Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Voting Ends Soon
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Mon, 9 Apr 2001 21:06:45 -0400

Salve: I don't believe that it would be proper at this time to release
such information dealing with the election. I will consult with some other
magistrates about issuing such data. IMHO I think it may be released after
the election if so desired.
Vale, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, ... Rogator
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marcos Boehme" <marminius@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Voting Ends Soon

> Salve
>
> Just a question...
> How many plebeians voted so far?
>
> Marcus Arminius Maior
> Aedilis Plebis
>
> --- "A. Cato" <a.cato@--------> escreveu: >
> Salve: I would like to remind all
> > Plebeians that voting ends at 1 P.M., official Nova
> > Roman time, III ante diem, Idus Apriles, (April 11).
> > I urge all eligible voters to exercise their
> > franchise during this election. It only takes a few
> > moments to go to the Cista and vote. The Cista is at
> >
> >
> http://www.novaroma.org/cursus_honorum/voting/index.html
> > . Please take a moment to go and vote now.
> > Vale: ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, ...
> > Rogator
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Regarding Edicta
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 02:20:16 -0000

Salvete Omnes:

I wish to make a suggestion with regard to the promulgation of
Censoral, Praetoral, Consular edicta which are potential lexes. If I
am talking silliness, please feel free to correct me.

Is there a possibility that regulation could be set to shorten the
length of time between when a potential lex is promulgated and when
it goes to comitia? What I am thinking is, an edictum is promulgated,
so within six months it must go to comitia.

Here is my rationale: I will use the Censorial Name Change Edictum as
an example. It is a year to the month since this legislation was
first introduced. And, we are rehashing the same discussions we had a
year ago regarding its merit and nature. This edictum (why I use it
as an example) is of a sensitive nature to some people and emotions
have been greatly expended on its debate. This scenerio is being
repeated. If it had have gone to comitia sooner, there would be no
need for another heated exchange among citizens, and no need for the
emotional stress of people awaiting its final outcomes. To me, even
if a lex is voted in by the people which I may not totally favour,
atleast I know where I stand with regard to what is actually made law.

Such repeat performances of heated debates do not serve in our best
interests, in my opinion; they do not serve to build a stong sense of
community. They leave us rehashing things which should have been "put
to bed" sooner.

We could apply the same example to any potential lex, it is just that
some legislations are more sensitive than others.

Should the Consuls, in a given year, be too busy to call the Comitia
to order, due to personal reasons or a busy NR agenda, could be
Praetors not call the Comitia to deal with the voting on such matters,
or where applicable, the Tribunes?

Just some thoughts......

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia
Propraetrix Pro tempore
Canada Orientalis

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Regarding Edicta
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:32:23 -0700

Ave Pompeia Cornelia and citizens of Nova Roma,

I think this is a good suggestion. However, many edicts that are published
are never considered to ever go as far as to become a Lex voted on by the
People. Technically all Edicts have the potential to be presented to the
Comitia. Therefore to decide which ones will actually go to the final step
of being voted by the People might be a long time in coming. I think that
if the issue is going to be rehashed like our Noble Consul has brought this
issue back up for discussion, we should then hopefully see it brought to a
Comitia within a feasible timeframe. I hope our Noble Consul Germanicus
will state when he will summon the Comitia to vote on these and any other
issue.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

on 4/9/01 7:20 PM, trog99@-------- at trog99@-------- wrote:
Salvete Omnes:

I wish to make a suggestion with regard to the promulgation of
Censoral, Praetoral, Consular edicta which are potential lexes. If I
am talking silliness, please feel free to correct me.

Is there a possibility that regulation could be set to shorten the
length of time between when a potential lex is promulgated and when
it goes to comitia? What I am thinking is, an edictum is promulgated,
so within six months it must go to comitia.

Here is my rationale: I will use the Censorial Name Change Edictum as
an example. It is a year to the month since this legislation was
first introduced. And, we are rehashing the same discussions we had a
year ago regarding its merit and nature. This edictum (why I use it
as an example) is of a sensitive nature to some people and emotions
have been greatly expended on its debate. This scenerio is being
repeated. If it had have gone to comitia sooner, there would be no
need for another heated exchange among citizens, and no need for the
emotional stress of people awaiting its final outcomes. To me, even
if a lex is voted in by the people which I may not totally favour,
atleast I know where I stand with regard to what is actually made law.

Such repeat performances of heated debates do not serve in our best
interests, in my opinion; they do not serve to build a stong sense of
community. They leave us rehashing things which should have been "put
to bed" sooner.

We could apply the same example to any potential lex, it is just that
some legislations are more sensitive than others.

Should the Consuls, in a given year, be too busy to call the Comitia
to order, due to personal reasons or a busy NR agenda, could be
Praetors not call the Comitia to deal with the voting on such matters,
or where applicable, the Tribunes?

Just some thoughts......

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia
Propraetrix Pro tempore
Canada Orientalis

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Subject:	[novaroma] Clients and Patrons
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 02:40:19 -0000

Salvete Omnes:

I have been reading the recent discussions regarding client/patron
relationships with interest.

Many have discussed the historical existance and popularity of such
relationships, and have listed its positive aspects, that it is a
person's choice to enter such a relationship (I don't dispute that),
that it is a preceptorship of sorts, to learn the fundamentals of
Romanitas and Roman politics. Some have presented equal arguments
against it.

My question is, and I am sure it is a sensitive one, but one I must
nonetheless ask, is: Of all the persons who posted in favour of such
a client/patron relationship, not one person said "For example: I am
so and so's client. He has really helped me out, and I do appreciate
everything he (or she?) has done for me." I know there are clients
out there. If I knew nothing else, I can say this on the basis that
one magistrate posted alluding to the fact that he has clients. Fine.
But, why the clandestine nature of the relationship? If you believe
it to be a time-honoured virtuous institution, then why not simply
feel at ease to say that you are the client of someone else?

Just wondering.........

Pompeia Cornelia

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Subject:	[novaroma] The Festival
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 02:42:09 -0000

Salvete Omnes:

I am working on a short satire for the upcoming Festival hosted by the
Plebian Aediles and Sodalitas Musarum.

What are other folks working on?

Bene valete,
Pompeia Cornelia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Festival
From:	"Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:51:59 +1200

Salvete Pompeia Cornelia et omnes!

I too am working on a Satire, which seems to get longer and longer... You know I tried to write something else but it just came out Satire :-)
I am wondering whether Satire will be judged under Comedy? I hope this allows for 'black' Comedy as well.

So, what are other folks working on?

Valete omnes!
Domna Claudia Auspicata
----- Original Message -----
From: trog99@--------
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 2:42 PM
Subject: [novaroma] The Festival

Salvete Omnes:

I am working on a short satire for the upcoming Festival hosted by the
Plebian Aediles and Sodalitas Musarum.

What are other folks working on?

Bene valete,
Pompeia Cornelia


Subject:	[novaroma] Excuse me...
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 05:03:13 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Lucius Marius Peregrinus scripsit:

Subject: Excuse me...

Salvete omnes...

I shall have a little to say about the 'dual-citizenship' defense of
the present name-change edict in a later post. However, as much as I
hope to keep debate on the edict focussed on its merits (and those of
my alternative proposal, if any), I do not think I can venture much
further into said debate until our senior Censor and I get something
cleared up:

Sulla scripsit:
> I have to disagree with Lucius Sergius. Given the fact that this
> issue has come up more than once, by Lucia Maria.

Censor Sulla:
According to both the wording of the edict and your own (very many)
reassurances to me last spring and summer, the terms of the edict do
not affect any alias, chat handle, or e-mail handle a Citizen cares
to adopt. I have been told repeatedly that, whatever my name might
be on the records, I have the right to be addressed in day-to-day
transactions however I please. It is only in an official context--
such as my Governor's appointment of me to the Legateship of my
Regio--that my officially-recorded Roman name *must* be used.

That being said (over and over)...I object to your referring to me by
the feminine version of my name. It is both patently offensive to me
(as you have been aware for years) and completely unnecessary (as no
'official business' or oath is involved).

I am willing to debate any aspect of the name-change edict with you
or anyone else on its merits--but not if you fail to show myself and
other Citizens the bit of respect we expect, and demand, from our
Magistrates. This goes double if a tax measure is enacted; and the
most highly-placed Magistrates ought to be leading the way for all
the rest.

I appreciate your time and attention to this issue in future.

In fides,

-- L Marius Peregrinus
Legatus, Provinciae America Austroccidentalis
Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, Historical Re-Creationist
and Citizen of Rome

____________________________
.

The person who has the most right to speak about this has spoken - I
shall merely affirm, having followed this whole issue closely as it
has developed through the months, that Censor Sulla really did
promise what Marius says he did. Repeatedly. If there is any deficit
of Veritas in these matters, it is easy to see one place where it is
- but we might also consider the Veritas deficit in the refusal to
admit that social gender is the aspect of sexual identity that is
really important in interpersonal relations on the Internet (and
indeed in everyday life for all except those contemplating sexual
eintercourse).

I also note the aptness of Marius' comments on taxation - all of us
who have been around for a few months and paying attention know that
the Censor's office is one place that has its eye on some of the
prospective tax money from our pockets (quite justifiably so).
Functionaries might indeed be expected to be more respectful of the
dignitas of the citizens whom they are *serving*. The Senior Censor
doubtless would not wish to be addressed as "Lucia Cornelia Sulla
Felix" just because someone else has a strange notion of sexual
attribution which he insists on applying to others against their
will. Our elected servants of the People should indeed show more
courtesy, sensitivity, and tolerance - otherwise, why would they
expect to receive respect from the People in turn?

And certainly I would welcome an alternative the the present Gender
(Name Change) Edictum... but I shall discuss that elsewhere.

Valete!

_________________________________________________
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, Aedilis Plebeius Novae Romae
Amicus Dignitatis; Scriba Censorius
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Moderator Indicis protoprovincialis NR_Venediae
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
____________________________________________________
Memento Idus Martias - non omnino bene Respublica se habet.
(Remember the Ides of March - it is not all well with the Republic.)
____________________________________________________

All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph in the world is for
enough good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
___________________________________________________

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Festival
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 03:26:26 -0000

Salve Domna:

Well, between the two of us, we should get a few laughs out of the republic,
no?

Vale,
Pompeia

>From: "Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: <novaroma@-------->
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] The Festival
>Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:51:59 +1200
>
>Salvete Pompeia Cornelia et omnes!
>
>I too am working on a Satire, which seems to get longer and longer... You
>know I tried to write something else but it just came out Satire :-)
>I am wondering whether Satire will be judged under Comedy? I hope this
>allows for 'black' Comedy as well.
>
>So, what are other folks working on?
>
>Valete omnes!
>Domna Claudia Auspicata
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: trog99@--------
> To: novaroma@--------
> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 2:42 PM
> Subject: [novaroma] The Festival
>
>
> Salvete Omnes:
>
> I am working on a short satire for the upcoming Festival hosted by the
> Plebian Aediles and Sodalitas Musarum.
>
> What are other folks working on?
>
> Bene valete,
> Pompeia Cornelia
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Excuse me---No excuse
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Mon, 9 Apr 2001 23:29:46 EDT

Lucia Maria Peregrina and Apollonius Formosanus,

Please show us the law which requires citizens to address a woman as if she
were a man.

And Draco, if you are reading this, this ludicrous attempt to shove
"politically correct" rubbish down the throats of the rest of us is a perfect
example of social engineering.

Gaius Cassius Nerva

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Festival
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:35:35 -0700

Ave,

I am sure both of your works will be absolutely wonderful, I cant wait to
read them!

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

on 4/9/01 8:26 PM, Pompeia Cornelia at scriba_forum@-------- wrote:

> Salve Domna:
>
> Well, between the two of us, we should get a few laughs out of the republic,
> no?
>
> Vale,
> Pompeia
>
>
>> From: "Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@-------->
>> Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>> To: <novaroma@-------->
>> Subject: Re: [novaroma] The Festival
>> Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:51:59 +1200
>>
>> Salvete Pompeia Cornelia et omnes!
>>
>> I too am working on a Satire, which seems to get longer and longer... You
>> know I tried to write something else but it just came out Satire :-)
>> I am wondering whether Satire will be judged under Comedy? I hope this
>> allows for 'black' Comedy as well.
>>
>> So, what are other folks working on?
>>
>> Valete omnes!
>> Domna Claudia Auspicata
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: trog99@--------
>> To: novaroma@--------
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 2:42 PM
>> Subject: [novaroma] The Festival
>>
>>
>> Salvete Omnes:
>>
>> I am working on a short satire for the upcoming Festival hosted by the
>> Plebian Aediles and Sodalitas Musarum.
>>
>> What are other folks working on?
>>
>> Bene valete,
>> Pompeia Cornelia
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
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Subject:	[novaroma] Call for Legati
From:	V_Praetoria@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 03:36:24 -0000

Salvette,
Tonight I am opening the door to all cives interested in the position
of Legatus in the following states:
1)Utah
2)Arizona
3)Texas
4)Oklahoma

All interested individuals need to respond to me. Include in that
correspondance what experience you have, and what you would like to
accomplish.

Pontius Sejanus Marius
Propraetor, America Austroccidentalis

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Old Business I: Name Change Edict
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Mon, 9 Apr 2001 23:49:33 EDT

On 4/9/01 12:49 PM Lucius Mauricius Procopious (procopious@--------)
wrote:

>Salvete Omnes,
>
>Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus wrote:
>OUR GOVERNMENT HAS NO BUSINESS IN OUR PANTS.
>
>Respondeo: What about Veritas? Am I to understand those who dislike the
>gender edict don't think they need to be honest with their Micronational
>government. In that case would the Censors please change my address to 1400
>Pennsylvania Ave. :) That's where I want to live, intend to live some day.
>It's not where I really live, but reality doesn't seem to matter if it
>infringes on my personal right to free speech. Wait a minute! Isn't that
>right to free speech something American. Now don't get me wrong, I care for
>my Macronation. But it's not perfect. In my opinion free speech is a red
>herring.
No, Luicius Mauricius, it is not a red herring but a "Straw Man" -- it
was almost artful the way you tried to slip around and change the topic
to one of "veritas" and then "free speech" so that you could ramble on
about that. Of course neither has anything whatsoever to do with the
Edict on Changing Names, but why let that stop you?

> We here in the U.S. and some other countries may be able to say
>what ever we wish. However, our women are in jeopardy of losing the right to
>decide what happens to their own bodies,
And when, pray tell, has anyone anywhere ever had the "right to decide
what happens to their own bodies?" In both of the macronations to which I
belong (the United States and Australia), what I or any other citizen may
do with our bodies is subject to tight government regulation and always
has been. I'm sure it is the same wherever you are - try doing something
officially unapproved with your body and see where you wind up. Such
fantasies you people live by!

>police departments "profile" racial
>minorities and have often violently attacked them,
What, please, is the relevance of this?

>we have (I think) the
>highest rate of incarceration per capita in the industrial world,
What, please, is the relevance of this?

