Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@-------->
Date:	Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:15:23 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Omnes

As with the good Gnaeus Salix Astur, and with Ser
Oppius, I too long for a renaissance of ancient
sensibilities. Though no luddite, I, it is with
sadness that I gaze upon a world which has lost the
alure and the subtle mystery with which the classical
ancients infused their world. At times brutal, at
times timely, it still seems to me that for all the
toys we've made, we use them with less wisdom than
would an Aurelius, or even that most promethean
Caesar. Our own brutality mirrors theirs, yes, but
not our spirits. It is in this shadow, the shade of
the twentieth century after the nazarene, that I write
with apprehension. I do not offer blanket mistrust of
institutions, or persons, or human relations. I am
leary of a world view which gave us all eighteen
minutes to breathe a last breath, hug a loved one, and
kiss the sky goodbye. In case I have made this
reference to vague, 18 minutes is the approximate time
it takes a missile launched from a mid-atlantic sub to
wipe away a city anywhere in america or europe or
western russia. It is the time we all life on, whether
we know it or not. It is sometimes too easy, to
facile, to admire the men of the past. We do not know
what they would have done with the power our leaders
take for granted. That I come to this page every day,
in hope and anticipation, should serve some minor
notice of my own faith, sense, and sensibilities. As
with us all, though, I am a man come to maturity in a
human world of great decay, and gathering historical
forces. Decadence is not, cannot be, defined as the
breakdown in human realtions. Relations are by their
nature relative, subject to constant evolution and
mutation. Decadence is the awareness of the breakdown
in relations, and the inability to rise to the
challenge. I believe that we have come to call
ourselves, individual and aggregate, NOVA Romans,
precisely because the Roman way serves as an antidote
to the toxic environments in which we live. It is the
beginnings of a national identity, and we struggle
often to define it, ourselves by it, and its place in
the world we must at times wish to leave behind. So,
with Ser Oppius Flaccus Severus, I too say yes to Roma
Mater, however she chooses to manifest herself in our
relations one with the other.

In humble gratitude,

Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs Peregrinvs





--- Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> wrote:
> Salvete omnes.
>
> Once again, Flaccus has stated his thoughts in a
> precise and coherent
> manner. Thank you. People like you make Nova Roma a
> much better place.
>
> Some of you (not many, I guess) will be wondering
> where do I stand in
> the three tier division suggested by Flaccus. Well,
> you could call me
> the "Middle Point" man (just like Aristotles).
>
> I certainly share with Flaccus a great love of Rome
> and everything
> Roman, and I also believe we should try to rebuild
> the institutions,
> traditions and aspects of Rome as closely as
> possible to Rome as it was
> at the beginning of it's Golden Age (Middle Republic
> to Principate, in
> my opinion).
>
> However, we should not believe that Rome was a
> static place. Rome
> evolved, because change is unavoidable. At the
> beginning of her
> History, Rome changed very rapidly, and that was
> exactly the key of her
> success. She took just a couple of centuries to go
> from a small Italic
> town to the rule over Italy; and then, during the
> Punic wars, Rome
> changed in just fifty years from a regional Italian
> power-shifter with
> a land based Army to be the absolute ruler of the
> Western
> Mediterranean.
>
> It was when Rome lost this elasticity, this ability
> to adapt to
> changing environments, that decadence began.
>
> So why should us be less wise than Rome herself?
> Aren't we trying to
> resurrect "the Best of Rome"? Then, how could we
> leave behind the
> ability to adapt that so much meant in Rome's
> success?
>
> I'll also present my personal disclaimer. This is my
> opinion. I respect
> different oppinions just as I respect my own. So
> don't you take offence
> from any of my words. Remember it was not my
> intention to put it there
> in the first place.
>
> Thank you all for your attention, et valete bene.
>
> Gnaeus Salix Astur, civis romanus.
>
> --- Oppius Flaccus Severus <oppiusflaccus@-------->
> wrote:
> > Salvete Quiritibus;
> >
> > With all the debate that has occurred recently, I
> could
> > not help thinking how relevant these discussions
> were to
> > the perpetual issues of reconstruction, what to
> reconstruct,
> > how much, antiqua versus modern, etc. We have all
> always
> > had differing thoughts on these matters and this
> has
> > become yet again strikingly clear in the recent
> discussions.
> >
> > I was having an informal chat with a civis whom I
> admire
> > a great deal, regarding the issue of 'Rebirth
> versus
> > Reconstruction.' As I hadn't personally thought of
> it
> > in quite those terms before (my thinking had
> centered
> > around varying degrees of reconstruction,) it
> caused
> > me to want to think on it a good deal more as to
> clarify
> > my own thoughts.
> >
> > The realization I arrived at is -my 'ideal' tends
> more
> > towards a full rebirth of Antiqua. Huge
> disclaimer: the
> > following thoughts are mine alone and are not
> intended
> > to influence, anger or irritate my fellow cives.
> Many
> > will likely disagree with me (as is the way of
> debate and
> > discussion here in this forum,) which is
> completely
> > fine. For the record, I can but say yet again that
> > no matter what my personal state of agreement with
> > anyone is, my concern is for expressed opinions
> and
> > debate points -not the individuals themselves.
> >
> > Back to my point. As mentioned, they crux of so
> very
> > many issues here always, *always* comes back to
> who
> > favors what level of reconstruction. Recognizing
> that
> > none of us as individuals holds the complete
> answer,
> > I can but share my opinions.
> >
> > What are my thoughts? At the base level, quite
> simply if
> > I could, I'd quite happily be plunked back in the
> > height of the empire. Of course, we'd all have our
> > ideal periods in which to visit, but for me -fire
> > up the time machine and drop me and the family
> > off, next stop...Rome. -Not ancient Greece (though
> > I would certainly visit and bask in the culture
> > and architecture,) not Byzantium. (oh please!)
> >
> > So in other words; I cherish
> > Roma Mater in all the greatest of her glory and
> > majesty; period. No disclaimers, no exceptions,
> > no 'but I would like this, but I would not like
> that.'
> >
> > This is me, this is my personal vision. Of course,
> > we have a dramatically different notion going on
> here
> > in Nova Roma. -I knew this coming in and I stand
> by
> > Nova Roma's stated goals wholeheartedly. Do I
> expect my 'vision' or
> > wish to be
> > granted? Of course not. Do
> > I expect that others will agree to such a strict
> > construction of empire? Of course not. Do I expect
> > to maintain a steady state of compromise with
> those
> > that favor a much more 'modern' view of Rome?
> > Absolutely.
> >
> > Where I'm going is that we're all trying to build
> a
> > nation -some of us more 'conservative,' some of us
> > more 'liberal.' In realizing that my personal
> vision
> > may not be achieved, it will not stop me from
> standing
> > by Roma Mater, her gods, her wisdom, her virtues
> and
> > her very essence. I will always look to create and
> > maintain as many of Antiqua's traditions as
> absolutely
> > possible. -Even if said institutions are largely
> > in name only, or in a severely altered and watered
> > down form such as 'client/patron.' (No, I'm not
> going to
> > discuss that topic further right now.)
> >
> > So Quirites, that is where Oppius is coming from.
> Nothing
> > up my sleeve, I simply want Roma and as much of
> her
> > as possible with all her glorious attributes
> -"good" and
> > "bad."
> >
> > Let's examine the other side of the coin. There is
> > another group of people that have a vision that is
> > diametrically opposed to mine. (Again disclaimer,
> -this
> > is just a statement of observation and is in *no*
> > way intended to serve as any statement on my part
> as to
> > who is 'right' or 'wrong.' Everyone has a valid
> > opinion.) This other vision of Roma is something
> > at its fundamental core -quite different from
> mine.
> >
> > At the core of this other vision, is the idea that
> we have
> > come a 'long way' as humans, we have evolved to
> some
> > higher, conscious state of being, that we know a
> lot
> > better than our forefathers did how to live, die
> and
> > conduct the business of everyday life. This view
> 'seems'
>
=== message truncated ===


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] What is the best of Rome? (Was Re: Rebirth versus Reconstruction: "What is the best of Rome?")
From:	Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:17:09 -0700 (PDT)

--- "G. Noviodunus Ferriculus"
<Gaius.Noviodunus@--------> wrote:
> Salvete Patrici Vitruvi Iuliane ac omnes cives Novae
> Romae!
>
> Patrick Ferguson wrote:
>
> > It seems that all of us wish to resurrect the best
> of
>
> > Rome. Yet we have made no clear definition as to
> what
>
> > that (the best of Rome is).
> >
>
> > -No, or perhaps an insignificant, animal rights
>
> > movement.
>
> > -Cheap, accessable public institutions such as the
>
> > baths.
>
> > -Little diplomacy and more of a "let's get this
>
> > overwith" attitude.
>
> > -Culturalism rather than racism.
>
> > -Upward social mobility.
>
> > -Social equity.
>
> -Sounder nutrition
>
> I agree that this point is not necessarily a public
> matter (it's up to
> everyone what he/she wants to eat. However I think
> the Government should
> encourage to eat like the Romans. In besides the
> recipes of Apulei, that
> were mostly used for the cena, we should be aware
> that the prandium was
> often cheese with bread and raw fruits. I would
> consider a Nova Romanus
> who is eating junk food (I remember a commercial
> about 2 years ago:
> "Gustus Maximus: iucundum est in MacDonalds ire")
> not to be respectful
> of Ancient Rome.

Good, but impractical.

>
> -Bilinguism
>
> The Romans had good schools. They learnt to speak
> and write both in
> Latin and in Greek, not to mention other italic
> dialects. This should be
> no different in Nova Roma. While our official
> language is de facto
> English (or even de jure? - don't know) we should be
> able to speak at
> least another wide-spread language fluently
> (Spanish, German, French,
> Russian) and why not a third one? Knowing several
> languages is an
> excellent mean to understand other people. I didn't
> mention Latin but
> those who can "speak" it fluently are blessed by the
> gods. But could be
> nice if our institutions also promoted the study of
> the latin language.
> Don't understand my wrong. I don't want it to be a
> condition to be
> admitted as citizen, but bilinguism should
> definitely be promoted by the
> government.

I am not so sure about this one. Bilingualism is
fine. But I don't think that I should *need* to be
able to speak another language in addition to my
native one to get around my own country. I do think
that if someone (including myself) were to move into
another country that they should learn the language of
that country rather than simply retain my own. This
would encourage division within citys on
cultural/language lines.

>
> I'd be glad to hear comments on my additions and see
> others add their
> items to the list.
>
> Valete bene,
> --
> Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
> Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
>
>
>

Valete optime :->,

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@-------->
Date:	Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:26:01 -0700 (PDT)

Salve Fortunatus,

It would seem this debate has brought some of the most
considered responses I have yet been fortunate to
read. Thankyou for the below...


--- Fortunatus <labienus@--------> wrote:
> Salvete Oppi Flacce Quiritesque
>
> Thank you for reintroducing this topic, Oppi Flacce.
> For three years
> now, I have been stating that the central tension in
> Nova Roma is that
> of what to keep of the old versus what to include of
> the new.
>
> > What are my thoughts? At the base level, quite
> simply if
.
>
> As I said, I'm in this third group. I'm there
> primarily because all
> history is a lie of one form or another, as all
> historians have biases
> which skew their interpretations of the evidence.
> Therefore, we will
> never really know what Roma Antiqua was really like.
> Even if we come
> extremely close, there wiil be plenty of historians
> who will validly
> disagree with our interpretations. As it is, we
> have a constitution,
> little difference between patricians and plebeians,
> very little
> institutionalized sexism, a completely altered
> tribunate, et cetera. We
> have also run into deep, deep problems every time
> someone's tried to
> legislate people into behaving a little more like
> their view of ancient
> Romans. We *cannot* escape the modern world, and we
> *cannot* expect our
> cives to behave like ancient people, even if we
> could agree upon how the
> ancients actually behaved. Therefore, it behooves
> us to work toward
> some compromise that captures the *spirit* of Roma
> while accepting that
> we cannot escape modernity.
>
> Valete
> T Labienus Fortunatus
> --
> "People do not like to think. If one thinks, one
> must reach
> conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant."
> -Helen Keller
>


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rebirth versus Reconstruction: "What is the best of Rome?"
From:	Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:31:55 -0700 (PDT)

--- "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
wrote:
> Salve Patrici Vitruvi,
>
> > It seems that all of us wish to resurrect the best
> of
> > Rome. Yet we have made no clear definition as to
> what
> > that (the best of Rome is). I believe that the
> debate
> > which has been taken place ("Rebirth vs.
> > Reconstruction") would be more appropriately
> titled
> > "What is the best of Rome?", since this is what is
> > being discussed the most. So I will lay down what
> I
> > think the best of Rome was with as few ommitions
> as
> > possible.
> >
> > -No, or perhaps an insignificant, animal rights
> > movement.
> >
> > I do not see why animals should have special
> rights.
> > They have no emotions. I think it is perfectly
> fine
> > to use them for transportation, food, sacrifices,
> and
> > many other things.
> >
>
> Don't they have emotions? That's what a worm with a
> brain who is nine
> hundered feet tall might say of you just as well,
> and see our buildings as
> termite colonies. Kick a dog, and you'll see his
> emotions.

No. I don't see emotions in animals. As far as I
know, when human children endure some sort of pain or
illness or undergo starvation, they will love their
parents even if their parents can't provide for them
(unless the parent(s) is/are the actual cause of the
problem and hates the children, and even then, the
children may love them.) If this happens with animals
they will get quite angry and attack or leave.

>
> > -Cheap, accessable public institutions such as the
> > baths.
> >
>
> I agree.

Thank you.

>
>
> (snip)
>
> > -Little diplomacy and more of a "let's get this
> > overwith" attitude.
> >
>
> This causes wars. And suffering. Misery. Pain. And
> more wars.

Either way suffering and misery will continue. Often,
though not always, war is the most efficient solution
to the problems.

>
> (snip)
>
> >
> > -Culturalism rather than racism.
> >
>
> I concur.

Thanks again.

