Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] HELVETIA annexa Germaniae 2
From:	"Prometheus" <fresco@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:09:09 +0300

Marcus Prometheus omnibus civibus SPD

I am the one who wrote for freedom of choice.

This is the text of the debate in the SENATE of NOVA ROMA
by which the annexion was voted.

NO LEGAL PROVISION WAS MADE FOR FREEDOM OF CHOICE.

As you can read here under, just one of the senators expressed his "HOPES"
in the same sense I proposed then (and which are contained in my post sent
again now to the list under the title of HELVETIA annexa Germaniae 1
Bene Valete.
Marcus Prometheus Decius Golia

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

Results of Voting on the November Senate Agenda
Proxies for A. Gryllus Graecus and M. Iunius were cast by L. Cornelius
Sulla
Proxies for M. Iucundia Flavia were cast by Q. Fabius Maximus
[..........]
Item the Fourth.
Incorporation of Switzerland into Province Germania.
Shall we do this?
L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. * If there is later any objection from Italian,
French or Romany Swiss, we can adjust borders and/or name at that time.
I assume it will be considered the Regio of Helvitia.
M. Cassius Julianus: YES.
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas, though I wish we had been able to hear from
more actual
Helvetian Citizens before making this choice.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: ABSTINEO.
M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, I don't see the combination as a problem.
N. Moravius Vado: ABSTINEO/NO VOTE/ABSTAIN Although no French- or
Italian-speaking citizens have objected (I admit I do not know whether
there are any to object), there may be objections in future. Also, as
there is no one in this House to speak for the particular interests of
the cives of Gallia or Italia, I feel unable to support this motion. And
could we give the regio a more Roman name, like Helvetia, please?
Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas This will set the record straight.
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS Though what about all the French speaking
citizens? When I was there I thought they made up a third of the
population. Do they really want to be part of Germania?
M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. Yes, but if a French or
Italian-speaking citizen of Helvetica prefers to be considered part of
Gallia or Italia, I hope the censors would allow that.
YES 16; NO O; AB 2;
ITEM 4 PASSES

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Subject:	[novaroma] HELVETIA annexa Germaniae 1
From:	"Prometheus" <fresco@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:10:50 +0300

I am the one who wrote for freedom of choice.
Here under is my original message.
YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

----- Original Message -----
From: <LSergAust@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, 28 November, 2000 3:02 AM
Subject: [novaroma] November Senate session & agenda announced

> Salvete quirites!
> The Consules have called the Senate into session to consider the
> following matters: > (I quote)
> >Item the Fourth.
> >Incorporation of Switzerland into Province Germania.

Marcus Prometheus omnibus civibus SPD

I appeal to the senators and magistrates to avoid annexing the entire
territories of multinational states (like Switzerland) to a single
bordering province.

This is not historically correct and is not respectful of prospect CIVES
and is not liberal at all.

Prospect Swiss cives from the French speaking part (the western third of
Switzerland) or from the smaller Italian speaking part (canton Ticino) most
probably would prefer to be "annexed" to the bordering province of their
language, Gallia or Italia.

BUT also in these cases considering that we are a VIRTUAL STATE, and not a
state controlling a real territory, we can afford very easily to be even
more liberal and to respect EACH single citizen preference.

This can be made easily and without any problem:
Let's us suppose a the citizen doesn't reside any more in his original
canton
and lives in a canton of another language:
For instance a Swiss citizen born in Geneva from a French speaking family,
let's say monsieur Dupont de Geneva resides now in Basel, a German speaking
canton.
Perhaps he joined originally Provincial Gallia but he also might be
permitted (and without problem) to join later Provincia Germania if and
when he hears that in nearby Baden Wuttenberg or in Bavaria there is more
Nova Roman activity.

In conclusion, I propose:

1) More correct theoretical attribution of territories along linguistic
cultural lines

2) To lessen the importance of borders:
The above attribution of territories MIGHT be done most reasonably and
carefully as possible, BUT also (to avoid dramatizing), it might absolutely
be only an indication and not a constraint for prospect cives which might be
free to join the Province of their preference, without being
bureaucratically constrained to anything against their likes.

3) If the two above are not possible, I would even suggest do not to
attribute any multinational state to any neighbor but to leave single
citizens free to join the Nova Roman Province of their choice.

I conclude affirming that cultural allegiances pass mostly through the
hearts and minds of people and do not follow very much borders traced on
the ground, and much less follow borders traced or copied from casual
realities, especially in the virtual World.

Vivat Libertas.

Valete
Marcus Prometheus
Italian and Novo Roman writing from Dacia Romana.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Perfect World
From:	britil@--------
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:27:41 -0000

--- Salvete Lucius Mauricius Procopious et omnes,

Hail sir Hail. This is what I have been trying to say in my posts. I
agree we must become financially solvent for the sake of our future
and whatever future ventures we might wish to pursue. I also agree we
need to examine in detail just what part of the ancient practices we
wish to incorporate into Nova Roma to gain these funds. True we are a
brand new society and there are many avenues we can travel to reach
our goals, but will these avenues uphold the virtues we hold dear? I
wish to be one of the first to say if the call goes out for people to
be on one of these committees I proudly raise my hand to help.
Marcus Flavius
In the service of Roma

In novaroma@--------, "Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@h...>
wrote:
> Salvete Gaia Natalina et omnes,
>
> Warning: Long Post
> you may wish to save this for spare time or delete if
uninterested.The short
> version is this: I suggest the formation of committees that would
research
> ancient practices in subjects like financial practices, education,
health
> care, civil rights, et cetera. These committees would form
suggestions as to
> how we can adapt ancient practices to Nova Roma in the present
while trying
> to honor the spirit of our cives drive for a "perfect world" .
>
> I think the comments you made about seeking a perfect world merit
further
> discussion:
>
> "We may not live in a perfect world,
> > but (if) we are working at building toward that goal
> > (that of a perfect world)"
>
> {The () on "if" was added by me.}
> In order to avoid some of the extreme emotions some issues raise I
would
> like to consider our "perfect world" in the area of finances rather
than
> other areas.
> My question is this, what do we think is a perfect world? I think
we all
> agree it should be Roman. At least for us. But what about the rest?
> Obviously, there is some disagreement about what is and is not a
civil right
> so let's leave that alone. (By the way I may have access to a
mediator if
> anyone thinks that would help the yelling on this list.) What about
> financial practices and institutions? Now that we have currency and
are
> talking about taxes would be a good time to begin this discussion.
As I read
> the recent wonderful post about municipal officers, I noticed one
officials
> job was to ensure grain and other foodstuffs were in supply to feed
the
> cives. Who paid for that food? Was it the government. Will we use
a similar
> system? I'm not suggesting the Government feed and care for us. I'm
pointing
> out we need to start talking about how we adapt past practices to
the
> present.
> As much as I would like to advocate a system that ensures wealth
for all, I
> don't think that would be in our best interest. Will Durrant in "Our
> Oriental Heritage" says something like; "When a civilization is
forming it
> tends toward communism as an equal sharing of resources ensures the
survival
> of the group. When extra resources are obtainable, some individuals
will
> seek more than they need while the majority will be happy with
their lot and
> the civilization transforms to capitalism or dissolves."
> In my opinion capitalism may be a dead end street as well. It seems
to be a
> financial form of military conquest. Once you have the world where
do you
> go? According to Chaos theory (I'm paraphrasing this from another
list I'm
> on) Institutions that attempt to maintain the status quo are doomed
to be
> torn apart by inside and outside forces.
> It sounds to me we are destined to be competitive beings. How can
we utilize
> the practices of our forefathers to ensure we have a financial
system that
> allows enough competition and room for growth that it survives and
yet fits
> our hopes for a perfect world?
> These questions could easily be altered to address health care,
public
> works, et cetera.
> As a corporation we have the opportunity to meet many of these
needs once we
> have the resources. We don't have to wait for sovereign territory,
but we
> will need to grow and gain financial strength. In time we could
offer health
> insurance, banking (I've heard it's relatively easy to start a
credit union,
> but that might be relative to finding the fountain of youth :) )
education
> (Some of which is already occurring) et cetera. How can we adapt
ancient
> Roman practices in those areas to Nova Roma? Would it be wise to
form
> committees to examine some of these issues to research practices in
antiqua
> and offer suggestions as to how this can be adapted in the present.
We might
> have to find volunteers for the civil rights committee at sword
point unless
> some of you like to brawl. :) Hopefully the other committees will
find much
> concordia if formed. In closing I would like to stress the
importance of
> these Committees looking very hard at our perceptions of a perfect
world.
> Like the idea of sharing wealth equally, many ideas of perfection
simply
> don't work. Some ideas held by our ancestors may seem cruel or
unfair but in
> reality they built the greatest empire known to man.
>
> Lucius Mauricius Procopious
> Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
> (This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> procopious@--------
> ICQ# 83516618
> *America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
> http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
> * The Gens Mauricia
> http://www.geocities.com/procopious
>
> "Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that
the
> affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing
the reason
> for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause
is easy
> to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every
mortal will
> decide for himself according to his taste."
> -Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died
c.560s]
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gaia Natalina Casca" <gaianatalinacasca@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 11:29 AM
> Subject: [novaroma] Taxes & Other Matters
>
>
> > Greetings all...I'm still trying to catch my breath
> > and catch up on all the "goings-on", but I thought I
> > should comment when and where I feel lead to.
> >
> > Please forgive if I jump into an issue that has been
> > discussed to death, or re-visit ideas that have
> > already been brought up, as I've only been able to
> > partake of the list's mailings for the last few days,
> > and may have missed something...
> >
> > On the idea of taxes...When I first joined Nova Roma
> > in July of last year, I was rather surprised that
> > there were no membership fees or taxes. It seems to
> > me that this is a fairly logical idea, provided that
> > it could be handled fairly and with an eye to
> > inclusion rather than exclusion. Having joined while
> > in a relatively inferior financial position than the
> > one I enjoy today, I would have been unable to join
> > had there been any sizeable fee to do so. I would be
> > against any measure that would leavy a burdeon at
> > application for citizenship.
> >
> > That said however, I would certainly support the idea
> > of supporting our nation in some other fashion,
> > perhaps in the way of a yearly (or whatever other
> > increment that is seen as fitting) tax based upon
> > duration of citizenship (thereby those with the most
> > committment to the group are supporting it
> > financially, while those with only cursory interest
> > are allowed to remain interested without having to
> > invest money they might not have).
> >
> > On the issue of gender, names and sexuality (as
> > implied by the issue at hand)...it would seem to me
> > that we, as a micronation striving to live up to the
> > best of Roman life and divorce ourselves from the
> > practices that were less than in keeping with the
> > ideals of that same society, we should indeed embrace
> > those whose lives have led them to express themselves
> > in ways that differ with their biological identity.
> > The recognition of a person by the gender identity
> > which best suits them seems to be the only way to go.
> >
> >
> > In a perfect world, we are who we are and our
> > government, families and friends accept it
> > unquestioningly. stumbling
> > blocks out of the way from the get-go, rather than
> > dragging them with us for miles before we realize
> > we've fettered ourselves with them?
> >
> > Lastly, to those whose Gens has been increased through
> > birth or adoption, and those who have been appointed,
> > elected or are taking vacation (which I wish I could
> > be doing!) congratulations!
> >
> > Happy Friday all...(sorry for the long post)
> >
> >
> > =====
> > Gaia Natalina Casca
> > Fremont, California
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
> > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] HELVETIA annexa Germaniae 1
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:19:53 -0400

Salvete

Personally, I don't see any reason not to create a Provincia Helvetia. With
13 cives, it's certainly large enough (Thule provincia has 13 cives, for
example). I think the proposal to divide modern Switzerland between Gaul,
Germania, and Italia is doable as well, but might place a bit of a strain on
the Censors; but hey, if they were given a list of which cantons belonged to
which provincia, it could be workable. Comment from the Censors?

In regards to the idea that individual cives should be allowed to choose
their own provincia depending on their personal preferance I say "nonsense".
Provinces are geographic entities. When you change your address, your
province changes. Simple as that. They are intended as administrative
entities; a tool to allow our cives to get together. That has been their
purpose since Nova Roma's inception. If we set the precident that people in
Switzerland could pick and choose their provincia, we'd soon end up with
people living in Germany who were "officially" in Boreoccidentalis, or
people physically in Britannia who were "officially" in Australia. Chaos.
One's provincia is simply a function of where one physically lives; it is
not a statement of nationalistic pride; or at least it shouldn't be. What
should matter is that one is a Nova Roman, not a Germanian as opposed to a
Gaulian.

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] HELVETIA annexa Germaniae 1
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:31:55 -0700

Ave,

As one half of the Censors I will comment below:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 6:19 PM
Subject: RE: [novaroma] HELVETIA annexa Germaniae 1

> Salvete
>
> Personally, I don't see any reason not to create a Provincia Helvetia.
With
> 13 cives, it's certainly large enough (Thule provincia has 13 cives, for
> example). I think the proposal to divide modern Switzerland between Gaul,
> Germania, and Italia is doable as well, but might place a bit of a strain
on
> the Censors; but hey, if they were given a list of which cantons belonged
to
> which provincia, it could be workable. Comment from the Censors?

Sulla: Please go easy on the Censors!!! If we create a province of
Helvetia, COOL. I would vote for it as Censor and a Senator. But, lets not
divide it further into zones of influence. That will get too involved and
quite frankly, my knowledge of the Cantons of Switzerland are just not that
extensive. We, the Censors have a difficult enough task just doing our
regular duites. Most provinces in Nova Roma are fashioned on current
political lines, please let us not deviate too much from that practice, for
when perspective citizens apply and they list an address where I dont
understand, it takes extra time and effort for me to properly allocate that
citizen to the correct province.

> In regards to the idea that individual cives should be allowed to choose
> their own provincia depending on their personal preferance I say
"nonsense".
> Provinces are geographic entities. When you change your address, your
> province changes. Simple as that. They are intended as administrative
> entities; a tool to allow our cives to get together. That has been their
> purpose since Nova Roma's inception. If we set the precident that people
in
> Switzerland could pick and choose their provincia, we'd soon end up with
> people living in Germany who were "officially" in Boreoccidentalis, or
> people physically in Britannia who were "officially" in Australia. Chaos.
> One's provincia is simply a function of where one physically lives; it is
> not a statement of nationalistic pride; or at least it shouldn't be. What
> should matter is that one is a Nova Roman, not a Germanian as opposed to a
> Gaulian.

Sulla: I agree completely in this!

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

> Next year in the Forum!
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
> email: germanicus@--------
> AIM: Flavius Vedius
> ICQ: 106199729
> www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Greetings, from a Psuedo-Newcomer
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:48:23 -0700

Salve Gaia Natalina Casca!

We're glad to have you 'back' as it were! Whatever your previous
circumstances, it is fortuitous that you have gone active.
I'm a a refugee from the Bay area myself recently (we moved
back to the Seattle area in March of 2000 after a 2.5 year stint
in San Jose for job reasons.) The bay area is a wonderful
place in many regards, but it's a tough place to make it; especially
if one is used to a quieter atmosphere or one that is not as
outlandishly expensive. (No offence intended to my bay area
brethren; it really is a great place in many ways, and I go
back there often.)

Your interests sound to be many and varied and as you know, there are plenty
of outlets for these interests here. Perhaps you might want to consider
subscribing to the philosophy and religious lists as a start? We can always
use additional perspectives.

Take care and again -welcome!

Bene vale,
Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: blackuni@-------- [mailto:blackuni@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 2:35 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Greetings, from a Psuedo-Newcomer

<snipped>

I am now safely settled in my own home in the sunny Silicon Valley,
after leaving the El Paso desert, with a new job that requires far
less of my time and many more perks, and am able to once again turn
my attention to pursuits of pleasure.

<snipped>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Cerealis Festival Submissions
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:52:15 -0700

Salvete Quiritibus;

Just a quick general note to thank all the respondents that
have taken the time to share their artistic creations with us.
Many of these are excellent indeed!

Normally, I would reply individually to each and every one, but
as an official in the Sodalitas Musarum, I must refrain from doing
so until the contest has officially ended and the votes have
been cast. Suffice it to say for now though that I'm avidly reading
each and every one of them and am enjoying them immensely!
Keep the submissions coming!

Bene valete,
Oppius -Retarius, Sodalitas Musarum

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] HELVETIA annexa Germaniae 1
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:58:20 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix [mailto:alexious@--------]
> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 9:32 PM
>
> But, lets not
> divide it further into zones of influence. That will get too involved and
> quite frankly, my knowledge of the Cantons of Switzerland are just not
that
> extensive.

Is one's canton included in one's mailing address? If so, it would seem a
simple matter to just pluck it out from the Citizenship application and
compare it against a list. Much like the current situation in the United
States...

> We, the Censors have a difficult enough task just doing our
> regular duites. Most provinces in Nova Roma are fashioned on current
> political lines, please let us not deviate too much from that practice,
for
> when perspective citizens apply and they list an address where I dont
> understand, it takes extra time and effort for me to properly allocate
that
> citizen to the correct province.

If I may, the situation in Switzerland could be seen as being quite similar
to that in the United States. After all, we don't have a single Provincia
America. But, if the Censors would feel overburdened by having to look up
which Swiss canton belongs to which province for 1.5% of our cives (13 out
of 849 thusfar) then I might not be opposed to establishing a separate
provincia. On the other hand, I am not sure I like the idea of setting up a
new province every time a dozen-plus cives feels they are being
mis-represented. After all, provincia are only an administrative tool...

Any thoughts? I would especially like to hear from anyone else who might
actually live in Switzerland...

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Taxes and Audits
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:14:10 -0400

Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: lsicinius@-------- [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 5:54 AM
>
> I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to know what New
> Hampshire's laws require of a NPC regarding reports to members. I
> realize that Nova Roma can pass leges on this matter, but since Nova
> Roman law is limited to banishment a criminal magistrate will care
> little after (s)he milks the treasury. New Hampshire law on the other
> hand may subject him/her to imprisonment which has a greater deterance
> value.

If I may, Nova Roma's Constitution and laws are currently regarded as Nova
Roma Incorporated's corporate bylaws. They thus have legal standing in the
United States and are enforceable under U.S. law.

In any event, even if we do not have laws on the books specifically
outlawing misappropriation of funds, anyone guilty of doing so would be
guilty of at least embezzlement under United States law and would thus be
prosecutable.

Indeed, this would apply to any officer of Nova Roma, including provincial
governors who handle provincial treasuries (which really should be done by
quaestores; one reason that we really need to be considering formally
bonding our quaestors, both elected and appointed).

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes & Other Matters
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 04:54:39 +0200 (CEST)

Salvete, romani qurites; et salve, Gaia Natalina Casca.

--- Gaia Natalina Casca <gaianatalinacasca@--------> escribi�: >
Greetings all...I'm still trying to catch my breath
> and catch up on all the "goings-on", but I thought I
> should comment when and where I feel lead to.
>
> Please forgive if I jump into an issue that has been
> discussed to death, or re-visit ideas that have
> already been brought up, as I've only been able to
> partake of the list's mailings for the last few days,
> and may have missed something...
>

You are forgiven, as last as I can go...

> On the idea of taxes...When I first joined Nova Roma
> in July of last year, I was rather surprised that
> there were no membership fees or taxes. It seems to
> me that this is a fairly logical idea, provided that
> it could be handled fairly and with an eye to
> inclusion rather than exclusion. Having joined while
> in a relatively inferior financial position than the
> one I enjoy today, I would have been unable to join
> had there been any sizeable fee to do so. I would be
> against any measure that would leavy a burdeon at
> application for citizenship.
>

What a wonderful way to express what I feel! Thank you.

> That said however, I would certainly support the idea
> of supporting our nation in some other fashion,
> perhaps in the way of a yearly (or whatever other
> increment that is seen as fitting) tax based upon
> duration of citizenship (thereby those with the most
> committment to the group are supporting it
> financially, while those with only cursory interest
> are allowed to remain interested without having to
> invest money they might not have).
>

Once again, I agree with you. Thank you for your opinion. I'll repeat
it just once more. I am in favour of taxes, but I am not in favour of
excluding those who can't (or won't) pay them. I think it would be an
impediment for those willing to join us.

Thank you for bringing this important issue back.

