Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] 1. Report 2. Proposal of Regula 3. Proposal of Plan
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 02:13:18 +0200

REPORT
ABOUT THE STATE OF THE PROVINCIA THULE

8 April 2001
From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, Propraetor Thules

Salve All!

This is a report from the Provincia to the citizens of Thule. I send this
report, as I, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, Propraetor Thules has assumed the
Propraetorship of our Provincia as of 4th April 2001, but the New Official
Provincial Nova Roma presence will begin as of 15th April 2001, the same
day as my two founding Edictas (Regula and Plan) will be sanctioned and
published. This report will address the present state of our Provincia, and
what actions will be taken to organise it.

First, the state of the Provincia: Thule is one of the oldest and largest
Provinciae of Nova Roma, and has a small but growing Nova Roman population,
which is currently unorganised. The Provincia is located in the northern
part of Europe, and has a non- Nova Roman population of about 24.000.000.
There are twelve citizens located all across the Provincia, divided into
eight Gentes. They are:

Gens Curia located in Regio Danica and Regio Finnica, 4 members,
Paterfamilias Titus Curius Dannicus

Gens Fabia located in Regio Suecica, 1 member, (Paterfamilias Quintus
Fabius Maximus in California)

Gens Fennia located in Regio Finnica, 1 member, Paterfamilias Iulius
Fennicus Angelos

Gens Galiciana located in Regio Suecica, 1 member, Paterfamilias Artus
Galicianus Jacobus

Gens Hadriana located in Regio Suecica, 2 members, Paterfamilias Magnus
Hadrianus Ingmarius Cogitatus Thuleus

Gens Minucia located in Regio Suecicae, 1 member, (Paterfamilias Marcus
Minucius Audens in Nova Britannia)

Gens Octavia located in Regio Suecica , 1 member, (Paterfamilias Marcus
Octavius Germanicus in Lacus Magnus)

Gens Rubellius located in Regio Norvegica, 1 member, Paterfamilias Gaius
Rubellius Rufus

I will have to organize the Provincia from scratch. As there is no more to
report on the present organisation of Thule, I will now move on to what
actions will be taken to organise the administration our Provincia. When I
started organising I discovered that there was no formal Provincial
Administration for Thule. I then studied Nova Roma and found that the
Provincia of Canada Occidentalis had a very good administrative
organisation. I modified it to fit Thule, and our new administration system
(Regula) will act as a blue print for future expansion.

I hereby publicly thank the Illustrus Propraetor of Canada Occidentalis and
Quaestor Quintus Sertorius for letting me use his document. Finally, in
this document, there will be a section on what activities are presently
being planed for our Provincia. These sections will be presented under the
following two headings:

I. PROPOSED REGULA FOR THE ADMINISTRATION OF THULE; and
II. PROPOSED PLAN FOR ACTIVITIES FOR THE ORGANISATION OF THULE 2574 - 2576

The following are a proposal. All cives in Thule are welcome to come with
more proposals and ideas. The period of discussion is over on Sunday the
15th of April on which date I, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, the Propraetor
Thules, will include changes and sanction the
1. "Approved Regula (Charter) for the Administration of Thule" and 2.
"Approved Plan for Activities for the Organisation of Thule for 2574 - 2576"

I. PROPOSED REGULA FOR THE ADMINISTRATION OF THULE

For administrative purposes the Provincia of Thule will be divided into
four Regiones, and in the future one more may be added, namely Regio
Islandica, which must be approved of by the Senate though. Each Regio will
be assigned a Legatus, who will deal with the day-to-day operations of
their Regiones. Please see below for information on each of the Regiones,
including the responsibilities of the Legati, and precise geographical
borders. The details of the administrative system by which the Provincia
will adopt may also be viewed.

The Provincia of Thule will be divided for administrative purposes into
four Regiones:

1. Regio Danica (Denmark), 3 civi

2. Regio Finnica (Finland), 2 civi

3. Regio Norvegica (Norway), 1 cives

4. Regio Suecica (Sweden), 5 civi (of these one lives in USA at times)

A Legatus will be assigned to each Regio, and is responsible for the
day-to-day administration of thier Regio, whilst the Propraetor oversees
the administration of the Provincia as a whole. This document gives precise
details of the administrative structure to be used in Thule, under four
main headings: A. Governor for Thule (excerpt from The Constitution of Nova
Thule V. C.) B. Regio, Legati Title, and Area; C. Administrative
Infrastructure; and D. Duties and Responsibilities for the Legati and other
officials of Thule.

A. Governor for Thule (excerpt from The Constitution of Nova Thule V. C.)

"The Senate may, by Senatus Consultum, create provincia for administrative
purposes and to appoint provincial governors therefore. The Senate may
review each governor on a yearly basis and it remains in the discretion of
the Senate whether or not to prorogue such governors. These governors may
have assistants to handle the disbursements of any funds that might come
from the central government, as well as to manage any local funds.

1. Governors shall have the following honours, powers, and obligations:

a. To hold imperium and have the honor of being preceeded by six lictors
solely within the jurisdiction of their provincia;
b. To proclaim those edicta (edicts) necessary to engage in those tasks
which advance the mission and function of Nova Roma solely within the
jurisdiction of their provincia (such edicts being binding upon themselves
as well as others);
c. To manage the day-to-day organization and administration of their provincia;
d. To appoint legati (legates) to administer sub-divisions of their
province with all of the authority of the governor and to remove the same
as they see fit;
e. To appoint scribae (clerks) to assist with administrative and other
tasks, as the governor shall see fit.

2. The titles for provincial governors are as follow:
a. Those currently serving as consuls or praetors shall go by their normal
title;
b. Consuls serving as governors whose term in office as consul has expired,
yet who are continuing in their role as governor, shall be called
proconsuls;
c. Praetors serving as governors whose term in office as praetor has
expired, yet who are continuing in their role as governor, as well as those
citizens whom the Senate shall appoint who are not currently serving as
consul or praetor shall be called propraetors."

B. Regio, Legati Title, and Area.

1. DANICA

Legatus Regionis Danicae, (Legate of the Danish Region)
Area = equivalent to Denmark.

2. FINNICA

Legatus Regionis Finnicae, (Legate of the Finnish Region)
Area = equivalent to Finland and Åland.

3. NORVEGICA

Legatus Regionis Norvegicae, (Legate of the Norweigian Region)
Area = equivalent to Norway.

4. SUECICA

Legatus Regionis Suecicae, (Legate of the Swedish Region)
Area = equivalent to Sweden.

C. Administrative Infrastructure

1. The Legati Thules must provide the Propraetor Thules with the standard
contact information (e-mail address, (snail) mail address and telephone
number). This information about the cives of each Regio shall be requested
by the Legati for their Regio on a quarterly basis from the Censores and
forwarded to the Propraetor Thules. The Propraetor will keep records of
these details, and ensure that all Legati know how to contact the
Propraetor, the other Legati and all cives. The primary method of
administrative communication will be via e-mail, with mail and telephone
being used when e-mail is not available.

2. The names of the Legati Thules will be displayed, with their locations,
on the Thule website, with links to their e-mail addresses. Prospective
citizens will be encouraged to contact the Legatus for their Regio as a
line of first enquiry. There will be separate pages on the Thule website
for each Regio. Legati are also encouraged to establish web sites for their
Regiones, which will then be linked to the Thule website.

3. The Propraetor of Thule will appoint Legati, whose positions will be
reaffirmed each year on the first of January, by the Propraetor, if the
Propraetor so decides. When a legateship becomes open, the Praetor shall
invite all citizens in the relevant Regio to put themselves forward as
candidates for office. All citizens residing within that Regio shall be
eligible to stand for such office. The choice of Legatus shall be at the
Propraetor's discretion, to be determined by any means deemed appropriate.
If the Propraetor deems it appropriate, he will wait to appoint a Legatus
for a Regio until he finds a suitable person to appoint as Legatus for that
Regio. The Propraetor can appoint Prolegati (Provisional Legati on Trial)
for a period of not more than four months for Regiones without a regular
Legatus. Prolegati fill all the functions of regular Legati. All Prolegati
can be appointed or dismissed at any time by the Propraetor Thules.

4. The Propraetor Thules shall at all times retain the right of veto over
all actions of the Legati.

5. All Legati shall retain the right to resign from their positions at any
time, without penalty, provided they provide a reason for their resignation.

D. Duties and Responsibilities for the Legati and other officials of Thule

1. The Legati Thules will establish and maintain personal contacts as far,
as is possible with the citizens resident in the Regio for which they are
responsible. The Legati shall act as a point of first contact and enquiry
for interested prospective citizens, and are asked to offer advice to such
prospective citizens concerning application for Nova Roman citizenship,
information, etc. The Legati shall also act as a point of first contact for
existing citizens, to whom they are also asked to offer advice relating to
any aspect of Nova Roma to the best of their abilities.

2. The Legati are encouraged to correspond regularly with the Propraetor
Thules, reporting new developments or events in their Regios, and asking
advice where necessary. The Legati shall also actively seek advice and
direction from the Provinica Propraetor, and be prepared to assist the
Propraetor in any projects that are undertaken concerning Thule. To ensure
a minimum degree of communication, Legati are required to present reports
on their Regiones to the Propraetor twice yearly, on or close before the 31
November and 30 May. These reports may be brief, but should outline, to the
best of the Legatus' knowledge, the current population of his or her Regio.
It shall also outline the events, which have been held in connection with
Nova Roma during the past six months in his or her Regio, the plan for the
next six months, and any further information, which the Legatus may deem
useful or necessary. Failure to produce such reports within one month of
the expected date (31 November and 30 May), without good reason or prior
explanation or passivity in the leadership of his/her Regio may result in
the dismissal of the Legatus by the Propraetor.

3. The Legati Thules are encouraged to participate in further activities to
promote Nova Roma and the Provincia. Legati will make contacts with local
institutions in order to facilitate the exchange of information.

4. The Legati Thules shall take care of the day-to-day administration of
the Regiones for which they are responsible, but they shall remain at all
times subordinate, and answerable to the Propraetor Thules. If at any time
the Propraetor has cause to believe that an individual Legatus is failing
to fulfil his or her duties to a reasonable standard, or indulging in
activities which are illegal under the law in each Nordic (Thule) country
(Regio), the Propraetor will contact the Legatus to be warned of the
possible consequences of such action, and ask for an improvement in
standards. If no, or an inadequate response, is forthcoming, the Propraetor
may dismiss the Legatus, and arrange for the appointment of a new Legatus
as a replacement.

5. The Propraetor Thules may appoint one Senior Legatus, this could be an
separate position or held together with one of the Legatus Regionis
positions. The Senior Legatus shall function as Deputy to the Propraetor
when so ordered by the Propraetor Thules. The Propraetor shall publish an
edictum for each occasion that the Senior Legatus shall function as his
Deputy. The Edictum shall include directives for the assignment including
time for the assignment and the actual task. The Senior Legati can also be
assigned special missions, aside the assignments as Deputy, by the
Propraetor Thules. These missions and the duration of them will be
specified in Propraetorian edicts. The appointment and dismissal of the
Senior Legatus shall follow the same rules as for the other Legati.

6. The Propraetor may appoint a "Consilium Provinciale Thules" (The
Provincial Council of Thule) to advice the Propraetor, who shall act as
Chairman and call the Consilium to order. The Consilium shall consider only
those issues put forward to it by the Propraetor Thules; the Consilium can
not in itself put issues on the agenda, although its members can make such
suggestion personally to the Propraetor. The Propraetor shall act as
Secterarius for the Consilium and keep the minutes. The Propraetor can, as
he wishes, decide to not follow the counsel of the Consilium Provinciale
Thules. Members will be all Legates, including the Senior Legatus. The
Propraetor will also be able to call other cives to sit in the Consilium,
these members will be called "Consiliarius" or "Consiliaria". Consiliarii
can be appointed or dismissed at any time by the Propraetor Thules. The
Consiliarii normally sits for the same period as the Legati. The Consilium
will not function to exclude cives, but to unite the provincial leadership
so that it in its turn can function as a center for all communication, work
and contact within the Provincia.

7. The Propraetor Thules shall appoint a "Praeco Aranei Thules" (Provincial
webmaster, Crier of the Web of Thule) for the homepage for Provincia Thule
and a "Praefectus Sermonis Thules" (Provincial List Moderator, Head of
Speech of Thule) to arrange for the administration of the Thule e-mail
list. The Praeco Aranei Thules and the Praefectus Sermonis Thules can be
appointed or dismissed at any time by the Propraetor Thules.

8. The leadership (the Consilium) of the Provincia, shall work together to
make Nova Roma and Thule strong in all possible ways: Roman Religio,
personal meetings, seminars/conferences, financial work, other work within
Nova Roma and so on. The Propraetor shall, as the Provincia get enough
enthusiastic cives, appoint "Procuratores" for each of these activities.
For now the Propraetor will act as Procurator Aerarium (Provincial
Quaestor), until such time as this position can be filled by a willing
civis. The Propraetor shall also appoint one position to deal with external
contacts (external contacts with universities, museums, schools, mass media
and other interesting organisations), who will be called "Legatus ad Res
Externas" (Legate for External Affairs), who also will have to keep in
touch with the Sodalitas Egressus. All Procuratores and the Legatus ad Res
Externas can be appointed or dismissed at any time by the Propraetor Thules.

9. The Propraetor Thules shall appoint a Legatus Militum (Military Tribune)
who is responsible for all contacts with re-enactment Legions and showing
Roman military uniforms and weapon on Roman days and the like. The Legatus
Militia also is responsible for all military studies of the Roman army and
navy, within Provincia Thule. The Propraetor Thules may appoint a young man
or woman to the position of Contubernalis Provincia (Provinsial Adjutant),
the personal military assistant to the Propraetor. The Legatus Militum and
the Contubernalis Provincia can be appointed or dismissed at any time by
the Propraetor Thules.

10. The Propraetor Thules may appoint magistrates, to administer the
Provincial Nova Roman populations of individual towns or areas. This will
soon be regulated by Nova Roma Roma legislation, and then the Propraetor
Thules on this issue will complement this edict.

11. Until such time as the Constitutional provisions regarding the
administration of Provincia are changed the following officials will been
seen as ordinari Legati according to the Constitution of Nova Roma:
1. Senior Legatus 2. Prolegati 3. The Consiliarii.

12. Until such time as the Constitutional provisions regarding the
administration of Provincia are changed the following officials will been
seen as ordinari Scribae according to the Constitution of Nova Roma:
1. The Praeco Aranei Thules 2. The Praefectus Sermonis Thules. 3. Legatus
ad Res Externas 4. Procuratores
5. Legatus Militum 6. Contubernalis Provincia.

13. The Legates, Scribae and other officials constitute the Cohors
Propraetoris (the staff of the Propraetor) and the Praetorium is the HQ of
the Propraetor.

14. Candidates for the office of Legatus and other officials of Thule
should be aware that participation in rites pertaining to the Religio
Romana (the pagan state religion of Nova Roma) might be required of them in
the course of their duties. Should such participation cause difficulties
for prospective officials, they are advised not to apply for the post.

II. PROPOSED PLAN FOR ACTIVTIES FOR THE ORGANISATION OF THULE 2574 - 2576
Due to the size of this undertaking to organise Thule, the plan will be
phased in order to progress forward incrementally during more than 2 and a
half years. In this section the activities that will be undertaken during
this whole period of organisation will be shown. These activities do not
constitute all we will attempt, and any further input from citizens is
strongly encouraged.

1. Although the Internet holds Nova Roma together as an international
community, we believe that it is also important to organise face-to-face
formal and informal gatherings at the local level. Where members will be
able to meet each other, and share their enthusiasm for Roman culture.
2. We have found that not all Roman lovers want to be part of Nova Roma, so
we will try to gather those who have an overall interest in Old Rome. From
this group we intend to cultivate future citizens. Since we are
predominately an Internet organisation, and rely on this medium for the
communication of information, we should try to find citizens with this in
mind. We should concentrate our efforts in our Home locations, as this
makes all logistics easier. Being very busy on many fronts, things move
slowly, but progress will move steadily forward! What follows is a short
list of the areas we are currently concentrating on. These are some
activities that will be moved forward to further Nova Roman culture in
Thule, and facilitate organisation.

A. Web Site for Thule
We will start by saying we are not web wizards, but we are capable and
willing to learn. It will hopefully develop into a site that will act as a
conduit for all individuals and institutions in Thule to reach the
individuals and institutions in our Provincia. We want as many people to
visit the Thule website as possible, so we plan to have some interesting
attractions set up on the site. Another important part of the website will
be a Links Page between the institutions in Thule and those of Nova Roma.
It is hoped that this Link Page will be a valuable resource in facilitating
the spread of Roman Culture. We plan to compile a contact links list to
include the following institutions; Universities; Museums; High Schools;
The Arts Community; The Military; Law Enforcement; Government; Colleges;
Fire Dept.; Clubs; The Ethnic Community; Shut Ins and the Disabled;
Seniors; etc., etc. We believe that this contact list will be a powerful
weapon the use to further the interests of Thule, and Nova Roma.

We will be very proactive citizens for Nova Roma and ensure information is
pushed in both directions. We will maintain a list of citizens in Thule
(following any privacy laws in Nova Roma) and details such the citizens of
our Provincia wish to share. There will be separate Pages for each of the
four Regiones of Thule, and maybe, in the future, a Page for establishment
of a new Re-enactment Legio.

B. Recruitment
Once it has been determined which organisations will be the most fruitful
to approach, we will begin recruitment. Presenting our micro-nation, and
what we have to offer to prospective citizens. We think that once it
becomes known what Nova Roma is about, we will see a dramatic raise in
applications for citizenship here in Thule. Our goals for actual numbers
are to have 20 citizens for the entire Provincia by the end of 2001. We
intend to operate the Provincia on a Jan.-to-Jan. schedule, the same as in
Nova Roma. For the period of Jan 2002 to Jan 2003, we hope to have 32
citizens. We are going to try to reach the general public with the media.
We are interested in what is happening in the Universities. We believe this
to be an area where our Provincia can expand. We will try to contact a
group in one of the universities in each Regio to see if someone will be
willing to participate in this. The Recruitment plan we have been working
on will be as dynamic as our fertile imaginations can make it. This will be
necessary in order to capture the minds of prospective citizens.

C. Finances
As we are starting the Provincia administration from scratch, all areas of
finance must be organised. We will start by making a budget for Jan.
2001-Jan. 2002, and submit it to the Senate as was requested of all the
Provinciae this last fall. We will then continue by establishing a bank
account for Thule before the end of 2001, which will be used as our main
treasury. For now the Propraetor will act as Procurator Aerarium, until
such time as a more suitable candidate can fill this position. It is
assumed that the Provincia will run in the red until our finances right
themselves. There is also the important question of taxes for Nova Roma,
and, should taxes become a reality, then we will have to follow any
procedures given to the Provincia. The Propraetor will be to issuing
various Edicta, depending on any rules and regulations that we may have to
follow concerning our organisation. We will maybe register Thule as a
non-profit organisation, and once this is done we may apply for a Lotteries
License. We than hope to hold fundraising events, and hope to be able to
accept tax-deductible donations. Then we will put together a proposal for
Thule that will be used to apply for any government cultural grants
available, and more importantly for Corporate grants. We also plan to, in
the future, hold various fundraising events such as Toga Parties where we
hope to have Gladiatorial combats as a draw. The fundraising is mainly for
the payment of taxes, projects, communications, and advertisement.

D. Infrastructure for Thule
The plan we have for the Infrastructure of Thule will be used in order to
make the administration fill out, and to facilitate the Provincia
operations. As the State is planning to organise a judicial system, we
believe it will not be necessary to establish dual institutions for
internal Provincia adjudication. The Propraetor has the power of Imperium
within the Provincia to make any internal rulings needed. We would like it
to be known that this Administration Plan is necessary in order to be able
to properly absorb the new members into Thule, and to ensure that both the
citizen and Nova Roma benefit the most from interaction. I truly believe
that Thule will have a population of more than thirty citizens for the
period of Jan. 2002 and Jan. 2003. These numbers are achievable with the
proper diligence and planning.

E. Spread of Nova Roman Culture
In order to spread Nova Roman culture, it is believed that the creation of
various small groups will be of great importance. These organisations are
designed to attract Rome-lovers, who will be approached for Nova Roman
citizenship. Our hope is that persons interested will also want to be part
of our Republic. It is hoped that these groups will help to hold our
Provincia closer together by drawing out and expanding on the individual
citizens' interests.

F. The Grand opening of the Provincia of Thule
We are planning to have our Grand opening in July 2001, but we intend to
phase our Provincia Plan, and phase one for all projects will hopefully be
completed by July 2001, which is when we plan to have a Grand Opening for
the Provincia of Thule. At this time the entire completed and tested
Website will be up and running, ready for exploration. This site will be
approx. 10 MB of internal files, not counting external links, so it will be
large. It is hoped that there will be many visitors to our Grand Opening.

This brings to a close this report on the state of the Provinicia Thule. We
will continue to work with vigilance, ensuring the emergence of a well
balanced and Ruled Provincia. We understand things take time, but we will
continue to work for what we feel is required. We have planed for this
slowness, and have in fact made it a positive aspect by making our plans
push along steadily. There is no looking back now for Thule and we fully
intend to make this Provincia a powerhouse. Thank you for your interest
and, we hope we have not wasted your time.

Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Appointments in Thule 7th April 2754
From:	Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@-------->
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 02:16:19 +0200

Ave, quirites.

I, Titus Octavius Pius (Kristoffer From), do hereby solemnly swear to
uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests
of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.
As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Titus Octavius Pius (Kristoffer
From), swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public
dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.
I, Titus Octavius Pius (Kristoffer From), swear to uphold and defend
the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to
act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.
I, Titus Octavius Pius (Kristoffer From), swear to protect and defend
the Constitution of Nova Roma.
I, Titus Octavius Pius (Kristoffer From), further swear to fulfill
the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Praeco Aranei
Thules to the best of my abilities.
On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I
accept the position of Praeco Aranei Thules and all the rights,
privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
cives Thuleus,
Praeco Aranei Thules

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

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Subject:	[novaroma] Basilica was Re: Govenors Removed?
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 00:50:29 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, LSergAust@a... wrote:
>
> Salve Lucius Sicinius Drusus
>
> I had started using your Basilica theme with Mozilla 0.8, and
> subsequently with Mozilla 0.8.1 (which seems to be buggier than 0.8).
>
> The latest build of 0.8.1 (2001040608 downloaded yesterday) will not
load
> Basilica from the Yahoogroups page from which I installed it earlier. I
> am also unable to select it from the theme options in Mozilla's menus.
> Basilica shows up as an option, but nothing happens when it is selected.
>
> All of this is on a Mac running OS 8.6, BTW.
>
> L. Sergius Aust.
>
>
> certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
>
> (You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

Salve,

I have been remiss and should have posted a warning. Thank you Lucius
Sergius for reminding me.

On March 23 some XUL changes were checked into Mozilla that broke
Basilica (and every other theme for Mozilla). On April 3 a bug that I
filed against Mozilla was fixed. It concerned crashes caused by themes
that had not been updated. This fix implements theme versioning and
prevents "bad" themes from loading.

Other recent check ins to Mozilla include Outliner which provides a
major improvement in Mail and News, a better Cache, and libpr0n. The
last is a an improved imaging system. pr0n is hacker speak for
pornagraphy, libpr0n is a humorus name because it makes Mozilla better
at viewing "porno sites" than any other browser. there is even a joke
web site put up by the Netscape engineers who contributed libpr0n to
Mozilla. See
http://www.libpr0n.com/index.html
(The $34.95 regestration fee is part of the joke, it's free) The real
name is Imglib2, but everyone is using the Joke name.

In addition to working on Basilica, I'm also working on another User
Interface for Mozilla named Aphrodite. Aphrodite has many features
that Mozilla lacks including total recall which restores the web pages
that were being viewed prior to a crash (Real handy for Windows
users), a better menu structure than Mozilla, a better tool bar,
Support for searches on multiple search engines at once, and support
for translations (broken right now). The Aphrodite project was
abandoned last November because the person who was managing it was
hired to work on a full time project. Software you are getting paid to
write takes precedance over free software projects ;o). I recentally
picked up work on Aphrodite because I hope to include some of her
features in Basilica. Aphrodite is a very sick lady right now, she is
full of bugs after being dormant for 6 months. (One is she dosen't
work on Macs), but things are looking up. When I picked her up she
would crash as soon as she tried to load, and after I fixed that the
layout was a total mess. I have gotten her to a state where she works,
but isn't very useful for browsing, and have lined up some help from a
student in England.

Due to all the work I need to do after the recent check ins to perpare
Basilica for Mozilla 0.9, and to get Aphrodite healthy, I didn't have
time to prepare a Basilica release for Mozilla 0.81, though I should
have posted a warning here and I apoligize to anyone who has tried to
download Basilica with the latest versions of Mozilla. The next
version of Basilica should be ready around April 25, but it won't have
any of the Aphrodite features.

Valete,
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Govenors Removed?
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 7 Apr 2001 21:20:34 -0400

Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: lsicinius@-------- [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 2:00 PM
>
> A tied vote? The Senatus Consultum de Ratione Senatus states votes
> will be determined by a "shall be decided by majority vote unless
> otherwise mandated". Since the action before the Senate was proroguing
> Propraetors There wasn't a majority in favor, so it seems the vote was
> that Liva Marcia would NOT be prorogued. It may be a good idea to put
> a Consulta before the Senate that sets up procedures for a tied vote
> however so there will be no future confusion on this matter.

There should not be any confusion on this particular point; you are entirely
correct in pointing out that a tie = a "no" vote. That is precisely what
"shall be decided by majority vote" means. If a majority (i.e., 50%+1) votes
in favor, a measure is carried. Otherwise, it is not.

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re-intro
From:	Marius the Wanderer <peregrinus@-------->
Date:	Date header was inserted by mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net

Ex papilio Luci Mari Peregrini omnes NovaRomanis s.p.d.