>the world
>laughed at us when our current Presidents brother stole the election for
>him,
What, please, is the relevance of this?

>and you can give your life in protection of your country as long as you
>keep your sexuality to yourself if it is different than the norm.
And this IS really in line with the regime that the Name Changing Edict
is designed to impose upon us.

>In Nova Roma our lawmakers have few tools and little enough time. Therefore,
>they have decided to allow a cives macronation to determine gender. In other
>words they have decided to stay out of it.
No, if they were going to stay out of it, we would never have had this
Edict to regulate how one civis will be allowed to refer to their own
body!

>So legally you get the same
>protection here as in your macronation.
Which is, essentially, none at all unless you are valued by the powerful.

>What is not written down is how you
>will be treated as an individual choosing to live an alternative lifestyle.
>In my Province you may have to register under the gender our macronation
>sees you as being, but know this; you are protected. If your Gens and your
>amici can't protect you, your Propraetor will do so. Let it be known that
>while the name change edictum will be honored in America Boreoccidentalis,
>discrimination of any stripe will be dealt with harshly and immediately by
>my administration as long as it lasts. This isn't an us versus them issue.
>It's merely a question of HOW we choose to support the rights and lifestyle
>choices of our cives.
I really don't think this rambling post contributes much to the
discussion, other than to reveal that for whatever vague reason you may
be hiding, you will not stand up against an shameful act of government.
You'll make a good, obedient little civis for them, Lucius Mauricius. I'm
certain you will be appreciated and appropriately rewarded.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
>
>Next year in the Forum!
>
>Lucius Mauricius Procopious
>Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
>(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Excuse me...
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Mon, 9 Apr 2001 23:49:35 EDT

Salve Cornelius

Sorry but I seem to have overlooked the Edict that put you in charge of
determining how we should sign our posts to this list. Could you do me
the kindness of pointing it out to me so that I can reassure myself that
you're not developing grandiose delusions? After all, we already have
quite enough of those here!

Presumeably it is the same Edict that empowered you to decide which
issues are "dead" and which "live." How it slipped past me I can't begin
to imagine.

In the interim, until you can provide me with some reference to the
source of your new-found imperium, I and everyone else here will continue
to refer to ourselves by whatever name we please.

[Where ARE these people coming from???]

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

On 4/9/01 3:29 PM Nick R. Ramos Jr. (nramos@--------) wrote:

>Salvete Peregrinus!
>
>Normally, I do not get into this type of discussion, but there's a
>slight point of information - This happens to be an official list of
>Nova Roma, and we ALL post here by our legal names within Nova Roma.
>That being said - before diatribes are launched - please note how I
>addressed you.
>
>Cives, with all due respect, the debate on the edicta in this thread
>has not changed one iota from last year. Let us agree to disagree on
>this one, nonne? I, for one, am here for the historical aspects and
>for the rebuilding of the political and religious instituions of the
>Res Publica. I do not care one whit for political correctness or the
>application of modern political and social thought to construct
>utopic
>versions of what we THINK is the correct version of the world.
>
>The gender edicta issue is a dead horse. The resignation issue is a
>live one, and here are my 2 sestercii on the subject:
>
>1. We join Nova Roma VOLUNTARILY - we are not forced by Ius sole or
>Ius sanguini to become citizens. We are a MICRONATION - not a club or
>
>roleplaying game. When we become magistrates, we are COMMITTING
>ourselves to do a job for the Res Publica and our fellow cives.
>
>2. When we RESIGN our citizenship, we do so VOLUNTARILY. What is
>being
>said is clear - I do not want to be a part of this nation any longer.
>If you no longer wish to have a part of us, why are the rest of
>required to greet you with tears in our eyes, and entreaties for your
>forgiveness when you decide to come back? You left - it is YOUR duty
>to mend what you broke, not mine.
>
>We all have lives (or so I hope). We may at times be forced to deal
>with the intimate at the expense of the public lives we lead. As
>others have pointed out, they have not left Nova Roma (and not
>especially after launching insults at those who remain) in a snit. If
>someone decides to leave simply because they do not agree with the
>goals of the rest of us, why is it required of us to give back all
>those things these folks cast away of their own free will? Why should
>we trust them again with magistracies, when they have already proven
>that they will not fulfill their jobs?
>
>Feel free to disagree with me - but do not try to force your point of
>view upon me. We can discuss this issue on or off the list, but if we
>do not come to a consensus, let us agree to disagree like gentlemen
>and continue on with building our Res Publica.
>
>Bene vale,
>
>Marius Cornelius Scipio
>

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Excuse me...
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:54:00 -0700

Ave,

Senator Lucius Sergius could you please be more careful who you are
addressing for you are responding to my Gens member, Marius Cornelius
Scipio. Not me.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

on 4/9/01 8:49 PM, LSergAust@-------- at LSergAust@-------- wrote:

>
> Salve Cornelius
>
> Sorry but I seem to have overlooked the Edict that put you in charge of
> determining how we should sign our posts to this list. Could you do me
> the kindness of pointing it out to me so that I can reassure myself that
> you're not developing grandiose delusions? After all, we already have
> quite enough of those here!
>
> Presumeably it is the same Edict that empowered you to decide which
> issues are "dead" and which "live." How it slipped past me I can't begin
> to imagine.
>
> In the interim, until you can provide me with some reference to the
> source of your new-found imperium, I and everyone else here will continue
> to refer to ourselves by whatever name we please.
>
> [Where ARE these people coming from???]
>
> L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
>
>
> On 4/9/01 3:29 PM Nick R. Ramos Jr. (nramos@--------) wrote:
>
>> Salvete Peregrinus!
>>
>> Normally, I do not get into this type of discussion, but there's a
>> slight point of information - This happens to be an official list of
>> Nova Roma, and we ALL post here by our legal names within Nova Roma.
>> That being said - before diatribes are launched - please note how I
>> addressed you.
>>
>> Cives, with all due respect, the debate on the edicta in this thread
>> has not changed one iota from last year. Let us agree to disagree on
>> this one, nonne? I, for one, am here for the historical aspects and
>> for the rebuilding of the political and religious instituions of the
>> Res Publica. I do not care one whit for political correctness or the
>> application of modern political and social thought to construct
>> utopic
>> versions of what we THINK is the correct version of the world.
>>
>> The gender edicta issue is a dead horse. The resignation issue is a
>> live one, and here are my 2 sestercii on the subject:
>>
>> 1. We join Nova Roma VOLUNTARILY - we are not forced by Ius sole or
>> Ius sanguini to become citizens. We are a MICRONATION - not a club or
>>
>> roleplaying game. When we become magistrates, we are COMMITTING
>> ourselves to do a job for the Res Publica and our fellow cives.
>>
>> 2. When we RESIGN our citizenship, we do so VOLUNTARILY. What is
>> being
>> said is clear - I do not want to be a part of this nation any longer.
>> If you no longer wish to have a part of us, why are the rest of
>> required to greet you with tears in our eyes, and entreaties for your
>> forgiveness when you decide to come back? You left - it is YOUR duty
>> to mend what you broke, not mine.
>>
>> We all have lives (or so I hope). We may at times be forced to deal
>> with the intimate at the expense of the public lives we lead. As
>> others have pointed out, they have not left Nova Roma (and not
>> especially after launching insults at those who remain) in a snit. If
>> someone decides to leave simply because they do not agree with the
>> goals of the rest of us, why is it required of us to give back all
>> those things these folks cast away of their own free will? Why should
>> we trust them again with magistracies, when they have already proven
>> that they will not fulfill their jobs?
>>
>> Feel free to disagree with me - but do not try to force your point of
>> view upon me. We can discuss this issue on or off the list, but if we
>> do not come to a consensus, let us agree to disagree like gentlemen
>> and continue on with building our Res Publica.
>>
>> Bene vale,
>>
>> Marius Cornelius Scipio
>>
>
>
> certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
>
> (You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The Festival
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:34:25 -0400

Salvete,

I am trying to get a video sent to me of a sword dance that I performed at
the Raleigh Ren Faire :) I don't know if it will get here in time. I also
am sending in a poem (a lament) .

Valete
Helena Galeria

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 1321
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:43:09 -0400

Salvete,

<<Nerva scripsit:
Please show us the law which requires citizens to address a woman as if she
were a man.>>

If I am reading the posts correctly, this has nothing to do with the law.
The law expects a person to use their legal name in legal contexts. How
they are addressed otherwise is a matter of personal tastes.

If someone wishes to use a certain name, has been promised that this will
happen, and makes it clear that using another is distasteful, then I feel it
to be very discourteous to ignore this person's wishes.

This list uses nicknames a lot, and there is no legal necessity to use
'registered' names. So I have to ask myself, why would someone deliberately
call someone else by a name that person finds abhorrent, for whatever
reason?

I know what my dear conservative Southern lady of a mother would say.
Rudeness remains rudeness, whatever the gloss.

Valete
Helena Galeria

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Excuse me...
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:48:43 EDT

Salve Lucius Cornelius

With apologies. I just can't help it that there are SO MANY of you! LOL

Also respectfully,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

On 4/10/01 10:54 AM L. Cornelius Sulla (alexious@--------) wrote:

>Ave,
>
>Senator Lucius Sergius could you please be more careful who you are
>addressing for you are responding to my Gens member, Marius Cornelius
>Scipio. Not me.
>
>Respectfully,
>
>Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>Censor
>

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Taxes Revisited
From:	Ira Adams <iadams@-------->
Date:	Mon, 9 Apr 2001 23:47:05 -0500

ROFL!!!! Good one, mate!

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
expatriate Queenslander

On 4/9/01 6:05 PM Mark A Bird (mark_a_bird@--------) wrote:

>I live in Australia, and having a Political system and Public Service
>based on the Westminster System, our Giovernment is free of corruption.
>
>Marcus Claudius Sentius
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Political gender ("The Unbearable Lightness of Nova Roma?")
From:	Ira Adams <iadams@-------->
Date:	Mon, 9 Apr 2001 23:47:07 -0500

Salvete Omnes!

With respect to the need for political correctness in regard to revealing
one's gender, I feel the need to confess that I discovered, this
Saturday, that according to YahooGroups I was female. Although I changed
that designation with the editor provided, I'm not certain I am in
compliance with our government's laws regarding documentation of my
genitalia. Should I send photos to Yahoo (I think they have a section for
that, don't they?) or to our Censores? Should they be notarized? (The
photos, that is - not the genitalia.)

Or, until this is clarified, should I just begin to sign myself....

Lucius/Lucia Sergius/Sergia Australicus/Australica Obstinatus/Obstinata

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Taxes Revisited
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:02:59 +1000

Salve

Ira - where are you now - and by the way - excuse my total ignorance being a
Victorian - what does ROFL stand for ???>>>>

Marcus Sentius Claudius

MSC - had better start the acronym as it seems all the Go !!!

-----Original Message-----
From: Ira Adams [mailto:iadams@--------]
Sent: Tuesday, 10 April 2001 2:47 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: RE: [novaroma] Taxes Revisited

ROFL!!!! Good one, mate!

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
expatriate Queenslander

On 4/9/01 6:05 PM Mark A Bird (mark_a_bird@--------) wrote:

>I live in Australia, and having a Political system and Public Service
>based on the Westminster System, our Giovernment is free of corruption.
>
>Marcus Claudius Sentius
>

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Taxes Revisited
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 01:20:33 EDT

Salve Marcus Sentius

ROFL is an InterNet abbreviation for the descriptive phrase "Rolling On
the Floor Laughing."

I currently reside slightly beyond the frontier of the civilized world,
in rural Mississippi, USA. I will most likely continue to reside here
until I am assured that my godson is well on his way to existing
successfully on his own, at which time I may return to Oz (unless the
natives here knock me off first, since my godson and my family here are
not the politically correct shade of brown).

I try to keep up with Oz politics, etc., online, so I was able to
appreciate the humor in your remark (it *was* meant as humor, wasn't it?).

Vale,

L/L S/S A/A O/O

On 4/10/01 12:02 AM Mark A Bird (mark_a_bird@--------) wrote:

>Salve
>
>Ira - where are you now - and by the way - excuse my total ignorance being a
>Victorian - what does ROFL stand for ???>>>>
>
>Marcus Sentius Claudius
>
>
>MSC - had better start the acronym as it seems all the Go !!!
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ira Adams [mailto:iadams@--------]
>Sent: Tuesday, 10 April 2001 2:47 Pm
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: RE: [novaroma] Taxes Revisited
>
>
>
>ROFL!!!! Good one, mate!
>
>L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
>expatriate Queenslander
>
>On 4/9/01 6:05 PM Mark A Bird (mark_a_bird@--------) wrote:
>
>>I live in Australia, and having a Political system and Public Service
>>based on the Westminster System, our Giovernment is free of corruption.
>>
>>Marcus Claudius Sentius
>>

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Politics - what else
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:38:44 +1000

Salve the person with fifteen names (L/L S/S A/A O/O)

I was serious, but I can understand your position being an ex Queenslander -
we have to be happy with our system though - we have easily the most stable
Government in the region - I mean look at the debacle in the US - we had an
email circulating around here that the Serbian President was going to send
in Peacekeeping troops in Florida etc., to keep the peace...

But Gosh - isn't this Nova a real reincarnation of ancient Rome - vicious
Politics to boot - exciting and interesting to be part of it - how long have
you being a citizen L/L S/S A/A O/O ???

Vale,

MSC

-----Original Message-----
From: LSergAust@-------- [mailto:LSergAust@--------]
Sent: Tuesday, 10 April 2001 3:21 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: RE: [novaroma] Taxes Revisited

Salve Marcus Sentius

ROFL is an InterNet abbreviation for the descriptive phrase "Rolling On
the Floor Laughing."

I currently reside slightly beyond the frontier of the civilized world,
in rural Mississippi, USA. I will most likely continue to reside here
until I am assured that my godson is well on his way to existing
successfully on his own, at which time I may return to Oz (unless the
natives here knock me off first, since my godson and my family here are
not the politically correct shade of brown).

I try to keep up with Oz politics, etc., online, so I was able to
appreciate the humor in your remark (it *was* meant as humor, wasn't it?).

Vale,

L/L S/S A/A O/O

On 4/10/01 12:02 AM Mark A Bird (mark_a_bird@--------) wrote:

>Salve
>
>Ira - where are you now - and by the way - excuse my total ignorance being
a
>Victorian - what does ROFL stand for ???>>>>
>
>Marcus Sentius Claudius
>
>
>MSC - had better start the acronym as it seems all the Go !!!
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ira Adams [mailto:iadams@--------]
>Sent: Tuesday, 10 April 2001 2:47 Pm
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: RE: [novaroma] Taxes Revisited
>
>
>
>ROFL!!!! Good one, mate!
>
>L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
>expatriate Queenslander
>
>On 4/9/01 6:05 PM Mark A Bird (mark_a_bird@--------) wrote:
>
>>I live in Australia, and having a Political system and Public Service
>>based on the Westminster System, our Giovernment is free of corruption.
>>
>>Marcus Claudius Sentius
>>

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Political gender ("The Unbearable Lightness of Nova Roma?")
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 9 Apr 2001 22:37:34 -0700

Salve Luci Sergi;

Yes, it is indeed that unfortunate that
Yahoo is not a nation.

