Subject:	[novaroma] Oath of Office
From:	britil@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:29:19 -0000

I, (Brian Tillery) Marcus Flavius do hereby solemnly swear to uphold
the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of
the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, (Brian Tillery) Marcus Flavius swear
to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to
pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.
I, (Brian Tillery) Marcus Flavius swear to uphold and defend the
Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to
act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.
I, _(Brian Tillery) Marcus Flavius swear to protect and defend the
Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, (Brian Tillery) Marcus Flavius further swear to fulfill the
obligations and responsibilities of the office of _Legatus of the
Territory of Oklahoma within America Austroccidentalis to the best of
my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the position of_Legatus of the Territory of Oklahoma
within America Austroccidentalis and all the rights, privileges,
obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

Vale, respectfully

Marcus Flavius
Legatus of Oklahoma Territory within America Austroccidentalis






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Subject:	[novaroma] Suggestion to all cives of Nova Roma
From:	pvitruviusiulianus@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 22:03:13 -0000

Once the coins are available I think it would be profitable for Nova
Roma if citizens were to make donations or pay for fees/taxes/goods
in sestertii. This could be quite profitable for Nova Roma. First
money would be gained from the sale of coins, then the paying for
something and finally a third time by selling the coins again where
the cycle would begin once more! Please reply with your thoughts on
this!

Cum gratia,

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,
Civis Novae Romae





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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Questions on the excellent new coins!
From:	pvitruviusiulianus@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 23:33:44 -0000

Thank you for clearing it up. I have taken a closer look at the scan
and it seems that it is an "E" but it is shaped in such a way that in
the scan, and maybe even the coin, it could be easily mistaken for
a "B":

EEEEEEEE
E E
E E
E
E E
E E
EEEEEEEE
E E
E E
E
E E
E E
EEEEEEEE

Cum magna gratia,

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.





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Subject:	[novaroma] Edictum VII about the Approved Regula (Charter) for the Administration of =?iso-8859-1?Q?Thule=DF?=
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 02:08:57 +0200

Ex Officio Propraetoris Thulae

Edictum Propraetoricium VII
about the Approved Regula (Charter) for the Administration of Thule

I. For administrative purposes the Provincia of Thule will be divided into
four Regiones, and in the future one more may be added, namely Regio
Islandica, which must be approved of by the Senate though. Each Regio will
be assigned a Legatus, who will deal with the day-to-day operations of
their Regiones. Please see below for information on each of the Regiones,
including the responsibilities of the Legati, and precise geographical
borders. The details of the administrative system by which the Provincia
will adopt may also be viewed.

The Provincia of Thule will be divided, for administrative purposes, into
four Regiones:

1. Regio Danica (Denmark), 3 civi

2. Regio Finnica (Finland), 2 civi

3. Regio Norvegica (Norway), 1 cives

4. Regio Suecica (Sweden), 6 civi (of these one lives in USA at times)

A Legatus will be assigned to each Regio, and is responsible for the
day-to-day administration of thier Regio, whilst the Propraetor oversees
the administration of the Provincia as a whole. This document gives precise
details of the administrative structure to be used in Thule, under four
main headings: A. Governor for Thule (excerpt from The Constitution of Nova
Thule V. C.) B. Regio, Legati Title, and Area; C. Administrative
Infrastructure; and D. Duties and Responsibilities for the Legati and other
officials of Thule.

A. Governor for Thule (excerpt from The Constitution of Nova Thule V. C.)

"The Senate may, by Senatus Consultum, create provincia for administrative
purposes and to appoint provincial governors therefore. The Senate may
review each governor on a yearly basis and it remains in the discretion of
the Senate whether or not to prorogue such governors. These governors may
have assistants to handle the disbursements of any funds that might come
from the central government, as well as to manage any local funds.

1. Governors shall have the following honours, powers, and obligations:

a. To hold imperium and have the honor of being preceeded by six lictors
solely within the jurisdiction of their provincia;
b. To proclaim those edicta (edicts) necessary to engage in those tasks
which advance the mission and function of Nova Roma solely within the
jurisdiction of their provincia (such edicts being binding upon themselves
as well as others);
c. To manage the day-to-day organization and administration of their provincia;
d. To appoint legati (legates) to administer sub-divisions of their
province with all of the authority of the governor and to remove the same
as they see fit;
e. To appoint scribae (clerks) to assist with administrative and other
tasks, as the governor shall see fit.

2. The titles for provincial governors are as follow:
a. Those currently serving as consuls or praetors shall go by their normal
title;
b. Consuls serving as governors whose term in office as consul has expired,
yet who are continuing in their role as governor, shall be called
proconsuls;
c. Praetors serving as governors whose term in office as praetor has
expired, yet who are continuing in their role as governor, as well as those
citizens whom the Senate shall appoint who are not currently serving as
consul or praetor shall be called propraetors."

B. Regio, Legati Title, and Area.

1. DANICA

Legatus Regionis Danicae, (Legate of the Danish Region)
Area = equivalent to Denmark.

2. FINNICA

Legatus Regionis Finnicae, (Legate of the Finnish Region)
Area = equivalent to Finland and Ĺland.

3. NORVEGICA

Legatus Regionis Norvegicae, (Legate of the Norweigian Region)
Area = equivalent to Norway.

4. SUECICA

Legatus Regionis Suecicae, (Legate of the Swedish Region)
Area = equivalent to Sweden.

C. Administrative Infrastructure

1. The Legati Thules must provide the Propraetor Thules with the standard
contact information (e-mail address, (snail) mail address and telephone
number). This information about the cives of each Regio shall be requested
by the Legati for their Regio on a quarterly basis from the Censores and
forwarded to the Propraetor Thules. The Propraetor will keep records of
these details, and ensure that all Legati know how to contact the
Propraetor, the other Legati and all cives. The primary method of
administrative communication will be via e-mail, with mail and telephone
being used when e-mail is not available.

2. The names of the Legati Thules will be displayed, with their locations,
on the Thule website, with links to their e-mail addresses. Prospective
citizens will be encouraged to contact the Legatus for their Regio as a
line of first enquiry. There will be separate pages on the Thule website
for each Regio. Legati are also encouraged to establish web sites for their
Regiones, which will then be linked to the Thule website.

3. The Propraetor of Thule will appoint Legati, whose positions will be
reaffirmed each year on the first of January, by the Propraetor, if the
Propraetor so decides. When a legateship becomes open, the Praetor shall
invite all citizens in the relevant Regio to put themselves forward as
candidates for office. All citizens residing within that Regio shall be
eligible to stand for such office. The choice of Legatus shall be at the
Propraetor's discretion, to be determined by any means deemed appropriate.
If the Propraetor deems it appropriate, he will wait to appoint a Legatus
for a Regio until he finds a suitable person to appoint as Legatus for that
Regio.

4. The Propraetor can appoint Prolegati (Provisional Legati on Trial) for a
period of not more than four months for Regiones without a regular Legatus.
Prolegati fill all the functions of regular Legati. All Prolegati can be
appointed or dismissed at any time by the Propraetor Thules.

5. The Propraetor Thules shall at all times retain the right of veto over
all actions of the Legati.

6. All Legati shall retain the right to resign from their positions at any
time, without penalty, provided they provide a reason for their resignation.

D. Duties and Responsibilities for the Legati and other officials of Thule

1. The Legati Thules will establish and maintain personal contacts as far,
as is possible with the citizens resident in the Regio for which they are
responsible. The Legati shall act as a point of first contact and enquiry
for interested prospective citizens, and are asked to offer advice to such
prospective citizens concerning application for Nova Roman citizenship,
information, etc. The Legati shall also act as a point of first contact for
existing citizens, to whom they are also asked to offer advice relating to
any aspect of Nova Roma to the best of their abilities.

2. The Legati
2.1. are encouraged to correspond regularly with the Propraetor Thules,
reporting new developments or events in their Regios, and asking advice
where necessary.
2.2. shall also actively seek advice and direction from the Provinica
Propraetor.
2.3. shall be prepared to assist the Propraetor in any projects that are
undertaken concerning Thule.
2.4. are to ensure a minimum degree of communication
2.5. are required to present reports on their Regiones to the Propraetor
twice yearly, on or close before the 31 November and 30 May. These reports
may be brief, but should outline, to the best of the Legatus' knowledge:
A. the current population of his or her Regio.
B. the events, which have been held in connection with Nova Roma
during the past six months in his or

her Regio
C. the plan for the next six months
D. any further information, which the Legatus may deem useful or
necessary.
2.6. who fail to produce such reports within one month of the expected date
(31 November and 30 May), without good reason or prior explanation or
passivity in the leadership of his/her Regio may dismissed as a Legatus by
the Propraetor.

3. The Legati Thules are encouraged to participate in further activities to
promote Nova Roma and the Provincia. Legati will make contacts with local
institutions in order to facilitate the exchange of information.

4. The Legati Thules shall take care of the day-to-day administration of
the Regiones for which they are responsible, but they shall remain at all
times subordinate, and answerable to the Propraetor Thules. If at any time
the Propraetor has cause to believe that an individual Legatus is failing
to fulfil his or her duties to a reasonable standard, or indulging in
activities which are illegal under the law in each Nordic (Thule) country
(Regio), the Propraetor will contact the Legatus to be warned of the
possible consequences of such action, and ask for an improvement in
standards. If no, or an inadequate response, is forthcoming, the Propraetor
may dismiss the Legatus, and arrange for the appointment of a new Legatus
as a replacement.

5. The Propraetor Thules may appoint one Senior Legatus, this could be an
separate position or held together with one of the Legatus Regionis
positions. The Senior Legatus shall function as Deputy to the Propraetor
when so ordered by the Propraetor Thules. The Propraetor shall publish an
edictum for each occasion that the Senior Legatus shall function as his
Deputy. The Edictum shall include directives for the assignment including
time for the assignment and the actual task. The Senior Legati can also be
assigned special missions, aside the assignments as Deputy, by the
Propraetor Thules. These missions and the duration of them will be
specified in Propraetorian edicts. The appointment and dismissal of the
Senior Legatus shall follow the same rules as for the other Legati.

6. The Propraetor may appoint a "Consilium Provinciale Thules" (The
Provincial Council of Thule) to advice the Propraetor, who shall act as
Chairman and call the Consilium to order. The Consilium shall consider only
those issues put forward to it by the Propraetor Thules; the Consilium can
not in itself put issues on the agenda, although its members can make such
suggestion personally to the Propraetor. The Propraetor shall act as
Secterarius for the Consilium and keep the minutes. The Propraetor can, as
he wishes, decide to not follow the counsel of the Consilium Provinciale
Thules. Members will be all Legates and Prolegates, including the Senior
Legatus. The Propraetor will also be able to call other cives to sit in the
Consilium, these members will be called "Consiliarius" or "Consiliaria".
Consiliarii can be appointed or dismissed at any time by the Propraetor
Thules. The Consiliarii normally sits for the same period as the Legati.
The Consilium will not function to exclude cives, but to unite the
provincial leadership so that it in its turn can function as a center for
all communication, work and contact within the Provincia.

7. The Propraetor Thules shall appoint a "Praeco Aranei Thules" (Provincial
webmaster, Crier of the Web of Thule) for the homepage for Provincia Thule
and a "Praefectus Sermonis Thules" (Provincial List Moderator, Head of
Speech of Thule) to arrange for the administration of the Thule e-mail
list. The Praeco Aranei Thules and the Praefectus Sermonis Thules can be
appointed or dismissed at any time by the Propraetor Thules.

8. The leadership (the Consilium) of the Provincia, shall work together to
make Nova Roma and Thule strong in all possible ways: Roman Religio,
personal meetings, seminars/conferences, financial work, other work within
Nova Roma and so on. The Propraetor shall, as the Provincia get enough
enthusiastic cives, appoint "Procuratores" for each of these activities.
For now the Propraetor will act as Procurator Aerarium (Provincial
Quaestor), until such time as this position can be filled by a willing
civis. The Propraetor shall also appoint one position to deal with external
contacts (external contacts with universities, museums, schools, mass media
and other interesting organisations), who will be called "Legatus ad Res
Externas" (Legate for External Affairs), who also will have to keep in
touch with the Sodalitas Egressus. All Procuratores and the Legatus ad Res
Externas can be appointed or dismissed at any time by the Propraetor Thules.

9. The Propraetor Thules shall appoint a Legatus Militum (Military Tribune)
who is responsible for all contacts with re-enactment Legions and showing
Roman military uniforms and weapon on Roman days and the like. The Legatus
Militia also is responsible for all military studies of the Roman army and
navy, within Provincia Thule. The Propraetor Thules may appoint a young man
or woman to the position of Contubernalis Provincia (Provinsial Adjutant),
the personal military assistant to the Propraetor. The Legatus Militum and
the Contubernalis Provincia can be appointed or dismissed at any time by
the Propraetor Thules.

10. The Propraetor Thules may appoint magistrates, to administer the
Provincial Nova Roman populations of individual towns or areas. This will
soon be regulated by Nova Roma Roma legislation, and then the Propraetor
Thules will complement this edict on this issue.

11. Until such time as the Constitutional provisions regarding the
administration of Provincia are changed the following officials will been
seen as ordinari Legati according to the Constitution of Nova Roma:
1. Senior Legatus 2. Prolegati 3. The Consiliarii.

12. Until such time as the Constitutional provisions regarding the
administration of Provincia are changed the following officials will been
seen as ordinari Scribae according to the Constitution of Nova Roma:
1. The Praeco Aranei Thules 2. The Praefectus Sermonis Thules. 3. Legatus
ad Res Externas 4. Procuratores
5. Legatus Militum 6. Contubernalis Provincia.

13. The Legates, Scribae and other officials constitute the Cohors
Propraetoris (the staff of the Propraetor) and the Propraetorium is the HQ,
Residens and Captal of the Propraetor.

14. Candidates for the office of Legatus and other officials of Thule
should be aware that participation in rites pertaining to the Religio
Romana (the pagan state religion of Nova Roma) might be required of them in
the course of their duties. Should such participation cause difficulties
for prospective officials, they are advised not to apply for the post.

15. All officials in Provincia Thule are asked to, within one week for the
appointment date, swear the public oath shown on
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/lex99191002.html, using both their Nova
Roman name and within parenthesis their macroworld (real) name. Observe
that the Oath of must include all appointed positions of each cives. The
Oath must be published on the NovaRomaThule List and the Nova Roma Roma
Main List!

II. This edictum becomes effective immediately.

Given April 15th, in the year of the consulship of Flavius Vedius
Germanicus and Marcus Cassius Iulianus, 2754 AUC.

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Propraetor Thules

Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Subject:	[novaroma] Edictum VIII about the Approved Plan for Activities for the organisation of THule 2754 - 2756
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 02:12:24 +0200

Ex Officio Propraetoris Thulae

Edictum Propraetoricium VIII
about the Approved Plan for Activities for the organisation of Thule 2754 -
2756

I. Due to the size of this undertaking to organise Thule, the plan will be
phased in order to progress forward incrementally during more than 2 and a
half years. In this section the activities that will be undertaken during
this whole period of organisation will be shown. These activities do not
constitute all we will attempt, and any further input from citizens is
strongly encouraged.

1. Although the Internet holds Nova Roma together as an international
community, we believe that it is also important to organise face-to-face
formal and informal gatherings at the local level. Where members will be
able to meet each other, and share their enthusiasm for Roman culture.
2. We have found that not all Roman lovers want to be part of Nova Roma, so
we will try to gather those who have an overall interest in Old Rome. From
this group we intend to cultivate future citizens. Since we are
predominately an Internet organisation, and rely on this medium for the
communication of information, we should try to find citizens with this in
mind.
3. We should concentrate our efforts in our Home locations, as this makes
all logistics easier. Being very busy on many fronts, things move slowly,
but progress will move steadily forward! What follows is a short list of
the areas we are currently concentrating on. These are some activities that
will be moved forward to further Nova Roman culture in Thule, and
facilitate organisation.

A. Web Site for Thule
We will start by saying we are not web wizards, but we are capable and
willing to learn. It will hopefully develop into a site that will act as a
conduit for all individuals and institutions in Thule to reach the
individuals and institutions in our Provincia. We want as many people to
visit the Thule website as possible, so we plan to have some interesting
attractions set up on the site. Another important part of the website will
be a Links Page between the institutions in Thule and those of Nova Roma.
It is hoped that this Link Page will be a valuable resource in facilitating
the spread of Roman Culture. We plan to compile a contact links list to
include the following institutions; Universities; Museums; High Schools;
The Arts Community; The Military; Law Enforcement; Government; Colleges;
Fire Dept.; Clubs; The Ethnic Community; Shut Ins and the Disabled;
Seniors; etc., etc. We believe that this contact list will be a powerful
weapon the use to further the interests of Thule, and Nova Roma.

We will be very proactive citizens for Nova Roma and ensure information is
pushed in both directions. We will maintain a list of citizens in Thule
(following any privacy laws in Nova Roma) and details such the citizens of
our Provincia wish to share. There will be separate Pages or sites for each
of the four Regiones of Thule, and maybe, in the future, a Page for
establishment of a new Re-enactment Legio.

B. Recruitment
Once it has been determined which organisations will be the most fruitful
to approach, we will begin recruitment. Presenting our micro-nation, and
what we have to offer to prospective citizens. We think that once it
becomes known what Nova Roma is about, we will see a dramatic raise in
applications for citizenship here in Thule. Our goals for actual numbers
are to have 20 citizens for the entire Provincia by the end of 2001. We
intend to operate the Provincia on a Jan.-to-Jan. schedule, the same as in
Nova Roma. For the period of Jan 2002 to Jan 2003, we hope to have 32
citizens. We are going to try to reach the general public with the media.
We are interested in what is happening in the Universities. We believe this
to be an area where our Provincia can expand. We will try to contact a
group in one of the universities in each Regio to see if someone will be
willing to participate in this. The Recruitment plan we have been working
on will be as dynamic as our fertile imaginations can make it. This will be
necessary in order to capture the minds of prospective citizens.

C. Finances
As we are starting the Provincia administration from scratch, all areas of
finance must be organised. We will start by making a budget for Jan.
2001-Jan. 2002, and submit it to the Senate as was requested of all the
Provinciae this last fall. We will then continue by establishing a bank
account for Thule before the end of 2001, which will be used as our main
treasury. For now the Propraetor will act as Procurator Aerarium, until
such time as a more suitable candidate can fill this position. It is
assumed that the Provincia will run in the red until our finances right
themselves. There is also the important question of taxes for Nova Roma,
and, should taxes become a reality, then we will have to follow any
procedures given to the Provincia. The Propraetor will be to issuing
various Edicta, depending on any rules and regulations that we may have to
follow concerning our organisation. We will maybe register Thule as a
non-profit organisation, and once this is done we may apply for a Lotteries
License. We than hope to hold fundraising events, and hope to be able to
accept tax-deductible donations. Then we will put together a proposal for
Thule that will be used to apply for any government cultural grants
available, and more importantly for Corporate grants. We also plan to, in
the future, hold various fundraising events such as Toga Parties where we
hope to have Gladiatorial combats as a draw. The fundraising is mainly for
the payment of taxes, projects, communications, and advertisement.

D. Infrastructure for Thule
The plan we have for the Infrastructure of Thule will be used in order to
make the administration fill out, and to facilitate the Provincia
operations. As the State is planning to organise a judicial system, we
believe it will not be necessary to establish dual institutions for
internal Provincia adjudication. The Propraetor has the power of Imperium
within the Provincia to make any internal rulings needed. We would like it
to be known that this Activities Plan is necessary in order to be able to
properly absorb the new members into Thule, and to ensure that both the
citizen and Nova Roma benefit the most from interaction. I truly believe
that Thule will have a population of more than thirty citizens for the
period of Jan. 2002 and Jan. 2003. These numbers are achievable with the
proper diligence and planning.

