Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Decuria Lictores?
From:	nramos@--------
Date:	Wed, 07 Feb 2001 01:01:41 -0000

Salve Quirites!

A quick question, for those cives who have been here much longer than
I have - Whatever happened to the Decuriae Lictores? I have seen in
some of the older archives references to our Lictores (the
illustrious
Venator, and the honorable M. Minucius Audens, among others) but no
such reference in our present discussions.

Have we dropped the offices? Or is it that since we do not have
"State
Processions" we no longer bother with it? Just thought I'd get your 2
sestercii worth of thoughts on this...

Optime Vale, et Iuppiter nos protegas

Marius Cornelius Scipio


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Decuria Lictores?
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:09:47 -0800

Actually I am a Lictor. I do know that M. Cassius asked for volunteers for
new Lictors from those citizens that have not participated. But we few
remaining Lictors are alive and well! :)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
*Lictor and proud of it.*
----- Original Message -----
From: <nramos@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 5:01 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Decuria Lictores?

> Salve Quirites!
>
> A quick question, for those cives who have been here much longer than
> I have - Whatever happened to the Decuriae Lictores? I have seen in
> some of the older archives references to our Lictores (the
> illustrious
> Venator, and the honorable M. Minucius Audens, among others) but no
> such reference in our present discussions.
>
> Have we dropped the offices? Or is it that since we do not have
> "State
> Processions" we no longer bother with it? Just thought I'd get your 2
> sestercii worth of thoughts on this...
>
> Optime Vale, et Iuppiter nos protegas
>
> Marius Cornelius Scipio
>
>
>
>
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Decuria Lictores?
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:28:08 -0800 (PST)

--- "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
wrote:
> Actually I am a Lictor. I do know that M. Cassius
> asked for volunteers for
> new Lictors from those citizens that have not
> participated. But we few
> remaining Lictors are alive and well! :)
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> *Lictor and proud of it.*

Did anything ever come of M Cassius's request for new
lictors? I wrote him three times privately and once
on this list and got no response. If I am not
suitable, I wish he/someone would tell me so, rather
than leave me hanging.

L Aetius Dalmaticus

=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"The cemeteries are full of indispensible men." --Charles de Gaulle

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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Subject:	[novaroma] On The Laws Of Magick
From:	"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 01:16:53 -0000

Salvete

Sic S. Ambrosia Fulvia:

>Actually, if one follows the Laws of Magic, the name of the thing equals
the
>thing. Identifying something as, say, a sheep, would confer "sheep-ness"
>upon that item.

I think it is important to point out here that to think or intend something
in power
only makes that thing so in the realms in which it is possible for it to be
so. Consider, if you will, the arguments between the Protestants and
Catholics over the doctrine of transubstantiation: according to this dictum,
they can both be right. Astrally, that semolina wafer may be the Body and
Blood of Christ; in terms of the sensory world, it's a semolina wafer.
Similarly, a communion wafer over which the Mass has been recited without
mental intention that it be transformed, or host the body of Christ, remains
only a semolina wafer (an old priest once told me that consecrated hosts
were required of Catholic priests in German-occupied countries, at gunpoint,
by the Nazi SS during the Second World War, and I see no reason to
disbelieve him)(my argument here is that only the god and the sacrificing
individual know the effectual reality, or otherwise, of the thing done).

>So if one drew a picture of a sheep on a piece of paper and
>then said "This is my sheep which I shall sacrifice to the gods!" and then
>that person slit the "sheep's" throat with a dagger after first knocking it
>ceremonially on the head with a double=peened ("pulley") stone hammer, (or
>in the Modern Imperium, a ball peen hammer would do!) that should count.

Well, this is no more true than to say that a picture of a god IS the god.
In a sense, it can be argued that it is, in that it MAY in certain cases be
more than merely symbolic or representational, but it must be remembered
that the picture is in no way the all and everything of the god. If this
were not so, one could draw a picture of a poleaxed sheep with its throat
already cut, in your hypothetical magickal ritual sacrifice, which would be
a considerably labour-saving convenience. Or one might choose to compromise,
by felling the picture of the sheep with a picture of a poleaxe, then
cutting its pictorial throat with a picture of a knife. For myself, I can't
help but feel that this is turning religio and the pax deorum into a kind of
Pollock's Toy Theatre. Where is the value of such a two-dimensional
sacrifice?

>> I know that the Romans were somewhat obsessive about ensuring that
>> traditional rituals were followed exactly, and that they believed the
>> slightest deviation would invalidate the prayer/ritual/etc.

Nota bene: this belief is sincerely held by some citizens of our respublica
no less (not me, but there are limits to what I think the gods can be
persuaded to accept - and, in my own, admittedly subjective, experience, the
nature of the sacrifice is negotiable with some gods, but not with others).

>True...but if one did follow the Laws of Magic, one could get by. Similar
>artifices were used in defixiones at the time.

I personally don't do religion to "get by". Besides, I have studied dozens
of defixiones, and none that I have encountered attempt to substitute the
description of the thing offered for the thing itself, but are rather a
communication of intent, on the lines of: "Lady Sulis Minerva, I give to you
my ring which someone stole from the apodyterium at the baths when I was
bathing; may that person, be they male or female, slave or free, know
neither peace, health nor prosperity until they offer you that ring in one
of your sactuaries."

Besides, magickal practice is not religious practice. Magick and religion
co-exist in parallel in any culture, and although it is almost impossible
for me to define the two as absolutely separate kinds of practice, it seems
to me that magick is generally about enforcing one's will, whereas religion
is about making requests. One is dubious, the other, wholesome.

Anyway... I wonder how I would feel if I were a god, and someone tried to
offer me a symbol of a sacrifice as if it were the thing itself? Much as I
would feel, I think, as if I were hungry and was offered a photograph of a
bacon sandwich (I like bacon sandwiches, but am indifferent to pictorial
representations of them); and I would not feel enriched if anyone bestowed
on me a piece of paper on which were written the words: "One Hundred
Thousand Pounds" (at best it would probably be a rubber cheque, right?).

This is a big, contentious subject; perhaps we could develop it on the
ReligioRomana list?

Pace deorum,

Vado.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:35:22 -0800 (PST)

--- Michel Loos <loos@--------> wrote:

> It seems to me that choosing -0.5% of list traffic
> over freedom of
> speach is a very dangerous attitude nearing to
> fascism.
> What next ? the words democracy and freedom will be
> unwelcome ?

Oh come on...Good Lord! This is outrageous! I have
tried to stay out of this political infighting, but
this statement just makes my blood boil. There is no
fascist intent here. The idea is to make sure that as
many people as possible can read and understand the
posts. The author of the previous message and those
who agree with him have twisted it to mean the
opposite. While I have no problem with them
disagreeing with the rule, accusations of fascism and
the end of democracy and freedom are totally
unnecessary. Can you find no way of disagreeing with
the rule without personally insulting its author?

L Aetius Dalmaticus

=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"The cemeteries are full of indispensible men." --Charles de Gaulle

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Me Absente
From:	"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 01:28:11 -0000

EX DOMO PROPRAETORIS BRITANNIAE

Nicolaus Moravius Quiritibus Novae Romae plurimam salutem

I shall be incommunicado until 12 February on family business. During this time, I give my proxy in any vote of the Senate to the good and noble Senator Caius Aelius Ericius; I delegate any matters appurtaining to the government of Britannia to the loyal and dutiful Procurator Britanniae Publius Claudius Lucentius Severus Bicurratus; and any matters relating to gens Moravia I would refer to my eldest and wellbeloved son Cnaeus Moravius Piscinus.

Avete

Vado.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Decuria Lictores?
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:28:08 -0800 (PST)


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] What role is there for women in NR? My wife wants to know
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 6 Feb 2001 22:35:44 -0600

Salvete Arria Rutilia Emapanda et omnes;
-----Original Message-----
From: atheleas@-------- [mailto:atheleas@--------]
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 12:33 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] What role is there for women in NR? My wife wants to
know

In a message dated 2/3/01 5:11:15 PM Central Standard Time,
germanicus@-------- writes:

<< But I think you're asking more about real-world meetings (possibly
because
I've had such on my mind lately), and here we are really exploring new
territory. >>

Okay, here's my question. I am a newish citizen and all the FAQ's seemed to
deal with BECOMING a member of Nova ROma. Is there a "so now you're a
citizen" page that I missed somewhere?

