Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Governorship of Germania
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sun, 28 Jan 2001 00:00:37 -0000

Salvete Senator Senator Caius Flavius Diocletianus et Quirites Nova Roma:

I am very pleased, Senator, that you have elected to stand for the office of
Propraetorship of Germania.

Based on my associations with you over the past months, particularily in
Militarium, I find you hardworking, dedicated, efficient, and sincerely
interested in the growth of our Republic.

I think you would make a fine governor for Germania.

Bene Valete,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
Propraetrix, Canada Orientalis
Nova Roma


>From: Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------, nrgermania@egroups.de
>Subject: [novaroma] Governorship of Germania
>Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:48:48 +0100
>
>Praetor Caius Flavius Diocletianus Quiritbus S.P.D.
>
>Citizens, I´m standing before you to announce my candidacy for the
>Governorship of the Germania Provincia.
>
>After the first request for candidates, issued by our honourable Consul
>on January 22th, I declared my candidacy directly to the Senate. Now,
>after the second request, I do the same here in the public main list.
>
>Citizens, my curriculum vitae and my qualifications were published
>during the last election campaign.
>
>Since the current Propraetor Marcus Marcius Rex declared his
>resignation, I would be honoured to become his successor. I served our
>Res Publica as Legatus Germaniae since June 2753, so I´m directly
>involved in the province´s affairs and businesses. Now, I hope that the
>Senate consider me suitable to continue the most successful work of my
>dear friend and current praetorian scriba Marcus Marcius Rex.
>
>Valete, Quirites
>
>Caius Flavius Diocletianus
>Praetor, Senator
>Legatus Germaniae
>
>
>

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Subject:	[Fwd: [novaroma] Poem to the Old City]
From:	Piparskegg UllRsson <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Sat, 27 Jan 2001 13:39:15 -0600

Ok,

Since we have an opinion or two out there that the list is lacking content other than politics and
interpersonal content.
How about a repost of something I sent several days ago, which seems to have gotten lost in the fog?

As I've stated elsewhere, mining the past for ideas and inspiration is well and good, but if we
don't add, our progeny WILL forget our efforts. I am looking for comments, critiques, criticism,
additions, etceteras!!!

Venator wrote:
>
> Avete,
>
> Here's a short ode to my impression of the "legendary" beginnings of Rome.
>
> To a New Rome
>
> The Hand Of Mars Reached Down One Day
> To Choose A Tribe To Call His Own
> By Seven Hills In Rustic Huts
> Amidst Their Herds They Made Their Lives
>
> A Latin Folk Both Proud And Strong
> Quirinius Inspired Them
> To Scale The Mounts And Build Thereon
> This Small, Rude Start Grew Into More
>
> A Foreign Folk Became Their Kings
> All Things Went Well For Long And Long
> More Gods Were Met Rites Learned, Shrines Built
> More Ways Came In A Dark Seed Fell
>
> And Bitter Grew Their Hearts To Them
> Farmers, Herdsmen, Craftsmen Took Sword
> This People Fought Threw Off The Yoke
> Of Foreign King Took Future's Reins
>
> This Hardy Folk In Forum Spoke
> They Made Their Law The Orders Set
> By Gens And Tribe By Deed And Word
> Set Hand To Fate Created Rome
>

--
===========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis, Benedicte Omnes!
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Cives, Paterfamilias Gens Ulleria
Legate, Dominus Sodalis
My homestead
http://www.geocities.com/piparskegg/index.html
Nova Roma website
http://www.novaroma.org/main.html
Sodalis pro Coqueror et Coquus
http://www.egroups.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq

Subject:	[novaroma] The Law Idea
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Fri, 26 Jan 2001 02:16:50 -0000

Salvete Omnes:

Just a few brief comments regarding the recent "Law Idea" and the recent and
unfortunate events concerning Corneliae. A couple of things I want to get
off my chest.

As was alluded to today in an earlier post by Livia Marcia, there has been
discussion in gens Cornelia. There has indeed....lots of it.....Concern and
compassion expressed for Livia, and support of Sulla, who admitted to his
gens that his decision was a hasty one, but admitted so and attempted
reconcilitation and mediation. And, I will say, that although Livia is in
another gens, I wish her and Sulla well in what I hope are some continuing
efforts to come to an amicable understanding.

Although "who" said "what" in gens discussions is not for forum ears, enough
Cornelians have posted here recently in favour of atleast looking at this
law idea regarding IM conversations. Why? Because one of the themes of our
gens discussion was "What can we do to keep such dreadful circumstances from
happening again?" This incident has caused an awful lot of hurt, and nobody
needs this. Several ideas were discussed this weekend, out of concern for
Livia, out of concern for Sulla, and out of concern for all NR civites.

So this "Law Idea" that has been presented by Sulla, is in response to
expressed concerns of members of Corneliae that we should work to prevent
future mishaps.

It has been hypothesized in the forum today that Sulla is trying to "cover"
his tracks for something in his political agenda in the suggestion of a law
which would prevent the misuse of a person's private IM conversations. I do
not see any proof of this, so in my view, it remains a hypothesis. With due
respect, it serves no positive purpose to render such sentiment in the
absence of proof.

This law idea, in essence, is an idea which sprouted from Gens Cornelia
dialogue: it is an issue of social concern, not political agenda.



Bene valete et Pax,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
Gens Cornelia




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Law Idea
From:	tekwkp@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:37:12 EST

Stated with elegance Soror. Thank you!

Lentulus Cornelius Drusus

Subject:	[novaroma] Conversion from Egroups to Yahoo
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sun, 28 Jan 2001 00:44:57 -0000

Salvete Nova Romani:

I don't know if you have noticed (I certainly have!) that posts from Nova
Roma are being delivered rather "hit and miss" to individual mailboxes. I
am receiving stuff from yesterday, or not at all, and I know other lists
have had the same problems. For the next couple of days, I would recommend
reading the posts at the Yahoo site, if you do not already.

Also, it would be a good idea to make sure you are still subscribed to the
Egroups lists you were before the conversion to Yahoo. In processes like
these, people have been known to be "unsubbed" somehow, although I cannot
explain the technical reasons myself. As moderator for Egressus and
Militarium, I had one such incident.

Just a word to the wise........

Pompeia Cornelia





_________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Governorship of Germania
From:	gmvick32@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:13:22 -0700

Of course, Germanicus is right. The governorship is not
considered by vote. Consider this nothing more than a show
of moral support.

