Subject:	[novaroma] Sprachprobleme in der Nova Roma
From:	"Herr Schäfer" <schaefer.paxromana@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 02:06:04 +0100 (CET)

Caution - infringement of the law!!!!!

Salve Citizens of the Nova Roma, Salve
Senator Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix,

Salve Bürger der Nova Roma, Salve Sena-
tor Lucius Cornelius Sulla,

die Wahlen in der Nova Roma sind mitt-
lerweile Geschichte. Im Vorfeld dieser
wichtigen Wahlen wurden viele Versprech-
ungen gemacht. Soweit es mir möglich war, Euere unzähligen, in der eng-lischen Sprache verfaßten Wahlver-sprechungen zu entziffern, war das Sprachproblem in der Nova Roma ein "angeblich" wichtiges Thema. Leider ist davon heute in Eueren Mitteilungen nichts mehr zu lesen. Wertvolle In-formationen, Fragen und Ausführungen sind für viele Bürger der Nova Roma, vor allem in den europäischen
Provinzen, nicht nachvollziehbar, weil
es hier eben mehr Sprachen gibt, als nur
die Englische. Wieviele Bürger können
ihr wertvolles kontinental-europäisches Wissen über die römische Geschichte den anderen Bürgern der Nova Roma nicht mitteilen, wieviele Fragen können nicht gestellt werden? Ich gebe zu bedenken, daß gerade die europäischen Bürger der Nova Roma mehr Berührungspunkte mit der glorreichen Geschichte des römischen Imperiums haben, als anderswo. In unseren europäischen Ländern befinden sich die römischen Stätten, Villen, Bauwerke und Tempel. Hier ist Rom allgegenwärtig. Was haben dagegen, mit Verlaub, die amerikanischen Provinzen vorzuweisen?
(dieser Satz führt wahrscheinlich zur
Ausbürgerung aus der Nova Roma).
Also, liebe Vertreter des Volkes der
Nova Roma, laßt Euch etwas einfallen,
damit auch die nicht englischsprachigen
Bürger Europas an dem Geschehen in der
Nova Roma teilhaben können! Bei uns in
Europa ist das Erbe des Imperium Romanum
allgegenwärtig. Ich selbst brauche in
meiner saarländischen Heimat nicht weit
zur reisen, um römische Stätten be- suchen zu können, in denen man die
Geister unserer verstorbenen gallo-römischen Vorfahren spüren kann. Unsere Erde ist voller Zeugnisse römischen Schaffens und römischer Kunst. Strengt Euch also an, Volksvertreter des Volkes der Nova Roma, eine Lösung für das Sprachproblem zu finden. Schließlich ist Europa - und somit auch die Provinz Germania - unzweifelhaft das ange-stammte Territorium des Imperium Romanum, und mit Verlaub gesagt,
nicht Amerika. Es sind gerade die Ab-
weichungen von der Norm, die das Leben so interessant machen. Daher, zur Abwechslung auch mal eine Mitteilung in
Deutscher Sprache - sozusagen als Pro-
test gegen die englischsprachliche Ver-
einheitlichung und zur Wahrung der
sprachlichen Vielfalt in unserer euro-
päischen Heimat und zur Erhaltung unserer wertvollen deutschen Sprache, welche vor nicht all zu langer Zeit die Sprache der Wissenschaft war und in manchen Bereichen auch heute noch ist. Ich stelle es Euch anheim, meinen Beitrag nach Euerem Gutdünken zu beurteilen und gegebenenfalls die entsprechenden Sanktionen zu treffen.

Das angestammte Territorium des Im-
perium Romanum ist nunmal Europa - und nicht Amerika. Und gerade deshalb sollte
man in der Nova Roma die anderen europäischen Sprachen nicht vernach-
lässigen.

Vale!

Caius Valerius Opilio

Provinz Germanien

VI. Januar des Jahres MMDCCLIV (ad urbe condita).

--

Spitzenhandy ein Jahr ohne Grundgebühr! Zahlen Sie zwölf Monate
keine und danach 9,95 DM für das Ericsson T10s inkl. Ledertasche
und portabler Freisprecheinrichtung.
Alles zum Weihnachtspreis von DM 0.- http://handy.freenet.de

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Amend the age limit law
From:	Piparskegg UllRsson <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Fri, 05 Jan 2001 18:39:42 -0600

Avete Omnes,

A comment and suggestion on the age limit issue.

I know it isn't popular to refer to such, but, most every macro-nation of consequence does limit
participation in elective office by limiting the age of obtaining the franchise to vote and in some
cases the ages of obtaining the privilege of running for office. Does this excise talented underage
people, of course.

To bring in a personal anecdote: I run the gun counter in a large sporting goods store. I have
some very accomplished hunters and non-hunting sportsmen who work for me. I know that some of my
young people have more knowledge and experience than many of my customers 2 or 3 times their age.
They get passed by due to their young faces and customers come to me because of the grey in the
muzzle. Fair, no.

Perhaps, in seeking legitimacy for our government and state from others beyond our nation, we need
to acknowledge this facet of human nature.
No matter how talented a, for example, 16 year old Tertius Vergillianus Genius may be, a 16 year old
Consul, Senator, Censor or such will likely be thought of lightly outside our community. Tertius
Vergillianus may, on the other hand, make the best Aedile or Quæstor Nova Roma has or ever will see
(much better than a 50 year old Quintus Inutilis).

Perhaps we should look at the magistracies and their potential for dealings with other nations, and
evaluate age limits in this light.

--
===========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis, Benedicte Omnes!
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Cives, Paterfamilias Gens Ulleria
My homestead
http://www.geocities.com/piparskegg/index.html
Nova Roma website
http://www.novaroma.org/main.html
Sodalis pro Coqueror et Coquus - Dominus Sodalis
http://www.egroups.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Amend the age limit law
From:	Val Kotas <valkat@-------->
Date:	Fri, 05 Jan 2001 17:54:13 -0800

Think about this perspective:

A young person physical age maybe 12, 14, or 17

A young person in character may have the role of a 35 year old.

I am a female; have exceptions been made to value or at least considered my
comments? Or do I have to express myself through the male head of my family?


--NEW CITIZEN,
Valeria Sempronia Lucilla




> From: Piparskegg UllRsson <catamount_grange@-------->
> Organization: Catamount Grange
> Reply-To: novaroma@--------
> Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 18:39:42 -0600
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: Amend the age limit law
>
> Avete Omnes,
>
> A comment and suggestion on the age limit issue.
>
> I know it isn't popular to refer to such, but, most every macro-nation of
> consequence does limit
> participation in elective office by limiting the age of obtaining the
> franchise to vote and in some
> cases the ages of obtaining the privilege of running for office. Does this
> excise talented underage
> people, of course.
>
> To bring in a personal anecdote: I run the gun counter in a large sporting
> goods store. I have
> some very accomplished hunters and non-hunting sportsmen who work for me. I
> know that some of my
> young people have more knowledge and experience than many of my customers 2 or
> 3 times their age.
> They get passed by due to their young faces and customers come to me because
> of the grey in the
> muzzle. Fair, no.
>
> Perhaps, in seeking legitimacy for our government and state from others beyond
> our nation, we need
> to acknowledge this facet of human nature.
> No matter how talented a, for example, 16 year old Tertius Vergillianus Genius
> may be, a 16 year old
> Consul, Senator, Censor or such will likely be thought of lightly outside our
> community. Tertius
> Vergillianus may, on the other hand, make the best Aedile or Quæstor Nova Roma
> has or ever will see
> (much better than a 50 year old Quintus Inutilis).
>
> Perhaps we should look at the magistracies and their potential for dealings
> with other nations, and
> evaluate age limits in this light.
>
> --
> ===========================================
> In Amicus sub Fidelis, Benedicte Omnes!
> - Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
> Cives, Paterfamilias Gens Ulleria
> My homestead
> http://www.geocities.com/piparskegg/index.html
> Nova Roma website
> http://www.novaroma.org/main.html
> Sodalis pro Coqueror et Coquus - Dominus Sodalis
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq
>
>
>
>

Subject:	[novaroma] State of the Province -America Boreoccidentalis and related topics<long>
From:	"Oppius Flaccus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 5 Jan 2001 18:32:39 -0800

Salve Omnes,

In one of my relatively few political-centric postings, I
feel it is necessary to post a 'state of the union' if you
will regarding my province. Two initial warnings: it is
somewhat long and not very pleasant. This is not intended
as a negative against Nova Roma in general, or any other
cives in particular. It is being sent as a unblushingly
honest statement of the province and with some suggestions
for remedying the current situation.

As mentioned in my previous post today, America Boreoccidentalis
is in an advanced state of decay and may or may not be salvageable
in its current state. (More on this later.) After beating my head
against a wall for the past few weeks trying to reach *anybody*
in the province, (excepting Procopious and Marcus Cornelius
Felix -see below) I had a phone conversation with the current
Legatus. (Marcus Cornelius Felix) The results of this conversation
were extremely discouraging to say the least and highlighted some
significant issues; particularly in the way that communications
are currently conducted within Nova Roma.

The conversation painted a bleak picture of both the past and
current state of the province. I had initiated the phone conversation
at the recommendation of Censor Sulla in response to my queries
regarding contact of other cives in my province. I will summarize
the provincial portion of the discussion as follows:

1-Marcus Cornelius doesn't possess the time, money or authority
to deal with provincial issues outside of the immediate
Portland, OR area.

2-Most of the cives in the province are well below the current
age limits for magistrates, as defined in the constitution. Additionally
there
are few known cives that have the financial or time availability
means to accomplish anything at the official levels.

3-The cives in the province subscribe to none of the main
Nova Roma lists, but apparently are active in informal
chat venues. There are a grand total of (2) subscribers
to our provincial mailing list.

4-Because current cives have no access to the e-mail addresses
of any other cives (excepting published addresses of
of magistrates, Pontiffs and those cives posting to one of
the public lists,) I had no reasonable hope of getting
in touch with any other cives in the province. I was further
told that I would have to become governor even to
gain access to e-mail addresses! (More on this later.)

5-Marcus Cornelius offered to announce the formation of
the America Boreoccidentalis e-groups list, if and only
if he could be added to the list transparently. (Without
going through the manual e-groups 'join' process.) As
I am not the list owner, the best I could do was pass
this request on to the cive in charge of that list,
whom has seemed to disappear.

6-The only hope out of this predicament is for someone
to step forward, become the sanctioned governor and
do some massive reorganization.

Further, I've been told that I can't join a more
'happening' province, as I don't physically reside there. Currently,
there are *three* cives in America Boreoccidentalis listed
as residing in New York, and one listed as living in
VA! A Censor stated that this was being changed, but in the
meantime I was out of luck other than perhaps joining
the mailing lists of other provinces. (A possible
thought actually.

I do agree that a strong governor is possibly the *only* way
that anything will ever happen here. I have expressed
a willingness to at least consider it, but still have yet
to receive the information on the governorship that I was promised
several days ago. It still seems a bit extreme though to
have to become a governor JUST to communicate with other
provincial cives.

My several week ordeal with the issues above, has come to a close.
Either we can come together with some solutions to alleviate this
situation, or personally I'll just have to give up on it entirely
and hope that some of the proposed national events such as 'Rubicon'
come to fruition. I also want to address some of the above and related
issues more fully:

1-Personally, I think that all cives should have the right to
contact one another via e-mail. NOTE that I'm not at all suggesting
that we post everyone's address on the main page which is public,
or that we are given any information beyond a citizen's full
Roman name and an e-mail address for contact. My suggestion is that
e-mail addresses for citizens become available AFTER a citizenship
application has been approved. Once someone is verified and approved,
then they are provided with a username and password to access
possibly a secured area of the Album Gentium which lists the known
e-mail addresses for each cive.

2-Citizenship applications should include a phone call to the prospective
candidate to validate the phone number, that they are who they say
they are. This will also help validate that cives are matched to phone
numbers, matched to addresses implying the basic capabilities to
maintain citizenship in NR. Additionally, the citizen's e-mail
address should be tested with a required response for further
validation. In short, citizenship has to become more meaningful
and worthy of our great nation.

3-Institute minimum 'property' qualifications for elected AND appointed
magistrates. Let me be clear what is meant here: what I mean by
'property qualifications' is that a cive have the time and the
*physical means* of carrying out their elected or appointed duty.
By this, the individual should possess a phone for instance. (With the
capability of being able to make long distance calls when needed.) The
individual should have X amount of time per day, week, month,
whatever to carry out their duties. The individual should have full
access to a computer, *whether or not* they actually own one or not.
(Churches, libraries, community colleges, NFP groups, etc. all can
provide some level of computer access to those without.

4-To expound upon some recent posts proposing group-level organization;
and in particularly to something that Formosanus eloquently stated
earlier today: The Internet and its related communications mechanisms
are inherently prone to misinterpretation. While the organization and
structure of our great nation dictates a large degree of electronic
communication, it is only a one-dimensional channel at best and MUST
be augmented with good ol' physical interaction and communication.
This includes both phone contact and physical gatherings at local/
provincial/national levels. We need to know one another and must
be able to put faces and personalities with the plethora of electronic
content swirling around. Having access to the mail addresses
of cives can facilitate such gatherings. Another inherent weakness of
electronic
communications is that it makes it extremely easy to delete
undesirable communications, ignore them entirely or state that
they were never received. I think we've probably all been guilty
of that at one time or another, certainly including myself.

5-I propose that a chat be established in the coming days or weeks
with all interested parties to come up with some creative solutions
to the provincial and communications issues.

Well, thank you for sticking with this post to the end. As I finish
these final few lines, I have just heard back from Lucius Mauricius
Procopious
who has been out with a family situation, but will be back in a few days
or weeks. My best wishes to him and his wife. Maybe between us and any other
interested cives, we can get the province on more stable footing.

Vale bene,
-Oppius Flaccus Severus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] State of the Province -America Boreoccidentalis and related topics<long>
From:	gmvick32@--------
Date:	Fri, 05 Jan 2001 20:07:16 -0700

Salve, Oppius Flaccus:

I am sorry to hear things are looking so bleak in your province. For what it's
worth, I have been in a similarly frustrated position myself. I, too, was told
the only way to get provincial e-mails was to become governor....it's one of the
things that drove me on to do so, given that I'm strongly interested in local
meetings, and after about 2 months have yet to see the promised e-mail
addresses. Despite that, we are making headway here.

For what it's worth, I agree with you. It's got to be easier to locate other
cives than it presently is. I think the current state of affairs re email
availability is discouraging to community.

I think you're touching on some very valid points which need to be taken up for
consideration. One thing I am doing is forwarding this on to the Limes
Cooperation, which is where provincial propraetors who have joined can discuss
common approaches to provincial issues.

I would encourage you NOT to give it all up for lost. If it would help, please
consider yourself a "member in spirit, if not fact", of my province, America
Austroccidentalis (we are just a bit east and south of you). Please feel free to
contact me at any time with any issues as though *I* were your propraetrix, and
I will do my best to assist you however I can.

