Subject:	RE: [novaroma] RE: Language
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:35:43 -0500

Salve,
>> Actually, I don't think Formosanus is the only person who has raised
on the
list queries about this policy. >>

I was not clear on what I meant by "one person" having an issue with
English. My apologies. What I intended to get across is that, to date,
only one member has had problems being able/willing to post here in English.
I intended to emphasize that the "problem" of accommodating those who cannot
communicate in English has not presented itself as a major one, thus far
only affecting one person. I did not intend to state that Formosanus alone
had an opinion on the issue. Again, my apologies for not being more clear
on that.

Vale,

Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonem




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] Comitia Populi Vote Result Delayed
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 1 Feb 2001 20:50:45 -0500

Salvete;

I have been informed by the Rogatores that the result of the vote in the
Comitia Populi will be delayed slightly due to a technical difficulty.
Results will be posted as soon as they are available.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

"For Graccus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
bad one." (Crassus, in the film "Spartacus")

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Album Civium Issue
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Fri, 02 Feb 2001 01:51:17 -0000

Salvete Pater et Quiribus Novae Romae:

How unfortunate that we do not have a duplicate system of data storage; the
effort is, at first thought a pain, but it is circumstances such as these
which render it a rather useful precaution.

I know hardcopy can be expensive, but atleast it is there and cannot be
"deleted" or victim to a "crash". Even a means of electronic duplication
would be better than just having one record.

I don't envy you Censors right now, that is for sure.

Valete,
Pompeia Cornelia


>From: "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: <novaroma@-------->
>Subject: [novaroma] Album Civium Issue
>Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 16:59:18 -0800
>
>Ave Citizens of Nova Roma
>
>I have just been informed that there was a slight issue with the Album
>Civium. With the result of some loss of data. Senator M. Octavius has
>restored the database from December 26, 2000. So, if you were granted
>citizenship after December 26, please contact me privately so I can hasten
>this correction process.
>
>We do have all of the records from citizens who have applied, that
>information was not lost.
>
>We will be working as quickly as possible to correct this issue. Your
>patience and assistance will be greatly appreciated.
>
>Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>Censor of Nova Roma
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Comitia Populi Vote Result Delayed
From:	Piparskegg UllRsson <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Thu, 01 Feb 2001 19:01:42 -0600

Ave!

Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:
>
> Salvete;
>
> I have been informed by the Rogatores that the result of the vote in the
> Comitia Populi will be delayed slightly due to a technical difficulty.
> Results will be posted as soon as they are available.
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>

Thou tease ;-0

--
===========================================
In Amicus et Felicitas, Benedicte Omnes!
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Best Gladius Iberius Model available? Supplier?
From:	"Quintus Augustus" <quintus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 01 Feb 2001 21:30:14 -0500

Germanicus~


I too am searching for quality arms and armor. I picked up a mainz gladius,
from India, and i wasn't all too pleased. I am in process of making a
bone hand grip as well as replacing the guard and pommel with hardwood.
I do like the weight for excersize and practice.


Keep your eye on ebay - some interesting bits can surface.....


Q. AVG.




--
Quintus Augustus
Citizen of Nova Roma
quintus@-------- - email
(212) 894-3746 x9127 - voicemail/fax
"....semper ubi sub ubi......"


__________________________________________________
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Sign Up Now! http://www.onebox.com

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] RE: Language
From:	gmvick32@--------
Date:	Thu, 01 Feb 2001 22:54:47 -0700

I think the crux of the matter, again, is frequency. I
don't think we see a high frequency of non-English posts to
this list, so this seems like a non-essential rule to
mandate that ALL non-English posts must be accompanied by a
translation or the sender is in violation. But that's not
the real issue that's striking me. The issue, again, is
what are we trying to be? As a reconstruction of Roma,
well......it seems to me we would be more prudent to fall on
the side of being tolerant of other languages. Rome took
many non-Latin speaking cultures into its bosom.....and I
recall that they were generally allowed to retain their own
languages. I dare say if two Gauls were walking across the
Forum and talking, they could have done so in their own
Lingua Franca just as well as in Latin.

I could see an argument made that affairs of state would be
conducted in Latin, but we aren't talking about the Senate
list here, and we aren't talking about the magistrates
posting in other languages here. We're talking about a
posting from a citizen or potential citizen.....maybe
looking for information on Nova Roma, or maybe simply
expressing a sentiment of the moment in its original -- but
in any case communicating in one of the many languages
encompassing our res publica. I ask that we relax any rules
around this and allow the occasional post in non-English.
Certainly the Curator Sermonem would want to determine if
that person needed translation help. But this is a place
for us to meet, commingle, and perhaps find a niche inside
our diverse groups. We would be seen as much more friendly
to a truly international Nova Roma if we were not
restrictive to non-English posts.

And for the content English speakers out there....I
challenge you to express yourselves in a second language you
might have to a list of native speakers. It's difficult to
put yourself out there like that. I've been working up my
courage to do just that on nrgermania. It's an experience
worth having, if only to empathize with those who have to do
it routinely to speak here.