Livia


Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:

> Salvete;
>
> Just a reminder concerning procedure; provincial
> governorships are not
> decided by popular vote, they are assigned by the Senate.
> While there's
> nothing wrong with garnering popular support when one is
> under consideration
> for governorship of a provincium, such energies might be
> better spent
> addressing the Senate.
>
> Having said that, I too believe Caius Flavius Diocletianus
> will do an
> outstanding job as governor of Germania provincia, and am
> confident that my
> fellow Senatores will appoint him to the position.
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
> "For Graccus, hatred of the Patrician class is a
> profession, and not such a
> bad one." (Crassus, in the film "Spartacus")
>
> email: germanicus@--------
> AIM: Flavius Vedius
> www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor


www. .com


>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] Yahoo and egroups
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:01:58 -0800

Ave Citizens

As many of you know egroups is no more. To get anything done now...we
all must convert our accounts from Egroups to Yahoo. If you go to this
link: http://groups.yahoo.com/local/news.html and click on "Converte
my eGroups Account." It will take you to another screen and it will ask
you for your egroups username (the email addy) and your password.

Once you do that. It will ask you to enter your CURRENT yahoo ID. If
you have one. If you dont have one you will have to register a new
one. And upon that completion you will have successfully converted your
egroups account to Yahoo.

I hope this post will help you in the conversion process. If you have
any issues, please feel free to contact me.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Conversion from Egroups to Yahoo
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:22:05 -0600

28 Jan 2001

Salve Pompeia

As a matter of fact, I am doing most of my posting on the lists website, as
I have found that I was missing posts of getting them late!

Vale

Quintus Sertorius

Propraetor
Canada Occidentalis
quintus-sertorius@--------

Join the egroup for Canada Occidentalis
http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_CanOcc

Join the Sertorii egroup.
http://www.egroups.com/group/Sertorii


----- Original Message -----
From: "Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
To: <NovaRoma@-------->
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 6:44 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Conversion from Egroups to Yahoo


> Salvete Nova Romani:
>
> I don't know if you have noticed (I certainly have!) that posts from Nova
> Roma are being delivered rather "hit and miss" to individual mailboxes. I
> am receiving stuff from yesterday, or not at all, and I know other lists
> have had the same problems. For the next couple of days, I would recommend
> reading the posts at the Yahoo site, if you do not already.
>
> Also, it would be a good idea to make sure you are still subscribed to the
> Egroups lists you were before the conversion to Yahoo. In processes like
> these, people have been known to be "unsubbed" somehow, although I cannot
> explain the technical reasons myself. As moderator for Egressus and
> Militarium, I had one such incident.
>
> Just a word to the wise........
>
> Pompeia Cornelia
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>
>
>
>
>

Subject:	[novaroma] Greetings!
From:	qimaster@--------
Date:	Sun, 28 Jan 2001 02:01:23 -0000

Hiya! & Salve!

I have just joined this group, and just finished my citizen
application. My name is Rich Mooney, I live in Wichita Falls, Texas.
My homepage is http://www.geocities.com/sijai2000.

My wife and I are professional martial arts instructors. I have been
training since the age of ten, and have thirty years of experience.
My wife has been doing tai chi for 6 years. We met in a martial arts
chat room:)

I always have had an interest in ancient roman things, and have built
up a small collection of denarii from various periods, mostly from
the time of gordian III, a few from vespasian, and some greek ones as
well.

Since I am retired army, I have missed the camraderie I used to enjoy
as an NCO. I hope to find a group to join, and to contribute what I
am able.

anyone may contact me at my email or msg me on icq at 5218134 if you
wanna chat.

Thanks!

sincerely;

Rich Mooney (until I get my roman name squared away and approved)

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Conversion from Egroups to Yahoo
From:	tekwkp@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:03:58 EST

Salve Quintus Sertorius,

I have spent a grueling half day converting over. No picnic. Yahoo is not
exactly user friendly, one needs a lot of patience. After all was said &
done, we took off for a change of scenery a few miles south of here to visit
the restored Water Temple, something I mentioned to my Pater. It is a
beautiful Greco-Roman, round temple. Built in a time where money was no
object for building such things. White marble, with columns. The only thing
missing was Romans in traditional 'garb! We love it.

Valete, Honorable Quintus,

Lentulus Cornelius Drusus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Greetings!
From:	tekwkp@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:14:45 EST

Welcome to Nova Roma! I hope it will be a terrific, meaningful experience to
you, in all ways. The citizenship contains many varied souls. United by a
common cause, a cause important to us. We enjoy the restoration, recreation
of a long lost civilization, not withstanding some cross fire, differing
opinions, from time to time. A meaningful in all ways affiliation.

Salve,

Lentulus Cornelius Drusus

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Greetings!
From:	qimaster@--------
Date:	Sun, 28 Jan 2001 02:28:37 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, tekwkp@a... wrote:
> Welcome to Nova Roma! I hope it will be a terrific, meaningful
experience to
> you, in all ways.

Thanks:) I hope so too:)

>The citizenship contains many varied souls. United by a
> common cause, a cause important to us. We enjoy the restoration,
>recreation
> of a long lost civilization, not withstanding some cross fire,
differing
> opinions, from time to time. A meaningful in all ways affiliation.

diversity is what makes the world go round:) I saw a lot of ways
people live while in the Army, in all sorts of places. It's a good
thing:)

Salve!

Rich Mooney

>
> Salve,
>
> Lentulus Cornelius Drusus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Greetings!
From:	tekwkp@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:35:32 EST

Again, welcome! You will have no problem in selecting a Roman name. The menu
will give you many terrific choices. They're inspiring!

Lentulus Cornelius Drusus

Subject:	[novaroma] Sceptrum?
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:41:20 -0500

Salvete,

A quick question for you all. I had occasion to watch "Spartacus" the other
night, and was wondering about the short baton with the Eagle on top carried
"as a symbol of the authority of the Senate". I was just wondering if this
is actually an historical thing (perhaps as a symbol of Imperium?) and if so
what would it be called/ what was its function/ what did it really look
like. The best name I can come up with for it, based merely on my Latin
dictionary, is sceptrum. Or perhaps it was merely a Hollywood invention. As
I recall there was a "Baton of Victory" in "Ben Hur" as well...

Anyone have any information on this ellusive baton of authority?