E. Spread of Nova Roman Culture
In order to spread Nova Roman culture, it is believed that the creation of
various small groups will be of great importance. These organisations are
designed to attract Rome-lovers, who will be approached for Nova Roman
citizenship. Our hope is that persons interested will also want to be part
of our Republic. It is hoped that these groups will help to hold our
Provincia closer together by drawing out and expanding on the individual
citizens' interests.

F. The Grand opening of the Provincia of Thule
We are planning to have our Grand opening in July 2001, but we intend to
phase our Provincia Plan, and phase one for all projects will hopefully be
completed by July 2001, which is when we plan to have a Grand Opening for
the Provincia of Thule. At this time the entire completed and tested
Website will be up and running, ready for exploration. This site will be
approx. 10 MB of internal files, not counting external links, so it will be
large. It is hoped that there will be many visitors to our Grand Opening.

This brings to a close this plan for Provinicia Thule. We will continue to
work with vigilance, ensuring the emergence of a well balanced and Ruled
Provincia. We understand things take time, but we will continue to work for
what we feel is required. We have planed for this slowness, and have in
fact made it a positive aspect by making our plans push along steadily.
There is no looking back now for Thule and we fully intend to make this
Provincia a powerhouse.

II. This edictum becomes effective immediately.

Given April 15th, in the year of the consulship of Flavius Vedius
Germanicus and Marcus Cassius Iulianus, 2754 AUC.

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Propraetor Thules

Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Subject:	[novaroma] Report about the state of the Provincia Thule
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 02:14:24 +0200

Ex Officio Propraetoris Thulae

Renuntatio Propraetoricium I
about the state of the Provincia Thule

15 April 2001
From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, Propraetor Thules

Salve All!

This is a report from the Provincia to the citizens of Thule. This report
will address the present state of our Provincia, and what actions will be
taken to organise it.

First, the state of the Provincia: Thule is one of the oldest and largest
Provinciae of Nova Roma, and has a small but growing Nova Roman population,
which is currently unorganised. The Provincia is located in the northern
part of Europe, and has a non- Nova Roman population of about 24.000.000.
There are twelve citizens located all across the Provincia, divided into
eight Gentes. They are:

Gens Curia located in Regio Danica and Regio Finnica, 4 members,
Paterfamilias Titus Curius Dannicus

Gens Fabia located in Regio Suecica, 1 member, (Paterfamilias Quintus
Fabius Maximus in California)

Gens Fennia located in Regio Finnica, 1 member, Paterfamilias Iulius
Fennicus Angelos

Gens Galiciana located in Regio Suecica, 1 member, Paterfamilias Artus
Galicianus Jacobus

Gens Hadriana located in Regio Suecica, 2 members, Paterfamilias Magnus
Hadrianus Ingmarius Cogitatus Thuleus

Gens Minucia located in Regio Suecicae, 1 member, (Paterfamilias Marcus
Minucius Audens in Nova Britannia)

Gens Octavia located in Regio Suecica , 1 member, (Paterfamilias Marcus
Octavius Germanicus in Lacus Magnus)

Gens Rubellius located in Regio Norvegica, 1 member, Paterfamilias Gaius
Rubellius Rufus

I will have to organize the Provincia from scratch. As there is no more to
report on the present organisation of Thule, I will now move on to what
actions will be taken to organise the administration our Provincia. When I
started organising I discovered that there was no formal Provincial
Administration for Thule. I then studied Nova Roma and found that the
Provincia of Canada Occidentalis had a very good administrative
organisation. I modified it to fit Thule, and our new administration system
(Regula) will act as a blue print for future expansion.

I hereby publicly thank the Illustrus Propraetor of Canada Occidentalis,
Tribunus Plebis and Quaestor Quintus Sertorius for letting me use his
document. Thank you, citizens of Nova Roma, for your interest and I hope I
have not wasted your time.

Given April 15th, in the year of the consulship of Flavius Vedius
Germanicus and Marcus Cassius Iulianus, 2754 AUC.

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Propraetor Thules

Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 17:30:59 -0700

Salvete Pompeia Cornelia,

I'm afraid I should have held up the "take this humorously sign". Sorry. I
really like everyone in your Gens that I have had the chance to interact
with. One of my Legates is Cornelian the other a Cornelian "client". I meant
this as a poke in the ribs of my friends and co-workers.

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason
for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
----- Original Message -----
From: <trog99@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 11:22 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship


> ---
> Salve Lucius Marucius Procopious:
>
> Well, as one of "those" Cornelians, I just posted on complete
> disclosure "without prejudice" against those parties concerned. It
> doesn't matter if a candidate is a client of my Pater or Iulius Caesar
> himself. I don't think it should be so private a matter that your
> constituents should not be made aware of the situation.
>
> Keep in mind that I have been in Cornelia for well over a year now; I
> enjoy an excellent relationship with my Paterfamilias. I am speaking
> out of principle, and I stick by my opinion.
>
> Nobody is expecting you to fire your "appointed" (not elected) legate
> (who is a very good man) simply because he patronizes Lucius Cornelius
> Sulla. I am afraid you are reading more into my post than what is
> truly there.
>
> Vale,
> Pompeia Cornelia
>
>
> In novaroma@--------, "Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@h...>
> wrote:
> > Salvete Omnes,
> > I would like to remind everyone that the timing of Quintus Sertorius
> > announcement worked unfairly against him. He is not the only
> official
> > elected without disclosing bonds to a client/patron. Unfortunately,
> he chose
> > to be honest, as others had, at the wrong time. Lest we forget prior
> to this
> > current thread the acceptability of revealing such bonds was
> questionable.
> > He may have been waiting for approval from his Patron to reveal the
> bond.
> > Timing seems to be the real issue here.
> > Should I remove Oppius Flaccus from his legateship now that he has
> revealed
> > his bond to L. Cornelius Sulla? He was not forthcoming at the time
> of his
> > appointment. No! His bond at that time was perceived as private.
> I'll let
> > him keep his job even if he is linked with those Cornelians. :)
> >
> > Lucius Mauricius Procopious
> > Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
> > (This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > procopious@--------
> > ICQ# 83516618
> > *America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
> > http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
> > * The Gens Mauricia
> > http://www.geocities.com/procopious
> >
> > "Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that
> the
> > affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the
> reason
> > for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause
> is easy
> > to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal
> will
> > decide for himself according to his taste."
> > -Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died
> c.560s]
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <trog99@-------->
> > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 10:50 AM
> > Subject: [novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
> >
> >
> > > --- (snipped for brevity)
> > >
> > > Salvete Omnes:
> > >
> > > Without prejudice to those parties concerned , I am in agreement
> with
> > > Lucius Sicinius Drusus: I think, although such a practise could
> never
> > > be successfully legislated, that disclosures of a client/patron
> > > relationship should be made by an electorial candidate at the
> outset
> > > of an election, or atleast during the election, and not afterward.
> It
> > > is a matter of "complete" disclosure. Granted, a candidate may
> not
> > > think this is a matter of importance to his performance in a given
> > > magistracy, but his prospective constituents might have differing
> > > views, and they have a right to know all the facts, in
> consideration
> > > of their voting decisions.
> > >
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > > Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Salvete,
> > > > I see nothing wrong with a mentor/student relationship, nor even
> a
> > > > model that more closely follows that of antiquita as long as it
> made
> > > > clear that some kind of bond exists in the matter of public
> > > officals.
> > > > The actions of private indiviuals aren't my concern.
> > > >
> > > > I started this thread with no more than a request that any
> person
> > > who
> > > > has entered a client/patron relationship make it known as a
> matter
> > > of
> > > > personal honesty.
> > > >
> > > > Lest any mistake my words,
> > > > I have no reason to suspect that Quintus Sertorius and Lucius
> > > > Cornelius Sulla Felix entered into any kind of disreputable
> > > agreement
> > > > and I do NOT accuse them of this. I have no reason to think that
> > > > Quintus Sertorius intends to be a "tame tribune". Any one who
> has
> > > read
> > > > the posts our new Tribune made prior to the election will know
> that
> > > > it's beyond the powers of Lucius Cornelius or any other person
> to
> > > > "tame" Quintus Sertorius. My only problem with the relationship
> is
> > > > that there are some citizens who would have considered this a
> factor
> > > > when deciding how to vote and this relationship should have been
> > > > disclosed prior to the election.
> > > >
> > > > Am I against the Client/Patron relationship? NO. I wish to see a
> > > > modern version of it OPENLY practiced in our Res Publica. Am I
> in
> > > > favor of leges regarding this relationship? NO. I think they
> will be
> > > > unenforcable. Lucius Cornelius mentioned his desire for enacting
> > > some
> > > > leges on this matter in his reply, and I did mention a source
> where
> > > an
> > > > ancient law is mentioned as a source that could be used in a
> debate
> > > on
> > > > what those leges would consist of.
> > > >
> > > > I Am in favor of practicing this tradition openly and honestly,
> and
> > > > think that those who hold office should make this known as a
> matter
> > > of
> > > > personal honesty.
> > > >
> > > > Valete,
> > > > Lucius Sicinius Drusus
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
From:	Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 02:54:33 +0200

Gnaeus Salix Astur wrote:
> --- Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@--------> escribió: >
> > Harold Bailey, in the "Hidden Meaning of Words," notes
> > that the "ak" sound clearly denotes power and control
> > for the the Entire Indo-European language group.
> >
> > Act, Axe, Facses (fak-says), magistrate, akhnaton,
> > allahu akbar, iuppiter maximus, magnanimus...(in the
> > latin there appears to have been a labial drift which
> > attaches the "m" sound in front of the power "ak, ag,
> > ax")...achaea, chaos, agammemnon, aleskander,
> > pontifex, attack, and so on...
> >
>
> Great piece of writing. But I'd like to correct you, if I may. Both
> "akhnaton" (Egyptian) and "Allahu akbar" (Arab) are not Indo-European
> words. Sorry.
((snipped))

Salve, Iasone Serene.

I must ask, what is "facses"? I know of fasces, used by lictors, but I
haven't heard of "facses". I admit, english isn't my native language,
and latin most certainly isn't, so if this is some basic word I lack in
my vocabulary, please feel free to laugh in my face. And where's the
"ak" in chaos? If you're including the "ka"-sound in your text, it would
explain the word "aleskander", whose meaning I've yet to divine. It
sounds close to Alexander, which is indeed a name of power. Pontifex is,
to my knowledge, pronounced "pontif-ex", where we have an "ex"-sound,
yet in this case I would support your thesis.

However, considering the 6 million words making up the english language
alone, I'm pretty sure any given sound could be demonstrated to mean
anything. For help on making this sort of connections, I advise you to
consult "Suppressed Transmission", or it's sequel, "ST 2", by Kenneth
Hite. It also tells you about the interesting fact that Hitler was born
on Black Friday and died on Walpurgisnacht. This is true, yet
considering the number of holidays invented by various religions,
adjusted to the various calendars, it's very hard (read: impossible) to
find a day not connected with some kind of holiday.

The point I'm trying to make is, don't use coincidences to make a point.
Most things can be proven by coincidence, facts and a desire to prove
something. And besides, in what way was that whole "ak"-business
relevant to your main argument, the inherent viciousness of the
client/patron-relationship? First you ramble on about this "ak"-thing,
trying to make it sound evil, then you search for anything even close to
that sound in anything connected to the government and/or legislation of
Nova Roma.

I'll say no more, since I don't really know what else to say. However, I
feel rather strongly on this point, and will gladly make a (however
stupid) point for those with algebraic skills.

a=b <starting equation>
ab=b^2 <when multiplied with b>
ab-a^2=b^2-a^2 <when subtracting a^2>
a(b-a)=(b+a)(b-a) <rewritten>
a=b+a <when divided by (b-a)>
a=2a <since a=b>
1=2 <when divided by a>

Thus, with a true premise, through valid operations, I arrive at an
obviously false conclusion. How come? I lose track of the big picture,
concentrating on the details. When dividing with (b-a), I divide by
zero, since b=a. Division by zero is, in mathematics, a Bad Thing. Let's
try your reasoning:

client/patron=inequality
inequality=power over peers
power over peers=corruption
corruption=Bad Thing

Ok, I agree with the first and last, yet I fail how to see how the basic
inequality in a patron/client-relationship leads to corruption. Granted,
the relationship could quite possibly be abused this way, through the
patron leading the client to share his views and values, yet as long as
we don't walk the path of Roma Antiqua, obligating the client to vote as
his patron desires, he still makes the final decision himself. Unless
the patron deliberately lies to his client, the client will still
receive a view, however biased, upon which to make a decision of his
own. Trying to persuade others to share your opinions is legal in most
modern countries, practiced by parents around the world, shaping their
offspring in their own image. Would you deny parents the right to share
their opinions with their children, since the children should be
presented with an unbiased view of the world? I'm not sure if you've
considered the consequences of your statement.

And yes, all power in a non-utopian setting leads to corruption, yet it
must exist for any semblance of society. To win something, you must risk
something. "No pain, no gain", I think the american expression would be.

Obviously, we don't share the same opinion regarding this matter. I'm
sorry if my somewhat harsh language in this mail causes you undue
stress, yet I've only previously heard similar reasoning employed in
roleplaying games, and the thought of anyone considering our beloved Res
Publica being an elaborate RPG sort of set me off. I'm sure this most
definitely was not your intention, I'm merely explaining my overly surly
disposition throughout this mail.

Why I am still posting it, if I've realized this wasn't what you meant?
I just spent too much time writing my angry retort for me to want to
waste it...:)

And yes, all power in a non-utopian setting leads to corruption, yet it
must exist for any semblance of society. To win something, you must risk
something. "No pain, no gain", I think the american expression would be.

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consilarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

((PLEASE NOTE: Though I use my titles, this mail is in no way an
official document of any of my current positions. If it was, it would
currently be residing in my "trashcan".))

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation




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Subject:	[novaroma] Home again/many thanks!
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:20:30 -0400

Salve,

I have returned home at long last from the hospital and was floored to see
such a tremendous outpouring of love and good wishes from the people here.
It is truly touching and makes the homecoming all the sweeter.

I also wish to publicly thank my dedicated scribes who have so aptly handled
things in my absence. I thank them in advance for continuing to do so as
the next few weeks see myself and Juliana Vedia settle into our new lives
here at home.

Good night and.........again........many thanks to all.

:) Vale,

Priscilla Vedia Serena




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
From:	mansker@--------
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 01:40:47 -0000

>
> Ok, I agree with the first and last, yet I fail how to see how the
basic
> inequality in a patron/client-relationship leads to corruption.
Granted,
> the relationship could quite possibly be abused this way, through
the
> patron leading the client to share his views and values, yet as
long as
> we don't walk the path of Roma Antiqua, obligating the client to
vote as
> his patron desires, he still makes the final decision himself.
Unless
> the patron deliberately lies to his client, the client will still
> receive a view, however biased, upon which to make a decision of his
> own. Trying to persuade others to share your opinions is legal in
most
> modern countries, practiced by parents around the world, shaping
their
> offspring in their own image. Would you deny parents the right to
share
> their opinions with their children, since the children should be
> presented with an unbiased view of the world? I'm not sure if you've
> considered the consequences of your statement.
>
I would like to add my thoughts to this debate.

As noted in the above paragraph, parents share their opinions with
their children. As Nova Roma is set up, all of us belong to a gens,
which becomes our "Family".

I know, at least in my gens, that we discuss and share ideas with one
another regarding political and socio-economic opinions, and talk
about a number of things, amongst them the elections.

Does this make us client/patrons? No. It does, however, fit some of
the definitions of clients and patrons, as we discuss and argue whom
and what to vote for. Does my pater tell me where to vote? No. But
he does, as my pater, let me know what he thinks about the different
issues and tells me his thoughts on the edicts and elections.

The idea that a new person, who needs assistance, could establish a
relationship with an older member, who is willing to give that
assistance, does not constitue corrupt behaviour anymore than joining
a gens does. When joining a gens, you are given assistance by other
older and hopefully wiser members. You are helped in making
decisions on a number of things, and are told about the more common
arguements/ideas/issues of the day. A client/patron relationship
would constitute the same thing.

The idea that a patrons dignitas is directly affected by how is
client does is no different on a pater's dignitas being affected by
what a member of his gens does.

I have read (exhaustively) all of the posts on this subject, and
would like to just advance the idea that we are all clients/patrons
in NovaRoma to a greater or lessor degree.

Any other thoughts on this? I would welcome additional comments,
either posted here or in my e-mail.

Thank you,

Gaia Flacca Severa





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Subject:	[novaroma] On Following the Backside of Another
From:	iasonvs_serenvs@--------
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 02:06:39 -0000

Salvete Omnes,

Would you know that I wrote nearly half of the following post (of
course in a better form that survived in my feeble memory) before a
thoughtless finger sent into the ether for all irretrievable eternity?

Let me see if I can reconstruct it...

In reconsidering my last post, I realized that I am an inestimable
buffoon, which is a good thing, as I am thus prevented for believing
myself to be a a better man than I am...

Let me, then, restate.

All human groups are subject to corruption. All human systems of
relations deteriorate over time. What enables corruption to
understood as corruption is the context in which it is viewed. A
naked woman, for example, in the midst of a cackle of Calvinist
ministers might serve merely as an annoyance. Being Calvinists, and
members of the Elect, they are already certain of their souls, and
can go about life unbothered by the vagaries of a delicious fate, or
a nasty one, for that matter. The same equally naked woman, standing
rather innocently at the center of a cheating husband's recovery
group is another matter entirely.

I believe that the trick to understanding what factors are corrosive
to an organization's interractions and operations is understanding
the avenues of its communication and control. A corrosive influence
is information which congests, decays or destroys the very channel
which carries it. A virus, from the perspective of the host, is
corrosive information, especially if it is a succesful virus.

All human groups have a structure of command and communication,
though it operates generally at a greater magnitude than one mere
person can observe. The internet community is only a community
because of computers, fiber optics and the rules that govern their
usage. Information follows that paths that suit it, or are available
to it. Those paths, if you will, may be cables, wires, blood
vessels, data streams, or roadways.

Let us continue this exercise using roads as a example. Most of us
are likely more familiar with the uses of roads than we are with some
of the theories and laws which attempt to explain and govern the
transfer of data packets.

Let's say that I am comfortably reclining in my little family mazda,
blithely barreling down the highway at a reasonable eighty miles per
hour, when suddenly the car in front of me slams his damnable foot
against the brake pedal, turns his car 180 degrees and makes for me
as if I were some phantom through which he may plunge with impunity.
Besides being a but of a rat bastard, he has placed us both in
immediate danger of ending our mortal existences. Or have I?

Here is where the understaning comes into play. To understand this
situation, we must first understand the rules which govern the
transfer of data (the cars) along its pathway (the road). As we have
it here in the States, cars traveling on one side of the road must
travel in the same direction. I hear that you Canadiennes do it
differently north of the border, which is why there are so few of
you...

The jerk in front of me has changed direction. Have we both been
travelling in the right direction? If so, then he has now violated
the accepted means of communication and/or control. If not, we must
assume that we both, at some time, were in violation of the rules of
the road, that he has righted the situation, whilst I have not.

How do we know which side of the road to drive on in the first
place? Precedent, tradition, law - in short rules agreed to or
forced upon us. As long as most people use one side of the road to
travel one direction, and the other side to go in the opposite
direction, we're all relatively free to go about a business.

But what happens if several persons begin to travel about the roads
as they please, going any which way their hearts desire? Accidents,
no? These persons have become corrosive influences with regards to
the use of the roads. At a critical threshold, when the corrosion
outmanifests the cooperation, the system begins to decay, decline, or
crash.

