Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Crime and punishment
From:	Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@-------->
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 00:51:52 +0100

Salve,

I am new to Nova Roma, and not at all familiar with the laws and
regulations applying in this situation, nor with your sociopolitical
situation. I therefore apologize beforehand, should I in any way offend
anyone in any way.

If I understand the situation correctly, a great number of cives has
left
the republic recently, among them Gnaeus Moravius Piscinus, which would
render them, or him, without family connections...thus available for
whatever target practice any citizen or non-citizen might feel up to.
The law to which you are referring seem to protect current citizens, not
former ones.

That is not to say I support or in any way condone behaviour
unacceptable to the common schoolyard, much less so in a forum for
learned debate. Although I'm new around here, I must say that I think
such opinions should be stated in private, and not in the public, if
they need to be stated at all.

I am sorry, and I am truly ignorant in these matters. I realize I might
be
interfering where I have no business to, yet I feel that I wish to
participate in some small way to the current discussion. If I'm not part
of the solution, I might as well be a part of the problem. I would
prefer not to become a "quiet participant", but rather state my own
views and opionions.

Again, although I've no intention to do so, I apologize to those I might
have offended in my eagerness to be a part of something greater than any
one man.

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
cives Provincia Thule

--

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: A new member (I hope)
From:	mansker@--------
Date:	Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:59:14 -0000

Try this one . .

What do you get when you divide the circumference of an igloo by it's
radius?

Eskimo pi.

--- In novaroma@--------, gcassiusnerva@c... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/16/01 3:45:55 PM Pacific Standard Time,
--------ker@--------
> writes:
>
>
> > As I expect to make some mistakes during the first few weeks
(months,
> > years, decades, eons, etc),
>
> Just dont let yor mistakes be too severa! Ha ha! Sorry.....I
could not
> resist. It takes a lot of nerva to make stupid jokes.
>
> Gaius Cassius Nerva
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_[novaroma]_R=FCckgabe_der_B=FCrgerrechte?=
From:	Marcus Papirius Justus <papirius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 16 Mar 2001 19:21:41 -0500

At 12:02 AM 17/03/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>Salve Bürger der Provincia Germania,
>
>ich, Caius Valerius Opilio gebe hiermit bekannt, dass ich meine
>Bürgerrechte in der Provincia Germania und in der Nova Roma unwiderruflich
>zurückgebe.etc.

For those who can't read German, that's another resignation, this time
because NovaRoma is too "abstract" and inauthentic ...

mpj


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: On matters financial
From:	Amulius Equitius <Maximus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:23:49 -0600

Salve,
Perhaps instead of the separation of the classes
or maybe an addition to that idea is only the
citizens that pay the taxes are given the special
rights of a citizen( such as the right to vote, run
for office, et cetera.)
Vale
Amulius Equitius Germanicus

----- Original Message -----
>From : Ira Adams <iadams@-------->
Sent : Sun, 11 Mar 2001 11:34:14 -0600
To : novaroma@--------
Subject : Re: [novaroma] Re: On matters financial

><html><body>
<tt>
Salve 
 
It would require a revision of the Constitution,
but itwould bring us 
more into line with Roma Antiqua if we used
thedistinction between 
Patrician and Plebian for this purpose. 
 
Originally the Patrician families had the money,
ranthe government, and 
fought the wars. The Plebians just "also
livedthere," provided labor, 
and were allowed to fill unglorious roles in war
asscouts and 
skirmishers. 
 
It may seem odd to modern minds, but in early Rome
onlypeople of means 
were *allowed* to be inducted into the legions, for
tworeasons: (1) you 
had to have the money to furnish your own arms,
armor,transportation, 
and living arrangements; and (2) wars were a way
ofgaining wealth 
through booty, and the well-to-do wanted to keep
thelion's share of the 
booty for themselves. 
 
So if we let people who paid taxes be recognized
asPatricians, and 
reserved some "perks" for them alone,everyone else
who chose to be 
citizens but not to support the Republic through
taxeswould constitute 
the Plebians. 
 
This very idea, however, will outrage those who
want tohave *all* the 
privileges of citizenship but aren't willing to
forgo acouple of soft 
drinks to contribute money to support the
Republic. 
 
Vale, 
 
L. Sergius Aust. Obst. 
 
On 3/11/01 10:56 AM Teleri ferch Nyfain
(rckovak@--------) wrote: 
 
><<Iasonvs Serenvs Carolus wrote: 
> 
>Is it possible, within the parameters of the 
>constitution, to recognize degrees of
membershipin 
>Nova Roma? >>> 
> 
>In my experience with non-profit
organizations,there often are levels of 
>membership, such as associate members(no
dues,possibly?), voting members, 
>sustaining members(higher dues, but
includesnewsletter?), etc. This might 
>be something to think about. 
> 
>Valete 
>Helena Galeria 
> 
</tt>

 



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Mass Resignations??
From:	Craig Stevenson <dougies@-------->
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 11:34:21 +1030

Ave Claudia,

Honor does mean a lot to some people, which was, as I understand it, part of
some of the people's reasons for leaving.

Remeber, honor means different things to different people, and can be taken
in several different ways.

Vale,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

Claudia Octaviana wrote:

> --- Mia <tuozine@--------> wrote:
> >
> > I am also shocked by this wave of resignations. This
> > has me baffled and
> > disheartened, since I have recently been interested
> > in spending some
> > time developing my Gens and finding my place in Nova
> > Roma. Now I am
> > really confused and definitely feeling like I must
> > have missed
> > something.
> >
> > Ursula Numeria Fortunata
> > --
> >
>
> It's easy to bail on people you've never met or worked
> with in the flesh. You can easily turn your back on
> people you never had a chance to develope any
> relationships or loyalties with through working
> together. It's easy to walk away from dissagreements
> you had with anonymous email "pen-pals" states and
> oceans away.
>
> What's there to lose?
>
> Perhaps honor. Which doesn't mean a whole lot to some
> people.
>
> Sorry.
>
> Claudia
> LEG XI
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Fwd: A Precarious Pedicament......
From:	scriba_forum@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 02:00:22 -0000

---Salvete Novae Romae:

A lighthearted offering here, to add a bit more levity to the list.
This was an offering to the Muses List a few months ago. See if you
can figure it out :)!

Pompeia

A PRECARIOUS PREDICAMENT

........Or........."What Will YOU Do??"

Imagine, if you will......

You are the newly elected Senior Consul. It is a New Year's Day of
great
celebration and elation. The Sacrifices have been offered, the Omens
read.
The crowd's high volume of Aves is overwhelming. Your lictors stand
proud.
After a few moments of greeting the populus and receiving your
accolades,
you climb the set of stairs to your curule chair. You adjust the
folds of
your toga, and become seated.

A lictor hands you your speech. The content of your speech is
something you
weightedly pondered: You decided to go with some, well, rather
ambiguous,
politically inert philosophical rhetoric. Nobody will be cheesed off
by that
right?

You unroll the scroll. Here is your speech:

THAT THAT IS IS THAT THAT IS
NOT IS NOT THAT THAT IS IS
IS NOT IS NOT THAT THAT IS IS
THAT NOT SO

Below the speech is an adjunct notae from your Scriba.....

"I have been working without a contract for a year now. Your
predecessor
refused me a raise, saying the res Publica had no money for
nonessentials.
I tried contacting you regarding my situation, and my call has been
ignored.
Well, "nonessentials".......yah,right,..I don't exactly consider a
one
room domus in the Subura and a daily diet of millet and turnip to be
living
"high on the hog".