>
> > I have seen no evidence for racism in Rome. In
> fact,
> > I have seen evidence against it.
>
> Cato Maior was an outright racist. He hated Greeks,
> and said that they were
> conspiring to destroy Roman civlization. I think the
> term "barbarian" comes
> from the Greek word "barbaros" (Latin "barbarus") by
> the way, which doesn't
> exactly have a nice connotation; one tends to think
> of wild, uncivilized
> tribes.
>
> It's true that some Romans, such as Tacitus,
> respected those "wilds", but
> that was more as a part of their own political or
> philosophical propaganda
> than anything else. Rome was, and Hellas even more,
> pretty xenophobic.

I was unaware of this, thank you for informing me.

>
> > Some of the
> > wealthiest Romans were in North Africa and of
> African
> > background. By the time of the Servian dynasty,
> over
> > a third of the Senate was of African background.
>
> Empire, but not republic. Romans thought of
> Egyptians, Persians and Syrians
> as effiminated, while Gauls, Germans and Africans
> were wild and uncivilized.
> It's true that there were many influences, and that
> Roma was much more
> multicultural than any society we see today, but
> that doesn't take away the
> fact that there were racists and xenophobes there
> just as well.

We are trying to bring back the best of ancient
*republican* Rome, however, I don't see why something
good ought to be excluded just because it is slightly
out of our time frame.

>
> > Often today, people who are in fact culturalists,
> are
> > mistaken for racists. These two are not the same
> > thing. Racism is judging someone by the color of
> > their skin rather than the content of their
> character.
> > There is nothing just or reasonable in this.
> > Culturalism is judging someone by the content of
> their
> > character (such as beliefs and actions) rather
> than
> > the color of their skin. I do see culturalism in
> > modern and Roman times. In modern times it is
> used
> > against Nazis and the Knights of the KKK. This is
> > just. However, there are certain areas (such as
> > affirmative action) where it is more difficult to
> use
> > since it may be miscontrued into racism. The
> Romans
> > often did a much better job at distinguishing
> between
> > the two and applying them correctly than we do
> now.
> > And even where they lacked, they did a better job
> than
> > anyone else at it upto that time and for a long
> time
> > after.
> >
>
> > -Upward social mobility.
> >
> > Through the army, even non Romans could gain
> benefits
> > such as citizenship or land. This is more than
> > someone in the third world could do now.
> >
>
> True.

Thank you again.

>
> > -Social equity.
> >
>
> I don't see Rome as an equal society. It was
> dominated by an upper class,
> who had 90% of all money and powers. Certainly
> during the empire and the
> post Sullan-period. I once again refer to Tacitus
> for a colourful
> description of how socially equal Rome was, or even
> better, Iuvenalis, who
> tells us the story of a patrician who, in a drunken
> mood, could beat up a
> poor cliens (not his own) unpunished just because he
> was rich and strong,
> and the other man wasn't.

In rights and laws there certainly were many
inequities. But as access to various services goes
(the baths, mass entertainment, water) one Roman had
life as good as the next. This is more than people in
the third world can say now.

>
> (snip)
>
> Vale bene,
> Draco
>
>

Valete optime :->,

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rebirth versus Reconstruction-Response to Labienus
From:	Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@-------->
Date:	Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:00:15 -0700 (PDT)

Greetings,

Well written Lucius Procopius. Maybe a fund could be
started to raise funds for temples, or at least
shrines to begin with. Combined with a local fora
idea being discussed on the Egressus List, it could
involve members in the participation essential to
experiencing the sacred.

Ias. Serenvs
--- Lucius Mauricius Procopious <procopious@-------->
wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
> . The
> philosophers teach us it is
> un-wise to yoke our happiness to such externals. If
> we seek to improve our
> bond with our God/desses and strive to live the
> virtues we will be fine. So
> let's strive to help each other live a life more in
> harmony with the virtues
> and the Gods and we'll find a way to compromise.
>
> Lucius Mauricius Procopious
> Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
> (This is an unofficial post for which I assume full
> responsibility)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> procopious@--------
> ICQ# 83516618
> *America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
> http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
> * The Gens Mauricia
> http://www.geocities.com/procopious
>
> "Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the
> hand of God that the
> affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate,
> not knowing the reason
> for what things they see occur; and what seems to be
> without cause is easy
> to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a
> matter every mortal will
> decide for himself according to his taste."
> -Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born
> c.490/507- died c.560s]
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Oppius Flaccus Severus"
> <oppiusflaccus@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 7:03 PM
> Subject: [novaroma] Rebirth versus
> Reconstruction-Response to Labienus
>
>
> > Salvete Labiene et Quiritibus;
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Fortunatus [mailto:labienus@--------]
> > Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 1:28 PM
> > To: novaroma@--------
> > Subject: Re: [novaroma] Rebirth versus
> Reconstruction
> >
> >
> > Salvete Oppi Flacce Quiritesque
> >
> > Thank you for reintroducing this topic, Oppi
> Flacce. For three years
> > now, I have been stating that the central tension
> in Nova Roma is that
> > of what to keep of the old versus what to include
> of the new.
> >
> > OFS: Then I happily lay down any credit for
> introducing
> > the discussion myself and am glad to be continuing
> to build
> > on your initial premise. As you see then, in this
> small point
> > we full concur -it *is* the central tension here.
> >
> > <snipped>
> >
> > Labienus writes:
> > I rather doubt that. There are always 'buts'.
> >
> > OFS: Then good sir, before getting to the rest of
> my
> > response, I might add another tension to that
> premise
> > on which this mail was founded. -That tension
> would be
> > the tension of one civis taking a very direct
> statement
> > made by another civis and piling many vast
> > interpretations upon it. I do not blame you for
> this
> > personally -I have been guilty of this myself more
> than
> > once and in such cases additional clarification
> was
> > required. So let me say to you -there were *quite
> clearly*
> > no 'buts' stated or intimated in my previous post.
> >
> > As you and I do not know each other personally, I
> admit
> > that you can but judge a few posts on a mailing
> list
> > as to what another civis 'would' or 'wouldn't' do,
> or
> > 'would' or 'wouldn't' want. *Unfortunately,*
> (emphasis
> > mine -I *do* hope we all meet some day,) we do not
> know
> > each other and while you are of course free to
> disagree
> > with me all you want, please do not do me the
> insult
> > of 'presupposing' what I might or might not 'do'
> in any
> > given circumstance.
> >
> > Now that we've hopefully cleared up that little
> point,
> > onwards...
> >
> > Labienus writes:
> > I expect that you would
> > prefer to keep modern dentistry, for example.
> >
> > OFS: See above. I will grant you another example
> -perhaps
> > more to the point since I'm not a major frequenter
> of the
> > dentist's chair: Latrines. Public latrines a time
> honored
> > tradition throughout the empire. So what about
> those? Would
> > I prefer my cushy fan-enhanced private bathroom
> experience?
> > Would I prefer to use my trusty Charmin instead of
> a 'sponge
> > on a stick?' Or, assuming we *do* have the public
> latrines,
> > do we still want them to blow their bilge into the
> Tiber,
> > or do we want them to run into a modern sewage
> treatment
> > plant?
> >
> > Labienus writes:
> > I admit that that's an
> > empirical and technological example, however. So,
> let's move to more
> > subjective and social examples.
> >
> > OFS: Yes, I knew you would get to those. Your
> sounding
> > board for emotive terms related to your modernist
> views.
> > Ok, let's see about those....
> >
> > Labienus writes:
> > You're honestly telling me that you
> > would have no problem with slavery,
> >
> > OFS: Let's stop here for a moment. Slavery. Well,
> first
> > of all mi Labiene, slavery was quite a different
> animal
> > than the popular conception of the 'Uncle Tom'
> variety.
> > Slavery is obviously a practice that has a great
> many
> > negative connotations; much like say...oh I don't
> know...
> > client/patron perhaps? Slavery is a topic that has
> already
> > seen a vast amount of contentious discussion on
> this list
> > before; a situation which I don't wish to
> propagate. Since
> > you and others that continually harp on the usage
> of
> > this term *seem* to be unable to view historical
> > scenarios in their actual context
> > without applying modern interpretations, there is
> little
> > hope of making you understand the institution in
> question.
> >
> > Labienus:
> > the oppression of women,
> >
> > OFS: No exceptions. Remember my original
> statement?
> > Why must you assume that I would share your
> apparent
> > characteristic of viewing a civilization that
> existed
> > 2000 years ago through 21st century eyes? Roma
> Mater
>
=== message truncated ===


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Subject:	[novaroma] Computer Associates commercail
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:46:19 -0500

Has anyone seen the Computer Associates commercial with the Roman theme, as though the Roman empire existed till today?

QS


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:22:09 -0700 (PDT)

--- Iulia66198@-------- wrote:
> In a message dated Sun, 15 Apr 2001 8:15:26 PM
> Eastern Daylight Time, Patrick Ferguson
> <pvitruviusiulianus@--------> writes:
>
> <<Yes, I do see something that makes animals
> inferior to
> humans. They have no emotions>>
>
> Excuse me, but would you care to tell this to the
> dog I adopted from the shelter in 1990? A dog who
> still has not recovered from the abuse he received,
> apparently from someone else who considered him
> 'emotionless'? A dog who suffers from irreparable
> separation anxiety and who is still grieving the
> passing in February of his dog companion of 10
> years???
>
> <<Some people say that dogs have emotions and have
> unconditional love for their masters, but I doubt
> that
> that love would be so "unconditional" if the owner
> were no longer able to feed it.>>
>
> If you believe this, then you need to learn a bit
> more about dogs.
>
> I'm sorry you hold these views. It is no doubt a
> similar mindset which has made it possible to
> justify the atrocities committed against animal life
> on this planet, whether in a private home, the
> Colisseum, a research facility or a factory farm.
> It may also interest you to know that many of the
> people sitting in jail today for murder didn't start
> off their criminal careers murdering people. They
> started with the mistreatment/killing of animals and
> 'moved up.'
>
> Iulia Cassia
>
>

It just so happens that I do have a dog. He is
impatient and seems to think that the world is
centered around him. Even as a write this he is
barking. Yet I do not know what he is barking for.
He was let outside to use the bathroom 20 minutes ago.
And 10 minutes ago I saw to it that his food and
water dishes were full. We do not neglect him. Yet
he has no patients. My mom in fact gives him asprin
wraped in ham every day, as recommended by the vet for
his back problems. He is quite relieved to get this.
Yet once he has had it or before he has had it he will
bark for another whenever my mom is in the kitchen. I
*do* feel sorry that my dog is practicly, blind, deaf,
and getting more limp every day. And though I know
that this causes pains that he *can feel*, I do not
believe he has emotions. So I do know dogs.
*Perhaps* some dogs, such as yours, do have emotions.
But I say this with an extreme emphasis on *perhaps*.
In all my experience with dogs, I have had no reason
to believe that they have emotions.

As for other animals I will bring up other examples.
When I was a very young boy, we had a cat which we had
to return because, for no reason, she scratched my
right eye. We once had two bunnies. They were in the
same cage. Both were well fed and never mistreated.
When the weather became inclimate outside we would
bring them inside. There was no reason for it, but
one of the bunnies abused the other so often that we
had to give one of them up. A very similar thing
happened to some hampsters we had. The only pets I
have had that haven't had problems like this have been
ants (whom I have a great interest in and perhaps even
restpect for) and goldfish.

I hope I have made my point clear.

Valete optime :->,

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rebirth versus Reconstruction-Response to Labienus
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:27:33 -0500

Salvete Oppi Flacce Quiritesque

> OFS: Then good sir, before getting to the rest of my
> response, I might add another tension to that premise
> on which this mail was founded. -That tension would be
> the tension of one civis taking a very direct statement
> made by another civis and piling many vast
> interpretations upon it.

I've apparently touched something of a nerve here. My only point was
that, as a modern human who is used to modern conveniences and the
relative social freedoms of modern America, I suspect that you would
find the culture shock involved in being dropped into Roma Antiqua quite
uncomfortable. Please note the use of terms like, "I suspect," "I
rather doubt," and "I believe." These are all indicative of the fact
that I am entirely aware that what I write is based upon my own
suppositions and biases. You're quite welcome to believe that you would
be "quite happy" in Roma Antiqua (I am assuming you retain your modern
memories. If you don't, then your statement would apply equally to any
ancient culture.). I think you are, most likely, mistaken. Neither of
us will be able to prove his point, and it is a silly thing to argue
about.

> OFS: See above. I will grant you another example -perhaps
> more to the point since I'm not a major frequenter of the
> dentist's chair: Latrines. Public latrines a time honored
> tradition throughout the empire. So what about those? Would
> I prefer my cushy fan-enhanced private bathroom experience?
> Would I prefer to use my trusty Charmin instead of a 'sponge
> on a stick?' Or, assuming we *do* have the public latrines,
> do we still want them to blow their bilge into the Tiber,
> or do we want them to run into a modern sewage treatment
> plant?

You would be the one to answer those questions, at least as they pertain
to you. Note, BTW, that you are conflating your experience Roma Antiqua
in with questions about where we want to go as Nova Roma. Given that,
is it any wonder that I would conflate your statement about being happy
in Roma Antiqua with your desires for Nova Roma's future?

> OFS: Yes, I knew you would get to those. Your sounding
> board for emotive terms related to your modernist views.
> Ok, let's see about those....

They may be emotive to you. I am a fairly dispassionate man, and do not
invest them with much feeling, myself.

> OFS: Let's stop here for a moment. Slavery. Well, first
> of all mi Labiene, slavery was quite a different animal
> than the popular conception of the 'Uncle Tom' variety.

I am quite aware of what historians have to say about ancient Roman
slavery, and that it was most certainly not exactly equivalent to the
slavery practiced in the American South. However, slavery, in all its
forms, is predicated upon the idea that it is ethical to own another
human being. I find this usupportable. By claiming that you would be
"quite happy" in Roma Antiqua, you implied (to a degree) that you find
the institution at least acceptable.

> Slavery is obviously a practice that has a great many
> negative connotations; much like say...oh I don't know...
> client/patron perhaps?

The negative connotations are deserved.