Salvete omnes...

[looks out upon the many, many new Citizens who have joined NR's ranks
since last he was active]

...I think it's fair to say that most of you don't remember me. >({|:-)

I first became a Citizen in July of '98 (AUC 2751). Back then I
enjoyed a reputation for moderation and fairness. (You have only my
word for that now, unless you explore the List archives.) I was
Tribunus Militum (we *do* have them), curator sermonem, de facto
Propraetor of the Southwest (US) Province for a year and a half, and a
frequent contributor to the List. I also served the Censor's Office as
Nomenclator, a post I created to review new applicants' Roman-name
requests. My main interests were military, cultural, and historical
affairs, with a strong emphasis on Roman daily life and common
experience. As the 'Lost Legionary', I also did solo reenactments
throughout Texas and the Southwest.

But all that was a long time ago. Stuff happens; and I now come to you
from so far out on the periphery that my cognomen has changed to
something that can mean either Wanderer, Pilgrim, Foreigner, or Alien.
Which it will be, and what I may make of myself from here, will depend
much on my actions; and much on how receptive those who do remember me
are to the idea of my moving about in the community again.

I will have some thoughts about the name-change edictum in another
message. But first I thought I'd best reintroduce myself.

Looking forward to making your (re)acquaintance,
***********************************************************
Lucius Marius Peregrinus <peregrinus@-------->
Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, |>[SPQR]<|
Historical Re-Creationist |\=/|
and Citizen of Rome ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
"Is Rome worth one good man's life? ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
We believed it once. | | / )\ \| /
Make us believe it again." _|_| / _/_| /`(
-- Lucilla, _Gladiator_ /./..=' /./..'

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Clientelism (a general comment)
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sat, 7 Apr 2001 21:30:52 EDT

On 4/7/01 2:54 PM S. Apollonius Draco (hendrik.meuleman@--------) wrote:

SNIPPED
>
>Salve Senator Australice,
>
>> This is the second time you have made this preposterous statement. One
>> can only think that you must be looking for excuses to repeat it because
>> you are trolling for a response. Let me oblige so that you won't have to
>> keep finding excuses to repeat that assertion ad infinitum.
>>
>
>Not so long ago you accused Formosanus of being a crusader; now look what
>you're doing.
It escapes me, Draco - you tell me what I'm doing. I don't recall having
accused Formosanus of being a "crusader" and I certainly haven't accused
Limitanus of it. I have specifically accused him of trolling. Different
words have different meanings. Kindly don't put your own words in my
mouth.
>
>> To assert that those who would despise their sacred oaths, abandon their
>> duty posts, and desert their friends and compatriots, all because some
>> things were not going entirely the way they wanted, can be described as
>> "the best of us" is ludicrous. If those were the actions of "the best of
>> us," we would be in a sorry state indeed. I thought highly of many of
>> those people until they showed their true colors. The best of us? Don't
>> make me laugh. In the old days, we would all have taken staves and beaten
>> them to death for desertion.
>
>Excuse me? Attacking people who aren't here to defend themselves from this
>vicious twisting of the truth is a little cheap.
Well, Draco, to make themselves conveniently absent from the field hardly
ties the hands of the rest of us, does it? As to "vicious twisting of the
truth," where is that occurring? Did not several of these people swear
sacred oaths to do the various duties they each undertook freely? Did
they not preemptorily abandon those duties in open contempt of those
oaths? If this is not fact, then please enlighten us as to your version
of the "truth" about their conduct. Note I did not say, whine to us about
how unappreciated and mistreated they were. Tell us how their leaving as
they did was true to the sacred oaths they swore.
>
>> On the other hand, if you are so certain that "the best of us" are gone,
>> why are you still here?
>
>Why don't you add "leave NR, so you can be backstabbed later in the same
>fashion"? This sort of anger makes me suspicious, I must say.
I did not say that because I did not intend that message, Draco - those
are your words, not mine. Do you find it so hard to criticize what I say
that you have to put other words in my mouth in order to argue against
your own words instead of against mine?

And where do you get off imputing anger to me? There is no anger in that
remark - only disgust.

You have a good mind and an artful tongue, Draco. Don't waste them on
causes that are not worthy of you. Your loyalty to your friends does you
credit, but it is carried too far when you twist my words and accuse me
of things I haven't expressed.

L. Sergius Aust.

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re-intro
From:	Piparskeggr Ullarsson <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Sat, 07 Apr 2001 20:33:37 -0500

Hullo Marius!

Marius the Wanderer wrote:
>
> Ex papilio Luci Mari Peregrini omnes NovaRomanis s.p.d.
>
> Salvete omnes...
>
> (excision)
>
> Looking forward to making your (re)acquaintance,
> ***********************************************************
> Lucius Marius Peregrinus

You are well and fondly remembered in m Domus.

--
===========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis, Benedicte Omnes!
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Cives, Paterfamilias Gens Ulleria
My homestead
http://www.geocities.com/piparskegg/index.html

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Taxes
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 7 Apr 2001 21:57:21 -0400

Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christer Edling [mailto:tjalens.h@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 5:06 AM
>
> I stand behind the Illustrus Propraetor Lucius Mauricius Procopious and
> others who have proposed something like: "I would prefer to see a system
> based on macronational GNP as suggested earlier on the main list. It seems
> simple and fair. (Could you please repost that data?) It was something
like
> 3X minimum hourly wage. Or the average annual income was divided by a
> certain number to get an annual tax rate for that macronation."

But... I don't understand how you can support that and at the same time say
in relation to the idea I put forth (which puts the decision in the hands of
the provincial governor, rather than mussing with macronational GNP),

> It is sound!

Could you explain further?

> I find this a good suggestion. Are we to retain the system for those who
> didn't vote in the last elections too. I think so myself!

Yes; putting those who don't pay taxes wouldn't have any impact on the
system for those who don't vote in the annual elections...

> Good idea! What are we going to "do", with those who don't pay provincial
> taxes. Should You be "punished" for not paying taxes or only for not
paying
> central taxes.

There wouldn't be any distinction; you either pay your combined taxes or you
don't. They would be collected in one sum, and then divided between the
province and central government afterwards.

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	[novaroma] Wanderer
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 02:08:28 -0000

Salve, Wanderer;

Welcome back to the Nova Roma Main List. I remember you well, or at least your shade by another name. I pray that you will sit in the shade by the well-head, under the grape-arbor. Rest your tired frame, and drink you fill of the cool water. Be at your ease, and be welcome!!!

Vale, Respectfully
Marcus Audens

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Taxes
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 7 Apr 2001 22:31:32 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: S. Apollonius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 3:14 PM
>
> I think the current plan regarding taxation looks pretty well overall, but
I
> still strongly feel that taxes should be °at least° continental and
> preferredly provincial. I don't think a Chinese citizen would like to pay
up
> for a US organization that can spend the money to make NR grow and sponsor
> Roman events in America... meaning the Chinese citizen wouldn't get much
> back from what he paid up, except from being placed in a different
century.
>
> Perhaps if the taxes were regulated provincially or continentally, cives
> would a) be more willing to pay, because they won't have the feeling their
> money has "disappeared" b) be less worried about transaction costs and c)
> would be able to have more input on what happens with their money.

That is, of course, the whole point of the new proposal I made. All the
taxes collected over the baseline would be kept within the province. It is
simply up to the governor to determine how much that is. Thus, there is
indeed a huge amount of local control and discretion. I'm not quite sure
what you're objecting to...

> To
> regulate all financial stuff, each provincia could have a procurator.
> Britannia used to have one, and currently Gallia has one, too (me). This
> way, the propraetor wouldn't have to do all the work by himself, and each
> province has a relative freedom. A percentage of that taxation should of
> course go to the central treasury, but only on the condition that all of
NR
> all over the world will benefit, and not only a certain regio. For
example,
> the poll held in Britannia has shown that most of the people over there
> didn't like the taxation plan in its current state. Comments on this idea
> also appreciated!

The poll held in Britannia had nothing to do with the current proposal
(unless they held a poll yesterday that I didn't hear about!).

I must say I disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that there should be some
condition that "all of NR all over the world will benefit". Certain projects
will by their very nature take place in certain locales. Do you honestly
believe we shouldn't spend money underwriting an archaeological dig in Italy
because the money isn't benefitting our Citizens in Argentina? Do you think
we should write off Roman Days because it happens in Maryland, rather than
being a world-wide event? Come, now, young Draco... be realistic.

The current plan, I believe, lets money stay in the locale, but still brings
in revenue to the central government. The amounts are determined "in the
field" as it were, by the provincial governor, who doubtless has a better
idea of what the true conditions are among the cives than either our own
Senate or the CIA could. Plus, it has the bonus of decentralizing the
decision-making process; I would think it would be preferable to put
responsibility in the hands of governors, and at the same time give them a
mechanism to raise some funds to use specifically in their provincia.

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Old Business II: Resignation Edict
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 7 Apr 2001 23:05:58 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: S. Apollonius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 3:24 PM
>
> Opponents of this edict said that people who °really° want out simply
won't
> care for this edictum, while people who truly love Roma are being punished
> by this. This was and is a non-solution for a non-problem.

Do you perhaps mean "care about" rather than "care for"? It would make more
sense...

I do disagree that it's a non-problem, however. All too often, people think
they have to leave Nova Roma completely for some imagined slight they've
suffered or failing they have committed. Many times, the impetuous emotions
of the moment overcome clearer thought and consideration, and the decision
to leave is later regretted and re-thought. Indeed; this just happened in
two recent cases, and I must say that Nova Roma is much the better for those
individuals having reconsidered their decision to leave.

> Why would the Censores have power over the Senate in this matter? In fact,
> they are both Senatores, so even if 18 out of 20 Senatores vote in favour
of
> said citizen, the two Censores could still prevent that citizen from
> returning into the Senate. So I'd scrap the Censores from this paragraph.

Paragraph IV.A.1.d. of the Constitution does give the Censores the authority
to "add and remove names on that list [the Album Senatorium] according to
qualifications set by law". Remember that part of their job is to safeguard
the public honor, and this could be seen as an extension of that
responsibility (in a broad sense).

> "Contempt for the state" sounds, and I am sorry to say it, °very°
> authoritarian. However, I do think two paragraphs above are better, and
> truly offer a solution (for what is still a non-problem anyway) in case
some
> cives keep leaving and coming back. I'd change the "two years" to six
months
> though.

Would "contempt for the Republic" sound better? :-) Honestly I wouldn't get
so caught up in such semantics, and stop looking for authoritarianism where
it isn't to be found.

And I must say that I think you are viewing the question through the eyes of
a 17 year old. While two years might seem like an eternity to you right now,
eventually I think you'll come to understand that in the grand scheme of
things it's really not that long to wait for something in which you really,
truly believe. (Of course, if that was the case, why would one leave in the
first place? But that's the whole problem, of course...)

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	[novaroma] Provincial Census
From:	V_Praetoria@--------
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 03:13:39 -0000

Avete Comiltones
Greetings to all my fellow cives. This message is intended for all
the cives of America Austroccidentalis, but I am posting here because
not all my cives have joined our group. For those of you in my
province, I encourage you all to join the provincial group, as I have
called for a provincial census. Since the removal of the last
Propraetor, many of the cives of our province have resigned, and as
the new Propraetor, I intend to strengthen America
Austroccidentalis. So please, respond to this letter, as it only
benefits you all. I am planning several events, but I need to find
out where to plan them. Only you can make all this possible. All
the census requires is that you identify yourself as a member and
what city and state you live in. With that information, I can begin
to make the arrangements for events. If you have any questions or
comments, feel free to let me know.

Pontius Sejanus Marius
Propraetor, America Austroccidentalis

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Subject:	[novaroma] Resignation Edict
From:	V_Praetoria@--------
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 03:19:10 -0000

Ave,
I agree with what Senator Germanicus is saying out the heat of the
moment forcing people to make rash decisions. As the Propraetor of a
province that just recently under went a major "civil war", I am
trying to restore order to America Austroccidentalis. I happened to
lose several good people who could have been a real asset to me. I
do believe something needs to be done regarding this matter before it
befalls another province.

Pontius Sejanus Marius
Propraetor, America Austroccidentalis

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Govenors Removed?
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 7 Apr 2001 23:22:35 -0400

Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: LSergAust@-------- [mailto:LSergAust@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 5:00 PM
>
> I agree with your proposal. Clarification in this area is needed. I am
> one of those who understood that when a governor was not prorogued, they
> were no longer governor.

I would point out that last month the Senate passed a Senatus Consultum
regarding the regulation of gubernatorial prorogation which answers this
particular question: "those [governors] who are not [prorogued] shall be
considered removed as of the Kalends of Martius". I don't think any further
clarification is really needed...

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	[novaroma] Gone For The Day
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Sat, 7 Apr 2001 23:33:26 -0400 (EDT)

Salve, Citizens of Nova Roma;

For those who might have an interest, I will be gone all day Sunday to
Fort Warren (a pre-Civil War Masonry Fortification) onGeorge's Island
(Boston Islands State Park) for a site-walk to prepare for a Civil War
Reenactment Event in late July. I should be back late in the evening on
Sunday night.

Vale, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	[novaroma] Hard lines? (Tax-related)
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 01:07:49 -0400

Salve,

I have been watching the discussions on taxation closely and I am pleased to
see that the basic idea of "we need to gather funds" appears to be agreed
upon already. That being said, I have a few thoughts to put forth that may,
or may not, appear rather "hard line" at the moment but which I feel we need
to address.

1. "Tax collectors": I have no idea what the proper term for such
individuals would be on a provincial or global level, so I hope no one gets
offended by this term. I believe it is imperative that ANYONE entrusted to
gather, distribute and track taxation be bonded or otherwise legally held
responsible in their macro nation for the money. I have been a member of an
International club whose former president is currently serving 5-7 in St.
Louis for embezzlement.

I understand that we will have our own laws and such regarding the
collectors, but those must be in concordance with the macro nations. To wit
(and please trust me this is not intended as a dig), much as I appreciate
Draco's willingness to serve in this capacity in his province, I do not
believe a 17/18 year old would be legally allowed to do so in most areas of
the world. Other factors aside from age, of course, come into play and I
think this is a key issue we need to address as we discuss any form of
taxation.

2. "Amount of taxation": While I understand the desire to tailor tax amounts
to some degree so as not to unduly affect certain regions, I think we need
to have a base rate and grant exemptions on a case by case basis. Most
international groups do not tailor their membership fees to local regions.
For one small example, if I wish to purchase a British wedding magazine here
in New Jersey, that magazine will cost (on average) about 2-3 dollars more
than an American one. The clerk at the book store does not calculate the
price based on my salary, my country of origin or the GNP. Likewise, I know
that an International subscription (considered outside the USA) to National
Geographic Magazine costs far more than a standard subscription. I can say
with relative confidence that the publishers do not factor in whether a
person subscribing from an impoverished area can really afford the magazine.

All that being said, I feel very strongly that we ought to have a set tax
across the board. I also feel there should be levels, to take into account
students and seniors and family memberships. But to try and calculate taxes
based on GNP and purchasing parity and other such factors needlessly muddies
the job of all tax collectors to an unbearable point.

3. "Citizens who do not pay": I suppose this is where I may seem most
*hard-line* of all. I, personally, believe that ALL citizens must pay a tax
if they wish to remain citizens. It has been suggested that those who
choose not to pay be placed in certain tribes and therefore not be given a
very loud voice in politics. That still allows them to subscribe to all of
our lists, participate in debates, run for office, etc. I have a real
problem with that. While I am very glad to see our numbers swell, I would
much prefer to have a nation of 100 active committed, participating cives
than 800, of which 700 sit back and contribute nothing. (Mind you, I do not
mean to imply we currently have 700 "non-doers".)

I believe if a person wishes to be a part of Nova Roma they ought to be
willing to put their money where their mouth is, just the same as any other
organization would require. Given that I already addressed the exceptions
to taxation above, I also feel comfortable saying this policy ought not turn
away the rare individual who *truly* cannot afford the tax but wants to be a
member. Let us be frank with ourselves.......we currently cannot even
obtain a voter turn-out of 50%. Yes, such a hard line on taxation might
drive some away, but if those who are driven away are among those who do not
even bother to vote at this point, are we really losing?

Well, there you have it........a few ideas for the masses to chew upon. :)
As the subject line reads, I know they may seem rather "hard-line", but
since I hadn't seen the thoughts tossed out for discussion yet I figured the
time has come. I look forward to productive discussion on the topics above.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Keeping citizens interested (was Re: Conflict of Interest)
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 01:06:44 -0700

Ave,

My comments below:

Fortunatus wrote:
>
> Salvete Luci Corneli et Quirites
>
> > But, I think a way to overcome part of this is through the
> > establishment of a time honored Roman tradition of patron/client
> > relationship. I am not saying that we should follow every aspect of
> > what it was like in ancient rome..but more like a tutelage. Where a
> > newer member of Nova Roma is taken under the wing of an "old-timer"
> > and is taught what being in NR is about, how the political system
> > works, and why it works that way....etc.
>
> The problem with the patron-client relationship is that it is predicated
> upon an unequal transaction. The patron gives his or her advice,
> protection, and political aid in return for loyalty and political and
> other aid from the client. This is, essentially, influence peddling,
> and it is institutionalized corruption.

Well of course it is unequal. Here you have an old-timer who has been
in NR for a long time, knows the ropes, has the experience. And, here
you have a newbie. The one underlying aspect in this relationship is
trust. There must be trust between the oldtimer and newbie. This can
only happen in time. But, I think your statement is half correct.
Trust and Loyalty must work both ways. As the old-timer builds up clout
and respect, the newbie shares in that benefit as he/she climbs up the
Cursus Honorum, learns more about NR, and try to achieve any other goal
in Nova Roma. This isn't a type of relationship that will fade in a
year..but will hopefully last while.

> Surely such mentorship can be achieved through newer cives who are
> interested in running for office serving as scribae and accensi,
> preferably for a variety of magistrates, prior to actually standing for
> office. In this way, they can see what the duties of a given office are
> and learn how to fulfill them without incurring the kind of debt that
> clientela involves.

Sure, but even you must admit, that many of our citizens should have
some training even if they are not scribae or accensi. And, even those
citizens who are not interested about serving in politics could benefit
from learning from our older citizens. That way we will have two
avenues available to new citizens. Via scribae etc. And via a
patron/client relationship which will last undoubtedly longer than the
scribae position.
The one drawback between the scribae avenue, is it is for only one
year. whereas I definately see the patron/clientage relationship
lasting a much longer time frame since we, the citizens of Nova Roma are
going from one mindset to a completely new mindset. One year really
isn't enough to educate our new citizens what it really means to be a
Nova Roman. The other drawback I see about the scribae, is that they
will have duties they must do. As Nova Roma grows and develops our
responsibilities will undoubtedly double and triple....thus our reliance
on our scribes and other officials will increase. As this happens, the
ability for those new citizens who are serving in those positions to ask
questions and understand AND for our senior magistrates to answer those
questions and inquiries will lessen. This will not happen if one has a
Patron. For patrons can be magistrates, ex-magistrates or even not
politically orientated citizens.

Respectfully submitted,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

> Valete
> T Labienus Fortunatus
> --
> "People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach
> conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant."
> -Helen Keller
>
>
>
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Egroup Challenge
From:	"Diana Meridia Aurelia" <diana_h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 09:55:06 -0000

The usual way, Quinte, if you so desire - or shall I add you straight
away ?!
We'd certainly be proud to have you (quite apart from thus making our
lead even more pronounced).

Optime vale,
Diana M A

--- In novaroma@--------, "Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@h...>
wrote:
> How do I join!!!
>
> QS
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Diana Meridia Aurelia" <diana_h@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 12:10 PM
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: Egroup Challenge
>
>
> > Salve Quinte Sertori et Omnes,
> >
> > All I can say to that is this:
> > here's to Provincia Germania proudly entering the contest with 31
> > members to its provincial Egroup and an overall population of
> > currently 37 (growing every week).
> >
> > Any challengers ????
> >
> > Valete,
> > Diana Meridia Aurelia
> >
> > Moderatrix NRGermania
> > Scriba Praetoria
> > Materfamilias Gentis Meridiae
> >
> >
> > --- In novaroma@--------, "Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@h...>
> > wrote:
> > > 5 Apre 2001
> > >
> > > Salve All
> > >
> > > I recently sent an email to my Provincial egroup proudly
> > proclaiming to them that our Provincial egroup was the largest in
all
> > NR! This is no longer the case, the largest Provincial egroup is
now
> > the one from America Austroccidentalis with 26 members! WE in
Canada
> > Occidentalis have only 23 on our egroup, but we only have a
> > Provincial population of 21 though! I am now challenging these
other
> > Provincias, especially those with big Provincial populations, to
join
> > their respective Provincial egroups and lets get involved and
knock
> > off the current Champs America Austroccidentalis!
> > >
> > > Vale
> > >
> > > Quintus Sertorius
> > >
> > > Queastor
> > > Nova Roma
> > > Propraetor
> > > Canada Occidentalis
> > >
> > > Join the Main List for Nova Roma
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
> > >
> > > Join the egroup for Canada Occidentalis
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NR_CanOcc
> > >
> > > Join the egroup for the Quintus Sertorius of Old Rome
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sertorii
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Egroup Challenge
From:	"Diana Meridia Aurelia" <diana_h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 10:06:30 -0000

Salve,
who ever said true Roman devotion to one's family is a thing of the
past ??
Thank you, Decime !!

Vale,
Diana Meridia Aurelia
Materfamilias

--- In novaroma@--------, ObsidianBat@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 4/7/01 11:15:05 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
> Salve,
> Sorry that my first post is this but I can't help it, YOU GO
MOM!!! ;)
>
> Valete
> Decimus Meridius Laevinus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Hard lines? (Tax-related)
From:	Craig Stevenson <dougies@-------->
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 20:01:43 +0930

Ave all,

<snip>

1. "Tax collectors": I have no idea what the proper term for such
individuals would be on a provincial or global level, so I hope no one gets
offended by this term. I believe it is imperative that ANYONE entrusted to
gather, distribute and track taxation be bonded or otherwise legally held
responsible in their macro nation for the money.

Sura respondit:
I beleive we would call them publicani, no?

Vale,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

JusticeCMO wrote:

> Salve,
>
> I have been watching the discussions on taxation closely and I am pleased to
> see that the basic idea of "we need to gather funds" appears to be agreed
> upon already. That being said, I have a few thoughts to put forth that may,
> or may not, appear rather "hard line" at the moment but which I feel we need
> to address.
>
> 1. "Tax collectors": I have no idea what the proper term for such
> individuals would be on a provincial or global level, so I hope no one gets
> offended by this term. I believe it is imperative that ANYONE entrusted to
> gather, distribute and track taxation be bonded or otherwise legally held
> responsible in their macro nation for the money. I have been a member of an
> International club whose former president is currently serving 5-7 in St.
> Louis for embezzlement.
>
> I understand that we will have our own laws and such regarding the
> collectors, but those must be in concordance with the macro nations. To wit
> (and please trust me this is not intended as a dig), much as I appreciate
> Draco's willingness to serve in this capacity in his province, I do not
> believe a 17/18 year old would be legally allowed to do so in most areas of
> the world. Other factors aside from age, of course, come into play and I
> think this is a key issue we need to address as we discuss any form of
> taxation.
>
> 2. "Amount of taxation": While I understand the desire to tailor tax amounts
> to some degree so as not to unduly affect certain regions, I think we need
> to have a base rate and grant exemptions on a case by case basis. Most
> international groups do not tailor their membership fees to local regions.
> For one small example, if I wish to purchase a British wedding magazine here
> in New Jersey, that magazine will cost (on average) about 2-3 dollars more
> than an American one. The clerk at the book store does not calculate the
> price based on my salary, my country of origin or the GNP. Likewise, I know
> that an International subscription (considered outside the USA) to National
> Geographic Magazine costs far more than a standard subscription. I can say
> with relative confidence that the publishers do not factor in whether a
> person subscribing from an impoverished area can really afford the magazine.
>
> All that being said, I feel very strongly that we ought to have a set tax
> across the board. I also feel there should be levels, to take into account
> students and seniors and family memberships. But to try and calculate taxes
> based on GNP and purchasing parity and other such factors needlessly muddies
> the job of all tax collectors to an unbearable point.
>
> 3. "Citizens who do not pay": I suppose this is where I may seem most
> *hard-line* of all. I, personally, believe that ALL citizens must pay a tax
> if they wish to remain citizens. It has been suggested that those who
> choose not to pay be placed in certain tribes and therefore not be given a
> very loud voice in politics. That still allows them to subscribe to all of
> our lists, participate in debates, run for office, etc. I have a real
> problem with that. While I am very glad to see our numbers swell, I would
> much prefer to have a nation of 100 active committed, participating cives
> than 800, of which 700 sit back and contribute nothing. (Mind you, I do not
> mean to imply we currently have 700 "non-doers".)
>
> I believe if a person wishes to be a part of Nova Roma they ought to be
> willing to put their money where their mouth is, just the same as any other
> organization would require. Given that I already addressed the exceptions
> to taxation above, I also feel comfortable saying this policy ought not turn
> away the rare individual who *truly* cannot afford the tax but wants to be a
> member. Let us be frank with ourselves.......we currently cannot even
> obtain a voter turn-out of 50%. Yes, such a hard line on taxation might
> drive some away, but if those who are driven away are among those who do not
> even bother to vote at this point, are we really losing?
>
> Well, there you have it........a few ideas for the masses to chew upon. :)
> As the subject line reads, I know they may seem rather "hard-line", but
> since I hadn't seen the thoughts tossed out for discussion yet I figured the
> time has come. I look forward to productive discussion on the topics above.
>
> Vale,
> Priscilla Vedia Serena
>
>
>
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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] 1. Report 2. Proposal of Regula 3. Proposal of Plan
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 03:33:45 -0700

Salve Caeso Fabi;

Just a short note saying what an excellent provincial
report! Well-structured, detailed and easy to follow.
This will make a nice model for others to follow.

