Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Language ...
From:	"Natasha" <natashaaiken@-------->
Date:	Fri, 09 Feb 2001 00:51:46 -0000

Salve,

> Just to remind you; I was the one who used the word "unwelcome" in
the
> context of posts sent sans English translation, not the curatrix
sermo.

I had actually noticed this, since it is your less then accurate
wording that has cause so much fuss perhaps you should be a bit more
careful what you post to the list in future?

Just a suggestion.

vale,

Natalia



--- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...>
wrote:
> Salvete;
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mike Ma--------r [mailto:MikeMa--------r@--------]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 15:19
>
> > The problem, then, appears to be driven by the fact that
the form
> > of words used (posts in languages other than English and without
> > translation are "unwelcome") suggests a stronger rule than is in
fact in
> > place, with the result that several cives have confused it with
an actual
> > bar.
>
> > The use of the word "unwelcome" seems to have triggered a reaction
> > ultimately based on these issues rather than on the issue of the
language
> > of the list itself.
>
> Just to remind you; I was the one who used the word "unwelcome" in
the
> context of posts sent sans English translation, not the curatrix
sermo. The
> word "unwelcome" doesn't appear in the official policy on this
subject which
> reads as follows:
>
> "XI. All posts to the list should be accompanied by an English
translation
> if they are written in another language. If you are unable to
write in
> English, or uncomfortable posting in English, please let me know
and I will
> be more than happy to facilitate your pairing with a translator who
can help
> you to do so. Posts in multiple languages are MORE than welcome,
as long as
> an English translation is included somewhere therein. Please note
there is
> no penalty for violating this policy on a "first time" basis, as it
is
> assumed that anyone doing so is simply in need of assistance and not
> consciously choosing to violate list policy." (From the official
welcome
> letter sent to all new list members)
>
> Sounds pretty reasonable and friendly to me!
>
> Honestly, if your problem was with that one word, you could have
bothered to
> check the official policy, or even just asked!
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
> "For Gracchus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and
not such a
> bad one." (Crassus in the film "Spartacus")
>
> email: germa--------s@-------- > AIM: Flavius Vedius
> www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Thu, 08 Feb 2001 23:02:07 -0200

JusticeCMO wrote:
>
> Salve,
> >> 1) I never called her fascist. I said she used fascist methods. Which
> is
> the issue. >>
>
> This may very well be your opinion (baseless as it is) but is far from
> true.
>
> >> Fascist is not an insult it is a political position, which I don t
> share. Communist is not an insult it is a poltical position which I share.
> Taleban is not an insult it is a religious and political position which
> I don t share. Now if you feel that every political position you don t
> share, or feel you don t share is perceived as an offense in english, it
> would really
> be better to speak a language from a multi-party country. >>
>
> We all know why you chose the terms you did, and for you to try and
> back-pedal now and claim they were not meant to be offensive is simply
> cowardly. I, as a woman, take great offense at the reference to the Taliban
> in particular. If you know anything about the organization you will need no
> further explanation.
>

Did you perceive that I said I was communist ? How could I use this as
an offense ?

For the fascism. It seems it has been demonized in your macronation.
Here the Getulist (local version of fascsim in the 30') party (PTB) is
still here, is in the government support base (well often), and fascism
is a political option.
In Italy the fascist party (MSI) runs several large cities and was part
of the government in th 90', again fascism is a current political option
there. Not an offense, just an option.
Now what is fascism: a modern (XXth century) recreation of Imperial
Rome. Is this a risk for our modern recreation of Republican Rome ? I
fear it.

For the Taliban, another dictature of a large part of society on the
rest. I as much as you am profundly against the options they took of
recreating a mythical 7th century moslem state. I certainly as you
noticed, didn t mean that you, as a women, adhere to their ideology.

> >> We now have a rule which prohibits non-english _speaking_ citizens to
> freely communicate on the main-list. >>
>
> Ah, here is the crux of your argument. Allow me to correct you. Posts
> from non-English speakers are MORE than welcome here. Heck, posts in MORE
> than one language are MORE than welcome here. As a global community I take
> great pleasure in fostering input from as many individuals as we can. That
> *only* requirement is that a translation of posts into English be provided
> so that the vast majority will be able to understand, communicate with and
> welcome the non-English speaker. This is fascism?
>

No this is not fascism, it is just unneeded.

> >> How the hell are you expecting 2 non-english speking citizens to
> contact
> each other ? Passing through superior authority ? (Propraetor, Curatrix).
> At best it
> is "Democratic Centralism" (communist way of communicatin between the
> cells) at worst Military/Fascist communication and yes for me they are the
> same. That is a problem. >>
>
> This brings up another of your pet fears.......censorship. I have stated
> publicly, and will do so here again, that translations are just that:
> translations. "Yo soy una chica" will be rendered as "I am a girl" on this
> list. Nothing added, nothing changed, and no "secretive approval by a
> superior authority" is in the works here. Posts by non-English speakers are
> subject to NO censorship. In reality, if I *were* the power-mad tyrant you
> ( and a few others)would have some believe, it would be an easy enough thing
> to moderate the entire list, requiring ALL posts pass through me before
> appearing. That is the farthest thing from what I swore an oath to do. To
> continue to assert that translations are somehow subject to some scrutiny or
> extra requirements is untrue.
>

I didn t say that this will be censorship, I said that rules allows for
the censorship. I even said that while a "Philosopher King" rules (would
be you)
every thing is fine but when a "Tyrant" (not you) gets the position, he
will
have the mechanism in hands to use censure.
If I thought YOU were a tyrant I would not be trying to convince you to
change the rule, I would just leave.


> >> Now our consul expressed his position: the idea comes from an
> political
> opponent, consequently it is bad and will not be done. Is this really
> politics in the best interest of NovaRoma ? >>
>
> Let me present some facts for you, as well as one or two others whose
> comments lead me to believe this is necessary. The Consul does not make
> list policy. The Consul is not the duly elected magistrate in charge of
> running this list. He is my husband, true. He is opinionated, true. But
> make no mistake. I, as Curatrix Sermonem, am responsible for this list and
> the smooth running thereof. You are free to think what you will of my
> husband's politics, but do not make the mistake of confusing us as being of
> one mind on all issues.
>

I did not know about that (that you were related outside NovaRoma). I
addressed only his post here, not your position.

> >> I really didn t see ANY argument explaining why this is GOOD for
> NovaRoma, I saw some arguments of our Curatrix explaining why she feels it
> is not SO bad. >>
>

Here, you can notice that I made a difference between your arguments,
and his absence of arguments.


> This is simply untrue. I have stated repeatedly why I feel this policy is
> best for this list. Let me do so again: like many issues in life, there are
> several sides.
>
> A) All English, no exceptions. I did not go this route because it WOULD
> be exclusionary and unfair to non-English speakers. There is no need or
> call to prohibit or exclude all except those who can write in English.
>
> B) All languages, no limits, no format: I did not go this route because
> it leads to unnecessary confusion. Going this route leads to a poster
> sending a message with NO guarantee that anyone will take it upon themselves
> to translate, with no guarantees that IF someone does translate that they
> will do so accurately,

No guaranties, but a high probability, and even better in my eyes, a
high probability that we will get several translations which when read
together will give a mare faithfull image of the original thinking. No
unique translator can be trusted, not
because he is malevolent but because each time you translate you loose
some nuances of your thoughts and sometimes the most important feeling
that a word should pass for you is lost in the translation. Look at the
Republic/Democracy thing these 2 words seem to have a totally different
meaning in the USA and outside of USA. If I translate them to french by
Republique and Democracie (or seemingly to any other language) they will
no more mean what the original US-english speaking meant by opposing one
to the other, it will really be the like the "not blond, long". The same
thing will/can happen thousand times in any translation.

> and with potentially no way for the original poster
> to comprehend the responses his or her post gets once(if) it has been
> translated. This policy would lead to some extra posts, but that is not the
> primary reason for my not going this way. The chaos and uncertainty is the
> primary factor against this "free-for-all"/"Tower of Babel" approach.
>

That s another point we strongly disagree. Since the main/preferred
language of this list is/(should stay IMO) english, it is quite obvious
that the subscribers of this list understand english, but for allophones
it is not because you understand a language that you are able to write
it. The ones that don t understand english are not on this list.