How do we know what, in this case, is a corruption of the system? By
the rules we establish, or accept, to govern the usage of the roads.
These rules are made severally evident by the employment of
education, road signs, and custom. We judge corrosion by the rules
and images we establish to govern our various systems.

Let me extend this just a but further. Let's assume for a moment
that Congress passes a law to the effect that a driver's vehicular
behavior will be governed and judged by the behavior of the persons
immediately in front and behind of them. The justification for this
law rests on the premise that a person should be judged by his
circimstances and environment, not some external and arbitrary
standard which cannot, will not, and does not take into consideration
the conditions of his or her birth, education, lack there of, and,
indeed, they myriads triumphs and defeats of his or her existence.
The nation applauds the wisdom of that august body, and returns to
its business, individual and aggregate.

Soon enough, though, the citizens of this great nation (as well as
many others) begin to question the sanity, and authority, of
legislative branch of government. It seems, according to news
reports, that the roads are a mess. Accidents occur with increasing
regularity. Road fatalities have skyrocketed. Businesses are
failing for lack of goods, and employees, as no one can use the
roads, what for all the wrecked cars and decaying bodies.

People begin to ask why.

The answer lies, now, in rules which have been established to govern
and judge the flow of traffic. Apparently, as reported by the major
netorks, using the person in front of you as the (legal) template for
your automobile operation impairs your ability to asses the greater
environment in which you operate.

The rules have become a corrosive influence on the system they were
intended to guide. A system governed poorly may not be the first to
collapse, but it will be one of the messiest.

Which brings us to Nova Roma, and the several issues now up for
discussion in this most envigorating and refreshing Forum Romanum.

In respect to those persons who took upon themselves the foundation
of this our true res publica, I offer you my gratitude and service.
In appreciation of those who have joined, I offer you my comraderie
and companionship along the way, for what little it is worth.

In respect of those persons who founded Nova Roma, I must offer my
honest ( and limited ) observations, in keeping with the noble Roman
virtues you so rightly support and celebrate.

Nova Roma threatens herself with extinction. The avenues for the
interactions of its members as Members of Nova Roma are in disarray.
The chief instrument of communication (the internet and this list)
are structurally supportive of obfuscation and insult. It is simply
too easy to hide behind our respective terminals, and play at
enlightened and forward thinking Novaromanae, without fear of
effective recourse from those we might attack, insult or work
against. This, incidentally, may not be construed as an advocation
of harmony at all costs. I love debate, competition, opposition,
discord and battle as much as I cherish serenity, calm, reflection
and meditation.

What threatens Nova Roma with its own decay is its very structure,
and, in places, lack thereof.

Although I have only been among you for a short, short time, I have
come to feel more loyalty and affection for the lot of you, than I do
for the rather dreary inhabitants of the sad Northern city in which I
daily find myself. I would like nothing more than to debate these
issues in real and ready forum, to hear Formosanus speak, I hope, as
eloquently as he writes. To see Quintus Fabius Maximus irk his
opponent with a quick jab to the mental eye. To watch Draco and
Procopius and the new Tribune Sertorius have at it without the
anonymity of the internet...

Alas, such is not yet the case...

Nor will we ever have that opportunity until we begin to work
actively towards that end, and end the endless debates about minutae
which are better tabled until such time as we have the luxury of
opportunity.

Opportunity will slip away, and this forum will remain a relic of the
electronic ether, or fade away into deserved obscurity, a laughable,
yet tragically admirable, experiment in marginalization.

To establish now, at the onset, and without physical interaction, a
legal and contractual endorsement of the client-patron relationship
will be disasterous. It will encourage all of the worst behaviors of
Old Rome without any of her manifold benefits. Let any voluntary
arrangements exists and operate as they already do...as voluntary.
Let us actively encourage the publication of these arrangements by
the parties involved, that we may all be aware of the cooperation,
allegiances, and efforts of our fellow citizens towards the end we
all desire, and is so well expressed by Consul Vedius, "Next year in
the Forum..."

In conclusion, let me say that I am ever grateful to all of you that
you take the time to muddle and wade through these numerous
correspondances, to respond, to debate, and to add to the sum of
human experience.

In all Honor to Rome,

Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs Peregrinvs










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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Submission to Erato
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 23:43:38 -0400

Salvete,

Here are three poems that I submit for the festival.

Valete,
Helena Galeria Aureliana

#1
Stardust

The old ones - who childlike created stories to explain the universe -
Thought diamonds fallen stars
We, thinking scientifically,
Find carbon originated from particle clouds
Blown out of stars on a stellar wind
Which permeated our atmosphere
Bringing life's element to earth
>From some far-off sun.
'We're all made of stardust' laughs one astrophysicist,
Glorying in his triumph over ancient wisdom
Who smiles indulgently back

#2
Urban Renewal

As a mist over a ridge
I saw a snowstorm appear,
That soft gray wall a bridge
>From known to unclear,
Until its sweeping rush
Revealed each mote of white
As if the gale blew dust
At my window. Then my sight
Focused on falling crystals,
Bits of transmuting haze,
Eddying in slow spirals
To etch feathers in the glaze
Of snowflakes crushed on glass
Or following the wind around
To frost the grass.
Tiny sparkles mound
Under street lights.

#3
Metamophosis

May breezes full of lilac scents and lark songs
Bring softly swaying life to lilies;
Entice the new-warmed earth to enjoy
An age-old renewal of life from death.

Green vines of forsythia, dew-fresh;
Sweet fragrant honeysuckle, whose horns
Herald the soft season, wake memories
Of old promises, cherished hopes.

This thaw lets bitter thoughts of lost love
Blossom with sweet, tantalizing pain
Tendrils of present emptiness turn
To past pleasures for joy; like pansies

Whose roots feast on ordure, raise up bright
Faerie faces to follow the sun.
Crocus petals uncurl above crypts
Daffodils grow from death and decay.






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Subject:	[novaroma] Budget
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 23:50:00 -0400 (EDT)

Lucius Drusus;

May I respectfully suggest that you put your ideas for a Budget Lex into
a folder, and then write the Lex yourself. As I have said in this forum
on several occasions we have in Nova Roma about 5 times as many
"suggestions" as we have those willing to do something with them.

I have indicated to you that a budget was drawn up for this year. It
was drawn up by myself in the last month of the year. You may remember
at that time I was the Consul, and not a Quaestor. If myself and
Senator Cassia had not done the job, it would not have been done.

As you say, it should have been done earlier, but then there have been
much more important things in this Republic which should have been done
earlier as well. It was not done earlier, and the Senior Consul at the
time issued an Edict to cover the one month lapse. The problem was that
there was no-one else willing to do the job, or knew how to do it,
because I did the Budget in the year before that as well. Now that we
have established that there is a budget for the year 2001, and that it
has been approved by the Senate, and we have your apology for unduly
upsetting some 800 people, and we now know the how of why that situation
arose, we can perhaps take some action to deal wth it.

But wait, we may have already done that, by electing twice the Quaestors
that we have ever had before, by getting the Quaestors together for
discussions concerning financial matters, assigning Quaestors to all
Senior Magistrates, and insuring that both Consuls have Assensi (who are
Quaestors) who will remind them of this need in plenty of time. We
evolve here in Nova Roma, and sometimes we are caught out by
happenstance, the cure for which a Lex is not always the only nor the
best one available.
Yes, Citizen Drusus, we know that the Budget should be drawn up in
November, and when we have someone besides the Consul to do it, I am
sure that it will be done, as we have now, done on time, and submitted
to the Citizens for a vote-- if in fact there are enough Rogators to
have a vote which at that time there were not. However, since that time
we have also doubled the number of Rogators that we may have as well.

Frankly, considering the problems of the moment, at that time, I am not
sure how much good a Lex would have done. However, by all means, should
you wish to write one, I applaud your efforts. I would simply ask you
not to impose your ideas on someone else, and ask them to substitute
your schedule for thier own.

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary




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Subject:	[novaroma] Client/Patron/Mentor,etc. -My final thoughts
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 20:49:04 -0700

Salvete Quiritibus;

Well, the time has come for me to sign off of
the client/patron/mentor issue for now. I think
at least for the moment, that it has been beaten
to death and like some other issues here of late,
we have begun beating on the proverbial dead horse.

For those that are continually on the lookout for
any sign of disagreement, corruption, governmental
perversion and the like -I can but say that we disagree
and just because I'm stepping out of the fray for
now, does not mean I in any way intend to even *imply*
that anyone is being stifled. By all means, please
continue to go ahead and debate away.

To Iasonvs Serenvs, I can only say for now that
your posts are interesting and the references
to Nietzsche, roads, the inevitable corruption
of human groups, etc. are unique. At the end
of these posts, the ultimate result seems to be
of course that you disagree with such an abhorrent
practice as client/patron so your opinion has
been duly noted next to that of Draco and Formosanus.

To Titus Octavius; I appreciate your thoughts
and summation on the matter. You have stated
exactly the intent of what I was originally
discussing in a very apt and succinct manner.
Those that wish to continue to disagree or miss
the point may do so at their own discretion.
Also my appreciation to Propraetors Caeso Fabius
and Procopius for understanding the discussion
as well.

To L. Sicinus and Gnaeus Salix -you both have
been made some excellent points in the discussion.
Though I didn't agree with all of them, many I did -the
arguments were extremely well stated and I immensely
appreciate you both taking the time to comment
in such an erudite manner. Gratias multas. Our
discussions in Nova Roma need no DEMAND such thoughtful
responses and debate on our key issues.

To mi filia and everyone else that has had input
on this, again my many thanks.

I have tired of this issue personally and the
continual write, reply and response mechanism
is keeping me from my other NR and non-NR tasks;
so without further ado I sign off this topic.
I may comment on something related to this again,
but if not please accept my statement here and continue
on about the other discussions.

One final thought, I think some other tangential
issues which really lay at the core of many of the
issues discussed of late should still be
addressed -my thoughts on some of these will be
discussed in an upcoming post.

Bene valete in amicita;
Oppius



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Subject:	[novaroma] Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:52:17 -0700

Salvete Quiritibus;

With all the debate that has occurred recently, I could
not help thinking how relevant these discussions were to
the perpetual issues of reconstruction, what to reconstruct,
how much, antiqua versus modern, etc. We have all always
had differing thoughts on these matters and this has
become yet again strikingly clear in the recent discussions.

I was having an informal chat with a civis whom I admire
a great deal, regarding the issue of 'Rebirth versus
Reconstruction.' As I hadn't personally thought of it
in quite those terms before (my thinking had centered
around varying degrees of reconstruction,) it caused
me to want to think on it a good deal more as to clarify
my own thoughts.

The realization I arrived at is -my 'ideal' tends more
towards a full rebirth of Antiqua. Huge disclaimer: the
following thoughts are mine alone and are not intended
to influence, anger or irritate my fellow cives. Many
will likely disagree with me (as is the way of debate and
discussion here in this forum,) which is completely
fine. For the record, I can but say yet again that
no matter what my personal state of agreement with
anyone is, my concern is for expressed opinions and
debate points -not the individuals themselves.

Back to my point. As mentioned, they crux of so very
many issues here always, *always* comes back to who
favors what level of reconstruction. Recognizing that
none of us as individuals holds the complete answer,
I can but share my opinions.

What are my thoughts? At the base level, quite simply if
I could, I'd quite happily be plunked back in the
height of the empire. Of course, we'd all have our
ideal periods in which to visit, but for me -fire
up the time machine and drop me and the family
off, next stop...Rome. -Not ancient Greece (though
I would certainly visit and bask in the culture
and architecture,) not Byzantium. (oh please!)

So in other words; I cherish
Roma Mater in all the greatest of her glory and
majesty; period. No disclaimers, no exceptions,
no 'but I would like this, but I would not like that.'

This is me, this is my personal vision. Of course,
we have a dramatically different notion going on here
in Nova Roma. -I knew this coming in and I stand by
Nova Roma's stated goals wholeheartedly. Do I expect my 'vision' or wish to be
granted? Of course not. Do
I expect that others will agree to such a strict
construction of empire? Of course not. Do I expect
to maintain a steady state of compromise with those
that favor a much more 'modern' view of Rome?
Absolutely.

Where I'm going is that we're all trying to build a
nation -some of us more 'conservative,' some of us
more 'liberal.' In realizing that my personal vision
may not be achieved, it will not stop me from standing
by Roma Mater, her gods, her wisdom, her virtues and
her very essence. I will always look to create and
maintain as many of Antiqua's traditions as absolutely
possible. -Even if said institutions are largely
in name only, or in a severely altered and watered
down form such as 'client/patron.' (No, I'm not going to
discuss that topic further right now.)

So Quirites, that is where Oppius is coming from. Nothing
up my sleeve, I simply want Roma and as much of her
as possible with all her glorious attributes -"good" and
"bad."

Let's examine the other side of the coin. There is
another group of people that have a vision that is
diametrically opposed to mine. (Again disclaimer, -this
is just a statement of observation and is in *no*
way intended to serve as any statement on my part as to
who is 'right' or 'wrong.' Everyone has a valid
opinion.) This other vision of Roma is something
at its fundamental core -quite different from mine.

At the core of this other vision, is the idea that we have
come a 'long way' as humans, we have evolved to some
higher, conscious state of being, that we know a lot
better than our forefathers did how to live, die and
conduct the business of everyday life. This view 'seems'
to desire to put a heavy face of socialistic ideals
and superimpose onto Roma Mater and come up with
some completely different entity.

(I again invoke my previous disclaimers before moving
on.)

There is of course, a vast 'third' opinion, which is
somewhere in between. Those that like some or maybe
even most of Roma's institutions -but might knock a
couple of items off the list here and there, or add
one or two things. Essentially though, it's still
largely representative of Roma Mater with a bit of
generalized modern touches.

As Nova Roma continues to move forward, forces of
all three schools of thought (as this is my unofficial
classification scheme, please feel free to chime
in with any additional schools of thought that may
exist) will continue to bash into one another. This
is our nature, I've accepted it and as long as a
public forum exists for the sharing of individual
opinion in any manner that the individual deems
fit, dissent of one form another will exist.

I'll further state -dissent is good. Non-personal
argument is healthy, constructive debate especially
on key issues is critical for us. There *also* comes a
time when we need to stop talking and just 'do,'
to paraphrase an excellent statement made recently
in this forum. I couldn't agree more.

For those that disagree with laws and administration,
I might just offer this observation; Leges seem
to be the necessary culmination to many items open
for debate in NR. There comes a time when something physical
needs to be placed in front of someone and at that
time, the individual needs to make some decision based
on that. Then, discussion ends, the voters speak and
we move on to the next thing. Endless discussion, while
being intellectually stimulating to a point, ultimately
results in nothing being accomplished until the
matter comes up for formal vote.

Well, I could go on -but I've gone on now for more
than long enough and don't wish to consume more time
than necessary. Please feel free to comment publicly
or privately on any of the issues raised here and let
me know what you think. Gratias multas if you've made
it this far in the post, you have my sincere gratitude
for giving me your time.

Bene valete in Pace Deorum,
Oppius




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Subject:	[novaroma] Festival Submission
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 22:19:05 -0700

Salvete,
Below is my submission for the festival.
My "Geni Patris Familiaris" was molded from "Oregon Brown" clay and the close-up is of an arrowhead I found on my fathers property as a boy. I seem to remember reading that Roman boys often sought archeological "tokens". It felt appropriate to include it on my Geni Patris Familiaris. Be kind, I'm a brand new sculptor.

http://www.geocities.com/procopious/genpatfamlite.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/procopious/genpatfamdark.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/procopious/touchstone.jpg

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]


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Subject:	[novaroma] Fwd: Re: Festival Submission
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 03:32:50 -0000

>Salve Omnes:

Seeing as just about everyone else has submitted their Cerealis Festival
pieces to the forum, I have decided to do the same.