> On the issue of gender, names and sexuality (as
> implied by the issue at hand)...it would seem to me
> that we, as a micronation striving to live up to the
> best of Roman life and divorce ourselves from the
> practices that were less than in keeping with the
> ideals of that same society, we should indeed embrace
> those whose lives have led them to express themselves
> in ways that differ with their biological identity.
> The recognition of a person by the gender identity
> which best suits them seems to be the only way to go.
>

I just can't agree more with you. Are you single, or what? (Just my
little joke ;-) ).

>
> In a perfect world, we are who we are and our
> government, families and friends accept it
> unquestioningly. We may not live in a perfect world,
> but if we are working at building toward that goal
> (that of a perfect world), why not pull the stumbling
> blocks out of the way from the get-go, rather than
> dragging them with us for miles before we realize
> we've fettered ourselves with them?
>
> Lastly, to those whose Gens has been increased through
> birth or adoption, and those who have been appointed,
> elected or are taking vacation (which I wish I could
> be doing!) congratulations!
>
> Happy Friday all...(sorry for the long post)
>
>
> =====
> Gaia Natalina Casca
> Fremont, California
>

Congratulations to you! Thank you for sharing your thoghts with us.

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Protocivis romanus.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Alternative to Name-change Edict--Reply to Sulla
From:	Marius the Wanderer <peregrinus@-------->
Date:	Date header was inserted by mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net

Salve, Censor Sulla, et salvete omnes...

In response to this suggestion...
>> My 2 denarii: what if we put both the original AND the reworked
>> version by Marius up for a vote? That would be honest, no?

...Sulla scripsit:
> The Censors disagree, The current name change edict is a law as long
> as the authoring Censor remains in office. Not only that but it
> was written by C. Marius Merullus and L. Cornelius Sulla. For those
> who do not know, C. Marius is Lucia Maria's OWN Paterfamilias. If
> this name change edict satisfied his requirements to the extent that
> he defended it last year. And the fact that he co-authored the name
> change edict. I think that this should be the sole edict up for
> promulgation. (Now if anyone doubts the fact that the Paterfamilias
> spoke up in defense of the current edict, please feel free to go back
> into the archieves and check for yourself.)

Of course my Pater co-authored the Edict; of course he spoke up for it:
it was a vast improvement over the last edict you wrote on the subject
by yourself. I, too, was quite impressed with the revised version, and
had it come up for a Comitia vote last summer I would even have voted
for it.

Unfortunately, what looked so good on paper ended up developing a few
glitches in practice. Problems emerged, not in the law itself, but in
certain Magistrates' interpretations of its transgender provisions; you
in particular, Censor Sulla, have demonstrated a tendency to apply
said provisions in all the most cumbersome ways possible. For the
provisions themselves, you want me to spend time and money getting my
official, listed name *and* gender changed*, a thing I'd never pursued
before because I've been living my daily life as Marius for years, no
one in RL has a problem with it, and therefore the legal stuff was
never really thought necessary. For the medical exemption, you wanted
to see the entire few inches' thickness of my military and veteran's
medical records, most of which are none of your 'forsaken business and
have nothing to do with my gender situation anyhow.

* Name change (Tarrant County, TX): small filing fee, two sworn
statements, and an appearance in court; ETIC: 3-4 months, most of which
will consist of obtaining a court date
Gender change (same place): nearly impossible to get down here; this
is one of those instances where Texas is more 'South' than 'West'. For
the last person I know that got one, it took a couple of years and
required the assistance of an attorney. Yet you, Censor, say that
documentation of a legal name-change is invalid if that same document
also lists me as female. See what I mean...?

Your statement above seems to imply (gods, I hope I'm wrong) that I am
somehow 'bucking' my Paterfamilias. I am not. He saw my alternative
version several months ago. Had he not gone into inactive mode after a
(very frustrating, I hear) season as your colleague, it is quite likely
that he would have been presenting my alternative and not me.

But I am not surprised that you do not wish to see the alternative put
up for a vote. Your entire career as Censor has been a vivid
illustration of the art of denying people a choice. You squelched
opposition from the get-go by deciding controversial matters via edicta
in the first place; you did everything in your power last year to keep
this matter from going to Comitia; and now that it *is* being proposed
for a Comitia vote, you only want the People to have the one
version--your version--to decide on in a straight thumbs-up or
thumbs-down vote.

There's nothing wrong with most of the Edictum de Mutandis Nominibus.
The section that's causing all the trouble is the only one proposed for
amendment. The People should not have to kill the whole lex just
because one section needs a lot of work. My amendment is one way of
being able to keep the baby while dumping the bathwater. And if the
People vote for your version over mine--Hey! At least we'll all know
they had the choice.

(And what'd I tell you about that 'Lucia Maria' business, eh?)

In fides,
***********************************************************
Lucius Marius Peregrinus <peregrinus@-------->
Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, |>[SPQR]<|
Historical Re-Creationist |\=/|
and Citizen of Rome ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
"Is Rome worth one good man's life? ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
We believed it once. | | / )\ \| /
Make us believe it again." _|_| / _/_| /`(
-- Lucilla, _Gladiator_ /./..=' /./..'

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes & Other Matters
From:	Gaia Natalina Casca <gaianatalinacasca@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 20:36:27 -0700 (PDT)

> You are forgiven, as last as I can go...

Well, thank you!

> What a wonderful way to express what I feel! Thank
> you.

Nice to know that I'm not alone.

> Once again, I agree with you. Thank you for your
> opinion. I'll repeat
> it just once more. I am in favour of taxes, but I am
> not in favour of
> excluding those who can't (or won't) pay them. I
> think it would be an
> impediment for those willing to join us.
>
> Thank you for bringing this important issue back.

I have the feeling that this is an issue that will
have much discussion over the next few weeks.

> I just can't agree more with you. Are you single, or
> what? (Just my
> little joke ;-) ).

Thank you...and yes...and joke away...I'm always up
for a laugh!

> Congratulations to you! Thank you for sharing your
> thoghts with us.

Be carefull what you encourage...it may develop into a habit...

=====
Gaia Natalina Casca
Fremont, California

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Perfect World
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 05:38:12 +0200 (CEST)

Salvete omnes.

--- Lucius Mauricius Procopious <procopious@--------> escribi�: >
Salvete Gaia Natalina et omnes,
>
> Warning: Long Post

Thank you for the warning. It didn't avoid anyone reading it, thogh
:-).

> you may wish to save this for spare time or delete if
> uninterested.The short
> version is this: I suggest the formation of committees that would
> research
> ancient practices in subjects like financial practices, education,
> health
> care, civil rights, et cetera. These committees would form
> suggestions as to
> how we can adapt ancient practices to Nova Roma in the present while
> trying
> to honor the spirit of our cives drive for a "perfect world" .
>

I'd like to present myself as a volunteer for any such commitee, if I
may.

> I think the comments you made about seeking a perfect world merit
> further
> discussion:
>
> "We may not live in a perfect world,
> > but (if) we are working at building toward that goal
> > (that of a perfect world)"
>
> {The () on "if" was added by me.}
> In order to avoid some of the extreme emotions some issues raise I
> would
> like to consider our "perfect world" in the area of finances rather
> than
> other areas.
> My question is this, what do we think is a perfect world? I think we
> all
> agree it should be Roman. At least for us. But what about the rest?
> Obviously, there is some disagreement about what is and is not a
> civil right
> so let's leave that alone. (By the way I may have access to a
> mediator if
> anyone thinks that would help the yelling on this list.) What about
> financial practices and institutions? Now that we have currency and
> are
> talking about taxes would be a good time to begin this discussion. As
> I read
> the recent wonderful post about municipal officers, I noticed one
> officials
> job was to ensure grain and other foodstuffs were in supply to feed
> the
> cives. Who paid for that food? Was it the government. Will we use a
> similar
> system? I'm not suggesting the Government feed and care for us. I'm
> pointing
> out we need to start talking about how we adapt past practices to the
> present.
> As much as I would like to advocate a system that ensures wealth for
> all, I
> don't think that would be in our best interest. Will Durrant in "Our
> Oriental Heritage" says something like; "When a civilization is
> forming it
> tends toward communism as an equal sharing of resources ensures the
> survival
> of the group. When extra resources are obtainable, some individuals
> will
> seek more than they need while the majority will be happy with their
> lot and
> the civilization transforms to capitalism or dissolves."
> In my opinion capitalism may be a dead end street as well. It seems
> to be a
> financial form of military conquest. Once you have the world where do
> you
> go? According to Chaos theory (I'm paraphrasing this from another
> list I'm
> on) Institutions that attempt to maintain the status quo are doomed
> to be
> torn apart by inside and outside forces.

Thank you again.

> It sounds to me we are destined to be competitive beings. How can we
> utilize
> the practices of our forefathers to ensure we have a financial system
> that
> allows enough competition and room for growth that it survives and
> yet fits
> our hopes for a perfect world?
> These questions could easily be altered to address health care,
> public
> works, et cetera.
> As a corporation we have the opportunity to meet many of these needs
> once we
> have the resources. We don't have to wait for sovereign territory,
> but we
> will need to grow and gain financial strength. In time we could offer
> health
> insurance, banking (I've heard it's relatively easy to start a credit
> union,
> but that might be relative to finding the fountain of youth :) )
> education
> (Some of which is already occurring) et cetera. How can we adapt
> ancient
> Roman practices in those areas to Nova Roma? Would it be wise to form
> committees to examine some of these issues to research practices in
> antiqua
> and offer suggestions as to how this can be adapted in the present.
> We might
> have to find volunteers for the civil rights committee at sword point
> unless
> some of you like to brawl.

I present myself as volunteer again, though I can brawl anyone! I'm
pretty fit, you know? ;-).

> :) Hopefully the other committees will
> find much
> concordia if formed. In closing I would like to stress the importance
> of
> these Committees looking very hard at our perceptions of a perfect
> world.
> Like the idea of sharing wealth equally, many ideas of perfection
> simply
> don't work. Some ideas held by our ancestors may seem cruel or unfair
> but in
> reality they built the greatest empire known to man.
>
> Lucius Mauricius Procopious
> Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
>

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Protocivis romanus.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Perfect World
From:	Gaia Natalina Casca <gaianatalinacasca@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:12:43 -0700 (PDT)

Salve

> Warning: Long Post

Something I should have done, rather than apologize at
the end...

> you may wish to save this for spare time or delete
> if uninterested.The short
> version is this: I suggest the formation of
> committees that would research
> ancient practices in subjects like financial
> practices, education, health
> care, civil rights, et cetera. These committees
> would form suggestions as to
> how we can adapt ancient practices to Nova Roma in
> the present while trying
> to honor the spirit of our cives drive for a
> "perfect world" .
>
I think this is an excellent idea and I would like to
volunteer to serve on one of these committees.

> I think the comments you made about seeking a
> perfect world merit further
> discussion:

I would certainly agree with that...

> {The () on "if" was added by me.}
> In order to avoid some of the extreme emotions some
> issues raise I would
> like to consider our "perfect world" in the area of
> finances rather than
> other areas.

That would seem a safe enough place to begin...

> How can we utilize
> the practices of our forefathers to ensure we have a
> financial system that
> allows enough competition and room for growth that
> it survives and yet fits
> our hopes for a perfect world?
> These questions could easily be altered to address
> health care, public
> works, et cetera.

Interesting questions...and I see a long,
argumentative road ahead as we delve into them.
> We might
> have to find volunteers for the civil rights
> committee at sword point unless
> some of you like to brawl. :)

I for one would volunteer for this committee...and
I've been known to hold my own in verbal free for
alls!

Thank you for taking my briefly explored ideas and
giving them some substance...and for offering some
suggestions that have sincere merrit as we go forward.

=====
Gaia Natalina Casca
Fremont, California

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Patron/Client -One client's real view...
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:02:33 -0700

Salvete Quiritibus;

I just wanted to add a quick, yet hearty 'me too' to this post.
Though none of us would want to run the risk of endangering
the terms of the Lex Cornelia de Privatus; those that do wish
to engage in voice communication would benefit from low or
no-cost tools to further propagate the effort.

Bene valete,
Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: Lucius Mauricius Procopious [mailto:procopious@--------]
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 9:51 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Patron/Client -One client's real view...

Salvete Omnes,
In relation to the comments Oppius made about the telephone I agree
wholeheartedly. Voice communication is an invaluable tool. Is there any way
we could add a voice chat room to the web site, or offer a download or link
to a download of a free internet phone program? For instance, I use
Net2phone to talk to relatives in another state.

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason
for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 1:17 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Patron/Client -One client's real view...

> Salvete Quiritibus;
>
> After reasoned requests by Consul Germanice et
> Pompeia Cornelia -and after much consideration;
> it seemed that it might be beneficial to actually
> share the experiences of real-life client -me.
> Consul Germanice was quite right in stating that
> client/patron relationships should be out in
> the open and looked on proudly by those involved
> in same.
>
> So Quirites, I stand before you and declare that
> I am in fact a client of Censor Lucius Cornelius
> Sulla Felix. So, before the attacks fly, I only
> ask that you read what is said here, judge for
> yourself and then do as you will. Since we all
> more or less know each other's general feelings
> on clientage in general -both pro and con, I can
> only offer a description of my own such relationship.
>
> Like many newbies, I came to Nova Roma full of
> grandiose ideas, notions of what to see and do,
> how to participate and so forth. As I started to
> learn more about Nova Roma, many questions arose.
> (And I mean -MANY -in my case, at the time
> I was seemingly having more questions than
> answers.)
>
> One of the things I did early on, was download
> the AIM client and try chatting with various
> citizens to get a better feel for daily life here.
> Knowing that deep down somewhere -there had to
> be much more to Nova Roman life than what the
> main list was offering.
>
> One of the citizens with whom I started talking
> most frequently was Sulla. This was largely
> due to my travel schedule, the weird hours that
> we both seemed to keep (and consequently both
> be on chat at the same time) and some common
> interests in Roman law and various other topics.
> We found a natural rapport which extended naturally
> into macronational issues and other topics.
>
> Well, after my continual grilling of Sulla over
> a period of many weeks on all manner of legal
> and Censorial topics, we decided that it might
> in fact be beneficial to try a semi-traditional
> patron/client relationship. We began discussing
> the idea. It was not something pushed or forced
> on either side. VERY long and detailed discussions
> ensued, via e-mail, AIM and on good old telephone
> (a marvelous tool Quirites and one that has resolved
> more than one misunderstanding between myself and
> my fellow citizens. I highly recommend it.)
>
> The result of these discussions was the formation
> of a general patron/client agreement.
>
> The physical terms of our agreement were actually
> quite simple in the end. Sulla would provide
> guidance and suggestions on the legal side and help
> provide some of the tools necessary for me to
> climb the Cursus should I choose to do so. Additionally
> we would act as mutual sounding boards for all
> manner of ideas regarding Nova Roman law, daily
> life and activities.
>
> In return, I would assist him with projects such
> as the Censor handbook and provide input and support
> on those issues on which we mutually agreed. In
> essence, our agreement ended up being sort of a
> 'scriba +' position. By the time we had actually
> gotten to this point though, a friendship had ensued
> and this became a component of the relationship
> as well.
>
> For myself, I can only say that the experience
> gained and the satisfaction in the reciprocation
> of a patron/client relationship has been rewarding
> in my case. I've been able to learn from one of
> Nova Roma's longest-standing citizens and someone
> who has always been accessible to the cives and has
> worked tirelessly on our behalf. -No, I'm not
> going to eulogize; but keep in mind fellow cives
> that Sulla is someone who works *many* hours
> each and every day on behalf of the Respublica.
> He is not just someone who pops his head out
> of a proverbial gopher hole every few weeks to
> fire a few barbs on the main list, nor is he
> someone who just sits around complaining about
> things and doing no real work. We could
> all learn a thing or two from his tireless
> work ethic.
>
> To summarize: yes, I absolutely support the
> tradition of patron/client relationships. In my
> particular case, it has been very beneficial.
> No -such relationships should not be legislated
> or forced on anyone -and such relationships of
> course are not for everyone. It is very much
> a mutual choice for all parties involved.
>
> My hope is that this post has perhaps clarified
> things somewhat. Please feel free to ask questions!
>
> Bene valete,
> Oppius Flaccus Severus, Legatus America Boreoccidentalis
> Sacerdos Neptunus, Retarius et Scriba
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Nova Roma Coins ARE IN!
From:	exitil@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 01:16:36 EDT

how much did it cost to make these?

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Subject:	[novaroma] Exultans sum!
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 07:23:31 +0200 (CEST)

Ave, romani quirites.

It's 7:23 a.m. I should be sleeping. But I just can't wait to announce
to all of you that...

I'M FINALLY A CITIZEN.

I'd like to thank censor L. Cornelius Sulla Felix both for his deep
understanding and his helpful advices.
And I'd like to thank all of you Novoromans (yes, even you, Draco)
for making this nation/country/urbis a second home for me.

EXULTANS SUM!

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Coins and Flag
From:	"J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 01:47:32 -0400

Salvete omnes!

Picked up some of Marcus Cassius' Nova Roma coins at
Mithracon, my, they are some *spiff*!!! Ring nicely on
the table when you plunk them down. Big golden bronze
ones with nice, simple Roman style design. We're gonna
enjoy using these!

Also picked up a Nova Roma flag; they're big enough for
smallish uses, will look good hung from a pavilion.
Gonna bring mine to Pennsic.....hehehe....

Many thanks, Cassius and Patricia Cassia, for getting
these done!
Valete,
S. Ambrosia Fulvia

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Exultans sum!
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:35:09 -0700

Congratulations Gnae Salix! Now, please -get some rest :-)

-Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur [mailto:salixastur@--------]
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 10:24 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Cc: NRHispania@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Exultans sum!

Ave, romani quirites.

It's 7:23 a.m. I should be sleeping. But I just can't wait to announce
to all of you that...

I'M FINALLY A CITIZEN.

I'd like to thank censor L. Cornelius Sulla Felix both for his deep
understanding and his helpful advices.
And I'd like to thank all of you Novoromans (yes, even you, Draco)
for making this nation/country/urbis a second home for me.

EXULTANS SUM!

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] CANADA OCCIDENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER TWELVE
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:38:32 -0700

Salve Gai Vipsani Agrippa!

Congratulations on your appointment as provincial cornicularius!
Am sure you will do well in your new post.

Bene vale,
Oppius Flaccus Severus, Legatus America Boreoccidentalis Major
-----Original Message-----
From: Quintus Sertorius [mailto:quintus-sertorius@--------]
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 6:59 AM
To: novaroma@--------; NR_CanOcc@--------
Subject: [novaroma] CANADA OCCIDENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER TWELVE

CANADA OCCIDENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER TWELVE

APPOINTMENT OF PROVINCIAL CORNICULARIUS (ADJUTANT)
6 Apr 2001

Salve All

I, Quintus Sertorius, Propraetor Canada Occidentalis, issue the following
Edicta to announce the appointment of Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa to the
position of Provoncial Cornicularis(adjutant) for Canada Occidentalis.

Vale

Quintus Sertorius

Tribune

Quaestor

Propraetor

Canada Occidentalis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Libertatis Festum
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 00:00:11 EDT

Salve Quintus Sertorius

On 4/13/01 11:06 AM Quintus Sertorius (quintus-sertorius@--------) wrote:

SNIPPED
>>I
>> do not believe that it was completely evil in Roma Antiqua or that it
>> *has* to be evil in every case here. But I know it to have been used
>> here in at least one or two cases as a condition proposed or implied
>> for the obtaining of a senate seat.
>
>QS;
>I would like to see where this was said, not that this is totally wrong.
>
Let me make certain I have our new Tribune's words right. You are saying
that for an individual citizen to promise or imply that he will award a
seat in the Senate as enticement for another citizen to enter his service
is somehow acceptable?

I sincerely hope you have misspoken here. I would hate to think that one
who was just elected to serve the people and the Constitution is stating
that public offices are commodities to be traded by individuals for their
private gain.

