Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] RE: A boy named Sue
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 20:05:59 EDT

Salve Quintus,

I think the best we can do is vote for the edict this summer, whenever
it comes up for a vote. And persuade through email as many as possible to
do the same.

Nerva

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A boy named Sue: Sorry!
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 20:07:14 EDT

That last note to Quintus Sertorius was supposed to be email. Oh
well....Sorry Quintus!

Nerva

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: A Boy Named Sue
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 18:52:28 -0500

Oppius and I are the two that will be making the additional donations, come
on those of you that can afford it, cause I know I can't but I am anyway(the
wife said I could do it!!!). I will post in my experience paying, so others
can see what it is about.

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: <lsicinius@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 6:52 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: A Boy Named Sue

> --- In novaroma@--------, QFabiusMax@a... wrote:
> > Salvete,
> >
> > So if you want to change your name in Georgia, to a different
> gender, it
> > costs $25.00?
> >
> > That's cheap. When you change your name to that of a feminine
> persuasion,
> > we will change your official Latin name here in NR to reflect that.
> > There, problem solved. Can we get back to taxes?
> >
> > Valete,
> > Q. Fabius Maximus
>
> LOL,
>
> I would be far more likely to change my Macro national name to Lucius
> Sicinius Drusus. I'm quite comfortable with my gender.
>
> Frankly I bored of this whole sex name fiascio, and I'd welcomwe a
> vote in the comitia to (hopefuly) settle it once and for all. I've
> spoken my mind on this matter and I don't intend to discuss it any futher.
>
> I'm quite ready to continue the discussion on taxes, and as matter of
> fact I made TWO posts this morning and one of them concerned taxes.
> The sex post recived replies, my question regarding taxes did NOT.
>
> I'll repeat it now.
> Nova Roma is a Non Profit Corporation chartered under New Hampshire
> law. I have served on a NPC chartered under Georgia law and am aware
> of what I had to do in the way of making reports to members of the NPC
> regarding all revenues and expenses.
>
> I'm not familar with the laws in Hew Hampshire however. Since some
> citizens have expressed an unease at what may happen to thier tax
> money, I would like to know what will be required of Nova Roma as far
> as the Macro national laws of the State of New Hampshire are concerned.
>
> IF New Hampshire laws are strict and contain the criminal penalities
> the the Micro Nation of Nova Roma isn't able to enforce, then the
> citizens uneasy about providing taxes because of problems they
> observed in thier Macro Nation may be more willing to support the tax
> plan.
>
> As for myself I have allready stated my support. On Sunday Morning I
> made a $US 25.00 donation to Nova Roma to show my willingness to pay
> my taxes. I issused a challenge at that time asking that others show
> thier support in a similar matter sugesting a $US 12.00 donation. That
> Post only recived TWO replies, and that leaves me wondering just how
> much support for taxes there really is.
>
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Patron/Client -One client's real view...
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 18:53:18 -0500

Good for you Gnaeus!

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Patron/Client -One client's real view...

> Salvete, romani quirites.
>
> I, Gnaeus Salix Astur, announce that I also seek a
> patron. I can offer my experience as a computer
> programmer and a telecomm engineering student. But
> mostly, I offer my will to work and enthusiasm (both
> can be corrobored on this very same list).
>
>
>
> =====
> Bene Valete!
> Gnaeus Salix Astur.
> Protocivis romanus.
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Envía mensajes instantáneos y recibe alertas de correo con
> Yahoo! Messenger - http://messenger.yahoo.es
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: A Boy Named Sue
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:12:03 +1000

Ave Lucius Sicinius Drusus

Is NOVA resident in New Hampshire - isn't NOVA a world based organisation,
given that it has representation in the Senate from a number of Countries -
why New Hampshire ... have not we out grown this .... if the laws are so
draconian than perhaps we should consider registering it elsewhere - after
reading some of our laws and constitution, we have more than enough
competence in this organisation to draft and govern our own laws to ensure
good corporate governance.

Should not we register it elsewhere ??? We should not be bothered by macro
laws of some US State.

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: lsicinius@-------- [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, 11 April 2001 9:53 Am
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Re: A Boy Named Sue

--- In novaroma@--------, QFabiusMax@a... wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> So if you want to change your name in Georgia, to a different
gender, it
> costs $25.00?
>
> That's cheap. When you change your name to that of a feminine
persuasion,
> we will change your official Latin name here in NR to reflect that.
> There, problem solved. Can we get back to taxes?
>
> Valete,
> Q. Fabius Maximus

LOL,

I would be far more likely to change my Macro national name to Lucius
Sicinius Drusus. I'm quite comfortable with my gender.

Frankly I bored of this whole sex name fiascio, and I'd welcomwe a
vote in the comitia to (hopefuly) settle it once and for all. I've
spoken my mind on this matter and I don't intend to discuss it any futher.

I'm quite ready to continue the discussion on taxes, and as matter of
fact I made TWO posts this morning and one of them concerned taxes.
The sex post recived replies, my question regarding taxes did NOT.

I'll repeat it now.
Nova Roma is a Non Profit Corporation chartered under New Hampshire
law. I have served on a NPC chartered under Georgia law and am aware
of what I had to do in the way of making reports to members of the NPC
regarding all revenues and expenses.

I'm not familar with the laws in Hew Hampshire however. Since some
citizens have expressed an unease at what may happen to thier tax
money, I would like to know what will be required of Nova Roma as far
as the Macro national laws of the State of New Hampshire are concerned.

IF New Hampshire laws are strict and contain the criminal penalities
the the Micro Nation of Nova Roma isn't able to enforce, then the
citizens uneasy about providing taxes because of problems they
observed in thier Macro Nation may be more willing to support the tax
plan.

As for myself I have allready stated my support. On Sunday Morning I
made a $US 25.00 donation to Nova Roma to show my willingness to pay
my taxes. I issused a challenge at that time asking that others show
thier support in a similar matter sugesting a $US 12.00 donation. That
Post only recived TWO replies, and that leaves me wondering just how
much support for taxes there really is.

Lucius Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] RE: A boy named Sue
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 18:57:05 -0500

Yes good point, many others will do the same, and pass this.

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: <gcassiusnerva@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] RE: A boy named Sue

> Salve Quintus,
>
> I think the best we can do is vote for the edict this summer,
whenever
> it comes up for a vote. And persuade through email as many as possible
to
> do the same.
>
> Nerva
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Replies
From:	"Een verdoold zieltje" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 02:15:11 +0200

Salvete Quirites of Nova Roma,

After a brief period of consideration, I've come to this Forum once more.
I'll try to reply shortly to a few things said here recently.

First off, I want to address all those who talk which such utter admirance
of our Glorious State That Needs To Be Governed Well. Forgive me my sarcasm,
but as I once analyzed before for myself, of the 800 citizens, a small half
has the main list, about half of those bother to vote, a slight half of
those bothers to talk, half of those is overloaded with titles, and the
final half effectively °does° something other than talking (about 25
citizens, that is). And that "doing" is mainly record keeping, governing and
legislating. So far for the cultural revival of NR, while all we seem to be
so concerned about is titlemongering and social reconstruction of tightly
hierarchic structures. Many of those so-called powerful citizens, by the
way, don't even know decent Latin (and that after being a citizen for more
than 2 years), which is a shame for our ancestors. Wake up and smell the
coffee, citizens!

You won't hear me saying some people aren't different, and it's most likely
those people who will feel truly insulted. My apologies to those people.

Secondly. People °voluntaring° to have patroni? It's your choice citizens,
but remember, if you're knee-deep in corruption it'll be your own fault.

On to other business...

Nerva scripsit:

> Lucia Maria Peregrina and Apollonius Formosanus,
>
> Please show us the law which requires citizens to address a woman as if
she
> were a man.
>
> And Draco, if you are reading this, this ludicrous attempt to shove
> "politically correct" rubbish down the throats of the rest of us is a
perfect
> example of social engineering.

Nerva, be so kind as to show me a law that requires a man to be addressed as
one. Social engineering? I think not. Courtesy and politness, respecting
someone's very modest wishes, that's what's this about.

Graecus scripsit:

> Fellow citizens of Nova Roma, do you see what I mean? These people's bet
is
> to sink Nova Roma into sexuality discussions deviating it from its main
> scope. Consider this: any people interested on Rome or its history will
not
> become citizens once they find out that Nova Roma is nothing but a site
> devoted to sexuality discussions.
> And I tell you... These people will only shut their mouths up after the
> enraged people of Nova Roma tells them to do so.
>
> Citizens of Nova Roma, the power lies with you. If you want Nova Roma to
> focus on Romanitas, please post to this list asking these respectful
ladies
> and gentlemen to stop the transgender issue.
> If, on the other hand you want to finish the work of those who recently
left
> and prefer to aim at destroying or deviating Nova Roma, please do as these
> respectful ladies and gentlemen ask you to do, keep theese sexual debates,
> send postings against the Senate, crucify Censor Sulla and his supporter
> Quintus Fabius Maximus, burn the Consuls alive, insult the rest of the
> magistrates, and finish your job by cursing the Roman Gods once again!

Where do you get that opinion that it is people's target to °destroy° NR
because they have views that you don't agree with? Argue with logic rather
than persuavive sermoning, please. And I truly cannot believe that people
are agreeing with this hysterical, baseless talk. If you want this thread to
end, present your reasons rather than "I don't like it", or "Has been said
before". If the latter is the case, it proves that the one's in their ivory
towers haven't been listening hard enough.

Quintus Sertorius scripsit:

> Also, if one lies it deems this organization to the level of a
> game...does it not?

I could not agree more with this good man.

Valete bene, Quirites
Sextus Apollonius Draco,
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
Darkling_Crawler, Yahoo IM

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Patron/Client -One client's real view...
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:43:20 -0500

Salve Oppi Flacce

> After reasoned requests by Consul Germanice et
> Pompeia Cornelia -and after much consideration;
> it seemed that it might be beneficial to actually
> share the experiences of real-life client -me.

Thank you for sharing your experience with us. What you described was
not, however, the historical version of the patronus-cliens
relationship. You described a pair of friendly people trading favors in
a relatively structured way. I have no problem with that, especially
since you are constrained only by your loyalty to a friend to support L
Cornelius' causes. (However, I must say that my opinion would be rather
different if the offer were, say, an offer of support for getting into
the Senate in return for attempting to damage your patron's opponents.)

In Roma Antiqua, a cliens did not have that choice in any meaningful way
unless he attached himself to another patronus. The cliens' obligations
to the patronus were recognized by law, and a cliens could suffer more
than simply his patronus' ire if he went his own way. It is this aspect
of clientela to which I object most strenuously.

Vale
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach
conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant."
-Helen Keller

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: A Boy Named Sue
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 00:52:25 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@r...> wrote:
> Ave Lucius Sicinius Drusus
>
> Is NOVA resident in New Hampshire - isn't NOVA a world based
organisation,
> given that it has representation in the Senate from a number of
Countries -
> why New Hampshire ... have not we out grown this .... if the laws are so
> draconian than perhaps we should consider registering it elsewhere -
after
> reading some of our laws and constitution, we have more than enough
> competence in this organisation to draft and govern our own laws to
ensure
> good corporate governance.
>
> Should not we register it elsewhere ??? We should not be bothered
by macro
> laws of some US State.
>
> Marcus Sentius Claudius
>
>

Salvete,
Leagal incorparation provides certain protections for Nova Roma's
Citizens. As an example if a legal enity called Nova Roma didn't exist
then the person who filed for the domain "www.novaroma.org" would own
it as his personal properity and could sell it at any time he wished
to do so. Since the domain has been transfered to Nova Roma inc. this
can't be done. The same goes for the trademark on the flag.

On the matter of taxes I certainly would NOT be willing to pay tax
money to a private indiviual. Without the legal structure of a NPC
that is what you would be doing, and that indiviual could do as he
pleased with the money.

At some future date Consul Nemo may decide to convert the Nova Roman
treasury into a new den for his house. If Nova Roma is incorparated we
would have the option of forcing Nemo to face Macro National Law for
these actions. Under Nova Roman law the most we could do is banish him
for life, and frankly I don't think Nemo would care.

As to the location where Nova Roma is incorprated, That is a matter of
little concern to me, as long as the laws regarding NPCs are strict
and provide protection for the members (citizens) of the corparation.

Nova Roma's articles of incorpration are at
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/articles.html

Valete
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Corrections
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 02:45:27 +0200

Salve Nova Roma,

Uh, it's truly getting late for me isn't it - just wanted to correct "which" which should have been "with" and that it should be "volunteerily" instead of "voluntarily" in my previous posting, plus my "from"-field contained the wrong name.

Thanks for understanding.

Vale bene,
Draco

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: A Boy Named Sue
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 11:06:38 +1000

You totally miss the point, we can still have an incorporated entity, but it
does not need to be US based/resident. Think outside of the box.

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: lsicinius@-------- [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, 11 April 2001 10:52 Am
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Re: A Boy Named Sue

--- In novaroma@--------, Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@r...> wrote:
> Ave Lucius Sicinius Drusus
>
> Is NOVA resident in New Hampshire - isn't NOVA a world based
organisation,
> given that it has representation in the Senate from a number of
Countries -
> why New Hampshire ... have not we out grown this .... if the laws are so
> draconian than perhaps we should consider registering it elsewhere -
after
> reading some of our laws and constitution, we have more than enough
> competence in this organisation to draft and govern our own laws to
ensure
> good corporate governance.
>
> Should not we register it elsewhere ??? We should not be bothered
by macro
> laws of some US State.
>
> Marcus Sentius Claudius
>
>

Salvete,
Leagal incorparation provides certain protections for Nova Roma's
Citizens. As an example if a legal enity called Nova Roma didn't exist
then the person who filed for the domain "www.novaroma.org" would own
it as his personal properity and could sell it at any time he wished
to do so. Since the domain has been transfered to Nova Roma inc. this
can't be done. The same goes for the trademark on the flag.

On the matter of taxes I certainly would NOT be willing to pay tax
money to a private indiviual. Without the legal structure of a NPC
that is what you would be doing, and that indiviual could do as he
pleased with the money.

At some future date Consul Nemo may decide to convert the Nova Roman
treasury into a new den for his house. If Nova Roma is incorparated we
would have the option of forcing Nemo to face Macro National Law for
these actions. Under Nova Roman law the most we could do is banish him
for life, and frankly I don't think Nemo would care.

As to the location where Nova Roma is incorprated, That is a matter of
little concern to me, as long as the laws regarding NPCs are strict
and provide protection for the members (citizens) of the corparation.

Nova Roma's articles of incorpration are at
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/articles.html

Valete
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Clients et Patrons
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 01:07:10 -0000

Salvete Oppius Flaccus et Omnes:

Let me state publically that I admire your forthrightness and
sincerity, Oppius.

Valete,
Pompeia Cornelia

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: A Boy Named Sue
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 20:14:44 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Marce Senti,

> You totally miss the point, we can still have an incorporated entity, but it
> does not need to be US based/resident. Think outside of the box.

But it has to be incorporated *somewhere*, and unless the laws are
hugely different elsewhere, enough so to make it worthwhile, it makes
sense to do it in a location relatively convenient for most of
the senior magistrates at the time of incorporation.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: A Boy Named Sue
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 01:33:22 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@r...> wrote:
> You totally miss the point, we can still have an incorporated
entity, but it
> does not need to be US based/resident. Think outside of the box.
>
>
>
> Marcus Sentius Claudius
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lsicinius@-------- [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, 11 April 2001 10:52 Am
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: A Boy Named Sue
>
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@r...> wrote:
> > Ave Lucius Sicinius Drusus
> >
> > Is NOVA resident in New Hampshire - isn't NOVA a world based
> organisation,
> > given that it has representation in the Senate from a number of
> Countries -
> > why New Hampshire ... have not we out grown this .... if the laws
are so
> > draconian than perhaps we should consider registering it elsewhere -
> after
> > reading some of our laws and constitution, we have more than enough
> > competence in this organisation to draft and govern our own laws to
> ensure
> > good corporate governance.
> >
> > Should not we register it elsewhere ??? We should not be bothered
> by macro
> > laws of some US State.
> >
> > Marcus Sentius Claudius
> >
> >
>

SNIP

> As to the location where Nova Roma is incorprated, That is a matter of
> little concern to me, as long as the laws regarding NPCs are strict
> and provide protection for the members (citizens) of the corparation.

SNIP
>
> Valete
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Salve Marcus Sentius,

Please reread the section of my post I didn't snip. I would have no
personal objection to incorpration in Oz or Europe as long as the laws
provideed me with protection. For the time being since most of our
Senators and Magistrates are US residents we recive better protection
by having US incorpration. It's much easier to extradite someone from
one US State to another than it is to extradite them to Oz or Europe.
Beyond that matter I truly don't care which Macro Nation Nova Roma is
incorprated in as long as that nation has strict laws regarding NPCs,
and when Nova Roma becomes more international rest assured you will
have my support if switching incorpration to another nation if it will
provide our citizens with more protection.

Vale,
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Replies
From:	Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 04:13:32 +0200

Sextus Apollonius Draco wrote:
> So far for the cultural revival of NR, while all we seem to be
> so concerned about is titlemongering and social reconstruction of tightly
> hierarchic structures. Many of those so-called powerful citizens, by the
> way, don't even know decent Latin (and that after being a citizen for more
> than 2 years), which is a shame for our ancestors. Wake up and smell the
> coffee, citizens!

Salve, Sextus Apollonius Draco.

I must admit to not knowing decent latin myself, nor will I likely find
the time to learn in the next two years. Admittedly, I am interested in
learning latin, and thus the odds of my doing so are slightly better
than the average citizen, who might be interested in roman society,
history, and the Nova Roman ideals, without wanting to learn a dead
language to appease traditionalists.

