "Where were we..."

A loud clashing sound is heard approaching, and the doors of the Forum
are flung wide. Great clouds of choking incense billow in, causing the
assembly to cough and sputter.

CHORUS SOLOIST: "Oh, no, is it that time again? What is it today?"
CHORUS: "Is it the Feast or the Festival - is today Tuesday?"
CHORUS SOLOIST: "I'm getting tired of the new state Religo."
CHORUS: "But what can we do, once this sort of thing starts, no-one can
stop it."

Enter the FLAMEN HYPERBOLUS:
He wears a gigantic cloak of deepest purple shot through with random
threads of all colors. His sleeves end in long skewers that he points
to celebrants with. He is elevated above the crowd on a pair of tall
platform sandals, and his head is surmounted by an enormous
broad-brimmed
hat that has bronze cooking implements dangling from the rim. They
create an incredible cacophony. His face, but for his enormous beard,
is totally obscured by a dramatic mask that, horn like, amplifies his
every word.

A cohort of nymphs, satyrs and metaphors support his train and cast
flower petals and stones in all directions.

He begins to parade around the assembly pointing out people at random
and blessing them:

FLAMEN HYPERBOLUS: "Greek!"
"Turncoat!"
"Tyrant!" "Pockmark!"
"Demagog!"
"Cannibal!" "Caterpillar!"
"Bacteria!"
"Nazi!" "Tin Dictator!"
"Colocynths!" "Athenian!"

until everyone has been doubly blessed, and he's been 'round the chamber
at least twice. He then elbows the mule and SENEX MONUMENTUM out of
their chairs and procedes to preside over the debate. "OH, DO GO ON.
DON'T LET LITTLE ME STOP YOU!!!!!"

ANTIPISCINUS: "Alright, where were we...I say, what is that smell???"

The CHORUS: "Something's not right! Something smells fishy!"

Enter the CARP, a large walking catfish of the variety that walks across
highways and into people's houses in Florida.

CARP: "Please sirs, I'd like to petition to change my name."

ANTIPISCINUS: "Oh, Gods! It's a fish! ... How I hate fish!"

CARNIFEX: "BOF COF YUH HUAT SHISP, YUH YISOGANUISHT!"

Various CHORUS members and Senators:"OW" "Yeowch!" "Put that thing
away!"

CARNIFEX: "DHM, UH NISSED HUM"

MISELLUS: "Now then, Antipiscinus, let's see what it wants. What is it
that I, Misellus, Censor of the New Roman Em...er...Republic can do for
you, little fish?"

CARP: "Well, I've always has this feeling, you know, that I was
something on the inside that I'm not on the outside...I'd like to change
my name to reflect that."

MISELLUS: "Something else? Like what, a mackerel?"

CARP: "No, not a fish at all - an ass. I'd like the name Ass."

Collective Gasping ensues, and the mule begins to bray again in great
agitation.

PATER: "What's going on? I can't see!"

MISELLUS to PATER: "She's all yours, sir. I have a Pressing Engagement
elsewhere!"

ANTIPISCINUS to PATER: "It's shocking, sir - a fish who wants to be
called Ass. I dare say the Gods will strike her down at any moment!"

PATER: "A fish pretending to be an ass? We can't have that, people
might not take us seriously!"

ANGUSTUS RECTUM: "This fish has been in my family for years - I assure
you that she is an Ass, internally, that is."

MISELLUS, attempting to calm his mule with a purple handkercheif: "This
is all a Lot of Trouble, just Get Rid of Her!"

CARP, looking pitiful: "I don't want to be any bother."

FLAMEN HYPERBOLUS: "NOW LOOK WHAT YOU'VE DONE! THAT POOR CARP! YOU
CAN'T DENY HER THE BASIC HUMAN RIGHT TO BE CALLED AN ASS! IF GHANDI
WERE TO SEE THIS SCENE! FOR SHAME, SENATORES, FOR SHAME!!!!!! I FOR
ONE WILL NOT STAND IDLE WHILE THIS TRAVESTY OF INJUSTICE ....." et
cetera, et cetera, drowing out even the mule and forcing the rest of the
assembly to shout to be heard over the din.

The CARP hides behind the rostrum, occasionally sticking her head out to
make faces at the mule, sending the mule into fresh paryoxyms just as
MISELLUS has got it calmed down.

MATER, rolling his eyes heavenward: "Why does everything have to be so
complicated with this lot?"

MISELLUS to PATER: "Do Something, sir, she's getting away with all sorts
of Mayhem! It'll be the Ruination of the Nation!"

ANTIPISCINUS to PATER: "Yes, Sir, do something. The very idea of a fish
named Ass is making me queasy! The Gods will be offended if we allow
it, and besides, it's just disgusting! The Ancients would be shocked!"

CARNIFEX: "BI UH CUNSUR HU USH UH PLORNADRATHRUH!"

ANGUSTUS RECTUM: "With all due respect, the Constitution really doesn't
allow us to discriminate between fish and asses - you have to grant her
request."

PATER passes a quickly scribbled note to MISELLUS.

MISELLUS "It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it. I proclaim that
if you want a name that does not match your species all you have to do
is first get a certificate from two psychologists and a zoologist, and
a letter from your congressman, your mother, and the local Game Warden,
and a simple afidavit signed by the Creator God of your choice. There!"

ASSENTUS: "Way to go Sir!"

CONSENTUS: "Hear, hear!"

CANDELIFEX, leaning out of the bathtub: "Hmmmm, let me see that." He
plucks the dialog right out of the air over MISELLUS's head and begins
to go over it with his tweezers: "See here, you've mispelled affidavit,
and your argument here is completely fallacious. Not to mention the
run-on here. What were you thinking?"

CARNIFEX: "HAW, HAW, HAW, SSSTACK UT T HUM CUNDULUTHUX!"

ANGUSTUS RECTUM to CARNIFEX: "Ow, watch it! Wait a minute, where's
Panifex? He was here a moment ago."

CARNIFEX winks and points up to the rafters. There is a flash of red
fur, and suddenly a large bag of turnips falls to the ground, narrowly
missing ANTIPISCINUS.

ANTIPISCINUS: "That sort of thing has been happening to me all day.
Odd sort of coincidence." He bends down to tie his shoe as a pilum
wisks over his head and takes out his chair.

ANGUSTUS RECTUM, gasping: "What is he doing!"

CARNIFEX patting him on the shoulder: "CAHRAKTA ATHATHINATHN!"

ANGUSTUS RECTUM shakes his head then turns to MISELLUS: "So that's it,
you will allow it but make it so difficult that no one will do it?"

CHORUS snapping in time to the music and slowly advancing on the Carp:
"Once you're a fish,
You're a fish all the way,
>From your first briny breath
To your last dying day..."

CARP: "Oh, I give up, I quit." She starts to slink diconsolately away.

PATER, MISELLUS, ANTIPISCINUS: "WHEW! Thank the Gods that's over!"

CARP, jumping onto the rostrum: "PSYCHE! I'm back!" She does a little
dance and pokes her tounge out at the mule.

The room erupts in cacophany and controversy.

ANTIPISCINUS to the crowd: "The Gods will strike us all down if this
FISH is allowed to call itself by the noble name of Ass!"

Most of the Senators and Magistrates get up and begin to argue for their
position heatedly.

CARNIFEX and ARDO FERVEO get into a shouting match that is complicated
by the fact that neither can understand the other. CARNIFEX'S vicious
tounge whips about slashing at various ears and limbs.

PANIFEX can be seen here handing someone an empty pie plate, then
whisking away from the scene of a terrible pie-ing.

