Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On The Laws Of Magick
From:	Piparskegg UllRsson <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Wed, 07 Feb 2001 18:50:29 -0600

Avete,

The term for the magical changing of bread and wine to Body and Blood is: Transubstantiation.

وووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووو
In amicitia - Venii

Homines est! Dici omnes! Soylens viridis HOMINES EST!

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] English Only
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 20:09:29 EST

In a message dated 2/7/2001 3:34:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
SPQR_HQ@-------- writes:
<< SSay wat? Dis IS English. I C it Evry DAY!<<
I believe what C. Fabius Varus is referring to is Eubonics, which is a slang
dialect of English. However, I believe that once again we are into the
concept that the needs of the few out weighs the needs of the many. As a
patrician I must say I'm all for that. <humor>
The point is the predominance language here in our Forum is English, some of
it being as fractured as Fabius points out, but still reasonably
understandable.
Usually one posts on main list because it is our Forum, where we citizens
communicate generally with one another. I think this is the key world,
communicate. Now if the Phoenician rug merchants in the corner speaking in
Punic want to have a conversation heard by all by all means go ahead. I
don't see the problem with that. But if the those same merchants wish to
sell the average Roman a rug, he will have to speak to him in English. Maybe
one day we will all be speaking Latin, but right now it is English.
And I have to ask...why is the Aedile repeating the Consul's speech? Surely
he must have better things to do.
Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Thu, 08 Feb 2001 00:26:24 -0200

Jeff Smith wrote:
>
> Salve!
>
> --- Michel Loos <loos@--------> wrote:
> > Something that begins to frighten me is that it
> > seems to me (I could be
> > mistaken) that the defended of the actual
> > "unwelcomness" of non-english
> > posts is solely defended by US macronationals and
> > perhaps other english
> > mother-tongue citizens. Doesn t this mean something?
>
> Yes, it does. It means we're about 90% of the
> population of NovaRoma (no, I didn't count, but just
> roughed it out).
>
> BTW, I made this statement to Draco off-line, and I'll
> say it now on the list: I don't have a position on
> this issue. I am on English-only lists, mixed
> language lists, and one that is almost completely
> German. Although I don't have an issue, I dislike the
> bandying about of terms like fascist for someone
> trying to do her job as a magistrate of NovaRoma. If
> you have a problem with the issue, attack the issue,
> don't attack its author.

1) I never called her fascist. I said she used fascist methods. Which is
the issue.
2) If I did I would mean it in the political sense.

Fascist is not an insult it is a political position, which I don t
share.
Communist is not an insult it is a poltical position which I share.
Taleban is not an insult it is a religious and political position which
I don t share.

Now if you feel that every political position you don t share, or feel
you don t share is perceived as an offense in english, it would really
be better to speak a language from a multi-party country.

Back to the issue and developping:
We have a totally fine law protecting privacy which prohibits
communication of e-mail addresses. (seems fine for me)
Those e-mails addreses can only be communicated to the pro-praetor of
the provinces.
We now have a rule which prohibits non-english _speaking_ citizens to
freely communicate on the main-list.
How the hell are you expecting 2 non-english speking citizens to contact
each other ?
Passing through superior authority ? (Propraetor, Curatrix). At best it
is "Democratic Centralism" (communist way of communicatin between the
cells) at worst Military/Fascist communication and yes for me they are
the same.
That is a problem.

Now what is the cost of free communication on the main list ?
an increase of maximum 0.5% in list traffic, due to the translations
those posts will induce.

This increase in list traffic is much smaller as this outgoing debate.
Is it worth it ?
Now our consul expressed his position: the idea comes from an political
opponent, consequently it is bad and will not be done.
Is this really politics in the best interest of NovaRoma ?

I really didn t see ANY argument explaining why this is GOOD for
NovaRoma, I saw some arguments of our Curatrix explaining why she feels
it is not SO bad. I don t agree but understand.
But why is the "unwelcomness" of non-english posts GOOD ? the 0.5 % post
avoided posts ?
Is it enough for us to have rules that are not too bad ?
Why setting rules that are just not too bad ?
Is n t it easier to let the list free ?
The gain is (or is feeled) huge for some, the loss is tiny for others
(the 0.5%).
When we reach this point in discussion and have answers like that of our
consul, we can only deduct that for him this has become a problem beyond
reason or common sense, just a problem of showing power. Showing power
instead of proving your point is a fascistic attitude.

Michel.



>
> L Aetius Dalmaticus
>
> =====
> LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
> HQ USAREUR/7A
> CMR 420, BOX 2839
> APO AE 09063-2839
>
> "The cemeteries are full of indispensible men." --Charles de Gaulle
>
> __________________________________________________
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>

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:49:15 -0500

Salve;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: loos [mailto:loos]On Behalf Of Michel Loos
> Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 9:26 PM
>
> Now our consul expressed his position: the idea comes from an political
> opponent, consequently it is bad and will not be done.

Huh? I never said, or implied, such things. My reasons for holding my
position have been stated before, and I will not repeat myself; the archives
are there for all to see.

You, sir, are a filthy liar and a troublemaker.

Of course, "filthy liar" is not an insult; is is merely a description of
one's perceived lack of veracity. Much like "fascist-like" isn't an insult.

Of course, "troublemaker" is not an insult; it is merely a description of
one's intention to speak not to promote a legitimate position, but merely to
see the discord and count how many opposing emails you can elicit. Much like
"taliban" isn't an insult.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

"For Gracchus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
bad one." (Crassus, in the film "Spartacus")

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	[novaroma] Greek
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:56:37 -0800 (PST)

Salvete,

When Roma was a small town on the Tiber, the Greeks
were busy founding cities from the Pillars of Hercules
to the Black Sea. The Empire of Alexander didn't last
long, but the states that came into being when it
broke up continued the spread of Greek civilization
and the Greek language. When Roma became a great
power, she found herself in a world dominated by the
Greek language. The Romans were a very pragmatic
people, they didn't seek to impose their Latin
language on the areas they conquered, they learned to
speak Greek.

In Ancient times Greek was the international language.
Everyone who wanted to take part in a culture greater
than that of their city learned Greek as a second
language. Most Greeks, however refused to bother
learning a second language and looked down on those
who failed to learn their tongue. The Word "Barbarian"
originally meant someone who didn't know Greek, who
barked like a dog (Bar Bar). Barbarian later acquired
the meaning of "Uncivilized" because anyone who didn't
speak Greek was considered to be uncivilized.

Nova Roma finds herself in the same position as
Ancient Roma as far as language goes. We have come
upon a world that the language of an earlier power has
become the dominant international tongue. English has
the same status today that Greek had for the Ancient
Romans. Unfortuntally many of us who speak English as
their native tongue have an attitude similar to that
of the ancient Greeks. We all ready speak the
international language, why bother learning a
"barbarian" tongue?

Which brings me to the Nova Roma mail list. In a
normal mailing list or newsgroup it's considered a
violation of the rules of "nettiquite" to post to the
group in a language other than the language of the
group. It's considered allmost as bad as spamming the
list. It's looked on as very bad manners. However this
is NOT a normal mailing list. This is the place Nova
Romans receive their official news of upcoming events.
A Citizen may know enough English to get a feeling of
whats going on, but lack the skills to phrase a
question in English to get the information they need.
I see no problem in allowing these citizens to post a
reply asking for help in their native language. These
kinds of posts should be fairly infrequent. The only
time I would see a reason for moderation would be if
it developed into a conversation between two or three
citizens, addressed to each other, rather than the
group as a whole. Then it would be time for them to be
encouraged to take their private conversation to
regular e-mail instead of posting to the group (as
should be done with English threads that turn into a
private conversation).

Valete,
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:57:55 -0500

Salve,
>> 1) I never called her fascist. I said she used fascist methods. Which
is
the issue. >>

This may very well be your opinion (baseless as it is) but is far from
true.

>> Fascist is not an insult it is a political position, which I don t
share. Communist is not an insult it is a poltical position which I share.
Taleban is not an insult it is a religious and political position which
I don t share. Now if you feel that every political position you don t
share, or feel you don t share is perceived as an offense in english, it
would really
be better to speak a language from a multi-party country. >>

We all know why you chose the terms you did, and for you to try and
back-pedal now and claim they were not meant to be offensive is simply
cowardly. I, as a woman, take great offense at the reference to the Taliban
in particular. If you know anything about the organization you will need no
further explanation.

>> We now have a rule which prohibits non-english _speaking_ citizens to
freely communicate on the main-list. >>

Ah, here is the crux of your argument. Allow me to correct you. Posts
from non-English speakers are MORE than welcome here. Heck, posts in MORE
than one language are MORE than welcome here. As a global community I take
great pleasure in fostering input from as many individuals as we can. That
*only* requirement is that a translation of posts into English be provided
so that the vast majority will be able to understand, communicate with and
welcome the non-English speaker. This is fascism?

>> How the hell are you expecting 2 non-english speking citizens to
contact
each other ? Passing through superior authority ? (Propraetor, Curatrix).
At best it
is "Democratic Centralism" (communist way of communicatin between the
cells) at worst Military/Fascist communication and yes for me they are the
same. That is a problem. >>

This brings up another of your pet fears.......censorship. I have stated
publicly, and will do so here again, that translations are just that:
translations. "Yo soy una chica" will be rendered as "I am a girl" on this
list. Nothing added, nothing changed, and no "secretive approval by a
superior authority" is in the works here. Posts by non-English speakers are
subject to NO censorship. In reality, if I *were* the power-mad tyrant you
( and a few others)would have some believe, it would be an easy enough thing
to moderate the entire list, requiring ALL posts pass through me before
appearing. That is the farthest thing from what I swore an oath to do. To
continue to assert that translations are somehow subject to some scrutiny or
extra requirements is untrue.

>> Now our consul expressed his position: the idea comes from an
political
opponent, consequently it is bad and will not be done. Is this really
politics in the best interest of NovaRoma ? >>

Let me present some facts for you, as well as one or two others whose
comments lead me to believe this is necessary. The Consul does not make
list policy. The Consul is not the duly elected magistrate in charge of
running this list. He is my husband, true. He is opinionated, true. But
make no mistake. I, as Curatrix Sermonem, am responsible for this list and
the smooth running thereof. You are free to think what you will of my
husband's politics, but do not make the mistake of confusing us as being of
one mind on all issues.

>> I really didn t see ANY argument explaining why this is GOOD for
NovaRoma, I saw some arguments of our Curatrix explaining why she feels it
is not SO bad. >>

This is simply untrue. I have stated repeatedly why I feel this policy is
best for this list. Let me do so again: like many issues in life, there are
several sides.

A) All English, no exceptions. I did not go this route because it WOULD
be exclusionary and unfair to non-English speakers. There is no need or
call to prohibit or exclude all except those who can write in English.

B) All languages, no limits, no format: I did not go this route because
it leads to unnecessary confusion. Going this route leads to a poster
sending a message with NO guarantee that anyone will take it upon themselves
to translate, with no guarantees that IF someone does translate that they
will do so accurately, and with potentially no way for the original poster
to comprehend the responses his or her post gets once(if) it has been
translated. This policy would lead to some extra posts, but that is not the
primary reason for my not going this way. The chaos and uncertainty is the
primary factor against this "free-for-all"/"Tower of Babel" approach.

C) All languages welcome, as long as English translation is provided.
This choice allows all posters to post. NO ONE is banned or punished for
not being able to write in English. There is no penalty for posting in
non-English the first time out. In the rare instances where an individual
subscribes to the list but either cannot or will not post in English,
translators have volunteered to help them to post. These posts will not
necessarily excise the original language. As has been seen here by Senator
Vado, for example, who posts edicts in both Latin and English, dual language
posts are MORE than welcome. This choice also guarantees that the poster
has someone to work with in ensuring their ideas get through and that any
replies they may need translated back into their native tongue will also be
taken care of. There is no harm done in this policy. No one's freedoms are
being taken away and no one is being censored. In point of fact, this
choice may very well encourage those who are insecure in their
English-writing skills to seek out a partner to help them jump in and
participate more. This compromise actually benefits the poster, the
translators and the nation as a whole as more members may choose to step in
and participate.

>> I don t agree but understand. >>

I don't believe you do understand, given your misconceptions above.
Hopefully now you will have a clearer view of things however.

>> But why is the "unwelcomness" of non-english posts GOOD ? >>

Here it is again: ALL languages are welcome here, provided a translation
into English is provided. That is a good thing. It is good for the poster
a) his/her point is understood and is able to be replied to and b)he/she is
still able to show national pride by using their own native language if they
desire/need. Who is being harmed here?

>> Is it enough for us to have rules that are not too bad ? Why setting
rules that are just not too bad ? >>

Whether you agree with it or not, this policy is intended to be of benefit
to the members of this list. If you truly believe I have time enough on my
hands to dream up rules with no basis and for no reason, I would invite you
to spend a day in my life. I act as I see is best for the list as a whole.
Believe me when I say that I read every post every day and that every
opinion IS taken into account. Just because I do not change policy to
accommodate every opinion does not mean you haven't been heard.

>> Is n t it easier to let the list free ? >>

No, in point of fact it would not be easier to have a list without rules.
All that is being done with this policy is that posts will be presented in a
way so that the maximum number of members can understand it. For some, that
might very well be in the "native" tongue, for others it will be in the
English translation. That freedom, freedom to speak and be understood, is
the purpose of this list.

>> this has become a problem beyond reason or common sense, just a
problem of showing power. Showing power instead of proving your point is a
fascistic attitude. >

This is far from a power play on my part. Let's be honest....if this were
merely a bid for me to flex my muscles I would not be tolerating the kind of
name-calling I have been subject to by you. If this were about "power" I
have the "power" to end this entire discussion. I will not do so. Because,
you see, this is not about ego for me. This is not about making rules for
no good reason. This is not about me making an effort to see how many
non-English speakers I can offend oppress and alienate. This is, whether
you choose to believe it or not, a policy I have thought long and hard on
and genuinely feel is in the best interest of the list as a whole. Does
that mean some might disagree? Maybe so, and that is fine. Does this mean
it will make every person happy? No, probably not, but that is the way of
the world. In a perfect world, perhaps, we would all be 100% content with
100% of the rules. In this world, however, I need to do what I feel is
right for the list as a whole.

The very fact that this policy does not hurt anyone, welcomes all
languages and, in fact, might serve to encourage some to post now that they
see assistance is available, seems to be totally overlooked by
some....yourself included....who seem driven to prove that this is yet
another "power-mad-magistrate-out-to-oppress-the-little guy." I am not such
a magistrate. I am merely a dedicated Curatrix doing as I feel is best for
reasons which have already been explained.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonem

Michel.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] Another editorial comment
From:	Piparskegg UllRsson <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Wed, 07 Feb 2001 23:39:06 -0600

Avete Omnes,

If, I may?

In part, I joined the Nova Roman micronation to get away from such failed modern political
constructs as "Western" Democracy and Communism.
I for one, would appreciate if Cives would keep their modern political thoughts out of Nova Roman
polity, discussion and policy.

As far as a language to be used on the list; I do favor my cradle tongue of American English and I
do have some facility with the Queen's English. Even though I was born in the USA, I attempt to use
proper English vocabulary and construction.