OFS: Not per se that I've seen, though not a bad idea. I'd refer you
back to the recent threads regarding Theodorus Tiberius Germanicus
inquiries for his wife. As you'll probably note from these, the process
indeed can be a bit more discovery-oriented than some may prefer.
On the other hand, there is such great freedom here to largely do what
one wants in terms of Roman-centric activities and studies.

What myself and others have done to find our true 'leanings' if you
will has been to subscribe to a wide variety of Yahoogroups listings.
There's something like 32 or so NR-related groups. Pompeia's previous
mail discusses most of the most relevant ones. Probably the best advice
I could give a new citizen is to open the throttle as widely as possible
during the first few weeks and months of citizenship, join some Sodalitas,
join the provincial lists and see what others are doing. While perhaps
not ideally structured for some, again the lack of same also provides
a wealth of opportunity to do really great things here.

Besides, we'd (ok, at least speaking for myself) hate to see new cives
feel pigeonholed by a multitude of official statements on 'here are the
prescribed things to see and do within NR.' Rather, the 'open for
interpretation'
aspect of our citizenship allows for citizens to really let their creative
energies run wild and maybe come up with some new things.

Also, is Nova Roma going to become a
SCA-type of group that meets in the "real world", or is it just a cyber
nation?

OFS: Ah yes, a subject near and dear to me :-) Yes, there are a great
many of us who are working feverishly on ensuring that Nova Roma becomes
an increasingly 'physical' entity and less of a 'virtual' entity. As far
as the physical gatherings, yes this starts with the provinces. Though I'm
currently writing this message in a place where I don't have access to
view the provincial structures, I know there at least a handful of VERY
active citizens in or around Illinois. Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
et Marcus Octavius Germanicus come to mind.

Also, I live in Illinois, is anyone here organizing real-world
events in my state?

OFS: I think Venator is addressing provincial event in his
mail. I might just add that at the national level, we're in
the process of trying to put together a major festival called
'Rubicon.' Though am not sure of the current status of this,
you might mail Consul Germanicus directly regarding the details.
Also, feel free to initiate gatherings on your own (these
are always welcome!), or to join in on the events in other
provinces if your means allow for it.

Hope this helps!

Bene valete,
Oppius Flaccus Severus
Sacerdos Neptunus

<snipped>


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Century Points
From:	JSmithCSA@--------
Date:	Wed, 07 Feb 2001 08:16:56 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...>
wrote:
> Fl Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.,
>
> A thought occurred to me the other day when considering the
question of
> Century Points.

I had another thought on this.

It seems to me that the bulk of our recruiting is done by the
gentes. If that is true (I'm willing to hear other opinions on it),
then awarding some number of points to a Pater- or Materfamilias who
has 5 of more members in their gens [although I am a P-Fam, I don't
have 5 members yet, so this is not self-centered]. An alternative
would be to award points directly for enrolling new members [they
would have to say that you talked them into it].

L Aetius Dalmaticus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Century Points
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 06 Feb 2001 23:35:52 -0800

Ave

My comments below:

JSmithCSA@-------- wrote:

> --- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...>
> wrote:
> > Fl Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.,
> >
> > A thought occurred to me the other day when considering the
> question of
> > Century Points.
>
> I had another thought on this.
>
> It seems to me that the bulk of our recruiting is done by the
> gentes. If that is true (I'm willing to hear other opinions on it),
> then awarding some number of points to a Pater- or Materfamilias who
> has 5 of more members in their gens [although I am a P-Fam, I don't
> have 5 members yet, so this is not self-centered]. An alternative
> would be to award points directly for enrolling new members [they
> would have to say that you talked them into it].
>
> L Aetius Dalmaticus

Thank you for making this post, I think this will be an excellent
introduction to a proposed Century Point revision that C. Marius Merullus
and I worked on last year. Unfortunately we were not able to get this
successfully promulgated but hopefully this year our Noble Consuls Flavius
Vedius and Marcus Cassius might be able to promulgate this. I also sent
this copy to my colleague Lucius Equitius too, but as of yet we haven't
discussed this. So, there might be some minor changes but this is the copy
that C. Marius Merullus and I agreed upon. But, without further adieu, here
is the proposed legislation:

_______________

Lucius Cornelius Sulla wrote:

>
> Legates appointed by Imperium bearing Magistrates - 5 pts
>
> Apparitores, Accensi, Scribes of Senior Magistrates (Censors, Consuls
> and Praetors) - 5 pts.
>
> Members of Officially Sanctioned Sodalitates - 1 pt
>
> Persons of Authority in Officially Sanctioned Sodalitates - 5 pts
>
> Founders of Officially Sanctioned Sodalitates (can be individuals or
> committee) - 10 pts.
>
> Lictors - 3 pts.
>
> Paterfamilias/Materfamilias - 5 pts
>
> Every Plebian Pater/Mater who brings in a new member will get an
> additional 3 pts PER new member. This is NOT retroactive.
>
> Every Patrician Pater/Mater who brings in a new member will get an
> additional 1 pts PER new member. This is NOT retroactive.
>
> Current Senate Service - 30 pts
> Current Service as Consul or Censor - 40 pts.
> Current Service as Praetor - 30 pts
> Current Service as Tribune of the Plebs - 25 pts
> Current Service as Aedile or Quaestor - 15 pts
> Current Service as Vigin - 10 pts
>
> Past Service as a Curule Magistrate (Censor, Consul, or Praetor) - 15
> pts
> Past Service as a Junior Magistrate (Aedile, Quaestor) - 10 Pts
> Past Service as Vigin - 5 pts.
>
> Dictator - 40 pts
> Master of the Horse - 15 pts
>
> Unsuccessfully ran for office - 2 pts
>
> Successfully completed the Cursus Honorum (in order Quaestor, Praetor
> (or governor), Consul) - 50 pts.
>
> Religio Offices:
>
> Pontifex Maximus and the 3 Major Flamens (Dialis, Quirinus and
> Martialis) and Rex (Regina) Sacorum- 40 Pts
>
> Members of the College of Pontifices and Augures - 25 Pts
>
> Minor Flamines and other Priesthoods - 15 pts

Addendum: This lex makes no changes in regards to the point allocation
in regards to the length one has been a citizen in Nova Roma.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

____________

End of post.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma


Subject:	Slippery paths (was Re: [novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression)
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Tue, 6 Feb 2001 20:43:28 +0100

Salvete Quirites,

I find this debate on the list policy interesting and a little useless at
the same time, because it deals with a very marginal problem, as far as it
could even be considered a problem.

I basically agree with the fact that if someone has to say something on the
Forum Romanum, said person should try to make himself understandable in the
best way, which means the use of English here. For more than a good half of
the citizenry this isn't a real problem, as English is their mother
language. The rest of our civitas who doesn't have English as mother tongue
can be divided in two groups:

A) Semi-anglophones, meaning they are pretty good to very good at the
language, but still make mistakes here and there, which sometimes causes
problems and unnecessary discussions, especially in a voiceless medium such
as an email list. I guess I fall into this category. It's really frustrating
when people don't get what you're saying, or mispercieve it, even though
you're pretty good at their own language.

B) Allophones, meaning they speak very little to no English, but have at
least a passive understanding of what's being said. While the idea of having
volunteers to assist these people with translating their postings is not bad
on its face, it will inevitably be so that those people's words will get
mangled up in the translation, either by making it clumsy sounding English
(if translated by people in group A) or making it different than it was
originally meant (what normal anglophones will inevitably do).

So, what's my idea for a solution? Allow people to express them as they
choose. Not having a sufficient knowledge of English to participate on our
Forum here is somewhat a handicap, but let them choose their own solutions.
If they want translators, they'll ask. If they don't, then don't oblige them
to be patronized. And what Consul Vedius says about the use of own languages
in provincial lists is certainly true, but I believe many of those lists lie
dormant, an age-old provincial problem, so this is barely a substitute for
being able to engage in interesting (the smell of irony!) debates here.