Please explain for us what you meant here.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Taxes and Audits
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 06:08:50 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...> wrote:
> Salvete
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: lsicinius@-------- [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 5:54 AM
> >
> > I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to know what New
> > Hampshire's laws require of a NPC regarding reports to members. I
> > realize that Nova Roma can pass leges on this matter, but since Nova
> > Roman law is limited to banishment a criminal magistrate will care
> > little after (s)he milks the treasury. New Hampshire law on the other
> > hand may subject him/her to imprisonment which has a greater deterance
> > value.
>
> If I may, Nova Roma's Constitution and laws are currently regarded
as Nova
> Roma Incorporated's corporate bylaws. They thus have legal standing
in the
> United States and are enforceable under U.S. law.
>
> In any event, even if we do not have laws on the books specifically
> outlawing misappropriation of funds, anyone guilty of doing so would be
> guilty of at least embezzlement under United States law and would
thus be
> prosecutable.
>
> Indeed, this would apply to any officer of Nova Roma, including
provincial
> governors who handle provincial treasuries (which really should be
done by
> quaestores; one reason that we really need to be considering formally
> bonding our quaestors, both elected and appointed).
>
> Next year in the Forum!
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>

Salvete,

Thank you Consul!
I'm asking these rather hard questions now because I want to make it
as easy as posible for Nova Roma to start collecting the taxes she
needs to continue to grow.

On the matter of reports. This is the information currentally avaible,

http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/index.html#Quaestors

We have NO reports listed for the third and fourth quarters of 2753,
and since we are two weeks into the second quarter of 2754 we should
also have a report for Q1 2754 due soon.

I was unable to find a lex concerning these finical reports.

There is a budget posted for 2753 but nothing for 2754, nor did I see
a budget for 2754 in the consulta listed in the Tabularium, despite
the requirement set forth in the constitution (V.B.1) that this be
made no later than the kalends of November.

If Nova Roma's officals wish to maintain the level of trust that will
be needed to collect taxes, these are matters that can NOT be ignored.
The Civies have the right to know how thier tax money will be spent.

Before Taxes are imposed I would sugest that a lex be passed
formalizing the reports. This should define exactaly which months
consist of a "Quarter", a deadline for making the report after the end
of the Quarter (I sugest 14 days) and a requirements on how these
reports should be submitted to the citizens.

I remind the Senate of it's duty to Prepare the budget for 2754, and
sugest that this be taken care of BEFORE taxes are imposed.

Valete,
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Taxes and Audits
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:12:37 -0700

Ave,

I believe this information would be ideal to be included in the Quaestor
Handbook.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: <lsicinius@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 11:08 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Taxes and Audits

> --- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...> wrote:
> > Salvete
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: lsicinius@-------- [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 5:54 AM
> > >
> > > I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to know what New
> > > Hampshire's laws require of a NPC regarding reports to members. I
> > > realize that Nova Roma can pass leges on this matter, but since Nova
> > > Roman law is limited to banishment a criminal magistrate will care
> > > little after (s)he milks the treasury. New Hampshire law on the other
> > > hand may subject him/her to imprisonment which has a greater deterance
> > > value.
> >
> > If I may, Nova Roma's Constitution and laws are currently regarded
> as Nova
> > Roma Incorporated's corporate bylaws. They thus have legal standing
> in the
> > United States and are enforceable under U.S. law.
> >
> > In any event, even if we do not have laws on the books specifically
> > outlawing misappropriation of funds, anyone guilty of doing so would be
> > guilty of at least embezzlement under United States law and would
> thus be
> > prosecutable.
> >
> > Indeed, this would apply to any officer of Nova Roma, including
> provincial
> > governors who handle provincial treasuries (which really should be
> done by
> > quaestores; one reason that we really need to be considering formally
> > bonding our quaestors, both elected and appointed).
> >
> > Next year in the Forum!
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> > Consul
> >
>
> Salvete,
>
> Thank you Consul!
> I'm asking these rather hard questions now because I want to make it
> as easy as posible for Nova Roma to start collecting the taxes she
> needs to continue to grow.
>
> On the matter of reports. This is the information currentally avaible,
>
> http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/index.html#Quaestors
>
> We have NO reports listed for the third and fourth quarters of 2753,
> and since we are two weeks into the second quarter of 2754 we should
> also have a report for Q1 2754 due soon.
>
> I was unable to find a lex concerning these finical reports.
>
> There is a budget posted for 2753 but nothing for 2754, nor did I see
> a budget for 2754 in the consulta listed in the Tabularium, despite
> the requirement set forth in the constitution (V.B.1) that this be
> made no later than the kalends of November.
>
> If Nova Roma's officals wish to maintain the level of trust that will
> be needed to collect taxes, these are matters that can NOT be ignored.
> The Civies have the right to know how thier tax money will be spent.
>
> Before Taxes are imposed I would sugest that a lex be passed
> formalizing the reports. This should define exactaly which months
> consist of a "Quarter", a deadline for making the report after the end
> of the Quarter (I sugest 14 days) and a requirements on how these
> reports should be submitted to the citizens.
>
> I remind the Senate of it's duty to Prepare the budget for 2754, and
> sugest that this be taken care of BEFORE taxes are imposed.
>
> Valete,
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Libertatis Festum
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:15:09 -0700

Ave Formosane;
-----Original Message-----
From: M. Apollonius Formosanus [mailto:bvm3@--------]
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 8:23 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Libertatis Festum

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Formosanus writes:
Today, the 13th of April is not only the Ides and one day in the
Ceralia, but is also the Festival of Libertas, Goddess of Liberty.
Libertas is typically depicted carrying the rod of manumission (for
the freeing of slaves) and wearing the Liberty Cap.

OFS: Gratias multas for the background on this important date!

<much snippage of topics that have been covered ad nauseaum>

Formosanus writes:
This should be a constant lesson for all who consider policy
and all lead us that for Nova Roma to prosper it must treat its cives
with respect and do its best to serve them.

OFS: Yes, we have been refreshed on this 'lesson,' over, and over and over
and over and
........

Formosanus writes:
Many a macronation can
force its citizens to serve it and weigh them down with heavy taxes,
punitive laws, official arrogance, political corruption, and
bureaucratic red tape - but we are not the kind of an entity that can
get away with that, and if it is tried, people of common sense will
simply depart.

OFS: Perhaps some further clarification? Is this a warning to the
magistrates?
A threat? Is this yet again some reference to the 'you know what' that
happened
last month?

Formosanus writes:
That gives us a constant bottom line of libertas here, although
some
seem to want to ignore it and act have Nova Roma act like a
macrostate that can get away with these abuses.

OFS: Abuses? Specifics please.

Formosanus writes:
I have recently had occasion to ask in this forum whether it is
possible for people of minority sexual groups to have their needs met
in straightforward and humane ways.

OFS: Yes, you have asked, the people have responded and the vote is
forthcoming. Perhaps you could focus on helping us with Latinitas or
some other positive endeavor?

Formosanus writes:

Is it possible, I have also
asked, for a user of a language other than English to receive - and
have his language receive - completely equal treatment here? And can
a dissenting voice be raised without being subject to hysterical
attacks and organised ridicule?

OFS: Yes, dissension is a common tactic of yours. In fact, I can see very
little of anything that you 'assent' to, unless it's something that you have
proposed
yourself. A phrase comes to mind: ad hominem, ad hominem, ad nauseam.

Formosanus writes:
I also see that the issue of clientela is being raised of late,
which is certainly a serious threat to the libertas of our society.

OFS: Why is that Formosanus? Because you disagree with it?

Formosanus writes:
I do not believe that it was completely evil in Roma Antiqua or that it
*has* to be evil in every case here.

OFS: Evil? Why such emotive terminology. Evil my good man, is subjective
at best and certainly has no consistent context anywhere in the world.
How about some context for this state of 'evil.'

Formosanus writes:
But I know it to have been used
here in at least one or two cases as a condition proposed or implied
for the obtaining of a senate seat.

OFS: I would be the first to agree that such a thing would be *extremely*
serious
indeed. You already have public statements from three clients in
the Respublica that have stepped forward of late. I can unequivocally
tell you that at least in my case, there was no promise of any such
thing and frankly, am unaware of any such way in that this could be
provided to a client under our current system of Government.

If you are
worried about such a thing taking place *and* have some detailed specifics
about the two cases you mention that involved trading promises for Senate
seats, then by all means lets discuss them, instead of bandying about
emotional terms and unfounded accusations. Otherwise, look seriously
at what we're trying to do, look at what we've actually *said,* look at the
actual stated *nature* of the relationships from those that had the nerve to
step forward and declare them.

Formosanus writes:
When I entered Nova Roma a little
over a year ago there was a solid consensus that some things such as
clientela, blood sacrifice, the inequality of the sexes, and slavery
were emphatically, absolutely and for ever *not* considered
appropriate for us to take over from Roma Antiqua.

OFS: I'll certainly defer to you from the longevity perspective. Since my
tenure
here though, I have seen no such 'consensus' about many of these topics,
other
than sexual equality and non-slavery, which I daresay we *all* agree on.
The other topics are discussed quite often in several Nova Roman venues.
This one and the Religio Romana list, just to name two. But to follow your
argument here, it seems like you're saying that what Formosanus thinks
was agreed was good, any discussion to the contrary is 'bad.'

Formosanus writes:
This consensus is
fraying, and the character of our social culture is changing for the
worse. I think we had all better beware of this trend and stand up
against it.

OFS: Yes, as our anointed guardian of truth, liberty and justice I suppose?
You are indeed adept at 'standing against' anything and everything, but so
little you stand for except your own narrow platforms and one-trick
legislative
platforms. Perhaps you can help combat all the perceived wrongs with Nova
Roma by utilizing some of your gifted abilities in linguistics? Perhaps some
web-enabled Latin courses, virtual seminars -something?

Formosanus writes:
There has been serious talk from one Tribune and one Consul about a
bill of rights in this year, which is certainly something that would
make Libertas happy, not to mention me... News of this will be very
welcome, supposing that it has specificity and teeth.

OFS: Well, we won't know until such a bill materializes before the voters.
Until such time, there's no point in discussing such a measure until we
have specifics to review.

Bene vale,
Oppius

<snipped>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Governors list
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:32:03 -0700

Salvete Governors et omnes,
If any of you governors did not receive an invitation to the Colloquim "Provincia" (Well it will be soon) please let me know. Especially you Senator Antonius Gryllus Graecus, I had some trouble sending you one of my posts earlier and want to make sure this post got through.

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] The Client Patron Relationship
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 06:58:12 -0000

Salvete,

I see no dishoner in this ancient practice. Some have condemed it as
being open to abuse, but what institution isn't? If two citizens wish
to enter into a relationship, then that is thier concern, not mine. At
least if two PRIVATE indiviuals wish to do this.

It does become a matter that concerns me if the citizens hold an
offical postion, and I was somewhat taken aback when our new Tribune
anounced that he was a client AFTER the polls had closed. The Question
of the Client/Patron relationship came up during the campaign, and I
think that either the Canidate or his Patron should have made this
relationship known at that time, instead of waiting until after voting
was finished. As this was a very close election, I think there's a
good chance that with holding this information could have affected the
outcome, and that is not a idea I'm happy with.

The Citizens have a right to know if a canidate has entered into this
relationship BEFORE the election, and to know if any other magistrates
have similar relationships. No I'm NOT calling for any kind of
disclosure lex. It would be unenforcable and mearly drive relations
into the shadows. I'm mearly asking that our magistrates and canidates
for offices do this out of personal honesty.

Valete,
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Client Patron Relationship
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 00:07:12 -0700

Ave,

Currently there is no legislation governing this practice. I would hope
that this would be legislated and areas such as this one could be
spelled out. As well as many other areas that would govern this
relationship can be spelled out as well.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

lsicinius@-------- wrote:
>
> Salvete,
>
> I see no dishoner in this ancient practice. Some have condemed it as
> being open to abuse, but what institution isn't? If two citizens wish
> to enter into a relationship, then that is thier concern, not mine. At
> least if two PRIVATE indiviuals wish to do this.
>
> It does become a matter that concerns me if the citizens hold an
> offical postion, and I was somewhat taken aback when our new Tribune
> anounced that he was a client AFTER the polls had closed. The Question
> of the Client/Patron relationship came up during the campaign, and I
> think that either the Canidate or his Patron should have made this
> relationship known at that time, instead of waiting until after voting
> was finished. As this was a very close election, I think there's a
> good chance that with holding this information could have affected the
> outcome, and that is not a idea I'm happy with.
>
> The Citizens have a right to know if a canidate has entered into this
> relationship BEFORE the election, and to know if any other magistrates
> have similar relationships. No I'm NOT calling for any kind of
> disclosure lex. It would be unenforcable and mearly drive relations
> into the shadows. I'm mearly asking that our magistrates and canidates
> for offices do this out of personal honesty.
>
> Valete,
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus
>
>
>
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 07:49:57 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave,
>
> Currently there is no legislation governing this practice. I would hope
> that this would be legislated and areas such as this one could be
> spelled out. As well as many other areas that would govern this
> relationship can be spelled out as well.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>

Ave Lucius Cornelius,

Thak you for your reply!

I can sugest one area where we can follow the practices of Roma
Antiquita in this matter. In the "Life of Marius" Plutarch mentions
that Marius held that his Cliental obligations were ended when he was
elected Tribune, however Plutarch goes on to say that Marius was
incorrect, that the bond was only formally disolved when someone
assumed a magistracy that held the right to set in the curule chair.

So I sugest that we follow the practices of Antiquita and end the
relationship when a Client gains an office that has imperium attached
to it.

See
http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/c_marius.html

Paragraph 5 for Marius's Clintal relationship and Plutarchs comment on
how the Cliental relationship was ended by office.

Vale,
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Exultans sum!
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 09:24:32 +0200

> Ave, romani quirites.
>
> It's 7:23 a.m. I should be sleeping. But I just can't wait to announce
>to all of you that...
>
>I'M FINALLY A CITIZEN.
>
>I'd like to thank censor L. Cornelius Sulla Felix both for his deep
>understanding and his helpful advices.
>And I'd like to thank all of you Novoromans (yes, even you, Draco)
>for making this nation/country/urbis a second home for me.
>
>EXULTANS SUM!
>
>
>=====
>Bene Valete!
>Gnaeus Salix Astur.
>Civis romanus.

Salve Honorable Gnaeus Salix Astur!

I Congratulate You with all of my heart! Welcome!

Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
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DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Exultans sum!
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 09:32:12 +0100 (BST)

Salve Salix

--- Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> wrote: >
> Ave, romani quirites.
>
> It's 7:23 a.m. I should be sleeping. But I just
> can't wait to announce
> to all of you that...
>
> I'M FINALLY A CITIZEN.

Welcome to the Res Publica, although you were already
very busy the last days ;-)

Vale
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix

=====
"De te autem, Catilina, cum quiescunt, probant; cum patiuntur, decernunt; cum tacent, clamant." (M. Tullius Cicero: In Catilinam I, 20)

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Libertatis Festum
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 03:30:08 -0500

QS;
You know that this medium leaves allot to be desire as far as total
communication is concerned, but I do not intend to start a detailed
dissecting of each and very post(total waste of time). That would be like
spinning in circles. So I will say that you have put to worst possible bent
to what I said, this does not worry me as I have seen this tactic used
repeatedly here. I will say that what YOU are talking about is influence
peddling, something I do not part take in, as I will partake in petty tit
for tat. But rest assured Senator I do not intend to cheapen this position
the way your are concerned about.

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: <LSergAust@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Libertatis Festum

>
> Salve Quintus Sertorius
>
> On 4/13/01 11:06 AM Quintus Sertorius (quintus-sertorius@--------) wrote:
>
> SNIPPED
> >>I
> >> do not believe that it was completely evil in Roma Antiqua or that it
> >> *has* to be evil in every case here. But I know it to have been used
> >> here in at least one or two cases as a condition proposed or implied
> >> for the obtaining of a senate seat.
> >
> >QS;
> >I would like to see where this was said, not that this is totally wrong.
> >
> Let me make certain I have our new Tribune's words right. You are saying
> that for an individual citizen to promise or imply that he will award a
> seat in the Senate as enticement for another citizen to enter his service
> is somehow acceptable?
>
> I sincerely hope you have misspoken here. I would hate to think that one
> who was just elected to serve the people and the Constitution is stating
> that public offices are commodities to be traded by individuals for their
> private gain.
>
> Please explain for us what you meant here.
>
> Vale,
>
> L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
>
>
>
>
> certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
>
> (You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Libertatis Festum
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 03:55:51 -0500

Clarification here;
This is from the last post and should read;
"I will say that what YOU are talking about is influence
peddling, something I do not part take in, as I will [not] partake in petty
tit
for tat."

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 3:30 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Libertatis Festum

> QS;
> You know that this medium leaves allot to be desire as far as total
> communication is concerned, but I do not intend to start a detailed
> dissecting of each and very post(total waste of time). That would be like
> spinning in circles. So I will say that you have put to worst possible
bent
> to what I said, this does not worry me as I have seen this tactic used
> repeatedly here. I will say that what YOU are talking about is influence
> peddling, something I do not part take in, as I will partake in petty tit
> for tat. But rest assured Senator I do not intend to cheapen this position
> the way your are concerned about.
>
> QS
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <LSergAust@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 11:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Libertatis Festum
>
>
> >
> > Salve Quintus Sertorius
> >
> > On 4/13/01 11:06 AM Quintus Sertorius (quintus-sertorius@--------)
wrote:
> >
> > SNIPPED
> > >>I
> > >> do not believe that it was completely evil in Roma Antiqua or that it
> > >> *has* to be evil in every case here. But I know it to have been used
> > >> here in at least one or two cases as a condition proposed or implied
> > >> for the obtaining of a senate seat.
> > >
> > >QS;
> > >I would like to see where this was said, not that this is totally
wrong.
> > >
> > Let me make certain I have our new Tribune's words right. You are saying
> > that for an individual citizen to promise or imply that he will award a
> > seat in the Senate as enticement for another citizen to enter his
service
> > is somehow acceptable?
> >
> > I sincerely hope you have misspoken here. I would hate to think that one
> > who was just elected to serve the people and the Constitution is stating
> > that public offices are commodities to be traded by individuals for
their
> > private gain.
> >
> > Please explain for us what you meant here.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
> >
> > (You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Alternative to Name-change Edict--Reply to Sulla
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 12:17:09 +0200

>In response to this suggestion...
>>> My 2 denarii: what if we put both the original AND the reworked
>>> version by Marius up for a vote? That would be honest, no?
>In fides,
>***********************************************************
>Lucius Marius Peregrinus <peregrinus@-------->

Salve Omnes!

I think this proposal is a honest and clear cut solution. I guess this also
is the way our Senior Consul wanted to go? Why would he otherwise ask for
an alternative version in the first place? The discussion could be halted
now! It is high time to vote and get this issue of the Agenda! Let's move
to new pastures! Law and legislation?

Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
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MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

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Subject:	[novaroma] NOVA ROMA: Capita XIV et XV
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:18:31 +0200

Salvete Novaromani,

Here are the new chapters of the NR Mars novel - thanks to Formosanus for
his accurate corrections on both my English and Latin. Comments and
suggestions welcome, as always.

These chapters are hereby also submitted under the Collegium of Clio in the
Cerealia Festival.