If it were, we could all use the 'edit' function,
select our respective options and create
our own individual profile based on our
own personal preferences. Suddenly...poof
-our very own unencumbered utopias. How much
easier life would then be eh?

Bene vale,
-Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: Ira Adams [mailto:iadams@--------]
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 9:47 PM
To: Nova Roma
Subject: [novaroma] Political gender ("The Unbearable Lightness of Nova Roma?")

Salvete Omnes!

With respect to the need for political correctness in regard to revealing
one's gender, I feel the need to confess that I discovered, this
Saturday, that according to YahooGroups I was female.

<snipped>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Taxes Revisited
From:	gaiuscoriolanus@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 05:45:30 -0000

You are so lucky Sentius. Draco is not the only one who lives in
country with corupt government. There was pretty much coruptial
scandals in our government in last years and consequently I do not
trust in politicians.

Nova Roma is something else, but I can not get rid of this distrust
imediately.

Vale
Coriolanus

--- In novaroma@--------, "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@r...> wrote:
> I live in Australia, and having a Political system and Public
Service
> based on the Westminster System, our Giovernment is free of
corruption.
>
> Marcus Claudius Sentius
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: S. A--------onius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
> Sent: Monday, 9 April 2001 9:01 Pm
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Taxes Revisited
>
>
> Salve Marce Claudi,
>
> ((snipped))
>
> > The quotation "but who is to guard the guards themselves?" is
> offensive
> and
> > shows an attitude of distrust on the whole concept - we must trust
> those
> who
> > have been elected - how else can NOVA operate but through Trust
and
> loyalty
> > ...
>
> Iuvenalis would be honoured to receive the comment above from you.
>
> I don't know in what country you live, but where I live, the
government
> is
> filled with corrupt officials. Belgium is called "Italy of the
North"
> for a
> reason, and by nature I distrust politicans, and °certainly°
financial
> politicians, even those that control the actual financial
magistrates.
> Trust
> and loyalty does not equal naivity.
>
> Vale bene,
> Draco
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
**********************************************************************
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> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom
they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please
notify
> the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.
>
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
> for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
>
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Subject:	[novaroma] Latin Translation
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:45:12 +1000

Can someone tell me the Latin for a name of a person (i.e. we call this
person this name), just supplying the context ...>>>

Son Of White Sock

Thanks

-----Original Message-----
From: LSergAust@-------- [mailto:LSergAust@--------]
Sent: Tuesday, 10 April 2001 3:21 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: RE: [novaroma] Taxes Revisited

Salve Marcus Sentius

ROFL is an InterNet abbreviation for the descriptive phrase "Rolling On
the Floor Laughing."

I currently reside slightly beyond the frontier of the civilized world,
in rural Mississippi, USA. I will most likely continue to reside here
until I am assured that my godson is well on his way to existing
successfully on his own, at which time I may return to Oz (unless the
natives here knock me off first, since my godson and my family here are
not the politically correct shade of brown).

I try to keep up with Oz politics, etc., online, so I was able to
appreciate the humor in your remark (it *was* meant as humor, wasn't it?).

Vale,

L/L S/S A/A O/O

On 4/10/01 12:02 AM Mark A Bird (mark_a_bird@--------) wrote:

>Salve
>
>Ira - where are you now - and by the way - excuse my total ignorance being
a
>Victorian - what does ROFL stand for ???>>>>
>
>Marcus Sentius Claudius
>
>
>MSC - had better start the acronym as it seems all the Go !!!
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ira Adams [mailto:iadams@--------]
>Sent: Tuesday, 10 April 2001 2:47 Pm
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: RE: [novaroma] Taxes Revisited
>
>
>
>ROFL!!!! Good one, mate!
>
>L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
>expatriate Queenslander
>
>On 4/9/01 6:05 PM Mark A Bird (mark_a_bird@--------) wrote:
>
>>I live in Australia, and having a Political system and Public Service
>>based on the Westminster System, our Giovernment is free of corruption.
>>
>>Marcus Claudius Sentius
>>

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
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**********************************************************************

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Taxes Revisited
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:49:47 +1000

Salve

Where are you from Coriolanus - ...???

I am sure not all Australian's will agree with my view - but they only need
to travel to see what we have here - our (the Politicians) may be
incompetent - but rarely corrupt - the biggest scandal we have had was over
a miss use of a corporate telephone card by an MP - hardly anything to get
overly excited about...

Vale

MSC

-----Original Message-----
From: gaiuscoriolanus@-------- [mailto:gaiuscoriolanus@--------]
Sent: Tuesday, 10 April 2001 3:46 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Taxes Revisited

You are so lucky Sentius. Draco is not the only one who lives in
country with corupt government. There was pretty much coruptial
scandals in our government in last years and consequently I do not
trust in politicians.

Nova Roma is something else, but I can not get rid of this distrust
imediately.

Vale
Coriolanus

--- In novaroma@--------, "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@r...> wrote:
> I live in Australia, and having a Political system and Public
Service
> based on the Westminster System, our Giovernment is free of
corruption.
>
> Marcus Claudius Sentius
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: S. A--------onius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
> Sent: Monday, 9 April 2001 9:01 Pm
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Taxes Revisited
>
>
> Salve Marce Claudi,
>
> ((snipped))
>
> > The quotation "but who is to guard the guards themselves?" is
> offensive
> and
> > shows an attitude of distrust on the whole concept - we must trust
> those
> who
> > have been elected - how else can NOVA operate but through Trust
and
> loyalty
> > ...
>
> Iuvenalis would be honoured to receive the comment above from you.
>
> I don't know in what country you live, but where I live, the
government
> is
> filled with corrupt officials. Belgium is called "Italy of the
North"
> for a
> reason, and by nature I distrust politicans, and °certainly°
financial
> politicians, even those that control the actual financial
magistrates.
> Trust
> and loyalty does not equal naivity.
>
> Vale bene,
> Draco
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
**********************************************************************
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom
they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please
notify
> the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.
>
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
> for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
>
**********************************************************************

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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] FW: Politics - what else
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:50:39 +1000


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Taxes Revisited
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 9 Apr 2001 22:54:37 -0700

Hmmm...depends -how high were the charges
on the alleged phone card :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark A Bird [mailto:mark_a_bird@--------]
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 10:50 PM
To: 'novaroma@--------'
Subject: RE: [novaroma] Re: Taxes Revisited

Salve

Where are you from Coriolanus - ...???

I am sure not all Australian's will agree with my view - but they only need
to travel to see what we have here - our (the Politicians) may be
incompetent - but rarely corrupt - the biggest scandal we have had was over
a miss use of a corporate telephone card by an MP - hardly anything to get
overly excited about...

Vale

MSC

-----Original Message-----
<snipped>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Festival
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 9 Apr 2001 22:58:25 -0700

Salvete Omnes,

I'll be submitting a photo of my "Geni Patris Familiaris" that I made out of
clay.

Who else, what else?

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason
for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] The Festival

> Salvete Pompeia Cornelia et omnes!
>
> I too am working on a Satire, which seems to get longer and longer... You
know I tried to write something else but it just came out Satire :-)
> I am wondering whether Satire will be judged under Comedy? I hope this
allows for 'black' Comedy as well.
>
> So, what are other folks working on?
>
> Valete omnes!
> Domna Claudia Auspicata
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: trog99@--------
> To: novaroma@--------
> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 2:42 PM
> Subject: [novaroma] The Festival
>
>
> Salvete Omnes:
>
> I am working on a short satire for the upcoming Festival hosted by the
> Plebian Aediles and Sodalitas Musarum.
>
> What are other folks working on?
>
> Bene valete,
> Pompeia Cornelia
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Provincia Thule website
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 9 Apr 2001 22:59:35 -0700

Salve Propraetor Fabi et Vibi Minuci
Falco;

The site is looking good and the structure is
coming along quite nicely!

My only small suggestion would be to include
HTML text of the Edicta in addition to the
the PDF. PDF though is really nice to have as
well for downloading purposes so both is even
better!

Great job!

Bene vale,
Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: Christer Edling [mailto:tjalens.h@--------]
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 1:07 PM
To: Kristoffer From
Cc: ThuleNovaRoma@--------; novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Provincia Thule website

Salve Omnes

Here is the Provincia Thule website! It is the beginning, later You will
find links to our four Regiones. I thank the Honorable Consilarius and
Praeco Aranei Thules Titus Octavius Pius for his good, fast and hard work.
Now the Praeco Aranei Thules can link to the Regio websites as soon as the
Legati Regiones Thules have created their own Regio websites. Expect to see
a few more things on the website within a couple of weeks!

Anyone who has ideas about what should be on our website is encouraged to
write to our Praeco Aranei Thules to make their suggetions known and even
better to help him do these good things. ;-)

The Thule website: http://www.acc.umu.se/~kerish/novaroma/index.html

Futher I want to thank the protocivis my amicus Honorable Vibius Minucius
Falco for his help with the map on the Thule website and his dedicated job
for me as his Propraetor.

Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
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MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Taxes Revisited
From:	gaiuscoriolanus@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 06:05:09 -0000

I'm form Slovak republic. The biggest scandals we have in last two
years was, that minister of defense defrauded several milions and
invested it to his own residence, our state telecomunication
corporation was sold about 300 000 000$ underpay, state still delays
states obligation payout (they had to by payed out a three years
ago), etc.

I guess that's are serious reasons to distrust.

Vale
Coriolanus

--- In novaroma@--------, Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@r...> wrote:
> Salve
>
> Where are you from Coriolanus - ...???
>
> I am sure not all Australian's will agree with my view - but they
only need
> to travel to see what we have here - our (the Politicians) may be
> incompetent - but rarely corrupt - the biggest scandal we have had
was over
> a miss use of a corporate telephone card by an MP - hardly anything
to get
> overly excited about...
>
> Vale
>
> MSC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gaiuscoriolanus@-------- [mailto:gaiuscoriolanus@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, 10 April 2001 3:46 Pm
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: Taxes Revisited
>
>
>
> You are so lucky Sentius. Draco is not the only one who lives in
> country with corupt government. There was pretty much coruptial
> scandals in our government in last years and consequently I do not
> trust in politicians.
>
> Nova Roma is something else, but I can not get rid of this distrust
> imediately.
>
>
> Vale
> Coriolanus
>
>
>
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@r...> wrote:
> > I live in Australia, and having a Political system and Public
> Service
> > based on the Westminster System, our Giovernment is free of
> corruption.
> >
> > Marcus Claudius Sentius
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: S. A--------onius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
> > Sent: Monday, 9 April 2001 9:01 Pm
> > To: novaroma@--------
> > Subject: Re: [novaroma] Taxes Revisited
> >
> >
> > Salve Marce Claudi,
> >
> > ((snipped))
> >
> > > The quotation "but who is to guard the guards themselves?" is
> > offensive
> > and
> > > shows an attitude of distrust on the whole concept - we must
trust
> > those
> > who
> > > have been elected - how else can NOVA operate but through Trust
> and
> > loyalty
> > > ...
> >
> > Iuvenalis would be honoured to receive the comment above from you.
> >
> > I don't know in what country you live, but where I live, the
> government
> > is
> > filled with corrupt officials. Belgium is called "Italy of the
> North"
> > for a
> > reason, and by nature I distrust politicans, and °certainly°
> financial
> > politicians, even those that control the actual financial
> magistrates.
> > Trust
> > and loyalty does not equal naivity.
> >
> > Vale bene,
> > Draco
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
**********************************************************************
> > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom
> they
> > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please
> notify
> > the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.
> >
> > This footnote also confirms that this email message has been
scanned
> > for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
> >
>
**********************************************************************
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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Subject:	[novaroma] NR in Germany
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 02:05:18 EDT

Do any Nova Romans live in the area of Grafenwoehr? I will be leaving for
there this Saturday and will be there for just under three weeks. Please
email me.

Gaius Cassius Nerva

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Taxes Revisited
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:10:23 +1000

My God Coriolanus - the telephone scandal was for about 30K, which the MP
paid back

Yes - I know where you are coming from on this one - my naivety I guess...

Vale

MSC

-----Original Message-----
From: gaiuscoriolanus@-------- [mailto:gaiuscoriolanus@--------]
Sent: Tuesday, 10 April 2001 4:05 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Taxes Revisited

I'm form Slovak republic. The biggest scandals we have in last two
years was, that minister of defense defrauded several milions and
invested it to his own residence, our state telecomunication
corporation was sold about 300 000 000$ underpay, state still delays
states obligation payout (they had to by payed out a three years
ago), etc.

I guess that's are serious reasons to distrust.

Vale
Coriolanus

--- In novaroma@--------, Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@r...> wrote:
> Salve
>
> Where are you from Coriolanus - ...???
>
> I am sure not all Australian's will agree with my view - but they
only need
> to travel to see what we have here - our (the Politicians) may be
> incompetent - but rarely corrupt - the biggest scandal we have had
was over
> a miss use of a corporate telephone card by an MP - hardly anything
to get
> overly excited about...
>
> Vale
>
> MSC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gaiuscoriolanus@-------- [mailto:gaiuscoriolanus@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, 10 April 2001 3:46 Pm
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: Taxes Revisited
>
>
>
> You are so lucky Sentius. Draco is not the only one who lives in
> country with corupt government. There was pretty much coruptial
> scandals in our government in last years and consequently I do not
> trust in politicians.
>
> Nova Roma is something else, but I can not get rid of this distrust
> imediately.
>
>
> Vale
> Coriolanus
>
>
>
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@r...> wrote:
> > I live in Australia, and having a Political system and Public
> Service
> > based on the Westminster System, our Giovernment is free of
> corruption.
> >
> > Marcus Claudius Sentius
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: S. A--------onius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
> > Sent: Monday, 9 April 2001 9:01 Pm
> > To: novaroma@--------
> > Subject: Re: [novaroma] Taxes Revisited
> >
> >
> > Salve Marce Claudi,
> >
> > ((snipped))
> >
> > > The quotation "but who is to guard the guards themselves?" is
> > offensive
> > and
> > > shows an attitude of distrust on the whole concept - we must
trust
> > those
> > who
> > > have been elected - how else can NOVA operate but through Trust
> and
> > loyalty
> > > ...
> >
> > Iuvenalis would be honoured to receive the comment above from you.
> >
> > I don't know in what country you live, but where I live, the
> government
> > is
> > filled with corrupt officials. Belgium is called "Italy of the
> North"
> > for a
> > reason, and by nature I distrust politicans, and °certainly°
> financial
> > politicians, even those that control the actual financial
> magistrates.
> > Trust
> > and loyalty does not equal naivity.
> >
> > Vale bene,
> > Draco
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
**********************************************************************
> > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom
> they
> > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please
> notify
> > the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.
> >
> > This footnote also confirms that this email message has been
scanned
> > for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
> >
>
**********************************************************************
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Old Business I: Name Change Edict
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 9 Apr 2001 23:23:39 -0700

Salvete Omnes,

It seems I have irritated some of you with my comments. I can only hope that
to have inspired such anger I was misunderstood in what I was trying to say.
A friend here in Nova Roma was upset by what I said as were a few of you
who's friendship may be in question. I must have managed to step on my
tongue. When I try to be clear I often make too many examples, and present
lengthy arguments that may be hard to follow. My ability to "ramble " was
pointed out most concisely by Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus. You may
be correct about my rambling. Sometimes in the interest of clarity too many
words can muddy the waters more than too few. I am most grateful for the
encouragement you offered none the less:

You'll make a good, obedient little civis for them, Lucius Mauricius. I'm
> certain you will be appreciated and appropriately rewarded.