After all, latin is dead, and even though we employ latin words and
phrases for various Nova Roman concepts in honor of our predecessors, I
fail to see in what manner a citizen is any less devoted to Nova Roma if
he between his work hours, family life, and work on Nova Roma, fails to
master the latin language within two years of joining.

I mean, most romans didn't learn it that well in less than three...:)

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consilarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] A Boy Named Sue
From:	Ira Adams <iadams@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:31:10 -0500

Salve noble Graecus

You too make an excellent point. No-one in Nova Roma is interested in any
sex change as far as I know. The only ones to raise that issue have been
the Censores, who wrote an edict about it. It has no relevance to
anything that has arisen in Nova Roma, so let them take it away and we
can be rid of it.

But then, on the other hand, neither has anyone here been talking about
wanting sexual partners or having sexual frustrations, so where are you
coming from with those complaints?

Strange how topics get distorted here.

Vale,

L. Sergius Australicus Obst.

On 4/10/01 10:09 AM Antonio Grilo (amg@--------) wrote:

>Salvete
>
>While I consider all kind of people as my equals irrespective of sexual
>orientation, race, religion, etc, I'm really tired of these arguments about
>sex change within Nova Roma. Please all of you interested on the discussion
>of sexual orientation, etc. choose another site from among the available on
>the Web. A good one is
>http://www.shemale.com/
>
>All of you who want to get sexual partners or simply talk about your
>frustrations, there are a lot of dedicated IRC channels, mailing lists,
>Message Boards, etc.
>Violations of human rights, intolerance, etc. are also dealt with by
>macronational organisations and authorities.
>
>But please take this subject out from Nova Roma once and for all! We are
>here for Romanitas, not for Sexualitas.
>
>Valete omnes
>Antonius Gryllus Graecus
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] IM database
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 20:43:46 -0700

Ave,

This is a reminder that if you have any IM programs that you use, please
send me an email so that it can be included in our Instant Messaging
Database. This database is accessible if you click on the Forum Romanum
link on the www.novaroma.org/main.html. Thank you for your time and
convenience in this matter.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:45:39 +1000

Salvete

I cannot understand how a little country of Australia has 29 Citizens and no
Senators, whilst Britania has 36 Citizens - yet has a lot of Senators. I am
new to this (obviously) and I am going to work this voting thing out
(eventually) - I am sure it will be a good and exciting lesson in History
for me...

I am also planning a get together of fellow Citizens in Victoria Australia,
so if anyone if out there who is interested they can email me at
mark_a_bird@-------- or at home on markbird@waterbyrdfilmz.com.au.

If anyone has any ideas on what people usually do at these gatherings, let
me also know as any help would be appreciated.

Valete,

Marcus Sentius Claudius

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
**********************************************************************

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 20:48:26 -0700

Ave,

Just a minor correction, Britannia has no Senators in Nova Roma. You can
check this information by clicking on the following link:
http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/provinciae

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 8:45 PM
Subject: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ

> Salvete
>
> I cannot understand how a little country of Australia has 29 Citizens and
no
> Senators, whilst Britania has 36 Citizens - yet has a lot of Senators. I
am
> new to this (obviously) and I am going to work this voting thing out
> (eventually) - I am sure it will be a good and exciting lesson in History
> for me...
>
> I am also planning a get together of fellow Citizens in Victoria
Australia,
> so if anyone if out there who is interested they can email me at
> mark_a_bird@-------- or at home on markbird@waterbyrdfilmz.com.au.
>
> If anyone has any ideas on what people usually do at these gatherings, let
> me also know as any help would be appreciated.
>
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Sentius Claudius
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> **********************************************************************
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.
>
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
> for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
> **********************************************************************
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:53:39 +1000

I am sorry - I feel so stupid - heavens - why would I have thought Nova
Britannia to be Britannia

As they say in Oz, only in America....(only joking)...

-----Original Message-----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix [mailto:alexious@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, 11 April 2001 1:48 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ

Ave,

Just a minor correction, Britannia has no Senators in Nova Roma. You can
check this information by clicking on the following link:
http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/provinciae

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 8:45 PM
Subject: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ

> Salvete
>
> I cannot understand how a little country of Australia has 29 Citizens and
no
> Senators, whilst Britania has 36 Citizens - yet has a lot of Senators. I
am
> new to this (obviously) and I am going to work this voting thing out
> (eventually) - I am sure it will be a good and exciting lesson in History
> for me...
>
> I am also planning a get together of fellow Citizens in Victoria
Australia,
> so if anyone if out there who is interested they can email me at
> mark_a_bird@-------- or at home on markbird@waterbyrdfilmz.com.au.
>
> If anyone has any ideas on what people usually do at these gatherings, let
> me also know as any help would be appreciated.
>
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Sentius Claudius
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> **********************************************************************
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.
>
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
> for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
> **********************************************************************
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:56:08 +1000

Hey "dito" - Nova Britannia - 36 Citizens - Oz 29 ??>>>>

-----Original Message-----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix [mailto:alexious@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, 11 April 2001 1:48 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ

Ave,

Just a minor correction, Britannia has no Senators in Nova Roma. You can
check this information by clicking on the following link:
http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/provinciae

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 8:45 PM
Subject: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ

> Salvete
>
> I cannot understand how a little country of Australia has 29 Citizens and
no
> Senators, whilst Britania has 36 Citizens - yet has a lot of Senators. I
am
> new to this (obviously) and I am going to work this voting thing out
> (eventually) - I am sure it will be a good and exciting lesson in History
> for me...
>
> I am also planning a get together of fellow Citizens in Victoria
Australia,
> so if anyone if out there who is interested they can email me at
> mark_a_bird@-------- or at home on markbird@waterbyrdfilmz.com.au.
>
> If anyone has any ideas on what people usually do at these gatherings, let
> me also know as any help would be appreciated.
>
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Sentius Claudius
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> **********************************************************************
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.
>
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
> for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
> **********************************************************************
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 20:59:20 -0700

Oh, Nova Britannia...thats different...the reason why there are so many
senators in Nova Britannia, Mediatlantica and for that matter California, is
that is where Nova Roma really developed from.

Our founders are both in Nova Britannia and Mediatlantica....and Senator Q.
Fabius and I are from California. See, when Nova Roma was first founded,
it was based back East (in the United States). Since then Nova Roma has
grown dramatically. But, the political officers, for the most part, have
been in Nova Roma for a very long time. It wasnt til last year, during the
Consulship of Q.Fabius and M. Municius that the Consulship were held by
citizens who were not apart of Nova Roma since Nova Roma began. Also,
another interesting fact is that both Senator Fabius and Senator Municius
were originally Plebians who were co-opted into the Patrician Class.

I hope that answers your questions, if you have any other, please feel free
to ask.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 8:53 PM
Subject: RE: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ

> I am sorry - I feel so stupid - heavens - why would I have thought Nova
> Britannia to be Britannia
>
> As they say in Oz, only in America....(only joking)...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix [mailto:alexious@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, 11 April 2001 1:48 Pm
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
>
>
> Ave,
>
> Just a minor correction, Britannia has no Senators in Nova Roma. You can
> check this information by clicking on the following link:
> http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/provinciae
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Censor
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 8:45 PM
> Subject: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
>
>
> > Salvete
> >
> > I cannot understand how a little country of Australia has 29 Citizens
and
> no
> > Senators, whilst Britania has 36 Citizens - yet has a lot of Senators.
I
> am
> > new to this (obviously) and I am going to work this voting thing out
> > (eventually) - I am sure it will be a good and exciting lesson in
History
> > for me...
> >
> > I am also planning a get together of fellow Citizens in Victoria
> Australia,
> > so if anyone if out there who is interested they can email me at
> > mark_a_bird@-------- or at home on
markbird@--------
> >
> > If anyone has any ideas on what people usually do at these gatherings,
let
> > me also know as any help would be appreciated.
> >
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Marcus Sentius Claudius
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> > **********************************************************************
> > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> > the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.
> >
> > This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
> > for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
> > **********************************************************************
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:19:29 +1000

Ave Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix,

Thanks for the background. What can one say to Citizens who have created
this - THANK YOU !!!

There must be some degree of nervousness about where Nova is going and that
you may be loosing control of some of it, mixed with absolute and extreme
excitement to see it take on an international flare and growing into
something bigger. I do hope we have our own Senator one day in OZ ...>>>>

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix [mailto:alexious@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, 11 April 2001 1:59 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ

Oh, Nova Britannia...thats different...the reason why there are so many
senators in Nova Britannia, Mediatlantica and for that matter California, is
that is where Nova Roma really developed from.

Our founders are both in Nova Britannia and Mediatlantica....and Senator Q.
Fabius and I are from California. See, when Nova Roma was first founded,
it was based back East (in the United States). Since then Nova Roma has
grown dramatically. But, the political officers, for the most part, have
been in Nova Roma for a very long time. It wasnt til last year, during the
Consulship of Q.Fabius and M. Municius that the Consulship were held by
citizens who were not apart of Nova Roma since Nova Roma began. Also,
another interesting fact is that both Senator Fabius and Senator Municius
were originally Plebians who were co-opted into the Patrician Class.

I hope that answers your questions, if you have any other, please feel free
to ask.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 8:53 PM
Subject: RE: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ

> I am sorry - I feel so stupid - heavens - why would I have thought Nova
> Britannia to be Britannia
>
> As they say in Oz, only in America....(only joking)...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix [mailto:alexious@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, 11 April 2001 1:48 Pm
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
>
>
> Ave,
>
> Just a minor correction, Britannia has no Senators in Nova Roma. You can
> check this information by clicking on the following link:
> http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/provinciae
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Censor
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 8:45 PM
> Subject: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
>
>
> > Salvete
> >
> > I cannot understand how a little country of Australia has 29 Citizens
and
> no
> > Senators, whilst Britania has 36 Citizens - yet has a lot of Senators.
I
> am
> > new to this (obviously) and I am going to work this voting thing out
> > (eventually) - I am sure it will be a good and exciting lesson in
History
> > for me...
> >
> > I am also planning a get together of fellow Citizens in Victoria
> Australia,
> > so if anyone if out there who is interested they can email me at
> > mark_a_bird@-------- or at home on
markbird@--------
> >
> > If anyone has any ideas on what people usually do at these gatherings,
let
> > me also know as any help would be appreciated.
> >
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Marcus Sentius Claudius
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> > **********************************************************************
> > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> > the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.
> >
> > This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
> > for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
> > **********************************************************************
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:32:39 -0700

Ave,

My comments below:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 9:19 PM
Subject: RE: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ

> Ave Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix,
>
> Thanks for the background. What can one say to Citizens who have created
> this - THANK YOU !!!

Sure no problem, I highly recommend you examining the archieves..you will
get a Plethora of information there. Granted there is probably 15000
messages..but, really you will learn alot about the history of Nova Roma.
Hopefully one day the archieves will be actively updated and we will have a
condensed version available on the NR website.

> There must be some degree of nervousness about where Nova is going and
that
> you may be loosing control of some of it, mixed with absolute and extreme
> excitement to see it take on an international flare and growing into
> something bigger. I do hope we have our own Senator one day in OZ
...>>>>

Nope, once again, one of the factors I really like about patron client is
that the newer generations of Nova Romans will be able to take off and
continue Nova Roma's evolution once the Founders are no longer magistrates.
Remember, Nova Roma will continue even if we old timers pass away, the thing
is continuity. No citizens is NO more important than any other citizen. I
do not consider myself any more important than any of our citizens. That is
one of the true benefits of a Republican Government, IMHO.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

> Marcus Sentius Claudius
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix [mailto:alexious@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, 11 April 2001 1:59 Pm
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
>
>
> Oh, Nova Britannia...thats different...the reason why there are so many
> senators in Nova Britannia, Mediatlantica and for that matter California,
is
> that is where Nova Roma really developed from.
>
> Our founders are both in Nova Britannia and Mediatlantica....and Senator
Q.
> Fabius and I are from California. See, when Nova Roma was first founded,
> it was based back East (in the United States). Since then Nova Roma has
> grown dramatically. But, the political officers, for the most part, have
> been in Nova Roma for a very long time. It wasnt til last year, during
the
> Consulship of Q.Fabius and M. Municius that the Consulship were held by
> citizens who were not apart of Nova Roma since Nova Roma began. Also,
> another interesting fact is that both Senator Fabius and Senator Municius
> were originally Plebians who were co-opted into the Patrician Class.
>
> I hope that answers your questions, if you have any other, please feel
free
> to ask.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Censor
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 8:53 PM
> Subject: RE: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
>
>
> > I am sorry - I feel so stupid - heavens - why would I have thought Nova
> > Britannia to be Britannia
> >
> > As they say in Oz, only in America....(only joking)...
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix [mailto:alexious@--------]
> > Sent: Wednesday, 11 April 2001 1:48 Pm
> > To: novaroma@--------
> > Subject: Re: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
> >
> >
> > Ave,
> >
> > Just a minor correction, Britannia has no Senators in Nova Roma. You
can
> > check this information by clicking on the following link:
> > http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/provinciae
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > Censor
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@-------->
> > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 8:45 PM
> > Subject: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
> >
> >
> > > Salvete
> > >
> > > I cannot understand how a little country of Australia has 29 Citizens
> and
> > no
> > > Senators, whilst Britania has 36 Citizens - yet has a lot of Senators.
> I
> > am
> > > new to this (obviously) and I am going to work this voting thing out
> > > (eventually) - I am sure it will be a good and exciting lesson in
> History
> > > for me...
> > >
> > > I am also planning a get together of fellow Citizens in Victoria
> > Australia,
> > > so if anyone if out there who is interested they can email me at
> > > mark_a_bird@-------- or at home on
> markbird@--------
> > >
> > > If anyone has any ideas on what people usually do at these gatherings,
> let
> > > me also know as any help would be appreciated.
> > >
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > >
> > > Marcus Sentius Claudius
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > **********************************************************************
> > > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> > > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> > > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> > > the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.
> > >
> > > This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
> > > for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
> > > **********************************************************************
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:39:42 +1000

Ave Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix,

Don't you sleep - what time is it over there ?????

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix [mailto:alexious@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, 11 April 2001 2:33 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ

Ave,

My comments below:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 9:19 PM
Subject: RE: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ

> Ave Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix,
>
> Thanks for the background. What can one say to Citizens who have created
> this - THANK YOU !!!

Sure no problem, I highly recommend you examining the archieves..you will
get a Plethora of information there. Granted there is probably 15000
messages..but, really you will learn alot about the history of Nova Roma.
Hopefully one day the archieves will be actively updated and we will have a
condensed version available on the NR website.

> There must be some degree of nervousness about where Nova is going and
that
> you may be loosing control of some of it, mixed with absolute and extreme
> excitement to see it take on an international flare and growing into
> something bigger. I do hope we have our own Senator one day in OZ
...>>>>

Nope, once again, one of the factors I really like about patron client is
that the newer generations of Nova Romans will be able to take off and
continue Nova Roma's evolution once the Founders are no longer magistrates.
Remember, Nova Roma will continue even if we old timers pass away, the thing
is continuity. No citizens is NO more important than any other citizen. I
do not consider myself any more important than any of our citizens. That is
one of the true benefits of a Republican Government, IMHO.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

> Marcus Sentius Claudius
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix [mailto:alexious@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, 11 April 2001 1:59 Pm
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
>
>
> Oh, Nova Britannia...thats different...the reason why there are so many
> senators in Nova Britannia, Mediatlantica and for that matter California,
is
> that is where Nova Roma really developed from.
>
> Our founders are both in Nova Britannia and Mediatlantica....and Senator
Q.
> Fabius and I are from California. See, when Nova Roma was first founded,
> it was based back East (in the United States). Since then Nova Roma has
> grown dramatically. But, the political officers, for the most part, have
> been in Nova Roma for a very long time. It wasnt til last year, during
the
> Consulship of Q.Fabius and M. Municius that the Consulship were held by
> citizens who were not apart of Nova Roma since Nova Roma began. Also,
> another interesting fact is that both Senator Fabius and Senator Municius
> were originally Plebians who were co-opted into the Patrician Class.
>
> I hope that answers your questions, if you have any other, please feel
free
> to ask.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Censor
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 8:53 PM
> Subject: RE: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
>
>
> > I am sorry - I feel so stupid - heavens - why would I have thought Nova
> > Britannia to be Britannia
> >
> > As they say in Oz, only in America....(only joking)...
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix [mailto:alexious@--------]
> > Sent: Wednesday, 11 April 2001 1:48 Pm
> > To: novaroma@--------
> > Subject: Re: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
> >
> >
> > Ave,
> >
> > Just a minor correction, Britannia has no Senators in Nova Roma. You
can
> > check this information by clicking on the following link:
> > http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/provinciae
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > Censor
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@-------->
> > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 8:45 PM
> > Subject: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
> >
> >
> > > Salvete
> > >
> > > I cannot understand how a little country of Australia has 29 Citizens
> and
> > no
> > > Senators, whilst Britania has 36 Citizens - yet has a lot of Senators.
> I
> > am
> > > new to this (obviously) and I am going to work this voting thing out
> > > (eventually) - I am sure it will be a good and exciting lesson in
> History
> > > for me...
> > >
> > > I am also planning a get together of fellow Citizens in Victoria
> > Australia,
> > > so if anyone if out there who is interested they can email me at
> > > mark_a_bird@-------- or at home on
> markbird@--------
> > >
> > > If anyone has any ideas on what people usually do at these gatherings,
> let
> > > me also know as any help would be appreciated.
> > >
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > >
> > > Marcus Sentius Claudius
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > **********************************************************************
> > > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> > > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> > > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> > > the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.
> > >
> > > This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
> > > for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
> > > **********************************************************************
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
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>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:41:35 -0700

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 9:39 PM
Subject: RE: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ

> Ave Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix,
>
> Don't you sleep - what time is it over there ?????