My skills in grammar, logic and rhetoric may not be sufficient to gain the attention and approbation
of those better educated than I, but I get by quite well, I think.

As to non-English facility; I am the product of an immigrant family. We were raised that to be
fully "American," we would need to speak only Standard American English, and that to try and learn
the language of the "Old Country" was ignorant and anti-American. This is part and parcel of a
large part of the "American" mindset. Like it or not, we are the product of our upbringing much
more than the decisions we take about philosophies, ideologies or dogmas.

I think we are to be Romans and Republicans here, so be it.

If one was truly satisfied with "modern" ideas, would one then, be here?

وووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووووو
In amicitia - Venii

Homines est! Dici omnes! Soylens viridis HOMINES EST!

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:41:01 -0800 (PST)

--- Michel Loos <loos@--------> wrote:

> cells) at worst Military/Fascist communication and
> yes for me they are
> the same.
> That is a problem.

Since I am now, too, a fascist (or one practicing
fascism), I have no more to say to you, and will hear
no more from you.

L Aetius Dalmaticus

=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"The cemeteries are full of indispensible men." --Charles de Gaulle

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:51:59 -0800 (PST)

Salvete,

I salute our Cur. Sermonix for facing her assailants
in this unwarranted attack on her policy.

The insulting, personal nature of the attacks against
her and others has led me to block one person's emails
from my account -- a situation of extreme desperation
for me, and I hope a temporary situation. She;
however, cannot do that due to her responsiblities.
She has earned my respect by not stooping to the level
of her attackers.

I offer her encouragement and wish her well.

L Aetius Dalmaticus

=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"The cemeteries are full of indispensible men." --Charles de Gaulle

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On The Laws Of Magick
From:	"J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@-------->
Date:	Thu, 08 Feb 2001 01:23:03 -0500

Piparskegg UllRsson wrote:

> Avete,
>
> The term for the magical changing of bread and wine to Body and Blood is: Transubstantiation.
>

Ave Piparskegg!
(er du norsk?)

Can transubstantiation, then, apply to similar "magical changing" of one item to another? It
seems logical!
jane

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:21:52 +0100

Salvete omnes Quirites!

I recently made a plea for moderation in our terminology in the
debate and attempted to induce our Curatrix Sermonis to reconsider
the unwelcoming nature of her proposed policy. I have received a
rebuff to these polite and reconciliatory approaches.

I also made a private suggestion to Consul Vedius that a consular
Study Committee on Language Policy be set up to study the whole range
of language issues including 1) language equality and freedom of
expression among cives, 2) facilitation of communication in a
multi-lingual Nova Roma, with especial consideration to enabling full
political participation to all language groups, 3) multi-lingual
recruitment and information, and 4) the long-term rôle of Latin in
our langauge policy. I proposed the Curatrix Sermonis ex officio,
myself as a professional interlinguist and representative of the
Sodalitas Latinitatis, all list-owners of non-English provincial
lists, and anyone else the Consul thought appropriate.

I thought this to be a very reasonable, constructive and unifying
proposal that would have addressed not just our current little row in
a larger context, but would have tried to lay the groundwork for a
long term solution to the language problems we inevitably have as a
world-spanning, multi-ethnic organisation. And it would have put the
hinking and planning in more hands, ultimately to be taken to the
whole people for legislation after full public debate of the
Committee's findings.

Unfortunately, Consul Vedius chose to treat it as a challenge to his
authority (or his wife's), and just tried to inimidate me rather than
consider my proposal on its merits. This attitude was noted by
another poster. Once again we have a magistrate come out with a
proposed restrictive rule that as far as I know (and I might be
wrong) was never floated for public discussion before being
promulgated. The magistrate then was reluctant to change the proposal
in response to reasonable public criticism. And then another major
magistrate closed ranks against the public doing the criticism. The
same bad old politics as we have seen before.

Whatever one thinks of the language issue, surely this way of making
a major public policy decision seriously affecting the character of
Nova Roma as a tolerant, multi-lingual and welcoming place by one
magistrate who thinks to force it down everyone's throat by digging
in her heels and hoping that the public will just forget or give up
is not the right way to make such public policy.

And again there is no problem to which this rule is a solution. To
make translaters available in a systematic way *for those who want
them* is an excellent idea, and I commend Priscilla Vedia on this
innovation. But to declare a message in all of the world's languages
other than English spoken by a civis or other list member "lingua non
grata" unless it has an English translation walking beside it to keep
an eye on the foreigner so to speak, will be perceived as
patronising, unwelcoming, and a gratuitous infringement of the
freedom of cives and other list members. The powers of the Curatrix
Sermonis do not exist to make unnecessary and arbitrary regulations
of this sort, but to prevent real abuses.

I therefore again respectfully urge the Curatrix to listen to the
problems with this that we are calling to her attention, and to
consider whether that bit about the unwelcomeness of unaccompanied
non-English postings is really so important and so desirable as to
impose it when there is no consensus among the active citizenry that
it is salubrious or needed.

Valete!

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, Aedilis Plebeius Novae Romae
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius;
Musaeus Collegii Polyhymniae Sodalitatis Musarum    
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Length of Elections
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 02:12:58 -0800 (PST)

Salve!

--- Flavius Vedius Germanicus
<germanicus@--------> wrote:

> It occurs to me that our elections and other votes
> do not have to take quite
> so long as they do currently. The original intention
> for the duration of our
> votes was to make sure that no one missed a vote
> because they didn't check
> their email on a given day. But perhaps we have
> erred too far on the side of
> caution.

One caution: a problem in the two elections in which
I have participated (one as rogator, one as candidate)
has been invalid ballots. I would hope that
sufficient time will be allowed to allow people to
react to voting errors.

Another caution: We almost held an election during a
busy travel period last Christmas. Some allowance
should be made for voting during heavy travel periods
(e.g., Christmas holidays, Memorial Day weekend, etc.)

L Aetius Dalmaticus

=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"The cemeteries are full of indispensible men." --Charles de Gaulle

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Century Points
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 02:17:01 -0800 (PST)

Salve,

I congratulate you on a thorough review of Century
points. You anticpated my suggestion of points for
recruiting, and many areas I did not consider but are
worthy of points.

Excellent work.

L Aetius Dalmaticus

=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"The cemeteries are full of indispensible men." --Charles de Gaulle

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
From:	VMoeller@--------
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 05:18:07 EST

Salvete Omnes:

I wish to express my support and endorsement of the comments from the
honorable Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus regarding the criticism leveled against
the policies of the Curatrix Sermonem. He has admirably articulated my
feelings on the subject.

I will offer no further comment upon this topic.


Valete---Secunda Cornelia Valeria

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Century Points
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 08 Feb 2001 01:53:29 -0800

Ave!

I am glad you liked them. Hopefully upon review with my colleague..and then
approval with our Noble Consuls we can promulgate this law sometime this
year.

If you or any other citizen has suggestions for things that might have
gotten left out please feel free to contact me. I would be pleased to
consider all possible suggestions.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

Jeff Smith wrote:

> Salve,
>
> I congratulate you on a thorough review of Century
> points. You anticpated my suggestion of points for
> recruiting, and many areas I did not consider but are
> worthy of points.
>
> Excellent work.
>
> L Aetius Dalmaticus
>
> =====
> LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
> HQ USAREUR/7A
> CMR 420, BOX 2839
> APO AE 09063-2839
>
> "The cemeteries are full of indispensible men." --Charles de Gaulle
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
> a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:12:24 EST

Salvete Citizens.
I trust that the consules will not mind if I climb up on the Rosta here to
address you.
Being a proconsul does have some perks, oh curse these ancient bones of mine!
What a climb.
Very well. What I would like to do is speak about our latest little hiccup
on the list.
I said earlier today, this is the forum, and I am sure if you listen around,
you will hear German, Keltic, Greek, perhaps even some Oscan. From our
eastern shores we hear the language of the Cimmerons, Skythians, Persians,
and their related dialectics. Now people I ask you? Do we care about all
this babble? No of course not. Because we are Romans we have a universal
language we all speak. Latin? I wish. No we are stuck with a Germanic
construct called English. However as English is the language of commerce in
the world today it is understood and spoken by millions of non primary
English speaking peoples. We have no Legiones on forbidden Cathy's borders
yet.
For some strange reason several people object to the Curator's rules in the
Forum. Ok that reason is not strange. It was just some people have too much
time on their hands. Instead of trying to be accommodating, which is the
Roman way, it was the way Rome built her Empire, they have decided to make
this a struggle over liberty. Liberty? What does this have to do with this
list?
Plenty. Our curator makes a sensible decision, and she gets called a tyrant
for doing it.
And what has this modern day Caesar done to deserve this label? Why she has
requested that foreign text be accompanied by a translation of same. Why I
hear the gasps of outrage! How dare she?
"I demanded my right as given in the constitution to post in a foreign (non
English) with no translation!" Why? Is this an invasion of privacy? Is
this because the posts are of a treason ness nature, and only the
conspirators need to read them? Is this because your Slovikian dialect is
just to hard to read into English? No, it is because it is not being done by
the way these people want it to be done. They want to create a controversy
where there isn't one. Now we all elected this woman to do a job. She is
attempting to do it in the best and expedient way possible. We should be
helping her, not throwing up roadblocks or sharping our gladii.
Has anybody rights really been trampled here? Are the Portugese going to
stop posting here because we ask that they translate what they are saying? I
would hope not. Are the mighty Germans going quit because we ask what "Ich
bin Berliner" means? Knowing the Germans I really doubt it.
I remind the dissenters who scream censorship, if our curator really wanted
to censor you, she would not forward your comments to this forum. They would
die in cyber space.
So I ask you Romans, show the dissenters that we support our Curator! Drown
out their cries with your own (suitably translated of course)!
Valete!
Q. Fabius Maximus

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:50:24 -0500

Salve,
>> I recently made a plea for moderation in our terminology in the debate
and attempted to induce our Curatrix Sermonis to reconsider the unwelcoming
nature of her proposed policy. I have received a rebuff to these polite and
reconciliatory approaches.>>

*I* made no answer to you at all. Consul Vedius did. I will point out,
again, that he in no way speaks for me in matters regarding this list. He
is my husband and I love him dearly, but on matters of state he is simply
another list member to me

>> Unfortunately, Consul Vedius chose to treat it as a challenge to his
authority (or his wife's), and just tried to inimidate me rather than
consider my proposal on its merits.>>

This is an outright lie. I will leave it to Consul Vedius to address
further, as it refers to an incident in private e-mail, but having seen your
original private message, I can say with certainty that your statement above
differs greatly from the truth.


>> Once again we have a magistrate come out with a
proposed restrictive rule that as far as I know (and I might be wrong) was
never floated for public discussion before being promulgated.>>

I am under no obligation to obtain your permission before acting in the
best interest of this list. When it comes to issues that effect the welfare
of this list as a whole I am honor and duty bound to act as I feel will best
accommodate the needs of the list.

>> The magistrate then was reluctant to change the proposal in response to
reasonable public criticism.>>

Your criticism may very well be reasonable. You are always free to
disagree with how this list, or this nation as seems more accurate, is run.
Just because I do not alter list policy to accommodate your preferences does
not mean you have not been heard.

>> Whatever one thinks of the language issue, surely this way of making a
major public policy decision seriously affecting the character of Nova Roma
as a tolerant, multi-lingual and welcoming place by one magistrate who
thinks to force it down everyone's throat by digging in her heels and hoping
that the public will just forget or give up
is not the right way to make such public policy.>>

Where DO you get your arrogance? How dare you assume that, simply because
you disagree with a policy, that YOU are acting in the best interest of NR
while *I* must, of course, be doing little more than digging in my heels?
You made a similarly dismissive comment in private e-mail and I appreciated
it no more in that venue. If you truly believe that my policy stems from
nothing more than "wanting things my way", I would direct you to check the
archives for the explanations for my policy. In the meantime I would
suggest you check your ego and open your mind to the possibility that just
because I do not agree with you does not equate to my acting simply as a
power play.

>> And again there is no problem to which this rule is a solution. To make
translaters available in a systematic way *for those who want them* is an
excellent idea, and I commend Priscilla Vedia on this innovation.>>

There have, indeed, been cases where just such a policy is necessary.
Rare? Yes. Nonetheless, having a policy in place to deal with the issue
when it does crop up from time to time is far preferable to having no policy
in place and just "winging it" each time the issue crops up.

>> But to declare a message in all of the world's languages other than
English spoken by a civis or other list member "lingua non grata" unless it
has an English translation walking beside it to keep an eye on the foreigner
so to speak, will be perceived as patronising, unwelcoming, and a gratuitous
infringement of the freedom of cives and other list members.>>

Ah, here is the *censorship* myth again. I find it curious that you
assume the reason for translations must truly be a need to "keep an eye" on
people as opposed to the stated reason of simply being understood by the
members of this list. I am perilously close to believing you are calling me
a liar when I state again and again that there is NO censorship or secret
surveillance being put forth against the non-English speaker who appears
here. There is simply a need for comprehension.

>> The powers of the Curatrix Sermonis do not exist to make unnecessary
and arbitrary regulations of this sort, but to prevent real abuses.>>

I begin to wonder if you even read through posts before adding to the list
volume. If you truly feel that I have nothing better to do than dream up
policies for no good reason, I welcome you to spend a day in my life. There
is no abuse here. There is simply a policy you disagree with, so......in
what appears to be your pattern, there "must" be a conspiracy or abuse afoot
for you to rail against.

>> I therefore again respectfully urge the Curatrix to listen to the
problems with this that we are calling to her attention, and to consider
whether that bit about the unwelcomeness of unaccompanied non-English
postings is really so important and so desirable as to impose it when there
is no consensus among the active citizenry that
it is salubrious or needed.>>

And I would urge you to go back and read the archives, in which you will
see good and sound arguments for the policy. Doing so will also disabuse you
of your assumption that this is any sort of act of agression or power-play
on my part.

I have heard your opinion. I see where you are coming from. I have
considered the policy very carefully. I stand by it. Just because the
policy is not changed to accommodate your point of view does not in any way
mean you haven't been heard.

Vale,

Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonem



Valete!

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, Aedilis Plebeius Novae Romae



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
From:	alexanderprobus@--------
Date:	Thu, 08 Feb 2001 13:14:27 -0000

Salve dear Proconsul Fabius,

Since now, I have been silent on that issue, but reading your post I
would like to ask you something:

QFM wrote:
<<Is this an invasion of privacy? Is
> this because the posts are of a treason ness nature, and only the
> conspirators need to read them? Is this because your Slovikian
dialect is just to hard to read into English? No, it is because it
is not being done by the way these people want it to be done. They
want to create a controversy where there isn't one.>>

RESPONDEO
You have not written whom you address exactly your post. As I and
probably others on that list have never heart about other Slovakian
speaking person on that list different than me, I accept your message
as addressed to me personaly. I am not sure whether you just mix my
person with somebody else or mix the country I live in with a
neighbour region (its name beginning with the same letter). In any
case, I would like to tell you that I pay small attention on any
notes according my English. Who wants will understand me perfectly,
who does not want ..... I do not care about.
In any case I speak your mother language much better than you speaks
mine. Would you like to assure me that some languages are more
valuable than other ones, just because are widly used world wide. I
do not recomend you to do that, as such arguments are irelevant to
me. Any language (whether you call it dialect or not) is important
and valuable. Please, consider about. But if you just want a
confrontation with me - that is your choice, not mine.