CARP "Heeee - Haw, Heeee - Haw.....See! I'm really an Ass!"

MISELLUS gives up on the mule and begins to lament his lot: "Everyone's
against me, I work so hard, I was in labor for 37 hours, and what do I
get? No gratitude. It's a conspiracy! Them against us lone
individualistic right thinkers who never plot or anything. It's unfair,
I tell you, ganging up on a fellow and his friends!"

CANDELIFEX goes around the room helpfully making certain that all the
arguments are grammatically correct.

ANTIPISCINUS sulks off to a corner and addresses the audience: "By the
Gods I hate fish, especially uppity fish. We should never have given
them the vote."

MATER: "I'm going home like a sensible person and having dinner!
Sheesh."

PATER is left sitting in the benches holding his head in his hands:
"Woe, it is the end! How can Nova Roma survive? It will be torn apart
by these hideous controversies! Woe!"

SHADE OF CATO: "Oh, I don't know. It looks like the Roman Senate to
me."

Exeunt Omnes, except for the FLAMEN HYPERBOLUS, who continues to rant as
the stage empties, and even after the audience is long gone.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Re: Announcement: The Tribes are to Assemble-curator differium
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Sun, 24 Dec 2000 04:15:15 +0100

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

I am immensely surprised that we are being asked to vote on diverse
and complicated legislation at this moment when the majority of us
are involved in the macronational holidays around us and not readily
available for the discussions among the People that should properly
preceed a vote on legislation. Indeed we have not not been told where
to find the texts of this legislation, although I know that some of
it exists and is available as edicta already issued as such that are
now to be voted on by the people.

I consider calling a vote on legislation at this time of year and in
addition on such short notice to be dubious practice, despite any
technical legality it may have, and certainly it will lessen the
moral authority of the vote as an expression of the will of the
People..

It may be argued that we have debated some of the legislation
previously, but that was not in the context of an impending vote of
the People, and many new cives have accrued since some of those
discussions months ago.

I shall therefore sum up very briefly my views on two of the bills
up before us. If I have discussed these things before, I hope that no
one will now dispute my right to discuss them again, seeing as these
precise matters are now potential legislation before the people.

1. The proposed Lex Cornelia et Maria de Nominibus Mutandis.
This is the latest version of the (in)famous "Gender Edictum". It
contains much good material on the regulation of standard names for
Nova Romans. Unfortunately there are sections in which sexual
minorities are required to use names opposite in gender to the social
gender with which they normally interact with the world. Although
there are provisions for transsexuals to change the genders of their
names through a laborious and often expensive and time-consuming
local procedure - and local rules differ widely from place to place,
introducing additional inequity - these are primarily for those using
surgery. Those who simply have a social gender different from gross
physical gender are rather left in limbo. Great discretion is also
left to whoever may be the censors at the time, leaving doubt as to
the degree of sympathy applicants might be given, depending on the
personal biases of the censors from year to year.

So, if you are a person who is concerned with the rights of
minorities, or simply are not one wishing to make unnecessary
bureaucratic trouble for your fellow human being and civis, I
strongly advise you to give this one a resounding thumbs down.

2 Lex Cornelia et Maria "Abdicatum" (?).
I am not absolutely sure what this is from the title but it may refer
to an edictum which I call the Bash-Returning-Citizens-in-the-Teeth
Edictum. This provides for differnt amounts of punishments (not
called such) and temporary curtailment of civil rights, etc. for
citizens who wish to return to Nova Roma after giving up their
citizenship. It has been suggested that this will make people think
more before leaving (doubtful, because we have a 9-day waiting period
before a resignation takes effect, and anyone going to change his
mind would usually do so within that period). It has also been
suggested that people will respect their citizenship more if we show
our power to hurt those who want to return.

We do not have a problem with returnees because they almost do not
exist, and I do not see why we have to treat them unwelcomingly if
they realise that Nova Roma is the place for them after all. If you
do not believe in unnecessary punitiveness and vindictiveness, and
would rather welcome back our wandering sons and daughters with a hug
and a smile instead of a smart slap to the cheek, I suggest that you
give this one a ringing NO as well.

Excuse me, if I misidentified the second one. The Latin is wrong as
it stands, and the English version is not obvious to me.

Indeed, the other topics of legislation {Lex Minucia de Rogatoribus
(on Rogators) and the Lex Cornelia de Centuriis (?) (On century
points revision)} are things that I would like to see whole texts of
on the Main List here, together with debate by those against and
those in favour, so that we could all form intelligent opinions about
them. And did I see something mentioned about the tribunician
intercessio? That seems constitutionally important, does it not?

It is really difficult to review so many texts and argue them
adequately in contio in such a short time and at this exact time of
the year. I hope that this will be dealt with speedily so that we
know what we are voting for in advance and have a chance to discuss
it.

To the Christiani among us, I would like to wish a Festum
Nativitatis Christi optimum! And I would hope that in our voting we
might all show the spirit of kindless and love of our fellow man that
is supposed to be dominant at this season. Pax sit nobiscum Novae
Romae iustae et liberae.

Valete!



Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius    
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________


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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: RubiCon & Aediles
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:05:24 -0500

Salvete;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Smith [mailto:JSmithCSA@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2000 4:48 AM
>
> It seems to me that the Aediles ought to be in charge
> of gatherings like this. In ancient days they were in
> charge of managing the roads and waterways and staging
> the games. This seems a close parallel to our
> "RubiCon", if one considers that the Aediles will be
> assisting with housing and travel plans as well as
> arranging the entertainment (the professor or whoever
> we get).

I think this is an outstanding idea, and would welcome one or more of our
good Aediles stepping up and volunteering to take charge of the leg-work. (I
would of course be more than willing to help in any way I could, and perhaps
working in such a close partnership on a specific project would also be a
good precident to set.) After all, in our Constitution, the duties and
privileges of the Aediles do include "To issue those edicta (edicts)
necessary to see to the conduct of public games and other festivals and
gatherings." I think this would certainly come under the latter heading.

> My proposal is that the Curule Aediles be responsible
> for NovaRoma activities, and the Plebian Aediles be
> responsible for coordinating Provincial activities.

This I'm not so sure is such a good idea. It seems to me an artificial and
(at this point, anyway) unnecessary distinction. The various provincial
Governors should handle such provincial gatherings, and I for one wouldn't
like to see the central government stepping on their toes (unless they asked
for such assistance). I'm sure our friends in Britannia (for example) don't
need an Aedile to set up their gatherings for them. Eventually, we might all
hope, there will be enough Nova Roma-wide gatherings, ludii, and other
festivals to keep 'em all busy.

Just to wax prophetic for a minute; I foresee the day when we have perhaps
two big gatherings in the US, one in Europe, and possibly one in Australia
each year. Just imagine when the Aediles run on their qualifications to
organize such gatherings...

> Mind you, this does not mean they are directly
> responsible for doing the work (altho' they could if
> they wanted to), merely for appointing someone to get
> it done, and making sure it happens. (In ancient
> days, they didn't have to drive the chariots or feed
> the lions, just make sure that someone did it.)

Agreed. But then, even now the Aediles can appoint their own Scribae.

> The result, I hope will be an annual gathering,
> supported by a number of provincial gatherings.

Again, agreed most wholeheartedly! I intend to "lead by example" with the
Mediatlantica Provincia, by the way. Some of our cives have already
expressed an interest in holding a Symposium in March, here in New Jersey.
Back in the misty past, we used to have a monthly "Sunday Brunch" meeting
once a month, and I'm considering reinstituting it. I'd also like to have
one or two Provincial events in the coming year; I'm looking for ideas and
volunteers.