> C) All languages welcome, as long as English translation is provided.
> This choice allows all posters to post. NO ONE is banned or punished for
> not being able to write in English. There is no penalty for posting in
> non-English the first time out. In the rare instances where an individual
> subscribes to the list but either cannot or will not post in English,
> translators have volunteered to help them to post. These posts will not
> necessarily excise the original language. As has been seen here by Senator
> Vado, for example, who posts edicts in both Latin and English, dual language
> posts are MORE than welcome. This choice also guarantees that the poster
> has someone to work with in ensuring their ideas get through and that any
> replies they may need translated back into their native tongue will also be
> taken care of. There is no harm done in this policy. No one's freedoms are
> being taken away and no one is being censored. In point of fact, this
> choice may very well encourage those who are insecure in their
> English-writing skills to seek out a partner to help them jump in and
> participate more. This compromise actually benefits the poster, the
> translators and the nation as a whole as more members may choose to step in
> and participate.
>
> >> I don t agree but understand. >>
>
> I don't believe you do understand, given your misconceptions above.
> Hopefully now you will have a clearer view of things however.
>
> >> But why is the "unwelcomness" of non-english posts GOOD ? >>
>
> Here it is again: ALL languages are welcome here, provided a translation
> into English is provided. That is a good thing. It is good for the poster
> a) his/her point is understood and is able to be replied to and b)he/she is
> still able to show national pride by using their own native language if they
> desire/need. Who is being harmed here?
>

I never saw it as a problem of national pride, our nation here is
NovaRoma.

> >> Is it enough for us to have rules that are not too bad ? Why setting
> rules that are just not too bad ? >>
>
> Whether you agree with it or not, this policy is intended to be of benefit
> to the members of this list. If you truly believe I have time enough on my
> hands to dream up rules with no basis and for no reason, I would invite you
> to spend a day in my life. I act as I see is best for the list as a whole.
> Believe me when I say that I read every post every day and that every
> opinion IS taken into account. Just because I do not change policy to
> accommodate every opinion does not mean you haven't been heard.
>

I acknowledge this, and thank you for listening. And it s exactly
because I think/feel that you are listening that I try to convince you.

> >> Is n t it easier to let the list free ? >>
>
> No, in point of fact it would not be easier to have a list without rules.
> All that is being done with this policy is that posts will be presented in a
> way so that the maximum number of members can understand it. For some, that
> might very well be in the "native" tongue, for others it will be in the
> English translation. That freedom, freedom to speak and be understood, is
> the purpose of this list.
>

Why not appointing a designated translator that picks the post ON THE
LIST and translates it after being posted ? You get your official
translation, we get the
free posting. Everybody understands the post, nobody feels a cripple
(sorry I don t find the correct word this is too strong) for having to
ask for help.

> >> this has become a problem beyond reason or common sense, just a
> problem of showing power. Showing power instead of proving your point is a
> fascistic attitude. >
>
> This is far from a power play on my part.

Not yours, this was against the consul.

> Let's be honest....if this were
> merely a bid for me to flex my muscles I would not be tolerating the kind of
> name-calling I have been subject to by you. If this were about "power" I
> have the "power" to end this entire discussion. I will not do so. Because,
> you see, this is not about ego for me. This is not about making rules for
> no good reason. This is not about me making an effort to see how many
> non-English speakers I can offend oppress and alienate. This is, whether
> you choose to believe it or not, a policy I have thought long and hard on
> and genuinely feel is in the best interest of the list as a whole. Does
> that mean some might disagree? Maybe so, and that is fine. Does this mean
> it will make every person happy? No, probably not, but that is the way of
> the world. In a perfect world, perhaps, we would all be 100% content with
> 100% of the rules. In this world, however, I need to do what I feel is
> right for the list as a whole.
>

You sure do.

> The very fact that this policy does not hurt anyone, welcomes all
> languages and, in fact, might serve to encourage some to post now that they
> see assistance is available, seems to be totally overlooked by
> some....yourself included....who seem driven to prove that this is yet
> another "power-mad-magistrate-out-to-oppress-the-little guy." I am not such
> a magistrate. I am merely a dedicated Curatrix doing as I feel is best for
> reasons which have already been explained.
>

The assistance part is great and whatever the list policy becomes should
stay available for whom WANTS it, needs is alienating.
BTW why didn t I candidate for this assistance? Because I feel that
participating is suporting that rule.
Change it to English PREFERED, assistance offered and I will be first to
candidate.

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus.

> Vale,
> Priscilla Vedia Serena
> Curatrix Sermonem
>
> Michel.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:15:23 -0800

Ave,

Is anyone just as bored with this conversation as I am. Please
moderator...lets end this discussion and move into something more productive
and if this thread presists can it either be taken PRIVATE....or put those
people on moderated....for disrupting the list.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michel Loos" <loos@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression


> JusticeCMO wrote:
> >
> > Salve,
> > >> 1) I never called her fascist. I said she used fascist methods.
Which
> > is
> > the issue. >>
> >
> > This may very well be your opinion (baseless as it is) but is far from
> > true.
> >
> > >> Fascist is not an insult it is a political position, which I don t
> > share. Communist is not an insult it is a poltical position which I
share.
> > Taleban is not an insult it is a religious and political position
which
> > I don t share. Now if you feel that every political position you don
t
> > share, or feel you don t share is perceived as an offense in english,
it
> > would really
> > be better to speak a language from a multi-party country. >>
> >
> > We all know why you chose the terms you did, and for you to try and
> > back-pedal now and claim they were not meant to be offensive is simply
> > cowardly. I, as a woman, take great offense at the reference to the
Taliban
> > in particular. If you know anything about the organization you will
need no
> > further explanation.
> >
>
> Did you perceive that I said I was communist ? How could I use this as
> an offense ?
>
> For the fascism. It seems it has been demonized in your macronation.
> Here the Getulist (local version of fascsim in the 30') party (PTB) is
> still here, is in the government support base (well often), and fascism
> is a political option.
> In Italy the fascist party (MSI) runs several large cities and was part
> of the government in th 90', again fascism is a current political option
> there. Not an offense, just an option.
> Now what is fascism: a modern (XXth century) recreation of Imperial
> Rome. Is this a risk for our modern recreation of Republican Rome ? I
> fear it.
>
> For the Taliban, another dictature of a large part of society on the
> rest. I as much as you am profundly against the options they took of
> recreating a mythical 7th century moslem state. I certainly as you
> noticed, didn t mean that you, as a women, adhere to their ideology.
>
> > >> We now have a rule which prohibits non-english _speaking_ citizens
to
> > freely communicate on the main-list. >>
> >
> > Ah, here is the crux of your argument. Allow me to correct you.
Posts
> > from non-English speakers are MORE than welcome here. Heck, posts in
MORE
> > than one language are MORE than welcome here. As a global community I
take
> > great pleasure in fostering input from as many individuals as we can.
That
> > *only* requirement is that a translation of posts into English be
provided
> > so that the vast majority will be able to understand, communicate with
and
> > welcome the non-English speaker. This is fascism?
> >
>
> No this is not fascism, it is just unneeded.
>
> > >> How the hell are you expecting 2 non-english speking citizens to
> > contact
> > each other ? Passing through superior authority ? (Propraetor,
Curatrix).
> > At best it
> > is "Democratic Centralism" (communist way of communicatin between the
> > cells) at worst Military/Fascist communication and yes for me they are
the
> > same. That is a problem. >>
> >
> > This brings up another of your pet fears.......censorship. I have
stated
> > publicly, and will do so here again, that translations are just that:
> > translations. "Yo soy una chica" will be rendered as "I am a girl" on
this
> > list. Nothing added, nothing changed, and no "secretive approval by a
> > superior authority" is in the works here. Posts by non-English speakers
are
> > subject to NO censorship. In reality, if I *were* the power-mad tyrant
you
> > ( and a few others)would have some believe, it would be an easy enough
thing
> > to moderate the entire list, requiring ALL posts pass through me before
> > appearing. That is the farthest thing from what I swore an oath to do.
To
> > continue to assert that translations are somehow subject to some
scrutiny or
> > extra requirements is untrue.
> >
>
> I didn t say that this will be censorship, I said that rules allows for
> the censorship. I even said that while a "Philosopher King" rules (would
> be you)
> every thing is fine but when a "Tyrant" (not you) gets the position, he
> will
> have the mechanism in hands to use censure.
> If I thought YOU were a tyrant I would not be trying to convince you to
> change the rule, I would just leave.
>
>
> > >> Now our consul expressed his position: the idea comes from an
> > political
> > opponent, consequently it is bad and will not be done. Is this really
> > politics in the best interest of NovaRoma ? >>
> >
> > Let me present some facts for you, as well as one or two others whose
> > comments lead me to believe this is necessary. The Consul does not make
> > list policy. The Consul is not the duly elected magistrate in charge of
> > running this list. He is my husband, true. He is opinionated, true.
But
> > make no mistake. I, as Curatrix Sermonem, am responsible for this list
and
> > the smooth running thereof. You are free to think what you will of my
> > husband's politics, but do not make the mistake of confusing us as being
of
> > one mind on all issues.
> >
>
> I did not know about that (that you were related outside NovaRoma). I
> addressed only his post here, not your position.
>
> > >> I really didn t see ANY argument explaining why this is GOOD for
> > NovaRoma, I saw some arguments of our Curatrix explaining why she feels
it
> > is not SO bad. >>
> >
>
> Here, you can notice that I made a difference between your arguments,
> and his absence of arguments.
>
>
> > This is simply untrue. I have stated repeatedly why I feel this
policy is
> > best for this list. Let me do so again: like many issues in life, there
are
> > several sides.
> >
> > A) All English, no exceptions. I did not go this route because it
WOULD
> > be exclusionary and unfair to non-English speakers. There is no need or
> > call to prohibit or exclude all except those who can write in English.
> >
> > B) All languages, no limits, no format: I did not go this route
because
> > it leads to unnecessary confusion. Going this route leads to a poster
> > sending a message with NO guarantee that anyone will take it upon
themselves
> > to translate, with no guarantees that IF someone does translate that
they
> > will do so accurately,
>
> No guaranties, but a high probability, and even better in my eyes, a
> high probability that we will get several translations which when read
> together will give a mare faithfull image of the original thinking. No
> unique translator can be trusted, not
> because he is malevolent but because each time you translate you loose
> some nuances of your thoughts and sometimes the most important feeling
> that a word should pass for you is lost in the translation. Look at the
> Republic/Democracy thing these 2 words seem to have a totally different
> meaning in the USA and outside of USA. If I translate them to french by
> Republique and Democracie (or seemingly to any other language) they will
> no more mean what the original US-english speaking meant by opposing one
> to the other, it will really be the like the "not blond, long". The same
> thing will/can happen thousand times in any translation.
>
> > and with potentially no way for the original poster
> > to comprehend the responses his or her post gets once(if) it has been
> > translated. This policy would lead to some extra posts, but that is not
the
> > primary reason for my not going this way. The chaos and uncertainty is
the
> > primary factor against this "free-for-all"/"Tower of Babel" approach.
> >
>
> That s another point we strongly disagree. Since the main/preferred
> language of this list is/(should stay IMO) english, it is quite obvious
> that the subscribers of this list understand english, but for allophones
> it is not because you understand a language that you are able to write
> it. The ones that don t understand english are not on this list.
>
> > C) All languages welcome, as long as English translation is provided.
> > This choice allows all posters to post. NO ONE is banned or punished
for
> > not being able to write in English. There is no penalty for posting in
> > non-English the first time out. In the rare instances where an
individual
> > subscribes to the list but either cannot or will not post in English,
> > translators have volunteered to help them to post. These posts will not
> > necessarily excise the original language. As has been seen here by
Senator
> > Vado, for example, who posts edicts in both Latin and English, dual
language
> > posts are MORE than welcome. This choice also guarantees that the
poster
> > has someone to work with in ensuring their ideas get through and that
any
> > replies they may need translated back into their native tongue will also
be
> > taken care of. There is no harm done in this policy. No one's freedoms
are
> > being taken away and no one is being censored. In point of fact, this
> > choice may very well encourage those who are insecure in their
> > English-writing skills to seek out a partner to help them jump in and
> > participate more. This compromise actually benefits the poster, the
> > translators and the nation as a whole as more members may choose to step
in
> > and participate.
> >
> > >> I don t agree but understand. >>
> >
> > I don't believe you do understand, given your misconceptions above.
> > Hopefully now you will have a clearer view of things however.
> >
> > >> But why is the "unwelcomness" of non-english posts GOOD ? >>
> >
> > Here it is again: ALL languages are welcome here, provided a
translation
> > into English is provided. That is a good thing. It is good for the
poster
> > a) his/her point is understood and is able to be replied to and b)he/she
is
> > still able to show national pride by using their own native language if
they
> > desire/need. Who is being harmed here?
> >
>
> I never saw it as a problem of national pride, our nation here is
> NovaRoma.
>
> > >> Is it enough for us to have rules that are not too bad ? Why
setting
> > rules that are just not too bad ? >>
> >
> > Whether you agree with it or not, this policy is intended to be of
benefit
> > to the members of this list. If you truly believe I have time enough on
my
> > hands to dream up rules with no basis and for no reason, I would invite
you
> > to spend a day in my life. I act as I see is best for the list as a
whole.
> > Believe me when I say that I read every post every day and that every
> > opinion IS taken into account. Just because I do not change policy to
> > accommodate every opinion does not mean you haven't been heard.
> >
>
> I acknowledge this, and thank you for listening. And it s exactly
> because I think/feel that you are listening that I try to convince you.
>
> > >> Is n t it easier to let the list free ? >>
> >
> > No, in point of fact it would not be easier to have a list without
rules.
> > All that is being done with this policy is that posts will be presented
in a
> > way so that the maximum number of members can understand it. For some,
that
> > might very well be in the "native" tongue, for others it will be in the
> > English translation. That freedom, freedom to speak and be understood,
is
> > the purpose of this list.
> >
>
> Why not appointing a designated translator that picks the post ON THE
> LIST and translates it after being posted ? You get your official
> translation, we get the
> free posting. Everybody understands the post, nobody feels a cripple
> (sorry I don t find the correct word this is too strong) for having to
> ask for help.
>
> > >> this has become a problem beyond reason or common sense, just a
> > problem of showing power. Showing power instead of proving your point
is a
> > fascistic attitude. >
> >
> > This is far from a power play on my part.
>
> Not yours, this was against the consul.
>
> > Let's be honest....if this were
> > merely a bid for me to flex my muscles I would not be tolerating the
kind of
> > name-calling I have been subject to by you. If this were about "power"
I
> > have the "power" to end this entire discussion. I will not do so.
Because,
> > you see, this is not about ego for me. This is not about making rules
for
> > no good reason. This is not about me making an effort to see how many
> > non-English speakers I can offend oppress and alienate. This is,
whether
> > you choose to believe it or not, a policy I have thought long and hard
on
> > and genuinely feel is in the best interest of the list as a whole. Does
> > that mean some might disagree? Maybe so, and that is fine. Does this
mean
> > it will make every person happy? No, probably not, but that is the way
of
> > the world. In a perfect world, perhaps, we would all be 100% content
with
> > 100% of the rules. In this world, however, I need to do what I feel is
> > right for the list as a whole.
> >
>
> You sure do.
>
> > The very fact that this policy does not hurt anyone, welcomes all
> > languages and, in fact, might serve to encourage some to post now that
they
> > see assistance is available, seems to be totally overlooked by
> > some....yourself included....who seem driven to prove that this is yet
> > another "power-mad-magistrate-out-to-oppress-the-little guy." I am not
such
> > a magistrate. I am merely a dedicated Curatrix doing as I feel is best
for
> > reasons which have already been explained.
> >
>
> The assistance part is great and whatever the list policy becomes should
> stay available for whom WANTS it, needs is alienating.
> BTW why didn t I candidate for this assistance? Because I feel that
> participating is suporting that rule.
> Change it to English PREFERED, assistance offered and I will be first to
> candidate.
>
> Vale,
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus.
>
> > Vale,
> > Priscilla Vedia Serena
> > Curatrix Sermonem
> >
> > Michel.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>

Subject:	[novaroma] Treasury now accepts Web payments
From:	pjane@--------
Date:	Fri, 09 Feb 2001 01:53:45 -0000

At the urging of Octavius and Cassius, I have set up an account for
Nova Roma on the PayPal service. This service accepts credit-card
payments (including international ones) and will deposit the money
directly into NR's checking account, minus a 2.2% fee. There is no fee
to the person paying.

This will allow NR to accept donations and conduct state businesses via
the Web. It will also cut down on bad checks (we've only had a couple
so far, but still) and allow our non-U.S. Citizens to contribute to
NR's well-being without additional fees. This last benefit alone seems
to me to be worth the cost of the service.

I expect this account will see much more usage after we receive a
ruling on our application for U.S. tax exemption (probably sometime in
March). If you can't wait to donate and don't mind skipping the tax
deduction, point your browser to:

https://secure.paypal.com/xclick/business=pcassia%40novaroma.org&
item_name=Nova+Roma+Treasury&return=http%3A//www.novaroma.org/macellum

Octavius has been supplied with the code for a "donate to Nova Roma"
button, and I've encouraged him to sprinkle it liberally around the
site.

Patricia Cassia
Quaestor, Nova Roma

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] The Cursus Honorum
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:21:12 -0500

Salvete;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla [mailto:alexious@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 3:43 PM
>
> Personally I like it but as a suggestion, I think you should drop Praetor
from
> item two. :) I see your reasoning..but if someone is knowledgeable on
> laws..they should feel free to start their political career as Praetor.

I can see doing it that way. My only hesitancy is that the Aediles are also
legal positions, and that would be a perfect entré for someone interested in
law (leaving them able to move on to Praetor the next year). Plus there is a
historical association of Praetor as the second rung of the Cursus Honorum.
But I could go either way. Good suggestion; anyone have any thoughts?

Valete

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

"For Gracchus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
bad one." (Crassus, in the film "Spartacus")

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
From:	tekwkp@--------
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:35:45 EST

Ave, Sulla Felix:

I have just sent you my thoughts on this. High time to put it to rest, in all
ways and proceed with the goals, the conceptions of Nova Roma. That which
first attracted me to Nova Roma. All has been said and done [?] time to move
on and meaningful pursue the ideology of Nova Roma.