> Slavery is a topic that has already
> seen a vast amount of contentious discussion on this list
> before; a situation which I don't wish to propagate. Since
> you and others that continually harp on the usage of
> this term *seem* to be unable to view historical
> scenarios in their actual context
> without applying modern interpretations, there is little
> hope of making you understand the institution in question.

My point was that slavery, as with the other things I raised, is not
acceptable in the context of the modern West. Those of you who argue
for pure (rather, as-pure-as-possible) historicity seem to fail to
realize that we are stuck with that context.

I have no problem looking at institutions in their historic context,
BTW. That I can't is an assumption on your part of the same order as
that which you accused me of at the beginning of your message.

> OFS: No exceptions. Remember my original statement?
> Why must you assume that I would share your apparent
> characteristic of viewing a civilization that existed
> 2000 years ago through 21st century eyes?

I do not assume such a thing, in part because I do not have such a
characteristic in the way that you seem to think that I do. My question
to you, poorly stated perhaps, was whether or not you would have no
problem with things like the oppression of women and slavery if you had
to live with them. Would you be "quite happy" dealing with them on a
day-to-day basis after living most of your life (yes, I am making an
assumption here that you didn't grow up in Kampuchea or the like) in a
place that did not have them? Your answer, apparently, is yes, because
you'd be within the context of ancient Roma and you're capable of
divorcing yourself from your (assumed on my part, perhaps erroneously)
upbringing.

> OFS: Yes, you can keep piling onto the et cetera list.
> A nice little term 'et cetera.' It allows one's point
> to be seemingly infinite.

It also allows one's lists to be shorter in the interests of a little
brevity, in order that one might come to the meat of one's posts in a
more timely fashion.

> Labienus:
> that you, like most
> people I know who make such statements,
>
> OFS: What type of people make 'such statements?' Those
> that disagree with you? That don't share your own
> particular vision of the world?

No. Those I know who make such statements. No more and no less, with
no judgement passed as to the worth of either the person who made the
statement or that person's views. Most people I know who make
statements like, "I would be quite happy to be living in X time and
place," do not mean that they would be quite happy to be among the poor
and oppressed of their chosen time and place.

> OFS: Two things. One, refer back to my initial statement.
> No 'buts' or exceptions. For clarification 'no buts or
> exceptions' means that a statement has no exceptions or
> alternate meanings.

Very well. You would be quite happy as either an emperor or one of the
slaves tasked with keeping the Cloaca Maxima flowing.

> Perhaps you should go back and reread my initial post.
> My role was not specified. I simply said Roma. Or
> more precisely, Roma between its founding and 305 CE. If I were
> to go back with my 'modern' ideals and my current mind set,
> I'd know enough to make it work, create an opportunity
<amputatio>
> To build on your previous example, I would know things
> for instance like calcium was good for strong teeth, that
> they need to be brushed and flossed (did you know that they
> had toothbrushes back then?) and that the fluoride mineral
> is good for reducing cavities.

I choose to avoid one of those endless debates about how effective or
ineffective modern knowledge might be in an ancient society. They just
go 'round and 'round without much purpose.

> If on the other hand, were I to go back *without*
> my 'modern' knowledge, then I wouldn't know the difference
> anyways since I would have no notion of a '21st century'
> world.

If you were to go back without your knowledge, then it wouldn't matter
when or where you wound up, as your new circumstance would be all that
you knew.

> Secondly, I am not of the school of thought that believes
> we've meaningfully 'evolved' over the last two thousand
> years. In fact quite the opposite; I think a darkness
> descended upon the western world with the ascension of Constantine
> ; a darkness that we only barely *started* coming out of in
> the very late 18th century.

There are several ways in which to evolve. Humankind has not evolved
physically much at all in its recorded history. Technologically, we
have come an immense distance. Socially, we have had our ups and our
downs, and I agree with you that the Middle Ages were, at least in the
West, one of the downs. Unlike you, I'd say that the 'darkness' began
to ebb in the Renaissance, primarily due to the popular acceptance of
the Classical age.

> The Roman world was quite a bit more advanced
> than our 'modern' sensibilities will allow us to admit. This included
> all major fields of study -from medicine, to science to all manner
> of technology. There's no good reason to suspect that we
> wouldn't have been walking on the moon in the 10th or 11th
> centuries (if not sooner,) had Roma been able to maintain
> its natural evolution.

I'd be a little more conservative, allowing for a moonshot by, perhaps,
the 16th century. The number 0 didn't reach Europe until the 1200s,
after all.

> Rome was also a place of opportunity. Slaves and women often
> ran affairs of state and enjoyed vast wealth and influence.
> Was this all good or evenly applied? No. Is this any sort
> of statement on what is right or wrong to do in *today's*
> world? No. But then you might
> do well to remember that I am not making a 'goodness' or
> 'badness' case here in any sort of 'modern' context.

Yes, fine. But we're talking about Nova Roma, which exists in a modern
context. To state that you'd be quite happy in Roma Antiqua implies
that you'd be quite happy if Nova Roma were to mimic Roma Antiqua
exactly. It was that implication that I took exception with, and
nothing more.

> Would I 'rather' go back as someone of wealth and
> influence? Well sure! Would I 'expect' it? Absolutely not.

That was my point exactly.

> Labienus writes:
> I would argue that there was little that was 'glorious'
>
> OFS: You can 'state' that things were or were not
> 'glorious,' but you haven't 'argued' them other than
> saying that this or that thing was 'bad.'

My apologies for not including the entirety of the argument. Note, BTW,
that I said, "I would argue..." and not "I am arguing...". Here, in
brief is the argument.

Glorious, adjective
1. Having or deserving glory; famous.
2. Conferring or advancing glory: a glorious achievement.
3. Characterized by great beauty and splendor; magnificent: a glorious
sunset.
4. Delightful; wonderful: had a glorious visit with old friends.

While the first definition of glorious could be used to describe just
about anything doing with Roma, the second is controversial when
applied to things like slavery (because glory has multiple definitions
as well, some doing with fame and some doing with being good), and the
latter two definitely do not apply to things which are bad. Therefore,
due to the connotations associated with the word, I argue that bad
things are not glorious. They are, instead, infamous.

> Labienus states:
> > in Roma
> > Antiqua's bad aspects, and that Nova Roma states explicitly that
> > we are attempting to recreate the *best* of ancient pagan Rome.
>
> OFS: *EXACTLY* my original point. 'Best' is subjective.

That's my point, too. As Roma Antiqua had that which was best about it,
it also had that which was worst. You have stated that you want Roma,
warts and all (to borrow one of Consul Vedius' expressions). I have
stated that I would prefer to remove at least the worst of the warts. I
fully admit that my perception of good and bad are subjective, and that
we will have to work together to establish a consensus.

> I intend to stand by historical accuracy as much as
> possible, but ONLY to the extent that it makes sense
> for the welfare of our population. Obviously we are
> discussing a 21st century institution within NR and
> NOT antiqua, to which I was *specifically* referring.

This was exactly my point, though I am more lenient when it comes to
historical accuracy.

> OFS: Actually, with some of the emotive terminology
> used I would have pegged you more in the 'second' option.
> But of course, using my own point -as we do not know
> each other personally this is an assumption which I will
> freely correct if mistaken.

I did not intend my words to be emotive. If you know of a less
controversial term for slavery, I would like to hear it. Perhaps we
could refer to slaves as the 'freedom impaired'? (As Foghorn Leghorn
would say, "That's a joke, I say, a *joke*, son!")

Note, BTW, an apparent (as in, it appears to me, and I might be
mistaken) bias on your part. You seem to claim that those who would
prefer a modern and, to use your term, "socialist" Nova Roma are
incapable of acceptably rational thought or of understanding history and
looking at historical institutions in context. This is not necessarily
the case.

> OFS: Well now! First of all, I haven't seen neo-nazi code words
> used anywhere, but will trust you on that point.

Do note that I did not mean to imply that everyone in the fourth group
was a neo-Nazi. It is quite possible to be conservative without being
fascist, racist, et cetera.

> To a *very*
> limited extent, I would agree that there are those that
> would come here to escape their current vision of their macronational
> world, to achieve some sense of personal power that they don't
> enjoy in the macronational world or to try and get away
> with doing or saying things that they never could in the
> macronational world. -On these latter points, I would
> fully agree that I've seen this from time to time. Something that
> any 'alternative' society such as ours will have to endure.

My main point was that we have both 'leftists' and 'rightists', and that
neither is necessarily any more historical than the other. There is a
tendency to conflate the right with historicity and hard, rational
thought, and the left with modernity and fuzzy thinking. Neither
assumption is necessarily grounded in fact.

> While we're on the subject though, let's take a look
> at 'political correctness.' In and of itself is fine, when it
> serves as a tool to make 'right' some form of actual injustice.

I agree with you entirely here. As I said, it is an unhealthy
over-extension of the desire to be inclusive, democratic, and fair.

> OFS: I partially agree with you. Not all history is
> a 'lie' however, in the absolute sense. History is
> a mixture of written 'fact' and interpretation. It
> is the vast number of interpretations that are
> placed on history which one has to sift through to
> have a chance of forming any sort of semi-accurate
> picture. That is why for instance, I read as many
> different accounts of a particular event/time period
> as possible so that my own opinion/interpretation
> can be formed.

As do I. And, having read what tip of the iceberg of historical
treatises I can, I make an opinion formed from my own experiences and
biases, attempting to recognize those biases for what they are and
realizing that the depth of my ignorance is immense. All human
knowledge is biased and incomplete, and all history is therefore biased
and incomplete.

> Going back to my original premise, I can't think
> of any better way to 'know' a culture than to live
> it in all its strengths and weaknesses. In my wistful
> example for instance, I would of course have no
> way of knowing how I would go back, whether or not
> the period would be ideal, what my role would be or
> anything of the sort. I also have to allow for the
> possibility that I would get there and say: "oh,
> this is awful! This isn't at all like the books say!"

So, you can't really say with certainty that you'd be quite happy, after
all. (Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.)

> But not having been there, I don't really know in
> any 'absolute' sense. The same premise could be
> applied to visiting another country. One can't go
> to another country and start decrying all the local
> practices -'good' or 'bad' simply because it offends
> one's 'modern' sensibilities. One must deal with
> the culture, laws and reality of the country in which
> one lives or visits.

One can most certainly make judgements about another culture. I find
the treatment of women in modern Afghanistan to be deplorable, and have
no problem making such a judgement. What you are suggesting, at least
at its logical extreme, is cultural relativism, which leads inevitably
to moral relativism. If a culture engages in practices which offend my
sense of morality and ethics, then I will pass judgement upon those
practices. I do not allow this to interfere with my ability to
appreciate that which I find laudable in any given culture, nor does it
make me believe that those who act out those practices are evil people.
However, when one chooses to be a moral and ethical person, one must
choose a system of morality and ethics by which to live. This choice,
of necessity, involves rejecting that which is opposed to one's chosen
system. At the same time, I admit that I am fallable, and I do my best
to keep an open mind and revise my system of values if it seems
appropriate.

> OFS: Again agreed. Nova Roma is not antiqua, a point
> I've openly declared in previous posts. I don't think
> for a moment that there's anyone who really, *truly*
> feels that NR will ever be anything ultra-close to
> antiqua.

Essentially, then, our viewpoints are not far off. We only disagree on
the degree to which one should bend in order to accomodate the ancient
practice.

> OFS: Your history with NR runs much longer than mine, so am
> again more than content to take you at your word on the
> legislative aspect. Personally, I see most of our reconstruction
> here as needing to be more cultural than legislative. For
> the record, nothing in my original post was intended to state
> or imply that I favor passing 'let's behave like Romans'
> leges.

Therein lies another related tension. Many of us here have an idea of
what it means to behave like a Roman. However, those ideas are not
alike, and it is only through the synergy of our various concepts of
Romanitas that our fuller community will develop. And yet, as modern as
most of us are, we need to apply some degree of controls to avoid
straying too far afield. The answer, I think, lies in our various
sodalitates and other cultural pursuits, which will hopefully evolve
into our most effective tools for educating ourselves about Romanitas
and Roman pursuits.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach
conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant."
-Helen Keller

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Computer Associates commercail
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:55:38 -0700

Salve Quinte,

Actually I haven't, but it would be a *most welcome* change
from the ones I've been enduring of late :-)

Bene vale,
Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: Quintus Sertorius [mailto:quintus-sertorius@--------]
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 5:46 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Computer Associates commercail


Has anyone seen the Computer Associates commercial with the Roman theme, as
though the Roman empire existed till today?

QS


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Computer Associates commercail
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:37:34 -0500

It's GREAT!! We are a beta test market here in Winnipeg because of our
diverse demographic, so we get all the commercials first!! I can not wait
till you all get it! Makes you think.

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 8:55 PM
Subject: RE: [novaroma] Computer Associates commercail


> Salve Quinte,
>
> Actually I haven't, but it would be a *most welcome* change
> from the ones I've been enduring of late :-)
>
> Bene vale,
> Oppius
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Quintus Sertorius [mailto:quintus-sertorius@--------]
> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 5:46 PM
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] Computer Associates commercail
>
>
> Has anyone seen the Computer Associates commercial with the Roman theme,
as
> though the Roman empire existed till today?
>
> QS
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Computer Associates commercail
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:08:21 -0700

Salve Quinte,

Well, no offence to anyone among us who may work for CA,
but our company and several companies that I work with
employ untold dozens of former CA employees due to CA's
practices and work environment. (Hopefully CA is only advocating the
'best of' the Roman Republic :-) <yes, Quirites an attempted
joke to lighten the current discussions.>

Bene vale,
Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: Quintus Sertorius [mailto:quintus-sertorius@--------]
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 6:38 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Computer Associates commercail


It's GREAT!! We are a beta test market here in Winnipeg because of our
diverse demographic, so we get all the commercials first!! I can not wait
till you all get it! Makes you think.