Livia Marcia Aurelia



> Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:
> >
> > However, the vast majority of Citizens have at least a
> passable
> > understanding of English, and for purely practical
> reasons, English is our
> > Lingua Franca, like it or not. (And yes, the irony of
> that last bit didn't
> > escape me *grin*) Until such time as technology gives us
> truly reliable
> > electronic translation services, I'm afraid that we're
> stuck with serving
> > the interests of the vast majority.
> >
> > It's just practical.
> >
> Manius Villius Limitanus wrote:
> I can t agree. It is practical for you, not for us. Most
> of us don t
> mind to
> write in english, translating from our own languages, but
> it still
> hampers in expressing exactly our thoughts. What is the
> proportion of
> active listers on citizen for native english speakers ?
> And for
> non-native english speakers ? I have the feeling there is
> some
> difference.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Century Points
From:	gmvick32@--------
Date:	Thu, 01 Feb 2001 23:07:46 -0700

I discourage the allotment of century points for tasks. If
you want to expand the century points for assuming and
holding a minor office such as a provincial legate or
scribe, where I currently don't think we do it, that's
fine. However, you're opening yourself up to an
organizational and political nightmare if you start dishing
out century points for helping with a feast, or putting
together an issue of a newsletter (do I get more points for
churning out 12 one pagers with no substance, or 1 12 pager
with great content? how do I resolve contestations of
effort ..."oh, his name is on that, but I did all the work,
I deserve points too....." "oh, I did the dishes at that
feast, where are my points?"....) and on it goes.....hope
the poor schmucks stuck with tracking this get 100 century
points.

Think of this. Century points are like currency. The more
money you have in circulation, the less value a coin has.
That's why mints don't just spew out money at will, they
have to release it in a delicate balance with that which
already in circulation. If they release too much money into
the economy in relationship to demand, the money loses its
purchasing power.

Don't devalue a century point by releasing too many of
them. I really don't think a handful of century points is
inducement to work a feast, nor should we want it to be.

Livia Marcia Aurelia



Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:

> Fl Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.,
>
> A thought occurred to me the other day when considering
> the question of
> Century Points.
>
> As it stands now, the Lex Vedia Centuriata (and the
> various leges that have
> since amended it) sets awards for civic participation,
> upon which standing
> in the Centuries is based. The more a cive participates,
> the more of a minor
> edge they get in the voting centuries. All well and good.
>
> However, the points awarded are scaled towards
> participation in the central
> government. Aside from the governors of provinces, no
> allowance is made for
> participation within provincial government, or on a local
> scale. One could
> undertake yeoman's work in putting together a local
> chapter or serve as
> provincial legatus for 20 years, with no recognition via
> the Century point
> system. Such was not the intent of the system when it was
> developed.
>
> However, there is no real "place" for such provincial and
> local awards.
> Would serving in a local Municipium's Senate fit into the
> scale of awards
> for service in the national government? What about putting
> together a local
> Civium's newsletter? What reward for organizing a single
> event?
>
> I think we need to make room for more "minor"
> contributions to Nova Roma's
> growth. This is not to say that they are unimportant;
> quite the contrary,
> they will I am certain prove to be vital to our continued
> organic bottom-up
> growth. However, we need to allow for minor rewards for
> minor services.
>
> I would suggest that all Century point awards currently on
> the books be
> multiplied by ten. Similarly, all current Century point
> totals held by
> citizens would also be so multiplied. No one would change
> one iota in their
> relative standing, and new Citizens would be in
> _precisely_ the same
> position when it came to earning new points. Since the
> whole system is
> multiplied by ten, all of the relationships remain exactly
> the same. It
> would be exactly the same as if we allowed for fractional
> century points
> (but without the psychological stigma; 'Three-tenths of a
> century point.
> Wow.')
>
> What this idea would do, however, is allow us a whole
> range of minor awards.
> Now, 5 century points is the equivalent of serving in a
> minor magistracy in
> the central government. Afterwards, 5 century points could
> be a suitable
> reward for putting together a local convivium (feast).
>
> I'm not saying that we need to expressly lay out what all
> those minor
> rewards should be, or who should administer them at this
> time. It's clearly
> too early to know exactly what will and won't be needed,
> or appropriate.
> However, I think we can foresee that the need for such
> will be there, and I
> see no reason not to make provision for it at this time.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
> "For Gracchus, hatred of the Patrician class is a
> profession, and not such a
> bad one." (Crassus in the film "Spartacus")
>
> email: germanicus@--------
> AIM: Flavius Vedius
> www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor


www.


>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Century Points
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:12:59 -0800

Ave

My comments below:


----- Original Message -----
From: <gmvick32@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Century Points


> I discourage the allotment of century points for tasks. If
> you want to expand the century points for assuming and
> holding a minor office such as a provincial legate or
> scribe, where I currently don't think we do it, that's
> fine. However, you're opening yourself up to an
> organizational and political nightmare if you start dishing
> out century points for helping with a feast, or putting
> together an issue of a newsletter (do I get more points for
> churning out 12 one pagers with no substance, or 1 12 pager
> with great content? how do I resolve contestations of
> effort ..."oh, his name is on that, but I did all the work,
> I deserve points too....." "oh, I did the dishes at that
> feast, where are my points?"....) and on it goes.....hope
> the poor schmucks stuck with tracking this get 100 century
> points.

Well Livia, you were appointed by the Senate of Nova Roma. So, you were
therefore invested with certain powers and responsiblities. So, with that
in mind you would hopefully use your best judgement. Not every decision
will be 100% correct but it would be as correct as you would see it.
Therefore you are making a judgement.

> Think of this. Century points are like currency. The more
> money you have in circulation, the less value a coin has.
> That's why mints don't just spew out money at will, they
> have to release it in a delicate balance with that which
> already in circulation. If they release too much money into
> the economy in relationship to demand, the money loses its
> purchasing power.