I am now "working to rule"...I am henceforth cutting back on my
workload as
follows: I will continue to write your speeches, but I am NOT going
to
punctuate them!

But I'm not completely heartless: Your speech will make perfect sense
if
you add: 4 commas
4 periods
1 question mark

I hope we can get together soon, Esteemed Consul, to discuss my
'nonesstentials'"
Buonum Diem!"...............

Can you make sense out of this speech?.... that is "before" the crowd
becomes suspicious that you just may not exactly have it
"altogether"???

**********************

______________________________________________________________________
___
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
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--- End forwarded message ---


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: A new member (I hope)
From:	"Acadien Errant" <acadienerrant@-------->
Date:	Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:13:10 -0600

Di caelestes!

Scripsit Novus Paene-Civis:

>Try this one . .

>What do you get when you divide the circumference of an igloo by it's
>radius?

>Eskimo pi.

Kanna aaqqaaqpaitchuaq! (North-Slope Alaskan Eskimo for “That there really
stank bad!!”) So why am I laughing so hard? :o)

Valete omnes, et gratias plurimas “Novus”!
Acadianus Draco

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Resignations
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 02:45:08 +0100

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

On the Idus Martiae Nova Roma suffered a heavy blow. Several of the
finest human beings among us left and shook the dust of Nova Roma
from their feet. They were mostly my friends and all persons whom I
admired intensely, and who had made great contributions to Nova Roma.

The timing seems to have been brought about by the symbolism of the
date itself; the sense of frustration and despair had been growing in
them, and the treatment at the hands of the Senate of perhaps our
finest governer, Livia Marcia Aurelia, who was not reappointed to her
position, had been the last straw for some.

If anyone here does not understand why they left, let me note that
of all the highest six magistrates in the Respublica, five are
"veterans", and only one (Diocletianus) is a homo novus. I would not
contest the reality of their election nor that some advantages may
accrue by having experienced persons in these positions. But I feel
as did Scaevola and all who left, that the founding and older
members, or some of them, have developed an old-boy network, an
oligarcy if you will, and that this close association of persons has
supported each other in getting their own way in almost everything
that matters to them.

Perhaps in some circumstances this would not matter so much, but in
fact getting their own way in some cases meant mistreatment of
ordinary citizens and minorities (sexual, political and linguisitic
for example). It was the case of Marius' wishing to change the gender
of his name and being persistently refused by the censor of the day
(and his predecessors) that first made me acutely aware that
persecution on the basis of sexual minority status not only occurred
here, but was not decisively dealt with by Senate or other
magistrates.

Such behaviour on the part of magistrates is against the evident
intent of our Constitution, but when there is no political will among
the oligarchy to enforce this adequately, it is meaningless. And the
voices of the citizenry can be ignored by the oligarchy whenever it
feels a bit determined to get its own way. And because the oligarchs
easily make themselves the most well-known persons in the State
through the positions they already have and their mutual promotion,
they can even expect to get the majorities of the (selectively
weighted) votes from cives who are new or who do not have the time to
keep up with everything going on here in detail over the months.

It is considerations like the above that made our compatriots leave.
I believe that it would not have happened if:

1) We had a strong and clear Bill of Rights with effective
enforcement mechanisms not in the hands of the oligarchy.

2) We could expect in a typical year that perhaps half of the top six
magistracies to be held by persons who had never held one of them
(for example both praetorships and one consulship). And that a
variety of political opinions be among them, not just passionate
disbelievers in democracy.

It is excessively difficult to bring about change at the top even
when that is a moral imperative for conscientious men and women, and
that will inevitably discourage conscientious men and women from
wishing to stay here for life and making a bigger contribution.

I very much support Cassius' idea of a Sodalitas Virtutum. (I might
even join it myself.) But virtue will not of itself remedy the
effects of an oligarchic political culture and mindset. Nova Roma
needs to open up to newer and different kinds of people, and power
and initiative has to be shared more widely among us. And above all,
if we want to exist in this century, we must meet the minimum
standards of human rights and treatment of minorities - this is
*Nova* Roma, after all, and is a micronation in this world and this
epoch.

Cassius has also promised us a Bill of Rights, and Fortunatus has a
similar idea. Let us see this idea too worked ont. For it would be
wrong to ignore such a loss to Nova Roma as the departure of these
citizens. Nova Roma *is* its citizens. And if *these* citizens could
be disgusted with the problems in our political system, others of the
same good character and conscientiousness will come into our
Respublica in the future, and having met with the same frustrations,
will also leave.

I beg everyone to take this seriously. There has to be change here
on a fundamental level. We have got to open up to new blood and we
have got to respect all the different sorts of people among us
equally. Nova Roma is a magnificent idea. But due to excessive
oligarchisation it just does not offer a stable and respectable
platform for our cultural, religious, and outreach activities. And
that is a great pity.

Remember the Ides of March - and please, learn something from it.
Soul searching is very much in order.

Valete!

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, Aedilis Plebeius Novae Romae
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius;
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________


Subject:	[novaroma] Announcement: Experimental new Chat Area
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:42:42 -0600 (CST)

Salvete Omnes,

The new Nova Roma chat room nears completion and is ready for
additional testing.

Anyone who is interested in seeing the new chat area,
helping to test it, and suggesting improvements is invited to:

http://www.novaroma.org/bin/chat/chat

To log in, you'll need your citizen ID number, which can be found
on your Album Civium profile page (click on your name in the
Album Civium) and password (which you can reset from the same
page, if you don't have one already).

Valete, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator


Subject:	=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5Bnovaroma=5D_R=FCckgabe_der_B=FCrgerrechte?=
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:58:17 -0800

Ave,

Thank you for the translation....The Censors appreciate your translation and
we will update the Album Civium.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marcus Papirius Justus" <papirius@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Rückgabe der Bürgerrechte

At 12:02 AM 17/03/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>Salve Bürger der Provincia Germania,
>
>ich, Caius Valerius Opilio gebe hiermit bekannt, dass ich meine
>Bürgerrechte in der Provincia Germania und in der Nova Roma unwiderruflich
>zurückgebe.etc.

For those who can't read German, that's another resignation, this time
because NovaRoma is too "abstract" and inauthentic ...

mpj

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Changes
From:	Piparskegg UllRsson <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Fri, 16 Mar 2001 20:52:52 -0600

Salvete Omnes et Ave Senator Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus,

LSergAust@-------- wrote:
>
> Salvete omnes
>
>(excision)
>
> These last two days I have been reminded of some lines from a saga
> of the Norse traditions. I am going from memory here - perhaps our
> friend Venator is more familiar with it and can correct my errors:
>
> Brother to brother bringeth his bane,
> Cousin with cousin breaketh kinship.
> Never a man spareth another,
> Hard grows the world - whoredom prevaileth,
> Axe-time and sword-time, shattering shields,
> Wind-time and wolf-time, ere the world waneth.
>
> (excision)
>

This is from the -Völuspá- alias the -Prophecy of the Seeress-.
In it, the Seeress remembers the beginning of all things and speaks
of the time to come when things would fray, the end of this cycle of being
happens in violence and the re-birth of new life takes place.

This is one of many translations, but preserves the meaning well.