Valete;

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Proconsul, Mediatlantica Provincia

http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Eagle
From:	Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
Date:	Sun, 24 Dec 2000 07:16:30 +0100

Vespasiae Polliae Iulianae Lucilla Cinna salutem.

Good to see that someone is willing to take care of this important job -
Thank you Vespasia Pollia!
Count on me for an article once in a while. I guess Patricia Cassia
forwarded some mail to you ... :o)

Ave atque vale

Lucilla Cornelia Cinna
Quaestrix secunda designata
cives NovaRomana provinciam Germaniam inhabitans


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Subject:	[novaroma] Spartacus documentary
From:	"Vespasia Pollia" <cherils@-------->
Date:	Sun, 24 Dec 2000 06:58:43 -0000

The History Channel aired an excellent documentary tonight, The Real
Spartacus. (Actually, I'd never heard of a FAKE Spartacus, but I
guess the History Channel has.) One of the most fascinating things
about it was the way they visited exact sites, such as the ruins of
Spartacus' lanistae, and the place where he camped on Vesuvius. They
gave you a magnificent view of Campania, the same that Spartacus had,
and you can see why his encampment there gave him a distinct
advantage.

If they run it again, you might want to see it or tape it.

-- Vespasia Pollia


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Spartacus documentary
From:	Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
Date:	Sun, 24 Dec 2000 08:39:55 +0100

Vespasiae Polliae quiritibusque Lucilla Cinna salutem


> The History Channel aired an excellent documentary tonight, The Real
> Spartacus.

Too bad I don't get the history channel in Germany ... :o\
I hope they'll show it here too some day.

> (Actually, I'd never heard of a FAKE Spartacus, but I
> guess the History Channel has.)

I guess they're thinking of Howard Fast's Spartacus and the Charlton
Heston movie as a not-so-real Spartacus? ;o)

> One of the most fascinating things
> about it was the way they visited exact sites, such as the ruins of
> Spartacus' lanistae, and the place where he camped on Vesuvius. They
> gave you a magnificent view of Campania, the same that Spartacus had,
> and you can see why his encampment there gave him a distinct
> advantage.

Too bad I missed it.

It's pretty sad for me to miss so many interesting documentaries which
most likely will never be shown here (TV stations prefer to buy serials
and comedy shows instead of documentaries ...).
Is there a chance to create a kind of thesaurus for all available TV
documentaries on Roman and other ancient topics? Production companies
and film makers should be interested in spreading their work all over
the world.
It could be a kind of link to an official site or whatever ...

Avete atque valete

Lucilla Cornelia Cinna
Quaestrix secunda designata
cives NovaRomana provinciam Germaniam inhabitans

>
>
> If they run it again, you might want to see it or tape it.
>
> -- Vespasia Pollia
>
>
>
>
>
>


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Subject:	[novaroma] Announcement from the Senior Consul
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Sun, 24 Dec 2000 03:23:49 EST

Salvete, citizens of Rome.
I was my intention to summon the Comitia Tributa, this day, but being the
omens were not correct, the summons is postponed until a more precipitous
time. Since this postponement will force the duration of the vote to fall
below the minim time allowed, no more Comitias may be summoned for the rest
of the year.
Fortuna preserve our Republic!
Valete!

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Subject:	[novaroma] NOVA ROMA: Capita III et IV
From:	"Jeroen Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 24 Dec 2000 14:59:23 +0100

Salvete Quirites,

Here are Capita III and IV of the NR novel on Mars. Comments and questions
to be directed at the undersigned's private e-mail. Everyone, feel free to
contact me on any and all English/Latin mistakes, and historical mistakes as
well.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