Lentulus Cornelius Drusus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
From:	LucillaCornelia@--------
Date:	Thu, 08 Feb 2001 21:36:06 -0500

Ave,

Here, here Pater! Well put, succinctly and to the point: This discussion has ended.

Our esteemed Curatrix has ruled on the matter in her usual exemplary fashion and has formulated a fair, equanimous and even-handed solutions to concerns brought before her. Kudos, Curatrix Sermonem, for your well-considered response to this issue. We support your wise policy.

Any issues brought to the Main List since this ruling appear to be personal in nature and, as such, should be moved out of the public venue in order that we may, in the words of my distinguished Pater, move on and engage in things more productive.

Valete bene,
Prima Lucilla Cornelia Fortunata


novaroma@-------- wrote:
>
> Ave,
>
> Is anyone just as bored with this conversation as I am.  Please
> moderator...lets end this discussion and move into something more productive
> and if this thread presists can it either be taken PRIVATE....or put those
> people on moderated....for disrupting the list.
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Censor of Nova Roma
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michel Loos" <loos@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 5:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Freedom of Lingusitic Expression
>
>
> > JusticeCMO wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve,
> > >    >> 1) I never called her fascist. I said she used fascist methods.
> Which
> > > is
> > >   the issue. >>
> > >
> > >   This may very well be your opinion (baseless as it is) but is far from
> > > true.
> > >
> > >    >> Fascist is not an insult it is a political position, which I don t
> > >   share. Communist is not an insult it is a poltical position which I
> share.
> > >   Taleban is not an insult it is a religious and political position
> which
> > >   I don t share.   Now if you feel that every political position you don
> t
> > > share, or feel   you don t share is perceived as an offense in english,
> it
> > > would really
> > >   be better to speak a language from a multi-party country. >>
> > >
> > >   We all know why you chose the terms you did, and for you to try and
> > > back-pedal now and claim they were not meant to be offensive is simply
> > > cowardly.  I, as a woman, take great offense at the reference to the
> Taliban
> > > in particular.  If you know anything about the organization you will
> need no
> > > further explanation.
> > >
> >
> > Did you perceive that I said I was communist ? How could I use this as
> > an offense ?
> >
> > For the fascism. It seems it has been demonized in your macronation.
> > Here the Getulist (local version of fascsim in the 30') party (PTB) is
> > still here, is in the government support base (well often), and fascism
> > is a political option.
> > In Italy the fascist party (MSI) runs several large cities and was part
> > of the government in th 90', again fascism is a current political option
> > there. Not an offense, just an option.
> > Now what is fascism: a modern (XXth century) recreation of Imperial
> > Rome. Is this a risk for our modern recreation of Republican Rome ? I
> > fear it.
> >
> > For the Taliban, another dictature of a large part of society on the
> > rest. I as much as you am profundly against the options they took of
> > recreating a mythical 7th century moslem state. I certainly as you
> > noticed, didn t mean that you, as a women, adhere to their ideology.
> >
> > >    >> We now have a rule which prohibits non-english _speaking_ citizens
> to
> > >   freely communicate on the main-list. >>
> > >
> > >   Ah, here is the crux of your argument.  Allow me to correct you.
> Posts
> > > from non-English speakers are MORE than welcome here. Heck, posts in
> MORE
> > > than one language are MORE than welcome here.  As a global community I
> take
> > > great pleasure in fostering input from as many individuals as we can.
> That
> > > *only* requirement is that a translation of posts into English be
> provided
> > > so that the vast majority will be able to understand, communicate with
> and
> > > welcome the non-English speaker.  This is fascism?
> > >
> >
> > No this is not fascism, it is just unneeded.
> >
> > >   >> How the hell are you expecting 2 non-english speking citizens to
> > > contact
> > >   each other ? Passing through superior authority ? (Propraetor,
> Curatrix).
> > > At best it
> > >   is "Democratic Centralism" (communist way of communicatin between the
> > > cells) at worst Military/Fascist communication and yes for me they are
> the
> > > same.    That is a problem. >>
> > >
> > >   This brings up another of your pet fears.......censorship.  I have
> stated
> > > publicly, and will do so here again, that translations are just that:
> > > translations.  "Yo soy una chica" will be rendered as "I am a girl" on
> this
> > > list.  Nothing added, nothing changed, and no "secretive approval by a
> > > superior authority" is in the works here.  Posts by non-English speakers
> are
> > > subject to NO censorship.  In reality, if I *were* the power-mad tyrant
> you
> > > ( and a few others)would have some believe, it would be an easy enough
> thing
> > > to moderate the entire list, requiring ALL posts pass through me before
> > > appearing.  That is the farthest thing from what I swore an oath to do.
> To
> > > continue to assert that translations are somehow subject to some
> scrutiny or
> > > extra requirements is untrue.
> > >
> >
> > I didn t say that this will be censorship, I said that rules allows for
> > the censorship. I even said that while a "Philosopher King" rules (would
> > be you)
> > every thing is fine but when a "Tyrant" (not you) gets the position, he
> > will
> > have the mechanism in hands to use censure.
> > If I thought YOU were a tyrant I would not be trying to convince you to
> > change the rule, I would just leave.
> >
> >
> > >    >> Now our consul expressed his position: the idea comes from an
> > > political
> > >   opponent, consequently it is bad and will not be done. Is this really
> > > politics in the best interest of NovaRoma ? >>
> > >
> > >   Let me present some facts for you, as well as one or two others whose
> > > comments lead me to believe this is necessary.  The Consul does not make
> > > list policy.  The Consul is not the duly elected magistrate in charge of
> > > running this list.  He is my husband, true.  He is opinionated, true.
> But
> > > make no mistake. I, as Curatrix Sermonem, am responsible for this list
> and
> > > the smooth running thereof.  You are free to think what you will of my
> > > husband's politics, but do not make the mistake of confusing us as being
> of
> > > one mind on all issues.
> > >
> >
> > I did not know about that (that you were related outside NovaRoma). I
> > addressed only his post here, not your position.
> >
> > >    >> I really didn t see ANY argument explaining why this is GOOD for
> > > NovaRoma, I saw some arguments of our Curatrix explaining why she feels
> it
> > > is not SO bad. >>
> > >
> >
> > Here, you can notice that I made a difference between your arguments,
> > and his absence of arguments.
> >
> >
> > >   This is simply untrue.  I have stated repeatedly why I feel this
> policy is
> > > best for this list.  Let me do so again: like many issues in life, there
> are
> > > several sides.
> > >
> > >   A) All English, no exceptions.  I did not go this route because it
> WOULD
> > > be exclusionary and unfair to non-English speakers.  There is no need or
> > > call to prohibit or exclude all except those who can write in English.
> > >
> > >   B) All languages, no limits, no format:  I did not go this route
> because
> > > it leads to unnecessary confusion.  Going this route leads to a poster
> > > sending a message with NO guarantee that anyone will take it upon
> themselves
> > > to translate, with no guarantees that IF someone does translate that
> they
> > > will do so accurately,
> >
> > No guaranties, but a high probability, and even better in my eyes, a
> > high probability that we will get several translations which when read
> > together will give a mare faithfull image of the original thinking. No
> > unique translator can be trusted, not
> > because he is malevolent  but because each time you translate you loose
> > some nuances of your thoughts and sometimes the most important feeling
> > that a word should pass for you is lost in the translation. Look at the
> > Republic/Democracy thing these 2 words seem to have a totally different
> > meaning in the USA and outside of USA. If I translate them to french by
> > Republique and Democracie (or seemingly to any other language) they will
> > no more mean what the original US-english speaking meant by opposing one
> > to the other, it will really be the like the "not blond, long". The same
> > thing will/can happen thousand times in any translation.
> >
> > > and with potentially no way for the original poster
> > > to comprehend the responses his or her post gets once(if) it has been
> > > translated. This policy would lead to some extra posts, but that is not
> the
> > > primary reason for my not going this way.  The chaos and uncertainty is
> the
> > > primary factor against this "free-for-all"/"Tower of Babel" approach.
> > >
> >
> > That s another point we strongly disagree. Since the main/preferred
> > language of this list is/(should stay IMO) english, it is quite obvious
> > that the subscribers of this list understand english, but for allophones
> > it is not because you understand a language that you are able to write
> > it. The ones that don t understand english are not on this list.
> >
> > >   C) All languages welcome, as long as English translation is provided.
> > > This choice allows all posters to post.  NO ONE is banned or punished
> for
> > > not being able to write in English.  There is no penalty for posting in
> > > non-English the first time out.  In the rare instances where an
> individual
> > > subscribes to the list but either cannot or will not post in English,
> > > translators have volunteered to help them to post.  These posts will not
> > > necessarily excise the original language.  As has been seen here by
> Senator
> > > Vado, for example, who posts edicts in both Latin and English, dual
> language
> > > posts are MORE than welcome.  This choice also guarantees that the
> poster
> > > has someone to work with in ensuring their ideas get through and that
> any
> > > replies they may need translated back into their native tongue will also
> be
> > > taken care of.  There is no harm done in this policy. No one's freedoms
> are
> > > being taken away and no one is being censored.  In point of fact, this
> > > choice may very well encourage those who are insecure in their
> > > English-writing skills to seek out  a partner to help them jump in and
> > > participate more.  This compromise actually benefits the poster, the
> > > translators and the nation as a whole as more members may choose to step
> in
> > > and participate.
> > >
> > >   >> I don t agree but understand.  >>
> > >
> > >   I don't believe you do understand, given your misconceptions above.
> > > Hopefully now you will have a clearer view of things however.
> > >
> > >    >> But why is the "unwelcomness" of non-english posts GOOD ? >>
> > >
> > >   Here it is again:  ALL languages are welcome here, provided a
> translation
> > > into English is provided.  That is a good thing.  It is good for the
> poster
> > > a) his/her point is understood and is able to be replied to and b)he/she
> is
> > > still able to show national pride by using their own native language if
> they
> > > desire/need.  Who is being harmed here?
> > >
> >
> > I never saw it as a problem of national pride, our nation here is
> > NovaRoma.
> >
> > >   >> Is it enough for us to have rules that are not too bad ? Why
> setting
> > > rules that are just not too bad ? >>
> > >
> > >   Whether you agree with it or not, this policy is intended to be of
> benefit
> > > to the members of this list.  If you truly believe I have time enough on
> my
> > > hands to dream up rules with no basis and for no reason, I would invite
> you
> > > to spend a day in my life. I act as I see is best for the list as a
> whole.
> > > Believe me when I say that I read every post every day and that every
> > > opinion IS taken into account.  Just because I do not change policy to
> > > accommodate every opinion does not mean you haven't been heard.
> > >
> >
> > I acknowledge this, and thank you for listening. And it s exactly
> > because I think/feel that you are listening that I try to convince you.
> >
> > >   >> Is n t it easier to let the list free ? >>
> > >
> > >   No, in point of fact it would not be easier to have a list without
> rules.
> > > All that is being done with this policy is that posts will be presented
> in a
> > > way so that the maximum number of members can understand it. For some,
> that
> > > might very well be in the "native" tongue, for others it will be in the
> > > English translation.  That freedom, freedom to speak and be understood,
> is
> > > the purpose of this list.
> > >
> >
> > Why not appointing a designated translator that picks the post ON THE
> > LIST and translates it after being posted ? You get your official
> > translation, we get the
> > free posting. Everybody understands the post, nobody feels a cripple
> > (sorry I don t find the correct word this is too strong) for having to
> > ask for help.
> >
> > >    >> this has become a problem beyond   reason or common sense, just a
> > > problem of showing power. Showing power   instead of proving your point
> is a
> > > fascistic attitude. >
> > >
> > >   This is far from a power play on my part.
> >
> > Not yours, this was against the consul.
> >
> > >  Let's be honest....if this were
> > > merely a bid for me to flex my muscles I would not be tolerating the
> kind of
> > > name-calling I have been subject to by you.  If this were about "power"
> I
> > > have the "power" to end this entire discussion.  I will not do so.
> Because,
> > > you see, this is not about ego for me.  This is not about making rules
> for
> > > no good reason.  This is not about me making an effort to see how many
> > > non-English speakers I can offend oppress and alienate.  This is,
> whether
> > > you choose to believe it or not, a policy I have thought long and hard
> on
> > > and genuinely feel is in the best interest of the list as a whole.  Does
> > > that mean some might disagree?  Maybe so, and that is fine.  Does this
> mean
> > > it will make every person happy?  No, probably not, but that is the way
> of
> > > the world.  In a perfect world, perhaps, we would all be 100% content
> with
> > > 100% of the rules.  In this world, however, I need to do what I feel is
> > > right for the list as a whole.
> > >
> >
> > You sure do.
> >
> > >   The very fact that this policy does not hurt anyone, welcomes all
> > > languages and, in fact, might serve to encourage some to post now that
> they
> > > see assistance is available, seems to be totally overlooked by
> > > some....yourself included....who seem driven to prove that this is yet
> > > another "power-mad-magistrate-out-to-oppress-the-little guy."  I am not
> such
> > > a magistrate.  I am merely a dedicated Curatrix doing as I feel is best
> for
> > > reasons which have already been explained.
> > >
> >
> > The assistance part is great and whatever the list policy becomes should
> > stay available for whom WANTS it, needs is alienating.
> > BTW why didn t I candidate for this assistance? Because I feel that
> > participating is suporting that rule.
> > Change it to English PREFERED, assistance offered and I will be first to
> > candidate.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Manius Villius Limitanus.
> >
> > >   Vale,
> > >   Priscilla Vedia Serena
> > >   Curatrix Sermonem
> > >
> > >   Michel.
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--
Prima Lucilla Cornelia Fortunata
__________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Local Government
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Fri, 09 Feb 2001 03:39:00 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...>
wrote:
> Salve;
>
> Excellent stuff! But fear not; the subject has vanished only
temporarily
> from the list. I'm sure after our New Jersey meeting on the 18th,
there'll
> be a lot of talk about local groups again!
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>