Great job!!!

Bene vale,
Oppius Flaccus Severus, Legatus America Boreoccidentalis Major
-----Original Message-----
From: Christer Edling [mailto:tjalens.h@--------]
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 5:13 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Cc: ThuleNovaRoma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] 1. Report 2. Proposal of Regula 3. Proposal of Plan

REPORT
ABOUT THE STATE OF THE PROVINCIA THULE

8 April 2001
From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, Propraetor Thules

Salve All!

This is a report from the Provincia to the citizens of Thule. I send this
report, as I, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, Propraetor Thules has assumed the
Propraetorship of our Provincia as of 4th April 2001, but the New Official
Provincial Nova Roma presence will begin as of 15th April 2001, the same
day as my two founding Edictas (Regula and Plan) will be sanctioned and
published. This report will address the present state of our Provincia, and
what actions will be taken to organise it.

<snipped>

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Hard lines? (Tax-related)
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 03:48:44 -0700

Salvete Priscilla Vedia et Quiritibus;

Since this is partially a 'me too,' post I'll
keep it brief. I don't think this is a hard-line
approach at all. In fact, I've been advocating
many of the issues stated here for a while.

It could be further stated in this context, that people tend to
feel a stronger obligation to that in which their
pocketbook is inextricably tied. If one is vested
in anything; be it an organization or company, one
is much more likely to work toward the success of same.

Quirites; if we want to really grow at all and
become the substantive organization that many of
us want to see, it will take money. Non-profit
organizations require substantial funds to function
properly as do 'for profit' ones.

As a civis who has contributed actual money to Nova Roma,
I fully believe in the goals and tenets of our
constitution and mission statements and know that
continued financial support from all our citizens;
regardless of personal circumstance is needed
to grow. If we are all serious in this endeavor,
then sharing a few denarii with our great Respublica
will be done gladly.

Bene valete,
Oppius Flaccus Severus, Legatus America Boreoccidentalis Major
Sacerdos Neptunus
-----Original Message-----
From: JusticeCMO [mailto:justicecmo@--------]
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 10:08 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Hard lines? (Tax-related)

Salve,

I have been watching the discussions on taxation closely and I am pleased to
see that the basic idea of "we need to gather funds" appears to be agreed
upon already. That being said, I have a few thoughts to put forth that may,
or may not, appear rather "hard line" at the moment but which I feel we need
to address.

<snipped>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Clientelism and Gens Recruiting
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 11:24:35 +0200

S. Apollonius Draco G. Cassio Nervae SPD

> I have to admit this conversation has me a little concerned, and I hope my
> concerns are baseless. But when Draco and anyone else who may agree with
him
> consider clientelism a danger, leading to corruption, doesn't this bother
you
> a bit? I have to ask myself what their goal is. Is it some sort of
> regulating what kind of business relationships we, as citizens, may enter
> into? Does Draco want to protect us from some kind of dangerous liason?
I
> hope not, and I hope I have misread his intentions. Because, as a free
man,
> I have no wish or need for such "protection". I am perfectly capable of
> choosing my associations myself, thank you very much.
>

I wasn't advocating some sort of protection programme for newbies. You're
right that everyone is his own man (or woman) and has the right to freely
choose his or her own loyalties in life. I wasn't trying to make people
sound stupid (although frankly people can be quite stupid from time to time,
but that's beside the point here), but especially regarding internet
friendships and/or loyalties, people can be misled easily. That is why I'm
so very precautious about this clientelism. It's halfway down loyalty and
friendship, and I'd prefer the latter if it were up to me, but if you're
stuck with a patronus who appears to be not your friend later on, then what
to do? You seek another patronus, angering your former one who has the power
to destroy your public reputation. If the relation is good, the benefits are
mutual, if not, the destruction is probably going to be much one-sided.

> This reminds me of a similar issue I saw in the taverna some time ago,
> perhaps early March. I only half-paid attention then, and frankly I can't
> even remember who was doing the talking,but the subject was about whether
or
> not it is wrong to actively recruit potential new citizens into your own
> gens. One guy thought it somehow wrong and corrupt. I disagree totally.
If
> someone wants a larger gens, why not invite or encourage people to join?
And
> what law does this break? I glanced through the laws in the tabularium,
and
> found none prohibiting this practice.
>
> The fellow who was opposed to gens-recruiting has something in common with
> those who are opposed to the clientage option. Both are wannabe social
> engineers, regulating the kind of associations and relationships we free
> citizens have. We ARE adults here, or at least most of us are, are we
not?
> We ARE capable of deciding for ourselves, aren't we?
>
> If Draco and the long forgotten person who was dead-set against gens
> recruiting are in fact advocating such regulating of our own social lives,
> then I really hope these guys are the minority. And I hope still more
that I
> am misreading their goals and that they have no such agenda for us.

Instituting clientelism, that is a regulation of social life! Merely being
opposed to it is not, imo. For the record: I'm not against convincing people
to join your gens, and I have no idea who that other person was. But it
depends on the situation, of course: I wouldn't do this with a prospective
citizen who is merely asking me information about citizenship. I might
suggest it, but I'd never try to "win him over".

Vale bene!
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Clientelism (a general comment)
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 11:34:18 +0200

Salve Senator Australice,

> >
> >> This is the second time you have made this preposterous statement. One
> >> can only think that you must be looking for excuses to repeat it
because
> >> you are trolling for a response. Let me oblige so that you won't have
to
> >> keep finding excuses to repeat that assertion ad infinitum.
> >>
> >
> >Not so long ago you accused Formosanus of being a crusader; now look what
> >you're doing.

> It escapes me, Draco - you tell me what I'm doing. I don't recall having
> accused Formosanus of being a "crusader" and I certainly haven't accused
> Limitanus of it. I have specifically accused him of trolling. Different
> words have different meanings. Kindly don't put your own words in my
> mouth.

You may not have °said° he was a crusader, but you did call him a destroyer
of the state (or something along those lines). Granted, that was during the
elections of last year, and everyone was tensed. I'm not telling you what
you're doing, I'm merely comparing you to people you so vehemently accused
of similar things (note: I said, similar, not the same).

> >> To assert that those who would despise their sacred oaths, abandon
their
> >> duty posts, and desert their friends and compatriots, all because some
> >> things were not going entirely the way they wanted, can be described as
> >> "the best of us" is ludicrous. If those were the actions of "the best
of
> >> us," we would be in a sorry state indeed. I thought highly of many of
> >> those people until they showed their true colors. The best of us? Don't
> >> make me laugh. In the old days, we would all have taken staves and
beaten
> >> them to death for desertion.
> >
> >Excuse me? Attacking people who aren't here to defend themselves from
this
> >vicious twisting of the truth is a little cheap.

> Well, Draco, to make themselves conveniently absent from the field hardly
> ties the hands of the rest of us, does it? As to "vicious twisting of the
> truth," where is that occurring? Did not several of these people swear
> sacred oaths to do the various duties they each undertook freely? Did
> they not preemptorily abandon those duties in open contempt of those
> oaths? If this is not fact, then please enlighten us as to your version
> of the "truth" about their conduct. Note I did not say, whine to us about
> how unappreciated and mistreated they were. Tell us how their leaving as
> they did was true to the sacred oaths they swore.

Here I think our viewpoints differ. I think their departure was not about
NR, nor was it about impersonal things such as an oath of office - things
they did respect. If they weren't "true" then please care to explain me why,
for example, Vado knew both Latin and ancient Greek, Piscinus was of pagan
Italic heritage and Livia did so much effort to put together face to face
meetings among Novaromani? This is much different from many so-called Romans
among us who swear their oath of office and remain passive for the rest of
the year, not showing a speck of Romanitas (or activity, for that matter) at
all. Now, you can say that activity does not equal Romanitas, and you'll be
right, but this is to show you that they felt no contempt for NR in se, but
had problems with some situations and persons here that they felt could not
be overcome, and were not worth the efforts to fight against. I'd be happy
to go into detail about this privately.

> >> On the other hand, if you are so certain that "the best of us" are
gone,
> >> why are you still here?
> >
> >Why don't you add "leave NR, so you can be backstabbed later in the same
> >fashion"? This sort of anger makes me suspicious, I must say.

> I did not say that because I did not intend that message, Draco - those
> are your words, not mine. Do you find it so hard to criticize what I say
> that you have to put other words in my mouth in order to argue against
> your own words instead of against mine?
>
> And where do you get off imputing anger to me? There is no anger in that
> remark - only disgust.

Disgust then. I found your speech at the end nearly implying that he should
leave just as well; you didn't say things litterally, but it was an
interpretation that was quite obvious in that context.

> You have a good mind and an artful tongue, Draco. Don't waste them on
> causes that are not worthy of you. Your loyalty to your friends does you
> credit, but it is carried too far when you twist my words and accuse me
> of things I haven't expressed.

Vale bene,
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Old Business II: Resignation Edict
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 11:42:05 +0200

Salve, O Consul,

> > Opponents of this edict said that people who °really° want out simply
> won't
> > care for this edictum, while people who truly love Roma are being
punished
> > by this. This was and is a non-solution for a non-problem.
>
> Do you perhaps mean "care about" rather than "care for"? It would make
more
> sense...

Yes, I did mean that. As you know, English is not my native tongue.

> I do disagree that it's a non-problem, however. All too often, people
think
> they have to leave Nova Roma completely for some imagined slight they've
> suffered or failing they have committed. Many times, the impetuous
emotions
> of the moment overcome clearer thought and consideration, and the decision
> to leave is later regretted and re-thought. Indeed; this just happened in
> two recent cases, and I must say that Nova Roma is much the better for
those
> individuals having reconsidered their decision to leave.
>

The Exodus of March wasn't really regretted later, if you mean that one. I'm
awaiting examples of people who continually left and came back.

> > Why would the Censores have power over the Senate in this matter? In
fact,
> > they are both Senatores, so even if 18 out of 20 Senatores vote in
favour
> of
> > said citizen, the two Censores could still prevent that citizen from
> > returning into the Senate. So I'd scrap the Censores from this
paragraph.
>
> Paragraph IV.A.1.d. of the Constitution does give the Censores the
authority
> to "add and remove names on that list [the Album Senatorium] according to
> qualifications set by law". Remember that part of their job is to
safeguard
> the public honor, and this could be seen as an extension of that
> responsibility (in a broad sense).

True. But my example is still standing as an example of that inequal power
distrubution (at least, it's inequal in my opinion). Note: perhaps the law
could be changed?

> > "Contempt for the state" sounds, and I am sorry to say it, °very°
> > authoritarian. However, I do think two paragraphs above are better, and
> > truly offer a solution (for what is still a non-problem anyway) in case
> some
> > cives keep leaving and coming back. I'd change the "two years" to six
> months
> > though.

>
> Would "contempt for the Republic" sound better? :-) Honestly I wouldn't
get
> so caught up in such semantics, and stop looking for authoritarianism
where
> it isn't to be found.
>

I just said it sounded that way.

> And I must say that I think you are viewing the question through the eyes
of
> a 17 year old. While two years might seem like an eternity to you right
now,
> eventually I think you'll come to understand that in the grand scheme of
> things it's really not that long to wait for something in which you
really,
> truly believe. (Of course, if that was the case, why would one leave in
the
> first place? But that's the whole problem, of course...)

*raises an eyebrow* Why this constant reference to my age again? My
viewpoint on the length of two years °may° change, but I'm afraid it won't.
I don't feel this has anything to do with my age. The opponents of this
edictum had the same idea about this time period as me, if I recall it
correctly.

Vale bene,
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Scriba Aedilis Plebis,
Lupercus Fabianus
Coryphaeus Sodalitatis Musarum,
Musaeus Collegii Eratus,
Musaeus Collegii Uraniae
Triumvir Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
Darkling_Crawler, Yahoo IM

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Clientelism (a general comment)
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 12:02:59 +0200

Salve Oppi Flacce,

> (noooo Quirites, you're not rid of me yet!)
>
> OFS: I hope not mi Draco -debates would be boring
> without you! :-) You're not rid of me either :-)
>

*smirks* Glad to hear that :).

> Draco writes:
> You are reversing the situation. It's not because my relations with the
good
> Censor aren't very good that I disagree with this.
>
> OFS: No problem Draco -for the record, I did not intend to imply,
> nor did I infer directly from what you yourself said that your
> comments had anything directly to do with Sulla. That particular
> comment was a direct response to Manius Villius Limitanus, who
> seemed to be trawling for one as L. Sergius suggested; and got
> one. It was Mani that made the direct personal attack. Your
> comments on the other hand were general regarding the idea
> itself.
>

Agreed, but "usual suspects" was plural.

(snipped)

> So -for the record, there is no personal *grudge* or anything held
> on my behalf towards those that left -on an individual basis.
> It is simply because they left *as a collective,* and invoked
> some brief chaos and instability in their wake (as I believe
> must have been their intention,) then they deserve to be viewed
> as a collective. For those of us who do value our citizenship
> and stick it out through all the good *and* bad times, watching
> people who acting as a collective turn on the Respublica
> like that will never be looked upon favorably by me. Period.
>

They made the balance of good and bad for themselves in NR, and then decided
to leave. They'd stuck around long enough to make that balance for
themselves.

> I think perhaps a key difference between some of us that look
> differently upon on the matter is that there are those who
> look to separate an individual from a collective action and
> those who think that individuals deciding to operate as a single
> unit be thusly addressed. My opinions of course fall towards
> the latter. Intentions, feelings, state of health and related
> concerns matter not to me in a collective action.
>
> And also for the record, it should be remembered that those
> leaving threw plenty of grenades behind their backs as they
> departed as well.

You're right, I didn't entirely agree with this as well.

> Draco writes:
> There were positive aspects in slavery as well. I simply think the bad
> possibilites in this are outweighing the good ones.
>
> OFS: Then that's fine Draco, we can disagree on that as well.
> You seem to want to find potential for evil and corruption behind
> every corner. With all due respect, this is not a discussion of slavery
and
> *slavery,* has nothing to do with a productive client/patron
> relationship; especially when it is mutually beneficial AND it's
> done in the manner of an 'apprenticeship,' which is the
> context in which it was trying to be discussed in the
> first place. Consul Germanicus, Praetor Fabius and others
> have already spoken to the actual practices and positive
> aspects and I have nothing to further to add to what
> has already been said there.

Of course, there's a difference between slavery and clientelism. But I find
the possible bad consequences of clientelism (abuse of trust, corruption,
nepotism) to be outweighing the good consequences (friendship, loyalty,
experience) still. Of course, as Nerva says, it's a citizen's right to
choose for himself, but I for one will never be someone's cliens, nor will I
be someone's patronus.

> Draco Writes:
> There's a difference between running away and simply taking a different
> course. Tutelage is in itself a good thing, and would work quite well in
the
> real world, but internet communication, as it is based on even more trust,
> lends itself to larger forms of abuse than real-world-trust.
>
> OFS: Ah, but tutelage in itself *is* what is being discussed.
> A time-honored tradition in Roma Mater and regardless of efforts
> to give it an out-of-hand negative spin, also had positive aspects.
> I do agree that the Internet-medium is much more complex in some
> ways to manage the various nuances of communication. I've spoken
> on this before. Also, having advocated real-world meetings and phone
> discussions I will grant you that for client/patron/tutelage to
> be successful, equitable and beneficial to both parties involved;
> then real and personal communication must accompany the written/e-mail
> forms of communication. Trust is complex in *any* relationship, no
> matter what the variety and nature of the relationship is.
> Though I haven't been completely through all my mail yet today,
> I believe that Nerva addressed this pretty well and I have nothing
> much further to add.
>

I agree with your reasoning above. But if Cliens X resides in let's say
Saudi Arabia, and Patronus Y resides in Alaska, there will be problems.

(snipped)

> Draco writes:
> Point is; it's hard to have the good things without the bad things on
> a certain aspect. If you want to have a car that can drive say past the
> speed of sound, you have a great security risk. You can also opt not have
> that super fast car at all, to avoid getting (pretty likely) killed in a
> crash one day.
>
> OFS: I'm not sure I completely follow your reasoning here,
> but I think (correct me if I'm wrong,) you're saying that we
> should only want to ever see the absolute 'good' things without
> any of the nasty bad stuff. Well, the 'good and bad' might be
> a better topic for kicking off some wanted activity on the
> Philosophy list; but as far as *real life* goes, there's always
> 'good' and 'bad' inherent in anything and everything. Every
> road, every twist of fate. What may be 'good' for one, may be
> 'bad' for another. To say that because one chooses a path that *may*
> lead to 'badness' (emphasis on the *may*) somewhere down the
> road is frankly not realistic Draco.
>
> Life is what we make it, the choices we make thusly are ours
> to deal with.

Correct. Everything has good and bad consequences, but as stated before, I
personally see more bad than good consequences going along with this.

> (snipped)
>
> Salve Praetor Maxime; scripsisti, inter alia:
>
> >> Must be because I see it as a help, and you see it as a problem. <<
>
> Draco writes:
> "Help" and "problem" are no oppositons. Help becomes a problem when it
> becomes a moral obligation (cfr. "returning the favour" in something the
> cliens doesn't like at all).
>
> OFS: Who imposed the 'moral' obligation Draco? Is this one
> of those 'absolute free will' type of arguments?
> Let me just say a little bit about 'obligation' here. Life,
> is *full* of obligations. Moral, physical, spiritual.
> We have obligations to our friends, obligations to our employers,
> obligations to our spouses and partners, obligations to family,
> etc. How two or more people in *any* sort of relationship
> deal with these obligations, or 'feel' about them is up to
> their own moral fiber.
>

Whether or not this obligation exists depends on the one who experiences it
that way. It's not an obligation towards your employer you feel, but an
obligation towards °yourself° to do certain things for that employer. Which
is your own choice.

> One could split hairs between terms such as obligation and
> loyalty for example. There are worse things in life than
> those having no 'obligations,' traditions to follow or
> family to fall back on. One of the many things that made
> Roma Mater so great was the sense of 'obligation' that
> the citizens felt for it. One could say that the sanitized,
> 'rainbow frosted,' notion of Roma espoused by some is not
> glorious at all. -Perspective, all in one's perspective.
>

I fully agree!

> Draco writes:
> True, but a newbie can be easy to delude and mislead. This is dangerous.
>
> OFS: Delude and mislead. Hmm...not much I can say in response
> to such a statement. If our cives are so easily deluded, mislead
> and manipulated then we have no future anyway. I however, do not
> for a moment believe this to be the case. We are intelligent,
> learned, adult and capable of making our own decisions. Again;
> you make an assumption that someone entering into a relationship
> with another in NR will ultimately lead to the corruption or
> destruction of one or more of these parties.
>

Not necessarily. There's just a larger chance of it happening.

(snipped)

> Draco writes:
> Why don't you add "leave NR, so you can be backstabbed later in the same
> fashion"? This sort of anger makes me suspicious, I must say.
>
> OFS: The sort of anger that leads to the usage of
> terms such as 'backstabbed' could also be held in
> suspicion. Personally, I don't view it that way as I
> know you were close friends with some of the departed.
> Speaking *truths* of a situation can not be called by
> any reasonable account 'backstabbing.'

If truth depends on viewpoint, truth cannot be absolute. You may see nothing
wrong with damaging the reputation of people who left (and are therefore
defenceless), but I do.

(snipped)

Vale bene!
Draco

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Appointments in Thule 7th April 2754
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 03:51:34 -0700

Salvete Cives of Thule et Quiritibus;

Congratulations to all the new officers of
Thule! Your provincial organization is looking
quite excellent.

Bene valete,
Oppius Flaccus Severus, Legatus America Boreoccidentalis Major
-----Original Message-----
From: Christer Edling [mailto:tjalens.h@--------]
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 12:26 PM
To: Nova Roma
Cc: ThuleNovaRoma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Appointments in Thule 7th April 2754

Ex Officio Propraetoris Thulae

Edictum Propraetoricium II
about the appointment of Legati and Scribae

It is a great pleasure for me, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, to appoint the
following Honorable citizens to official positions within Provincia Thule!
I, as Nova Roma citizens within the Provincia Thule, am proud to see the
Gravitas and Pietas these citizens show!

<snipped>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Egroup Challenge
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 06:09:40 -0500

Please add me then, here is my email, quintus-sertorius@ home.com . Thank
you very much!

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Diana Meridia Aurelia" <diana_h@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 4:55 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Egroup Challenge

> The usual way, Quinte, if you so desire - or shall I add you straight
> away ?!
> We'd certainly be proud to have you (quite apart from thus making our
> lead even more pronounced).
>
> Optime vale,
> Diana M A
>
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, "Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@h...>
> wrote:
> > How do I join!!!
> >
> > QS
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Diana Meridia Aurelia" <diana_h@-------->
> > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 12:10 PM
> > Subject: [novaroma] Re: Egroup Challenge
> >
> >
> > > Salve Quinte Sertori et Omnes,
> > >
> > > All I can say to that is this:
> > > here's to Provincia Germania proudly entering the contest with 31
> > > members to its provincial Egroup and an overall population of
> > > currently 37 (growing every week).
> > >
> > > Any challengers ????
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > > Diana Meridia Aurelia
> > >
> > > Moderatrix NRGermania
> > > Scriba Praetoria
> > > Materfamilias Gentis Meridiae
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In novaroma@--------, "Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@h...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > 5 Apre 2001
> > > >
> > > > Salve All
> > > >
> > > > I recently sent an email to my Provincial egroup proudly
> > > proclaiming to them that our Provincial egroup was the largest in
> all
> > > NR! This is no longer the case, the largest Provincial egroup is
> now
> > > the one from America Austroccidentalis with 26 members! WE in
> Canada
> > > Occidentalis have only 23 on our egroup, but we only have a
> > > Provincial population of 21 though! I am now challenging these
> other
> > > Provincias, especially those with big Provincial populations, to
> join
> > > their respective Provincial egroups and lets get involved and
> knock
> > > off the current Champs America Austroccidentalis!
> > > >
> > > > Vale
> > > >
> > > > Quintus Sertorius
> > > >
> > > > Queastor
> > > > Nova Roma
> > > > Propraetor
> > > > Canada Occidentalis
> > > >
> > > > Join the Main List for Nova Roma
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
> > > >
> > > > Join the egroup for Canada Occidentalis
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NR_CanOcc
> > > >
> > > > Join the egroup for the Quintus Sertorius of Old Rome
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sertorii
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Egroup Challenge
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 06:29:31 -0500

I made a misteke in my addy, I put a space between @ and home. Here is the
correct addy, quintus-sertorius@-------- Thank you once more.

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 6:09 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Egroup Challenge

> Please add me then, here is my email, quintus-sertorius@ home.com . Thank
> you very much!
>
> QS
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Diana Meridia Aurelia" <diana_h@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 4:55 AM
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: Egroup Challenge
>
>
> > The usual way, Quinte, if you so desire - or shall I add you straight
> > away ?!
> > We'd certainly be proud to have you (quite apart from thus making our
> > lead even more pronounced).
> >
> > Optime vale,
> > Diana M A
> >
> >
> > --- In novaroma@--------, "Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@h...>
> > wrote:
> > > How do I join!!!
> > >
> > > QS
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Diana Meridia Aurelia" <diana_h@-------->
> > > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 12:10 PM
> > > Subject: [novaroma] Re: Egroup Challenge
> > >
> > >
> > > > Salve Quinte Sertori et Omnes,
> > > >
> > > > All I can say to that is this:
> > > > here's to Provincia Germania proudly entering the contest with 31
> > > > members to its provincial Egroup and an overall population of
> > > > currently 37 (growing every week).
> > > >
> > > > Any challengers ????
> > > >
> > > > Valete,
> > > > Diana Meridia Aurelia
> > > >
> > > > Moderatrix NRGermania
> > > > Scriba Praetoria
> > > > Materfamilias Gentis Meridiae
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In novaroma@--------, "Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@h...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > 5 Apre 2001
> > > > >
> > > > > Salve All
> > > > >
> > > > > I recently sent an email to my Provincial egroup proudly
> > > > proclaiming to them that our Provincial egroup was the largest in
> > all
> > > > NR! This is no longer the case, the largest Provincial egroup is
> > now
> > > > the one from America Austroccidentalis with 26 members! WE in
> > Canada
> > > > Occidentalis have only 23 on our egroup, but we only have a
> > > > Provincial population of 21 though! I am now challenging these
> > other
> > > > Provincias, especially those with big Provincial populations, to
> > join
> > > > their respective Provincial egroups and lets get involved and
> > knock
> > > > off the current Champs America Austroccidentalis!
> > > > >
> > > > > Vale
> > > > >
> > > > > Quintus Sertorius
> > > > >
> > > > > Queastor
> > > > > Nova Roma
> > > > > Propraetor
> > > > > Canada Occidentalis
> > > > >
> > > > > Join the Main List for Nova Roma
> > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
> > > > >
> > > > > Join the egroup for Canada Occidentalis
> > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NR_CanOcc
> > > > >
> > > > > Join the egroup for the Quintus Sertorius of Old Rome
> > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sertorii
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Egroup Challenge
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 06:35:38 -0500

What is good to see is that once we started this challenge I have seen the
actual numbers increase in several egroups! I guess some people are glad the
be able to know about the various egroups available in NR, and thus be able
to join!

QS

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Clientelism (a general comment)
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 04:59:17 -0700

Salve Draco,
-----Original Message-----
From: S. Apollonius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 3:03 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Clientelism (a general comment)

Salve Oppi Flacce,

<snipped>
>
> OFS: No problem Draco -for the record, I did not intend to imply,
> nor did I infer directly from what you yourself said that your
> comments had anything directly to do with Sulla. That particular
> comment was a direct response to Manius Villius Limitanus, who
> seemed to be trawling for one as L. Sergius suggested; and got
> one. It was Mani that made the direct personal attack. Your
> comments on the other hand were general regarding the idea
> itself.
>

Draco writes:
Agreed, but "usual suspects" was plural.