Valete,
Sextus Apollonius Draco


Subject:	[novaroma] RE: Slippery paths
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 07:28:32 -0500

Salve,

I believe this will be my last public response on this topic, as I am
getting quite tired of repeating myself and little more can come of such
posts. There will simply have to be those who "agree to disagree" and
adhere to the policy regardless. That being said.....

The very fact that you have made the assumption that translations will
"inevitably" either be wrong or awkward is quite telling. I myself speak
more than one language and have no trouble being equally eloquent in either
one. Translators, especially those kind enough to step forward and
volunteer, have no cause to "inevitably" mangle what they are given. I
would note, again with curiosity, that you are yet another person who
"objects" to the policy, does indeed speak more than one language, and yet
have not seen fit to offer your assistance.

To say that those who are offered help are being "patronized" amounts to
little more, in my mind, than the irresponsible use of rhetoric and
inflammatory language that we see so often from some here. Please consider
that, as is the case here, a policy is set to help folks, with good
intentions and, quite frankly, good results. You don't have to like it
personally, but since you are unwilling to be of help as a translator and it
IS working for those who need it, I would suggest you either become part of
the solution or cease attempting to create problems and seeing
"patronization" where absolutely none exists. The only "slippery path" here
is one lined in baseless accusations.

I will say again, and for the last time, you are free to disagree with the
policy. The policy however, is fair, equitable and....most importantly...is
working wonderfully for those who have a need for it. I would call upon
you, therefore, to drop the buzzwords such as "patronization", as there is
no basis in fact for such absurd claims.

Vale,

Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonem

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Language, is it an issue? - The Facts
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 07 Feb 2001 03:29:52 -0800

With all this debate on language, and since I being Censor, I took it
upon myself to ask Senator M. Octavius to prepare for me a database
listing all of the countries where all of our citizens listed on their
applications for citizenship.

Listed below are the results I have found after about 2 hours of
interpreting the data:

United States - 508
Italy - 75
Canada - 59
Great Britian - 53
Brazil - 37
Australia - 31
Germany - 20
Portugal - 12
Spain - 11
Belgium - 9
France - 9
Argentina - 8
Slovak Republic - 7
Switzerland - 7
Austria - 6
Nigeria - 6
Sweden - 6
Yugoslavia - 6
Netherlands - 5
Turkey - 5
Finland - 4
Denmark - 3
Mexico - 3
New Zealand - 3
Poland - 3
Croatia - 2
Czech Republic - 2
Hungary - 2
Israel - 2
Russia - 2
Bulgaria - 1
Columbia - 1
Costa Rica - 1
Greece - 1
Ireland - 1
Japan - 1
Jordan - 1
Kazakhstan - 1
Korea - 1
Norway - 1
Philippines - 1
Romania - 1
Singapore - 1
South Africa - 1
Urugray - 1
Morocco - 1

I hope many will find this data useful. I know I sure did as I have
spent hours analyzing it.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma


Subject:	[novaroma] Consular Edictum: Quaestor Assignments
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 07:59:06 -0500

Fl Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.,

The Quaestores for this year are hereby assigned to their respective
magistrates as follows:

Flavius Vedius Germanicus (Consul): Secunda Cornelia Valeria
Marcus Cassius Julianus (Consul): Patricia Cassia
Quintus Fabius Maximus (Praetor): Marcus Minucius Audens
Caius Flavius Diocletianus (Praetor): Lucilla Cornelia Cinna
Marius Cornelius Scipio (Curule Aedile): Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Titus Sertorius Albinus (Curule Aedile): Quintus Sertorius
Marcus Arminius Maior (Plebeian Aedile): Lucius Tiberius Sardonicus
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus (Plebeian Aedile): Caeso Fabius Quintilianus

I am pleased to report that almost all of the Quaestor assignments were made
according to requests received.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

"For Gracchus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
bad one." (Crassus in the film "Spartacus")

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org


Subject:	[novaroma] linguistic expression
From:	"Caius Fabius" <SPQR_HQ@-------->
Date:	Wed, 07 Feb 2001 13:29:43 -0000

I Believe that if you make an OFFICIAL language for posting at NOVA ROMA the
language should be LATIN. All other missives should be translated into
LATIN.

I realize that the ego-centric English abusers find it hard to write in
English, let alone any other language, so learning LATIN would be helpful to
the illiteratii, so they might learn about their English language, as well
as the language of Rome.

After reading the many posts here, I am convinced that proper English is NOT
the language of this site. Could it be that certain citizens of certain
modern empires are too lazy to learn a new language? (Let alone learn and
use their own language?)

If you don't know Latin, then practising, here in the NOVA ROMA Forum would
increase your skills. If you do know Latin, you could teach and coach those
who do not. Here is an opportunity to prove you are serious about a
different macro-nation. Have a real language. Give the group a year to
switch over and allow bi-lingual posts until that date. Your children's
children with thank you for it!

Caius Fabius Varus
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] linguistic expression
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 05:38:13 -0800 (PST)

Alvesay,

Atinlay isay ootay ardhay. Iay ecommendray Igpay
Atinlay.

Uciuslay Aetiusay Almaticusday

--- Caius Fabius <SPQR_HQ@--------> wrote:
>
> I Believe that if you make an OFFICIAL language for
> posting at NOVA ROMA the
> language should be LATIN. All other missives should
> be translated into
> LATIN.

=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"The cemeteries are full of indispensible men." --Charles de Gaulle

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Language, is it an issue? - The Facts
From:	VMoeller@--------
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:33:11 EST

Ave Censor Sulla et Paterfamilias Corneliea:

Thank you so much for compiling this work on the global wide origins
of Nova Romans. I believe it will be extremely useful and practical in the
government. Again, my thanks.
Vale...---Secunda Cornelia Valeria


Subject:	[novaroma] Majority and Rules
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:57:58 -0500 (EST)

Salve, Honored Curile Aedile, Mario Cornelius Scipio;

I too have labored mightly over the posts on this list referring to the
"Fascist Magistrates" and those who are choking the freedom from our
state with thier greedy and grasping hands. As a member of that
"unholy" crew for the past years, I have been somewhat surprised to see
that label, in general, applied to me, my thoughts and my actions. As a
result, I have tried to make sense of these comments and accusations
against those who seemingly serve our Republic, under Oath and Law, to
the best of our ability with the dedication to provide for the "Will of
the Majority" and to insure the "Rights of the Minority." At last, my
fine fellow, in the words of your post the answer is revealed to me with
clarity and suddenness. I have never claimed to be a "quick study" but
I must apologize for the time that it has taken for me to see the
direction of my detractor's position. Here in the West, a great
emphasis is placed upon the Will of the Majority and the Rights of the
Minority, as well as the rule of Law and the Oath of Office.

However, it is clear to me, that if one does not or cannot, through
differences in cultural teachings, recognize the Will of the Majority as
predominate, and the Rights of the Minority as being subject to the
former, then the arguments of those who have graced the internet in
several past sweeping topics is rendered quite understandable. If these
citizens do not understand the thrust and duty of an Oath of Office, or
the binding elements of Laws and or Rules by which the Majority has
agreed to be governed in any specific area of endeavor, then arguments
from the "Western View" is simply the equivelent of speaking an unknown
language to one's opponent.

I am so elated with my discovery, (as all the elements fit--individual
needs trampling majority wishes, detailed single-minded arguments,
individualistic responses, idealistic views, contempt for organization,
rejection of Laws and Rules, name calling, ad nauseum) that at the
moment I am quite overcome with emotion, and have no suggestion for the
ultimate solution outside complete "anarchy" as our Honored Consul has
indicated. However, once having arrived at the crux of reasoning
enjoyed by those with whom I disagree, can a fair and reasonable
solution be far behind??

Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	[novaroma] Of arms and armour, opinions please
From:	qimaster@--------
Date:	Wed, 07 Feb 2001 16:14:40 -0000

I have been doing some cyber shopping and have noticed a great
disparity in pricing (like duh), and I have noticed that lorica is
priced between bargain basement 320.00 at www.blacksword.com, to a
higher end pricing of some 660.00 at valentine armouries to the
highest end $850 from Http://members.aol.com/gijchar/roman.htm#lorica.

the same goes for helmets, with blacksword.com having the most
affordable helmets.

any readers who have helmets and/or lorica, and have had a chance to
compare quality of design, comfort of wear and sturdiness of
construction, please let me (and others) know of your findings:)

many thanks

T. T. Germanicus


Subject:	[novaroma] Position of Trainer, or Lanista
From:	qimaster@--------
Date:	Wed, 07 Feb 2001 16:22:41 -0000

I wish to know if such a position is open, and if so, I wish to be
considered for it among those who make such appointments.