--
===========================================
In Frith under Troth, may the Gods see you!
- Piparskeggr skjaldberi Ullar


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Changes
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:21:04 -0800

Salvete Omnes!
Did Roma Mater provide it's cives with the protection of a principle like,
innocent until proven guilty? If so, we should include that idea here and
assume no illegal act has occurred until proven so. Furthermore,today I
spoke with a client of mine who is an Assistant State Attorney General and
former judge. She assured me that unless an officer of the corporation made
a threat in their capacity as an officer no liability would be incurred by
the group. This was free legal advise in casual conversation, not a serious
consultation, but what she said made sense. I just want to help stop a
spread of panic over the liability issue before it happens.:)
Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

Join the America Boreoccidentalis Mailing List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason
for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
----- Original Message -----
From: <LSergAust@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Changes

>
> Salve Gaius Popillius
>
> It is a public matter. Nova Roma has a "dual reality" - it is a
> micronation but it is also a corporation and thus a legal entity under
> U.S. law. The Senate and magistrates are also the Board of Directors and
> officers of the corporation.
>
> Thus if anyone acting within the framework of the corporation is engaging
> in illegal or libelous activities, the corporation as a whole and its
> officers individually might be liable for prosecution or civil suit. I am
> a psychologist and *not* an attorney, so I might not be stating the
> legalities accurately, but I'm thinking I need to consult my attorney and
> decide if I am exposing myself to potential legal problems by continuing
> to be a part of the governance of Nova Roma Corporation.
>
> What I can say as a psychologist is that behavior has consequences,
> including behavior on the Internet, and I don't wish to suffer the
> consequences of someone else's misbehavior.
>
> Vale,
>
> L. Sergius Australicus Obst.
>
>
> On 3/16/01 12:28 PM ksterne@-------- (ksterne@--------) wrote:
>
> >Salve Lucius Sergius,
> >
> >>If I have to leave it will be because to stay here may
> >>expose me to legal liability as an officer of a real-world
> >>organization incorporated in the United States.<<<
> >
> >
> >Could you explain how? E-Mail me privately if you wish.
> >
> >Gratia.
> >
> >Vale,
> >Gaius Popillius Laenas
> >Citizen
> >
>
>
> certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
>
> (You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Changes
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 16 Mar 2001 23:26:14 -0800

Ave,

Thank you for that information. I know that helps me understand my
liabilities, and extent of my liability, as a member of the Board of
Directors (ie. Senate).

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 11:21 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Changes

> Salvete Omnes!
> Did Roma Mater provide it's cives with the protection of a principle like,
> innocent until proven guilty? If so, we should include that idea here and
> assume no illegal act has occurred until proven so. Furthermore,today I
> spoke with a client of mine who is an Assistant State Attorney General and
> former judge. She assured me that unless an officer of the corporation
made
> a threat in their capacity as an officer no liability would be incurred by
> the group. This was free legal advise in casual conversation, not a
serious
> consultation, but what she said made sense. I just want to help stop a
> spread of panic over the liability issue before it happens.:)
> Lucius Mauricius Procopious
> Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
> procopious@--------
> ICQ# 83516618
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The Gens Mauricia
> http://www.geocities.com/procopious
>
> Join the America Boreoccidentalis Mailing List
> http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> "Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
> affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the
reason
> for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
> to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
> decide for himself according to his taste."
> -Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <LSergAust@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 10:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Changes
>
>
> >
> > Salve Gaius Popillius
> >
> > It is a public matter. Nova Roma has a "dual reality" - it is a
> > micronation but it is also a corporation and thus a legal entity under
> > U.S. law. The Senate and magistrates are also the Board of Directors and
> > officers of the corporation.
> >
> > Thus if anyone acting within the framework of the corporation is
engaging
> > in illegal or libelous activities, the corporation as a whole and its
> > officers individually might be liable for prosecution or civil suit. I
am
> > a psychologist and *not* an attorney, so I might not be stating the
> > legalities accurately, but I'm thinking I need to consult my attorney
and
> > decide if I am exposing myself to potential legal problems by continuing
> > to be a part of the governance of Nova Roma Corporation.
> >
> > What I can say as a psychologist is that behavior has consequences,
> > including behavior on the Internet, and I don't wish to suffer the
> > consequences of someone else's misbehavior.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > L. Sergius Australicus Obst.
> >
> >
> > On 3/16/01 12:28 PM ksterne@-------- (ksterne@--------) wrote:
> >
> > >Salve Lucius Sergius,
> > >
> > >>If I have to leave it will be because to stay here may
> > >>expose me to legal liability as an officer of a real-world
> > >>organization incorporated in the United States.<<<
> > >
> > >
> > >Could you explain how? E-Mail me privately if you wish.
> > >
> > >Gratia.
> > >
> > >Vale,
> > >Gaius Popillius Laenas
> > >Citizen
> > >
> >
> >
> > certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
> >
> > (You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


Subject:	Fire (was Re: [novaroma] Dark Days)
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 09:50:56 +0100

Salve Priscilla Vedia,

>
> >>This is a loss for the republic of Nova Roma, and a sad victory for
those
> petty people who have engaged in brutal insults,
> death threats, coterie, bigotry, power games, dubious practises and power
> abuse.>>
>
> I very much agree that the loss of *any* citizens is a loss for the nation
> as a whole. I would have much preferred they remain among us, but they
have
> made their choices and I respect them for it. However, no one here has
> declared a *victory* of any sort and I am saddened to see you propagate
old
> divisions by implying that any celebration is taking place. Accusations
and
> allegations such as those you list above have been the source of trouble
for
> quite some time now on several fronts. I would respectfully suggest you
> refrain from making such allegations, especially those as serious as
"death
> threats" unless you have some hard evidence to back them up. I ask that
of
> you only in the regard of responsibility. If, indeed, such were made and
> such atrocious actions taken, let the proof come forward or leave the
rumors
> in the dust.

I concede that I have exaggerated because I was in a rather sad mood, but
the core of it remains standing. Purely for reasons not to start a long
conflict here on the main list I didn't go deeper into this subject, but if
you want the details of my evidence for my claims, feel free to contact me
off list.

> >>No, the leavers weren't perfect, they were human like you and I, but at
> least they were integre, honest, dedicated and enthusiastic for New
Rome.>>
>
> I agree with you that those who have left share those attributes. However,
> to imply that those who remain do not is unfair to the 780 plus citizens
who
> make up our fair nation. I am proud and honored to say that we are a
nation
> blessed with much integrity, honor, dedication and heaps of enthusiasm. I
> would respectfully ask you to once again step back from an "us or them"
> mentality and not make such statements. Haven't we seen enough discord
and
> division?

You're right. There are other people as well who are shining examples of
integrity and enthusiasm. But the largest part of the 780 plus cives you are
referring to remain in the shadows, and don't do anything at all. I still
admire the concepts of Nova Roma, and I wouldn't have stayed if I didn't
like it so.

> >>I will stay in Nova Roma, to right those wrongs that these good people
who
> are now leaving have suffered. I will stay, with my head held high, in
> memory of those who've put their energy in defending their Roman dreams
from
> the pettiness of others. I will stay, to defend their names from slander
> from any backstabber or shadow assassin.>>
>
> I will say sincerely that I am glad you wish to stay among us. I believe
you
> have much to offer! I will also say though, with equal honesty, that I
wish
> your motives were different. Rather than stay to "fight some cause" or
> "defend against" attacks that have not come, I truly wish you could say
you
> were staying because you have a vision for Nova Roma that you wish to help
> build. That you were staying to have input and to contribute and to
> *celebrate* all that we are. We need good people with a passion for all
> things Roman. We do not need any more division. Now, if I have somehow
> mistaken your intentions, I apologize. But as it reads above, I do
question
> whether you stay to be of benefit and enjoy your time here or if you stay
to
> foster the strife and stresses of the past. There is so much good you
can
> do here that I truly hope you are deciding to stay "for" the positive, not
> "in spite of" the negative. Something to think about at the very least.