I disagree. Very soon, I will be posting on the NR list a plan that C.
Marius Merullus and I completed that will expand the century point system
that was orignally drafted by our Noble Consul Flavius Vedius Germancius.
It will take into consideration such participation as members and creators
of Sodalitas, Lictors, Scribes, Assensus, Legates, etc etc. I think that by
providing some century points to various modes of particiaption it might
create more participation overall.

<Snip>

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma

> Livia Marcia Aurelia
>
>
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:
>
> > Fl Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.,
> >
> > A thought occurred to me the other day when considering
> > the question of
> > Century Points.
> >
> > As it stands now, the Lex Vedia Centuriata (and the
> > various leges that have
> > since amended it) sets awards for civic participation,
> > upon which standing
> > in the Centuries is based. The more a cive participates,
> > the more of a minor
> > edge they get in the voting centuries. All well and good.
> >
> > However, the points awarded are scaled towards
> > participation in the central
> > government. Aside from the governors of provinces, no
> > allowance is made for
> > participation within provincial government, or on a local
> > scale. One could
> > undertake yeoman's work in putting together a local
> > chapter or serve as
> > provincial legatus for 20 years, with no recognition via
> > the Century point
> > system. Such was not the intent of the system when it was
> > developed.
> >
> > However, there is no real "place" for such provincial and
> > local awards.
> > Would serving in a local Municipium's Senate fit into the
> > scale of awards
> > for service in the national government? What about putting
> > together a local
> > Civium's newsletter? What reward for organizing a single
> > event?
> >
> > I think we need to make room for more "minor"
> > contributions to Nova Roma's
> > growth. This is not to say that they are unimportant;
> > quite the contrary,
> > they will I am certain prove to be vital to our continued
> > organic bottom-up
> > growth. However, we need to allow for minor rewards for
> > minor services.
> >
> > I would suggest that all Century point awards currently on
> > the books be
> > multiplied by ten. Similarly, all current Century point
> > totals held by
> > citizens would also be so multiplied. No one would change
> > one iota in their
> > relative standing, and new Citizens would be in
> > _precisely_ the same
> > position when it came to earning new points. Since the
> > whole system is
> > multiplied by ten, all of the relationships remain exactly
> > the same. It
> > would be exactly the same as if we allowed for fractional
> > century points
> > (but without the psychological stigma; 'Three-tenths of a
> > century point.
> > Wow.')
> >
> > What this idea would do, however, is allow us a whole
> > range of minor awards.
> > Now, 5 century points is the equivalent of serving in a
> > minor magistracy in
> > the central government. Afterwards, 5 century points could
> > be a suitable
> > reward for putting together a local convivium (feast).
> >
> > I'm not saying that we need to expressly lay out what all
> > those minor
> > rewards should be, or who should administer them at this
> > time. It's clearly
> > too early to know exactly what will and won't be needed,
> > or appropriate.
> > However, I think we can foresee that the need for such
> > will be there, and I
> > see no reason not to make provision for it at this time.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> > Consul
> >
> > "For Gracchus, hatred of the Patrician class is a
> > profession, and not such a
> > bad one." (Crassus in the film "Spartacus")
> >
> > email: germanicus@--------
> > AIM: Flavius Vedius
> > www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
> www.
>
>
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Century Points
From:	gmvick32@--------
Date:	Fri, 02 Feb 2001 00:05:34 -0700

Sulla:


> > I discourage the allotment of century points for tasks.
> If
> > you want to expand the century points for assuming and
> > holding a minor office such as a provincial legate or
> > scribe, where I currently don't think we do it, that's
> > fine. However, you're opening yourself up to an
> > organizational and political nightmare if you start
> dishing
> > out century points for helping with a feast, or putting
> > together an issue of a newsletter (do I get more points
> for
> > churning out 12 one pagers with no substance, or 1 12
> pager
> > with great content? how do I resolve contestations of
> > effort ..."oh, his name is on that, but I did all the
> work,
> > I deserve points too....." "oh, I did the dishes at
> that
> > feast, where are my points?"....) and on it
> goes.....hope
> > the poor schmucks stuck with tracking this get 100
> century
> > points.
>
> Well Livia, you were appointed by the Senate of Nova
> Roma. So, you were
> therefore invested with certain powers and
> responsiblities. So, with that
> in mind you would hopefully use your best judgement. Not
> every decision
> will be 100% correct but it would be as correct as you
> would see it.
> Therefore you are making a judgement.

Right....a person is making a JUDGEMENT on an individual
basis to award century points for participation -- century
points being that mechanism by which placement in the
centuries and weight of vote is allocated. So rather than
setting up an impartial formula for awarding century points,
you're enabling clientship.

> > Think of this. Century points are like currency. The
> more
> > money you have in circulation, the less value a coin
> has.
> > That's why mints don't just spew out money at will, they
>
> > have to release it in a delicate balance with that which
>
> > already in circulation. If they release too much money
> into
> > the economy in relationship to demand, the money loses
> its
> > purchasing power.
>
> I disagree.

You show no sign of understanding the point. Think back.
In your MBA you must have covered the rudiments of
economics.


> Very soon, I will be posting on the NR list a plan that
> C.
> Marius Merullus and I completed that will expand the
> century point system
> that was orignally drafted by our Noble Consul Flavius
> Vedius Germancius.
> It will take into consideration such participation as
> members and creators
> of Sodalitas, Lictors, Scribes, Assensus, Legates, etc
> etc. I think that by
> providing some century points to various modes of
> particiaption it might
> create more participation overall.

I said in my original post that if you wanted to extend
century points to cover elected and appointed officials,
that was fine. That's a different proposal from dishing out
century points because somebody produced something.