OFS: Indeed it was and my apologies for not being more
specific. In addressing the commonality of approach
in discussing the theme, there was not significant differentiation
on my part in the response.

(snipped)

<snipped>

Draco writes:
They made the balance of good and bad for themselves in NR, and then decided
to leave. They'd stuck around long enough to make that balance for
themselves.

OFS: That's fine; but as you say it very much was
a balance of 'good and bad' for *themselves,* was and is
about *themselves,* and not Nova Roma as a whole. the problem
is that there has been an express implication in the posts
of some closely allied and friends with the departed ones,
that their view of NR and its 'badness,' was somehow a universal
one or that it applied to anyone outside of their circle.

<partial snip>

> And also for the record, it should be remembered that those
> leaving threw plenty of grenades behind their backs as they
> departed as well.

Draco writes:
You're right, I didn't entirely agree with this as well.

OFS: Agreed then we don't agree :-)

<snipped>

Draco writes:
Of course, there's a difference between slavery and clientelism. But I find
the possible bad consequences of clientelism (abuse of trust, corruption,
nepotism) to be outweighing the good consequences (friendship, loyalty,
experience) still. Of course, as Nerva says, it's a citizen's right to
choose for himself, but I for one will never be someone's cliens, nor will I
be someone's patronus.

OFS: And this I can truly appreciate. This indeed at the
root of the issue; -one's choice. Clientelism is not a
mandated practice in Nova Roma. In fact, *no one* has to engage
in it if they choose not to. There is more choice here
then I think you give credit for. Clientelism in the
context discussed, can simply be regarded as a contract
between two people -IF they choose to regard it in contractual
terms. Likewise, it can simply be an agreement between
two or more people as to how they wish to conduct a particular
relationship. It is certainly imperative that those
considering entering into a relation be very 'up front' with
one another in establishing the guidelines.

You do seem to have a real propensity to want to see an
overtly negative balance in some of those things in which
you do not agree.

<snipped>
>
> OFS: Ah, but tutelage in itself *is* what is being discussed.
> A time-honored tradition in Roma Mater and regardless of efforts
> to give it an out-of-hand negative spin, also had positive aspects.
> I do agree that the Internet-medium is much more complex in some
> ways to manage the various nuances of communication. I've spoken
> on this before. Also, having advocated real-world meetings and phone
> discussions I will grant you that for client/patron/tutelage to
> be successful, equitable and beneficial to both parties involved;
> then real and personal communication must accompany the written/e-mail
> forms of communication. Trust is complex in *any* relationship, no
> matter what the variety and nature of the relationship is.
> Though I haven't been completely through all my mail yet today,
> I believe that Nerva addressed this pretty well and I have nothing
> much further to add.
>
Draco writes:
I agree with your reasoning above. But if Cliens X resides in let's say
Saudi Arabia, and Patronus Y resides in Alaska, there will be problems.

OFS: Problems? I hate to try and infer too much from this,
but I *think* you're referring to linguistic and cultural barriers?
If so, then certainly -cultural differences would exist in a
relationship between any two cives from any two different
countries.

However, two things:
1-It is highly unlikely that such a relationship between a Saudi
and an American would be entered into the first place. -Not
impossible by any means, just unlikely. It is far more likely
that those entering into such an agreement are going to have
some modicum of cultural and/or linguistic similarities.

2-If these same two hypothetical individuals did say go against
the grain and discuss entering into a patron/client relationship,
then it would be up to them to determine the boundaries and
conduct of such a relationship. If the individuals in question
felt they had enough solid grounds for creating their own relationship
and agreement; then each is responsible for the other under
the terms of same, at their own discretion.

(snipped)

<snipped>

Draco writes:
Correct. Everything has good and bad consequences, but as stated before, I
personally see more bad than good consequences going along with this.

OFS: Understood, and I respect your difference of opinion.

> (snipped)
<snipped>

Draco writes:
Whether or not this obligation exists depends on the one who experiences it
that way. It's not an obligation towards your employer you feel, but an
obligation towards °yourself° to do certain things for that employer. Which
is your own choice.

OFS: Well, honestly I think we're traveling down old
'semantics road' here. Yes, I agree that 'obligations' are
subjective relative to those that hold them. However, to say
that it is always 'to oneself' (getting back to my question
of your 'freewill' type argument,) that the obligation is directed
is not accurate. As people, we are capable of much broader
senses of obligation to many different things. In the employer
scenario, it is quite possible for one to feel 'obliged'
to do well not only for one's own sake, but also for the
sake of a boss, a co-worker, the success of the company/project/
venture.

<snipped>

Draco writes:
If truth depends on viewpoint, truth cannot be absolute. You may see nothing
wrong with damaging the reputation of people who left (and are therefore
defenceless), but I do.

OFS: Well, perhaps we can clarify a few things here for the sake
of our discussion.

1-Truth does not necessarily depend on viewpoint. There are many different
'types' and levels of 'truth.' -Actually, another good discussion for
the Philosophy list that you were shamelessly promoting :-) The question
of 'what is truth' I think is a bit broad and interpretive for this
discussion.

That being said, let me break down my context of discussion into the "Vastly
Simplified,
Oppius View of Truth" -sounded a bit melodramatic eh? Ok, will this code
of truth sees two 'shades' of truth. Absolute and subjective. Here is
the absolute: "They left." We as Novaromani are here, *they* are not.
Period. Even on the metaphysical level, it would be difficult to make
a substantive case for them not being here, unless we're getting into
the dimensional, mental and molecular levels. In Oppi's view of "Absolute
Truth,"
the fact that 'they are not here,' is difficult to argue. (Ok, yes
they do live on in our minds/memories, but to be very specific -I'm
addressing the 'physicality' of their 'non-here' state.)

Subjective truth on the other hand, is a different thing all together.
I can say "truth is, those that left were wrong to do so because of
x, y and z." You can say, "but those that left us had good, true and
honorable reasons for doing so." Thus, you have your own 'variation'
on the 'absolute' truth of them being gone, while I have mine. Since
in the cosmic scheme of things, it can be argued that neither view may
be 'absolute truth,' we can only go by commonality of opinion and feeling.

2-I fail to see that I've said anywhere that it's ok to wantonly work
to 'damage' someone's reputation. Those that left have every ability
to post to the main list with any view or 'defense' that they choose. The list
is
public, any 'accusations' that I can think of made by either themselves
or Novaromani were done so on the public list which I believe is
open to all, citizens or not. So the argument that they are 'defenseless'
is a baseless one.

Now, I *will* agree that name calling, pointless bashing and the like
serve no good purpose. For myself, it is only when someone comes forward
to make people out to be saints and glorious martyrs for acts that others
may view as treasonous, that the discussion begs a different point of view.
This is what myself and others have done.

Bene valete,
-Oppius

(snipped)

<snipped>

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Results of vote in Comitia Populi
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 05:03:37 -0700

Salvete Domna Claudia et Quiritibus;

Congratulations Domna on your new
position as Rogator! I know you will
do an excellent job with it, as you do in
all your other endeavors.

Gratias multas additionally to Franciscus
Apulus Caesar et Titus Curius Dannicus
for running a strong campaign and for stepping
forward in the service of Roma when called
upon. I salute your efforts!

Also, congratulations to Consul Germanice
et Tribune Labiene for the successful passage
of such excellent Leges. Both solved some very
key issues and were very much needed.

Bene valete,
-Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus [mailto:germanicus@--------]
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 4:55 PM
To: novaroma@--------; novaromaannounce@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Results of vote in Comitia Populi

Flavius Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.

The results of the recent election in the Comitia Populi Tributa have been
reported, and are as follow:

In the election for the post of rogator, 3 tribes voted for Franciscus
Apulus Caesar, 10 tribes voted for Domna Claudia Auspicata, 8 tribes voted
for Titus Curius Dannicus, 10 tribes tied, 2 tribes abstained, and 2 tribes
failed to vote. Domna Claudia Auspicata wins the position.

In the vote on the Lex Vedia de Ratione Comitiorum Populi Tributorum, 31
tribes voted in favor, 1 tribe voted against, 1 tribe abstained, and 2
tribes failed to vote. The lex is passed.

In the vote on the Lex Labienia de Edictium Vigintisexviris, 30 tribes voted
in favor, 0 tribes voted against, 2 tribes tied, 1 tribe abstained, and 2
tribes failed to vote. The lex is passed.

My thanks to all who voted, congratulations to Domna Claudia, and
condolences to Franciscus Apulus and Titus Curius.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Appointments in Thule 7th April 2754
From:	Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@-------->
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 14:11:50 +0200

Ave, quirites.

I, Titus Octavius Pius (Kristoffer From), do hereby solemnly swear to
uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests
of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.
As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Titus Octavius Pius (Kristoffer
From), swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public
dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.
I, Titus Octavius Pius (Kristoffer From), swear to uphold and defend
the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to
act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.
I, Titus Octavius Pius (Kristoffer From), swear to protect and defend
the Constitution of Nova Roma.
I, Titus Octavius Pius (Kristoffer From), further swear to fulfill
the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Consilarius to the
best of my abilities.
On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I
accept the position of Consilarius and all the rights, privileges,
obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
cives Thuleus,
Praeco Aranei Thules,
Consilarius Thules

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Provincial Announcements
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 06:54:00 -0500

Ah, the dangers of belonging to many egroups! This too I suffer.

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 2:32 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Provincial Announcements

> Salvete omnes
>
> This isn't any sort of official edictum or anything; just a statement of
> intent.
>
> From now on, I will not be cross-posting announcements to the main list
that
> deal with subjects internal to Mediatlantica Provincia. This includes
> appointments, announcements of events, etc. (Although events announcements
> will be cross-posted to those provincial email lists whose members could
> conceivably attend.)
>
> I'm doing this both to keep down on the clutter on the main list and to
give
> people a reason to subscribe to the Mediatlantica list without suffering
> through duplicates of almost all the mail they receive. :-)
>
> Anyone is welcome, of course, to subscribe to the Mediatlantica email
list.
> Just go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mediatlantica and you should be
> able to subscribe.
>
> Next year in the Forum!
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
> email: germanicus@--------
> AIM: Flavius Vedius
> www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Taxes (A Challenge)
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 12:11:44 -0000

Salvete Quirites,

After following the threads on Taxes I'm delighted to find so many
Nova Romans support this idea.

To show my support for this idea I have just made a $US 25.00 donation
to Nova Roma by using the PayPal on the Nova Roma home page.

That's
http://www.novaroma.org/main.html
so there's no excuses ;o)

The figure I've seen most often is $US 12.00, and I challenge all
citizens to show thier support for the proposal to institute taxes by
donating at least $US 12.00 to Nova Roma.

Valete,
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re-intro
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 05:13:06 -0700

Salve Luci Mari!

Gratias multas for the re-introduction and for
wandering back from the 'outside' to join
our discussions. Welcome!

Bene vale,
Oppius Flaccus Severus, Legatus America Boreoccidentalis
Sacerdos Neptunus
-----Original Message-----
From: Marius the Wanderer [mailto:peregrinus@--------]
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2893 3:44 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Re-intro

Ex papilio Luci Mari Peregrini omnes NovaRomanis s.p.d.

Salvete omnes...

[looks out upon the many, many new Citizens who have joined NR's ranks
since last he was active]

...I think it's fair to say that most of you don't remember me. >({|:-)

<snipped>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Explorator 3.49
From:	Marcus Papirius Justus <papirius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 08:32:52 -0400

Not really affiliated with Nova Roma, but useful for those who like to keep
up with news developments about the ancient world, is my free weekly
newsletter Explorator ... I've put excerpts onlist here before, but folks
might be interested in seeing what the full issue looks like ... sub info
is at the end:

]|[=================================================================]|[

EXPLORATOR
Watching the Web for News of the Ancient World
Volume 3, Issue 49 -- April 8, 2001

]|[=================================================================]|[

Editor's note: Depending on your mail software, some urls may wrap
(especially those from the Telegraph) which will require you to
rebuild the url at your end; if you get a 'file not found', check to see if
the url wrapped on you. Most urls should be active for at least eight hours
from the time of 'publicatio'.

]|[=================================================================]|[

Thanks to Ardle McMahon and Bill Kennedy for heads upses this week
(a.a.h.i.h.l.n.o.)

OLD WORLD NEWS

The Scotsman reports on the discovery of a prehistoric community in East
Lothian:

http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/index.cfm?id=61204&keyword=the

The Telegraph has a piece on a discovery in Kuwait which suggests the
possibility of ocean-going boats 7,000 years b.p.:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=003100565149417&rtmo=3SAK3HBM&atmo=99999999&pg=/et/01/4/5/ecnkuw05.html

CNet has a brief item on technology being used to help enhance ancient
Sumerian tablets:

http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1006-200-5510067.html?tag=ch_mh

USA Today is reprising a brief article from Egypt Revealed on what might be
a pyramid older than Djoser's:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/science/archaeology/2001-04-07-oldest-stone.htm

The mummy of a wife of a pharaoh has been found in the Bahariyah Oasis:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/553701.asp
http://news.excite.com/news/r/010403/07/odd-mummy-dc

Also on the mummy front, Egypt is apparently encouraging the adoption of
animal mummies:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1254000/1254835.stm
http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=64221

The Egyptian State Information Service has a feature (it seems) on the
anniversary of the foundation of Alexandria:

http://www.uk.sis.gov.eg/calendar/html/cl070497.htm

The Toledo Blade has an item on Egyptian fashion:

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artikkel?Avis=TO&Dato=20010401&Kategori=ART04&Lopenr=104010006&Ref=AR

A BBC investigation suggests plenty of artifacts from Jordan are being
smuggled into Britain:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1263000/1263662.stm

The Telegraph reports that there is a crackdown on Etruscan tomb raiders:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=003100565149417&rtmo=3SAK3HBM&atmo=99999999&pg=/et/01/4/8/wtomb08.html

The Times has a piece on the discovery of Britain's "other Boadicea" (so
does the Telegraph ... and Independent ... and Guardian):

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-110997,00.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=003100565149417&rtmo=wefowfMb&atmo=99999999&pg=/et/01/4/7/ncelt07.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=65346
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4166971,00.html

The Telegraph reports on plans to excavate Nero's Golden Palace:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=003100565149417&rtmo=3SAK3HBM&atmo=99999999&pg=/et/01/4/7/wrome07.html

ABCNews has a feature on the Vikings' genetic legacy:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/Vikings010403.html

The Independent also has a feature on genetic evidence for population
migration (especially by women):

http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=64463

Excavations at Dadapur (India) are pushing dates back for the city's
foundation to 1430 B.C./B.C.E:

http://www.timesofindia.com/040401/04mlkn15.htm

NEW WORLD NEWS

The Waco Tribune-Herald reports on the pre-Clovis Bell County excavation:

http://www.accesswaco.com/auto/feed/news/local/2001/04/07/986672016.18707.0540.0439.html

The Arizona Republic has a feature on some recently-discovered Hohokam dog
figurines:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/0402hohokam02.html

Graves from Jamestown are in the news:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/417273.asp
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/metro/va/A46508-2001Apr5.html
http://www.charlotte.com/observer/natwor/docs/jamestown0407.htm
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/04/0406_jamestown.html

MSNBC has a feature on the new technology being used to salvage shipwrecks:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/552502.asp?cp1=1

ON THE NEWSSTANDS

Archaeology Magazine has an online news feature on the recently-excavated
Buddhist temple at Deorkothar:

http://www.archaeology.org/online/news/deorkothar/index.html

... and obsidian mirrors:

http://www.archaeology.org/online/news/mirrors.html

Discovering Archaeology has some new content on toolmaking in ancient India:

http://www.discoveringarchaeology.com/articles/040601-toolmakersofindia.shtml

Egypt Revealed has a nice feature on Giovanni Belzoni:

http://www.egyptrevealed.com/040101-belzoni.htm

... and something called "Digital Tutankhamun" which promises to be
interesting:

http://www.egyptrevealed.com/04o501-cartertut.htm

Discover magazine has a nice feature on Incan textiles:

http://www.discover.com/apr_01/featalpaca.html

CLASSICIST'S CORNER

The Prince of Wales is being asked to intervene in plans to build a new
structure to house the Ara Pacis:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=003100565149417&rtmo=Lx3tLLtd&atmo=99999999&pg=/et/01/4/5/wrome05.html

eKathimerini reprised a piece from 1969 this week (as far as I can tell)
which involved a nice interview with Jean-Pierre Vernant and Francois
Frantisi-Ducroix:

http://www.ekathimerini.com/news/content.asp?id=78131

Also in eKat ... Stuart Wheeler has written a letter in defense of keeping
Athens' Saarinen-designed airport terminal:

http://www.ekathimerini.com/news/content.asp?id=77778

Athens' subway apparently won't be completed to the airport in time for the
Olympics because they keep finding artifacts:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1256000/1256380.stm

The headline says it all: "Caesar's Atlantic City Offers a Modern-Day
Bacchanal":

http://www.sltrib.com/04082001/travel/86051.htm

FOLLOWUPS

Bamiyan Buddhas:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=004708943623310&rtmo=LxNSb7dd&atmo=rrrrr%0Drrq&pg=/et/01/4/1/wbud01.html
http://www.timesofindia.com/040401/04nbrs9.htm
http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=64432
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1256000/1256394.stm

Cleopatra's 'beauty':

http://www.arabia.com/article/0,1690,Life|43472,00.html

Herculaneum Papyri:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/010409/scrolls.htm

The Hunley:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/03/0328_hunleyupdate.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47016-2001Apr5.html
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/04/05/hunley.ap/index.html

Marathon rowing row:

http://athensnews.dolnet.gr/athweb/nathens.print_unique?e=C&f=12904&m=A05&aa=2&eidos=S
http://athensnews.dolnet.gr/athweb/nathens.print_unique?e=C&f=12904&m=A05&aa=1&eidos=S

The Real Jesus (possibly offensive):

http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=65538

REGULAR FEATURES

CTCWeb's Words of the Week
http://ablemedia.com/ctcweb/myword.html
<url:http://ablemedia.com/ctcweb/myword.html>

Radio Finland's Nuntii Latini
http://www.yle.fi/fbc/latini/trans.html
<url:http://www.yle.fi/fbc/latini/trans.html>

English translation (probably delayed ... hasn't been updated since August):
http://www.cbc4kids.ca/general/whats-new/latin-news/mainlatin.html
<url:http://www.cbc4kids.ca/general/whats-new/latin-news/mainlatin.htm
l>

EXPLORATOR IS ARCHIVED AT:
http://www.onelist.com/archive/Explorator
<url:http://www.onelist.com/archive/Explorator>

]|[================================================================]|[
EXPLORATOR is a weekly newsletter representing the fruits of the labours of
'media research division' of The Atrium. Various on-line news and magazine
sources are scoured on a daily basis for news of the ancient world (broadly
construed: practically anything relating to archaeology or history prior
to about 1700 or so is fair game) and when a sufficient number of urls are
gathered (usually a minimum of three stories), they are delivered to your
mailbox free of charge! Those articles that don't expire, plus
supplementary links eventually find a home at:

The Media Archive (just going up):

http://atrium-media.com/mediaarchive.html

]|[================================================================]|[

Explorator is Copyright (c) 2001 David Meadows; Feel free to
distribute these listings via email to your pals, students, teachers,
etc., but please include this copyright notice. These listings are not to
be posted to a website; instead, please provide a link to either
Commentarium or Rostra (or both)! You can subscribe to or unsubscribe from
this list by going to the following web page:
http://www.egroups.com/subscribe.cgi/Explorator

Or, send by sending a blank email message to:
mailto:Explorator-subscribe@--------

or
mailto:Explorator-unsubscribe@--------

]|[=================================================================]|[

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] The Ancient World on Television (April, 2001)
From:	Marcus Papirius Justus <papirius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 08:33:53 -0400

Folks might also be interested in subscribing to my monthly Ancient World
on Television listings ... again, sub info is at the end:

]|[======================================]|[
]|[
]|[ The Ancient World on Television
]|[ (North America)
]|[ Compiled by David Meadows
]|[ April, 2001
]|[
]|[======================================]|[

]|[Monday, April 2
7.00 a.m. A&E Classroom: The Rise of Christianity
Part one of a series looking at the evolution of Christianity during the
first millennium. The first episode looks at the church as conceived by Paul.

3.00 p.m. DISCC Science Mysteries: King Arthur
An inscription suggests the historicity of King Arthur ...

]|[Tuesday, April 3
7.00 a.m. A&E Classroom: The Rise of Christianity
The series continues with a look at the period 312 to the 'fall' of Rome.

6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)

9.00 p.m. HISTC Ancient History Tuesdays
Two hours of ancient history-related programming.

]|[Wednesday, April 4
7.00 a.m. A&E Classroom: The Rise of Christianity
Christianity grows and has to deal with the rise of Islam ...

6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)

]|[Thursday, April 5
6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)

10.00 p.m. DISCU Atlantis Found?
I'm not quite sure which one this is (misplaced my notes!), but I'm sure it
will have swell computer recreations etc.

]|[Friday, April 6
7.00 a.m. A&E Classroom: The Rise of Christianity
The series continues with a new series (!) focussing on the second
millennium; this one picks up with the Crusades ...

6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)

]|[Monday, April 9
7.00 a.m. A&E Classroom: The Rise of Christianity
Christianity as a civilizing force ...

6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)

]|[Tuesday, April 10
7.00 a.m. A&E Classroom: The Rise of Christianity
Martin Luther has some suggestions ...

6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)

9.00 p.m. HISTC Ancient History Tuesdays
There should be some ancient programming in this time slot (two hours'
worth, although sometimes it doesn't seem so 'ancient')

]|[Wednesday, April 11
7.00 a.m. A&E Classroom: The Rise of Christianity
The separation of Church and state ...

6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)

9.00 p.m. DISCU Who Was Moses?
All sorts of theories about whether Moses existed or not.

]|[Thursday, April 12
6.30. p.m. HISTC Archaeology

8.00 p.m. DISCU Egypt's City of the Dead
A rescue archaeological dig to preserve the 'City of the Dead' from highway
construction ...

9.00 p.m. DISCC Riddle of the Desert Mummies
Blond mummies from China ... go figure.

9.00 p.m. DISCU Dead Sea Scrolls: Unravelling the Mystery
What new technology can bring to the Dead Sea Scrolls ...

10.00 p.m. DISCU Ancient Puzzles
Assorted ancient mysteries presented with the usual "Gol durn, Ma,howdya
spose they did that" Cletus-like presentation

]|[Friday, April 13
7.00 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)

]|[Saturday, April 14
3.00 p.m. DISCU Ancient Puzzles
Repeat of Thursday's program ...

]|[Sunday, April 15
7.00 p.m. DISCU Mysteries of the Pyramids
"Engineers and astronomers" ... means this is a Bauval program.

]|[Monday, April 16
6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)

]|[Tuesday, April 17
7.00 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)

9.00 p.m. HISTC TBA
There should be some ancient programming in this time slot (two hours)

]|[Wednesday, April 18
6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)

]|[Thursday, April 19
6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)

7.00 p.m. TLC Mazes and Labyrinths: Solving Ancient Puzzles
This one looks new ... labyrinths and mazes through the ages.

8.00 p.m. A&E Biography: Genghis Khan
The "ruthless Mongol conqueror" ...

]|[Friday, April 20
6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)

11.00 p.m. HISTU Ancient Drugs
Mind altering substances and their use throughout the ages.

]|[Monday, April 23
6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)

]|[Tuesday, April 24
6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)

9.00 p.m. HISTC Ancient History Tuesdays (TBA)

10.00 p.m. DISCC Iceman: Mummy from the Stone Age
Oetzi, we hardly knew ye ...

]|[Wednesday, April 25
6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)

]|[Thursday, April 26
6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)

9.00 p.m. TLC Ancient Ancestors
A look at the dig in London where they found that Roman woman in a
sarcophagus etc..

]|[Friday, April 27
6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)

]|[Sunday, April 20
9.00 p.m. TLC Chariots of the Gods -- The Mysteries Continue
TLC's monthly challenge to common sense and sound archaeological
interpretation ...

]|[======================================]|[
Useful info:
These listings on the www:
http://www.atrium-media.com/awotv.html
To subscribe (send a blank message):
mailto:awotv-subscribe@--------
To unsubscribe (send a blank message):
mailto:awotv-unsubscribe@--------

]|[======================================]|[
Copyright (c) 2001 David Meadows. Feel free to distribute these listings
via email to your pals, students, teachers, etc., but please include the
title and this copyright notice. These listings are not to be posted to any
website other than my own. Thanks!
]|[======================================]|[

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Taxes (A Challenge)
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 05:41:34 -0700

Salvete Quiritibus;

Well, I accept your challenge Luci Sicini!
Unfortunately, PayPal is choking on my
address so it will have to be by check.
I'll submit a check for $100 on the morrow.

Viva Roma!

Bene valete,
-Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: lsicinius@-------- [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 5:12 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Taxes (A Challenge)

Salvete Quirites,

After following the threads on Taxes I'm delighted to find so many
Nova Romans support this idea.

To show my support for this idea I have just made a $US 25.00 donation
to Nova Roma by using the PayPal on the Nova Roma home page.