QS

<snipped>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: A Boy Named Sue
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 02:24:14 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, lsicinius@-------- wrote:
> --- In novaroma@--------, Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@-------->
> wrote:
> > Salve L. Sicinius,
> >
> > Please accept my apologies for not responding
> > immediately; I am still collating my reply. I should
> > have it to you by Sunday evening (EST) if that is
> > acceptable to you.
> >
> > Iasonvs Serenvs
>
> Salve Iasonvs Serenvs,
>
> There is no need of an apology. Sunday will be fine. Thank you for
> your assistance, and please thank your mother for me.
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus

> Salve Iasonvs Serenvs,

Did you happen to get that information? The recent events in Britannia
have increased it's importance.
Drusus

Subject:	[novaroma] Advertisement
From:	"Mark Bird" <markbird@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:21:22 +1000

Are we able to get a web file of this so as we can circulate amongst the
Nova community - as I would love to see it in Oz - I would not be concerned
about copyright as this is a well developed practice by large advertising
agencies to generate additional circulation of the Ad...

Marcus Sentius Claudius

Province Of Oz

-----Original Message-----
From:
Sent: None
Subject:


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<html><body>
<tt>
It's GREAT!! We are a beta test market here in Winnipeg because of our<BR>
diverse demographic, so we get all the commercials first!! I can not
wait<BR>
till you all get it! Makes you think.<BR>
<BR>
QS<BR>
<BR>
----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@--------><BR>
To: <novaroma@--------><BR>
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 8:55 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: [novaroma] Computer Associates commercail<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Salve Quinte,<BR>
><BR>
> Actually I haven't, but it would be a *most welcome* change<BR>
> from the ones I've been enduring of late :-)<BR>
><BR>
> Bene vale,<BR>
> Oppius<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Quintus Sertorius [mailto:quintus-sertorius@--------]<BR>
> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 5:46 PM<BR>
> To: novaroma@--------<BR>
> Subject: [novaroma] Computer Associates commercail<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Has anyone seen the Computer Associates commercial with the Roman
theme,<BR>
as<BR>
> though the Roman empire existed till today?<BR>
><BR>
> QS<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<BR>
><BR>
><BR>

Subject:	[novaroma] Reconstruction/Rebirth
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 02:43:21 -0000

snipped for brevity......

T Labienius Fortunatus wrote:

Therein lies another created tension. Many of us have an idea of what
it means to behave like a Roman. However, these ideas are not alike,
and it is only through the synergy of our various concepts of
Romanitas that our fuller community will develop. And yet, as modern
as most of us are, we need to apply some degree of controls to avoid
straying too far afield. The answer, I think, lies in our various
sodalitates and other cultural pursuits, which will hopefully evolve
into our most effective tools for educating ourselves about Romanitas
and Roman pursuits........

*******Salvete Honoured Tribune et Omnes:

What a lovely statement, in my opinion, and very reflective of my
visions. How very eloquently put, Sir. Ave!!

I feel too, that it is through positive interaction, that is, sharing
each others' common beliefs and interests, that we will produce the
strong sense of community imperative to the growth of Nova Roma.

I feel that we could argue into infinity the exingencies of what is
proper, ethical, and practical with respect to applying the practices
of Roma antiquita into our daily life. Of all 800 some odd Nova
Romani, we have 800 some odd philosophers. Indeed we would never
completely agree on everything.

Perhaps Governor Procopious is on the right track; we could assemble a
committee to produce something like a statement of "Articles of
Purpose", or "Articles of Belief" which would solidify to our
citizenship and to the world exactly what it is about Roma Antiquita
that we praise, and those things which we do not.

Such a statement could be reviewed and approved by the Senate, the
Pontifex Maximus, and posted on the website to the public.

I am of the belief that if we have not applauded any evolvement or
technological development in over 1500 years, our Roman ancestors
would laugh at us; if we have not learned from their mistakes, as well
as adopt their successes, they would be disappointed. So we should
not be wary of our modern developments. Certainly we should not treat
these as an intrusion on our celebration of Romanitas; the fact that
we hold their virtues and culture so dear is probably the factors they
would applaud the most.

Procopius also pointed out the basics of virtue; probably more
attention to those is indicated to build a strong sense of community,
and to make a stronger statement to the world about Mater Nova Roma.

I thank you for your reading time with respect to my thoughts.

Valete,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo

Subject:	[novaroma] Nova Britannia Field Trip Reminder!
From:	"C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@-------->
Date:	Mon, 16 Apr 2001 22:52:42 -0400

Salvete!

I just wanted to remind everyone about the upcoming Nova Britannia trip to
the Boston Museum of Fine Arts on Saturday, April 28th. Anyone interested,
please RSVP to me either on this list or to my email
shinjikun@-------- So far we have 3 "defintes" (including myself), and
3 "maybes" so we should have at least as good a turn out as out last trip in
March. Come and meet your fellow civies, and support Nova Roma! For more
details check out my earlier post, or contact me at the aforementioned
e-mail address. I hope to see a lot of you there!!

Valete!

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Legatus of Massachusetts
Pilus Prior Secunda Cohors
Legio VI Victrix

ICQ# 28924742

"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." - Vegetius




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: A Boy Named Sue
From:	Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@-------->
Date:	Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:58:47 -0700 (PDT)

Salve Sicinius Drusus,

Do you have an alternate address, as i have tried
several times to forward to you the information you
requested, but have received a mailer-daemon on each
occasion?

Vale,

Ias. Serenvs




>
> > Salve Iasonvs Serenvs,
>
> Did you happen to get that information? The recent
> events in Britannia
> have increased it's importance.
> Drusus
>
>


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:02:18 -0400

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus scripsit:

<<The belief that nature, animals, and such ought to be
tamed are inferior to humans and are here for -human
use.

I agree with this completely. Conservation ought to
be taken only for the sake of human enjoyment and/or
needs. I see no proof that animals and all other life
forms are equal to humans.>>

Um, WE are animals. We are very dependent on the web of life, and to try to
put ourselves somehow apart from that has led to the kind of environmental
disasters which are threatening our water and air quality right now, causing
the ozone depletion, and possible global warming.

The interconnectiveness of life is a pretty basic tenet of most pagan belief
systems (including the Religio Roma) so I'd expect to see that in any
reconstruction of the ancients.

Blessed Be
& Valete,
Helena Galeria

Subject:	[novaroma] Rebirth/Reconstruction
From:	truthsearcher13@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 02:56:36 -0000

A. Spurius Hadrianus Omnibus S.D

So many interesting things said back and forth in these postings, all
with their "rightness" considering point of view. Still, I wonder if
the approach should be on the particular this or thats? I would
suggest that we turn not to the hard and fast rules, ways etc of any
certain time in Rome, for they all changed, but rather to the Virtues.
In, my opinion it is the virtues that made Rome great. And, the
virtues remain the same whether we are in 1AD or sitting at our
computers in the here and now. I would suggest that by looking at
each particular concern in the light of one or more of the virtues
we would not find our answers.
Vale

Subject:	[novaroma] error in post 2104
From:	truthsearcher13@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 03:10:34 -0000

Aulus Spurius Hadrianus Omnibus S.D.
In the last line, I obviously (I hope) meant we would find, or
perhaps thinging, ...would we not find?

Many pardons
Vale

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:30:56 -0400

Salvete,
Draco scripsit:
<<- bloodsports
- slavery
- political murders
- conquest
- racism
- oligarchism
- sadism
- Interpretatio Romana
- power madness
- decadence (orgies)

I hope you find the above list not acceptable in a modern, 21st century
nation. And if you do, care to explain me why.>>

Aw, what's wrong with orgies? ;)

Unfortunately, most of the things on that list can be found in most nations
now, with the exception of slavery :(
Doesn't say much for modern life. At least they aren't 'legal' in most
places.

Valete,
Helena Galeria

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:54:14 -0700 (PDT)

--- Teleri ferch Nyfain <rckovak@--------> wrote:
> Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus scripsit:
>
> <<The belief that nature, animals, and such ought to
> be
> tamed are inferior to humans and are here for -human
> use.
>
> I agree with this completely. Conservation ought to
> be taken only for the sake of human enjoyment and/or
> needs. I see no proof that animals and all other
> life
> forms are equal to humans.>>
>
> Um, WE are animals. We are very dependent on the
> web of life, and to try to
> put ourselves somehow apart from that has led to the
> kind of environmental
> disasters which are threatening our water and air
> quality right now, causing
> the ozone depletion, and possible global warming.

Biologically I agree that we ARE animals. However,
unlike animals, we have emotions (you can look at some
of my earlier posts in this thread (I think) for
reasons I have for my belief.) And it is because of
these environmental problems that I think conservation
ought to be used. So I partially but don't agree with
you.

>
> The interconnectiveness of life is a pretty basic
> tenet of most pagan belief
> systems (including the Religio Roma) so I'd expect
> to see that in any
> reconstruction of the ancients.

This (the Religio Romana) is not my area of expertise,
so I will have to stand on different grounds. As far
as I know, Romans did believe that nature ought to be
tamed. This can be gathered from the spectacles in
the colleseum and the fact that they were excellent
city builders. But I must admit that I am no expert
here and you could be right. Though for now I will
still retain my formerly stated beleifs.

>
> Blessed Be
> & Valete,
> Helena Galeria
>
>
>
>
>

Optime valete :->!

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Rebirth versus Reconstruction: "What is the best of Rome?"
From:	"Nick R. Ramos Jr." <nramos@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 04:02:58 -0000

Salvete, omnes!

I have been following this debate with some interest, and I would
like to comment on a specific inaccuracy:

> > > -Upward social mobility.
> > >
> > > Through the army, even non Romans could gain
> > benefits
> > > such as citizenship or land. This is more than
> > > someone in the third world could do now.
> > >
> >
> > True.
>
> Thank you again.

With all due respect, and very much not intending to wave any
macronational flags - US citizenship can be obtained by serving a pre-
determined length of time in the US armed forces. Many Filipinos and
Mexican nationals can attest to that fact; in fact, when my mother-in-
law was naturalized here in San Diego, two Ukrainians who had been
serving in the US Marine Corps also became citizens. Granted, for
some third world countries, this is not an alternative - but it does
exist.

I will put in some 2 sestercii worth on this subject - I personally
have been attracted to Roma Antiqua because of the IDEALS that were
born there. These may not have always been attained, but many noble
attempts to reach them are recorded in history (and while that record
may be subjective, it can also contain some very hard facts; even
legends may contain truth, as Schiellemann can attest to :-)). We
ourselves reach to those ideals with varying degrees of success; and
although we may at times fail, it is that noble struggle that which
makes this endeavour worthwhile.

Optime Vale, et Iuppiter nos protegas!
Marius Cornelius Scipio

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Computer Associates commercial
From:	"Julilla Sempronia Magna" <julilla@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 04:04:00 -0000

Salve, Quinte!

I just saw that commercial tonight and loved it! I wish I had it on
tape.


---
cura et valeas,

@____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
|||| http://julilla.tripod.com/
Daily Life in Ancient Rome
@____@ julilla@--------
||||

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Computer Associates commercial
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:08:23 -0700

Ave,

I wonder if it is on adcritic.com.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julilla Sempronia Magna" <julilla@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 9:04 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Computer Associates commercial


> Salve, Quinte!
>
> I just saw that commercial tonight and loved it! I wish I had it on
> tape.
>
>
> ---
> cura et valeas,
>
> @____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
> |||| http://julilla.tripod.com/
> Daily Life in Ancient Rome
> @____@ julilla@--------
> ||||
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 00:48:50 EDT

On 4/16/01 8:22 PM Patrick Ferguson (pvitruviusiulianus@--------) wrote:

SNIPPED

>..... The only pets I
>have had that haven't had problems like this have been
>ants (whom I have a great interest in and perhaps even
>restpect for) and goldfish.
>
>I hope I have made my point clear.
>
>Valete optime :->,
>
>Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,
>
>Civis Novae Romae.
>

Indeed, I think you have made your point clear - you are best suited for
the company of ants. Feel free to hang about here until you locate Nova
Anthill, but please stay out of the sugar bowl.

Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus

(I'm sorry, Draco, but I just couldn't stand any more of it.)


purgamentum init, exit purgamentum.

(Garbage in, garbage out.)

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 00:48:52 EDT

Salve Helena Galeria

Are you not aware of the persistence and even growth of slavery in many
"modern" societies - including the United States. It's not legal, but
it's still there.

Perhaps a good role for Nova Romans would be in helping to expose and
stamp out slavery.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.


On 4/16/01 10:30 PM Teleri ferch Nyfain (rckovak@--------) wrote:

>Salvete,
>Draco scripsit:
><<- bloodsports
>- slavery
>- political murders
>- conquest
>- racism
>- oligarchism
>- sadism
>- Interpretatio Romana
>- power madness
>- decadence (orgies)
>
>I hope you find the above list not acceptable in a modern, 21st century
>nation. And if you do, care to explain me why.>>
>
>Aw, what's wrong with orgies? ;)
>
>Unfortunately, most of the things on that list can be found in most nations
>now, with the exception of slavery :(
>Doesn't say much for modern life. At least they aren't 'legal' in most
>places.
>
>Valete,
>Helena Galeria
>


certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Attempt to understand all the institutions and voting processes
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 16 Apr 2001 22:00:28 -0700

Salve Gai Noviodune!

Just a quick -'great work, nice job!' Post.
Excellent chart and very helpful.

Bene vale,
Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: G. Noviodunus Ferriculus [mailto:Gaius.Noviodunus@--------]
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 11:50 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Attempt to understand all the institutions and voting
processes


Salvete!

Since I am here, I'm completely lost with Quaestors and Senators and
Comitia and stuff. Where does everyone come? Who is elected by who?

I crawled through the constitution and came out with the following
chart: http://www.iseli.org/novaroma/institutiones.htm Feel free to
comment. Offlist for smal details, on the list if you feel your
contribution is of more general nature.

Gratias vobis ago,
--
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 16 Apr 2001 22:34:28 -0700 (PDT)

--- LSergAust@-------- wrote:
>
>
> On 4/16/01 8:22 PM Patrick Ferguson
> (pvitruviusiulianus@--------) wrote:
>
> SNIPPED
>
> >..... The only pets I
> >have had that haven't had problems like this have
> been
> >ants (whom I have a great interest in and perhaps
> even
> >restpect for) and goldfish.
> >
> >I hope I have made my point clear.
> >
> >Valete optime :->,
> >
> >Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,
> >
> >Civis Novae Romae.
> >
>
> Indeed, I think you have made your point clear - you
> are best suited for
> the company of ants. Feel free to hang about here
> until you locate Nova
> Anthill, but please stay out of the sugar bowl.
>
> Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
>
> (I'm sorry, Draco, but I just couldn't stand any
> more of it.)
>
>
> purgamentum init, exit purgamentum.
>
> (Garbage in, garbage out.)
>
>

First of all I see no need for personal insults,
seeing as how this adds nothing to the debate. Also,
since you seem to be unaware of this, Patricius
Vitruvius Iulianus, me, and not Draco, was the one who
wrote this.