Its only 9:40 pm...and currently I am at work at Earthlink. I dont get off
til 11:30 pm. LOL I am usually awake til around 3 am....Usually available
on AIM, email and ICQ. :)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

> Marcus Sentius Claudius
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix [mailto:alexious@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, 11 April 2001 2:33 Pm
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
>
>
> Ave,
>
> My comments below:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 9:19 PM
> Subject: RE: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
>
>
> > Ave Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix,
> >
> > Thanks for the background. What can one say to Citizens who have
created
> > this - THANK YOU !!!
>
> Sure no problem, I highly recommend you examining the archieves..you will
> get a Plethora of information there. Granted there is probably 15000
> messages..but, really you will learn alot about the history of Nova Roma.
> Hopefully one day the archieves will be actively updated and we will have
a
> condensed version available on the NR website.
>
> > There must be some degree of nervousness about where Nova is going and
> that
> > you may be loosing control of some of it, mixed with absolute and
extreme
> > excitement to see it take on an international flare and growing into
> > something bigger. I do hope we have our own Senator one day in OZ
> ...>>>>
>
> Nope, once again, one of the factors I really like about patron client is
> that the newer generations of Nova Romans will be able to take off and
> continue Nova Roma's evolution once the Founders are no longer
magistrates.
> Remember, Nova Roma will continue even if we old timers pass away, the
thing
> is continuity. No citizens is NO more important than any other citizen.
I
> do not consider myself any more important than any of our citizens. That
is
> one of the true benefits of a Republican Government, IMHO.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
> > Marcus Sentius Claudius
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix [mailto:alexious@--------]
> > Sent: Wednesday, 11 April 2001 1:59 Pm
> > To: novaroma@--------
> > Subject: Re: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
> >
> >
> > Oh, Nova Britannia...thats different...the reason why there are so many
> > senators in Nova Britannia, Mediatlantica and for that matter
California,
> is
> > that is where Nova Roma really developed from.
> >
> > Our founders are both in Nova Britannia and Mediatlantica....and Senator
> Q.
> > Fabius and I are from California. See, when Nova Roma was first
founded,
> > it was based back East (in the United States). Since then Nova Roma has
> > grown dramatically. But, the political officers, for the most part,
have
> > been in Nova Roma for a very long time. It wasnt til last year, during
> the
> > Consulship of Q.Fabius and M. Municius that the Consulship were held by
> > citizens who were not apart of Nova Roma since Nova Roma began. Also,
> > another interesting fact is that both Senator Fabius and Senator
Municius
> > were originally Plebians who were co-opted into the Patrician Class.
> >
> > I hope that answers your questions, if you have any other, please feel
> free
> > to ask.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > Censor
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@-------->
> > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 8:53 PM
> > Subject: RE: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
> >
> >
> > > I am sorry - I feel so stupid - heavens - why would I have thought
Nova
> > > Britannia to be Britannia
> > >
> > > As they say in Oz, only in America....(only joking)...
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix [mailto:alexious@--------]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 April 2001 1:48 Pm
> > > To: novaroma@--------
> > > Subject: Re: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
> > >
> > >
> > > Ave,
> > >
> > > Just a minor correction, Britannia has no Senators in Nova Roma. You
> can
> > > check this information by clicking on the following link:
> > > http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/provinciae
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > >
> > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > Censor
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@-------->
> > > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 8:45 PM
> > > Subject: [novaroma] STATS and the Province of OZ
> > >
> > >
> > > > Salvete
> > > >
> > > > I cannot understand how a little country of Australia has 29
Citizens
> > and
> > > no
> > > > Senators, whilst Britania has 36 Citizens - yet has a lot of
Senators.
> > I
> > > am
> > > > new to this (obviously) and I am going to work this voting thing out
> > > > (eventually) - I am sure it will be a good and exciting lesson in
> > History
> > > > for me...
> > > >
> > > > I am also planning a get together of fellow Citizens in Victoria
> > > Australia,
> > > > so if anyone if out there who is interested they can email me at
> > > > mark_a_bird@-------- or at home on
> > markbird@--------
> > > >
> > > > If anyone has any ideas on what people usually do at these
gatherings,
> > let
> > > > me also know as any help would be appreciated.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Valete,
> > > >
> > > > Marcus Sentius Claudius
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
**********************************************************************
> > > > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> > > > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> > > > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please
notify
> > > > the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.
> > > >
> > > > This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
> > > > for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
> > > >
**********************************************************************
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
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>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Patron/Client -One client's real view...
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:51:04 -0700

Salvete Omnes,
In relation to the comments Oppius made about the telephone I agree
wholeheartedly. Voice communication is an invaluable tool. Is there any way
we could add a voice chat room to the web site, or offer a download or link
to a download of a free internet phone program? For instance, I use
Net2phone to talk to relatives in another state.

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason
for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 1:17 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Patron/Client -One client's real view...

> Salvete Quiritibus;
>
> After reasoned requests by Consul Germanice et
> Pompeia Cornelia -and after much consideration;
> it seemed that it might be beneficial to actually
> share the experiences of real-life client -me.
> Consul Germanice was quite right in stating that
> client/patron relationships should be out in
> the open and looked on proudly by those involved
> in same.
>
> So Quirites, I stand before you and declare that
> I am in fact a client of Censor Lucius Cornelius
> Sulla Felix. So, before the attacks fly, I only
> ask that you read what is said here, judge for
> yourself and then do as you will. Since we all
> more or less know each other's general feelings
> on clientage in general -both pro and con, I can
> only offer a description of my own such relationship.
>
> Like many newbies, I came to Nova Roma full of
> grandiose ideas, notions of what to see and do,
> how to participate and so forth. As I started to
> learn more about Nova Roma, many questions arose.
> (And I mean -MANY -in my case, at the time
> I was seemingly having more questions than
> answers.)
>
> One of the things I did early on, was download
> the AIM client and try chatting with various
> citizens to get a better feel for daily life here.
> Knowing that deep down somewhere -there had to
> be much more to Nova Roman life than what the
> main list was offering.
>
> One of the citizens with whom I started talking
> most frequently was Sulla. This was largely
> due to my travel schedule, the weird hours that
> we both seemed to keep (and consequently both
> be on chat at the same time) and some common
> interests in Roman law and various other topics.
> We found a natural rapport which extended naturally
> into macronational issues and other topics.
>
> Well, after my continual grilling of Sulla over
> a period of many weeks on all manner of legal
> and Censorial topics, we decided that it might
> in fact be beneficial to try a semi-traditional
> patron/client relationship. We began discussing
> the idea. It was not something pushed or forced
> on either side. VERY long and detailed discussions
> ensued, via e-mail, AIM and on good old telephone
> (a marvelous tool Quirites and one that has resolved
> more than one misunderstanding between myself and
> my fellow citizens. I highly recommend it.)
>
> The result of these discussions was the formation
> of a general patron/client agreement.
>
> The physical terms of our agreement were actually
> quite simple in the end. Sulla would provide
> guidance and suggestions on the legal side and help
> provide some of the tools necessary for me to
> climb the Cursus should I choose to do so. Additionally
> we would act as mutual sounding boards for all
> manner of ideas regarding Nova Roman law, daily
> life and activities.
>
> In return, I would assist him with projects such
> as the Censor handbook and provide input and support
> on those issues on which we mutually agreed. In
> essence, our agreement ended up being sort of a
> 'scriba +' position. By the time we had actually
> gotten to this point though, a friendship had ensued
> and this became a component of the relationship
> as well.
>
> For myself, I can only say that the experience
> gained and the satisfaction in the reciprocation
> of a patron/client relationship has been rewarding
> in my case. I've been able to learn from one of
> Nova Roma's longest-standing citizens and someone
> who has always been accessible to the cives and has
> worked tirelessly on our behalf. -No, I'm not
> going to eulogize; but keep in mind fellow cives
> that Sulla is someone who works *many* hours
> each and every day on behalf of the Respublica.
> He is not just someone who pops his head out
> of a proverbial gopher hole every few weeks to
> fire a few barbs on the main list, nor is he
> someone who just sits around complaining about
> things and doing no real work. We could
> all learn a thing or two from his tireless
> work ethic.
>
> To summarize: yes, I absolutely support the
> tradition of patron/client relationships. In my
> particular case, it has been very beneficial.
> No -such relationships should not be legislated
> or forced on anyone -and such relationships of
> course are not for everyone. It is very much
> a mutual choice for all parties involved.
>
> My hope is that this post has perhaps clarified
> things somewhat. Please feel free to ask questions!
>
> Bene valete,
> Oppius Flaccus Severus, Legatus America Boreoccidentalis
> Sacerdos Neptunus, Retarius et Scriba
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Missed Opportunity
From:	Marius the Wanderer <peregrinus@-------->
Date:	Date header was inserted by mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net

Ex papilio Luci Mari Peregrini omnes Quiritibus s.p.d.

Salvete omnes...

You people really disappoint me.

The senior Consul presented the topic and text of the Name-change
Edict. At his request I presented an alternative wording for the most
controversial section, something he had already looked over in private.
So there it was...a choice between alternate versions of the same
proposed law. And me, hopeless optimist, thinking that the discussion
would be confined to the merits and demerits of the respective
versions. That we had learned something in the last nine months; that
we knew by now what we liked and disliked in our public discourse; that
we would be talking about proposals and not personalities; that we
would not rehash last year's 'Fimbria [now Peregrinus] Controversy'.

Instead we got Censor Sulla dragging up my personal history with this
issue; Censor Equitius casting aspersions on my character on the basis
of my .sig block; Praetor Quintus Fabius all but calling me a liar;
insults being flung at me from complete strangers like Cassius Nerva
(who shames his gens; his Paterfamilias is my patron, though I suspect
Cassius Iulianus' Consular duties are keeping him from doing very much
in that role); and Pontiff Graecus, among others, saying horrendous
things about the person or persons responsible for introducing the
subject.

Pontiff Graecus, the topic was introduced by Consul Germanicus.
Remember?

And others (with whom I agree, btw) decrying the re-emergence and
rehashing of the Same Old Arguments. Of course we're hearing the Same
Old Arguments. We still have all the Same Old People yielding the Same
Old Responses, and they haven't thought a new thought on the matter
since last summer when we went 'round this particular circle the first
time. It has not dawned on any of those gentlemen that, this time
around, we are not talking about Marius Peregrinus. We are (or were
supposed to be) comparing and contrasting Sulla's original Edict with
Peregrinus' alternative proposal and getting a sense of which version
we would prefer to set as long-term policy in Nova Roma.

*One Citizen*, Oppius Flaccus, actually responded to my post by
discussing the proposal contained therein. Though he does not agree
that my amendment is needed, he has honored it by giving it his
sustained and serious attention. Thank you, Oppius Flaccus. Would
that more NovaRomani had followed your example.

It seems we have grown since the last time I was a regular on this
List...but we have not grown up. There was no reason for this debate
to degenerate as quickly as it did. We could have been Romans about
it. It was entirely up to us what we made of it.

I didn't come here to talk about my personal gender issue. I didn't
come here to be insulted, to get called names, or to have my nose
rubbed in things. We already did all that last year, gentlemen and
ladies. Can we discuss this thing neutrally now, as an issue of which
Section XX we would like to be the norm for persons changing the
grammatical gender of their Roman names? Does it really matter, for
purposes of a Comitia vote, whether or why anyone would want to do so?

In fides,
***********************************************************
Lucius Marius Peregrinus <peregrinus@-------->
Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, |>[SPQR]<|
Historical Re-Creationist |\=/|
and Citizen of Rome ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
"Is Rome worth one good man's life? ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
We believed it once. | | / )\ \| /
Make us believe it again." _|_| / _/_| /`(
-- Lucilla, _Gladiator_ /./..=' /./..'

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Missed Opportunity - correction
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:53:47 -0700

Ave,

Actually, the Edict that was published was written by my colleague, C.
Marius Merullus and myself. Here is it as it is listed in the Tabularium,
"Censorial Edict on Changes to Roman Names (Censores Lucius Cornelius Sulla
et Caius Marius Merullus, 06/29/00)." It is not just a "Sulla Edict."

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marius the Wanderer" <peregrinus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Cc: <Cassius622@-------->; <germanicus@novaroma.org>;
<c_marius_m@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 10:39 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Missed Opportunity

> Ex papilio Luci Mari Peregrini omnes Quiritibus s.p.d.
>
> Salvete omnes...
>
> You people really disappoint me.
>
> The senior Consul presented the topic and text of the Name-change
> Edict. At his request I presented an alternative wording for the most
> controversial section, something he had already looked over in private.
> So there it was...a choice between alternate versions of the same
> proposed law. And me, hopeless optimist, thinking that the discussion
> would be confined to the merits and demerits of the respective
> versions. That we had learned something in the last nine months; that
> we knew by now what we liked and disliked in our public discourse; that
> we would be talking about proposals and not personalities; that we
> would not rehash last year's 'Fimbria [now Peregrinus] Controversy'.
>
> Instead we got Censor Sulla dragging up my personal history with this
> issue; Censor Equitius casting aspersions on my character on the basis
> of my .sig block; Praetor Quintus Fabius all but calling me a liar;
> insults being flung at me from complete strangers like Cassius Nerva
> (who shames his gens; his Paterfamilias is my patron, though I suspect
> Cassius Iulianus' Consular duties are keeping him from doing very much
> in that role); and Pontiff Graecus, among others, saying horrendous
> things about the person or persons responsible for introducing the
> subject.
>
> Pontiff Graecus, the topic was introduced by Consul Germanicus.
> Remember?
>
> And others (with whom I agree, btw) decrying the re-emergence and
> rehashing of the Same Old Arguments. Of course we're hearing the Same
> Old Arguments. We still have all the Same Old People yielding the Same
> Old Responses, and they haven't thought a new thought on the matter
> since last summer when we went 'round this particular circle the first
> time. It has not dawned on any of those gentlemen that, this time
> around, we are not talking about Marius Peregrinus. We are (or were
> supposed to be) comparing and contrasting Sulla's original Edict with
> Peregrinus' alternative proposal and getting a sense of which version
> we would prefer to set as long-term policy in Nova Roma.
>
> *One Citizen*, Oppius Flaccus, actually responded to my post by
> discussing the proposal contained therein. Though he does not agree
> that my amendment is needed, he has honored it by giving it his
> sustained and serious attention. Thank you, Oppius Flaccus. Would
> that more NovaRomani had followed your example.
>
> It seems we have grown since the last time I was a regular on this
> List...but we have not grown up. There was no reason for this debate
> to degenerate as quickly as it did. We could have been Romans about
> it. It was entirely up to us what we made of it.
>
> I didn't come here to talk about my personal gender issue. I didn't
> come here to be insulted, to get called names, or to have my nose
> rubbed in things. We already did all that last year, gentlemen and
> ladies. Can we discuss this thing neutrally now, as an issue of which
> Section XX we would like to be the norm for persons changing the
> grammatical gender of their Roman names? Does it really matter, for
> purposes of a Comitia vote, whether or why anyone would want to do so?
>
> In fides,
> ***********************************************************
> Lucius Marius Peregrinus <peregrinus@-------->
> Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, |>[SPQR]<|
> Historical Re-Creationist |\=/|
> and Citizen of Rome ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
> "Is Rome worth one good man's life? ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
> We believed it once. | | / )\ \| /
> Make us believe it again." _|_| / _/_| /`(
> -- Lucilla, _Gladiator_ /./..=' /./..'
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Sicinius' contribution.
From:	QFabiusMax@--------
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 04:36:15 EDT

In a message dated 4/10/2001 4:54:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
lsicinius@-------- writes:

<< As for myself I have allready stated my support. On Sunday Morning I
made a $US 25.00 donation to Nova Roma to show my willingness to pay
my taxes. I issused a challenge at that time asking that others show
thier support in a similar matter sugesting a $US 12.00 donation. That
Post only recived TWO replies, and that leaves me wondering just how
much support for taxes there really is.

But this is excellent, Lucius Sicinius Drusus. I do hope more citizens will
emulate
your example.

Q Fabius Maximus.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Missed Opportunity
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:04:30 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Marius the Wanderer <peregrinus@s...> wrote:
> Ex papilio Luci Mari Peregrini omnes Quiritibus s.p.d.
>
> Salvete omnes...
>
> You people really disappoint me.
>
> The senior Consul presented the topic and text of the Name-change
> Edict. At his request I presented an alternative wording for the most
> controversial section, something he had already looked over in private.
> So there it was...a choice between alternate versions of the same
> proposed law. And me, hopeless optimist, thinking that the discussion
> would be confined to the merits and demerits of the respective
> versions.

Salve Lucius Marius,

My post yesterday addressed ALL proposals regarding a name lex. I,m a
libertarian, and I don't consider personal matters like gender or a
name to be a matter that ANY government, be it Micro or Macro
National, should interfere in. If a name change results in government
officals having to spend time and effort updating records, then the
person who wants the name change should be required to pay a
reasonable fee to offset these costs so they aren't borne by other
citizens.

Unless someone wishes to use the Name of the Gens that I am
Paterfamilis of what they chose to call themselves is none of my
buissness. If a Citizen strongly feels that they belong to a gender
that is other than thier "Biologicaly Correct" gender I have no
problem in respecting thier feelings and support thier right to select
a name that makes them comfortable.

I Will vote against ANY lex that I consider an intrusion into the
private lives of Nova Roma's citizens, and I consider any name lex
that goes beyond collecting a fee, preventing fraud, protecting the
rights of Gens to thier names, or regarding names of distinction to be
interfering in the personal lives of citizens.

One more thing Lucius Marius, one of the Roman virtues is Virtus or
Courage, and after what you have been through, the fact that you are
willing to address this lex shows that you pocess this virtue in
abundance. You have my well earned admiration.