<snipped>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Egroup Challenge
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 07:33:18 -0500

In the "Bootcamp" show, once voted off, you get to take another with you!
Maybe we should do that!! ;-)

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Egroup Challenge

> Salvete Omnes,
> Will the Province with the fewest E-list subscribers be voted out of Nova
> Roma? Will there be an immunity challenge? (I deeply apologize for this
> Survivor moment) :)
>
> Next year in the Forum!
>
> Lucius Mauricius Procopious
> Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
> (This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> procopious@--------
> ICQ# 83516618
> *America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
> http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
> * The Gens Mauricia
> http://www.geocities.com/procopious
>
> "Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
> affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the
reason
> for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
> to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
> decide for himself according to his taste."
> -Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Diana Meridia Aurelia" <diana_h@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 10:10 AM
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: Egroup Challenge
>
>
> > Salve Quinte Sertori et Omnes,
> >
> > All I can say to that is this:
> > here's to Provincia Germania proudly entering the contest with 31
> > members to its provincial Egroup and an overall population of
> > currently 37 (growing every week).
> >
> > Any challengers ????
> >
> > Valete,
> > Diana Meridia Aurelia
> >
> > Moderatrix NRGermania
> > Scriba Praetoria
> > Materfamilias Gentis Meridiae
> >
> >
> > --- In novaroma@--------, "Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@h...>
> > wrote:
> > > 5 Apre 2001
> > >
> > > Salve All
> > >
> > > I recently sent an email to my Provincial egroup proudly
> > proclaiming to them that our Provincial egroup was the largest in all
> > NR! This is no longer the case, the largest Provincial egroup is now
> > the one from America Austroccidentalis with 26 members! WE in Canada
> > Occidentalis have only 23 on our egroup, but we only have a
> > Provincial population of 21 though! I am now challenging these other
> > Provincias, especially those with big Provincial populations, to join
> > their respective Provincial egroups and lets get involved and knock
> > off the current Champs America Austroccidentalis!
> > >
> > > Vale
> > >
> > > Quintus Sertorius
> > >
> > > Queastor
> > > Nova Roma
> > > Propraetor
> > > Canada Occidentalis
> > >
> > > Join the Main List for Nova Roma
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
> > >
> > > Join the egroup for Canada Occidentalis
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NR_CanOcc
> > >
> > > Join the egroup for the Quintus Sertorius of Old Rome
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sertorii
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


Subject:	[novaroma] Appointments in Thule 8th April 2754
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 15:08:54 +0200

Ex Officio Propraetoris Thulae

Edictum Propraetoricium III
about the appointment of an Legatus Regionis Finnicae, (Legate of the
Finnish Region)

It is a great pleasure for me, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, to appoint this
Honorable citizen to an official position within Provincia Thule and the
Cohors Propraetoris (The Propraetorian Staff)! I, as a Nova Roman citizen
within the Provincia Thule, am proud to see the Gravitas and Pietas this
citizen shows!

I. Honorable Caius Curius Saturninus is hereby appointed as Legatus
Regionis Finnicae, (Legate of the Finnish Region).

II. Above appointed official is asked to observe that he is bound by the
"Approved Regula (Charter) for the Administration of Thule" as it will be
published on the 15th of April 2001.

III. As a official in Provincia Thule he is asked to within one week swear
the public oath shown on
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/lex99191002.html, using both their Nova
Roman name and within parenthesis his macroworld (real) name. Observe that
the Oath of must include all appointed positions of each cives. The Oath
must be published on the NovaRomaThule List and the Nova Roma Roma Main
List!

IV. This edictum becomes effective immediately.

Given April 8th, in the year of the consulship of Flavius Vedius Germanicus
and Marcus Cassius Iulianus, 2754 AUC.

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Propraetor Thules

Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Egroup Challenge
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 13:21:30 -0000

Salvete,

The Citizens of America Austrorientalis Provincia
have been left out of this challenge because we don't have an Egroup
mailing list.

Or at least we didn't have one until today. Since our Provincia
dosen't have a Propraetor, I have taken the liberty of starting the
Austrorientalis list at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Austrorientalis

When a Propraetor is named for our Provincia I'll turn the list over
to him/her. Until then we at least have an unoffical list.

Since the list was just started I'm the only member. :o(

I urge all citizens of America Austrorientalis Provincia, and any
others who may be intrested to join the list now, so that when our new
Propraetor takes office he/she will find this resource ready for use.

Valete,
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Ancient World on Television (April, 2001)
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 08:14:45 -0500

Thank you very much for this I will be view many of these shows!

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marcus Papirius Justus" <papirius@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 7:33 AM
Subject: [novaroma] The Ancient World on Television (April, 2001)

> Folks might also be interested in subscribing to my monthly Ancient World
> on Television listings ... again, sub info is at the end:
>
>
> ]|[======================================]|[
> ]|[
> ]|[ The Ancient World on Television
> ]|[ (North America)
> ]|[ Compiled by David Meadows
> ]|[ April, 2001
> ]|[
> ]|[======================================]|[
>
>
> ]|[Monday, April 2
> 7.00 a.m. A&E Classroom: The Rise of Christianity
> Part one of a series looking at the evolution of Christianity during the
> first millennium. The first episode looks at the church as conceived by
Paul.
>
> 3.00 p.m. DISCC Science Mysteries: King Arthur
> An inscription suggests the historicity of King Arthur ...
>
> ]|[Tuesday, April 3
> 7.00 a.m. A&E Classroom: The Rise of Christianity
> The series continues with a look at the period 312 to the 'fall' of Rome.
>
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> 9.00 p.m. HISTC Ancient History Tuesdays
> Two hours of ancient history-related programming.
>
> ]|[Wednesday, April 4
> 7.00 a.m. A&E Classroom: The Rise of Christianity
> Christianity grows and has to deal with the rise of Islam ...
>
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> ]|[Thursday, April 5
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> 10.00 p.m. DISCU Atlantis Found?
> I'm not quite sure which one this is (misplaced my notes!), but I'm sure
it
> will have swell computer recreations etc.
>
> ]|[Friday, April 6
> 7.00 a.m. A&E Classroom: The Rise of Christianity
> The series continues with a new series (!) focussing on the second
> millennium; this one picks up with the Crusades ...
>
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> ]|[Monday, April 9
> 7.00 a.m. A&E Classroom: The Rise of Christianity
> Christianity as a civilizing force ...
>
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> ]|[Tuesday, April 10
> 7.00 a.m. A&E Classroom: The Rise of Christianity
> Martin Luther has some suggestions ...
>
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> 9.00 p.m. HISTC Ancient History Tuesdays
> There should be some ancient programming in this time slot (two hours'
> worth, although sometimes it doesn't seem so 'ancient')
>
> ]|[Wednesday, April 11
> 7.00 a.m. A&E Classroom: The Rise of Christianity
> The separation of Church and state ...
>
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> 9.00 p.m. DISCU Who Was Moses?
> All sorts of theories about whether Moses existed or not.
>
> ]|[Thursday, April 12
> 6.30. p.m. HISTC Archaeology
>
> 8.00 p.m. DISCU Egypt's City of the Dead
> A rescue archaeological dig to preserve the 'City of the Dead' from
highway
> construction ...
>
> 9.00 p.m. DISCC Riddle of the Desert Mummies
> Blond mummies from China ... go figure.
>
> 9.00 p.m. DISCU Dead Sea Scrolls: Unravelling the Mystery
> What new technology can bring to the Dead Sea Scrolls ...
>
> 10.00 p.m. DISCU Ancient Puzzles
> Assorted ancient mysteries presented with the usual "Gol durn, Ma,howdya
> spose they did that" Cletus-like presentation
>
> ]|[Friday, April 13
> 7.00 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> ]|[Saturday, April 14
> 3.00 p.m. DISCU Ancient Puzzles
> Repeat of Thursday's program ...
>
> ]|[Sunday, April 15
> 7.00 p.m. DISCU Mysteries of the Pyramids
> "Engineers and astronomers" ... means this is a Bauval program.
>
> ]|[Monday, April 16
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> ]|[Tuesday, April 17
> 7.00 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> 9.00 p.m. HISTC TBA
> There should be some ancient programming in this time slot (two hours)
>
> ]|[Wednesday, April 18
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> ]|[Thursday, April 19
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> 7.00 p.m. TLC Mazes and Labyrinths: Solving Ancient Puzzles
> This one looks new ... labyrinths and mazes through the ages.
>
> 8.00 p.m. A&E Biography: Genghis Khan
> The "ruthless Mongol conqueror" ...
>
> ]|[Friday, April 20
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> 11.00 p.m. HISTU Ancient Drugs
> Mind altering substances and their use throughout the ages.
>
> ]|[Monday, April 23
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> ]|[Tuesday, April 24
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> 9.00 p.m. HISTC Ancient History Tuesdays (TBA)
>
> 10.00 p.m. DISCC Iceman: Mummy from the Stone Age
> Oetzi, we hardly knew ye ...
>
> ]|[Wednesday, April 25
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> ]|[Thursday, April 26
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> 9.00 p.m. TLC Ancient Ancestors
> A look at the dig in London where they found that Roman woman in a
> sarcophagus etc..
>
> ]|[Friday, April 27
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> ]|[Sunday, April 20
> 9.00 p.m. TLC Chariots of the Gods -- The Mysteries Continue
> TLC's monthly challenge to common sense and sound archaeological
> interpretation ...
>
> ]|[======================================]|[
> Useful info:
> These listings on the www:
> http://www.atrium-media.com/awotv.html
> To subscribe (send a blank message):
> mailto:awotv-subscribe@--------
> To unsubscribe (send a blank message):
> mailto:awotv-unsubscribe@--------
>
> ]|[======================================]|[
> Copyright (c) 2001 David Meadows. Feel free to distribute these listings
> via email to your pals, students, teachers, etc., but please include the
> title and this copyright notice. These listings are not to be posted to
any
> website other than my own. Thanks!
> ]|[======================================]|[
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes (A Challenge)
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 08:16:55 -0500

I too, will donate 20$ Canadian. Once I get the wife to say OK!! Remember,
"A generals wife is a generals general!"

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: <lsicinius@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 7:11 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Taxes (A Challenge)

> Salvete Quirites,
>
> After following the threads on Taxes I'm delighted to find so many
> Nova Romans support this idea.
>
> To show my support for this idea I have just made a $US 25.00 donation
> to Nova Roma by using the PayPal on the Nova Roma home page.
>
> That's
> http://www.novaroma.org/main.html
> so there's no excuses ;o)
>
> The figure I've seen most often is $US 12.00, and I challenge all
> citizens to show thier support for the proposal to institute taxes by
> donating at least $US 12.00 to Nova Roma.
>
> Valete,
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Quirites Magna Laci!
From:	Piparskeggr Ullarsson <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 08:34:15 -0500

Avete Omnes,

This is primarily a plea to the Cives living in the US states of Wisconsin, Illinois and Indiana to
contact me offlist.

Also, could all Cives living in the Great Lakes Province join the Great Lakes mailing list, please?

If Nova Roma as a whole is going to not just survive and swell in membership, we need to organize
and actually grow.

--
===========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis, Benedicte Omnes!
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Cives, Paterfamilias Gens Ulleria
Quæstor, Legate, Dominus Sodalis
My homestead
http://www.geocities.com/piparskegg/index.html
Provincia Magna Laci
http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/GreatLakesNovaRoma

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Egroup Challenge
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 08:18:00 -0500

That's the spirit!

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: <lsicinius@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 8:21 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Egroup Challenge

> Salvete,
>
> The Citizens of America Austrorientalis Provincia
> have been left out of this challenge because we don't have an Egroup
> mailing list.
>
> Or at least we didn't have one until today. Since our Provincia
> dosen't have a Propraetor, I have taken the liberty of starting the
> Austrorientalis list at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Austrorientalis
>
> When a Propraetor is named for our Provincia I'll turn the list over
> to him/her. Until then we at least have an unoffical list.
>
> Since the list was just started I'm the only member. :o(
>
> I urge all citizens of America Austrorientalis Provincia, and any
> others who may be intrested to join the list now, so that when our new
> Propraetor takes office he/she will find this resource ready for use.
>
> Valete,
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	R: [novaroma] Latin Translation
From:	"Prometheus" <fresco@-------->
Date:	Fri, 6 Apr 2001 09:44:32 +0300

-----Messaggio Originale-----
Da: Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
A: <novaroma@-------->
Data invio: Saturday, 07 April, 2001 5:44 AM
Oggetto: Re: [novaroma] Latin Translation

>
> --- Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
> escribió: > Can anyone help me with a Latin
> translation - I
> > cannot find a word for Urine
> > - which I need for a play I am writing - a comedy in
> > fact - greatly
> > appreciated...
> >
> > Marcus Sentius Claudius
> >
>
> I¡d think that "urina, urinae" (first declination)
> should be correct. I'm no expert, though.

I am an expert, I urinate daily!
So, I confirm,
It is correct!
I urinate as Urina Urinae f., 1st declinataion
Blessings
Pipinus Urea

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Patroni et clientes -Another perspective
From:	loos@--------
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 14:45:36 -0000

Salve,

It seems I have big e-mail problems with this list (in fact all yahoo
lists) and I receive only 1/4 of the mails. Thats why I answer so
lately to this post (on the web-site)

--- In novaroma@--------, "Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
wrote:
> Salvete Quiritibus;
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: loos [mailto:loos]On Behalf Of Michel
> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 3:46 PM
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: Re: Patroni et clientes (was Re: Re:[novaroma] Keeping
citizens
> interested)
>
>
> "S. Apollonius Draco" wrote:
> >
> > Salve Luci Corneli,
> >
> > (snipped)
>
> <snipped further, OFS>
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla originally writes:
> > > try to rectify them as quickly as they are presented to me.
But, I
> > > think a way to overcome part of this is through the
establishment of a
> > > time honored Roman tradition of patron/client relationship. I
am not
> > > saying that we should follow every aspect of what it was like
in
> > > ancient
> > > rome..but more like a tutelage. Where a newer member of Nova
Roma is
> > > taken under the wing of an "old-timer" and is taught what being
in NR
> > > is
> > > about, how the political system works, and why it works that
> > > way....etc. Because, I am of the opinion that once us
old-timers are
> > > no
> > > longer in office it will be held by a newer generation, and I
think it
> > > would be better to give them training on how NR works, and why
NR works
> > > the way it does, than to leave our newer citizens on their own
to drift
> > > and not have the guidance of our learned citizens.
> >
>
> S. Apollonius Draco respondit:
> > While I think this is a good idea on its face, and would work just
fine in
> > an ideal world (as communism would work in an ideal world), I'm
afraid this
> > will inevitably result in mass corruption. Imagine a new citizen
coming
> > under the tutelage of an influential person in NR, and being told
lies, and
> > promised easy promotions if he supports his patron in this and
that - or
> > else, expulsion, because that patron is so influential he could
kill that
> > new citizen's public life. A patron-client-relationship should be
based on
> > trust, and true trust is a very rare thing in this world, and it
is even
> > more rare on the internet.
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus respondit:
> That is exactly how it worked in Old Rome: large scale
> corruption+immense power for the patrons. The worst possible world.
> Seems the big guys which stayed are mostly admirers of all what Old
Rome
> had worst: Worst period (Sulla dictature), worst organisation
> (Patron/Client).
>
> Makes us regret even more the best of us who did leave a month ago.
>
> OFS: respondit:
> Well, here we go again. We have Lucius Cornelius putting forth
> a suggestion on actually utilizing a physical Roman tradition,
> and we have the usual suspects popping out of the woodwork
> to tear it down; with the usual emotive terminology such as 'worst,'
> 'big guys,' 'communism' and the like.

Where did your read communism ? For me big guys = people with
auctoritas, independent of the faction. Worst, well I think everybody
makes sort of a list of people he thinks the best and the worst, it
just happens that the people most highly placed in my personal list
resigned, and those on the lowest steps stayed.

> Why are the ones who left
> the 'best' of us Marce? Just because you agreed with them? Just
because
> their idealized notion of a particular Roma they wanted were
> most closely with your own avowed ideals?

Exactly. best and worst are relative not only one to the other but to
ones point of view. There is no avsolute good or bad, not good and
evil, it is just relative to your own feelings/believes.

> Does this mean that those who do stay and actually work many
> hours a day for the betterment of Nova Roma are 'worse' than those
> who pack up and leave in a fit of rage because they want
> to find their own sandbox instead of playing in ours?
>

Not in respect to this. The worst stayed the best left. I think the
best took a bad decision, the worst took a good decision.
Decapitating one's own faction (roman sense, if you prefer put here
current of thought, sensibility or party) is not a good idea.

> Perhaps we can discuss the original idea further for a few minutes.
> Getting
> back to what the original context was, we were discussing
> citizenship
> involvement and having those that have actually been around a while,
> and actually do physical work for Nova Roma sitting around silent
for
> weeks on end while real projects, topics and issues are discussed
and
> then pop up for a minute to sling arrows.
>

Sorry for that, as I sayed I receive a small fraction of the e-mails
form this list.

> There are those of us that are ready
> to back away from any tradition that we don't 'like,' or approve
> of. The fact is, that though there were abuses then, (as there
> are abuses now,) there were positive things that came from such
> relationships as well. How do we think that Roma turned out so
> many able administrators? Was it accidental? No. Roma established
> a tradition and those that *knew* and *accomplished things,* were
> those that taught.
>

Roma did not establish a tradition, a tradition establishes itself.
And that particular tradition was one of those (the one?) which lead
to the end of the republic in tha hands of Sulla (not our Censor, his
historical homonym). Choosing today to institutionalize this tradition
seems at least a bad idea, if we want to model the Roman Republic.
This makes me believe (with the choosen Roman Name) that our censor
(who in my personnal list is not belong the "worst") is an admirer of
Sulla's regime, not of the Roman Republic.

> The teaching was typically done in a client/patron relationship.
> Did this mean that it was blind mutual support all the time? No.
> Though, certainly one could look for (and in some cases find,)
> abuses, it was not always this way. There was tradition, teaching,
> and support.
>

Tradition, teaching, support are great ideals which work fine in small
communities. When a Patron ends up with thousands of clients (1st
century situation) none of this actually is real anymore, what you end
up with is much more like Mob families (the way they are organized,
not the crimes) and the main goal becomes to please/increase the power
of the patron (for the clients), privilege their clients to gain more
(for the patrons) instead of working for the commonwealth.

> It depends on what one's goals are. If one seeks politics, one
> should learn from those who are master politicians. If one seeks
> learning in the arts and sciences, then one goes to study under
> a great artist. In short, one could think of 'clientage' as
> 'tutelage,' or journeymanship. It is in this context that the
> issue should be addressed. Roma Mater was not perfect, and
> NR is not perfect either. The further we continually run away
> from our spiritual heritage, the worst off we'll be.
>

Our "Spiritual heritage" is over 2 millenary long (8th century BC,
15th AD) and it changed a lot in this time. Since we predetermined
that only non-monotheistic Rome was our model this time-span is a
little reduced but there are still overwhelming differences between
Romulus, Brutus (the father of the republic), the Fabii, the Scipii,
the Grachii Sulla and Julian the Restorer. If Sulla is your model, I
understand that you want to institutionalize patronage. If the Fabii,
Scipii are your models you don t need Clientelism.

> I for one, ask that we work a little less hard on sanitizing
> Roma, and more towards looking at our ancient traditions
> that can be beneficial when used properly. The notion of
> 'patronage' used in movies like the "Godfather" are only a
> negative portrayal of the worst aspects. Part of our stated
> object as a micronation is to take the 'best of Roma.'
> To me, this can also mean taking the best from many if not
> *all* of our great traditions.
>

The mafia patronage is patronage and its the direct descendant of
Roman patronage, eventually (2 millenaries in this case) it will end
up like that.

> In closing, I think that though the suggestions put forth by
> Tribune Labienus are also very good ones -scriba positions
> are typically very limited in number. I agree that these
> positions are helpful, but given the nature of things in NR,
> they do not always afford much direct
> opportunity to learn directly from those most worthy of learning
> from. It is not, however a requirement of patron-client
> that it be in any way an 'unequal' transaction. It cannot
> be only mutually beneficial, but the patron learns much
> from the client as well.
>

Is there any legal interdiction to do this right now ? It does not
seem so to me. What seems bad is to instutionalize it, to make it
mandatory.

> Let's look at the benefits and consider the possibilities
> of establishing Roma's next generation of leaders.
>

The first effect of this proposition would be to strengthen the
position of the current leaders, all from the same faction. And in a
first time, even if ideally applied it will delay the possible new
leaders.

Manius Villius Limitanus

> Bene valete,
> Oppius Flaccus Severus, Legatus America Boreoccidentalis Major
> Sacerdos Neptunus
>
>
>
>
> <snipped>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Patroni et clientes -Another perspective
From:	loos@--------
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 14:49:38 -0000


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Patroni et clientes -Another perspective
From:	loos@--------
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 14:50:54 -0000


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Patroni et clientes -Another perspective
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 09:43:52 -0500

What a negative person!!

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: <loos@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 9:50 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Patroni et clientes -Another perspective

> Salve,
>
> It seems I have big e-mail problems with this list (in fact all yahoo
> lists) and I receive only 1/4 of the mails. Thats why I answer so
> lately to this post (on the web-site)
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, "Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
> wrote:
> > Salvete Quiritibus;
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: loos [mailto:loos]On Behalf Of Michel
> > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 3:46 PM
> > To: novaroma@--------
> > Subject: Re: Patroni et clientes (was Re: Re:[novaroma] Keeping
> citizens
> > interested)
> >
> >
> > "S. Apollonius Draco" wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve Luci Corneli,
> > >
> > > (snipped)
> >
> > <snipped further, OFS>
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla originally writes:
> > > > try to rectify them as quickly as they are presented to me.
> But, I
> > > > think a way to overcome part of this is through the
> establishment of a
> > > > time honored Roman tradition of patron/client relationship. I
> am not
> > > > saying that we should follow every aspect of what it was like
> in
> > > > ancient
> > > > rome..but more like a tutelage. Where a newer member of Nova
> Roma is
> > > > taken under the wing of an "old-timer" and is taught what being
> in NR
> > > > is
> > > > about, how the political system works, and why it works that
> > > > way....etc. Because, I am of the opinion that once us
> old-timers are
> > > > no
> > > > longer in office it will be held by a newer generation, and I
> think it
> > > > would be better to give them training on how NR works, and why
> NR works
> > > > the way it does, than to leave our newer citizens on their own
> to drift
> > > > and not have the guidance of our learned citizens.
> > >
> >
> > S. Apollonius Draco respondit:
> > > While I think this is a good idea on its face, and would work just
> fine in
> > > an ideal world (as communism would work in an ideal world), I'm
> afraid this
> > > will inevitably result in mass corruption. Imagine a new citizen
> coming
> > > under the tutelage of an influential person in NR, and being told
> lies, and
> > > promised easy promotions if he supports his patron in this and
> that - or
> > > else, expulsion, because that patron is so influential he could
> kill that
> > > new citizen's public life. A patron-client-relationship should be
> based on
> > > trust, and true trust is a very rare thing in this world, and it
> is even
> > > more rare on the internet.
> >
> > Manius Villius Limitanus respondit:
> > That is exactly how it worked in Old Rome: large scale
> > corruption+immense power for the patrons. The worst possible world.
> > Seems the big guys which stayed are mostly admirers of all what Old
> Rome
> > had worst: Worst period (Sulla dictature), worst organisation
> > (Patron/Client).
> >
> > Makes us regret even more the best of us who did leave a month ago.
> >
> > OFS: respondit:
> > Well, here we go again. We have Lucius Cornelius putting forth
> > a suggestion on actually utilizing a physical Roman tradition,
> > and we have the usual suspects popping out of the woodwork
> > to tear it down; with the usual emotive terminology such as 'worst,'
> > 'big guys,' 'communism' and the like.
>
> Where did your read communism ? For me big guys = people with
> auctoritas, independent of the faction. Worst, well I think everybody
> makes sort of a list of people he thinks the best and the worst, it
> just happens that the people most highly placed in my personal list
> resigned, and those on the lowest steps stayed.
>
> > Why are the ones who left
> > the 'best' of us Marce? Just because you agreed with them? Just
> because
> > their idealized notion of a particular Roma they wanted were
> > most closely with your own avowed ideals?
>
> Exactly. best and worst are relative not only one to the other but to
> ones point of view. There is no avsolute good or bad, not good and
> evil, it is just relative to your own feelings/believes.
>
>
> > Does this mean that those who do stay and actually work many
> > hours a day for the betterment of Nova Roma are 'worse' than those
> > who pack up and leave in a fit of rage because they want
> > to find their own sandbox instead of playing in ours?
> >
>
> Not in respect to this. The worst stayed the best left. I think the
> best took a bad decision, the worst took a good decision.
> Decapitating one's own faction (roman sense, if you prefer put here
> current of thought, sensibility or party) is not a good idea.
>
> > Perhaps we can discuss the original idea further for a few minutes.
> > Getting
> > back to what the original context was, we were discussing
> > citizenship
> > involvement and having those that have actually been around a while,
> > and actually do physical work for Nova Roma sitting around silent
> for
> > weeks on end while real projects, topics and issues are discussed
> and
> > then pop up for a minute to sling arrows.
> >
>
> Sorry for that, as I sayed I receive a small fraction of the e-mails
> form this list.
>
> > There are those of us that are ready
> > to back away from any tradition that we don't 'like,' or approve
> > of. The fact is, that though there were abuses then, (as there
> > are abuses now,) there were positive things that came from such
> > relationships as well. How do we think that Roma turned out so
> > many able administrators? Was it accidental? No. Roma established
> > a tradition and those that *knew* and *accomplished things,* were
> > those that taught.
> >
>
> Roma did not establish a tradition, a tradition establishes itself.
> And that particular tradition was one of those (the one?) which lead
> to the end of the republic in tha hands of Sulla (not our Censor, his
> historical homonym). Choosing today to institutionalize this tradition
> seems at least a bad idea, if we want to model the Roman Republic.
> This makes me believe (with the choosen Roman Name) that our censor
> (who in my personnal list is not belong the "worst") is an admirer of
> Sulla's regime, not of the Roman Republic.
>
> > The teaching was typically done in a client/patron relationship.
> > Did this mean that it was blind mutual support all the time? No.
> > Though, certainly one could look for (and in some cases find,)
> > abuses, it was not always this way. There was tradition, teaching,
> > and support.
> >
>
> Tradition, teaching, support are great ideals which work fine in small
> communities. When a Patron ends up with thousands of clients (1st
> century situation) none of this actually is real anymore, what you end
> up with is much more like Mob families (the way they are organized,
> not the crimes) and the main goal becomes to please/increase the power
> of the patron (for the clients), privilege their clients to gain more
> (for the patrons) instead of working for the commonwealth.
>
> > It depends on what one's goals are. If one seeks politics, one
> > should learn from those who are master politicians. If one seeks
> > learning in the arts and sciences, then one goes to study under
> > a great artist. In short, one could think of 'clientage' as
> > 'tutelage,' or journeymanship. It is in this context that the
> > issue should be addressed. Roma Mater was not perfect, and
> > NR is not perfect either. The further we continually run away
> > from our spiritual heritage, the worst off we'll be.
> >
>
> Our "Spiritual heritage" is over 2 millenary long (8th century BC,
> 15th AD) and it changed a lot in this time. Since we predetermined
> that only non-monotheistic Rome was our model this time-span is a
> little reduced but there are still overwhelming differences between
> Romulus, Brutus (the father of the republic), the Fabii, the Scipii,
> the Grachii Sulla and Julian the Restorer. If Sulla is your model, I
> understand that you want to institutionalize patronage. If the Fabii,
> Scipii are your models you don t need Clientelism.
>
> > I for one, ask that we work a little less hard on sanitizing
> > Roma, and more towards looking at our ancient traditions
> > that can be beneficial when used properly. The notion of
> > 'patronage' used in movies like the "Godfather" are only a
> > negative portrayal of the worst aspects. Part of our stated
> > object as a micronation is to take the 'best of Roma.'
> > To me, this can also mean taking the best from many if not
> > *all* of our great traditions.
> >
>
> The mafia patronage is patronage and its the direct descendant of
> Roman patronage, eventually (2 millenaries in this case) it will end
> up like that.
>
> > In closing, I think that though the suggestions put forth by
> > Tribune Labienus are also very good ones -scriba positions
> > are typically very limited in number. I agree that these
> > positions are helpful, but given the nature of things in NR,
> > they do not always afford much direct
> > opportunity to learn directly from those most worthy of learning
> > from. It is not, however a requirement of patron-client
> > that it be in any way an 'unequal' transaction. It cannot
> > be only mutually beneficial, but the patron learns much
> > from the client as well.
> >
>
> Is there any legal interdiction to do this right now ? It does not
> seem so to me. What seems bad is to instutionalize it, to make it
> mandatory.
>
> > Let's look at the benefits and consider the possibilities
> > of establishing Roma's next generation of leaders.
> >
>
> The first effect of this proposition would be to strengthen the
> position of the current leaders, all from the same faction. And in a
> first time, even if ideally applied it will delay the possible new
> leaders.
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus
>
> > Bene valete,
> > Oppius Flaccus Severus, Legatus America Boreoccidentalis Major
> > Sacerdos Neptunus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <snipped>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Patroni et clientes -Another perspective
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 10:31:03 -0500

I would like to apologize to Manius Villius Limitanus, as when posting to
the list that it is the person's point of view which is believed negative
and not the poster himself. Thank you Pompeia for bringing this to my
notice! And, once again sorry for what I said.