Bene vale

Alexander Iul. Caes. Probus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:27:07 -0800 (PST)

Salvete!

--- alexanderprobus@-------- wrote:

> You have not written whom you address exactly your
> post. As I and
> probably others on that list have never heart about
> other Slovakian
> speaking person on that list different than me, I
> accept your message
> as addressed to me personaly. I am not sure whether
> you just mix my
> person with somebody else or mix the country I live
> in with a
> neighbour region (its name beginning with the same
> letter). In any
> case, I would like to tell you that I pay small
> attention on any
> notes according my English. Who wants will
> understand me perfectly,
> who does not want ..... I do not care about.
> In any case I speak your mother language much better
> than you speaks
> mine. Would you like to assure me that some
> languages are more
> valuable than other ones, just because are widly
> used world wide. I
> do not recomend you to do that, as such arguments
> are irelevant to
> me. Any language (whether you call it dialect or
> not) is important
> and valuable. Please, consider about. But if you
> just want a
> confrontation with me - that is your choice, not
> mine.

My esteemed and valued friend, Alexander Iul. Caes.
Probus, has spoken wisely here.

Although he is not a native speaker of English, his
linguistic skills (in more languages than just English
-- he has also written to me in Serbo-Croatian, and I
am now convinced he speaks every language on earth)
were sufficient to convince me, first, to join the
NovaRomaVizantia list and, second, to become a citizen
of NovaRoma. His energy, even in a language not his
own, was my encouragement to be active here and seek
positions of leadership.

I salute him, and repeat my support for our Cur.
Sermonix.

L Aetius Dalmaticus

=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"The cemeteries are full of indispensible men." --Charles de Gaulle

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:00:19 -0500

Salvete;

I am growing ever-more-weary of the language topic, and don't intend to
continue it as I think all sides have made their points, and there is little
to add. But I am forced to answer certain untruths and slanders contained in
this particular message.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: M. Apollonius Formosanus [mailto:bvm3@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 04:22
>
> I recently made a plea for moderation in our terminology in the
> debate and attempted to induce our Curatrix Sermonis to reconsider
> the unwelcoming nature of her proposed policy. I have received a
> rebuff to these polite and reconciliatory approaches.

Indeed; you once more repeated your demand that list policy be changed to
suit your wishes, in more polite language. One of the signs of insanity is
to keep doing the same thing expecting a different outcome. Without
presenting one iota of new argument, what made you think the response would
be any different?

And, as has already been mentioned, our curatrix didn't rebuff you. I did,
and do.

> Unfortunately, Consul Vedius chose to treat it as a challenge to his
> authority (or his wife's), and just tried to inimidate me rather than
> consider my proposal on its merits.


What I chose to treat as a challenge (not to my authority, but to the
well-being and concordia of Nova Roma) was your threat to initiate a
long-term campaign of disruption and discord until and unless you got your
way. A "bruising and disagreeable campaign" you called it. You yourself
compared it to last year's self-righteous campaign against the "gender
edictum", and said the issue "is not going to go away" (at least until you
get what you want).

I simply warned you not to threaten me in such fasion. If you consider my
telling you not to threaten me to be "intimidation", then that's your
decision, of course.

I sense a pattern. Formosanus doesn't get his way, so he throws a tantrum
and tries to disrupt things until people get so tired of his nonsense that
people surrender. It didn't work last time, and it won't work this time.

> Once again we have a magistrate come out with a
> proposed restrictive rule that as far as I know (and I might be
> wrong) was never floated for public discussion before being
> promulgated. The magistrate then was reluctant to change the proposal
> in response to reasonable public criticism.

So, once Formosanus speaks The Truth on an issue, that decides it once and
for all? Did it never occur to you that someone could read your posts on the
subject and actually disagree without being some sort of fascistic power-mad
monster? Apparently not.

I will remind you that there have been good arguments given on both sides of
this question. But in the end, the magistrate responsible for making the
decision felt that your side of the argument was weaker. Do you always pitch
such a fit whenever you don't get your way? To date, the answer has been
"yes".

> And then another major
> magistrate closed ranks against the public doing the criticism. The
> same bad old politics as we have seen before.

I have never spoken against people criticizing me, my wife, or anyone else.
However, I have and will continue to speak against someone who wages (and
threatens to do so again) a self-declared war to disrupt the public
discourse until he gets his way on a particular (and divisive) issue.

I would also point out that I am far from the only person who has "closed
ranks" in support of the curatrix sermo, in the face of the
ever-more-vicious personal attacks that have been flung her way. (Speaking
as her husband rather than Consul, I would like to thank those who have done
so. Speaking as Consul, I find it not only rude, but close to intolerable
that a magistrate should suffer through such personal attacks merely for
doing her job.)

> Whatever one thinks of the language issue, surely this way of making
> a major public policy decision seriously affecting the character of
> Nova Roma as a tolerant, multi-lingual and welcoming place by one
> magistrate who thinks to force it down everyone's throat by digging
> in her heels and hoping that the public will just forget or give up
> is not the right way to make such public policy.

But you seem to feel that waging a war of disruption, throwing a months-long
temper tantrum and badgering everyone until you get your way, IS the right
way to make policy. Interesting.

Once again, you don't even seem to acknowledge the possibility that a
reasonable person could stand by their original decision even after hearing
your arguments. Do you feel that your position is just so Morally Right that
no thinking person could possibly disagree with you without an ulterior
motive? Or are you just looking for another Cause, now that you've played
the gender edict for all it was worth?

We have no need of either a messiah or a martyr, thanks.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

"For Gracchus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
bad one." (Crassus in the film "Spartacus")

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	[novaroma] New proposal for discussion
From:	Craig Stevenson <dougies@-------->
Date:	Fri, 09 Feb 2001 01:45:31 +1030

Ave all,

This is a proposal for new positions in Nova Roma. I decided to bring it here
first, as it involves the Sodalitas Militarum most of
all. I hope that these new positions will help to further strengthen not only
Nova Roma, but also the Sodalitas Militarum. This is
not the final copy. I am posting it here first, so that you can look over it
and make suggestions about it. Any ideas for additional
duties or powers that this new position should have would be very
welcome.....I want this to be as thoroughly discussed as
possible, to work out any and all kinks. After it has been discussed here for
a few days, I will then post it to other lists for
discussions.

De Tribuni Militaris

In accordance with Section IV.A.8 of the Constitution of Nova Roma, the
following offices of Tribuni Militaris are hereby
created. Four Tribuni Militaris shall serve to recruit new Legions to Nova
Roma sponsorship, and shall act as liason officers
between all Legions and the Nova roma government.

* Positions:
* Four Tribuni Militaris shall be elected by the Comitia Centuriata to serve
a term of one year.
* Each individual Tribunus Militaris must be a citizen in good standing, a
member of the Sodalitas Militarium, and age 18 or older during the time of
their service. At least one Tribunus Militaris shall be between the ages of
18 and 23.

* Duties:

* To act as liason officers of Nova Roma’s sponsored Legions to the Nova Roma
government.
* To report any problems, concerns, or queries of the Legions to the Senate.

* To present any proposals for the funding of new Legions to the Senate,
Consuls and their Quaestors.
* To act as a communications channel between the Nova Roma government and all
Legions.
* To recruit non-Nova Roma Legions into Nova Roma sponsorship.
* To help organize events involving Nova Roma’s Legions (such as funding
grant proposals, checking venues etc.) and act as representatives to other
organizations seeking participation of Nova Roma Legions at their events.
* To act in general as coordinators between the various Nova Roma Legions.

* Appreciated Duties:
* To present themselves (where possible) at re-enactment events, to publicize
Nova Roma in order to recruit new citizens to Nova Roma.
* To recruit the commanders and legionaries of non-Nova Roma Legions to Nova
Roma citizenship.
* To present educational programs to the general public about the history of
Roman Legions and about Nova Roma.

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Length of Elections
From:	gmvick32@--------
Date:	Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:34:18 -0700

Salve:

As a past Rogator, I'd also like to request that
consideration be given as to the frequency with which
elections would be held. Even with four Rogators, I'd hate
to see Rogator burnout and voter apathy from repeated
election holding. My advice would be rather than use four
Rogators per election, that you have teams of two Rogators
alternating elections and that you hold an election no more
frequently than every 6-8 weeks.

All this offered respectfully and only with the intention of
helping produce a good system.

Livia Marcia Aurelia

Jeff Smith wrote:

> Salve!
>
> --- Flavius Vedius Germanicus
> <germanicus@--------> wrote:
>
> > It occurs to me that our elections and other votes
> > do not have to take quite
> > so long as they do currently. The original intention
> > for the duration of our
> > votes was to make sure that no one missed a vote
> > because they didn't check
> > their email on a given day. But perhaps we have
> > erred too far on the side of
> > caution.
>
> One caution: a problem in the two elections in which
> I have participated (one as rogator, one as candidate)
> has been invalid ballots. I would hope that
> sufficient time will be allowed to allow people to
> react to voting errors.
>
> Another caution: We almost held an election during a
> busy travel period last Christmas. Some allowance
> should be made for voting during heavy travel periods
> (e.g., Christmas holidays, Memorial Day weekend, etc.)
>
> L Aetius Dalmaticus
>
> =====
> LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
> HQ USAREUR/7A
> CMR 420, BOX 2839
> APO AE 09063-2839
>
> "The cemeteries are full of indispensible men."
> --Charles de Gaulle
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only
> $35
> a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

www.


>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Length of Elections
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:33:48 -0500

Salve;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmvick32@-------- [mailto:gmvick32@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 11:34
>
> My advice would be rather than use four
> Rogators per election, that you have teams of two Rogators
> alternating elections and that you hold an election no more
> frequently than every 6-8 weeks.
>
> All this offered respectfully and only with the intention of
> helping produce a good system.

An excellent suggestion. Fortunately, as it stands, the law gives the
rogatores the flexibility to make such "switch offs" as they work out
amongst themselves. I wouldn't want to see the election-frequency limit put
into law, though; sometimes circumstances force elections (such as those
coming up later this month) due to legal time limits. I think as a rule of
thumb, though, the 6-8 week interval is a good goal to shoot for.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

"For Gracchus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
bad one." (Crassus in the film "Spartacus")

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	[novaroma] Digest No 1221 Re, Greek
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:52:38 -0500

Salvete et salutem omnibus

Thank you for this timely post Druse! (my, "me too!" portion of the post)

Myself, I like to see Latin posted, especially when it is accompanied with
an English translation. I also like to see other languages posted too, but
if they do not have a translation they are of very little use to me and I
wonder why they are being posted here when nearly all of us use English as
our first language. Really, even those who are arguing for "Freedom of
Linguistic Expression" are doing so in English!
Having said that, I don't see a problem if someone posts a civilized
question or statement in a language other than English in the hope that
someone can and will translate it. Something that I have always felt was a
civilized thing to do was to assist one another. Isn't this why we are here?
To help each other form a society based on Roman virtues and culture.

Most of you were not citizens when I was Praetor Urbanus and I proposed a
lex to make Latin and English the "official languages of Nova Roma". This
was something that I thought would soon become an "issue" and as has been
shown this 'topic' of language is recurrent. The proposal was misunderstood
as an attempt to "outlaw" other languages, but in fact was only done so that
there would be no (or less)confusion when 'official' Legis or other
documents were posted. I believed that they should be posted in, at least,
Latin and English. At that time I used the term "Latin and/or English"
because Nova Roma did not have the number of citizens who were fluent in
Latin that we have today, but I knew that the time would soon come when we
could do translations. I thought that this was something that the
Latinitas@-------- Sodalitas was going to do, but I haven't seem much
progress thus far.

As for the policy issued by the elected Curator Sermo Priscilla Vedia
Serena, I say we are a society ruled by Laws and she has issued a ruling.
While I don't agree 100% with her decision, I support her 110% and I'm
angered at the personal attacks she has endured. Desist! We are civilized,
are we not?

Mars nos protegas!
Valete, Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:56:37 -0800 (PST)
From: "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Subject: Greek

Salvete,

When Roma was a small town on the Tiber, the Greeks
were busy founding cities from the Pillars of Hercules
to the Black Sea. The Empire of Alexander didn't last
long, but the states that came into being when it
broke up continued the spread of Greek civilization
and the Greek language. When Roma became a great
power, she found herself in a world dominated by the
Greek language. The Romans were a very pragmatic
people, they didn't seek to impose their Latin
language on the areas they conquered, they learned to
speak Greek.

In Ancient times Greek was the international language.
Everyone who wanted to take part in a culture greater
than that of their city learned Greek as a second
language. Most Greeks, however refused to bother
learning a second language and looked down on those
who failed to learn their tongue. The Word "Barbarian"
originally meant someone who didn't know Greek, who
barked like a dog (Bar Bar). Barbarian later acquired
the meaning of "Uncivilized" because anyone who didn't
speak Greek was considered to be uncivilized.

Nova Roma finds herself in the same position as
Ancient Roma as far as language goes. We have come
upon a world that the language of an earlier power has
become the dominant international tongue. English has
the same status today that Greek had for the Ancient
Romans. Unfortuntally many of us who speak English as
their native tongue have an attitude similar to that
of the ancient Greeks. We all ready speak the
international language, why bother learning a
"barbarian" tongue?

Which brings me to the Nova Roma mail list. In a
normal mailing list or newsgroup it's considered a
violation of the rules of "nettiquite" to post to the
group in a language other than the language of the
group. It's considered allmost as bad as spamming the
list. It's looked on as very bad manners. However this
is NOT a normal mailing list. This is the place Nova
Romans receive their official news of upcoming events.
A Citizen may know enough English to get a feeling of
whats going on, but lack the skills to phrase a
question in English to get the information they need.
I see no problem in allowing these citizens to post a
reply asking for help in their native language. These
kinds of posts should be fairly infrequent. The only
time I would see a reason for moderation would be if
it developed into a conversation between two or three
citizens, addressed to each other, rather than the
group as a whole. Then it would be time for them to be
encouraged to take their private conversation to
regular e-mail instead of posting to the group (as
should be done with English threads that turn into a
private conversation).

Valete, Lucius Sicinius Drusus

Subject:	[novaroma] Language and the List
From:	gmvick32@--------
Date:	Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:09:45 -0700

Salvete,

I've refrained (mostly) from commenting on this, but now
have to.

I think the policy as stated by the Curatrix Sermonem (that
the LIST is officially in English, but that posts in other
languages are welcome when accompanied by a translation) is
a reasonable one.

I made the mistake earlier of misunderstanding the policy as
being that no language but English was welcome. I suggest
that many of the arguments contra the Curatrix might stem
from an original similar misunderstanding, and that even as
the positions became clarified, tempers flared and the
battle continued.

I thank Consul Sulla for providing numbers which, while
perhaps unfiltered as noted by Octavius, illuminate the
justification that the official language of the LIST be
English.