Vale,
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Sicinius' contribution.
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:18:24 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, QFabiusMax@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 4/10/2001 4:54:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> lsicinius@-------- writes:
>
> << As for myself I have allready stated my support. On Sunday Morning I
> made a $US 25.00 donation to Nova Roma to show my willingness to pay
> my taxes. I issused a challenge at that time asking that others show
> thier support in a similar matter sugesting a $US 12.00 donation. That
> Post only recived TWO replies, and that leaves me wondering just how
> much support for taxes there really is.
>
> But this is excellent, Lucius Sicinius Drusus. I do hope more
citizens will
> emulate
> your example.
>
> Q Fabius Maximus.

Thank you Quintus Fabius!

I really was hoping that others who have spoken out in favor of taxes
would accept my challenge and that Nova Roma would benifit from my
little "poll" regarding taxation, but I fear the Name edict has
captured the public for now.

How soon can we put this to a vote and get past it? I don't like the
devisive nature of the debate and fear a prolonged debate will only
reopen old wounds and create new ones. Most Citizens have allready
made up thier minds on this matter and aren't willing to change them,
so the debate is only causing anger.

Can we please have a vote and get this over with so we can move on to
other matters like taxes?

Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Gender/Name-change Edictum
From:	bvm3@--------
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 11:34:26 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

I just have a few brief replies to things from Digest 1323 relating
to the Gender/REnaming issue:

____________________________
Octavius to Lucius Sergius:

> Citizens should ask themselves why certain people in power
have put the
> Republic through so much turmoil and distortion simply to
prevent one
> single citizen from referring to himself by the Roman name he
feels best
> suits who he is.

Let us also ask ourselves why certain people who wish they were
in power have put the Republic through so much turmoil,
endlessly bringing back the same tired old arguments and
demands, making a major issue out of something that most of us
simply don't care about.

There are *two* groups who can be blamed for the "turmoil".

RESPONDEO: There is, more precisely, one group which
wishes to use the State power to force their sexual identifications
on others against their will - and another group that seeing
people treated that way wish to correct the situation. If it were
not for the first group, the second group would have seen no
necessity of acting. Limiting freedom with power is always
provocative when a consensus on such use of power does not
exist in the community. Authorities using *our* collective power
should not provoke the citizens in this way - and if they insist on
so doing, the reaction is also something that they are responsible
for.

> Governmental corruption and misconduct is like a fungal
disease:

Where is the corruption and misconduct here? Looks more like
a legitimate difference of opinion.

RESPONDEO: There is such a thing as a legitimate difference
of opinion - but I am always suspicious when the conclusion
drawn from that is "*Therefore* the magistrate can do whatever
he wants to the citizen..." It seems to me that in such a situation
the legitimate difference of opinion of the citizen is simply
rendered powerless and the magistrate is permitted to use his
power without check. What about the equally *legitimate"
opinion of the citizen?

__________________________________
Pontifex Antonius Gryllus Graecus:

While I consider all kind of people as my equals irrespective of
sexual orientation, race, religion, etc, I'm really tired of these
arguments about sex change within Nova Roma. Please all of
you interested on the discussion of sexual orientation, etc.
choose another site from among the available on the Web. A
good one is http://www.shemale.com/

All of you who want to get sexual partners or simply talk about
your frustrations, there are a lot of dedicated IRC channels,
mailing lists, Message Boards, etc. Violations of human rights,
intolerance, etc. are also dealt with by macronational
organisations and authorities.

But please take this subject out from Nova Roma once and for
all! We are here for Romanitas, not for Sexualitas.

RESPONDEO: I would like to thank Graecus for his reference
to the site, and say that I heartily approve of his tolerant and
egalitarian attitude of respect for all.

He does, however, seem to misunderstand why this
discussion is taking place and taking place here in Nova Roma:
namely, that as a 21st century micronation we have
contemporary problems that have to be resolved publicly and
through discussion. I have detained myself for discussing it to
any significant degree for months, but now Consul Vedius has
officially brought up the original - and highly controversial and
problematic - edictum to be made into law by the People, and
that surely makes this the most appropriate time imaginable for a
thorough and searching discussion of the problems so that a bad
law will be avoided and perhaps a decent and fair law enacted.

________________________

Quintus Sertorius writes:

But, back to gender identification, it is that part of the
macronational recognition that we are speaking about. If your
macronational country recognizes you as a male then in Nova
Roma you too will be recognized as a male. If your
macronational country recognizes you as a female then
in Nova Roma you will be listed as female. I do not see a
reason why Nova Roma should deviate from that status. If one
is that determined to be recognized in Nova Roma as being
another gender, but NOT willing to take the same steps in their
macronational country, again I must ask why? Since again, I
view Nova Roma exactly the same as any other
macronational country.

I have heard it stated on this list before how easy it is for one to
copy their drivers license, and mail that photo copy in. We are
talking less than 60 cents US, a buck in Canada. If one did that,
I am sure the Censors would be HAPPY to change any status
with those documents. If someone under 18 wants to be a
citizen of Nova Roma, the parents of that applicant must
snail mail a statement allowing the under aged applicant to
participate. Therefore the precedent of mailing in paperwork to
magistrates of Nova Roma is firmly established.

RESPONDEO: The problem is not that simple. First of all, not
every macronational jurisdiction makes it easy to get a correct
sexual identity if one is in the wrong sexual minority group, i.e. a
transsexual. And this is variable from jurisdiction to jurisdiction,
which is unfair to *our* citizens living in backward areas
macronationally..

Or, it may be that one has established in an unofficial but
*real* way a sexual identity and name, but has seen no necessity
for officialising it in the macronation, which might be troublesome
and would not add anything important to the real sex one has in
the world. In Nova Roma the gender of one's name is especially
important in projecting one's correct personal gender, and if
artificial obstacles are placed in the way of using the one of one's
choice, that is a problem.

Then, too, I at least am talking about name gender, not the
issue of whether Nova Roma should keep a list of citizens'
sexes. The true counterpart in macronations is thus name
change, not sex change. And that is, as someone else pointed
out, quite easy in the U.S. and can be to a name normally used
for the opposite sex. If a macronational citizen can change name
from "John" to "Sue" when it still says "M" on his driver's licence,
that might solve his macronational problem satisfactorily, but if
the person is then forced to have a masculine name in Nova
Roma based on the "M" on the license and not his feminine
macronational name, he might be forced to go to a lot of trouble
in his macronation.

Making regulations and limitations can thus be seen to cause
endless problems for the Censors or for the citizens, and the
straightforward asking of cives and prospective cives which
gendered name they prefer to use is the simplest approach for
everyone involved, and the one least likely to result in conflicts,
complication or political squabbles.

Valete!

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Subject:	[novaroma] I'm sorry to disappoint you (was: A boy named Sue)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 11:57:20 +0100

Salvete Quirites

Some of you have classified my postings on the transgender issue as
histerical. I must disagree. The histerical people are in my opinion those
who are constantly introducing these universal out-of-scope debates, and I
shall explain the reasons for this opinion:

1) Several people become excited when they read that Nova Roma is a
"micronation". Maybe they should hold their horses and pay as much attention
to the "micro-" as they pay to the "-nation".

2) No, micronations will not be able to put an end to the world's biggest
problems: famine, war, environmental destruction, intolerance, tyranny, etc.
If you really want to solve these problems you should pay attention to the
life of your macronation, join macronational social and political
organisations, go to the streets to manifest your opinion to your or any
other macronational government. Micronations are not to be used as
Narcotics.

3) If you are frustrated for having a corrupt macronational government,
please do not bring your rage to the micronation, insulting the
micronational government as you would like (but cannot) to insult your
macronational government. In fact, Micronational governments rarely (or
never) receive any salaries - think about that. A micronational government
should be considered more as a working team than as a government.

4) If you want that little fraction of Nova Roma to keep doing all the work,
please respect the time those people loose every day to bring you little
things such as face-to-face mettings, religious information, website
management, etc.. Otherwise have the courage to become a target like them
and candidate yourself in order to work more and perform better.

Valete bene in pace deorum
Antonius Gryllus Graecus

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Subject:	[novaroma] GAIUS SENTIUS: ADDRESS CHANGE
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:30:00 +1000 (EST)

Ave all,

Due to technical difficulties, I have had to change my
e-mail address. If anyone has contacted me in the past
24 hours, could you please re-send the message, as I
will not have received it.

Valete bene,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

_____________________________________________________________________________
http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies
- Now showing: Dude Where's My Car, The Wedding Planner, Traffic..

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Subject:	[novaroma] Changed Address
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:39:34 +1000 (EST)

Ave all,

This is just a quick e-mail to say that I have changed
my e-mail address for a while due to technical
difficulties for a while. If anyone tried to get into
contact with me in the last 24 hours, could you please
re-contact me at the following address:

gaiussentius@--------

Thankyou.

Valete bene all,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

_____________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Sicinius' contribution.
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 12:57:07 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, QFabiusMax@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 4/10/2001 4:54:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> lsicinius@-------- writes:
>
> << As for myself I have allready stated my support. On Sunday
Morning I
> made a $US 25.00 donation to Nova Roma to show my willingness to
pay
> my taxes. I issused a challenge at that time asking that others
show
> thier support in a similar matter sugesting a $US 12.00 donation.
That
> Post only recived TWO replies, and that leaves me wondering just
how
> much support for taxes there really is.
>
> But this is excellent, Lucius Sicinius Drusus. I do hope more
citizens will
> emulate
> your example.
>
> Q Fabius Maximus.

Salvete L. Sincinius Drusus et Omnes:

I too am in favour of a taxation system, the concept as initially
proposed by Q. Fabius Maximus, plus or minus some modifications. And
I happy others are too. And I shall "practise what I preach" as soon
as I get my confirmation number from PayPal.

But I will not openly disclose how much $$$ I donate to NR. That is
between me and the Divine Forces of the Universe :) And I don't expect
anybody else to make such disclosures.

My silence is not disinterest. I have already expressed my views on
taxation many times over, and alas, until such time as this is ready
to present as an immiment reality, I shall likely remain silent,
except to say that I am in favour of the idea.

Bene valete,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Sicinius' contribution.
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 07:13:57 -0700

Salvete L. Sicini et Quiritibus;

Let me just say L. Sicini that though the public
response to your challenge may not have been as
overwhelming as many of us would have liked, your
open challenge was a good idea and at the very least,
has generated some much needed funds for the
treasury.

Though personally, I do agree with others that
donations in and of themselves are typically best
handled on a private basis, having a good old
fashioned public 'pledge drive' once in a while
is not so bad either. So for making the effort
on that, I thank you and also look forward to
moving on to taxes and more practical matters.

Bene vale,
Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: lsicinius@-------- [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 2:18 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Sicinius' contribution.

--- In novaroma@--------, QFabiusMax@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 4/10/2001 4:54:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> lsicinius@-------- writes:
>
> << As for myself I have allready stated my support. On Sunday Morning I
> made a $US 25.00 donation to Nova Roma to show my willingness to pay
> my taxes. I issused a challenge at that time asking that others show
> thier support in a similar matter sugesting a $US 12.00 donation. That
> Post only recived TWO replies, and that leaves me wondering just how
> much support for taxes there really is.
>
> But this is excellent, Lucius Sicinius Drusus. I do hope more
citizens will
> emulate
> your example.
>
> Q Fabius Maximus.

Thank you Quintus Fabius!

I really was hoping that others who have spoken out in favor of taxes
would accept my challenge and that Nova Roma would benifit from my
little "poll" regarding taxation, but I fear the Name edict has
captured the public for now.

How soon can we put this to a vote and get past it? I don't like the
devisive nature of the debate and fear a prolonged debate will only
reopen old wounds and create new ones. Most Citizens have allready
made up thier minds on this matter and aren't willing to change them,
so the debate is only causing anger.

Can we please have a vote and get this over with so we can move on to
other matters like taxes?

Drusus


Subject:	[novaroma] President Bush on Virgil
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:29:47 -0500 (CDT)

Bush Regales Dinner Guests with Impromptu
Oratory on Virgil's Minor Works

...Bush confessed that he has "long held a fascination with the
classical world," noting that his love of Roman history influenced
his decision to enter politics.

"Virgil was born in the year 70 B.C.--let's see, that would be
during the consulship of Gnaeus Pompeius The Great and Marcus Licinius
Crassus, if I'm not mistaken," Bush said. "It is said that while Virgil's
mother was with child, she dreamt she gave birth to a laurel branch,
which, upon touching the ground, sprang up into a full-grown tree,
its branches laden with ripe fruits and flowers. The next morning,
she gave birth to Virgil. The legend goes that Virgil was born
without crying, so mild was his countenance."

The entire article can be found at:

http://www.theonion.com/onion3713/bush_regales_guests.html

Vale, Octavius.

---
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	[novaroma] Call for Legati II
From:	V_Praetoria@--------
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:33:57 -0000

Salvette,
This is to inform all cives in America Austroccidentalis that the
closing date for Legati will end at 1200 hrs (mountain time) Friday,
April 13th. The cives will then be notified of there position in a
formal announcement to the NR list as well as the provincial list. I
would like to thank all of the cives that have so far taken the time
to inform me of there willingness to serve the province.

Pontius Sejanus Marius
Propraetor, America Austroccidentalis

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Subject:	[novaroma] Life is full of disappointments - was Re: Missed Opportunity
From:	"Nick R. Ramos Jr." <nramos@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:35:55 -0000

Salve, Peregrinus!

Perhaps you will find that many people did not reply as you desired
because quite simply they do not agree with you on the degree of
importance of this issue. I personally see too much of "political
correctness" attached to this issue, especially when out of a list
that contains over a hundred subscribers less than 6 are posting in
favor of your point of view. That being said, I respect your point of
view although I may not agree with it; what I don't agree with are
the
following things:

1. You have taken this issue as an excuse to attack my Paterfamilias,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix, constantly. Never mind that you have
insulted him in other fora, and insulted our Gens as well; but I find
it patently hypocritical of you to complain about "Sulla dragging up
my personal history in this matter" when you blatantly attempt to
blame him singlehandedly for all the turmoil this issue has caused. I
am considerably older and longer in the tooth than Sulla, and I have
found him to be just another individual who's trying to make Nova
Roma
work. He has no aspirations to becoming "Divus Caesar" despite your
continuous accusations to that effect.

2. Your replies to any and all alternatives to your point of view
seem
to fall into a generalized pattern of "ad hominem" attacks. This is
not limited to you; I've seen others disparage the quality of the
Latin of some of our members, or even engaging in such puerile games
as calling members of a particular Gens "podex lickers", etc. If you
have valid points, you have no need of such attacks; if you do not
have valid points, such attacks belittle you before others.

3.This particular issue has become blown completely out of
proprotion,
even when the accomodations you and your supporters demanded were
integrated into the text of the new edict. If your objections were
answered, and your comments became an integral part of what was
finally published, why do you continue to scream that you are being
excluded? Do you hope to gain political power by being the most vocal
individual here? Is it your purpose to force us to accept your views
in order to make you happy? If it didn't work for my two year old
niece, what makes you think that it will work for you?

Omnes, this whole thread now has gone beyond ludicrous, into the
realm
of silliness. I for one will not respond to this further, and if
necessary, I will discharge my duties as Curule magistrate via
private
e-mail when needed. We have more important issues to attend to than
to
waste any more time on a subject on which there is no possible
agreement, for this has already become a religious crusade and it
seems I am one of the infidels to be burnt at the stake!

Peregrinus, I think your energies would be better spent in the
pursuit
of real goals in the service of Nova Roma. This quasi-pontification
on
the imagined threat from a government that has no real power over
your
person, and in fact has not even attempted to impede you in any way
is
a waste of what I perceive to be quite considerable talents. Let's
get
on with the real business of developing our Res Publica, and let
these
inanities pass.

Optime Vale, et Bellona nos protegas!
Marius Cornelius Scipio
Aedilis Curulis Nova Romani

--- In novaroma@--------, Marius the Wanderer <peregrinus@s...> wrote:
> Ex papilio Luci Mari Peregrini omnes Quiritibus s.p.d.
>
> Salvete omnes...
>
> You people really disappoint me.
>
> The senior Consul presented the topic and text of the Name-change
> Edict. At his request I presented an alternative wording for the
most
> controversial section, something he had already looked over in
private.
> So there it was...a choice between alternate versions of the same
> proposed law. And me, hopeless optimist, thinking that the
discussion
> would be confined to the merits and demerits of the respective
> versions. That we had learned something in the last nine months;
that
> we knew by now what we liked and disliked in our public discourse;
that
> we would be talking about proposals and not personalities; that we
> would not rehash last year's 'Fimbria [now Peregrinus] Controversy'.
>
> Instead we got Censor Sulla dragging up my personal history with
this
> issue; Censor Equitius casting aspersions on my character on the
basis
> of my .sig block; Praetor Quintus Fabius all but calling me a liar;
> insults being flung at me from complete strangers like Cassius
Nerva
> (who shames his gens; his Paterfamilias is my patron, though I
suspect
> Cassius Iulianus' Consular duties are keeping him from doing very
much
> in that role); and Pontiff Graecus, among others, saying horrendous
> things about the person or persons responsible for introducing the
> subject.
>
> Pontiff Graecus, the topic was introduced by Consul Germanicus.
> Remember?
>
> And others (with whom I agree, btw) decrying the re-emergence and
> rehashing of the Same Old Arguments. Of course we're hearing the
Same
> Old Arguments. We still have all the Same Old People yielding the
Same
> Old Responses, and they haven't thought a new thought on the matter
> since last summer when we went 'round this particular circle the
first
> time. It has not dawned on any of those gentlemen that, this time
> around, we are not talking about Marius Peregrinus. We are (or
were
> supposed to be) comparing and contrasting Sulla's original Edict
with
> Peregrinus' alternative proposal and getting a sense of which
version
> we would prefer to set as long-term policy in Nova Roma.
>
> *One Citizen*, Oppius Flaccus, actually responded to my post by
> discussing the proposal contained therein. Though he does not
agree
> that my amendment is needed, he has honored it by giving it his
> sustained and serious attention. Thank you, Oppius Flaccus. Would
> that more NovaRomani had followed your example.
>
> It seems we have grown since the last time I was a regular on this
> List...but we have not grown up. There was no reason for this
debate
> to degenerate as quickly as it did. We could have been Romans
about
> it. It was entirely up to us what we made of it.
>
> I didn't come here to talk about my personal gender issue. I
didn't
> come here to be insulted, to get called names, or to have my nose
> rubbed in things. We already did all that last year, gentlemen and
> ladies. Can we discuss this thing neutrally now, as an issue of
which
> Section XX we would like to be the norm for persons changing the
> grammatical gender of their Roman names? Does it really matter,
for
> purposes of a Comitia vote, whether or why anyone would want to do
so?
>
> In fides,
> ***********************************************************
> Luciu--------riu--------regrinu-------- <peregrinu--------..>
> Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, |>[SPQR]<|
> Historical Re-Creationist |\=/|
> and Citizen of Rome ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
> "Is Rome worth one good man's life? ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
> We believed it once. | | / )\ \| /
> Make us believe it again." _|_| / _/_| /`(
> -- Lucilla, _Gladiator_ /./..=' /./..'

