| Subject: |
[novaroma] I've learned something today... |
| From: |
"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 26 Jan 2001 23:19:21 -0000 |
|
Quiritibus salutem
I've learned a lot from reading the Main List today, citizens:
I've learned that the correct form of 'Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?' is 'Cui custodes ipso custodes?';
I've learned that the summum bonum of political endeavour is the American Constitution and Bill of Rights, whose authors were all Republicans;
I've learned that the definitive work on political systems throughout the world, past and present, is a military training manual;
I've learned that what's good for gens Cornelia is good for Nova Roma, and what's bad news for Sulla is bad news for Nova Roma;
And I've learned that the best bit of Roman culture worth talking about all week is "Gladiator".
I really must work harder at recommending NR to the world as the premier organisation for Roman reconstructionism.
Verum agite!
Vado.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] I've learned something today... |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:09:31 -0500 |
|
Salve;
Perhaps if you spent more time making constructive, substantive posts to the
main list rather than sulking and sniping from the shadows, the topics of
conversation here would be more to your liking. If you aren't satisfied with
the way things are here, do something positive to change them! Don't just
post some sarcastic complaint bashing the people who actually try to
contribute. Come on, Vado; let's see your interesting, on-topic, and
worthwhile posts, rather than your bitter complaints.
Vale,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul
"For Graccus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
bad one." (Crassus, in the film "Spartacus")
email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nick Ford [mailto:gens_moravia@--------]
> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 6:19 PM
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] I've learned something today...
>
>
> Quiritibus salutem
>
> I've learned a lot from reading the Main List today, citizens:
>
> I've learned that the correct form of 'Quis custodiet ipsos
> custodes?' is 'Cui custodes ipso custodes?';
>
> I've learned that the summum bonum of political endeavour is the
> American Constitution and Bill of Rights, whose authors were all
> Republicans;
>
> I've learned that the definitive work on political systems
> throughout the world, past and present, is a military training manual;
>
> I've learned that what's good for gens Cornelia is good for Nova
> Roma, and what's bad news for Sulla is bad news for Nova Roma;
>
> And I've learned that the best bit of Roman culture worth talking
> about all week is "Gladiator".
>
> I really must work harder at recommending NR to the world as the
> premier organisation for Roman reconstructionism.
>
> Verum agite!
>
> Vado.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Re: Basilica News |
| From: |
"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:51:02 -0500 |
|
Helena Galeria Manio Villio Limitano S.P.D.
I tried the link you posted & it worked. I was able to search & get back
info :)
Vale
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Yuck |
| From: |
LSergAust@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 26 Jan 2001 23:31:00 EST |
|
Salve L. Sicinius
Both your criticism of my post and your subsequent digression into the
politics of the USA are non sequitur. You are expanding the topic to
cover other matters.
Vale,
L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
On 1/26/01 8:34 AM Lucius Sicinius Drusus (drusus@--------) wrote:
>
>
>Ira Adams wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> And BTW, the USA *isn't* a republic (although that is what it was
>> intended to be) - it's an oligarchy. It is owned and run by the
>> wealthy
>> and influential. The electorate at large is mainly just an occasional
>> inconvenience. Witness how cavalierly the will of the majority was
>> recently bypassed in order to put the candidate of the oligarchs, the
>> acknowledged loser, into the White House.
>>
>
>Salve,
>This isn't the proper forum for discussing the recent US Presidental
>Race in strongly partisan terms.
>
>I will mention it as it affects Nova Roma. The US system for selecting a
>canidate is similar to the Roman system for selecting a Consul. Popular
>vote only matters Within a Century or a State, and the winner of that
>Century/State recives it's vote(s) regardless of wheither they won by a
>single vote or by a landslide. In both the Nova Roman AND the USA system
>it's possible for a canidate to win enough Centuries/States to be
>declaired the winner while failing to carry the majority if all the
>votes in the Centuries/States are added up.
>
>In niether case does this prove a conspiricy. It's simply due to both
>systems being set up so that the winner will have support from many
>segments of the population, rather than being selected by overwhealming
>support from a few large segments.
>
>Vale
>Lucius Sicinius Drusus
>
certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] I've learned something today... |
| From: |
"C. Citius Cattus" <plunder@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 27 Jan 2001 01:21:03 -0600 |
|
Nick Ford wrote:
>
> I've learned that the summum bonum of political endeavour is the American Constitution and Bill of Rights, whose authors were all Republicans;
>
?