Bene valete,
Pompeia Cornelia


>
>
>
>
>>THE LIFE OF VIDI
>>>
>>>A White late model V-6 charioteer moves more swiftly than usual past the
>>>last fragments of Roman Civilization before entering the Subura ....past
>>>the Plaza de Pallas by Palladius, past Senator Venator's Fast Foods, past
>>>Clodia's Garum Emporium and Deli, and past a few other unmentionable
>>>places best to just drive past.....and quickly at that.
>>>
>>>Ovidia Cornelia, Private Investigator, was tired after a grueling day and
>>>wanted to get home "soonly", and out of the rat race. After reaching her
>>>modest insula, she parked her car and climbed the three flights of stairs
>>>(she hated elevators), opened her door and entered her
>>>flat........Ahh.....being able to just sit, put her feet up and enjoy the
>>>silence!! She lit an Hispanic El Producto and stuck it between her
>>>teeth. Hades, if the famous movie star Demi Moravia could smoke'em, so
>>>could she. Our private eye puffed away and proceeded to blow
>>>well-confugurated O's into the atmosphere.
>>>
>>>a 38-year-old, rather scrawny, short, redheaded freckle-faced Patrician
>>>from a wealthy family, "Vidi" as you would call her,that is if you didn't
>>>want to risk spending time in the emergency room, spent about 15 years
>>>going from career to career after university. A short stint in the
>>>Military, newspaper writing, fine arts......loved the arts but never
>>>really found her niche. Her paintings showed some promise; her work was
>>>proudly displayed on the walls of her Insula and her office, located just
>>>a few blocks away. (Rent was cheap in the Subura..well, cheapER.) Vidi
>>>eventually concluded that the thing she knew how to do best was to stick
>>>her nose in other peoples' business. And she enjoyed it and was damned
>>>good at it! So, she regarded her present position as the perfect career.
>>>A *calling* of sorts.
>>>
>>>Unfortunately, not all of her family agreed with her. Several of her
>>>sisters were astonished at Vidi's decision to live in the Subbies,
>>>instead of living a "normal" life, with a "normal" career.....Be "normal"
>>>was their unrelenting advice! Well, Vidi had her own piece of advice for
>>>them, which she would liberally spew upon them when they got on her case
>>>too badly. Her mother, while taking a milder tone of thought with Vidi,
>>>was always quietly encouraging her daughter to "come home", up the hill.
>>>Always blamed herself, Prima Cornelia did, for the untameable Vidi and
>>>her "less than savoury" choices.
>>>
>>>Prima Cornelia had a face that would launch a thousand ships. She was no
>>>seawoman, but she had a fleet of beauty salons to her credit and command.
>>> Asthetics Equitiae Corp. was a hair and facial empire in Rome.
>>>
>>>Her father, Lucius Cornelia Sulla Felix IV was a clever businessman. An
>>>omnipresent enterpreneur. A corporate tarantula, one could say. Had his
>>>fingers in every pie...to the extent that when Vidi would send in her
>>>monthly office rent, while muttering or meditating a litany of curses,
>>>she was, unbeknownst to her, paying her very own dear tata.
>>>
>>>Damn good thing Sulla and Prima had successful careers. Both parents
>>>had to roll up their sleeves and work when they had 32 kids.
>>>How did they end up with 32 kids? Well,now there's a long and
>>>intricately convoluted story, ......we just won't *go there* today, OK?
>>>
>>>Vidi didn't see Sulla often. What mattered is they saw eye to eye.
>>>Lucius Cornelius was the only one who didn't rag-a-much on her about her
>>>choices in life. She was happy, and as far as Sulla was concerned, "If
>>>it ain't broken, don't fix it". And, yeah, Vidi was happy. Maybe she
>>>enjoyed doing this kind of work, and maybe she even enjoyed the Subura,
>>>and seeing how the other half lived.
>>>
>>>The coffee table in Vidi's livingroom was covered with various
>>>publications, messily arranged, as was the protocol of the rest of her
>>>place. Clearly, she was not the epitomy of neatness.
>>>
>>>"Ah, haven't read this yet", she thought, picking up the latest edition
>>>of "Populesque Quirites"..... yunno, the paper for "Inquiring Minds that
>>>Need to Know". Vidi found these papers both ludicrous and hillarious.
>>>Perhaps the irony of pure malarky all dressed up to look like truth? Who
>>>knows. Reading away, she shook her head,and howled at the headlines:
>>>
>>>"TALKING CANINE APPLIES TO LATINITAS"
>>>
>>>"Oh, good!!!" Vidi thought.
>>>
>>>"EXCLUSIVE PHOTOS!! NOVA CONSULA SEEN ON CAPRI BEACH *CONSULTING*
>>>ACCENCUS.........."
>>>
>>>Curiosity conquering, Vidi checks out the photos. "That is NOT our
>>>Consula!!! That'll be a law suit for sure!! Sue their butts,
>>>Iulia.......you don't have to put up with that!!!"
>>>
>>>Doubtless this issue would quickly be taken up at the next Roman Stola
>>>Party Meeting!!. They met monthly. Period.
>>>
>>>The next headline hit real close to home, for Vidi:
>>>
>>>"MOTHER CORNELIA OF THE GRACCHI SIGHTED........'CLEAN UP YOUR ACT!' GREAT
>>>MOTHER ADMONISHES!"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Vidi was laughing so hard she started to inhale a few of those O's she
>>>was blowing into the air. After about a minute of profuse hacking and
>>>coughing, she butted the El Producto, abandoned the paper and turned on
>>>the TV. Ahhh, her favourite was on! "JMattius669642". Vidi loved this
>>>show. He was one hardnosed Praetorian for sure. A great cop. Loved the
>>>acting, and the plots were airtight, as she saw'm. WebTV needed new
>>>camera people though.....how could Mattius possibly round a corner in his
>>>cop car at 50-60 miles an hour without even swerving? Well, that wasn't
>>>her problem now, was it? And it wasn't Web TV's problem either, that is
>>>until the ratings started taking a nosedive.
>>>
>>>After an hour or two of tube, it suddenly occurred to the enigmatic
>>>private eye that she had forgotten to check her telephone answering
>>>machine:
>>>
>>>"Hey, Vidi, it's Oppi! I'm flying into Rome next Ides and wondered if we
>>>could do lunch!" Vidi's heart skipped.
>>>
>>>"Oh, Oppi", she thought. "Oppius Flaccus. It's been so long since I
>>>laid eyes on him in person!"
>>>
>>> Oppius was Vidi's school sweetheart, and
>>>whom many had hoped would be Vidi's husband. She briefly wandered down
>>>memory lane, to the time when Oppi was a boy. Two or three times a week
>>>he'd be seen with his father, headed to a small creek near the Flacci
>>>Villa. His father was in law enforcement with the Consul's guard. Oppi
>>>and his tata, carrying their fishing poles, both a wanderin' and a
>>>whistlin'.
>>>
>>>When Oppi and Vidi were teenagers they would meet at Senator Venator's
>>>for hamburgers. They had quite a circle of friends.Ahh, those were Happy
>>>Days. Their praenomens both started with "O", and in some spiritual
>>>circles, this was thought to be a perfect wedding sign. True soulmates.
>>>Unfortunately, the person holding the Gens money purse often ends up
>>>being the family Auger. Enter Aunt Beatrix: for all intents, purposes
>>>and finances the undisputed *head* of the Flacci. She wanted Oppi to
>>>marry Vidi about as badly as she wanted to eat a week old bowl of
>>>polenta.
>>>
>>>Ahh yes, that dreadful exchange between Oppius and Beatrix a few nights
>>>before Oppi's planned engagement to Vidi. Vidi wasn't there, but she of
>>>course heard all about it. She could clearly envision the large,
>>>shrill-voiced, well-jowled women, over enunciating her immortal edictum:
>>>
>>>"Yewwwwwwww will NOT consort with that GodESSSSSSlesssss Tarpeia of Roman
>>>Societyyyyyyyyy........againnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!"
>>>
>>>Aunt Beatrix, it would seem, had completely lost her sense of humour when
>>>it came to the freespirited, sometimes obstinate attitude Vidi had
>>>sported since childhood. Clearly, it could be assumed that the auspices
>>>for marriage were not favourable.
>>>
>>>Ahh Beatrix, Beatrix. Well, the woman was now dead and gone, and in
>>>Vidi's thinking..there was little sense in rehashing the past. The night
>>>Aunt Bea died there was the brightest, fullest moon Vidi had ever seen.
>>>Well, if the shoe fits.... The cause of death, among other ailments:
>>>sheer lunacy.
>>>
>>>
>>> Vidi eventually got over the Oppi thing; she took it hard, but dusted
>>>herself off and moved on. Oppius Flaccus married a "good" girl, Salonina,
>>>a journalist from a well-to-do equestrian family. Actually Vidi had
>>>occasion to correspond with her, while doing newspaper assignments a few
>>>years ago. She seemed very nice, and good for Oppi. And that's what
>>>mattered the most.
>>>
>>>In Roman circles, Oppi needed no introduction. A master at website
>>>communications, he dabbled in that for a while, then landed a couple of
>>>film-making breaks. He graduated to being a multimillionaire motion
>>>picture producer.
>>>
>>>Vidi and Oppi made a pact that they would remain friends. Oppi never
>>>forgot to atleast phone Vidi , although with his work and travel, the
>>>occasion was not often. But to actually do lunch next Ides! "That
>>>just might be worth having my hair done and putting on a stola", Vidi
>>>muttered. She would see. Regardless of her chosen attire, she'd leave
>>>the El Productos at home.
>>>
>>>"Ah, Vidi, hit the hay" she thought to herself. "You've got major stuff
>>>to do tomorrow, girl". Vidi had a "ditty" in court the next morning.
>>>Being a member of the arresting officers' team in a recent drug bust,
>>>she would have to give her report of arrest....ahhh, how she hated that
>>>part of her job. Some judges made the affair easy....some judges would
>>>have a hayday with Ovidia Cornelia. She was hoping she could sleep after
>>>the news of Oppi. Meandering to her bedroom, she donned her sleep duds
>>>and crawled into bed.
>>>
>>>Before cutting the lights she gazed at a picture on her nightstand. The
>>>picture of a redhaired, 40ish woman with spirited countenance. A picture
>>>of her eldest sister Po, now deceased. It was a quasi ritual for Vidi to
>>>say "goodnight" to Po. Although Po never quite understood Vidi in
>>>entirety (who did?) they got on well in life, and Po would never let
>>>anyone pick on Vidi too harshly, family or friends. The doctors told Po
>>>repeatedly that too many late nights, too much travel, too many
>>>reenactment festivals would eventually be the death of her. Sure enough,
>>>one crisp spring morning, they found her at some due in the Media
>>>Atlanticus Provincia, dead as a doornail.........run over by a tour bus.
>>>Well, Po, better days ahead, Vidi reckoned.
>>>
>>>Vidi's eyelids were getting heavy after she entertained the comfort and
>>>warmth of her queensized waterbed. She cut the lights, curled up, and
>>>soon settled into the abyss of deep sleep.
>>>
>>>..............more to come..............
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Gratias
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 11:12:30 +0200

Salvete,

Although things looked grim first for the Cerealia festival, at the end we're having a reasonable amount of submissions, and I just wanted to express my gratitude for everyone who participated.

By the way, today is the last day people can submit their works. Calliope and Apollo still have only one competitor, while Euterpe, Terpsichore, Polyhymnia and Melpomene have had zero submissions so far. Join the competition while you still can, Quirites!

Valete,
Sextus Apollonius Draco,
Coryphaeus Sodalitatis Musarum



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] NOVA ROMA: Capita XIV et XV
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?WWFubiBRdely6Q==?= <yquere@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 14:55:30 +0200

Salve Draco,

I think I missed seceral chapters, being overwhelmed by posts and having to
purge my inbox !!!
Could you please teel me where I can get the whole thing or send me back the
former chapters ?
Thanks in advance

Vale Bene
Lutecio

----- Original Message -----
From: S. Apollonius Draco <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->; Sodalitas Musarum
<ForTheMuses@-------->
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 11:18 AM
Subject: [novaroma] NOVA ROMA: Capita XIV et XV


> Salvete Novaromani,
>
> Here are the new chapters of the NR Mars novel - thanks to Formosanus for
> his accurate corrections on both my English and Latin. Comments and
> suggestions welcome, as always.
>
> These chapters are hereby also submitted under the Collegium of Clio in
the
> Cerealia Festival.
>
>
> XIV. Si vis pacem, para bellum
> ------------------------------------
>
> Draco blinked, then lay wide eyed, staring at the black camouflage plastic
> of a tent. He realized he was alive. Someone must have dragged him into
that
> tent.
> "I'm one lucky bastard," he muttered to himself. He tried to rise, but
> immediately felt a sharp pain in his right leg and his lower back. He fell
> flat, and tried again, this time with more success. He could now see
outside
> of the tent. It was night. A few people were talking to each other. He
could
> recognize them: the typical accent of Curio, the gestures that Peregrinus
> made while talking, Ronanus' rabid grin and Oppius' passionate tone, as
> though the good man was always debating. Draco crawled outside of his
tent.
> A few more tents were visible beyond the light cone around which the
others
> sat. Above the tent camp was a safety shield, which allowed the people
> inside to wear regular clothes.
> "Ah, so the terrible dragon has awoken?" Peregrinus chuckled.
> "Permission to laugh, sir," Curio said.
> "Brat," Peregrinus replied, his initial grin disappearing. Draco found an
> empty spot around the light cone.
> "What has happened, sirs?" he asked numbly.
> "The ship crashed, in case you hadn't noticed," Ronanus spoke.
> "I knew that. But afterwards, sir?"
> "Audens is dead, as is Bicurratus and most of the ship's crew," Oppius
> Flaccus gravely said.
> "Sertorius was wounded, like you, and is resting in one of the tents.
> Lutecio has seemingly disappeared. We were just discussing how we were
going
> to return to any base or city nearby."
> "I see," Draco said, with a deep frown. So, the mysterius civilian,
Lutecio,
> had disappeared. The man must have had a link with the Martianalists.
> "I still think he was spying on us for those blasted Martianalists,"
Ronanus
> said, obviously reprising the discussion thread before Draco's arrival.
> "Impossible. He wasn't wired," Peregrinus replied.
> "How do you know that?" Oppius wanted to know. The military tribune's grin
> reappeared.
> "Audens' orders. This was a small, secret mission. As the computer expert
> aboard, it was my task to search every room for anything suspicious. Too
bad
> I found Curio's secret por-"
> "Allright allright," Oppius intervened, "whether Lutecio was a spy or not
> has nothing to do with out problem. We're in a potentially hazardous
> environment, with only one one-man escape pod from the ship with enough
fuel
> to go to a city in the neighbourhood. Even this light cone could betray us
> to the Martianalists."
> "We're behind the ship's wreckage. That should be enough to cover the
light
> emission with," Ronanus calmly said, "but regarding the escape pod; I'm a
> volunteer to go. I had a little pilot training."
> Oppius, the Phobos military, scraped his throat.
> "So had I, if I may remind you."
> "Let's flip coins then," Ronanus offered.
> "Very well," Oppius agreed, definitely disturbed. He pulled out a coin.
> "Tails," he announced, and then flipped it. Heads. Ronanus grabbed his
gear
> and rose to his feet.
> "I'll tell them to come after you guys," he said, "and I'll fly as fast as
> possible, if those crazy apes out here don't shoot me down."
> "Mars te protegat," the others collectively said. He nodded and
disappeared
> through the double airlocks.
>
> "Terrible news about Aundens and Bicurratus," Draco mumbled.
> "We've offered our prayers to the Gods. May they be dwelling the Elysian
> fields now," Oppius said. A loud cough was suddenly heard from another
tent,
> followed by a mild curse in Latin.
> "I think Sertorius is awake, sir," Curio announced.
> "And you can check on him," Peregrinus ordered. Curio opened his mouth to
> say something but then simply shrugged and opened the tent flap. Sertorius
> came crawling out. He appeared to have incurred a head wound.
> "What happened?" the drill instructor inquired, coughingly dragging
himself
> to the light cone.
> "The ship crashed; Audens and his crew died in the crash, as did
Bicurratus.
> Ronanus has headed for the escape pod to warn a nearby city to pick us up
> from this desert, as our communication devices are broken," Oppius spoke.
> Further conversation became impossible, because of a sudden noise that was
> heard; the noise of the escape pod's engine that was warming up, and
slowly
> lifting itself above the dry red surface of the southern desert. It flew
> over the tent camp and its frail shield, blasting sand and small rocks
> against it. Its bright yellow lights made them bathe in an almost
> preternatural light. Soon enough the pod flew higher above the desert. The
> remaining soldiers followed the craft with their eyes. Suddenly the light
> grew larger again.
> "Why is it coming back?" Sertorius asked, more to himself than anyone else
> in particular. Peregrinus put on his helmet and used his built-in
> binoculars.
> "It. it's flying in attack position!" he shouted, "Get your helmets on."
> Draco and the others grabbed their helmets as quickly as possible, while
the
> sound of the pod came anxiously closer again, and the light made its way
to
> the tent camp. The small craft started spewing bullets, and pierced the
> oxygen bulb. Tents were set on fire. Choked cries in helmets. The light
cone
> shattered.
> Everyone seemed still alive, but the craft was coming back for a second
> round. There was no time to ask why this had happened. Suddenly, when it
> came back again to shoot its deadly fire at the soldiers, two bright
beams,
> of the genre that had taken out the airship, intercepted the pod in
mid-air.
> An explosion followed suit, and the remains came down, burning. The second
> explosion as the debris hit the ground reflected in the dark visors of the
> soldier's helmets.
> "What was that?!" Oppius' voice sounded, panicked.
> "I have no idea," Sertorius replied, sounding even weaker than before. He
> was sitting on the ground next to a burning tent, and looked as though he
> could vomit any moment. Draco didn't feel too well in his stomach either.
> "If he was a spy for the Martianalists, then why would they shoot him down
> like that?" Oppius inquired again. No one answered. Draco was looking for
> Curio.
> "Where's Curio?"
> "Over here," his voice came, very weakly, from the ground. He was lying on
> the ground. He had been shot in his right arm and right leg. So far he
> hadn't had carbondioxide in his suit yet, and it hadn't begun to
> depressurize yet. But Draco knew it would happen any moment. There was
> nothing he could do to save his friend.
> "Gods! No! Is there anything I can do?"
> "I suppose not. Blast, I can't even smoke a last cig, like all heroes do
> when they die," he tried to joke, but it came out rather forced.
> "Stay calm," Peregrinus said, "it's the only solution."
> "Yes. You can't do anything for me other than to leave me before you'll
get
> yourself killed with those mad Martianalists out there. They know we're
> here," Curio said.
> "Leaving you? I think not," Draco decided.
> "You must. Mi Mari, order them to leave me."
> "Leave him, miles Draco. We have to move on." Peregrinus' voice sounded
> broken.
> "And what if I ignore your order?" Draco asked. He realized he had tears
in
> his eyes. Curio's good arm managed to pull out his standard handgun, the
> so-called pilum, a powerful ray gun.
> "Do it, or I'll shoot you right here. For the love of Iuppiter, go away."
> "Ok then." Draco hauled for a deep breath, and suddenly realized they'd
all
> die anyway if they were out here in the desert for more than ten hours
> without an extra oxygen supply.
> "Fare well, amice." Curio lowered his gun.
> "Fare well," he said dryly and weak.
> The party, Oppius and Draco supporting the limping Sertorius, moved on
into
> the nightly desert, where the dangers that awaited them were as numerous
as
> the stars in the sky.
>
>
> XV. Homo homini lupus
> ----------------------------
>
> When they came to arrest him, he was sitting in a roof taberna, quietly
> having breakfast and coffee, reading his newspaper. This was one of the
rare
> moments where Diocletianus could barely contain his anger.
> "There he is," he said to the two Aediles that accompanied him. The other
> guests in the taberna looked disturbed, but also surprised.
> "Salvete gentlemen," the man said, looking up at them from his coffee,
"how
> can I help you?"
> "We came to arrest you," Diocletianus bluntly said, towering over the
small
> white table.
> "Is that so?" the man asked, with a smirk, "then what am I charged with?"
> "Scipio, could you read it aloud please?" Diocletianus asked his first
> Aedilis.
> "You are charged with the murder on Marcus Cassius Iulianus, Gneaus
Moravius
> Piscinus, Quintus Fabius Maximus, Nicolaus Moravius Vado, Natalia Moravia,
> Aletheia Moravia, Marcus Marcius Rex, Livia Marcia Aurelia, Gaius Marcius
> Coriolanus, Caius Aeilius Ericius, disturbing the public order, computer
> hacking, high treason and forgery. You have the right to appeal to an
> advocatus or a Tribunus Plebis."
> "And how about a phonecall?"
> "Listen pal," Diocletianus said, imitating a yankee accent and grabbing
him
> by the toga, "this is not your United States, traitor."
> "Allright allright. You guys are so humourless these days. Wait a second
> gentlemen, as I'm going to finish my coffee first." Before the cup could
> reach his lips, Diocletianus grabbed it from his hands and tossed it over
> the roof.
> "Go get it," he added stridently. Both men looked at each other hatefully,
> and the silence spoke more than words could have.
> The curatrix of the roof taberna came running at the officers.
> "Salve," Diocletianus said, regaining some of his calm.
> "What are you doing here? You're disturbing the order in my restaurant.
Many
> Senatores and other people of good standing come here, you know."
> "I am a Senator, and I'm also a Praetor. I've come to arrest this man. My
> name is Caius Flavius Diocletianus and I came to arrest this man. What is
> your name?"
> "Priscilla Vedia Serena." The second Aedilis, Titus Sertorius Albinus,
> jotted it down on an e-scriba.
> "Then your husband must know me," Diocletianus said, "but anyway, I wanted
> to ask you a couple of questions. Do you have some time?"
> "Actually I haven't," she said, "but I have if you can be quick."
> "Allright then. Does this man come here often?"
> "Yes," Priscilla said, "I surely recognize him. I have no complaints about
> him, though. He can be rude sometimes, but he always pays correctly and
I've
> never seen him disturb order in my taberna."
> "I see. And do you know who he is?"
> "Sir! I never ask for my customers' names, and neither are the personnel
> supposed to." She called for one of her servants: "Appi Tulli, come over
> here."
> Meanwhile the people in the roof taberna had begun gossipping, peeking at
> the officers and their arrestee from time to time. The latter remained
calm,
> looking over the pinkish sky. The servant, Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato,
a
> timid and polite man, strolled over to the curatrix.
> "Yes, how can I help you?" he asked.
> "Do you know the name of this man?" Diocletianus asked the servant.
> "Umm, let me think. No, I don't think he ever told me. Is it important?"
> "It would be if you knew it. If you're truly speaking the truth, then it's
> not important at all. Well, if you don't mind, we're taking this arrestee
> with us. Valete atque gratias ago for your assistance."
> Scipio shackled the arrestee, and obeidiently he followed the officers as
> they left Priscilla's taberna, down the stairways to the praetorial car
that
> waited outside the high, white plastered building.
> "I had expected you sooner," he said.
> "Did you? Well, at least we got to you before the Martianalists did."
> "Am I supposed to be grateful now?"
> "You're not supposed to be anything at all. It's bad that you once
betrayed
> Mars, but now you did it twice," Diocletianus spat.
> "Betrayal exists only in the eyes of the betrayed. Injustice exists only
in
> the minds of the victims. You think I am a criminal because I crossed an
> invisible line drawn in the unlimited sands of time."
> Diocletianus smiled wryly.
> "Typical. The only person who would say such a thing is Gaius Lupinius
> Festus."
>
>
> -------***°O°***-------
>
> look for Caput XVI, where the survivors in the lone desert are faced with
> surrealistic dangers
> look for Caput XVII, where all dirty secrets will become unveiled
>
>
>
>
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>
>