Salvete,

The Dictator G. Iulius Caesar's Lex Julia Municipalis of DCCIV AUC
contained many provisions for regulating and setting up new local
goverments in Italy. The Lex can be viewed (In Latin) at
http://koptev.newmail.ru/library/leges/municip.html
I'm not aware of the location of an English translation, so if one of
our citizens who knows latin could provide a translation this lex
could give us some insight in how local goverment was handled in the
late Republic.

Valete,
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

Subject:	[novaroma] ADMIN NOTE (Languages)
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:08:06 -0500

Salve,

I wish to thank everyone (regardless of position) who participated
constructively in the recent language discussion. Many excellent points
were made, all were considered and the policy has now been clearly stated.
If anyone wishes to review the policy, it is a part of the "welcome" text
sent to all new members and is available on the Yahoogroups website in the
"files" section.

All views have been expressed, the policy has been clearly stated and the
topic has been settled. Further discussion is unwarranted on the main list
at this time. Anyone wishing to pursue the discussion in private is more
than welcome to do so. However, no further posts on this topic will be
permitted here on the main list.

Any questions, comments, concerns or quibbles about this announcement should
be sent to me *privately* at justicecmo@-------- Kindly do NOT
reply to this post publicly.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonem

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] The Cursus Honorum
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 9 Feb 2001 01:26:18 -0600

Salvete Senior Consul et Quiritibus;
-----Original Message-----
From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus [mailto:germanicus@--------]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 3:43 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] The Cursus Honorum


Fl Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.

<snipped>

Now, obviously given our relatively small population, lack of experienced
magistrates to fill higher offices, and relative youth, we cannot and should
not institute the full Cursus Honorum now.

OFS: Gratias multas for this. I'll echo my opinion from
the last Cursus discussion that I fully agree that the Cursus
is something we should strive for, but reality dictates that
we're quite a ways away from any formalization of same. Perhaps
at least 1-2 years judging by the levels of current participation.

<snipped>

First, magistrates must be citizens in good standing for at least one year
before they can take office. The limit would be six months for the
vigintsexviri, and it would not apply to scribes, provincial or local
officers, etc. This is just a common-sense precaution to make sure our
magistrates have some familiarity with Nova Roma and her ways, but doesn't
cut anyone out from public service in their first year (they could, for
example, serve as a scribe, or legatus, etc.).

OFS: While I certainly do agree that your suggested approach has a good
many merits which are very typical of your excellent proposals,
I have to disagree with
the time frame suggested. Yes, it would be *ideal,* if our ranks were
swelling with active and experienced cives to fulfill our major
magistracies.
Unfortunately, as we see time and again (even in my relatively short
history with NR,) that we are always lacking in volunteers and qualified
candidates to run for office. Inevitably, some additional prodding mail
will be sent as reminders, then the active, busy and experienced citizens,
will come forth out of duty and honor to add to their already significant
workloads in NR.

That being said, it has been heartening to see all the new activity
generated
by some of Nova Roma's newest citizens. In time (perhaps another 2 years or
so,) we will *begin* to have a pool of *active* citizens such that a fuller
Cursus may be instituted. Not that the Cursus shouldn't be *encouraged* when
and where possible, but beyond that -frankly, in my humble opinion we're
nowhere near ready enough. Now if our censorial rolls were full of 700+
*active*, available and experienced cives...this might be a different story.

I might suggest that certainly; any and all cives with any interest
at all in Nova Roma's government should *ideally* start out as scribae,
legates, etc. In terms of babystepping toward the Cursus however, I
recommend
taking even smaller steps; say a term of something closer to 6-8 months
citizenship for offices such as Quaestor, Aedile, etc. The 'in good
standing' clause you mention should most certainly apply as well.