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

"For Graccus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
bad one." (Crassus, in the film "Spartacus")

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Greetings!
From:	qimaster@--------
Date:	Sun, 28 Jan 2001 03:43:34 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, tekwkp@a... wrote:
> Again, welcome! You will have no problem in selecting a Roman name.
The menu
> will give you many terrific choices. They're inspiring!
>
> Lentulus Cornelius Drusus


I have chosen a name:

Theodorus Tiberius Germanicus

It just has to be approved I guess:)

Theodorus for my Father's first name (and my confirmation name
when I participated in the activities of the RC Church), Tiberius
cause he was a caesar, and germanicus for my hertiage and the time I
spent there as a soldier with the 3rd infantry division in
schweinfurt, kitzingen and wurzburg.

Thanks for the welcome:)

I am very anxious to get accepted and join a local (local being a
relative term... a sense of belonging matters very much:) group.

Rich Mooney

aka (hopefully)

Theodorus Tiberius Germanicus

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Greetings!
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:48:41 -0500

Salvete;

As long as Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus (paterfamilias of gens Tiberia) has no
objections, welcome aboard, Theodorus Tiberius Germanicus! Wonderful choice
of cognomen, by the way. ;-)

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

"For Graccus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
bad one." (Crassus, in the film "Spartacus")

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

> -----Original Message-----
> From: qimaster@-------- [mailto:qimaster@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 10:44 PM
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: Greetings!
>
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, tekwkp@a... wrote:
> > Again, welcome! You will have no problem in selecting a Roman name.
> The menu
> > will give you many terrific choices. They're inspiring!
> >
> > Lentulus Cornelius Drusus
>
>
> I have chosen a name:
>
> Theodorus Tiberius Germanicus
>
> It just has to be approved I guess:)
>
> Theodorus for my Father's first name (and my confirmation name
> when I participated in the activities of the RC Church), Tiberius
> cause he was a caesar, and germanicus for my hertiage and the time I
> spent there as a soldier with the 3rd infantry division in
> schweinfurt, kitzingen and wurzburg.
>
> Thanks for the welcome:)
>
> I am very anxious to get accepted and join a local (local being a
> relative term... a sense of belonging matters very much:) group.
>
> Rich Mooney
>
> aka (hopefully)
>
> Theodorus Tiberius Germanicus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Sceptrum?
From:	qimaster@--------
Date:	Sun, 28 Jan 2001 03:59:46 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...>
wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> A quick question for you all. I had occasion to watch "Spartacus"
the other
> night, and was wondering about the short baton with the Eagle on
top carried
> "as a symbol of the authority of the Senate". I was just wondering
if this
> is actually an historical thing (perhaps as a symbol of Imperium?)
and if so
> what would it be called/ what was its function/ what did it really
look
> like. The best name I can come up with for it, based merely on my
Latin
> dictionary, is sceptrum. Or perhaps it was merely a Hollywood
invention. As
> I recall there was a "Baton of Victory" in "Ben Hur" as well...
>
> Anyone have any information on this ellusive baton of authority?
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul


this is what I have found:

written by:
Barbara McManus (bmcmanus@--------)

Victorious generals received the most tangible awards as well as the
highest honors. They frequently set up a trophy (tropaeum) in a
prominent location, displaying enemy shields, weapons, and armor
captured in battle. Generals could also claim the largest share of
the booty and spoils from conquered cities and tribes, including
captives who could be sold into slavery. These could include women
and children, though the most prominent captives, such as chieftains
or rulers, would be retained to march in the general's triumphal
procession, with the possibility of subsequent execution. The
greatest reward of all was the triumph (triumphus), an elaborate
procession through the city of Rome to Jupiter's temple on the
Capitoline hill. During the Republic a triumph could be awarded only
to a victorious general (who was termed imperator or triumphator)
upon permission of the Senate; during the Empire, triumphs were
reserved for the emperor or members of the imperial family. The
procession began with hornblowers and priests and sacrificial
animals, usually pure white bulls raised especially for such
occasions. Next came bearers carrying masses of booty and spoils and
chained captives, the more prominent, the better. At the end of the
procession marched the victorious soldiers in parade dress, followed
by the lictors, senators, and the imperator himself. For this
occasion he was dressed in gilded shoes and purple garments
embroidered with gold (the tunica palmata and the toga picta). He
rode in a special gilded chariot pulled by 4 horses; he carried a
small ivory scepter topped with the image of an eagle and wore a
crown of laurel leaves. Since all these trappings put the triumphator
in a godlike position, behind him in the chariot stood a public slave
who held a gold crown over his head and repeatedly reminded him that
he was only a mortal. Triumphs were so significant that they were
often represented on coins and other objects, such as this coin of
Sulla, a coin of Octavian, a cameo of an emperor (probably Hadrian)
whose chariot is pulled by eagles and whose head is crowned by the
goddess Roma, and even a honey-cake mold depicting the triumph of
Marcus Aurelius, whose head is crowned by a winged victory.


go here:

http://www.vroma.org/~bmcmanus/romanarmy_images.html

and here:

http://www.vroma.org/~bmcmanus/romanarmy2.html

also:

http://www.vroma.org/~bmcmanus/romanarmy_sources.html

and lastly (yeah... right...)

http://www.vroma.org/images/image_search.html


rich mooney

Subject:	[novaroma] Greetings and Thanks
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sun, 28 Jan 2001 04:23:10 -0000

Salvete Rich Mooney et al:

Greetings and welcome to the Nova Roma Forum! Thanks for the excellent
military links. I am an amateur military history buff. When you obtain
citizenship, you might want to consider joining the Sodalitas Militarium :)

And this goes for anyone already in Nova Roma with an interest in the Roman
Military :)

Valete Bene,
Pompeia Cornelia

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: I've learned something today...
From:	"C. Citius Cattus" <plunder@-------->
Date:	Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:30:20 -0600

I am not a Republican and I actually take some offense for being called
that.
Also, I believe this discussion has ended?

Cordially,
C. Citius Cattus



Michel Loos wrote:
>
> Well I really learned something and it is important for all discussions
> in this forum.
> It does not matter if a rose's name is rose as long as you can smell it.
> When you are on the other end of the world and somebody describes a rose
> calling it a tulip you can be in serious troubles trying to understand
> why he says tulips have spines.
>
> Yesterday we saw that there are at least to definitions for the word
> "democracy"
> a US-republican one and a non-US one which mean 2 totally different
> things, since no US-democrat spoke I don t know if they have a third one
> or us the non-US one.
>
> This can have a big influence on the misunderstandings on this Forum,
> there is no need for me to get upset by the anti-democracy statements of
> a US-republican, he is not attacking what I call democracy, and
> reciprocally he should not get upset when i make a pro-democracy
> statement since my democracy is much nearer to what he calls a republic
> then to what he calls a democracy.
>
> If we all perceive that fact, discussions could get more constructiove
> for Nova Roma.
>
> Vale,
>
> Manius Villius limitanus.