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Subject:	[novaroma] To Sicinius Drusus
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:36:07 -0000

Salvete Drusus:

If my last discourse on taxation/donations came across as overly
business-like and not in the spirit of amicitia, I apologize. Upon
rereading my letter, I think I was a bit crusty.

I forgot in my letter to acknowledge that your intentions are very
noble indeed, and I appreciate your efforts, amicus, I truly do.

I guess I just don't want to talk about taxes anymore; I want to 'do'
it.

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia

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Subject:	[novaroma] Song From Gladiator
From:	"Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:39:24 -0000

Salvete!

Does anyone know what language(s) the lyrics of the song "Now we are
free" from the Gladiator soundtrack are being sung in?

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Legatus of Massachusetts

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Replies
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:06:09 +0200

Salve Tite Octavi,

> Sextus Apollonius Draco wrote:
> > So far for the cultural revival of NR, while all we seem to be
> > so concerned about is titlemongering and social reconstruction of
tightly
> > hierarchic structures. Many of those so-called powerful citizens, by the
> > way, don't even know decent Latin (and that after being a citizen for
more
> > than 2 years), which is a shame for our ancestors. Wake up and smell the
> > coffee, citizens!
>
> Salve, Sextus Apollonius Draco.
>
> I must admit to not knowing decent latin myself, nor will I likely find
> the time to learn in the next two years. Admittedly, I am interested in
> learning latin, and thus the odds of my doing so are slightly better
> than the average citizen, who might be interested in roman society,
> history, and the Nova Roman ideals, without wanting to learn a dead
> language to appease traditionalists.
>

I'm not saying you or anyone should appease traditionalists. But Roman
soceity is linked with Latin. Also, what I mean by "decent Latin" is at
least that people get their vocatives right, or know how to form plurals of
some words. I find that the SodLat should play a more important role in
this. For example, the vocative of my name is Sexte Apolloni Draco. For the
declensions of names in the proper cases, I advise you to check out the
archives for the courses of my paterfamilias, Formosanus; courses which most
people seem to have forgotten.

Note: I'm not correcting your Latin mistake from a feeling of pedanterie or
superiority, I just find that the Latin mistakes made here on the main list
are too many.

> After all, latin is dead, and even though we employ latin words and
> phrases for various Nova Roman concepts in honor of our predecessors, I
> fail to see in what manner a citizen is any less devoted to Nova Roma if
> he between his work hours, family life, and work on Nova Roma, fails to
> master the latin language within two years of joining.
>

That's the crux of the matter: it's not about being devoted to The State,
but being devoted to the Romanitas, the Romanhood, so to speak. NR is an
empty bubble with administration only.

> I mean, most romans didn't learn it that well in less than three...:)

Vale bene!
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Life is full of disappointments - was Re: Missed Opportunity
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:32:47 -0700

Salvete Omnes
Or should I just say "Howdy Y'all!" since I'm still learning Latin as well?

Marius Cornelius Scipio wrote:
it
> seems I am one of the infidels to be burnt at the stake

I think I may have been offered membership in that club as well, know any
songs we can sing as we burn?

if
> necessary, I will discharge my duties as Curule magistrate via
> private
> e-mail when needed.

I had that same emotional response! Glad to see you didn't succumb to it.

, I respect your point of
> view although I may not agree with it;

For me, there's the real irony. My personal views run far closer to those
who oppose the name change edict. I choose to let my desire for an "as close
to historically accurate" nation win over my desire to protect my *private*
life.
By attacking me they may have lost the opportunity to persuade me to align
my views with theirs.

For clarification, I realize the individual who I feel I would like an
apology from may not be the individual who started this thread. This is my
way of saying "You get more flies with honey than with vinegar"

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason
for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick R. Ramos Jr." <nramos@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 7:35 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Life is full of disappointments - was Re: Missed
Opportunity

> Salve, Peregrinus!
>
> Perhaps you will find that many people did not reply as you desired
> because quite simply they do not agree with you on the degree of
> importance of this issue. I personally see too much of "political
> correctness" attached to this issue, especially when out of a list
> that contains over a hundred subscribers less than 6 are posting in
> favor of your point of view. That being said, I respect your point of
> view although I may not agree with it; what I don't agree with are
> the
> following things:
>
> 1. You have taken this issue as an excuse to attack my Paterfamilias,
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix, constantly. Never mind that you have
> insulted him in other fora, and insulted our Gens as well; but I find
> it patently hypocritical of you to complain about "Sulla dragging up
> my personal history in this matter" when you blatantly attempt to
> blame him singlehandedly for all the turmoil this issue has caused. I
> am considerably older and longer in the tooth than Sulla, and I have
> found him to be just another individual who's trying to make Nova
> Roma
> work. He has no aspirations to becoming "Divus Caesar" despite your
> continuous accusations to that effect.
>
> 2. Your replies to any and all alternatives to your point of view
> seem
> to fall into a generalized pattern of "ad hominem" attacks. This is
> not limited to you; I've seen others disparage the quality of the
> Latin of some of our members, or even engaging in such puerile games
> as calling members of a particular Gens "podex lickers", etc. If you
> have valid points, you have no need of such attacks; if you do not
> have valid points, such attacks belittle you before others.
>
> 3.This particular issue has become blown completely out of
> proprotion,
> even when the accomodations you and your supporters demanded were
> integrated into the text of the new edict. If your objections were
> answered, and your comments became an integral part of what was
> finally published, why do you continue to scream that you are being
> excluded? Do you hope to gain political power by being the most vocal
> individual here? Is it your purpose to force us to accept your views
> in order to make you happy? If it didn't work for my two year old
> niece, what makes you think that it will work for you?
>
> Omnes, this whole thread now has gone beyond ludicrous, into the
> realm
> of silliness. I for one will not respond to this further, and if
> necessary, I will discharge my duties as Curule magistrate via
> private
> e-mail when needed. We have more important issues to attend to than
> to
> waste any more time on a subject on which there is no possible
> agreement, for this has already become a religious crusade and it
> seems I am one of the infidels to be burnt at the stake!
>
> Peregrinus, I think your energies would be better spent in the
> pursuit
> of real goals in the service of Nova Roma. This quasi-pontification
> on
> the imagined threat from a government that has no real power over
> your
> person, and in fact has not even attempted to impede you in any way
> is
> a waste of what I perceive to be quite considerable talents. Let's
> get
> on with the real business of developing our Res Publica, and let
> these
> inanities pass.
>
> Optime Vale, et Bellona nos protegas!
> Marius Cornelius Scipio
> Aedilis Curulis Nova Romani
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, Marius the Wanderer <peregrinus@s...> wrote:
> > Ex papilio Luci Mari Peregrini omnes Quiritibus s.p.d.
> >
> > Salvete omnes...
> >
> > You people really disappoint me.
> >
> > The senior Consul presented the topic and text of the Name-change
> > Edict. At his request I presented an alternative wording for the
> most
> > controversial section, something he had already looked over in
> private.
> > So there it was...a choice between alternate versions of the same
> > proposed law. And me, hopeless optimist, thinking that the
> discussion
> > would be confined to the merits and demerits of the respective
> > versions. That we had learned something in the last nine months;
> that
> > we knew by now what we liked and disliked in our public discourse;
> that
> > we would be talking about proposals and not personalities; that we
> > would not rehash last year's 'Fimbria [now Peregrinus] Controversy'.
> >
> > Instead we got Censor Sulla dragging up my personal history with
> this
> > issue; Censor Equitius casting aspersions on my character on the
> basis
> > of my .sig block; Praetor Quintus Fabius all but calling me a liar;
> > insults being flung at me from complete strangers like Cassius
> Nerva
> > (who shames his gens; his Paterfamilias is my patron, though I
> suspect
> > Cassius Iulianus' Consular duties are keeping him from doing very
> much
> > in that role); and Pontiff Graecus, among others, saying horrendous
> > things about the person or persons responsible for introducing the
> > subject.
> >
> > Pontiff Graecus, the topic was introduced by Consul Germanicus.
> > Remember?
> >
> > And others (with whom I agree, btw) decrying the re-emergence and
> > rehashing of the Same Old Arguments. Of course we're hearing the
> Same
> > Old Arguments. We still have all the Same Old People yielding the
> Same
> > Old Responses, and they haven't thought a new thought on the matter
> > since last summer when we went 'round this particular circle the
> first
> > time. It has not dawned on any of those gentlemen that, this time
> > around, we are not talking about Marius Peregrinus. We are (or
> were
> > supposed to be) comparing and contrasting Sulla's original Edict
> with
> > Peregrinus' alternative proposal and getting a sense of which
> version
> > we would prefer to set as long-term policy in Nova Roma.
> >
> > *One Citizen*, Oppius Flaccus, actually responded to my post by
> > discussing the proposal contained therein. Though he does not
> agree
> > that my amendment is needed, he has honored it by giving it his
> > sustained and serious attention. Thank you, Oppius Flaccus. Would
> > that more NovaRomani had followed your example.
> >
> > It seems we have grown since the last time I was a regular on this
> > List...but we have not grown up. There was no reason for this
> debate
> > to degenerate as quickly as it did. We could have been Romans
> about
> > it. It was entirely up to us what we made of it.
> >
> > I didn't come here to talk about my personal gender issue. I
> didn't
> > come here to be insulted, to get called names, or to have my nose
> > rubbed in things. We already did all that last year, gentlemen and
> > ladies. Can we discuss this thing neutrally now, as an issue of
> which
> > Section XX we would like to be the norm for persons changing the
> > grammatical gender of their Roman names? Does it really matter,
> for
> > purposes of a Comitia vote, whether or why anyone would want to do
> so?
> >
> > In fides,
> > ***********************************************************
> > Luciu--------riu--------regrinu-------- <peregrinu--------..>
> > Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, |>[SPQR]<|
> > Historical Re-Creationist |\=/|
> > and Citizen of Rome ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
> > "Is Rome worth one good man's life? ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
> > We believed it once. | | / )\ \| /
> > Make us believe it again." _|_| / _/_| /`(
> > -- Lucilla, _Gladiator_ /./..=' /./..'
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] (unknown)
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:37:24 -0000

Pompeia Cornelia:
>>I guess I just don't want to talk about taxes anymore; I want
to 'do' it.<<

Hear, hear...Bravo!

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Song From Gladiator
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:36:50 -0700

Salve,
I'm not sure but from watching an interview with Lisa Gerrard on a Dead Can
Dance (her band) video she basically said it's non-verbal vocalization.
However, DCD sometimes performs Welsh or Celtic tunes, in those languages,
so it could be a foreign tongue. My guess without dragging out my Gladiator
CD would be it's the non-verbal vocalization type.

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason
for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 7:39 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Song From Gladiator

> Salvete!
>
> Does anyone know what language(s) the lyrics of the song "Now we are
> free" from the Gladiator soundtrack are being sung in?
>
> Valete,
>
> C. Minucius Hadrianus
> Legatus of Massachusetts
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gender/Name-change Edictum
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:44:33 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Marce Apolloni,

> Let us also ask ourselves why certain people who wish they were
> in power have put the Republic through so much turmoil,
> endlessly bringing back the same tired old arguments and
> demands, making a major issue out of something that most of us
> simply don't care about.
>
> There are *two* groups who can be blamed for the "turmoil".
>
> RESPONDEO: There is, more precisely,

I love the way that you label your own unique perceptions and
strongly-held opinions as "more precise".

> one group which
> wishes to use the State power to force their sexual identifications
> on others against their will - and another group that seeing
> people treated that way wish to correct the situation.

Yes, please do "correct" us all to your way of thinking. We are
ever so lucky to have you here to "correct the situation".

> If it were not for the first group, the second group would have seen no
> necessity of acting.

If not for the second group, this issue, which only a tiny handful
of people on either side care about, would have died long ago.
Perhaps then the bulk of traffic on this list would actually be about
Roman civilization and politics, rather than a tedious continuation
of a year-long argument about transsexuals' names.

> Authorities using *our* collective power should not provoke the citizens
> in this way - and if they insist on so doing, the reaction is also
> something that they are responsible for.

This "reaction" comes from a handful of fanatics who insist on "correcting"
the magistrates elected by the people, in spite of having almost no
popular support.

No one has been "provoked". A citizen applied to three magistrates in
the office of censor for a name that each censor independently concluded
was inappropriate, one of them finally publishing an edict outlining
policies for names.

You are not being "provoked" every time you don't get your way.

Vale, Octavius.

---
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Replies
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:48:28 -0700

Salve Sexte Apolloni Draco S.P.D.
I made a comment in a recent post about your Latin comment. Please take it
with a grain of salt. I understand your intentions were good. As a matter of
fact, I will go back to properly addressing my posts if you will pledge to
Email me privately and tell me when I've made a mistake.
I'll take a step to conform to your view of Romanitas if you will help me.
In this way we can show both sides of this bickering that there are as many
ways to work together as there are to pull apart. I hope you will take me up
on this offer.

Next year in the Forum!

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason
for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
----- Original Message -----
From: "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 6:06 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Replies

> Salve Tite Octavi,
>
> > Sextus Apollonius Draco wrote:
> > > So far for the cultural revival of NR, while all we seem to be
> > > so concerned about is titlemongering and social reconstruction of
> tightly
> > > hierarchic structures. Many of those so-called powerful citizens, by
the
> > > way, don't even know decent Latin (and that after being a citizen for
> more
> > > than 2 years), which is a shame for our ancestors. Wake up and smell
the
> > > coffee, citizens!
> >
> > Salve, Sextus Apollonius Draco.
> >
> > I must admit to not knowing decent latin myself, nor will I likely find
> > the time to learn in the next two years. Admittedly, I am interested in
> > learning latin, and thus the odds of my doing so are slightly better
> > than the average citizen, who might be interested in roman society,
> > history, and the Nova Roman ideals, without wanting to learn a dead
> > language to appease traditionalists.
> >
>
> I'm not saying you or anyone should appease traditionalists. But Roman
> soceity is linked with Latin. Also, what I mean by "decent Latin" is at
> least that people get their vocatives right, or know how to form plurals
of
> some words. I find that the SodLat should play a more important role in
> this. For example, the vocative of my name is Sexte Apolloni Draco. For
the
> declensions of names in the proper cases, I advise you to check out the
> archives for the courses of my paterfamilias, Formosanus; courses which
most
> people seem to have forgotten.
>
> Note: I'm not correcting your Latin mistake from a feeling of pedanterie
or
> superiority, I just find that the Latin mistakes made here on the main
list
> are too many.
>
> > After all, latin is dead, and even though we employ latin words and
> > phrases for various Nova Roman concepts in honor of our predecessors, I
> > fail to see in what manner a citizen is any less devoted to Nova Roma if
> > he between his work hours, family life, and work on Nova Roma, fails to
> > master the latin language within two years of joining.
> >
>
> That's the crux of the matter: it's not about being devoted to The State,
> but being devoted to the Romanitas, the Romanhood, so to speak. NR is an
> empty bubble with administration only.
>
> > I mean, most romans didn't learn it that well in less than three...:)
>
>
> Vale bene!
> Draco
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Song From Gladiator
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:52:37 -0000

Salveye!!

Oh, Luci Mauri, I just love the music of Dead Can Dance, by the way. I've
admired them for a few years now, basically since I learned of them :) I
listen to a national public radio program on the weekend, called "Echoes",
which features their stuff periodically, along with other eclectic-type New
Age/Celtic Tunes.

I recommend this program to anyone. Check your listings of Public Radio in
the U.S.

Bene valete,
Pompeia

>From: "Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: <novaroma@-------->
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Song From Gladiator
>Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:36:50 -0700
>
>Salve,
>I'm not sure but from watching an interview with Lisa Gerrard on a Dead Can
>Dance (her band) video she basically said it's non-verbal vocalization.
>However, DCD sometimes performs Welsh or Celtic tunes, in those languages,
>so it could be a foreign tongue. My guess without dragging out my Gladiator
>CD would be it's the non-verbal vocalization type.
>
>Lucius Mauricius Procopious
>Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
>(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>procopious@--------
>ICQ# 83516618
>*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
>http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
>* The Gens Mauricia
>http://www.geocities.com/procopious
>
>"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
>affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason
>for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
>to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
>decide for himself according to his taste."
> -Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@-------->
>To: <novaroma@-------->
>Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 7:39 AM
>Subject: [novaroma] Song From Gladiator
>
>
> > Salvete!
> >
> > Does anyone know what language(s) the lyrics of the song "Now we are
> > free" from the Gladiator soundtrack are being sung in?
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > C. Minucius Hadrianus
> > Legatus of Massachusetts
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Subject:	[novaroma] do someone now his address?
From:	=?iso-8859-1?Q?Hampus_R=E5de?= <hampus.rade@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 17:34:39 +0200

Salve all
Do someone know this mans address "Artus Galicianus Jacobus", do someone
know his e-mail or snail mail.