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] I've learned something today... |
| From: |
"Quintus Augustus" <quintus@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 27 Jan 2001 09:44:35 -0500 |
|
....My two sesterii.....
I think Vado and Flavius have valid points. I have been a citizen for
a few months, and i have seen many a good debate here on the list. I
have been one of those lurking in the shadows, as my knowledge of Rome's
politics is small but i *am* learning (until finding Nova Roma, i DESPISED
politics). I have noticed that as of late the flavor of posts have (in
some cases, NOT all!) switched to a more personal attack rather than
healthy debate. i have read that the Romans of old were a rather tough-skinned
lot, which would lead me to believe that a personal quip would and should
be a glancing blow, not leaving a bruise. If we get slammed, i suggest
it be ignored, and keep any replies (or posts) that are full of negative,
destructive energies off the list. Anyone that wants to play those games,
can do it one-to-one, not here.
We DO need to keep the posts on a productive platform, and leave the
ego's out of it! If what i have read here is true, we have hundreds of
new citizens out there, many lurking in the shadows, getting their first
taste of us. I really like what i see here - a massive group of people,
citizens, all bent on one goal - to see the rebirth of the greatest empire
(republic?)this world has ever known, and streching across the Globe!
I feel out ancesters would approve!
This is, of course not happening with everybody. I am not a politician,
just a simple soldier who loves NovaRoma, and wants to see her flourish.
i send this post with all due repect to my brethren, and leaders, for
i am but a student of Roma antiqua at this point - far from an expert!
Salvete!
Q. AVG.
--
Quintus Augustus
Citizen of Nova Roma
quintus@-------- - email
(212) 894-3746 x9127 - voicemail/fax
"....semper ubi sub ubi......"
__________________________________________________
FREE voicemail, email, and fax...all in one place.
Sign Up Now! http://www.onebox.com
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Governorship of Germania |
| From: |
Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:48:48 +0100 |
|
Praetor Caius Flavius Diocletianus Quiritbus S.P.D.
Citizens, I´m standing before you to announce my candidacy for the
Governorship of the Germania Provincia.
After the first request for candidates, issued by our honourable Consul
on January 22th, I declared my candidacy directly to the Senate. Now,
after the second request, I do the same here in the public main list.
Citizens, my curriculum vitae and my qualifications were published
during the last election campaign.
Since the current Propraetor Marcus Marcius Rex declared his
resignation, I would be honoured to become his successor. I served our
Res Publica as Legatus Germaniae since June 2753, so I´m directly
involved in the province´s affairs and businesses. Now, I hope that the
Senate consider me suitable to continue the most successful work of my
dear friend and current praetorian scriba Marcus Marcius Rex.
Valete, Quirites
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Praetor, Senator
Legatus Germaniae
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] De satirarum scribendi cacoethes |
| From: |
"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:17:53 -0000 |
|
Ave Flavi Vedi salveteque populares
Dixit mihi Flavius Vedius:
>Perhaps if you spent more time making constructive, substantive posts to
the
>main list rather than sulking and sniping from the shadows, the topics of
>conversation here would be more to your liking. If you aren't satisfied
with
>the way things are here, do something positive to change them! Don't just
>post some sarcastic complaint bashing the people who actually try to
>contribute. Come on, Vado; let's see your interesting, on-topic, and
>worthwhile posts, rather than your bitter complaints.
Respondeo: This, Germanice, is a rather more polite admonition than what you
treated me to in the Taberna last night, and rather less unbalanced, too -
so I'll respond to this, rather than the other.
Nobody likes criticism. Everyone likes his own posts. Stercum cuique suum
bene olet (each man thinks his faeces fragrant). I have lately been not as
active as I would like, because of various pressures and difficulties
outside NR. As I remarked in the Taberna last night, troubles outside NR
often make one less tolerant of what one dislikes within NR. My post was
meant to be satirical, and it isn't always intended primarily to get a
laugh. I think, if Iuvenal were alive and posting to this list, you'd have
reacted in exactly the same way. Of course you are perfectly entitled not to
like Iuvenal, and not to like Vado, and not to consider where either is
coming from.