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Greetings!
From:	Piparskegg UllRsson <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:58:55 -0600

Salus et Fortuna!

qimaster@-------- wrote:
>
> Hiya! & Salve!
>
> I have just joined this group, and just finished my citizen
> application. My name is Rich Mooney, I live in Wichita Falls, Texas.
>
> (excision)
>
> Thanks!
>
> sincerely;
>
> Rich Mooney (until I get my roman name squared away and approved)
>

Hey Rich, I spent a year in Wichita Falls one month in 1983. ;-)
I went to Pavements Maintenance Tech School at Sheppard.

Welcome to Nova Roma, good to see another veteran get involved.
In case you're interested, I "dominate" the Brewers' and Cooks' group,
and the hall is always open to new members.

--
===========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis, Benedicte Omnes!
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Cives, Paterfamilias Gens Ulleria
Legate, Dominus Sodalis
My homestead
http://www.geocities.com/piparskegg/index.html
Nova Roma website
http://www.novaroma.org/main.html
Sodalis pro Coqueror et Coquus
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Greetings!
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 28 Jan 2001 00:13:19 -0500

Salve;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Piparskegg UllRsson [mailto:catamount_grange@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 11:59 PM
>
> Hey Rich, I spent a year in Wichita Falls one month in 1983. ;-)
> I went to Pavements Maintenance Tech School at Sheppard.

So the Air Force has a whole school devoted to filling potholes.

I shudder at the state of our military.

Even worse, I did my tech school at that very same base (Passenger and
Household Goods Specialist). ;-)

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

"For Graccus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
bad one." (Crassus, in the film "Spartacus")

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: I've learned something today...
From:	LucillaCornelia@--------
Date:	Sun, 28 Jan 2001 00:46:20 -0500

Ave omnes,

In the immortal words of an American icon*: "Can't we all just get along?"


___________________

* Or: One who at least had his 15 minutes . . .


novaroma@-------- wrote:
>
> I am not a Republican and I actually take some offense for being called
> that.
> Also, I believe this discussion has ended?
>
> Cordially,
> C. Citius Cattus
>
>
>
> Michel Loos wrote:
> >
> > Well I really learned something and it is important for all discussions
> > in this forum.
> > It does not matter if a rose's name is rose as long as you can smell it.
> > When you are on the other end of the world and somebody describes a rose
> > calling it a tulip you can be in serious troubles trying to understand
> > why he says tulips have spines.
> >
> > Yesterday we saw that there are at least to definitions for the word
> > "democracy"
> > a US-republican one and a non-US one which mean 2 totally different
> > things, since no US-democrat spoke I don t know if they have a third one
> > or us the non-US one.
> >
> > This can have a big influence on the misunderstandings on this Forum,
> > there is no need for me to get upset by the anti-democracy statements of
> > a US-republican, he is not attacking what I call democracy, and
> > reciprocally he should not get upset when i make a pro-democracy
> > statement since my democracy is much nearer to what he calls a republic
> > then to what he calls a democracy.
> >
> > If we all perceive that fact, discussions could get more constructiove
> > for Nova Roma.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Manius Villius limitanus.
>
--
Prima Lucilla Cornelia Fortunata
__________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/

Subject:	[novaroma] OT: Challenger
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 28 Jan 2001 00:57:28 -0500

Salvete;

What follows is the speech made by Ronald Reagan in regards to the
Challenger tragedy, which occurred exactly 15 years ago today. It has
nothing whatsoever to do with ancient Rome or Nova Roma. Delete it if you
want; read it if you can.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus

------

Ladies and gentlemen, I'd planned to speak to you tonight to report on the
state of the Union, but the events of earlier today have led me to change
those plans. Today is a day for mourning and remembering. Nancy and I are
pained to the core by the tragedy of the shuttle Challenger. We know we
share this pain with all of the people of our country. This is truly a
national loss.

Nineteen years ago, almost to the day, we lost three astronauts in a
terrible accident on the ground. But we've never lost an astronaut in
flight; we've never had a tragedy like this. And perhaps we've forgotten the
courage it took for the crew of the shuttle. But they, the Challenger Seven,
were aware of the dangers, overcame them and did their jobs brilliantly. We
mourn seven heroes: Michael Smith, Dick Scobee, Judith Resnik, Ronald
McNair, Ellison Onizuka, Gregory Jarvis, and Christa McAuliffe. We mourn
their loss as a nation together.

[To] the families of the seven: we cannot bear, as you do, the full impact
of this tragedy. But we feel the loss, and we're thinking about you so very
much. Your loved ones were daring and brave, and they had that special
grace, that special spirit that says, "Give me a challenge, and I'll meet it
with joy." They had a hunger to explore the universe and discover its
truths. They wished to serve, and they did. They served all of us. We've
grown used to wonders in this century. It's hard to dazzle us. But for 25
years the United States space program has been doing just that. We've grown
used to the idea of space, and perhaps we forget that we've only just begun.
We're still pioneers. They, the members of the Challenger crew, were
pioneers.

And I want to say something to the schoolchildren of America who were
watching the live coverage of the shuttle's takeoff. I know it is hard to
understand, but sometimes painful things like this happen. It's all part of
the process of exploration and discovery. It's all part of taking a chance
and expanding man's horizons. The future doesn't belong to the fainthearted;
it belongs to the brave. The Challenger crew was pulling us into the future,
and we'll continue to follow them.

I've always had great faith in and respect for our space program, and what
happened today does nothing to diminish it. We don't hide our space program.
We don't keep secrets and cover things up. We do it all up front and in
public. That's the way freedom is, and we wouldn't change it for a minute.
We'll continue our quest in space. There will be more shuttle flights and
more shuttle crews and, yes, more volunteers, more civilians, more teachers
in space. Nothing ends here; our hopes and our journeys continue. I want to
add that I wish I could talk to every man and woman who works for NASA or
who worked on this mission and tell them: "Your dedication and
professionalism have moved and impressed us for decades. And we know of your
anguish. We share it."

There's a coincidence today. On this day 390 years ago, the great explorer
Sir Francis Drake died aboard ship off the coast of Panama. In his lifetime
the great frontiers were the oceans, and an historian later said, "He lived
by the sea, died on it, and was buried in it." Well today we can say of the
Challenger crew: Their dedication was, like Drake's, complete.