III. Apparuit rari nantes in vasto gurgite.
------------------------------------------------

Among Novaromani, it was a widespread custom to hold family banquets, often
between several families, and at their respective casae, insulae or villae.
The gentes Apollonia and Moravia were no exception to that social custom.
Although, the former didn't reside in the actual Urbs itself, but in a small
town that was commonly named Ruber, up north in the lowlands of Mars, they
did frequent Nova Roma often, and they always visited their friends of the
gens Moravia, who lived smack in the middle of the city, in a Helleno-Roman
villa that seemed somewhat lost between all those high insulae, offices, not
to mention the maze of streets that carved its way throughout the Urbs as
though it was a living entity on its own. As usual, there was much traffic,
but not as much as on peek days, due to the sandstorm, that had been
developing into something quite large during the past few days, even though
it was an all but rare occurance for a Martian, and nothing special. Many
houses had large cellars filled with rows of amphorae and even pithoi, where
they stockpiled food, should a city be in the middle of a storm for a couple
of weeks. Luckily, this only happened once, in the winter of 2081, which was
now exactly twenty years ago.
"Bring on some more wine," Gnaeus Moravius Piscinus asked the servant, who
had just left the room with some dirty dishes. The dining room was large,
and was well lit by a few genuine torches. It had a window as a roof, but
alas there wasn't much to see now, as it was night. Not that the guests paid
attention to the roof, for that matter. Their plat de résistance had just
been eaten, but they were in for more. The tables and beds were set up in a
half circle, the epicentre of sound being Nicolaus Moravius Vado and Marcus
Apollonius Formosanus, the respective patresfamilias of their gentes. They
were engaged in what was of course the hot topic that held the planet in its
grip for about a week now, the assassination of Cassius. Vado was a Senator
and politically rather active, as was Formosanus, albeit the latter one
wasn't a Senator.
"I've heard that my name appeared several times in some magazines that
voiced all sorts of suspicions, regarding the murder," Vado said, putting
down his poculum, that was emptied. The man had an antique British accent
that seemed to have been passed on unharmed despite any pidgin, Roman or
other influence the Moravii had undergone all these years.
"Dirty magazines, no doubt aware," Piscinus, his eldest son, mumbled whilst
emptying the last drops of his own wine. Vado didn't react, as he was turned
towards Formosanus, who seemed to examine his food carefully. He was the
only one who was still eating. He opened his mouth to say something, but one
of his sons, Sextus Apollonius Draco, was quicker to throw in his remark. He
lay two beds away but was still understandable.
"They have eliminated all logical options, so they think they're left with
the solution," he said.
"I think there is not really a logical option in this case," Formosanus
mused aloud.
"The army, perhaps," Vado offered.
"I doubt that," Aletheia Moravia said, who was Vado's wife. Vado shrugged.
"So do I, but I can't see any other motive to kill Cassius than to prepare
some sort of power usurpation. Yet there are no clear conspiracies going on
in the Senate nor the Comitia, so the army would be the only instrument left
that could have enough power and secrecy to commit such an action."
Formosanus frownend, and finally ate the last bits of his plate, which was
quickly carried away by a servant.
"Gratias," he muttered, his mouth stuffed with food, to the servant, and
then went on about the subject.
"Well, no, we haven't considered any secret para-political organizations. We
have more than enough environmentalists here on Mars who are opposed to the
terraformation programme."
"I doubt it they can gather enough muscle to do such a drastic action,"
Quintus Apollonius Flaccus, said, from the corner of the circle. He was the
eldest son of Formosanus, and had been enjoying the dinner while reading,
much to his frater Lucius Apollonius Aquila's irritation, who lay beside
him.
"Oh, it has awoken! Hear hear!" Aquila said dryly.
"Hmm, you think so?" questioned Piscinus, in response to Flaccus.
"Well yes. They hardly get along with each other, and as small groups alone
they're too small to get enough connections and weapons to prepare a
takeover of Mars."
"I have to remind you though, mi Quinte, that the NSDAP started out that
way, too," Vado said. The servants came in with the wine Piscinus had asked
for, and the dessert.
"But that was over a century ago," Flaccus said, although his voice went a
little lost in the tinkling sound of the new plates, cups and eating.
"That doesn't mean anything," Piscinus replied, stuffing himself with bread.
"How is the praetorial investigation going, by the way?" Iunia Apollonia
Fortuna suddenly asked. She had been unusually quiet tonight, and felt a
little miffed probably because her older sister Turia had chosen to stay at
home rather than to join the fun.
"Investigation? Did we have an investigation?" Vado replied ironically. The
Moravii smirked.
"I read that a Senator had found some sort of clue, though," Natalia Moravia
said, from the other corner of the halfcircle.
"Octavius you'll mean," Vado said, "Yes, as the matter a fact he has, but he
said to us he wasn't priviliged to talk about it. Orders from the Praetores
and the police."
"Mehercule, has this become a police state already?" Cornelius Moravius
Laurentibus mumbled, more to himself than to someone else. His toga was a
little stained with food spots, and the focus in his eyes showed he'd had
quite too much wine for his own good. Usually it was Flaccus of the
Apollonii who got drunk though.
"I still feel that the possibilities of the army preparing a coup d'état
should be examined, though," Piscinus spoke, his face in a frown. At first
sight he looked nearly as old as his own father, but that was because his
parents still looked young for their age, and he had always looked more
serious and older than he physically was, which had always been a great
advantage. But he was still nearly fifteen years older than the oldest of
the liberi Apolloniorum though.
"Then take your concerns to the Praetores," Formosanus suggested. Again, he
was slow in finishing his dish, but in the end his plates were almost fully
cleansed, whereas his son Draco had the nasty habit of seemingly leaving
more ravages around him than there had ever been on the plate. Therefore no
one enjoyed lying next to him on the bed, a thing he got upset about from
time to time.
"The Praetores? They believe too much in the army. Not to say they are
corrupt, but you have to be honest, Forme, there is no evidence whatsoever
regarding a conspiracy of the army."
"Besides," Vado added, "there are quite some army leaders within the Senate.
They wouldn't like the idea. This should have been a regular police
investigation from the start, really."
"We could send one of our friends to inflitrate, of course," Piscinus
suggested, his thoughts scheming ahead again.
"But we are accused of factionalism already on the political scene," Draco
remarked.
"So? Nothing prevents us from researching things on our own. The
assassination of Cassius is a really disturbing thing. Everyone is focused
on the tragedy of the fact, but what disturbs me most is that there is no
clear motive. He had his share of enemies of course, but never were they
lasting or life threatening," his paterfamilias replied.
"That still doesn't mean the army did it," Aquila said.
"Or the martianalists," Flaccus added.
"Yes, but you have to face the facts," Piscinus interrupted, "Cassius was
found dead in his office. No guard had seen anybody suspicious entering the
building. As the matter a fact, he was alone in the building. Only his
guards were there, and their corruptibility degree is very low. Yet, they
are linked to the army. Which loyalty would extend the furthest: that to the
Tribunus Militaris, or that to an ex-Consul?"
Meanwhile, the torches were diminishing in brightness, and the servants had
come in to clean the remnants of the dessert. As usual, they had some extra
work with cleaning the small space between Draco's bed and table.
"But are you truly serious about this? Would Audens really try to seize
power on Mars? I don't think so," Formosanus said.
"There are other famous army officials, too," Vado replied.
"There is quite some discontentment among the military apparatus, though,"
Draco said musingly, "they're pretty tired of being seen as ancient legions
with no real skills or function other than to entertain the people during
the yearly parade in the Circus Maximus. They want to be taken seriously,
and there are some extremists among them, too."
"Yes, I've heard similar stories," Aletheia said.
"From whom?" Vado inquired.
"Connections," his wife answered with a smile. Vado just raised one eyebrow
and turned back to the Apollonii.
"But who do you want to send in the army to take a look what's going on
there? If you want to have a serious investigation to protect the state, you
need to handle it seriously, Pisce," Formosanus said, returning back to the
topic at hand.
"It has to be someone trustworthy," Piscinus said, "perhaps someone from
within our own circle of friends."
"I'm too old," Vado coughed. Formosanus just looked innocently around the
room, and the women seemed to be very uninterested, suddenly. Piscinus
looked around, and his eyes quickly dismissed his younger brother Cornelius,
who had nearly fallen asleep. Then he focused on the Apollonii.
"Since you say you have connections down at the army, I'd say let Draco do
it," he finally said.
"A wonderful idea," Vado said cheerfully. Aquila and Flaccus grinned.
"I only know some people in the lower divisions! Besides, I'm only
seventeen, you know."
"Exactly why it won't seem suspicious. The army gets a lot of young
recruits," Formosanus said. Draco stared at him blankly.
"For how long do you want me to sign up? And what's in it for me?"
"I don't know, start with a training course of three months. If you manage
to solve at least a part of this case, you'll be credited greatly," Piscinus
answered.
"I'm not going to risk my life for my own honour."
"There's much more to it, too. More political power. And you might finally
be able to get enough support among politicians to overturn that law that
regulates ages to be able to assume an office. Also remember that your
application for Aedilis Plebis is still pending in the Senate."
A silence fell.
"Ok, I'll do it. But if I die, I'm going to send Kerberos after you from the
Hades!"
"Gratias," Piscinus said, grinningly, "let's toast on your good health."
Everyone still in the ability to do so raised their poculum and brought out
a toast on the gods, or on Draco's success.
Vado clapped his hands, and gave a short electronic signal through a small
computer in the table. The main table in the middle sank into the ground,
and the torches suddenly went out, being replaced by a very dim artificial
light. Music started playing, and suddenly dancers entered the room.
Conversations fell silent, and under the eye of the all knowing gods, the
night went on until the early hours.