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:07:54 -0700 (PDT)

> Salvete Quiritibus;
>
> With all the debate that has occurred recently, I
> could
> not help thinking how relevant these discussions
> were to
> the perpetual issues of reconstruction, what to
> reconstruct,
> how much, antiqua versus modern, etc. We have all
> always
> had differing thoughts on these matters and this has
> become yet again strikingly clear in the recent
> discussions.
>
> I was having an informal chat with a civis whom I
> admire
> a great deal, regarding the issue of 'Rebirth versus
> Reconstruction.' As I hadn't personally thought of
> it
> in quite those terms before (my thinking had
> centered
> around varying degrees of reconstruction,) it caused
> me to want to think on it a good deal more as to
> clarify
> my own thoughts.
>
> The realization I arrived at is -my 'ideal' tends
> more
> towards a full rebirth of Antiqua. Huge disclaimer:
> the
> following thoughts are mine alone and are not
> intended
> to influence, anger or irritate my fellow cives.
> Many
> will likely disagree with me (as is the way of
> debate and
> discussion here in this forum,) which is completely
> fine. For the record, I can but say yet again that
> no matter what my personal state of agreement with
> anyone is, my concern is for expressed opinions and
> debate points -not the individuals themselves.
>
> Back to my point. As mentioned, they crux of so very
> many issues here always, *always* comes back to who
> favors what level of reconstruction. Recognizing
> that
> none of us as individuals holds the complete answer,
> I can but share my opinions.
>
> What are my thoughts? At the base level, quite
> simply if
> I could, I'd quite happily be plunked back in the
> height of the empire. Of course, we'd all have our
> ideal periods in which to visit, but for me -fire
> up the time machine and drop me and the family
> off, next stop...Rome. -Not ancient Greece (though
> I would certainly visit and bask in the culture
> and architecture,) not Byzantium. (oh please!)
>
> So in other words; I cherish
> Roma Mater in all the greatest of her glory and
> majesty; period. No disclaimers, no exceptions,
> no 'but I would like this, but I would not like
> that.'
>
> This is me, this is my personal vision. Of course,
> we have a dramatically different notion going on
> here
> in Nova Roma. -I knew this coming in and I stand by
> Nova Roma's stated goals wholeheartedly. Do I
> expect my 'vision' or wish to be
> granted? Of course not. Do
> I expect that others will agree to such a strict
> construction of empire? Of course not. Do I expect
> to maintain a steady state of compromise with those
> that favor a much more 'modern' view of Rome?
> Absolutely.
>
> Where I'm going is that we're all trying to build a
> nation -some of us more 'conservative,' some of us
> more 'liberal.' In realizing that my personal vision
> may not be achieved, it will not stop me from
> standing
> by Roma Mater, her gods, her wisdom, her virtues and
> her very essence. I will always look to create and
> maintain as many of Antiqua's traditions as
> absolutely
> possible. -Even if said institutions are largely
> in name only, or in a severely altered and watered
> down form such as 'client/patron.' (No, I'm not
> going to
> discuss that topic further right now.)
>
> So Quirites, that is where Oppius is coming from.
> Nothing
> up my sleeve, I simply want Roma and as much of her
> as possible with all her glorious attributes -"good"
> and
> "bad."
>
> Let's examine the other side of the coin. There is
> another group of people that have a vision that is
> diametrically opposed to mine. (Again disclaimer,
> -this
> is just a statement of observation and is in *no*
> way intended to serve as any statement on my part as
> to
> who is 'right' or 'wrong.' Everyone has a valid
> opinion.) This other vision of Roma is something
> at its fundamental core -quite different from mine.
>
> At the core of this other vision, is the idea that
> we have
> come a 'long way' as humans, we have evolved to some
> higher, conscious state of being, that we know a lot
> better than our forefathers did how to live, die and
> conduct the business of everyday life. This view
> 'seems'
> to desire to put a heavy face of socialistic ideals
> and superimpose onto Roma Mater and come up with
> some completely different entity.
>
> (I again invoke my previous disclaimers before
> moving
> on.)
>
> There is of course, a vast 'third' opinion, which is
> somewhere in between. Those that like some or maybe
> even most of Roma's institutions -but might knock a
> couple of items off the list here and there, or add
> one or two things. Essentially though, it's still
> largely representative of Roma Mater with a bit of
> generalized modern touches.
>
> As Nova Roma continues to move forward, forces of
> all three schools of thought (as this is my
> unofficial
> classification scheme, please feel free to chime
> in with any additional schools of thought that may
> exist) will continue to bash into one another. This
> is our nature, I've accepted it and as long as a
> public forum exists for the sharing of individual
> opinion in any manner that the individual deems
> fit, dissent of one form another will exist.
>
> I'll further state -dissent is good. Non-personal
> argument is healthy, constructive debate especially
> on key issues is critical for us. There *also* comes
> a
> time when we need to stop talking and just 'do,'
> to paraphrase an excellent statement made recently
> in this forum. I couldn't agree more.
>
> For those that disagree with laws and
> administration,
> I might just offer this observation; Leges seem
> to be the necessary culmination to many items open
> for debate in NR. There comes a time when something
> physical
> needs to be placed in front of someone and at that
> time, the individual needs to make some decision
> based
> on that. Then, discussion ends, the voters speak and
> we move on to the next thing. Endless discussion,
> while
> being intellectually stimulating to a point,
> ultimately
> results in nothing being accomplished until the
> matter comes up for formal vote.
>
> Well, I could go on -but I've gone on now for more
> than long enough and don't wish to consume more time
> than necessary. Please feel free to comment publicly
> or privately on any of the issues raised here and
> let
> me know what you think. Gratias multas if you've
> made
> it this far in the post, you have my sincere
> gratitude
> for giving me your time.
>
> Bene valete in Pace Deorum,
> Oppius
>
>

I must say that I nearly completely agree with your
views on rebirth. I would be happier in ancient Rome
than I am here and now. And I think that humans as a
whole (and especially Europeans, from whom I descend)
have gone down hill since the fall of Rome.

However this should not be taken to mean that Roma
Antiqua was perfect. It was very sexist, had little
respect for human life (killing an adult human who has
don something wrong or for the sake of spreading
civilization is fine, killing a baby is wrong), and
was very superstitious. These two things and
technology, however, were the only things which I
believe made Roma imperfect. Some of you may be
thinking that I am leaving some things out which you
think you and I think are also imperfections, to clear
this I will make a list:

-The belief that nature, animals, and such ought to be
tamed are inferior to humans and are here for -human
use.

I agree with this completely. Conservation ought to
be taken only for the sake of human enjoyment and/or
needs. I see no proof that animals and all other life
forms are equal to humans.

Right now I can not, unfortunately, remember the rest
of my list (Sorry :-( ). However, since I expect
debate on this to continue :-), I am certain I will be
reminded of any unclarities I need to clarify. I hope
I have not offended any one, but these are my beliefs.

With appologies,

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:16:08 -0700 (PDT)

An addition to my list:

-Bribery for votes.

If someone is willing to vote for a candidate because
the candidate gives him money, how is it illegitimate?
If someone wishes to stick to his beliefs/principles
they can very well do so. However, this should not be
taken to mean that I endorse things like embezzlement
for funraising, or threatenining a person into voting
for you.

Cum gratia,

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Suggestion to all cives of Nova Roma
From:	markbird@--------
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 11:23:51 -0000

I think conceprtually this is a good idea - but what about overseas
provinces - how would we cater for this - would we post the coins in
etc, or would the Governor of the Province collect these on the
Senates behalf.

Marcus Sentius Claudius

--- In novaroma@--------, pvitruviusiulianus@-------- wrote:
> Once the coins are available I think it would be profitable for
Nova
> Roma if citizens were to make donations or pay for fees/taxes/goods
> in sestertii. This could be quite profitable for Nova Roma. First
> money would be gained from the sale of coins, then the paying for
> something and finally a third time by selling the coins again where
> the cycle would begin once more! Please reply with your thoughts
on
> this!
>
> Cum gratia,
>
> Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,
> Civis Novae Romae





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Subject:	[novaroma] The Oringin of The Family Sentius
From:	markbird@--------
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 11:26:25 -0000

Salve

I am a new Citizen. Can anyone tell me of the background of the
Sentius Family - there does not seem to be much mention in the
current Classical Oxford etc.

Vale bene,

Marcus Sentius Claudius






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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] HELVETIA annexa Germaniae 1
From:	"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 13:28:22 +0200

G. Noviodunus Ferriculus Lucillae Corneliae Cinnae S.D.

Lucilla Cornelia Cinna scripsit:

> I remember we had this discussion some time ago, and actually I don't

> see any reason to stir it up again here on the main list, when the

> organization of the province affected by your request after the

> discussion was already brought to an end. In fact, at the moment

> Switzerland is part of the Regio Germania superior, as in large parts it

> was part of the province Germania superior in antiquity. There is a

> legate appointed and he and his staff are working very hard to

> establishe a lively Regio. You are virtually thwarthing their efforts by

> installing a new discussion on the second day of your citizenship,

> without ever having talked to anyone who runs this province and this

> region, as far as I can see.


I'm sorry my action has been looked at with such a negative view. Of
course my goal was not to prevent Germania Superior to become a lively
regio. But you are absolutely right: I should not have started this
discussion here, but with the Legato of my current Regionis.


> We will still welcome you to the province of Germania or Gallia or

> Italia, whatever you prefer. When there will be a website for the Regio

> Germania superior, I see no problem in bringing up a French and Italian

> version as well, as long as someone is willing to supply us with the

> translation.


Now this is excellent news. My concern was not another one! Depending on
my daily workload and the needed work for the translation, I could even
volunteer for translating the Germania Superior website in French.


> I would like to ask you, what point are you trying to make here?


My point is the following: my cognomen refers to Noviodunum, alias
Colonia Iulia Equestris, today known as Nyon, near Geneva (French
speaking area). I'd like to invite other persons from this area to join
my Familiam, however, if they don't have informations in French, I doubt
they will join.

So as far as I can see, my goal is really not personal, but I hope it
will make Novam Romam a better place. I won't ever do anything against
it and you were right to put me back to my place with your comment above.

I'm ending here my last post on this list and on this topic. I will get
in touch with the Legato of my Regionis and see how I can be helpful for
the website.


Please forgive my mistakes and I promise they won't happen again.


Ferriculus


--
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
Civis Provinciae Germaniae , Regionis Superioris






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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Budget
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 13:29:11 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, jmath669642reng@w... wrote:
> Lucius Drusus;
>
> May I respectfully suggest that you put your ideas for a Budget Lex into
> a folder, and then write the Lex yourself. As I have said in this forum
> on several occasions we have in Nova Roma about 5 times as many
> "suggestions" as we have those willing to do something with them.
>
> I have indicated to you that a budget was drawn up for this year. It
> was drawn up by myself in the last month of the year. You may remember
> at that time I was the Consul, and not a Quaestor. If myself and
> Senator Cassia had not done the job, it would not have been done.
>
> As you say, it should have been done earlier, but then there have been
> much more important things in this Republic which should have been done
> earlier as well. It was not done earlier, and the Senior Consul at the
> time issued an Edict to cover the one month lapse. The problem was that
> there was no-one else willing to do the job, or knew how to do it,
> because I did the Budget in the year before that as well. Now that we
> have established that there is a budget for the year 2001, and that it
> has been approved by the Senate, and we have your apology for unduly
> upsetting some 800 people, and we now know the how of why that situation
> arose, we can perhaps take some action to deal wth it.
>
> But wait, we may have already done that, by electing twice the Quaestors
> that we have ever had before, by getting the Quaestors together for
> discussions concerning financial matters, assigning Quaestors to all
> Senior Magistrates, and insuring that both Consuls have Assensi (who are
> Quaestors) who will remind them of this need in plenty of time. We
> evolve here in Nova Roma, and sometimes we are caught out by
> happenstance, the cure for which a Lex is not always the only nor the
> best one available.
> Yes, Citizen Drusus, we know that the Budget should be drawn up in
> November, and when we have someone besides the Consul to do it, I am
> sure that it will be done, as we have now, done on time, and submitted
> to the Citizens for a vote-- if in fact there are enough Rogators to
> have a vote which at that time there were not. However, since that time
> we have also doubled the number of Rogators that we may have as well.
>
> Frankly, considering the problems of the moment, at that time, I am not
> sure how much good a Lex would have done. However, by all means, should
> you wish to write one, I applaud your efforts. I would simply ask you
> not to impose your ideas on someone else, and ask them to substitute
> your schedule for thier own.
>
> Respectfully;
> Marcus Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>

Salve Marcus Audens,

Nova Roma is being financed in a somewhat informal mammer at the
present time. Much of the costs have been borne by in-kind
contributions from our magistrates, the remainder from a small profit
on Flags, The Eagle, Etc. An informal view of the budget process has
grown along with the Ad Hoc financing.

Recently however our Senior Consul has started a debate on Taxes, and
that debate has seen some civies propose that those who don't pay
thier taxes have thier franchise reduced by placing them into a single
Century, While others would go farther and strip them of thier vote or
even thier citizenship. Others have expressed a fear of coruption
because of problems they have observed in thier Macro Nations.

Given the Senior Consuls introducing the subject, along with this
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/senate/2000-11-09-vii.html
I'm fairly certain that taxes will be imposed sometime this year.

I have served on NPC boards in the past so I know what effects you
will see when membership fees (taxes) are imposed. Most members
(Citizens) will happily go along with whatever the Senate passes.
However there will be a VERY vocal minority that wiil make a regular
habit of reading every Quarterly Report and Proposed budget, who will
track every cent raised and spent, and who will become students of the
Macro National laws governing Nova Roma INC. (As opposed to the Micro
Nation. If you think I've raised some tough questions you haven't seen
anything yet!

Once the membership fees are imposed and you gain the attention of
those ready to stand as "The Champions of the Tax Payers" there will
be accusations of fraud and threats of criminal charges if every i
isn't dotted and every t crossed in the finical statements. On the
policital side, members of opposing factions will find they have a new
weapon to use against those in power.

Having been through this twice, I made it my concern to check out Nova
Roma Inc's bylaws regarding this matter, and they are woefully
inadequate. If the bylaws (leges) are not in full compliance with New
Hampshire's laws and assorted US Federal regs, Then at some point in
the future someone is going to make life pure hell for members of the
Senate along with whichever magistrates happen to be in office at the
time. Resignation will not help either, as these people will still be
liable for actions that took place while they held office.

A Lex formalizing the budgatary procedures may not seem important to
Nova Roma, The Micro Nation, but it will also be a bylaw of Nova Roma
Inc, the legal entity, and in this case the bylaw is VERY important
for the future health of both the legal entity and the Micro Nation.

I have no problem with drafting a proposed Lex (Bylaw) and will do so
as soon as I get the information I need regarding New Hampshire's
laws. I will then post it here, and submit copies to the Consuls and
Praetors. If they chose not to place it before the Comitia Populi
Tributa, then I'll pass it on to the Tribunes in the hope they will
place it before the Comitia Plebis Tributa. That is, I'm afraid, the
limit of what a private citizen can do.

Vale
Lucius Sicinius Drusus




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Oringin of The Family Sentius
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 23:32:26 +1000 (EST)

Ave Marcus Sentius,

The family of Sentius is that of a praetorian family.
Gaius Sentius was the governor of Macedonia during the
invasion of Mithridates in the time of Sulla and
Marius, and was one of the main reasons that
Mithridates was not able advance, as he presented a
pocket of resistance in Macedonia and the upper part
of Achaea. Macedonia being a pathway from Asia through
Thrace and into Greece, was vital for Mithridates to
take in order to ensure supplies.

The other part of my name comes from his legate,
Quintus Bruttius Sura, who was used as a second
general, and together they quite ably delayed
Mithridates with about 2 legions against the vast
invading Pontic Armies

Hope this helps explain some things.

Valete bene

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

--- markbird@-------- wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Salve<BR>
<BR>
I am a new Citizen.  Can anyone tell me of the
background of the <BR>
Sentius Family - there does not seem to be much
mention in the <BR>
current Classical Oxford etc.<BR>
<BR>
Vale bene,<BR>
<BR>
Marcus Sentius Claudius<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</tt>

<br>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] NOVA ROMA: Capita XIV et XV
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 15:42:13 +0200

Ave Lutecio,

Voici l'histoire entičre.

Vale bene,
Draco


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Client/Patron/Mentor,etc. -My final thoughts
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 07:31:51 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete, romani quirites; et salve, Oppi Flacce.

Now this is what I call elegance. Thank you, Flacce.

Gnaeus Salix Astur, civis romanus.

--- Oppius Flaccus Severus <oppiusflaccus@--------> wrote:
> Salvete Quiritibus;
>
> Well, the time has come for me to sign off of
> the client/patron/mentor issue for now. I think
> at least for the moment, that it has been beaten
> to death and like some other issues here of late,
> we have begun beating on the proverbial dead horse.
>
> For those that are continually on the lookout for
> any sign of disagreement, corruption, governmental
> perversion and the like -I can but say that we disagree
> and just because I'm stepping out of the fray for
> now, does not mean I in any way intend to even *imply*
> that anyone is being stifled. By all means, please
> continue to go ahead and debate away.
>
> To Iasonvs Serenvs, I can only say for now that
> your posts are interesting and the references
> to Nietzsche, roads, the inevitable corruption
> of human groups, etc. are unique. At the end
> of these posts, the ultimate result seems to be
> of course that you disagree with such an abhorrent
> practice as client/patron so your opinion has
> been duly noted next to that of Draco and Formosanus.
>
> To Titus Octavius; I appreciate your thoughts
> and summation on the matter. You have stated
> exactly the intent of what I was originally
> discussing in a very apt and succinct manner.
> Those that wish to continue to disagree or miss
> the point may do so at their own discretion.
> Also my appreciation to Propraetors Caeso Fabius
> and Procopius for understanding the discussion
> as well.
>
> To L. Sicinus and Gnaeus Salix -you both have
> been made some excellent points in the discussion.
> Though I didn't agree with all of them, many I did -the
> arguments were extremely well stated and I immensely
> appreciate you both taking the time to comment
> in such an erudite manner. Gratias multas. Our
> discussions in Nova Roma need no DEMAND such thoughtful
> responses and debate on our key issues.
>
> To mi filia and everyone else that has had input
> on this, again my many thanks.
>
> I have tired of this issue personally and the
> continual write, reply and response mechanism
> is keeping me from my other NR and non-NR tasks;
> so without further ado I sign off this topic.
> I may comment on something related to this again,
> but if not please accept my statement here and continue
> on about the other discussions.
>
> One final thought, I think some other tangential
> issues which really lay at the core of many of the
> issues discussed of late should still be
> addressed -my thoughts on some of these will be
> discussed in an upcoming post.
>
> Bene valete in amicita;
> Oppius
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 07:53:23 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes.

Once again, Flaccus has stated his thoughts in a precise and coherent
manner. Thank you. People like you make Nova Roma a much better place.

Some of you (not many, I guess) will be wondering where do I stand in
the three tier division suggested by Flaccus. Well, you could call me
the "Middle Point" man (just like Aristotles).