I am a martial artist with many years of weapon and barehanded skills
to my credit. I feel I could best make myself available in such a
position.

comments and corrections please:)

many thanks:)

TT Germanicus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Language, is it an issue? - The Facts
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:19:51 -0600

7 Feb 2001

Salve All

Thank you very much for this post Censor as I find it very illuminating to
say the least!

Vale

Quintus Sertorius

Quaestor
Nova Roma
Propraetor
Canada Occidentalis
quintus-sertorius@--------

Join the egroup for Canada Occidentalis
http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_CanOcc

Join the Sertorii egroup.
http://www.egroups.com/group/Sertorii

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lucius Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 5:29 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Language, is it an issue? - The Facts

> With all this debate on language, and since I being Censor, I took it
> upon myself to ask Senator M. Octavius to prepare for me a database
> listing all of the countries where all of our citizens listed on their
> applications for citizenship.
>
> Listed below are the results I have found after about 2 hours of
> interpreting the data:
>
> United States - 508
> Italy - 75
> Canada - 59
> Great Britian - 53
> Brazil - 37
> Australia - 31
> Germany - 20
> Portugal - 12
> Spain - 11
> Belgium - 9
> France - 9
> Argentina - 8
> Slovak Republic - 7
> Switzerland - 7
> Austria - 6
> Nigeria - 6
> Sweden - 6
> Yugoslavia - 6
> Netherlands - 5
> Turkey - 5
> Finland - 4
> Denmark - 3
> Mexico - 3
> New Zealand - 3
> Poland - 3
> Croatia - 2
> Czech Republic - 2
> Hungary - 2
> Israel - 2
> Russia - 2
> Bulgaria - 1
> Columbia - 1
> Costa Rica - 1
> Greece - 1
> Ireland - 1
> Japan - 1
> Jordan - 1
> Kazakhstan - 1
> Korea - 1
> Norway - 1
> Philippines - 1
> Romania - 1
> Singapore - 1
> South Africa - 1
> Urugray - 1
> Morocco - 1
>
> I hope many will find this data useful. I know I sure did as I have
> spent hours analyzing it.
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Censor of Nova Roma
>
>
>
>
>
>


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Position of Trainer, or Lanista
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:37:42 -0500

Salve;

I would suppose it depends on what you're interested in training! But it
sounds like we could use someone like you in the currently-being-organized
Sodalicum Munera (for gladiatorial combat). Let me know off-list if you're
interested!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

"For Gracchus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
bad one." (Crassus in the film "Spartacus")

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

> -----Original Message-----
> From: qimaster@-------- [mailto:qimaster@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 11:23
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] Position of Trainer, or Lanista
>
>
> I wish to know if such a position is open, and if so, I wish to be
> considered for it among those who make such appointments.
>
> I am a martial artist with many years of weapon and barehanded skills
> to my credit. I feel I could best make myself available in such a
> position.
>
> comments and corrections please:)
>
> many thanks:)
>
> TT Germanicus
>
>
>
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] linguistic expression
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:38:20 -0600

This is one Latin post I understand!!!??!

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Smith" <JSmithCSA@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] linguistic expression

> Alvesay,
>
> Atinlay isay ootay ardhay. Iay ecommendray Igpay
> Atinlay.
>
> Uciuslay Aetiusay Almaticusday
>
> --- Caius Fabius <SPQR_HQ@--------> wrote:
> >
> > I Believe that if you make an OFFICIAL language for
> > posting at NOVA ROMA the
> > language should be LATIN. All other missives should
> > be translated into
> > LATIN.
>
> =====
> LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
> HQ USAREUR/7A
> CMR 420, BOX 2839
> APO AE 09063-2839
>
> "The cemeteries are full of indispensible men." --Charles de Gaulle
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
>
>


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:16:02 +0100

Salvete omnes Quirites!

We are engaged in a very important debate on the question of freedom
of linguistic expression. I have observed with regret that words like
"Fascistic", "despotism" and "anarchy" are now being bandied about. I
fear that this will engender unnecessary ill will, and I hope that we
can continue this debate for as long as it is necessary in a manner
that will be more reasonable and civil.

I have no suspicion in *my* mind that our Curatrix Sermonis is
fascistic or despotic in her intentions. I believe that she thought
she saw a problem, saw that it was in her purview as Curatrix, and
proposed a solution that she saw as common-sensical and generous.

Despite that, I think that it was not a good idea. "Common sense" is
not all that common to us all, but differs from place to place. In
Europe, for example, the EU cannot agree to accept English as an
official lingua franca despite its practical dominance, because
people attach importance to their equality and very few people ever
become 100% as perfect and expressive in a second language as in
their mother tongue. France is famous for this, and sometimes even
persecutes (and prosecutes!) users of English where the State thinks
French should be protected. The German-speaking nations have also
recently dug in their heals at attempts to exclude their language
from working meetings of the EU, despite the expense of the
additional interpreters and translators.

Language is seen by many not only as a means of communication, but
as means of expression, personal identity and preference to which one
has a right. And English is seen by many in this world (not all,
certainly) as a language growing through American dollars and
stifling American popular culture. Not as something really neutral.

Whenever a magistrate "springs on us" a new rule or edictum that
takes away some freedom in response to a problem that many of us do
not perceive to be a problem, it makes the rest of us feel nervous
and powerless. When protests are made and the magistrate does not
listen to the arguments presented but remains unbending because no
one likes to back down from a position he has publicly taken, the
concerned citizens start feeling impotent to have any influence over
things that they feel they have a right to expect some control over,
and are not to be decided by any one person, whether wise and
benevolent or not, or whether elected a magistrate or not. People
become frustrated and angry. Words like "fascist" come easily to the
lips. And things go downhill from there.

Can we see this and step away from the brink? There is no problem
here on the List. If a tiny proportion of our postings is in a
language a given civis does not know, that is hardly dangerous to the
Respublica. And if the the quantity of posts in diverse languages
grows, then it will obviously because there is an audience of people
who understand them.

Although YahooGroups forces list owners to state a primary language,
that is to facilitate the language used by the automatic mailings,
not a requirement as to what language is used by posters. The Nova
Roma Vizantia list is also hosted by YahooGroups, and it uses any
languages people wish, with no problems. It is a perfect pleasure to
watch postings in Hungarian and Russian sail past on their Nova Roman
business, of which I understand nary a word, and often the same
people post in different languages as the mood strikes them or the
primary recipient(s) change. No one is hurt by this, and all gain by
the freedom and colourfulness.

However, the Vizantia List cannot take the place of the Main List,
where our most serious and general discussions occur. It is *here*
that we need freedom too, and freedom that does not try to give
English an unbalanced position by forcing people to have translations
*into* English without forcing English-users to get translations *out
of* English into the languages that others might prefer.

Someday we may need to work out a better long-term policy to secure
linguistic freedom, equality and effectiveness of communication for
all. For the moment we can get along with freedom on the Main List
and the use of the occasional translator, whether provided through
the assistance of the Curarix or by simple post facto volunteering.
If this is ever to be changed, it should be as a result of a lex or
plebescitum after long and considered public debate taking into
consideration all aspects of the problem.

For the moment, I respectfully ask our Curatrix to rephrase her
proposed policy statement to one that *offers* arrangement of
translation services to all who *wish* it, but says no word about any
unaccompanied languages being "unwelcome", which is ungracious to the
users of other tongues and unnecessary for the wellbeing of Nova
Roma. Show that you are listening to our concerns, Priscilla; they
are not inended to denigrate you, but simply to preserve freedoms
that some of us hold dear and which are not concretely hurting anyone
else. Very often the best rule is the one that is never made. Is this
not such a case?

Valete!

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, Aedilis Plebeius Novae Romae
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius;
Musaeus Collegii Polyhymniae Sodalitatis Musarum � �
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:46:34 -0500

Salvete;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: M. Apollonius Formosanus [mailto:bvm3@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 12:16

<snip>

As a public service, I would like to summarize this rather lengthy post for
those whose patience for this sort of thing is wearing thin:

"Can't we just do things my way?"