I do not know why, nor do I know if it is appropriate,
but I will explain my position on ants. They seem
(along with any other communal insect) impressive, to
me at least, for having enough collective sense and
logic to create technology use natural resources and
form into colonies. This is very similar to human
behavior as a whole.

I would also like to add that I realize the irony of
pointing out something that doesn't add to debate
while writing things that have the same quality :-)!


Valete optime :->!

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

Subject:	[novaroma] Rebirth versus Reconstruction-Final Thoughts
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:20:23 -0700

Salvete Quiritibus!

Well, again -the time has come for me to sign off
this particular thread for now. Time for Oppi to
move on to something else. Some of the discussion
on this topic has been wonderful; some of it has been
well...'interesting' seems polite.

Other than a few on-target points, I think that
my original idea was lost or changed. The portions
of the idea which seem best carried forward -'what
is the best' have been responded to elsewhere in
the start of a related, but different thread. I had
hoped that we might want to hop on the bandwagon, have
us all make a *best of* list and discuss that as
a means of understanding our miscellaneous viewpoints.

Unfortunately, we have discussed handguns, murders,
animal feelings/rights/abuse/emotions, the usual comment or
two about slavery, baby killing and I forget what all
else. To clarify my final original point: "In general,
I favor a strong historical reconstruction, but I also
understand that we have different realities in
NR" has hopefully been made, take it as you will.
Of course, there was an entirely 'wistful' component
as well about my desire to travel to Antiqua;
but as Labienus aptly pointed out, it does little
good to argue this too heavily because alas -I
have no time machine.

To Labienus: I say that I did in fact misconstrue
some of the wording in your original response.
For that, I apologize. The reason for my strong
reaction at the onset of the post was because I
was also taking *general* exception on a global
level to the way that we all at times misunderstand
each other. After your excellent and thorough
response, I feel that my understanding of your
point of view is much clearer, where you're
coming from has been crystallized and in reading
your response in its entirety, I find that
we likely agree on more points than we disagree.
The spirit of Concordia abounds. So I simply say
-gratias multas and I look immensely forward to
talking with you more in the future!

To Gnaeus Salix: your excellent treatment
of Republican-era Roma deserves more thorough
response and discussion and I will likely
respond to that privately. As always, you bring
up a number of good points. It may take me a
day or two (am not going to be posting as much
over the next few days due to my workload,) but
rest assured I will get back to you.

To Formosanus: I very much enjoyed the first
portion of your response, which dealt with the
realities of time travel and some of the
practicalities of same. From the second paragraph
onwards however, I'll not comment.

To Iasonvs Serenvs: Though we disagreed on some
points, your overall post I felt was excellent.
Your points regarding our identity and difficulty
in balancing our relationship with Roma Mater
were just *spot on*. -Gratias multas! I am
indeed glad that you choose to continue to come
to this page every day and hope you continue
to do so. The sheer breadth of our collective
insights, thoughts and opinions can take us
a very long way indeed if harnessed correctly.

To Patricius Vitruvius: I very much appreciate
you taking the original thread into a new and
more manageable context of "what we all like
about ancient Roma.' Some of the other things
you have said, I think have been intentionally
or unintentionally misconstrued
and some other things you have said; well it's probably
best to just say this in response: be careful what
you introduce to the mainlist lest you live in
'interesting times.' :-) :-) As you have seen,
emotionally-charged issues can produce some
very unpredictable (and predictable) results.
I look forward to continuing the portion of
the thread that deals specifically with 'what
we like about antiqua' -in the positive sense.

To Procopious: Your interjection of the virtues
into the discussion was refreshing. Though I don't
personally believe that in and of themselves
adherence to the virtues solves all of our issues,
(and I know that's not what you were trying to
say, this is just my particular point,) adherence
nevertheless is a key basis from which we must
all start from -and return to throughout our
communications with one another.

Gratias multas for the fine discussion!

Bene valete,
Oppius

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] What is the best of Rome?
From:	"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:24:20 +0200

Patrick Ferguson wrote:


>>-Sounder nutrition

>>

>>I agree that this point is not necessarily a public

>>matter (it's up to

>>everyone what he/she wants to eat. However I think

>>the Government should

>>encourage to eat like the Romans. In besides the

>>recipes of Apulei, that


Of course I meant Apicius, not Apuleius :-(



>>were mostly used for the cena, we should be aware

>>that the prandium was

>>often cheese with bread and raw fruits. I would

>>consider a Nova Romanus

>>who is eating junk food
>>not to be respectful

>>of Ancient Rome.

>>

>

> Good, but impractical.


Why? is it so hard to find cheese and raw fruits in your shops?


>

>>-Bilinguism

>>

>>The Romans had good schools. They learnt to speak

>>and write both in

>>Latin and in Greek, not to mention other italic

>>dialects. This should be

>>no different in Nova Roma. While our official

>>language is de facto

>>English (or even de jure? - don't know) we should be

>>able to speak at

>>least another wide-spread language fluently

>>(Spanish, German, French,

>>Russian) and why not a third one? Knowing several

>>languages is an

>>excellent mean to understand other people. I didn't

>>mention Latin but

>>those who can "speak" it fluently are blessed by the

>>gods. But could be

>>nice if our institutions also promoted the study of

>>the latin language.

>>Don't understand my wrong. I don't want it to be a

>>condition to be

>>admitted as citizen, but bilinguism should

>>definitely be promoted by the

>>government.

>>

>

> I am not so sure about this one. Bilingualism is

> fine. But I don't think that I should *need* to be

> able to speak another language in addition to my

> native one to get around my own country.


I'm not talking of a language "to get around" in your country, but a
language that would broaden your view. Although I think it would be
excellent for you to know Spanish to "get around" in your country. I
emphasize my "I think" and don't read it as a "you must".

> I do think

> that if someone (including myself) were to move into

> another country that they should learn the language of

> that country rather than simply retain my own.


What wise words!

> This

> would encourage division within citys on

> cultural/language lines.

Division within cities? What a nonsense! I'm staying in a billingual
city. You can go in a shop and address the vendor in either language...
I don't see a division line. And I was referring to the Roman world
where scholars knew *equally* latin and greek. What were Caesar's last
words? "kai sy technon" or "tu quoque mi fili"?

vale bene,

--
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Computer Associates commercial
From:	"Mark Bird" <markbird@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 16:26:21 +1000

Anyone found a copy on the net yet ???

Marcus Sentius Claudius
-----Original Message-----
From:
sentto-1520-21012-987480502-markbird=waterbyrdfilmz.com.au@--------
om
[mailto:sentto-1520-21012-987480502-markbird=waterbyrdfilmz.com.au@--------
nelist.com]On Behalf Of L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
Sent: Tuesday, 17 April 2001 14:08
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Computer Associates commercial


Ave,

I wonder if it is on adcritic.com.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julilla Sempronia Magna" <julilla@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 9:04 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Computer Associates commercial


> Salve, Quinte!
>
> I just saw that commercial tonight and loved it! I wish I had it on
> tape.
>
>
> ---
> cura et valeas,
>
> @____@ Julilla Sempronia Magna
> |||| http://julilla.tripod.com/
> Daily Life in Ancient Rome
> @____@ julilla@--------
> ||||
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Subject:	[novaroma] Gentium problem
From:	gaiuscoriolanus@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 06:35:14 -0000

Salvete omnes

There is one issue, I guess we must think about. What is NR intent
with situation about gens to the future?

Each new citizen has got chance to create his own gens.
It is legal and democratic but on the other hand it will be good to
make some steps to improve it.

There is about three hundred gentes in NR today. About half of them
have got only 1 memeber. I know, that new citizens are still comig,
but if it will continue this way there will be more and more one man
families. And family of one man is far from roman traditional close
tied family which is stronger in sel-assertion.

As I said it will be neccessary to say stop sometime in the future.
BUT
Is it legal to make it or not?
How it will correspond with NR constitution?
Are there different ways to solve this issue?
Or is today's situation acceptable for NR for ever?

I don't want to suggest any restriction, I only want to know how it
will seem in close or far future.


valete
Gaius Marcius Coriolanus

Subject:	AmeriCa - was Re: [novaroma] Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:07:56 +0200

Salve Labiene Fortunate atque T. Octavi Pie

> What I'm trying to say, is that not everyone using that term is
> neo-Nazi, some of us may be swedes...:)

... or Germans. ;o)

> And yes,
> I'm blond. And blue-eyed. You've got a problem with that? :) ))

I remember it is written that L. Cornelius Sulla Felix cos 665 auc was
blond and blue-eyed - but "definitely not Swedish"! ;o)

Bene valete

Lucilla Cornelia Cinna
Quaestrix C. Flavio Diocletiano Praetori Urbano


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Subject:	[novaroma] RE: Building Name
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:15:29 +0200

Salve iterum mi Senti!

Well, here are the specific ideas at least:

Film spectacles = Spectacula cinematographica
Films = Pelliculae
Television = Televisio
Video (tape)s = Taeniae magnetoscopiae
Multimedia = Instrumenta communicationis multiplex

Now, a film studio is a Technyphion cinematographicum.
It seems to me that everything you are doing is cinematographic in
some way, i.e. it all has to do with moving pictures, which is
exactly what "cinematographicum" means.

A cinematographeum is a movie theatre (cinema), which you are not (I
suppose), but we could say "cinematographorium" to refer to a place
for doing cinematography in general. That help?

Cinematographandum iocundum! (Happy filming!)

Vale!

Formosanus

Subject: RE: Building Name

The media company is a short term in Australia to encompass companies
that produce Film, Television and Videos. We also produce videos as
well as multimedia.


Vale

Marcus Sentius Claudius

_________________________________________________
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, Aedilis Plebeius Novae Romae
Amicus Dignitatis; Scriba Censorius
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Moderator Indicis protoprovincialis NR_Venediae
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
____________________________________________________
Memento Idus Martias - non omnino bene Respublica se habet.
(Remember the Ides of March - it is not all well with the Republic.)
____________________________________________________

All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph in the world is for
enough good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
___________________________________________________

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] RE: Building Name
From:	"Mark Bird" <markbird@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 17:49:33 +1000

Thank you so much Formosanus!!!

Greatly appreciated - I owe you one..

Vale

Marcus Sentius Claudius


-----Original Message-----
From:
sentto-1520-21022-987491763-markbird=waterbyrdfilmz.com.au@--------
om
[mailto:sentto-1520-21022-987491763-markbird=waterbyrdfilmz.com.au@--------
nelist.com]On Behalf Of M. Apollonius Formosanus
Sent: Tuesday, 17 April 2001 17:15
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] RE: Building Name


Salve iterum mi Senti!

Well, here are the specific ideas at least:

Film spectacles = Spectacula cinematographica
Films = Pelliculae
Television = Televisio
Video (tape)s = Taeniae magnetoscopiae
Multimedia = Instrumenta communicationis multiplex

Now, a film studio is a Technyphion cinematographicum.
It seems to me that everything you are doing is cinematographic in
some way, i.e. it all has to do with moving pictures, which is
exactly what "cinematographicum" means.

A cinematographeum is a movie theatre (cinema), which you are not (I
suppose), but we could say "cinematographorium" to refer to a place
for doing cinematography in general. That help?

Cinematographandum iocundum! (Happy filming!)

Vale!

Formosanus

Subject: RE: Building Name

The media company is a short term in Australia to encompass companies
that produce Film, Television and Videos. We also produce videos as
well as multimedia.


Vale

Marcus Sentius Claudius

_________________________________________________
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, Aedilis Plebeius Novae Romae
Amicus Dignitatis; Scriba Censorius
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Moderator Indicis protoprovincialis NR_Venediae
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
____________________________________________________
Memento Idus Martias - non omnino bene Respublica se habet.
(Remember the Ides of March - it is not all well with the Republic.)
____________________________________________________

All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph in the world is for
enough good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
___________________________________________________

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: A Boy Named Sue
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:00:35 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@-------->
wrote:
> Salve Sicinius Drusus,
>
> Do you have an alternate address, as i have tried
> several times to forward to you the information you
> requested, but have received a mailer-daemon on each
> occasion?
>
> Vale,
>
> Ias. Serenvs
>

john@--------

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Computer Associates commercial
From:	Marcus Papirius Justus <papirius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 05:15:20 -0400

At 04:26 PM 17/04/2001 +1000, you wrote:
>Anyone found a copy on the net yet ???


http://www.cai.com/hellotomorrow/

mpj
(if it's out there, I can find it)

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Rebirth versus Reconstruction: "What is the best of Rome?"
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:38:43 -0300 (BRT)

The best of Rome (for me)
- Political System from the Republic:
mixed : direct democracy for voting the laws, representative for electing
the magistrates, oligarchic for the reference, consultative body.
- Supranationality from the late Empire:
Each citizen is both (well for non-Romans (city)) citizen of Rome and of
its own city, able to hold magistratures in both places.
- Religious tolerance : All gods are gods and if they have near to same
attributes they are the same just worshipped with another name. All
religions are accepted as long as they are not intolerant, or confined if
intolerant are confined to a specific nation (Jews for ex.)

Manius Villius Limitanus

Pr. Michel Loos | Phone: 55 11 818 3810 p. 216
Inst. de Quimica USP | Fax: 55 11 815 5579
PO Box 26077 05599-970 Săo Paulo, S SP
Brazil

Subject:	[novaroma] Call For Quaestor
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:44:11 -0400

Flavius Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.

With the resignation of tribune Quintus Sertorius from the position of
rogator, a vacancy has been created. Any cives wishing to run for rogator
(the election will likely be held in early May), please contact the consuls
off-list (consuls@--------).