Salve,
Livia Cornelia Aurelia
Propraetrix, Am. Austroccidentalis



Oppius Flaccus wrote:

> Salve Omnes,
>
> In one of my relatively few political-centric postings, I
> feel it is necessary to post a 'state of the union' if you
> will regarding my province. Two initial warnings: it is
> somewhat long and not very pleasant. This is not intended
> as a negative against Nova Roma in general, or any other
> cives in particular. It is being sent as a unblushingly
> honest statement of the province and with some suggestions
> for remedying the current situation.
>
> As mentioned in my previous post today, America Boreoccidentalis
> is in an advanced state of decay and may or may not be salvageable
> in its current state. (More on this later.) After beating my head
> against a wall for the past few weeks trying to reach *anybody*
> in the province, (excepting Procopious and Marcus Cornelius
> Felix -see below) I had a phone conversation with the current
> Legatus. (Marcus Cornelius Felix) The results of this conversation
> were extremely discouraging to say the least and highlighted some
> significant issues; particularly in the way that communications
> are currently conducted within Nova Roma.
>
> The conversation painted a bleak picture of both the past and
> current state of the province. I had initiated the phone conversation
> at the recommendation of Censor Sulla in response to my queries
> regarding contact of other cives in my province. I will summarize
> the provincial portion of the discussion as follows:
>
> 1-Marcus Cornelius doesn't possess the time, money or authority
> to deal with provincial issues outside of the immediate
> Portland, OR area.
>
> 2-Most of the cives in the province are well below the current
> age limits for magistrates, as defined in the constitution. Additionally
> there
> are few known cives that have the financial or time availability
> means to accomplish anything at the official levels.
>
> 3-The cives in the province subscribe to none of the main
> Nova Roma lists, but apparently are active in informal
> chat venues. There are a grand total of (2) subscribers
> to our provincial mailing list.
>
> 4-Because current cives have no access to the e-mail addresses
> of any other cives (excepting published addresses of
> of magistrates, Pontiffs and those cives posting to one of
> the public lists,) I had no reasonable hope of getting
> in touch with any other cives in the province. I was further
> told that I would have to become governor even to
> gain access to e-mail addresses! (More on this later.)
>
> 5-Marcus Cornelius offered to announce the formation of
> the America Boreoccidentalis e-groups list, if and only
> if he could be added to the list transparently. (Without
> going through the manual e-groups 'join' process.) As
> I am not the list owner, the best I could do was pass
> this request on to the cive in charge of that list,
> whom has seemed to disappear.
>
> 6-The only hope out of this predicament is for someone
> to step forward, become the sanctioned governor and
> do some massive reorganization.
>
> Further, I've been told that I can't join a more
> 'happening' province, as I don't physically reside there. Currently,
> there are *three* cives in America Boreoccidentalis listed
> as residing in New York, and one listed as living in
> VA! A Censor stated that this was being changed, but in the
> meantime I was out of luck other than perhaps joining
> the mailing lists of other provinces. (A possible
> thought actually.
>
> I do agree that a strong governor is possibly the *only* way
> that anything will ever happen here. I have expressed
> a willingness to at least consider it, but still have yet
> to receive the information on the governorship that I was promised
> several days ago. It still seems a bit extreme though to
> have to become a governor JUST to communicate with other
> provincial cives.
>
> My several week ordeal with the issues above, has come to a close.
> Either we can come together with some solutions to alleviate this
> situation, or personally I'll just have to give up on it entirely
> and hope that some of the proposed national events such as 'Rubicon'
> come to fruition. I also want to address some of the above and related
> issues more fully:
>
> 1-Personally, I think that all cives should have the right to
> contact one another via e-mail. NOTE that I'm not at all suggesting
> that we post everyone's address on the main page which is public,
> or that we are given any information beyond a citizen's full
> Roman name and an e-mail address for contact. My suggestion is that
> e-mail addresses for citizens become available AFTER a citizenship
> application has been approved. Once someone is verified and approved,
> then they are provided with a username and password to access
> possibly a secured area of the Album Gentium which lists the known
> e-mail addresses for each cive.
>
> 2-Citizenship applications should include a phone call to the prospective
> candidate to validate the phone number, that they are who they say
> they are. This will also help validate that cives are matched to phone
> numbers, matched to addresses implying the basic capabilities to
> maintain citizenship in NR. Additionally, the citizen's e-mail
> address should be tested with a required response for further
> validation. In short, citizenship has to become more meaningful
> and worthy of our great nation.
>
> 3-Institute minimum 'property' qualifications for elected AND appointed
> magistrates. Let me be clear what is meant here: what I mean by
> 'property qualifications' is that a cive have the time and the
> *physical means* of carrying out their elected or appointed duty.
> By this, the individual should possess a phone for instance. (With the
> capability of being able to make long distance calls when needed.) The
> individual should have X amount of time per day, week, month,
> whatever to carry out their duties. The individual should have full
> access to a computer, *whether or not* they actually own one or not.
> (Churches, libraries, community colleges, NFP groups, etc. all can
> provide some level of computer access to those without.
>
> 4-To expound upon some recent posts proposing group-level organization;
> and in particularly to something that Formosanus eloquently stated
> earlier today: The Internet and its related communications mechanisms
> are inherently prone to misinterpretation. While the organization and
> structure of our great nation dictates a large degree of electronic
> communication, it is only a one-dimensional channel at best and MUST
> be augmented with good ol' physical interaction and communication.
> This includes both phone contact and physical gatherings at local/
> provincial/national levels. We need to know one another and must
> be able to put faces and personalities with the plethora of electronic
> content swirling around. Having access to the mail addresses
> of cives can facilitate such gatherings. Another inherent weakness of
> electronic
> communications is that it makes it extremely easy to delete
> undesirable communications, ignore them entirely or state that
> they were never received. I think we've probably all been guilty
> of that at one time or another, certainly including myself.
>
> 5-I propose that a chat be established in the coming days or weeks
> with all interested parties to come up with some creative solutions
> to the provincial and communications issues.
>
> Well, thank you for sticking with this post to the end. As I finish
> these final few lines, I have just heard back from Lucius Mauricius
> Procopious
> who has been out with a family situation, but will be back in a few days
> or weeks. My best wishes to him and his wife. Maybe between us and any other
> interested cives, we can get the province on more stable footing.
>
> Vale bene,
> -Oppius Flaccus Severus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Uncontested elections
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Fri, 5 Jan 2001 22:31:49 -0800 (PST)

Salvete!

--- Flavius Vedius Germanicus
<germanicus@--------> wrote:

> One of the weaknesses of our current election
> process which was pointed up
> in our most recent elections, is the possibility
> that a candidate for office
> who is running unopposed might still not win,
> because he or she fails to
> gain a majority of a tribe or century. In our last
> elections, this happened
> to several candidates for Quaestor.
>
> I would like to propose a new law to the effect that
> individuals who have
> announced themseves as candidates for office, for
> which there is no contest
> after a given period of time, may assume office
> without the necessity of
> undergoing a formal election (assuming they pass all
> the other
> qualifications). This only makes sense to me, as
> going through the election
> process is somewhat arduous for the magistrates
> involved, and it seems
> wasteful to go through it when the outcome is
> literally known at the outset.

Although I esteem you greatly for your leadership and
wisdom, I do not agree with your proposal. I do not
feel that a candidate should be elected merely for
placing their name in the running. I also disagree
that it is a weakness in our system that two
candidates for the quaestership were not elected.

Your first and second paragraphs contradict each
other. There is no absolute guarantee of victory in
our elections. In order to win, the candidate must
sway either ONE century or ONE tribe (depending on the
office sought). Two candidates for quaester did not
do that and were not elected*.

I would also submit to you that if the "the election
process is somewhat arduous for the magistrates
involved", they will find the offices they earn even
more arduous. If they are not up to the election,
they are certainly not up to the job. I cannot
believe that the election process will keep people
from running for office...in fact, in another debate
we're having right now, we're asking whether why
teenagers can't run for office. (This does not mean
that our electoral debates are not overly bitter and
personal, but it seems office-holding in NovaRoma
subjects one to this, as well.)

[*I want to repeat what I have said before...I bear no
ill will to those who were not elected to the
quaestership, I salute them for setting an example for
us by running for office, and wish them the best.]

> If this does sound agreeable to the People, I have
> two questions that go
> along with it. First, how long should the waiting
> period be after someone
> stands for a vacant office, for someone else to
> contest that office (I would
> suggest either thirty days or the passing of two
> market days)?

This is an interesting point, related to one of mine.
As rogator in the last election, I was surprised to
learn that there was no cut-off date to announce one's
candidacy. I would like to an ending of announcing of
candidacies simultaneous with the beginning of voting.
Should your proposal pass, this should also be the
time for that.

> And second, should such a law be made retroactive to
> the last magisterial
> election (which would, in effect, allow all of
> December's candidates for
> Quaestor to assume office, even those who failed to
> win a tribe)?

I hope not. An election was held, fairly and in
compliance with our Constitution. It is not right to
make laws retroactive to change that election. This
will put us on the slippery slope to tyranny (if we
can change the results of one election ex post facto,
we can change the results of others when the results
don't appeal to us).

> If we reach a consensus, I could foresee calling
> this issue to a vote this
> month (but naturally there is no rush; we should
> take all the time we need
> to talk such things through).

I hope you will accept my comments, which are intended
in a constructive way, and that the debate will be
joined by others who can provide comment.

Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus

=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." --Jean Rostand

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Reconciliations
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Fri, 5 Jan 2001 23:14:34 -0800 (PST)

Salve!

--- "M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> wrote:

> I think that the discussion of Vado has made very
> clear how
> unacceptible it is to try to impose military-style
> thinking on a
> civil society.

What repulses you about the military? Perhaps the
face-to-face meetings are a good idea, so you can see
that military people are civil, too.

Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus

=====
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HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Amend the age limit law (was Re: Draco's Candidacy)
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Fri, 5 Jan 2001 23:38:49 -0800 (PST)

Salve!

--- "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
wrote:
> As requested, here are the full details... The old
> lex as well as my new
> amended model.

An excellent proposal. It does not (at least I didn't
see it) allow for exceptions. Do you feel there
should be any? I have no problem with exceptions
(waivers), so long as they are requested and cleared
by the Senate, and that fact published on the main
list (which serves as an official record for us) prior
to the election.

Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus



=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." --Jean Rostand

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Local Groups (long)
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 00:46:29 -0800 (PST)

Salvete!

Flavius Vedius Germanicus <germanicus@-------->
wrote:

> One of the ideas that I've been discussing recently
> in the chat room with
> various Cives has been the establishment of local
> groups of Nova Roman
> citizens to hold regular real-world gatherings. As
> it stands, all of our
> provincia are too large to easily accomodate
> face-to-face meetings, which is
> the direction in which I believe our future lies.

I'm a SCAdian, and I admit that I have found it
frustrating not to meet face-to-face with my NovaRoman
brethren. Sufficiently frustrated that I recommended
the aediles be put in charge of organizing a structure
for periodic events.

I also support the idea of routine local gatherings.

Someone, no doubt, is thinking "there are not enough
of us". Well, in some places there aren't, but it
won't get better by wringing our hands and hoping
someone else will show up. The best way to recruit is
to get organized, establish a meeting time and place,
and announce it.

> - What relationship would such local groups have
> with the Provincial or
> Central governments? Who would issue their charter?
> Who would appoint their
> leaders (or would their leaders be self-appointed,
> and if so what level of
> oversight would there be)?

The provincial governments are the "higher HQ", and
should be able to assist local groups. They should
also charter them (in some form). I can't see a role
for the central government. Local leaders should be
determined locally, and overseen by the praetor or
legate.

> - What form would such local groups' organization
> take? Would there be a
> single model to follow, a choice of several
> different models, or be
> completely free-form?

I recommend a fairly uniform set-up, to provide
continuity for people who move from place to place,
and to make oversight and assistance from above
easier.

> - Should local groups be sponsored by an
> already-existing local group who
> would act as a mentoring group until the group was
> big enough/old
> enough/etc.? What if a group wanted to form in an
> area where there already
> was a group? What if a group splits up due to
> internal pressures?

Let's wait on this one. There are too few existing
local organizations. One idea we can copy from the
SCA is organizing by ZIP/postal codes. That will
prohibit several groups from existing in the same
place. I would hope the legate/praetor would step in
before a group split in two from internal politics.
In the end, we may wind up with (gasp!) a GOVERNMENT.

> - Should the existing system of Legati be
> incorporated into such local
> groups, or should they remain as a level of
> organization between the local
> groups and the provincial governors?

Use the legates, where they exist.

> - What sort of nomenclature would be used for local
> groups? Would such
> nomenclature change depending on group size or legal
> status (as in the SCA,
> a canton becomes a barony when it has enough people,
> or in SFI a shuttle
> becomes a ship)? (Some choices include municipia,
> pagus, vicus, villa, etc.)

My first thought was Urbis, but probably that would
better for a larger group. A committee could work
this out.

> - What sort of names would local groups be allowed
> (or required) to have?
> Something based on local geography? Something
> completely made-up?

Latin, but determined locally and approved by the
Senate.

> - What minimum size and/or level of activity would
> be expected for such a
> local group? What happens if a group hasn't had a
> meeting in 6 months?

It's hard to run a group without 5
participants...that's why the SCA sets that as the
bottom line. Quarterly meetings, at least, should be
required. Oversight would then prohibit a 6-month
gap.

> - Should provincial, regional, and international
> meetings (such as my
> proposed RubiCon) be "farmed out" to the local
> groups?

Yes, but not yet. Let them get their feet on the
ground first.

> - Should magistrates (or priests!) at any given
> level (either provincial or
> national) be mandated to belong to and/or in charge
> of a local group?

No. The Consuls of Rome were not also village mayors.

> - What sorts of assistance can (or should) the
> central and/or provincial
> government give to new local groups just starting
> out, not only in terms of
> publicity; but practical knowledge of recruitment,
> fundraising, increasing
> visibility; plus material assistance in the form of
> hardcopy materials, web
> site space (and design assistance?), and even seed
> money?

All of the above, except seed money. First of all,
our budget is tight, too. Second, other groups get by
on having this donated.

It's clear you (and others) have put some thought into
this, and I salute you for it. I hope you are
successful.

Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus

=====
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HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

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Subject:	[novaroma] Local Groups - Germania
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 00:49:13 -0800 (PST)

Salvete!

It has been suggested that local groups be formed
within NovaRoma.

I live in Heidelberg, in the Province of Germania. Is
there anyone within driving distance who is interested
in joining me in a local group? Either a local one,
or one based on the Land Baden-Wuerttemberg? If there
is sufficient interest, I am willing to host a
meeting.

Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus



=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
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APO AE 09063-2839

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Sprachprobleme in der Nova Roma
From:	"Marc " <RexMarcius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 06 Jan 2001 09:10:24 -0000

Salve Citizen Gaie Valerie!

I will do something here, which has always been the custom in
provincia Germania, namely a bilingual post. In a worldwide
micronation the use of a "lingua franca" is a mere necessity. Do not
forget, Latin also used to be the lingua franca in Europe once!

You are not breaking any law by using German as you imply (in the pre
Civil War period I believe there really was a law, but not now), but
you will not reach a lot of people with your message.

Nova Roma is tackling the language problem on the provincial level.
If you go to the provincia Germania Web-Site you will notice that
everything is written in German and English (and sometimes Latin).
One of our projects is a monthly newsletter in German about
happenings in the res publica, to make it possible for non English
speakers to be informed. Also your provincial magistrates will gladly
help you out with any language problem. That is what we are here for!

So please visit www.novaroma.de and see what we already have done for
you!

Ich werde hier etwas tun, was in der Provinz Germania immer schon
Sitte war, nämlich eine zweisprachige Mitteilung. In einer weltweiten
Mikronation ist die Verwendung einer "lingua franca" eine bloße
Notwendigkeit. Vergiß nicht, Latein war in Europa auch einmal die
"lingua franca"!

Du brichst mit der Verwendung von Deutsch, wie Du das andeutest, kein
Gesetz (in der Vor-Bürgerkriegsperiode gab es, glaube ich, ein
Gesetz, aber nicht jetzt), aber Du wirst nicht sehr viele Leute mit
Deiner Nachricht erreichen.

Nova Roma geht das Sprachenproblem auf der Provinzebene an. Wenn Du
zur Provincia Germania Web-Site gehst, wirst Du bemerken, dass alles
in Deutsch und Englisch geschrieben ist (und manchmal in Latein).
Eines unserer Projekte ist ein monatlicher newletter in Deutsch über
Vorkommnisse in der Republik, um es für nicht des Englischen
Mächtige möglich zu machen informiert zu bleiben. Ausserdem werden
Dir die Provinzmagistrate bei jedem Sprachproblem gerne aushelfen.
Dafür sind wir da!