You, too, have had your troubles, causing you to retire somewhat from public
life for a while, only to return with voluble criticisms and what I thought
were some rather insensitive put-downs of others. You then tried to change
things to your liking: you stood for election as Consul. So did I. You were
elected. I wasn't. Now you can accuse me of sulking in the shadows all you
like. I have many things to do outside NR at the moment, but I promise you
and everyone else that I shall have some constructive things to say when
circumstances permit, both here and in the Senate, and in the Sodalis
Egressus. And I shall also be doing my little best to restore some cultural
Romanitas to this list - which, despite the formation of many sodales of
diverse Roman cultural interests, still deserves better than what it's
carried lately, because after the NR website, it's usually the most
prominent thing NR has to offer that the rest of the world sees (along with
the Taberna chat room). We should all remember this when we post here.
Right now I have to disappear for the rest of the weekend, but I'll be back
(divis volentibus) with something of the kind that's been too long absent in
this forum. Until then,
Bene valete,
Vado.
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: I've learned something today... |
| From: |
pjane@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:16:29 -0000 |
|
> I've learned a lot from reading the Main List today, citizens:
As I said to several people when I was Curatrix Sermonem, the way to
have a conversation about something that interests you is to introduce
an interesting topic. Anyone? Vado?
P. Cassia
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] The Law Idea |
| From: |
LucillaCornelia@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 27 Jan 2001 14:59:09 -0500 |
|
Salvete Quirites:
In support of my esteemed soror, Pompeia's, astute observations, I entreat
all Civites to consider Sulla's proposed leges as a call to examine further
how the best interests of the Res Publica may be served, for this was the
spirit in which my Pater introduced his ideas. Sulla has consistently
demonstrated his devotion to upholding the Res Publica by his actions and
tireless work on behalf of Nova Roma. His every effort has been to provide
for the rights and welfare of all NR Quirites. His ideas regarding this
proposed legislation are borne out of the same committment to Romanitas and
to our fair nation.
The thought and intent behind Sulla's proposal and the departure from Gens
Cornelia of Livia (now Marcia) are two entirely separate issues and need to
be considered as such.
Additionally, the recent misfortune within our Gens is a matter that has been
discussed within Gens Cornelia; discourse on this matter should have stayed
within Gens Cornelia or, at most, within and between Gens Cornelia and
Gens Marcia. I am at a loss to explain why NR members outside Gens Cornelia
feel compelled to continue to post allusions to circumstances and events that
may or may not have transpired, yet offer no basis in fact, no hard evidence
to support their allegations.
This infighting needs to stop.
Indeed, unless one has a priori knowledge of events, posting
hearsay and baseless accusations to the Main List is counterproductive and,
as Pompeia so aptly notes,
hurtful. Putting matters public that involve a very small group of Civites
turns things into a "he said/she said" and needlessly makes of a small matter
a larger annoyance to the Res Publica inter alia.
Let us follow Lucius Cornelia Sulla Felix's fine example and focus our
energies on acting to promote the well-being of the Res Publica, because NR
is what is truly important. She is why we are all here.
Concordia parvae res crescunt, discordia maximae dilabuntur.
Vale bene et Pax Deorum,
Prima Lucilla Cornelia Fortunata
novaroma@-------- wrote:
>
> Salvete Omnes:
>
> Just a few brief comments regarding the recent "Law Idea" and the recent
and
> unfortunate events concerning Corneliae. A couple of things I want to get
> off my chest.
>
> As was alluded to today in an earlier post by Livia Marcia, there has been
> discussion in gens Cornelia. There has indeed....lots of it.....Concern
and
> compassion expressed for Livia, and support of Sulla, who admitted to his
> gens that his decision was a hasty one, but admitted so and attempted
> reconcilitation and mediation. And, I will say, that although Livia is in
> another gens, I wish her and Sulla well in what I hope are some continuing
> efforts to come to an amicable understanding.
>
> Although "who" said "what" in gens discussions is not for forum ears,
enough
> Cornelians have posted here recently in favour of atleast looking at this
> law idea regarding IM conversations. Why? Because one of the themes of
our
> gens discussion was "What can we do to keep such dreadful circumstances
from
> happening again?" This incident has caused an awful lot of hurt, and nobody
> needs this. Several ideas were discussed this weekend, out of concern for
> Livia, out of concern for Sulla, and out of concern for all NR civites.