I apologize for my part in fanning the flames of debate. I'll listen to the
good counsel of Marcus and Lucius Cornelius and let this issue be.

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason
for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
----- Original Message -----
From: <LSergAust@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Old Business I: Name Change Edict

>
> On 4/9/01 12:49 PM Lucius Mauricius Procopious (procopious@--------)
> wrote:
>
> >Salvete Omnes,
> >
> >Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus wrote:
> >OUR GOVERNMENT HAS NO BUSINESS IN OUR PANTS.
> >
> >Respondeo: What about Veritas? Am I to understand those who dislike the
> >gender edict don't think they need to be honest with their Micronational
> >government. In that case would the Censors please change my address to
1400
> >Pennsylvania Ave. :) That's where I want to live, intend to live some
day.
> >It's not where I really live, but reality doesn't seem to matter if it
> >infringes on my personal right to free speech. Wait a minute! Isn't that
> >right to free speech something American. Now don't get me wrong, I care
for
> >my Macronation. But it's not perfect. In my opinion free speech is a red
> >herring.
> No, Luicius Mauricius, it is not a red herring but a "Straw Man" -- it
> was almost artful the way you tried to slip around and change the topic
> to one of "veritas" and then "free speech" so that you could ramble on
> about that. Of course neither has anything whatsoever to do with the
> Edict on Changing Names, but why let that stop you?
>
> > We here in the U.S. and some other countries may be able to say
> >what ever we wish. However, our women are in jeopardy of losing the right
to
> >decide what happens to their own bodies,
> And when, pray tell, has anyone anywhere ever had the "right to decide
> what happens to their own bodies?" In both of the macronations to which I
> belong (the United States and Australia), what I or any other citizen may
> do with our bodies is subject to tight government regulation and always
> has been. I'm sure it is the same wherever you are - try doing something
> officially unapproved with your body and see where you wind up. Such
> fantasies you people live by!
>
> >police departments "profile" racial
> >minorities and have often violently attacked them,
> What, please, is the relevance of this?
>
> >we have (I think) the
> >highest rate of incarceration per capita in the industrial world,
> What, please, is the relevance of this?
>
> >the world
> >laughed at us when our current Presidents brother stole the election for
> >him,
> What, please, is the relevance of this?
>
> >and you can give your life in protection of your country as long as you
> >keep your sexuality to yourself if it is different than the norm.
> And this IS really in line with the regime that the Name Changing Edict
> is designed to impose upon us.
>
> >In Nova Roma our lawmakers have few tools and little enough time.
Therefore,
> >they have decided to allow a cives macronation to determine gender. In
other
> >words they have decided to stay out of it.
> No, if they were going to stay out of it, we would never have had this
> Edict to regulate how one civis will be allowed to refer to their own
> body!
>
> >So legally you get the same
> >protection here as in your macronation.
> Which is, essentially, none at all unless you are valued by the powerful.
>
> >What is not written down is how you
> >will be treated as an individual choosing to live an alternative
lifestyle.
> >In my Province you may have to register under the gender our macronation
> >sees you as being, but know this; you are protected. If your Gens and
your
> >amici can't protect you, your Propraetor will do so. Let it be known that
> >while the name change edictum will be honored in America
Boreoccidentalis,
> >discrimination of any stripe will be dealt with harshly and immediately
by
> >my administration as long as it lasts. This isn't an us versus them
issue.
> >It's merely a question of HOW we choose to support the rights and
lifestyle
> >choices of our cives.
> I really don't think this rambling post contributes much to the
> discussion, other than to reveal that for whatever vague reason you may
> be hiding, you will not stand up against an shameful act of government.
> You'll make a good, obedient little civis for them, Lucius Mauricius. I'm
> certain you will be appreciated and appropriately rewarded.
>
> Vale,
>
> L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
> >
> >Next year in the Forum!
> >
> >Lucius Mauricius Procopious
> >Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
> >(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
>
>
> certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
>
> (You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Festival
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 01:24:03 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes,

I am curently working on a text for the department of
Clio, about the institutions in local communities
(municipa and coloniae) in the Roman empire (1st-3rd
century AD).

Who else?

Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix

=====
"De te autem, Catilina, cum quiescunt, probant; cum patiuntur, decernunt; cum tacent, clamant." (M. Tullius Cicero: In Catilinam I, 20)

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] A Boy Named Sue
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:06:36 -0000

Salvete,

The subect of this post is from a song by Johnny Cash that was a hit
about 30 years ago ;o).

My Macronation (USA) has NO national laws regarding a person's legal
gender or name. These matters are left up to the states. I am a
resident of the state of Georgia, which is one of the most
conservative areas of the United States. The only law we have
pertaining to legal gender is a homophobic law prohibiting "same-sex"
marriaiges. We have no laws requiring that a name match a person's
gender, nor am I aware of any laws in any state regarding this. (Hence
the subject line). I remember the 1960's and recall some celebraties
of that era giving thier children some rather creative names (Moon
Unit Zappa for example) that matched no gender.

The laws on name changes in my State are clear. I can go petition the
court for ANY name I wish to use. If I want to change my Macronational
name from John to Jane that is perfectally legal, as it would be legal
for me to become Lucius Sicinius Drusus in my Macronation. Just after
the movie "Star Wars" was released there was a case where someone
asked to have his name leagaly changed to "Luke Skywalker" and that
was approved.

The only real restrictions are that the court looks closely at
requests where a legal gauradian is changing the name of a minor child
(to protect the intrests of the child) and that you can't change your
name for the purpose of commiting fraud.

All I have to be to leagaly change my name in my macronation is file a
pettion, pay a court fee, and I become whomever I please. If a State
with over 7 million citizens can get by with a system like this I see
no reason why a micronation with fewer than a thousand citizens needs
a stricter law, so I'll be voting AGAINST the name change edict.

I see no reason why Nova Roma can't adapt a fee of $US 25.00 (The cost
of filing a pettion in Georgia) for changing a name. This will serve
to discourage name changes, but will not place an unreasonable burden
on those who a reason for a change.

As for those who wish to misrepresent thier gender for trivial
reasons, sooner or later thier deception will be found out. They will
be viewed as a person who considers our nation to be some kind of RPG
and thier Dignitas will suffer for this insult. The loss of Dignitas,
of becoming known as a person who is NOT to be trusted is punishment
enough.

Valete,
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Clients and Patrons
From:	Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:29:07 +0200

trog99@-------- wrote:
> My question is, and I am sure it is a sensitive one, but one I must
> nonetheless ask, is: Of all the persons who posted in favour of such
> a client/patron relationship, not one person said "For example: I am
> so and so's client. He has really helped me out, and I do appreciate
> everything he (or she?) has done for me." I know there are clients
> out there. But, why the clandestine nature of the relationship? If
> you believe it to be a time-honoured virtuous institution, then why
> not simply feel at ease to say that you are the client of someone else?
((...snipped?))

Salve,

Mostly since we are a bit uncomfortable with the term due to recent
debates, and since (I'm sure) not all of us consider the relationship
between ourself and our "mentor" a client/patron one, but simply
friendship. In roman terms, however, I'd probably be forced to
acknowledge that I am, indeed, the client of the person who recruited me
to Nova Roma in the first place. He's been a great support for my first
faltering steps in our beloved Res Publica, and gradually put more and
more responsibility on my shoulders. All in all, however detrimental
some of you might consider the client/patron relationship, for me it's
been completely beneficial, and I might add that if an edict/a lex on
the subject would be passed, I'd be willing to make it official, if that
was the wish of my mentor/patron.

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consilarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

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Subject:	[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem IV Idus Aprilias (April 10)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:42:23 +0100

Salvete omnes

This is one of the dies nefasti (N), a day on which no legal action can take
place.

This is the seventh and final day of the Megalesia in honour of Magna Mater
(Cybele) and corresponds to the aniversary of dedication (Dies Natalis) of
her temple at the Palatine Hill. Magna Mater gave us the Victory over
Hannibal, and for this Her idol was kept at the
temple of Victoria before being deposed in Her own temple in this joyful day
in 191 BC. This day sees the culmination of the games with chariot races at
the Circus Maximus. Before the Praetor signals the start of the chariot
races, there is a procession of golden statues of the Gods around the
Circus: winged Victoria, Neptune, Mars, Apollo, Minerva, Ceres, Bacchus,
Pollux and Castor, and Venus.

Mensis Aprilis is sacred to Venus. Venus, Magna Mater and Ceres are starting
to bless our fields. I would
say that this month is devoted to the female creative power. But some
dangers must also be averted. Let each thing come at its due time as
dictated by Sol and Luna.

Valete bee in pace deorum
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex

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Subject:	[novaroma] Taxes and Audits
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:53:57 -0000

Salvete,

>From reading several posts, I see that some of our citizens have a
fear that thier taxes may be misspent because of thier experances with
thier Macronational governments. As I live in an area where policital
coruption is so bad that we recentaly had a newly elected Shrieff, who
ran on a reform platform, assassinated I can understand this.

Nova Roma is a dual enity, both a micronation, and a nonprofit
corporation (NPC). As I have served as an officer in an NPC I
understand that there are Macronational laws regarding reporting
income and expenditures. I'm familar with the laws of my State, but
not those of New Hampshire where Nova Roma was incorparated.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to know what New
Hampshire's laws require of a NPC regarding reports to members. I
realize that Nova Roma can pass leges on this matter, but since Nova
Roman law is limited to banishment a criminal magistrate will care
little after (s)he milks the treasury. New Hampshire law on the other
hand may subject him/her to imprisonment which has a greater deterance
value.

Valete,
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Festival
From:	"Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:01:56 +1200

Salve Pompeia!

Hmmm, a laugh? Perhaps some contemplation or maybe a few frowns, possibly even some outrage.
Such is the joy of writing Satire :-)

Vale
Domna Claudia Auspicata
----- Original Message -----
From: Pompeia Cornelia
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] The Festival

Salve Domna:

Well, between the two of us, we should get a few laughs out of the republic,
no?

Vale,
Pompeia

>From: "Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: <novaroma@-------->
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] The Festival
>Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:51:59 +1200
>
>Salvete Pompeia Cornelia et omnes!
>
>I too am working on a Satire, which seems to get longer and longer... You
>know I tried to write something else but it just came out Satire :-)
>I am wondering whether Satire will be judged under Comedy? I hope this
>allows for 'black' Comedy as well.
>
>So, what are other folks working on?
>
>Valete omnes!
>Domna Claudia Auspicata
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: trog99@--------
> To: novaroma@--------
> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 2:42 PM
> Subject: [novaroma] The Festival
>
>
> Salvete Omnes:
>
> I am working on a short satire for the upcoming Festival hosted by the
> Plebian Aediles and Sodalitas Musarum.
>
> What are other folks working on?
>
> Bene valete,
> Pompeia Cornelia
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Taxes Revisited
From:	Craig Stevenson <dougies@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:01:45 +0930

Ave Marcus Sentius,

Let's not forget the preferences scandal with One Nation.

Our system resides on one of the biggest lies of all: That the decisions are
fair and equitable. If this were so, we would be a republic as designated by
the popular vote. But no, we got stuck with the version given by "Mr.
Catapiller Eyebrows" John Howard.

Just venting a bit of frustration on this topic:-).

Valete bene all,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

Mark A Bird wrote:

> Salve
>
> Where are you from Coriolanus - ...???
>
> I am sure not all Australian's will agree with my view - but they only need
> to travel to see what we have here - our (the Politicians) may be
> incompetent - but rarely corrupt - the biggest scandal we have had was over
> a miss use of a corporate telephone card by an MP - hardly anything to get
> overly excited about...
>
> Vale
>
> MSC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gaiuscoriolanus@-------- [mailto:gaiuscoriolanus@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, 10 April 2001 3:46 Pm
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: Taxes Revisited
>
> You are so lucky Sentius. Draco is not the only one who lives in
> country with corupt government. There was pretty much coruptial
> scandals in our government in last years and consequently I do not
> trust in politicians.
>
> Nova Roma is something else, but I can not get rid of this distrust
> imediately.
>
> Vale
> Coriolanus
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@r...> wrote:
> > I live in Australia, and having a Political system and Public
> Service
> > based on the Westminster System, our Giovernment is free of
> corruption.
> >
> > Marcus Claudius Sentius
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: S. A--------onius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
> > Sent: Monday, 9 April 2001 9:01 Pm
> > To: novaroma@--------
> > Subject: Re: [novaroma] Taxes Revisited
> >
> >
> > Salve Marce Claudi,
> >
> > ((snipped))
> >
> > > The quotation "but who is to guard the guards themselves?" is
> > offensive
> > and
> > > shows an attitude of distrust on the whole concept - we must trust
> > those
> > who
> > > have been elected - how else can NOVA operate but through Trust
> and
> > loyalty
> > > ...
> >
> > Iuvenalis would be honoured to receive the comment above from you.
> >
> > I don't know in what country you live, but where I live, the
> government
> > is
> > filled with corrupt officials. Belgium is called "Italy of the
> North"
> > for a
> > reason, and by nature I distrust politicans, and °certainly°
> financial
> > politicians, even those that control the actual financial
> magistrates.
> > Trust
> > and loyalty does not equal naivity.
> >
> > Vale bene,
> > Draco
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Politics - what else
From:	Ira Adams <iadams@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:53:26 -0500

Salve

Remarkably on-topic - a corrupt government is often a very stable
government. People who are feeding well are content. Dissidents are kept
down or eliminated. The people have strong disincentives to demand
change. The government of the PRC is probably the most stable in the
region.

There are some strong-government advocates in Nova Roma, and I think it
fundamental that strong, stable government is necessarily corrupt. The
very act of exercizing power over other people is intrinsically corrupt
and corrupting. Of course people on the other side of the argument will
tell you that it is a noble self-sacrifice to rule others "for their own
good."

You are quite right that in seeking to recreate Roman government, we have
recreated it complete with its vicious infighting, its nastiness, perhaps
even its violence (although muted and impaired somewhat by our lack of
face-to-face interaction and by the macronational legalities in which it
is embedded).

Why has it happened that way?