Second, no one may serve as Censor, Consul, or Praetor without having
previously being elected to some other magistracy.

OFS: I'll simply say 'me too' here -fully agreed for these positions,
with perhaps some additional consideration for the office of Praetor
as mentioned by Censor Sulla.

(Note that this would
preclude someone from being appointed, say, Consul in October and then
running for Censor; appointed positions wouldn't count.) As these are the
highest offices in the Cursus Honorum, it makes sense to have them staffed
by individuals who are guaranteed to have some prior experience in
government, with some sense of obligation to the people who elected them.

OFS: Absolutely.

Bene vale,
-Oppius Flaccus Severus
Sacerdos Neptunus et Scriba

<snipped>

Subject:	[novaroma] misunderstandings and other stuff
From:	alexanderprobus@--------
Date:	Fri, 09 Feb 2001 09:49:09 -0000

Salvete Qvirites,

I would like firstly publicly to ask Proconsul Quintus Fabius
Maximus' pardon. We have discussed and clearfy privatly the boring
misunderstanding happend yeasterday. I ask his pardon for my hasty
and sharp reply on his note.

Secondly I would like to say that I am more than sure that nobody
wants or tends to disciminate in any way others on that list. I do
believe in the good will of everyone here. Finaly, we all are here
sharing common love and interest and that may to unite us. There are
pleny of interesting issues on which we could focus. Why should we
cycle on things that separate us? I guess noone wants to separate
here from the others nor to belong to any special category.
As for the regulas on that list...I find them fair and I guess our
Curatrix Sermonium is doing an excellent but difficult job. Let us to
help and support her. I also highly appreciate Marcus Formosanus
efforts and his personal qualities.
In any case, I am sure the best thing subscribers on that list could
read would be a clasp of oponents' hands and focusing on cooperative
and constructive issue.

I am sorry for boring you again...

Bene vale and sun in your souls. It is so wonderful day today in
Pannonia.

Alexander I.C. Probus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] misunderstandings and other stuff
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Fri, 9 Feb 2001 02:02:14 -0800 (PST)

Dobar dan!

--- alexanderprobus@-------- wrote:

> In any case, I am sure the best thing subscribers on
> that list could
> read would be a clasp of oponents' hands and
> focusing on cooperative
> and constructive issue.

Well said. I apologize speaking harshly to those I
felt were attacking me. In truth, I'm sure we all had
the same goal -- expand communications within
NovaRoma.

> I am sorry for boring you again...

You have never bored me before, and you have not done
it this time -- you'll just have to try harder in the
future! :)

> Bene vale and sun in your souls. It is so wonderful
> day today in
> Pannonia.

In Germania it is the same. Thank you for your words
of conciliation and wisdom.

L Aetius Dalmaticus

=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"The cemeteries are full of indispensible men." --Charles de Gaulle

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] SCA-Going to this Event?
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:43:20 EST

Salve,
There is a large SCA event in Kalamazoo Michigan this Saturday. I will
be going and I was wondering if anyone else is as well. If you are Please
e-mail me privately and we can figure out how to make contact.
Prima Ancinna Drusila
(formally P.A. Olivia)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Treasury now accepts Web payments
From:	VMoeller@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:50:55 EST

Ave Patricia Cassia et Cives:

Excellent! The Donation button on the Web-site is a fantastic idea as
well. Well done and thank you! ---Secunda Cornelia Valeria, Quaestor

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Length of Elections
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:31:25 -0600

Salvete omnes;
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Macnair [mailto:MikeMacnair@--------]
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 2:41 PM
To: INTERNET:novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Length of Elections


<snipped>

giving about 6-7 days in all. Of course, we could take the view that if
citizens inadvertently cast invalid votes, that's tough; or we could re-set
up the Cista so that invalid votes produce an immediate error message.

OFS: “Me too” -7 or 8 days seems a good and reasonable
length of time.

To expound though, I think that YES, we absolutely do need some either
back end (preferable,) or in-page validation routines to check the
validity of votes and give cives who may have hit the <enter> key too
quickly, missed or inverted a digit, etc. the right to correct it.
Perhaps, going a step further and tying a gens name with a voter code,
or perhaps some other type of key identifier to ensure that the voting
process is about as foolproof as it can be made.

Sorry Marce Octavi -not trying to create more work, just a suggestion.
And no, citizens; I'm not EVEN about to make this another debate about
the macronational elections in a certain well-known country. I can but
simply take
the last plebian election -12 tribes to 11, with 6 full tribes casting
invalid votes. I hope that at least most of us can agree that this should
*not* happen. How much different might the results have been with
some correction of voter codes and a little more participation.


Valete,

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Length of Elections
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:51:35 -0200 (BRST)

On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, Oppius Flaccus Severus wrote:

> Salvete omnes;
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Macnair [mailto:MikeMacnair@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 2:41 PM
> To: INTERNET:novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] Length of Elections
>
>
> <snipped>
>
> giving about 6-7 days in all. Of course, we could take the view that if
> citizens inadvertently cast invalid votes, that's tough; or we could re-set
> up the Cista so that invalid votes produce an immediate error message.
>
> OFS: “Me too” -7 or 8 days seems a good and reasonable
> length of time.
>
> To expound though, I think that YES, we absolutely do need some either
> back end (preferable,) or in-page validation routines to check the
> validity of votes and give cives who may have hit the <enter> key too
> quickly, missed or inverted a digit, etc. the right to correct it.
> Perhaps, going a step further and tying a gens name with a voter code,
> or perhaps some other type of key identifier to ensure that the voting
> process is about as foolproof as it can be made.
>
> Sorry Marce Octavi -not trying to create more work, just a suggestion.
> And no, citizens; I'm not EVEN about to make this another debate about
> the macronational elections in a certain well-known country. I can but
> simply take
> the last plebian election -12 tribes to 11, with 6 full tribes casting
> invalid votes. I hope that at least most of us can agree that this should
> *not* happen. How much different might the results have been with
> some correction of voter codes and a little more participation.

Salve,

a question on those tribes that cast only invalid votes:
Where those tribes were only one citizen voted and his vote was
invalidaded, or where there many votes/tribe all of them invalidated.
The overall effect on the fairness of the elections (in my eyes)
would be very different.

Manius Villius Limitanus


>
>
> Valete,
>
> M. Mucius Scaevola Magister
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> www.
>
>
>
>
>
>

Pr. Michel Loos | Phone: 55 11 818 3810 p. 216
Inst. de Quimica USP | Fax: 55 11 815 5579
PO Box 26077 05599-970 São Paulo, S SP
Brazil

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] misunderstandings and other stuff
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:35:55 -0500

Salvete;

I would just like to echo Probus' sentiments in his entire post, but
especially here:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: alexanderprobus@-------- [mailto:alexanderprobus@--------]
> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 04:49
>
> In any case, I am sure the best thing subscribers on that list could
> read would be a clasp of oponents' hands and focusing on cooperative
> and constructive issue.

In the Asatru community, it's known as "frith". We call it concordia. Let us
all proceed with that spirit in our hearts, and look on this incident as a
way to demonstrate our providentia.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

"For Gracchus, hatred of the Patrician class is a profession, and not such a
bad one." (Crassus in the film "Spartacus")

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	[novaroma] The Role of Women...
From:	CatherineVStoudt@--------
Date:	Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:35:19 EST

Greetings! Salve, everyone!

I am Anneia Rvsticiana, new to the wonders of Nova Roma!

Some may have heard of me, as Ivlia/nna.

The role of women actually, unfortunately, was subject to the men in her
life. She had not many freedoms.

She was to be a matrona. Live the virtues of Rome and the Mos Maiorvm. She
could be a priestess, she could be a wife and/or daughter, of course she was,
or even a prostitute. But the ideal was to be a matrona, and live out her
life by the Mos Maiorvm.

I will post more on the Mos Maiorvm...