With respect and friendship
Vibius Minucius Falco
Procurator ad Res Internas Thules
***************************

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Subject:	Another correction (Re: [novaroma] Replies)
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 17:52:26 +0200

Salvete Romani,

(snip)

> That's the crux of the matter: it's not about being devoted to The State,
> but being devoted to the Romanitas, the Romanhood, so to speak. NR is an
> empty bubble with administration only.

Sorry, I meant here: NR is an empty bubble if it only has administration.

Valete bene,
Draco

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Subject:	[novaroma] Controversy?
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:02:18 +0200

Greetings, citizens of New Rome,

Actually, all put together, it's quite simple: the Censores promulgate an
edict, for the largest part because of the problems of one citizen. And for
that very citizen, the edict proves to be unworkable. So what's the
solution? Change it. Give it a NO when it comes up for a vote.

Also, allow me to reply to two remarkable things I've read today.

Marcus Cornelius Scipio scripsit, inter alia:

((snipped))

> 2. Your replies to any and all alternatives to your point of view
> seem
> to fall into a generalized pattern of "ad hominem" attacks. This is
> not limited to you; I've seen others disparage the quality of the
> Latin of some of our members, or even engaging in such puerile games
> as calling members of a particular Gens "podex lickers", etc. If you
> have valid points, you have no need of such attacks; if you do not
> have valid points, such attacks belittle you before others.
>

Woho! I said that the quality of the basic Latin of °some magistrates° and
°some Senatores° should be °much° better. And while I don't think you're
addressing me in those other phrases, I want to make it clear I've never
said those things.

> 3.This particular issue has become blown completely out of
> proprotion,

Fully agreed.

> even when the accomodations you and your supporters demanded were
> integrated into the text of the new edict. If your objections were
> answered, and your comments became an integral part of what was
> finally published, why do you continue to scream that you are being
> excluded? Do you hope to gain political power by being the most vocal
> individual here? Is it your purpose to force us to accept your views
> in order to make you happy? If it didn't work for my two year old
> niece, what makes you think that it will work for you?
>

Problem is, they made this edict to help him. But it didn't. Isn't it
reasonable to feel excluded then?

((snipped))

Antonius Gryllus Graecus scripsit:

> Some of you have classified my postings on the transgender issue as
> histerical. I must disagree. The histerical people are in my opinion those
> who are constantly introducing these universal out-of-scope debates, and I
> shall explain the reasons for this opinion:
>
> 1) Several people become excited when they read that Nova Roma is a
> "micronation". Maybe they should hold their horses and pay as much
attention
> to the "micro-" as they pay to the "-nation".
>
> 2) No, micronations will not be able to put an end to the world's biggest
> problems: famine, war, environmental destruction, intolerance, tyranny,
etc.
> If you really want to solve these problems you should pay attention to the
> life of your macronation, join macronational social and political
> organisations, go to the streets to manifest your opinion to your or any
> other macronational government. Micronations are not to be used as
> Narcotics.
>

This micronation aspires to be a macronation. Unless you see NR as a fantasy
realm, you can't count the 21st century problems out.

> 3) If you are frustrated for having a corrupt macronational government,
> please do not bring your rage to the micronation, insulting the
> micronational government as you would like (but cannot) to insult your
> macronational government. In fact, Micronational governments rarely (or
> never) receive any salaries - think about that. A micronational government
> should be considered more as a working team than as a government.
>

Did I insult our government? I pointed out dangers, I did not say they're
effectively here.

> 4) If you want that little fraction of Nova Roma to keep doing all the
work,
> please respect the time those people loose every day to bring you little
> things such as face-to-face mettings, religious information, website
> management, etc.. Otherwise have the courage to become a target like them
> and candidate yourself in order to work more and perform better.

Why else am I here?

Valete bene!
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Controversy?
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 11:16:59 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Sexte Apolloni,

> Actually, all put together, it's quite simple: the Censores promulgate an
> edict, for the largest part because of the problems of one citizen. And for
> that very citizen, the edict proves to be unworkable. So what's the
> solution? Change it.

That's a rather bizarre concept... are you saying that any law should
be automatically done away with if the first person affected by it
is unhappy?

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Replies
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:17:25 -0700

Salvete Draco et Quiritibus;
-----Original Message-----
From: S. Apollonius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 6:06 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Replies

<big snip>

Draco writes:
I advise you to check out the
archives for the courses of my paterfamilias, Formosanus;
courses which most people seem to have forgotten.

OFS: Let me lend support and appreciation for
these lessons, which I have used myself and have
found to be very beneficial. Unfortunately, have
fallen a bit behind on the later installments, but
they are saved in a folder and am looking forward
to resuming them.

My exception to your statement here, is that it's
a strong assumption to state that many have
forgotten about them. If you truly feel thusly,
*republish* them again here, and again and again...
Attention spans are typically short on the main list -
with the generally heavy traffic generated, coupled
with the staggeringly busy schedules that many
of our cives have; it's easy to 'forget' things
or be pulled away into other projects. 'Out of sight,
out of mind' is an apt description I believe.

Perhaps Formosane and/or yourself could look into
the possibility of having the lessons published
on the NR web site, with a little shameless
promotion for the fact they exist there. Then
perhaps, increasing numbers of cives will take
the time to explore this truly worthwhile course
series. -Also, another shameless promotion of the
ScholaLatina alias would be helpful as well.
For that from which we can truly learn, can do
nothing but help us.

Draco writes:
Note: I'm not correcting your Latin mistake from a feeling of pedanterie or
superiority, I just find that the Latin mistakes made here on the main list
are too many.

OFS: Personally, I've been corrected by several cives
on my Latinitas (or lack thereof :-)Though I don't mind
it if done privately or even publicly in some cases,
you should understand that there are others that may
legitimately take public correction of things personally.
Many of us are trying to learn another language and if
someone more knowledgeable on the subject wishes to act
as "Latin Police" :-) <yes, there's a grin there,> then
a well-placed correction in a private e-mail to the
'offending' individual may be just the ticket.

I might again suggest to you that shameless promotion
of Formosane's Latin course as a better tactic.
Just as a suggestion.

<snipped>

Draco writes:
That's the crux of the matter: it's not about being devoted to The State,
but being devoted to the Romanitas, the Romanhood, so to speak. NR is an
empty bubble with administration only.

OFS: Oh, things were going so well and then this statement....
Well Draco, this is a most unfortunate thing to hear coming
from you. Though we may seldom agree on much politically, I've
always respected your tenaciousness and erudite nature
in arguing your points. I can only then suggest the following
to you:

1-If you feel there's no hope for us, then you might
want to truly consider either leaving, or continuing
with the 'citizenship reconsideration' period you mentioned
the other day. For those of us that don't
find NR an "empty bubble" and devote countless hours and
*actual* denarii, long-distance calls and office supplies
to the cause to make it better -this is an offensive
statement to say the least.

2-If you *do* feel there's hope for us, yet don't personally
like the way things are going, then I might suggest staying
strong, running for offices when you are able and support
candidates and platforms with which you agree. Such support
coupled with strong logical arguments always have a
good chance of success given our extremely intelligent
population.

3-In lieu of number two, perhaps you'd care to submit a
comprehensive plan (a 'blueprint for success' if you
will) to us as to how NR can stop being this
'empty' entity and become something more akin to your
notion of the ideal Roma. I for one, would be respectful
of such an endeavor and would promise a thorough and honest
review of any such proposal.

Bene valete,
Oppius

<snipped>

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Controversy?
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 17:42:20 +0100

Salve Sexte Apolloni Draco

>This micronation aspires to be a macronation. Unless you see NR as a
fantasy
>realm, you can't count the 21st century problems out.
Your problem is that you talk as naively as a child! Wake up man! Nova Roma
is VERY FAR from becoming a macronation! If Nova Roma wants to have any
possibilities of success in the long term (yes, long after you and be have
died!), it must concentrate on micro-problems (which, by the way are big
enough): Integration within macronational laws, creation of visible
Sodalicia (archaeological organisations, humanitarian organisations, etc.),
scholarships, financing archaeological excavations and preservation of Roman
monuments, etc.

>Did I insult our government? I pointed out dangers, I did not say they're
>effectively here.
The current Senate and magistrates will die long before those things become
a real danger. Don't be paranoic!

>Why else am I here?
Why? It seems to me that you are here to disturb Nova Roma and nothing else.
If you are too young to present real work, please shut up and wait for your
brain to grow up. In the meanwhile learn with those who have work done.

Vale
Antonius Gryllus Graecus

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Controversy?
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 11:51:04 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Antoni Grylle,

> >Why else am I here?
> Why? It seems to me that you are here to disturb Nova Roma and nothing else.
> If you are too young to present real work, please shut up and wait for your
> brain to grow up. In the meanwhile learn with those who have work done.

This is unfair and unduly harsh. Sextus Apollonius has shown his
dedication, with his work in the Sodalitates, clearly he is not here
to cause distruption. He has some strongly-held opinions that you
and I disagree with, but they are his legitimate beliefs and are not merely
part of an attempt to cause disruption.

And, considering his high level of competence in multiple languages,
and the quality of his writings, I think his brain is as fully grown
as anyone's.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Controversy?
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 17:51:01 +0100

Salvete Sexte Apolloni, Marce Octavi Germanice et al

Marcus Octavius Germanicus is right. I want to apollogize for my last post.

Valete bene
Antonius Gryllus Graecus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Corrections
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:53:31 +0200 (CEST)

Salvete, romani quirites; et salve, Draco

Nice to hear from you again! Now I'll try to flatter
you once more :-). For that to happen, you just have
to stick to reasonable and sensible oratory ;-).

Vale Bene.
Gnaeus Salix Astur, protocivis romanus.

--- "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
escribió: > Salve Nova Roma,
>
> Uh, it's truly getting late for me isn't it - just
> wanted to correct "which" which should have been
> "with" and that it should be "volunteerily" instead
> of "voluntarily" in my previous posting, plus my
> "from"-field contained the wrong name.
>
> Thanks for understanding.
>
> Vale bene,
> Draco
>

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Protocivis romanus.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Controversy?
From:	"Nick R. Ramos Jr." <nramos@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:55:00 -0000

Greetings, Draco!

I will respond to this particular post because something I have said
is being taken out of context:

--- In novaroma@--------, "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@p...>
wrote:
> Greetings, citizens of New Rome,
>
> Actually, all put together, it's quite simple: the Censores
promulgate an
> edict, for the largest part because of the problems of one citizen.
And for
> that very citizen, the edict proves to be unworkable. So what's the
> solution? Change it. Give it a NO when it comes up for a vote.
>
>
> Also, allow me to reply to two remarkable things I've read today.
>
>
> Marcus Cornelius Scipio scripsit, inter alia:
>
> ((snipped))
>
> > 2. Your replies to any and all alternatives to your point of view
> > seem
> > to fall into a generalized pattern of "ad hominem" attacks. This
is
> > not limited to you; I've seen others disparage the quality of the
> > Latin of some of our members, or even engaging in such puerile
games
> > as calling members of a particular Gens "podex lickers", etc. If
you
> > have valid points, you have no need of such attacks; if you do not
> > have valid points, such attacks belittle you before others.
> >
>
> Woho! I said that the quality of the basic Latin of °some
magistrates° and
> °some Senatores° should be °much° better. And while I
don't think
you're
> addressing me in those other phrases, I want to make it clear I've
never
> said those things.

I have not and will never accuse you of saying these things. I
actually enjoy conversing with you, because although you may disagree
with me, in general you have been very civil with me. If you read
this
post again, you may come to understand that I am talking about
comments made by several people in this and OTHER fora - emphasis on
several people; not directly addressed to you, Draco.

ALso, I am talking about the fact that the folks who have trumpeted
the loudest about this edicta have involved themselves in a
long-standing campaign of ad hominem attacks - that particular tactic
is what I am calling out as a worthless approach to problems.

I agree that the matter just needs to be voted upon and done with. We
should also agree that if the vote does not go the way of our
desires,
that we learn to respect the vote of those who did so.

>
> > 3.This particular issue has become blown completely out of
> > proprotion,
>
> Fully agreed.
>
> > even when the accomodations you and your supporters demanded were
> > integrated into the text of the new edict. If your objections were
> > answered, and your comments became an integral part of what was
> > finally published, why do you continue to scream that you are
being
> > excluded? Do you hope to gain political power by being the most
vocal
> > individual here? Is it your purpose to force us to accept your
views
> > in order to make you happy? If it didn't work for my two year old
> > niece, what makes you think that it will work for you?
> >
>
> Problem is, they made this edict to help him. But it didn't. Isn't
it
> reasonable to feel excluded then?

Draco, this is an issue that has a lot of people fed up for a simple
reason. An administrative measure was put in place to clarify a
procedure. Some individuals objected to how it was constructed, and
offered amendments. These amendments were incorporated, and the
procedure was set in place. To date, I have not seen the lictors drag
off Peregrinus for using a masculine name - in fact, I think she was
required to use the femenine form of her name once, to take an Oath
of
Office as required by our Constitution. I address her as Peregrinus,
and so does half of the population. And yet the howls are heard clear
to the Palatine. Why?

Because this is an attempt to gain special rights, above and beyond
those rights inherent to our citizenship. This is an attempt to gain
power by forcing others to do as I please because otherwise I will be
calling them fascists and Nazis and accusing them of every
unpleasantry under the sun. Is this in keeping with any sense of
Romanitas? Does this have anything to do with Nova Roma? No. It has
to
do with extremely childish behavior centered on the premise that if I
scream loudly enough, the rest of the kids in the playground will do
exactly what I want so I'll shut up.

Vote on the matter, and have it done and over with. I am fed up with
the personal attacks and innuendos I have seen floating around this
list for months now. I am interested in Roma, not in the petty
desires
for roleplaying and political power in what is to this date an
ephemeral construct. You have shown some great talent, Draco, and I
have seen some very beautiful work of yours here and elsewhere. Your
paterfamilias is to be commended for the excellent course in Latin he
has put together and graciously donated to our Res Publica. That is
why I am baffled by these monumental efforts to waste that talent on
issues that are as puerile as they are inconsequential. Again I ask
you all to really step back, and put this whole matter into
perspective - many of us are losing interest in this whole effort
because of these futile endeavors. Ask yourselves - is this really
why
I am here?

Optime Vale, et Iuppiter nos protegas!

Marius Cornelius Scipio

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Controversy?
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:55:36 -0000

Salvete Omnes:

I agree with Marcus Octavius Germanicus. Draco is a dedicated, intelligent
and hardworking civie.

Bene valete,
Pompeia Cornelia

>From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: RE: [novaroma] Controversy?
>Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 11:51:04 -0500 (CDT)
>
>Salve Antoni Grylle,
>
> > >Why else am I here?
> > Why? It seems to me that you are here to disturb Nova Roma and nothing
>else.
> > If you are too young to present real work, please shut up and wait for
>your
> > brain to grow up. In the meanwhile learn with those who have work done.
>
>This is unfair and unduly harsh. Sextus Apollonius has shown his
>dedication, with his work in the Sodalitates, clearly he is not here
>to cause distruption. He has some strongly-held opinions that you
>and I disagree with, but they are his legitimate beliefs and are not merely
>part of an attempt to cause disruption.
>
>And, considering his high level of competence in multiple languages,
>and the quality of his writings, I think his brain is as fully grown
>as anyone's.
>
>Vale, Octavius.
>
>--
>M. Octavius Germanicus
>Propraetor, Lacus Magni
>Curator Araneum et Senator
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Is there a pontiff in the house?
From:	Andrea Gladia Kyrinia <andrea_gladia@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:58:51 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete!

I have sent out a number of emails and they don't seem to be reaching
our beloved pontiffs. Would someone please email me to verify that the
emails were received, as some of them contained important information
regarding the rites for the priesthood of Apollo?

Gratias tibi ago,

=====
Andrea Gladia Kyrinia
Apollinis Templi Sacerdos
Materfamilias of Gladia
*******************************************
Yahoo: kyreneariadne / andrea_gladia / andrea_m_berman
AIM: Kyrene Ariadne / la Amberman ICQ: 6663573
http://TempleApollo.faithweb.com

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: A Boy Named Sue
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 19:01:19 +0200 (CEST)

Salvete, romani; et salve, Octavie Germanie.

--- Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
escribió: > Salve Marce Senti,
>
> > You totally miss the point, we can still have an
> incorporated entity, but it
> > does not need to be US based/resident. Think
> outside of the box.
>
> But it has to be incorporated *somewhere*, and
> unless the laws are
> hugely different elsewhere, enough so to make it
> worthwhile, it makes
> sense to do it in a location relatively convenient
> for most of
> the senior magistrates at the time of incorporation.
>
>
> Vale, Octavius.
>
> --
> M. Octavius Germanicus
> Propraetor, Lacus Magni
> Curator Araneum et Senator
>

As far as I know, laws ARE sometimes quite different.
Antifraud laws are sticter in some places and more
relaxed in others. Same things happen with taxes due
by corporations to the macronational government.

As an example, in my own micronation (Spain), there
are quite important differences between autonomous
regions' legislations on these two issues. Probably,
something similar happens in other countries.