Also bitte besuche www.novaroma.de und sieh, was wir schon alles für
Dich getan haben!

Ave et Vale

Marcus Marcius Rex
Propraetor Germaniae
Senator
Praetorial Scriba


--- In novaroma@--------, "Herr Schäfer" <schaefer.paxromana@f...>
wrote:
> Caution - infringement of the law!!!!!
>
> Salve Citizens of the Nova Roma, Salve
> Senator Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix,
>
> Salve Bürger der Nova Roma, Salve Sena-
> tor Lucius Cornelius Sulla,
>
> die Wahlen in der Nova Roma sind mitt-
> lerweile Geschichte. Im Vorfeld dieser
> wichtigen Wahlen wurden viele Versprech-
> ungen gemacht. Soweit es mir möglich war, Euere unzähligen, in der
eng-lischen Sprache verfaßten Wahlver-sprechungen zu entziffern, war
das Sprachproblem in der Nova Roma ein "angeblich" wichtiges Thema.
Leider ist davon heute in Eueren Mitteilungen nichts mehr zu lesen.
Wertvolle In-formationen, Fragen und Ausführungen sind für viele
Bürger der Nova Roma, vor allem in den europäischen
> Provinzen, nicht nachvollziehbar, weil
> es hier eben mehr Sprachen gibt, als nur
> die Englische. Wieviele Bürger können
> ihr wertvolles kontinental-europäisches Wissen über die römische
Geschichte den anderen Bürgern der Nova Roma nicht mitteilen,
wieviele Fragen können nicht gestellt werden? Ich gebe zu bedenken,
daß gerade die europäischen Bürger der Nova Roma mehr
Berührungspunkte mit der glorreichen Geschichte des römischen
Imperiums haben, als anderswo. In unseren europäischen Ländern
befinden sich die römischen Stätten, Villen, Bauwerke und Tempel.
Hier ist Rom allgegenwärtig. Was haben dagegen, mit Verlaub, die
amerikanischen Provinzen vorzuweisen?
> (dieser Satz führt wahrscheinlich zur
> Ausbürgerung aus der Nova Roma).
> Also, liebe Vertreter des Volkes der
> Nova Roma, laßt Euch etwas einfallen,
> damit auch die nicht englischsprachigen
> Bürger Europas an dem Geschehen in der
> Nova Roma teilhaben können! Bei uns in
> Europa ist das Erbe des Imperium Romanum
> allgegenwärtig. Ich selbst brauche in
> meiner saarländischen Heimat nicht weit
> zur reisen, um römische Stätten be- suchen zu können, in denen man
die
> Geister unserer verstorbenen gallo-römischen Vorfahren spüren kann.
Unsere Erde ist voller Zeugnisse römischen Schaffens und römischer
Kunst. Strengt Euch also an, Volksvertreter des Volkes der Nova Roma,
eine Lösung für das Sprachproblem zu finden. Schließlich ist Europa -
und somit auch die Provinz Germania - unzweifelhaft das ange-stammte
Territorium des Imperium Romanum, und mit Verlaub gesagt,
> nicht Amerika. Es sind gerade die Ab-
> weichungen von der Norm, die das Leben so interessant machen.
Daher, zur Abwechslung auch mal eine Mitteilung in
> Deutscher Sprache - sozusagen als Pro-
> test gegen die englischsprachliche Ver-
> einheitlichung und zur Wahrung der
> sprachlichen Vielfalt in unserer euro-
> päischen Heimat und zur Erhaltung unserer wertvollen deutschen
Sprache, welche vor nicht all zu langer Zeit die Sprache der
Wissenschaft war und in manchen Bereichen auch heute noch ist. Ich
stelle es Euch anheim, meinen Beitrag nach Euerem Gutdünken zu
beurteilen und gegebenenfalls die entsprechenden Sanktionen zu
treffen.
>
> Das angestammte Territorium des Im-
> perium Romanum ist nunmal Europa - und nicht Amerika. Und gerade
deshalb sollte
> man in der Nova Roma die anderen europäischen Sprachen nicht
vernach-
> lässigen.
>
> Vale!
>
> Caius Valerius Opilio
>
> Provinz Germanien
>
> VI. Januar des Jahres MMDCCLIV (ad urbe condita).
>
> --
>
> Spitzenhandy ein Jahr ohne Grundgebühr! Zahlen Sie zwölf Monate
> keine und danach 9,95 DM für das Ericsson T10s inkl. Ledertasche
> und portabler Freisprecheinrichtung.
> Alles zum Weihnachtspreis von DM 0.- http://handy.freenet.de

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] State of the Province -America Boreoccidentalis and related topics<long>
From:	"Jeroen Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 12:20:27 +0100

Salvete Oppi Flacce et Livia Cornelia,

I think the analysis of Oppius Flaccus is saddening, but all too true. It's
an illness that affects many provinciae here in Nova Roma, including Gallia.
Although we cannot complain too hard, because at least we have an active
administracy, the rest of our citizens remains fast asleep. This is indeed
discouraging, and I agree whole-heartedly with the solutions presented.
Another factor is also, I think, how we can make Nova Roma attractive on a
provincial level? I don't really have a solution thought out for this,
because I'm not planning on paying for huge tv commercials ;-). But,
seriously, I think a similar problem also affects smaller Sodalitates and
lists that are NR-related. How could this be solved?

Valete!
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Scriba Aedilis Plebis
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
--**--
Novaromain? Parlez-vous français? Cliquez ici!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_GalliaBelgicaF
Nieuwromein? Spreekt u Nederlands? Klik hier!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_BelgicaBataviaD
Novaroman? Interested in philosophy? Click here!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_Philosophy
Novaroman? Interested in politics? Click here!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_DignitasForum

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Amend the age limit law
From:	"Jeroen Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 12:24:34 +0100

Salve Luci Aeti,

> --- "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
> wrote:
> > As requested, here are the full details... The old
> > lex as well as my new
> > amended model.
>
> An excellent proposal. It does not (at least I didn't
> see it) allow for exceptions. Do you feel there
> should be any? I have no problem with exceptions
> (waivers), so long as they are requested and cleared
> by the Senate, and that fact published on the main
> list (which serves as an official record for us) prior
> to the election.

Requested by the Senate? They should be requested by the applicant, imo. I
did build in the possibility of an exemption in my amendment, but the
applicant should first contact the Senate, to avoid all confusion. Hope this
explains a little.

Vale bene,
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Scriba Aedilis Plebis
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
--**--
Novaromain? Parlez-vous français? Cliquez ici!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_GalliaBelgicaF
Nieuwromein? Spreekt u Nederlands? Klik hier!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_BelgicaBataviaD
Novaroman? Interested in philosophy? Click here!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_Philosophy
Novaroman? Interested in politics? Click here!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_DignitasForum

Subject:	[novaroma] Age-Law Amendment
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 06:44:03 -0500 (EST)

Salvete, Nova Roma Citizens;

In my view the subject law should be left alone. The purpose of the law
was well defined when it was passed, and has not changed it's purpose,
in my view one, small whit, since it's passage.

The micronation is now considering a change in ths law, because
essentially there has appeared on the horizon a brilliant young man,
perhaps mature beyond his years, and active in the areas of NR where
permitted. I can and do appreciate that, and I applaud his efforts,
both to him personnally, and to those who support him.

However, the desires of this young man must be wieghed against the
reasons the law was passed originally, and that was to limit those
people who were not so brilliant, mature, and active from representing
the people of Nova Roma poorly or improperly.

In addition, my good friend Venator has the right of it when he says
that the world over, similar laws are in effect for good purpose and
with good result, as recognized by the people of the world in general.
Gone are the days when children (below the age of 18) stood at the side
of the room while thier parents ate thier supper and the meal leavings
were given to the children. Gone are the days of child labor in
dangerous occupations, or the indenture of children into work-places.
We now have institutions which educate the young and encourage them to
use and flex thier minds and skills--but always under the supervision of
those who have attained a mature age and significant life experience.
Nova Roma does the same, and there are lierally dozens of areas where
gifted young people may contribute thier ideas, and abilities.

There is already a feature in our laws which provides for an exemption
to this under-age situation and admittedly it is a difficult one to
surmount, but should it be otherwise?? I don't think so, if the
original law is to have any meaning at all. Young Draco applied for the
exemption, and it was denied him under the law. Unfortunate for
him--Yes; Unfortunate for the micronation--Not necessarily. This
micro-nation provides many areas in which a young man or young woman can
flex thier abilities and be a force to reckon with, at thier age,
without a change in the law. Young Draco is a good example of that
himself in his work as a Legate Civicum, and in his oganizational skills
at the Provincial Level. It has been rightly said that in the coming
years the organization and the tasks of the central goverment must be
regulated in some degree to the Provinces, and I agree with that idea.
We have already heard just recently from a Propraetor who is disparing
of his province. Why not use our young Draco's expertise to assist in
that area under the supervision of the Provincial ProPraetor. Why must
we amend our laws on personal whim, when so much needs to be done at a
level where people of this age-limitation can be of good service without
such amending. If in fact the thrust here is service to NR, then there
is much service to be achieved right here, and the Provinces are
certainly the place to start.

A second point, is that when I began my involvement in the government it
was as a accensus to the Consul, and later as the lowest level
Magistate. Am I interested in financial details, not particularly --
but that was where the effort was needed. I did not proceed onward
until strongly encouraged by several friends that I shoud do so. My
intention has never been to do other than service, as service was
required, even though my age was and is, such that no-one could complain
about my youth (Grin).

My recommendation is to leave the Age Law alone except to make it
clearer when an examption can be applied for. In another venue, I see
no reason for the Consuls to be burdened with the requirement to insure
that such exemption requests are completed, The Consuls and Censos have
enough to do already without seeing to special privaledges for special
individuals.

I am fully aware that my views in this matter are unpopular to the
younger set, but I remind you that I have been that age once myself, and
I do not regret those age-limitations placed upon my exuberance in those
days, in the least for a variety of reasons. In the years to come, as
Nova Roma expands her horizons, and attracts more and more people, those
who are representatives of those people will be called upon in
ever-increasing degrees to be able to register mature judgements, and
decisions based in large part on life experience as well as new ideas.
In my view a distinct balance should be maintained, by keeping the
Maturity in place and the New Ideas within reach. That will take much
creative thinking, and will require the patience and creativity of all
our citizens to bring about. But, if we are successful in our endeavors
we will have the best of both worlds, and will have accomplished
something that very few, if any, other institutions have accomplished,
and most importantly will provide the best of both worlds for Nova Roma.

In my view, that is a goal well worth striving for, and one to which I
can pledge my complete support.

Valete, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens


Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Amend the age limit law
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 03:46:13 -0800 (PST)

--- Jeroen Meuleman <hendrik.meuleman@--------> wrote:

> Requested by the Senate? They should be requested by
> the applicant, imo. I
> did build in the possibility of an exemption in my
> amendment, but the
> applicant should first contact the Senate, to avoid
> all confusion. Hope this
> explains a little.


Oops...should have been "approved by the Senate".

Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus

=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." --Jean Rostand

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] State of the Province -America Boreoccidentalis and related topics<long>
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 04:08:06 -0800 (PST)

Salve!

This is, indeed, a sad state of affairs. I think you
have a good plan, and I hope you will become governor
to right these wrongs. However, there are changes to
be made that cover more than one province.

> 1-Personally, I think that all cives should have the
> right to
> contact one another via e-mail. NOTE that I'm not
> at all suggesting
> that we post everyone's address on the main page
> which is public,
> or that we are given any information beyond a
> citizen's full
> Roman name and an e-mail address for contact. My
> suggestion is that
> e-mail addresses for citizens become available
> AFTER a citizenship
> application has been approved. Once someone is
> verified and approved,
> then they are provided with a username and
> password to access
> possibly a secured area of the Album Gentium which
> lists the known
> e-mail addresses for each cive.

I agree with this. The egroups site has an option
wherein all of us can be given access to every other
participants email address. It is voluntary (i.e.,
you do not need to participate to receive and post
emails).

> 2-Citizenship applications should include a phone
> call to the prospective
> candidate to validate the phone number, that they
> are who they say
> they are. This will also help validate that cives
> are matched to phone
> numbers, matched to addresses implying the basic
> capabilities to
> maintain citizenship in NR. Additionally, the
> citizen's e-mail
> address should be tested with a required response
> for further
> validation. In short, citizenship has to become
> more meaningful
> and worthy of our great nation.

Do you suspect that some of these people do not exist?
That seems to be what you're saying. A major part of
my job is being able to get in contact with people
immediately. It's impossible -- and I don't deal with
600+ people.

Your last sentence says it all. I'm not sure that all
of our 600+ citizens will agree.

> 3-Institute minimum 'property' qualifications for
> elected AND appointed
> magistrates. Let me be clear what is meant here:
> what I mean by
> 'property qualifications' is that a cive have the
> time and the
> *physical means* of carrying out their elected or
> appointed duty.
> By this, the individual should possess a phone for
> instance. (With the
> capability of being able to make long distance
> calls when needed.) The
> individual should have X amount of time per day,
> week, month,
> whatever to carry out their duties. The individual
> should have full
> access to a computer, *whether or not* they
> actually own one or not.
> (Churches, libraries, community colleges, NFP
> groups, etc. all can
> provide some level of computer access to those
> without.

Adding a line to the oath of office should do this.

> 4-To expound upon some recent posts proposing
> group-level organization;
> and in particularly to something that Formosanus
> eloquently stated
> earlier today: The Internet and its related
> communications mechanisms
> are inherently prone to misinterpretation. While
> the organization and
> structure of our great nation dictates a large
> degree of electronic
> communication, it is only a one-dimensional
> channel at best and MUST
> be augmented with good ol' physical interaction
> and communication.
> This includes both phone contact and physical
> gatherings at local/
> provincial/national levels. We need to know one
> another and must
> be able to put faces and personalities with the
> plethora of electronic
> content swirling around. Having access to the mail
> addresses
> of cives can facilitate such gatherings. Another
> inherent weakness of
> electronic
> communications is that it makes it extremely easy
> to delete
> undesirable communications, ignore them entirely
> or state that
> they were never received. I think we've probably
> all been guilty
> of that at one time or another, certainly
> including myself.

I take it, then, that you are in support of
face-to-face meetings.

> 5-I propose that a chat be established in the coming
> days or weeks
> with all interested parties to come up with some
> creative solutions
> to the provincial and communications issues.

Good idea. If it's at a reasonable time, I'll
participate.

I would advocate a "novaroma governors" email address,
so praetors and propraetors, etc., can share info.

Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus


=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." --Jean Rostand

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Age-Law Amendment
From:	"Jeroen Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 13:06:38 +0100

Salvete Quirites Novae Romae et Quaestor Audens,

I'd only like to make one small remark. I haven't made this amendment solely
to further my own purposes. As everyone is well aware, I'm not 18, so even
my own amendment wouldn't apply to me! That said, I think I'm also not the
only "whelp" here who has experienced some problems in regard of that Lex.
As examples one of our newest Rogators, Curio, is an opponent of this lex,
as is my frater Quintus. It would be indeed a little silly to make all this
fuss about a problem that only applies for one person, but I don't think
this is the case.