I recognize the well stated post of Alexander Probus here as
well. To build on what he said, the list being officially
in English is for the comfort of the many, the openness of
the list to accomodating other languages (with translation)
is sufficient recognition and properly respectful to those
who do not have English as a first languate. That most of
us in NR use English doesn't mean we are justified in
stating superiority over those who don't speak English
first. In fact, we have much to gain from having a forum
with Probus and other primarily non-English speakers among
us.

But of course the list policy does not prevent them from
being among us.

At this time, I humbly ask all who who would continue to
post what you have to gain? The discussion has moved past
the useful, and people are attacking each other now. This
is not a request you stop (only the Curatrix can do that,
and were she to right now she'd get nothing but harsh cries
of oppression), but that you consider wisely before you
continue posting on it.

I support the policy as stated by the Curatrix Sermonem. It
is workable for the list demographics we have and allows for
fairness.

Livia Marcia Aurelia

Subject:	[novaroma] Publicani and State Industries
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:02:58 -0500

Fl Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.

As we have been growing, we are encountering more and more artisans and
businesses with Roman or Roman-related items for sale. Naturally, most of
these do not want to go through the process of actually becoming a citizen
and joining the ordo equester. Currently we make no official provision for
businesses (such as Amazon.com) with goods and services that our citizens
would find of interest, and which would be able to add to Nova Roma's
revenues. Such relationships (such as JBL Statues and Amazon.com, both
currently found in the Macellum) have to date been set up on an ad-hoc
basis, with little oversight.

I would like to propose a new class of magistrates be added to the
Vigintisexviri, specifically designed to oversee such business ventures and
seek out new opportunities to make such "State Industries" available to Nova
Roma. These magistrates I would call publicani (sing. publicanus).

This would in no way impact the members of the Ordo Equester. The
Equestrians would still be vetted by the Censors, and would maintain the
usual arrangement of donating a portion (I believe the standard is 10%) of
all NR-related profits to the State. Their position in the Macellum would
not change.

The State Industries, on the other hand, would consist of non-citizens
(individuals and companies), none of the profit would be held back from the
treasury, and would be overseen by the publicani. Naturally, if there were
any expenses incurred in setting up the Industry, the publicani would be
reimbursed (either by pre-approval from the Senate, or by taking the first
of the profits for themselves to cover the initial cost).

What sort of things would be covered by the State Industries? Certainly the
various on-line partnership programs offered by places like Amazon.com,
Commissionjunction.com, TheMuseumStore.com, etc. etc. etc. 100% of any
revenue from such places would go into the treasury. There are hundreds of
these sorts of opportunities, and I think a dedicated couple of magistrates
to seek them out, set them up, and oversee them is justified.

In the case of smaller independent businesses, it would be up to the
publicanus to work out a deal. As an example, our deal with JBL Statues
states that we get a 10% commission on any sales that they get because of
their listing on our website (by mentioning our name, I believe). The Roman
glassblower in Great Britain, who was recently mentioned here on the list,
might have a similar arrangement. All of that 10% commission would in effect
be our "profit" and thus go into the treasury. To these small businesses,
our publicani would simply act as "account representatives".

It would also cover such things as the t-shirts, flags, bumper stickers, and
the coins that appear to be on the verge of finally being produced. Anything
where the State gets all the money after expenses, rather than just a
portion as a "sales tax", would be State Industries, under the oversight of
the publicani.

I would think at the outset that either two or four such magistrates would
be sufficient, as their numbers could always be added to should the need
arise.

I realize that this is in parts pretty complex, and doubtless some of it
might need more explanation (not to mention polish, revision, or even
abandonment!). As always, comments, questions, etc. are welcome.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

"For Gracchus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
bad one." (Crassus in the film "Spartacus")

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	[novaroma] In Lingua Latina, Stulti!
From:	"Robert" <robert@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:16:03 -0600

This is all incredibly stupid. This argument I mean. If any language should
be that standard for this list, it should be Latin. Otherwise, just say
whatever you want however is best for you. And if nobody else understands
it, they won't reply. Simple as that. Anyone wanting it to be English only,
or whatever else, is being truly ignorant of the fact that this is the
Internet, a global community, where I'm sure there are dozens of native
tongues on this list alone.

Subject:	[novaroma] Call for Candidates #2
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:21:54 -0500

Salvete!

Just a reminder, there are still two openings for the office of Rogatorus
open, and to date no prospective candidates have come forward. This is not
only an important post, but also an excellent way to get to know the in's
and out's of our political system.

Any interested cives are encouraged to contact the Consuls
(consuls@--------).

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

"For Gracchus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
bad one." (Crassus in the film "Spartacus")

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	[novaroma] Weather report
From:	"Procopious" <procopious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:46:03 -0800

Lucius Mauricius Procopious Omnes SPD
It's snowing here in Am.Bor. (macronational Washington state) An unusual
occurrance for us. For those who are interested in what's happening here,
weather or otherwise, please follow the link below to subscribe to our
Provincial list. I'm not sure if I missed a post or if none of my Provincial
neighbors mentioned our recent get together. In case it hasn't been told
I'll let you all know we recently had a meeting in Portland. It was great to
meet everyone. So, for those cives in this area, please sign up,
communicate, get involved.

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

Join the America Boreoccidentalis Mailing List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason
for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died
c.560s]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 8:52 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Digest No 1221 Re, Greek


> Salvete et salutem omnibus
>
> Thank you for this timely post Druse! (my, "me too!" portion of the post)
>
> Myself, I like to see Latin posted, especially when it is accompanied with
> an English translation. I also like to see other languages posted too, but
> if they do not have a translation they are of very little use to me and I
> wonder why they are being posted here when nearly all of us use English as
> our first language. Really, even those who are arguing for "Freedom of
> Linguistic Expression" are doing so in English!
> Having said that, I don't see a problem if someone posts a civilized
> question or statement in a language other than English in the hope that
> someone can and will translate it. Something that I have always felt was a
> civilized thing to do was to assist one another. Isn't this why we are
here?
> To help each other form a society based on Roman virtues and culture.
>
> Most of you were not citizens when I was Praetor Urbanus and I proposed a
> lex to make Latin and English the "official languages of Nova Roma". This
> was something that I thought would soon become an "issue" and as has been
> shown this 'topic' of language is recurrent. The proposal was
misunderstood
> as an attempt to "outlaw" other languages, but in fact was only done so
that
> there would be no (or less)confusion when 'official' Legis or other
> documents were posted. I believed that they should be posted in, at least,
> Latin and English. At that time I used the term "Latin and/or English"
> because Nova Roma did not have the number of citizens who were fluent in
> Latin that we have today, but I knew that the time would soon come when we
> could do translations. I thought that this was something that the
> Latinitas@-------- Sodalitas was going to do, but I haven't seem much
> progress thus far.
>
> As for the policy issued by the elected Curator Sermo Priscilla Vedia
> Serena, I say we are a society ruled by Laws and she has issued a ruling.
> While I don't agree 100% with her decision, I support her 110% and I'm
> angered at the personal attacks she has endured. Desist! We are civilized,
> are we not?
>
> Mars nos protegas!
> Valete, Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:56:37 -0800 (PST)
> From: "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
> Subject: Greek
>
> Salvete,
>
> When Roma was a small town on the Tiber, the Greeks
> were busy founding cities from the Pillars of Hercules
> to the Black Sea. The Empire of Alexander didn't last
> long, but the states that came into being when it
> broke up continued the spread of Greek civilization
> and the Greek language. When Roma became a great
> power, she found herself in a world dominated by the
> Greek language. The Romans were a very pragmatic
> people, they didn't seek to impose their Latin
> language on the areas they conquered, they learned to
> speak Greek.
>
> In Ancient times Greek was the international language.
> Everyone who wanted to take part in a culture greater
> than that of their city learned Greek as a second
> language. Most Greeks, however refused to bother
> learning a second language and looked down on those
> who failed to learn their tongue. The Word "Barbarian"
> originally meant someone who didn't know Greek, who
> barked like a dog (Bar Bar). Barbarian later acquired
> the meaning of "Uncivilized" because anyone who didn't
> speak Greek was considered to be uncivilized.
>
> Nova Roma finds herself in the same position as
> Ancient Roma as far as language goes. We have come
> upon a world that the language of an earlier power has
> become the dominant international tongue. English has
> the same status today that Greek had for the Ancient
> Romans. Unfortuntally many of us who speak English as
> their native tongue have an attitude similar to that
> of the ancient Greeks. We all ready speak the
> international language, why bother learning a
> "barbarian" tongue?
>
> Which brings me to the Nova Roma mail list. In a
> normal mailing list or newsgroup it's considered a
> violation of the rules of "nettiquite" to post to the
> group in a language other than the language of the
> group. It's considered allmost as bad as spamming the
> list. It's looked on as very bad manners. However this
> is NOT a normal mailing list. This is the place Nova
> Romans receive their official news of upcoming events.
> A Citizen may know enough English to get a feeling of
> whats going on, but lack the skills to phrase a
> question in English to get the information they need.
> I see no problem in allowing these citizens to post a
> reply asking for help in their native language. These
> kinds of posts should be fairly infrequent. The only
> time I would see a reason for moderation would be if
> it developed into a conversation between two or three
> citizens, addressed to each other, rather than the
> group as a whole. Then it would be time for them to be
> encouraged to take their private conversation to
> regular e-mail instead of posting to the group (as
> should be done with English threads that turn into a
> private conversation).
>
> Valete, Lucius Sicinius Drusus
>
>
>
>
>
>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Weather report
From:	gmvick32@--------
Date:	Thu, 08 Feb 2001 11:30:30 -0700

Great to hear about your meeting!!

It's snowing in Denver too. A more common occurance.

Livia Marcia Aurelia



Procopious wrote:

> Lucius Mauricius Procopious Omnes SPD
> It's snowing here in Am.Bor. (macronational Washington
> state) An unusual
> occurrance for us. For those who are interested in what's
> happening here,
> weather or otherwise, please follow the link below to
> subscribe to our
> Provincial list. I'm not sure if I missed a post or if
> none of my Provincial
> neighbors mentioned our recent get together. In case it
> hasn't been told
> I'll let you all know we recently had a meeting in
> Portland. It was great to
> meet everyone. So, for those cives in this area, please
> sign up,
> communicate, get involved.
>
> Lucius Mauricius Procopious
> procopious@--------
> ICQ# 83516618
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The Gens Mauricia
> http://www.geocities.com/procopious
>
> Join the America Boreoccidentalis Mailing List
> http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> "Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of
> God that the
> affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not
> knowing the reason
> for what things they see occur; and what seems to be
> without cause is easy
> to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter
> every mortal will
> decide for himself according to his taste."
> -Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born
> c.490/507- died
> c.560s]
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 8:52 AM
> Subject: [novaroma] Digest No 1221 Re, Greek
>
>
> > Salvete et salutem omnibus
> >
> > Thank you for this timely post Druse! (my, "me too!"
> portion of the post)
> >
> > Myself, I like to see Latin posted, especially when it
> is accompanied with
> > an English translation. I also like to see other
> languages posted too, but
> > if they do not have a translation they are of very
> little use to me and I
> > wonder why they are being posted here when nearly all of
> us use English as
> > our first language. Really, even those who are arguing
> for "Freedom of
> > Linguistic Expression" are doing so in English!
> > Having said that, I don't see a problem if someone posts
> a civilized
> > question or statement in a language other than English
> in the hope that
> > someone can and will translate it. Something that I have
> always felt was a
> > civilized thing to do was to assist one another. Isn't
> this why we are
> here?
> > To help each other form a society based on Roman virtues
> and culture.
> >
> > Most of you were not citizens when I was Praetor Urbanus
> and I proposed a
> > lex to make Latin and English the "official languages of
> Nova Roma". This
> > was something that I thought would soon become an
> "issue" and as has been
> > shown this 'topic' of language is recurrent. The
> proposal was
> misunderstood
> > as an attempt to "outlaw" other languages, but in fact
> was only done so
> that
> > there would be no (or less)confusion when 'official'
> Legis or other
> > documents were posted. I believed that they should be
> posted in, at least,
> > Latin and English. At that time I used the term "Latin
> and/or English"
> > because Nova Roma did not have the number of citizens
> who were fluent in
> > Latin that we have today, but I knew that the time would
> soon come when we
> > could do translations. I thought that this was something
> that the
> > Latinitas@-------- Sodalitas was going to do, but I
> haven't seem much
> > progress thus far.
> >
> > As for the policy issued by the elected Curator Sermo
> Priscilla Vedia
> > Serena, I say we are a society ruled by Laws and she has
> issued a ruling.
> > While I don't agree 100% with her decision, I support
> her 110% and I'm
> > angered at the personal attacks she has endured. Desist!
> We are civilized,
> > are we not?
> >
> > Mars nos protegas!
> > Valete, Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus
> >
> >
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> >
> > Message: 14
> > Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:56:37 -0800 (PST)
> > From: "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
> > Subject: Greek
> >
> > Salvete,
> >
> > When Roma was a small town on the Tiber, the Greeks
> > were busy founding cities from the Pillars of Hercules
> > to the Black Sea. The Empire of Alexander didn't last
> > long, but the states that came into being when it
> > broke up continued the spread of Greek civilization
> > and the Greek language. When Roma became a great
> > power, she found herself in a world dominated by the
> > Greek language. The Romans were a very pragmatic
> > people, they didn't seek to impose their Latin
> > language on the areas they conquered, they learned to
> > speak Greek.
> >
> > In Ancient times Greek was the international language.
> > Everyone who wanted to take part in a culture greater
> > than that of their city learned Greek as a second
> > language. Most Greeks, however refused to bother
> > learning a second language and looked down on those
> > who failed to learn their tongue. The Word "Barbarian"
> > originally meant someone who didn't know Greek, who
> > barked like a dog (Bar Bar). Barbarian later acquired
> > the meaning of "Uncivilized" because anyone who didn't
> > speak Greek was considered to be uncivilized.
> >
> > Nova Roma finds herself in the same position as
> > Ancient Roma as far as language goes. We have come
> > upon a world that the language of an earlier power has
> > become the dominant international tongue. English has
> > the same status today that Greek had for the Ancient
> > Romans. Unfortuntally many of us who speak English as
> > their native tongue have an attitude similar to that
> > of the ancient Greeks. We all ready speak the
> > international language, why bother learning a
> > "barbarian" tongue?
> >
> > Which brings me to the Nova Roma mail list. In a
> > normal mailing list or newsgroup it's considered a
> > violation of the rules of "nettiquite" to post to the
> > group in a language other than the language of the
> > group. It's considered allmost as bad as spamming the
> > list. It's looked on as very bad manners. However this
> > is NOT a normal mailing list. This is the place Nova
> > Romans receive their official news of upcoming events.
> > A Citizen may know enough English to get a feeling of
> > whats going on, but lack the skills to phrase a
> > question in English to get the information they need.
> > I see no problem in allowing these citizens to post a
> > reply asking for help in their native language. These
> > kinds of posts should be fairly infrequent. The only
> > time I would see a reason for moderation would be if
> > it developed into a conversation between two or three
> > citizens, addressed to each other, rather than the
> > group as a whole. Then it would be time for them to be
> > encouraged to take their private conversation to
> > regular e-mail instead of posting to the group (as
> > should be done with English threads that turn into a
> > private conversation).
> >
> > Valete, Lucius Sicinius Drusus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor


www. .com


>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] Local Government
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:24:08 -0800 (PST)

Salvete,

Altho' this subject has vanished from this list, it
has not vanished from my thoughts. Resources for
research are hard for me to get my hands on here, but
I did find a book that described local governments in
the Republic and Empire.