And to similarly summarize the inevitable response it will generate:

"No."

There. All the salient points are, I believe, pretty much covered. Now
hopefully we can move on to more productive topics.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

"For Gracchus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
bad one." (Crassus in the film "Spartacus")

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org


Subject:	[novaroma] Do you want to be a gladiator?
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:27:20 -0500

Salvete Omnes!

Yes-- just what you've been waiting for-- yet another a new mailing list!

The in-the-process-of-forming Sodalicum Munera email list is up and ready to
roll. If you're interested in gladiatorial combat, particularly with an eye
to actually holding such combats in a safe and yet still fun and exciting
environment, please feel free to join the list at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SodalitasMunera . Especially if you have
experience with reenactment combat (SCA, HACA, AEMMA, Markland, etc.) or
modern martial arts, we'd love to hear from you, but everyone is welcome!

It is my hope that this will eventually evolve into a staple of real-world
Nova Roma events; something to provide pageantry and excitement, maybe draw
in some crowds, and hopefully have a whole lot of fun in the process.

(Please note that the Sodalicum Munera has not yet been authorized by the
Senate, and is thus not an official Sodalicum of Nova Roma.)

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

"For Gracchus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
bad one." (Crassus in the film "Spartacus")

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Century Points
From:	"Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:21:29 +1300

Domna Claudia Auspicata Consulibus SPD

Interesting idea, just one question regarding...

'Every Plebian Pater/Mater who brings in a new member will get an
> additional 3 pts PER new member. This is NOT retroactive.
>
> Every Patrician Pater/Mater who brings in a new member will get an
> additional 1 pts PER new member. This is NOT retroactive.'

I am hoping 'who brings' is the important idea here, ie. the new citizen would need to claim that they were encouraged by the Mater/Pater. Otherwise any gens with a 'popular' name has more chance of gaining new family members than others. Could you confirm this?

Gratias multae
Domna Claudia Auspicata
ICQ 66807741

Thank you for making this post, I think this will be an excellent
introduction to a proposed Century Point revision that C. Marius Merullus
and I worked on last year. Unfortunately we were not able to get this
successfully promulgated but hopefully this year our Noble Consuls Flavius
Vedius and Marcus Cassius might be able to promulgate this. I also sent
this copy to my colleague Lucius Equitius too, but as of yet we haven't
discussed this. So, there might be some minor changes but this is the copy
that C. Marius Merullus and I agreed upon. But, without further adieu, here
is the proposed legislation:

_______________

Lucius Cornelius Sulla wrote:

>
> Legates appointed by Imperium bearing Magistrates - 5 pts
>
> Apparitores, Accensi, Scribes of Senior Magistrates (Censors, Consuls
> and Praetors) - 5 pts.
>
> Members of Officially Sanctioned Sodalitates - 1 pt
>
> Persons of Authority in Officially Sanctioned Sodalitates - 5 pts
>
> Founders of Officially Sanctioned Sodalitates (can be individuals or
> committee) - 10 pts.
>
> Lictors - 3 pts.
>
> Paterfamilias/Materfamilias - 5 pts
>
> Every Plebian Pater/Mater who brings in a new member will get an
> additional 3 pts PER new member. This is NOT retroactive.
>
> Every Patrician Pater/Mater who brings in a new member will get an
> additional 1 pts PER new member. This is NOT retroactive.
>
> Current Senate Service - 30 pts
> Current Service as Consul or Censor - 40 pts.
> Current Service as Praetor - 30 pts
> Current Service as Tribune of the Plebs - 25 pts
> Current Service as Aedile or Quaestor - 15 pts
> Current Service as Vigin - 10 pts
>
> Past Service as a Curule Magistrate (Censor, Consul, or Praetor) - 15
> pts
> Past Service as a Junior Magistrate (Aedile, Quaestor) - 10 Pts
> Past Service as Vigin - 5 pts.
>
> Dictator - 40 pts
> Master of the Horse - 15 pts
>
> Unsuccessfully ran for office - 2 pts
>
> Successfully completed the Cursus Honorum (in order Quaestor, Praetor
> (or governor), Consul) - 50 pts.
>
> Religio Offices:
>
> Pontifex Maximus and the 3 Major Flamens (Dialis, Quirinus and
> Martialis) and Rex (Regina) Sacorum- 40 Pts
>
> Members of the College of Pontifices and Augures - 25 Pts
>
> Minor Flamines and other Priesthoods - 15 pts

Addendum: This lex makes no changes in regards to the point allocation
in regards to the length one has been a citizen in Nova Roma.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

____________

End of post.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Century Points
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:39:08 -0600 (CST)

Salvete,

> Interesting idea, just one question regarding...
>
> 'Every Plebian Pater/Mater who brings in a new member will get an
> > additional 3 pts PER new member. This is NOT retroactive.
> >
> > Every Patrician Pater/Mater who brings in a new member will get an
> > additional 1 pts PER new member. This is NOT retroactive.'
>
> I am hoping 'who brings' is the important idea here, ie. the new citizen
> would need to claim that they were encouraged by the Mater/Pater.
> Otherwise any gens with a 'popular' name has more chance of gaining new
> family members than others. Could you confirm this?

I also don't see why there should be a difference in the point levels
for patrician or plebeian gentes. This will destroy the one advantage
there was to being patrician, the small century point bonus. Is there
a reason for the different point values here?

Vale, O.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator


Subject:	[novaroma] Roman Tour 2002
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:40:35 EST

Salvete,
While Marcus Antonius Lucius is not a Nova Roman, his Legio the Tenth, is
well known in Northern CA. Everything this man does is honorable and I have
no reservations recommending this project. It would be worth it just to meet
Connally.
Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

Greetings everyone,

You and your friends are invited to be a participant in a very special
Roman tour. This special tour of Roman sites and museums will perhaps be
a once in a lifetime adventure. Through special arrangements and
friendly connections here is what is being offered. This adventure will
be a two week tour. The first week will be traveling through France,
Germany, and Switzerland. The second week will be in England.

Our guide for the tour in Europe will be the leading Roman Historian,
Peter Connolly. He is extremely keen on conducting this part of the
tour. His tour schedule would include visits to the Roman museums at St.
Germain, Alesia, Hezvetii Battlefield, Saalburg Fort & Museum,
Teutoburger Forest, Ariovistus Battlefield, plus various other museums
and sites that he has visited frequently.

In England, we would have the guide services of another noted Roman
Historian, Charles Wesencraft, for our personal tour of Hadrian's Wall.
A visit to the Roman City of Bath would be included, if so desired.

From my own personal experiences of having traveled with the tour
services offered by Peter and Angela Smith, I can truly guarantee you
that it will be a very rewarding experience. The current estimated cost
for this journey, departing from Dulles Airport, Washington D.C. area, is
figured to be in the region of $ 2,250 per person. The ground distances
we will need to travel are approximately 2,400 miles. Traveling in
Europe is more costly than England.

This estimate is based upon a minimum reservation of 30 people
traveling. We can go up to about 48 people maximum. This is for one
bus load. In the past, their tours have included breakfast as part of
the cost. This trip would be scheduled for sometime in August, 2002.

Please respond to this invitation by Feb. 10th of at least expressing
your interest and intentions for going on this great Roman adventure. I
will be personally discussing this trip with Peter on the morning of Feb.
11th.

Yours truly,
Centurio Marcus Antonius Lucius
Legio X Fretensis - Cohors IV

Robert Garbisch
fireman_bob1@--------


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:01:18 -0200 (BRST)

On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:

> Salvete;
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: M. Apollonius Formosanus [mailto:bvm3@--------]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 12:16
>
> <snip>
>
> As a public service, I would like to summarize this rather lengthy post for
> those whose patience for this sort of thing is wearing thin:
>
> "Can't we just do things my way?"
>
> And to similarly summarize the inevitable response it will generate:
>
> "No."

It is exactly this type of a-priori positions which, with the seemingly
small, unneeded rules, that caracterize not fascism but the early steps
it took, both in Germany and Italy.