Cura ut valeas optime!
Draco

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] State of the Province -America Boreoccidentalis and related topics<long>
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 06 Jan 2001 03:09:25 -0800

Ave,

My comments are listed below. This post is going to be VERY Long but hopefully
fairly detailed:

Oppius Flaccus wrote:

> As mentioned in my previous post today, America Boreoccidentalis
> is in an advanced state of decay and may or may not be salvageable
> in its current state. (More on this later.) After beating my head
> against a wall for the past few weeks trying to reach *anybody*
> in the province, (excepting Procopious and Marcus Cornelius
> Felix -see below) I had a phone conversation with the current
> Legatus. (Marcus Cornelius Felix) The results of this conversation
> were extremely discouraging to say the least and highlighted some
> significant issues; particularly in the way that communications
> are currently conducted within Nova Roma.
>

Its a shame that your province is in such straights. Your Governor has
disappeared. About 4-5 months ago he reapplied for citizenship stating he
resigned earlier. As Censor, I checked my emails (yes I save them all) and I
never found anything that showed he resigned his citizenship, governorship or
anything. My colleague at the time, C. Marius Merullus also checked his
information. I then notified his Paterfamilias, Decius Iunius Palladius
Invictus regarding this situation. This was all done by October, I believe.
The end result was that we did not accept his new application. With that
decision, he is still listed as governor of the province. However, in my
opinion we obviously need a more active governor. Its a shame that the province
must suffer this ship without a captain syndrome.

> <Snip>

>
> 4-Because current cives have no access to the e-mail addresses
> of any other cives (excepting published addresses of
> of magistrates, Pontiffs and those cives posting to one of
> the public lists,) I had no reasonable hope of getting
> in touch with any other cives in the province. I was further
> told that I would have to become governor even to
> gain access to e-mail addresses! (More on this later.)
>

That is correct. This is because the Lex Cornelia de Privatus Rebus. It
protects confidential information of all citizens.

>
> 5-Marcus Cornelius offered to announce the formation of
> the America Boreoccidentalis e-groups list, if and only
> if he could be added to the list transparently. (Without
> going through the manual e-groups 'join' process.) As
> I am not the list owner, the best I could do was pass
> this request on to the cive in charge of that list,
> whom has seemed to disappear.
>

To my knowledge anyone can create an email list. You can create an email list
today, it only takes a few minutes at www.egroups.com. I know that when the
previous governor of California resigned, the paterfamilias of the Gens Trocia
(sorry I cant recall your full Roman Name) Created
californianovaroma@-------- When I became Proconsul of California I was
appointed Moderator of that list. That was certainly acceptable to me.

>
> 6-The only hope out of this predicament is for someone
> to step forward, become the sanctioned governor and
> do some massive reorganization.
>

Yes that does seem like the best overall solution.

>
> Further, I've been told that I can't join a more
> 'happening' province, as I don't physically reside there. Currently,
> there are *three* cives in America Boreoccidentalis listed
> as residing in New York, and one listed as living in
> VA! A Censor stated that this was being changed, but in the
> meantime I was out of luck other than perhaps joining
> the mailing lists of other provinces. (A possible
> thought actually.
>

I highly suggest to anyone that you can subscribe to most Nova Roma affiliated
email lists. I am personally subscribed up on the NR_Rockies, Britannia,
California Nova Roma, NovaRomaByzantia (sp.), Canada's lists, and others. I am
sure anyone else can sign up to those lists as well and others. That is
something I highly recommend.

<Snip>

>
> 1-Personally, I think that all cives should have the right to
> contact one another via e-mail. NOTE that I'm not at all suggesting
> that we post everyone's address on the main page which is public,
> or that we are given any information beyond a citizen's full
> Roman name and an e-mail address for contact. My suggestion is that
> e-mail addresses for citizens become available AFTER a citizenship
> application has been approved. Once someone is verified and approved,
> then they are provided with a username and password to access
> possibly a secured area of the Album Gentium which lists the known
> e-mail addresses for each cive.
>

As I stated before the Lex Cornelia de Privatus Rebus prohibits this information
being made public. There have been a number of emails I received as Consul
requesting this protection for a number of reasons. Primarily, citizens were
concerned about the possibility of selling information to outside companies and
thus increasing spam issues. Secondly, related to spam, many of us who have our
email addresses listed on the NR main page do get spam because our addresses are
available to the public (both NR public and just surfers who find the site).
Third, a feeling of security for those citizens who want to make absolutely
certain their private information would not be compromised in any manner.

>
> 2-Citizenship applications should include a phone call to the prospective
> candidate to validate the phone number, that they are who they say
> they are. This will also help validate that cives are matched to phone
> numbers, matched to addresses implying the basic capabilities to
> maintain citizenship in NR. Additionally, the citizen's e-mail
> address should be tested with a required response for further
> validation. In short, citizenship has to become more meaningful
> and worthy of our great nation.
>

Well I have taken a great many steps in that direction. :) First off, when I
applied for citizenship I had to snail mail my application to Nova Roma. While
at a worse case scenario we can reinitiate that. That would definitely show
just how much initiative prospective citizens have in Nova Roma. But, we would
sacrifice much of our growth. Currently we are receiving about 5 citizenship
applications per day. We have about 130 pending since Late November. With that
statement of fact, let me deal with each separate issue you have brought up. :)

As for the phone calls. I have called many a citizen and prospective citizen.
As I stated prior to the election I had a phone bill averaging around 30.00 a
month calling my Censorial Colleague (C. Marius Merullus) and citizens who
absolutely needed calling (because of email bouncing, pater issues, etc). Most
of my phone calls were in the United States and Canada. However, we have many
citizens who apply and they reside in Europe, Asia, Australia, South America and
Africa. I, as Censor, cannot afford to call globally when we get these
applications. It is much easier to email those people multiple times.

In an effort to prevent citizen applications from pending forever, I promulgated
an Edict in March that gives citizenship applications a life span of 60 days.
If I cannot approve a citizen application in 60 days, then it gets deleted and
if that person wants to reapply, they can. Most of the cases that that edict
has been exercised it was because the applicant has never responded to my emails
or my colleagues.

In an attempt to prevent frivolous applications, I promulgated an edict
requiring at least 2 forms of contact for the applicant. This means that they
would need to list an email addy (or multiple email addys), a physical address
or a phone number. If we do not get two forms of contact the application for
citizenship is sent an email requesting the applicant to comply or after 60 days
the application is deleted.

Finally, thanks to the excellent work of M. Octavius, he was able to implement
some of my suggestions to automatically verify if an email address is valid at
the time the application is submitted. The applicant, I believe, is sent an
email to confirm that the application for citizenship is correct, if that email
address bounces, we (the Censors) do not get the application for citizenship.
On top of that, many Paters/Materfamilias now probably have noticed that when a
new applicant attempts to join a Gens, they are automatically given an email
which includes a substantial portion of the citizenship application and a means
to contact the potential applicant. Once again, this is thanks to the great
work of Senator M. Octavius.

One of my final projects for the remainder of my term is the compilation of IM
information. By the end of the year I will have a very substantial database
that will hopefully be posted on the NR site that citizens can use as a means to
contact citizens. This list will include AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, MSN and other Instant
Message programs. This has been a project in the works for over a year now.
And, this information is not protected under the Lex Cornelia de Privatus Rebus.

>
> 3-Institute minimum 'property' qualifications for elected AND appointed
> magistrates. Let me be clear what is meant here: what I mean by
> 'property qualifications' is that a cive have the time and the
> *physical means* of carrying out their elected or appointed duty.
> By this, the individual should possess a phone for instance. (With the
> capability of being able to make long distance calls when needed.) The
> individual should have X amount of time per day, week, month,
> whatever to carry out their duties. The individual should have full
> access to a computer, *whether or not* they actually own one or not.
> (Churches, libraries, community colleges, NFP groups, etc. all can
> provide some level of computer access to those without.
>

I know that the Senate has began establishing requirements for governors. I
believe the Senate should take a more active role (No I don't know how it would
do that) to make sure those requirements are continually met. Given the
unfortunate situation that has arisen in your provincia.

>
> 4-To expound upon some recent posts proposing group-level organization;
> and in particularly to something that Formosanus eloquently stated
> earlier today: The Internet and its related communications mechanisms
> are inherently prone to misinterpretation. While the organization and
> structure of our great nation dictates a large degree of electronic
> communication, it is only a one-dimensional channel at best and MUST
> be augmented with good ol' physical interaction and communication.
> This includes both phone contact and physical gatherings at local/
> provincial/national levels. We need to know one another and must
> be able to put faces and personalities with the plethora of electronic
> content swirling around. Having access to the mail addresses
> of cives can facilitate such gatherings. Another inherent weakness of
> electronic
> communications is that it makes it extremely easy to delete
> undesirable communications, ignore them entirely or state that
> they were never received. I think we've probably all been guilty
> of that at one time or another, certainly including myself.
>

Well, that is all fine and wonderful to state, you will get no arguments from
me. :) However, its one thing to state it..and entirely different thing to
start doing it. I mean this with sincere respect and no criticism. But, as one
who has been in NR since She began in March 1998, I have probably spoken to
about 100 citizens on the phone. I have been to at least 10 meetings with
citizens (with more than 1 other citizen). I have planned or contributed to
planning at least 3 of them. I am not that great of a planner when it comes to
face to face meetings.

On the bright side, hopefully my IM database which will be available online will
make the communciation/coordination between individual citizens much more
feasible.

>
> 5-I propose that a chat be established in the coming days or weeks
> with all interested parties to come up with some creative solutions
> to the provincial and communications issues.
>

We had that, it was called Market Days, however, I know that the dates have been
screwy. Hopefully we can get this reorganized and re-implemented. It was a
good way for those who don't have alot of time to know exactly when people will
be in the chatroom, beyond the hit and miss many of us tend to experience. M.
Octavius, can we put on the www.novaroma.org/main.html page, a date showing the
next market day?

I hope my responses were helpful.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma

> Vale bene,
> -Oppius Flaccus Severus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Local Groups - Germania
From:	Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
Date:	Sat, 06 Jan 2001 13:59:33 +0100

L. Aetio Dalmatico atque onmibus Quiritibus provinciam Germaniam
habitantibus Lucilla Cinna salutem

[German version at the end of this post! - deutsche Fassung am Ende der
Nachricht!]

> I live in Heidelberg, in the Province of Germania. Is
> there anyone within driving distance who is interested
> in joining me in a local group? Either a local one,
> or one based on the Land Baden-Wuerttemberg? If there
> is sufficient interest, I am willing to host a
> meeting.

You'll find me happily offering my support. I live in Marburg, about
150kms away, so I can't just drop in, but I'll certainly come down for a
meeting, since Heidelberg is a beautiful place and worth a visit, anyway.
I'm able to prepare some Roman dishes as well and offer my help in that.
My Latin has become a bit rusty, but my English is quite okay.

By the way, C. Diocletianus doesn't live too far away from my place ...
What about a local/regional group for Hessen/NRW?

Apart from that, we should look out for meetings of re-enactment and
Living Latin groups - all of them a nice opportunity to meet up!

[translation]
L. Aetius Dalamticus, wohnhaft in Heidelberg, hat die Gründung einer
lokalen/regionalen NR-Gruppe für Baden-Würtemberg vorgeschlagen und
angeboten, daß bei ihm ein Treffen statfinden könne.
Ich möchte ihn dabei unterstützen und würde am angebotenen Treffen gerne
teilnehmen - ich kann auch ein bißchen römisch kochen. Allerdings ist
mein Latein etwas eingerostet. ;o)
C. Diocletianus, unser Provinzlegat und Praetor Urbanus, wohnt nicht
weit von mir (Marburg) entfernt. Da würde sich doch die Gründung einer
weiteren lokalen/regionalen Gruppe anbieten ...?
Außerdem sollten wir nach Treffen von re-enactment-Gruppen
(experimentelle Archäologie und Enthusiasten) sowie Vertretern der
Bewegung Lebendiges Latein Ausschau halten - solche Treffen bieten
hervorragende Gelegenheiten, sich in der passenden Umgebung kennenzulernen!

Avete atque valete,

Lucilla Cornelia Cinna
Quaestor
Retiaria pro tempore Sodalitatis Egressus
civis provinciam Germaniam inhabitans


_________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Local Groups - Germania (English and German)
From:	Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@-------->
Date:	Sat, 06 Jan 2001 16:12:41 +0100

Salvete,

E: Our Quaestorix Lucilla Cornelia Cinna made some interesting remarks. I´ll
give my answers below.
D: Unsere Quaestory Lucilla Cornelia Cinna hat einige intessante Anmerkungen
gemacht. Ich werde meine Antworten weiter unten geben.

Lucilla Cornelia Cinna wrote:

> L. Aetio Dalmatico atque onmibus Quiritibus provinciam Germaniam
> habitantibus Lucilla Cinna salutem
>
> [German version at the end of this post! - deutsche Fassung am Ende der
> Nachricht!]
>
> > I live in Heidelberg, in the Province of Germania. Is
> > there anyone within driving distance who is interested
> > in joining me in a local group? Either a local one,
> > or one based on the Land Baden-Wuerttemberg? If there
> > is sufficient interest, I am willing to host a
> > meeting.
>
> You'll find me happily offering my support. I live in Marburg, about
> 150kms away, so I can't just drop in, but I'll certainly come down for a
> meeting, since Heidelberg is a beautiful place and worth a visit, anyway.
> I'm able to prepare some Roman dishes as well and offer my help in that.
> My Latin has become a bit rusty, but my English is quite okay.

E: Real-life meetings are always a good idea. I support that. Heidelberg is
some 230 km away from my home. so I could drop in, too, and perhaps. C.
Valerius Opilio, who lives in Saarland, and my Scriba Diana Meridia Aurelia,
living in Baden-Württemberg.
D: Treffen sind immer eine gute Idee. Ich unterstütze es. Heidelberg liegt gut
230km entfernt, daher könnte ich ebenfalls teilnehmen, und vielleicht auch C.
Valerius Opilio, der im Saarland wohnt, und meine Scriba Diana Meridia
Aurelia, die in Baden-Württemberg lebt.

> By the way, C. Diocletianus doesn't live too far away from my place ...
> What about a local/regional group for Hessen/NRW?

E: Why not?
D: Warum nicht?


> Apart from that, we should look out for meetings of re-enactment and
> Living Latin groups - all of them a nice opportunity to meet up!

(snip)

E: I suggest that we move this topic to the newly established
nrgermania-mailinglist. That´s the mailinglist I mentioned in my answer to
Valerius Opilio. The url of the group is www.egroups.de/group/nrgermania/.
Perhaps you might join this list. BTW, Luci Aeti Dalmatice, what about your
knowledge of German?
D: Ich schlage vor, dass wir diesen Punkt in die neu eingerichtete
nrgermania-mailignliste verschieben. Da ist die Mailingliste, die ich in
meiner Antwort an Valerius Opilio erwähnt habe. Die url dieser Gruppe ist
www.egroups.de/group/nrgermania/. Vielleicht möchtet ihr die Liste abonnieren.
Übrigens, Luci Aeti Dalmatice, wie sieht es mit Deinen Deutschkenntnissen aus?

Valete
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Praetor, Senator
Legatus Germaniae

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Sprachprobleme in der Nova Roma
From:	Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@-------->
Date:	Sat, 06 Jan 2001 15:45:30 +0100

Salve, Caie Valeri Opilio,

E: Senator Marcus Maricus Rex made his statement bilingually, and so will I do. The reasons for that he explained.
D: Senator Marcus Marcius Rex verfasste seine Stellungnahme zweisprachig, und so werde ich es auch halten. Die Gründe hierfür hat er genannt.

E: I just want to give you some more information about the next steps in Germania.
D: Ich möchte Dir eigentlich nur ein paar zusätzliche Informationen über unsere nächsten Schritte in Germania geben.

E: Within the next time, we will establish two new services in Germania: The Germania Chatroom and the Germania mailing list. Both services are intended to promote intraprovicial communication, and the main language in both services will be German. Futhermore, we are planning a Germania newsletter, also with German as main language, as a media providing nonpartisan information about current topics of interest.
D. Innerhalb der nächsten Zeit, werden wir zwei neue Dienste in Germania anbieten: Den Germania Chatroom und die Germania Mailing-Liste. Beide Dienste sollen die Kommunikation innerhalb der Provinz fördern, die Hauptsprache wird in beiden Diensten Deutsch sein. Weiterhin planen wir eine Germania newsletter, ebenfalls mit Deutsch als Hauptsprache, als Medium, um unparteiische Informationen über aktuelle und interessante Themen zu geben.