Livia Marcia Aurelia


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Century Points
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 1 Feb 2001 23:05:14 -0800

> >
> > Well Livia, you were appointed by the Senate of Nova
> > Roma. So, you were
> > therefore invested with certain powers and
> > responsiblities. So, with that
> > in mind you would hopefully use your best judgement. Not
> > every decision
> > will be 100% correct but it would be as correct as you
> > would see it.
> > Therefore you are making a judgement.
>
> Right....a person is making a JUDGEMENT on an individual
> basis to award century points for participation -- century
> points being that mechanism by which placement in the
> centuries and weight of vote is allocated. So rather than
> setting up an impartial formula for awarding century points,
> you're enabling clientship.

I disagree. It isnt enabling clientship (though I am in favor of
clientship). Are you selling your decision to the person who is bribing you
to delcare them the winner in the judgement or are you basing a decision on
the facts as they are represented to you? By awarding century points for
good works I think is a good way of promoting thanks, just like when Consul
Audens tired to promulgate a vote of thanks for Senator Vado. Are you
saying that Proconsul Audens was trying to get Senator Vado into his fold as
a client?

> > > Think of this. Century points are like currency. The
> > more
> > > money you have in circulation, the less value a coin
> > has.
> > > That's why mints don't just spew out money at will, they
> >
> > > have to release it in a delicate balance with that which
> >
> > > already in circulation. If they release too much money
> > into
> > > the economy in relationship to demand, the money loses
> > its
> > > purchasing power.
> >
> > I disagree.
>
> You show no sign of understanding the point. Think back.
> In your MBA you must have covered the rudiments of
> economics.

I have but what you dont realize is there are ways to grant additional
century points without "devaluing" (a word you would use) the century point
system.

> > Very soon, I will be posting on the NR list a plan that
> > C.
> > Marius Merullus and I completed that will expand the
> > century point system
> > that was orignally drafted by our Noble Consul Flavius
> > Vedius Germancius.
> > It will take into consideration such participation as
> > members and creators
> > of Sodalitas, Lictors, Scribes, Assensus, Legates, etc
> > etc. I think that by
> > providing some century points to various modes of
> > particiaption it might
> > create more participation overall.
>
> I said in my original post that if you wanted to extend
> century points to cover elected and appointed officials,
> that was fine. That's a different proposal from dishing out
> century points because somebody produced something.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

Subject:	[novaroma] SODALITAS MILITARIVM NEWSLETTER
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Wed, 31 Jan 2001 21:24:48 -0000

Salvete Omnes:

Don't forget to have a look at the premiere edition of the Sodalitas
Militarium Newsletter.

Simply go to the Militarium Website www.diocletian.de/sodmil/

...click on the Sodalitas Militarium standard, then select Newsletter.

My compliments to Editors et Retariae Livia Marcia Aurelia and Caius Flavius
Diocletianus for their excellent work in producing the website and in their
publishing of the newsletter.

Happy reading!

Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
Legata Navalis et Scriptrix
Sodalitas Militarium
Nova Roma


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Subject:	[novaroma] EDICT: APPOINTMENT OF LEGATE TO AMERICA AUSTROCCIDENTALIS
From:	gmvick32@--------
Date:	Fri, 02 Feb 2001 02:54:10 -0700

Salvete, Quirites:

At the pleasure of the quirities of America
Austroccidentalis, I, Livia Marcia Aurelia, do issue this
the fifth edictum of my tenure as Propraetrix of America
Austroccidentalis.

The purpose of this edictum is to appoint a Legate for the
administration of the territory Austroccidentalis Mons
Petrosus (regios of Colorado and New Mexico).

Done this 2nd day of February, 2001, in the consulship of
Flavius Vedius Germanicus and Marcus Cassius Julianus.

In service,
Livia Marcia Aurelia, Propraetrix

EX DOMO PROPRAETORIS AMERICA AUSTROCCIDENTALIS

Propraetorial Edict Appointing a Legate to the Territory
Mons Petrosus, America Austroccidentalis

GIVEN: That territories inside America Austroccidentalis
have been established to foster local Nova Roma presence and
identity on a territory-by-territory basis and for ease of
administrative oversight of the provincia; and

GIVEN: The publication of Propraetorial Edicta establishing
territories and providing for the administration of
territories issues November 29, 2000; and

GIVEN: That a qualified candidate has presented for the
Legateship, based on record of current service to Nova Roma
and desire to serve Nova Roma in the future:

It is the stated intention of the Propraetrix to provide a
positive opportunity for the Legate to serve Nova Roma with
this appointment and to grow as a citizen through the chance
to perform good works visible to the Senate and People of
Nova Roma.

I. Iulia Cornelia Gaia is hereby appointed as Legata,
territory of Austroccidentalis Mons Petrosus, until such
time as it is no longer the pleasure of the Propraetrix to
retain the services of Cornelia for whatever reason.

II. The duties of Cornelia as Legata will primarily be the
establishment of events local to the regio of Colorado and
the recruitment of new cives to Nova Roma, and secondly
administrative responsibilities both for the territory of
appointment and the provincia as assigned by the
Propraetrix.

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] RE: Language
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:09:06 -0500

Salve,

>>I think the crux of the matter, again, is frequency.>>

We agree that frequency is a key issue, we are just looking at it from
different angels.

>>I don't think we see a high frequency of non-English posts to this list,
so this seems like a non-essential rule to mandate that ALL non-English
posts must be accompanied by a
translation or the sender is in violation.>>

I would start by asking you what *violation* you feel the sender would be
condemned of? :) At this stage, on the rare occasion this has even come
up, the sender has been contacted off-list with an explanation and offer of
assistance. Feedback from said senders has been very good. Only in the
instance where a list member (incidentally, this applies to any member)
refuses to abide by list policy despite being asked to do so and offered
help in doing so, would any form of *violation* be issued.