Is anyone else getting tired of these constant elections? Maybe it's time to
let the Senate appoint replacements earlier in the year than September...

Next year in the Forum!

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Call For Quaestor
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 23:48:02 +1000 (EST)

Ave all,

Yes, it is a bit tiring to have to run out to the
saepta every five minutes to cast a vote, but that's
the only way we can ever be assured of adequete
representation, right?

I'd stand for the position of quaestor myself, but I'm
too young, and I know that no-one ever takes age
dispensation requests seriously...and besides which,
the senate has better things to do with their time,
like running elections, right?:-)

Valete bene omnes

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

--- Flavius Vedius Germanicus
<germanicus@--------> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Flavius Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.<BR>
<BR>
With the resignation of tribune Quintus Sertorius from
the position of<BR>
rogator, a vacancy has been created. Any cives wishing
to run for rogator<BR>
(the election will likely be held in early May),
please contact the consuls<BR>
off-list (consuls@--------).<BR>
<BR>
Is anyone else getting tired of these constant
elections? Maybe it's time to<BR>
let the Senate appoint replacements earlier in the
year than September...<BR>
<BR>
Next year in the Forum!<BR>
<BR>
Valete,<BR>
<BR>
Flavius Vedius Germanicus,<BR>
Consul<BR>
<BR>
email: germanicus@--------<BR>
AIM: Flavius Vedius<BR>
www: <a
href="http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org">http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org</a><BR>
<BR>
</tt>

<br>

<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->

<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] New Gens Member
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 17:24:59 -0000

Salve and welcome Publius Mauricius Falconius!

Pompeia Cornelia


>From: "Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: <novaroma@-------->
>Subject: [novaroma] New Gens Member
>Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 10:12:48 -0700
>
>Salvete Omnes,
>It is with great pleasure that I announce the introduction of Publius
>Mauricius Falconius into Gens Mauricius and, as soon as our overworked and
>underpaid, honored and esteemed Censors are able, into Nova Roma.
>Lucius Mauricius Procopious
>Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
>(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>procopious@--------
>ICQ# 83516618
>*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
>http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
>* The Gens Mauricia
>http://www.geocities.com/procopious
>
>"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
>affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason
>for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
>to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
>decide for himself according to his taste."
> -Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Call For Quaestor
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:05:42 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry Anguston [mailto:gaiussentius@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 09:48
>
> and besides which,
> the senate has better things to do with their time,
> like running elections, right?:-)

Actually, the Consuls and Tribunes run elections. The Senate makes
appointments...

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:10:51 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: LSergAust@-------- [mailto:LSergAust@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 00:49
>
> Are you not aware of the persistence and even growth of slavery in many
> "modern" societies - including the United States. It's not legal, but
> it's still there.
>
> Perhaps a good role for Nova Romans would be in helping to expose and
> stamp out slavery.

Actually, there is already a movement afoot amongst the Asatru community to
do just that. See http://www.midhnottsol.org/fow/ for details. Might this be
something Nova Roma should support?

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	[novaroma] Modern Day Slavery ( was Re: Rebirth versus Reconstruction)
From:	"Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 14:39:32 -0000

Salvete Consul et Omnes,

The FOW (Free Our Women)is a worthy cause indeed. I'm all for Nova
Roma pledging it's support. For anyone interested in finding out how
serious and widespread a problem the enslavment of women & children
is, check out the follwing link:

http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/KSEnglish.exe?
method=mainSuggestOnSelect&SUGGESTCB=156299&batchHits=15&numresults=10
00&query=SLAVERY&xoptions=sortboth

It links to an archieve of recent newspaper articles regading modern
slavery on the BBC's webpage. Very sobering stuff, that most people
are completely unaware of. It's a sad thought, but it seems with all
the progress civiliztion has made, slavery has not only refused to
dissapear, but in many ways has become more cruel and depraved than
ever before...

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Legatus of Massachusetts

--- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...>
wrote:
> Salve
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: LSergAust@-------- [m--------o:LSergAust@--------]
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 00:49
> >
> > Are you not aware of the persistence and even growth of slavery
in many
> > "modern" societies - including the United States. It's not legal,
but
> > it's still there.
> >
> > Perhaps a good role for Nova Romans would be in helping to expose
and
> > stamp out slavery.
>
> Actually, there is already a movement afoot amongst the Asatru
community to
> do just that. See http://www.midhnottsol.org/fow/ for details.
Might this be
> something Nova Roma should support?
>
> Next year in the Forum!
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
> email: germa--------s@-------- > AIM: Flavius Vedius
> www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gentium problem
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:28:27 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Gai Marci,

> There is about three hundred gentes in NR today. About half of them
> have got only 1 memeber. I know, that new citizens are still comig,
> but if it will continue this way there will be more and more one man
> families.

That trend has already changed.

Originally, with the old version of the citizenship application, the
new citizen was prompted to choose a gens simply by typing the appropriate
name in the "nomen" slot, and check a box indicating whether this was
a new or existing gens. Perhaps one in six applicants would actually
choose to join an existing gens, with the knowledge that they were
doing this. The vast majority would either start a new gens, or would
try to start a new gens but inadvertently choose an existing name
(apparently not realizing that names like "Iulius" and "Claudius" were
taken long, long ago!).

Thus, there were far too many one-man gentes, and extra work for the
censors, who would have to continuously explain why a nomen was
inappropriate or already taken.

Late last year I redesigned the application to discourage one-person
gentes. After filling out his contact information, the propsective
citizen is shown a page that lists all the gentes with links to their
Album Gentium pages and the various gens websites. Next to each
is a button, or a statement that the gens is not accepting new members.
The propsective citizen chooses one of these gentes in order to
proceed to the final stage of the application.

At the bottom of the page, in ordinary type, is a link that allows
the prospective citizen to create a new gens. The option is there,
but small and not immediately obvious; the new citizen is encouraged
by the page design to choose an existing gens.

On the third page, after choosing, the new citizen is instructed to
contact the paterfamilias, and is given his name and email address.

Since this improvement went in, the proportion of new applicants
choosing an existing gens or creating a new one has reversed -- now,
only about one in six want to create a new gens. The majority join
an existing gens. The new citizen is immediately welcomed into
a family; they can use the gens name they wanted rather than having
to pick one not in use; and the applications are processed much
faster because the censores don't need to correct as many
inappropriate names now.

Vale, Octavius.

---
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Call For Quaestor
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:23:26 -0400

Salve Consul: Seeing as there is another election pretty soon, I was
wondering if you or anyone else has heard from Brittannicus (is that the
correct spelling?) or Laurentibus lately. I handled that last two elections
and have not heard from Laurentibus at all since the beginning of the first
one I worked on. Brittannicus E-mailed me at the start of the first one
saying that he had a hard drive problem and I haven't heard from him since.
I e-mailed Laurentibus a few times during tha last two elections and have
received no reply. Our Curator Araneae, Marcus Octavius Germanicus has heard
nothing as well, and told me that as far as he knew, I was the only one
working on them, (he worked on them as well). Does anyone have any
suggestions? Or has anyone heard from them? If necessary, I will work on
this one as well with our new Rogator, Domna Claudia Auspicata, but it seems
that at this point we might only have two Rogators instead of four. Ave
aque vale, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, ... Rogator
----- Original Message -----
From: "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 8:44 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Call For Quaestor


> Flavius Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.
>
> With the resignation of tribune Quintus Sertorius from the position of
> rogator, a vacancy has been created. Any cives wishing to run for rogator
> (the election will likely be held in early May), please contact the
consuls
> off-list (consuls@--------).
>
> Is anyone else getting tired of these constant elections? Maybe it's time
to
> let the Senate appoint replacements earlier in the year than September...
>
> Next year in the Forum!
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
> email: germanicus@--------
> AIM: Flavius Vedius
> www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 18:35:04 +0200

Teleri ferch Nyfain wrote:
> Um, WE are animals. We are very dependent on the web of life, and to try to
> put ourselves somehow apart from that has led to the kind of environmental
> disasters which are threatening our water and air quality right now, causing
> the ozone depletion, and possible global warming.
>
> The interconnectiveness of life is a pretty basic tenet of most pagan belief
> systems (including the Religio Roma) so I'd expect to see that in any
> reconstruction of the ancients.
>
> Blessed Be
> & Valete,
> Helena Galeria

Salve, Helena Galeria.

Do I sense a wicca among us pagans? :)

With the Religio Romana as foundation for your argument, it is
faultless. However, some people may disagree, including most modern
scientists. Our problems with our environment are not caused by WHAT we
do, but HOW we do it. Before we're even half aware of the long-term
consequences of nuclear power, we build sufficient nuclear power plants
to support the known world, etc, etc...

In short; think before you act, not the other way around.

However, I'm pretty certain we're on this forum neither to debate animal
rights nor to deal with environmental issues. Maybe in time, but
certainly not yet.

Vale,

(And a whispered Blessed Be,)

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consiliarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Call For Quaestor
From:	"Poepie" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 19:53:54 +0200

Salve Appi Tulli,

I recently had contact with Curio Britannicus, I think he is still alive.
But Cornelius Moravius' address recently bounced one of my mails as well. I
don't know what's going on with him.

Vale bene,
Draco

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	"Diana Meridia Aurelia" <diana_h@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 18:22:16 -0000

Salve Patrici Vitruvi Iuliane et Omnes,
I would also like to comment on this briefly, as I realise it is off-
topic.
I wholeheartedly agree with Iulia Cassia on this; especially in
reference to the view that 'animals have no emotions .. and are
therefore to be regarded inferior to humans'.
This genuinely sounds like one of the statements Descartes put
forward in the 19th Century, which in consequence denies
consciousness to animals (calling them brutes) and generally sees
them as nothing more than (biological) machines - to be treated
likewise.
Much as I hope that we, as a species, have advanced beyond such a
view and its consequences it cannot be denied that we have a long way
ahead of us yet; in recent posts it has been mentioned that not even
human slavery is beyond us (as a species) in the 21st century. Not a
thought, unfortunately, that gives rise for much hope in regards
to 'non-human slavery' in the near future.
As an education on this particular matter, may I suggest an excellent
work on moral philosophy, Tom Regan's 'The case for animal rights'.
It may serve to broaden your horizon; it sure has mine.
And let's not forget the great minds who have stepped on this path
before us: Pythagoras, Ovid, Plutarch, Porphyry ...

Valete,
Diana Meridia Aurelia


--- In novaroma@--------, Iulia66198@a... wrote:
> In a message dated Sun, 15 Apr 2001 8:15:26 PM Eastern Daylight
Time, Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@--------> writes:
>
> <<Yes, I do see something that makes animals inferior to
> humans. They have no emotions>>
>
> Excuse me, but would you care to tell this to the dog I adopted
from the shelter in 1990? A dog who still has not recovered from the
abuse he received, apparently from someone else who considered
him 'emotionless'? A dog who suffers from irreparable separation
anxiety and who is still grieving the passing in February of his dog
companion of 10 years???
>
> <<Some people say that dogs have emotions and have
> unconditional love for their masters, but I doubt that
> that love would be so "unconditional" if the owner
> were no longer able to feed it.>>
>
> If you believe this, then you need to learn a bit more about dogs.
>
> I'm sorry you hold these views. It is no doubt a similar mindset
which has made it possible to justify the atrocities committed
against animal life on this planet, whether in a private home, the
Colisseum, a research facility or a factory farm. It may also
interest you to know that many of the people sitting in jail today
for murder didn't start off their criminal careers murdering people.
They started with the mistreatment/killing of animals and 'moved up.'
>
> Iulia Cassia

Subject:	[novaroma] Moderator Comment (was Re: Rebirth versus Reconstruction)
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 14:39:06 -0400

Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Diana Meridia Aurelia [mailto:diana_h@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 14:22
>
> And let's not forget the great minds who have stepped on this path
> before us: Pythagoras, Ovid, Plutarch, Porphyry ...

If I may, it might be very well to do just that. Otherwise, the whole
discussion of animal rights is veering way off-topic, having little if
anything to do with Rome, ancient or modern.

On behalf of our curatrix sermonem and with her permission (since she is at
the moment indisposed), the general topic of animal rights in any other than
a specifically ancient or Nova Roman context is hereby declared closed.
Anyone continuing the discussion here on the main list will be subject to
suitable disciplinary action.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	[novaroma] I'm here!
From:	marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 18:41:26 -0000

Salvete omnes,

My computer "Should" be ready in time for the elections. If not,
just look for the gibbering maniac drooling and laughing, and if he's
there, assume I'm beyond help... :-)

Bene valete,
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
Rogatorus Frustratedus

Subject:	[novaroma] Roman Enviornmentalism? (was Re: Rebirth versus Reconstruction)
From:	"Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 18:50:52 -0000

Salvete Helena Galeria et omnes

While I agree that most pagan religions (the Religio included)share
the concept that all aspects of nature are interconnected, I'm not
sure that we would want to reconstruct the ancient Roman's attitudes
towards the enviornment. I suspect that if you tried to explain the
modern concept of enviornmentalism, animal's rights, etc. to the
average "Roman on the Street" he/or she would regard you as eccentric
at best. =) It's my guess that if a Roman thought of the enviornment
at all, it was in a purely pratcical and "exploitive" sense...
i.e. "what can I get out of it?" (which interstingly seems to be the
way many Romans looked at Religion as well). I'm going purely on
supposition here, so i'd love to here other cives opinions/comments!