Because we are still the same creatures that inhabited the original. I
just hope we can get around to also recreating the virtues of the
original someday soon. Real soon!

Vale,

LSAO

On 4/10/01 12:38 AM Mark A Bird (mark_a_bird@--------) wrote:

>Salve the person with fifteen names (L/L S/S A/A O/O)
>
>I was serious, but I can understand your position being an ex Queenslander -
>we have to be happy with our system though - we have easily the most stable
>Government in the region - I mean look at the debacle in the US - we had an
>email circulating around here that the Serbian President was going to send
>in Peacekeeping troops in Florida etc., to keep the peace...
>
>But Gosh - isn't this Nova a real reincarnation of ancient Rome - vicious
>Politics to boot - exciting and interesting to be part of it - how long have
>you being a citizen L/L S/S A/A O/O ???
>
>Vale,
>
>MSC
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A Boy Named Sue
From:	Ira Adams <iadams@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:53:28 -0500

Salve Lucius Sicinius

A very wise and pertinent point made.

Citizens should ask themselves why certain people in power have put the
Republic through so much turmoil and distortion simply to prevent one
single citizen from referring to himself by the Roman name he feels best
suits who he is.

Think what they might do to you if you had some more significant need
they didn't like.

Governmental corruption and misconduct is like a fungal disease: you had
better take steps to eradicate it at the first sign of infection or it
will spread and become entrenched. This Edict on names is the first small
spot of a spiritual fungus. Take it seriously, no matter how absurd it
looks.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

On 4/10/01 4:06 AM lsicinius@-------- (lsicinius@--------) wrote:

>Salvete,
>
>The subect of this post is from a song by Johnny Cash that was a hit
>about 30 years ago ;o).
>
>My Macronation (USA) has NO national laws regarding a person's legal
>gender or name. These matters are left up to the states. I am a
>resident of the state of Georgia, which is one of the most
>conservative areas of the United States. The only law we have
>pertaining to legal gender is a homophobic law prohibiting "same-sex"
>marriaiges. We have no laws requiring that a name match a person's
>gender, nor am I aware of any laws in any state regarding this. (Hence
>the subject line). I remember the 1960's and recall some celebraties
>of that era giving thier children some rather creative names (Moon
>Unit Zappa for example) that matched no gender.
>
>The laws on name changes in my State are clear. I can go petition the
>court for ANY name I wish to use. If I want to change my Macronational
>name from John to Jane that is perfectally legal, as it would be legal
>for me to become Lucius Sicinius Drusus in my Macronation. Just after
>the movie "Star Wars" was released there was a case where someone
>asked to have his name leagaly changed to "Luke Skywalker" and that
>was approved.
>
>The only real restrictions are that the court looks closely at
>requests where a legal gauradian is changing the name of a minor child
>(to protect the intrests of the child) and that you can't change your
>name for the purpose of commiting fraud.
>
>All I have to be to leagaly change my name in my macronation is file a
>pettion, pay a court fee, and I become whomever I please. If a State
>with over 7 million citizens can get by with a system like this I see
>no reason why a micronation with fewer than a thousand citizens needs
>a stricter law, so I'll be voting AGAINST the name change edict.
>
>I see no reason why Nova Roma can't adapt a fee of $US 25.00 (The cost
>of filing a pettion in Georgia) for changing a name. This will serve
>to discourage name changes, but will not place an unreasonable burden
>on those who a reason for a change.
>
>As for those who wish to misrepresent thier gender for trivial
>reasons, sooner or later thier deception will be found out. They will
>be viewed as a person who considers our nation to be some kind of RPG
>and thier Dignitas will suffer for this insult. The loss of Dignitas,
>of becoming known as a person who is NOT to be trusted is punishment
>enough.
>
>Valete,
>Lucius Sicinius Drusus
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A Conquest!
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 19:45:25 -0000

Salve P. Gramatinicus Albinus:

Congratulations! Many, many congratulations. As a fellow Nova Romani I am
very proud of you :) :) AND.......

If you don't mind, I would love to read your essay on the Cursus.....Yes,
please.

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia

>From: syphax_venaliccii@--------
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: [novaroma] A Conquest!
>Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 16:25:21 -0000
>
>Salvete!
>
>I, P. Gramatinicus Albinus, have conquered the Texas State Junior
>Classical League tournement just recently! It was held in Denton, TX,
>at the University of North Texas. I competed in the folling
>catagories, followed by my placement.
>
>Roman Life Level IV, 4th place
>Greek Life and Literature Level IV, 5th place
>Open Certamen (buzzer game), 1st place
>Boy's Costume, 10th place (pictures soon!)
>Pentathalon Level IV, Magna Cum Laude
>
>Placing 5th or better qualifies to to attend the National Junior
>Classical League's Convention, held this year at Tulane University in
>New Orleans. Wish me luck for Nationals!
>
>*On a smaller note, I have written an essay on the Cursus Honorum,
>and any who would like to read it, just send me an email expressing
>your wish.*
>
>P. Gramatinicus Albinus
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Latin Translation
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:27:31 -0400

Salve: Person is "homo". But then perhaps someone else can give you a few
variations for different uses. I am not at this point an expert yet. (Far
from being so) :-) Vale, A. Cato
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 1:45 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Latin Translation

> Can someone tell me the Latin for a name of a person (i.e. we call this
> person this name), just supplying the context ...>>>
>
> Son Of White Sock
>
> Thanks
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: LSergAust@-------- [mailto:LSergAust@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, 10 April 2001 3:21 Pm
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: RE: [novaroma] Taxes Revisited
>
>
>
> Salve Marcus Sentius
>
> ROFL is an InterNet abbreviation for the descriptive phrase "Rolling On
> the Floor Laughing."
>
> I currently reside slightly beyond the frontier of the civilized world,
> in rural Mississippi, USA. I will most likely continue to reside here
> until I am assured that my godson is well on his way to existing
> successfully on his own, at which time I may return to Oz (unless the
> natives here knock me off first, since my godson and my family here are
> not the politically correct shade of brown).
>
> I try to keep up with Oz politics, etc., online, so I was able to
> appreciate the humor in your remark (it *was* meant as humor, wasn't it?).
>
> Vale,
>
> L/L S/S A/A O/O
>
>
> On 4/10/01 12:02 AM Mark A Bird (mark_a_bird@--------) wrote:
>
> >Salve
> >
> >Ira - where are you now - and by the way - excuse my total ignorance
being
> a
> >Victorian - what does ROFL stand for ???>>>>
> >
> >Marcus Sentius Claudius
> >
> >
> >MSC - had better start the acronym as it seems all the Go !!!
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Ira Adams [mailto:iadams@--------]
> >Sent: Tuesday, 10 April 2001 2:47 Pm
> >To: novaroma@--------
> >Subject: RE: [novaroma] Taxes Revisited
> >
> >
> >
> >ROFL!!!! Good one, mate!
> >
> >L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
> >expatriate Queenslander
> >
> >On 4/9/01 6:05 PM Mark A Bird (mark_a_bird@--------) wrote:
> >
> >>I live in Australia, and having a Political system and Public Service
> >>based on the Westminster System, our Giovernment is free of corruption.
> >>
> >>Marcus Claudius Sentius
> >>
>
>
> certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
>
> (You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A Boy Named Sue
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:37:11 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Luci Sergi,

> Citizens should ask themselves why certain people in power have put the
> Republic through so much turmoil and distortion simply to prevent one
> single citizen from referring to himself by the Roman name he feels best
> suits who he is.

Let us also ask ourselves why certain people who wish they were
in power have put the Republic through so much turmoil, endlessly
bringing back the same tired old arguments and demands, making a major
issue out of something that most of us simply don't care about.

There are *two* groups who can be blamed for the "turmoil".

> Governmental corruption and misconduct is like a fungal disease:

Where is the corruption and misconduct here? Looks more like a
legitimate difference of opinion.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	[novaroma] Invalid Voter Code and Vote Now
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:05:38 -0400

Salve: Would the citizen who has the below Tracking Number please check your number and try to vote again.
Tracking Number ... 5093.
I would also like to take this opportunity to once again remind citizens that voting ends soon. If you have not already done so, you still have a chance to vote if you do so now.
Vale, Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, ... Rogator

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Comentarii (was Re:Codex)
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:11:09 -0000

>>One idea that has been floating around for a while has been the
idea of "handbooks" for the various magistracies.<<

Salve Esteemed Consul,

What a fantastic idea. This would also encourage more people to get
involved in running for office since they would have a better idea of
what they were committing to.

Vale,
Gaius Popillius Laenas

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] A Boy Named Sue
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:09:48 +0100

Salvete

While I consider all kind of people as my equals irrespective of sexual
orientation, race, religion, etc, I'm really tired of these arguments about
sex change within Nova Roma. Please all of you interested on the discussion
of sexual orientation, etc. choose another site from among the available on
the Web. A good one is
http://www.shemale.com/

All of you who want to get sexual partners or simply talk about your
frustrations, there are a lot of dedicated IRC channels, mailing lists,
Message Boards, etc.
Violations of human rights, intolerance, etc. are also dealt with by
macronational organisations and authorities.

But please take this subject out from Nova Roma once and for all! We are
here for Romanitas, not for Sexualitas.

Valete omnes
Antonius Gryllus Graecus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A Boy Named Sue
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:02:56 -0500

Here here!!

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 10:09 AM
Subject: RE: [novaroma] A Boy Named Sue

> Salvete
>
> While I consider all kind of people as my equals irrespective of sexual
> orientation, race, religion, etc, I'm really tired of these arguments
about
> sex change within Nova Roma. Please all of you interested on the
discussion
> of sexual orientation, etc. choose another site from among the available
on
> the Web. A good one is
> http://www.shemale.com/
>
> All of you who want to get sexual partners or simply talk about your
> frustrations, there are a lot of dedicated IRC channels, mailing lists,
> Message Boards, etc.
> Violations of human rights, intolerance, etc. are also dealt with by
> macronational organisations and authorities.
>
> But please take this subject out from Nova Roma once and for all! We are
> here for Romanitas, not for Sexualitas.
>
> Valete omnes
> Antonius Gryllus Graecus
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] The Gender/Name-change Edictum
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 20:12:56 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

I think that the Gender or Name-change Edictum can be dealt with in
many ways and on many levels. I am inclined to think, however, that most
of the controversy which surrounds it have their roots in a very few
hard facts and whether or not they are faced squarely. Let me present
them to you in summary:

1. Censor Sulla and his supporter and encourager Q. Fabius Maximus and
some other people here have a point of view according to which gross
physical sexuality is identifiable with *real* sex and *true* gender.
Period. I do not doubt their sincerity in believing that, and the
presently proposed legislation was prepared with that presumption in
mind, with only a grudging and partial admission that in some
extraordinary cases, preferably involving surgery to change the gross
physical sexuality, public opinion might compel the right to have a
different sexuality recognised.

2. The straightforward or naïve viewpoint under point 1 above does not
give recognition to the *fact* that psychological and biological science
today believe that there are a minority of persons whose mental
sexuality is different from their gross physical sexual characteristics.
This may be due to a physical difference in sexual brain structure from
the one the gross physical characteristics might lead one to suspect,
and thus ultimately also a physically determined sex. In any case, it is
a real phenomenon. Persons of this sort are not lying, rôle-playing or
exercising freedom of choice in experiencing themselves as personally of
a sexuality different from that of the inappropriate gross physical
sexual characteristics. It is an involuntary situation which sometimes
leads to requests for surgery to bring the body in line with the mind,
and even if it does not, to a natural desire to present a social gender
to society which is in accord with the truth of the personality. As we
*are* self-aware personalities, but merely *have* bodies, it is clearly
this mental sexuality which must count as real and true if a conflict is
involved.

3. Granted that this state of having a true sexuality at variance with
inappropriate gross physical sexual characteristics is involuntary and
either innate and/or acquired through very early experience out of the
individual's control, the basic principle of justice that prohibits
discrimination on the basis of such involuntary things as race, sex,
native language, etc. is applicable as a matter of course.
Discrimination can take the form of requiring special documentation,
possibly burdensome to obtain, from transsexuals when they wish to adopt
or change their name, when that is not required of other citizens. Such
is the case with the proposed Edictum.

4. The interests of the Nova Roman State are to act in all things with
the justice, tolerance and clemency which are the glories of any decent
state. And to enjoy the contributions of all persons with an interest in
things Roman without regard for their race, ethnicity or sexuality.
There are no disadvantages for Nova Roma in permitting its citizens -
us! - to choose the genders of our names in acccordance with our social
genders. For almost all of us that will mean a choice also in accordance
with our gross physical sexual characteristics as well as our mental
sex. For the few who have disparate sexual natures, the freedom to be
themselves without fuss, unnecessary red tape or harassment will be a
major source of happiness, and the happier the citizens, the happier the
State.

I think that coming to terms with the fundamental issues of
pyschological science and ethical principles of justice can only lead to
the conclusion that singling out transsexuals for special burdens and
limitations is unfair and detrimental to the justice of the State and
the interests of both the State and its minority citizens.

*** I concretely propose that a reformed version of the Name-change
Edictum be set before the People in which name adoption and name
changing, including gender shift, be treated independently of a person's
gross physical sexual attributes and in a matter simple and identical
for all citizens whatever gender they choose to project. ***

If there is any legitimate reason for the State to keep a record of
citizens' gross physical sexual attributes, let it do so: but the social
gender of individuals and the grammatical gender of names should be a
matter of individual choice, not a legal, administrative or political
football.

Now, there are those who wish to imitate the policies of
macronations, despite the fact that we are a micronation with a lot more
freedom and flexibility to do the right thing. Macronations are moving
towards full rights for transsexuals, but old laws and the need to
change them have made the macronations a bit slow in realising full
equality. *Nova* Roma is not only a small and flexible micronation, but
a *new* and young one, despite our ancient heritage, and it has no
reason to repeat the old errors of the macronations.

I very much regret that the origins of this Edictum were connected
to a great struggle of wills between a Censor and a Citizen, so that
personal elements became more important than the fundamental matter of
justice that should be our primary concern. No one should be
discriminated against because of the way Nature or the Gods have made
him or her, and everyone should be in control of the intimate things
that are essential to the dignity of the human person such as sexual
identity and name.

I call upon every Nova Roman to consider this carefully and vote to
treat each other as fellow cives with respect for our individual rights
to be ourselves. If we do not do this, it will cause frustrations and
resentments which will benefit no one, least of all the Respublica.
Concordia and Amicitia only flourish with mutual respect and Libertas.

Valete!

M. Apollonius Formosanus,
Aedilis Plebeius Novae Romae

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] The Gender/Name-change Edictum
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:24:05 +0100

Antonius Gryllus Graecus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D

>I think that the Gender or Name-change Edictum can be dealt with in
>many ways and on many levels. I am inclined to think, however, that most
>of the controversy which surrounds it have their roots in a very few
>hard facts and whether or not they are faced squarely. Let me present
>them to you in summary:
<snip>

Fellow citizens of Nova Roma, do you see what I mean? These people's bet is
to sink Nova Roma into sexuality discussions deviating it from its main
scope. Consider this: any people interested on Rome or its history will not
become citizens once they find out that Nova Roma is nothing but a site
devoted to sexuality discussions.
And I tell you... These people will only shut their mouths up after the
enraged people of Nova Roma tells them to do so.