Of course I will always try to remain constructive, but you have to admit
that the departure of these people has caused mixed reactions, and it
angered me to see that some people who reacted didn't even know the leavers
personally, yet felt the urge to shoot an arrow in their backs. It's not my
point to start a crusade and destroy Nova Roma, because in the end I would
only destroy myself, but I sincerely want to make this a better place and
prevent such loss from happening in the future. That's the fuel of my fire.

Vale bene,
Draco


Subject:	[novaroma] Sodalitas Musarum Website -Version 1.0 Released
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 01:23:09 -0800

Salvete Quiritibus;

It is my great pleasure to formally announce the grand opening
of the new Sodalitas Musarum website! It's been a while in the
works, but my hope is that it will be well received and be an
effort that is worthy of the great and gifted artists that bless
our wonderful organization.

My special thanks to Lucilla Cornelia Cinna for providing
much of the artwork; especially some of the newer graphics
for the various collegia which she did by hand and are superb;
to our esteemed officers and artists; Aeternia Iulia
Caesaria Scorpina Draconia et S. Apollonius Draco who have
provided not only many excellent artworks to share with the world, but have
also helped us remain constant and weather the storms -and
for all the other artists who have contributed works such
as Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator, Domna Claudia Auspicita, Pompeia
Cornelia Strabo and others. To you all I say a hearty Gratias Multas!
With out your guidance and artworks; we would have no website to
share.

Please note that the URL will likely change once more once
we've completed the transition to our new musarum domain.
Also, in the future we have a great many more works to
publish on the site; what you see on version 1.0 is just
a small portion of the works I have yet to convert and
post. Hope you all enjoy this friends and Romans!

http://musarum.konoko.net

Bene valete,
-Oppius Flaccus Severus, Retarius Sodalitas Musarum


Subject:	[novaroma] unsubscribe novaroma
From:	"Luis Pinho" <rdd64942@-------->
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 09:40:27 -0000

I don´t wish to receive more messages.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Crime and punishment
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 11:00:17 +0100

>Salve,
>
>I am new to Nova Roma, and not at all familiar with the laws and
>regulations applying in this situation, nor with your sociopolitical
>situation. I therefore apologize beforehand, should I in any way offend
>anyone in any way.

Salve Honorable Titus Octavius Pius, cives Provincia Thule!

First of all I want to wish You welcome to our beloved Res Publica! As You
are my friend since long, both in real life and on the web, I want to, as
your elder, give You a couple of advice.

Firstly; it is brave and upright of You to take a stand even as a new
citizen! I wish more of the older citizens were as active and
straight-forward! Continue to do so!

Secondly; it is also wise to sit down and listen and read, there are many
complicated relations and some complicated Leges and Edicts to read at the
Tabularium and quite many mails in the archives to read. I have been here
for about seven months and I still have a lot to learn! I will of course be
glad to help You in this case. I have found friends among the elder cives
who have guided me, now it is my turn to help a new cives! You are welcome
over to me some evening as we have only 4 - 5 km between us! Not many in
Nova Roma are that close! ;-)

your friend

Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus
cives Provincia Thule
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=FCckgabe?= der =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=FCrgerrechte?=
From:	Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@-------->
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 11:17:37 +0100

Salve,

thank you, Marce Papiri Juste, for your quick reaction and translation.
I know it would by my job, but you were faster :-).

Vale
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Praetor Germaniae

"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" wrote:
>
> Ave,
>
> Thank you for the translation....The Censors appreciate your translation and
> we will update the Album Civium.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Censor of Nova Roma
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marcus Papirius Justus" <papirius@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 4:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Rückgabe der Bürgerrechte
>
> At 12:02 AM 17/03/2001 +0100, you wrote:
> >Salve Bürger der Provincia Germania,
> >
> >ich, Caius Valerius Opilio gebe hiermit bekannt, dass ich meine
> >Bürgerrechte in der Provincia Germania und in der Nova Roma unwiderruflich
> >zurückgebe.etc.
>
> For those who can't read German, that's another resignation, this time
> because NovaRoma is too "abstract" and inauthentic ...
>
> mpj
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A new morning...
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 10:59:39 +0100

Salve,

> There is only one Sodalitas, on the Muses List, and that is the Sodalitas
> Musarum...If you're intrested in joining or you're curious about it..Feel
free
> to contact me privately.

There are other Sodalitates, too:

Sodalitas Latinitatis
Sodalitas Militarium
Sodalitas pro Coqueror et Coqinuus (sp?)
Sodalitas Egressus
Sodalitas Munerum (under construction)

Vale bene,
Draco


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: On matters financial
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 11:01:07 +0100

Salve Amuli Equiti,

> Salve,
> Perhaps instead of the separation of the classes
> or maybe an addition to that idea is only the
> citizens that pay the taxes are given the special
> rights of a citizen( such as the right to vote, run
> for office, et cetera.)
> Vale
> Amulius Equitius Germanicus

This idea has been rejected by the population a few months ago already.

Vale bene,
Draco


Subject:	[novaroma] New NR Live Chat is Excellent! :)
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 08:16:21 EST

Salvete,

Last night I was able to spend half an hour or so in the new Nova Roma Live
Chat area designed by Marcus Octavius Germanicus at:<A HREF="http://www.novaroma.org/bin/chat/chat">

http://www.novaroma.org/bin/chat/chat</A>

What can I say but WOW!!!! The chat has eliminated virtually all of the
problems that we've had with the Beseen.com chatroom linked through the
NovaRoma site.
I don't believe I know all the good features of this new chat, but here are a
few:

I. Everyone logged on is "visible" on a list, so no one can "lurk" and just
listen to conversation.

II. Nobody can pretend to be anyone else, since all Citizens log on with
their own ID number, (which you set up on your own entry in the Album Civium
page on the NR website).

III. As far as I know, the new chat will be far better protected from
"hackers" trying to post disruptive messages.

IV. You can send "private" messages to other folks in the chat *without the
other participants seeing that you've done this*! In the Beseen chat, a
message would pop up saying "so and so whispers to so and so". This was very
disruptive. Every time you whispered to somebody it always looked like you
were being impolite, perhaps even trading comments about the other
participants. Trouble was most folks were trying to BE polite, by not
crowding the list with trivial chat like "Did you get my email about that
delightful Roman pheasant recipe?" These private messages show up in bright
yellow boxes, so that neither you or the person you send to get confused.

V. In the new chat, folks *complete* Roman name is visible. MUCH better than
"chat handles", where you could never quite figure out who many folks were.

VI. Your messages in the new chat show up in outlined boxes, making it far
easier to separate who's said what.

VII. Octavius says folks will still be able to log on as "guests", so that
prospective new Citizens can still check us out by talking to Citizens in
'real time'.

There may even be a few more features that I didn't check out, or am
forgetting to mention. The point is that Nova Roma now has a dependable chat
that is fun to use, and that eliminates most if not all of the problems that
made the old chat unpleasant!