I certainly share with Flaccus a great love of Rome and everything
Roman, and I also believe we should try to rebuild the institutions,
traditions and aspects of Rome as closely as possible to Rome as it was
at the beginning of it's Golden Age (Middle Republic to Principate, in
my opinion).

However, we should not believe that Rome was a static place. Rome
evolved, because change is unavoidable. At the beginning of her
History, Rome changed very rapidly, and that was exactly the key of her
success. She took just a couple of centuries to go from a small Italic
town to the rule over Italy; and then, during the Punic wars, Rome
changed in just fifty years from a regional Italian power-shifter with
a land based Army to be the absolute ruler of the Western
Mediterranean.

It was when Rome lost this elasticity, this ability to adapt to
changing environments, that decadence began.

So why should us be less wise than Rome herself? Aren't we trying to
resurrect "the Best of Rome"? Then, how could we leave behind the
ability to adapt that so much meant in Rome's success?

I'll also present my personal disclaimer. This is my opinion. I respect
different oppinions just as I respect my own. So don't you take offence
from any of my words. Remember it was not my intention to put it there
in the first place.

Thank you all for your attention, et valete bene.

Gnaeus Salix Astur, civis romanus.

--- Oppius Flaccus Severus <oppiusflaccus@--------> wrote:
> Salvete Quiritibus;
>
> With all the debate that has occurred recently, I could
> not help thinking how relevant these discussions were to
> the perpetual issues of reconstruction, what to reconstruct,
> how much, antiqua versus modern, etc. We have all always
> had differing thoughts on these matters and this has
> become yet again strikingly clear in the recent discussions.
>
> I was having an informal chat with a civis whom I admire
> a great deal, regarding the issue of 'Rebirth versus
> Reconstruction.' As I hadn't personally thought of it
> in quite those terms before (my thinking had centered
> around varying degrees of reconstruction,) it caused
> me to want to think on it a good deal more as to clarify
> my own thoughts.
>
> The realization I arrived at is -my 'ideal' tends more
> towards a full rebirth of Antiqua. Huge disclaimer: the
> following thoughts are mine alone and are not intended
> to influence, anger or irritate my fellow cives. Many
> will likely disagree with me (as is the way of debate and
> discussion here in this forum,) which is completely
> fine. For the record, I can but say yet again that
> no matter what my personal state of agreement with
> anyone is, my concern is for expressed opinions and
> debate points -not the individuals themselves.
>
> Back to my point. As mentioned, they crux of so very
> many issues here always, *always* comes back to who
> favors what level of reconstruction. Recognizing that
> none of us as individuals holds the complete answer,
> I can but share my opinions.
>
> What are my thoughts? At the base level, quite simply if
> I could, I'd quite happily be plunked back in the
> height of the empire. Of course, we'd all have our
> ideal periods in which to visit, but for me -fire
> up the time machine and drop me and the family
> off, next stop...Rome. -Not ancient Greece (though
> I would certainly visit and bask in the culture
> and architecture,) not Byzantium. (oh please!)
>
> So in other words; I cherish
> Roma Mater in all the greatest of her glory and
> majesty; period. No disclaimers, no exceptions,
> no 'but I would like this, but I would not like that.'
>
> This is me, this is my personal vision. Of course,
> we have a dramatically different notion going on here
> in Nova Roma. -I knew this coming in and I stand by
> Nova Roma's stated goals wholeheartedly. Do I expect my 'vision' or
> wish to be
> granted? Of course not. Do
> I expect that others will agree to such a strict
> construction of empire? Of course not. Do I expect
> to maintain a steady state of compromise with those
> that favor a much more 'modern' view of Rome?
> Absolutely.
>
> Where I'm going is that we're all trying to build a
> nation -some of us more 'conservative,' some of us
> more 'liberal.' In realizing that my personal vision
> may not be achieved, it will not stop me from standing
> by Roma Mater, her gods, her wisdom, her virtues and
> her very essence. I will always look to create and
> maintain as many of Antiqua's traditions as absolutely
> possible. -Even if said institutions are largely
> in name only, or in a severely altered and watered
> down form such as 'client/patron.' (No, I'm not going to
> discuss that topic further right now.)
>
> So Quirites, that is where Oppius is coming from. Nothing
> up my sleeve, I simply want Roma and as much of her
> as possible with all her glorious attributes -"good" and
> "bad."
>
> Let's examine the other side of the coin. There is
> another group of people that have a vision that is
> diametrically opposed to mine. (Again disclaimer, -this
> is just a statement of observation and is in *no*
> way intended to serve as any statement on my part as to
> who is 'right' or 'wrong.' Everyone has a valid
> opinion.) This other vision of Roma is something
> at its fundamental core -quite different from mine.
>
> At the core of this other vision, is the idea that we have
> come a 'long way' as humans, we have evolved to some
> higher, conscious state of being, that we know a lot
> better than our forefathers did how to live, die and
> conduct the business of everyday life. This view 'seems'
> to desire to put a heavy face of socialistic ideals
> and superimpose onto Roma Mater and come up with
> some completely different entity.
>
> (I again invoke my previous disclaimers before moving
> on.)
>
> There is of course, a vast 'third' opinion, which is
> somewhere in between. Those that like some or maybe
> even most of Roma's institutions -but might knock a
> couple of items off the list here and there, or add
> one or two things. Essentially though, it's still
> largely representative of Roma Mater with a bit of
> generalized modern touches.
>
> As Nova Roma continues to move forward, forces of
> all three schools of thought (as this is my unofficial
> classification scheme, please feel free to chime
> in with any additional schools of thought that may
> exist) will continue to bash into one another. This
> is our nature, I've accepted it and as long as a
> public forum exists for the sharing of individual
> opinion in any manner that the individual deems
> fit, dissent of one form another will exist.
>
> I'll further state -dissent is good. Non-personal
> argument is healthy, constructive debate especially
> on key issues is critical for us. There *also* comes a
> time when we need to stop talking and just 'do,'
> to paraphrase an excellent statement made recently
> in this forum. I couldn't agree more.
>
> For those that disagree with laws and administration,
> I might just offer this observation; Leges seem
> to be the necessary culmination to many items open
> for debate in NR. There comes a time when something physical
> needs to be placed in front of someone and at that
> time, the individual needs to make some decision based
> on that. Then, discussion ends, the voters speak and
> we move on to the next thing. Endless discussion, while
> being intellectually stimulating to a point, ultimately
> results in nothing being accomplished until the
> matter comes up for formal vote.
>
> Well, I could go on -but I've gone on now for more
> than long enough and don't wish to consume more time
> than necessary. Please feel free to comment publicly
> or privately on any of the issues raised here and let
> me know what you think. Gratias multas if you've made
> it this far in the post, you have my sincere gratitude
> for giving me your time.
>
> Bene valete in Pace Deorum,
> Oppius
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 16:52:32 +0200

Sextus Apollonius Draco Patricio Vitruvio Iuliano SPD,

((Oppius' posting snipped for brevity))

> I must say that I nearly completely agree with your
> views on rebirth. I would be happier in ancient Rome
> than I am here and now. And I think that humans as a
> whole (and especially Europeans, from whom I descend)
> have gone down hill since the fall of Rome.
>
> However this should not be taken to mean that Roma
> Antiqua was perfect. It was very sexist, had little
> respect for human life [[[[[(killing an adult human who has
> don something wrong or for the sake of spreading
> civilization is fine,]]]]] killing a baby is wrong),

(emphasis mine) Excuse me? Suppose I had a superior idea of my own
civilization, and would decide to kill you? Or if you had broken into my
house, and I'd decide to kill you with my handgun? Do you truly think this
is right? Strange notion valueing life you have. And is it wrong to kill a
baby if that baby was Adolf Hitler? I find your views bizzarre and
inconsistent. I hope I misinterpreted them.

I think killing a human being is not °fine° in any circumstance (well, maybe
a really extreme circumstance).

> and
> was very superstitious. These two things and
> technology, however, were the only things which I
> believe made Roma imperfect. Some of you may be
> thinking that I am leaving some things out which you
> think you and I think are also imperfections, to clear
> this I will make a list:
>
> -The belief that nature, animals, and such ought to be
> tamed are inferior to humans and are here for -human
> use.
>
> I agree with this completely. Conservation ought to
> be taken only for the sake of human enjoyment and/or
> needs. I see no proof that animals and all other life
> forms are equal to humans.
>

I see no proof for the opposite either. Do you? Why do you think this? What
makes the life of an earthworm less in value than yours? It is alive, just
like you are. It's only smaller, less agile and less intelligent than you
are. But if I follow your reasoning, a super-intelligent lifeform from outer
space might come down on Earth and colonize the planet, wiping out human
life because it is inferior to him - yet I am sure you would without doubt
find this immoral.

> Right now I can not, unfortunately, remember the rest
> of my list (Sorry :-( ). However, since I expect
> debate on this to continue :-), I am certain I will be
> reminded of any unclarities I need to clarify. I hope
> I have not offended any one, but these are my beliefs.
>
> With appologies,

No apologies necessary.


I could add to the list of imperfections in ancient Rome:

- bloodsports
- slavery
- political murders
- conquest
- racism
- oligarchism
- sadism
- Interpretatio Romana
- power madness
- decadence (orgies)

I hope you find the above list not acceptable in a modern, 21st century
nation. And if you do, care to explain me why.

Vale bene,
Draco




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Origin of The Family Sentius
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 16 Apr 2001 01:22:46 +1000 (EST)

Ave again,

Just a little adendum.

According to the sources I've found so far, Gaius
Sentius and Quintus Bruttius Sura were prorogued for a
few years due to the fact that they persued a
brilliant campaign against the Bessi and Dardanians in
Thrace right up until the outbreak of the Mithridatic
War.

After the outbreak of the Mithridatic War, I can find
no reference to them, and can only assume that they
perished when the province of Macedonia fell.

Valete bene,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

--- Jerry Anguston <gaiussentius@--------> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Ave Marcus Sentius,<BR>
<BR>
The family of Sentius is that of a praetorian
family.<BR>
Gaius Sentius was the governor of Macedonia during
the<BR>
invasion of Mithridates in the time of Sulla and<BR>
Marius, and was one of the main reasons that<BR>
Mithridates was not able advance, as he presented
a<BR>
pocket of resistance in Macedonia and the upper
part<BR>
of Achaea. Macedonia being a pathway from Asia
through<BR>
Thrace and into Greece, was vital for Mithridates
to<BR>
take in order to ensure supplies.<BR>
<BR>
The other part of my name comes from his legate,<BR>
Quintus Bruttius Sura, who was used as a second<BR>
general, and together they quite ably delayed<BR>
Mithridates with about 2 legions against the vast<BR>
invading Pontic Armies<BR>
<BR>
Hope this helps explain some things.<BR>
<BR>
Valete bene<BR>
<BR>
Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura<BR>
<BR>
--- markbird@-------- wrote: <BR>
<HR><BR>
<html><body><BR>
<tt><BR>
Salve<BR><BR>
<BR><BR>
I am a new Citizen.&nbsp; Can anyone tell me of
the<BR>
background of the <BR><BR>
Sentius Family - there does not seem to be much<BR>
mention in the <BR><BR>
current Classical Oxford etc.<BR><BR>
<BR><BR>
Vale bene,<BR><BR>
<BR><BR>
Marcus Sentius Claudius<BR><BR>
<BR><BR>
<BR><BR>
<BR><BR>
</tt><BR>
<BR>
<br><BR>
<BR>
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	Michel <loos@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 09:44:18 -0300

Salve,

"S. Apollonius Draco" wrote:
>
> Sextus Apollonius Draco Patricio Vitruvio Iuliano SPD,
>
> ((Oppius' posting snipped for brevity))
>
> > I must say that I nearly completely agree with your
> > views on rebirth. I would be happier in ancient Rome
> > than I am here and now. And I think that humans as a
> > whole (and especially Europeans, from whom I descend)
> > have gone down hill since the fall of Rome.
> >
> > However this should not be taken to mean that Roma
> > Antiqua was perfect. It was very sexist, had little
> > respect for human life [[[[[(killing an adult human who has
> > don something wrong or for the sake of spreading
> > civilization is fine,]]]]] killing a baby is wrong),
>
> (emphasis mine) Excuse me? Suppose I had a superior idea of my own
> civilization, and would decide to kill you? Or if you had broken into my
> house, and I'd decide to kill you with my handgun? Do you truly think this
> is right? Strange notion valueing life you have. And is it wrong to kill a
> baby if that baby was Adolf Hitler? I find your views bizzarre and
> inconsistent. I hope I misinterpreted them.
>
> I think killing a human being is not °fine° in any circumstance (well, maybe
> a really extreme circumstance).
>
> > and
> > was very superstitious. These two things and
> > technology, however, were the only things which I
> > believe made Roma imperfect. Some of you may be
> > thinking that I am leaving some things out which you
> > think you and I think are also imperfections, to clear
> > this I will make a list:
> >
> > -The belief that nature, animals, and such ought to be
> > tamed are inferior to humans and are here for -human
> > use.
> >
> > I agree with this completely. Conservation ought to
> > be taken only for the sake of human enjoyment and/or
> > needs. I see no proof that animals and all other life
> > forms are equal to humans.
> >
>
> I see no proof for the opposite either. Do you? Why do you think this? What
> makes the life of an earthworm less in value than yours? It is alive, just
> like you are. It's only smaller, less agile and less intelligent than you
> are. But if I follow your reasoning, a super-intelligent lifeform from outer
> space might come down on Earth and colonize the planet, wiping out human
> life because it is inferior to him - yet I am sure you would without doubt
> find this immoral.
>
> > Right now I can not, unfortunately, remember the rest
> > of my list (Sorry :-( ). However, since I expect
> > debate on this to continue :-), I am certain I will be
> > reminded of any unclarities I need to clarify. I hope
> > I have not offended any one, but these are my beliefs.
> >
> > With appologies,
>
> No apologies necessary.
>
> I could add to the list of imperfections in ancient Rome:
>
> - bloodsports
> - slavery
> - political murders
> - conquest
> - racism
> - oligarchism
> - sadism
> - Interpretatio Romana
> - power madness
> - decadence (orgies)

Not sure what you you find bad/evil in this last one. I am totally in
accord for all of the rest you said, but the only evil thing I can see
in orgies is the use of slaves, take the slaves out and make the orgies
a fine party between consenting adults and we have one of the finest
things in ancient rome.

Teh trouble for me is that this pertains to a period of Rome I would not
like to revive: the empire. I really thought we were rebuilding the
Republic (pre-Sullan for sure since he destroyed the Republic,
even pre-Marian since he already distorted the institutions) and orgies
have nothing to do with that golden period.
Decadence began with Caesar/Marcus, with the oriental influence.

Trajan rules a decadent Empire. Julian's religion has nothing to do
with the original Roman religion. Neo-platoniscism is a mirror image of
christianity not the Roman civic religion.
Definitively I would not like to give a second birth to those.

Back to the original: no we do not need to think that our values are
better
than ancient rome values. Even in antiquity slavery was thought of as an
evil,
but a necessary evil since some needed to work since the technology was
not
good enough.
Today we have the technology and don t need the slaves.

Racism is not really roman, but the more general xenofobia was, as it
still is in most nations. It is really evil but difficult to overcome,
it s just part of the animal selfishness: If nothing makes you as an
individual better than the others proclaim your group (species, gender,
race, nation, faction) is better than the others, it always makes you
feel better. As much you work on it something of this evil will still
stay.

Manius Villius Limitanus

PS: Still receiving at best 1 post in 4 from yahoogroups. Could n t we
change for a novaroman server ?

>
> I hope you find the above list not acceptable in a modern, 21st century
> nation. And if you do, care to explain me why.
>

> Vale bene,
> Draco
>
>
>
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 15:56:03 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@p...> wrote:
> Sextus Apollonius Draco Patricio Vitruvio Iuliano SPD,
>
> ((Oppius' posting snipped for brevity))
>
> > I must say that I nearly completely agree with your
> > views on rebirth. I would be happier in ancient Rome
> > than I am here and now. And I think that humans as a
> > whole (and especially Europeans, from whom I descend)
> > have gone down hill since the fall of Rome.
> >
> > However this should not be taken to mean that Roma
> > Antiqua was perfect. It was very sexist, had little
> > respect for human life [[[[[(killing an adult human who has
> > don something wrong or for the sake of spreading
> > civilization is fine,]]]]] killing a baby is wrong),
>
> (emphasis mine) Excuse me? Suppose I had a superior idea of my own
> civilization, and would decide to kill you? Or if you had broken into my
> house, and I'd decide to kill you with my handgun? Do you truly
think this
> is right? Strange notion valueing life you have. And is it wrong to
kill a
> baby if that baby was Adolf Hitler? I find your views bizzarre and
> inconsistent. I hope I misinterpreted them.
>
> I think killing a human being is not °fine° in any circumstance
(well, maybe
> a really extreme circumstance).
>

I can NOT let this pass without comment.
First once you accept the idea that you have the right to kill another
to spread "civilization" to create the ideal state, you have taken the
first step on the road that leads to the Nazi Death Camps, To the
Soviet Gulags, To the Killing Fields of Cambodia, To the genocide of
Native Americans. This idea has created Bloodbaths and I regard it as
pure EVIL.

You only have the right to kill another person in order to defend your
life or your freedom. If you break into my house I will regard you as
a threat to my life. I have said this in other forums and I'll repeat
it here.

I AM AN ARMED MAN, AND I WILL DEFEND MYSELF!

For those who may claim the intruder only intends to steal my
properity, first I have no way of knowing this, and second if the
thief steals something that it took me a day to earn the money to buy,
then he has turned me into his slave for a day. You have the right to
defend your freedom, therefore slaves have the right to rise up and
kill thier masters and I regard master thief in this light.

As for Baby Hitler, only the Gods have the ability to look at a baby
and know his fate, but in the unlikely event the Gods granted me this
power, I would NOT hesitate to defend myself by killing baby Hitler.


L. Sicinius Drusus




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Coins and Flag
From:	margali <margali@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 12:11:02 -0400

Ooh!

I would like any of my fellow Nova Romans to come by and visit me
in camp at Pennsic!

If you are going to be there on land lottery day, come on down
for dinner. I make dinner for the harbingers of W10 so they can
concentrate on divvying up the land and not worry about making
food. I am in SPCA [was Caer Frig] in W-10. We are tucked down
behind Clann Ouacairennan and Lions Camp. If you look at the map
of W10 and the lake, we are on the funny corner near the spit of
land. We are going to have our sign out - a large soup kettle in
black over a salamander proper on a gold background.

margali
Hyapatia Asinia




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Subject:	[novaroma] Gladiator
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 12:21:21 EDT

Salvete omnes

I finally got around last night to watching this movie. Not a bad movie,
even if it was terrible history. The last I checked, Vindabonna was not
in Germania. Oh well, in the movies anything is possible.

It was a really good production. The one thing that grated on my
sensitivities was the "mispronunciation" of so many words and names. Who
would take a perfectly beautiful name like "Lucius" and turn it into
"Looshus?" Oh, and the legionaries did way too much hacking and too
little thrusting, but I guess by that era they were relying too much on
auxillaries with flaming arrows and not training the troops as tightly.
;-)

I didn't even recognize Aurelius as Richard Harris until I saw his name
in the credits.

What was the name of Commodus' sister? I could never make it out?

Valete,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

cum ballistae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti ballistas habebunt.

(When ballistas are outlawed, only outlaws will have ballistas.)




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Client/Patron/Mentor,etc. -My final thoughts
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 12:21:20 EDT

Salve Oppius Flaccus

You show good sense and good judgement by this decision - if you can
stick to it. ;-)
When I try to bow out of these seemingly endless topics, somebody usually
comes along and posts some off-the-walls statement to which I just *have
to* respond. My weakness.