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Protocivis romanus.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Song From Gladiator
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 19:23:07 +0200 (CEST)

Salvete omnes, et salve, Minucie Hadriane.

--- Adrian Gunn <shinjikun@--------> escribió: >
Salvete!
>
> Does anyone know what language(s) the lyrics of the
> song "Now we are
> free" from the Gladiator soundtrack are being sung
> in?
>
> Valete,
>
> C. Minucius Hadrianus
> Legatus of Massachusetts
>

Sorry. I don't know the answer. But I really LOVE that
soundtrack :-).

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Protocivis romanus.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Excuse me...
From:	bvm3@--------
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:33:37 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus Aedilis Plebeius omnibus Quiritibus
S.P.D.

I would like to say a few words in reply to Censor L.
Equitius Cincinnatus. Let me first make it clear that I have
hitherto in this debate neither addressed nor attacked him. My
remarks were directed towards Censor Sulla, and the fact that
he had offended a citizen by refusing to acknowledge his true
gender. I note with regret that Censor Equitius has also in this
post done the same.

I do not like to fight with them, but a systematic and
apparently willful refusal to come to terms with the scientific fact
that personal gender and bodily gender may in a certain
percentage of any human population be different has led them to
change a citizen's name in a way offensive to the citizen. It has
also led one of them to initiate legislation that would make this
unscientific and discriminatory policy still more firmly entrenched
in our national life. This disrespect for a minority different from
themselves, refusing to acknowledge its right to exist and be as it
is has resulted in hurts, injustice and conflict.

________________________________
Lucius Equitius scripsit
________________________________

Lucius Marius Peregrinus scripsit:
Subject: Excuse me...
Salvete omnes...

I shall have a little to say about the 'dual-citizenship' defense of
the present name-change edict in a later post. However, as
much as I hope to keep debate on the edict focussed on its
merits (and those of my alternative proposal, if any), I do not
think I can venture much further into said debate until our senior
Censor and I get something cleared up:

Sulla scripsit:
> I have to disagree with Lucius Sergius. Given the fact that this
> issue has come up more than once, by Lucia Maria.

Censor Sulla:
According to both the wording of the edict and your own (very
many) reassurances to me last spring and summer, the terms of
the edict do not affect any alias, chat handle, or e-mail handle a
Citizen cares to adopt. I have been told repeatedly that,
whatever my name might be on the records, I have the right to
be addressed in day-to-day transactions however I please. It is
only in an official context--such as my Governor's appointment
of me to the Legateship of myRegio--that my officially-recorded
Roman name *must* be used.

That being said (over and over)...I object to your referring to me
by the feminine version of my name. It is both patently offensive
to me (as you have been aware for years) and completely
unnecessary (as no 'official business' or oath is involved).

I am willing to debate any aspect of the name-change edict with
you or anyone else on its merits--but not if you fail to show
myself and other Citizens the bit of respect we expect, and
demand, from our Magistrates. This goes double if a tax
measure is enacted; and the most highly-placed Magistrates
ought to be leading the way for all the rest.

I appreciate your time and attention to this issue in future.

In fides,

-- L Marius Peregrinus
Legatus, Provinciae America Austroccidentalis
Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, Historical Re-Creationist
and Citizen of Rome

Censor Lucius Equitius Cincincinntus: This is where the problem
can be found. The citizen who holds the position of Legata
Provincia America Austroccidentalis is Lucia Maria Peregrina.
That she is a Storyteller is in no dispute, but I don't think she has
retired from being a 'Roleplayer'.

MAF: This smacks of implying that being a transsexual is rôle-
play. It is not. Any competent psychologist or psychiatrist can
tell you that this is involuntary. It is also not much fun for the
person involved, especially when meeting with the
incomprehension, ignorance and prejudice of others in the
surrounding society. A Censor, who is responsible for dealing
with all segments of the population, including transsexuals,
should have at least enough layman's knowlege of the
psychological realities to avoid this kind of comment that is
personally hurtful and offensive - not to mention avoiding
legislation that implies that the word of a transsexual about his or
her gender is not to be believed.
____________________

Since she used her official title she should use her officially
recorded name, Lucia Maria Peregrina. Veritas: "Truthfulness"
Honesty in dealing with others, "we expect, and demand, from
our Magistrates." no less.

MAF: I think that you, I, Sulla, and Marius all understand the
situation. I.e., Marius is a man with a body not matching that
personal gender. Veritas for me means stating and using the
gender one sincerely perceives to be one's own. Marius has
done so. Laws and regulations that make it difficult or impossible
to express that veritas should be eliminated or revised - as well
as attitudes on some peoples' parts.
____________________________

Formosanus;
The person who has the most right to speak about this has
spoken - ...

L Equitius: Who do you think you are, Formosanus, to say who
has more 'right' or 'the most right' to speak on any subject? That
having been said, what gives you any more right than anyone
else to pontificate?

MAF: I think it obvious that the person most directly involved
has the *most* right to speak.
________________

Formosanus;
I also note the aptness of Marius' comments on taxation - all of
us who have been around for a few months and paying attention
know that the Censor's office is one place that has its eye on
some of the prospective tax money from our pockets (quite
justifiably so).

L Equitius: This is untrue! I have asked for NOTHING;
however, I have 'donated' countless hours to administrative
duties, used my own printer ink and paper and made long
distance calls as well. Also, I have supported Nova
Roma financially by making purchases from the Mecellum books
store, JBL and other items from the site. For all this I get to read
absurd rhetoric and outright falsehoods.

MAF: I was not referring to you, mi Equiti, but to Sulla. Of
course the kind gift of M. Marcius Rex saved him for this year.
In any case, if we have taxes, I am *in favour* of the Censors
being reimbursed, because that will permit persons of any
financial status to serve in this position. Neither you nor Sulla
has, insofar as I know, done anything improper in this respect -
but the thought of tax monies being paid by citizens to help
functionaries who are not polite enough in return to address
those citizens by their stated gender is something that many
people might well find offensive. That last was my only point -
no one doubts your personal generosity or financial integrity, and
I go on record to that effect, and willingly thank both you and
Censor Sulla for your hard work for Nova Roma.
_________________

Formosanus;
Functionaries might indeed be expected to be more respectful of
the dignitas of the citizens whom they are *serving*. The Senior
Censor doubtless would not wish to be addressed as "Lucia
Cornelia Sulla Felix" just because someone else has a strange
notion of sexual attribution which he insists on applying to others
against their will. Our elected servants of the People should
indeed show more courtesy, sensitivity, and tolerance -
otherwise, why would they expect to receive respect from the
People in turn?

L Equitius: Is it really 'a strange notion of sexual attribution' to use
feminine words when addressing a female?

MAF: It is indeed a *very* strange notion when you or Sulla
addresses as though he were a woman someone who has made
his masculine gender perfectly clear. It makes one feel that you
have never internalised the reality that some people do not have
the gender that their external sexual characteristics would -
misleadingly - seem to indicate. That however is a matter of
scientific fact, and not to acknowledge it because of prejudices
is certainly to treat your fellow human being in a disrespectful
and even insulting way, as well as being injurious to intellectual
honesty. I apologise if that sounds harsh, but to me it is
important for a good and honourable person to take due
cognizance of scientific fact, especially when the alternative is to
cause hurt to others.
________________

Is it disrespectful to do so? I don't think so. As has been pointed
out by my colleague there are provisions for name changes;
however, for one reason or other these actions have not
been taken. Rather they insists we change to suit them.

MAF: I am not talking about any specific cases as you seem to
be. But certainly when provisions are unreasonably burdensome
and reflect an attitude that the simple word of the person
concerned is suspect, problems naturally appear, and the service
of the citizen is impaired.
________

Formosanus:
And certainly I would welcome an alternative the the present
Gender (Name Change) Edictum... but I shall discuss that
elsewhere.

L Equitius: Pehaps you could direct those interested to the
archives, since you have previously beaten this subject to death.
Would you, as a Latin scholar, have us ignore the very nature of
the Latin language?

MAF: Personal gender is mental or spiritual. Naturally the
gender of a name in Latin should follow that of a person's true
personal gender, not that of physical appearances. As a pontifex
I might wonder that you neglect a person's spiritual gender and
emphasise the merely outward and physical in such a
materialistic way.

I don't think most people, by far, agree with your views.
See the poll at,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma/surveys?id=201217

MAF: I see that 50.46% voted that one should simply have a
free choice of name gender or that one should have the right to
choose on condition that one is actually living according to that
chosen gender in their everyday (non-internet) lives. Only
41.28% voted that that one's "legal" (driver's licence) gender
must be followed. Thus, a majority at the time of that poll seems
to be sympathetic to my view, in fact.

But it is wrong to think about these things in terms of power,
whether of states or magistrates or majorities. We are talking
about a natural right of human beings to be respected for what
they are - including those reasonably infrequent cases when
there is a difference between bodily and real genders. No
authority and no group has an ethical right to deny that respect
or that freedom.

I am sorry that to such a great and unnecessary extent this
discussion has been turned into a battle between some claiming a
"right" to insult others by calling them by a gender they do not
acknowledge, and some who simply desire politeness of all
towards all and respect for each person's individuality, but are
lured into publicly recognising problems with others' basic
honesty and human kindness. I would much rather insofar as
possible avoid personalities, and debate the issues of fact and
justice involved so that we could get decent legislation that
would protect people instead of institutionalising prejudice.

Valete!

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] President Bush on Virgil
From:	margali <margali@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:08:44 -0400

The only problem with The Onion is that it is a satire and spoof
website. Go to their main page and fergawdssake actually read all
of the articles. I mean, really!
"Nation Awaits Word on Today's Slam Dunks"
"Report: Clinton Accepted Rebate While In Office Depot"
"Fifth Level of Video Game Reached During Phone Call to Mom"
"Role of Tree Ineptly Played by Second-Grader"
*snerk*
margali
Hyapatia Asinia

--

MarilynTraber@--------
HTTP://WWW.FictionForest.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Quote Starts Here:

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: A boy named Sue
From:	nous_athanatos@--------
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:41:41 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Devr--------ark (Packaging House Auckland)"
>
> 1> It is unenforcable anyway. If someone really wants to change
their sex,
> they just need to re-apply for citizenship as a new citizen and let
their
> previous "persona" lapse into inactivity or activly resign
citizenship.
> Nova Roma could moniter all addresses that register, rather than
all people,
> but (a) if a brother and sister use the same Internet Server to
enroll it
> would flag them and (b) it is easy enough to change service
providers unless
> you live in a third world country like Australia. (sorry - just
kidding).

But what is the point? I am not *macronationally* related to anyone
in my gens, which is just as relevant as the gender issue. Are we
going to require adoption at the macronational level for someone
to 'join' a gens?

How is gender any different? Why should it be required to reflect
macronational status when so many other things do not?

No one objects to us 'roleplaying' families.

T. Clodius Mercurialis

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Replies
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:45:14 +0200

Salve Luci Maurici,

> Salve Sexte Apolloni Draco S.P.D.
> I made a comment in a recent post about your Latin comment. Please take it
> with a grain of salt. I understand your intentions were good. As a matter
of
> fact, I will go back to properly addressing my posts if you will pledge to
> Email me privately and tell me when I've made a mistake.
> I'll take a step to conform to your view of Romanitas if you will help me.
> In this way we can show both sides of this bickering that there are as
many
> ways to work together as there are to pull apart. I hope you will take me
up
> on this offer.

I will! Excpect a private email from me :-).

Vale bene,
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Excuse me...
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:35:30 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Marce Apolloni,

It is a common debating tactic to redefine words to suit one's
own purposes, a tactic that you tend to use all too frequently.
I feel that I must point out where you have done so, lest newcomers
be unduly influenced by these self-serving redefinitions.

> ...by refusing to acknowledge his true gender.

Here, you use the phrase "true gender", a bit of a stretch even for
one sympathetic to your position. "Physical gender" and "mental
gender" are much more accurate and descriptive terms. Your use
of "true" is an attempt to steer the course of the discussion by
changing the meanings of words.

> I do not like to fight with them, but a systematic and
> apparently willful refusal to come to terms with the scientific fact
> that personal gender and bodily gender may in a certain
> percentage of any human population be different

A "personal gender" includes the "bodily gender", for the body is
a significant component of the person. "mental gender" or
"self-identified gender" or even "spiritual gender" would be much
more precise. If you make this change, in the interests of
accuracy, your statement then becomes true; "personal gender" is
too vague and all-encompassing to be a useful term.

> It has also led one of them to initiate legislation that would
> make this unscientific and discriminatory policy

There is nothing whatsoever about the policy that is "unscientific".
It makes no assertations that are in conflict with any sciences.
Nowhere does it say that there is no such thing as "mental gender"
different from "physical gender", nor does it contradict any
scientific principles. Your use of "unscientific" is a red herring.

> refusing to acknowledge its right to exist and be as it is

Requiring accuracy in official records is hardly a refusal
of anyone's right to exist.

> has resulted in hurts, injustice and conflict.

But of course, your dogmatic insistence in getting your own way has
not been the source of any hurts, injustice, or conflict. Not at all.

> MAF: This smacks of implying that being a transsexual is rôle-
> play. It is not. Any competent psychologist or psychiatrist can
> tell you that this is involuntary. It is also not much fun for the
> person involved, especially when meeting with the
> incomprehension, ignorance and prejudice of others in the
> surrounding society.

It's probably not much fun either when well-meaning but misguided
activists insist on repeatedly bringing a deeply personal affair into
the focus of public attention time and time again.

> MAF: I think that you, I, Sulla, and Marius all understand the
> situation. I.e., Marius is a man with a body not matching that
> personal gender.

Now you're deliberately misrepresenting someone else's understanding
of a situation. If the Censores believe Marius to be a "man" then
let them speak for themselves.

> Veritas for me means stating and using the gender one sincerely
> perceives to be one's own.

If I believed myself to be a god, would it be "veritas" to acknowledge
me as such?

> Marius has done so. Laws and regulations that make it difficult or
> impossible to express that veritas should be eliminated or revised

To express *your* definition of "veritas".

> MAF: I think it obvious that the person most directly involved
> has the *most* right to speak.

It seems to me that the Censores who maintain the list of Citizens'
names are as directly involved as anyone.

> It makes one feel that you have never internalised the reality

"Internalized the reality".

How unbearably pompous of you. Anyone who disagrees with your
opinions has simply failed to "internalize the reality".

> that some people do not have the gender
> that their external sexual characteristics would - misleadingly -
> seem to indicate. That however is a matter of scientific fact,

Please provide a reference for this so-called "scientific fact".
I suspect you won't find any scientific documents that use such
phrases as "true gender", "have the gender" and "misleadingly
seem to indicate".

> but to me it is
> important for a good and honourable person to take due
> due cognizance of scientific fact,

Again you seem to think your opinions are scientific fact.

> MAF: I am not talking about any specific cases as you seem to
> be. But certainly when provisions are unreasonably burdensome

Photocopying a driver's license and mailing it in?

> MAF: Personal gender is mental or spiritual. Naturally the
> gender of a name in Latin should follow that of a person's true
> personal gender, not that of physical appearances.

The physical gender is as "true" as any other.

> - including those reasonably infrequent cases when
> there is a difference between bodily and real genders.

Again you misuse the word "real"... fortunately, no one here is
fooled by your twisting of words to suit your goals. It is absurd
to believe that one person's desires, no matter how strongly felt,
are more "real" or "true" than the observable, physical world.

Vale, Octavius.

---
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Replies
From:	"a green little martian called Meule" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:36:21 +0200

Salve Oppi Flacce!

((snipped))

> Draco writes:
> Note: I'm not correcting your Latin mistake from a feeling of pedanterie
or
> superiority, I just find that the Latin mistakes made here on the main
list
> are too many.
>
> OFS: Personally, I've been corrected by several cives
> on my Latinitas (or lack thereof :-)Though I don't mind
> it if done privately or even publicly in some cases,
> you should understand that there are others that may
> legitimately take public correction of things personally.
> Many of us are trying to learn another language and if
> someone more knowledgeable on the subject wishes to act
> as "Latin Police" :-) <yes, there's a grin there,> then
> a well-placed correction in a private e-mail to the
> 'offending' individual may be just the ticket.
>
> I might again suggest to you that shameless promotion
> of Formosane's Latin course as a better tactic.
> Just as a suggestion.
>
> <snipped>
>

Good suggestions. But I think Formosanus could better repost his own work
than I do it for him. I did send an Excel spreadsheet with the proper
declensions to Lucius Mauricius today, which people could find useful (even
though it °may° contain mistakes!). If anyone wants it, feel free to ask me!

> Draco writes:
> That's the crux of the matter: it's not about being devoted to The State,
> but being devoted to the Romanitas, the Romanhood, so to speak. NR is an
> empty bubble with administration only.
>
> OFS: Oh, things were going so well and then this statement....
> Well Draco, this is a most unfortunate thing to hear coming
> from you. Though we may seldom agree on much politically, I've
> always respected your tenaciousness and erudite nature
> in arguing your points. I can only then suggest the following
> to you:
>
> 1-If you feel there's no hope for us, then you might
> want to truly consider either leaving, or continuing
> with the 'citizenship reconsideration' period you mentioned
> the other day. For those of us that don't
> find NR an "empty bubble" and devote countless hours and
> *actual* denarii, long-distance calls and office supplies
> to the cause to make it better -this is an offensive
> statement to say the least.
>
> 2-If you *do* feel there's hope for us, yet don't personally
> like the way things are going, then I might suggest staying
> strong, running for offices when you are able and support
> candidates and platforms with which you agree. Such support
> coupled with strong logical arguments always have a
> good chance of success given our extremely intelligent
> population.
>
> 3-In lieu of number two, perhaps you'd care to submit a
> comprehensive plan (a 'blueprint for success' if you
> will) to us as to how NR can stop being this
> 'empty' entity and become something more akin to your
> notion of the ideal Roma. I for one, would be respectful
> of such an endeavor and would promise a thorough and honest
> review of any such proposal.