>>But that's not the real issue that's striking me. The issue, again, is
what are we trying to be? As a reconstruction of Roma, well......it seems
to me we would be more prudent to fall on the side of being tolerant of
other languages.>>

There's that buzzword "tolerant" again. Please explain to me how allowing
posts in MORE than one language is intolerant. If members were being told
not to post anything at all in their own language, you might have a point.
Simply requiring that posts be understood by the vast majority o our list
hardly qualifies as *intolerant*.

>>Rome took many non-Latin speaking cultures into its bosom.....and I recall
that they were generally allowed to retain their own languages.>>

As do we here in Nova Roma. I don't know how to be any more clear:
languages other than English are more than welcome here as long as a
translation into English is provided so that list members may understand the
post. That hardly amount to stripping individuals of their native
languages. This is simply a matter of realistic communication and
maintenance of list traffic.

>>I dare say if two Gauls were walking across the Forum and talking, they
could have done so in their own Lingua Franca just as well as in Latin.>>

If two individuals are having a private conversation, I agree. If, on the
other hand, those same two rose to speak in the Forum, their words would
best serve them as being understood by all listeners. Whether that took
place via their own choice to speak Latin (as in your example), or through
the assistance of a translator, the result would be the same:
comprehension on the part of the listeners. That is all we are looking for
here as well.

Vale,

Priscilla Vedia Serena




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] RE: Language
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:33:11 -0200 (BRST)

On Fri, 2 Feb 2001, JusticeCMO wrote:

> Salve,
>
> >>I think the crux of the matter, again, is frequency.>>
>
> We agree that frequency is a key issue, we are just looking at it from
> different angels.
>
> >>I don't think we see a high frequency of non-English posts to this list,
> so this seems like a non-essential rule to mandate that ALL non-English
> posts must be accompanied by a
> translation or the sender is in violation.>>
>
> I would start by asking you what *violation* you feel the sender would be
> condemned of? :) At this stage, on the rare occasion this has even come
> up, the sender has been contacted off-list with an explanation and offer of
> assistance. Feedback from said senders has been very good. Only in the
> instance where a list member (incidentally, this applies to any member)
> refuses to abide by list policy despite being asked to do so and offered
> help in doing so, would any form of *violation* be issued.
>
> >>But that's not the real issue that's striking me. The issue, again, is
> what are we trying to be? As a reconstruction of Roma, well......it seems
> to me we would be more prudent to fall on the side of being tolerant of
> other languages.>>
>
> There's that buzzword "tolerant" again. Please explain to me how allowing
> posts in MORE than one language is intolerant. If members were being told
> not to post anything at all in their own language, you might have a point.
> Simply requiring that posts be understood by the vast majority o our list
> hardly qualifies as *intolerant*.

It is intolerant. The guys which have a problem with expressing themselves
in english, while they are able to understand english will be/are shut
out. The extra-delay needed for finding a translator will discourage them
from posting in a hot debate. While posting in their own language, which
probably will be traduced by some other lister which understands their
language and is able to WRITE in english allows them to actively
participate.

You are addressing only the problem of people which are able to write
english but don t want to and the problem of people which don t write
english and have a single statement to do, not the debates.


>
> >>Rome took many non-Latin speaking cultures into its bosom.....and I recall
> that they were generally allowed to retain their own languages.>>
>
> As do we here in Nova Roma. I don't know how to be any more clear:
> languages other than English are more than welcome here as long as a
> translation into English is provided so that list members may understand the
> post.

That is exactly the problem : the instantaneous translation to english
while in the middle of a debate. It is unnecessary.
An example of this: Their is an annual? congress of latin (neo-latin?)
linguage speaking theoretical chemists, where everyone speaks his own
language (italian, french, romenian, portugues etc.), it happens often
that for the questions the speaker don t understand the language of the
asker? but there will always be in the assistance somebody able to traduce
it to the speakers language (or to english in fact). Most of us speak
several languages often but not always including english. It is no extra
burden, and it is much faster and effective to traduce afterwards then to
traduce before.

> That hardly amount to stripping individuals of their native
> languages. This is simply a matter of realistic communication and
> maintenance of list traffic.
>

No it is not. Another example would be the supremacy of free software
which is much more effective then proprietary software just because
revisions are faster when the product is already made public.

> >>I dare say if two Gauls were walking across the Forum and talking, they
> could have done so in their own Lingua Franca just as well as in Latin.>>
>
> If two individuals are having a private conversation, I agree. If, on the
> other hand, those same two rose to speak in the Forum, their words would
> best serve them as being understood by all listeners. Whether that took
> place via their own choice to speak Latin (as in your example), or through
> the assistance of a translator, the result would be the same:
> comprehension on the part of the listeners. That is all we are looking for
> here as well.
>

This comprehension can be reached more effectively by a post speak multi
handed translation, then with a pre-speak one handed translation.

Manius Villius Limitanus

> Vale,
>
> Priscilla Vedia Serena
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>

Pr. Michel Loos | Phone: 55 11 818 3810 p. 216
Inst. de Quimica USP | Fax: 55 11 815 5579
PO Box 26077 05599-970 São Paulo, S SP
Brazil

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Language
From:	"Kanat Elibol" <kelibol@-------->
Date:	Fri, 02 Feb 2001 12:47:29 -0000

>


Avete to all...