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: <loos@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 9:50 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Patroni et clientes -Another perspective

> Salve,
>
> It seems I have big e-mail problems with this list (in fact all yahoo
> lists) and I receive only 1/4 of the mails. Thats why I answer so
> lately to this post (on the web-site)
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, "Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
> wrote:
> > Salvete Quiritibus;
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: loos [mailto:loos]On Behalf Of Michel
> > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 3:46 PM
> > To: novaroma@--------
> > Subject: Re: Patroni et clientes (was Re: Re:[novaroma] Keeping
> citizens
> > interested)
> >
> >
> > "S. Apollonius Draco" wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve Luci Corneli,
> > >
> > > (snipped)
> >
> > <snipped further, OFS>
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla originally writes:
> > > > try to rectify them as quickly as they are presented to me.
> But, I
> > > > think a way to overcome part of this is through the
> establishment of a
> > > > time honored Roman tradition of patron/client relationship. I
> am not
> > > > saying that we should follow every aspect of what it was like
> in
> > > > ancient
> > > > rome..but more like a tutelage. Where a newer member of Nova
> Roma is
> > > > taken under the wing of an "old-timer" and is taught what being
> in NR
> > > > is
> > > > about, how the political system works, and why it works that
> > > > way....etc. Because, I am of the opinion that once us
> old-timers are
> > > > no
> > > > longer in office it will be held by a newer generation, and I
> think it
> > > > would be better to give them training on how NR works, and why
> NR works
> > > > the way it does, than to leave our newer citizens on their own
> to drift
> > > > and not have the guidance of our learned citizens.
> > >
> >
> > S. Apollonius Draco respondit:
> > > While I think this is a good idea on its face, and would work just
> fine in
> > > an ideal world (as communism would work in an ideal world), I'm
> afraid this
> > > will inevitably result in mass corruption. Imagine a new citizen
> coming
> > > under the tutelage of an influential person in NR, and being told
> lies, and
> > > promised easy promotions if he supports his patron in this and
> that - or
> > > else, expulsion, because that patron is so influential he could
> kill that
> > > new citizen's public life. A patron-client-relationship should be
> based on
> > > trust, and true trust is a very rare thing in this world, and it
> is even
> > > more rare on the internet.
> >
> > Manius Villius Limitanus respondit:
> > That is exactly how it worked in Old Rome: large scale
> > corruption+immense power for the patrons. The worst possible world.
> > Seems the big guys which stayed are mostly admirers of all what Old
> Rome
> > had worst: Worst period (Sulla dictature), worst organisation
> > (Patron/Client).
> >
> > Makes us regret even more the best of us who did leave a month ago.
> >
> > OFS: respondit:
> > Well, here we go again. We have Lucius Cornelius putting forth
> > a suggestion on actually utilizing a physical Roman tradition,
> > and we have the usual suspects popping out of the woodwork
> > to tear it down; with the usual emotive terminology such as 'worst,'
> > 'big guys,' 'communism' and the like.
>
> Where did your read communism ? For me big guys = people with
> auctoritas, independent of the faction. Worst, well I think everybody
> makes sort of a list of people he thinks the best and the worst, it
> just happens that the people most highly placed in my personal list
> resigned, and those on the lowest steps stayed.
>
> > Why are the ones who left
> > the 'best' of us Marce? Just because you agreed with them? Just
> because
> > their idealized notion of a particular Roma they wanted were
> > most closely with your own avowed ideals?
>
> Exactly. best and worst are relative not only one to the other but to
> ones point of view. There is no avsolute good or bad, not good and
> evil, it is just relative to your own feelings/believes.
>
>
> > Does this mean that those who do stay and actually work many
> > hours a day for the betterment of Nova Roma are 'worse' than those
> > who pack up and leave in a fit of rage because they want
> > to find their own sandbox instead of playing in ours?
> >
>
> Not in respect to this. The worst stayed the best left. I think the
> best took a bad decision, the worst took a good decision.
> Decapitating one's own faction (roman sense, if you prefer put here
> current of thought, sensibility or party) is not a good idea.
>
> > Perhaps we can discuss the original idea further for a few minutes.
> > Getting
> > back to what the original context was, we were discussing
> > citizenship
> > involvement and having those that have actually been around a while,
> > and actually do physical work for Nova Roma sitting around silent
> for
> > weeks on end while real projects, topics and issues are discussed
> and
> > then pop up for a minute to sling arrows.
> >
>
> Sorry for that, as I sayed I receive a small fraction of the e-mails
> form this list.
>
> > There are those of us that are ready
> > to back away from any tradition that we don't 'like,' or approve
> > of. The fact is, that though there were abuses then, (as there
> > are abuses now,) there were positive things that came from such
> > relationships as well. How do we think that Roma turned out so
> > many able administrators? Was it accidental? No. Roma established
> > a tradition and those that *knew* and *accomplished things,* were
> > those that taught.
> >
>
> Roma did not establish a tradition, a tradition establishes itself.
> And that particular tradition was one of those (the one?) which lead
> to the end of the republic in tha hands of Sulla (not our Censor, his
> historical homonym). Choosing today to institutionalize this tradition
> seems at least a bad idea, if we want to model the Roman Republic.
> This makes me believe (with the choosen Roman Name) that our censor
> (who in my personnal list is not belong the "worst") is an admirer of
> Sulla's regime, not of the Roman Republic.
>
> > The teaching was typically done in a client/patron relationship.
> > Did this mean that it was blind mutual support all the time? No.
> > Though, certainly one could look for (and in some cases find,)
> > abuses, it was not always this way. There was tradition, teaching,
> > and support.
> >
>
> Tradition, teaching, support are great ideals which work fine in small
> communities. When a Patron ends up with thousands of clients (1st
> century situation) none of this actually is real anymore, what you end
> up with is much more like Mob families (the way they are organized,
> not the crimes) and the main goal becomes to please/increase the power
> of the patron (for the clients), privilege their clients to gain more
> (for the patrons) instead of working for the commonwealth.
>
> > It depends on what one's goals are. If one seeks politics, one
> > should learn from those who are master politicians. If one seeks
> > learning in the arts and sciences, then one goes to study under
> > a great artist. In short, one could think of 'clientage' as
> > 'tutelage,' or journeymanship. It is in this context that the
> > issue should be addressed. Roma Mater was not perfect, and
> > NR is not perfect either. The further we continually run away
> > from our spiritual heritage, the worst off we'll be.
> >
>
> Our "Spiritual heritage" is over 2 millenary long (8th century BC,
> 15th AD) and it changed a lot in this time. Since we predetermined
> that only non-monotheistic Rome was our model this time-span is a
> little reduced but there are still overwhelming differences between
> Romulus, Brutus (the father of the republic), the Fabii, the Scipii,
> the Grachii Sulla and Julian the Restorer. If Sulla is your model, I
> understand that you want to institutionalize patronage. If the Fabii,
> Scipii are your models you don t need Clientelism.
>
> > I for one, ask that we work a little less hard on sanitizing
> > Roma, and more towards looking at our ancient traditions
> > that can be beneficial when used properly. The notion of
> > 'patronage' used in movies like the "Godfather" are only a
> > negative portrayal of the worst aspects. Part of our stated
> > object as a micronation is to take the 'best of Roma.'
> > To me, this can also mean taking the best from many if not
> > *all* of our great traditions.
> >
>
> The mafia patronage is patronage and its the direct descendant of
> Roman patronage, eventually (2 millenaries in this case) it will end
> up like that.
>
> > In closing, I think that though the suggestions put forth by
> > Tribune Labienus are also very good ones -scriba positions
> > are typically very limited in number. I agree that these
> > positions are helpful, but given the nature of things in NR,
> > they do not always afford much direct
> > opportunity to learn directly from those most worthy of learning
> > from. It is not, however a requirement of patron-client
> > that it be in any way an 'unequal' transaction. It cannot
> > be only mutually beneficial, but the patron learns much
> > from the client as well.
> >
>
> Is there any legal interdiction to do this right now ? It does not
> seem so to me. What seems bad is to instutionalize it, to make it
> mandatory.
>
> > Let's look at the benefits and consider the possibilities
> > of establishing Roma's next generation of leaders.
> >
>
> The first effect of this proposition would be to strengthen the
> position of the current leaders, all from the same faction. And in a
> first time, even if ideally applied it will delay the possible new
> leaders.
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus
>
> > Bene valete,
> > Oppius Flaccus Severus, Legatus America Boreoccidentalis Major
> > Sacerdos Neptunus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <snipped>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] A Conquest!
From:	syphax_venaliccii@--------
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 16:25:21 -0000

Salvete!

I, P. Gramatinicus Albinus, have conquered the Texas State Junior
Classical League tournement just recently! It was held in Denton, TX,
at the University of North Texas. I competed in the folling
catagories, followed by my placement.

Roman Life Level IV, 4th place
Greek Life and Literature Level IV, 5th place
Open Certamen (buzzer game), 1st place
Boy's Costume, 10th place (pictures soon!)
Pentathalon Level IV, Magna Cum Laude

Placing 5th or better qualifies to to attend the National Junior
Classical League's Convention, held this year at Tulane University in
New Orleans. Wish me luck for Nationals!

*On a smaller note, I have written an essay on the Cursus Honorum,
and any who would like to read it, just send me an email expressing
your wish.*

P. Gramatinicus Albinus

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A Conquest!
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 12:39:45 -0400

Salve: Congatulations on you great accomplishment. This is indeed something
to celebrate. I wish you all the best at the National Junior Classical
League's Convention. And I would enjoy reading you essay if you wish to send
it.
Ave atque vale, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, ... Rogator
----- Original Message -----
From: <syphax_venaliccii@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 12:25 PM
Subject: [novaroma] A Conquest!

> Salvete!
>
> I, P. Gramatinicus Albinus, have conquered the Texas State Junior
> Classical League tournement just recently! It was held in Denton, TX,
> at the University of North Texas. I competed in the folling
> catagories, followed by my placement.
>
> Roman Life Level IV, 4th place
> Greek Life and Literature Level IV, 5th place
> Open Certamen (buzzer game), 1st place
> Boy's Costume, 10th place (pictures soon!)
> Pentathalon Level IV, Magna Cum Laude
>
> Placing 5th or better qualifies to to attend the National Junior
> Classical League's Convention, held this year at Tulane University in
> New Orleans. Wish me luck for Nationals!
>
> *On a smaller note, I have written an essay on the Cursus Honorum,
> and any who would like to read it, just send me an email expressing
> your wish.*
>
> P. Gramatinicus Albinus
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Invalid Voter Codes
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 12:44:45 -0400

Salvete Omnes: The following Tracking Numbers represent invalid Voter Codes. The citizens who have these Tracking Numbers are asked to double check their Voter Code and try to vote again. If you encounter further problems, please contact the Censores or Rogatores. Tracking Numbers - # 5085, # 5088
Vale, .... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
Rogator

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Clientelism and Gens Recruiting
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 12:55:44 EDT

<<I wasn't advocating some sort of protection programme for newbies. You're
right that everyone is his own man (or woman) and has the right to freely
choose his or her own loyalties in life.>>

I am glad this was not your intention.

<<It's halfway down loyalty and friendship, and I'd prefer the latter if it
were up to me, but if you're stuck with a patronus who appears to be not your
friend later on, then what to do? You seek another patronus, angering your
former one who has the power
to destroy your public reputation.>>

Friendships can and do end often with the same result.

<<Instituting clientelism, that is a regulation of social life! >>

All relationships have a kind of order or regulation to them. The thing is,
it is a regulation freely entered into by the parties concerned. Allowing
clientelism to go on is not insituting it. No one is forced to take part. I
choose to be no one's client, nor a patron, even if I had some kind of power.

<<For the record: I'm not against convincing people
to join your gens, and I have no idea who that other person was. But it
depends on the situation, of course: I wouldn't do this with a prospective
citizen who is merely asking me information about citizenship. I might
suggest it, but I'd never try to "win him over".>>

I wish I had remembered the participants. It did not seem a very important
matter at the time. But as long as all agree that gens recruiting is up to
the paters and maters of the gens, all is well.

Nerva

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Invalid Voter Codes
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 13:04:29 -0400

Salve: One more Invalid Voter Code. Tracking Number # 5087. Pleas refer to below note.
Vale, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, Rogator
----- Original Message -----
From: A. Cato
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 12:44 PM
Subject: Invalid Voter Codes

Salvete Omnes: The following Tracking Numbers represent invalid Voter Codes. The citizens who have these Tracking Numbers are asked to double check their Voter Code and try to vote again. If you encounter further problems, please contact the Censores or Rogatores. Tracking Numbers - # 5085, # 5088
Vale, .... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
Rogator

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Patroni et clientes -Another perspective
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 10:38:28 -0700

Salve Mani Villi;

I've come to a point where it seems that I've said
all there can be said from my perspective. Since you
have been kind enough to clarify a few of your
thoughts below from the original post, I'll respond
in kind to a few of them. However, this shall be my
last post on this particular thread.
-----Original Message-----
From: loos@-------- [mailto:loos@--------]
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 7:46 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Patroni et clientes -Another perspective

Mani Villi writes:

Salve,

It seems I have big e-mail problems with this list (in fact all yahoo
lists) and I receive only 1/4 of the mails. Thats why I answer so
lately to this post (on the web-site)

OFS: That is indeed frustrating. One possible suggestion
might be to get an e-mail account on Yahoo itself to use
for Nova Roman business. It seems to work pretty well for
me and at least in my case, have found the messages to
be pretty quick in delivery. Of course there's always
the 'archive' option, but that isn't necessarily an option
I'd suggest for anyone to use on a daily basis.

With Yahoo, you can select a 'POP' mail delivery option,
and have mail in the account delivered directly to a
POP-capable mail client such as Netscape, Eudora or
Microsoft Outlook/Outlook Express. (There are dozens
of these, am just naming some of the more widely-used
variations.) My Yahoo POP mail works really well and
I haven't missed anything. -Just a suggestion.

--- In novaroma@--------, "Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
<snipped>

Mani Villi writes:
Where did your read communism ?

OFS: This was a word used as a 'comparative' by S.
Apolloni Draco. My response was a 'compendium' post
intended to answer yourself, Draco et Tribune Labiene.
I agree though that you yourself did not use the
word and for any misconstruance this may have caused,
my apologies.

Mani Villi writes:
For me big guys = people with
auctoritas, independent of the faction. Worst, well I think everybody
makes sort of a list of people he thinks the best and the worst, it
just happens that the people most highly placed in my personal list
resigned, and those on the lowest steps stayed.

OFS: Ok, I can fully agree that as individuals we probably
all have our own lists of one form or another. I have to concur with
Quinte Sertori though that is pointlessly negative to 'share'
one's personal list with the public. It just fosters further
negativism and was unnecessary, especially in the light of
a legitimate non-personal post such as the one which initially
started the "Patroni et Clientes" thread.

Since we all seem to enjoy discussing how things really were in
Antiqua, 'Auctoritas' was something that was earned, not blindly
given. Auctoritas is one of those words like many used here that
do not translate well to English, but it means far more than
'authority.'

<snipped>

Mani Villi writes:
Exactly. best and worst are relative not only one to the other but to
ones point of view. There is no avsolute good or bad, not good and
evil, it is just relative to your own feelings/believes.

OFS: On this I agree; as I stated in an early response to
Draco this morning.

<snipped>

Mani Villi writes:
Not in respect to this. The worst stayed the best left. I think the
best took a bad decision, the worst took a good decision.
Decapitating one's own faction (roman sense, if you prefer put here
current of thought, sensibility or party) is not a good idea.

OFS: So you are then applying the comparative 'best and worst'
to the faction from which some departed and not to the whole
of NR? If this is the case, then I humbly apologize for misinterpreting
your post. However, it did not come across this way. It
came across as "those that left=good, those that stayed, all those
in NR with which I disagree=bad" in the context applying to NR as a whole.

<snipped>

Mani Villi
Sorry for that, as I sayed I receive a small fraction of the e-mails
form this list.

OFS: Please see my mail suggestions above.

<snipped>

Mani Villi writes:
Roma did not establish a tradition, a tradition establishes itself.
And that particular tradition was one of those (the one?) which lead
to the end of the republic in tha hands of Sulla (not our Censor, his
historical homonym).

OFS: Actually, this could be argued *entirely* differently.
Client/Patron existed hundreds of years before Sulla the Dictator.
It continued to exist hundreds of years after as well. One cannot
summarize the complex political situation that occurred in
Sulla's time by writing it off to client/patron. I'm not *even*
going to go down the road of 'what really ended the Respublica,'
as it is way beyond the context of the current discussion.

(Though such a discussion would indeed be exciting and interesting,
it belongs in another context.)

Mani Villi writes:
Choosing today to institutionalize this tradition
seems at least a bad idea, if we want to model the Roman Republic.

OFS: Indeed, an 'institutionalized' tradition in its
purest form as originally practiced, may be argued to
have potential negative effects. As I addressed to Draco,
I can see *how* this could happen in certain circumstances,
but I disagree that it *will* happen in all circumstances;
especially when tightly defined by both parties involved.

On the other hand, having an 'institutionalized' practice
(and no, I'm *not* saying that it *should* go this way,
am just using the example to make a point,) has advantages
as well in clarifying general terms of agreement so that
there's less potential for misunderstanding between in-
dividuals entering in to such an arrangement.

Mani Villi writes:
This makes me believe (with the choosen Roman Name) that our censor
(who in my personnal list is not belong the "worst") is an admirer of
Sulla's regime, not of the Roman Republic.

OFS: Well in fairness mi Mani, neither of us can really
have any certainty as to why someone chooses a particular name.
In fairness, I do think it's safe to say that cives such
as L. Cornelius do take extra 'heat' if you will due to
their choice of nomen. Beyond that though, if we want
to 'assume' where someone might be coming from in their
perspective, it's a good idea to ask.

Again, the context of what really 'was' or what
constituted someone's idea of what the 'true' Respublica
was is beyond the context of this discussion.

<snipped>

Mani Villi writes:
Tradition, teaching, support are great ideals which work fine in small
communities.

OFS: This can work in larger communities as well,
but in our instance, we're really talking about
a few hundred at the absolute most that would
even *consider* such an arrangement.

Mani Villi:
When a Patron ends up with thousands of clients (1st
century situation) none of this actually is real anymore, what you end
up with is much more like Mob families (the way they are organized,
not the crimes) and the main goal becomes to please/increase the power
of the patron (for the clients), privilege their clients to gain more
(for the patrons) instead of working for the commonwealth.

OFS: Well, in that context I could almost agree with
you. -Thousands of clients 'obligatorily attached' to
a single patron *could* indeed lead to a power abuse
potential. *Could* being operative. If on the other
hand, such a practice were exercised as suggested by
Consul Germanice, then everyone would know who was who,
where support lines were, who supported what issues
and the like. This would be one of the potential benefits
of 'institutionalizing it' as opposed to 'closetizing
it.'

<snipped>

Mani Villi writes:
Our "Spiritual heritage" is over 2 millenary long (8th century BC,
15th AD) and it changed a lot in this time. Since we predetermined
that only non-monotheistic Rome was our model this time-span is a
little reduced

OFS: Actually, *significantly reduced if we take it no
further back than the 4th century CE. However, I'm sure as
you say many of these practices existed until the
15th century CE as well.

Mani Villi writes:
but there are still overwhelming differences between
Romulus, Brutus (the father of the republic), the Fabii, the Scipii,
the Grachii Sulla and Julian the Restorer. If Sulla is your model, I
understand that you want to institutionalize patronage. If the Fabii,
Scipii are your models you don t need Clientelism.

OFS: Are you saying that *none* of these great
men had clients???? It sounds like that's what
your saying, and am not at all sure where you would
come up with such a reference. Perhaps though, you
are talking about a different type of practice.
Yes -it is true that clientage *could* be used as
a tool for manipulating political support in antiqua,
but this was just *one* small facet of it and except
in a few extreme cases, was not in and of itself
the harbinger of Respublican destruction. Others
on this list have spoken eloquently as to the
the practices in detail, so I will refer you back
to those posts.

<snipped>

Mani Villi writes:
The mafia patronage is patronage and its the direct descendant of
Roman patronage, eventually (2 millenaries in this case) it will end
up like that.

OFS: How so?

<snipped>

Mani Villi writes:
Is there any legal interdiction to do this right now ? It does not
seem so to me. What seems bad is to instutionalize it, to make it
mandatory.

OFS: Addressed elsewhere in this post. I'll simply
say again that it is *not* mandatory and have seen
no suggestion anywhere that it be so, or *ever* be
so.

<snipped>

Mani Villi writes:
The first effect of this proposition would be to strengthen the
position of the current leaders, all from the same faction.

OFS: What faction would that be exactly? The
faction of "people I don't agree with?" The only
'faction,' that I know of is the current leadership
and Senatores, which is largely composed of extremely
knowledgeable, long-term cives and founders of Roma.
How could one possibly strengthen the position of people
occupying the highest offices in our nation?

Mani Villi writes:
And in a
first time, even if ideally applied it will delay the possible new
leaders.

OFS: I respect this as an 'assumption or opinion,' but
not as fact. The point of this exercise is to *promote*
the new generation of leaders, not perpetuate the current
ones ad nauseaum. In the context of the discussion, the
'old timers' if you will entering in to such an arrangement
would be doing so to promote growth, stability and the
new generation of success; on which to build on the
current successes as perpetuated by our current great
leaders.

Bene vale,
Oppius

<snipped>


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] A Conquest!
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 11:06:36 -0700

Salve P. Gramatinice!

Hearty congratulations to you from Gens Flacca!
A truly impressive accomplishment indeed and
furthers the esteem of our great Respublica
by having such excellence in our midst.
Great job!!!

Bene vale,
Oppius Flaccus Severus
-----Original Message-----
From: syphax_venaliccii@-------- [mailto:syphax_venaliccii@--------]
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 9:25 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] A Conquest!

Salvete!

I, P. Gramatinicus Albinus, have conquered the Texas State Junior
Classical League tournement just recently! It was held in Denton, TX,
at the University of North Texas. I competed in the folling
catagories, followed by my placement.

<snipped>

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] The Ancient World on Television (April, 2001)
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 11:12:35 -0700

Salve Marce Papiri!

Gratias multas for sharing the television listings
and the latest issue of your newsletter. I have just
subscribed to same and will look forward to the
future editions.

As to the television listings, this is *extremely*
helpful, especially to those of us who are always
wondering how we can make full use of cable. Seems I'm
always finding out about these shows *after* they run.
Nice to find out before hand so I don't have to
keep missing them.