Citizens of Nova Roma, the power lies with you. If you want Nova Roma to
focus on Romanitas, please post to this list asking these respectful ladies
and gentlemen to stop the transgender issue.
If, on the other hand you want to finish the work of those who recently left
and prefer to aim at destroying or deviating Nova Roma, please do as these
respectful ladies and gentlemen ask you to do, keep theese sexual debates,
send postings against the Senate, crucify Censor Sulla and his supporter
Quintus Fabius Maximus, burn the Consuls alive, insult the rest of the
magistrates, and finish your job by cursing the Roman Gods once again!

Valete bene in pace deorum.

Antonius Gryllus Graecus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Gender/Name-change Edictum
From:	margali <margali@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:53:08 -0400

As far as I can see, we are having to deal with a world much different
than the world of Rome.

I do believe that there may be a better way of getting the issue of
name/gender settled than on an email list, but it is a valid
discussion. I have yet to see anything particularly titillating or
frightening in the discussion. You should see some of the spam on usenet
groups! A little dissention is a good thing. Lack of dissention is what
caused Rome to change from a republic to a dictatorship. I for one want
a republic, I don't want to deal with a Caligula or a Sulla!

Being very new, I do not know how one goes about getting the matter put
to a vote, but for what it is worth I feel that your name should reflect
your personal gender. If you are a man or woman in the body of the other
sex, then you are the sex you feel you are. Me? I am happily hetero and
have no desire to ever change, but if you are happiest to be considered
whatever sex you feel you are it is fine with me.
margali
Hyapatia Asinia

The Quote Starts Here:
Citizens of Nova Roma, the power lies with you. If you want Nova Roma to

focus on Romanitas, please post to this list asking these respectful
ladies
and gentlemen to stop the transgender issue.
If, on the other hand you want to finish the work of those who recently
left
and prefer to aim at destroying or deviating Nova Roma, please do as
these
respectful ladies and gentlemen ask you to do, keep theese sexual
debates,
send postings against the Senate, crucify Censor Sulla and his supporter

Quintus Fabius Maximus, burn the Consuls alive, insult the rest of the
magistrates, and finish your job by cursing the Roman Gods once again!

Valete bene in pace deorum.

Antonius Gryllus Graecus

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] The Gender/Name-change Edictum
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:02:59 -0700

Salvete Pontifex Graece et Quiritibus;

I think you have summarized the situation
well and I fully concur. Citizens, a Lex
has been proposed; all the traditional
arguments have been hashed and rehashed.
Let's put it to the voters and let them
decide once and for all whether or not
the Lex is warranted. (And no citizens;
I am *not* in any way stifling or attempting
to stifle anyone's right to opinion or debate
-it is a request only.)

For myself, I for one have no further
desire to continue endless debate on genital
configurations on this list and will make no
further public comment on the proposed Lex or any
tangential issues related to same.

Bene valete,
Oppius Flaccus Severus, Legatus America Boreoccidentalis Major

-----Original Message-----
From: Antonio Grilo [mailto:amg@--------]
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 11:24 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: RE: [novaroma] The Gender/Name-change Edictum

Antonius Gryllus Graecus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D

>I think that the Gender or Name-change Edictum can be dealt with in
>many ways and on many levels. I am inclined to think, however, that most
>of the controversy which surrounds it have their roots in a very few
>hard facts and whether or not they are faced squarely. Let me present
>them to you in summary:
<snip>

Fellow citizens of Nova Roma, do you see what I mean? These people's bet is
to sink Nova Roma into sexuality discussions deviating it from its main
scope. Consider this: any people interested on Rome or its history will not
become citizens once they find out that Nova Roma is nothing but a site
devoted to sexuality discussions.
And I tell you... These people will only shut their mouths up after the
enraged people of Nova Roma tells them to do so.

Citizens of Nova Roma, the power lies with you. If you want Nova Roma to
focus on Romanitas, please post to this list asking these respectful ladies
and gentlemen to stop the transgender issue.
If, on the other hand you want to finish the work of those who recently left
and prefer to aim at destroying or deviating Nova Roma, please do as these
respectful ladies and gentlemen ask you to do, keep theese sexual debates,
send postings against the Senate, crucify Censor Sulla and his supporter
Quintus Fabius Maximus, burn the Consuls alive, insult the rest of the
magistrates, and finish your job by cursing the Roman Gods once again!

Valete bene in pace deorum.

Antonius Gryllus Graecus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] NR in Germany
From:	Matthias Stappert <3s@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:12:15 +0200

Salve, Cassi Nerva.

I´ll forward your message to the Germania mailing list. Perhaps you may
get some response.

Vale
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Praetor Germaniae

gcassiusnerva@-------- wrote:
>
> Do any Nova Romans live in the area of Grafenwoehr? I will be leaving for
> there this Saturday and will be there for just under three weeks. Please
> email me.
>
> Gaius Cassius Nerva
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Just thinking aloud
From:	Brian Tillery <britil@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 13:10:18 -0500

Salve!

I thought I would speak for a moment on the ideas that are going around
Roma.
First, The idea of a tax is a good idea, but like others I believe it should
be called something else. Taxation in the old republic was not handled
well. There was more free giving of gifts to Roma for buildings and such
from the upper class and merchants. These people felt it was to their
interest to give to Roma for these things, because the result would bring
more cives into their city and in doing so bring more monies into their
houses. What we need is more industry in Nova Roma. We need to build
business where we can grow in respect and monetary reserves. True we can
model after the macro nations in respect to taxes, but is this what we
really want to do? After all, are we not building a new civilization based
on Roma? We have to look past the macro nations we come from and look
towards the future of what it is we are trying to build here, now. True in
the ancient days of Roma there was corruption in high office and there will
be in our new Roma as well, but with a viable criminal code these corrupt
officials will have more then just expulsion to worry about. Yes a criminal
code will allow use to curtail these activities to a point, but like all
nations these alone will not stop the evil hearted who’s intent is to steal
and destroy. What we have to do cives is not dwell on what might happen
when.. or what if’s this is shortsighted thinking and with this mentality we
will never grow. Stuck in the paranoia of fear of others intent will
stagnate the growth of our new nation. I know as all of you do, we are a new
nation growing in thought and actions taking steps that have not been taken
for thousands of years, but we have a guide to go on Roma of the past. Does
this mean we follow each and every step they made? No not at all we cannot.
We live in a totally different world then they did. We however adapt those
things they did to our lives and nation for which we are trying to build
with the final result being a nation that is strong and truly great as our
Roma from the past. It is my thoughts that we give gifts to Roma for her
growth and also work in some way to build industry. Helping each other grow
and our beloved nation grow. If others of less noble intent can band
together and make money hand over fist is it not reasonable that we of the
noblest nation on earth can do like wise.

Marcus Flavius
In the service of Roma.

Senatus Populusque Romanus (SPQR)
America Austroccidentalis
(MARCUS FLAVIUS)
BRIAN TILLERY
ON-SITE SERVICE TEAM/TOSHIBA/ADA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A Boy Named Sue
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:31:09 -0500

10 Apr 2001

Salve All

Lucius Sicinius, we are not just talking about Roman names. We are
talking about Gender identification. What is the Gender specified in
your drivers license? Is it male or female? Latin is a gender driven
based language, there is no doubt of that. This law recognizes that
fact and officially adopts that fact into law.

But, back to gender identification, it is that part of the macronational
recognition that we are speaking about. If your macronational country
recognizes you as a male then in Nova Roma you too will be recognized as
a male. If your macronational country recognizes you as a female then
in Nova Roma you will be listed as female. I do not see a reason why
Nova Roma should deviate from that status. If one is that determined to
be recognized in Nova Roma as being another gender, but NOT willing to
take the same steps in their macronational country, again I must ask
why? Since again, I view Nova Roma exactly the same as any other
macronational country.

I have heard it stated on this list before how easy it is for one to copy
their drivers
license, and mail that photo copy in. We are talking less than 60
cents US, a buck in Canada. If one did that, I am sure the Censors would be
HAPPY to change any status with
those documents. If someone under 18 wants to be a citizen of Nova Roma,
the parents of that applicant must
snail mail a statement allowing the under aged applicant to
participate. Therefore the precedent of mailing in paperwork to
magistrates of Nova Roma is firmly established.

Vale

Quintus Sertorius

Queastor
Nova Roma
Propraetor
Canada Occidentalis

Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma

Join the egroup for Canada Occidentalis
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NR_CanOcc

Join the egroup for the Quintus Sertorius of Old Rome
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sertorii

----- Original Message -----
From: <lsicinius@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 4:06 AM
Subject: [novaroma] A Boy Named Sue

> Salvete,
>
> The subect of this post is from a song by Johnny Cash that was a hit
> about 30 years ago ;o).
>
> My Macronation (USA) has NO national laws regarding a person's legal
> gender or name. These matters are left up to the states. I am a
> resident of the state of Georgia, which is one of the most
> conservative areas of the United States. The only law we have
> pertaining to legal gender is a homophobic law prohibiting "same-sex"
> marriaiges. We have no laws requiring that a name match a person's
> gender, nor am I aware of any laws in any state regarding this. (Hence
> the subject line). I remember the 1960's and recall some celebraties
> of that era giving thier children some rather creative names (Moon
> Unit Zappa for example) that matched no gender.
>
> The laws on name changes in my State are clear. I can go petition the
> court for ANY name I wish to use. If I want to change my Macronational
> name from John to Jane that is perfectally legal, as it would be legal
> for me to become Lucius Sicinius Drusus in my Macronation. Just after
> the movie "Star Wars" was released there was a case where someone
> asked to have his name leagaly changed to "Luke Skywalker" and that
> was approved.
>
> The only real restrictions are that the court looks closely at
> requests where a legal gauradian is changing the name of a minor child
> (to protect the intrests of the child) and that you can't change your
> name for the purpose of commiting fraud.
>
> All I have to be to leagaly change my name in my macronation is file a
> pettion, pay a court fee, and I become whomever I please. If a State
> with over 7 million citizens can get by with a system like this I see
> no reason why a micronation with fewer than a thousand citizens needs
> a stricter law, so I'll be voting AGAINST the name change edict.
>
> I see no reason why Nova Roma can't adapt a fee of $US 25.00 (The cost
> of filing a pettion in Georgia) for changing a name. This will serve
> to discourage name changes, but will not place an unreasonable burden
> on those who a reason for a change.
>
> As for those who wish to misrepresent thier gender for trivial
> reasons, sooner or later thier deception will be found out. They will
> be viewed as a person who considers our nation to be some kind of RPG
> and thier Dignitas will suffer for this insult. The loss of Dignitas,
> of becoming known as a person who is NOT to be trusted is punishment
> enough.
>
> Valete,
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: A Boy Named Sue
From:	Cinnabari <darkelf@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 13:15:34 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete:

>
> Lucius Sicinius, we are not just talking about Roman names. We are
> talking about Gender identification. What is the Gender specified in
> your drivers license? Is it male or female? Latin is a gender driven
> based language, there is no doubt of that. This law recognizes that
> fact and officially adopts that fact into law.
>

Ah, but *gender-based language* is not *based on gender* in the same way
in which you speak. It simply means that there are declinations of nouns
which behave in certain fashions. We speak of masculine, feminine, and
neuter as the genders of nouns in Latin -- but that does not mean the
thing to which the noun refers actually displays a *gender* in the sense
of sexual characteristics. Yes, there are examples where it does... and
there are examples where it does not.

> But, back to gender identification, it is that part of the macronational
> recognition that we are speaking about. If your macronational country
> recognizes you as a male then in Nova Roma you too will be recognized as
> a male. If your macronational country recognizes you as a female then
> in Nova Roma you will be listed as female.

My macronation does not identify me as male or female based solely on my
*name.*

> I do not see a reason why
> Nova Roma should deviate from that status. If one is that determined to
> be recognized in Nova Roma as being another gender, but NOT willing to
> take the same steps in their macronational country, again I must ask
> why? Since again, I view Nova Roma exactly the same as any other
> macronational country.
>

My *name* is not required in my macronation to reflect my gender in any
way. While English does not have gender-nouns, we do have given names
which are traditionally masculine or feminine, and a few that are
ambiguous (the infamous 'Pat' example from Saturday Night Live). And
there is no macronational law whatsoever that states I cannot choose a
name that traditionally signifies a member of the opposite gender and take
it as my own.

Valete,

P. Clodia Cinnabari

=====
Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try. --Yoda

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Subject:	[novaroma] Patron/Client -One client's real view...
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 13:17:48 -0700

Salvete Quiritibus;

After reasoned requests by Consul Germanice et
Pompeia Cornelia -and after much consideration;
it seemed that it might be beneficial to actually
share the experiences of real-life client -me.
Consul Germanice was quite right in stating that
client/patron relationships should be out in
the open and looked on proudly by those involved
in same.

So Quirites, I stand before you and declare that
I am in fact a client of Censor Lucius Cornelius
Sulla Felix. So, before the attacks fly, I only
ask that you read what is said here, judge for
yourself and then do as you will. Since we all
more or less know each other's general feelings
on clientage in general -both pro and con, I can
only offer a description of my own such relationship.

Like many newbies, I came to Nova Roma full of
grandiose ideas, notions of what to see and do,
how to participate and so forth. As I started to
learn more about Nova Roma, many questions arose.
(And I mean -MANY -in my case, at the time
I was seemingly having more questions than
answers.)

One of the things I did early on, was download
the AIM client and try chatting with various
citizens to get a better feel for daily life here.
Knowing that deep down somewhere -there had to
be much more to Nova Roman life than what the
main list was offering.

One of the citizens with whom I started talking
most frequently was Sulla. This was largely
due to my travel schedule, the weird hours that
we both seemed to keep (and consequently both
be on chat at the same time) and some common
interests in Roman law and various other topics.
We found a natural rapport which extended naturally
into macronational issues and other topics.

Well, after my continual grilling of Sulla over
a period of many weeks on all manner of legal
and Censorial topics, we decided that it might
in fact be beneficial to try a semi-traditional
patron/client relationship. We began discussing
the idea. It was not something pushed or forced
on either side. VERY long and detailed discussions
ensued, via e-mail, AIM and on good old telephone
(a marvelous tool Quirites and one that has resolved
more than one misunderstanding between myself and
my fellow citizens. I highly recommend it.)

The result of these discussions was the formation
of a general patron/client agreement.

The physical terms of our agreement were actually
quite simple in the end. Sulla would provide
guidance and suggestions on the legal side and help
provide some of the tools necessary for me to
climb the Cursus should I choose to do so. Additionally
we would act as mutual sounding boards for all
manner of ideas regarding Nova Roman law, daily
life and activities.