As I corrected in a later email, I didn't mean my last phrase to sound like
that. What I mean was: IF there is administration only, NR is an empty
bubble. I'm not saying it is so, even though at times it's coming close. See
my posting "Another Correction". What would be nice for NR, however, is to
"depoliticize". No matter how much I promote my non-political lists, they're
still inactively lying about. It seems that it's always the same people who
have to start debates over and over again.

Rather than to re-institutue social norms, I'd rather see the culture and
philosophy flourish here, instead of petty politics and
over-administrazation of everything. Come to think of it: most active
citizens here hold more than one title. For further analysis of this see an
earlier post named "Replies". To which only one person replied, even though
it was meant to provoke a debate about NR's future.

Vale bene!
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Replies
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:49:57 +0200

Sigh

The "from" field of this email should have been S. Apollonius Draco. Boy am
I distracted lately!

> Salve Oppi Flacce!
>
>
> ((snipped))
>
> > Draco writes:
> > Note: I'm not correcting your Latin mistake from a feeling of pedanterie
> or
> > superiority, I just find that the Latin mistakes made here on the main
> list
> > are too many.
> >
> > OFS: Personally, I've been corrected by several cives
> > on my Latinitas (or lack thereof :-)Though I don't mind
> > it if done privately or even publicly in some cases,
> > you should understand that there are others that may
> > legitimately take public correction of things personally.
> > Many of us are trying to learn another language and if
> > someone more knowledgeable on the subject wishes to act
> > as "Latin Police" :-) <yes, there's a grin there,> then
> > a well-placed correction in a private e-mail to the
> > 'offending' individual may be just the ticket.
> >
> > I might again suggest to you that shameless promotion
> > of Formosane's Latin course as a better tactic.
> > Just as a suggestion.
> >
> > <snipped>
> >
>
> Good suggestions. But I think Formosanus could better repost his own work
> than I do it for him. I did send an Excel spreadsheet with the proper
> declensions to Lucius Mauricius today, which people could find useful
(even
> though it °may° contain mistakes!). If anyone wants it, feel free to ask
me!
>
> > Draco writes:
> > That's the crux of the matter: it's not about being devoted to The
State,
> > but being devoted to the Romanitas, the Romanhood, so to speak. NR is an
> > empty bubble with administration only.
> >
> > OFS: Oh, things were going so well and then this statement....
> > Well Draco, this is a most unfortunate thing to hear coming
> > from you. Though we may seldom agree on much politically, I've
> > always respected your tenaciousness and erudite nature
> > in arguing your points. I can only then suggest the following
> > to you:
> >
> > 1-If you feel there's no hope for us, then you might
> > want to truly consider either leaving, or continuing
> > with the 'citizenship reconsideration' period you mentioned
> > the other day. For those of us that don't
> > find NR an "empty bubble" and devote countless hours and
> > *actual* denarii, long-distance calls and office supplies
> > to the cause to make it better -this is an offensive
> > statement to say the least.
> >
> > 2-If you *do* feel there's hope for us, yet don't personally
> > like the way things are going, then I might suggest staying
> > strong, running for offices when you are able and support
> > candidates and platforms with which you agree. Such support
> > coupled with strong logical arguments always have a
> > good chance of success given our extremely intelligent
> > population.
> >
> > 3-In lieu of number two, perhaps you'd care to submit a
> > comprehensive plan (a 'blueprint for success' if you
> > will) to us as to how NR can stop being this
> > 'empty' entity and become something more akin to your
> > notion of the ideal Roma. I for one, would be respectful
> > of such an endeavor and would promise a thorough and honest
> > review of any such proposal.
>
> As I corrected in a later email, I didn't mean my last phrase to sound
like
> that. What I mean was: IF there is administration only, NR is an empty
> bubble. I'm not saying it is so, even though at times it's coming close.
See
> my posting "Another Correction". What would be nice for NR, however, is to
> "depoliticize". No matter how much I promote my non-political lists,
they're
> still inactively lying about. It seems that it's always the same people
who
> have to start debates over and over again.
>
> Rather than to re-institutue social norms, I'd rather see the culture and
> philosophy flourish here, instead of petty politics and
> over-administrazation of everything. Come to think of it: most active
> citizens here hold more than one title. For further analysis of this see
an
> earlier post named "Replies". To which only one person replied, even
though
> it was meant to provoke a debate about NR's future.
>
> Vale bene!
> Draco
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Replies
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:43:27 -0700

Salve Little Green Martian :-)

Yes, I must say that I was taken aback at
the title line on the last mail; not a problem
at all. In fact, more than once I've mailed
my boss of all people from my Oppius Flaccus
account and had to subsequently explain the
'oopsie' and answer the usual questions like
"what's an Oppius Flaccus?"

(I have multiple mail accounts
being delivered to the same mail client.)

In regards to your corrections, I have
seen some of them since posting my original
response. Due the wonders of Internet space/
time differentials, my post hit before I
had read all your previous replies. -Happens
to all of us. So, with that in mind; if you
could forward me a copy of the mail that was
to start the new debate about Nova Roma's
future, I'll be happy to use that one instead
as the basis of a reply.

As for the Latin declension spreadsheet
that a certain kindly little green martian
suggested; I would very much like a copy
delivered to me as well whenever you have
a moment.

Bene vale,
Oppius (pompous titles and color codes omitted for brevity :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: S. Apollonius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 12:50 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Replies

Sigh

The "from" field of this email should have been S. Apollonius Draco. Boy am
I distracted lately!

<snipped>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Greetings, from a Psuedo-Newcomer
From:	blackuni@--------
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:34:51 -0000

I wanted to take a minute to say hello to everyone as I begin to jump
back into things. Technically I became a citizen in July of last
year, but have not been very active due to personal situations that
have now been alleviated.

I am now safely settled in my own home in the sunny Silicon Valley,
after leaving the El Paso desert, with a new job that requires far
less of my time and many more perks, and am able to once again turn
my attention to pursuits of pleasure.

My interest in Nova Roma began with my childhood fascination of Greek
and Roman mythology, and my own fascination for ancient civilizations
and how they affect our lives today. My interest was expanded when
certain "memories" were surfaced of a life in Rome, or at the very
least a Roman society.

I am a Pagan whose primary Gods are those of a Celtic pantheon, but
who holds Roman Gods very dear in her heart. I look forward to
continuing my studies of Roman culture and religion, as well as
acheiving a working knowledge of Latin.

For personal information, I'm a single woman of 32, an aspiring
writer and published poet, part time philosopher and a full time
observer of mankind.

So, there it is...and here I am...

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Greetings, from a Psuedo-Newcomer
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:54:33 +0200

>I wanted to take a minute to say hello to everyone as I begin to jump
>back into things. Technically I became a citizen in July of last
>year, but have not been very active due to personal situations that
>have now been alleviated.
>
>I am now safely settled in my own home in the sunny Silicon Valley,
>after leaving the El Paso desert, with a new job that requires far
>less of my time and many more perks, and am able to once again turn
>my attention to pursuits of pleasure.
>
>My interest in Nova Roma began with my childhood fascination of Greek
>and Roman mythology, and my own fascination for ancient civilizations
>and how they affect our lives today. My interest was expanded when
>certain "memories" were surfaced of a life in Rome, or at the very
>least a Roman society.
>
>I am a Pagan whose primary Gods are those of a Celtic pantheon, but
>who holds Roman Gods very dear in her heart. I look forward to
>continuing my studies of Roman culture and religion, as well as
>acheiving a working knowledge of Latin.
>
>For personal information, I'm a single woman of 32, an aspiring
>writer and published poet, part time philosopher and a full time
>observer of mankind.
>
>So, there it is...and here I am...

Salve!

Welcome! I just would like to know your Roman name!

Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Greetings, from a Psuedo-Newcomer
From:	"Gaia Natalina Casca" <blackuni@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:03:13 -0000

Ah, oops...I thought I had put that in there somewhere! I am Gaia
Natalina Casca...

--- In novaroma@--------, Christer Edling <tjalens.h@t...> wrote:
> >I wanted to take a minute to say hello to everyone as I begin to
jump
> >back into things. Technically I became a citizen in July of last
> >year, but have not been very active due to personal situations that
> >have now been alleviated.
> >
> >I am now safely settled in my own home in the sunny Silicon Valley,
> >after leaving the El Paso desert, with a new job that requires far
> >less of my time and many more perks, and am able to once again turn
> >my attention to pursuits of pleasure.
> >
> >My interest in Nova Roma began with my childhood fascination of
Greek
> >and Roman mythology, and my own fascination for ancient
civilizations
> >and how they affect our lives today. My interest was expanded when
> >certain "memories" were surfaced of a life in Rome, or at the very
> >least a Roman society.
> >
> >I am a Pagan whose primary Gods are those of a Celtic pantheon, but
> >who holds Roman Gods very dear in her heart. I look forward to
> >continuing my studies of Roman culture and religion, as well as
> >acheiving a working knowledge of Latin.
> >
> >For personal information, I'm a single woman of 32, an aspiring
> >writer and published poet, part time philosopher and a full time
> >observer of mankind.
> >
> >So, there it is...and here I am...
>
> Salve!
>
> Welcome! I just would like to know your Roman name!
>
> Vale
>
> Christer Edling
> alias
> Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> Quaestor of Nova Roma
> Propraetor of Thule
> Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus
>
> The Opinions expressed are my own,
> and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
> ************************************************
> Join the Main List for Nova Roma
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
> ************************************************
> Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
> "I'll either find a way or make one"
> ************************************************
> "Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
> ************************************************
> SHAMALI SALUKIS
> ************************************************
> CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
> Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
> ************************************************
> IF GAMES - If reality was different!
> Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
> ************************************************

&g--------AIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: --------ens.h@-------- > ************************************************
> PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
> DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
> MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Replies
From:	Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Apr 2001 00:29:31 +0200

"S. Apollonius Draco" wrote:
> I'm not saying you or anyone should appease traditionalists. But Roman
> soceity is linked with Latin. Also, what I mean by "decent Latin" is at
> least that people get their vocatives right, or know how to form plurals of
> some words. I find that the SodLat should play a more important role in
> this I advise you to check out the archives for the courses of my paterfamilias, > Formosanus; courses which most people seem to have forgotten.
>
> That's the crux of the matter: it's not about being devoted to The State,
> but being devoted to the Romanitas, the Romanhood, so to speak. NR is an
> empty bubble with administration only.
((Heavily snipped))

Salve, Sexte Apolloni Draco.

I'm new to Nova Roma, and must therefore apologize for my ignorance. I
believed Nova Roma was about constructing a new society in the roman
spirit, not reconstructing Roma Antiqua.

However, I still don't see why it should be a requirement to use proper
latin at all times. Unless you were just tired of bad latin, meaning
that either you speak latin properly or you don't speak it at all. I
myself know next to no latin, but I feel that some words (salve, vale)
helps making my e-mail at least seem more roman.

Also, as I mentioned in my e-mail, I'm quite fond of the latin language,
and would be interested in learning as much as possible. I'd very much
appreciate being able to study the courses of Formosanus, although I
don't particularly appreciate searching through archives for them. I
therefore wholeheartedly support Oppius Flaccus Severus' idea of putting
them on the Nova Roman website. If you'd like, I've got some server
space I'd be happy to put to good use.

Let me apologize to any rudeness on my part, and tell you beforehand
that no offense was intended. I very much respect your skills, as well
as your devotion to Nova Roma, and hope you will not bear me any ill
will.

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consilarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

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Subject:	[novaroma] A new member of gens Vedia
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:58:46 -0400

Salvete

It is with boundless pleasure that I would like to welcome Vedia Juliana
(aka Samantha Morgan Bloch) to gens Vedia. She was born last night at 10:22
eastern time via caesarian section, weighing 9 pounds 3 ounces and measuring
20 inches in length. She and her mother, Priscilla Vedia, are resting
comfortably in the hospital (due to be released Saturday), and her father
(yours truly) is bouncing off the walls with joy and pride. :-)

Next year in the Forum!

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A new member of gens Vedia
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:07:29 -0700

CONGRATULATIONS!!!! from the Gens Cornelia!! Best wishes to you and your
family!

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 3:58 PM
Subject: [novaroma] A new member of gens Vedia

> Salvete
>
> It is with boundless pleasure that I would like to welcome Vedia Juliana
> (aka Samantha Morgan Bloch) to gens Vedia. She was born last night at
10:22
> eastern time via caesarian section, weighing 9 pounds 3 ounces and
measuring
> 20 inches in length. She and her mother, Priscilla Vedia, are resting
> comfortably in the hospital (due to be released Saturday), and her father
> (yours truly) is bouncing off the walls with joy and pride. :-)
>
> Next year in the Forum!
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
> email: germanicus@--------
> AIM: Flavius Vedius
> ICQ: 106199729
> www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] I've been away...
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 19:06:50 -0400

Salvete!

My apologies for having been absent the last couple of days. I've been...
busy. :-)

(Did I mention my daughter was born last night!?!?!? WOOHOOOOOO!!! Now I
have a reason to set up a gens Vedia website!)

I'll try to catch up on the enormous backlog of mail which I see from the
headers deals with a variety of very important (both generally and to me)
issues. I beg the patience and understanding of everyone here...

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: A new member of gens Vedia
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:15:19 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...> wrote:
> Salvete
>
> It is with boundless pleasure that I would like to welcome Vedia Juliana
> (aka Samantha Morgan Bloch) to gens Vedia. She was born last night
at 10:22
> eastern time via caesarian section, weighing 9 pounds 3 ounces and
measuring
> 20 inches in length. She and her mother, Priscilla Vedia, are resting
> comfortably in the hospital (due to be released Saturday), and her
father
> (yours truly) is bouncing off the walls with joy and pride. :-)
>
> Next year in the Forum!
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>

> email: germa--------s@-------- > AIM: Flavius Vedius
> ICQ: 106199729
> www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] I've been away...
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:18:06 -0700

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A truly momentous day for Nova Roma! Not every day anymore,
that someone is born into a consular family.

No apologies necessary to us I think, am just amazed that you're
bouncing back this quickly. I was out for days when our little
miracle arrived. :-)

So, do we get to see some digital pics?

Bene valete from Gens Flacca;
-Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus [mailto:germanicus@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 4:07 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] I've been away...

Salvete!

My apologies for having been absent the last couple of days. I've been...
busy. :-)

(Did I mention my daughter was born last night!?!?!? WOOHOOOOOO!!! Now I
have a reason to set up a gens Vedia website!)

I'll try to catch up on the enormous backlog of mail which I see from the
headers deals with a variety of very important (both generally and to me)
issues. I beg the patience and understanding of everyone here...

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A new member of gens Vedia
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:02:03 -0500

Congratulation sir, I am truly happy for you!! {:-)

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 5:58 PM
Subject: [novaroma] A new member of gens Vedia

> Salvete
>
> It is with boundless pleasure that I would like to welcome Vedia Juliana
> (aka Samantha Morgan Bloch) to gens Vedia. She was born last night at
10:22
> eastern time via caesarian section, weighing 9 pounds 3 ounces and
measuring
> 20 inches in length. She and her mother, Priscilla Vedia, are resting
> comfortably in the hospital (due to be released Saturday), and her father
> (yours truly) is bouncing off the walls with joy and pride. :-)
>
> Next year in the Forum!
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
> email: germanicus@--------
> AIM: Flavius Vedius
> ICQ: 106199729
> www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] I've been away...
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 19:26:25 -0400

Salve: My most hearty and sincere congratulations. The Gods and Goddesses
be praised. My best wishes for the whole family. I hope everyone is healthy
and fine. Best wishes to the family, and great big WELCOME to the new
citizen. I will drink a toast to all of your family tonight with a nice
glass of fine red wine. Ave atque vale, ... A. Cato, Rogator
----- Original Message -----
From: "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 7:06 PM
Subject: [novaroma] I've been away...

> Salvete!
>
> My apologies for having been absent the last couple of days. I've been...
> busy. :-)
>
> (Did I mention my daughter was born last night!?!?!? WOOHOOOOOO!!! Now I
> have a reason to set up a gens Vedia website!)
>
> I'll try to catch up on the enormous backlog of mail which I see from the
> headers deals with a variety of very important (both generally and to me)
> issues. I beg the patience and understanding of everyone here...
>
> Next year in the Forum!
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
> email: germanicus@--------
> AIM: Flavius Vedius
> ICQ: 106199729
> www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A new member of gens Vedia
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:35:30 -0000

Salve Honoured Consul:

Oh a girl!!! And a very BIG girl at that!!! Oh, my!!! I am so happy for
you and Priscilla. Please give her my best!!

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia

>From: "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: <novaroma@-------->
>Subject: [novaroma] A new member of gens Vedia
>Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:58:46 -0400
>
>Salvete
>
>It is with boundless pleasure that I would like to welcome Vedia Juliana
>(aka Samantha Morgan Bloch) to gens Vedia. She was born last night at 10:22
>eastern time via caesarian section, weighing 9 pounds 3 ounces and
>measuring
>20 inches in length. She and her mother, Priscilla Vedia, are resting
>comfortably in the hospital (due to be released Saturday), and her father
>(yours truly) is bouncing off the walls with joy and pride. :-)
>
>Next year in the Forum!
>
>Valete,
>
>Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
>Consul
>
>email: germanicus@--------
>AIM: Flavius Vedius
>ICQ: 106199729
>www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A new member of gens Vedia
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 19:58:23 EDT

Wonderful News Germanicus!

Good to hear everything went well and that there is a new Rowoman among us!

Tonight my wife and I will drink a toast!

Nerva

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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