XIV. Si vis pacem, para bellum
------------------------------------

Draco blinked, then lay wide eyed, staring at the black camouflage plastic
of a tent. He realized he was alive. Someone must have dragged him into that
tent.
"I'm one lucky bastard," he muttered to himself. He tried to rise, but
immediately felt a sharp pain in his right leg and his lower back. He fell
flat, and tried again, this time with more success. He could now see outside
of the tent. It was night. A few people were talking to each other. He could
recognize them: the typical accent of Curio, the gestures that Peregrinus
made while talking, Ronanus' rabid grin and Oppius' passionate tone, as
though the good man was always debating. Draco crawled outside of his tent.
A few more tents were visible beyond the light cone around which the others
sat. Above the tent camp was a safety shield, which allowed the people
inside to wear regular clothes.
"Ah, so the terrible dragon has awoken?" Peregrinus chuckled.
"Permission to laugh, sir," Curio said.
"Brat," Peregrinus replied, his initial grin disappearing. Draco found an
empty spot around the light cone.
"What has happened, sirs?" he asked numbly.
"The ship crashed, in case you hadn't noticed," Ronanus spoke.
"I knew that. But afterwards, sir?"
"Audens is dead, as is Bicurratus and most of the ship's crew," Oppius
Flaccus gravely said.
"Sertorius was wounded, like you, and is resting in one of the tents.
Lutecio has seemingly disappeared. We were just discussing how we were going
to return to any base or city nearby."
"I see," Draco said, with a deep frown. So, the mysterius civilian, Lutecio,
had disappeared. The man must have had a link with the Martianalists.
"I still think he was spying on us for those blasted Martianalists," Ronanus
said, obviously reprising the discussion thread before Draco's arrival.
"Impossible. He wasn't wired," Peregrinus replied.
"How do you know that?" Oppius wanted to know. The military tribune's grin
reappeared.
"Audens' orders. This was a small, secret mission. As the computer expert
aboard, it was my task to search every room for anything suspicious. Too bad
I found Curio's secret por-"
"Allright allright," Oppius intervened, "whether Lutecio was a spy or not
has nothing to do with out problem. We're in a potentially hazardous
environment, with only one one-man escape pod from the ship with enough fuel
to go to a city in the neighbourhood. Even this light cone could betray us
to the Martianalists."
"We're behind the ship's wreckage. That should be enough to cover the light
emission with," Ronanus calmly said, "but regarding the escape pod; I'm a
volunteer to go. I had a little pilot training."
Oppius, the Phobos military, scraped his throat.
"So had I, if I may remind you."
"Let's flip coins then," Ronanus offered.
"Very well," Oppius agreed, definitely disturbed. He pulled out a coin.
"Tails," he announced, and then flipped it. Heads. Ronanus grabbed his gear
and rose to his feet.
"I'll tell them to come after you guys," he said, "and I'll fly as fast as
possible, if those crazy apes out here don't shoot me down."
"Mars te protegat," the others collectively said. He nodded and disappeared
through the double airlocks.

"Terrible news about Aundens and Bicurratus," Draco mumbled.
"We've offered our prayers to the Gods. May they be dwelling the Elysian
fields now," Oppius said. A loud cough was suddenly heard from another tent,
followed by a mild curse in Latin.
"I think Sertorius is awake, sir," Curio announced.
"And you can check on him," Peregrinus ordered. Curio opened his mouth to
say something but then simply shrugged and opened the tent flap. Sertorius
came crawling out. He appeared to have incurred a head wound.
"What happened?" the drill instructor inquired, coughingly dragging himself
to the light cone.
"The ship crashed; Audens and his crew died in the crash, as did Bicurratus.
Ronanus has headed for the escape pod to warn a nearby city to pick us up
from this desert, as our communication devices are broken," Oppius spoke.
Further conversation became impossible, because of a sudden noise that was
heard; the noise of the escape pod's engine that was warming up, and slowly
lifting itself above the dry red surface of the southern desert. It flew
over the tent camp and its frail shield, blasting sand and small rocks
against it. Its bright yellow lights made them bathe in an almost
preternatural light. Soon enough the pod flew higher above the desert. The
remaining soldiers followed the craft with their eyes. Suddenly the light
grew larger again.
"Why is it coming back?" Sertorius asked, more to himself than anyone else
in particular. Peregrinus put on his helmet and used his built-in
binoculars.
"It. it's flying in attack position!" he shouted, "Get your helmets on."
Draco and the others grabbed their helmets as quickly as possible, while the
sound of the pod came anxiously closer again, and the light made its way to
the tent camp. The small craft started spewing bullets, and pierced the
oxygen bulb. Tents were set on fire. Choked cries in helmets. The light cone
shattered.
Everyone seemed still alive, but the craft was coming back for a second
round. There was no time to ask why this had happened. Suddenly, when it
came back again to shoot its deadly fire at the soldiers, two bright beams,
of the genre that had taken out the airship, intercepted the pod in mid-air.
An explosion followed suit, and the remains came down, burning. The second
explosion as the debris hit the ground reflected in the dark visors of the
soldier's helmets.
"What was that?!" Oppius' voice sounded, panicked.
"I have no idea," Sertorius replied, sounding even weaker than before. He
was sitting on the ground next to a burning tent, and looked as though he
could vomit any moment. Draco didn't feel too well in his stomach either.
"If he was a spy for the Martianalists, then why would they shoot him down
like that?" Oppius inquired again. No one answered. Draco was looking for
Curio.
"Where's Curio?"
"Over here," his voice came, very weakly, from the ground. He was lying on
the ground. He had been shot in his right arm and right leg. So far he
hadn't had carbondioxide in his suit yet, and it hadn't begun to
depressurize yet. But Draco knew it would happen any moment. There was
nothing he could do to save his friend.
"Gods! No! Is there anything I can do?"
"I suppose not. Blast, I can't even smoke a last cig, like all heroes do
when they die," he tried to joke, but it came out rather forced.
"Stay calm," Peregrinus said, "it's the only solution."
"Yes. You can't do anything for me other than to leave me before you'll get
yourself killed with those mad Martianalists out there. They know we're
here," Curio said.
"Leaving you? I think not," Draco decided.
"You must. Mi Mari, order them to leave me."
"Leave him, miles Draco. We have to move on." Peregrinus' voice sounded
broken.
"And what if I ignore your order?" Draco asked. He realized he had tears in
his eyes. Curio's good arm managed to pull out his standard handgun, the
so-called pilum, a powerful ray gun.
"Do it, or I'll shoot you right here. For the love of Iuppiter, go away."
"Ok then." Draco hauled for a deep breath, and suddenly realized they'd all
die anyway if they were out here in the desert for more than ten hours
without an extra oxygen supply.
"Fare well, amice." Curio lowered his gun.
"Fare well," he said dryly and weak.
The party, Oppius and Draco supporting the limping Sertorius, moved on into
the nightly desert, where the dangers that awaited them were as numerous as
the stars in the sky.

XV. Homo homini lupus
----------------------------

When they came to arrest him, he was sitting in a roof taberna, quietly
having breakfast and coffee, reading his newspaper. This was one of the rare
moments where Diocletianus could barely contain his anger.
"There he is," he said to the two Aediles that accompanied him. The other
guests in the taberna looked disturbed, but also surprised.
"Salvete gentlemen," the man said, looking up at them from his coffee, "how
can I help you?"
"We came to arrest you," Diocletianus bluntly said, towering over the small
white table.
"Is that so?" the man asked, with a smirk, "then what am I charged with?"
"Scipio, could you read it aloud please?" Diocletianus asked his first
Aedilis.
"You are charged with the murder on Marcus Cassius Iulianus, Gneaus Moravius
Piscinus, Quintus Fabius Maximus, Nicolaus Moravius Vado, Natalia Moravia,
Aletheia Moravia, Marcus Marcius Rex, Livia Marcia Aurelia, Gaius Marcius
Coriolanus, Caius Aeilius Ericius, disturbing the public order, computer
hacking, high treason and forgery. You have the right to appeal to an
advocatus or a Tribunus Plebis."
"And how about a phonecall?"
"Listen pal," Diocletianus said, imitating a yankee accent and grabbing him
by the toga, "this is not your United States, traitor."
"Allright allright. You guys are so humourless these days. Wait a second
gentlemen, as I'm going to finish my coffee first." Before the cup could
reach his lips, Diocletianus grabbed it from his hands and tossed it over
the roof.
"Go get it," he added stridently. Both men looked at each other hatefully,
and the silence spoke more than words could have.
The curatrix of the roof taberna came running at the officers.
"Salve," Diocletianus said, regaining some of his calm.
"What are you doing here? You're disturbing the order in my restaurant. Many
Senatores and other people of good standing come here, you know."
"I am a Senator, and I'm also a Praetor. I've come to arrest this man. My
name is Caius Flavius Diocletianus and I came to arrest this man. What is
your name?"
"Priscilla Vedia Serena." The second Aedilis, Titus Sertorius Albinus,
jotted it down on an e-scriba.
"Then your husband must know me," Diocletianus said, "but anyway, I wanted
to ask you a couple of questions. Do you have some time?"
"Actually I haven't," she said, "but I have if you can be quick."
"Allright then. Does this man come here often?"
"Yes," Priscilla said, "I surely recognize him. I have no complaints about
him, though. He can be rude sometimes, but he always pays correctly and I've
never seen him disturb order in my taberna."
"I see. And do you know who he is?"
"Sir! I never ask for my customers' names, and neither are the personnel
supposed to." She called for one of her servants: "Appi Tulli, come over
here."
Meanwhile the people in the roof taberna had begun gossipping, peeking at
the officers and their arrestee from time to time. The latter remained calm,
looking over the pinkish sky. The servant, Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, a
timid and polite man, strolled over to the curatrix.
"Yes, how can I help you?" he asked.
"Do you know the name of this man?" Diocletianus asked the servant.
"Umm, let me think. No, I don't think he ever told me. Is it important?"
"It would be if you knew it. If you're truly speaking the truth, then it's
not important at all. Well, if you don't mind, we're taking this arrestee
with us. Valete atque gratias ago for your assistance."
Scipio shackled the arrestee, and obeidiently he followed the officers as
they left Priscilla's taberna, down the stairways to the praetorial car that
waited outside the high, white plastered building.
"I had expected you sooner," he said.
"Did you? Well, at least we got to you before the Martianalists did."
"Am I supposed to be grateful now?"
"You're not supposed to be anything at all. It's bad that you once betrayed
Mars, but now you did it twice," Diocletianus spat.
"Betrayal exists only in the eyes of the betrayed. Injustice exists only in
the minds of the victims. You think I am a criminal because I crossed an
invisible line drawn in the unlimited sands of time."
Diocletianus smiled wryly.
"Typical. The only person who would say such a thing is Gaius Lupinius
Festus."

-------***�O�***-------

look for Caput XVI, where the survivors in the lone desert are faced with
surrealistic dangers
look for Caput XVII, where all dirty secrets will become unveiled

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The alternative name-change edict
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 12:50:25 +0200

Salve O Censor,

((snipped))

> > My 2 denarii: what if we put both the original AND the reworked version
by
> > Marius up for a vote? That would be honest, no?
>

> Salvete,

Since when am I a plural entity?

> The Censors disagree,

And since when are you a plural entity? And why do you disagree?

> The current name change edict is a law as long
> as the
> authoring Censor remains in office. Not only that but it
> was written by C. Marius Merullus and L. Cornelius Sulla. For those
> who do
> not
> know, C. Marius is Lucia Maria's OWN Paterfamilias.

Still persisting on pestering Marius by using a female name. Why?

> If this name
> change
> edict satisfied his requirements to the extent that he defended it last
> year. And the fact that he co-authored the name change edict. I think
> that this should be the sole edict up for promulgation. (Now if anyone
> doubts the fact that the Paterfamilias spoke up in defense of the
> current edict, please feel free to go back into the archieves and check
> for yourself.)

These concerns have been addressed thoroughly by Marius Peregrinus himself I
believe.

Vale bene,
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
From:	Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:36:50 +0200

Lucius Corn--------s Sulla F-------- <al--------us@--------> wrot--------r> > Currently there is no legislation governing this practice. I would hope
> that this would be legislated and areas such as this one could be
> spelled out. As well as many other areas that would govern this
> relationship can be spelled out as well.

lsicinius@-------- wrote:
> I can sugest one area where we can follow the practices of Roma
> Antiquita in this matter. In the "Life of Marius" Plutarch mentions
> that Marius held that his Cliental obligations were ended when he was
> elected Tribune, however Plutarch goes on to say that Marius was
> incorrect, that the bond was only formally disolved when someone
> assumed a magistracy that held the right to set in the curule chair.
>
> So I sugest that we follow the practices of Antiquita and end the
> relationship when a Client gains an office that has imperium attached
> to it.

Salvete, quirites.

It feels as though what you're discussing here isn't the same bond as
myself and other citizens have proclaimed to be a part of. The only
source I'm basing this on is a novel series, yet it seems somewhat
fitting. In Roma Antiqua, a client was bound to his patron, more like
having sworn a vow of fealty to his patron, than the mentor/student
friendship we are talking about today in Nova Roma.

What I'm getting at is that I believe the citizens who first spoke up in
favor of establishing official client/patron relationships, in no way
intended to bond the clients to the will of the patrons. It was merely
to be a formalized way for newcomers to learn about the ways of our
beloved res publica.

Thus, it might be appropriate if we renamed the thread "The Student
Mentor Relationship", so traditionalists will not simply read the words
and get the wrong idea, which I fear might have been the case sometimes.

Just my two cents. I'm not out to offend anyone, nor get flamed for my
inadequate performance in this debate. Thus, I offer up my apologies
beforehand.

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consilarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
From:	Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:42:33 +0200

Kristoffer From wrote:
> Salvete, quirites.

> Vale,

Salvete,

Of course I meant "valete", sorry...unless "quirites" in latin is
singular...then I meant "salve"...agh! My head hurts...:)

Valete,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consilarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 14:00:00 +0200

>Lucius Corn--------s Sulla F-------- <al--------us@--------> wrot--------font>
>> Currently there is no legislation governing this practice. I would hope
>> that this would be legislated and areas such as this one could be
>> spelled out. As well as many other areas that would govern this
>> relationship can be spelled out as well.
>
>lsicinius@-------- wrote:
>> I can sugest one area where we can follow the practices of Roma
>> Antiquita in this matter. In the "Life of Marius" Plutarch mentions
>> that Marius held that his Cliental obligations were ended when he was
>> elected Tribune, however Plutarch goes on to say that Marius was
>> incorrect, that the bond was only formally disolved when someone
>> assumed a magistracy that held the right to set in the curule chair.
>>
>> So I sugest that we follow the practices of Antiquita and end the
>> relationship when a Client gains an office that has imperium attached
>> to it.
>
>Salvete, quirites.
>
>It feels as though what you're discussing here isn't the same bond as
>myself and other citizens have proclaimed to be a part of. The only
>source I'm basing this on is a novel series, yet it seems somewhat
>fitting. In Roma Antiqua, a client was bound to his patron, more like
>having sworn a vow of fealty to his patron, than the mentor/student
>friendship we are talking about today in Nova Roma.
>
>What I'm getting at is that I believe the citizens who first spoke up in
>favor of establishing official client/patron relationships, in no way
>intended to bond the clients to the will of the patrons. It was merely
>to be a formalized way for newcomers to learn about the ways of our
>beloved res publica.
>
>Thus, it might be appropriate if we renamed the thread "The Student
>Mentor Relationship", so traditionalists will not simply read the words
>and get the wrong idea, which I fear might have been the case sometimes.
>
>Just my two cents. I'm not out to offend anyone, nor get flamed for my
>inadequate performance in this debate. Thus, I offer up my apologies
>beforehand.
>
>Vale,
>
>Titus Octavius Pius,
>Consilarius Thules,
>Praeco Anarei Thules,
>Scriba to the Curator Araneum

Salve Consilarius Thules, Praeco Anarei Thules, Scriba to the Curator
Araneum Titus Octavius Pius, my dear friend!

I agree! Newcomers may need someone who guide them at first, call them
mentors, friends or patrons. Anyway it is nothing like the
patron/clientship of Roma Antiqua!

Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] NOVA ROMA: Capita XIV et XV
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 14:32:57 +0200

>Salvete Novaromani,
>
>Here are the new chapters of the NR Mars novel - thanks to Formosanus for
>his accurate corrections on both my English and Latin. Comments and
>suggestions welcome, as always.
>
>These chapters are hereby also submitted under the Collegium of Clio in the
>Cerealia Festival.

Salve Honorable Legatus and Procurator Sextus Apollonius Draco, my friend!

I thank You once again for your tireless work for Nova Roma! An European
meeting this year will be to early for me. Well, I may be in Hispania in
November though.

I also want to thank You for the good story that You have the faith and
strength to continue to tell us! I am eagerly waiting for capita XVI et
XVII.

I think You felt some despair some time back, but now not only You, but a
few others have sent in contributions to the Cerealia Festival. Feel any
better? I haven't had the time to send in any contribution, as I think You
understand,but it should have been to Clio though. I'll be back next year!

Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:20:17 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@t...> wrote:
> Lucius Corn--------s Sulla F-------- <al--------us@--------> wrot--------font>
> > Currently there is no legislation governing this practice. I
would hope
> > that this would be legislated and areas such as this one could be
> > spelled out. As well as many other areas that would govern this
> > relationship can be spelled out as well.
>
> lsicinius@-------- wrote:
> > I can sugest one area where we can follow the practices of Roma
> > Antiquita in this matter. In the "Life of Marius" Plutarch mentions
> > that Marius held that his Cliental obligations were ended when he was
> > elected Tribune, however Plutarch goes on to say that Marius was
> > incorrect, that the bond was only formally disolved when someone
> > assumed a magistracy that held the right to set in the curule chair.
> >
> > So I sugest that we follow the practices of Antiquita and end the
> > relationship when a Client gains an office that has imperium attached
> > to it.
>
> Salvete, quirites.
>
> It feels as though what you're discussing here isn't the same bond as
> myself and other citizens have proclaimed to be a part of. The only
> source I'm basing this on is a novel series, yet it seems somewhat
> fitting. In Roma Antiqua, a client was bound to his patron, more like
> having sworn a vow of fealty to his patron, than the mentor/student
> friendship we are talking about today in Nova Roma.
>
> What I'm getting at is that I believe the citizens who first spoke up in
> favor of establishing official client/patron relationships, in no way
> intended to bond the clients to the will of the patrons. It was merely
> to be a formalized way for newcomers to learn about the ways of our
> beloved res publica.
>
> Thus, it might be appropriate if we renamed the thread "The Student
> Mentor Relationship", so traditionalists will not simply read the words
> and get the wrong idea, which I fear might have been the case sometimes.
>
> Just my two cents. I'm not out to offend anyone, nor get flamed for my
> inadequate performance in this debate. Thus, I offer up my apologies
> beforehand.
>
> Vale,
>
> Titus Octavius Pius,
> Consilarius Thules,
> Praeco Anarei Thules,
> Scriba to the Curator Araneum
>
> AKA Kristoffer From
>

Salvete,
I see nothing wrong with a mentor/student relationship, nor even a
model that more closely follows that of antiquita as long as it made
clear that some kind of bond exists in the matter of public officals.
The actions of private indiviuals aren't my concern.

I started this thread with no more than a request that any person who
has entered a client/patron relationship make it known as a matter of
personal honesty.

Lest any mistake my words,
I have no reason to suspect that Quintus Sertorius and Lucius
Cornelius Sulla Felix entered into any kind of disreputable agreement
and I do NOT accuse them of this. I have no reason to think that
Quintus Sertorius intends to be a "tame tribune". Any one who has read
the posts our new Tribune made prior to the election will know that
it's beyond the powers of Lucius Cornelius or any other person to
"tame" Quintus Sertorius. My only problem with the relationship is
that there are some citizens who would have considered this a factor
when deciding how to vote and this relationship should have been
disclosed prior to the election.

Am I against the Client/Patron relationship? NO. I wish to see a
modern version of it OPENLY practiced in our Res Publica. Am I in
favor of leges regarding this relationship? NO. I think they will be
unenforcable. Lucius Cornelius mentioned his desire for enacting some
leges on this matter in his reply, and I did mention a source where an
ancient law is mentioned as a source that could be used in a debate on
what those leges would consist of.

I Am in favor of practicing this tradition openly and honestly, and
think that those who hold office should make this known as a matter of
personal honesty.

Valete,
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Call for Legati
From:	V_Praetoria@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 14:51:03 -0000

Avete,
My computer crashed yesterday and I lost alot of important work, one
of which was the list of Legati. If I could have the individuals who
contacted me from Texas, Oklahoma, and Arizona please email me back
with your intention, that would be greatly appreciated.

Pontius Sejanus Marius

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Nova Roma Coins ARE IN!
From:	Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:54:53 -0700 (PDT)

Whoat do "AQUVITAS", "IOM" (below the figure), and the
figure mean/represent on the coin (which is
spectacular!)?

-Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] HELVETIA annexa Germaniae 1
From:	"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:14:38 +0200

G. Noviodunus Ferriculus omnibus S.D.

> Is one's canton included in one's mailing address? If so, it would seem a

> simple matter to just pluck it out from the Citizenship application and

> compare it against a list. Much like the current situation in the United

> States...

No, you cannot rely on addresses. Swiss citizens won't necessarily have
even an ending .ch, like you can see in my address. Others would have
.fr or .de, if they are using a free mail service from France or Germany.