I provide these references for the interest of those
working on establishing local groups around NovaRoma.
I hope someone will find it useful.

L Aetius Dalmaticus

LOCAL GOVERNMENT

[From the book ATLAS OF THE ROMAN WORLD.]

The army in these and other newly conquered provinces
became an effective agent for romanization, since the
legionary camps generated informal settlements known
as ‘canabae’, and in due course the foundation nearby
of civilian towns (’municipia’);a particularly good
example of this is Carnuntum on the Danube. (p. 80)

The Romans could provide civic institutions resembling
those of the ‘municipia’ of Italy. The new cities
were given councils (‘curiae’) composed of the
wealthier members of local society, who on holding
public office received the Roman citizenship and were
formally enrolled in the ancient voting districts of
Rome. The municipal office of ‘duumvir’ appears in
Gaul as the Celtic ‘vergobret’ and in Punic Africa as
‘sufes’. (p. 81)

Like all other Roman towns, Pompeii had a local
government closely modeled on that of Rome. The
ruling body was a town council (‘ordo’) of 80-100 men
(‘decurions’), who were drawn from the propertied
class and held office for life. The executive
magistrates were two annually elected ‘duoviri’
(equivalent to the Roman consuls), assisted by aediles
who, like their Roman counterparts, administered
public works.” (p. 86)

The actual processes of government of the Roman Empire
remained much the same throughout the period from the
Flavian to the Severan dynasties. The emperors did
not customarily take major initiatives on their own,
save in matters of military policy, nor were they
equipped to do so. They neither possessed the means
nor felt the need to consult public opinion; nor did
they devise the instruments of active policy making
which modern governments take for granted. Provincial
governors administered their provinces at their own
discretion, usually with only the most general
guidelines from the emperors. The financial
administration of the cities was one of the few areas
where the emperors did intervene, and did so more
extensively as time went on, partly by the appointment
of officials instructed to supervise the financial
management of the cities and partly by requiring the
consent of the emperor or provincial governor to
municipal decrees on financial matters. In general,
the emperors governed by responding to approaches made
to them. If a community wished to address itself to
an emperor, it would do so by passing a decree in
proper form by council and assembly and sending it to
the emperor, either by letter through the governor of
the province, or by sending an embassy mandated to
present its case in support of the decree.
Inscriptions show that the participating in and
financing of embassies was one of the forms of civic
munificence most frequently undertaken by the leading
men of local communities. (p. 110)

ATLAS OF THE ROMAN WORLD, Tom Cornell & John Matthews.
ISBN 0-87196-652-2. Facts on File, Inc., 460 Park
Ave. South, NY, NY 10016.

=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"The cemeteries are full of indispensible men." --Charles de Gaulle

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Local Government
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:36:05 -0500

Salve;

Excellent stuff! But fear not; the subject has vanished only temporarily
from the list. I'm sure after our New Jersey meeting on the 18th, there'll
be a lot of talk about local groups again!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

"For Gracchus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
bad one." (Crassus in the film "Spartacus")

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Smith [mailto:JSmithCSA@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 13:24
> To: *NR-Main List
> Subject: [novaroma] Local Government
>
>
> Salvete,
>
> Altho' this subject has vanished from this list, it
> has not vanished from my thoughts. Resources for
> research are hard for me to get my hands on here, but
> I did find a book that described local governments in
> the Republic and Empire.
>
> I provide these references for the interest of those
> working on establishing local groups around NovaRoma.
> I hope someone will find it useful.
>
> L Aetius Dalmaticus
>
> LOCAL GOVERNMENT
>
> [From the book ATLAS OF THE ROMAN WORLD.]
>
> The army in these and other newly conquered provinces
> became an effective agent for romanization, since the
> legionary camps generated informal settlements known
> as ‘canabae’, and in due course the foundation nearby
> of civilian towns (’municipia’);a particularly good
> example of this is Carnuntum on the Danube. (p. 80)
>
> The Romans could provide civic institutions resembling
> those of the ‘municipia’ of Italy. The new cities
> were given councils (‘curiae’) composed of the
> wealthier members of local society, who on holding
> public office received the Roman citizenship and were
> formally enrolled in the ancient voting districts of
> Rome. The municipal office of ‘duumvir’ appears in
> Gaul as the Celtic ‘vergobret’ and in Punic Africa as
> ‘sufes’. (p. 81)
>
> Like all other Roman towns, Pompeii had a local
> government closely modeled on that of Rome. The
> ruling body was a town council (‘ordo’) of 80-100 men
> (‘decurions’), who were drawn from the propertied
> class and held office for life. The executive
> magistrates were two annually elected ‘duoviri’
> (equivalent to the Roman consuls), assisted by aediles
> who, like their Roman counterparts, administered
> public works.” (p. 86)
>
> The actual processes of government of the Roman Empire
> remained much the same throughout the period from the
> Flavian to the Severan dynasties. The emperors did
> not customarily take major initiatives on their own,
> save in matters of military policy, nor were they
> equipped to do so. They neither possessed the means
> nor felt the need to consult public opinion; nor did
> they devise the instruments of active policy making
> which modern governments take for granted. Provincial
> governors administered their provinces at their own
> discretion, usually with only the most general
> guidelines from the emperors. The financial
> administration of the cities was one of the few areas
> where the emperors did intervene, and did so more
> extensively as time went on, partly by the appointment
> of officials instructed to supervise the financial
> management of the cities and partly by requiring the
> consent of the emperor or provincial governor to
> municipal decrees on financial matters. In general,
> the emperors governed by responding to approaches made
> to them. If a community wished to address itself to
> an emperor, it would do so by passing a decree in
> proper form by council and assembly and sending it to
> the emperor, either by letter through the governor of
> the province, or by sending an embassy mandated to
> present its case in support of the decree.
> Inscriptions show that the participating in and
> financing of embassies was one of the forms of civic
> munificence most frequently undertaken by the leading
> men of local communities. (p. 110)
>
> ATLAS OF THE ROMAN WORLD, Tom Cornell & John Matthews.
> ISBN 0-87196-652-2. Facts on File, Inc., 460 Park
> Ave. South, NY, NY 10016.
>
> =====
> LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
> HQ USAREUR/7A
> CMR 420, BOX 2839
> APO AE 09063-2839
>
> "The cemeteries are full of indispensible men." --Charles de Gaulle
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
> a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On The Laws Of Magick
From:	Piparskegg UllRsson <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:59:00 -0600

Ave Jane,

"J. T. Sibley" wrote:
>
> Ave Piparskegg!
> (er du norsk?)

Pip: No, I'm a US citizen, of mixed European heritage, though most of my ancestors
were Celts and Germanics of varying tribes, plus Italic, Nordic, Slavic and Iroquoian.
Typical "American" mixed bag .-{>

Piparskegg (and hence Piperbarbus in Nova Roma) is a Faith name I use as an Asatruar,
that is, a Germano-Nordic Heathen.

>
> Can transubstantiation, then, apply to similar "magical changing" of one item to another?
> It seems logical!
> jane
>

I would think that transubstantiation could be used in a religious, or magical, sense.

Examples can be seen in Roman, and Celtic, rituals using effigies in place of humans as
sacrificial offering.

Some Heathens of my acquaintance will bake a Yule Boar of bread,
take their Yuletide oaths upon it, then it is burnt.
This is done in place of a Yuletide swine sacrifice.

I've done some reading on how religious rituals develop over time
from the base concepts and elder rituals involving blood sacrifice
to "fully" developed dogma and "high church" ritual.

It seems that most faith ways evolve along similar lines in this,
if the practitioners are allowed freedom from imposed ideas.
Such imposition looks to cause a cognitive disconnect between that which is holy
and one's conduct under the codes of the religion.
Natural, evolutionary change is always better in human faith ways and social structure,
in my view, than mandated and revolutionary upheaval.
Evolution is slow, constant and lasts; revolution gets counter-revolved.

Benedictus -- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
================================================
[alias]
================================================
- Piparskeggr Ullar skjaldr beri
AFA - AA - ORV
Tribalist Asatruar and traveler.
My homestead
http://www.geocities.com/piparskegg/index.html

Subject:	Re: [Fwd: [novaroma] Poem to the Old City]
From:	Piparskegg UllRsson <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Thu, 08 Feb 2001 11:40:44 -0600

Ave Livia Marcia,

gmvick32@-------- wrote:
>
> Livia rouses from her foggy state to comment.
>
> Venator, I'm impressed. You've managed to do a quite decent
> job of actually following a pattern of structure such as
> you'd expect to find in formal Celtic bardic poetry. I
> enjoyed this fine poem, and that's a compliment coming from
> me, the poetry snob.
>
> Livia Marcia Aurelia
>

And I rouse from just reading the way too many lists I'm on to thank you .-{)

A note about my poetry, I write in what I call Pipsdrapa, any resemblance to an actual Skaldic or
Bardic form is purely accidental. I just try to keep to 4 line stanzas, mostly without end or
internal rhyme or much alliteration, each line being eight beats long.

A short further example, which is a lead in to a long series of poems I'm writing about men and
women who have contributed to the revival in my Faith Community:

The huntsman grey entered his lodge
Put up his bow upon its pegs
Removed his cloak and other gear
And sat to desk took up his pen

Thank you again, and I shall continue to write.
Hmmm, perhaps a cycle of odes about the men and women who have shaped Nova Roma thus far!?
After the current project, though.

--
===========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis, Benedicte Omnes!
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator - vates

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:35:23 +0100

M. Apollonius Formosanus Priscillae Vediae Serenae Curatrici Semonis
S.P.D.

I want to thank you for your explanatory post. It confirms what I
have said all along that you have meant well all along and have been
trying to do your job responsibly.

That does not mean I think you are right, of course, in this
specific case, and with your explanation in hand I can now point out
where I think you have not taken some things adequately into
consideration.

Your key passage, I think, is why you disagree with our pure and
traditional freedom of language on the list:
_______________
B) All languages, no limits, no format: I did not go this route
because it leads to unnecessary confusion. Going this route leads to
a poster sending a message with NO guarantee that anyone will take it
upon themselves to translate, with no guarantees that IF someone does
translate that they will do so accurately, and with potentially no
way for the original poster to comprehend the responses his or her
post gets once(if) it has been translated. This policy would lead to
some extra posts, but that is not the primary reason for my not going
this way. The chaos and uncertainty is the primary factor against
this "free-for-all"/"Tower of Babel" approach.
________________

Now this brings up the question of whether there is very much
confusion or whether here might not be a degree of necessity or
desirability to any confusion.

As I have remarked before, there exists a Nova Roma Vizantia List on
which there is explicit welcome for any and all languages to be used
freely. I have seen there posts in English, Latin, Slovakian,
Hungarian, Russian, and I believe German. There is no "confusion",
there is simply a series of e-mails in different languages. People
consider the individual(s) they most want to reach, their common
languages, their own language proficiency, the time available to
write in a language they don't know so well, how they feel that day,
etc. - then they just write, with great freedom and usually great
satisfaction to the intended recipients and others who get to see
things in agreeably exotic languages. This is a beautiful model for
the Main List, which thus far has been dominated by one Language -
English - to an excessive extent, causing those without even a fair
passive knowledge of English to feel completely excluded, and
therefore not to be here at all, which exacerbates the tendency to
have few non-English postings. (After all, you never promised
non-Anglophones translations of *everything* into their languages,
nor would that be feasible - so why not let them have something from
time to time just for them as a minority thing?)

Now, perhaps when you think of "confusion", you are thinking
*specifically* of scrambles to translate an interesting-looking
message after it is posted. Sometimes this might indeed justifiably
be called "confusion", I agree with you. However, the problem is that
people erroneously think translation necessary. On the Vizantia List
one rarely sees calls for translation, but just lets ununderstood
posts float by in peace.

But since you have proposed as Curatrix pairing people with
translators, if the original poster did not have his post translated
to English, and some English speaker was dying to have a translation
of something non-English that looked interesting, then the Anglophone
could ask you to provide a translator for the post out of Language X
and into English. Would you not do so? And would that not solve the
problem from the other end without forcing the writer to submit it
before posting to a translation?

Now, you may ask why someone would *want* to post to the list in his
own language without a translation, if he translation were freely
provided for by the Curatrix. Here are some possible reasons:

1) He may feel that the *forced* translation of his noble and
beloved mother tongue into English ("daughter of British imperialism
and American dollars and trashy pop culture") was patronising, even
if his original text were condescendingly allowed to appear too.
People tend to dislike what is forced upon them and this is a very
live issue and attitude in many parts of the world. (It may be
keeping some people off this list right now.)

2) He may be a Portuguese desiring to contact everybody in Portugal
and Brazil together, or a Latin American wishing to contact people in
Spain as well. Or any language minority among us not having its own
NR list at all. (The Gallia list accepts Canadian Francophones, so
that is not an example.) He might wish to correspond in that language
(perhaps privately afterwards, perhaps publicly) and not to bother
the users of the list with a translation about something that does
not particularly concern them.

3) He may feel constrained by his reluctance to heap urgent and
longish translation duties on an appointed translator-parner whom he
does not know well personally, and prefer to post in his own language
and just let those who can understand be his audience. I would
certainly feel that way if I were in his shoes.

4) He may not be able to read the English posts well enough to
actually benefit, and so does not know what is going on. He just
wants to see if he can find some people to correspond with
successfully in a language known to him in the medium of the Main
List, which should be the most inclusive list for all cives including
those who prefer to write in languages other than English.

5) Someone might wish to write in Latin, our esteemed national
Language. It is normal on the German and French lists to *officially*
accept Latin as a welcome altenative, even though it an option rarely
used. A translation out of our national language should not be
considered necessary as a matter of principle, one might think.

Those are some reasons why someone might prefer not to fuss about
with the red tape of forced translations. There may be others.

If we pursue a policy of openness and encouragement, there should be
a growing number of non-English preferers on the list to provide an
audience for more non-English posts. (As well as many multi-lingual
Anglophones.) In addition to a growing number of posts in Latin,
which seems to me highly desirable. And then we would see the
proportion of English dwindle to something approaching its actual
level of preference among our population, and non-English preferers
would feel more welcome here.

I think I have shown that your fundamenal premises that freedom
would breed confusion and that there is no necessity (or at least
desirability) to have untranslated posts to be less than fully true.

Politically speaking, I think that any magistrate issuing edicta or
rules that reduce a previouly-enjoyed freedom is in a ticklish
situation. A rule like you propose to limit what looks like a natural
right to simply express oneself in the language of one's choice seems
to many not to have the character of a mere administrative rule, but
to be a major policy decision about how we perceive our relation to
our main forum, and how Nova Roma would be projecting itself to
others as closed to the free and natural paricipation of
non-Anglophones. Such big policy decisions do not strike many of us
as suitable to be determined by one magistrate.