>
> So this "Law Idea" that has been presented by Sulla, is in response to
> expressed concerns of members of Corneliae that we should work to prevent
> future mishaps.
>
> It has been hypothesized in the forum today that Sulla is trying to
"cover"
> his tracks for something in his political agenda in the suggestion of a law
> which would prevent the misuse of a person's private IM conversations. I do
> not see any proof of this, so in my view, it remains a hypothesis. With due
> respect, it serves no positive purpose to render such sentiment in the
> absence of proof.
>
> This law idea, in essence, is an idea which sprouted from Gens Cornelia
> dialogue: it is an issue of social concern, not political agenda.
>
>
>
> Bene valete et Pax,
> Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
> Gens Cornelia
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>
--
Prima Lucilla Cornelia Fortunata
__________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: I've learned something today... |
| From: |
Michel Loos <loos@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 26 Jan 2001 16:00:40 -0200 |
|
pjane@-------- wrote:
>
> > I've learned a lot from reading the Main List today, citizens:
>
> As I said to several people when I was Curatrix Sermonem, the way to
> have a conversation about something that interests you is to introduce
> an interesting topic. Anyone? Vado?
Well I really learned something and it is important for all discussions
in this forum.
It does not matter if a rose's name is rose as long as you can smell it.
When you are on the other end of the world and somebody describes a rose
calling it a tulip you can be in serious troubles trying to understand
why he says tulips have spines.
Yesterday we saw that there are at least to definitions for the word
"democracy"
a US-republican one and a non-US one which mean 2 totally different
things, since no US-democrat spoke I don t know if they have a third one
or us the non-US one.
This can have a big influence on the misunderstandings on this Forum,
there is no need for me to get upset by the anti-democracy statements of
a US-republican, he is not attacking what I call democracy, and
reciprocally he should not get upset when i make a pro-democracy
statement since my democracy is much nearer to what he calls a republic
then to what he calls a democracy.
If we all perceive that fact, discussions could get more constructiove
for Nova Roma.
Vale,
Manius Villius limitanus.
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] The Law Idea (a bit long) |
| From: |
Mike Macnair <MikeMacnair@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:17:24 -0500 |
|
Salvete!
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo wrote,
> Cornelians have posted here recently in favour of atleast looking at this
> law idea regarding IM conversations. Why? Because one of the themes of
our
> gens discussion was "What can we do to keep such dreadful circumstances
from
> happening again?" This incident has caused an awful lot of hurt, and
nobody
> needs this. Several ideas were discussed this weekend, out of concern for
> Livia, out of concern for Sulla, and out of concern for all NR civites.
>
> So this "Law Idea" that has been presented by Sulla, is in response to
> expressed concerns of members of Corneliae that we should work to prevent
> future mishaps.
>
OK, so let's think about confidentiality and evidence rules in the light of
Roman and macronational experience.
1. In Roman law of the classical period (i.e. the Republic and early
Empire) there were no exclusionary rules of evidence in legal proceedings
at all. The exception which proves the rule is the Leges Pompeia (51 BCE)
and Julia (Caesar, not Augustus) de vi, which excluded evidence of the
accused's good character given by members of the accused's family or
produced in the form of letters to the Court. The development of elaborate
evidence rules began in the later Empire; though some of Hadrian's
rescripts were cited in this connection by later compilers, they mainly
offer "common sense advice" to provincial governors. Fixed evidence rules
seem, in fact, to be closely associated with centralising statism: they
emerged in the 12th C. CE with the centralising campaigns of the Papacy in
the Catholic Church, in the later middle ages and C16 in connection with
the rise of absolute monarchy - so, too, in late C16-early C17 England,
originally in part as a device by which judges could control the jury.
2. In modern English law, and I guess also in American law, nothing is
confidential unless it's either (a) made so by agreement between the
participants in the conversation or exchange of letters, or (b) concerns
matters in their nature confidential, such as commercial secrets, sexual
relations/ illness etc. Otherwise, it would very rarely be possible to
prove the existence or terms of a contract where either party refused to
release the evidence (which would be the natural tactic of the party the
evidence worked against).