If you look at my post where I introduced this word, I said "nearing
fascism", not this is fascism.

To moderate what Formosanus said on France, and give an example on my
point: The law that banished english (and all other foreign languages)
which was voted by the french parliament has been declared
unconstitutional exactly because it did not respect Freedom of Expression
which is a Human Right. Consequently this law is not in effect.

The mainlist is our forum, restricting free expression on our forum is
a real problem.

A rule which stands "because I want it" and whose importance on the list
is preventing a maximum of 0.5 % extra list traffic, is neither a rule
made for the "Will of the majority" nor to "protect the rights of the
minority", it is just a trial of power.

Something that begins to frighten me is that it seems to me (I could be
mistaken) that the defended of the actual "unwelcomness" of non-english
posts is solely defended by US macronationals and perhaps other english
mother-tongue citizens. Doesn t this mean something?

I would hope it does not.

Manius Villius Limitanus

>
> There. All the salient points are, I believe, pretty much covered. Now
> hopefully we can move on to more productive topics.
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
> "For Gracchus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
> bad one." (Crassus in the film "Spartacus")
>
> email: germanicus@--------
> AIM: Flavius Vedius
> www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
>
>
>
>
>
>

Pr. Michel Loos | Phone: 55 11 818 3810 p. 216
Inst. de Quimica USP | Fax: 55 11 815 5579
PO Box 26077 05599-970 S�o Paulo, S SP
Brazil


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] RE: Slippery paths
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:50:26 +0100

S. Apollonius Draco P. Vediae Serenae SPD,

> I believe this will be my last public response on this topic, as I am
> getting quite tired of repeating myself and little more can come of such
> posts. There will simply have to be those who "agree to disagree" and
> adhere to the policy regardless. That being said.....
>
> The very fact that you have made the assumption that translations will
> "inevitably" either be wrong or awkward is quite telling. I myself speak
> more than one language and have no trouble being equally eloquent in
either
> one. Translators, especially those kind enough to step forward and
> volunteer, have no cause to "inevitably" mangle what they are given. I
> would note, again with curiosity, that you are yet another person who
> "objects" to the policy, does indeed speak more than one language, and yet
> have not seen fit to offer your assistance.

Because my French is only so-so, and I am, as far as I know, the �only�
active citizen here in Nova Roma who has Dutch as his first language.
Besides, most people who speak Dutch know English to a large extent anyway,
so the problem isn't manifesting itself in my own country (if there is even
a "problem").

> To say that those who are offered help are being "patronized" amounts to
> little more, in my mind, than the irresponsible use of rhetoric and
> inflammatory language that we see so often from some here.

Not the first time you accuse me of this, but nowhere have I tried to do so.
It proves that I didn't get my point across as well as I'd like to, proving
my points made earlier in the original "Slippery Paths" posting. I know, I
shouldn't talk, but getting less irritated would increase the productivity
of this discussion. I tried to analyze the language situation honestly, not
taking sides particulary, yet without replying to my analysis, you decide to
pointlessly accuse me.

> Please consider
> that, as is the case here, a policy is set to help folks, with good
> intentions and, quite frankly, good results. You don't have to like it
> personally, but since you are unwilling to be of help as a translator and
it
> IS working for those who need it, I would suggest you either become part
of
> the solution or cease attempting to create problems and seeing..

�Your� solution. Not �the� solution.

> ..."patronization" where absolutely none exists. The only "slippery path"
here
> is one lined in baseless accusations.

I accused no one of anything in my posting, as far as I can tell, or at
least I didn't intend to. A different opinion is not an accusation.

> I will say again, and for the last time, you are free to disagree with the
> policy. The policy however, is fair, equitable and....most
importantly...is
> working wonderfully for those who have a need for it. I would call upon
> you, therefore, to drop the buzzwords such as "patronization", as there is
> no basis in fact for such absurd claims.

I merely pointed out that it would feel like being patronized, as if needing
help to walk, and some people may not appreciate this. Some people will also
like the assistance, I'm sure of that. But I use the right to freely
disagree with you here, indeed. I suppose I agree to disagree then, though I
regret the unproductiveness of this discussion, in which you are portraying
yourself needlessly as a victim of rhetorics.

Vale bene!
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Scriba Aedilis Plebis,
Lupercus Fabianus
Coryphaeus Sodalitatis Musarum,
Musaeus Collegii Eratus,
Musaeus Collegii Uraniae
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
--**--
Novaromain? Parlez-vous fran�ais? Cliquez ici!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_GalliaBelgicaF
Nieuwromein? Spreekt u Nederlands? Klik hier!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_BelgicaBataviaD
Novaroman? Interested in philosophy? Click here!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_Philosophy
Novaroman? Interested in politics? Click here!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_DignitasForum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Language, is it an issue? - The Facts
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:39:12 +0100

Salve Censor Sulla,

Thank you for this interesting information! I used this information to
compose a list of native languages spoken in NR. In some countries there are
multiple languages, so when there were like two languages, I divided the
number in two for common use, or took in account the approximate procentual
division (as in Canada, for example, or Belgium, where I live). Here are my
�approximate� results of the native tongues spoken by New Romans:

1. English: 643
2. Italian: 76
3. Portuguese: 49
4. German: 30
5. Spanish: 26
6. French: 22
7. Dutch: 11
8. Serbo-Croatian (is this one language?): 8
9. Slovakian: 7
10. Swedish: 6
11. Turkish: 5
12. Suomi: 4
Arab: 4
13. Danish: 3
14. Polish: 2
Czech: 2
Hungarian: 2
Russian: 2
Bulgarian: 2
15. Greek: 1
Japanese: 1
Kazak: 1
Korean: 1
Norwegian: 1
Rumanian: 1
Afrikaans: 1

This immediately shows the large amount of citizens we have, much more than
the 700 that was proudly announced a month ago, and the expected dominance
of English. However, other languages also have reasonable percentages, and
shouldn't be ignored. More about this in another posting though.

Valete,
Sextus Apollonius Draco


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Tour 2002
From:	BICURRATUS@--------
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:13:09 EST

EX DOMO PUBLII CLAUDII LUCENTII SEVERI BICURRATI

> Our guide for the tour in Europe will be the leading Roman Historian,
> Peter Connolly. He is extremely keen on conducting this part of the
> tour. His tour schedule would include visits to the Roman museums at St.
> Germain, Alesia, Hezvetii Battlefield, Saalburg Fort & Museum,
> Teutoburger Forest, Ariovistus Battlefield, plus various other museums
>

If this is THE Peter Connolly then jump at the chance of having him as your
guide. His 'children's' books on Roman history, particularly the two on
Tiberius Claudius Maximus, are a must for anyone.

Bicurratus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Language, is it an issue? - The Facts
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:29:35 -0600

Salvete Censor Sulla et omnes!

Whether or not portions of the audience taking the language
debate to new levels of absurdity ever glean anything meaningful
from the cold hard numbers below, the results alone present
a very valuable piece of research. The demographic data alone
I should think will prove beneficial in the long term; especially
for discussions pertinent to provincial borders and the like.

It makes me wonder what other types of useful data could
be mined via the NR citizenship database.

Gratias multas for posting it!

Bene vale,
-Oppius

-----Original Message-----
From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla [mailto:alexious@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 5:30 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Language, is it an issue? - The Facts

With all this debate on language, and since I being Censor, I took it
upon myself to ask Senator M. Octavius to prepare for me a database
listing all of the countries where all of our citizens listed on their
applications for citizenship.

Listed below are the results I have found after about 2 hours of
interpreting the data:

United States - 508
Italy - 75
Canada - 59
Great Britain - 53
Brazil - 37
Australia - 31
Germany - 20
Portugal - 12
Spain - 11
Belgium - 9
France - 9
Argentina - 8
Slovak Republic - 7
Switzerland - 7
Austria - 6
Nigeria - 6
Sweden - 6
Yugoslavia - 6
Netherlands - 5
Turkey - 5
Finland - 4
Denmark - 3
Mexico - 3
New Zealand - 3
Poland - 3
Croatia - 2
Czech Republic - 2
Hungary - 2
Israel - 2
Russia - 2
Bulgaria - 1
Columbia - 1
Costa Rica - 1
Greece - 1
Ireland - 1
Japan - 1
Jordan - 1
Kazakhstan - 1
Korea - 1
Norway - 1
Philippines - 1
Romania - 1
Singapore - 1
South Africa - 1
Uruguay - 1
Morocco - 1

I hope many will find this data useful. I know I sure did as I have
spent hours analyzing it.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On The Laws Of Magick
From:	"J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@-------->
Date:	Wed, 07 Feb 2001 14:53:49 -0500

>Nick Ford wrote:
Salve!