It is no good arguing that you were duely elected, etc., about which
there is no dispute. Actually I do not think that you warned us at
the time of the elections that you were going to take a measure like
this against free and unencumbered posting in language of choice and
in favour of compulsory translation. You were, therefore, not given a
mandate for that just because we voted for you, and many of us feel
that this also goes beyond he general task of a Curator Sermonis to
keep order and decency on the list. Had I known that you had such a
policy in mind at the time of the elections, I would have done my
best to arrange a competing candidate with more traditional and
permissive views on the matter, because I think it is of wide and
general importance. Not for any personal reasons, mind you, but
simply on this matter of policy.

Keeping the list free to all languages without red tape and without
giving an artificially privileged status to one language will not
solve our language problems, I grant you. That is why I proposed the
creation of a linguistic policy study committee to Vedius, in which I
envisaged your participation. However, an unencumbered,
linguistically free list would be a good start.

What the critics of this policy would like, Priscilla, is simply a
little changing of the wording so that here would would be no word
"unwelcome", but something gentler and more helpful like (in multiple
languages): "English is the most common language used for posting on
this list. If you do not feel comfortable using English, you may wish
to ask the Curatrix Sermonis to pair you with a volunteer translator
so that a translation will be able to accompany your original text to
make it intelligible to the largest number of list subscribers, and
so that you can have replies translated for you into your own
language if desired. Latin is also always welcome."

Is such a wording really so unacceptable to you? If you would make
some sort of minor alteration like that, you would have a consensus
on the matter with the electorate who voted for you, and that would
be better for everyone concerned, would it not? This list does belong
to all of us, after all.

I thank you for kindly listening.

Valete!

__________________________________
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:57:55 -0500
From: "JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Subject: RE: Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression

Salve,
>> 1) I never called her fascist. I said she used fascist methods.
Which is the issue. >>

This may very well be your opinion (baseless as it is) but is far
from true.

>> Fascist is not an insult it is a political position, which I
don't share. Communist is not an insult it is a poltical position
which I share..
Taleban is not an insult it is a religious and political position
which I don t share. Now if you feel that every political position
you don t share, or feel you don t share is perceived as an offense
in english, it would really be better to speak a language from a
multi-party country. >>

We all know why you chose the terms you did, and for you to try and
back-pedal now and claim they were not meant to be offensive is
simply cowardly. I, as a woman, take great offense at the reference
to the Taliban in particular. If you know anything about the
organization you will need no further explanation.

>> We now have a rule which prohibits non-english _speaking_
citizens to freely communicate on the main-list. >>

Ah, here is the crux of your argument. Allow me to correct you.
Posts from non-English speakers are MORE than welcome here. Heck,
posts in MORE than one language are MORE than welcome here. As a
global community I take great pleasure in fostering input from as
many individuals as we can. That *only* requirement is that a
translation of posts into English be provided so that the vast
majority will be able to understand, communicate with and
welcome the non-English speaker. This is fascism?

>> How the hell are you expecting 2 non-english speking citizens to
contact each other ? Passing through superior authority ?
(Propraetor, Curatrix). At best it is "Democratic Centralism"
(communist way of communicatin between the cells) at worst
Military/Fascist communication and yes for me they are the
same. That is a problem. >>

This brings up another of your pet fears.......censorship. I have
stated publicly, and will do so here again, that translations are
just that: translations. "Yo soy una chica" will be rendered as "I
am a girl" on this list. Nothing added, nothing changed, and no
"secretive approval by a superior authority" is in the works here.
Posts by non-English speakers are subject to NO censorship. In
reality, if I *were* the power-mad tyrant you ( and a few
others)would have some believe, it would be an easy enough thing
to moderate the entire list, requiring ALL posts pass through me
before appearing. That is the farthest thing from what I swore an
oath to do. To continue to assert that translations are somehow
subject to some scrutiny or extra requirements is untrue.

>> Now our consul expressed his position: the idea comes from an
political opponent, consequently it is bad and will not be done. Is
this really politics in the best interest of NovaRoma ? >>

Let me present some facts for you, as well as one or two others
whose comments lead me to believe this is necessary. The Consul does
not make list policy. The Consul is not the duly elected magistrate
in charge of running this list. He is my husband, true. He is
opinionated, true. But make no mistake. I, as Curatrix Sermonem, am
responsible for this list and the smooth running thereof. You are
free to think what you will of my husband's politics, but do not make
the mistake of confusing us as being of one mind on all issues.

>> I really didn t see ANY argument explaining why this is GOOD for
NovaRoma, I saw some arguments of our Curatrix explaining why she
feels it is not SO bad. >>

This is simply untrue. I have stated repeatedly why I feel this
policy is best for this list. Let me do so again: like many issues
in life, there are several sides.

A) All English, no exceptions. I did not go this route because it
WOULD be exclusionary and unfair to non-English speakers. There is
no need or call to prohibit or exclude all except those who can write
in English.

B) All languages, no limits, no format: I did not go this route
because it leads to unnecessary confusion. Going this route leads to
a poster sending a message with NO guarantee that anyone will take it
upon themselves to translate, with no guarantees that IF someone does
translate that they will do so accurately, and with potentially no
way for the original poster to comprehend the responses his or her
post gets once(if) it has been translated. This policy would lead to
some extra posts, but that is not the primary reason for my not going
this way. The chaos and uncertainty is the primary factor against
this "free-for-all"/"Tower of Babel" approach.

C) All languages welcome, as long as English translation is
provided. This choice allows all posters to post. NO ONE is banned
or punished for not being able to write in English. There is no
penalty for posting in non-English the first time out. In the rare
instances where an individual subscribes to the list but either
cannot or will not post in English, translators have volunteered to
help them to post. These posts will not necessarily excise the
original language. As has been seen here by Senator
Vado, for example, who posts edicts in both Latin and English, dual
language posts are MORE than welcome. This choice also guarantees
that the poster has someone to work with in ensuring their ideas get
through and that any replies they may need translated back into their
native tongue will also be taken care of. There is no harm done in
this policy. No one's freedoms are being taken away and no one is
being censored. In point of fact, this choice may very well
encourage those who are insecure in their English-writing skills to
seek out a partner to help them jump in and participate more. This
compromise actually benefits the poster, the translators and the
nation as a whole as more members may choose to step in
and participate.

>> I don't agree but understand. >>

I don't believe you do understand, given your misconceptions above.
Hopefully now you will have a clearer view of things however.

>> But why is the "unwelcomness" of non-english posts GOOD ? >>

Here it is again: ALL languages are welcome here, provided a
translation into English is provided. That is a good thing. It is
good for the poster
a) his/her point is understood and is able to be replied to and
b)he/she is still able to show national pride by using their own
native language if they desire/need. Who is being harmed here?

>> Is it enough for us to have rules that are not too bad ? Why
setting rules that are just not too bad ? >>

Whether you agree with it or not, this policy is intended to be of
benefit to the members of this list. If you truly believe I have
time enough on my hands to dream up rules with no basis and for no
reason, I would invite you to spend a day in my life. I act as I see
is best for the list as a whole. Believe me when I say that I read
every post every day and that every opinion IS taken into account.
Just because I do not change policy to accommodate every opinion
does not mean you haven't been heard.

>> Is n t it easier to let the list free ? >>

No, in point of fact it would not be easier to have a list without
rules. All that is being done with this policy is that posts will be
presented in a way so that the maximum number of members can
understand it. For some, that might very well be in the "native"
tongue, for others it will be in the English translation. That
freedom, freedom to speak and be understood, is
the purpose of this list.

>> this has become a problem beyond reason or common sense, just
a problem of showing power. Showing power instead of proving your
point is a fascistic attitude. >

This is far from a power play on my part. Let's be honest....if
this were merely a bid for me to flex my muscles I would not be
tolerating the kind of name-calling I have been subject to by you.
If this were about "power" I have the "power" to end this entire
discussion. I will not do so. Because, you see, this is not about
ego for me. This is not about making rules for no good reason. This
is not about me making an effort to see how many non-English speakers
I can offend oppress and alienate. This is, whether you choose to
believe it or not, a policy I have thought long and hard on
and genuinely feel is in the best interest of the list as a whole.
Does that mean some might disagree? Maybe so, and that is fine. Does
this mean it will make every person happy? No, probably not, but
that is the way of the world. In a perfect world, perhaps, we would
all be 100% content with 100% of the rules. In this world, however,
I need to do what I feel is right for the list as a whole.

The very fact that this policy does not hurt anyone, welcomes all
languages and, in fact, might serve to encourage some to post now
that they see assistance is available, seems to be totally overlooked
by some....yourself included....who seem driven to prove that this is
yet another "power-mad-magistrate-out-to-oppress-the-little guy." I
am not such a magistrate. I am merely a dedicated Curatrix doing as
I feel is best for reasons which have already been explained.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonem

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, Aedilis Plebeius Novae Romae
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius;
Musaeus Collegii Polyhymniae Sodalitatis Musarum    
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
From:	"Procopious" <procopious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:01:33 -0800

Lucius Mauricius Procopious Omnes SPD
I would like to ask two questions concerning linguistic expression. #1 How
far does it extend? May I use any kind of speech I see fit? Am I welcome to
share a nasty limerick on the main list? "There once was a man from
Nantucket....." :} If you support the idea of allowing any language a
person chooses, do you support any topic a person chooses? I have an
interest in ancient Sparta, may I address this on the main list? How far do
you want to extend the expression of linguistic freedom? #2 If we encourage
multiple languages on the main list then what is the purpose of all the
other language specific lists? Should we enforce an "any language you
choose" policy on the main list and simply discontinue the other lists?

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

Join the America Boreoccidentalis Mailing List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason
for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died
c.560s]
----- Original Message -----
From: "M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 11:35 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression



M. Apollonius Formosanus Priscillae Vediae Serenae Curatrici Semonis
S.P.D.

I want to thank you for your explanatory post. It confirms what I
have said all along that you have meant well all along and have been
trying to do your job responsibly.

That does not mean I think you are right, of course, in this
specific case, and with your explanation in hand I can now point out
where I think you have not taken some things adequately into
consideration.

Your key passage, I think, is why you disagree with our pure and
traditional freedom of language on the list:
_______________
B) All languages, no limits, no format: I did not go this route
because it leads to unnecessary confusion. Going this route leads to
a poster sending a message with NO guarantee that anyone will take it
upon themselves to translate, with no guarantees that IF someone does
translate that they will do so accurately, and with potentially no
way for the original poster to comprehend the responses his or her
post gets once(if) it has been translated. This policy would lead to
some extra posts, but that is not the primary reason for my not going
this way. The chaos and uncertainty is the primary factor against
this "free-for-all"/"Tower of Babel" approach.
________________

Now this brings up the question of whether there is very much
confusion or whether here might not be a degree of necessity or
desirability to any confusion.

As I have remarked before, there exists a Nova Roma Vizantia List on
which there is explicit welcome for any and all languages to be used
freely. I have seen there posts in English, Latin, Slovakian,
Hungarian, Russian, and I believe German. There is no "confusion",
there is simply a series of e-mails in different languages. People
consider the individual(s) they most want to reach, their common
languages, their own language proficiency, the time available to
write in a language they don't know so well, how they feel that day,
etc. - then they just write, with great freedom and usually great
satisfaction to the intended recipients and others who get to see
things in agreeably exotic languages. This is a beautiful model for
the Main List, which thus far has been dominated by one Language -
English - to an excessive extent, causing those without even a fair
passive knowledge of English to feel completely excluded, and
therefore not to be here at all, which exacerbates the tendency to
have few non-English postings. (After all, you never promised
non-Anglophones translations of *everything* into their languages,
nor would that be feasible - so why not let them have something from
time to time just for them as a minority thing?)

Now, perhaps when you think of "confusion", you are thinking
*specifically* of scrambles to translate an interesting-looking
message after it is posted. Sometimes this might indeed justifiably
be called "confusion", I agree with you. However, the problem is that
people erroneously think translation necessary. On the Vizantia List
one rarely sees calls for translation, but just lets ununderstood
posts float by in peace.

But since you have proposed as Curatrix pairing people with
translators, if the original poster did not have his post translated
to English, and some English speaker was dying to have a translation
of something non-English that looked interesting, then the Anglophone
could ask you to provide a translator for the post out of Language X
and into English. Would you not do so? And would that not solve the
problem from the other end without forcing the writer to submit it
before posting to a translation?

Now, you may ask why someone would *want* to post to the list in his
own language without a translation, if he translation were freely
provided for by the Curatrix. Here are some possible reasons:

1) He may feel that the *forced* translation of his noble and
beloved mother tongue into English ("daughter of British imperialism
and American dollars and trashy pop culture") was patronising, even
if his original text were condescendingly allowed to appear too.
People tend to dislike what is forced upon them and this is a very
live issue and attitude in many parts of the world. (It may be
keeping some people off this list right now.)

2) He may be a Portuguese desiring to contact everybody in Portugal
and Brazil together, or a Latin American wishing to contact people in
Spain as well. Or any language minority among us not having its own
NR list at all. (The Gallia list accepts Canadian Francophones, so
that is not an example.) He might wish to correspond in that language
(perhaps privately afterwards, perhaps publicly) and not to bother
the users of the list with a translation about something that does
not particularly concern them.

3) He may feel constrained by his reluctance to heap urgent and
longish translation duties on an appointed translator-parner whom he
does not know well personally, and prefer to post in his own language
and just let those who can understand be his audience. I would
certainly feel that way if I were in his shoes.

4) He may not be able to read the English posts well enough to
actually benefit, and so does not know what is going on. He just
wants to see if he can find some people to correspond with
successfully in a language known to him in the medium of the Main
List, which should be the most inclusive list for all cives including
those who prefer to write in languages other than English.

5) Someone might wish to write in Latin, our esteemed national
Language. It is normal on the German and French lists to *officially*
accept Latin as a welcome altenative, even though it an option rarely
used. A translation out of our national language should not be
considered necessary as a matter of principle, one might think.

Those are some reasons why someone might prefer not to fuss about
with the red tape of forced translations. There may be others.

If we pursue a policy of openness and encouragement, there should be
a growing number of non-English preferers on the list to provide an
audience for more non-English posts. (As well as many multi-lingual
Anglophones.) In addition to a growing number of posts in Latin,
which seems to me highly desirable. And then we would see the
proportion of English dwindle to something approaching its actual
level of preference among our population, and non-English preferers
would feel more welcome here.

I think I have shown that your fundamenal premises that freedom
would breed confusion and that there is no necessity (or at least
desirability) to have untranslated posts to be less than fully true.

Politically speaking, I think that any magistrate issuing edicta or
rules that reduce a previouly-enjoyed freedom is in a ticklish
situation. A rule like you propose to limit what looks like a natural
right to simply express oneself in the language of one's choice seems
to many not to have the character of a mere administrative rule, but
to be a major policy decision about how we perceive our relation to
our main forum, and how Nova Roma would be projecting itself to
others as closed to the free and natural paricipation of
non-Anglophones. Such big policy decisions do not strike many of us
as suitable to be determined by one magistrate.