~ Anneia

Subject:	[novaroma] NOVA ROMA: Capita VIII and IX
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:06:49 +0100

Salvete Quirites,

After a long delay, behold the next chapters of the NR Mars novel. Anyone
who wishes to be sent earlier chapters or has questions, comments, etc.. can
send me a private email. Any and all input is appreciated. Many thanks and
credits go to my paterfamilias, Formosanus, for linguistic corrections, and
Quaestor Audens for his idea of the Roman/Martian navy.

~~~~~~~~~~°oOo°~~~~~~~~~~~

VIII. Quod licet Iovi non licet bovi

The honourable Senate of the Respublica Romana was in session. The presiding
Consul, Flavius Vedius Germanicus, announced the items. Exceptionally, there
was only one item in this monthly session. The other items had been stalled.
He mounted the rostra, and the gathered Senatores grew silent. The Curia was
a large building with an almost shiny glow from all the polished marble in
which the it had been built. In a halfcircle, as if it was a small
amphitheatre (and sometimes it seemed as though it was!), the Senatores were
seated in rows, whilst the rostra stood in the middle. Due to modern
architecture and lighting effects the lights seemed always to be directly
shining upon the man or woman that was behind the rostra. Also, no
microphones were needed, because of the ingeniously thought out spatial
effects in the Curia. Behind the rostra were two transparent and soundproof
doors, followed by a long corridor, ornamented with Corinthian marble
columns and plants of all sorts.
"Salvete, Senatores," began Vedius. He looked over the small mass of
Senatores who were all looking at him, their eyes hiding any possible
emotion they might have at this moment.
"Today, we need to discuss a very important matter. Since our dear friend
and esteemed Consul Cassius Iulianus has passed away, we need to find
someone else. The problem: will we organize new and separate elections, or
shall we elect someone from within the Senate to avoid trouble? I would like
to hear some proposals."
Of course many had already prepared speeches and proposals at home, or with
friends. Senator Marcus Marcius Rex was the first one to raise his hand. He
was in terms of Mars something of a homo novus within the Senate, but
nevertheless he was known for his fierce speeches and his vast knowledge.
Vedius granted him the floor and descended from the rostra to make place for
Rex.
"Salvete Senatores. In the light of the tragic events of the past few weeks,
it's not easy to make a decision regarding the choice of a new Consul.
However, my opinion on this is short and simple: let the people decide. Many
of them still visit the his tomb daily, and have shown a great deal of
sympathy and respect for him and his gens. We cannot deny them the right to
choose a new Consul, even though that person will only stay on temporarily.
Despite the strange situation, I see no reason why we should adopt special
means to choose a new Consul, and not involve the people in it. I thank you
for your attention."
Slight mumbling broke loose on several benches, nods as well as
disagreements. Quintus Fabius Maximus raised his hand, and at a sign of
Vedius was granted permission to mount the rostra. Rex descended and
returned to his seat on the marble benches.
"Salvete iterum. It is my belief that although it's imperative that we
choose a new Consul, we should do so from our own ranks. The recent
elections have just been digested by the people, and initiating new
campaigns will cost the republic too much money. By the time a new Consul
would be decently installed, he'd have only about six months left of his
term, and other political activities would be slowed down because of this
whole election process, not to mention the Praetorial investigation that
Diocletianus and I are still running on the case of Cassius. To ensure a
smooth running of the republic, we need to elect a Consul Suffectus from
within the Senate."
Again the whispering of voices echoed through the Curia. Friends talked to
each other shortly, and several people seemed to be thinking deeply. A few
hands were raised again, and this time it was Caius Aelius Ericius who came
in front of the assembled Senate. He was an old man, but with a mind that
would surprise many youths, regarding both ideals and speed. He always
seemed to be a little distracted though. Clarity had never been his
strongest point, but he managed to turn his vagueness into a charming
effect. Before speaking, he cleared his throat and looked over the
senatorial heads carefully and thoughtfully.
"Good afternoon, Senatores. As you are no doubt aware, the proposals we've
just heard from both M. Marcius Rex and Q. Fabius Maximus both have their
advantages and disadvantages. Therefore, I would say we take the best
aspects of both. Much like my colleague Rex, I believe that it's very
important to include the people of Mars in this decision. Doing everything
ourselves might be easier, but it would likely feed the conspiracy theories
that are living among the common man, and I don't think anyone here likes
the prospect of a riot. But I also agree with Praetor Maximus, when he says
that election campaigns would usurp too much money. Thus, what I propose is
a compromise: we hold new elections in which everyone will be able to vote,
but the candidates must be all Senatores."
A silence followed, and Ericius had problems of keeping a smile from his
face. Everyone seemed to be thinking, and no one raised their hand. Then
Vedius broke the silence.
"Very well. Does anyone else have any other proposal?"
Ericius descended from the rostra. No one came to take his place. Vedius
stood in front of the Senatus Romanus again.
"We have heard three proposals now. They have been processed into your
personal voting computers by the autoscribae, and voting will commence
within a few seconds. Let me add first that, without judging any of these
three proposals, what we are about to decide now is very important for the
future of Mars. We cannot afford instability right now. Relationships with
Earth are getting worse every day, and our terraformatio project is
constantly being obstructed by small rebel groups. The choice of a new
Consul will be instrumental in the process of getting out of that impasse
with Earth."
Vedius pressed a small button on the rostrum, and the lights in the room
dimmed, announcing the voting had started. He went back to his place on the
marble benches whilst the others were voting, and decided to vote for
Maximus' proposal. He didn't want barely mended emotional wounds for his
lost friend and colleague being washed away by a commercial and public
election campaign so soon. Plus, he wanted things to run smoothly,
especially with the threat of both the martianalists and Earth, that still
considered Mars as a colony.
"All votes have been cast," the voice computer of the Curia announced,
interrupting Vedius' musings. The digital voice had a pleasant yet
artificial tone, which had been made so on purpose to maintain a comfortable
distance between man and machine. A com that spoke in a robotic voice was
less suspect in the human mind than a com with a perfectly emulated human
voice.
The voting results were announced on each small screen the Senators had in
front of them. Rex's proposal had received 27%, Maximus' 34% and finally
Ericius' came out as the winner with 49%. Not a bad compromise, but not what
Vedius had hoped for, either. As the lights went back on and the eminent
Senatores got up from their seats to leave the building in small groups, a
small implant in Vedius' ear started ringing, meaning he had gotten an
urgent message on his wireless com. He got it from under his toga and read
the message discretely. It was a message from one of the Aediles Curules in
Nova Roma itself, which had also been addressed to the Praetores.


Salvete Consul et Praetores,

About half an hour ago in the Horti Concordiae one of our local prefects
discovered the body of Gnaeus Moravius Piscinus, one of the Tribuni Plebis.
In spite of the fact that we may be interrupting you, we felt that it
required your immediate attention in the light of the recent murder on
Consul Cassius. The press has not been informed yet, and only the staff of
the local prefecture knows about the macabre discovery.

Vale optime,
Marcus Cornelius Scipio


Vedius gasped and read the message again. But the green LEDs of the display
did not lie. While the Senate had been discussing and voting, another
important government official had been murdered, practically within eyesight
of the Curia, as the Horti Concordiae were only a few yards away from the
building. Slowly, he regained control again over his respiration and began
walking steadily in the direction of the exit.

IX. Ad Kalendas Graecas

"What?" Sextus Apollonius Draco barked in the microphone of the vid that was
placed in front of him.
"I'm sorry, but I cannot help you," the voice sounded in his ears. It was
the voice of his own paterfamilias, Formosanus. He seemed to radiate a sort
of maniacal stress, but Draco didn't really care about that right now.
"So this means that I'll have to be part of this mockery for at least a
year?!"
"I suppose so. You could always try to be so subversive they'll throw you
out."
"And I could just as well forget about my political aspirations then," Draco
grumbled. The reason for his anger was that Piscinus had promised him, when
he had entered the army, that when it would appear obvious that no clue was
to be found there, he could leave through his connections. And in effect,
nothing substantial was found at the army, and Draco was getting pretty fed
up with the tight schedules, the drills and the lame jokes, even after four
weeks. The fact that he had learnt about his failure in the Senate to obtain
an exemption for his candidacy as Aedilis Plebis had only made it worse. And
now Piscinus was dead, more than likely slain by the same person or
organization that was behind the death of Cassius. In doing so, Draco was
now convicted to minimally a full year of service in Legio XXI Ferox. Added
to that, both Curio and him had been chosen to go along a military operation
to locate a base of the martianalists in the south. Right now he was still
in the Tower, but he was scheduled to leave within a few hours and join the
party that was to board a huge sand vessel at the docks just outside Mons
Olympus. These ships were rather miraculous things. Gargantuan in size, they
were yet very light, and relied mainly on old-fashion propellers and sails,
because Martian winds were strong enough to carry them across large
distances through vast plains of sand. When the terrain was rockier, the
ship still had antigrav-engines to fly above the surface.
"What are your plans now?" Formosanus asked. Draco sighed.
"I'll see. I'll see. Well, the next time you're going to hear from me will
be when I get back from this mission."
"What sort of mission is it?" Draco nearly allowed himself a smile at the
diplomatic change of topic of his pater.
"I don't really know. It has something to do with the martianalists. They
don't tell a simple grunt all the details. Anyway. Pater; vale."
"Vale, mi fili!"