Since I have not, to my recollection, commented on this issue heretofore,
I wish to go on record saying that I personally think that we must not
*allow* the recreation of the ancient system of clientism here, because I
think it *is* both inherently corrupt in concept and because it flies in
the face of the basic principles of equality (with which I know certain
of you will take extreme exception) and of the unity of the body of our
citizens.

That being said (and responders will of course invariably quote that
paragraph and not this one), I don't think what you and Sertorius have
been describing fits the terms patron-client, and I think it very
unfortunate that anyone has chosen to misapply that terminology to the
very desireable act of mentoring which we last year discussed putting
into place officially here. I think the you have accepted Lucius
Cornelius as your mentor. You have benefitted from his guidance and
tutelage, but you are not bound in his service except as you choose to
reward him for his assistance. You are not, as our ancestors might have
said, "his man."

I would venture to say that L. Cornelius did not win Sertorius the
Tribunate (unless we assume that he commands the votes of the Cornelii as
a block, which seems unlikely). But I am certain he did encourage and
advise Sertorius in how to go about running. That is commendable on the
part of both men - that the one offered and the other listened. That is
*mentoring.*

Mea sententia, to use the terms "patron" and "client" is demeaning to
both parties and to our Republic as a whole. I ask that we not sully our
shining Republic by employing such terms. (an NO - there is no pun
intended there).

That, I hope, is my first and last word on that subject.

On 4/14/01 10:49 PM Oppius Flaccus Severus (oppiusflaccus@--------)
wrote:

>Salvete Quiritibus;
>
>Well, the time has come for me to sign off of
>the client/patron/mentor issue for now. I think
>at least for the moment, that it has been beaten
>to death and like some other issues here of late,
>we have begun beating on the proverbial dead horse.
>
SNIPPED

>I have tired of this issue personally and the
>continual write, reply and response mechanism
>is keeping me from my other NR and non-NR tasks;
>so without further ado I sign off this topic.
>I may comment on something related to this again,
>but if not please accept my statement here and continue
>on about the other discussions.
>
>One final thought, I think some other tangential
>issues which really lay at the core of many of the
>issues discussed of late should still be
>addressed -my thoughts on some of these will be
>discussed in an upcoming post.

I think you are very right and very perceptive in this. I too think that
there are some related issues that haven't been brought out (perhaps it's
just the psychologist in me). Usually that's because there are reasons
not to bring them out. Think carefully before you choose to be the one
who raises them.
**************************
Reading on, I see that you have already done so, but the issue you raise
is not a bad one. As Gilda Radner would say...."Never mind." :-)
>
>Bene valete in amicita;
>Oppius
>
Vale,

Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus


in ullam rem ne properemus.

(Let's not rush into anything.)




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] HELVETIA annexa Germaniae 1
From:	Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 18:27:45 +0200

G. Novioduno Ferriculo Lucilla Cornelia Cinna salutem

No need to apologize. I was only trying to refer you back to the
regional institutions of Nova Roma within the Provincia Germania.
Everybody who is willing to contribute is welcome - and sometimes
particularly those who turn out deeply involved cives are those who
overstepped the marks with their first postings. It is no problem. :o)

> Depending on
> my daily workload and the needed work for the translation, I could even
> volunteer for translating the Germania Superior website in French.

Great, that would actually be of help.
Germania is one of the larger provinces with more than 40 inhabitants.
We actually don't care much about our macronational affiliations, and
the division into provinces is neither following ancient usus pnly nor
modern national borders - in fact, we're all Europeans! :o)
If we followed ancient usus, the Netherlands would belong to Germania as
Germania Inferior - however in NR it belongs to Gallia, and everybody is
okay with it.

> I'd like to invite other persons from this area to join
> my Familiam, however, if they don't have informations in French, I doubt
> they will join.

Unfortunately, my French is too poor to start a French version of the
provincial website. So I hope we can get along with some cives
volunteering on a French translation soon, maybe even placing a specific
site for the Regio Germania Superior to offer more information to French
speaking Swiss people interested in Rome and NR.
From the iseli.org, I got the impression you yourself do read and write
German, so again, I wholeheartedly invite you to join the NRGermania. We
will be pleased to welcome you with us. There are quite a lot of Swiss
cives on that list.




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Coins and Flag
From:	"J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 13:35:24 -0400

Salve Margali!
I'll be camping with Dragonship Haven/Clann O'Choda (behind the solar
showers). Bringing my Nova Roma flag with me! Will be merchanting also,
under the aegis of Krystar (The Book Lady); she has me and two garb makers
sharing her Grimm merch tent.

Vale,
S. Ambrosia Fulvia
(in the SCA, Baroness Mistress Arwen Evaine ferch Rhys ap Gwynedd)






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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gladiator
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?WWFubiBRdely6Q==?= <yquere@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 20:21:00 +0200

Her name was Lucilla

----- Original Message -----
From: <LSergAust@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 6:21 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Gladiator


>
> Salvete omnes
>
> I finally got around last night to watching this movie. Not a bad movie,
> even if it was terrible history. The last I checked, Vindabonna was not
> in Germania. Oh well, in the movies anything is possible.
>
> It was a really good production. The one thing that grated on my
> sensitivities was the "mispronunciation" of so many words and names. Who
> would take a perfectly beautiful name like "Lucius" and turn it into
> "Looshus?" Oh, and the legionaries did way too much hacking and too
> little thrusting, but I guess by that era they were relying too much on
> auxillaries with flaming arrows and not training the troops as tightly.
> ;-)
>
> I didn't even recognize Aurelius as Richard Harris until I saw his name
> in the credits.
>
> What was the name of Commodus' sister? I could never make it out?
>
> Valete,
>
> L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
>
> cum ballistae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti ballistas habebunt.
>
> (When ballistas are outlawed, only outlaws will have ballistas.)
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gladiator
From:	QFabiusMax@--------
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 15:08:00 EDT

In a message dated 4/15/2001 9:22:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
LSergAust@-------- writes:

<< What was the name of Commodus' sister? I could never make it out? >>
Connie Neilson



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 15:28:19 -0500

Salvete Oppi Flacce Quiritesque

Thank you for reintroducing this topic, Oppi Flacce. For three years
now, I have been stating that the central tension in Nova Roma is that
of what to keep of the old versus what to include of the new.

> What are my thoughts? At the base level, quite simply if
> I could, I'd quite happily be plunked back in the
> height of the empire.
<amputatio>
> So in other words; I cherish
> Roma Mater in all the greatest of her glory and
> majesty; period. No disclaimers, no exceptions,
> no 'but I would like this, but I would not like that.'

I rather doubt that. There are always 'buts'. I expect that you would
prefer to keep modern dentistry, for example. I admit that that's an
empirical and technological example, however. So, let's move to more
subjective and social examples. You're honestly telling me that you
would have no problem with slavery, the oppression of women, mass
executions, et cetera? Even if you would, I expect that you, like most
people I know who make such statements, mean that you would be quite
happily plunked back in the height of the empire, assuming you were a
citizen who was wealthy enough to be free of debt and have some free
time. I doubt you'd appreciate being even a well-kept slave.

> So Quirites, that is where Oppius is coming from. Nothing
> up my sleeve, I simply want Roma and as much of her
> as possible with all her glorious attributes -"good" and
> "bad."

I would argue that there was little that was 'glorious' in Roma
Antiqua's bad aspects, and that Nova Roma states explicitly that we are
attempting to recreate the *best* of ancient pagan Rome.

> Let's examine the other side of the coin. There is
> another group of people that have a vision that is
> diametrically opposed to mine. (Again disclaimer, -this
<amputatio>
> conduct the business of everyday life. This view 'seems'
> to desire to put a heavy face of socialistic ideals
> and superimpose onto Roma Mater and come up with
> some completely different entity.
>
> There is of course, a vast 'third' opinion, which is
> somewhere in between.

Speaking as one of those within that third option, and assuming that
your option is one that advocates as much pure historicity as possible,
I would say that there is a fourth option that you did not cover.

There seems to also be a group of people who are here because they view
Rome's main strength to have been a strict social hierarchy which
evinced itself in the patronus-cliens relationship, patria potestas,
elitism, et cetera. This group appears to have been attracted to Nova
Roma as a reaction to (primarily) America's tendency toward 'political
correctness', which is mainly the unhealthy result of an over-extended
attempt to be inclusive, democratic, and fair. For them, it seems, a
return to the past would be a return to a predictable world in which
everything makes sense on a human level because life operates by
predictable rules that favor not just the dominant human species, but
the dominant among humans. I see evidence for this group in the form of
overly hostile reactions to political correctness, the use of terms like
'Amerika' (which has long been a neo-Nazi code word for an America that
favored brown people and homosexuals over right-thinking 'Aryans'), and
the like.

> Those that like some or maybe
> even most of Roma's institutions -but might knock a
> couple of items off the list here and there, or add
> one or two things. Essentially though, it's still
> largely representative of Roma Mater with a bit of
> generalized modern touches.

As I said, I'm in this third group. I'm there primarily because all
history is a lie of one form or another, as all historians have biases
which skew their interpretations of the evidence. Therefore, we will
never really know what Roma Antiqua was really like. Even if we come
extremely close, there wiil be plenty of historians who will validly
disagree with our interpretations. As it is, we have a constitution,
little difference between patricians and plebeians, very little
institutionalized sexism, a completely altered tribunate, et cetera. We
have also run into deep, deep problems every time someone's tried to
legislate people into behaving a little more like their view of ancient
Romans. We *cannot* escape the modern world, and we *cannot* expect our
cives to behave like ancient people, even if we could agree upon how the
ancients actually behaved. Therefore, it behooves us to work toward
some compromise that captures the *spirit* of Roma while accepting that
we cannot escape modernity.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach
conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant."
-Helen Keller



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Coins and Flag
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 13:45:21 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes.

As I hear you talking about the SCA, I remember having heard some of my
friends (and prospective fellow citizens) talking about forming a
Novoroman legion to fight for the honour of Rome :-).

Do you have any information about the SCA in Spain? I'd really
appreciate any comments.

Gnaeus Salix Astur, civis romanus.

--- "J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@--------> wrote:
> Salve Margali!
> I'll be camping with Dragonship Haven/Clann O'Choda (behind the solar
> showers). Bringing my Nova Roma flag with me! Will be merchanting
> also,
> under the aegis of Krystar (The Book Lady); she has me and two garb
> makers
> sharing her Grimm merch tent.
>
> Vale,
> S. Ambrosia Fulvia
> (in the SCA, Baroness Mistress Arwen Evaine ferch Rhys ap Gwynedd)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: European meeting
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 21:55:43 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus Aedilis Plebeius omnibus Novoromanis
Europaeis S.P.D.

Inasmuch as I am asked about a pan-European Nova Roman get together,
let me state:

1. I think it is an especially good idea. Roma was always an idea and
reality uniting Europa, and being on the spot, as it were, we have a
special relationship with Rome which we should cherish and affirm.

2. If it happens while I am enjoying my tenure as Aedile and it is
agreed that the Aediles should be responsible, I am in principle
willing to undertake some of the organising responsibilities or
official sponsorship - although the people on the spot in the
selected location would obviously have the most to do by far.

3. The proposal of Colonia Agrippina (Cologne) no doubt has many
merits, but for many of us in Europa Orientalis the costs of
travelling and staying there might be prohibitive. Speaking for cives
in Venedia (the future provincia to comprise at least Polonia
moderna), it would be fairly easy and cheap to get as far as
Berolinum (Berlin), if inexpensive accomodation were available.
(There are special heavily discounted trains to and from Posnania
(Poznan).) Within Polonia and Pannonia (Bohemia, Moravia, Slovacia,
Hungaria) and even to Vindobona (Vienna) train transportation is
cheap, but as soon as we must travel large distances through Germania
to go west the expenses begin to look formidable.

I think that this problem of differential East-West incomes will be
a problem for years to come. For us in the East, Praga (Prague) or
Vindobona would be better. But of course they are not quite so
central for those further to the west. (Although Praga, for example,
offers the western European excellent value for money in terms of
accommodation, restaurants, etc.)

The above notwithstanding, I am surprised that no one suggested
meeting in Roma (Italia)!

I hope that interest in this idea will continue, and that we will be
able to realise it, even this year. I quite agree that summer would
be the best time.

Valete!


Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 01:21:25 +0200 (CEST)
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Subject: Re: Re: European meeting

Salvete, romani quirites; et salve, Caeso Fabi Quintillane.

--- Christer Edling <tjalens.h@--------> escribió: > Salve Honorable
Legatus and Procurator Sextus Apollonius Draco and
> Honorable Gnaeus Salix Astur!
>
> Meeting are supposed to be organized by the Aedils.
>

I therefore beg the two European aediles mentioned below (Hon. Titus
Sertorius Albinus and Marcus Apollonius Formosanus) to express their
thoughts on this subject.

>
> >> I wanted to talk with you somewhat further on the possibility of
a
> >> European meeting.
> >>
> >> First thing we have to set is a date. I think somewhere in the
> early
> >> summer vacation might not be a bad idea. How about July?
> >
> >I think that, wherever we made it, we could get much more
assistance
> if
> >we do it during the summer. And we have several months to planify.
>
> >I guess I'll be busy this summer (I am actually applying for a
> summer
> >job to several corporations), but I could try to be off a couple
of
> >days. And, even if I couldn't go, I'd be very happy just to help
you
> >and others to organize it.
>
> I know that I can't go this summer, but maybe others can.
>
> >> Second thing would be a place. I liked the suggestion of Köln;
> it's
> >> pretty central in Europe. It's a far travel for Italian or
Spanish
> >> cives, but so it is for Scandinavian cives. If we'd have a
meeting
> in
> >> southern France the latter ones wouldn't even show up because of
> the
> >> distance. Before the Exodus of March there had been talks about
a
> >> meeting in Trieste or Vienna in the last weekend of May, but I
> don't
> >> know if that's still a living plan, or if it died along with
their
> >> planners.
> >>
> >I knew you would prefer Köln to southern France. My suggsetion of
> >meeting in southwestern France was a little joke. It supposed to
> mean:
> >"why don't we do it here at my home so I don't have to move? :-)".
> >I have not heard about a meeting in May, though. But, as you know,
> I've
> >been a civis for a short period of time ;-). Maybe we should ask
> other
> >more experienced cives on this matter.
>
> Köln would be OK, but not this summer. I think that You must get
some
> Aedils to start the thing. We have two in Europe, Curule Aedile
Titus
> Sertorius Albinus (England) and Plebeian Aedile Marcus Apollonius
> Formosanus (Poland), let's ask them!
>
> >> Third thing, is the appointment of people who coordinate the
> event.
> >> The travel from a given country to that spot is in the hands of
> the
> >> respective provincial staffs, but if it is going to be a meeting
> >> that's longer than one day (which is very likely) we'll need a
> hotel
> >> (or a camping), and arrangements of visits to Roman sites and
> diverse
> >> Musea. The Propraetor of Germania could do this, as Köln is a
> German
> >> city; however, I don't know how far he lives from that place. I
> would
> >> appreciate his comment on this, too (that's why I CC'd this to
> him).
>
> The Propraetor of Germania could do this, but the Aedils should be
> responsible.
>
> >I'll CC'd my response back to him. I'll also send it to NRHispania
> >(just in case anyone has a good idea). I'll also forward it to
every
> >European provincial list (at least, to everyone I can find).
> >
> >>
> >> Fourtht issue: how to contact citizens. Propraetores have the
> right
> >> to get the list of email addresses from their citizens, but the
> >> Censoriate has not fulfilled that request from Gallia so far,
even
> >> though we asked it FOUR times. <sigh> Does Hispania have a
> >> Propraetor?
>
> There is a List for the Govenors, we will investigate this issue.
> >
> >Unfortunately, we don't. Seems like no eligible candidate is
willing
> to
> >accept the honour (that's the only explanation I can think of). I
> would
> >like to do the work myself, but I don't fulfill the requirements.
I
> >would make a call to Salix Davianus (who presented an unsuccessful
> >candidature to the post) to join me in doing the work WITHOUT the
> >honours and benefits of the rank, but I don't know if he'll accept
> >(please let me know if you do, Daviane).
>
> I think Honorable Claudius Salix Davianus will have to wait to get
> appointed. He will fullfil the requirements somewhere in November?
> Yes I
> think You should try to cooperate to get the provincia going.
> Honorable
> Lucius Minicius Laietanus seems to have been ther for some time
(with
> a
> photo). Honorable Marcus Salix Vigilius seems to have been there
even
> longer. I could have missed someone, but make call for these, maybe
> they
> show up? Otyherwise, in the fullness of time go for it yourself,
You
> know
> You would get my support!
>
> >BTW, I've just read about Roman activities held yearly in the
> Spanish
> >city of Mérida (Roman Emerita Augusta). They make classic theatre
> >performances in the Roman amphytheatrum, and many reenactors
assist
> (a
> >kind of "Roman Days", but with quite a lot of public). I would
> suggest
> >that Nova Roma made a formal petition of cooperation to the
> organizing
> >groups, although I haven't found out who they are, yet. I will
keep
> you
> >all informed.
> >
> >P.D.: I've tried to look for all European provincial lists, but
> >www.yahoogroups.com is not working correctly (it won't perform the
> >required search). Could you please forward this message to them
> later?
> >Thank you.
>
>
>
> Vale
>
> Christer Edling
> alias
> Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> Quaestor of Nova Roma
> Propraetor of Thule
> Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus
>
> The Opinions expressed are my own,
> and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
> ************************************************
> Join the Main List for Nova Roma
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
> ************************************************
> Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
> "I'll either find a way or make one"
> ************************************************
> "Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
> ************************************************
> SHAMALI SALUKIS
> ************************************************
> CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
> Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
> ************************************************
> IF GAMES - If reality was different!
> Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
> ************************************************
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> ************************************************
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>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

_____________________________________________________________
______________________________
_________________________________________________
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, Aedilis Plebeius Novae Romae
Amicus Dignitatis; Scriba Censorius
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Moderator Indicis protoprovincialis NR_Venediae
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
____________________________________________________
Memento Idus Martias - non omnino bene Respublica se habet.
(Remember the Ides of March - it is not all well with the Republic.)
____________________________________________________

All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph in the world is for
enough good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
___________________________________________________




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 23:05:10 +0200

Salve Luci Sicini,

> >
> > ((Oppius' posting snipped for brevity))
> >
> > > I must say that I nearly completely agree with your
> > > views on rebirth. I would be happier in ancient Rome
> > > than I am here and now. And I think that humans as a
> > > whole (and especially Europeans, from whom I descend)
> > > have gone down hill since the fall of Rome.
> > >
> > > However this should not be taken to mean that Roma
> > > Antiqua was perfect. It was very sexist, had little
> > > respect for human life [[[[[(killing an adult human who has
> > > don something wrong or for the sake of spreading
> > > civilization is fine,]]]]] killing a baby is wrong),
> >
> > (emphasis mine) Excuse me? Suppose I had a superior idea of my own
> > civilization, and would decide to kill you? Or if you had broken into my
> > house, and I'd decide to kill you with my handgun? Do you truly
> think this
> > is right? Strange notion valueing life you have. And is it wrong to
> kill a
> > baby if that baby was Adolf Hitler? I find your views bizzarre and
> > inconsistent. I hope I misinterpreted them.
> >
> > I think killing a human being is not °fine° in any circumstance
> (well, maybe
> > a really extreme circumstance).
> >
>
> I can NOT let this pass without comment.
> First once you accept the idea that you have the right to kill another
> to spread "civilization" to create the ideal state, you have taken the
> first step on the road that leads to the Nazi Death Camps, To the
> Soviet Gulags, To the Killing Fields of Cambodia, To the genocide of
> Native Americans. This idea has created Bloodbaths and I regard it as
> pure EVIL.
>
> You only have the right to kill another person in order to defend your
> life or your freedom. If you break into my house I will regard you as
> a threat to my life. I have said this in other forums and I'll repeat
> it here.
>
> I AM AN ARMED MAN, AND I WILL DEFEND MYSELF!
>
> For those who may claim the intruder only intends to steal my
> properity, first I have no way of knowing this, and second if the
> thief steals something that it took me a day to earn the money to buy,
> then he has turned me into his slave for a day. You have the right to
> defend your freedom, therefore slaves have the right to rise up and
> kill thier masters and I regard master thief in this light.
>
> As for Baby Hitler, only the Gods have the ability to look at a baby
> and know his fate, but in the unlikely event the Gods granted me this
> power, I would NOT hesitate to defend myself by killing baby Hitler.
>

Woho! Calm down, amice. I wasn't responsible for these statements; I
inquired the writer of these statements with these rhetoric questions
myself. The original writer was Patricius Vitrivius, not me.