IV. Memento mori
----------------------

Today was the day of the Cassius' funeral. The Aediles had stopped all
traffic in the city, and a large mass of people watched or followed the
march. His former lictores carried an open coffin, in which the body lay,
freshly donned in a bright toga. In the black cars that preceded sat
Patricia Cassia, among some others of his closest friends and relatives. Not
much was said. In a way Patricia was touched by the multitude of people that
had come outside to watch or follow, but on the other hand it didn't help
the sadness and the missing. Like a long lint the crowd seemed to slide past
the car. Some of the people seemed sad, others looked rather indifferent.
But it didn't matter.
Normally the pontifex maximus would have taken care of some funeral rites,
if it was the funeral of a Senator or another high ranking official, but
Cassius had been the pontifex maximus himself. The irony of Fortuna, she
thought, but of course Fortuna gave no answer. Instead, the burden of
silence in the car seemed to grow heavier as they approached the city gates.
Like in ancient Roman times, the dead were buried outside the city. This had
given some problems from time to time, as much sand drifted away, and once,
during a sandstorm a few years ago, corpses were blown from their grave
against the city glass. Since that macabre event the dead were buried much
deeper, and they made much more solid tombstones or tumuli, too. Patricia
turned her eyes upwards, away from the people, and looked at the quiet
morning sky through Nova Roma's transparent shields. It looked a little
purple, and a small bank of clouds drifted on by, painted in pink. Clouds
were a rare occurrence, and the only reported case of rain ever was made
around the equator, in the neighborhood of Tharsis. Patricia wondered if her
husband's spirit had made its transit yet to the other world. She had prayed
for assistance from the various underworld gods, but even though it
strengthened her to an extent, it solved nothing of the mystery of the
murder. Luckily she was being informed well enough by the Praetores. The
investigation went on slowly, and there was a great fear among the justice
department that the mysterious killer, Eugenias, would strike again before
they could catch him. Eugenias could very well be among the crowd that bowed
its head graciously for the passing procession - he could even be a lictor
carrying Cassius' body! But no, it had no use being paranoid.
The march had stopped at the first city gate, after all lictores had
disappeared, including the people that had faithfully follwed the procession
and the black cars. Patricia and her sons and daughters left the cars, too,
as well as some pontifices and close friends. They all had to wear a thin
protection suit to be able to walk outside the city. It came across
clumsily, especially when they had to veil Cassius with a similar thing.
However, after a few minutes everyone who was priviliged to go outside did
so. Cassius was carried by the pontifices, and from a small distance behind
the rest she looked one last time at her husband. No tears came anymore, it
felt as though she had cried them all away in the past few days.
Powerlessness, yes. Emptiness, perhaps. Those were the feelings that stalked
her. At least, she hoped, may he live on in peace someplace else.
The first gate was closed behind them, and the air from it was being sucked
away. When the small tunnel had been completely vacuumed, the second gate
opened. It was a pretty windless day on Mars, and the sun was rising above
the relatively flat surface, that was randomly ornamented with rocks that
looked like dry blood stains. The intimate and above all silent procession
went on to the hole that had already been dug a few days before. The
tombstone had also been prepared. In fact it was more a family crypt for the
gens Cassia than it was a single grave, but it felt so wrong to finally have
someone of their family placed there. Nevertheless, the half-open coffin
with the veil was being roped down into the deep shaft, while the presiding
priest, Marcus Cornelius Scriptor, spoke gentle words and verses in Latin,
which Patricia fragmentarily heard. Her daughters were all crying, and her
sons looked sternly into the enigmatic horizons, or shed tears as well.
Cassius' friends helped to close the pit, their faces barely visible behind
the transparent oxygen veil, but Patricia could also guess the emotions that
lived below their surfaces. When the pit was finally filled with the rusty
earth, a preliminary tombstone was pulled over it, and deeply attached into
the ground so it wouldn't fly away with the next sandstorm. His tombstone
read:

Sum Marcus Cassius Iulianus
Ego requiscam in pacem
Requiscas quoque, o comes

It was a rather simple epitaph, but then again many Senatores held the
virtue of simplicitas high. To set an example is always better than to talk
about it, and Cassius had always been a practical man, the embodiment of
Roman functionality.
Scriptor's carefully prepared text had come to an end, and the funeral was
more or less over. Of course many of the people present here were invited at
the domus of the gens Cassia later on the day. At least it would have
Patricia thinking of something more practical, such as organizing the
memorial banquet of tonight, rather than mourning, and falling deeper into
that senseless black hole. Sol Invictus stood high at the morning sky now,
like a diamond glittering, so far away, and shone brightly over a planet
that had been dead for millennia, and now harboured new dead once again.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Valete,
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Announcement: The Tribes are to Assemble-curator  differium
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Sun, 24 Dec 2000 15:51:47 +0100

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Not long ago I bemoaned the timing of the proposed comitia
balloting, imagining that despite the short notice, lack of clear
information on the topics to be decided, and selection of a most
inopportune time period for the electorate, *naturally* the consuls
would not do it really *illegally*.

Now Senator Lambienus has published citations from existing Nova
Roman law which show the present proposed balloting to be illegal.
Being reminded of that, presumably the convoking consul or both
should cancel the balloting so as not to be in violation of the law.
That failing, presumably the tribunes should step in as defenders of
the Constitution, as is their constitutional right and duty.That
failing for any reason, how are these polls to be stopped so that we
do not breach our own procedural laws? The senate might be presumed
to be a body having some responsibility for this, but who can or will
call it into session when the consuls themselves are proposing an
illegal vote?

We have laws in effect to guarantee an adequate period for
discussion of proposed legislation and a right to be informed in
advance on what we will be asked to vote on in sufficient detail to
be able to discuss it intelligently. If magistrates behave in a rogue
manner and simply ignore the laws, they make it appear impossible
that our basic model of government can ever work for us in the manner
most of us here wish for it to.

If this balloting goes ahead in violation of existing Nova Roman
law, the results of the poll will be invalid. If any changes are made
on that basis to the centuries, they may also be regarded as invalid,
and this affect future voting validity. After losing so much moral
legitimacy in the not-so-distant past, are our leaders now going to
drag not only themselves but the whole People into legal
illegitimacy?

Let us draw back from the brink.

Valete!


Subject: Re: Announcement: The Tribes are to Assemble-curator
differium

T Labienus Q Fabio Quiritibusque S P D

The timing of this election bothers me, as does the manner in which
it has been called.

First, all of the various leges Vediae which appertain to election
procedures require the magistrate who calls the election to supply:

"1. In the case of a law, the content of the rogationes (proposals to
be voted upon). While each proposal must deal with only a single
topic, multiple proposals may be considered and voted on by the
comitia at the same time.

"2. In the case of a magisterial election, the names of the
candidates and the offices for which they stand.

"3. In the case of a legal case, the charges, names of the litigants,
and consequences facing the defendant."

While the third point doesn't matter in this case, the other two do.
"Lex Minucia de rogatorium (on Rogators)" (used purely for example
and because it was first in the list) is hardly enough information to
allow discussion. It is certainly not the *content* of the proposal,
which is what is required by law. And, we don't have any idea who
might be running for the curator differum position.

Second, considering that a large proportion of our cives will be on
holiday and incapable of sufficiently paying attention to any
discussion that arises, is it really wise to use this time to both
revise the century point system and attempt to promulgate the latest
version of the single-most controversial piece of legislation in our
short history?!

Finally, the law requires that at least two market days pass between
the start of voting and the close of the polls. That's a minimum of
ten days. In this case, voting starts on the 24th and lasts to the
30th; a mere seven days at best.

This vote is irregular, illegal, and ill-advised. Surely it could be
delayed until the new year? I realize that a new set of consules
would have to preside over it, but wouldn't that be better than to
end the year in this manner?

Valete

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius    
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Re: Announcement: The Tribes are to Assemble-curator differium
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" <c_marius_m@-------->
Date:	Sun, 24 Dec 2000 10:30:48 -0500

Salvete Marce Apolloni et alii


:
:1. The proposed Lex Cornelia et Maria de Nominibus Mutandis.
:This is the latest version of the (in)famous "Gender Edictum". It
:contains much good material on the regulation of standard names for
:Nova Romans. Unfortunately there are sections in which sexual
:minorities are required to use names opposite in gender to the social
:gender with which they normally interact with the world.

That isn't quite true. Rather, this lex recognizes that the gender of our
names reflects our sex, and is not
arbitrarily chosen by us.

Although
:there are provisions for transsexuals to change the genders of their
:names through a laborious and often expensive and time-consuming
:local procedure - and local rules differ widely from place to place,
:introducing additional inequity - these are primarily for those using
:surgery.

The provisions in the lex are quite flexible and allow multiple paths for
transsexuals to apply for a gender-based name change. I have seen no tests
of any of the provisions, and would be interested in any real information
that you, or anyone else, has on costs to obtain gender-based name changes
from municipal authorities.

Those who simply have a social gender different from gross
:physical gender are rather left in limbo. Great discretion is also
:left to whoever may be the censors at the time, leaving doubt as to
:the degree of sympathy applicants might be given, depending on the
:personal biases of the censors from year to year.