I imagine the new chat will be linked to the "Forum Romanum" page on the main
website soon. In the meantime, I hope that Octavius will be able to leave the
link above up until that happens, so that more folks can check out this new
resource!

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] New NR Live Chat is Excellent! :)
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 14:24:11 +0100

Salve Consul Cassi et Octavi,

Very, very good work. Wonderful.

Valete optime,
Draco


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] New NR Live Chat is Excellent! :)
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 14:24:11 +0100

Salve Consul Cassi et Octavi,

Very, very good work. Wonderful.

Valete optime,
Draco


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Changes
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 14:55:46 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, LSergAust@a... wrote:
>
> Salve Gaius Popillius
>
> It is a public matter. Nova Roma has a "dual reality" - it is a
> micronation but it is also a corporation and thus a legal entity under
> U.S. law. The Senate and magistrates are also the Board of Directors
and
> officers of the corporation.
>
> Thus if anyone acting within the framework of the corporation is
engaging
> in illegal or libelous activities, the corporation as a whole and its
> officers individually might be liable for prosecution or civil suit.
I am
> a psychologist and *not* an attorney, so I might not be stating the
> legalities accurately, but I'm thinking I need to consult my
attorney and
> decide if I am exposing myself to potential legal problems by
continuing
> to be a part of the governance of Nova Roma Corporation.
>
> What I can say as a psychologist is that behavior has consequences,
> including behavior on the Internet, and I don't wish to suffer the
> consequences of someone else's misbehavior.
>
> Vale,
>
> L. Sergius Australicus Obst.

Salvete,
First, I am not a lawyer!
However I have looked into the legal aspects of organzations like Nova
Roma and the internet.
Lucius Sergius is correct that he and other officers of the Nova Roma
corporation (as opposed to the micronation) can be held legaly
responsible for actions commited in the name of the corporation.

There are some ways that the officers can protect themselves and the
corporation, and I suggest that Nova Roma take these steps to protect
herself.

The best soulation would of course be having our sovergnity recognized
and gaining the immunity that entails, however that is NOT going to
happen in the near future.

1.) We need a strict policy seprating offical statements made by the
officers on behalf of the corporation from private statements made by
someone who happens to be an officer. Many Companies require that
disclaimer be attached to private opinions so there is no doubt that
the indiviual is speaking on thier own behalf, and not as an officer
of the corporation. This usualy takes the form of a signiture file
attached to posts and e-mail stating "The Opinions expressed are my
own, and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma" This should be required
from anyone holding an offical postion, from Censore, to Scriba.

2.) We need offical bylaws prohibiting actions that could result in
court action against the corporation or the officers. For our purposes
this would take the form of a series of leges. For example a lex
regarding defamation of character. This would provide a defense that
the action was contrary to to Nova Roma's bylaws, and while the
indiviual who commited the act may be held libel, the corporation was
not at fault.

3.) Due to past actions Nova Roma can't claim common carrier status in
a lawsuit regarding slander. We need to have better control of the
Main List and any other offical lists, ie the Comittia lists. Up to
now lawsuits against internet organizations have involved requests to
remove the libelous post. The same holds for posts that violate
copyright laws. Since we need full controll of the list archives to
protect ourselves all offical lists should be on the Nova Roma servers
so the modarator(s) have full controll of the lists. Nova Roma needs
to make it plain that any non-offical lists that remain on yahoo
groups are private and have no offical connection to Nova Roma. Since
"Nova Roma" is trademaked, this would take the form of requesting that
Yahoo groups remove any group that is using the name "Nova Roma"
without carrying a disclaimer that it is a private group and has no
offical connection to the Nova Roma corporation.

4.) Some have suggested that the offical lists be multi-lingual. While
I fully support the concept, the legal reality is we have to have
modarators for any languge that is posted to offical lists. Any
offical lists need to be limited to posts that are in a language that
has an offically apointed modarator.

In closing I also urge that all citizens remember the advice of Divus
Augustus, that when you are angry, stop and recite the 23 letters of
the alphabet before replying. In other words stop and think about your
post, rather than firing something off in anger, that may have bad
consequences for yourself and Nova Roma.

Valete,
Lucius Sicinius Drusus


Subject:	[novaroma] To your keyboards citizens
From:	laurentibusnova@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 10:59:11 EST

Salvete Omnes,

In the aftermath of what has been for me a dies horribilis I am rising again
and have decided to get back to work, not only to occupy my mind but also to
send a clear sign that I will now cooperate with anybody who really wants to
bring Nova Roma towards a brighter future. I will put past disputes on the
side and pretend that petty fight and bitter words are a rare occurence
among us, and all for the sake of us all.

I am now resuming my duties as rogator and as stated in previous statements
I have set up an E-mail address on which all citizens can answer a few
simple questions. These answers will help me understand how our fellow
citizens regard the voting process currently in place and therefore give us
tools, when the results are produced, to improve upon it and achieve a
better and greater participation in the life of the Republic. As I read in a
recent post (I can't remember where!)Nova Roma will be what we make of it.
May I add that, whatever it becomes, let's make sure that as many people are
involved in its development.

The question I would like many of our citizens to answer is :

1. DO YOU PARTICIPATE ON THE REGULAR BASIS IN THE ELECTIONS ORGANISED IN NOVA
ROMA?

# IF YES, PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT DRIVES YOU TO BE INVOLVED.

# IF NO, PLEASE STATE THE REASONS THAT TURN YOU OFF FROM IT.

For the sake of confidentiality I have, as mentioned above, set up and
E-mail address where you can send your answer :

votingNRsurvey@--------

That will also prevent the main list to be congested with too many posts!
Please use the E-mail address provided only...

The survey will end on Nonas Maias (may 7th) and results will be published on
the main list after communication to our executive magistrates. It
will, I hope, give all of us enough working material to improve our young
democracy.

This message will be published on a regular basis for those of us who do not
check their mail very often or when our computers decide to have a life of
their own...

I would also appreciate any comments on this subject to help me better this
ongoing survey. Off list again please!!!

Bene Valete

Cornelius Moravius Laurentibus
Rogator
"VOTING IS A RIGHT. IT IS ALSO A DUTY."

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] A query to the leaders of NR!
From:	"Quintus Augustus" <quintus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 11:23:20 -0500

Salvete~

Would it be possible for our leaders to send out a post to all citizens
containing a listing of all who has left, and the posts needed to be
filled?
It was a loss, yes. I would be lieing if i said i understood why these
cives chose to leave. It is my *opinion* that one should NEVER turn and
run from a fight - it is far better to take a lashing with the ability
to defend ones self, rather than get stabbe in the back.(i step off my
soapbox)
Never the less, it is time to look at the damages, and begin repairs.

Bereavement is over....

~*~
Quintus Augustus
Citizen of Nova Roma
Centurion Legio VI C.III
quintus@-------- - email
(212) 894-3746 x9127 - voicemail/fax
Roma est Lux!!!!!

__________________________________________________
FREE voicemail, email, and fax...all in one place.
Sign Up Now! http://www.onebox.com


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: On matters financial
From:	Matt Haase <haase@-------->
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 10:55:21 -0600 (CST)

Salve Sexte Apolloni,

> > Perhaps instead of the separation of the classes
> > or maybe an addition to that idea is only the
> > citizens that pay the taxes are given the special
> > rights of a citizen( such as the right to vote, run
> > for office, et cetera.)
>
> This idea has been rejected by the population a few months ago already.