>>We, the Censors have a difficult enough task just doing our

>>regular duites. Most provinces in Nova Roma are fashioned on current

>>political lines, please let us not deviate too much from that practice,

>>

> for

>

>>when perspective citizens apply and they list an address where I dont

>>understand, it takes extra time and effort for me to properly allocate

>>

> that

>

>>citizen to the correct province.

>>

>

> If I may, the situation in Switzerland could be seen as being quite similar

> to that in the United States. After all, we don't have a single Provincia

> America. But, if the Censors would feel overburdened by having to look up

> which Swiss canton belongs to which province for 1.5% of our cives (13 out

> of 849 thusfar) then I might not be opposed to establishing a separate

> provincia. On the other hand, I am not sure I like the idea of setting up a

> new province every time a dozen-plus cives feels they are being

> mis-represented. After all, provincia are only an administrative tool...

>

> Any thoughts? I would especially like to hear from anyone else who might

> actually live in Switzerland...

I think, dividing according to cantons is nonsense as well, since
several cantons are billingual. So you would even have to consider in
which half of the canton one is living. That would be far too
complicated. That's why I suggested creating the provincia of Helvetia.

I don't think any group of 13 citizens should have their own Provincia,
but Switzerland is definitely a very special situation, because of the
multiple languages.

Valete

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Taxes and Audits
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 10:09:09 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Luci Sicini,

> There is a budget posted for 2753 but nothing for 2754, nor did I see
> a budget for 2754 in the consulta listed in the Tabularium, despite
> the requirement set forth in the constitution (V.B.1) that this be
> made no later than the kalends of November.

These are in now.

http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/index.html

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	[novaroma] Cerealia Festival once more
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 17:19:11 +0200

Salvete Quirites Novae Romae,

This is the last call for the festival of Ceres and the Founding of the City. The deadline is tomorrow, and I'd hate to see good talents or creative artwork lost by laziness or a bad time schedule. Therefore, citizens, if you have anything to contribute, do not hesitate to send it in!

For your information, here are the categories:

Clio: history (2 participants so far)
Calliope: epic poetry (1 participant so far)
Euterpe: music (0 participants so far)
Terpsichore: dance (0 participants so far)
Thalia: comedy (4 participants so far)
Polyhymnia: religious poetry (0 participants so far)
Melpomene: tragedy (0 participants so far)
Urania: astronomy and science (1 participant so far)
Erato: lyric poetry (1 participant so far)
Apollo: plastic arts and architecture (0 particpants so far)

So please citizens, there is still plenty of space and competition left, even if you feel you aren't "good enough". If you want the full rules ask me and I'll send them to you.

Valete bene!
Draco

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 17:25:17 +0200

Salve Tite Octavi,

> Kristoffer From wrote:
> > Salvete, quirites.
>
> > Vale,
>
> Salvete,
>
> Of course I meant "valete", sorry...unless "quirites" in latin is
> singular...then I meant "salve"...agh! My head hurts...:)
>
> Valete,
>

Quirites is plural, thus, valete is correct.

Vale bene,
Draco

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Subject:	[novaroma] Greetings from a Pseudonewcomer
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:51:36 -0000

Welcome back, Gaia Natalina Casca!!

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Libertatis Festum
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:45:52 EDT

Salve

I do not think there is any possible good "bend" that you can put on it
to say that offering or implying the offer of a Senate seat as a part of
a patron/client arrangement is not wrong. Nor do I think questioning the
idea is a "tactic" or "petty tit for tat" - after all, neither of us is
campaigning for office at present, as far as I know. However, I thank you
for your reassurance.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

On 4/14/01 3:30 AM Quintus Sertorius (quintus-sertorius@--------) wrote:

>QS;
>You know that this medium leaves allot to be desire as far as total
>communication is concerned, but I do not intend to start a detailed
>dissecting of each and very post(total waste of time). That would be like
>spinning in circles. So I will say that you have put to worst possible bent
>to what I said, this does not worry me as I have seen this tactic used
>repeatedly here. I will say that what YOU are talking about is influence
>peddling, something I do not part take in, as I will partake in petty tit
>for tat. But rest assured Senator I do not intend to cheapen this position
>the way your are concerned about.
>
>QS
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <LSergAust@-------->
>To: <novaroma@-------->
>Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 11:00 PM
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Libertatis Festum
>
>
>>
>> Salve Quintus Sertorius
>>
>> On 4/13/01 11:06 AM Quintus Sertorius (quintus-sertorius@--------) wrote:
>>
>> SNIPPED
>> >>I
>> >> do not believe that it was completely evil in Roma Antiqua or that it
>> >> *has* to be evil in every case here. But I know it to have been used
>> >> here in at least one or two cases as a condition proposed or implied
>> >> for the obtaining of a senate seat.
>> >
>> >QS;
>> >I would like to see where this was said, not that this is totally wrong.
>> >
>> Let me make certain I have our new Tribune's words right. You are saying
>> that for an individual citizen to promise or imply that he will award a
>> seat in the Senate as enticement for another citizen to enter his service
>> is somehow acceptable?
>>
>> I sincerely hope you have misspoken here. I would hate to think that one
>> who was just elected to serve the people and the Constitution is stating
>> that public offices are commodities to be traded by individuals for their
>> private gain.
>>
>> Please explain for us what you meant here.
>>
>> Vale,
>>
>> L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
>>

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 08:44:40 -0700

Salvete Omnes,
The idea of current client/patronage being more like a student/mentor
relationship is a great example of what I was addressing in my "Perfect
world" post. (Thanks Titus Octavius ) How can we utilize the name and
general spirit of ancient institutions in our modern world? It was good to
see several of you raise your hands in offer of help, however, I did not
mean to imply this was an action I was taking up on my own. If done it would
be best to let the Senators or their appointees sit on these committees.
IMHO.
If we can have some plan in writing it gains us two things.
I) Individuals and groups with written goals achieve their goals more often
than those who fail to put pen to paper.
II) Any builder needs a blueprint, especially if working as part of a team.

Comments appreciated,
Next year in the Forum!

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
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http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason
for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kristoffer From" <kristoffer.from@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 4:36 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship

> Lucius Corn--------s Sulla F-------- <al--------us@--------> wrot--------font>
> > Currently there is no legislation governing this practice. I would hope
> > that this would be legislated and areas such as this one could be
> > spelled out. As well as many other areas that would govern this
> > relationship can be spelled out as well.
>
> lsicinius@-------- wrote:
> > I can sugest one area where we can follow the practices of Roma
> > Antiquita in this matter. In the "Life of Marius" Plutarch mentions
> > that Marius held that his Cliental obligations were ended when he was
> > elected Tribune, however Plutarch goes on to say that Marius was
> > incorrect, that the bond was only formally disolved when someone
> > assumed a magistracy that held the right to set in the curule chair.
> >
> > So I sugest that we follow the practices of Antiquita and end the
> > relationship when a Client gains an office that has imperium attached
> > to it.
>
> Salvete, quirites.
>
> It feels as though what you're discussing here isn't the same bond as
> myself and other citizens have proclaimed to be a part of. The only
> source I'm basing this on is a novel series, yet it seems somewhat
> fitting. In Roma Antiqua, a client was bound to his patron, more like
> having sworn a vow of fealty to his patron, than the mentor/student
> friendship we are talking about today in Nova Roma.
>
> What I'm getting at is that I believe the citizens who first spoke up in
> favor of establishing official client/patron relationships, in no way
> intended to bond the clients to the will of the patrons. It was merely
> to be a formalized way for newcomers to learn about the ways of our
> beloved res publica.
>
> Thus, it might be appropriate if we renamed the thread "The Student
> Mentor Relationship", so traditionalists will not simply read the words
> and get the wrong idea, which I fear might have been the case sometimes.
>
> Just my two cents. I'm not out to offend anyone, nor get flamed for my
> inadequate performance in this debate. Thus, I offer up my apologies
> beforehand.
>
> Vale,
>
> Titus Octavius Pius,
> Consilarius Thules,
> Praeco Anarei Thules,
> Scriba to the Curator Araneum
>
> AKA Kristoffer From
>
> ---
>
> Si hoc signum legere potes,
> operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
> et fructuosis potiri potes.
>
> - Not-so-famous quotation
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Appointment of Legatus
From:	V_Praetoria@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 16:06:44 -0000

Avete Comiltones,
It is with great honor that I hereby appoint one Marcus Flavius as
Legatus of the Oklahoma territory. His background, experience, and
enthusiasm will definately be an asset to our Province.

Pontius Sejanus Marius
Propraetor, America Austroccidentalis

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Exultans sum!
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 16:22:54 -0000

Salve Gnaeus Salix,

...and CONGRATULATIONS. May the Gods infuse the entire Republic with
your enthusiaism ;-).

Vale,
Gaius Popillius Laenas

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] HELVETIA annexa Germaniae 1
From:	Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 18:30:49 +0200

C. Novioduno Ferriculo Lucilla Cornelia Cinna sd

I remember we had this discussion some time ago, and actually I don't
see any reason to stir it up again here on the main list, when the
organization of the province affected by your request after the
discussion was already brought to an end. In fact, at the moment
Switzerland is part of the Regio Germania superior, as in large parts it
was part of the province Germania superior in antiquity. There is a
legate appointed and he and his staff are working very hard to
establishe a lively Regio. You are virtually thwarthing their efforts by
installing a new discussion on the second day of your citizenship,
without ever having talked to anyone who runs this province and this
region, as far as I can see.

I already posted the data you need to start a discussion with the people
affected; however, you don't reply, but prefer to keep the discussion
here on the main list, although so far no other citizen of the
macronation Switzerland replied to your postings to join your complaints.

We will still welcome you to the province of Germania or Gallia or
Italia, whatever you prefer. When there will be a website for the Regio
Germania superior, I see no problem in bringing up a French and Italian
version as well, as long as someone is willing to supply us with the
translation.

A look at the map will easily show you that the provinces of Sarmatia et
Pannonia each cover several East and Southeast European macronations.
There is no problem there, despite of different languages.

I would like to ask you, what point are you trying to make here?

Lucilla Cornelia Cinna
Quaestrix C. Flavio Diocletiano Praetori Urbano atque Propraetori
provinciae Germaniae

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Taxes and Audits
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 16:55:31 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@c...> wrote:
> Salve Luci Sicini,
>
> > There is a budget posted for 2753 but nothing for 2754, nor did I see
> > a budget for 2754 in the consulta listed in the Tabularium, despite
> > the requirement set forth in the constitution (V.B.1) that this be
> > made no later than the kalends of November.
>
> These are in now.
>
> http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/index.html
>
> Vale, Octavius.
>

Salvete,

Thank you Marcus Octavius!

It seems I was looking in the wrong area for the passing of the budget.

I was looking for an item that it was passed prior to the kalends of
December as per V.B.1

1. No later than the last day of November of each year, the Senate
shall prepare a budget for the following year. This budget shall deal
with the disbursement of funds from the aerarium to the quaestors for
various purposes. Even though the quaestors assigned to the consuls
shall be responsible for the maintenance of the entire treasury, no
funds from it may be disbursed without the prior approval of the
Senate. The Senate may, as required by changing circumstances, pass
supplemental Senatus consulta to modify the annual budget.

When in fact it was passed on the last day of the year, and the
proposed budget is dated the 6th of December a full week after the
constionual deadline for approval of the budget.

If the Senate expects the citizens to pay thier taxes in a timely
manner then the citizens also have the right to expect the Senate to
comply with it's duties in a timely manner and meet the deadline for
the budget.

Since the Senate's task of passing the budget on time will be made
easier if it has reports from the Questers, I have an addition to make
to my proposal for spelling out the Quaterly reports. That the
Questers be charged with preparing a proposed budget and submitting it
to the Senate no later than the day before the Kalends of November.
This will give the Senators up to a full month to look over the
proposed budget before the deadline.

I also strongly urge that the proposed budget be made public so that
citizens will have the opertunity to comment on it prior to the
Senate's meeting to pass the budget for the next year.

It is imperative that the Quaterly reports be made on time and posted
for the citizens, and the the budget be approved in as an open matter
as possible. While V.B.2 states

2. The Senate may, by Senatus consultum, impose taxes, fees, or other
financial requirements on the citizens in order to maintain the
financial welfare of the state.

The Senate's power to levy taxes is in fact limited by the willingness
of the citizens to pay them. Making finical matters open to review by
the citizens will reassure the citizens that thier taxes are being
spent fairly and honestly and make them more willing to pay thier taxes.

Valete,
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] New Gens Member
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 10:12:48 -0700

Salvete Omnes,
It is with great pleasure that I announce the introduction of Publius Mauricius Falconius into Gens Mauricius and, as soon as our overworked and underpaid, honored and esteemed Censors are able, into Nova Roma.
Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
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http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
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http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] New Gens Member
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 10:22:49 -0700

Congratulations Gens Mauricia and welcome
Publius Mauricius!

-Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: Lucius Mauricius Procopious [mailto:procopious@--------]
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 10:13 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] New Gens Member

Salvete Omnes,
It is with great pleasure that I announce the introduction of Publius
Mauricius Falconius into Gens Mauricius and, as soon as our overworked and
underpaid, honored and esteemed Censors are able, into Nova Roma.
Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason
for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Ave Salix!
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 17:26:24 -0000

Ave Salix!

Congratulations on your citizenship!

I am hoping you took some time to "rest up" after the excitement on hearing
this good news :)

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 17:50:52 -0000

--- (snipped for brevity)

Salvete Omnes:

Without prejudice to those parties concerned , I am in agreement with
Lucius Sicinius Drusus: I think, although such a practise could never
be successfully legislated, that disclosures of a client/patron
relationship should be made by an electorial candidate at the outset
of an election, or atleast during the election, and not afterward. It
is a matter of "complete" disclosure. Granted, a candidate may not
think this is a matter of importance to his performance in a given
magistracy, but his prospective constituents might have differing
views, and they have a right to know all the facts, in consideration
of their voting decisions.

Valete,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
> >
>
> Salvete,
> I see nothing wrong with a mentor/student relationship, nor even a
> model that more closely follows that of antiquita as long as it made
> clear that some kind of bond exists in the matter of public
officals.
> The actions of private indiviuals aren't my concern.
>
> I started this thread with no more than a request that any person
who
> has entered a client/patron relationship make it known as a matter
of
> personal honesty.
>
> Lest any mistake my words,
> I have no reason to suspect that Quintus Sertorius and Lucius
> Cornelius Sulla Felix entered into any kind of disreputable
agreement
> and I do NOT accuse them of this. I have no reason to think that
> Quintus Sertorius intends to be a "tame tribune". Any one who has
read
> the posts our new Tribune made prior to the election will know that
> it's beyond the powers of Lucius Cornelius or any other person to
> "tame" Quintus Sertorius. My only problem with the relationship is
> that there are some citizens who would have considered this a factor
> when deciding how to vote and this relationship should have been
> disclosed prior to the election.
>
> Am I against the Client/Patron relationship? NO. I wish to see a
> modern version of it OPENLY practiced in our Res Publica. Am I in
> favor of leges regarding this relationship? NO. I think they will be
> unenforcable. Lucius Cornelius mentioned his desire for enacting
some
> leges on this matter in his reply, and I did mention a source where
an
> ancient law is mentioned as a source that could be used in a debate
on
> what those leges would consist of.
>
> I Am in favor of practicing this tradition openly and honestly, and
> think that those who hold office should make this known as a matter
of
> personal honesty.
>
> Valete,
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: European meeting
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 20:09:40 +0200 (CEST)

Salve, Draco.

--- "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@--------> escribi�: > Ave
Astur,
>
> (Congratulations on your citizenship, by the way!)

Thank you. Hey, what a cool letter type :-).

>
> I wanted to talk with you somewhat further on the possibility of a
> European meeting.
>
> First thing we have to set is a date. I think somewhere in the early
> summer vacation might not be a bad idea. How about July?

I think that, wherever we made it, we could get much more assistance if
we do it during the summer. And we have several months to planify.

I guess I'll be busy this summer (I am actually applying for a summer
job to several corporations), but I could try to be off a couple of
days. And, even if I couldn't go, I'd be very happy just to help you
and others to organize it.

>
> Second thing would be a place. I liked the suggestion of K�ln; it's
> pretty central in Europe. It's a far travel for Italian or Spanish
> cives, but so it is for Scandinavian cives. If we'd have a meeting in
> southern France the latter ones wouldn't even show up because of the
> distance. Before the Exodus of March there had been talks about a
> meeting in Trieste or Vienna in the last weekend of May, but I don't
> know if that's still a living plan, or if it died along with their
> planners.
>

I knew you would prefer K�ln to southern France. My suggsetion of
meeting in southwestern France was a little joke. It supposed to mean:
"why don't we do it here at my home so I don't have to move? :-)".
I have not heard about a meeting in May, though. But, as you know, I've
been a civis for a short period of time ;-). Maybe we should ask other
more experienced cives on this matter.

> Third thing, is the appointment of people who coordinate the event.
> The travel from a given country to that spot is in the hands of the
> respective provincial staffs, but if it is going to be a meeting
> that's longer than one day (which is very likely) we'll need a hotel
> (or a camping), and arrangements of visits to Roman sites and diverse
> Musea. The Propraetor of Germania could do this, as K�ln is a German
> city; however, I don't know how far he lives from that place. I would
> appreciate his comment on this, too (that's why I CC'd this to him).

I'll CC'd my response back to him. I'll also send it to NRHispania
(just in case anyone has a good idea). I'll also forward it to every
European provincial list (at least, to everyone I can find).

>
> Fourtht issue: how to contact citizens. Propraetores have the right
> to get the list of email addresses from their citizens, but the
> Censoriate has not fulfilled that request from Gallia so far, even
> though we asked it FOUR times. <sigh> Does Hispania have a
> Propraetor?
>

Unfortunately, we don't. Seems like no eligible candidate is willing to
accept the honour (that's the only explanation I can think of). I would
like to do the work myself, but I don't fulfill the requirements. I
would make a call to Salix Davianus (who presented an unsuccessful
candidature to the post) to join me in doing the work WITHOUT the
honours and benefits of the rank, but I don't know if he'll accept
(please let me know if you do, Daviane).

BTW, I've just read about Roman activities held yearly in the Spanish
city of M�rida (Roman Emerita Augusta). They make classic theatre
performances in the Roman amphytheatrum, and many reenactors assist (a
kind of "Roman Days", but with quite a lot of public). I would suggest
that Nova Roma made a formal petition of cooperation to the organizing
groups, although I haven't found out who they are, yet. I will keep you
all informed.

P.D.: I've tried to look for all European provincial lists, but
www.yahoogroups.com is not working correctly (it won't perform the
required search). Could you please forward this message to them later?
Thank you.

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Questions on the excellent new coins!
From:	pvitruviusiulianus@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 18:05:44 -0000

The coins a very beautiful, but there are some questions I have about
some of the images and words on them:

-What does "Iom" (below the figure but above concordia) mean?

-What does "Abquitas" (to the side of the figure surrounded by Nova
Roma and Concordia) mean?

-What is the figure (Inbetween civilitas, abqvitas, concordia, and
Nova Roma)?