In return, I would assist him with projects such
as the Censor handbook and provide input and support
on those issues on which we mutually agreed. In
essence, our agreement ended up being sort of a
'scriba +' position. By the time we had actually
gotten to this point though, a friendship had ensued
and this became a component of the relationship
as well.

For myself, I can only say that the experience
gained and the satisfaction in the reciprocation
of a patron/client relationship has been rewarding
in my case. I've been able to learn from one of
Nova Roma's longest-standing citizens and someone
who has always been accessible to the cives and has
worked tirelessly on our behalf. -No, I'm not
going to eulogize; but keep in mind fellow cives
that Sulla is someone who works *many* hours
each and every day on behalf of the Respublica.
He is not just someone who pops his head out
of a proverbial gopher hole every few weeks to
fire a few barbs on the main list, nor is he
someone who just sits around complaining about
things and doing no real work. We could
all learn a thing or two from his tireless
work ethic.

To summarize: yes, I absolutely support the
tradition of patron/client relationships. In my
particular case, it has been very beneficial.
No -such relationships should not be legislated
or forced on anyone -and such relationships of
course are not for everyone. It is very much
a mutual choice for all parties involved.

My hope is that this post has perhaps clarified
things somewhat. Please feel free to ask questions!

Bene valete,
Oppius Flaccus Severus, Legatus America Boreoccidentalis
Sacerdos Neptunus, Retarius et Scriba

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Politics - what else
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:49:13 +0200 (CEST)

Salvete, romani quirites; et Salve, LSAO.

--- Ira Adams <iadams@--------> escribió: >
------(snipped)-------------------------
> There are some strong-government advocates in Nova
> Roma, and I think it
> fundamental that strong, stable government is
> necessarily corrupt. The
> very act of exercizing power over other people is
> intrinsically corrupt
> and corrupting. Of course people on the other side
> of the argument will
> tell you that it is a noble self-sacrifice to rule
> others "for their own
> good."
>
> You are quite right that in seeking to recreate
> Roman government, we have
> recreated it complete with its vicious infighting,
> its nastiness, perhaps
> even its violence (although muted and impaired
> somewhat by our lack of
> face-to-face interaction and by the macronational
> legalities in which it
> is embedded).
>
> Why has it happened that way?
>
> Because we are still the same creatures that
> inhabited the original. I
> just hope we can get around to also recreating the
> virtues of the
> original someday soon. Real soon!
>
> Vale,
>
> LSAO
>

Maybe we should look very carefully at the turning
points of History in which the decision between
political reform and satu quo/corruption was taken in
Roma Antiqua.

I would suggest to concentrate on the tribunate of the
Gracchi brothers (133-123 BCE), where the strongest
reformist movement of the Republic was defeated.
Basically, the arguments behind the dispute were the
ones you have just mentioned. And the reform was
defeated not by strength, ideas or oratory. It was a
short-sightedness installed in the Roman people what
defeated the reform.

I think that, in our effort to recreate "the best of
Rome", we should try to avoid making mistakes leading
us towards "the worst of Rome". We could try to
recreate not only what Rome was, but what Rome could
have been. It is THIS possibility what makes Nova Roma
such a special place. Let's not destroy it.

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Protocivis romanus.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Digest No 1321- Excuse me...
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:55:12 -0400

Salvete, Quirites!
________________________________________________________________________

From: "M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Subject: Excuse me...

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Lucius Marius Peregrinus scripsit:
Subject: Excuse me...
Salvete omnes...

I shall have a little to say about the 'dual-citizenship' defense of
the present name-change edict in a later post. However, as much as I
hope to keep debate on the edict focussed on its merits (and those of
my alternative proposal, if any), I do not think I can venture much
further into said debate until our senior Censor and I get something
cleared up:

Sulla scripsit:
> I have to disagree with Lucius Sergius. Given the fact that this
> issue has come up more than once, by Lucia Maria.

Censor Sulla:
According to both the wording of the edict and your own (very many)
reassurances to me last spring and summer, the terms of the edict do
not affect any alias, chat handle, or e-mail handle a Citizen cares
to adopt. I have been told repeatedly that, whatever my name might
be on the records, I have the right to be addressed in day-to-day
transactions however I please. It is only in an official context--
such as my Governor's appointment of me to the Legateship of my
Regio--that my officially-recorded Roman name *must* be used.

That being said (over and over)...I object to your referring to me by
the feminine version of my name. It is both patently offensive to me
(as you have been aware for years) and completely unnecessary (as no
'official business' or oath is involved).

I am willing to debate any aspect of the name-change edict with you
or anyone else on its merits--but not if you fail to show myself and
other Citizens the bit of respect we expect, and demand, from our
Magistrates. This goes double if a tax measure is enacted; and the
most highly-placed Magistrates ought to be leading the way for all
the rest.

I appreciate your time and attention to this issue in future.

In fides,

-- L Marius Peregrinus
Legatus, Provinciae America Austroccidentalis
Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, Historical Re-Creationist
and Citizen of Rome

Censor Lucius Equitius Cincincinntus: This is where the problem can be
found. The citizen who holds the position of Legata Provincia America
Austroccidentalis is Lucia Maria Peregrina. That she is a Storyteller is in
no dispute, but I don't think she has retired from being a 'Roleplayer'.
Since she used her official title she should use her officially recorded
name, Lucia Maria Peregrina.
Veritas: "Truthfulness" Honesty in dealing with others, "we expect, and
demand, from our
Magistrates." no less.
____________________________

Formosanus;
The person who has the most right to speak about this has spoken - ...

L Equitius: Who do you think you are, Formosanus, to say who has more
'right' or 'the most right' to speak on any subject? That having been said,
what gives you any more right than anyone else to pontificate?

Formosanus;
I also note the aptness of Marius' comments on taxation - all of us
who have been around for a few months and paying attention know that
the Censor's office is one place that has its eye on some of the
prospective tax money from our pockets (quite justifiably so).

L Equitius: This is untrue! I have asked for NOTHING; however, I have
'donated' countless hours to administrative duties, used my own printer ink
and paper and made long distance calls as well. Also, I have supported Nova
Roma financially by making purchases from the Mecellum books store, JBL and
other items from the site. For all this I get to read absurd rhetoric and
outright falsehoods.

Formosanus;
Functionaries might indeed be expected to be more respectful of the
dignitas of the citizens whom they are *serving*. The Senior Censor
doubtless would not wish to be addressed as "Lucia Cornelia Sulla
Felix" just because someone else has a strange notion of sexual
attribution which he insists on applying to others against their
will. Our elected servants of the People should indeed show more
courtesy, sensitivity, and tolerance - otherwise, why would they
expect to receive respect from the People in turn?

L Equitius: Is it really 'a strange notion of sexual attribution' to use
feminine words when addressing a female? Is it disrespectful to do so? I
don't think so. As has been pointed out by my colleague there are provisions
for name changes; however, for one reason or other these actions have not
been taken. Rather they insists we change to suit them.

Formosanus;
And certainly I would welcome an alternative the the present Gender
(Name Change) Edictum... but I shall discuss that elsewhere.

L Equitius: Pehaps you could direct those interested to the archives, since
you have previously beaten this subject to death. Would you, as a Latin
scholar, have us ignore the very nature of the Latin language? I don't think
most people, by far, agree with your views.
See the poll at, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma/surveys?id=201217

Valete, Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus

_________________________________________________
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, Aedilis Plebeius Novae Romae
Amicus Dignitatis; Scriba Censorius
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Moderator Indicis protoprovincialis NR_Venediae
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
____________________________________________________

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: A Boy Named Sue
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:09:12 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@h...>
wrote:
> 10 Apr 2001
>
> Salve All
>
> Lucius Sicinius, we are not just talking about Roman names. We are
> talking about Gender identification. What is the Gender specified
in
> your drivers license? Is it male or female? Latin is a gender
driven
> based language, there is no doubt of that. This law recognizes that
> fact and officially adopts that fact into law.
>

SNIP

> Vale
>
> Quintus Sertorius
>
> Queastor
> Nova Roma
> Propraetor
> Canada Occidentalis
>

Allthough Roman Names have a Gender it they do not allways match the
Sexual Gender. What of the Cognomen of the Dictator of Antiquita and
his name sake one of oue Censors. Isn't Sulla a feminine name? What
of the Goddess Tellus? Are we to upbraid her for having a masculine
name? The obsenities for the sexual organs themselves fail to match
the "correct" gender.

Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: A Boy Named Sue
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:19:52 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Luci Sicini,

> Allthough Roman Names have a Gender it they do not allways match the
> Sexual Gender. What of the Cognomen of the Dictator of Antiquita and
> his name sake one of oue Censors. Isn't Sulla a feminine name?

Not necessarily. There are masculine nouns of the first declension,
ending in "a": agricola, -ae (farmer) and nauta, -ae (sailor).

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A Boy Named Sue
From:	QFabiusMax@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:26:51 EDT

Salvete,

So if you want to change your name in Georgia, to a different gender, it
costs $25.00?

That's cheap. When you change your name to that of a feminine persuasion,
we will change your official Latin name here in NR to reflect that.
There, problem solved. Can we get back to taxes?

Valete,
Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Patron/Client -One client's real view...
From:	"Julilla Sempronia Magna" <julilla@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 20:57:24 -0000

Oppius Flaccus Severus, bravo! What a fortunate experience

While women were in Roma Antiqua exempt from the patron-client
relationships (except when their husbands dragged them off to their
patronus' domus) I have been thinking that a patron or mentor would
be most helpful as I attempt to make myself smart on Nova Roma
through extensive reading of the boards *gasp! gasp! gasp!*

Therefore, I, Julilla Sempronia Magna, announce that I seek a patron
who is willing to perform as my guide to the winding streets and
byways. In turn, I offer my web design and graphics skills (as time
permits from my own very real clients)

Terms: flexible and open minded, willing to have a good laugh now and
then!

---
cura et valeas,

@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| http://julilla.tripod.com/
Daily Life in Ancient Rome
@____@ julilla@--------
||||

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Subject:	[novaroma] RE: A boy named Sue
From:	"Devry, Mark (Packaging House Auckland)" <mark.devry@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:15:33 +1200

Two Points on this. I believe that below is the offending Edict?

XX. - A citizen who wishes to change the gender of his name counter to that
dictated by his sex must present, in support of his application, proof of
acceptance of the contrary sex by an authority of a macronation, state, or
municipality. In other words, if the applicant is physically a man and has
a form of macronational or municipal identification listing his sex as
female, or is officially recognized as a woman in his country of
macronational citizenship, then he may use a feminine name in Nova Roma.
i) - An exception to this rule is allowed in the case of transsexual
citizens who are discussing surgical sex alteration with a health care
provider or undergoing other medical and psychological treatment in
preparation for such an operation. In these instances, documentation
pertaining to health care provider(s) may be required of the applicant.
ii) - Post-operative transsexual citizens shall be named according to their
current sex.
iii) - Hermaphrodites shall be named according to the sex in which they are
recognized by their country of macronational citizenship.

1> It is unenforcable anyway. If someone really wants to change their sex,
they just need to re-apply for citizenship as a new citizen and let their
previous "persona" lapse into inactivity or activly resign citizenship.
Nova Roma could moniter all addresses that register, rather than all people,
but (a) if a brother and sister use the same Internet Server to enroll it
would flag them and (b) it is easy enough to change service providers unless
you live in a third world country like Australia. (sorry - just kidding).
To be honest, it does lead into a whole question of internet safety and
perhaps a smarter way of doing things would be to provide in the "Welcome to
Nova Roma" email from the censors we all get when we join Nova Roma is to
add a little "Internet Safety Tip" - stating that (a) "Just because a person
has a masculine / feminine name doesn't mean they are in real life a man /
woman." and (b) "Although we would all like to trust all citizens and
believe that they are all honest, Prudentia is a virtue. If you wish to
meet face to face someone you meet through Nova Roma - do so in a public
place and preferably bring a friend just in case they are a bit dodgy."

2> Has anyone other than myself noted that the language in the edict reads
"A citizen who wishes to change the gender of his name counter to that
dictated by his sex must present..." So if a citizen wishes to change the
gender of HER name counter to..." it is o.k.?
Sorry to be picky.

So weather or not section XX gets passed or not - it won't stop someone who
wants to (a) do something like frudulantly pretent to be a woman to get a
FTF meeting with another woman with a view to a sexual assault etc and (b)
anyone who is really uncomfortable with their virtual personas gender. The
only way to stop this would be to make EVERY Citizen porvide proof of their
gender as part of an application and that would be pretty heavy.

Sorry. You are all probably bored of this thread and I did get a bit off
topic.
I ask the Censors to forgive me.

Always a servent of Roma
Marcus Sentius Accipiter.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Politics - what else
From:	QFabiusMax@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:43:15 EDT

In a message dated 4/10/2001 2:07:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
salixastur@-------- writes:

<< I would suggest to concentrate on the tribunate of the
Gracchi brothers (133-123 BCE), where the strongest
reformist movement of the Republic was defeated.
Basically, the arguments behind the dispute were the
ones you have just mentioned. And the reform was
defeated not by strength, ideas or oratory. It was a
short-sightedness installed in the Roman people what
defeated the reform.
>>
Salvete
Good point. However the reform threatened the landed aristocracy, and that
is why the reaction was so extreme. Anytime you screw with a man's livelihood
you get a reaction. Besides if we believe Ploutarkhos, the Gracchi were
utilizing a populist movement to gain power, since they had been denied it
through other means. They are portrayed as corrupt as any other Roman
magistrate of the period.

Since our Senate is not a landed aristocracy we have no fear of our land
being given away. In fact the only thing I would think would threaten the
Senate is the loss our lifetime seat, forcing us to campaign every season to
be reelected. We would never get anything done.
The only thing that would invoke a huge Senate response equal to that against
the Gracchi, IMO, would be an attack against the Religio which we have sworn
to protect.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Clients and Patrons
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:47:50 -0700

Salve Tite Octavi!

Gratias multas for sharing your genuine experience.
Gens Octavia is a long-standing and extremely
well-respected Gens in Nova Roma. Marce Octavi
is one of our most respected and consummate Romans!
Am glad that your experience has been so positive
and that you both are gaining so much from it.

Bene vale,
Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: from@-------- [mailto:from@--------]On Behalf Of Kristoffer
From
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 2:29 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Clients and Patrons

<snipped>

Salve,

Mostly since we are a bit uncomfortable with the term due to recent
debates, and since (I'm sure) not all of us consider the relationship
between ourself and our "mentor" a client/patron one, but simply
friendship. In roman terms, however, I'd probably be forced to
acknowledge that I am, indeed, the client of the person who recruited me
to Nova Roma in the first place.

<snipped>

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Clients and Patrons
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:54:14 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Oppi Flacce,

> Marce Octavi
> is one of our most respected and consummate Romans!
> Am glad that your experience has been so positive
> and that you both are gaining so much from it.