Bene vale,
-Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: Marcus Papirius Justus [mailto:papirius@--------]
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 5:34 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] The Ancient World on Television (April, 2001)

Folks might also be interested in subscribing to my monthly Ancient World
on Television listings ... again, sub info is at the end:

<snipped>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Results of vote in Comitia Populi
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 20:23:47 +0200

>Flavius Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.
>
>The results of the recent election in the Comitia Populi Tributa have been
>reported, and are as follow:
>
>In the election for the post of rogator, 3 tribes voted for Franciscus
>Apulus Caesar, 10 tribes voted for Domna Claudia Auspicata, 8 tribes voted
>for Titus Curius Dannicus, 10 tribes tied, 2 tribes abstained, and 2 tribes
>failed to vote. Domna Claudia Auspicata wins the position.
>
>In the vote on the Lex Vedia de Ratione Comitiorum Populi Tributorum, 31
>tribes voted in favor, 1 tribe voted against, 1 tribe abstained, and 2
>tribes failed to vote. The lex is passed.
>
>In the vote on the Lex Labienia de Edictium Vigintisexviris, 30 tribes voted
>in favor, 0 tribes voted against, 2 tribes tied, 1 tribe abstained, and 2
>tribes failed to vote. The lex is passed.
>
>My thanks to all who voted, congratulations to Domna Claudia, and
>condolences to Franciscus Apulus and Titus Curius.
>
>Valete,
>
>Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
>Consul

Salve Honorable Legatus Titus Curius Dannicus, Honorable Franciscus Apulus
and Honorable Domna Claudia Auspicata!

I congratulate You Honorable Domna Claudia Auspicata to your position as
Rogatrix! To You Honorable Legatus Titus Curius Dannicus and Honorable
Franciscus Apulus I say; don't give up, at last it will be your day!

Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
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Subject:	[novaroma] Busy, not gone!
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 20:19:08 +0200

Salvete Omnes!

I have to mail You all to explain why I not participating in all
discussions, not even answering when I am personally addressed. Since my
appointment to Propraetor of Thule I have been extremly busy. I have been
working with Provincia Thule 8 -16 hours á day. I have put together the
Report, the Regula and the Plan. I have contacted civi within Thule to get
their assistants in my Cohors Propraetoris (Propraetorian Staff). I have
kept my other Nova Roman personal correspondance going. I have been working
with the Agenda for our first Consilium plenum. The Agenda now contains 10
issues and the Plena will take place the 16th to the 29th April. The
preparations of the agenda have taken a lot of time although I will ask the
members of the Consilium to prepare reports on some issues each!

The bottom line is that I am busy, not gone or disappeared! ;-) I have not
lost intrest in Nova Roma, rather the opposite. Maybe it is the fact that I
am aiming for a flying start? I aim for the Stars and hope to achive the
treetops!

So I ask for understanding, I hope to come back to the main list's
discussions, but it may not happen tomorrow?

Ad Astra!

Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Ancient World on Television (April, 2001)
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 14:28:11 -0400

Salve Marce Papiri: Thankyou very much for posting this list. I have sent
in my subscription and will be looking forward to many of these programs.
Vale, .... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, ... Rogator
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marcus Papirius Justus" <papirius@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 8:33 AM
Subject: [novaroma] The Ancient World on Television (April, 2001)

> Folks might also be interested in subscribing to my monthly Ancient World
> on Television listings ... again, sub info is at the end:
>
>
> ]|[======================================]|[
> ]|[
> ]|[ The Ancient World on Television
> ]|[ (North America)
> ]|[ Compiled by David Meadows
> ]|[ April, 2001
> ]|[
> ]|[======================================]|[
>
>
> ]|[Monday, April 2
> 7.00 a.m. A&E Classroom: The Rise of Christianity
> Part one of a series looking at the evolution of Christianity during the
> first millennium. The first episode looks at the church as conceived by
Paul.
>
> 3.00 p.m. DISCC Science Mysteries: King Arthur
> An inscription suggests the historicity of King Arthur ...
>
> ]|[Tuesday, April 3
> 7.00 a.m. A&E Classroom: The Rise of Christianity
> The series continues with a look at the period 312 to the 'fall' of Rome.
>
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> 9.00 p.m. HISTC Ancient History Tuesdays
> Two hours of ancient history-related programming.
>
> ]|[Wednesday, April 4
> 7.00 a.m. A&E Classroom: The Rise of Christianity
> Christianity grows and has to deal with the rise of Islam ...
>
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> ]|[Thursday, April 5
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> 10.00 p.m. DISCU Atlantis Found?
> I'm not quite sure which one this is (misplaced my notes!), but I'm sure
it
> will have swell computer recreations etc.
>
> ]|[Friday, April 6
> 7.00 a.m. A&E Classroom: The Rise of Christianity
> The series continues with a new series (!) focussing on the second
> millennium; this one picks up with the Crusades ...
>
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> ]|[Monday, April 9
> 7.00 a.m. A&E Classroom: The Rise of Christianity
> Christianity as a civilizing force ...
>
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> ]|[Tuesday, April 10
> 7.00 a.m. A&E Classroom: The Rise of Christianity
> Martin Luther has some suggestions ...
>
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> 9.00 p.m. HISTC Ancient History Tuesdays
> There should be some ancient programming in this time slot (two hours'
> worth, although sometimes it doesn't seem so 'ancient')
>
> ]|[Wednesday, April 11
> 7.00 a.m. A&E Classroom: The Rise of Christianity
> The separation of Church and state ...
>
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> 9.00 p.m. DISCU Who Was Moses?
> All sorts of theories about whether Moses existed or not.
>
> ]|[Thursday, April 12
> 6.30. p.m. HISTC Archaeology
>
> 8.00 p.m. DISCU Egypt's City of the Dead
> A rescue archaeological dig to preserve the 'City of the Dead' from
highway
> construction ...
>
> 9.00 p.m. DISCC Riddle of the Desert Mummies
> Blond mummies from China ... go figure.
>
> 9.00 p.m. DISCU Dead Sea Scrolls: Unravelling the Mystery
> What new technology can bring to the Dead Sea Scrolls ...
>
> 10.00 p.m. DISCU Ancient Puzzles
> Assorted ancient mysteries presented with the usual "Gol durn, Ma,howdya
> spose they did that" Cletus-like presentation
>
> ]|[Friday, April 13
> 7.00 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> ]|[Saturday, April 14
> 3.00 p.m. DISCU Ancient Puzzles
> Repeat of Thursday's program ...
>
> ]|[Sunday, April 15
> 7.00 p.m. DISCU Mysteries of the Pyramids
> "Engineers and astronomers" ... means this is a Bauval program.
>
> ]|[Monday, April 16
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> ]|[Tuesday, April 17
> 7.00 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> 9.00 p.m. HISTC TBA
> There should be some ancient programming in this time slot (two hours)
>
> ]|[Wednesday, April 18
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> ]|[Thursday, April 19
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> 7.00 p.m. TLC Mazes and Labyrinths: Solving Ancient Puzzles
> This one looks new ... labyrinths and mazes through the ages.
>
> 8.00 p.m. A&E Biography: Genghis Khan
> The "ruthless Mongol conqueror" ...
>
> ]|[Friday, April 20
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> 11.00 p.m. HISTU Ancient Drugs
> Mind altering substances and their use throughout the ages.
>
> ]|[Monday, April 23
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> ]|[Tuesday, April 24
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> 9.00 p.m. HISTC Ancient History Tuesdays (TBA)
>
> 10.00 p.m. DISCC Iceman: Mummy from the Stone Age
> Oetzi, we hardly knew ye ...
>
> ]|[Wednesday, April 25
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> ]|[Thursday, April 26
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> 9.00 p.m. TLC Ancient Ancestors
> A look at the dig in London where they found that Roman woman in a
> sarcophagus etc..
>
> ]|[Friday, April 27
> 6.30 p.m. HISTC Archaeology (TBA)
>
> ]|[Sunday, April 20
> 9.00 p.m. TLC Chariots of the Gods -- The Mysteries Continue
> TLC's monthly challenge to common sense and sound archaeological
> interpretation ...
>
> ]|[======================================]|[
> Useful info:
> These listings on the www:
> http://www.atrium-media.com/awotv.html
> To subscribe (send a blank message):
> mailto:awotv-subscribe@--------
> To unsubscribe (send a blank message):
> mailto:awotv-unsubscribe@--------
>
> ]|[======================================]|[
> Copyright (c) 2001 David Meadows. Feel free to distribute these listings
> via email to your pals, students, teachers, etc., but please include the
> title and this copyright notice. These listings are not to be posted to
any
> website other than my own. Thanks!
> ]|[======================================]|[
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Taxes
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 12:00:45 -0700

Salvete Luci Sicini et omnes;
-----Original Message-----
From: lsicinius@-------- [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 5:52 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Taxes

<snipped>

> ----- Original Message -----
<snipped>
OFS originally wrote:
> > 2-Though I'm admittedly no expert on managing a non-profit
organization,
> > I would think that any organization that tries to micromanage
exchange
> > rates, age-based rates, income-based rates, GDP-based rates and
the like
> > are in for a whole lot of headache.

L. Sicini responds:
No. Setting a rate structure based on GDP is simple.

OFS responds: Another one of those 'relative' terms L. Sicini.
I have looked at your CIA referral site (which is excellent,
by the way,) and trawled for the GDP figures. Having reviewed
the arguments of yourself, Procopi et Germanice; I might be
tempted to agree that at the *provincial* level only, GDP-based
multipliers might be 'reasonably' managed if one chooses
to use the CIA's figures; but others may not.

For instance, we've seen how many times where cives get
very macronationalistic when discussing certain issues.
In considering such an approach, also bear in mind that:

1-The figures are based on CIA generated data. Though the
figures themselves may indeed be highly accurate, I wonder
how closely cives in say places like Libya, Russia or
anywhere else outside of the USA might want their GDP
multipliers to be based on CIA data.

2-The figures I saw on the site (and I fully admit -I did not
search through each and every country on the list, only three,)
were based on year 1998 or year 1999 data. Given inflation
rates, adjusted currency multipliers and other factors, it
is difficult at best to arrive at any absolutes in such
an undertaking. And, people who are being 'taxed,' typically
like to be extremely exacting in having these measures
applied to them.

You as a security expert and programmer, might indeed
find it programmatically simple to set up an agent or
parser to trawl through the countries on the list,
determine an 'appropriate' multiplier and apply it across
the board. Others may take issue with the data, multipliers
used or application of either.

That being said though, at the provincial level there
is most certainly a happy medium though and given the
appropriate fiscal structures between Senate and Propraetor,
such a structure could be established and tuned over
time provided everyone agreed on the 'baseline data.'

And also for the record, I am in no way taking any
exception to the official data on the CIA site. Am
only discussing related issues for the sake of clarification.

L. Sicini writes:
Since the United
States has the highest GDP it would be assigned a value of 1.

OFS: It *could,* yes. But is this something everyone
would want? Who is to say that taking a baseline of
say an EU, African or Middle Eastern country would
not be a better way to go? On who's data would such
figures be based?

Point is, though I'm playing devil's advocate here
for the purposes of discussion and clarification,
I think there are some issues to consider. Again;
I actually mostly agree with some level of economic
multiplier for use at the *provincial level*, but
not at the macronational level. Such complexities
and multipliers should be advanced at the individual
level of province and more succinctly, at the Regio
level; as provinces with multiple states or nations
within its borders can might have to deal with
widely fluctuating economies.

<snipped>

L. Sicini writes:
In
Antiquita the Censores were elected every five years, and in effect
set the rates when they let out the tax collecting contracts to the
Publicani, so it would be in keeping with the mos maiorum to adjust
the provincial rates every five years. An hours work every five years
isn't much of a headache!

OFS: Gratias for the lesson from the Censores of
yore. Mos Mairoum satisfaction perhaps, but financial
realities -especially in countries that frequently experience
currency fluctuations and rampant inflation, often dictate
conditions changing by the month or even by the week.
Every five years is not a realistic period of time, since
we're looking to be so granular and 'fair' in our denarii
collection efforts.

Point is -if we're going to travel down this road at
all (and I will fully agree that there are some good
and valid reasons for traveling down this road,) then
we need to consider more factors than CIA GDP multipliers.
I will concede though, that IF such a system were to
be adopted, you have shown that there are some practical
means of completing the raw calculations; assuming
a data baseline is agreed on.

<snipped>

L. Sicini writes:
The Exchange rates are a problem. This could be partially solved by
setting up a separate account in Europe, and collecting the taxes in
that area in Euros. Since we are discussing an archaeological dig and
this would more than likely occur in Europe having a Euro account
would save us the inital exchange in sending the money to the US and a
second exchange in sending it back to Europe for the dig.

OFS: An interesting solution. Or, everything could be based
on Euros. However, establishing the right relationships with
multinational banks (most are anymore anyways,) we can have
them take care of the transactions and conversions. As long
as we have a means of taking in credit card transactions and
verifying them against a central, multinational authority then
they will work out the exchange rates automatically.
While there would probably be some sort of fee for such
transactions (or maybe not, I'm not sure nor an expert
on these transactions,) in time and with frequency of transactions
this fee could lessen or become even non-existent due
to a good working relationship with the financial institution.

<snipped>

L. Sicini writes:
If there is only one National rate this would handicap the propraetors
of provinces with lower incomes. After sending the National Tax they
would have problems raising the local tax simply because thier
citizens couldn't afford to pay as much. If the taxes are set by GDP
rates then the propraetors would have more leeway to raise funds for
provincial activities.

OFS: See above. As far as fee variance, I am still in
favor of a 'joining' fee or national citizen registry
fee, coupled with perhaps additional provincial tax
collection. These need not be mutually exclusive and I would
think that for a 'newbie,' it would be easier to state up
front that there is a $xx fee associated with joining.
Besides just enhancing the state coffers with a flat 'fee
collection' up front at the time of citizenship confirmation,
there is the added benefit of positive reinforcement
by enforcing the idea that the civis gets 'something' for
their initial efforts.

<snipped>

L. Sicini writes:
This does bring up another problem. Some Provinces are suffering from
the actions of past governers who weren't very active. My Provincia
has NO government. No Propraetor, No legates, No website, No mailing
list, Nothing!

OFS: As a civis who endured the same situation until a
few short weeks ago with the appointment of an active
and capable governor, I can attest that this an all
too common problem.

<snipped>

L. Sicini writes:
Perhaps leaving the collection of
taxes up to the Provinces would make the Senate a little more diligent
in thier duty to oversee the provinces and prevent a future recurrance
of the sad state of affairs that exists in America Austrorientalis
(among other provinces) today.

OFS: Per above, I don't think we need to look
at mutually exclusive revenue collection measures
here. Similar to here in the states, where we have
'federal,' and 'state' taxes. (And in some cases,
county and city taxes as well.) However, personally
I don't think we can use this as a means of increasing
any notion of 'diligence' in the Senate.

<snipped>

Bene valete,
Oppius

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Busy, not gone!
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 12:05:23 -0700

Salve Propraetor Fabi;

Not to worry. It's hard to imagine how anyone
on the list could possibly see you as 'inactive,'
or suffering from lowered activity levels! In
reading through all the appointments and provincial
status reports that you've sent out, one can
only be impressed by the degree of diligence
and excellence with which you've applied yourself
to the tasks at hand. You have most obviously
been very busy with highly practical and
productive efforts -something we should all
aspire to.

Thule is truly fortunate to be blessed with such
competent and able administration.

Bene vale in Pace Deorum,
-Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: Christer Edling [mailto:tjalens.h@--------]
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 11:19 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Cc: ThuleNovaRoma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Busy, not gone!

Salvete Omnes!

I have to mail You all to explain why I not participating in all
discussions, not even answering when I am personally addressed. Since my
appointment to Propraetor of Thule I have been extremly busy. I have been
working with Provincia Thule 8 -16 hours á day. I have put together the
Report, the Regula and the Plan. I have contacted civi within Thule to get
their assistants in my Cohors Propraetoris (Propraetorian Staff). I have
kept my other Nova Roman personal correspondance going. I have been working
with the Agenda for our first Consilium plenum. The Agenda now contains 10
issues and the Plena will take place the 16th to the 29th April. The
preparations of the agenda have taken a lot of time although I will ask the
members of the Consilium to prepare reports on some issues each!

<snipped>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Keeping citizens interested (was Re: Conflict of Interest)
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 14:14:05 -0500

Salvete

> Well of course it is unequal. Here you have an old-timer who has
> been in NR for a long time, knows the ropes, has the experience.
> And, here you have a newbie. The one underlying aspect in this
> relationship is trust. There must be trust between the oldtimer and
> newbie.

No. The patronus-cliens relationship was a contractual one. Tit for
tat. It was not an apprenticeship or a mentorship. It was influence
peddling, pure and simple.

I have a lot of money. You don't. If you give me your vote and as much
support as you can politically, I will feed you. Or, more often, you
were my slave. I freed you, but your obligation to serve me still
extends throughout your life.

Neither of these options were predicated upon some kind of fuzzy
paternal trust. They were recognized and enforced by written and
unwritten laws.

Now, if we want to create some form apprenticeship or a mentorship
program and *call* it the patronus-cliens relationship in much the same
way that we have created a bastardized version of the tribuni plebis,
recognizing that our circumstances and ethics don't allow for the
ancient practice, then I am not opposed to it, though I think our
current institutions (apparitores, sodalitates, etc.) can suffice for
this. If we want to re-establish the contractual influence peddling of
the ancients, then I cannot support it. The ancients may have felt that
it was fine to profit from one's position, but I choose to place
influence peddling and the like in the rubbish bin along with
institutionalized sexism and slavery.

> Sure, but even you must admit, that many of our citizens should have
> some training even if they are not scribae or accensi.

Why? Why ever should our cives have some training? In what way shall
they be trained? Are you suggesting some kind of curriculum by which
new cives should be taught Romanitas? And Nerva accuses me of being for
social engineering!

> And, even those citizens who are not interested about serving in
> politics could benefit from learning from our older citizens.

The Apparitores are not necessarily political positions. They are
simply assistants. As such, they get to see how the government runs.
If a civis is not interested in the government, then we have several
sodalitates and quite a few knowledgable people they can contact about
their interests. None of these have a thing to do with the ancient
practice. One became a patronus to further one's political interests,
not to teach about mosaics.

> The one drawback between the scribae avenue, is it is for only one
> year. whereas I definately see the patron/clientage relationship
> lasting a much longer time frame since we, the citizens of Nova Roma
> are going from one mindset to a completely new mindset.

Excuse me? Are we some kind of cult?

> One year really isn't enough to educate our new citizens what it
> really means to be a Nova Roman.

Nor is one person. A mentor might be able to give a civis a leg-up, but
only a few years of interacting with a society will give you a real feel
for it. And, you're implying here (though not necessarily
intentionally) that each entering civis should be given such a mentor,
which is utterly unfeasible.

> The other drawback I see about the scribae, is that they will have
> duties they must do. As Nova Roma grows and develops our
> responsibilities will undoubtedly double and triple....thus our
> reliance on our scribes and other officials will increase.

Yes! And one learns by doing. I learned an immense amount about how
the trina comitia work by being a rogator. I learned nearly as much as
a censorial scriba and a consular accensus, primarily from performing
the duties of the positions.

> As this happens, the ability for those new citizens who are serving
> in those positions to ask questions and understand AND for our senior
> magistrates to answer those questions and inquiries will lessen.
> This will not happen if one has a Patron. For patrons can be
> magistrates, ex-magistrates or even not politically orientated
> citizens.

If you're not politically oriented, then why ever would you enter into a
contract with someone to provide instruction to a cliens in return
for... what? Our current currencies are information, vocal support, and
votes. Information of a scholastic nature is free for the asking, and
it is ostensibly the patronus doing the instructing anyway. Vocal
support and votes are both political in nature. I suppose you could
make some agreement like, "I'll show you the ropes and you can help me
make a gens Web page," or some such, but why would you need a special
sort of contract and laws for that?

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach
conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant."
-Helen Keller

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Subject:	[novaroma] Taxes Revisited
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 19:01:10 +0200 (CEST)

Salve, romani quirites.

I'd like to express my apologies for not contributing
to the list for the last couple of days, but I've had
troubles with my connection server.

Now that I'm finally back, I'd like to express my
opinion about the single most important issue I've
read about in the mail group in the last few days. As
the title of this mail directly implies, that issue is
the proposition to implant a taxation system in Nova
Roma. I'd like to divide my suggestions in three
paragraphs, so as to make them easier to understand.

1.- My first point would be the impact of taxes in the
recruiting of new citizens. When I first about Nova
Roma, I could probably have been frightened by the
fact I were asked money. I know most organizations
(and certainly every nation) have membership fees or
taxes. But this point should very well explained to
new citizens, as well as it should be made clear that
the fact of not paying taxes wouldn't mean your
expulsion of Nova Roma.

2.- My second point is about the "punishment" due for
not paying your taxes. I've read about placing
non-payers in the four urban tribes of the Comitia
Tribuna. I think any voting "punishment" should be
restricted to downclassing the "offender" in the
Comitia Centuriata. As this latter Comitia holds a
great amount of power, it'd be a strong "deterrent".
But to "downclass" them in the Comitia Tributa would
be not only too strong for my liking, but also
historically unappropriate, as Comitia Tributa were
supposed to be undifferent to personal wealth and to
the payment of taxes in Roma Antiqua. I'd suggest
instead that every citizen should be even with taxes
before applying to any public position (elected or
not).

3.- My third point is about tax control. I know that,
in theory, taxes and such items fall under senatorial
control. I've also seen many propositions which state
that taxes should be determined by provincial
governors. I'd approve both things. But I'd like to
see just another, more "democratic" way of tax
control.
I know that's what Tribuni Plebis are for, but I'd
like to see an additional tax control system. Maybe
the Senate and Provincial Praetores should present
(and vote) the Expenditurae Rerum Publicarum to the
Comitia Tribuna, which could approve them (or not).

Please feel free to discuss these issues. I didn't
mean to offend anyone. My intention was simply to
express my own point of view.

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Protocivis romanus.

_______________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A Conquest!
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 19:21:15 +0200 (CEST)

Salve, romani.

--- syphax_venaliccii@-------- escribió: > Salvete!

> I, P. Gramatinicus Albinus, have conquered the Texas
> State Junior
> Classical League tournement just recently! It was
> held in Denton, TX,
> at the University of North Texas. I competed in the
> folling
> catagories, followed by my placement.
>
> Roman Life Level IV, 4th place
> Greek Life and Literature Level IV, 5th place
> Open Certamen (buzzer game), 1st place
> Boy's Costume, 10th place (pictures soon!)
> Pentathalon Level IV, Magna Cum Laude
>
> Placing 5th or better qualifies to to attend the
> National Junior
> Classical League's Convention, held this year at
> Tulane University in
> New Orleans. Wish me luck for Nationals!
>

Congratulations, Grammaticus. I DO wish you good luck
for the Nationals.

I wish such events where also held in my Provincia.
Hey, comprovinciales! What about starting one?

Venga, hispánicos; animémonos y hagamos algo digno de
ser recordado.

> *On a smaller note, I have written an essay on the
> Cursus Honorum,
> and any who would like to read it, just send me an
> email expressing
> your wish.*
>
> P. Gramatinicus Albinus
>

Please send it to me! I'd be extremely pleased to read
it. Thank you in advance.

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Protocivis romanus.

_______________________________________________________________
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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] 1. Report 2. Proposal of Regula 3. Proposal of Plan
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 21:36:24 +0200

>Salve Caeso Fabi;
>
>Just a short note saying what an excellent provincial
>report! Well-structured, detailed and easy to follow.
>This will make a nice model for others to follow.
>
>Great job!!!
>
>Bene vale,
>Oppius Flaccus Severus, Legatus America Boreoccidentalis Major

Salve Honorable Legatus Oppius Flaccus Severus!

I thank You for your kind words, now I can work a few hour more!

Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Appointments in Thule 7th April 2754
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 21:39:09 +0200

>Salvete Cives of Thule et Quiritibus;
>
>Congratulations to all the new officers of
>Thule! Your provincial organization is looking
>quite excellent.
>
>Bene valete,
>Oppius Flaccus Severus, Legatus America Boreoccidentalis Major

Salve Honorable Legatus Oppius Flaccus Severus!

Yes I think that I am quite lucky! The whole of my Cohors Propraetoris
seems to look good. More are to come. Let's hope we live up to expectations!

Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
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************************************************
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MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Clientelism (a general comment)
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 21:39:23 +0200

Salve Oppi Flacce,

((snipped))

> Draco writes:
> They made the balance of good and bad for themselves in NR, and then
decided
> to leave. They'd stuck around long enough to make that balance for
> themselves.
>
> OFS: That's fine; but as you say it very much was
> a balance of 'good and bad' for *themselves,* was and is
> about *themselves,* and not Nova Roma as a whole. the problem
> is that there has been an express implication in the posts
> of some closely allied and friends with the departed ones,
> that their view of NR and its 'badness,' was somehow a universal
> one or that it applied to anyone outside of their circle.
>

It's not universal, but in friendships it's common to share many opinions
your friends have.

((snipped))

> Draco writes:
> Of course, there's a difference between slavery and clientelism. But I
find
> the possible bad consequences of clientelism (abuse of trust, corruption,
> nepotism) to be outweighing the good consequences (friendship, loyalty,
> experience) still. Of course, as Nerva says, it's a citizen's right to
> choose for himself, but I for one will never be someone's cliens, nor will
I
> be someone's patronus.
>
> OFS: And this I can truly appreciate. This indeed at the
> root of the issue; -one's choice. Clientelism is not a
> mandated practice in Nova Roma. In fact, *no one* has to engage
> in it if they choose not to. There is more choice here
> then I think you give credit for. Clientelism in the
> context discussed, can simply be regarded as a contract
> between two people -IF they choose to regard it in contractual
> terms. Likewise, it can simply be an agreement between
> two or more people as to how they wish to conduct a particular
> relationship. It is certainly imperative that those
> considering entering into a relation be very 'up front' with
> one another in establishing the guidelines.
>
> You do seem to have a real propensity to want to see an
> overtly negative balance in some of those things in which
> you do not agree.

I disagree with them because I see a negative tendency when I make up the
balance, not the other way around.