Discretion is also granted to patres et matresfamiliae, the people who
generally would know the applicants best and best understand their
situations and needs. In the absence of a desirable outcome for applicants,
they have explicit rights of appeal, first to the censores, then to the
Comitia Populi Tributa.
:
:So, if you are a person who is concerned with the rights of
:minorities, or simply are not one wishing to make unnecessary
:bureaucratic trouble for your fellow human being and civis, I
:strongly advise you to give this one a resounding thumbs down.

But, if you are a person who recognizes that we are a community of men and
women, and that transsexuals are real people whose situations are best
resolved between them and their patres et matres, I urge you to vote yes for
this lex. This lex is not about bureaucracy, it actually is meant to
decentralize the process of applying for name changes, and provide fair,
uniform means for those who really are in the minority to change the gender
of their names to suit their real-world situation. Closing our eyes and
ignoring the relation of gender to sex will not accomplish that, it will
only make us more of a role-playing entity than we now are.
:
:2 Lex Cornelia et Maria "Abdicatum" (?).

I apologize to all of you for the confusing (err, perhaps better "wrong")
name for this lex. I would like to see it submitted as Lex Cornelia et
Maria de Civitate Eiuranda.

:I am not absolutely sure what this is from the title but it may refer
:to an edictum which I call the Bash-Returning-Citizens-in-the-Teeth
:Edictum. This provides for differnt amounts of punishments (not
:called such) and temporary curtailment of civil rights, etc. for
:citizens who wish to return to Nova Roma after giving up their
:citizenship. It has been suggested that this will make people think
:more before leaving (doubtful, because we have a 9-day waiting period
:before a resignation takes effect, and anyone going to change his
:mind would usually do so within that period).

Well, first of all, this lex would mandate that 9-day waiting period. I
instituted that 9-day waiting period myself, but future censores, absent
passage of this lex, would be free to issue a new edict abolishing it. Once
this lex is passed, censores will have to follow its provision, including
the 9-day waiting period, until/unless a new relevant lex supersedes it.

Secondly, the lex is needed to provide a uniform procedure to handle
resignations. As long as such are lacking, we may all disagree on what
citizenship is and isn't, and future censores may pass edicta that are much
more punitive or lenient.

As co-author of the edict that is the source of this lex, I would like to
say that it is my view that citizenship in Nova Roma is a serious
commitment, as voluntarily sought citizenship in any state is. To treat
resigning and returning citizens as though nothing had happened sends a
contrary message to all of us.

It has also been
:suggested that people will respect their citizenship more if we show
:our power to hurt those who want to return.

I don't know who suggested that, but this lex is not about power or hurting.
It is about establishing a uniform and fair understanding of what
citizenship is, and what exactly happens when citizenship is renounced.
:
:We do not have a problem with returnees because they almost do not
:exist, and I do not see why we have to treat them unwelcomingly if
:they realise that Nova Roma is the place for them after all. If you
:do not believe in unnecessary punitiveness and vindictiveness, and
:would rather welcome back our wandering sons and daughters with a hug
:and a smile instead of a smart slap to the cheek, I suggest that you
:give this one a ringing NO as well.

The reality is not so simple and fluffy as you suggest, Marce Apolloni. I
have embraced returnees, as you well know, as has my colleague Censor Sulla.
Nova Roma has endured resignations of key people at tough times, and the
phenomenon of noisy protest resignations. All of us deserve a common
framework in which to live and work, whereby we know the value of our
citizenship and receive equal, fair treatment if we take the serious step of
renouncing it.

As I have said before, I bear no ill-will toward those who depart, and
acknowledge without hesitation that our Res Publica has been saved by some
citizens who have themselves departed and returned. But I also am very
aware of breakdowns in trust and morale caused by resignations, and believe
firmly that encouraging protest resignations and revolving doors policies
would tire our citizenry and sap our collective energies significantly.

Valete

C Marius Merullus
:



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Subject:	[novaroma] Happy Holidays
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sun, 24 Dec 2000 16:07:30 -0000

Salvete Omnes:

I wish you all a happy holiday :)

Whatever way you celebrate this joyous season, I wish you a memorable and
fulfilling time.

May the New Year bring happiness and prosperity to each of you and your
family.

Amicitia et Fides,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
_________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 1142-gatherings
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Sun, 24 Dec 2000 11:28:02 EST

Salve,
I have a few suggestions on this subject. All my life even as a child
my parents belonged to various national clubs all who had both local and
national gatherings. Currently I am very active with the local SCA chapter
and have been for 16 years. I have learned many group lessons on the art of
having a gathering.
1. Would it be more practical to have simple guide lines for
official gatherings than to have the aediles incharge of
them. It may be better to make them the clearing house or the
persons that we contact that we want to host a gathering.
2. What kind of guidelines you ask? (again just a few suggestions)
. The most basic would be to officially make the commitment to
uphold the laws of NR and those of our local community.
1. Goals and a rough of proposed events if any i.e. a religious
gathering, a market day, reenactment event feasting or what ever we
can think of.
2. site costs and event fees if any. ( to recover cost of
said site a dinners if needed or activities
3. number of persons who do attend
4. official membership flyers.
5. any official matters that are discussed in an official
fashion.

remember these are only suggestions. As far as I know I am the only member
of NR with in driving distance (under 2 hours by my mind set) of Fort Wayne,
IN. So I am making these suggestions because I feel we must work on making
more human contact and not just the cyber variety.

Prima A. Olivia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Re: Announcement: The Tribes are to Assemble-curator differium
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Sun, 24 Dec 2000 20:21:57 +0100

M. Apollonius Formosanus C. Mario Merullo et omnibus Quiritibus
S.P.D.

Let me thank you, Merulle, for this reasoned and decent defence of
your bills. I have long been craving reasonable discourse on the
merits of this legislation rather than the brickbats others have been
throwing around so unconstructively of late. You provide a model for
us all in your post, and I want to express my true appreciation ex
corde.

(Comments continued below)

On Sun, 24 Dec 2000 10:30:48 -0500, Gaius Marius Merullus wrote:
>Salvete Marce Apolloni et alii
>:
>:1. The proposed Lex Cornelia et Maria de Nominibus Mutandis.
>:This is the latest version of the (in)famous "Gender Edictum". It
>:contains much good material on the regulation of standard names for
>:Nova Romans. Unfortunately there are sections in which sexual
>:minorities are required to use names opposite in gender to the
>social
>:gender with which they normally interact with the world.
>
>That isn't quite true. Rather, this lex recognizes that the gender
>of our names reflects our sex, and is not arbitrarily chosen by us.

MAF: I do not think that a transsexual "arbitrarily" chooses his/her
personal/social gender. Just like the rest of us, the person has a
perceived gender identity that he/she knows from the way his mind
works with respect to sexual matters. Some new theories identify this
with an organic brain structure sexually different from the sexual
organs themselves. But our animus lives in the brain, as it were, and
it is most natural for us to identify with the feelings and
perceptions that arise with that.

>
> Although
>:there are provisions for transsexuals to change the genders of
>their names through a laborious and often expensive and
>time-consuming local procedure - and local rules differ widely from
>place to place, introducing additional inequity - these are
>primarily for those using surgery.
>
>The provisions in the lex are quite flexible and allow multiple
>paths for transsexuals to apply for a gender-based name change. I
>have seen no tests of any of the provisions, and would be interested
>in any real information that you, or anyone else, has on costs to
>obtain gender-based name changes from municipal authorities.
>
>Those who simply have a social gender different from gross
>:physical gender are rather left in limbo. Great discretion is also
>:left to whoever may be the censors at the time, leaving doubt as to
>:the degree of sympathy applicants might be given, depending on the
>:personal biases of the censors from year to year.
>
>Discretion is also granted to patres et matresfamiliae, the people
>who generally would know the applicants best and best understand
>their situations and needs. In the absence of a desirable outcome
>for applicants, they have explicit rights of appeal, first to the
>censores, then to the Comitia Populi Tributa.