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Legtaus of Massachusetts







--- In novaroma@--------, Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@t...> wrote:
> Teleri ferch Nyfain wrote:
> > Um, WE are animals. We are very dependent on the web of life,
and to try to
> > put ourselves somehow apart from that has led to the kind of
environmental
> > disasters which are threatening our water and air quality right
now, causing
> > the ozone depletion, and possible global warming.
> >
> > The interconnectiveness of life is a pretty basic tenet of most
pagan belief
> > systems (including the Religio Roma) so I'd expect to see that
in any
> > reconstruction of the ancients.
> >
> > Blessed Be
> > & Valete,
> > Helena Galeria
>
> Salve, Helena Galeria.
>
> Do I sense a wicca among us pagans? :)
>
> With the Religio Romana as foundation for your argument, it is
> faultless. However, some people may disagree, including most modern
> scientists. Our problems with our environment are not caused by
WHAT we
> do, but HOW we do it. Before we're even half aware of the long-term
> consequences of nuclear power, we build sufficient nuclear power
plants
> to support the known world, etc, etc...
>
> In short; think before you act, not the other way around.
>
> However, I'm pretty certain we're on this forum neither to debate
animal
> rights nor to deal with environmental issues. Maybe in time, but
> certainly not yet.
>
> Vale,
>
> (And a whispered Blessed Be,)
>
> Titus Octavius Pius,
> Consiliarius Thules,
> Praeco Anarei Thules,
> Scriba to the Curator Araneum
>
> AKA Kristoffer From
>
> ---
>
> Si hoc signum legere potes,
> operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
> et fructuosis potiri potes.
>
> - Not-so-famous quotation

Subject:	[novaroma] Modern Day Slavery
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 18:58:23 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, LSergAust@a... wrote:
>
> Salve Helena Galeria
>
> Are you not aware of the persistence and even growth of slavery in
many
> "modern" societies - including the United States. It's not legal,
but
> it's still there.
>
> Perhaps a good role for Nova Romans would be in helping to expose
and
> stamp out slavery.
>
> Vale,
>
> L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
>
>
Salvete,

This is an excellent idea, but it won't be an easy task.

Recentaly the owner of the "China Cafe" restaruants in Atlanta was
arrested on slavary charges. I often ate at one of these restaurants
and I never dreamed that I was coming in direct contact with slaves.

I knew that some employers take unfair advantage of workers who don't
have the "correct" papers, but it didn't occur to me that it could go
this far.These people were in the US illegaly, cutting them off from
reporting thier plight to government officals, and few of the spoke
even the most basic English, cutting them off from most people in
this area.

According to the news reports they were being held in debt bondage,
they were told they had to repay the cost of smuggling them into the
USA and the cost of thier upkeep while they paid thier "debt" by
working 12 to 14 hour days.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus

Subject:	[novaroma] The name-change issue
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 16:15:20 -0400

Salvete omnes

My apologies for being absent at the height of the name-change debate. I had
hoped to be able to guide the discussion along more productive lines, but
little Juliana decreed that such was not to be. :-)

The two versions of the proposed law are virtually identical, except for
paragraph XX (and a slight change in paragraph IX which makes it consistent
with the change to paragraph XX). The short version of the differences is:
Sulla's version requires some sort of official macronational paperwork to
allow someone's changed name not to match their physical gender, and Marius'
version simply requires an affirmation by the individual and his or her
paterfamilias.

Other than that, they are completely identical, and overall good law, as
Marius has said. I just wanted to put the whole thing in perspective.

Personally, I find faults in both versions regarding the question of names
matching physical genders. Sulla's is too restrictive, and Marius' too
generous. I believe there should be some standards in place other than those
which are completely subjective, but forcing someone to undergo a
macronational legal gender-change (which is a far different and more
difficult thing from a name-change) is too high a standard. (Indeed, short
of surgery, I'm not sure such would even be possible in some places, and
requiring surgery is certainly way over the top.)

I had originally asked Marius to present the alternative version so that a
consensus could develop around one version or the other, or perhaps a
compromise developed. Neither of those things happened, obviously.

In one last, (hopefully not vain) attempt to bring this question to a
solution acceptable (if not beloved) by both sides, I offer my own modest
attempt at a compromise:

# XX. A citizen who wishes to change the gender of his name counter to
# that dictated by his physical gender must present, in support of his
# application, proof of legal acceptance of a name in keeping with
# such contrary gender by an authority of a macronation, state/
# province, or municipality.
#
# A. EXAMPLE: Bob Smith originally joins Nova Roma with the Roman
# name Gaius Vedius. Later, he obtains a legal name-change to Roberta
# Smith in the state of Maryland (USA), gets a new driver's license
# issued with that name, and wishes to change his Roman name to Gaia
# Vedia. He simply sends his requests to the Censors with a photocopy
# of the new driver's license, and the request would be considered
# according to the other provisions of this lex.
#
# B. An exception to this rule is allowed in the case of transsexual
# citizens who are discussing surgical sex alteration with a qualified
# health care provider or undergoing other medical and psychological
# treatment in preparation for such an operation. In these instances,
# the applicant may submit a letter from said health care provider(s)
# indicating his status as a pre-op transsexual.

In other words, if one was willing to legally change their "mundane name" to
one that did not match their physical gender, that would be enough to have
the Censors to change one's Roman name as well. (Officially recorded gender
would remain whatever the physical gender was, but that would obviously
remain confidential as is already the case under the law.)

A legal name-change, as has been pointed out before, is quite a lower hurdle
to jump than a legal gender-change (both monetarily and in terms of effort).
Yet it is still an objective demonstration of a serious intent to live one's
life in the "real world" according to the same sort of name as one wants to
live by here, thus avoiding the spectre of "role-playing personas" and the
like which I believe are feared by many of those opposed to Marius' version
of the proposed lex (not, I believe, that such is the intention of that
version).

Again, this is offered in the spirit of compromise and concordia. I
earnestly hope a consensus can be found on this issue; whether through this
compromise version, one of the original versions, or some other solution.
Otherwise I believe the only fair way to resolve such a polarizing issue is
to put both competing versions up against each other and let the majority
decide. I would much rather have a consensus.

Comments, suggestions, etc. are all more than welcome as usual.

Next year in the Forum!

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The name-change issue
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:27:05 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Flavi Vedi,

> In other words, if one was willing to legally change their "mundane name" to
> one that did not match their physical gender, that would be enough to have
> the Censors to change one's Roman name as well. (Officially recorded gender
> would remain whatever the physical gender was, but that would obviously
> remain confidential as is already the case under the law.)

This would cause problems with the website. It is full of such things
as:

${!if Citizen.gender=='F'}
materfamilias
${!else}
paterfamilias
${!endif}

Adding database columns for "public gender" and "offical gender", or
somesuch, and capability to edit such, would waste a significant amount
of time.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Rebirth versus Reconstruction
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 14:05:10 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes!

--- Diana Meridia Aurelia <diana_h@--------> wrote:

-----(snipped)----------------

> This genuinely sounds like one of the statements Descartes put
> forward in the 19th Century, which in consequence denies
> consciousness to animals (calling them brutes) and generally sees
> them as nothing more than (biological) machines - to be treated
> likewise.

Sorry, but Descartes (the French Philosopher) lived in the 16th
century, not in the 19th.

Not that I despise your ideas; I just wanted to make a small
correction.


=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The name-change issue
From:	aulusspuriushadrianus@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:16:16 -0000

A. Spurius Handrianus Germanico S.D.

Your compromise seems quite sensible to me except for the part where
there is an official and unofficial sex kept. I don't believe anyone
makes these choices lightly and if (by the method you've outlined) a
name is changed then the sex too should be by the persons choice. I
am very new to this and may have missed something in the earlier
discussions that make this a problem, but I certainly don't see one
at present. I'm pretty sure when I signed up no one came out to
verify my gender. If these people are being honest enough to present
us with the problem of the name change, I think it behooves us to
move with them completely, once we have decided it is possible to do
so at all.

Vale







--- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...>
wrote:
> Salvete omnes
>
> My apologies for being absent at the height of the name-change
debate. I had
> hoped to be able to guide the discussion along more productive
lines, but
> little Juliana decreed that such was not to be. :-)
>
> The two versions of the proposed law are virtually identical,
except for
> paragraph XX (and a slight change in paragraph IX which makes it
consistent
> with the change to paragraph XX). The short version of the
differences is:
> Sulla's version requires some sort of official macronational
paperwork to
> allow someone's changed name not to match their physical gender,
and Marius'
> version simply requires an affirmation by the individual and his or
her
> paterfamilias.
>
> Other than that, they are completely identical, and overall good
law, as
> Marius has said. I just wanted to put the whole thing in
perspective.
>
> Personally, I find faults in both versions regarding the question
of names
> matching physical genders. Sulla's is too restrictive, and Marius'
too
> generous. I believe there should be some standards in place other
than those
> which are completely subjective, but forcing someone to undergo a
> macronational legal gender-change (which is a far different and more
> difficult thing from a name-change) is too high a standard.
(Indeed, short
> of surgery, I'm not sure such would even be possible in some
places, and
> requiring surgery is certainly way over the top.)
>
> I had originally asked Marius to present the alternative version so
that a
> consensus could develop around one version or the other, or perhaps
a
> compromise developed. Neither of those things happened, obviously.
>
> In one last, (hopefully not vain) attempt to bring this question to
a
> solution acceptable (if not beloved) by both sides, I offer my own
modest
> attempt at a compromise:
>
> # XX. A citizen who wishes to change the gender of his name counter
to
> # that dictated by his physical gender must present, in support of
his
> # application, proof of legal acceptance of a name in keeping with
> # such contrary gender by an authority of a macronation, state/
> # province, or municipality.
> #
> # A. EXAMPLE: Bob Smith originally joins Nova Roma with the
Roman
> # name Gaius Vedius. Later, he obtains a legal name-change to
Roberta
> # Smith in the state of Maryland (USA), gets a new driver's
license
> # issued with that name, and wishes to change his Roman name to
Gaia
> # Vedia. He simply sends his requests to the Censors with a
photocopy
> # of the new driver's license, and the request would be
considered
> # according to the other provisions of this lex.
> #
> # B. An exception to this rule is allowed in the case of
transsexual
> # citizens who are discussing surgical sex alteration with a
qualified
> # health care provider or undergoing other medical and
psychological
> # treatment in preparation for such an operation. In these
instances,
> # the applicant may submit a letter from said health care
provider(s)
> # indicating his status as a pre-op transsexual.
>
> In other words, if one was willing to legally change their "mundane
name" to
> one that did not match their physical gender, that would be enough
to have
> the Censors to change one's Roman name as well. (Officially
recorded gender
> would remain whatever the physical gender was, but that would
obviously
> remain confidential as is already the case under the law.)
>
> A legal name-change, as has been pointed out before, is quite a
lower hurdle
> to jump than a legal gender-change (both monetarily and in terms of
effort).
> Yet it is still an objective demonstration of a serious intent to
live one's
> life in the "real world" according to the same sort of name as one
wants to
> live by here, thus avoiding the spectre of "role-playing personas"
and the
> like which I believe are feared by many of those opposed to Marius'
version
> of the proposed lex (not, I believe, that such is the intention of
that
> version).
>
> Again, this is offered in the spirit of compromise and concordia. I
> earnestly hope a consensus can be found on this issue; whether
through this
> compromise version, one of the original versions, or some other
solution.
> Otherwise I believe the only fair way to resolve such a polarizing
issue is
> to put both competing versions up against each other and let the
majority
> decide. I would much rather have a consensus.
>
> Comments, suggestions, etc. are all more than welcome as usual.
>
> Next year in the Forum!
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
> email: germa--------s@-------- > AIM: Flavius Vedius
> www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gentium problem
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 23:58:10 +0200

>Since this improvement went in, the proportion of new applicants
>choosing an existing gens or creating a new one has reversed -- now,
>only about one in six want to create a new gens. The majority join
>an existing gens. The new citizen is immediately welcomed into
>a family; they can use the gens name they wanted rather than having
>to pick one not in use; and the applications are processed much
>faster because the censores don't need to correct as many
>inappropriate names now.
>
>Vale, Octavius.
>
>---
>M. Octavius Germanicus
>Propraetor, Lacus Magni
>Curator Araneum et Senator


Salve Illustrus Senator, Propraetor and Curator Araneum Marcus Octavius
Germanicus!

I have been a little bit worried about this issue lately. Today I discussed
the issue with your son , Honorable Consiliarius Thules, Praeco Anarei
Thules and Scriba to the Curator Araneum Titus Octavius Pius, we discussed
closing the Album Gentium. But this seems as a very elegant solution.

I must congratulate and thank You for this great work of yours!



Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
Join the List for the Thule Provincia in Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join
************************************************
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http://www.acc.umu.se/~kerish/novaroma/main.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
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************************************************
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MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] What is the best of Rome?
From:	Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:47:23 -0700 (PDT)

--- "G. Noviodunus Ferriculus"
<Gaius.Noviodunus@--------> wrote:
> Patrick Ferguson wrote:
>
>
> >>-Sounder nutrition
>
> >>
>
> >>I agree that this point is not necessarily a
> public
>
> >>matter (it's up to
>
> >>everyone what he/she wants to eat. However I think
>
> >>the Government should
>
> >>encourage to eat like the Romans. In besides the
>
> >>recipes of Apulei, that
>
>
> Of course I meant Apicius, not Apuleius :-(
>
>
>
> >>were mostly used for the cena, we should be aware
>
> >>that the prandium was
>
> >>often cheese with bread and raw fruits. I would
>
> >>consider a Nova Romanus
>
> >>who is eating junk food
> >>not to be respectful
>
> >>of Ancient Rome.
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> > Good, but impractical.
>
>
> Why? is it so hard to find cheese and raw fruits in
> your shops?

It isn't hard to do in the sense of finding the proper
food, it is just conquering taste buds that is
difficult. Obviously, some people have an easy time
with this. But I don't :-<. So it is less pracical
for some than it is for others.