Thanks, but I believe Titus Octavius was referring to his countryman
Caeso Fabius Quintillanus, the new Propraetor.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Patron/Client -One client's real view...
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 23:55:40 +0200 (CEST)

Salvete, romani quirites.

I, Gnaeus Salix Astur, announce that I also seek a
patron. I can offer my experience as a computer
programmer and a telecomm engineering student. But
mostly, I offer my will to work and enthusiasm (both
can be corrobored on this very same list).

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Protocivis romanus.

_______________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Apologies to Titus Octavius Pius and Caeso Fabius
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:05:08 -0700

Salvete Tite Octavi et Caeso Fabi;

Please accept my sincere apologies for stating the wrong
patronus in my response. I was mistaking your
paterfamilias as being your patron, instead of
it really being Propraetor Caeso Fabius. This was
an unfair assumption my part from reading the
mail.

The sentiment expressed therein though
remains, and I can further add that you have made
a very excellent choice in the clientship of Caeso
Fabi, who is also a tireless worker on behalf
of the Respublica and a consummate Roman.

Best of luck to you both and may the relationship
continue to prosper!

Bene vale,
Oppius

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Clients and Patrons
From:	Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 00:08:59 +0200

Oppius Flaccus Severus wrote:
> Gratias multas for sharing your genuine experience.
> Gens Octavia is a long-standing and extremely
> well-respected Gens in Nova Roma. Marce Octavi
> is one of our most respected and consummate Romans!
> Am glad that your experience has been so positive
> and that you both are gaining so much from it.

Salve, Oppi Flacce.

Thank you for your kind words.

As stated by my paterfamilias, although he has been most helpful and
honorable in welcoming me into gens Octavi, as well as appointing me as
scriba, he is not the citizen to whom I was referring. And as to the
identity of my mentor, that secret is not mine but his to tell. What
kind of client would I be to easily betray the trust of my mentor, in
however minor a way. I'm sure he wouldn't mind me announcing our
"relationship" to the world, and for perspective citizens, it is
probably a simple matter to deduce from previous postings on the main
list.

As this, currently, is not an official bond, I will not make it official
until it is. I just wanted to supply my experience with the matter under
debate.

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consilarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Apologies to Titus Octavius Pius and Caeso Fabius
From:	Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 00:10:27 +0200

Oppius Flaccus Severus wrote:
> Please accept my sincere apologies for stating the wrong
> patronus in my response. I was mistaking your
> paterfamilias as being your patron, instead of
> it really being Propraetor Caeso Fabius. This was
> an unfair assumption my part from reading the
> mail.

Salve, Oppi Flacce.

Apologies accepted. I will not comment on your "current guess".

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consilarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Apologies to Titus Octavius Pius and Caeso Fabius
From:	Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 00:15:37 +0200

Kristoffer From wrote:
> Apologies accepted. I will not comment on your "current guess".

Salve, Oppi Flacce.

Now I must be a bit tired. I read through my first response, and realize
that I was a bit stressed in responding. I offer my apologies to both
you and my paterfamilias, Octavius Germanicus. To you, for accepting
your apology, when there was nothing to forgive. To Marce Octavi, since
my acceptance of your apology meant me stating it to be an insult to be
a client of his.

Please forgive me. I blame sleep deprivation and caffeine, as always.

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consilarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Apologies to Titus Octavius Pius and Caeso Fabius
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:24:30 -0700

Salve Tite Octavi;

Gratias multas! Please be assured that there's no
harm done. You were simply respecting your bond and
that's extremely commendable.

As far as caffeine, I have a very active 2-year old plus
a couple of project deadlines that are keeping on caffeine
as well. Currently, I'm existing on a double latte and two
glasses of ice tea :-)

Bene vale,
-Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: from@-------- [mailto:from@--------]On Behalf Of
Kristoffer From
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 3:16 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Apologies to Titus Octavius Pius and Caeso Fabius

Kristoffer From wrote:
> Apologies accepted. I will not comment on your "current guess".

Salve, Oppi Flacce.

Now I must be a bit tired. I read through my first response, and realize
that I was a bit stressed in responding. I offer my apologies to both
you and my paterfamilias, Octavius Germanicus. To you, for accepting
your apology, when there was nothing to forgive. To Marce Octavi, since
my acceptance of your apology meant me stating it to be an insult to be
a client of his.

Please forgive me. I blame sleep deprivation and caffeine, as always.

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consilarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Politics - what else
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 00:17:29 +0200 (CEST)

Salvete, romani quirites; et salve, Fabie Maxime.

--- QFabiusMax@-------- escribió: > In a message dated
4/10/2001 2:07:27 PM Pacific
> Daylight Time,
> salixastur@-------- writes:
>
> << I would suggest to concentrate on the tribunate
> of the
> Gracchi brothers (133-123 BCE), where the strongest
> reformist movement of the Republic was defeated.
> Basically, the arguments behind the dispute were
> the
> ones you have just mentioned. And the reform was
> defeated not by strength, ideas or oratory. It was
> a
> short-sightedness installed in the Roman people
> what
> defeated the reform.
> >>
> Salvete
> Good point. However the reform threatened the
> landed aristocracy, and that
> is why the reaction was so extreme. Anytime you
> screw with a man's livelihood
> you get a reaction. Besides if we believe
> Ploutarkhos, the Gracchi were
> utilizing a populist movement to gain power, since
> they had been denied it
> through other means. They are portrayed as corrupt
> as any other Roman
> magistrate of the period.
>

Probably you're right. I was not expressing my opinion
on the Gracchi brothers (besides, a very prestigious
Italian historian, Indro Montanelli, would not agree
with Plutarcus). I was expressing my opinion on some
of the reforms they wanted to install. When they
reached the Tribunate, they tried to pass three main
issues:

1.- The famous landbill you refer to (a law that
limited the area of land a single citizen could own).
This alienated the patrician class from which the
Gracchi came from.

2.- A law for the expansion of the Senate. They wanted
to include in the Senate new "elected" senators, which
would have been elected by the Comitia Tributa and
would have stayed just one year in charge. This
attempt to "democratize" the Senate earned them the
hate of both the Senatorial and Equestre class, who
held the Senate as their turf.

3.- A law which awarded citizenship to all the
inhabitants of Latium. This granted them the
indifference of the common Roman citizen, eager to
keep their privileges as Roman citizens to themselves.

Most historians agree (a posteriori) that these laws
would have meant a continuation of the "democratic"
struggle in Rome; they led the direction towards the
creation of a "modern" state. Alas, after the murder
of the Gracchi, it was social turmoil and civil war
that ensued, ending in the solidification of the statu
quo that the Principate meant (and, as chaos theory
teaches us today, the intention to mantain the statu
quo in a complex system leads to the destruction of
that system, both by inner and outer forces).

> The only thing that would invoke a huge Senate
> response equal to that against
> the Gracchi, IMO, would be an attack against the
> Religio which we have sworn
> to protect.
>

And I would stand with the Senate in that struggle,
for I believe that the Religio Romana is not only
basic to the idea of Rome herself, but it also is a
faith worth both protection and respect.

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Protocivis romanus.

_______________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Romanitas sive Amerikanitas?
From:	acadienerrant@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:40:55 -0000

Salvete Omnes,

Since the Hydra seems to have awakened once again, I wanted to say a
word, before lapsing back into a state of silent disbelief at the
recurrent preposterous inanity of certain arguments.

First, to those of my fellow citizens who came to Nova Roma seeking a
haven for emulating the ancient Virtues of Rome and for a resurgent
Romanitas that would not seem to our Forefathers like some mutant
monstrosity in a makeshift toga, I offer my support and my fraternal
greeting.

To some others, I would ask, with all due respect: When did
"Cinaeditas" enter into the table of the Virtues? Or is the alleged
honouring the Roman Virtues only applicable insofar as these
foundations of civilisation can be twisted and debased to conform
with modern "sensibilities" and the current barbarism which passes as
"social enlightenment"? I submit that, based on several posts I have
read, the concept of re-establishing and reasserting the Roman
Virtues -- and of Romanitas in general -- is not only irrelevant to
the designs of certain individuals who continue to nest in the
rafters, but is actually at odds with those machinations.

Valete,
Acadianus Draco

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] NR in Germany
From:	"Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:36:54 -0400

Salve,

Just out of curiosity, are you going to the GTA (Grafenwhoehr Training
Area)? I was stationed in Vilseck for 3-1/2 years - I left in '99.

Vale,

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Legatus of Massachusetts

P.S. If you are going to the GTA, say "Guten Tag" to the Boar-Hogs for me!
~_^

-----Original Message-----
From: gcassiusnerva@-------- [mailto:gcassiusnerva@--------]
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 2:05 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] NR in Germany

Do any Nova Romans live in the area of Grafenwoehr? I will be leaving for
there this Saturday and will be there for just under three weeks. Please
email me.

Gaius Cassius Nerva

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Nova Britannia Chat!
From:	"Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:52:04 -0400

Salvete Omnes!

Just a reminder that the weekly Nova Britannia chat will be held tomorrow
evening from 21:00 - 22:00 (EST or GMT -5:00) in the Nova Britannia mailing
list chat room at is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NovaBritannia/chat I
encourage all Nova Britanniae to stop in and say hello (any other interested
cives are welcome, of course!).

Also, I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but if there are any Nova
Britanniae out there who are subscribed to the main list, and still have not
subscribed to the Nova Britannia list, please do!!! If for no other reason
than allowing me to stop annoying everyone by posting provincial business on
the main list! ~_^

Valete Respectfully,

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Legatus of Massachusetts

ICQ# 27924742
Yahoo Messenger: gaius_minucius_hadrianus

"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." - Vegetius

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: A Boy Named Sue
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 23:52:47 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, QFabiusMax@a... wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> So if you want to change your name in Georgia, to a different
gender, it
> costs $25.00?
>
> That's cheap. When you change your name to that of a feminine
persuasion,
> we will change your official Latin name here in NR to reflect that.
> There, problem solved. Can we get back to taxes?
>
> Valete,
> Q. Fabius Maximus

LOL,

I would be far more likely to change my Macro national name to Lucius
Sicinius Drusus. I'm quite comfortable with my gender.

Frankly I bored of this whole sex name fiascio, and I'd welcomwe a
vote in the comitia to (hopefuly) settle it once and for all. I've
spoken my mind on this matter and I don't intend to discuss it any futher.

I'm quite ready to continue the discussion on taxes, and as matter of
fact I made TWO posts this morning and one of them concerned taxes.
The sex post recived replies, my question regarding taxes did NOT.

I'll repeat it now.
Nova Roma is a Non Profit Corporation chartered under New Hampshire
law. I have served on a NPC chartered under Georgia law and am aware
of what I had to do in the way of making reports to members of the NPC
regarding all revenues and expenses.

I'm not familar with the laws in Hew Hampshire however. Since some
citizens have expressed an unease at what may happen to thier tax
money, I would like to know what will be required of Nova Roma as far
as the Macro national laws of the State of New Hampshire are concerned.

IF New Hampshire laws are strict and contain the criminal penalities
the the Micro Nation of Nova Roma isn't able to enforce, then the
citizens uneasy about providing taxes because of problems they
observed in thier Macro Nation may be more willing to support the tax
plan.

As for myself I have allready stated my support. On Sunday Morning I
made a $US 25.00 donation to Nova Roma to show my willingness to pay
my taxes. I issused a challenge at that time asking that others show
thier support in a similar matter sugesting a $US 12.00 donation. That
Post only recived TWO replies, and that leaves me wondering just how
much support for taxes there really is.

Lucius Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] RE: A boy named Sue
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 18:41:35 -0500

10 Apr 2001

Salve All

There is also an edict that was promulgated about honesty. So if it was
uncovered that someone did lie on their application there are avenues
that are open for the magistrates of Nova Roma to act.

Also, if one lies it deems this organization to the level of a
game...does it not?

Vale

Quintus Sertorius

Queastor
Nova Roma
Propraetor
Canada Occidentalis

Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma

Join the egroup for Canada Occidentalis
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NR_CanOcc

Join the egroup for the Quintus Sertorius of Old Rome
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sertorii

----- Original Message -----
From: "Devry, Mark (Packaging House Auckland)"
<mark.devry@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 4:15 PM
Subject: [novaroma] RE: A boy named Sue

> Two Points on this. I believe that below is the offending Edict?
>
>
>
> XX. - A citizen who wishes to change the gender of his name counter to
that
> dictated by his sex must present, in support of his application, proof of
> acceptance of the contrary sex by an authority of a macronation, state,
or
> municipality. In other words, if the applicant is physically a man and
has
> a form of macronational or municipal identification listing his sex as
> female, or is officially recognized as a woman in his country of
> macronational citizenship, then he may use a feminine name in Nova Roma.
> i) - An exception to this rule is allowed in the case of transsexual
> citizens who are discussing surgical sex alteration with a health care
> provider or undergoing other medical and psychological treatment in
> preparation for such an operation. In these instances, documentation
> pertaining to health care provider(s) may be required of the applicant.
> ii) - Post-operative transsexual citizens shall be named according to
their
> current sex.
> iii) - Hermaphrodites shall be named according to the sex in which they
are
> recognized by their country of macronational citizenship.
>
>
> 1> It is unenforcable anyway. If someone really wants to change their
sex,
> they just need to re-apply for citizenship as a new citizen and let their
> previous "persona" lapse into inactivity or activly resign citizenship.
> Nova Roma could moniter all addresses that register, rather than all
people,
> but (a) if a brother and sister use the same Internet Server to enroll it
> would flag them and (b) it is easy enough to change service providers
unless
> you live in a third world country like Australia. (sorry - just kidding).
> To be honest, it does lead into a whole question of internet safety and
> perhaps a smarter way of doing things would be to provide in the "Welcome
to
> Nova Roma" email from the censors we all get when we join Nova Roma is to
> add a little "Internet Safety Tip" - stating that (a) "Just because a
person
> has a masculine / feminine name doesn't mean they are in real life a man /
> woman." and (b) "Although we would all like to trust all citizens and
> believe that they are all honest, Prudentia is a virtue. If you wish to
> meet face to face someone you meet through Nova Roma - do so in a public
> place and preferably bring a friend just in case they are a bit dodgy."
>
> 2> Has anyone other than myself noted that the language in the edict
reads
> "A citizen who wishes to change the gender of his name counter to that
> dictated by his sex must present..." So if a citizen wishes to change the
> gender of HER name counter to..." it is o.k.?
> Sorry to be picky.
>
> So weather or not section XX gets passed or not - it won't stop someone
who
> wants to (a) do something like frudulantly pretent to be a woman to get a
> FTF meeting with another woman with a view to a sexual assault etc and (b)
> anyone who is really uncomfortable with their virtual personas gender.
The
> only way to stop this would be to make EVERY Citizen porvide proof of
their
> gender as part of an application and that would be pretty heavy.
>
> Sorry. You are all probably bored of this thread and I did get a bit off
> topic.
> I ask the Censors to forgive me.
>
> Always a servent of Roma
> Marcus Sentius Accipiter.
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>

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