> I think it is important to point out here that to think or intend something in
> power
> only makes that thing so in the realms in which it is possible for it to be
> so. >snip<Astrally, that semolina wafer may be the Body and Blood of Christ;
> in terms of the sensory world, it's a semolina wafer.

Yet, having been named as the Body and Blood, does this not ritually Make It So?
I'm sure that Catholics don't perceive taking communion as simply munching a
semolina wafer. In Communion (as I understand it, not being Catholic...or even
Christian...) that wafer IS the Body and Blood. No matter what it tastes like.
And by taking that wafer, isn't the communicant is linked to Jesus (dwelling in
the divine plane of existence and at the right hand of God) directly?

>Similarly, a communion wafer over which the Mass has been recited without
mental intention that it be transformed, or host the body of Christ, remains
only a semolina wafer

Ahhh...but when the mental intention *is* there, that wafer is no longer just a
simple semolina wafer...

> >So if one drew a picture of a sheep on a piece of paper and
> >then said "This is my sheep which I shall sacrifice to the gods!" and then
> >that person slit the "sheep's" throat with a dagger after first knocking it
> >ceremonially on the head with a double=peened ("pulley") stone hammer, (or
> >in the Modern Imperium, a ball peen hammer would do!) that should count.
>
> Well, this is no more true than to say that a picture of a god IS the god.

One sees images of a god in the act of sacrificing a bull (the Weser bones, for
instance) (an anti-Roman-ship spell on three bones, crafted by a priest/mage of
the Ingvaeones; the bones had been found in dredge material from the Weser
River) as an activation element in the spell. In "primitive" cultures, one does
find pictographic animal sacrifice (used in ritual or for ritually-ensured hunt
success, etc.). Look also at the use of small votive clay (lead, bronze)
animals offered to the god(s) by throwing them in wells, placing them in cult
niches, etc. etc. The symbolic sacrifice is a long-standing custom/tradition in
many religions.

> In a sense, it can be argued that it is, in that it MAY in certain cases be
> more than merely symbolic or representational, but it must be remembered that
> the picture is in no way the all and everything of the god.

True. If a god could be totally depicted by humans on a 2-D or 3-D surface,
that would be a first. But humans certainly have made and used *symbolic* ikons
which would link them to their deity/ies. Christians pray to the Cross, for
instance. Some also to figurines of saints, etc. The baetylos (as an aniconic
representation or link to JHWH) was found in ancient Jewish archaeological
sites. And in ancient Rome, there were cult places with god- or goddess-
depictions to which one made sacrifice. In some cases, these sacrifices may be
small models of an animal, or bronze or lead cutouts thereof. In some cases,
these may be damaged, possibly in period.

> If this were not so, one could draw a picture of a poleaxed sheep with its
> throat
> already cut, in your hypothetical magickal

um, I prefer not to use the Crowleyan "magick", sorry; that has 19th
century-and-later connotations.

> ritual sacrifice, which would be a considerably labour-saving convenience.

It could also permit poor folks to make a ritual sacrifice...or folks in peril
on the sea after all live sacrificial animals had already been sacrificed...
And yes, I realize that such "stand-in" sacrifice was not necessarily the
general practice, but in today's world, the cops would get pretty unhappy if
someone slaughtered a bull to Mithras or to Apollo in their backyard temple....
If one wants to perform a ritual "sacrifice", using the image *with intent*,
that should certainly count for something, magically speaking.

> Or one might choose to compromise, by felling the picture of the sheep with a
> picture of a poleaxe, then cutting its pictorial throat with a picture of a
> knife.

True, one could go to ridiculous sequences, but here, I doubt that in this case
the sacrifice would be carried out with intent. Folks generally had access to
(even miniature) sacrificial weapons, if not their house tableware! Or a rock
and then a dagger.

Note that in historical thaumaturgy, the image of the item (such as a sharp
knife made of silver...and silver, being easily malformed, wouldn't do to
actually *cut* something) may be used in place of a real (here, a sharp
iron/steel knife) to cut or pierce things (including non-material magical
"bindings") in ceremonial use. Using a sharp replica knife = a sharp real
knife. The image as the actual item.

> For myself, I can't help but feel that this is turning religio and the pax
> deorum into a kind of
> Pollock's Toy Theatre.

No, actually, this can be documented via archaeological evidence.

> Where is the value of such a two-dimensional sacrifice?

On, say, a defixio, for example.... there's a really good book on defixiones Out
There; has quite a bit of Roman info. I think the title is something like
"Curse Tablets"; it's written by a fella named Gager, who's done a great deal of
research. I have a copy of the book, but don't have it handy to give you the
complete citation. And yes, on those rolled-up or folded lead strips, one can
find pictured sacrifice (or pins inserted into a humanoid form identified, say,
as a certain charioteer for the Greens). No, 2-dimensional sacrifice or similar
ritual action was very much a part of early (and including Imperial Roman)
spellcraft.

> >> I know that the Romans were somewhat obsessive about ensuring that
> traditional rituals were followed exactly, and that they believed the
> slightest deviation would invalidate the prayer/ritual/etc.

In the "orthodox" temples, yes...the Vestals had to toe the line, for instance.
But out there in folk usage, away from the eyes of the Official Priests....that
was another situation. Some Romans *were* very orthodox. But there were
others...as in modern society...who were much more flexible in their religious
practice, especially if something made perfectly good thaumaturgical sense.

> Nota bene: this belief is sincerely held by some citizens of our respublica no
> less

As in any religion, there are degrees of rules, and degrees of adherence to
rules.

> (not me, but there are limits to what I think the gods can be persuaded to
> accept - and, in my own, admittedly subjective, experience, the nature of the
> sacrifice is negotiable with some gods, but not with others).

And with the gods, some are more insistent on rules being followed (or their
priests are more insistent on rules being followed). It may be that one aspect
of Jupiter is a rule maven. Other aspects might be more flexible....

> >True...but if one did follow the Laws of Magic, one could get by. Similar
> >artifices were used in defixiones at the time.
>
> I personally don't do religion to "get by".

I meant "get by" in the sense of "the worshipper's intent, applied to a
specifically-named or depicted object or ikon, accompanied by some ritual (which
may include action element(s)), being acceptable to the god(s) and/or
goddess(es) in lieu of the actual killing of an actual beast/bird". That the
deity/ies would accept the stand-in as an actual sacrifice...or as a pledge of a
future sacrifice, or as a part-value sacrifice.

Things change in religions. In Old Testament days, folks made burnt offerings
to God/JHWH. I don't see that in modern practice... heck, today the deacons
pass the plate, and the sacrifice (offeratory) is money (not a critter). Here,
the paper and metal are sacrificed to the church/temple to enable it to continue
to exist. In the old days, the priests may have sold sacrificial animals on the
side, and asked a fee to perform a sacrifice.

> Besides, I have studied dozens of defixiones, and none that I have encountered
> attempt to substitute the description of the thing offered for the thing
> itself,

what about the pinned images of folks? Some defixiones show pictures of these.
One isn't pinning the actual victim, one does it to the pictorial simulacrum.

> but are rather a communication of intent, on the lines of: "Lady Sulis
> Minerva, I give to you
> my ring which someone stole from the apodyterium at the baths when I was
> bathing; may that person, be they male or female, slave or free, know neither
> peace, health nor prosperity until they offer you that ring in one of your
> sactuaries."
>

Yes, more than a few defixiones are like this. But others do have the image of
a ritual action. Look at Gager's book, if you have access to it...

> Besides, magickal practice is not religious practice.

Um, some cultures might beg to differ with that. In some religions, magic *is*
definitely a part of things, and the laws of spellcraft can be seen in both
magic and in religious practices worldwide. The laws of similarity, relevance,
contagion, identity (this is primarily the one we've been discussing),
transference, etc. In modern society, Christians tend to disavow any connection
between religion and magic, especially in their own. Although one does find
Christian magic...visit any botanica for plentiful examples) as well as Roman
magic. The line blurs between magic and religion...