Sorry, but you are mistaken. The people as a whole never considered it.
The proposal was opposed by a small handful of individuals, mostly
political candidates. These had not been elected to speak as
representatives of the People.

This issue has never been put to a vote among the people, and only if
it is, and if it fails there, can you honestly say it was rejected
"by the population".

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator


Subject:	[novaroma] Hell the Moravii!
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 18:04:35 +0100

>Salvete,
>
>It is with a broken heart and from a broken home that I write today. My whole
>family has gone, leaving me with responsabilities and duties I am not sure to
>be fully prepared for. My illustrious father left me in charge of the gens
>Moravia and I shall try not to disappoint him in keeping the spirit of our
>family alive in ouR republic.
>In the light of such sad events, I am once again, as I did when I first
>appeared in the forum, asking for all people of good will to unite and work
>together to make this community a better place of worship and cultural
>enlightment. I call all our friends to join in expressing our grief for the
>loss of loved ones. I call all our oponents to set aside, as I will, our
>technical misunderstandings so we can at last, in the memory of these great
>men, achieve what we are all here for : make the roman spirit and virtues
>shine again.
>
>Before I retire for a few days I would like to thank all of our citizens who
>have expressed sympathy to my lost parents and siblings. It means a lot to me
>and to them. A personnal thanks also to Marcus Audens and Fortunatus : You
>will remain forever friends to the Moravii.
>
>Bene Valete et Multas Gratias
>
>Cornelius Moravius Laurentibus
>Paterfamilias
>Rogator
>"VOTING IS A RIGHT. IT IS ALSO A DUTY"

Salve Illustrus Rogator Cornelius Moravius Laurentibus!

I will express my sadnes because of the departure of your Pater familias
and the other members of your family! I wish those who departed well, but I
also wish You who decided to stay good luck! I hope your gens will thrive
and I here openly declare to be your friend and a friend of your family!
Let us fight and work for the improvement of the Res Publica!

I think that your work

Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus
cives Provincia Thule

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
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************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
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MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
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PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] To your keyboards citizens
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 09:12:19 -0800

Salvete Corneli Moravi Laurentibe et Quiritibus;

An excellent idea! We can only benefit from gaining insights
into why/why not cives come to vote in our esteemed elections.
I'll be sending off my response this weekend to your survey
list and would strongly encourage everyone else to do so as
well.

Bene Valete,
-Oppius Flaccus Severus

-----Original Message-----
From: laurentibusnova@-------- [mailto:laurentibusnova@--------]
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 7:59 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] To your keyboards citizens

Salvete Omnes,

In the aftermath of what has been for me a dies horribilis I am rising again
and have decided to get back to work, not only to occupy my mind but also to
send a clear sign that I will now cooperate with anybody who really wants to
bring Nova Roma towards a brighter future. I will put past disputes on the
side and pretend that petty fight and bitter words are a rare occurence
among us, and all for the sake of us all.

I am now resuming my duties as rogator and as stated in previous statements
I have set up an E-mail address on which all citizens can answer a few
simple questions. These answers will help me understand how our fellow
citizens regard the voting process currently in place and therefore give us
tools, when the results are produced, to improve upon it and achieve a
better and greater participation in the life of the Republic. As I read in a
recent post (I can't remember where!)Nova Roma will be what we make of it.
May I add that, whatever it becomes, let's make sure that as many people are
involved in its development.

The question I would like many of our citizens to answer is :

1. DO YOU PARTICIPATE ON THE REGULAR BASIS IN THE ELECTIONS ORGANISED IN
NOVA
ROMA?

# IF YES, PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT DRIVES YOU TO BE INVOLVED.

# IF NO, PLEASE STATE THE REASONS THAT TURN YOU OFF FROM IT.

For the sake of confidentiality I have, as mentioned above, set up and
E-mail address where you can send your answer :

votingNRsurvey@--------

That will also prevent the main list to be congested with too many posts!
Please use the E-mail address provided only...

The survey will end on Nonas Maias (may 7th) and results will be published
on
the main list after communication to our executive magistrates. It
will, I hope, give all of us enough working material to improve our young
democracy.

This message will be published on a regular basis for those of us who do not
check their mail very often or when our computers decide to have a life of
their own...

I would also appreciate any comments on this subject to help me better this
ongoing survey. Off list again please!!!

Bene Valete

Cornelius Moravius Laurentibus
Rogator
"VOTING IS A RIGHT. IT IS ALSO A DUTY."

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Announcement: Experimental new Chat Area
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 09:43:32 -0800

Salvete Marce Octavi et Quiritibus;

Just made a dry run at the new chat venue. I must say Marce Octavi-
NICE JOB! It even seems to handle extreme verbosity well, which is always
a concern when trying a new chat venue. Also, the features for being to send
messages to individuals and linking the citizen# with their NR web profile
are nice and welcome touches. I'll definitely look forward to
enjoying and using it in the future. Gratias multas!

Bene valete,
-Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus [mailto:haase@--------]
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 6:43 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Announcement: Experimental new Chat Area

Salvete Omnes,

The new Nova Roma chat room nears completion and is ready for
additional testing.

Anyone who is interested in seeing the new chat area,
helping to test it, and suggesting improvements is invited to:

http://www.novaroma.org/bin/chat/chat

To log in, you'll need your citizen ID number, which can be found
on your Album Civium profile page (click on your name in the
Album Civium) and password (which you can reset from the same
page, if you don't have one already).

Valete, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator


Subject:	[novaroma] Stepping Forward
From:	V_Praetoria@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 16:44:59 -0000

Avete Omnes,

Greetings brothers and sisters. With the rash of resignations,
allegations, threats, and insults, we have achieved a great dream.
We have created the Roman Republic. Congratulations. But is this
what we wanted? I agree with Quintus Augustus, a list should be
compiled of what positions need to be filled. I personally wish to
become active in a political sense. As the founder of the RHS, I
hope to start working on a compact with Nova Roma, to make the two
entities mutually work together. So with this letter, I once again
step forward to offer my assistance, aid, and honor to build Nova
Roma into the greatest Society ever. This are not boasts, but rather
passionate feelings. We have the opportunity to encourage, inspire,
and lead our citizens into a new Golden Age. But we will need strong
leaders, ones who will stand up against the "mob", and remain
vigilant and honest. We must embrace new ideas, remove dogmatic
attitudes, and always move forward. The average cive is our life
blood. Those are who we should be working for. If we just think of
Nova Roma as a forum for Roman enthusiasts, then thats all it will
ever be. As the founder of the Roman Historical Society, I have
taken a small group of individuals with little or no knowledge of
Rome, and made then literate and skilled soldiers. I have gone non-
profit, and I am awaiting a grant that would help procure reading
materiel, armor, standards, and cover the costs of reserving space so
I can take the RHS to the public. My credentials speak for
themselves. I hope this letter shows my passion and enthusiasm for
what Nova Roma can be, what it will be.

Alea jacta est, dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.

Pontius Sejanus Marius


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Stepping Forward
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 13:23:54 -0600 (CST)

Salve,

> I agree with Quintus Augustus, a list should be
> compiled of what positions need to be filled.

We need to fill these positions:

Tribune of the Plebs (1 of 2 needed)

Backup Rogator
(An Active Rogator quit, so the senior backup automatically
moved up to Active, and thus the backup needs replacing).

Propraetor Britanniae
Only citizens or residents of Britain.