The crew of the space shuttle Challenger honored us by the manner in which
they lived their lives. We will never forget them, nor the last time we saw
them, this morning, as they prepared for their journey and waved goodbye and
"slipped the surly bonds of earth" to "touch the face of God."

-- Ronald Wilson Reagan

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Greetings and Thanks
From:	qimaster@--------
Date:	Sun, 28 Jan 2001 06:04:47 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> Salvete Rich Mooney et al:
>
> Greetings and welcome to the Nova Roma Forum! Thanks for the
excellent
> military links. I am an amateur military history buff. When you
obtain
> citizenship, you might want to consider joining the Sodalitas
Militarium :)
>
> And this goes for anyone already in Nova Roma with an interest in
the Roman
> Military :)
>
> Valete Bene,
> Pompeia Cornelia
>
> ___

I would like that very much. As I am retired US Army, that would be
fun:)

rm

Subject:	Re: [Fwd: [novaroma] Poem to the Old City]
From:	gmvick32@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 Jan 2001 23:43:51 -0700

Livia rouses from her foggy state to comment.

Venator, I'm impressed. You've managed to do a quite decent
job of actually following a pattern of structure such as
you'd expect to find in formal Celtic bardic poetry. I
enjoyed this fine poem, and that's a compliment coming from
me, the poetry snob.

Livia Marcia Aurelia


Piparskegg UllRsson wrote:

> Ok,
>
> Since we have an opinion or two out there that the list is
> lacking content other than politics and
> interpersonal content.
> How about a repost of something I sent several days ago,
> which seems to have gotten lost in the fog?
>
> As I've stated elsewhere, mining the past for ideas and
> inspiration is well and good, but if we
> don't add, our progeny WILL forget our efforts. I am
> looking for comments, critiques, criticism,
> additions, etceteras!!!
>
> Venator wrote:
> >
> > Avete,
> >
> > Here's a short ode to my impression of the "legendary"
> beginnings of Rome.
> >
> > To a New Rome
> >
> > The Hand Of Mars Reached Down One Day
> > To Choose A Tribe To Call His Own
> > By Seven Hills In Rustic Huts
> > Amidst Their Herds They Made Their Lives
> >
> > A Latin Folk Both Proud And Strong
> > Quirinius Inspired Them
> > To Scale The Mounts And Build Thereon
> > This Small, Rude Start Grew Into More
> >
> > A Foreign Folk Became Their Kings
> > All Things Went Well For Long And Long
> > More Gods Were Met Rites Learned, Shrines Built
> > More Ways Came In A Dark Seed Fell
> >
> > And Bitter Grew Their Hearts To Them
> > Farmers, Herdsmen, Craftsmen Took Sword
> > This People Fought Threw Off The Yoke
> > Of Foreign King Took Future's Reins
> >
> > This Hardy Folk In Forum Spoke
> > They Made Their Law The Orders Set
> > By Gens And Tribe By Deed And Word
> > Set Hand To Fate Created Rome
> >
>
> --
> ===========================================
> In Amicus sub Fidelis, Benedicte Omnes!
> - Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
> Cives, Paterfamilias Gens Ulleria
> Legate, Dominus Sodalis
> My homestead
> http://www.geocities.com/piparskegg/index.html
> Nova Roma website
> http://www.novaroma.org/main.html
> Sodalis pro Coqueror et Coquus
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

www.


>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] OT: Challenger
From:	LucillaCornelia@--------
Date:	Sun, 28 Jan 2001 01:33:30 -0500

Ave Consul et quiritibus salutem:

Thank you for this most eloquent and moving post. We sometimes become complacent and forget that service requires bravery; growth is achieved by accepting challenges. Pioneers who went before us realized that growth and progress require sacrifice, and some made the supreme sacrifice in service to their vision of a common good. They had the courage needed to take risks.

Let us remember these pioneers. And give thanks.

Respice post te, mortalem te esse memento.


Vale bene,

Lucilla


novaroma@-------- wrote:
>
> Salvete;
>
> What follows is the speech made by Ronald Reagan in regards to the
> Challenger tragedy, which occurred exactly 15 years ago today. It has
> nothing whatsoever to do with ancient Rome or Nova Roma. Delete it if you
> want; read it if you can.
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus
>
> ------
>
> Ladies and gentlemen, I'd planned to speak to you tonight to report on the
> state of the Union, but the events of earlier today have led me to change
> those plans. Today is a day for mourning and remembering. Nancy and I are
> pained to the core by the tragedy of the shuttle Challenger. We know we
> share this pain with all of the people of our country. This is truly a
> national loss.
>
> Nineteen years ago, almost to the day, we lost three astronauts in a
> terrible accident on the ground. But we've never lost an astronaut in
> flight; we've never had a tragedy like this. And perhaps we've forgotten the
> courage it took for the crew of the shuttle. But they, the Challenger Seven,
> were aware of the dangers, overcame them and did their jobs brilliantly. We
> mourn seven heroes: Michael Smith, Dick Scobee, Judith Resnik, Ronald
> McNair, Ellison Onizuka, Gregory Jarvis, and Christa McAuliffe. We mourn
> their loss as a nation together.
>
> [To] the families of the seven: we cannot bear, as you do, the full impact
> of this tragedy. But we feel the loss, and we're thinking about you so very
> much. Your loved ones were daring and brave, and they had that special
> grace, that special spirit that says, "Give me a challenge, and I'll meet it
> with joy." They had a hunger to explore the universe and discover its
> truths. They wished to serve, and they did. They served all of us. We've
> grown used to wonders in this century. It's hard to dazzle us. But for 25
> years the United States space program has been doing just that. We've grown
> used to the idea of space, and perhaps we forget that we've only just begun.
> We're still pioneers. They, the members of the Challenger crew, were
> pioneers.
>
> And I want to say something to the schoolchildren of America who were
> watching the live coverage of the shuttle's takeoff. I know it is hard to
> understand, but sometimes painful things like this happen. It's all part of
> the process of exploration and discovery. It's all part of taking a chance
> and expanding man's horizons. The future doesn't belong to the fainthearted;
> it belongs to the brave. The Challenger crew was pulling us into the future,
> and we'll continue to follow them.
>
> I've always had great faith in and respect for our space program, and what
> happened today does nothing to diminish it. We don't hide our space program.
> We don't keep secrets and cover things up. We do it all up front and in
> public. That's the way freedom is, and we wouldn't change it for a minute.
> We'll continue our quest in space. There will be more shuttle flights and
> more shuttle crews and, yes, more volunteers, more civilians, more teachers
> in space. Nothing ends here; our hopes and our journeys continue. I want to
> add that I wish I could talk to every man and woman who works for NASA or
> who worked on this mission and tell them: "Your dedication and
> professionalism have moved and impressed us for decades. And we know of your
> anguish. We share it."
>
> There's a coincidence today. On this day 390 years ago, the great explorer
> Sir Francis Drake died aboard ship off the coast of Panama. In his lifetime
> the great frontiers were the oceans, and an historian later said, "He lived
> by the sea, died on it, and was buried in it." Well today we can say of the
> Challenger crew: Their dedication was, like Drake's, complete.
>
> The crew of the space shuttle Challenger honored us by the manner in which
> they lived their lives. We will never forget them, nor the last time we saw
> them, this morning, as they prepared for their journey and waved goodbye and
> "slipped the surly bonds of earth" to "touch the face of God."
>
> -- Ronald Wilson Reagan
>
>
--
Prima Lucilla Cornelia Fortunata
__________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] OT: Challenger
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sun, 28 Jan 2001 06:35:56 -0000