I have a few things to say here as a person who is
trying to improve his Latin hopelessly..(and I used to think
that Italian was hard!)..
I have no objection to the posts or Forum conversations
in other languages than English...When I see them I simply
disregard them..
But about the Latin posts written by the cives with some
Latin background..Please do write an English translation
somewhere so that I can make out some meaning.That would be
really helpful..
Show some mercy for the souls like me who are trying to
find his/her way in the Labriynth of Latin..

Valete bene..

Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] EDICT: APPOINTMENT OF LEGATE TO AMERICA AUSTROCCIDENTALIS
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 02 Feb 2001 03:08:06 -0800

Congrats Iulia Cornelia Gaia!!! I know all the time and effort you have
spent promoting NR. This is truly wonderful news! :)

Lucius Conrelius Sulla Felix
Pater

gmvick32@-------- wrote:

> Salvete, Quirites:
>
> At the pleasure of the quirities of America
> Austroccidentalis, I, Livia Marcia Aurelia, do issue this
> the fifth edictum of my tenure as Propraetrix of America
> Austroccidentalis.
>
> The purpose of this edictum is to appoint a Legate for the
> administration of the territory Austroccidentalis Mons
> Petrosus (regios of Colorado and New Mexico).
>
> Done this 2nd day of February, 2001, in the consulship of
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus and Marcus Cassius Julianus.
>
> In service,
> Livia Marcia Aurelia, Propraetrix
>
> EX DOMO PROPRAETORIS AMERICA AUSTROCCIDENTALIS
>
> Propraetorial Edict Appointing a Legate to the Territory
> Mons Petrosus, America Austroccidentalis
>
> GIVEN: That territories inside America Austroccidentalis
> have been established to foster local Nova Roma presence and
> identity on a territory-by-territory basis and for ease of
> administrative oversight of the provincia; and
>
> GIVEN: The publication of Propraetorial Edicta establishing
> territories and providing for the administration of
> territories issues November 29, 2000; and
>
> GIVEN: That a qualified candidate has presented for the
> Legateship, based on record of current service to Nova Roma
> and desire to serve Nova Roma in the future:
>
> It is the stated intention of the Propraetrix to provide a
> positive opportunity for the Legate to serve Nova Roma with
> this appointment and to grow as a citizen through the chance
> to perform good works visible to the Senate and People of
> Nova Roma.
>
> I. Iulia Cornelia Gaia is hereby appointed as Legata,
> territory of Austroccidentalis Mons Petrosus, until such
> time as it is no longer the pleasure of the Propraetrix to
> retain the services of Cornelia for whatever reason.
>
> II. The duties of Cornelia as Legata will primarily be the
> establishment of events local to the regio of Colorado and
> the recruitment of new cives to Nova Roma, and secondly
> administrative responsibilities both for the territory of
> appointment and the provincia as assigned by the
> Propraetrix.
>

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] RE: Language
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:17:32 -0500

Salve,

Your idea that it is easier to provide translations *after* the fact is not
borne out in experience here. There is, often enough, fair complaint about
the high level of list traffic during the heated debates you mention. To
add to that multiple copies of the same post in more than one language,
simply adds to the problem.

It has happened here once (before my tenure as Curatrix) that a person
posted in another language, several members posted translations, then
several replies appeared in both languages, and when all was done we wound
up with about 9 posts that could have been covered in two.

For a list that receives upwards of 1200 messages per month, on which
numerous members have requested that we keep "extraneous" messages to a
minimum, it is only fair to attempt to make posting as concise as possible.

Vale,

Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonem

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Album Civium Issue
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:21:46 -0600 (CST)

Salve Pompeia,

> I know hardcopy can be expensive, but atleast it is there and cannot be
> "deleted" or victim to a "crash". Even a means of electronic duplication
> would be better than just having one record.

I'm doing daily backups now. Occasionally one of these will be moved
off-site.

Previously, the backups had been monthly...

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Language
From:	alexanderprobus@--------
Date:	Fri, 02 Feb 2001 14:23:30 -0000

Salvete Qviritibus ,

Just looking today for the news on the list, I saw the "language"
discussion. Could anyone tell me, where is that controversial
original post, which started it? What was its content and in what a
language it was published? I think the best solution for such
contraversial insulting posts is to be ignored.

Thank you and a nice weekend to all of you.

Alexander I.C. Probus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Language
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Fri, 02 Feb 2001 12:52:05 -0200

alexanderprobus@-------- wrote:
>
> Salvete Qviritibus ,
>
> Just looking today for the news on the list, I saw the "language"
> discussion. Could anyone tell me, where is that controversial
> original post, which started it? What was its content and in what a
> language it was published? I think the best solution for such
> contraversial insulting posts is to be ignored.
>
Original message was :
Reaffirmation of List policy :
Totally non-english posts are NOT welcome.
Messages need at least to contain an english translation, our Curatrix
offers to find the translator prior to publication on the list.

No actual case happened, we are discussing the official policy of the
list.

Manius Villius Limitanus



> Thank you and a nice weekend to all of you.
>
> Alexander I.C. Probus
>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Maestitia
From:	Craig Stevenson <dougies@-------->
Date:	Sat, 03 Feb 2001 01:52:50 +1030

Ave Vado,

My deepest condolences to you. I know that I can't possibly know how you feel at this point in time, but I do know what it's like to loose someone you've loved. I know how empty would be any words of mine to help you sound in this time of greiving, but I hope you know that my best wishes, as I'm sure do the best
wishes of all of Nova Roma go out to you in this time of mourning.