Propraetor America Austroccidentalis (southwest US)

There are several other propraetorships open, due to the disappearance
of several other governors. See
http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/provinciae

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] To your keyboards citizens
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 13:38:00 -0600

I too, echo Opiuss. Outstanding idea, Cornelius

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 11:12 AM
Subject: RE: [novaroma] To your keyboards citizens

> Salvete Corneli Moravi Laurentibe et Quiritibus;
>
> An excellent idea! We can only benefit from gaining insights
> into why/why not cives come to vote in our esteemed elections.
> I'll be sending off my response this weekend to your survey
> list and would strongly encourage everyone else to do so as
> well.
>
> Bene Valete,
> -Oppius Flaccus Severus
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: laurentibusnova@-------- [mailto:laurentibusnova@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 7:59 AM
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] To your keyboards citizens
>
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> In the aftermath of what has been for me a dies horribilis I am rising
again
> and have decided to get back to work, not only to occupy my mind but also
to
> send a clear sign that I will now cooperate with anybody who really wants
to
> bring Nova Roma towards a brighter future. I will put past disputes on the
> side and pretend that petty fight and bitter words are a rare occurence
> among us, and all for the sake of us all.
>
> I am now resuming my duties as rogator and as stated in previous
statements
> I have set up an E-mail address on which all citizens can answer a few
> simple questions. These answers will help me understand how our fellow
> citizens regard the voting process currently in place and therefore give
us
> tools, when the results are produced, to improve upon it and achieve a
> better and greater participation in the life of the Republic. As I read in
a
> recent post (I can't remember where!)Nova Roma will be what we make of it.
> May I add that, whatever it becomes, let's make sure that as many people
are
> involved in its development.
>
> The question I would like many of our citizens to answer is :
>
> 1. DO YOU PARTICIPATE ON THE REGULAR BASIS IN THE ELECTIONS ORGANISED IN
> NOVA
> ROMA?
>
> # IF YES, PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT DRIVES YOU TO BE INVOLVED.
>
> # IF NO, PLEASE STATE THE REASONS THAT TURN YOU OFF FROM IT.
>
> For the sake of confidentiality I have, as mentioned above, set up and
> E-mail address where you can send your answer :
>
> votingNRsurvey@--------
>
> That will also prevent the main list to be congested with too many posts!
> Please use the E-mail address provided only...
>
> The survey will end on Nonas Maias (may 7th) and results will be published
> on
> the main list after communication to our executive magistrates. It
> will, I hope, give all of us enough working material to improve our young
> democracy.
>
> This message will be published on a regular basis for those of us who do
not
> check their mail very often or when our computers decide to have a life of
> their own...
>
> I would also appreciate any comments on this subject to help me better
this
> ongoing survey. Off list again please!!!
>
> Bene Valete
>
> Cornelius Moravius Laurentibus
> Rogator
> "VOTING IS A RIGHT. IT IS ALSO A DUTY."
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Stepping Forward
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 13:49:06 -0600

It is truly great to see so many citizens stepping forward to fill those
positions that have been abandoned! This shows that our Republic is still
vibrant, even if some can not agree.

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: <V_Praetoria@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 10:44 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Stepping Forward

> Avete Omnes,
>
> Greetings brothers and sisters. With the rash of resignations,
> allegations, threats, and insults, we have achieved a great dream.
> We have created the Roman Republic. Congratulations. But is this
> what we wanted? I agree with Quintus Augustus, a list should be
> compiled of what positions need to be filled. I personally wish to
> become active in a political sense. As the founder of the RHS, I
> hope to start working on a compact with Nova Roma, to make the two
> entities mutually work together. So with this letter, I once again
> step forward to offer my assistance, aid, and honor to build Nova
> Roma into the greatest Society ever. This are not boasts, but rather
> passionate feelings. We have the opportunity to encourage, inspire,
> and lead our citizens into a new Golden Age. But we will need strong
> leaders, ones who will stand up against the "mob", and remain
> vigilant and honest. We must embrace new ideas, remove dogmatic
> attitudes, and always move forward. The average cive is our life
> blood. Those are who we should be working for. If we just think of
> Nova Roma as a forum for Roman enthusiasts, then thats all it will
> ever be. As the founder of the Roman Historical Society, I have
> taken a small group of individuals with little or no knowledge of
> Rome, and made then literate and skilled soldiers. I have gone non-
> profit, and I am awaiting a grant that would help procure reading
> materiel, armor, standards, and cover the costs of reserving space so
> I can take the RHS to the public. My credentials speak for
> themselves. I hope this letter shows my passion and enthusiasm for
> what Nova Roma can be, what it will be.
>
> Alea jacta est, dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.
>
> Pontius Sejanus Marius
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] To your keyboards citizens
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 13:53:40 -0600

Sorry about misspelling your name Oppius! I have never been so embarrassed!

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] To your keyboards citizens

> I too, echo Opiuss. Outstanding idea, Cornelius
>
> QS
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 11:12 AM
> Subject: RE: [novaroma] To your keyboards citizens
>
>
> > Salvete Corneli Moravi Laurentibe et Quiritibus;
> >
> > An excellent idea! We can only benefit from gaining insights
> > into why/why not cives come to vote in our esteemed elections.
> > I'll be sending off my response this weekend to your survey
> > list and would strongly encourage everyone else to do so as
> > well.
> >
> > Bene Valete,
> > -Oppius Flaccus Severus
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: laurentibusnova@-------- [mailto:laurentibusnova@--------]
> > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 7:59 AM
> > To: novaroma@--------
> > Subject: [novaroma] To your keyboards citizens
> >
> >
> > Salvete Omnes,
> >
> > In the aftermath of what has been for me a dies horribilis I am rising
> again
> > and have decided to get back to work, not only to occupy my mind but
also
> to
> > send a clear sign that I will now cooperate with anybody who really
wants
> to
> > bring Nova Roma towards a brighter future. I will put past disputes on
the
> > side and pretend that petty fight and bitter words are a rare occurence
> > among us, and all for the sake of us all.
> >
> > I am now resuming my duties as rogator and as stated in previous
> statements
> > I have set up an E-mail address on which all citizens can answer a few
> > simple questions. These answers will help me understand how our fellow
> > citizens regard the voting process currently in place and therefore give
> us
> > tools, when the results are produced, to improve upon it and achieve a
> > better and greater participation in the life of the Republic. As I read
in
> a
> > recent post (I can't remember where!)Nova Roma will be what we make of
it.
> > May I add that, whatever it becomes, let's make sure that as many people
> are
> > involved in its development.
> >
> > The question I would like many of our citizens to answer is :
> >
> > 1. DO YOU PARTICIPATE ON THE REGULAR BASIS IN THE ELECTIONS ORGANISED IN
> > NOVA
> > ROMA?
> >
> > # IF YES, PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT DRIVES YOU TO BE INVOLVED.
> >
> > # IF NO, PLEASE STATE THE REASONS THAT TURN YOU OFF FROM IT.
> >
> > For the sake of confidentiality I have, as mentioned above, set up and
> > E-mail address where you can send your answer :
> >
> > votingNRsurvey@--------
> >
> > That will also prevent the main list to be congested with too many
posts!
> > Please use the E-mail address provided only...
> >
> > The survey will end on Nonas Maias (may 7th) and results will be
published
> > on
> > the main list after communication to our executive magistrates. It
> > will, I hope, give all of us enough working material to improve our
young
> > democracy.
> >
> > This message will be published on a regular basis for those of us who do
> not
> > check their mail very often or when our computers decide to have a life
of
> > their own...
> >
> > I would also appreciate any comments on this subject to help me better
> this
> > ongoing survey. Off list again please!!!
> >
> > Bene Valete
> >
> > Cornelius Moravius Laurentibus
> > Rogator
> > "VOTING IS A RIGHT. IT IS ALSO A DUTY."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Documents of Citizenship
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 15:56:14 -0500

Salvete

I think this a wonderful idea. I agree that the more tangible, physical
ties to Nova Roma, the more 'real' citizenship becomes. Symbols have a
great deal of power psychologically.