E: With this new services we react to the language problems. This is only possible on provincial level.
D: Mit diesen neuen Diensten reagieren wir auf die Sprachproblematik. Dies ist leider nur auf Provinzebene möglich.

Vale, fellow citizen

Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Praetor, Senator
Legatus Germaniae


"Herr Schäfer" wrote:

> Caution - infringement of the law!!!!!
>
> Salve Citizens of the Nova Roma, Salve
> Senator Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix,
>
> Salve Bürger der Nova Roma, Salve Sena-
> tor Lucius Cornelius Sulla,
>
> die Wahlen in der Nova Roma sind mitt-
> lerweile Geschichte. Im Vorfeld dieser
> wichtigen Wahlen wurden viele Versprech-
> ungen gemacht. Soweit es mir möglich war, Euere unzähligen, in der eng-lischen Sprache verfaßten Wahlver-sprechungen zu entziffern, war das Sprachproblem in der Nova Roma ein "angeblich" wichtiges Thema. Leider ist davon heute in Eueren Mitteilungen nichts mehr zu lesen. Wertvolle In-formationen, Fragen und Ausführungen sind für viele Bürger der Nova Roma, vor allem in den europäischen
> Provinzen, nicht nachvollziehbar, weil
> es hier eben mehr Sprachen gibt, als nur
> die Englische. Wieviele Bürger können
> ihr wertvolles kontinental-europäisches Wissen über die römische Geschichte den anderen Bürgern der Nova Roma nicht mitteilen, wieviele Fragen können nicht gestellt werden? Ich gebe zu bedenken, daß gerade die europäischen Bürger der Nova Roma mehr Berührungspunkte mit der glorreichen Geschichte des römischen Imperiums haben, als anderswo. In unseren europäischen Ländern befinden sich die römischen Stätten, Villen, Bauwerke und Tempel. Hier ist Rom allgegenwärtig. Was haben dagegen, mit Verlaub, die amerikanischen Provinzen vorzuweisen?
> (dieser Satz führt wahrscheinlich zur
> Ausbürgerung aus der Nova Roma).
> Also, liebe Vertreter des Volkes der
> Nova Roma, laßt Euch etwas einfallen,
> damit auch die nicht englischsprachigen
> Bürger Europas an dem Geschehen in der
> Nova Roma teilhaben können! Bei uns in
> Europa ist das Erbe des Imperium Romanum
> allgegenwärtig. Ich selbst brauche in
> meiner saarländischen Heimat nicht weit
> zur reisen, um römische Stätten be- suchen zu können, in denen man die
> Geister unserer verstorbenen gallo-römischen Vorfahren spüren kann. Unsere Erde ist voller Zeugnisse römischen Schaffens und römischer Kunst. Strengt Euch also an, Volksvertreter des Volkes der Nova Roma, eine Lösung für das Sprachproblem zu finden. Schließlich ist Europa - und somit auch die Provinz Germania - unzweifelhaft das ange-stammte Territorium des Imperium Romanum, und mit Verlaub gesagt,
> nicht Amerika. Es sind gerade die Ab-
> weichungen von der Norm, die das Leben so interessant machen. Daher, zur Abwechslung auch mal eine Mitteilung in
> Deutscher Sprache - sozusagen als Pro-
> test gegen die englischsprachliche Ver-
> einheitlichung und zur Wahrung der
> sprachlichen Vielfalt in unserer euro-
> päischen Heimat und zur Erhaltung unserer wertvollen deutschen Sprache, welche vor nicht all zu langer Zeit die Sprache der Wissenschaft war und in manchen Bereichen auch heute noch ist. Ich stelle es Euch anheim, meinen Beitrag nach Euerem Gutdünken zu beurteilen und gegebenenfalls die entsprechenden Sanktionen zu treffen.
>
> Das angestammte Territorium des Im-
> perium Romanum ist nunmal Europa - und nicht Amerika. Und gerade deshalb sollte
> man in der Nova Roma die anderen europäischen Sprachen nicht vernach-
> lässigen.
>
> Vale!
>
> Caius Valerius Opilio
>
> Provinz Germanien
>
> VI. Januar des Jahres MMDCCLIV (ad urbe condita).
>
> --
>
> Spitzenhandy ein Jahr ohne Grundgebühr! Zahlen Sie zwölf Monate
> keine und danach 9,95 DM für das Ericsson T10s inkl. Ledertasche
> und portabler Freisprecheinrichtung.
> Alles zum Weihnachtspreis von DM 0.- http://handy.freenet.de

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] State of the Province -America Boreoccidentalis and related topics<long>
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 11:52:29 -0500

Salvete;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Smith [mailto:JSmithCSA@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 7:08 AM
>
> This is, indeed, a sad state of affairs. I think you
> have a good plan, and I hope you will become governor
> to right these wrongs. However, there are changes to
> be made that cover more than one province.

I agree completely, and would present a Senatus Consultum making Oppius
Flaccus Severus governor of the America Boreoccidentalis provincia, should
he want the job. It sounds like he has the interest, ideas, and drive to do
a good job.

Well, Oppius Flaccus Severus? Do you want the job?

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: A Death in the Family
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 12:15:13 -0500

Condolences to your family on your loss, especially at this time of the
year.

Goddess Bless

Helena Galeria Auriliana

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Age-Law Amendment
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 12:13:05 -0500

Salve;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeroen Meuleman [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 7:07 AM
>
> I'd only like to make one small remark. I haven't made this amendment
solely
> to further my own purposes. As everyone is well aware, I'm not 18, so even
> my own amendment wouldn't apply to me!

Odd. The Senate was told that you were 17 years old as of last month. That
would make you 18 by next December's elections, and thus your proposal would
in fact apply to you. Were the Censors in error about your age?

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Local Groups (long)
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 12:30:01 -0500

I agree completely that the SCA's organizational structure is one to emulate
(this does not imply at all that anything else needs to be). I am very
familiar with the SCA, having been a member for about 15 years. Those of us
who have had such experience should be able to filter out the bad (a lot) &
retain the good ideas. Always remembering that the Nova Roma goals and
ideals are totally different from any role-playing group.

After all (I will now say something which undoubtedly will tick some
people), Wicca (as in Gerald Gardner) seems to be structured along the same
lines as Mary Kay or Tupperware (sorry, but it is a pyramid organization)
without having anything at all to do with selling anything.


LIVIA states: So the provincial structure could be:
Province/Territory/Regio (if definable)/Local chapter. They could be
established upon petition to the propraetor.

I think that would be great. I'd love to actually be able to see people,
try out recipes, practise latin, etc. Unfortunately, it seems we are still
spread pretty thin.

Helena Galeria

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Uncontested elections
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 12:39:54 -0500

Salvete;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Smith [mailto:JSmithCSA@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 1:32 AM
>
> I would also submit to you that if the "the election
> process is somewhat arduous for the magistrates
> involved", they will find the offices they earn even
> more arduous. If they are not up to the election,
> they are certainly not up to the job. I cannot
> believe that the election process will keep people
> from running for office...in fact, in another debate
> we're having right now, we're asking whether why
> teenagers can't run for office. (This does not mean
> that our electoral debates are not overly bitter and
> personal, but it seems office-holding in NovaRoma
> subjects one to this, as well.)

You misunderstand me. I referred to the magistrates involved in running the
election process; the curatores, the webmaster, etc. Not the candidates. Or
perhaps you, with your experience as quaestor, would support having such
elections over and over until the same candidates who stood for an empty
spot finally got a plurality of a tribe? It seems to me a waste of effort.

> This is an interesting point, related to one of mine.
> As rogator in the last election, I was surprised to
> learn that there was no cut-off date to announce one's
> candidacy. I would like to an ending of announcing of
> candidacies simultaneous with the beginning of voting.
> Should your proposal pass, this should also be the
> time for that.

Actually, this is untrue. A careful reading of the laws governing the
workings of the comitiae does in fact reveal that once the comitia is
officially called to the vote by the appropriate magistrate, no new
candidates are allowed to be considered.

> > And second, should such a law be made retroactive to the last
magisterial
> > election (which would, in effect, allow all of December's candidates for
> > Quaestor to assume office, even those who failed to win a tribe)?
>
> I hope not. An election was held, fairly and in
> compliance with our Constitution. It is not right to
> make laws retroactive to change that election. This
> will put us on the slippery slope to tyranny (if we
> can change the results of one election ex post facto,
> we can change the results of others when the results
> don't appeal to us).

I only broached the possibility in order to save our new rogatores the job
of having to manage another election for Quaestor (in which it seemed likely
that the previous candidates would stand and win). If there are more folks
who are interested in the job now, then by all means let's have another
election! Otherwise, I fail to see the point of going through the motions
just to come up with the same result... (which is of course the whole point
of my proposal).

> > If we reach a consensus, I could foresee calling
> > this issue to a vote this
> > month (but naturally there is no rush; we should
> > take all the time we need
> > to talk such things through).
>
> I hope you will accept my comments, which are intended
> in a constructive way, and that the debate will be
> joined by others who can provide comment.

Naturally! I think this is the way these things should go; we can disagree
without insults, and have different opinions without rancor.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Age-Law Amendment
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 12:47:21 -0500

Salvete;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: jmath669642reng@-------- [mailto:jmath669642reng@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 6:44 AM
>
> In my view the subject law should be left alone. The purpose of the law
> was well defined when it was passed, and has not changed it's purpose,
> in my view one, small whit, since it's passage.

I agree. Let us bring this back around to my original point (which you
brought us back to yourself, below); when should the request for exemption
be made? So far, the consensus seems to be before the election process
begins, but we've since gotten sidetracked. I just want to make sure that
this is indeed the consensus on this particular issue.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Uncontested elections
From:	"Marcos Boehme" <m_arminius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 06 Jan 2001 15:15:47 -0300

Salvete, Quirites

>> One of the weaknesses of our current election
>> process which was pointed up
>> in our most recent elections, is the possibility
>> that a candidate for office
>> who is running unopposed might still not win,
>> because he or she fails to
>> gain a majority of a tribe or century. In our last
>> elections, this happened
>> to several candidates for Quaestor.

>I do not agree with your proposal. I do not
>feel that a candidate should be elected merely for
>placing their name in the running. I also disagree
>that it is a weakness in our system that two
>candidates for the quaestership were not elected.

And what about if we consider the tied Tribes and Centuries.
We can consider a tied tribe as a "second class" vote, that we can use as
a way to avoid a draw between candidates, or to have more magistracies
filled. That is: if a candidate for Quastor (say, Centesimus Nullus) won 0 tribes, but a tribe (say, tribe XXXVI) have tied between him and another candidate (say, Millesimus Multiplus, wo won another tribe), and we have a position of Quaestor available, he can be declared a Quaestor elected, because he shares a first position in a tied tribe.

But i confess that this proposal add more confuse situations. By the way, what if three candidates for Consul receives the same number of centuries in a election (yes, it can happen).


Salvete

Marcus Arminius Maior
Aedilis Plebis


Get FREE Email/Voicemail with 15MB at Lycos Communications at http://comm.lycos.com

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Age-Law Amendment
From:	"Jeroen Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 19:40:55 +0100

Salve Consul,

Yes, you're right. As the matter a fact my birthdate is May 28 1983, so for
the coming elections my own model would actually apply to me, but I was
talking about the near future myself.

Vale!
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Scriba Aedilis Plebis
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
--**--
Novaromain? Parlez-vous français? Cliquez ici!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_GalliaBelgicaF
Nieuwromein? Spreekt u Nederlands? Klik hier!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_BelgicaBataviaD
Novaroman? Interested in philosophy? Click here!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_Philosophy
Novaroman? Interested in politics? Click here!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_DignitasForum

Subject:	[novaroma] RE: Local Groups
From:	Razenna <razenna@-------->
Date:	Sat, 06 Jan 2001 11:44:05 -0800

Salvete.

Previously Written:
>> - What minimum size and/or level of activity would
> > be expected for such a
> > local group? What happens if a group hasn't had a
> > meeting in 6 months?

> It's hard to run a group without 5
> participants...that's why the SCA sets that as the
> bottom line. Quarterly meetings, at least, should be
> required. Oversight would then prohibit a 6-month
> gap.


Five is a good number. Last July I tried to organize a get together here in the San
Francisco Bay Area. After the initial provincial enthusiasm, and physical world
demands kicking in the number of people who said they would show up was down to
five. The actual showing at the restaurant was three people. Myself and the
Martiani Gangali. I never heard from the two no-shows on the matter. (Some people
and commitments!) A good time was had by the three of us, but I did not consider
three friends having lunch together to count as a regio gathering so I never posted
anything on it. If you do not have at least five who will -- Not "can" or "might",
but WILL -- get together it is pretty bad. It can still be fun. I want to do it
again, but I'm not going to put out all that time and energy when all I need do is
contact one couple and talk about doing lunch. Life is too short.

C. Aelius Ericius.

Subject:	[novaroma] The office as quaestor
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 21:31:21 +0100

Salvete, Quirites

This is a proposal that I "privately" sent to the consuls a few days ago
(1). I have also earlier tried to discuss the election of questores (2).
This debatte has now been taken up by Illustrus Consul Flavius Vedius G.
and honorable Lucius Aetius D. under the title "Uncontested elections".
These issues seem to be conected, after some thought I have come to a
proposal that integrates a part of my European ... proposal, with this
discussion and some new thoughts. To make the background clear I am sorry,
but I feel forced to make the proposal to the consuls official and to
repeat the earlier text too.


(1)European fund and quaestores

"One quaestor shall be assigned to each of these magistrates by mutual
agreement or, if such cannot be made, by decision of the newly-elected
consuls. They shall have the power and obligation to administer those funds
that shall be allocated to them by the Senate in its annual budget under
the supervision of that magistrate to whom they are assigned."

As I am living in Sweden there will be some practical problems.

Maybe I should take responsibility for a special all-European fund, based
on taxes and collections. This fund could be the foundation for buying land
in for example Italy somewhere in the future. I don't know how to do this.
Maybe a one-list should be started including all European propraetores, the
"European" quaestor (me?) or quaestores as treasurer(es) and as chairman an
aedil or maybe an praetor? The list could be a forum and board for this
fund, which could act with the sanction of the Senate? Just a thought! What
do You think?

(2) Elections of Quaestores and A Compulsory Cursus Honorum

Salvete Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus and al citizens!

>Salve Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, and to others who may
>read this!
>
>Happy New Year!
>
>I am approaching the issue of the election of
>quaestors from a different point of view, in that I
>served as Rogator in the year that just ended. I am
>providing my comments as another perspective.

I really appreciate your thoughts.

>I have no opinion yet on a Compulsory Cursus Honorum
>and will not comment on it.
>
>--- Christer Edling <tjalens.h@--------> wrote:
>
>> 1. The Respublica according to the constitution need
>> 8 questores, two as
>> assistants for the consuls, two as assistants for
>> the praetores and lastly
>> four as assistants for the aediles, summa summarum 8
>> quaestores. There were
>> 8 candidates, but only 6 were elected because two
>> candidates didn't get a
>> majority in any tribe. I think this depends on the
>> fact that there was
>> taken a senatus consultum that meant that You could
>> only vote for one
>> candidate per office. This is OK when it comes to
>> offices with one (censor)
>> or two positions (consuls and praetores) but when it
>> comes to offices with
>> as many as 8 positions the votes of the tribes
>> simply are not enough. When
>> it comes to quaestores it would be better if the
>> citizens could vote for
>> all 8 needeed positions or for let's say half (4
>> positions). This is a
>> problem as this election shows. Of course making a
>> different rule about
>> electing quaestores also is a problem, maybe someone
>> else will find a
>> better solution than I have done?
>
>I recommended to the Senate the "one vote per office"
>proposal that was selected. I feel it is the easiest
>to count, thereby leading to a more accurate result.
>
>We did not discuss the option of allowing multiple
>counts for quaestors while allowing just one vote for
>the other offices. Quite honestly, I think it would
>be confusing, which is why I recommended against the
>"one vote per vacancy" option.
>
>Is voting confusing? We had, if I recall correctly,
>ten ballots that could not be counted of the about 200
>that voted. I would not like to see us to exceed that
>5% failure rate.