Cum gratia,

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:10:34 -0700

Salvete Omnes,
I would like to remind everyone that the timing of Quintus Sertorius
announcement worked unfairly against him. He is not the only official
elected without disclosing bonds to a client/patron. Unfortunately, he chose
to be honest, as others had, at the wrong time. Lest we forget prior to this
current thread the acceptability of revealing such bonds was questionable.
He may have been waiting for approval from his Patron to reveal the bond.
Timing seems to be the real issue here.
Should I remove Oppius Flaccus from his legateship now that he has revealed
his bond to L. Cornelius Sulla? He was not forthcoming at the time of his
appointment. No! His bond at that time was perceived as private. I'll let
him keep his job even if he is linked with those Cornelians. :)

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason
for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
----- Original Message -----
From: <trog99@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 10:50 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship

> --- (snipped for brevity)
>
> Salvete Omnes:
>
> Without prejudice to those parties concerned , I am in agreement with
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus: I think, although such a practise could never
> be successfully legislated, that disclosures of a client/patron
> relationship should be made by an electorial candidate at the outset
> of an election, or atleast during the election, and not afterward. It
> is a matter of "complete" disclosure. Granted, a candidate may not
> think this is a matter of importance to his performance in a given
> magistracy, but his prospective constituents might have differing
> views, and they have a right to know all the facts, in consideration
> of their voting decisions.
>
>
> Valete,
> Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
> > >
> >
> > Salvete,
> > I see nothing wrong with a mentor/student relationship, nor even a
> > model that more closely follows that of antiquita as long as it made
> > clear that some kind of bond exists in the matter of public
> officals.
> > The actions of private indiviuals aren't my concern.
> >
> > I started this thread with no more than a request that any person
> who
> > has entered a client/patron relationship make it known as a matter
> of
> > personal honesty.
> >
> > Lest any mistake my words,
> > I have no reason to suspect that Quintus Sertorius and Lucius
> > Cornelius Sulla Felix entered into any kind of disreputable
> agreement
> > and I do NOT accuse them of this. I have no reason to think that
> > Quintus Sertorius intends to be a "tame tribune". Any one who has
> read
> > the posts our new Tribune made prior to the election will know that
> > it's beyond the powers of Lucius Cornelius or any other person to
> > "tame" Quintus Sertorius. My only problem with the relationship is
> > that there are some citizens who would have considered this a factor
> > when deciding how to vote and this relationship should have been
> > disclosed prior to the election.
> >
> > Am I against the Client/Patron relationship? NO. I wish to see a
> > modern version of it OPENLY practiced in our Res Publica. Am I in
> > favor of leges regarding this relationship? NO. I think they will be
> > unenforcable. Lucius Cornelius mentioned his desire for enacting
> some
> > leges on this matter in his reply, and I did mention a source where
> an
> > ancient law is mentioned as a source that could be used in a debate
> on
> > what those leges would consist of.
> >
> > I Am in favor of practicing this tradition openly and honestly, and
> > think that those who hold office should make this known as a matter
> of
> > personal honesty.
> >
> > Valete,
> > Lucius Sicinius Drusus
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 20:18:23 +0200 (CEST)

Salvete, romani quirites; et salve, Tite Octavi.

--- Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@--------> escribi�:
> Salvete, quirites.
>
> It feels as though what you're discussing here isn't the same bond as
> myself and other citizens have proclaimed to be a part of. The only
> source I'm basing this on is a novel series, yet it seems somewhat
> fitting. In Roma Antiqua, a client was bound to his patron, more like
> having sworn a vow of fealty to his patron, than the mentor/student
> friendship we are talking about today in Nova Roma.
>
> What I'm getting at is that I believe the citizens who first spoke up
> in
> favor of establishing official client/patron relationships, in no way
> intended to bond the clients to the will of the patrons. It was
> merely
> to be a formalized way for newcomers to learn about the ways of our
> beloved res publica.

Well, when I offered myself for clientele, I was thinking exactly about
this. I supposed we talked about a mentor/neophite relationship, where
friendship was the glue that joined them together. I have to say that
the responses I have received do follow exactly this path, so I guess
that many prospective "patrones" also agree with you.

>
> Thus, it might be appropriate if we renamed the thread "The Student
> Mentor Relationship", so traditionalists will not simply read the
> words
> and get the wrong idea, which I fear might have been the case
> sometimes.
>

I agree. I'll stop using the terms "patronis" and "cliens" until we
make this point clear.

> Just my two cents. I'm not out to offend anyone, nor get flamed for
> my
> inadequate performance in this debate. Thus, I offer up my apologies
> beforehand.
>

I add myself to Titus' apologies; just in case ;-).

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

_______________________________________________________________
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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:19:28 -0700

Salve Procopi!

Gratias multas for not holding it against me :-)
It shall have no effect on my loyalty to yourself
or to our magnificent province.

Bene vale,
Oppius Flaccus Severus, Legatus America Boreoccidentalis Major
-----Original Message-----
From: Lucius Mauricius Procopious [mailto:procopious@--------]
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 11:11 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship

Salvete Omnes,
I would like to remind everyone that the timing of Quintus Sertorius
announcement worked unfairly against him. He is not the only official
elected without disclosing bonds to a client/patron. Unfortunately, he chose
to be honest, as others had, at the wrong time. Lest we forget prior to this
current thread the acceptability of revealing such bonds was questionable.
He may have been waiting for approval from his Patron to reveal the bond.
Timing seems to be the real issue here.
Should I remove Oppius Flaccus from his legateship now that he has revealed
his bond to L. Cornelius Sulla? He was not forthcoming at the time of his
appointment. No! His bond at that time was perceived as private. I'll let
him keep his job even if he is linked with those Cornelians. :)

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason
for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
----- Original Message -----
From: <trog99@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 10:50 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship

> --- (snipped for brevity)
>
> Salvete Omnes:
>
> Without prejudice to those parties concerned , I am in agreement with
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus: I think, although such a practise could never
> be successfully legislated, that disclosures of a client/patron
> relationship should be made by an electorial candidate at the outset
> of an election, or atleast during the election, and not afterward. It
> is a matter of "complete" disclosure. Granted, a candidate may not
> think this is a matter of importance to his performance in a given
> magistracy, but his prospective constituents might have differing
> views, and they have a right to know all the facts, in consideration
> of their voting decisions.
>
>
> Valete,
> Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
> > >
> >
> > Salvete,
> > I see nothing wrong with a mentor/student relationship, nor even a
> > model that more closely follows that of antiquita as long as it made
> > clear that some kind of bond exists in the matter of public
> officals.
> > The actions of private indiviuals aren't my concern.
> >
> > I started this thread with no more than a request that any person
> who
> > has entered a client/patron relationship make it known as a matter
> of
> > personal honesty.
> >
> > Lest any mistake my words,
> > I have no reason to suspect that Quintus Sertorius and Lucius
> > Cornelius Sulla Felix entered into any kind of disreputable
> agreement
> > and I do NOT accuse them of this. I have no reason to think that
> > Quintus Sertorius intends to be a "tame tribune". Any one who has
> read
> > the posts our new Tribune made prior to the election will know that
> > it's beyond the powers of Lucius Cornelius or any other person to
> > "tame" Quintus Sertorius. My only problem with the relationship is
> > that there are some citizens who would have considered this a factor
> > when deciding how to vote and this relationship should have been
> > disclosed prior to the election.
> >
> > Am I against the Client/Patron relationship? NO. I wish to see a
> > modern version of it OPENLY practiced in our Res Publica. Am I in
> > favor of leges regarding this relationship? NO. I think they will be
> > unenforcable. Lucius Cornelius mentioned his desire for enacting
> some
> > leges on this matter in his reply, and I did mention a source where
> an
> > ancient law is mentioned as a source that could be used in a debate
> on
> > what those leges would consist of.
> >
> > I Am in favor of practicing this tradition openly and honestly, and
> > think that those who hold office should make this known as a matter
> of
> > personal honesty.
> >
> > Valete,
> > Lucius Sicinius Drusus
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 18:22:45 -0000

---
Salve Lucius Marucius Procopious:

Well, as one of "those" Cornelians, I just posted on complete
disclosure "without prejudice" against those parties concerned. It
doesn't matter if a candidate is a client of my Pater or Iulius Caesar
himself. I don't think it should be so private a matter that your
constituents should not be made aware of the situation.

Keep in mind that I have been in Cornelia for well over a year now; I
enjoy an excellent relationship with my Paterfamilias. I am speaking
out of principle, and I stick by my opinion.

Nobody is expecting you to fire your "appointed" (not elected) legate
(who is a very good man) simply because he patronizes Lucius Cornelius
Sulla. I am afraid you are reading more into my post than what is
truly there.

Vale,
Pompeia Cornelia

In novaroma@--------, "Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@h...>
wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
> I would like to remind everyone that the timing of Quintus Sertorius
> announcement worked unfairly against him. He is not the only
official
> elected without disclosing bonds to a client/patron. Unfortunately,
he chose
> to be honest, as others had, at the wrong time. Lest we forget prior
to this
> current thread the acceptability of revealing such bonds was
questionable.
> He may have been waiting for approval from his Patron to reveal the
bond.
> Timing seems to be the real issue here.
> Should I remove Oppius Flaccus from his legateship now that he has
revealed
> his bond to L. Cornelius Sulla? He was not forthcoming at the time
of his
> appointment. No! His bond at that time was perceived as private.
I'll let
> him keep his job even if he is linked with those Cornelians. :)
>
> Lucius Mauricius Procopious
> Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
> (This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> procopious@--------
> ICQ# 83516618
> *America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
> http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
> * The Gens Mauricia
> http://www.geocities.com/procopious
>
> "Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that
the
> affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the
reason
> for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause
is easy
> to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal
will
> decide for himself according to his taste."
> -Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died
c.560s]
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <trog99@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 10:50 AM
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
>
>
> > --- (snipped for brevity)
> >
> > Salvete Omnes:
> >
> > Without prejudice to those parties concerned , I am in agreement
with
> > Lucius Sicinius Drusus: I think, although such a practise could
never
> > be successfully legislated, that disclosures of a client/patron
> > relationship should be made by an electorial candidate at the
outset
> > of an election, or atleast during the election, and not afterward.
It
> > is a matter of "complete" disclosure. Granted, a candidate may
not
> > think this is a matter of importance to his performance in a given
> > magistracy, but his prospective constituents might have differing
> > views, and they have a right to know all the facts, in
consideration
> > of their voting decisions.
> >
> >
> > Valete,
> > Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
> > > >
> > >
> > > Salvete,
> > > I see nothing wrong with a mentor/student relationship, nor even
a
> > > model that more closely follows that of antiquita as long as it
made
> > > clear that some kind of bond exists in the matter of public
> > officals.
> > > The actions of private indiviuals aren't my concern.
> > >
> > > I started this thread with no more than a request that any
person
> > who
> > > has entered a client/patron relationship make it known as a
matter
> > of
> > > personal honesty.
> > >
> > > Lest any mistake my words,
> > > I have no reason to suspect that Quintus Sertorius and Lucius
> > > Cornelius Sulla Felix entered into any kind of disreputable
> > agreement
> > > and I do NOT accuse them of this. I have no reason to think that
> > > Quintus Sertorius intends to be a "tame tribune". Any one who
has
> > read
> > > the posts our new Tribune made prior to the election will know
that
> > > it's beyond the powers of Lucius Cornelius or any other person
to
> > > "tame" Quintus Sertorius. My only problem with the relationship
is
> > > that there are some citizens who would have considered this a
factor
> > > when deciding how to vote and this relationship should have been
> > > disclosed prior to the election.
> > >
> > > Am I against the Client/Patron relationship? NO. I wish to see a
> > > modern version of it OPENLY practiced in our Res Publica. Am I
in
> > > favor of leges regarding this relationship? NO. I think they
will be
> > > unenforcable. Lucius Cornelius mentioned his desire for enacting
> > some
> > > leges on this matter in his reply, and I did mention a source
where
> > an
> > > ancient law is mentioned as a source that could be used in a
debate
> > on
> > > what those leges would consist of.
> > >
> > > I Am in favor of practicing this tradition openly and honestly,
and
> > > think that those who hold office should make this known as a
matter
> > of
> > > personal honesty.
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > > Lucius Sicinius Drusus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
From:	Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:38:15 -0700 (PDT)

Greetings all,

Forgive the apparently scattered threads of thought, I
will tie them together shortly...

One of the hallmarks of the "ancient" world was, as
Nietzsche so aptly noted, the Order of Rank. Manifest
in nearly all human relations was a tacit practice and
acceptance of non-parity. The english words "equal"
and "equality" share a root with the Latin "equito,
equus" (i ride, horse) and betray the origins of our
very modern understanding of human interaction. An
equal was a man who could meet you on the field of
war, a man who had the considerable wealth to maintain
the health and care of a horse. An equal was not a
proletarian with only his head count and his children.
If you had a horse, or wealth, or an estate, or a
seat in the senate your equal was anyone else who
ranked the same, not just plain everyone else.

In Roma, at least as far as survives in the literature
and history of the period, this inequity was enshrined
in the structure of government. Most contemporary
peoples of the Mediterranean basin appear to have done
the same. Remember, SPQR is the Senate and the People
of Rome..with a marked difference between Senate (old
men) and Populace.

Harold Bailey, in the "Hidden Meaning of Words," notes
that the "ak" sound clearly denotes power and control
for the the Entire Indo-European language group.

Act, Axe, Facses (fak-says), magistrate, akhnaton,
allahu akbar, iuppiter maximus, magnanimus...(in the
latin there appears to have been a labial drift which
attaches the "m" sound in front of the power "ak, ag,
ax")...achaea, chaos, agammemnon, aleskander,
pontifex, attack, and so on...

Amongst the peoples of the mediterranean, and the
wider Indo-European linguagenetic stock there is a
clear indication that with the end of the protean
matriarchy (there's that sound again, -archy) the
worshippers of the sky gods layered their belief
systems over the older original power structures of
the matriarchal culture, a cilvilation we know little
about, but from archaelogical inferences was both
sacrificially brutal, and subtly humane.

Resident in this cultural hybrid has always since then
been two dominant poles of Western human behavior..the
frontal, aggressive (sound again), ranked, logic-hunt
oriented masculine - and - the limbic, subtle,
associative, intuitive feminine.

The Client-patron relationship was a very Roman play
on this theme. It recognized both the rank inherent
in the competitive world of the Sky Gods, and the
fertile, fecund, unpredictable nature of the earth and
soil of the great feminine Gaea.

As below, so above. A client was a fief, a patron was
a liege...as in allegiance. As in, "I will do your
bidding, patrone, and you will protect my interests."

A parody of marriage for the almost exclusively
masculine world of Roman politics?

And the ligio - for those concerned about the abuse of
the Client-Patron relationship...about two thousand
years ago, a chandala movement, a great and true
revolution in human consciousness, was
unleashed...christianity...which attacked the rank
underpinnings of the entire Mediterranean.

For the last two millenia, we have believed mighty
differently from our Roman forebears. We have
believed, and sometimes practiced, this notion of
absolute parity amongst persons. Christianty
proclaimed that God controlled everything, that no man
acted without God dealing out the card first. As this
became accepted as a Truth men began to question the
relations of men, and especially the order of rank.
This, of course, has happened over centuries of time.
If god is the only master, goes the question, then
what business does the magistrate, the patrician, the
pontifex, the senator, the king have to rule my life?

No way buddy, goes the answer, of course played out
over the millenia.

Enter at the very cusp of this modern experiment in
Christendom and its evil son, Corporate
Feudalism...enter a tiny proto-corporate entity which
calls itself Nova Roma.

We have five millenia of recorded history to
reference. Our spiritual forebears were as syncretic
a bunch as the species has ever known. Is it possible
to hallow patronage without repeating the abuses of
the past? Is it possible to weave it into the
structure of Nova Roma whilst still recognizing the
last 2k years?

Who knows. Let's just remember what era it hails
from, an era where the order of rank, of power and
auctoritas (there's that sound again) and obedience to
one's betters was the Rule.

Caling it a mentoring relationship doesn't change what
some people want to do with it. Ambition knowns no
exclusive epoch. Ambition killed Prima Roma. It has
turned the second Rome (the Vatican) into to
antithesis of its stated intent. Will it cripple
Tertia Roma (Nova Roma) before it ever learns to walk?

Ambition, like authority and intrusion, will pursue
any avenue open to it. Legislation rarely throttles
ambition, it just paves its way and clarifies its
options.

Ambition, as our Roman ancestors recognized, isn't
necessarily bad, and is generally a fruitful human
behavior, when men can interact face to face, read
expression, oppose and support. In a venue as
secretive and obstructive of scrutiny as the Internet,
ambition is easily persuaded to pursue its ends
without restraint.

All this verbosity for what?

Do we really want to establish, at this time, a
classic and classical relationship which recognizes
betters and lessers, in an environment which allows
for no social restraint, within an already (purposely)
oligarchical organization? Does anyone think this
won't absolutely be abused?

Sorry for all the words, but i wanted to lead up to
that point, whilst mocking my own erudtion be opening
myself up to a thousand (welcome) attacks by several
hundred persons whose given names I do not know...

Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs Peregrinus
Jason Charles Henry Kay

--- lsicinius@-------- wrote:
> --- In novaroma@--------, Kristoffer From

&g--------l--------is--------er.from@--------&g--------ro--------/fon--------r> > > Lucius Corn--------s Sulla F-------- <al--------us@-------->
> wrote:
> > > Currently there is no legislation governing this
> practice. I
> would hope
> > > that this would be legislated and areas such as
> this one could be
> > > spelled out. As well as many other areas that
> would govern this
> > > relationship can be spelled out as well.
> >
> > lsicinius@-------- wrote:
> > > I can sugest one area where we can follow the
> practices of Roma
> > > Antiquita in this matter. In the "Life of
> Marius" Plutarch mentions
> > > that Marius held that his Cliental obligations
> were ended when he was
> > > elected Tribune, however Plutarch goes on to say
> that Marius was
> > > incorrect, that the bond was only formally
> disolved when someone
> > > assumed a magistracy that held the right to set
> in the curule chair.
> > >
> > > So I sugest that we follow the practices of
> Antiquita and end the
> > > relationship when a Client gains an office that
> has imperium attached
> > > to it.
> >
> > Salvete, quirites.
> >
> > It feels as though what you're discussing here
> isn't the same bond as
> > myself and other citizens have proclaimed to be a
> part of. The only
> > source I'm basing this on is a novel series, yet
> it seems somewhat
> > fitting. In Roma Antiqua, a client was bound to
> his patron, more like
> > having sworn a vow of fealty to his patron, than
> the mentor/student
> > friendship we are talking about today in Nova
> Roma.
> >
> > What I'm getting at is that I believe the citizens
> who first spoke up in
> > favor of establishing official client/patron
> relationships, in no way
> > intended to bond the clients to the will of the
> patrons. It was merely
> > to be a formalized way for newcomers to learn
> about the ways of our
> > beloved res publica.
> >
> > Thus, it might be appropriate if we renamed the
> thread "The Student
> > Mentor Relationship", so traditionalists will not
> simply read the words
> > and get the wrong idea, which I fear might have
> been the case sometimes.
> >
> > Just my two cents. I'm not out to offend anyone,
> nor get flamed for my
> > inadequate performance in this debate. Thus, I
> offer up my apologies
> > beforehand.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Titus Octavius Pius,
> > Consilarius Thules,
> > Praeco Anarei Thules,
> > Scriba to the Curator Araneum
> >
> > AKA Kristoffer From
> >
>
> Salvete,
> I see nothing wrong with a mentor/student
> relationship, nor even a
> model that more closely follows that of antiquita as
> long as it made
> clear that some kind of bond exists in the matter of
> public officals.
> The actions of private indiviuals aren't my concern.
>
> I started this thread with no more than a request
> that any person who
> has entered a client/patron relationship make it
> known as a matter of
> personal honesty.
>
> Lest any mistake my words,
> I have no reason to suspect that Quintus Sertorius
> and Lucius
> Cornelius Sulla Felix entered into any kind of
> disreputable agreement
> and I do NOT accuse them of this. I have no reason
> to think that
> Quintus Sertorius intends to be a "tame tribune".
> Any one who has read
> the posts our new Tribune made prior to the election
> will know that
> it's beyond the powers of Lucius Cornelius or any
> other person to
> "tame" Quintus Sertorius. My only problem with the
> relationship is
> that there are some citizens who would have
> considered this a factor
> when deciding how to vote and this relationship
> should have been
> disclosed prior to the election.
>
> Am I against the Client/Patron relationship? NO. I
> wish to see a
> modern version of it OPENLY practiced in our Res
> Publica. Am I in
> favor of leges regarding this relationship? NO. I
> think they will be
> unenforcable. Lucius Cornelius mentioned his desire
> for enacting some
> leges on this matter in his reply, and I did mention
> a source where an
> ancient law is mentioned as a source that could be
> used in a debate on
> what those leges would consist of.
>
> I Am in favor of practicing this tradition openly
> and honestly, and
> think that those who hold office should make this
> known as a matter of
> personal honesty.
>
> Valete,
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus
>
>

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:41:28 -0700

Salvete Pompeia et Quiritibus;

First of all, let me say that I can fully understand why yourself,
L. Sicinus and others would wish to question such a practice.
After all, it is new and as Procopi has stated -was reviewed publicly
in a mixed light at best.