((snipped))

> Draco writes:
> Whether or not this obligation exists depends on the one who experiences
it
> that way. It's not an obligation towards your employer you feel, but an
> obligation towards °yourself° to do certain things for that employer.
Which
> is your own choice.
>
> OFS: Well, honestly I think we're traveling down old
> 'semantics road' here. Yes, I agree that 'obligations' are
> subjective relative to those that hold them. However, to say
> that it is always 'to oneself' (getting back to my question
> of your 'freewill' type argument,) that the obligation is directed
> is not accurate. As people, we are capable of much broader
> senses of obligation to many different things. In the employer
> scenario, it is quite possible for one to feel 'obliged'
> to do well not only for one's own sake, but also for the
> sake of a boss, a co-worker, the success of the company/project/
> venture.
>

(I'm crossposting this to the philosophy list) It's not about semantics, but
more about how the psyche of a human being works. You wish for the
well-being for your boss, co-workers or the company (or the state) because
it will most likely prove beneficial to yourself. I won't deny empathy will
play a large role as well, but regarding an impersonal entity such as a
state, the things you do for your community (i.e. "obligations") you
ultimately do for yourself.

> Draco writes:
> If truth depends on viewpoint, truth cannot be absolute. You may see
nothing
> wrong with damaging the reputation of people who left (and are therefore
> defenceless), but I do.
>
> OFS: Well, perhaps we can clarify a few things here for the sake
> of our discussion.
>
> 1-Truth does not necessarily depend on viewpoint. There are many different
> 'types' and levels of 'truth.' -Actually, another good discussion for
> the Philosophy list that you were shamelessly promoting :-) The question
> of 'what is truth' I think is a bit broad and interpretive for this
> discussion.
>
> That being said, let me break down my context of discussion into the
"Vastly
> Simplified,
> Oppius View of Truth" -sounded a bit melodramatic eh? Ok, will this code
> of truth sees two 'shades' of truth. Absolute and subjective. Here is
> the absolute: "They left." We as Novaromani are here, *they* are not.
> Period. Even on the metaphysical level, it would be difficult to make
> a substantive case for them not being here, unless we're getting into
> the dimensional, mental and molecular levels. In Oppi's view of
"Absolute
> Truth,"
> the fact that 'they are not here,' is difficult to argue. (Ok, yes
> they do live on in our minds/memories, but to be very specific -I'm
> addressing the 'physicality' of their 'non-here' state.)
>

If I °really° want to get down to semantics, even the fact "they left" is
not absolute. If a madman refuses to accept this in the face of hard
evidence, and percieves the physical on-line presence of let's say Piscinus
as a fact (like some crazy people claim they have seen Elvis, tho' I'm not
advocating further comparison :-)), this becomes the absolute truth for that
man. Nothing (or everything) is absolute. Of course, the statement "they
left" has a higher degree of "absoluteness" than the statement "they left
because they were villains", which leans more towards "relativeness". Call
if hair-splitting if you will :).

> Subjective truth on the other hand, is a different thing all together.
> I can say "truth is, those that left were wrong to do so because of
> x, y and z." You can say, "but those that left us had good, true and
> honorable reasons for doing so." Thus, you have your own 'variation'
> on the 'absolute' truth of them being gone, while I have mine. Since
> in the cosmic scheme of things, it can be argued that neither view may
> be 'absolute truth,' we can only go by commonality of opinion and
feeling.
>
> 2-I fail to see that I've said anywhere that it's ok to wantonly work
> to 'damage' someone's reputation.

You didn't say this, of course, I was merely being sarcastic, and it was a
comment to Senator Australicus' posting rather than yours, I believe.

> Those that left have every ability
> to post to the main list with any view or 'defense' that they choose.
The list
> is
> public, any 'accusations' that I can think of made by either themselves
> or Novaromani were done so on the public list which I believe is
> open to all, citizens or not. So the argument that they are
'defenseless'
> is a baseless one.

I believe it is not. They can't defend °themselves° as they aren't here
anymore to reply to what may be injust criticism.

> Now, I *will* agree that name calling, pointless bashing and the like
> serve no good purpose. For myself, it is only when someone comes forward
> to make people out to be saints and glorious martyrs for acts that
others
> may view as treasonous, that the discussion begs a different point of
view.
> This is what myself and others have done.

I've never said my friends were noble martyrs for the Roman cause, but they
were noble. Personal opinion: their own nobility forced them to resign
rather than to stay and put up the umpteenth fight they would surely lose.

Vale bene!
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Scriba Aedilis Plebis,
Lupercus Fabianus
Coryphaeus Sodalitatis Musarum,
Musaeus Collegii Eratus,
Musaeus Collegii Uraniae
Triumvir Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
Darkling_Crawler, Yahoo IM

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Clientelism (a general comment)
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 12:53:26 -0700

Salve Draco;

Gratias multas for the thorough reply.
Per my response to Mani Villi this morning,
I have nothing further to say on this list
regarding the topic at hand.

You and I and others disagree with one
another over certain points which is
to be expected and for the record; I respect
those whose opinions differ from my own
and any difference in same is not directed
at the individual, but toward the arguments
of the individual.

That being said, I *do* want to reply to
your point about cross posting on the
Philosophy list. I was unable to come across
it last night to get subscribed, so if at all
possible might you be so kind as to auto-
subscribe me to that list? It appears that
there are some interesting points for further
debate that might be fun (and more appropriate,)
for that venue.

Gratias multas,
Oppius

-----Original Message-----
From: S. Apollonius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 12:39 PM
To: novaroma@--------; NR Philosophy
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Clientelism (a general comment)

Salve Oppi Flacce,

<snipped>

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Busy, not gone!
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 22:01:06 +0200

>Salve Propraetor Fabi;
>
>Not to worry. It's hard to imagine how anyone
>on the list could possibly see you as 'inactive,'
>or suffering from lowered activity levels! In
>reading through all the appointments and provincial
>status reports that you've sent out, one can
>only be impressed by the degree of diligence
>and excellence with which you've applied yourself
>to the tasks at hand. You have most obviously
>been very busy with highly practical and
>productive efforts -something we should all
>aspire to.
>
>Thule is truly fortunate to be blessed with such
>competent and able administration.
>
>Bene vale in Pace Deorum,
>-Oppius

Salve Honorable Legatus Oppius Flaccus Severus!

You are fast becoming my Amicus! Welcome into the gang! ;-)

Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
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Subject:	[novaroma] Many Thanks
From:	"Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@-------->
Date:	Mon, 9 Apr 2001 08:17:11 +1200

Domna Claudia Auspicata Quiritibus SPD

Before I perform my oath of office, I would humbly ask for your attention in order that I may thank all I feel indebted to for my recent success in the election for Rogator.

Of course for the voters I have a big smile. To those who do not know me and voted based merely on our brief and succinct campaigns, I thank you for understanding and putting trust in my words. I will not disappoint you. To those with whom I have had contact, whether it be in the Sodalitas Musarum, the Sodalitas Latinitas, the Forum, or Gens Claudia I thank you for your support! Thanks also to Consul Flavius Vedius Germanicus for calling these elections and filling the gaps promptly and to the people involved in the election process, the Censors, the curator araneae and the Rogatores. I look forward to being of assistance.

The voter turnout seemed to me to be very poor, a problem all too common for our nation at present. Granted, the Rogator campaign was comparatively low-key, for our own good reasons. But it will remain of great importance to me to encourage citizens to vote, the easiest and one of the most important ways they can participate in this nation.

I would like to end my thanks by extending my hand to Franciscus Apulus Caesar and Titus Curius Dannicus. An election is not the same without fine opposition. This of course incurred more than one sleepless hour as I nervously awaited the results. And my nervous disposition was not at all unfounded as I look at the close result. Congratulations to Titus Curius Dannicus for a fine 'battle'!

Thank you all for your time!
Domna Claudia Auspicata

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Subject:	[novaroma] Oath of Office - Rogator
From:	"Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@-------->
Date:	Mon, 9 Apr 2001 08:22:37 +1200

I, Domna Claudia Auspicata (Comptess Claudine Simone Hammond) do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Domna Claudia Auspicata swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Domna Claudia Auspicata swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Domna Claudia Auspicata swear to protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Domna Claudia Auspicata further swear to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Rogator to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the position of Rogator and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes Revisited
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 22:23:50 +0200

Salvete Quirites et Gnae Salix,

((snipped))

> 2.- My second point is about the "punishment" due for
> not paying your taxes. I've read about placing
> non-payers in the four urban tribes of the Comitia
> Tribuna. I think any voting "punishment" should be
> restricted to downclassing the "offender" in the
> Comitia Centuriata. As this latter Comitia holds a
> great amount of power, it'd be a strong "deterrent".
> But to "downclass" them in the Comitia Tributa would
> be not only too strong for my liking, but also
> historically unappropriate, as Comitia Tributa were
> supposed to be undifferent to personal wealth and to
> the payment of taxes in Roma Antiqua. I'd suggest
> instead that every citizen should be even with taxes
> before applying to any public position (elected or
> not).

I quite agree here. People who don't pay should not be punished. It's very
dangerous: what if citizen Lentus forgets to pay, or his payment comes in
late? Or what if a certain propraetor steals the money and leaves NR, and a
few people say "I paid", not being able to prove it? The day that happens,
I'm leaving. People who want to pay, pay, people who don't want to, or
cannot, don't. I would suggest though that Senatores and higher magistrates
(Praetores, Consules, Censores) pay.

One might argue: in a macronation, everyone pays tax. But in exchange, in a
macronation, you can get protection from your local police officers and the
fire department. If I get attacked in the city, I might be waiting centuries
for the first Aedilis to come to the rescue. Paying taxes = more power is a
19th century system which led to bloody revolutions, and will lead to
secessions here. My opinion.

> 3.- My third point is about tax control. I know that,
> in theory, taxes and such items fall under senatorial
> control. I've also seen many propositions which state
> that taxes should be determined by provincial
> governors. I'd approve both things. But I'd like to
> see just another, more "democratic" way of tax
> control.
> I know that's what Tribuni Plebis are for, but I'd
> like to see an additional tax control system. Maybe
> the Senate and Provincial Praetores should present
> (and vote) the Expenditurae Rerum Publicarum to the
> Comitia Tribuna, which could approve them (or not).

I find this a very good idea. On a related note, I'm suddenly reminded of
Iuvenalis: "but who is to guard the guards themselves?"

Valete bene,
Draco

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Subject:	[novaroma] Clientelism (another general comment)
From:	"Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@-------->
Date:	Mon, 9 Apr 2001 08:57:16 +1200

Salvete Cives!

I would just like to add to this discussion some points that perhaps have been overlooked.

As has been already been pointed out a citizens associations are their own right and business. There may be some that can find any constructive elements of a patron-client relationship of benefit, although I doubt any of you would go so far as to expect, as 'clients', dinners, paid employment, etc and as 'patrons', early morning wakeup calls, votes for you in the elections or general thuggery towards your 'enemies'! No, indeed I haven't seen anyone proposing to 're-enact' these more colourful cultural traditions of our ancestors for which I am relieved. However there is some element of 'do ut des' that people are interested in. How this may take form will be totally up to the individuals concerned and yet I add some advice drawn from the wisdom of our ancestors themselves...

Seneca wrote an exhaustive work On Benefits 'De Benefiis', an ethical work that argues the virtues of the ideal benefactor/beneficiary. I urge all citizens who have an interest in pursuing some sort of patron-client relationship to pay attention to the virtues propounded in this work. A short excerpt...

'The best man is he who gives readily, never demands any return, rejoices if a return is made, who in all sincerity forgets what he has bestowed, and accepts a return in the spirit of one accepting a benefit.' 2.17.7

'Since that which I am forced to recieve is not a benefit, that also which puts me under obligation to someone against my will is not a benefit.' 2.19.2

I would also like to challenge the assumption (hmm, I am assuming there is an assumption from what I have read) that in ancient Rome, one patron had many clients and not the other way around. Actually clients often had more than one patron (as if one wouldn't have been tiring enough, can you imagine all the wakeup calls (salutatio) in one morning!) SO if in the spirit of ancient Roma any citizens wish to pursue some sort of patron-client relationship no need to settle for one!

Valete bene
Domna Claudia Auspicata

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Subject:	[novaroma] Is Britannia still active?
From:	bertlogger@--------
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 21:38:58 -0000

Who do I contact for Britannia?

BL

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Old Business II: Resignation Edict
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Mon, 9 Apr 2001 00:03:55 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

I am grateful to Draco for raising again the issue of the
Resignation Edictum, which deserves to be quite as infamous as the
Gender Edictum, due to its fundamentally ill-considered, unfair, and
punitive nature.

The principal problems with it are two:

1. It is intended to present limitations, obstacles and de facto
punishments to persons wishing to join Nova Roma, based simply on
their having been members in good standing before, and having chosen
to leave. Discouraging persons from leaving would be a natural desire
(if improper and impossible), but causing problems for those wishing
to *return* after sober consideration and perhaps changes in their
life conditions is targetting a group that deserves rather to be
welcomed home.

2. It provides for de facto punishments for persons who have
committed no crime, thus violating a fundamental principle of
justice. Neither leaving Nova Roma nor choosing to return are crimes,
but normal affairs of life. And yet the provisions dripping with icy
unwelcome and punitive intent treat returners as though they were
criminals and suspect characters, instead of persons sufficiently in
love with Nova Roma to take the trouble to return after for one
reason or another leaving for a time.

We are here not here talking about people who have been exiled - our
nearest approach to capital punishment - but about persons who simply
becasue of personal (or possibly moral or political) reasons decided
to leave. This is a right in the world civil society that we live in.
And if someone decides to return, that is a gift of that person to
Nova Roma for which we should be grateful. If we are sane and humane,
we will welcome back all who choose to return, as any other normal
organisation would.

In the previous debate there was too much emphasis on the
micronational aspects of Nova Roma to an unrealistic extent, and in
comparing ourselves with macronations we got involved with a model
not truly relevant to us, and one apparently touching off excessive
emotions in some. We are a micronation, but not a macronation. No one
depends on us for his passport and his right to live in a place,
travel internationally, and hold down a job. Our citizenship is
always a second citizenship, and carries fewer natural benefits: it
must therefore carry fewer responsibilities if it is to be taken
seriously, and no amount of pomposity in the phrasing of our laws can
change that basic fact.

If one joins, say, the Sierra Club, or any other normal membership
organisation, one can join and leave according to one's own needs and
desires, and the worst that might happen is that one must wait for
the applications for rejoining to be processed each time and perhaps
one might have to pay a year's dues over again if unlucky. That
commonsensical state of affairs should be our model.

Now, there is one *legitimate* concern here that might actually
deserve to be addressed: "revolving door" membership, in which a
member leaves and returns repeatedly, thus causing an unreasonable
amount of work and bother for the censors. Avoiding this, however,
could be effected with one simple rule:

"Any civis may return after a voluntary resignation not more than
once in any twelve-month period."

With this simple rule, the censors would not be bothered
unreasonably, and returning persons would not be treated with
suspicion or de facto punishments for non-crimes. It would do its job
and not infringe on the natural rights of the person to freedom of
association.

The provisions for senators and gens membership are no problem. But
let us remember that many people can leave for many reasons: loss of
easy or affordable internet access, extreme job or family pressures,
legitimate ethical/political protest, extreme sickness, normal
fluctuational in interest and priorities... None of these involves
hatred for Nova Roma, all are natural matters in our real human lives
- let us, then, treat them so.

Quirites, we need to give up on punitive laws and remember that we
exist because we can attract people to come here - and back to here -
and to stay and participate. We need more of a will to please and to
serve our cives, and less of an inclination to rule them or hold them
in awe to a state that they can leave at any time - as many notable
and active persons here rcently did. Nova Roma *is* its cives, and it
behooves us to treat each other decently and well, and as fellow
human beings - not as potential objections of regulation, humiliation
and punishment.

Valete!
________________
Draco scripsit:

Subject: Re: Old Business II: Resignation Edict

Salve iterum Consul Vedi,

Well, I've come to bother the people once again :).

> EDICTUM CENSORIAL DE CIVITATE EIURANDA
>
>
> RESIGNATION OF CITIZENSHIP IN NOVAROMA
>
> AUGUST 27, 2000

(snipped)

> When a citizen resigns citizenship in Nova Roma, and the
>resignation becomes official after nine days, the ex-citizen is
>barred from reapplication and reinstatement for a period of six
>months, effective from the date his or her
> resignation became official.

Opponents of this edict said that people who °really° want out simply
won't care for this edictum, while people who truly love Roma are
being punished by this. This was and is a non-solution for a
non-problem.

> (For example, if a citizen resigned on May 1 2000, and his
>resignation became official on May 9, 2000, he could not be
reinstated until November 9, 2000)
>

(snipped)

> Senatorial status may be resumed
> at the discretion of both the Senate and of the censores
>collegially. Gens affiliation in all instances remains at the
>discretion of the pater or materfamilias.

Why would the Censores have power over the Senate in this matter? In
fact, they are both Senatores, so even if 18 out of 20 Senatores vote
in favour of said citizen, the two Censores could still prevent that
citizen from returning into the Senate. So I'd scrap the Censores
from this paragraph.

> If a citizen resigns, is subsequently reinstated, and resigns a
>second time, that ex-citizen is barred for two years from
>reinstatement. Such a citizen is furthermore barred from running for
>any elected public office for two
> years following re-admission, with no recourse.
>
> If a citizen resigns, is subsequently reinstated, and resigns a
>second time, is subsequently reinstated, and resigns a third time,
>that ex-citizen is barred forever from reinstatement. The
>ex-citizen has despised his citizenship and shown contempt for the
>state: he may never be reinstated thereafter.

"Contempt for the state" sounds, and I am sorry to say it, °very°
authoritarian. However, I do think two paragraphs above are better,
and truly offer a solution (for what is still a non-problem anyway)
in case some cives keep leaving and coming back. I'd change the "two
years" to six months though.

(snipped)

Valete bene,
Draco

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, Aedilis Plebeius Novae Romae
Amicus Dignitatis; Scriba Censorius
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
____________________________________________________
Memento Idus Martias - non omnino bene Respublica se habet.
(Remember the Ides of March - it is not all well with the Republic.)
____________________________________________________

All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph in the world is for
enough good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
___________________________________________________

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Keeping citizens interested (was Re: Conflict of Interest)
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 18:35:52 EDT

<<? And Nerva accuses me of being for social engineering!>>

I do not recall mentioning your name.

Nerva

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Clientelism (a general comment)
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 18:46:43 EDT

<<They can't defend °themselves° as they aren't here anymore to reply to what
may be injust criticism.>>

How about an effective remedy? No more "criticism" of those who left, and no
more laudatory tear shedding valedictories either?

They are gone, have been gone for nearly a month, and it is past time to move
on.

Nerva

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Museum Trip!!!
From:	"Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 19:00:41 -0400

Salvete!

I am planning a joint Nova Britannia/Legio VI trip to the Boston Museum of
Fine Arts on (tentatively) Saturday April 28th. The Museum has excellent
Egyptian and Classical galleries, and it will be a great opportunity to for
fellow Nova Romans to meet, and build a sense of community. I am planning
(again tentatively) to meet sometime in the late morning (11:00ish),
followed by lunch in one of Museums fine eateries so we can have a chance to
get to chat, the on to the exhibits. Admission to the Museum is $12.00 for
adults, and $10.00 for students/seniors. I was planning on lunch at the
Fraser Garden Court Terrace, which looks nice and seems to have reasonable
prices. If you'd like more information on the Museum (which as an great
website) go to www.mfa.org If you're interested please let me know as soon
as possible, so we can finalize plans. If there are a lot of citizens who
are interested, and simply can't make the 28th, please let me know. The
14th, 15th and 29th are potential alternate dates (assuming there in enough
interest in for one of them).

Valete!

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Legatus of Massachusetts
Pilus Prior Secunda Cohors
Legio VI Victrix

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes Revisited
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 16:26:14 -0700

Salvete Omnes,
It sounds like we are trying to reinvent the wheel. There's no need to
devise a tax plan. Let's look at how it was done in antiqua. We are
reconstructors are we not?
(Procopious winces and dons his breastplate and helm)

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason
for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
----- Original Message -----
From: "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Taxes Revisited

> Salvete Quirites et Gnae Salix,
>
> ((snipped))
>
> > 2.- My second point is about the "punishment" due for
> > not paying your taxes. I've read about placing
> > non-payers in the four urban tribes of the Comitia
> > Tribuna. I think any voting "punishment" should be
> > restricted to downclassing the "offender" in the
> > Comitia Centuriata. As this latter Comitia holds a
> > great amount of power, it'd be a strong "deterrent".
> > But to "downclass" them in the Comitia Tributa would
> > be not only too strong for my liking, but also
> > historically unappropriate, as Comitia Tributa were
> > supposed to be undifferent to personal wealth and to
> > the payment of taxes in Roma Antiqua. I'd suggest
> > instead that every citizen should be even with taxes
> > before applying to any public position (elected or
> > not).
>
> I quite agree here. People who don't pay should not be punished. It's very
> dangerous: what if citizen Lentus forgets to pay, or his payment comes in
> late? Or what if a certain propraetor steals the money and leaves NR, and
a
> few people say "I paid", not being able to prove it? The day that happens,
> I'm leaving. People who want to pay, pay, people who don't want to, or
> cannot, don't. I would suggest though that Senatores and higher
magistrates
> (Praetores, Consules, Censores) pay.
>
> One might argue: in a macronation, everyone pays tax. But in exchange, in
a
> macronation, you can get protection from your local police officers and
the
> fire department. If I get attacked in the city, I might be waiting
centuries
> for the first Aedilis to come to the rescue. Paying taxes = more power is
a
> 19th century system which led to bloody revolutions, and will lead to
> secessions here. My opinion.
>
> > 3.- My third point is about tax control. I know that,
> > in theory, taxes and such items fall under senatorial
> > control. I've also seen many propositions which state
> > that taxes should be determined by provincial
> > governors. I'd approve both things. But I'd like to
> > see just another, more "democratic" way of tax
> > control.
> > I know that's what Tribuni Plebis are for, but I'd
> > like to see an additional tax control system. Maybe
> > the Senate and Provincial Praetores should present
> > (and vote) the Expenditurae Rerum Publicarum to the
> > Comitia Tribuna, which could approve them (or not).
>
> I find this a very good idea. On a related note, I'm suddenly reminded of
> Iuvenalis: "but who is to guard the guards themselves?"
>
> Valete bene,
> Draco
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Taxes Revisited
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:44:51 +1000

Salvete

Unfortunately we all have to exist in the real world. Albeit that we wish
to create a world based on the old Republic, the SPQR in the current world
has to pay for things such as web site hosting, stationary and god knows
what else. Anyone that has been involved from the local scout group to the
local football club knows that there is such a thing as "subscriptions".
How can we grow without some source of revenue - I mean we have the flags
and stickers, but how much does that make for NOVA - bugger all - the simple
fact is that if a Citizen does not pay their taxes, then they are no longer
Citizens. All citizens enjoy the benefit of what the taxes pay for - it is
as simple as that - what we should also consider is that NOVA can consider
levying taxes on Citizens according to their real world income - so as that
those who can afford to pay more will pay more and those that cannot will
only make a minor tribute - TAX and REVENUE is not a dirty word - PROFIT is
not a dirty word - it pays for things that benefits all of us ...

The quotation "but who is to guard the guards themselves?" is offensive and
shows an attitude of distrust on the whole concept - we must trust those who
have been elected - how else can NOVA operate but through Trust and loyalty
...

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: Lucius Mauricius Procopious [mailto:procopious@--------]
Sent: Monday, 9 April 2001 9:26 Am
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Taxes Revisited

Salvete Omnes,
It sounds like we are trying to reinvent the wheel. There's no need to
devise a tax plan. Let's look at how it was done in antiqua. We are
reconstructors are we not?
(Procopious winces and dons his breastplate and helm)

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason
for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
----- Original Message -----
From: "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Taxes Revisited

> Salvete Quirites et Gnae Salix,
>
> ((snipped))
>
> > 2.- My second point is about the "punishment" due for
> > not paying your taxes. I've read about placing
> > non-payers in the four urban tribes of the Comitia
> > Tribuna. I think any voting "punishment" should be
> > restricted to downclassing the "offender" in the
> > Comitia Centuriata. As this latter Comitia holds a
> > great amount of power, it'd be a strong "deterrent".
> > But to "downclass" them in the Comitia Tributa would
> > be not only too strong for my liking, but also
> > historically unappropriate, as Comitia Tributa were
> > supposed to be undifferent to personal wealth and to
> > the payment of taxes in Roma Antiqua. I'd suggest
> > instead that every citizen should be even with taxes
> > before applying to any public position (elected or
> > not).
>
> I quite agree here. People who don't pay should not be punished. It's very
> dangerous: what if citizen Lentus forgets to pay, or his payment comes in
> late? Or what if a certain propraetor steals the money and leaves NR, and
a
> few people say "I paid", not being able to prove it? The day that happens,
> I'm leaving. People who want to pay, pay, people who don't want to, or
> cannot, don't. I would suggest though that Senatores and higher
magistrates
> (Praetores, Consules, Censores) pay.
>
> One might argue: in a macronation, everyone pays tax. But in exchange, in
a
> macronation, you can get protection from your local police officers and
the
> fire department. If I get attacked in the city, I might be waiting
centuries
> for the first Aedilis to come to the rescue. Paying taxes = more power is
a
> 19th century system which led to bloody revolutions, and will lead to
> secessions here. My opinion.
>
> > 3.- My third point is about tax control. I know that,
> > in theory, taxes and such items fall under senatorial
> > control. I've also seen many propositions which state
> > that taxes should be determined by provincial
> > governors. I'd approve both things. But I'd like to
> > see just another, more "democratic" way of tax
> > control.
> > I know that's what Tribuni Plebis are for, but I'd
> > like to see an additional tax control system. Maybe
> > the Senate and Provincial Praetores should present
> > (and vote) the Expenditurae Rerum Publicarum to the
> > Comitia Tribuna, which could approve them (or not).
>
> I find this a very good idea. On a related note, I'm suddenly reminded of
> Iuvenalis: "but who is to guard the guards themselves?"
>
> Valete bene,
> Draco
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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