I understand the reasons behind the decision, but what do we do with the
result: too few quaestores elected by to few electors

>> 2. As a result of this problem a quaestor can be
>> elected by himself as I
>> was. I am brought up in a tradition that says that
>> You shall not candidate
>> for any "office" if You not are prepared to vote for
>> yourself and hereby
>> officially declare that You are fit for the
>> position. This I did and see
>> what happened, I was elected. ;-) Citizens who have
>> not been brought up in
>> the same traditon as I have (I guess) where not
>> elected, although they can
>> be more suited for the "job" then I am. It is OK
>> that people vote for
>> themselves, I think ;-), but we should see to it
>> that no one can be elected
>> by the vote of one citizen in the future.
>
>I agree absolutely that one should vote for him or
>herself. However, since the tribes number around
>10-12 cives each, that means each of us only gets 1/10
>of a vote (rough math)...it's hard to swing a vote
>with those odds.

Was this the real result? I one citizen with more points vote couldn't
he/she win over one other voter with less votes? In this eection wasn't it
possible to win a tribe as a lone voter?
>
>> 3. I also have submitted a proposal to the consuls
>> about one new task for
>> one or two European quaestores. I think that there
>> should be more specified
>> tasks for the 6 "extra" quaestores (assistants for
>> praetores and aediles)
>> and my suggestion is an idea for a beginning of a
>> correction of that
>> problem.
>
>Your proposal was not given -- I would be interested
>in looking at it, since I also live in Europe.

You will see it!

>> 4. The fact was that all candidates (8) for
>> quaestorship should have been
>> elected according to the need of the constitution.
>> There should have been
>> even more candidates (10 - 14) to give the populus a
>> choice. This maybe
>> could be fixed by making it Compulsory to become a
>> quaestor as the first
>> step of the Cursus Honorum, this would have forced
>> more persons to start
>> their career. I don't say that will help, but it
>> certainly should help!
>
>I'm not sure what you mean here. Candidates stood for
>the quaestership according to the Constitution. An
>election was held according to the Constitution and
>six were elected. The Senate and Consuls are, again
>in accordance with our Constitution, preparing to fill
>the vacant seats in the quaestorship. I can find no
>area where the Constitution was not followed in both
>spirit and letter.

Of course the Constitution was followed, but the correct positions was not
possible to fill. My question is why? And my answer is, maybe because of
the election system's weakness when it comes to the elections of
quaestores.? I think all would have been elected if the voters had had the
right to vote for more than one quaestor. I understand your reasons for the
advice You gave to the Senate, maybe it was the only possible one? I just
sit here with the result and ask You and a the citizens if there any
possibility to make the system even better to avoid the "bad" side-effects.

>I agree that more candidates would have given us a
>better choice (I do not say that to insult any of the
>candidates) and may have led to us having eight
>quaesters now. However, MORE VOTERS would may also
>have solved the problem -- while you voted, most other
>cives did not.

More voters would be nice! ;-)

>> 5. If we should have totally Compulsory Cursus
>> Honorum, I don't know yet,
>> as I said I'll be back to this issue, now I have to
>> go to bed this the
>> first day of the New Year. Happy New Year to All!
>
>Best wishes to you in your new position, and to all
>the other new magistrates, in the New Year.

Thanks for your support and for your excellent job as a Rogator!

>Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus
Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus



I am totally opposed to any office being filled by "walk-over" as suggested
by the Illustrus Consul and side with hoinorable Lucius Aetius D. in this
case. Which amongst other arguments lead me to a new proposal. which isn't
worded correctly to become law in the future, but gives the main direction:

NEW PROPOSAL TO ADJUST THE PROBLEMS WITH THE ELECTIONS OF QUAESTORES AND TO
DIVIDE THE QUAESTORES INTO NEW SPECIFIED TASKS

1. The problem with the election of the quaestores has two sources:
a/ the ONE-VOTE system for each office. This system is very good when it
comes to all other offices (1 -2 positions) than quaestores.
b/ the fact that there are 8 postions of quaestor.
2. We could choose two ways to amend this problem:
a/ Use another system when election quaestores
b/ Instead of connecting the questores to a pair of higher office-holders
as the Constitution now does, divide the quaestores into pairs with
different tasks, who are elected separately. There should still be some
connection to a higher office-holder, but the main connection should be to
a separate task. In the elections we shouldn't see the disadvantage that we
saw in the latest election wher the tribes where not enough to get all
needed quaestors elected.
3. New division of quaestores:

A. Two Quaestores urbani; responsible for the central treasure of state
under the Consuls and the Senate.
B. Two Quaestores "Europeius"; responsible for the above suggested European
fund under the Consuls for the time being or a newly elected pair of
Praetores "Europeius" in the future.
When other continents need funds we just elected a new pair of Quaestores.
C. Two Quaestores quaestiones; assisting the Aelides Curules with the work
of the Aediles C. as prosecutors.
D. Two Quaestores ludorum to assist the Aediles Plebis with all gatherings
of citizens in person.

4. As all can see within this proposal is also proposals for new tasks for
old office-holders and also maybe new office-holders, but I have mostly
been quite conservative. The old connection with higher office-holders is
kept in most part. What have changed then?

A. Quaestores urbani, nothing new, these are the "consular" quaestores, the
tasks can be given out to two of the elected quaestores according to the
Constitution and next election we elect these quaestores separately after
changing the Constitution.
B. Quaestores provincia "Europeius" are the praetorian quaestores, the
tasks can be given out to two of the elected quaestores according to the
Constitution and next election we elect these quaestores separately after
changing the Constitution.
C. Quaestores quaestiones is the most difficult. We are now awaiting new
proposals by the Consuls and Praetors about the judical system. Maybe we
should call these quaestores Quaestores urbi instead and await the new
judical system. Still they could assist the Aediles Curules with current
tasks and the tasks can be given out to two of the elected quaestores
according to the Constitution and next election we elect these quaestores
separately after changing the Constitution.
D. Quaestores ludorum should be elected in a new election as soon as
possible and we should continue to elect these two separately in the future.

A new pair of Praetores "Europeius" should be decided about before the next
election, until this happens the Consuls should have the task to lead the
Quaestores provincia "Europeius". The new "provincia" of the Aediles I
think the Senate could provisionally decide until regulated in a revision
of the Constitution, which in all cases will be needed as we legislate
about the new judical system.

I am open minded about my proposal, but I think it is possible to start
using most of it without changing the Constitution right now. I think there
are quite a few advantages within it, but I am sure that others will see
the weaknesses within the proposal. I am prepared to listen and learn. ;-)
Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Test
From:	"J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@-------->
Date:	Sat, 06 Jan 2001 16:09:08 -0500

"Herr Schäfer" wrote:

> test

Guten Tag! Your signal is fine. I think, though, that advertising
belongs in a different region of novaroma...Cassia? Would you be
able to direct Herr Schaefer to the proper location?
Vale,
S. Ambrosia Fulvia

>
> --
>
> Spitzenhandy ein Jahr ohne Grundgebühr! Zahlen Sie zwölf Monate
> keine und danach 9,95 DM für das Ericsson T10s inkl. Ledertasche
> und portabler Freisprecheinrichtung.
> Alles zum Weihnachtspreis von DM 0.- http://handy.freenet.de

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] State of the Province -America Boreoccidentalis and related topics<long>
From:	"Oppius Flaccus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 13:13:38 -0800

Salve Dalmaticus et omnes,

Thank you so much for the support! In catching up
on my mail today, there have been many words of
kindness and encouragement which have been much appreciated.
It is great to find that I was not alone in these
concerns and with enough of us supporting the positive
forces of change, these situations may be corrected.
I wanted to answer a few of your comments below
directly, am also going to be putting together a detailed
response to Sulla Felix and Germanicus posts as well
to expound on some of these issues.

Comments below.


Vale bene,
-Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Smith [mailto:JSmithCSA@--------]
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 4:08 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] State of the Province -America Boreoccidentalis and
related topics<long>


Salve!

This is, indeed, a sad state of affairs. I think you
have a good plan, and I hope you will become governor
to right these wrongs. However, there are changes to
be made that cover more than one province.

> 1-Personally, I think that all cives should have the
> right to
> contact one another via e-mail. NOTE that I'm not
> at all suggesting
> that we post everyone's address on the main page
> which is public,
> or that we are given any information beyond a
> citizen's full
> Roman name and an e-mail address for contact. My
> suggestion is that
> e-mail addresses for citizens become available
> AFTER a citizenship
> application has been approved. Once someone is
> verified and approved,
> then they are provided with a username and
> password to access
> possibly a secured area of the Album Gentium which
> lists the known
> e-mail addresses for each cive.

I agree with this. The egroups site has an option
wherein all of us can be given access to every other
participants email address. It is voluntary (i.e.,
you do not need to participate to receive and post
emails).

OFS: I could be wrong about this, but am not sure
if this would alleviate all of the problem. Reason
being is that those of us considering ourselves 'active'
are already subscribers to the lists. The issue I've
run into in the provincial endeavors is that there
are in fact a great many cives that choose not to
participate in any of the NR lists. In some cases, there
may be valid reasons for this (such as past political
problems, etc.) but under the current structure if
they decide to go into a cocoon of hiding and anonymity
there is no way to determine their potential willingness
to participate in meaningful projects at the provincial
or national levels. I've been told that there are
some cives out there that though they may seem to
be currently inactive, would love to play a more active
role in Nova Roma if they had the proper guidance.

> 2-Citizenship applications should include a phone
> call to the prospective
> candidate to validate the phone number, that they
> are who they say
> they are. This will also help validate that cives
> are matched to phone
> numbers, matched to addresses implying the basic
> capabilities to
> maintain citizenship in NR. Additionally, the
> citizen's e-mail
> address should be tested with a required response
> for further
> validation. In short, citizenship has to become
> more meaningful
> and worthy of our great nation.

Do you suspect that some of these people do not exist?
That seems to be what you're saying. A major part of
my job is being able to get in contact with people
immediately. It's impossible -- and I don't deal with
600+ people.

OFS: Great question! It isn't that I don't believe that
they exist, rather I'm not sure that all are legit or
are committed, or that they possess even the most basic
of resources for being productive members of our great
nation. A phone call maps a place to a person, to an
identity to a confirmation that "Yes, I'm so and so, I
do in fact reside at this address and phone number, I
do want to be an active cive in Nova Roma, etc. I haven't
responded to Sulla's detailed post yet, so some of these
issues may be touched upon further. Also, keeping in mind
that I have no wish or desire to redefine the Censorial
role or to second guess the excellent efforts and
procedures established by the Censores. I'm only
interested in looking for some ways to add the dimension
of seriousness and reality to citizen candidates.

It's one thing to sit in a chair somewhere and
push some bits around a web site and think (hey, this NR
thing sounds pretty cool; sure I'll fill out the form.
If I then change my mind on a whim, I'll just disappear
and not answer my e-mail. It's *another* thing entirely
if someone gets a phone call from a real live person
to verify that a person is who they say they are. I can't fathom
any reason why anyone would want the citizenship
if they are just going to dry up and blow away without
ever contributing anything. Is it something just to have
for piece of mind? Something to put on a resume?
Something to impress one's professor?
Those of us who pour a lot of effort into taking their
citizenship seriously and contributing to the greater
good of all Nova Romans are significantly cheapened
(in my opinion) by these vapor individuals.

What I was really trying to get to in this point is that
in the 'Internet world', everyone is a transient entity;
movable and able to disappear at will. While our current
roles may say '600', it is hard to imagine this to be
an accurate number as only what...something like 200
cives voted in the last major election? Even generously
adding another 100 to this number, we're still far
away from a *practical* number of dedicated cives to
fulfill all the necessary roles with NR. (This gets into
recruiting discussions and related issues which
I'll defer to another times. Others have spoken out
on this very eloquently.) So, I see a 'physical' number
of approved applications on file, which seems in practice
to be a lot different than the 'practical' number
of cives. While it is certainly true that great nations
are built on the backs of a few, great nations
are sustained via the contributions and community
of its entire populace. (My view anyway.)

Note though: I would LOVE to be wrong about these
observations. Am only speaking to what I've observed, without yet
possessing an extensive history myself within Nova Roma.

In terms of the phone verification for all 600+ applicants,
am *only* suggesting at this juncture that a consideration
be made to add this to future applicants and is in no
way intended to be retroactive. The retroactivity if you will
of this component would have to be handled by the provincial
magistrates.

Your last sentence says it all. I'm not sure that all
of our 600+ citizens will agree.

OFS: True. I'd love for some of the 'virtual' citizens
to come forth, disagree and be counted.

> 3-Institute minimum 'property' qualifications for
> elected AND appointed
> magistrates. Let me be clear what is meant here:
> what I mean by
> 'property qualifications' is that a cive have the
> time and the
> *physical means* of carrying out their elected or
> appointed duty.
> By this, the individual should possess a phone for
> instance. (With the
> capability of being able to make long distance
> calls when needed.) The
> individual should have X amount of time per day,
> week, month,
> whatever to carry out their duties. The individual
> should have full
> access to a computer, *whether or not* they
> actually own one or not.
> (Churches, libraries, community colleges, NFP
> groups, etc. all can
> provide some level of computer access to those
> without.

Adding a line to the oath of office should do this.

OFS: Sounds like a great start.

<snippage>

I take it, then, that you are in support of
face-to-face meetings.

OFS: Absolutely. Face to face, phone to phone, etc.
In my belief, we'll always hover close to a few hundred
physical and 'virtual' cives until we go to the next
level of building community. Others have eloquently
addressed this in the 'Local Groups' thread so I can
but fully add my support to the extension of this topic.

> 5-I propose that a chat be established in the coming
> days or weeks
> with all interested parties to come up with some
> creative solutions
> to the provincial and communications issues.

Good idea. If it's at a reasonable time, I'll
participate.

OFS: Thank you. Your experience would add mightily
to these issues. Probably the usual time zone disparities
will apply but will see about organizing something
formal and posting plenty of notice prior to the
actual chat.

I would advocate a "novaroma governors" email address,
so praetors and propraetors, etc., can share info.

OFS: Sounds great! The more we communicate the better.

Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Sprachprobleme in der Nova Roma
From:	"J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@-------->
Date:	Sat, 06 Jan 2001 16:44:09 -0500

"Herr Schäfer" wrote:

> die Wahlen in der Nova Roma sind mitt-
> lerweile Geschichte. Im Vorfeld dieser
> wichtigen Wahlen wurden viele Versprech-
> ungen gemacht. Soweit es mir möglich war, Euere unzähligen, in der eng-lischen Sprache verfaßten Wahlver-sprechungen zu entziffern, war das Sprachproblem in der Nova Roma ein "angeblich" wichtiges Thema. Leider ist davon heute in Eueren Mitteilungen nichts mehr zu lesen. Wertvolle In-formationen, Fragen und Ausführungen sind für viele Bürger der Nova Roma, vor allem in den europäischen

Salve Herr Schaefer!
Ich kan nicht so gut deutsch sprechen, aber ich spreche norwegisch und englisch und french (allemagne-sprache). Ich kan laese ein bischen deutsch, aber ich habe diffikultaet mit grammatik...