3. Again in modern law, there is "no confidence in iniquity". This is
one of the oldest rules about confidentiality, dating back to C17 when it
was limited to legal advice etc. Again, the reason is obvious: it must be
allowed for a participant in a fraud or criminal conspiracy to tell the
prosecutors and the court about the (obviously secret) conversations, etc.,
through which the conspiracy was conducted.
It's unfortunate that Sulla and other members of Gens Cornelia were led to
ventilate this issue outside the context where it is appropriate, i.e. what
rules we should adopt for legal proceedings. A blanket rule excluding IM
conversations from evidence on the basis that they are confidential would
have very wide and undesirable consequences for any legal procedures we set
up for NR. Tight definitions of confidential material and appropriate
exceptions would be essential for any law adopted, and the surrounding
context would be important.
Valete
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Question about Roman Scutum |
| From: |
"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:53:35 -0000 |
|
Salvete Novae Romae et Sodales Militarium:
I have a rather trivial question about the Roman shield which I cannot seem
to locate an answer for. It's unfortunate that this curiosity of mine did
not surface when I was at Roman Days last year. I have looked at some sites
and asked a couple of reenactors, and they cannot answer me.
Maybe you can.........
Imagine if you will......A Roman shield.....not the oval Republican style,
but the square shield. I understand shields varied from cohort to cohort
sometimes, but on many shields I you see arrows pointing up at all four
corners, from the center of the shield. which a couple of sources tell me
represent the thunderbolts of Iuppiter Optimus Maximus.
Ok, pointing northwise and southwise, from the centre of the shield are
often long, triangular projections, which look to me like the horn of an
animal......now I don't believe in Unicorns but that is what it looks
like...........:)
What are these projections representative of?
I know this is a trivial question, but I am quite anxious to know and can't
seem to find out.
Valete,
Pompeia Cornelia
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Governorship of Germania |
| From: |
gmvick32@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:38:20 -0700 |
|
Salvete, Quirities:
I stand here today in support of the candidacy of Praetor
Caius Flavius Diocletianus for the governorship of the
Germania Provincia.
I have had the chance to work closely with Diocletianus on
building a website for the Sodalitas Militarium. The work
on this site is primarily his. He has also been primarily
responsible for day-to-day affairs in Germania to-date, such
as the building of the Germania website and as liasion to
the Limes Cooperation. Despite all his hard work, he still
has managed to find the time and graciousness to help me
improve my German, a truly herculanean task. I find
Diocletianus to be among the most charming and friendly of
Nova Romans.
It would be a privilege to count Diocletianus among my
propraetorial peers.
Valete,
Livia Marcia Aurelia
Propraetrix, America Austroccidentalis
Caius Flavius Diocletianus wrote:
> Praetor Caius Flavius Diocletianus Quiritbus S.P.D.
>
> Citizens, I´m standing before you to announce my candidacy
> for the
> Governorship of the Germania Provincia.
>
> After the first request for candidates, issued by our
> honourable Consul
> on January 22th, I declared my candidacy directly to the
> Senate. Now,
> after the second request, I do the same here in the public
> main list.
>
> Citizens, my curriculum vitae and my qualifications were
> published
> during the last election campaign.
>
> Since the current Propraetor Marcus Marcius Rex declared
> his
> resignation, I would be honoured to become his successor.
> I served our
> Res Publica as Legatus Germaniae since June 2753, so I´m
> directly
> involved in the province´s affairs and businesses. Now, I
> hope that the
> Senate consider me suitable to continue the most
> successful work of my
> dear friend and current praetorian scriba Marcus Marcius
> Rex.
>
> Valete, Quirites
>
> Caius Flavius Diocletianus
> Praetor, Senator
> Legatus Germaniae
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
www. .com
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Governorship of Germania |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:53:30 -0500 |
|
Salvete;
Just a reminder concerning procedure; provincial governorships are not
decided by popular vote, they are assigned by the Senate. While there's
nothing wrong with garnering popular support when one is under consideration
for governorship of a provincium, such energies might be better spent
addressing the Senate.
Having said that, I too believe Caius Flavius Diocletianus will do an
outstanding job as governor of Germania provincia, and am confident that my
fellow Senatores will appoint him to the position.
Valete,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul
"For Graccus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
bad one." (Crassus, in the film "Spartacus")
email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
|