Salvete Consul Germanicus:

I remember this vividly...........I was in college. I walked into the
cafeteria, where there was absolutely NO TALKING........if silence could
speak. Before I could question why the absence of the usual hustle and loud
conversation, I saw the large video screen which was the object of
everyones' attention, and I then saw a replay of the shuttle exploding
before my very eyes.

Nothing needed to be said........

To boldly go where no one has gone before.........

Vale,
Pompeia


>From: "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: <novaroma@-------->
>Subject: [novaroma] OT: Challenger
>Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 00:57:28 -0500
>
>Salvete;
>
>What follows is the speech made by Ronald Reagan in regards to the
>Challenger tragedy, which occurred exactly 15 years ago today. It has
>nothing whatsoever to do with ancient Rome or Nova Roma. Delete it if you
>want; read it if you can.
>
>Vale,
>
>Flavius Vedius Germanicus
>
>------
>
>Ladies and gentlemen, I'd planned to speak to you tonight to report on the
>state of the Union, but the events of earlier today have led me to change
>those plans. Today is a day for mourning and remembering. Nancy and I are
>pained to the core by the tragedy of the shuttle Challenger. We know we
>share this pain with all of the people of our country. This is truly a
>national loss.
>
>Nineteen years ago, almost to the day, we lost three astronauts in a
>terrible accident on the ground. But we've never lost an astronaut in
>flight; we've never had a tragedy like this. And perhaps we've forgotten
>the
>courage it took for the crew of the shuttle. But they, the Challenger
>Seven,
>were aware of the dangers, overcame them and did their jobs brilliantly. We
>mourn seven heroes: Michael Smith, Dick Scobee, Judith Resnik, Ronald
>McNair, Ellison Onizuka, Gregory Jarvis, and Christa McAuliffe. We mourn
>their loss as a nation together.
>
>[To] the families of the seven: we cannot bear, as you do, the full impact
>of this tragedy. But we feel the loss, and we're thinking about you so very
>much. Your loved ones were daring and brave, and they had that special
>grace, that special spirit that says, "Give me a challenge, and I'll meet
>it
>with joy." They had a hunger to explore the universe and discover its
>truths. They wished to serve, and they did. They served all of us. We've
>grown used to wonders in this century. It's hard to dazzle us. But for 25
>years the United States space program has been doing just that. We've grown
>used to the idea of space, and perhaps we forget that we've only just
>begun.
>We're still pioneers. They, the members of the Challenger crew, were
>pioneers.
>
>And I want to say something to the schoolchildren of America who were
>watching the live coverage of the shuttle's takeoff. I know it is hard to
>understand, but sometimes painful things like this happen. It's all part of
>the process of exploration and discovery. It's all part of taking a chance
>and expanding man's horizons. The future doesn't belong to the
>fainthearted;
>it belongs to the brave. The Challenger crew was pulling us into the
>future,
>and we'll continue to follow them.
>
>I've always had great faith in and respect for our space program, and what
>happened today does nothing to diminish it. We don't hide our space
>program.
>We don't keep secrets and cover things up. We do it all up front and in
>public. That's the way freedom is, and we wouldn't change it for a minute.
>We'll continue our quest in space. There will be more shuttle flights and
>more shuttle crews and, yes, more volunteers, more civilians, more teachers
>in space. Nothing ends here; our hopes and our journeys continue. I want to
>add that I wish I could talk to every man and woman who works for NASA or
>who worked on this mission and tell them: "Your dedication and
>professionalism have moved and impressed us for decades. And we know of
>your
>anguish. We share it."
>
>There's a coincidence today. On this day 390 years ago, the great explorer
>Sir Francis Drake died aboard ship off the coast of Panama. In his lifetime
>the great frontiers were the oceans, and an historian later said, "He lived
>by the sea, died on it, and was buried in it." Well today we can say of the
>Challenger crew: Their dedication was, like Drake's, complete.
>
>The crew of the space shuttle Challenger honored us by the manner in which
>they lived their lives. We will never forget them, nor the last time we saw
>them, this morning, as they prepared for their journey and waved goodbye
>and
>"slipped the surly bonds of earth" to "touch the face of God."
>
> -- Ronald Wilson Reagan
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] OT: Challenger
From:	djester6@--------
Date:	Sun, 28 Jan 2001 07:46:40 EST

In a message dated 1/28/01 12:00:02 AM Central Standard Time,
germanicus@-------- writes:

<<
The crew of the space shuttle Challenger honored us by the manner in which
they lived their lives. We will never forget them, nor the last time we saw
them, this morning, as they prepared for their journey and waved goodbye and
"slipped the surly bonds of earth" to "touch the face of God." >>

I miss Reagan. Simple as that. I don't know when we'll have that kind of
leadership ever again.

Lugus Brigantius

Subject:	[novaroma] Endorsement of C. Flavius Diocletianus for Propraetor Germaniae
From:	Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
Date:	Sun, 28 Jan 2001 17:31:56 +0100

Senatui PopuloQue novaRomanorum Lucilla Cinna salutem

I come before you, Patres Conscripti, in support of the candidacy of
junior Praetor C. Flavius Diocletianus for Propraetor provinciae Germaniae.

As Legatus provinciae Germaniae C. Flavius Diocletianus has done a great
job, being responsible for the provincial life in Germania. His efforts
in hosting and maintain the website of the provincia Germania as well as
that of the Sodalitas Militarium and his commitment in developing,
maintaining, and promoting the Limes Coopration speak for themselves. As
a member of the provincial mailing list NRGermania I testify his
promoting a vivid provincial life in the provincia Germania.