The screen went black. Draco got up and inspected his gear for the last
time, making sure he wouldn't forget anything. Everything seemed in order,
so he got up and ran through the base in a quick military pace. He still had
some time left, so he decided to make a detour through the evening market of
Mons Olympus.
As usual, there was much noise, the atmosphere was warm and the goods were
abundant. Jewels from the Moon! Wine from Earth! Martian AG-crystals! Small
Roman statues! Religio handbooks! Much of nothing, actually. Suddenly
Draco's attention was drawn to a tent in a brownish colour, that read on its
entrance plate:

"fortune telling and future prediction - guaranteed true!"

He had never seen this tent here before on Friday evening, even though it
stood there between many other salesmen and other tents as if it had always
stood there. That, along with the undeniable curiosity he felt made him go
in. A man who seemed to be in his late twenties sat at a dark brown table,
probably artificial wood. In the corners of the tent stood two statues of
some obscure Roman deities. To Draco's surprise he had no crystal ball, no
cards and no typical black robe or other accessories that were often
associated with magicians, soothsayers or other types of psychicks. Many
Romans seemed to believe in this, but Draco had his doubts.
"Do enter, my friend," the man said in a strange accent. Draco came closer
and went sitting on a stool at the opposite side of the table.
"So, what has brought you here?" the man asked. The small nameplate on the
table read 'Marcus Maximius Gaius'.
"You should be able to tell me that." There was something very uncomfortable
about his stare, and Draco began to regret that he had ever come here in the
first place. Maximius shrugged.
"I see your past and future, but not your motivations. Your future is very
interesting." He closed his eyes and folded his hands together as though he
was praying. Draco frowned. After a small minute, Maximius opened his eyes
again, and grinned.
"You have no idea what's going to happen this year. And I won't tell you,
either because it's too important. However, remember this phrase: Mars nos
protegat. And no, you don't have to pay me."
Bewildered, Draco rose from the stool and left the tent rather disorientedly
in the direction of the airship bay.

Eventually he managed to arrive in time, even though he was the last of the
party to arrive. The dock could only be reached through an air tunnel and
was built on a steep slope of the Mons Olympus, and artificially reenforced.
There was enough space for about five or six of these elegant ships, but
right now there was only one. Being a small military mission, there weren't
many people present either. He had been briefed beforehand about who was
who.
The most important member that went along was the Imperator Generalis of the
Martian army, namely Marcus Minucius Audens. He wasn't at the docks, so
Draco figured he'd be aboard the ship: a large, shadowy grey construct that
was connected to the bay with long metallic cords and cables. The second
member of the party was Lucius Marius Peregrinus, someone Draco vaguely knew
from familial meetings between friends, and might recognize him (not that it
mattered much). Number three was one Oppius Flaccus Severus, a provincial
military who came from a small battle station somewhere on Phobos or Deimos.
He had engaged himself in a very busy conversation with the fourth party
member, Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus, a legendary military and a capable
swordsman, laserswords being his specialty. The fifth party member stood on
the edge of the dock, looking down the flank of the dead volcano as though
he expected something to happen. His name was Ianus Querius Armoricus
Lutecio, the only civilian on this mission. Finally the remaining eight were
three crewmembers of the ship and its captain (all aboard the ship), Curio,
Sertorius, Bicurratus and Draco. It was a mystery to him why he had to join
this small mission alongside these men, who were obviously much more capable
soldiers than he was. Unless they needed someone to do the dirty jobs
aboard.

He decided not to talk or ask any questions, and thought about the encounter
with Maximius, while watching a small meteorite burning up in the Martian
atmosphere. It reminded him that the Romans had always thought of comets as
bad omens.

---------***----------

... look out for Caput X, a brief overview of Martian history
... look out for Caput XI, as yet another corpse falls from the closet, and
paranoia engulfs the Eternal City


Valete bene,
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Scriba Aedilis Plebis,
Lupercus Fabianus
Coryphaeus Sodalitatis Musarum,
Musaeus Collegii Eratus,
Musaeus Collegii Uraniae
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
--**--
Novaromain? Parlez-vous français? Cliquez ici!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_GalliaBelgicaF
Nieuwromein? Spreekt u Nederlands? Klik hier!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_BelgicaBataviaD
Novaroman? Interested in philosophy? Click here!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_Philosophy
Novaroman? Interested in politics? Click here!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_DignitasForum

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Length of Elections
From:	Mike Macnair <MikeMacnair@-------->
Date:	Fri, 9 Feb 2001 14:33:40 -0500

Salvete!

OFS wrote:

>>12 tribes to 11, with 6 full tribes casting
>> invalid votes. I hope that at least most of us can agree that this
should
>> *not* happen. How much different might the results have been with
>> some correction of voter codes and a little more participation.

and Limitanus responded:

>a question on those tribes that cast only invalid votes:
>Where those tribes were only one citizen voted and his vote was
>invalidaded, or where there many votes/tribe all of them invalidated.
>The overall effect on the fairness of the elections (in my eyes)
>would be very different.

I thought I'd clarified this issue in a previous message. There were 6
tribes for which no votes were recorded. The most probable explanation is
simply that no-one in those tribes bothered to vote.

Invalid votes because the voter code was wrong did not disclose which tribe
they were in, because the ballot is secret: all we (the Rogatores) get is
voter codes cross-tabulated against tribes. So we can't say what the effect
of this sort of invalid votes was on tribe votes. (Limitanus' question).

However, many were obviously not typos but attempts by people who weren't
entitled to to vote, by submitting a random code. Hence my conclusion that
in the 6 tribes without votes probably no-one bothered to vote.

There were two odd cases where votes were invalid in spite of a correct
voter code: one patrician submitted a blank vote in C. Plebis which was
invalid both because he or she was patrician, and because blank; one
citizen tried to vote twice, once for each of the contending candidates,
and so cancelled their own vote out. The latter was in a Tribe in which
there were other votes. Since we can't know what this citizen intended to
do, we can't know what the effect on the election was; there was certainly
no unfairness involved in ignoring both votes!

On the substantive point, I guess the disadvantage of a system which said
immediately that a vote was invalid might be that it might be hackable by
persons not entitled to vote. But Octavius will probably be able to tell
you I am wrong on this.

Valete!

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

Subject:	[novaroma] R.S.V.P. -- NOVA ROMANS ON THE GREEN -- An Open Invitation
From:	LucillaCornelia@--------
Date:	Fri, 09 Feb 2001 16:21:49 -0500

Ave Quirites!

On behalf of Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus, Praefectus Legionis, Tribuni
Militium et Cornicularis Sodalitas Militarium and the members of Legio VI
Victrix, we extend an open invitation to all Quirites of NR to join us for
the inaugural gathering of NOVA ROMANS ON THE GREEN.

COME JOIN US!

We invite all interested persons -- Cives and non-Cives alike -- who will be
in the greater New York metropolitan area on  Saturday, 24 February 2001 to
join us at 2:00 p.m. EDT.

And what more perfect gathering place than S.P.Q.R. Ristorante at 133
Mulberry Street, in the heart of Little Italy, close and convenient to all
forms of NYC Mass Transit!  For those using Mass Transit, we can arrange to
meet at Grand Central Station and then travel to S.P.Q.R. togther.

You can visit S.P.Q.R. on the web: www.salanthonysspqr.citysearch.com/1.html

RSVP APPRECIATED NO LATER THAN 16 FEBRUARY 2001 -- PLEASE!!!
Kindly direct your responses and any questions to:  
LucillaCornelia@--------

Thank you on behalf of Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus and Legio VI Victrix.  We
look forward to seeing as many of you as possible on the 24th for the first
of these wonderful monthly events.



Valete bene,

Prima Lucilla Cornelia Fortunata


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Medica Vulneraria, Legio VI Victrix

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Cursus Honorum
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Fri, 09 Feb 2001 00:23:04 -0000

Salvete Omnes:

Consul Germanicus, I think your proposal is very sensible, and is worthy of
weighted consideration. It provides a necessary criteria of
experience/commitment in Nova Roma re magisterial candidates, without
unnecessarily restricting the opportunities for citizens to run for office.

One small suggestion regarding the Praetorship, if I may. Instead of
holding them to having had experience serving in another magisterial
position, how about considering that candidates for Praetor will need to
have experience serving as a Scribe or Accensus? Just a thought.

Valete,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo,
Propraetrix, Canada Orientalis
Nova Roma

)
Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:
> (snip)
> >
> > I would make two suggestions along these lines.
> >
> > First, magistrates must be citizens in good standing for at least one
>year
> > before they can take office. The limit would be six months for the
> > vigintsexviri, and it would not apply to scribes, provincial or local
> > officers, etc. This is just a common-sense precaution to make sure our
> > magistrates have some familiarity with Nova Roma and her ways, but
>doesn't
> > cut anyone out from public service in their first year (they could, for
> > example, serve as a scribe, or legatus, etc.).
> >
> > Second, no one may serve as Censor, Consul, or Praetor without having
> > previously being elected to some other magistracy. (Note that this would
> > preclude someone from being appointed, say, Consul in October and then
> > running for Censor; appointed positions wouldn't count.) As these are
>the
> > highest offices in the Cursus Honorum, it makes sense to have them
>staffed
> > by individuals who are guaranteed to have some prior experience in
> > government, with some sense of obligation to the people who elected
>them.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
>

>

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