MAF: I would certainly not wish to denigrate your good work in terms
of providing for resolution on the gentile level. I know you are
proud of those aspects, and justly so. However, the final
registration of the name is in the hands of the censores, is it not?
Do they not have an effective veto over the decision of the
pater/mater familias? And although I applaud the inclusion of the
right of appeal to the comitia, any comitia in Roma Antiqua or Nova
Roma is exercising its sovereignty in such votes, not voting simply
as judges or jurors - so if there were a widespread intolerance or
particular popular dislike of the person in question in a given case,
then it is possible that a person with complete justification for his
case might still in the end not get his name.

And presumably a *new* civis of this sort under this proposed lex
would either have to report a "sex" on his application form that was
different from his personal/social gender, and then adopt a name of a
gender unnatural for him/her, and then get it changed by a
pater/mater familias - and then possibly appeal, OR he would have to
simply say that his sex is what he really feels himself to be and
then open himself to possible charges of "lying" later. If I am wrong
about this interpretation, please feel free to clarify.

On the other hand, if we had wording that simply said: "A name shall
be consistent with the social gender of the civis, and shall be
consistent within itself as to grammatical gender", then we would not
have all of these potential problems and complications, and the
possibility for harassments and miscarriages of justice would be
eliminated at a stroke.

I think that if we really wanted to deal with this bill fairly, we
would put up *alternatives* of it, one with your text on these
points, and one with a text similar to mine, so as to give the People
a chance not just to reject something, but to make a real choice.
>:
>:So, if you are a person who is concerned with the rights of
>:minorities, or simply are not one wishing to make unnecessary
>:bureaucratic trouble for your fellow human being and civis, I
>:strongly advise you to give this one a resounding thumbs down.
>
>But, if you are a person who recognizes that we are a community of
>men and women, and that transsexuals are real people whose
>situations are best resolved between them and their patres et
>matres, I urge you to vote yes for this lex. This lex is not about
>bureaucracy, it actually is meant to decentralize the process of
>applying for name changes, and provide fair, uniform means for those
>who really are in the minority to change the gender of their names
>to suit their real-world situation.

MAF: Yes, insofar as this is a Lex Maria I am sure you are speaking
the truth about your intentions, Merulle, but it is also a Lex
Cornelia, and it is he who had a rather different concept of it and
will still be in office in a few days' time when you leave, and
interpreting it for some time to come. With a new collega who might
have an interpretation more Cornelian than Marian too.

And this constant suspicion about who is *really* in this minority
seems to me rather paranoid in general whenever I hear it. Who of you
out there feels an urge to change your Nova Roman name to that of the
opposite sex and to live under such a persona here in NR in
everything you do? I only know of one such person in Nova Roma at
present, so it's far less than one percent of us, apparently.
"Normal" people simply don't want to do this, and would find it even
unnatural and disagreeable. And "abnormal" people in this respect are
exactly the ones we want to help through a flexible and humane
system. So, I think that simple self-selection is quite safe.

>Closing our eyes and ignoring the relation of gender to sex will not
>accomplish that, it will only make us more of a role-playing entity
>than we now are.

MAF: I can only say that I support exactly the same policy in
macronational existence, and see my concern for it here in Nova Roma
to be simply a part of my universal desire to see colour/ race/
sex-blindness in civil rights. Nothing to do with rôle-playing, but
rather something to do with serious real-life, real-world ethical
concerns that apply here too.
>:
>:2 Lex Cornelia et Maria "Abdicatum" (?).
>
>I apologize to all of you for the confusing (err, perhaps better
>"wrong") name for this lex. I would like to see it submitted as Lex
>Cornelia et Maria de Civitate Eiuranda.
>
>:I am not absolutely sure what this is from the title but it may
>refer :to an edictum which I call the
>Bash-Returning-Citizens-in-the-Teeth
>:Edictum. This provides for differnt amounts of punishments (not
>:called such) and temporary curtailment of civil rights, etc. for
>:citizens who wish to return to Nova Roma after giving up their
>:citizenship. It has been suggested that this will make people think
>:more before leaving (doubtful, because we have a 9-day waiting
>period before a resignation takes effect, and anyone going to change
>his :mind would usually do so within that period).
>
>Well, first of all, this lex would mandate that 9-day waiting
>period. I instituted that 9-day waiting period myself, but future
>censores, absent passage of this lex, would be free to issue a new
>edict abolishing it. Once this lex is passed, censores will have to
follow its provision, including the 9-day waiting period,
until/unless a new relevant lex supersedes it.
>
>Secondly, the lex is needed to provide a uniform procedure to handle
>resignations. As long as such are lacking, we may all disagree on
>what citizenship is and isn't, and future censores may pass edicta
>that are much more punitive or lenient.

MAF: This is all very well, and I approve and even congratulate both
you and Sulla on this part.
>
>As co-author of the edict that is the source of this lex, I would
>like to say that it is my view that citizenship in Nova Roma is a
>serious commitment, as voluntarily sought citizenship in any state
>is. To treat resigning and returning citizens as though nothing
>had happened sends a contrary message to all of us.

MAF: I also think it is a serious commitment. But I want *therefore*
to *welcome back* returning cives who after leaving have come to
realise just how good it is to be a NR civis and, taking it
seriously, come back.
>
> It has also been suggested that people will respect their
>citizenship more if we show our power to hurt those who want to
>return.
>
>I don't know who suggested that, but this lex is not about power or
>hurting.

MAF: It seems to me to be the underlying psychology. And both
irrational in terms of achieving its goal and ethically
mean-spirited.

> It is about establishing a uniform and fair understanding >of what
citizenship is, and what exactly happens when citizenship is
>renounced.

MAF: Fine. But we could do that without treating them almost like
criminals for *coming back*. We could have a "uniform and fair
understanding" that everyone has a right to leave voluntarily, and
that everyone who left voluntarily (as opposed to those exiled for
some serious offense) has a right to come back and make a new
beginning (not keeping previous privileges, of course). It would not
hurt for the censors to give them a special welcome, in fact, since
coming back should be thought of as a specially meritorious act. It
should be encouraged, not discouraged. And punishing returnees
discourages return, not resignation, as most people who leave
probably have no intention to come back, and simply don't care about
what would happen if they someday later wanted to.
>:
>:We do not have a problem with returnees because they almost do not
>:exist, and I do not see why we have to treat them unwelcomingly if
>:they realise that Nova Roma is the place for them after all. If you
>:do not believe in unnecessary punitiveness and vindictiveness, and
>:would rather welcome back our wandering sons and daughters with a
>hug and a smile instead of a smart slap to the cheek, I suggest that
>you give this one a ringing NO as well.
>
>The reality is not so simple and fluffy as you suggest, Marce
>Apolloni. I have embraced returnees, as you well know, as has my
>colleague Censor Sulla.

MAF: Actually I did not know, but except for in connection with the
political termoil of the so-called "coup" and dictatorship, it seems
to me that nobody was able to mention more than one or two returnees,
when we asked everyone here on the Main List. Am I not correct? Are
there censorial statistics available, preferably categorised by year?

>Nova Roma has endured resignations of key people at tough times,

MAF: If you mean serving officials who simply *vanished*, you could
easily convince me that a bit of punishement was in order. But that
is a very special case, and their problem is not that they came back
or even simply left, but that they vanished leaving their
responsibilities in limbo.