Valete,
Helena Galeria


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Changes
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 17:06:39 EST

Salve Lucius Mauricius

I appreciate your reassurance, but....
The principle of "innocent until proven guilty" applies to the *person*
accused of a crime, and not to the question of whether a crime has
occurred.

We don't even know whether either of the acts in question even happened,
so it is a bit early to start thinking about accusing anyone of
committing them. I am merely saying that if such acts are occurring, it
is a grave matter.

On 3/17/01 1:21 AM Lucius Mauricius Procopious (procopious@--------)
wrote:

>Salvete Omnes!
IF
>Did Roma Mater provide it's cives with the protection of a principle like,
>innocent until proven guilty?
THEN
>If so, we should ...
>assume no illegal act has occurred until proven so.
seems to be without logical connection.

To follow this idea, we would have to hold a trial before an
investigation, since we could not assume that there was anything to
investigate until it had been already proven.

>Furthermore,today I
>spoke with a client of mine who is an Assistant State Attorney General and
>former judge. She assured me that unless an officer of the corporation made
>a threat in their capacity as an officer no liability would be incurred by
>the group. This was free legal advise in casual conversation, not a serious
>consultation, but what she said made sense. I just want to help stop a
>spread of panic over the liability issue before it happens.:)

Whether this opinion offers any comfort depends upon how a jury would
decide what constitutes acting in the capacity of an officer. Nothing can
be assumed about a jury decision. I think that no-one wants to get to the
point of answering to a jury. So let's all behave ourselves, shall we?

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Changes
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sat, 17 Mar 2001 17:06:43 EST

Salve Lucius Sicinius Drusus

Thank you for those very excellent points. I think you have raised some
possible courses of action that our magistrates and our Senate should
deliberate on in the near future.

Like our "late" Senator Vado and others, I have already made a policy of
trying to differentiate my posts as a private citizen from any I have
made as a tribune or a senator. I don't think I have ever explicitly
stated this, but I only append after my name a title of office I hold if
I mean for the post to be connected to my responsibilities in that
office. If you don't see "Senator" or whatever else may apply, under my
name, then you should understand that I am speaking only as old
Australicus Obstinatus the citizen and not making any pronouncement
related to my official duties.

If I had as many honors as do some others, I might want to list them
proudly with every post, like a veteran of the legions wearing his
torques and phalerae everywhere, but perhaps we all need to consider how
to make it clear when we are speaking as a privatus and when as a
senator, consul, praetor, etc.. (Disclaimer: This is *not* meant as a
criticism of any who choose to list whatever they want with their names!)

And I think you are exactly right that we should have leges making it
clear that any officer who acts outside of certain bounds cannot claim to
be acting for the Republic or the corporation. I hope we will be
considering such safeguards soon, if not as leges for all, at least as
rules for the Senate.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

On 3/17/01 8:55 AM lsicinius@-------- (lsicinius@--------) wrote:

>--- In novaroma@--------, LSergAust@a... wrote:
>>
>> Salve Gaius Popillius
>>
>> It is a public matter. Nova Roma has a "dual reality" - it is a
>> micronation but it is also a corporation and thus a legal entity under
>> U.S. law. The Senate and magistrates are also the Board of Directors
>and
>> officers of the corporation.
>>
>> Thus if anyone acting within the framework of the corporation is
>engaging
>> in illegal or libelous activities, the corporation as a whole and its
>> officers individually might be liable for prosecution or civil suit.
>I am
>> a psychologist and *not* an attorney, so I might not be stating the
>> legalities accurately, but I'm thinking I need to consult my
>attorney and
>> decide if I am exposing myself to potential legal problems by
>continuing
>> to be a part of the governance of Nova Roma Corporation.
>>
>> What I can say as a psychologist is that behavior has consequences,
>> including behavior on the Internet, and I don't wish to suffer the
>> consequences of someone else's misbehavior.
>>
>> Vale,
>>
>> L. Sergius Australicus Obst.
>
>Salvete,
>First, I am not a lawyer!
>However I have looked into the legal aspects of organzations like Nova
>Roma and the internet.
>Lucius Sergius is correct that he and other officers of the Nova Roma
>corporation (as opposed to the micronation) can be held legaly
>responsible for actions commited in the name of the corporation.
>
>There are some ways that the officers can protect themselves and the
>corporation, and I suggest that Nova Roma take these steps to protect
>herself.
>
>The best soulation would of course be having our sovergnity recognized
>and gaining the immunity that entails, however that is NOT going to
>happen in the near future.
>
>1.) We need a strict policy seprating offical statements made by the
>officers on behalf of the corporation from private statements made by
>someone who happens to be an officer. Many Companies require that
>disclaimer be attached to private opinions so there is no doubt that
>the indiviual is speaking on thier own behalf, and not as an officer
>of the corporation. This usualy takes the form of a signiture file
>attached to posts and e-mail stating "The Opinions expressed are my
>own, and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma" This should be required
>from anyone holding an offical postion, from Censore, to Scriba.
>
>2.) We need offical bylaws prohibiting actions that could result in
>court action against the corporation or the officers. For our purposes
>this would take the form of a series of leges. For example a lex
>regarding defamation of character. This would provide a defense that
>the action was contrary to to Nova Roma's bylaws, and while the
>indiviual who commited the act may be held libel, the corporation was
>not at fault.
>
>3.) Due to past actions Nova Roma can't claim common carrier status in
>a lawsuit regarding slander. We need to have better control of the
>Main List and any other offical lists, ie the Comittia lists. Up to
>now lawsuits against internet organizations have involved requests to
>remove the libelous post. The same holds for posts that violate
>copyright laws. Since we need full controll of the list archives to
>protect ourselves all offical lists should be on the Nova Roma servers
>so the modarator(s) have full controll of the lists. Nova Roma needs
>to make it plain that any non-offical lists that remain on yahoo
>groups are private and have no offical connection to Nova Roma. Since
>"Nova Roma" is trademaked, this would take the form of requesting that
>Yahoo groups remove any group that is using the name "Nova Roma"
>without carrying a disclaimer that it is a private group and has no
>offical connection to the Nova Roma corporation.
>
>4.) Some have suggested that the offical lists be multi-lingual. While
>I fully support the concept, the legal reality is we have to have
>modarators for any languge that is posted to offical lists. Any
>offical lists need to be limited to posts that are in a language that
>has an offically apointed modarator.
>
>In closing I also urge that all citizens remember the advice of Divus
>Augustus, that when you are angry, stop and recite the 23 letters of
>the alphabet before replying. In other words stop and think about your
>post, rather than firing something off in anger, that may have bad
>consequences for yourself and Nova Roma.
>
>Valete,
>Lucius Sicinius Drusus
>

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)