It is no good arguing that you were duely elected, etc., about which
there is no dispute. Actually I do not think that you warned us at
the time of the elections that you were going to take a measure like
this against free and unencumbered posting in language of choice and
in favour of compulsory translation. You were, therefore, not given a
mandate for that just because we voted for you, and many of us feel
that this also goes beyond he general task of a Curator Sermonis to
keep order and decency on the list. Had I known that you had such a
policy in mind at the time of the elections, I would have done my
best to arrange a competing candidate with more traditional and
permissive views on the matter, because I think it is of wide and
general importance. Not for any personal reasons, mind you, but
simply on this matter of policy.

Keeping the list free to all languages without red tape and without
giving an artificially privileged status to one language will not
solve our language problems, I grant you. That is why I proposed the
creation of a linguistic policy study committee to Vedius, in which I
envisaged your participation. However, an unencumbered,
linguistically free list would be a good start.

What the critics of this policy would like, Priscilla, is simply a
little changing of the wording so that here would would be no word
"unwelcome", but something gentler and more helpful like (in multiple
languages): "English is the most common language used for posting on
this list. If you do not feel comfortable using English, you may wish
to ask the Curatrix Sermonis to pair you with a volunteer translator
so that a translation will be able to accompany your original text to
make it intelligible to the largest number of list subscribers, and
so that you can have replies translated for you into your own
language if desired. Latin is also always welcome."

Is such a wording really so unacceptable to you? If you would make
some sort of minor alteration like that, you would have a consensus
on the matter with the electorate who voted for you, and that would
be better for everyone concerned, would it not? This list does belong
to all of us, after all.

I thank you for kindly listening.

Valete!

__________________________________
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:57:55 -0500
From: "JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Subject: RE: Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression

Salve,
>> 1) I never called her fascist. I said she used fascist methods.
Which is the issue. >>

This may very well be your opinion (baseless as it is) but is far
from true.

>> Fascist is not an insult it is a political position, which I
don't share. Communist is not an insult it is a poltical position
which I share..
Taleban is not an insult it is a religious and political position
which I don t share. Now if you feel that every political position
you don t share, or feel you don t share is perceived as an offense
in english, it would really be better to speak a language from a
multi-party country. >>

We all know why you chose the terms you did, and for you to try and
back-pedal now and claim they were not meant to be offensive is
simply cowardly. I, as a woman, take great offense at the reference
to the Taliban in particular. If you know anything about the
organization you will need no further explanation.

>> We now have a rule which prohibits non-english _speaking_
citizens to freely communicate on the main-list. >>

Ah, here is the crux of your argument. Allow me to correct you.
Posts from non-English speakers are MORE than welcome here. Heck,
posts in MORE than one language are MORE than welcome here. As a
global community I take great pleasure in fostering input from as
many individuals as we can. That *only* requirement is that a
translation of posts into English be provided so that the vast
majority will be able to understand, communicate with and
welcome the non-English speaker. This is fascism?

>> How the hell are you expecting 2 non-english speking citizens to
contact each other ? Passing through superior authority ?
(Propraetor, Curatrix). At best it is "Democratic Centralism"
(communist way of communicatin between the cells) at worst
Military/Fascist communication and yes for me they are the
same. That is a problem. >>

This brings up another of your pet fears.......censorship. I have
stated publicly, and will do so here again, that translations are
just that: translations. "Yo soy una chica" will be rendered as "I
am a girl" on this list. Nothing added, nothing changed, and no
"secretive approval by a superior authority" is in the works here.
Posts by non-English speakers are subject to NO censorship. In
reality, if I *were* the power-mad tyrant you ( and a few
others)would have some believe, it would be an easy enough thing
to moderate the entire list, requiring ALL posts pass through me
before appearing. That is the farthest thing from what I swore an
oath to do. To continue to assert that translations are somehow
subject to some scrutiny or extra requirements is untrue.

>> Now our consul expressed his position: the idea comes from an
political opponent, consequently it is bad and will not be done. Is
this really politics in the best interest of NovaRoma ? >>

Let me present some facts for you, as well as one or two others
whose comments lead me to believe this is necessary. The Consul does
not make list policy. The Consul is not the duly elected magistrate
in charge of running this list. He is my husband, true. He is
opinionated, true. But make no mistake. I, as Curatrix Sermonem, am
responsible for this list and the smooth running thereof. You are
free to think what you will of my husband's politics, but do not make
the mistake of confusing us as being of one mind on all issues.

>> I really didn t see ANY argument explaining why this is GOOD for
NovaRoma, I saw some arguments of our Curatrix explaining why she
feels it is not SO bad. >>

This is simply untrue. I have stated repeatedly why I feel this
policy is best for this list. Let me do so again: like many issues
in life, there are several sides.

A) All English, no exceptions. I did not go this route because it
WOULD be exclusionary and unfair to non-English speakers. There is
no need or call to prohibit or exclude all except those who can write
in English.

B) All languages, no limits, no format: I did not go this route
because it leads to unnecessary confusion. Going this route leads to
a poster sending a message with NO guarantee that anyone will take it
upon themselves to translate, with no guarantees that IF someone does
translate that they will do so accurately, and with potentially no
way for the original poster to comprehend the responses his or her
post gets once(if) it has been translated. This policy would lead to
some extra posts, but that is not the primary reason for my not going
this way. The chaos and uncertainty is the primary factor against
this "free-for-all"/"Tower of Babel" approach.

C) All languages welcome, as long as English translation is
provided. This choice allows all posters to post. NO ONE is banned
or punished for not being able to write in English. There is no
penalty for posting in non-English the first time out. In the rare
instances where an individual subscribes to the list but either
cannot or will not post in English, translators have volunteered to
help them to post. These posts will not necessarily excise the
original language. As has been seen here by Senator
Vado, for example, who posts edicts in both Latin and English, dual
language posts are MORE than welcome. This choice also guarantees
that the poster has someone to work with in ensuring their ideas get
through and that any replies they may need translated back into their
native tongue will also be taken care of. There is no harm done in
this policy. No one's freedoms are being taken away and no one is
being censored. In point of fact, this choice may very well
encourage those who are insecure in their English-writing skills to
seek out a partner to help them jump in and participate more. This
compromise actually benefits the poster, the translators and the
nation as a whole as more members may choose to step in
and participate.

>> I don't agree but understand. >>

I don't believe you do understand, given your misconceptions above.
Hopefully now you will have a clearer view of things however.

>> But why is the "unwelcomness" of non-english posts GOOD ? >>

Here it is again: ALL languages are welcome here, provided a
translation into English is provided. That is a good thing. It is
good for the poster
a) his/her point is understood and is able to be replied to and
b)he/she is still able to show national pride by using their own
native language if they desire/need. Who is being harmed here?

>> Is it enough for us to have rules that are not too bad ? Why
setting rules that are just not too bad ? >>

Whether you agree with it or not, this policy is intended to be of
benefit to the members of this list. If you truly believe I have
time enough on my hands to dream up rules with no basis and for no
reason, I would invite you to spend a day in my life. I act as I see
is best for the list as a whole. Believe me when I say that I read
every post every day and that every opinion IS taken into account.
Just because I do not change policy to accommodate every opinion
does not mean you haven't been heard.

>> Is n t it easier to let the list free ? >>

No, in point of fact it would not be easier to have a list without
rules. All that is being done with this policy is that posts will be
presented in a way so that the maximum number of members can
understand it. For some, that might very well be in the "native"
tongue, for others it will be in the English translation. That
freedom, freedom to speak and be understood, is
the purpose of this list.

>> this has become a problem beyond reason or common sense, just
a problem of showing power. Showing power instead of proving your
point is a fascistic attitude. >

This is far from a power play on my part. Let's be honest....if
this were merely a bid for me to flex my muscles I would not be
tolerating the kind of name-calling I have been subject to by you.
If this were about "power" I have the "power" to end this entire
discussion. I will not do so. Because, you see, this is not about
ego for me. This is not about making rules for no good reason. This
is not about me making an effort to see how many non-English speakers
I can offend oppress and alienate. This is, whether you choose to
believe it or not, a policy I have thought long and hard on
and genuinely feel is in the best interest of the list as a whole.
Does that mean some might disagree? Maybe so, and that is fine. Does
this mean it will make every person happy? No, probably not, but
that is the way of the world. In a perfect world, perhaps, we would
all be 100% content with 100% of the rules. In this world, however,
I need to do what I feel is right for the list as a whole.

The very fact that this policy does not hurt anyone, welcomes all
languages and, in fact, might serve to encourage some to post now
that they see assistance is available, seems to be totally overlooked
by some....yourself included....who seem driven to prove that this is
yet another "power-mad-magistrate-out-to-oppress-the-little guy." I
am not such a magistrate. I am merely a dedicated Curatrix doing as
I feel is best for reasons which have already been explained.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonem

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, Aedilis Plebeius Novae Romae
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius;
Musaeus Collegii Polyhymniae Sodalitatis Musarum
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________

Subject:	[novaroma] To You service!
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:18:53 +0100

Salve Illustrus Aedilis Plebeius Marcus Apollonius Formosanus!

I'll start with a short introduction. I hope that You will overlook my weak
English.

My name is Christer Edling, known in Nova Roma as Caeso Fabius
Quintilianus, I live i the north of Sweden (Provincia Thule), I have been a
citizen in Nova Roma since 2000 / 08 / 26 . In real life I am a teacher i
Social science, Geography, Religion and History for kids of 12 - 16 years.
I also am a hobby historian with the speciallities in the Napoleonic era,
Dark Age Britian/Arthurian myth and the Roman Republic and Empire. I also
am a dedicated roleplayer, breeder of saluki hounds and I have a deep
interest of horses (Arabian, Andalusian, Connemara and Icelandic). My age
is 50 and I have one daughter and live as a single, I work part-time with
my dog boarding house. Still I hope to have some time left over for Nova
Roma since I during the last year have left some positions within some of
my hobby organisations.

I have always read about the Res Publica, I found a favourite author in
Colleen McCullough. Her "Masters of Rome" series is so impresive. The Roman
Republic stood for something important then and I have always felt as a
Roman, so when I found Nova Roma I felt the that I had found my home.

I have been moderately active on the NR main list since my beginning. You
should know that I have some disadvantages. I am not a native English
speaker and I don't have any knowledge of proper latin. I read, speak and
write German at a novice level and when it comes to Spanish I am even less
fluent. I have travelled through most of Northern and Northwestern Europe,
I have been to the wonderful Greek Island of Korfu and I have visited
Israel three times. I am not primarly a economic science person, my
knowledge is limited to what a typical organization person has to know
according to Swedish rules and common sense. I think I'll stop there,
You'll have to ask to get to know more.

As You know I have been assigned to You as your Quaestor. I want us to be
honest to each other, I will strive to do my duty to the Res Publica and to
You as Aedilis Plebeius. Privately in the modern world I follow a Leftist
policy, in Nova Roma I take a moderate stand point, as I see it. I have
found a few personal friends in varying "camps" among whom I count Your son
Honorable Legatus Sextus Apollonius Draco. On the other hand I will not in
any circumstances in the near future join any faction. I hope and think
that You will respect my integrity.

Now over to our work for the Res Publica. I would like to know in what way
I can be of service to You as a Quaestor, feeling that You understand some
of my short-comings and the limits of time. Still I'll do my best!

Let's hope that we will have a prosperous cooperation!

Until NeXT ;-)

Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Assensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus
cives Provinia Thule
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Majority and Rules
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:05:12 +0100

Salve Omnes and especially Salve Illustrus Senator and Quaestor Marcus
Minucius Audens!

Illustrus Senator and Quaestor Marcus Minucius Audens wrote:
>I too have labored mightly over the posts on this list referring to the
>"Fascist Magistrates" and those who are choking the freedom from our
>state with thier greedy and grasping hands. As a member of that
>"unholy" crew for the past years, I have been somewhat surprised to see
>that label, in general, applied to me, my thoughts and my actions. As a
>result, I have tried to make sense of these comments and accusations
>against those who seemingly serve our Republic, under Oath and Law, to
>the best of our ability with the dedication to provide for the "Will of
>the Majority" and to insure the "Rights of the Minority."

Dear Senator and Questor;
It took me a while to understand the irony in this message as I am no
native English speaking cives. I can see the sense in your thinking, still
I can not even think that there is anyone so unjust that they would put any
label of intolerance on You. For me it is OK to stand up for your opinion
and to fight for it as long as You doesn't get personal. For me You are the
incarnation of justice, fairness and tolerance! You know I would defend
your honor as my own! I am not easy to gain as an enemy, but I try to be
easy to get as a friend.

But

Hereby I Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, Quaestor of Nova Roma declare that
anyone who insults the Illustrus Senator and Quaestor Marcus Minucius
Audens also insults me and must be prepared to deal with my anger!

Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Assensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus
cives Provinia Thule
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

Subject:	[novaroma] To You service! Wrong address!
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:15:12 +0100

Salve Omnes!

I am sorry that I sen my private e-mail to the Illustrus Aedilis Plebeius
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus to the main list and took up space and time
for You all. But as I stand by every word, I hope there is no harm?

Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Assensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus
cives Provinia Thule
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

Subject:	[novaroma] Language ...
From:	Mike Macnair <MikeMacnair@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:18:39 -0500

Salvete!

There's an odd feature of the discussion of the language of the list, that
there appears to be no substantive difference but only (!) differences over
(a) the language of the policy and (b) the language of the criticisms of
the policy.

(It's an interesting coincidence that at the same time a parallel
discussion of the power of words and symbols (on the "Rules of Magick") is
also running...)

(a) The language of the policy. It is common ground, as far as I can see,
that cives will in general want their posts to be understood and that those
who post in languages other than English, without providing translation,
should be pointed to help with translation. It is also common ground that
there is no absolute bar or rule against people posting in languages other
than English, since (i) the list is not moderated and (ii) this is not the
policy stated by the Curatrix Sermonem.
The problem, then, appears to be driven by the fact that the form
of words used (posts in languages other than English and without
translation are "unwelcome") suggests a stronger rule than is in fact in
place, with the result that several cives have confused it with an actual
bar.

(b) The language of the criticisms. IMO this was paranoid, inappropriate,
and bound to inflame discussion. But what leads to paranoia? The difficulty
is that "roman-ness" could mean a form of patriotism of the USA as a
Republic at least partially modelled on Rome, and this sort of "roman-ness"
is unattractive to at least some of us and off the point of the list. We
have run across this problem already, particularly in relation to the usage
of "Democracy" and "Republic". We had a debate before (about a year ago, or
perhaps more?) about whether English was "the new Latin" (again, I think,
triggered by non-English posts on the list) which ran into the same issue.
The use of the word "unwelcome" seems to have triggered a reaction
ultimately based on these issues rather than on the issue of the language
of the list itself.

IMO precisely because NR is at present overwhelmingly American, we need to
be as sensitive as possible to the impressions which we might convey to
non-Americans if we are to grow substantially outside the US. I would
therefore prefer softer language than that used in the Curatrix Sermonem's
original post, though the outlines of the practical policy seem perfectly
sensible.