> Provinzen, nicht nachvollziehbar, weil es hier eben mehr Sprachen gibt, als nur die Englische.

For you German-impaired cives, Herr Schaefer is concerned about the English-Only Nova Roma site, and wishes that there were more breadth for the non-English speakers. I tried to write some German back to him, but my German is shaky at best. I also cannot do all the umlauts and special characters. Is there any citizen who is fluent in German who could help Herr Schaefer out? I don't know if he knows any English at all...and he *does* seem to be quite interested in Nova Roma.

> Wieviele Bürger können
> ihr wertvolles kontinental-europäisches Wissen über die römische Geschichte den anderen Bürgern der Nova Roma nicht mitteilen, wieviele Fragen können nicht gestellt werden? Ich gebe zu bedenken, daß gerade die europäischen Bürger der Nova Roma mehr Berührungspunkte mit der glorreichen Geschichte des römischen Imperiums haben, als anderswo. In unseren europäischen Ländern befinden sich die römischen Stätten, Villen, Bauwerke und Tempel. Hier ist Rom allgegenwärtig. Was haben dagegen, mit Verlaub, die amerikanischen Provinzen vorzuweisen?

Here, Herr Schaefer points out that the Roman Empire was in *Europe*, rather than in North America...there are cities, villas, outposts, and temples [and much more!] there. He also wonders about European Nova Roma "cities" or "provinces". Being a mere travelling soothsayer in the hinterlands of Brittania, I'm not at all up on any Continental cives.

>
> (dieser Satz führt wahrscheinlich zur Ausbürgerung aus der Nova Roma). Also, liebe Vertreter des Volkes der Nova Roma, laßt Euch etwas einfallen, damit auch die nicht englischsprachigen
> Bürger Europas an dem Geschehen in der Nova Roma teilhaben können!

I think that Herr Schaefer would really appreciate it if there were some translators or other provisions made for non-English speakers. I can help on Norwegian (Swedes and Danes understand Norwegian fine) but again cannot do any of the special characters. Are there cives fluent in other tongues living in our beloved Nova Roma?

> Bei uns in Europa ist das Erbe des Imperium Romanum allgegenwärtig. Ich selbst brauche in meiner saarländischen Heimat nicht weit zur reisen, um römische Stätten be- suchen zu können, in denen man die Geister unserer verstorbenen gallo-römischen Vorfahren spüren kann.

Not far from his Saarland homeland, there's a Roman settlement/fortress in which the ghosts of deceased Gallo-Romans can be asked about things...at least that's what I understood without hauling out my dictionary. "Geist" can also mean "spirit". The Roman influence, even today, on Europe is still strong and all-permeating. [doing my best to translate here...]

> Unsere Erde ist voller Zeugnisse römischen Schaffens und römischer Kunst.

Our world is full of regions of Roman skills and arts.

> Strengt Euch also an, Volksvertreter des Volkes der Nova Roma, eine Lösung für das Sprachproblem zu finden.

Please, oh please, is there a solution for the language problem?

> Schließlich ist Europa - und somit auch die Provinz Germania - unzweifelhaft das angestammte Territorium des Imperium Romanum, und mit Verlaub gesagt, nicht Amerika.

Again, he repeats that it is Europe - and this includes the Province Germania - which certainly was the site of the Roman Imperion, and regretfully, not America.

> Es sind gerade die Abweichungen von der Norm, die das Leben so interessant machen. Daher, zur Abwechslung auch mal eine Mitteilung in Deutscher Sprache - sozusagen als Protest gegen die englischsprachliche Vereinheitlichung und zur Wahrung der sprachlichen Vielfalt in unserer euro-
> päischen Heimat und zur Erhaltung unserer wertvollen deutschen Sprache, welche vor nicht all zu langer Zeit die Sprache der Wissenschaft war und in manchen Bereichen auch heute noch ist. Ich stelle es Euch anheim, meinen Beitrag nach Euerem Gutdünken zu beurteilen und gegebenenfalls die entsprechenden Sanktionen zu treffen.

Herr Sschaefer is writing this in German as a protest to the English-only format. (Hr. Schaefer, ich kan nicht gut deutsch sprechen; ich uebersetze soviel ich kan...) He also regrets that German, once the language of scientists and research, has apparently fallen by the wayside [I still have my father's book on scientific German; he had to study that language for engineering school!]. As much as I can tell, he is couching his remarks in elegant and polite prose...wish I'd had more than a year of college German back in the early sixties!
Studied French and Norwegian instead.

> Das angestammte Territorium des Imperium Romanum ist nunmal Europa - und nicht Amerika. Und gerade deshalb sollte man in der Nova Roma die anderen europäischen Sprachen nicht vernachlässigen.

Again, Hr. Schaefer insists that the Roman Empire is a European phenomenon, not American. And also that other European tongues are not seen on the Nova Roman site.

Ave, Hr. Schaefer...oops, Caius Valerius Opilio:

Ich hofe wie ein citizen kan schreibe/uebersetze auf deutsch fuer Euch. Er? [I hope that a citizen can write/translate in German for you (formal, polite form of You). You? (well, that's the closest version of it in a dialect/version of Norwegian, as I'm not sure of the German]... (I hope I didn't mess up too badly in my attempt to translate his message into English, or in my hamhanded version of German...)

Vale,

S. Ambrosia Fulvia

> Vale!
> Caius Valerius Opilio

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Sprachprobleme in der Nova Roma
From:	"J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@-------->
Date:	Sat, 06 Jan 2001 16:49:23 -0500

Marc wrote:

> Nova Roma is tackling the language problem on the provincial level.

Bless you! From what I can tell, your German is a *lot* better than
mine!
Fulvia

Subject:	[novaroma] On youth and public service
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 16:35:17 -0500

Salvete, Omnes;

The recent threads on the possibility of lowering the age requirements for
magistracies (in which good points have been raised on all sides) has gotten
me thinking on the general role of young people in our society. I think a
broad discussion of this role would be more appropriate at this time, rather
than quibbling over details (that can come later! *grin*).

Because we are yet a micronation (and seem destined to remain so for the
foreseeable future), we are forced to acceed to macronational demands in
certain things. One of these things is the minimum age for membership (or
Citizenship, as we call it), which our Constitution defines as whatever the
age of self-management ("sui juris") is in one's macronation of residence
(not the age of 18, although that is a pretty common standard).
Historically, this was younger in Roma Antiqua, but our circumstances
compell us to obey such restrictions.

Much more open are our options concerning our public servants. With some few
exceptions (the Consuls, Censors, Senators etc. who double as officers of
the corporation and thus have macronational restrictions that must be
abided), we are free to establish whatever guidelines we wish for our
magistrates and other public officials.

As it stands, our law (the Lex Iunia de Magistratum Aetate) stipulates the
age of 21 as the earliest one can serve as a magistrate (with older minimums
for progressively more important offices). I am in favor of keeping these
minimums for now. Remember, these age limitations are already a compromise
with modern sensibilities; in Roma Antiqua, one did not hold the office of
Quaestor until around age 27! I think that, if anything, we have diverged
from ancient precident more than enough on this particular issue, and should
be thinking of raising those limits in years to come, as our population
grows and our cadre of experienced public-minded cives grows. But that is a
debate for some years' hence; leave them as they are for now.

That being said, we are left with a three-year gap between the age a person
can become a citizen (18) and the youngest they can serve as magistrate
(21). It has been suggested that this is somehow intolerable for cives
18-20, and deprives the State of indispensible people desirous to serve.

To the first point, I can only speak from personal experience. Did I like
having to wait until I was 21 to drink? Of course not. Did I like having to
wait until I was 17 to drive? Of course not. And yet I, and hundreds of
millions of people like me, did just that and managed to survive. Sometimes
even a teenager has to wait, alien though it may be to the nature of youth.

To the second point, that we are in effect turning away capable young people
who wish to serve, I must question its very basis. Are we saying that the
_only_ way to serve is through one of the twenty or so magistracies that are
out there? Is there _no_ other venue for someone-- whose stated purpose is
merely to serve-- to be of benefit to the Republic? No, I say!

Opportunities abound for someone under the age of 21 to serve Nova Roma, and
as provincial administrations grow, and if (when) local chapters begin to
coalesce and grow, the chances for people 18, 19, and 20 years old to serve
will increase many times over! Serve as scribus! Serve as legatus! Start (or
join) a reenactment legion! Start a local chapter! Distribute flyers at your
school or other likely venue! Join a sodalicum! Write some material for the
web site! But don't believe for a second that helping Nova Roma begins and
ends with serving in one of the magistracies. If nothing else, two or three
years of hard leg-work, proving your worth, will make you a much more
attractive candidate when the time does come.

And let us not forget that for that rare 19 year old whose maturity,
commitment, energy and knowledge so stand out from the crowd as to demand a
relaxing of the rules, our current laws make for such allowances.

But the subject of this post is "youth" and not merely "young cives".
Remember, our laws also exclude children and most teens from Citizenship
itself (mostly to avoid macronational entanglements), but not from
membership in gentes. Why was this done? To afford the youngest members of
our community a way to participate without actually joining. To give a means
by which children of citizens could participate in events, and yet avoid the
macronational complications that child "membership" in an organization
brings for that organization. I look to the day when the children of today's
cives start to grow up themselves, and look with eager anticipation to their
18th birthday, when they can submit their formal application for
Citizenship, having spent many a weekend growing up attending Nova Roma
gatherings in and around their home town.

To those who wish to serve, but feel they are prevented from doing so, I say
service takes many forms, all of which can be just as important as an
elected magistracy.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] State of the Province -America Boreoccidentalis and related topics<long>
From:	"Oppius Flaccus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 13:35:10 -0800

Salvete Draco et omnes,

Thank you for your well-needed input. In some ways
I'm relieved that 'it's not just me' and by the same
token I'm even further saddened that it's so
widespread! But, being an action-minded
cive though, it's shaping up to be a common thread to
which yourself, Livia Cornelia, Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus,
Sulla Felix and others have lended credence and generous
offers of support to. (Don't mean to leave anyone out,
am still catching up on my mail and haven't read all
my responses yet.) Time to turn sadness into action!

At the provincial level, it seems somewhat of a catch 22.
On the one hand, it's hard to attract new talent without
'something to show' for it in terms of events, physical
structures, etc. On the other hand, it is not possible
to build and stage events and other social gatherings
without dedicated cives; so around it goes.

Some of my ideas were to develop some 'Marketing Materials'
that are of high quality and official looking to distribute
to Universities and Community Colleges. (University
Alumni associations representing one possible venue
for this.) If this were to move forward, we would be willing
to put some of our own money toward this endeavor.
It would of course also have to be language 'localized'
to really hit hard at the provincial level. Perhaps
something that could be handled directly by the governor
or Legatus.

Additionally, there
might be some ways to get information into some of the larger
corporate entities; especially when we gain a full NFP status.
Also, I'm in full favor of separate websites: One being the
"Nova Roma Marketing/Informational site" and the other representing
the "Intranet, or cive-only" site. The Marketing site should
be geared completely toward attracting members; happy faces
of people participating in gatherings, meetings, discussions,
etc. The internal geared toward supporting us as cives.
Possibly being password protected. This is just the start
of an idea though and something that requires input from
my fellow cives and some additional fleshing out at this
end.

Am discussing some further ideas with Salonina this weekend.
In the meantime, as perhaps a separate thread of discussion for
all of us that are interested in propagating NR at the provincial
level, we could possibly work on developing a compendium of ideas
on attracting some solid and dedicated talent to NR. Some of this
has been discussed before on the list, so I'd need to catch up
on some of that as well.

Vale bene,
-Oppius


-----Original Message-----
From: Jeroen Meuleman [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 3:20 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] State of the Province -America Boreoccidentalis and
related topics<long>


Salvete Oppi Flacce et Livia Cornelia,

I think the analysis of Oppius Flaccus is saddening, but all too true. It's
an illness that affects many provinciae here in Nova Roma, including Gallia.
Although we cannot complain too hard, because at least we have an active
administracy, the rest of our citizens remains fast asleep. This is indeed
discouraging, and I agree whole-heartedly with the solutions presented.
Another factor is also, I think, how we can make Nova Roma attractive on a
provincial level? I don't really have a solution thought out for this,
because I'm not planning on paying for huge tv commercials ;-). But,
seriously, I think a similar problem also affects smaller Sodalitates and
lists that are NR-related. How could this be solved?

Valete!
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Scriba Aedilis Plebis
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
--**--
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http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_GalliaBelgicaF
Nieuwromein? Spreekt u Nederlands? Klik hier!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_BelgicaBataviaD
Novaroman? Interested in philosophy? Click here!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_Philosophy
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http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_DignitasForum


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Subject:	[novaroma] Recruiting (was RE: State of the Province ...)
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 17:40:52 -0500

Salve!

Oppius Flaccus raises a number of good points, but I wanted to address one
in particular (as I think it meshes with my idea of the other day regarding
local chapters).

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Oppius Flaccus [mailto:oppiusflaccus@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 4:35 PM
>
> At the provincial level, it seems somewhat of a catch 22.
> On the one hand, it's hard to attract new talent without
> 'something to show' for it in terms of events, physical
> structures, etc. On the other hand, it is not possible
> to build and stage events and other social gatherings
> without dedicated cives; so around it goes.

This doesn't seem to me to be the Catch-22 you might think it is. I think it
might actually be a _plus_ to get some local interest (and recruiting some
local members) by advertising a _new_ chapter was forming (something people
could feel they were getting in "on the ground floor" of). So what if there
aren't a lot of already-active cives in your area? Go ahead and get your
own!

I'm pretty sure if you were to spread the word with flyers (there are some
available for download on the website, at
http://www.novaroma.org/literature.html, but I think these might be in need
of some slight revisions on the address) at local university classics
departments, pagan (and non-pagan) bookstores, poking around SCA events, or
maybe even getting a table at a local Italian festival, you'd find some
interested folks. Voila! A local group is born, and a quiet provincia (or at
least regio) is awakened.

> Some of my ideas were to develop some 'Marketing Materials'
> that are of high quality and official looking to distribute
> to Universities and Community Colleges. (University
> Alumni associations representing one possible venue
> for this.) If this were to move forward, we would be willing
> to put some of our own money toward this endeavor.
> It would of course also have to be language 'localized'
> to really hit hard at the provincial level. Perhaps
> something that could be handled directly by the governor
> or Legatus.

I wholeheartedly agree. We need more materials for recruiting and getting
the word out. We did quite a bit of this early on (we actually had
multi-page introductory booklets printed up that we managed to sell quite a
few of at our first Roman Days in 1998). I think it is time to get this
aspect of our outreach geared up again. If I may, I believe the Sodalicum
Egressus is just the place to discuss these sorts of ideas.

> Additionally, there
> might be some ways to get information into some of the larger
> corporate entities; especially when we gain a full NFP status.
> Also, I'm in full favor of separate websites: One being the
> "Nova Roma Marketing/Informational site" and the other representing
> the "Intranet, or cive-only" site. The Marketing site should
> be geared completely toward attracting members; happy faces
> of people participating in gatherings, meetings, discussions,
> etc. The internal geared toward supporting us as cives.
> Possibly being password protected. This is just the start
> of an idea though and something that requires input from
> my fellow cives and some additional fleshing out at this
> end.

I must confess my gut tells me this would be a bad idea. But, I'm always
willing to entertain new ideas. Right now, the main web site is very much a
"working marketing site"; that is, there's much in there for potential cives
to see, including that information that those who are already citizens use.
I think it is a good thing for potential citizens to get a complete picture
of what life is like within our community; I get the sense you want to block
out certain parts of it. What parts, may I ask?