> Magick and religion co-exist in parallel in any culture,

True.

> and although it is almost impossible for me to define the two as absolutely
> separate kinds of practice, it seems to me that magick is generally about
> enforcing one's will,

In spellcraft, it is not necessarily the enforcement of one's will; one also
makes requests of the Powers and/or gods/goddesses. Yes, some spells do put
caster's will as an enacting force. But not all.

> whereas religion is about making requests.

Some aspects of religion may include the enforcement of the individual
worshipper's will, such as a given religious practice carried out in order to
ensure a given result which would be advantageous to the practitioner. One sees
announcements in the paper stating that the practitioner has performed a given
ritual (say, a Novena 9 days running, and then published the announcement in the
paper) in order to gain a specified goal/action/result.

> One is dubious, the other, wholesome.

Actually, either could be dubious or either be wholesome, as well....

> Anyway... I wonder how I would feel if I were a god, and someone tried to
> offer me a symbol of a sacrifice as if it were the thing itself?

But if that symbol were named as the actual thing, mightn't it translate on the
divine plane of existence to the thing itself? Especially if that was the best
the sacrificer could do? Oh, I could see the god getting huffy if this
sacrificer were a rich miser who thought he could get out of the price of a nice
fatted calf or bull or whatever. But the god(s), wouldn't they want to preserve
their adherents from harm? And if that meant an alternate mode of sacrifice,
mightn't that be acceptable to some degree or other?

> Much as I would feel, I think, as if I were hungry and was offered a
> photograph of a bacon sandwich (I like bacon sandwiches, but am indifferent to
> pictorial representations of them); and I would not feel enriched if anyone
> bestowed on me a piece of paper on which were written the words: "One Hundred
> Thousand Pounds" (at best it would probably be a rubber cheque, right?).

hehehe... but you as a mortal human being exist on the physical plane inhabited
by mortals. The divine plane is something else entirely. Lots of non-material
things there.

> This is a big, contentious subject; perhaps we could develop it on the
> ReligioRomana list?

I'll hafta go sign up there. But as it is, I get so much incoming, that I
wonder if I can handle another list. Oh, well.... you're right; let's take this
to ReligioRomana. I guess this list is more for politics?

> Pace deorum,

Et tibicum!
Vale,
S. Ambrosia Fulvia


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] On The Laws Of Magick
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:57:40 -0500

Salvete;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: J. T. Sibley [mailto:jrsibley@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 14:54
>
> On, say, a defixio, for example.... there's a really good book on
defixiones Out
> There; has quite a bit of Roman info. I think the title is something like
> "Curse Tablets"; it's written by a fella named Gager, who's done a great
deal of
> research. I have a copy of the book, but don't have it handy to give you
the
> complete citation.

"Curse Tablets and Binding Spells from the Ancient World" by John G. Gager
(Editor). Amazon.com has it listed for $18.95. If anyone is planning on
buying it, why not help out the ol' treasury while you're at it? Just click
on: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195134826/novaroma00A and a
portion of the sale price goes to Nova Roma.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

"For Gracchus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
bad one." (Crassus in the film "Spartacus")

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:11:38 -0800 (PST)

Salve!

--- Michel Loos <loos@--------> wrote:
> Something that begins to frighten me is that it
> seems to me (I could be
> mistaken) that the defended of the actual
> "unwelcomness" of non-english
> posts is solely defended by US macronationals and
> perhaps other english
> mother-tongue citizens. Doesn t this mean something?

Yes, it does. It means we're about 90% of the
population of NovaRoma (no, I didn't count, but just
roughed it out).

BTW, I made this statement to Draco off-line, and I'll
say it now on the list: I don't have a position on
this issue. I am on English-only lists, mixed
language lists, and one that is almost completely
German. Although I don't have an issue, I dislike the
bandying about of terms like fascist for someone
trying to do her job as a magistrate of NovaRoma. If
you have a problem with the issue, attack the issue,
don't attack its author.

L Aetius Dalmaticus

=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"The cemeteries are full of indispensible men." --Charles de Gaulle

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Language, is it an issue? - The Facts
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:27:09 -0600 (CST)

Salve,

> This immediately shows the large amount of citizens we have, much more than
> the 700 that was proudly announced a month ago,

The list I provided to Sulla was for the entire contents of the
citizens database table -- including unvalidated prospective and ex-citizens
who have left, and have been suppressed from display in the Album
Civium, but not entirely purged from the database.

Vale, O.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator


Subject:	[novaroma] Regards from Ushuaia
From:	octavianuslucius@--------
Date:	Wed, 07 Feb 2001 21:33:37 -0000

Salvete omnes.
Today is the first time I connect to the Internet since I begun my
trip. And I wish to send my regards to all my friends of Nova Roma,
and also wish to extend it to all NR citizens. I am writing from the
city of Ushuaia, the southernmost city of Argentina, and up to now,
the southernmost city of the world, too.
I am having a very pleasant trip and the ship is really beautiful.
I shall read the posts once I am back in Bs.As. on Feb. 12th. I shall
not connect to the Internet until then.
So I wish you all : Valete bene et habete fortunam bonam

Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Propraetor provinciae Argentinae


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Regards from Ushuaia
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Ignacio=20Nachimowicz?= <eleuteria56@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:54:43 -0600 (CST)

--- octavianuslucius@-------- escribi�: > Salvete
omnes.
> Today is the first time I connect to the Internet
> since I begun my
> trip. And I wish to send my regards to all my
> friends of Nova Roma,
> and also wish to extend it to all NR citizens. I am
> writing from the
> city of Ushuaia, the southernmost city of Argentina,
> and up to now,
> the southernmost city of the world, too.
> I am having a very pleasant trip and the ship is
> really beautiful.
> I shall read the posts once I am back in Bs.As. on
> Feb. 12th. I shall
> not connect to the Internet until then.
> So I wish you all : Valete bene et habete fortunam
> bonam
>
> Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
> Propraetor provinciae Argentinae
>
> �Porqu� no en castellanos?
Ignacio

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Freedom of Linguistic Expression
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:05:31 +0100

Salvete F. Vedi et omnes Quiritibus!

Scripsit Vedius (in respect to a previous post of mine):

As a public service, I would like to summarize this rather lengthy
post for those whose patience for this sort of thing is wearing thin:

"Can't we just do things my way?"

And to similarly summarize the inevitable response it will generate:

"No."

There. All the salient points are, I believe, pretty much covered.
Now hopefully we can move on to more productive topics.

RESPONDEO:
As a public service, I would like to summarize the viewpoint of Vedia
and Vedius for those whose patience for this sort of thing is wearing
thin:

"Can't we just do things my way?"

And to similarly summarize the inevitable response it has generated:

"No."

There. All the salient points are, I believe, pretty much covered.
Now on to a campaign as long as necessary to get linguistic freedom
of expression on the Main List.

Valete!

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, Aedilis Plebeius Novae Romae
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius;
Musaeus Collegii Polyhymniae Sodalitatis Musarum � �
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________


Subject:	[novaroma] English Only
From:	"Caius Fabius" <SPQR_HQ@-------->
Date:	Wed, 07 Feb 2001 23:27:24 -0000

revered fathers and motehrs and blah, blah, blah...

What a pile of poop!

Most of the people who post here cannot write in proper English. The
sentence structures, mispeling, poorly grammered contexts and such not, are
so confusing that it behooves us to reconsider any exclusive language rules.
Whose gonna' chek out each post ta' see if it even cums cloz to proppa
English? Youse guys are getting way outta line trying to make rules that
exclude NE BodE! R U gonna say only USA eastern english counts, or what
'bout down under slang? NE way, I jus be sayn dat dis be soooo silli that
mayB some1 kan pull they head out and C that communikating is Kool, Being a
total "rules Nazi" will KNOT B helpFool to NOVA ROMA.

SSay wat? Dis IS English. I C it Evry DAY!

C Fabius Varus

You do not want me to spell check and grammer check, and syntax check each
posting and then post public grade cards for your ability to communicate in
"English"
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