Valete,

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

Subject:	[novaroma] Languages: personal conclusions
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:03:52 +0100

Salvete Quirites Novae Romae,

First, allow me to say that this discussion is becoming more unreasonable and destructive posting by posting. This is not one person's fault in particular, unlike what many think or say. Also, it's getting personal, yes, which is never a good thing. Also, what should have been just a minor list setting has blown up out of proportion, as some have tried to point out here. To no avail, so it seems.

Second, I think Consul Vedius and the Curatrix are overlooking the fact that at least two persons who objected (or proposed an amendment) to this regulation are allophones. If this measure was taken for these people, and they don't agree, it might be better to change/amend it.

Also, even though I can imagine one can get offended by words such as "fascism", the Gens Apollonia wasn't offended anywhere near as much by the Deformosanus troll, which actually started this whole thing, and I decided not to give it my personal/emotional attention. A reasonable argument can and will never be won by bringing in emotions, or replying in a very emotional way. I have made that mistake, too. I would therefore like to ask the Curatrix (again) to be a little less adamant and less agitated when receiving criticism.

Another thing which I find a personal mistake is to pinpoint this issue down to an individual whim of Formosanus, as if he is the only person so far who objected to this (which is simply not true). The constructive elements in his posting have been carefully ignored, or were replied to in the manner like "ok, that's your opinion". Is it °really° asked so much to ask that people posting in foreign languages can °request° a translation, but don't necessarily °have° to when they don't want it? And as Manius Villius has pointed out, this regulation concerns like 0,5% of the e-mail traffic, so what's the big deal?


Moge de meertaligheid van Nova Roma bloeien in all haar vrijheid en glorie :-).


Valete bene,
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Scriba Aedilis Plebis,
Lupercus Fabianus
Coryphaeus Sodalitatis Musarum,
Musaeus Collegii Eratus,
Musaeus Collegii Uraniae
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
--**--
Novaromain? Parlez-vous français? Cliquez ici!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_GalliaBelgicaF
Nieuwromein? Spreekt u Nederlands? Klik hier!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_BelgicaBataviaD
Novaroman? Interested in philosophy? Click here!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_Philosophy
Novaroman? Interested in politics? Click here!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_DignitasForum


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Language ...
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:52:11 -0500

Salvete;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Macnair [mailto:MikeMacnair@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 15:19

> The problem, then, appears to be driven by the fact that the form
> of words used (posts in languages other than English and without
> translation are "unwelcome") suggests a stronger rule than is in fact in
> place, with the result that several cives have confused it with an actual
> bar.

> The use of the word "unwelcome" seems to have triggered a reaction
> ultimately based on these issues rather than on the issue of the language
> of the list itself.

Just to remind you; I was the one who used the word "unwelcome" in the
context of posts sent sans English translation, not the curatrix sermo. The
word "unwelcome" doesn't appear in the official policy on this subject which
reads as follows:

"XI. All posts to the list should be accompanied by an English translation
if they are written in another language. If you are unable to write in
English, or uncomfortable posting in English, please let me know and I will
be more than happy to facilitate your pairing with a translator who can help
you to do so. Posts in multiple languages are MORE than welcome, as long as
an English translation is included somewhere therein. Please note there is
no penalty for violating this policy on a "first time" basis, as it is
assumed that anyone doing so is simply in need of assistance and not
consciously choosing to violate list policy." (From the official welcome
letter sent to all new list members)

Sounds pretty reasonable and friendly to me!

Honestly, if your problem was with that one word, you could have bothered to
check the official policy, or even just asked!

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

"For Gracchus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
bad one." (Crassus in the film "Spartacus")

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Thu, 08 Feb 2001 19:04:53 -0200

Procopious wrote:
>
> Lucius Mauricius Procopious Omnes SPD
> I would like to ask two questions concerning linguistic expression. #1 How
> far does it extend? May I use any kind of speech I see fit? Am I welcome to
> share a nasty limerick on the main list? "There once was a man from
> Nantucket....." :} If you support the idea of allowing any language a
> person chooses, do you support any topic a person chooses? I have an
> interest in ancient Sparta, may I address this on the main list? How far do
> you want to extend the expression of linguistic freedom? #2 If we encourage
> multiple languages on the main list then what is the purpose of all the
> other language specific lists? Should we enforce an "any language you
> choose" policy on the main list and simply discontinue the other lists?
>

No, but why not creating a AmericaBorealis list for the US
macronationals.
A main list for everybody, a local list for each.
The local lists are in their own langiages and for thei own local
problems.

The actual trend is to treat the main list as the AmericaBorealis list,
and
this what is creating all this trouble.

Manius Villius Limitanus

Subject:	[novaroma] The Cursus Honorum
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:43:19 -0500

Fl Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.

One of the issues that came up in last year's campaign was that of the
Cursus Honorum; the Way of Honor which, in ancient Rome, dictated the career
path for public servants in office. Historically, there were specific ages
before which one was not considered suitable for office, and a specific
order in which certain magistracies were to be held.

Now, obviously given our relatively small population, lack of experienced
magistrates to fill higher offices, and relative youth, we cannot and should
not institute the full Cursus Honorum now. However, I think that we can make
a few baby-steps in the right direction, to guarantee that our magistrates
all possess a certain basic standard of familiarity with our society and
political systems.

I would make two suggestions along these lines.

First, magistrates must be citizens in good standing for at least one year
before they can take office. The limit would be six months for the
vigintsexviri, and it would not apply to scribes, provincial or local
officers, etc. This is just a common-sense precaution to make sure our
magistrates have some familiarity with Nova Roma and her ways, but doesn't
cut anyone out from public service in their first year (they could, for
example, serve as a scribe, or legatus, etc.).

Second, no one may serve as Censor, Consul, or Praetor without having
previously being elected to some other magistracy. (Note that this would
preclude someone from being appointed, say, Consul in October and then
running for Censor; appointed positions wouldn't count.) As these are the
highest offices in the Cursus Honorum, it makes sense to have them staffed
by individuals who are guaranteed to have some prior experience in
government, with some sense of obligation to the people who elected them.

Any thoughts?

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

"For Gracchus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
bad one." (Crassus in the film "Spartacus")

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Cursus Honorum
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 08 Feb 2001 12:43:00 -0800

Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:

> Fl Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.
>
> One of the issues that came up in last year's campaign was that of the
> Cursus Honorum; the Way of Honor which, in ancient Rome, dictated the career
> path for public servants in office. Historically, there were specific ages
> before which one was not considered suitable for office, and a specific
> order in which certain magistracies were to be held.
>
> Now, obviously given our relatively small population, lack of experienced
> magistrates to fill higher offices, and relative youth, we cannot and should
> not institute the full Cursus Honorum now. However, I think that we can make
> a few baby-steps in the right direction, to guarantee that our magistrates
> all possess a certain basic standard of familiarity with our society and
> political systems.
>
> I would make two suggestions along these lines.
>
> First, magistrates must be citizens in good standing for at least one year
> before they can take office. The limit would be six months for the
> vigintsexviri, and it would not apply to scribes, provincial or local
> officers, etc. This is just a common-sense precaution to make sure our
> magistrates have some familiarity with Nova Roma and her ways, but doesn't
> cut anyone out from public service in their first year (they could, for
> example, serve as a scribe, or legatus, etc.).
>
> Second, no one may serve as Censor, Consul, or Praetor without having
> previously being elected to some other magistracy. (Note that this would
> preclude someone from being appointed, say, Consul in October and then
> running for Censor; appointed positions wouldn't count.) As these are the
> highest offices in the Cursus Honorum, it makes sense to have them staffed
> by individuals who are guaranteed to have some prior experience in
> government, with some sense of obligation to the people who elected them.
>
> Any thoughts?

Personally I like it but as a suggestion, I think you should drop Praetor from
item two. :) I see your reasoning..but if someone is knowledgeable on
laws..they should feel free to start their political career as Praetor.

Excellent suggestions Consul Germanicus!

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Weather report
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:54:39 -0600

Salvete Procopi et omnes!

I'm currently in Chicago, but have heard back from the motherland
of America Boreoccidentalis that things are still moving along.

Btw, I haven't sent anything out to the main list regarding our
provincial gathering in Portland but please feel free to do so
if you like. Take care!

Bene valete,
-Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: Procopious [mailto:procopious@--------]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 11:46 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Weather report


Lucius Mauricius Procopious Omnes SPD
It's snowing here in Am.Bor. (macronational Washington state) An unusual
occurrance for us. For those who are interested in what's happening here,
weather or otherwise, please follow the link below to subscribe to our
Provincial list. I'm not sure if I missed a post or if none of my Provincial
neighbors mentioned our recent get together. In case it hasn't been told
I'll let you all know we recently had a meeting in Portland. It was great to
meet everyone. So, for those cives in this area, please sign up,
communicate, get involved.

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

Join the America Boreoccidentalis Mailing List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason
for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died
c.560s]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 8:52 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Digest No 1221 Re, Greek


> Salvete et salutem omnibus
>
> Thank you for this timely post Druse! (my, "me too!" portion of the post)
>
> Myself, I like to see Latin posted, especially when it is accompanied with
> an English translation. I also like to see other languages posted too, but
> if they do not have a translation they are of very little use to me and I
> wonder why they are being posted here when nearly all of us use English as
> our first language. Really, even those who are arguing for "Freedom of
> Linguistic Expression" are doing so in English!
> Having said that, I don't see a problem if someone posts a civilized
> question or statement in a language other than English in the hope that
> someone can and will translate it. Something that I have always felt was a
> civilized thing to do was to assist one another. Isn't this why we are
here?
> To help each other form a society based on Roman virtues and culture.
>
> Most of you were not citizens when I was Praetor Urbanus and I proposed a
> lex to make Latin and English the "official languages of Nova Roma". This
> was something that I thought would soon become an "issue" and as has been
> shown this 'topic' of language is recurrent. The proposal was
misunderstood
> as an attempt to "outlaw" other languages, but in fact was only done so
that
> there would be no (or less)confusion when 'official' Legis or other
> documents were posted. I believed that they should be posted in, at least,
> Latin and English. At that time I used the term "Latin and/or English"
> because Nova Roma did not have the number of citizens who were fluent in
> Latin that we have today, but I knew that the time would soon come when we
> could do translations. I thought that this was something that the
> Latinitas@-------- Sodalitas was going to do, but I haven't seem much
> progress thus far.
>
> As for the policy issued by the elected Curator Sermo Priscilla Vedia
> Serena, I say we are a society ruled by Laws and she has issued a ruling.
> While I don't agree 100% with her decision, I support her 110% and I'm
> angered at the personal attacks she has endured. Desist! We are civilized,
> are we not?
>
> Mars nos protegas!
> Valete, Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:56:37 -0800 (PST)
> From: "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
> Subject: Greek
>
> Salvete,
>
> When Roma was a small town on the Tiber, the Greeks
> were busy founding cities from the Pillars of Hercules
> to the Black Sea. The Empire of Alexander didn't last
> long, but the states that came into being when it
> broke up continued the spread of Greek civilization
> and the Greek language. When Roma became a great
> power, she found herself in a world dominated by the
> Greek language. The Romans were a very pragmatic
> people, they didn't seek to impose their Latin
> language on the areas they conquered, they learned to
> speak Greek.
>
> In Ancient times Greek was the international language.
> Everyone who wanted to take part in a culture greater
> than that of their city learned Greek as a second
> language. Most Greeks, however refused to bother
> learning a second language and looked down on those
> who failed to learn their tongue. The Word "Barbarian"
> originally meant someone who didn't know Greek, who
> barked like a dog (Bar Bar). Barbarian later acquired
> the meaning of "Uncivilized" because anyone who didn't
> speak Greek was considered to be uncivilized.
>
> Nova Roma finds herself in the same position as
> Ancient Roma as far as language goes. We have come
> upon a world that the language of an earlier power has
> become the dominant international tongue. English has
> the same status today that Greek had for the Ancient
> Romans. Unfortuntally many of us who speak English as
> their native tongue have an attitude similar to that
> of the ancient Greeks. We all ready speak the
> international language, why bother learning a
> "barbarian" tongue?
>
> Which brings me to the Nova Roma mail list. In a
> normal mailing list or newsgroup it's considered a
> violation of the rules of "nettiquite" to post to the
> group in a language other than the language of the
> group. It's considered allmost as bad as spamming the
> list. It's looked on as very bad manners. However this
> is NOT a normal mailing list. This is the place Nova
> Romans receive their official news of upcoming events.
> A Citizen may know enough English to get a feeling of
> whats going on, but lack the skills to phrase a
> question in English to get the information they need.
> I see no problem in allowing these citizens to post a
> reply asking for help in their native language. These
> kinds of posts should be fairly infrequent. The only
> time I would see a reason for moderation would be if
> it developed into a conversation between two or three
> citizens, addressed to each other, rather than the
> group as a whole. Then it would be time for them to be
> encouraged to take their private conversation to
> regular e-mail instead of posting to the group (as
> should be done with English threads that turn into a
> private conversation).
>
> Valete, Lucius Sicinius Drusus
>
>
>
>
>
>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Cursus Honorum
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Thu, 08 Feb 2001 21:54:43 -0200

Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:
>
> Fl Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.
>
> One of the issues that came up in last year's campaign was that of the
> Cursus Honorum; the Way of Honor which, in ancient Rome, dictated the career
> path for public servants in office. Historically, there were specific ages
> before which one was not considered suitable for office, and a specific
> order in which certain magistracies were to be held.
>
> Now, obviously given our relatively small population, lack of experienced
> magistrates to fill higher offices, and relative youth, we cannot and should
> not institute the full Cursus Honorum now. However, I think that we can make
> a few baby-steps in the right direction, to guarantee that our magistrates
> all possess a certain basic standard of familiarity with our society and
> political systems.
>
> I would make two suggestions along these lines.
>
> First, magistrates must be citizens in good standing for at least one year
> before they can take office. The limit would be six months for the
> vigintsexviri, and it would not apply to scribes, provincial or local
> officers, etc. This is just a common-sense precaution to make sure our
> magistrates have some familiarity with Nova Roma and her ways, but doesn't
> cut anyone out from public service in their first year (they could, for
> example, serve as a scribe, or legatus, etc.).
>
> Second, no one may serve as Censor, Consul, or Praetor without having
> previously being elected to some other magistracy. (Note that this would
> preclude someone from being appointed, say, Consul in October and then
> running for Censor; appointed positions wouldn't count.) As these are the
> highest offices in the Cursus Honorum, it makes sense to have them staffed
> by individuals who are guaranteed to have some prior experience in
> government, with some sense of obligation to the people who elected them.
>
> Any thoughts?
>

This seems a very good position. Personnaly I think that for censor we
could even be more restrictive, asking for a previous curule position.

This keeps the way open for people which don t like the Quaestor office
(we had some remarks in this directions during the elections) by running
first for aedile / tribune


Manius Villius Limitanus


> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
> "For Gracchus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
> bad one." (Crassus in the film "Spartacus")
>
> email: germanicus@--------
> AIM: Flavius Vedius
> www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
>