Apart from that C. Flavius Diocletianus has always proved himself as a
very helpful person, intelligent, friendly, and with a fine sense of humor.

It would be an honor to welcome him as propraetor of the provincia
Germania where I myself live, and to see him continuing the successful
work of outgoing Propraetor provinciae Germaniae M. Marcius Rex whose
resignation I deeply regret.

Bene valete,

Lucilla Cornelia Cinna
Quaestrix secunda
Musaea collegiorum Calliopes et Clius Sodalitatis Musarum
Retaria pro tempore Sodalitatis Egressus
civis NovaRomana


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Governorship of Germania
From:	Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@-------->
Date:	Sun, 28 Jan 2001 17:43:49 +0100

Caius Flavius Diocletianus Quiritibus S.P.D.

My special greetings to Consul Flavius Vedius Germanicus, Propraetrix Livia
Marcia Aurelia and Propraetrix Pompeia Cornelia Strabo.

Of course, honoured Consul, the Governors are appointed by the Senate. I made
my publice announcement to tell the people that I´m available for the position,
not to start an election campaing ;-). Only a little bit public relation work,
since I received some questions from provincial inhabitants regarding the
succession of my friend Marcus Marcius Rex.

I´m honoured and touched about the public support, not only by our Consul, but
also by the Propraetices Livia Cornelia Aurelia and Pompeia Cornelia Strabo.
Thank you all very much! I hope that I really fulfill all the positive
qulities you mentioned, and I´m a little bit ashamed. I only
try to do my work for our Res Publica as good as possible, hoping that my work
improves the growth and the qualities of our roman nation

Again, thank you all for your kind support.

Valete Bene

Caius Flavius Diocletianus




Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:

> Salvete;
>
> Just a reminder concerning procedure; provincial governorships are not
> decided by popular vote, they are assigned by the Senate. While there's
> nothing wrong with garnering popular support when one is under consideration
> for governorship of a provincium, such energies might be better spent
> addressing the Senate.
>
> Having said that, I too believe Caius Flavius Diocletianus will do an
> outstanding job as governor of Germania provincia, and am confident that my
> fellow Senatores will appoint him to the position.
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
> "For Graccus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
> bad one." (Crassus, in the film "Spartacus")
>
> email: germanicus@--------
> AIM: Flavius Vedius
> www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Endorsement of C. Flavius Diocletianus for Propraetor Germaniae
From:	Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@-------->
Date:	Sun, 28 Jan 2001 18:44:31 +0100

Salvete Quirites,

thank you very much, Lucilla Cornelia Cinna, for your kind words of support.
Especially that you mentioned my fine sense of humor... ;-).

Valete
Caius Flavius Diocletianus

Lucilla Cornelia Cinna wrote:

> Senatui PopuloQue novaRomanorum Lucilla Cinna salutem
>
> I come before you, Patres Conscripti, in support of the candidacy of
> junior Praetor C. Flavius Diocletianus for Propraetor provinciae Germaniae.
>
> As Legatus provinciae Germaniae C. Flavius Diocletianus has done a great
> job, being responsible for the provincial life in Germania. His efforts
> in hosting and maintain the website of the provincia Germania as well as
> that of the Sodalitas Militarium and his commitment in developing,
> maintaining, and promoting the Limes Coopration speak for themselves. As
> a member of the provincial mailing list NRGermania I testify his
> promoting a vivid provincial life in the provincia Germania.
>
> Apart from that C. Flavius Diocletianus has always proved himself as a
> very helpful person, intelligent, friendly, and with a fine sense of humor.
>
> It would be an honor to welcome him as propraetor of the provincia
> Germania where I myself live, and to see him continuing the successful
> work of outgoing Propraetor provinciae Germaniae M. Marcius Rex whose
> resignation I deeply regret.
>
> Bene valete,
>
> Lucilla Cornelia Cinna
> Quaestrix secunda
> Musaea collegiorum Calliopes et Clius Sodalitatis Musarum
> Retaria pro tempore Sodalitatis Egressus
> civis NovaRomana
>
> _________________________________________________________
>
> Do You Yahoo!?
>
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] OT: Challenger
From:	Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@-------->
Date:	Sun, 28 Jan 2001 18:56:36 +0100

Salvete, Consul et alii

we all should have time to read this speech, and we all should have the time to
remember the horrible accident of the Challenger. Of course, that has nothing
to do with Rome, but we should always remember such tragedies.

Thank you, Consul for reminding us.

Valete
Caius Flavius Diocletianus


Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:

> Salvete;
>
> What follows is the speech made by Ronald Reagan in regards to the
> Challenger tragedy, which occurred exactly 15 years ago today. It has
> nothing whatsoever to do with ancient Rome or Nova Roma. Delete it if you
> want; read it if you can.
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus
>
> ------
>
> Ladies and gentlemen, I'd planned to speak to you tonight to report on the
> state of the Union, but the events of earlier today have led me to change
> those plans. Today is a day for mourning and remembering. Nancy and I are
> pained to the core by the tragedy of the shuttle Challenger. We know we
> share this pain with all of the people of our country. This is truly a
> national loss.
>
> Nineteen years ago, almost to the day, we lost three astronauts in a
> terrible accident on the ground. But we've never lost an astronaut in
> flight; we've never had a tragedy like this. And perhaps we've forgotten the
> courage it took for the crew of the shuttle. But they, the Challenger Seven,
> were aware of the dangers, overcame them and did their jobs brilliantly. We
> mourn seven heroes: Michael Smith, Dick Scobee, Judith Resnik, Ronald
> McNair, Ellison Onizuka, Gregory Jarvis, and Christa McAuliffe. We mourn
> their loss as a nation together.
>
> [To] the families of the seven: we cannot bear, as you do, the full impact
> of this tragedy. But we feel the loss, and we're thinking about you so very
> much. Your loved ones were daring and brave, and they had that special
> grace, that special spirit that says, "Give me a challenge, and I'll meet it
> with joy." They had a hunger to explore the universe and discover its
> truths. They wished to serve, and they did. They served all of us. We've
> grown used to wonders in this century. It's hard to dazzle us. But for 25
> years the United States space program has been doing just that. We've grown
> used to the idea of space, and perhaps we forget that we've only just begun.
> We're still pioneers. They, the members of the Challenger crew, were
> pioneers.
>
> And I want to say something to the schoolchildren of America who were
> watching the live coverage of the shuttle's takeoff. I know it is hard to
> understand, but sometimes painful things like this happen. It's all part of
> the process of exploration and discovery. It's all part of taking a chance
> and expanding man's horizons. The future doesn't belong to the fainthearted;
> it belongs to the brave. The Challenger crew was pulling us into the future,
> and we'll continue to follow them.
>
> I've always had great faith in and respect for our space program, and what
> happened today does nothing to diminish it. We don't hide our space program.
> We don't keep secrets and cover things up. We do it all up front and in
> public. That's the way freedom is, and we wouldn't change it for a minute.
> We'll continue our quest in space. There will be more shuttle flights and
> more shuttle crews and, yes, more volunteers, more civilians, more teachers
> in space. Nothing ends here; our hopes and our journeys continue. I want to
> add that I wish I could talk to every man and woman who works for NASA or
> who worked on this mission and tell them: "Your dedication and
> professionalism have moved and impressed us for decades. And we know of your
> anguish. We share it."
>
> There's a coincidence today. On this day 390 years ago, the great explorer
> Sir Francis Drake died aboard ship off the coast of Panama. In his lifetime
> the great frontiers were the oceans, and an historian later said, "He lived
> by the sea, died on it, and was buried in it." Well today we can say of the
> Challenger crew: Their dedication was, like Drake's, complete.
>
> The crew of the space shuttle Challenger honored us by the manner in which
> they lived their lives. We will never forget them, nor the last time we saw
> them, this morning, as they prepared for their journey and waved goodbye and
> "slipped the surly bonds of earth" to "touch the face of God."
>
> -- Ronald Wilson Reagan
>