Vale Vado,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

Nick Ford wrote:

> N. Moravius Quiritibus Novae Romae salutem dat
>
> Early this evening, Aletheia Moravia's father died suddenly in hospital, two days after a serious but apparently succesful operation. Please excuse my silent absence for a little while hereafter.
>
> He had a great regard for the Roman army, as the progenitor of the army he knew and loved. He served in one of its finest units, commanding his first turma in Deva and returning to Britannia to command his last cohort in Cataractorum.
>
> None of you knew him, but I am sure many of you have known men of his quality. I humbly ask that any of you who have respect for such, and what their service stands for, to spare a prayer for the spirit of Major Derek Gordon Hughes, and those of us who are feeling that the world is diminished by his departing.
>
> Vale
>
> Vado.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Language
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:47:09 -0600

I agree.

QS


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kanat Elibol" <kelibol@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 6:47 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Language


> >
>
>
> Avete to all...
>
> I have a few things to say here as a person who is
> trying to improve his Latin hopelessly..(and I used to think
> that Italian was hard!)..
> I have no objection to the posts or Forum conversations
> in other languages than English...When I see them I simply
> disregard them..
> But about the Latin posts written by the cives with some
> Latin background..Please do write an English translation
> somewhere so that I can make out some meaning.That would be
> really helpful..
> Show some mercy for the souls like me who are trying to
> find his/her way in the Labriynth of Latin..
>
> Valete bene..
>
> Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Subject:	[novaroma] Digest No 1213 Re: Century Points
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
Date:	Fri, 2 Feb 2001 12:20:42 -0500

Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Omnibus SPD


> From: "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
> Subject: Re: Century Points
>
> Ave
>
> My comments below:

> >.....hope
> > the poor schmucks stuck with tracking this get 100 century
> > points.
>
> Well Livia, you were appointed by the Senate of Nova Roma. So, you were
> therefore invested with certain powers and responsiblities.
>
> > Think of this. Century points are like currency.
> > purchasing power.
>
> I disagree. Very soon, I will be posting on the NR list a plan that C.
> Marius Merullus and I completed that will expand the century point system
> that was orignally drafted by our Noble Consul Flavius Vedius Germancius.
> It will take into consideration such participation as members and creators
> of Sodalitas, Lictors, Scribes, Assensus, Legates, etc etc. I think that
by
> providing some century points to various modes of particiaption it might
> create more participation overall.
> <Snip>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Censor of Nova Roma

L Equitius; I really hope that my colleague will consider my opinion before
he introduces any proposed changes.

Valete, Censor L Equitius Cincinnatus

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Place names
From:	alexanderprobus@--------
Date:	Fri, 02 Feb 2001 17:40:31 -0000

Salvete omnes,

I would like just to pay my two qvadrances to the issue.
Someone could say The Thermopyles are more than a rocky massive or a
village 15 km southward from the city of Lamia. It is a symbol of a
menkind moral peak,a famed feat a word, which makes chill shivers
going down my spine. Nowhere and never before and after in the
history so small group of MEN met so great pre-power so calm and
bravy. 300 against 1 700 000. That speaks one for all.
Thermopyles are in everyone's mind of us - only the role we play is
different. Once we are Xerxsi, other time Efialti or Spartiati...
As for the last ones - in the modern city of Sparti, just infront the
city stadium is the bronze statue of Leonidas - a statue made by the
moder Greek sculpture Falireas.

Bene valete

Alexander Iul. Caes. Probus

P.S. I know, one could correct the numbers I have shown. Some modern
scribers have written other ones. Nevertheless I tend to believe the
ancient authors.

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Maestitia
From:	razenna@--------
Date:	Fri, 02 Feb 2001 18:53:24 -0000

Salvete Vado and family.

At your convenience, I would like to know Maj. Hughes regiment so I
may name them when I burn an offering. It is a debt that can never be
repaid.

Valete.
Ericius.

--- In novaroma@--------, Craig Stevenson <dougies@i...> wrote:
> Ave Vado,
>
> My deepest condolences to you. I know that I can't possibly know how
you feel at this point in time, but I do know what it's like to loose
someone you've loved. I know how empty would be any words of mine to
help you sound in this time of greiving, but I hope you know that my
best wishes, as I'm sure do the best
> wishes of all of Nova Roma go out to you in this time of mourning.
>
> Vale Vado,
>
> Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura
>
> Nick Ford wrote:
>
> > N. Moravius Quiritibus Novae Romae salutem dat
> >
> > Early this evening, Aletheia Moravia's father died suddenly in
hospital, two days after a serious but apparently succesful operation.
Please excuse my silent absence for a little while hereafter.
> >
> > He had a great regard for the Roman army, as the progenitor of the
army he knew and loved. He served in one of its finest units,
commanding his first turma in Deva and returning to Britannia to
command his last cohort in Cataractorum.
> >
> > None of you knew him, but I am sure many of you have known men of
his quality. I humbly ask that any of you who have respect for such,
and what their service stands for, to spare a prayer for the spirit of
Major Derek Gordon Hughes, and those of us who are feeling that the
world is diminished by his departing.
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Vado.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >

Subject:	[novaroma] Vergil Question.
From:	Matt Haase <haase@-------->
Date:	Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:38:16 -0600 (CST)

Salvete,

This was sent to webmaster@-------- If anyone would like to
answer, please send your replies directly to mongelli@--------

From: mongelli: "First mongelli:Last" <mongelli@--------> ;

Do you know anything of the reference, in Virgil 7, 109, to the "fated
crusts." I would be most interested and grateful to know.