I won't presuppose to speak for Tribune Sertorius; but as to
the general issue of clientage itself - I would humbly remind everyone that
there
was *no* obligation on *anyone's* part to reveal *anything.* It was
done as a test, to see how it would be received, especially since some of us
who were practicing this relationship felt that it was best to test
the waters of disclosure.

Secondly, in response to L. Sicinus' point regarding voting implications;
I would agree on his specific point that it would have indeed influenced
the minds of some, or perhaps many voters. Since we are still very
much in the 'definitional' stages of the Respublica, it's practices and
institutions; it could *also* be called unfair to bias the voters' minds
against someone who has declared a relationship publicly. This is what
very well would have happened had Tribune Sertorius announced in
mid-election. (Or prior to the election for that matter.)

Per point one,
reaction is *still* very mixed in such an early phase of discussion
and would have just presented a tangential issue for public focus,
instead of the core issues and worthiness of the candidate itself.
As it was, the reason the race was so close was due to the sheer
excellence of the candidates and the fact that the voters were able
to judge the men on their own merits as opposed to their associations.

Lastly, has been well stated by others recently, we are absolutely not
discussing oath of fealty situations, or any similar arrangement. The
type of relationship being practiced was announced openly and forthrightly.
As to whether or not this should be a component of future elections; then
I can only say -maybe yes, and maybe no -but personally, I feel that
there are too many components of the issue to be fully addressed prior
to advocating that anyone else step forward to say anything.

My suggestion would be to discuss the issue further, to discuss *exactly*
what we all mean by such a relationship, define the common terminology
and see how our Tribune does in his tenure of office. (Which will be a
drastically shortened year anyways.) Since this is a test case, perhaps
we can see how it goes, discuss it further and *then* make our
determinations
as to what should be done in the future.

Bene valete,
Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: trog99@-------- [mailto:trog99@--------]
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 10:51 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship

--- (snipped for brevity)

Salvete Omnes:

Without prejudice to those parties concerned , I am in agreement with
Lucius Sicinius Drusus: I think, although such a practise could never
be successfully legislated, that disclosures of a client/patron
relationship should be made by an electorial candidate at the outset
of an election, or atleast during the election, and not afterward. It
is a matter of "complete" disclosure. Granted, a candidate may not
think this is a matter of importance to his performance in a given
magistracy, but his prospective constituents might have differing
views, and they have a right to know all the facts, in consideration
of their voting decisions.

Valete,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
> >
>
> Salvete,
> I see nothing wrong with a mentor/student relationship, nor even a
> model that more closely follows that of antiquita as long as it made
> clear that some kind of bond exists in the matter of public
officals.
> The actions of private indiviuals aren't my concern.
>
> I started this thread with no more than a request that any person
who
> has entered a client/patron relationship make it known as a matter
of
> personal honesty.
>
> Lest any mistake my words,
> I have no reason to suspect that Quintus Sertorius and Lucius
> Cornelius Sulla Felix entered into any kind of disreputable
agreement
> and I do NOT accuse them of this. I have no reason to think that
> Quintus Sertorius intends to be a "tame tribune". Any one who has
read
> the posts our new Tribune made prior to the election will know that
> it's beyond the powers of Lucius Cornelius or any other person to
> "tame" Quintus Sertorius. My only problem with the relationship is
> that there are some citizens who would have considered this a factor
> when deciding how to vote and this relationship should have been
> disclosed prior to the election.
>
> Am I against the Client/Patron relationship? NO. I wish to see a
> modern version of it OPENLY practiced in our Res Publica. Am I in
> favor of leges regarding this relationship? NO. I think they will be
> unenforcable. Lucius Cornelius mentioned his desire for enacting
some
> leges on this matter in his reply, and I did mention a source where
an
> ancient law is mentioned as a source that could be used in a debate
on
> what those leges would consist of.
>
> I Am in favor of practicing this tradition openly and honestly, and
> think that those who hold office should make this known as a matter
of
> personal honesty.
>
> Valete,
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Appointment of Legatus
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:46:57 -0700

Salvete Ponti Sejane et Quiritibus;

Many hearty congratulations to you Marcus Flavius
on your appointment as Legatus! May the Gods bless
your efforts. I'm sure you will make a great addition
to Pontius' staff.

Bene valete,
Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: V_Praetoria@-------- [mailto:V_Praetoria@--------]
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 9:07 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Appointment of Legatus

Avete Comiltones,
It is with great honor that I hereby appoint one Marcus Flavius as
Legatus of the Oklahoma territory. His background, experience, and
enthusiasm will definately be an asset to our Province.

Pontius Sejanus Marius
Propraetor, America Austroccidentalis


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 18:49:20 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@h...>
wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
> I would like to remind everyone that the timing of Quintus Sertorius
> announcement worked unfairly against him. He is not the only official
> elected without disclosing bonds to a client/patron. Unfortunately,
he chose
> to be honest, as others had, at the wrong time. Lest we forget prior
to this
> current thread the acceptability of revealing such bonds was
questionable.
> He may have been waiting for approval from his Patron to reveal the
bond.
> Timing seems to be the real issue here.

This is correct. The matter of the Client/Patron Relationship became a
subject of public debate DURING the tribune's campaign and my opinion
is that Quintus Sertorius should have made his relationship known as
soon as the debate started.

> Should I remove Oppius Flaccus from his legateship now that he has
revealed
> his bond to L. Cornelius Sulla? He was not forthcoming at the time
of his
> appointment. No! His bond at that time was perceived as private.
I'll let
> him keep his job even if he is linked with those Cornelians. :)
>

As I'm not a citizen of your Provincia, How you choose to handle these
matters is NOT a concern of mine. However since I started this thread
I'll comment on this. Oppius Flaccus entered his relationship BEFORE
this became a matter of public debate, and recived his apointment
BEFORE the debate began. When the Client/Patron relationship debate
started he came forward and disclosed his Relationship with Lucius
Cornelius. I commend Oppius Flaccus for his honesty. He has served as
the model for how others should act in this situation. To punish him
because of his honesty would be a grave injustice.

L. Sicinius Drusus

> Lucius Mauricius Procopious
> Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
> (This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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Subject:	[novaroma] Exultans sum!: Thank you for your welcome.
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 20:50:12 +0200 (CEST)

Salvete, romani quirites.

I just wanted to thank you all for your warm welcome. I'll try to live
up to your high expectations and to Roman virtues.

Valete bene, romani!
Gnaeus Salix Astur, civis romanus.

--- ksterne@-------- escribi�: > Salve Gnaeus Salix,
>
>
> ...and CONGRATULATIONS. May the Gods infuse the entire Republic with
>
> your enthusiaism ;-).
>
> Vale,
> Gaius Popillius Laenas

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Budget
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 15:02:47 -0400 (EDT)

Citizen of Nova Roma;

In regard to a budget for the present year (2001--you may translate that
to the NR year as yu wish) a Budget was submitted to the Senate by
myself and Senator / Quaestor Cassia. It was my understanding that this
Budget was approved by the Senate.

The Budget was issued to the Senate in December vs. November of last
year and this one month differece was cleared by Edict of the then
Senior Consul Q Fabius Maximus.

If the 2001 Budget is not placed in the NR files where it is supposed to
be, then I ask the Honored Consuls to determine the reason why and to
appoint someone to locate the 2001 budget records and place them
properly.

I applaud Citizen Lucius Sicinius Drusus' research, but I can assure him
that such a 2001 NR Budget, as I have mentioned, was completed by myself
and Senator Cassia, and submitted to the Senate last year.

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Alternative to Name-change Edict--Reply to Sulla
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:05:43 +0200

Salvete Quirites Novae Romae,

> >In response to this suggestion...
> >>> My 2 denarii: what if we put both the original AND the reworked
> >>> version by Marius up for a vote? That would be honest, no?
> >In fides,
> >***********************************************************
> >Lucius Marius Peregrinus <peregrinus@-------->
>
> Salve Omnes!
>
> I think this proposal is a honest and clear cut solution. I guess this
also
> is the way our Senior Consul wanted to go? Why would he otherwise ask for
> an alternative version in the first place? The discussion could be halted
> now! It is high time to vote and get this issue of the Agenda! Let's move
> to new pastures! Law and legislation?
>

Salve Quintiliane,

You have spoken wise words, which I whole-heartedly "me-too".

Vale optime!
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: A Boy Named Sue
From:	Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 12:14:53 -0700 (PDT)

Salve L. Sicinius,

Please accept my apologies for not responding
immediately; I am still collating my reply. I should
have it to you by Sunday evening (EST) if that is
acceptable to you.

Iasonvs Serenvs
--- lsicinius@-------- wrote:
> --- In novaroma@--------, Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs
> <iasonvs_serenvs@-------->
> wrote:
> > Salve Sicinius (et al)
> >
> > I just happen to live in NH, and my mother just
> > happens to write grants for (charitable)
> non-profit
> > corporations. If you will phrase a specific
> question
> > regarding the NH RSAs as concerns nonprofit corps,
> I
> > will ask my mother (how juvenile that sounds) as
> she
> > is a professional in these matters. She also sits
> on
> > the boards of several corporations in these parts,
> and
> > knows just about everyone in the state...As for
> those
> > of you getting ideas about grants and fundraising,
> mi
> > madre is a devout catholic who is convinced her
> eldest
> > is destined to an eternity of damnation, and would
> > therefor not likely help raise capital for a
> "damned
> > pagan" organization....
> >
> >
> > Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs Peregrinus
>
>
> Salve Iasonvs Serenvs,
>
> First I thank you for your offer.
>
> I have several Questions.
>
> 1. What are the requirements for financial reports
> from the board
> (Senate) to the members (citizens)? Quarterly,
> Anually?
>
> 2. Do the members have the right to challenge a
> report and request an
> outside audit? If so under what conditions?
>
> 3. If funds spent for personal gain, are there any
> criminal penalities
> or is it limited to a civil matter?
>
> Also I wish to make it plain, I'm NOT asking these
> questions because I
> have any reason to suspect that any offical of Nova
> Roma is disnonest.
> I am asking because some citizens are uneasy about
> taxiation because
> of problems they have observed in thier Macro
> Nation, and I'm hoping
> that the answers to these questions will set thier
> minds at ease and
> make it easier for Nova Roma to implement the tax
> system she needs.
>
> Vale
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:44:09 +0200 (CEST)

Salvete, romani quirites; et salve, Iasone Serene.

--- Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@--------> escribi�: >
Greetings all,

----------(skipped)----------------

> Harold Bailey, in the "Hidden Meaning of Words," notes
> that the "ak" sound clearly denotes power and control
> for the the Entire Indo-European language group.
>
> Act, Axe, Facses (fak-says), magistrate, akhnaton,
> allahu akbar, iuppiter maximus, magnanimus...(in the
> latin there appears to have been a labial drift which
> attaches the "m" sound in front of the power "ak, ag,
> ax")...achaea, chaos, agammemnon, aleskander,
> pontifex, attack, and so on...
>

Great piece of writing. But I'd like to correct you, if I may. Both
"akhnaton" (Egyptian) and "Allahu akbar" (Arab) are not Indo-European
words. Sorry.

> For the last two millenia, we have believed mighty
> differently from our Roman forebears. We have
> believed, and sometimes practiced, this notion of
> absolute parity amongst persons. Christianty
> proclaimed that God controlled everything, that no man
> acted without God dealing out the card first. As this
> became accepted as a Truth men began to question the
> relations of men, and especially the order of rank.
> This, of course, has happened over centuries of time.
> If god is the only master, goes the question, then
> what business does the magistrate, the patrician, the
> pontifex, the senator, the king have to rule my life?

Well, I think that, during the European Middle Ages, the belief in one
God did not precisely instill the sense of equality you talk about.
Neither did it among the Hebrews, or in the Islam. Besides, some
Indo-European polytheistic cultures (such as the Vikings, the Greeks,
or the Romans) did have a much more "modern" approach to equality than
most of monotheists had till not long ago.

Haven't you ever heard about the "divine right" to rule? It used to be
a very common way of thinking amongst monotheistic cultures. Basically,
the King was king because Yahveh, Allah or whoever had chosen him to be
so.

>
> No way buddy, goes the answer, of course played out
> over the millenia.
>
> Enter at the very cusp of this modern experiment in
> Christendom and its evil son, Corporate
> Feudalism...enter a tiny proto-corporate entity which
> calls itself Nova Roma.
>
> We have five millenia of recorded history to
> reference. Our spiritual forebears were as syncretic
> a bunch as the species has ever known. Is it possible
> to hallow patronage without repeating the abuses of
> the past? Is it possible to weave it into the
> structure of Nova Roma whilst still recognizing the
> last 2k years?
>
> Who knows. Let's just remember what era it hails
> from, an era where the order of rank, of power and
> auctoritas (there's that sound again) and obedience to
> one's betters was the Rule.
>
> Caling it a mentoring relationship doesn't change what
> some people want to do with it. Ambition knowns no
> exclusive epoch. Ambition killed Prima Roma. It has
> turned the second Rome (the Vatican) into to
> antithesis of its stated intent. Will it cripple
> Tertia Roma (Nova Roma) before it ever learns to walk?
>
> Ambition, like authority and intrusion, will pursue
> any avenue open to it. Legislation rarely throttles
> ambition, it just paves its way and clarifies its
> options.
>
> Ambition, as our Roman ancestors recognized, isn't
> necessarily bad, and is generally a fruitful human
> behavior, when men can interact face to face, read
> expression, oppose and support. In a venue as
> secretive and obstructive of scrutiny as the Internet,
> ambition is easily persuaded to pursue its ends
> without restraint.
>
> All this verbosity for what?
>
> Do we really want to establish, at this time, a
> classic and classical relationship which recognizes
> betters and lessers, in an environment which allows
> for no social restraint, within an already (purposely)
> oligarchical organization? Does anyone think this
> won't absolutely be abused?
>
>
> Sorry for all the words, but i wanted to lead up to
> that point, whilst mocking my own erudtion be opening
> myself up to a thousand (welcome) attacks by several
> hundred persons whose given names I do not know...

Once again, we seem to be missing the point. I think that a recreation
of the original patronage is neither desired nor possible (unless you
are ready to mantain me economically as your client ;-) ). I think that
what we should be talking about is a "mentor/apprentice" relationship,
based on trust and friendship. If we feel the urge to regulate this
relationship in some way, let's do it. But let's not miss the whole
point and imagine things that aren't really there.

No offence meant to anyone, of course :-).

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: A Boy Named Sue
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 20:08:33 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@-------->
wrote:
> Salve L. Sicinius,
>
> Please accept my apologies for not responding
> immediately; I am still collating my reply. I should
> have it to you by Sunday evening (EST) if that is
> acceptable to you.
>
> Iasonvs Serenvs

Salve Iasonvs Serenvs,

There is no need of an apology. Sunday will be fine. Thank you for
your assistance, and please thank your mother for me.

L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Budget
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 20:33:04 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, jmath669642reng@w... wrote:
> Citizen of Nova Roma;
>
> In regard to a budget for the present year (2001--you may translate that
> to the NR year as yu wish) a Budget was submitted to the Senate by
> myself and Senator / Quaestor Cassia. It was my understanding that this
> Budget was approved by the Senate.
>
> The Budget was issued to the Senate in December vs. November of last
> year and this one month differece was cleared by Edict of the then
> Senior Consul Q Fabius Maximus.
>
> If the 2001 Budget is not placed in the NR files where it is supposed to
> be, then I ask the Honored Consuls to determine the reason why and to
> appoint someone to locate the 2001 budget records and place them
> properly.
>
> I applaud Citizen Lucius Sicinius Drusus' research, but I can assure him
> that such a 2001 NR Budget, as I have mentioned, was completed by myself
> and Senator Cassia, and submitted to the Senate last year.
>
> Respectfully;
> Marcus Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
>
> http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Salve Marcus Audens,

The 2001 Budget was left out of the Aerarium Saturni but it has since
been updated. Any Citizen may see our current budget at

http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/budget2754c.html

My main concern now is that in the future the Budgets and the
Quarterly reports be made avaible on a more formal basis. We need a
lex covering the avaibility of these finical statements to insure that
any concerns that citizens may have regarding how thier tax money is
being spent (Should the Senate impose taxes).

Right now I'm waiting for some information regarding the New Hampshire
laws regarding NPCs. Once I get that I'll post my sugestions for a lex
that both complies with the New Hampshire laws (As Nova Roma is
required to do by Macro National law) and that insures that the Nova
Roman Government retains the trust that will be needed to insure the
citizens support any decession the Senate may make regarding taxes.

Vale,
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Oath of office
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?titus=20curius?= <t_curius_d@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 23:04:41 +0200 (CEST)

Salve

I, Titus Curius Dannicus (Henrik Thaarup) do hereby
solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and
to act always in the best interests of the people and
the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Titus Curius Dannicus
(Henrik Thaarup) swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses
of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman
Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Titus Curius Dannicus (Henrik Thaarup) swear to
uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State
Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way
that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Titus Curius Dannicus (Henrik Thaarup) swear to
protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Titus Curius Dannicus (Henrik Thaarup) further
swear to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities
of the offices of Legatus Regionis Danicae as well as
Praefectus Sermonis Thules, to the best of my
abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the
presence of the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people
and by their will and favor, do I accept the position
of Legatus Regionis Danicae and Praefectus Sermonis
Thules and all the rights, privileges, obligations,
and responsibilities attendant thereto.

Vale, respectfully

Titus Curius Dannicus
Paterfamilias for the gens of Curia
Legatus Regionis Danicae
Praefectus Sermonis Thules

______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
F� en gratis @yahoo.dk-adresse p� http://mail.yahoo.dk

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:18:16 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@--------> wrote:
> Salvete Pompeia et Quiritibus;
>
> First of all, let me say that I can fully understand why yourself,
> L. Sicinus and others would wish to question such a practice.
> After all, it is new and as Procopi has stated -was reviewed publicly
> in a mixed light at best.
>
> I won't presuppose to speak for Tribune Sertorius; but as to
> the general issue of clientage itself - I would humbly remind
everyone that
> there
> was *no* obligation on *anyone's* part to reveal *anything.* It was
> done as a test, to see how it would be received, especially since
some of us
> who were practicing this relationship felt that it was best to test
> the waters of disclosure.
>

As far as a "legal" obligation to disclose this relationship, no there
is no lex that requires this, and passing one would be a waste of time
since it would be unenforcable. However I hold that all officals of
Nova Roma have a moral obligation to let thier fellow citizens know
that this contraversial relationship exists.

> Secondly, in response to L. Sicinus' point regarding voting
implications;
> I would agree on his specific point that it would have indeed influenced
> the minds of some, or perhaps many voters. Since we are still very
> much in the 'definitional' stages of the Respublica, it's practices and
> institutions; it could *also* be called unfair to bias the voters' minds
> against someone who has declared a relationship publicly. This is what
> very well would have happened had Tribune Sertorius announced in
> mid-election. (Or prior to the election for that matter.)
>

Why do you assume it would only have had a negative impact on the
voters? There is a considerable number of citizens who view your
Patron in a favorable light (Or he wouldn't have been elected Censor),
and knowledge of this could have persuded them to cast thier ballots
for his client.

> Per point one,
> reaction is *still* very mixed in such an early phase of discussion
> and would have just presented a tangential issue for public focus,
> instead of the core issues and worthiness of the candidate itself.
> As it was, the reason the race was so close was due to the sheer
> excellence of the candidates and the fact that the voters were able
> to judge the men on their own merits as opposed to their associations.
>
> Lastly, has been well stated by others recently, we are absolutely not
> discussing oath of fealty situations, or any similar arrangement. The
> type of relationship being practiced was announced openly and
forthrightly.
> As to whether or not this should be a component of future elections;
then
> I can only say -maybe yes, and maybe no -but personally, I feel that
> there are too many components of the issue to be fully addressed prior
> to advocating that anyone else step forward to say anything.
>
> My suggestion would be to discuss the issue further, to discuss
*exactly*
> what we all mean by such a relationship, define the common terminology
> and see how our Tribune does in his tenure of office. (Which will be a
> drastically shortened year anyways.) Since this is a test case, perhaps
> we can see how it goes, discuss it further and *then* make our
> determinations
> as to what should be done in the future.
>
> Bene valete,
> Oppius

I'm glad that this is comming out in the open. There is NO dishonor in
being a Client, either in the Current usage as a mentor relationship,
or in the Ancient meaning of the term, and I look forward to the day
when those who enter this relationship will proudly make an
annoucement on the list that they have done so. When Patrons will step
forward and say "I Recomend that you vote for my Client" That will not
happen as long as this relationship remains hidden in the shadows.
Those who fear abuses are mistaken. Keeping the C/P relationship
hidden increases the likelyhood of abuse, while an openly practiced
C/P relationship that everyone knows about is less likely to be abused.