>and the phenomenon of noisy protest resignations. All of us deserve
>a common framework in which to live and work, whereby we know the
>value of our citizenship and receive equal, fair treatment if we
>take the serious step of renouncing it.
>
>As I have said before, I bear no ill-will toward those who depart,
>and acknowledge without hesitation that our Res Publica has been
>saved by some citizens who have themselves departed and returned.
>But I also am very aware of breakdowns in trust and morale caused by
>resignations, and believe firmly that encouraging protest
>resignations and revolving doors policies would tire our citizenry
>and sap our collective energies significantly.

MAF: There we have quite a different argument: that *resignations*
are undesirable. Well, of course! Which is one good reason to make
this a *nice* place, a *fair* place, a *welcoming and accepting*
place for *all* of our citizens so that they will not want to leave.
(Letting them have a name of the grammatical gender they prefer for
example :-)

But it is a *fact* that we cannot punish citizens for leaving,
because a leaving civis who is still sure after nine days that he
wants to go will just go and be beyond our reach. (Nor would it be
right to punish them, as leaving is not immoral, and is a sort of
right.) The cives who come back - in a number I would rather see
greater rather than smaller - have already made a unique affirmation
of their love for and commitment to Nova Roma just by coming back -
and very likely just to face the same problems that they had left.
Why should they bear the whole brunt of our frustration and
disappointment for all those who leave? Let's have a more generous,
forgiving and magnanimous policy, please.

Merulle, I generally agree with you that the constructive aspects of
these two bills in terms of establishing order and consistency are
very good. With 80% of the whole text in the two I agree. I therefore
am all the more disappointed in the fact that the first contains
provisions that are essentially discriminatory against certain sexual
minorities, and that the other contains elements of vindictiveness
that are not even well suited to discouraging resignations, but would
be very good at discouraging return.

I therefore repeat my recommendation that these bills be turned down
by us the People in their present form, not so that the truely good
work in them by Merullus and also by Sulla should be lost, but just
so that sometime in the new year we might get new versions laid
before us without the parts that are unhelpful and offensive.

To you all, Quirites, I wish a Dies Solis Invicti or Dies
Nativitatis Christi joyous and holy.

Valete!



Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius    
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________


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Subject:	[novaroma] Digest Number 1142
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
Date:	Sun, 24 Dec 2000 15:34:01 -0500

Salvete, Quirites

May this find you all in good health with time to enjoy it! I wish everyone
a Season
of happy times and prospects of a better new year.

Now to the wonderful suggestion of my colleague C Aelius I will only thank
him for it and join him in a continuance of the celebration... Plus vinum
omnibus!


Augur Ericius:
Saturnalia was originally only one day...

I believe most contemporary Romans continue to celebrate Saturnalia even
after the
23rd of December...

I propose that Nova Roma extend the official recognition of Saturnalia
through 26
December. The three days would be Dies Comitales, as they are now, as many
of the
days from 17 through 23 December are now. Enlarging a fine holiday with
religious
roots and overtones is certainly a Roman thing to do. As is taking back
what is ours
and expanding our turf at the same time. =({[:-)

Hilaritas. Comitas. Pietas.

C. Aelius Ericius.
Paterfamilias gens Aelia. Augur. Pontifex. Senator.


Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Censor designatus ;-)
When I first saw the post calling for a vote at the very end of the year I
admit I was shocked. I was not sure which way would be the best to call for
it to be cancelled. Also, because I have always held that the Comitia should
decide issues I would have felt the hypocrite to call for a halt. I was
pleased to see the Tribune Plebis designatus Fortunatus bring forth clear
AND constitutionally sound opposition to the way this vote was being brought
forth...

T Labienus:
Subject: Re: Announcement: The Tribes are to Assemble-curator differium

T Labienus Q Fabio Quiritibusque S P D

The timing of this election bothers me, as does the manner in which it
has been called.

First, all of the various leges Vediae which appertain to election
procedures require the magistrate who calls the election to supply:

"1. In the case of a law, the content of the rogationes (proposals to be
voted upon). While each proposal must deal with only a single topic,
multiple proposals may be considered and voted on by the comitia at the
same time.

"2. In the case of a magisterial election, the names of the candidates
and the offices for which they stand.

"3. In the case of a legal case, the charges, names of the litigants,
and consequences facing the defendant."

While the third point doesn't matter in this case, the other two do.
"Lex Minucia de rogatorium (on Rogators)" (used purely for example and
because it was first in the list) is hardly enough information to allow
discussion. It is certainly not the *content* of the proposal, which is
what is required by law. And, we don't have any idea who might be
running for the curator differum position.

Second, considering that a large proportion of our cives will be on
holiday and incapable of sufficiently paying attention to any discussion
that arises, is it really wise to use this time to both revise the
century point system and attempt to promulgate the latest version of the
single-most controversial piece of legislation in our short history?!

Finally, the law requires that at least two market days pass between the
start of voting and the close of the polls. That's a minimum of ten
days. In this case, voting starts on the 24th and lasts to the 30th; a
mere seven days at best.

This vote is irregular, illegal, and ill-advised. Surely it could be
delayed until the new year? I realize that a new set of consules would
have to preside over it, but wouldn't that be better than to end the
year in this manner?

Valete


Subject: Re: Announcement: The Tribes are to Assemble-curator differium

T. Labienus Fortunatus makes very good points here, and cites "chapter
and verse" relating to the problems with this election. To take this
one step farther, I do not think Nova Roma needs another election in
its short history that might be conducted in a manner that will leave
it open to challenges down the line. One of the items up for a vote
being That Edict truly calls for the matter being done where there is
not the least room for wrangling. I believe the lex regarding That
Edict will pass, so please have the decision where there is no room
for any "faction" to get more mileage from. I am tired of all this
bull. [bulls are best with gilded horns before, and barbeque sauce
after]

C. Aelius Ericius.

Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Censor designatus ;-)
I join with my Senatorial colleagues in their request that the vote be
delayed or held over until it can be done properly.

Now on to another Issue. I was very happy to see the return of a dear friend
who is a wonderfully talented individual (and lots of fun too:-) [I hope she
will be able to come to Roman Days this year!].
I will be very pleased to give her my complete support in her efforts to
resume her work as Curatrix Aquila. So with that I also join my fellow
citizens in welcoming Vespasia Pollia Iuliana as Civis Novae Romae, Bene
omnibus nobis.

Vespasia Pollia:
I've been informed that the editorship of the Eagle is no longer a
Senate appointment but an elected office, and I should announce my
candidacy. (Well, I've been away a while, can you tell?)So..this is
my announcement.

I edited the Eagle in the past and really enjoyed it. I think the
newsletter has enormous potential to become more than an internal NR
instrument -- I believe that, with a little work and more people
contributing, it can be a general interest magazine. But first, we
need to get more Nova Romans involved, and build up our subscription
list.

If elected, I intend to make the Eagle my primary focus (last time I
was distracted by political office. BIG mistake!).

Thank you.

Vespasia Pollia Iuliana
(formerly Flavia Claudia Iuliana)


Salve Vespasi Pollia et Avete Omnes,

As a Homo Antiquus here in the New City, I remember Vespasia Pollia's tenure
as editor of the Eagle
quite well.

She has my support, whenever the election takes place.

Welcome home old friend.

In Amicus sub Fidelis, Benedicte Omnes!
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator


L Equitius:
Nunc ad domo aviae imus !

Di deaeque te ament
Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Censor designatus


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