Subject:	[novaroma] Petronius on Rhetoric
From:	"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@-------->
Date:	Sun, 28 Jan 2001 22:36:00 -0000

Salvete Quirites

The other day, I was talking with a friend or two outside the Pomerium about various ways in which we fall short of old Rome, and the usual quid facere topics that naturally ensue from such trains of thought. The "Satyricon" (attributed to C. Petronius Arbiter) cropped up...

Most people probably know Petronius Arbiter from that famous dictum of his about corporate reorganisation, which decorates a million office and factory walls (and which some petty tyrants have ordered to be taken down, which has got to prove something). He was a close friend of Nero's, and was given his cognomen by the emperor in a sort of semi-official appointment: Arbiter Elegantiae, or Arbiter of Elegance. Though Iuppiter alone knows what Nero knew about good taste. In the end Petronius managed to upset his fat friend terminally (a rather common distinction in those days), and my guess is that his undoing was because Tigellinus told Nero that Caius Petronius was simply encouraging Nero to ever greater expositions of appalling tackiness just so he and his clever friends could wet their subligacula (linen or cotton underpants, tho' Cato's were probably woollen) laughing at Nero behind his back and wondering what new heights of kitsch they could inspire him to next. This kind of maiestas is unforgiveable, of course. Even more unforgiveable than, erm... maiestas.

Petronius (so Tacitus says, in his Annales, xvi. 18-19) chose to commit suicide by opening his veins in a bath at home. But he threw a party at the same time, and regaled his guests with salacious and embarassing anecdotes of Nero's private life (having his veins tied up from time to time to slow things down until he ran out of material). Well, if you only die once...

Petronius was without doubt a bitch. No doubt he would not be welcome here in our New Rome, which is modelled on another Rome than the one he knew, but even so, I found a resonance or two in this passage on public speaking, with which what's left of the Petronii Arbitri Satyricon begins...

(adapted from the J P Sullivan translation, Penguin Classics):

"Our teachers of rhetoric are surely just as obsessed when they shout: 'I got these wounds fighting for your freedom! This eye I lost for you. Give me your hand, and lead me to my children. I'm hamstrung, my legs cannot support me.' We could even put up with this crap if it was a sure way to becoming eloquent ourselves. But the only result of these pompous subjects, and empty thundering of platitudes, is that when public speakers first enter public life, they think they've landed on another planet. I'm sure the reason such young idiots are produced in our schools is because they have no contact with anything from ordinary life... every word, every gesture, is just so much nonsense.

"People raised on this kind of stuff have as much chance of learning sense as scullions have of smelling clean... young men were not tied down to rhetorical exercises when Sophocles or Euripedes developed the proper language for them. Academic pedants hadn't curdled their brains when Pindar and the nine lyric poets moved on from the Homeric style. And apart from the poets I can cite, I certainly can't see Plato or Demosthenes going in for that sort of training... it isn't so long since that long-winded spouting of yours travelled from Asia to Athens and its stinking poisonous breath infected every youthful ambition. Once the rules are gone, eloquence loses vigour and voice... not even poetry has shown a spark of life...

(pace Venator!)

"'What's the answer? It's the parents you should blame. They won't allow their children to be controlled properly... If only parents wouldn't rush them through their studies! Then... young men would wait and listen before they tried themselves, and they would realize that an adolescent taste is totally worthless. Then the noble art of oratory would have its true weight and dignity. Boys today are frivolous in school; young men are objects of ridicule in public life;

(pace Draco!)

"and the greatest shame of all is that even when they grow old, they refuse to give up the mistakes they learned earlier..."

"...Under smiling battlements of Martial Athens,
In Lacedaemonian colony,
Even by the Sirens' home,
It's no matter;
Verse for your early education,
Deep joyful draughts from Homeric springs
Then, be filled with the Socratic circle,
Ride with reins loose,
Swing the great sword of Demosthenes.
Now our Roman squadrons sweep about you like a flood,
Roman voices mixed with Greek music,
Changing their savour.
Then leave the Forum behind,
And let your reading advance
Until Fortuna's power
Makes itself heard in histories:
...War's epic sounds should feast your ears,
Shudder at the mighty orotundities
Of Cicero, who never lost a cause...
Only then, pour out your heart."

There. I'll go along with that. Humanitas isn't something you automatically have by being born human. Romanitas is not something earned merely by having an address in Rome. Auctoritas
isn't a purple stripe on your toga or a pair of cherry-red boots, nor is it counted in lictors... it is about learning to be Roman, by immersion. We should be ashamed of our ignorance, which makes us ridiculous in the eyes of of our spiritual ancestors; we should be as excited and as avid to learn as the Europeans of the last Classical Renaissance, when Cardinal Bessarion's library was rescued from the Turks and brought safely to Italy.

We need to learn as we participate in the political life of our new Rome. And we need to do that here.

Bene disceamus

N. Moravius Vado.






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