> Am discussing some further ideas with Salonina this weekend.
> In the meantime, as perhaps a separate thread of discussion for
> all of us that are interested in propagating NR at the provincial
> level, we could possibly work on developing a compendium of ideas
> on attracting some solid and dedicated talent to NR. Some of this
> has been discussed before on the list, so I'd need to catch up
> on some of that as well.

Once again, I would point you to the Sodalicum Egressus. Sounds like they're
right up your alley! (For more information, the Senatus Consultum which
created them is at http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/sen00140601.htm and
they have an eGroups email list which you can find there if you just do a
search on "Egressus". I'll tell you, it's good to see someone so enthused to
get something going on in their province!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] State of the Province -America Boreoccidentalis and related topics<long>
From:	"Oppius Flaccus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 15:19:40 -0800

Salve Censor Sulla et omnes,

Prior to replying and adding comments to the below,
I should preface by saying that Censor Sulla Felix
and myself had a very nice, constructive and
illuminating chat. He was good enough to spend
some time with me discussing the issues and providing
some much needed background on the province and
Nova Roma in general. Additionally, among other things
he provided me with some excellent material on
governorship requirements. For all that -Thank you
Sulla Felix!

Respondeo below:
-----Original Message-----
From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla [mailto:alexious@--------]
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 3:09 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] State of the Province -America Boreoccidentalis and
related topics<long>


Ave,

My comments are listed below. This post is going to be VERY Long but
hopefully
fairly detailed:

OFS: Detailed indeed -thank you!

Oppius Flaccus wrote:

<snippage>

Its a shame that your province is in such straights. Your Governor has
disappeared. About 4-5 months ago he reapplied for citizenship stating he
resigned earlier. As Censor, I checked my emails (yes I save them all) and
I
never found anything that showed he resigned his citizenship, governorship
or
anything. My colleague at the time, C. Marius Merullus also checked his
information. I then notified his Paterfamilias, Decius Iunius Palladius
Invictus regarding this situation. This was all done by October, I believe.
The end result was that we did not accept his new application. With that
decision, he is still listed as governor of the province. However, in my
opinion we obviously need a more active governor. Its a shame that the
province
must suffer this ship without a captain syndrome.

OFS: This is invaluable background information regarding the state
of the province.

> <Snip>

>
> 4-Because current cives have no access to the e-mail addresses
> of any other cives (excepting published addresses of
> of magistrates, Pontiffs and those cives posting to one of
> the public lists,) I had no reasonable hope of getting
> in touch with any other cives in the province. I was further
> told that I would have to become governor even to
> gain access to e-mail addresses! (More on this later.)
>

That is correct. This is because the Lex Cornelia de Privatus Rebus. It
protects confidential information of all citizens.

OFS: Per our discussion last night, I have a clearer understanding
of the reasoning behind this and I need to read through your Lex prior
to any further significant discussions on this matter. Though I did
expound earlier today in previous posts for clarification, will table
further discussion of this at the national level for the moment.

>
> 5-Marcus Cornelius offered to announce the formation of
> the America Boreoccidentalis e-groups list, if and only
> if he could be added to the list transparently. (Without
> going through the manual e-groups 'join' process.) As
> I am not the list owner, the best I could do was pass
> this request on to the cive in charge of that list,
> whom has seemed to disappear.
>

To my knowledge anyone can create an email list. You can create an email
list
today, it only takes a few minutes at www.egroups.com. I know that when the
previous governor of California resigned, the paterfamilias of the Gens
Trocia
(sorry I cant recall your full Roman Name) Created
californianovaroma@-------- When I became Proconsul of California I was
appointed Moderator of that list. That was certainly acceptable to me.

OFS: This is certainly a viable option, though initially I didn't
want to step on the toes of another cive who perhaps had similar
initiative, since a list had already been created.
Since the first list 'bombed' though due to participatory
issues previously discussed, one of the next steps would be
to reorganize the egroups and chat venues for the A.B. cives.

<snippage>

I highly suggest to anyone that you can subscribe to most Nova Roma
affiliated
email lists. I am personally subscribed up on the NR_Rockies, Britannia,
California Nova Roma, NovaRomaByzantia (sp.), Canada's lists, and others. I
am
sure anyone else can sign up to those lists as well and others. That is
something I highly recommend.

OFS: Thank you. I was graciously invited by Livia Cornelia Aurelia
to join the NR_Rockies list, which I did last night. Will plan on joining
the others as well to see how things are going on other provinces.

<Snip>

>
> 1-Personally, I think that all cives should have the right to
> contact one another via e-mail. NOTE that I'm not at all suggesting
> that we post everyone's address on the main page which is public,
> or that we are given any information beyond a citizen's full
> Roman name and an e-mail address for contact. My suggestion is that
> e-mail addresses for citizens become available AFTER a citizenship
> application has been approved. Once someone is verified and approved,
> then they are provided with a username and password to access
> possibly a secured area of the Album Gentium which lists the known
> e-mail addresses for each cive.
>

As I stated before the Lex Cornelia de Privatus Rebus prohibits this
information
being made public. There have been a number of emails I received as Consul
requesting this protection for a number of reasons. Primarily, citizens
were
concerned about the possibility of selling information to outside companies
and
thus increasing spam issues. Secondly, related to spam, many of us who have
our
email addresses listed on the NR main page do get spam because our addresses
are
available to the public (both NR public and just surfers who find the site).
Third, a feeling of security for those citizens who want to make absolutely
certain their private information would not be compromised in any manner.

OFS: I respect your statement of law and reasoning on this
issue. Your post and last night's chat shed some light on
some of the privacy issues. Please note: I am in no way *ever*
advocating 'public' (meaning outside NR citizenry) publishing
of anyone's e-mail address. As for spam, there is no one
on the planet that hates it more than I do and would never
personally advocate any steps for it to be instigated or
perpetuated within or without the walls of NR.
Per the previous statement above though, the Lex Cornelia
de Privatus Rebus still needs to be read before much more
can be said on my part. As I get deeper and deeper into
the whole provincial question and other areas of Nova
Roman life, it becomes vastly more apparent how much
I have to learn!

>
> 2-Citizenship applications should include a phone call to the prospective
> candidate to validate the phone number, that they are who they say
> they are. This will also help validate that cives are matched to phone
> numbers, matched to addresses implying the basic capabilities to
> maintain citizenship in NR. Additionally, the citizen's e-mail
> address should be tested with a required response for further
> validation. In short, citizenship has to become more meaningful
> and worthy of our great nation.
>

Well I have taken a great many steps in that direction. :) First off, when
I
applied for citizenship I had to snail mail my application to Nova Roma.
While
at a worse case scenario we can reinitiate that. That would definitely show
just how much initiative prospective citizens have in Nova Roma. But, we
would
sacrifice much of our growth. Currently we are receiving about 5
citizenship
applications per day. We have about 130 pending since Late November. With
that
statement of fact, let me deal with each separate issue you have brought up.
:)

OFS: Thank you for this information. It really helps greatly to have
this great insight into the issues with which you deal on a daily basis.
To address this statement specifically: my intent was to address
the validity and determine what those pending applications really represent.
In a previous post, I spoke of the idea of ease of application versus
validity of candidate. While I certainly in *NO* way want to slow down
NR's valid growth, I would much rather have 1 more well-qualified and
*active* cive than 100 new names on the roster. This is always tough
(and sometimes impossible) to manage in any organization, much less
a budding Micronation such as ours. More below...

As for the phone calls. I have called many a citizen and prospective
citizen.
As I stated prior to the election I had a phone bill averaging around 30.00
a
month calling my Censorial Colleague (C. Marius Merullus) and citizens who
absolutely needed calling (because of email bouncing, pater issues, etc).
Most
of my phone calls were in the United States and Canada. However, we have
many
citizens who apply and they reside in Europe, Asia, Australia, South America
and
Africa. I, as Censor, cannot afford to call globally when we get these
applications. It is much easier to email those people multiple times.

OFS: Could some of this be bounced to the provincial governors? For
instance,
if a new applicant resided in a province beyond the practical calling
area for the Censorial office, could this be forwarded to the provincial
governor for follow up? As we are effectively (though not officially)
a NFP organization, I fully understand and empathize with the need to
limit personal expenditure. (My own included! :-) That being said, having
a provincial governor initiate this would minimize the Censorial hit.
(Assuming that this is even a valid idea in the first place. I certainly
don't have all the answers, just firing things off for consideration.)

In an effort to prevent citizen applications from pending forever, I
promulgated
an Edict in March that gives citizenship applications a life span of 60
days.
If I cannot approve a citizen application in 60 days, then it gets deleted
and
if that person wants to reapply, they can. Most of the cases that that
edict
has been exercised it was because the applicant has never responded to my
emails
or my colleagues.

OFS: Excellent! You have done wonders with the Censorial office (this has
been relayed to many cives and from what I understand of the 'old ways'
of the censorial office, it has been completely renovated into a well-oiled
machine. Your efforts are to be commended! I can certainly see the
benefit in your Edicta.

In an attempt to prevent frivolous applications, I promulgated an edict
requiring at least 2 forms of contact for the applicant. This means that
they
would need to list an email addy (or multiple email addys), a physical
address
or a phone number. If we do not get two forms of contact the application
for
citizenship is sent an email requesting the applicant to comply or after 60
days
the application is deleted.

OFS: Understood and also a great edict. (I have many Leges and Edicts
to catch up on!)

Finally, thanks to the excellent work of M. Octavius, he was able to
implement
some of my suggestions to automatically verify if an email address is valid
at
the time the application is submitted. The applicant, I believe, is sent an
email to confirm that the application for citizenship is correct, if that
email
address bounces, we (the Censors) do not get the application for
citizenship.
On top of that, many Paters/Materfamilias now probably have noticed that
when a
new applicant attempts to join a Gens, they are automatically given an email
which includes a substantial portion of the citizenship application and a
means
to contact the potential applicant. Once again, this is thanks to the great
work of Senator M. Octavius.

OFS: My thanks also to Senator M. Octavius! Having just been
through this exercise myself with the application of my wife Salonina to
join my gens, I wholeheartedly think this automated process
works well and is a great thing. In this instance, I was
sent all the information I would need to contact her should
there have been any issues or verification requirements.

One of my final projects for the remainder of my term is the compilation of
IM
information. By the end of the year I will have a very substantial database
that will hopefully be posted on the NR site that citizens can use as a
means to
contact citizens. This list will include AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, MSN and other
Instant
Message programs. This has been a project in the works for over a year now.
And, this information is not protected under the Lex Cornelia de Privatus
Rebus.

OFS: This would be a very, VERY good thing and I look forward to
this database. I have to wonder (excuse any political naiveté on
my part,) would the same factions that required the passing
of the Lex Cornelia de Privatus Rebus band together to attempt
adding personal chat handles to the protection of the law?

>
> 3-Institute minimum 'property' qualifications for elected AND appointed
> magistrates. Let me be clear what is meant here: what I mean by
> 'property qualifications' is that a cive have the time and the
> *physical means* of carrying out their elected or appointed duty.
> By this, the individual should possess a phone for instance. (With the
> capability of being able to make long distance calls when needed.) The
> individual should have X amount of time per day, week, month,
> whatever to carry out their duties. The individual should have full
> access to a computer, *whether or not* they actually own one or not.
> (Churches, libraries, community colleges, NFP groups, etc. all can
> provide some level of computer access to those without.
>

I know that the Senate has began establishing requirements for governors. I
believe the Senate should take a more active role (No I don't know how it
would
do that) to make sure those requirements are continually met. Given the
unfortunate situation that has arisen in your provincia.

OFS: This is also great. Again (in my mind anyways) it comes
down to the verification issues. If additions to the oaths
as mentioned by Dalmaticus can be coupled with solid
verification mechanisms, then we should be in great shape.
I don't have all the answers here either but am extremely
glad to find out that it is being worked on.

>
> 4-To expound upon some recent posts proposing group-level organization;
> and in particularly to something that Formosanus eloquently stated
> earlier today: The Internet and its related communications mechanisms
> are inherently prone to misinterpretation. While the organization and
> structure of our great nation dictates a large degree of electronic
> communication, it is only a one-dimensional channel at best and MUST
> be augmented with good ol' physical interaction and communication.
> This includes both phone contact and physical gatherings at local/
> provincial/national levels. We need to know one another and must
> be able to put faces and personalities with the plethora of electronic
> content swirling around. Having access to the mail addresses
> of cives can facilitate such gatherings. Another inherent weakness of
> electronic
> communications is that it makes it extremely easy to delete
> undesirable communications, ignore them entirely or state that
> they were never received. I think we've probably all been guilty
> of that at one time or another, certainly including myself.
>

Well, that is all fine and wonderful to state, you will get no arguments
from
me. :) However, its one thing to state it..and entirely different thing to
start doing it. I mean this with sincere respect and no criticism. But, as
one
who has been in NR since She began in March 1998, I have probably spoken to
about 100 citizens on the phone. I have been to at least 10 meetings with
citizens (with more than 1 other citizen). I have planned or contributed to
planning at least 3 of them. I am not that great of a planner when it comes
to
face to face meetings.

OFS: I agree that this is MUCH easier stated than done. As a project
manager, I know that it can be next to impossible to organize face time even
with
co-workers on the same floor or adjacent cube spaces; much less trying
to organize face time across time zones, different languages, job and
life schedules, etc.! This last point you address was really intended
more to address some of the issues and limitations surrounding community.

On the bright side, hopefully my IM database which will be available online
will
make the communication/coordination between individual citizens much more
feasible.

OFS: Looking forward to it! Thanks for all your work on it.

>
> 5-I propose that a chat be established in the coming days or weeks
> with all interested parties to come up with some creative solutions
> to the provincial and communications issues.
>

We had that, it was called Market Days, however, I know that the dates have
been
screwy. Hopefully we can get this reorganized and re-implemented. It was a
good way for those who don't have alot of time to know exactly when people
will
be in the chatroom, beyond the hit and miss many of us tend to experience.
M.
Octavius, can we put on the www.novaroma.org/main.html page, a date showing
the
next market day?

OFS: Is this for a chat time in the Forum Romanum or a different
venue?

I hope my responses were helpful.

OFS: Yes, very helpful. Again, thank you so much for your time and
immense assistance with the all the provincial and other issues.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma

> Vale bene,
> -Oppius Flaccus Severus


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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] State of the Province -America Boreoccidentalis and related topics<long>
From:	"Oppius Flaccus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 15:48:54 -0800

Salvete Consul Germanicus et omnes!

Well, as probably is no surprise at this juncture :-), I'd
like to formally announce gubernatorial bid for the
province of America Boreoccidentalis. Thank you so much
for your willingness to back my bid with the Senate!

Censor Sulla Felix has assisted me greatly in directing
me toward the proper course of
action in pursuing this position, so in the next step I'll
prepare a blueprint for provincial reorganization
and submit it to the Consuls, requesting that it be presented
to the senate. I'll do this in a separate post to the Consular
mail alias (likely though it won't be ready for posting until
tomorrow.) Then we can go from there. If there's anything
else that you can suggest/require to get to the next phase,
please let me know. I'm new to political life in Nova Roma but
eager to learn!

Thank you again for your commendations and support!

Vale bene,
-Oppius Flaccus Severus
-----Original Message-----
From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus [mailto:germanicus@--------]
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 8:52 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: RE: [novaroma] State of the Province -America Boreoccidentalis and
related topics<long>


Salvete;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Smith [mailto:JSmithCSA@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 7:08 AM
>
> This is, indeed, a sad state of affairs. I think you
> have a good plan, and I hope you will become governor
> to right these wrongs. However, there are changes to
> be made that cover more than one province.

I agree completely, and would present a Senatus Consultum making Oppius
Flaccus Severus governor of the America Boreoccidentalis provincia, should
he want the job. It sounds like he has the interest, ideas, and drive to do
a good job.

Well, Oppius Flaccus Severus? Do you want the job?

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org


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