Thank you

Greg Critser

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Century Points
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 2 Feb 2001 16:21:06 -0500

Salvete;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmvick32@-------- [mailto:gmvick32@--------]
> Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 01:08
>
> I discourage the allotment of century points for tasks. If
> you want to expand the century points for assuming and
> holding a minor office such as a provincial legate or
> scribe, where I currently don't think we do it, that's
> fine.

I do agree with much of what you say about the points for tasks, but that
was just tossed out as an example, and wasn't really the thrust of my post.
Even putting that question aside, I think the multiplying-by-ten idea is
still needed for when we start having people elected/appointed to local or
provincial positions. After all, I think that serving as a scribus to a
duumvirus* should have some reward, but having that reward be 10% of the
reward for a serving Tribune of the Plebs is probably a little excessive. I
just want us to have the flexibility to make those decisions when the time
comes.

* Just a hypothetical example. The duumviri were the magistrates in charge
of towns, and it seemed like a good analogy for local chapters.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

"For Gracchus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
bad one." (Crassus in the film "Spartacus")

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Language
From:	Gian G Reali <piscinus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:19:31 -0800

Salvete Curatrix Sermonem Priscilla Vedia et Quirites

The junior Tribunus Plebis arises from his sickbed to make
comment.

Scripsisti:
> I am afraid I have to correct a very basic misconception put forth
here.
> Citizenship and list postings have absolutely nothing to do with each
other.
> In point of fact, this list is open to both citizens and noncitizen
alike.
> I would also point out that when psts appear here from non-English
speakers
> I make every effort to partner the poster with a translator.
>
Iterum scripsisti:
I don't know how to be any more clear:
languages other than English are more than welcome here as long as a
translation into English is provided so that list members may understand
the
post. That hardly amount to stripping individuals of their native
languages. This is simply a matter of realistic communication and
maintenance of list traffic.

Contrary to what you have written in a previous post, a right to
post to official Nova Roma lists and citizenship are clearly related in
the Constitution. Under the section on citizenship the Constitution
states, II.B.4:

"The following rights of the citizens shall be guaranteed...4.
The right to participate in all public forums and discussions, and the
right to reasonably expect such forums to be supported by the State.
Such communications, regardless of their content, may not be restricted
by the State, except where they represent an imminent and clear danger to
the Republic. Such officially sponsored forums may be expected to be
reasonably moderated in the interests of maintaining order and civility."

I would commend you as Curatrix Sermonem in your attempts to
assist our citizens, should they seek translations of their posts or of
the posts of others. I am sure many would appreciate such an effort.
However, any *requirement* that the posts of our citizens be accompanied
with a translation into any particular language I would regard as an
unconstitutional restriction by the State on the rights of an individual
citizen. Clearly, the posting to our official and public forums is a
right of all citizens, guaranteed by our Constitution. Clearly, posting
in a language other than a recognized lingua franca does not constitute
an *imminent and clear danger to the Republic.* Clearly, mandating that
all posts be accompanied with a translation to any one particular
language would be a restriction placed on some of our citizens. And
clearly, to make such a requirement could not be construed as a
*reasonable* exercise in moderating the lists with regard to maintaining
order and civility. You may reasonably require that a degree of civility
and common courtesy be used in any postings. But you may not restrict
*content* except on such very narrow grounds where it poses a threat to
the well-being of our res publica. Simply posting in a language other
than English could not be construed as such.

I can appreciate the fact that you would seek to have posts to
our main list be comprehensible to the majority, if not all of our
citizens. But if we must face the fact that most of our citizens do have
some degree of comprehension of English, then we must also appreciate the
fact that some of our citizens do not. That does not make them any less
citizens, and certainly we should not establish policies that may be
construed to make them such. Were we instead to make it a policy that
*all* posts be accompanied with Latin translations we would surely see an
immediate drop off in participation by many who now post to our lists.
Were a Curatrix Sermonem to make a policy *requiring* that all posts be
accompanied with an English translation today, then we could have a
future Curatrix Sermonem announce a policy requiring that all future
posts be made in the only true civil tongue, that of Mandarin. Ni shu
chung-wa ma? Or perhaps a future policy might require that all posts be
accompanied with translations into diverse languages so as to be
comprehensible by all our citizens. None of these proposals would work
to the benefit our res publica. Such a policy as you propose, whether
announced or simply placed in practise, would not be in the best interest
of serving our res publica. It would, in effect, discourage
participation on the part of at least some of our citizens. It would
discourage others from joining our res publica. While your intent may be
well-meaning, making a *requirement* such as you propose would be an
error in judgement. It is that *requirement* that you suggest which I
find contrary to the interests of the State.

I applaud your effort to increase comprehension of our postings.
Let us try to form a policy that works to the benefit of all our
citizens. Not just some, not just the majority. All our citizens. We
should really look at this issue as one that attempts to assist our
citizens more. For that purpose I would suggest you make an announcement
requesting others to offer you their services as translators for those
who might like the assistance. Let us try to find out first what primary
languages are spoken by our diverse citizens, and what languages we may
need translators for. Then attempt to build a body of scribae who may
act as translators. If in any small way I may be able to assist, then I
place myself at your convenience. We really should be seeking ways to
open up new avenues of communication so that *all* our citizens and all
applicants for citizenship feel that they are able to fully participate
in our res publica. It is the diversity of our citizenship that may make
Nova Roma unique as a micronation. We should always seek to strengthen
that diversity, and seek ways to better incorporate it into our res
publica.


Valete

Gn. Moravius Piscinus
Tribunus Plebis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]