I also warn you. In Antiquita a Patron's Dignitas was enhanced by his
Clients good performance in office, while a poor showing by a Client
decreased his Dignitas. There are many in Nova Roma who will judge
your Patron by your performance and it will have an effect on his
Dignitas. As for the fairness of this, that is beside the point. It
WILL happen.

Vale
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Questions on the excellent new coins!
From:	"J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 18:30:40 -0400

pvitruviusiulianus@-------- wrote:

> The coins a very beautiful, but there are some questions I have about
> some of the images and words on them:
>
> -What does "Iom" (below the figure but above concordia) mean?

Iuppiter Optimus Maximus
This is a common abbreviation...one sees this carved on stonework (altars,
etc.) too. Commonly in Brittania, methinks.
oh, salvete omnes! Fulvia here!

> -What does "Abquitas" (to the side of the figure surrounded by Nova
> Roma and Concordia) mean?

Looked in my Latin dictionary, no "abquitas", no "ab quitas", no "ab qui
tas". Marcus Cassius?

> -What is the figure (Inbetween civilitas, abqvitas, concordia, and
> Nova Roma)?

Got me. Marcus Cassius?
Fulvia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Questions on the excellent new coins!
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 18:26:07 -0400

Salve: I believe the figure is the God Iuppiter, holding a staff
representing perhaps authority, and in his other hand I think is the goddess
Victory. I hope ABQVITAS is actually AEQVITAS, meaning uniformity, fair
dealing, equity, calmness of mind. Perhaps in the scan the "E" came across
as a "B". I hope there was no error when they were made.
Vale, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, ... Rogator ( I
am ordering quite a few. They're beautiful.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Questions on the excellent new coins!

>
>
> pvitruviusiulianus@-------- wrote:
>
> > The coins a very beautiful, but there are some questions I have about
> > some of the images and words on them:
> >
> > -What does "Iom" (below the figure but above concordia) mean?
>
> Iuppiter Optimus Maximus
> This is a common abbreviation...one sees this carved on stonework (altars,
> etc.) too. Commonly in Brittania, methinks.
> oh, salvete omnes! Fulvia here!
>
> > -What does "Abquitas" (to the side of the figure surrounded by Nova
> > Roma and Concordia) mean?
>
> Looked in my Latin dictionary, no "abquitas", no "ab quitas", no "ab qui
> tas". Marcus Cassius?
>
> > -What is the figure (Inbetween civilitas, abqvitas, concordia, and
> > Nova Roma)?
>
> Got me. Marcus Cassius?
> Fulvia
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: European meeting
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:40:00 +0200

Salve Honorable Legatus and Procurator Sextus Apollonius Draco and
Honorable Gnaeus Salix Astur!

Meeting are supposed to be organized by the Aedils.

>> I wanted to talk with you somewhat further on the possibility of a
>> European meeting.
>>
>> First thing we have to set is a date. I think somewhere in the early
>> summer vacation might not be a bad idea. How about July?
>
>I think that, wherever we made it, we could get much more assistance if
>we do it during the summer. And we have several months to planify.

>I guess I'll be busy this summer (I am actually applying for a summer
>job to several corporations), but I could try to be off a couple of
>days. And, even if I couldn't go, I'd be very happy just to help you
>and others to organize it.

I know that I can't go this summer, but maybe others can.

>> Second thing would be a place. I liked the suggestion of K�ln; it's
>> pretty central in Europe. It's a far travel for Italian or Spanish
>> cives, but so it is for Scandinavian cives. If we'd have a meeting in
>> southern France the latter ones wouldn't even show up because of the
>> distance. Before the Exodus of March there had been talks about a
>> meeting in Trieste or Vienna in the last weekend of May, but I don't
>> know if that's still a living plan, or if it died along with their
>> planners.
>>
>I knew you would prefer K�ln to southern France. My suggsetion of
>meeting in southwestern France was a little joke. It supposed to mean:
>"why don't we do it here at my home so I don't have to move? :-)".
>I have not heard about a meeting in May, though. But, as you know, I've
>been a civis for a short period of time ;-). Maybe we should ask other
>more experienced cives on this matter.

K�ln would be OK, but not this summer. I think that You must get some
Aedils to start the thing. We have two in Europe, Curule Aedile Titus
Sertorius Albinus (England) and Plebeian Aedile Marcus Apollonius
Formosanus (Poland), let's ask them!

>> Third thing, is the appointment of people who coordinate the event.
>> The travel from a given country to that spot is in the hands of the
>> respective provincial staffs, but if it is going to be a meeting
>> that's longer than one day (which is very likely) we'll need a hotel
>> (or a camping), and arrangements of visits to Roman sites and diverse
>> Musea. The Propraetor of Germania could do this, as K�ln is a German
>> city; however, I don't know how far he lives from that place. I would
>> appreciate his comment on this, too (that's why I CC'd this to him).

The Propraetor of Germania could do this, but the Aedils should be responsible.

>I'll CC'd my response back to him. I'll also send it to NRHispania
>(just in case anyone has a good idea). I'll also forward it to every
>European provincial list (at least, to everyone I can find).
>
>>
>> Fourtht issue: how to contact citizens. Propraetores have the right
>> to get the list of email addresses from their citizens, but the
>> Censoriate has not fulfilled that request from Gallia so far, even
>> though we asked it FOUR times. <sigh> Does Hispania have a
>> Propraetor?

There is a List for the Govenors, we will investigate this issue.
>
>Unfortunately, we don't. Seems like no eligible candidate is willing to
>accept the honour (that's the only explanation I can think of). I would
>like to do the work myself, but I don't fulfill the requirements. I
>would make a call to Salix Davianus (who presented an unsuccessful
>candidature to the post) to join me in doing the work WITHOUT the
>honours and benefits of the rank, but I don't know if he'll accept
>(please let me know if you do, Daviane).

I think Honorable Claudius Salix Davianus will have to wait to get
appointed. He will fullfil the requirements somewhere in November? Yes I
think You should try to cooperate to get the provincia going. Honorable
Lucius Minicius Laietanus seems to have been ther for some time (with a
photo). Honorable Marcus Salix Vigilius seems to have been there even
longer. I could have missed someone, but make call for these, maybe they
show up? Otyherwise, in the fullness of time go for it yourself, You know
You would get my support!

>BTW, I've just read about Roman activities held yearly in the Spanish
>city of M�rida (Roman Emerita Augusta). They make classic theatre
>performances in the Roman amphytheatrum, and many reenactors assist (a
>kind of "Roman Days", but with quite a lot of public). I would suggest
>that Nova Roma made a formal petition of cooperation to the organizing
>groups, although I haven't found out who they are, yet. I will keep you
>all informed.
>
>P.D.: I've tried to look for all European provincial lists, but
>www.yahoogroups.com is not working correctly (it won't perform the
>required search). Could you please forward this message to them later?
>Thank you.

Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
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************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
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************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
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************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
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************************************************
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Questions on the excellent new coins!
From:	"J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 19:09:16 -0400

"A. Cato" wrote:
Ave M. Cato!

> Salve: I believe the figure is the God Iuppiter, holding a staff representing
> perhaps authority,

Actually, Jupiter's (and Zeus') oaken staff usually has a lotiform or
three-pronged (bronze / yellow metal) finial, which is one half of a keraunos,
or divine thunderbolt. The oak is, of course, the Lightning Tree. We see this
staff/scepter a lot on Roman coins...not only in the Jupiter Enthroned version,
but also Jupiter Charioteer, Jupiter standing, etc. The staff is indeed a badge
of authority...as is the modern royal scepter. The finial representing the
god's thunderbolt gives this rod especial significance. I'm glad that it's done
right on the coin!

> and in his other hand I think is the goddess Victory.

Jupiter (and before him, Zeus), could have an empty outstretched hand, an
outstretched hand with a small winged Victory standing on it (and usually facing
the god), or an outstretched hand with an eagle perched on it. The eagle was
the messenger of the god in that it would retrieve the essence of a thrown
thunderbolt from the world of humans, and fly it instantly back to the
thunder/sky god, here, Jupiter. We also see the eagle perched on the
thunderbolt (many military standards have this...you know, the ones with banners
or insignia on poles? In those versions, the thunderbolt is reduced to a core
(frequently spiralled like a narwhal's horn); in crude versions it looks as if
the eagle were sitting on a loaf of French bread!

> I hope ABQVITAS is actually AEQVITAS, meaning uniformity, fair dealing,
> equity, calmness of mind. Perhaps in the scan the "E" came across as a "B". I
> hope there was no error when they were made.

I'm too lazy to go look at my own coins...suspect you're right.
Vale,
S. Ambrosia Fulvia

ps, if you want references to any of the coins or standards, just let me know!

>
> Vale, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, ... Rogator ( I
> am ordering quite a few. They're beautiful.)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 6:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Questions on the excellent new coins!
>
> >
> >
> > pvitruviusiulianus@-------- wrote:
> >
> > > The coins a very beautiful, but there are some questions I have about
> > > some of the images and words on them:
> > >
> > > -What does "Iom" (below the figure but above concordia) mean?
> >
> > Iuppiter Optimus Maximus
> > This is a common abbreviation...one sees this carved on stonework (altars,
> > etc.) too. Commonly in Brittania, methinks.
> > oh, salvete omnes! Fulvia here!
> >
> > > -What does "Abquitas" (to the side of the figure surrounded by Nova
> > > Roma and Concordia) mean?
> >
> > Looked in my Latin dictionary, no "abquitas", no "ab quitas", no "ab qui
> > tas". Marcus Cassius?
> >
> > > -What is the figure (Inbetween civilitas, abqvitas, concordia, and
> > > Nova Roma)?
> >
> > Got me. Marcus Cassius?
> > Fulvia
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 16:04:55 -0700

Salve L. Sicini;

Gratias for taking the time to send such an erudite
reply. It is nice to be able to discuss this issues with
cives such as yourself that use more than sheer opinion
to make a point.

A few additional comments below:
-----Original Message-----
From: lsicinius@-------- [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 2:18 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship

--- In novaroma@--------, "Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@--------> wrote:
<snipped>
L. Sicinius writes:
As far as a "legal" obligation to disclose this relationship, no there
is no lex that requires this, and passing one would be a waste of time
since it would be unenforcable. However I hold that all officals of
Nova Roma have a moral obligation to let thier fellow citizens know
that this contraversial relationship exists.

OFS: To clarify my previous point, the sense of *no obligation* I was
referring to was the global sense. Though on a personal level, I fully
agree with you that in the long run, it should be considered a 'moral
obligation'
for our candidates to be forthright in any disclosure that could foreseeably
affect their ability to execute the duties of their office in a timely, fair
and efficient manner. Hopefully, in the fullness of time and after some
additional discussion, that the cives that agree or disagree with certain
practices
in Nova Roma will encourage absolute honesty from all their candidates
and that in turn, these candidates will feel such obligation to the voters
to act accordingly. I maintain that this particular instance was different,
due to its 'test case' nature, but can certainly respect how you might feel
differently.

In my case for instance, such a declaration has
been made and stands clearly in the Nova Roma archives if at any such
time in the future I decide to stand for office.

<snipped>

L.Sicinus writes:
Why do you assume it would only have had a negative impact on the
voters?

OFS: For the record, it was not intended or stated as being a fact
of assumption, only another way of looking at the situation.

L. Sicinus writes:
There is a considerable number of citizens who view your
Patron in a favorable light (Or he wouldn't have been elected Censor),
and knowledge of this could have persuded them to cast thier ballots
for his client.

OFS: This is indeed true and a good point -per above, I was seeking
to explain another very valid point of view, but it was not a statement
of fact or of outright assumption. As for Sulla -you are indeed correct; he
has a great many supporters. In fact, if this election had been before
the Centuriata; I'd likely be even more inclined to fully side with
your view in this particular case. However, as we have seen -Plebeian
participation is abysmal; there were only about 75 valid votes cast.
Additionally, many of the Plebs that are actually active in the Respublica,
made vehement statements against the practice. So I submit, that
the issue has still some further discussion to process before we as
a people state that individuals have obligations in these matters.
Though again -personally, I am in favor of candidate disclosure.

I think also, you bring up a point here that requires additional
discussion as to just *what* do we expect in the way of disclosure
from our candidates? We've seen that there are those that feel
that a client/patron relationship should be revealed. What other
things should be revealed? -This is not meant as a sarcastic
rhetorical question; it is intended as a point of further discussion.
As I'm sure we've all experienced in our various macronational elections;
disclosure issues are always somewhere to be found. That being said,
maybe we can see if there's some consensus of opinion as to what
we *all* want to see from our candidates.

<snipped>

L. Sicinius writes:
I'm glad that this is comming out in the open. There is NO dishonor in
being a Client, either in the Current usage as a mentor relationship,
or in the Ancient meaning of the term, and I look forward to the day
when those who enter this relationship will proudly make an
annoucement on the list that they have done so.

OFS: Here we are in complete agreement; I very much favor honoring
Roma's institutions as closely as possible (alas, a subject for another
post) and as a voter myself, would value seeing our future candidates
follow our collective wishes in as much as it is possible to do so.

L. Sicinius writes:
When Patrons will step
forward and say "I Recomend that you vote for my Client" That will not
happen as long as this relationship remains hidden in the shadows.
Those who fear abuses are mistaken. Keeping the C/P relationship
hidden increases the likelyhood of abuse, while an openly practiced
C/P relationship that everyone knows about is less likely to be abused.

OFS: I couldn't agree more.

L. Sicinius writes:
I also warn you. In Antiquita a Patron's Dignitas was enhanced by his
Clients good performance in office, while a poor showing by a Client
decreased his Dignitas. There are many in Nova Roma who will judge
your Patron by your performance and it will have an effect on his
Dignitas. As for the fairness of this, that is beside the point. It
WILL happen.

OFS: Warning taken, L. Sicinus. It is in fact one of the potential
'downsides,' should
a client and/or patron act against the public interest. If abuses happen, it
can be
outright political suicide for not just one, but all parties involved. Since
we do not know
each other personally, I can but state that for the record and anyone who
chooses
to believe it, that I have every absolute intention of honoring my Patron;
but more
importantly, my first obligations will always be to my family and
Respublica.

If ever I felt that the relationship with my Patronus was against the best
interests of the
Respublica in any way, the welfare of the Respublica would win that battle
for me.
That being said; I am of firm belief that Censor Sulla has nothing but the
best
interests of the Respublica at heart -first and foremost always, regardless
of whether
or not each individual civis agrees with him 100% of the time or not.

Bene vale,
Oppius

<snipped>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: European meeting
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 01:21:25 +0200 (CEST)

Salvete, romani quirites; et salve, Caeso Fabi Quintillane.

--- Christer Edling <tjalens.h@--------> escribi�: > Salve Honorable
Legatus and Procurator Sextus Apollonius Draco and
> Honorable Gnaeus Salix Astur!
>
> Meeting are supposed to be organized by the Aedils.
>

I therefore beg the two European aediles mentioned below (Hon. Titus
Sertorius Albinus and Marcus Apollonius Formosanus) to express their
thoughts on this subject.

>
> >> I wanted to talk with you somewhat further on the possibility of a
> >> European meeting.
> >>
> >> First thing we have to set is a date. I think somewhere in the
> early
> >> summer vacation might not be a bad idea. How about July?
> >
> >I think that, wherever we made it, we could get much more assistance
> if
> >we do it during the summer. And we have several months to planify.
>
> >I guess I'll be busy this summer (I am actually applying for a
> summer
> >job to several corporations), but I could try to be off a couple of
> >days. And, even if I couldn't go, I'd be very happy just to help you
> >and others to organize it.
>
> I know that I can't go this summer, but maybe others can.
>
> >> Second thing would be a place. I liked the suggestion of K�ln;
> it's
> >> pretty central in Europe. It's a far travel for Italian or Spanish
> >> cives, but so it is for Scandinavian cives. If we'd have a meeting
> in
> >> southern France the latter ones wouldn't even show up because of
> the
> >> distance. Before the Exodus of March there had been talks about a
> >> meeting in Trieste or Vienna in the last weekend of May, but I
> don't
> >> know if that's still a living plan, or if it died along with their
> >> planners.
> >>
> >I knew you would prefer K�ln to southern France. My suggsetion of
> >meeting in southwestern France was a little joke. It supposed to
> mean:
> >"why don't we do it here at my home so I don't have to move? :-)".
> >I have not heard about a meeting in May, though. But, as you know,
> I've
> >been a civis for a short period of time ;-). Maybe we should ask
> other
> >more experienced cives on this matter.
>
> K�ln would be OK, but not this summer. I think that You must get some
> Aedils to start the thing. We have two in Europe, Curule Aedile Titus
> Sertorius Albinus (England) and Plebeian Aedile Marcus Apollonius
> Formosanus (Poland), let's ask them!
>
> >> Third thing, is the appointment of people who coordinate the
> event.
> >> The travel from a given country to that spot is in the hands of
> the
> >> respective provincial staffs, but if it is going to be a meeting
> >> that's longer than one day (which is very likely) we'll need a
> hotel
> >> (or a camping), and arrangements of visits to Roman sites and
> diverse
> >> Musea. The Propraetor of Germania could do this, as K�ln is a
> German
> >> city; however, I don't know how far he lives from that place. I
> would
> >> appreciate his comment on this, too (that's why I CC'd this to
> him).
>
> The Propraetor of Germania could do this, but the Aedils should be
> responsible.
>
> >I'll CC'd my response back to him. I'll also send it to NRHispania
> >(just in case anyone has a good idea). I'll also forward it to every
> >European provincial list (at least, to everyone I can find).
> >
> >>
> >> Fourtht issue: how to contact citizens. Propraetores have the
> right
> >> to get the list of email addresses from their citizens, but the
> >> Censoriate has not fulfilled that request from Gallia so far, even
> >> though we asked it FOUR times. <sigh> Does Hispania have a
> >> Propraetor?
>
> There is a List for the Govenors, we will investigate this issue.
> >
> >Unfortunately, we don't. Seems like no eligible candidate is willing
> to
> >accept the honour (that's the only explanation I can think of). I
> would
> >like to do the work myself, but I don't fulfill the requirements. I
> >would make a call to Salix Davianus (who presented an unsuccessful
> >candidature to the post) to join me in doing the work WITHOUT the
> >honours and benefits of the rank, but I don't know if he'll accept
> >(please let me know if you do, Daviane).
>
> I think Honorable Claudius Salix Davianus will have to wait to get
> appointed. He will fullfil the requirements somewhere in November?
> Yes I
> think You should try to cooperate to get the provincia going.
> Honorable
> Lucius Minicius Laietanus seems to have been ther for some time (with
> a
> photo). Honorable Marcus Salix Vigilius seems to have been there even
> longer. I could have missed someone, but make call for these, maybe
> they
> show up? Otyherwise, in the fullness of time go for it yourself, You
> know
> You would get my support!
>
> >BTW, I've just read about Roman activities held yearly in the
> Spanish
> >city of M�rida (Roman Emerita Augusta). They make classic theatre
> >performances in the Roman amphytheatrum, and many reenactors assist
> (a
> >kind of "Roman Days", but with quite a lot of public). I would
> suggest
> >that Nova Roma made a formal petition of cooperation to the
> organizing
> >groups, although I haven't found out who they are, yet. I will keep
> you
> >all informed.
> >
> >P.D.: I've tried to look for all European provincial lists, but
> >www.yahoogroups.com is not working correctly (it won't perform the
> >required search). Could you please forward this message to them
> later?
> >Thank you.
>
>
>
> Vale
>
> Christer Edling
> alias
> Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> Quaestor of Nova Roma
> Propraetor of Thule
> Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus
>
> The Opinions expressed are my own,
> and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
> ************************************************
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> ************************************************
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> ************************************************
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> ************************************************
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> Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
> ************************************************
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>

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

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