Thanks for understanding.

Vale bene,
Draco




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
From:	margali <margali@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 18:12:20 -0400

But theoretically isn't this what out Paterfamilias and gens are
supposed to do? In Rome the family educated the child into adult
responsibilities and morals. That is why the paterfamilias
literally had the power of life and death over his gens.

margali

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Quote Starts Here:
What I'm getting at is that I believe the citizens who first
spoke up in
favor of establishing official client/patron relationships, in no
way
intended to bond the clients to the will of the patrons. It was
merely
to be a formalized way for newcomers to learn about the ways of
our
beloved res publica.

Thus, it might be appropriate if we renamed the thread "The
Student
Mentor Relationship", so traditionalists will not simply read the
words
and get the wrong idea, which I fear might have been the case
sometimes.




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Coins and Flag
From:	margali <margali@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 18:22:07 -0400

Are you doing Coronation next weekend? Any chance to get
together?
Lady Margali of Dragons Aerie

Hyapatia Asinia


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Quote Starts Here:
(in the SCA, Baroness Mistress Arwen Evaine ferch Rhys ap
Gwynedd)




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Coins and Flag
From:	margali <margali@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 18:35:06 -0400

Here is the overall European Kingdom home site:
http://www.drachenwald.org/
Unfortunately the closest group is Paris, but you could start
your own branch ;-)
[Unless my lord Husband's submarine makes Gibraltar as a liberty
port, and then there will be 1 member of the SCA in Gibraltar for
a weekend or so. ;-) ]

However, if you ever want an incredible vacation and have 1 or 2
weeks to spare, wee have an incredible 2 week event in August -
our 'national convention' which is in it's 30th year this summer.
Imagine camping with 10,000 people in personas ranging from Roman
to Elizabethan, Persian, Mongolian, Japanese and Rus [from time
periods prior to 1600] My camp would be honored to make space for
anybody who registers before 1 June [any given year.] As a
vacation, it is about the best 'bang for your buck' - the camping
fee is about $180 US for the whole 2 weeks, and then you have the
cost of food, and any shopping you might have. We even have a few
loaner tents available, and our particular camp shares 1 kitchen
tent [we even paid for hiring a scullery maid this year so we
have a designated pot and pan washer!] Last year, Rob and I spent
about $250 dollars for food for the 2 weeks, and part of that
included throwing a feast for 30 people one night, and 45 people
on a different night. [Each person takes care of throwing a feast
1 evening of the time they are there. We normally have 20 or so
people in our camp, and so it is not uncommon for people to pool
the resources and share a night.] We have a few people who fly
into Pittsburg and we pick them up [hence the loaner tents.] The
event has a full load of classes you can take on an incredible
number of different subjects [I teach one on period cooking
ingredients, 1 class for european and one for middle eastern.
margali
Hyapatia Asinia


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Quote Starts Here:
As I hear you talking about the SCA, I remember having heard some
of my
friends (and prospective fellow citizens) talking about forming a

Novoroman legion to fight for the honour of Rome :-).

Do you have any information about the SCA in Spain? I'd really
appreciate any comments.

Gnaeus Salix Astur, civis romanus.




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 12:08:23 -0700 (PDT)

> > (emphasis mine) Excuse me? Suppose I had a
> superior idea of my own
> > civilization, and would decide to kill you? Or if
> you had broken into my
> > house, and I'd decide to kill you with my handgun?
> Do you truly think this
> > is right? Strange notion valueing life you have.
> And is it wrong to kill a
> > baby if that baby was Adolf Hitler? I find your
> views bizzarre and
> > inconsistent. I hope I misinterpreted them.

You have misinterpreted my views. However, this is my
fault. Take the Nazis for example. It would be very
difficult to classify their beliefs as civilized.
They are irrational and needlessly cruel. Would you
rather have them live and continue their ways of mass
extermination of the innocent or don't you think it
would be better for someone to step in and do
something? As for the Romans, while not perfect, they
were certainly the best group of people around at the
time. If I had to choose between fighting for the
Ancient Romans or the Ancient Scots (my ancestors) in
a battle between the two, I would fight for the
Romans. It would be right to kill baby Hitler in
retrospect, but not if you didn't know what he would
do. Because in that case, you would be killing a baby
who, as far as you know, will grow to be a perfectly
fine human being.

> > I see no proof for the opposite either. Do you?
> Why do you think this? What
> > makes the life of an earthworm less in value than
> yours? It is alive, just
> > like you are. It's only smaller, less agile and
> less intelligent than you
> > are. But if I follow your reasoning, a
> super-intelligent lifeform from outer
> > space might come down on Earth and colonize the
> planet, wiping out human
> > life because it is inferior to him - yet I am sure
> you would without doubt
> > find this immoral.

Yes, I do see something that makes animals inferior to
humans. They have no emotions, and therefore no soul.
Some people say that dogs have emotions and have
unconditional love for their masters, but I doubt that
that love would be so "unconditional" if the owner
were no longer able to feed it.

> > I could add to the list of imperfections in
> ancient Rome:
> >
> > - bloodsports

I am incredibly sorry and feel equally stupid for
having ommitted this. I do believe that this is
wrong.

> > - slavery

It was an evil, but a neccessary evil for runnining
the world. It is no longer needed, but it once was
needed. I believe that man kind is better off having
had slavery than not having it at all. However, I do
think that slaves should have been treated more like
men than things, even in ancient times. By the time
of the civil war, and probably for at least 100 years
if not more before that, I don't believe that slavery
was neccessary.

> > - political murders

This goes under blood sports as well, sorry.

> > - conquest

I believe that the world is much better off having
been conquered by Rome than the alternative. Howver,
this is because of what they did with a land once it
was conquered. They would develop it, thus improving
the lives of the locals. I do not believe that what
the European powers did when they came to America was
right, they completly disenfranchised the locals.

> > - racism

I don't see this in ancient Rome. Some of the
wealthiest Romans were African, and by the time of the
Severian dynasty over a third of the Senate was of
African background. One could become a Roman by
serving in the army for 25 years. I do see
culturalism, but I believe in culturalism. I don't
believe in racism.

> > - oligarchism

Put it with blood sports.

> > - sadism

Same as above.

> > - Interpretatio Romana

Clarify please.

> > - power madness

This can be good in some cases and bad in others.
Julius Caesar used his power well. Nero did not. I
am afraid that the good must be taken with the bad.

> > - decadence (orgies)
>
> Not sure what you you find bad/evil in this last
> one. I am totally in
> accord for all of the rest you said, but the only
> evil thing I can see
> in orgies is the use of slaves, take the slaves out
> and make the orgies
> a fine party between consenting adults and we have
> one of the finest
> things in ancient rome.

I have the same view. However, I do not think
abortions are right. This takes an innocent life for
the maintenance of another's life style. It simply is
not right.

> > I hope you find the above list not acceptable in a
> modern, 21st century
> > nation. And if you do, care to explain me why.

Which list?

> >
>
> > Vale bene,
> > Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 12:09:46 -0700 (PDT)

--- Michel <loos@--------> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> "S. Apollonius Draco" wrote:
> >
> > Sextus Apollonius Draco Patricio Vitruvio Iuliano
> SPD,
> >
> > ((Oppius' posting snipped for brevity))
> >
> > > I must say that I nearly completely agree with
> your
> > > views on rebirth. I would be happier in ancient
> Rome
> > > than I am here and now. And I think that humans
> as a
> > > whole (and especially Europeans, from whom I
> descend)
> > > have gone down hill since the fall of Rome.
> > >
> > > However this should not be taken to mean that
> Roma
> > > Antiqua was perfect. It was very sexist, had
> little
> > > respect for human life [[[[[(killing an adult
> human who has
> > > don something wrong or for the sake of spreading
> > > civilization is fine,]]]]] killing a baby is
> wrong),
> >
> > (emphasis mine) Excuse me? Suppose I had a
> superior idea of my own
> > civilization, and would decide to kill you? Or if
> you had broken into my
> > house, and I'd decide to kill you with my handgun?
> Do you truly think this
> > is right? Strange notion valueing life you have.
> And is it wrong to kill a
> > baby if that baby was Adolf Hitler? I find your
> views bizzarre and
> > inconsistent. I hope I misinterpreted them.
> >
> > I think killing a human being is not °fine° in any
> circumstance (well, maybe
> > a really extreme circumstance).
> >
> > > and
> > > was very superstitious. These two things and
> > > technology, however, were the only things which
> I
> > > believe made Roma imperfect. Some of you may be
> > > thinking that I am leaving some things out which
> you
> > > think you and I think are also imperfections, to
> clear
> > > this I will make a list:
> > >
> > > -The belief that nature, animals, and such ought
> to be
> > > tamed are inferior to humans and are here for
> -human
> > > use.
> > >
> > > I agree with this completely. Conservation
> ought to
> > > be taken only for the sake of human enjoyment
> and/or
> > > needs. I see no proof that animals and all
> other life
> > > forms are equal to humans.
> > >
> >
> > I see no proof for the opposite either. Do you?
> Why do you think this? What
> > makes the life of an earthworm less in value than
> yours? It is alive, just
> > like you are. It's only smaller, less agile and
> less intelligent than you
> > are. But if I follow your reasoning, a
> super-intelligent lifeform from outer
> > space might come down on Earth and colonize the
> planet, wiping out human
> > life because it is inferior to him - yet I am sure
> you would without doubt
> > find this immoral.
> >
> > > Right now I can not, unfortunately, remember the
> rest
> > > of my list (Sorry :-( ). However, since I
> expect
> > > debate on this to continue :-), I am certain I
> will be
> > > reminded of any unclarities I need to clarify.
> I hope
> > > I have not offended any one, but these are my
> beliefs.
> > >
> > > With appologies,
> >
> > No apologies necessary.
> >
> > I could add to the list of imperfections in
> ancient Rome:
> >
> > - bloodsports
> > - slavery
> > - political murders
> > - conquest
> > - racism
> > - oligarchism
> > - sadism
> > - Interpretatio Romana
> > - power madness
> > - decadence (orgies)
>
> Not sure what you you find bad/evil in this last
> one. I am totally in
> accord for all of the rest you said, but the only
> evil thing I can see
> in orgies is the use of slaves, take the slaves out
> and make the orgies
> a fine party between consenting adults and we have
> one of the finest
> things in ancient rome.
>
> Teh trouble for me is that this pertains to a period
> of Rome I would not
> like to revive: the empire. I really thought we were
> rebuilding the
> Republic (pre-Sullan for sure since he destroyed the
> Republic,
> even pre-Marian since he already distorted the
> institutions) and orgies
> have nothing to do with that golden period.
> Decadence began with Caesar/Marcus, with the
> oriental influence.
>
> Trajan rules a decadent Empire. Julian's religion
> has nothing to do
> with the original Roman religion. Neo-platoniscism
> is a mirror image of
> christianity not the Roman civic religion.
> Definitively I would not like to give a second birth
> to those.
>
> Back to the original: no we do not need to think
> that our values are
> better
> than ancient rome values. Even in antiquity slavery
> was thought of as an
> evil,
> but a necessary evil since some needed to work since
> the technology was
> not
> good enough.
> Today we have the technology and don t need the
> slaves.
>
> Racism is not really roman, but the more general
> xenofobia was, as it
> still is in most nations. It is really evil but
> difficult to overcome,
> it s just part of the animal selfishness: If nothing
> makes you as an
> individual better than the others proclaim your
> group (species, gender,
> race, nation, faction) is better than the others, it
> always makes you
> feel better. As much you work on it something of
> this evil will still
> stay.
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus
>
> PS: Still receiving at best 1 post in 4 from
> yahoogroups. Could n t we
> change for a novaroman server ?
>
> >
> > I hope you find the above list not acceptable in a
> modern, 21st century
> > nation. And if you do, care to explain me why.
> >
>
> > Vale bene,
> > Draco
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

I apoloigize for forgetting to sign this the first
time.

Vale optime,

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 12:17:01 -0700 (PDT)

--- Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> wrote:
> Salvete omnes.
>
> Once again, Flaccus has stated his thoughts in a
> precise and coherent
> manner. Thank you. People like you make Nova Roma a
> much better place.
>
> Some of you (not many, I guess) will be wondering
> where do I stand in
> the three tier division suggested by Flaccus. Well,
> you could call me
> the "Middle Point" man (just like Aristotles).
>
> I certainly share with Flaccus a great love of Rome
> and everything
> Roman, and I also believe we should try to rebuild
> the institutions,
> traditions and aspects of Rome as closely as
> possible to Rome as it was
> at the beginning of it's Golden Age (Middle Republic
> to Principate, in
> my opinion).
>
> However, we should not believe that Rome was a
> static place. Rome
> evolved, because change is unavoidable. At the
> beginning of her
> History, Rome changed very rapidly, and that was
> exactly the key of her
> success. She took just a couple of centuries to go
> from a small Italic
> town to the rule over Italy; and then, during the
> Punic wars, Rome
> changed in just fifty years from a regional Italian
> power-shifter with
> a land based Army to be the absolute ruler of the
> Western
> Mediterranean.
>
> It was when Rome lost this elasticity, this ability
> to adapt to
> changing environments, that decadence began.
>
> So why should us be less wise than Rome herself?
> Aren't we trying to
> resurrect "the Best of Rome"? Then, how could we
> leave behind the
> ability to adapt that so much meant in Rome's
> success?
>
> I'll also present my personal disclaimer. This is my
> opinion. I respect
> different oppinions just as I respect my own. So
> don't you take offence
> from any of my words. Remember it was not my
> intention to put it there
> in the first place.
>
> Thank you all for your attention, et valete bene.
>
> Gnaeus Salix Astur, civis romanus.

An excellent way of putting it, Gneaeii! I am more
conservative than you it would appear, but I am more
to the left than some others.

I will also take your disclaimer in this message.

Vale optime,

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Pennsic Plans
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 19:06:58 EDT

Greetings all,
I too am going to Pennsic and was planing a brunch or light meal
meeting for Nova Roma in our camp the Thursday of the last week of War.
perhaps we should join forces . I am a camp cook for the Shire Of Shadowed
Stars (middle kingdom) on the Seregeti usally N1 . we may not get that space
as they are putting all the royals in the same area/Zone for the next five
years.

Shieka Aminah bint Abdullah (sca)

Prima Ancinna Drusila (Nova Roma)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Pennsic Plans
From:	margali <margali@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 19:55:02 -0400

Well, we could have it in my camp, we are under the trees in a
nice shady spot, with a nice cool breeze coming off the lake, and
are set up to handle feeding a fair number of people ;-)

We are pretty sure to get our land, we have been down there for
quite a while, and all of our camps have stayed the same for the
last 5 years that I know of. Not to mention, they might be
running the drum classes at Orluck Oasis so we have music.

Your call ;-)
margali
[and after several pennsics, I know all of the basic doumbek
rhythms in my sleep!]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Quote Starts Here:
I too am going to Pennsic and was planing a brunch or light meal
meeting for Nova Roma in our camp the Thursday of the last week
of War.
perhaps we should join forces .




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 23:46:15 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@p...> wrote:
> Salve Luci Sicini,
>
> > >
> > > ((Oppius' posting snipped for brevity))
> > >
> > > > I must say that I nearly completely agree with your
> > > > views on rebirth. I would be happier in ancient Rome
> > > > than I am here and now. And I think that humans as a
> > > > whole (and especially Europeans, from whom I descend)
> > > > have gone down hill since the fall of Rome.
> > > >
> > > > However this should not be taken to mean that Roma
> > > > Antiqua was perfect. It was very sexist, had little
> > > > respect for human life [[[[[(killing an adult human who has
> > > > don something wrong or for the sake of spreading
> > > > civilization is fine,]]]]] killing a baby is wrong),
> > >
> > > (emphasis mine) Excuse me? Suppose I had a superior idea of my own
> > > civilization, and would decide to kill you? Or if you had broken
into my
> > > house, and I'd decide to kill you with my handgun? Do you truly
> > think this
> > > is right? Strange notion valueing life you have. And is it wrong to
> > kill a
> > > baby if that baby was Adolf Hitler? I find your views bizzarre and
> > > inconsistent. I hope I misinterpreted them.
> > >
> > > I think killing a human being is not °fine° in any circumstance
> > (well, maybe
> > > a really extreme circumstance).
> > >
> >
> > I can NOT let this pass without comment.
> > First once you accept the idea that you have the right to kill another
> > to spread "civilization" to create the ideal state, you have taken the
> > first step on the road that leads to the Nazi Death Camps, To the
> > Soviet Gulags, To the Killing Fields of Cambodia, To the genocide of
> > Native Americans. This idea has created Bloodbaths and I regard it as
> > pure EVIL.
> >
> > You only have the right to kill another person in order to defend your
> > life or your freedom. If you break into my house I will regard you as
> > a threat to my life. I have said this in other forums and I'll repeat
> > it here.
> >
> > I AM AN ARMED MAN, AND I WILL DEFEND MYSELF!
> >
> > For those who may claim the intruder only intends to steal my
> > properity, first I have no way of knowing this, and second if the
> > thief steals something that it took me a day to earn the money to buy,
> > then he has turned me into his slave for a day. You have the right to
> > defend your freedom, therefore slaves have the right to rise up and
> > kill thier masters and I regard master thief in this light.
> >
> > As for Baby Hitler, only the Gods have the ability to look at a baby
> > and know his fate, but in the unlikely event the Gods granted me this
> > power, I would NOT hesitate to defend myself by killing baby Hitler.
> >
>
> Woho! Calm down, amice. I wasn't responsible for these statements; I
> inquired the writer of these statements with these rhetoric questions
> myself. The original writer was Patricius Vitrivius, not me.
>
> Thanks for understanding.
>
> Vale bene,
> Draco

Salve Draco,

LOL,
I'm quite aware of which statements were made by you and which ones
were made by Patricius Vitrivius. The first paragraph is the response
to his statement, While the remainder was largely a response to your
statement "I think killing a human being is not °fine° in any
circumstance (well, maybe a really extreme circumstance)." As you can
tell I hold that there are two (and only two) reasons to kill another
person. I'll freely admit that I made use of your rhetorical questions
in my reply, in order to drive my point home. Basically it comes down
to this it's immoral to use any kind of force for any reason other
than self defense, but there is nothing immoral about defending your
self by means of force.

I'm not really too worried that you'll fly from Gallia to America
Austrorientalis just to break in my house (You'll lose money, the air
fare will excede the value of anything you haul off) ;o). However if
you want to visit (and leave your burgler's tools at home) ;o), I'll
put the guns away and we can have a fine old time touring my rather
unhistorical city (We had a little problem here in Atlanta with an
arsonist in a blue uniform in 1864).

Vale
Drusus




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