>
>
> >
>
> >>-Bilinguism
>
> >>
>
> >>The Romans had good schools. They learnt to speak
>
> >>and write both in
>
> >>Latin and in Greek, not to mention other italic
>
> >>dialects. This should be
>
> >>no different in Nova Roma. While our official
>
> >>language is de facto
>
> >>English (or even de jure? - don't know) we should
> be
>
> >>able to speak at
>
> >>least another wide-spread language fluently
>
> >>(Spanish, German, French,
>
> >>Russian) and why not a third one? Knowing several
>
> >>languages is an
>
> >>excellent mean to understand other people. I
> didn't
>
> >>mention Latin but
>
> >>those who can "speak" it fluently are blessed by
> the
>
> >>gods. But could be
>
> >>nice if our institutions also promoted the study
> of
>
> >>the latin language.
>
> >>Don't understand my wrong. I don't want it to be a
>
> >>condition to be
>
> >>admitted as citizen, but bilinguism should
>
> >>definitely be promoted by the
>
> >>government.
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> > I am not so sure about this one. Bilingualism is
>
> > fine. But I don't think that I should *need* to
> be
>
> > able to speak another language in addition to my
>
> > native one to get around my own country.
>
>
> I'm not talking of a language "to get around" in
> your country, but a
> language that would broaden your view. Although I
> think it would be
> excellent for you to know Spanish to "get around" in
> your country. I
> emphasize my "I think" and don't read it as a "you
> must".
>
> > I do think
>
> > that if someone (including myself) were to move
> into
>
> > another country that they should learn the
> language of
>
> > that country rather than simply retain my own.
>
>
> What wise words!
>
> > This
>
> > would encourage division within citys on
>
> > cultural/language lines.
>
> Division within cities? What a nonsense! I'm staying
> in a billingual
> city. You can go in a shop and address the vendor in
> either language...
> I don't see a division line. And I was referring to
> the Roman world
> where scholars knew *equally* latin and greek. What
> were Caesar's last
> words? "kai sy technon" or "tu quoque mi fili"?

You may, but I am not. Two languages are spoken in my
city as well. But most of the time a person only
knows one of them. Your situation is quite different
from mine. Also there are cultural divisions along
these language lines where I live. However, thanks
for stressing how things were. I was simply stressing
how things are, for some people at least.

>
> vale bene,
>
> --
> Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
> Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
>
>

What nice responces :->!

Valete Oprime :->!

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Roame.


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gentium problem
From:	Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:51:38 -0700 (PDT)

--- gaiuscoriolanus@-------- wrote:
> Salvete omnes
>
> There is one issue, I guess we must think about.
> What is NR intent
> with situation about gens to the future?
>
> Each new citizen has got chance to create his own
> gens.
> It is legal and democratic but on the other hand it
> will be good to
> make some steps to improve it.
>
> There is about three hundred gentes in NR today.
> About half of them
> have got only 1 memeber. I know, that new citizens
> are still comig,
> but if it will continue this way there will be more
> and more one man
> families. And family of one man is far from roman
> traditional close
> tied family which is stronger in sel-assertion.
>
> As I said it will be neccessary to say stop sometime
> in the future.
> BUT
> Is it legal to make it or not?
> How it will correspond with NR constitution?
> Are there different ways to solve this issue?
> Or is today's situation acceptable for NR for
> ever?
>
> I don't want to suggest any restriction, I only want
> to know how it
> will seem in close or far future.
>
>
> valete
> Gaius Marcius Coriolanus
>
>
>
>
>

I think that we must accept it for now. However, as
we step out more and more into the real community, I
think that it would become more and more likely that
people will naturally form multi-person gentes.
However this is just my own prediction/opinion.

Valete optime :->!

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.


__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gentium problem - closing Gentes
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:55:29 -0700

----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Ferguson" <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Gentium problem


>
> --- gaiuscoriolanus@-------- wrote:
> > Salvete omnes
> >
> > There is one issue, I guess we must think about.
> > What is NR intent
> > with situation about gens to the future?
> >
> > Each new citizen has got chance to create his own
> > gens.
> > It is legal and democratic but on the other hand it
> > will be good to
> > make some steps to improve it.
> >
> > There is about three hundred gentes in NR today.
> > About half of them
> > have got only 1 memeber. I know, that new citizens
> > are still comig,
> > but if it will continue this way there will be more
> > and more one man
> > families. And family of one man is far from roman
> > traditional close
> > tied family which is stronger in sel-assertion.
> >
> > As I said it will be neccessary to say stop sometime
> > in the future.
> > BUT
> > Is it legal to make it or not?
> > How it will correspond with NR constitution?
> > Are there different ways to solve this issue?
> > Or is today's situation acceptable for NR for
> > ever?
> >
> > I don't want to suggest any restriction, I only want
> > to know how it
> > will seem in close or far future.
> >
> >
> > valete
> > Gaius Marcius Coriolanus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> I think that we must accept it for now. However, as
> we step out more and more into the real community, I
> think that it would become more and more likely that
> people will naturally form multi-person gentes.
> However this is just my own prediction/opinion.
>
> Valete optime :->!
>
> Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,
>
> Civis Novae Romae.

Ave,

Just as a note for everyone....since the Censors promulgated the edict about
closing Gentes when Paters/Maters do not respond..about 60 Gentes have been
closed. I recently got a list from our Noble Senator M. Octavius. You can
go to the Album and check to see if you gens is accepting new members or if
it has been on of the Gentes that have been closed.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma

Subject:	[novaroma] 4th Annual European Renaissance Festival
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:59:15 -0700

Ave,

I just got this flyer from my boss at Earthlink.

7 weekends and Memorial Day
April 14-May 28
10 am to 6 pm - rain or shine
Riverview Park, Corona/Norca, CA

Admission: $10.00
Children 6-12: $6.00

phone number for more info: 800-320-4736
They take credit cards and ATM.

I thought maybe some of you might find this flyer interesting.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: 4th Annual European Renaissance Festival
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 23:12:46 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave,
>
> I just got this flyer from my boss at Earthlink.
>
> 7 weekends and Memorial Day
> April 14-May 28
> 10 am to 6 pm - rain or shine
> Riverview Park, Corona/Norca, CA
>
> Admission: $10.00
> Children 6-12: $6.00
>
> phone number for more info: 800-320-4736
> They take credit cards and ATM.
>
> I thought maybe some of you might find this flyer interesting.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>

Salvete,
For those (like me) who find California a little too far away,

http://www.garenfest.com/

For Georgia's renfest,

And for those looking for other renfests, this google search

http://www.google.com/search?q=Renaissance+Festival&hl=en&lr=lang_en&safe=off&start=0&sa=N

turns up many more renfests.

Valete
l. Sicinius Drusus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Enviornmentalism? (was Re: Rebirth versus Reconstruction)
From:	Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 16:16:47 -0700 (PDT)

--- Adrian Gunn <shinjikun@--------> wrote:
> Salvete Helena Galeria et omnes
>
> While I agree that most pagan religions (the Religio
> included)share
> the concept that all aspects of nature are
> interconnected, I'm not
> sure that we would want to reconstruct the ancient
> Roman's attitudes
> towards the enviornment. I suspect that if you tried
> to explain the
> modern concept of enviornmentalism, animal's rights,
> etc. to the
> average "Roman on the Street" he/or she would regard
> you as eccentric
> at best. =) It's my guess that if a Roman thought of
> the enviornment
> at all, it was in a purely pratcical and
> "exploitive" sense...
> i.e. "what can I get out of it?" (which interstingly
> seems to be the
> way many Romans looked at Religion as well). I'm
> going purely on
> supposition here, so i'd love to here other cives
> opinions/comments!
>
> Valete,
>
> C. Minucius Hadrianus
> Legtaus of Massachusetts
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, Kristoffer From
&g--------l--------is--------er.from@--------&g--------ro--------/fon--------r> > > Teleri ferch Nyfain wrote:
> > > Um, WE are animals. We are very dependent on
> the web of life,
> and to try to
> > > put ourselves somehow apart from that has led to
> the kind of
> environmental
> > > disasters which are threatening our water and
> air quality right
> now, causing
> > > the ozone depletion, and possible global
> warming.
> > >
> > > The interconnectiveness of life is a pretty
> basic tenet of most
> pagan belief
> > > systems (including the Religio Roma) so I'd
> expect to see that
> in any
> > > reconstruction of the ancients.
> > >
> > > Blessed Be
> > > & Valete,
> > > Helena Galeria
> >
> > Salve, Helena Galeria.
> >
> > Do I sense a wicca among us pagans? :)
> >
> > With the Religio Romana as foundation for your
> argument, it is
> > faultless. However, some people may disagree,
> including most modern
> > scientists. Our problems with our environment are
> not caused by
> WHAT we
> > do, but HOW we do it. Before we're even half aware
> of the long-term
> > consequences of nuclear power, we build sufficient
> nuclear power
> plants
> > to support the known world, etc, etc...
> >
> > In short; think before you act, not the other way
> around.
> >
> > However, I'm pretty certain we're on this forum
> neither to debate
> animal
> > rights nor to deal with environmental issues.
> Maybe in time, but
> > certainly not yet.
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > (And a whispered Blessed Be,)
> >
> > Titus Octavius Pius,
> > Consiliarius Thules,
> > Praeco Anarei Thules,
> > Scriba to the Curator Araneum
> >
> > AKA Kristoffer From
> >
> > ---
> >
> > Si hoc signum legere potes,
> > operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
> > et fructuosis potiri potes.
> >
> > - Not-so-famous quotation
>
>

No argument here on this issue for once :->! If this
is the case, except for the religion part (I am
Catholic but havae a great respect for paganism), I am
very Roman indeed!

Valete optime :->!

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Computer Associates commercial
From:	Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 16:46:24 -0700 (PDT)

--- Marcus Papirius Justus <papirius@-------->
wrote:
> At 04:26 PM 17/04/2001 +1000, you wrote:
> >Anyone found a copy on the net yet ???
>
>
> http://www.cai.com/hellotomorrow/
>
> mpj
> (if it's out there, I can find it)
>
>

Unfortunately, this does not work for me. It says
that there is something wrong with the sight or it may
be congested. Is there anywhere else I could see it?

Cum magna gratia,

Patricius Viturvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

Subject:	[novaroma] The name-change issue
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 01:57:29 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus Aedilis Plebeius
Consuli F. Vedio Germanico et omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Permit me to thank you, Consul, from the bottom of my heart for such
a moderate and reconciliatory statement on this vexed issue, so full
of common sense and evident good will.

I agree wholly that a compromise version would be potentially
desirable, or failing that a vote on the two extant versions. I do
not, in fact, think that your proposed idea of insisting on a name
change at the state or macronational level is completely
satisfactory, for the following reasons:

1. For some people it will be necessary to petition for bankruptcy in
order to convince the authorities that the name change is not to
avoid being found by creditors. I believe that Marius experienced
this, in fact, and it does add an extra rather significant layer of
difficulty and hassle to the whole process. And a person might not
for other reasons desire to declare bankruptcy, even if necessary for
the name change.

2. Jurisdictions differ greatly in requirements for name change. I am
not sure that in France, for example, one could make such a name
change without arranging for a sex change. I could easily be wrong
about that example, but it does seem clear that differences in local
jurisdictions could result in a policy in which Nova Roma in effect
discriminated against its cives resident in certain macronations or
states with regard to a name change relevant only in Nova Roma.

3. Persons with ambiguously gendered names such as "Pat", "Billy" and
"Keith" would either have a much easier time than other people or
they would have to make a completely unnecessary name change from
this point of view in the external world just to have made one to
satisfy Nova Roma.

4. The whole idea that basic human rights such as expectation that
one's announced gender identity be respected (whatever another person
believes about one's underlying "sex") and that one has a right to
choose and change one's own name if one wishes is a very important
principle. Fundamentally human rights should not be decided on by
compromises, especially since those with whom the compromises would
be made in this case have no greater standing or legitimacy in the
argument than a prejudice against persons with rare forms of sexual
identity.

5. Although I completely agree that we do not want people to regard
Nova Roma as a rôle-playing game, the understandable desire to simply
play a Roman rôle and the much less common desire to play a rôle in
the opposite sex just for fun (?) should not be confused. I see no
reason why Roman-oriented RPG-ers would have any special attraction
to changing their sex here, even if they might feel a natural
attraction to do Romam RPG-ing here. This is a non-issue, and always
has been.

My own point of view is that the Censores should act as recording
secretaries for all names in proper grammatical form and
gens-affiliation without any questions of biology, psychology,
macronational opinions, or documentation being involved. My view is
thus considerably more libertarian than that of Marius, for example,
whose involvement of the pater/mater familias in a special procedure
seems to me unnecessarily restrictive to a degree, although not
beyond the bounds of reason.

I think that it should be remembered that the Marian proposal is
thus already a compromise and middle ground proposal between pure
freedom such as I would favour and the language of the original
edictum.

Although I have had to raise a few objections to your particular
proposal, Consul, I repeat that I support your approach and the
leadership you are offering back towards the sanity, fairness and a
dignified treatment of all cives that it represents. And all the best
to Juliana!

Valete!

From: "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Subject: The name-change issue

Salvete omnes

My apologies for being absent at the height of the name-change
debate. I had
hoped to be able to guide the discussion along more productive lines,
but
little Juliana decreed that such was not to be. :-)

The two versions of the proposed law are virtually identical, except
for
paragraph XX (and a slight change in paragraph IX which makes it
consistent
with the change to paragraph XX). The short version of the
differences is:
Sulla's version requires some sort of official macronational
paperwork to
allow someone's changed name not to match their physical gender, and
Marius'
version simply requires an affirmation by the individual and his or
her
paterfamilias.

Other than that, they are completely identical, and overall good law,
as
Marius has said. I just wanted to put the whole thing in perspective.

Personally, I find faults in both versions regarding the question of
names
matching physical genders. Sulla's is too restrictive, and Marius'
too
generous. I believe there should be some standards in place other
than those
which are completely subjective, but forcing someone to undergo a
macronational legal gender-change (which is a far different and more
difficult thing from a name-change) is too high a standard. (Indeed,
short
of surgery, I'm not sure such would even be possible in some places,
and
requiring surgery is certainly way over the top.)

I had originally asked Marius to present the alternative version so
that a
consensus could develop around one version or the other, or perhaps a
compromise developed. Neither of those things happened, obviously.

In one last, (hopefully not vain) attempt to bring this question to a
solution acceptable (if not beloved) by both sides, I offer my own
modest
attempt at a compromise:

# XX. A citizen who wishes to change the gender of his name counter
to
# that dictated by his physical gender must present, in support of
his
# application, proof of legal acceptance of a name in keeping with
# such contrary gender by an authority of a macronation, state/
# province, or municipality.
#
# A. EXAMPLE: Bob Smith originally joins Nova Roma with the Roman
# name Gaius Vedius. Later, he obtains a legal name-change to
Roberta
# Smith in the state of Maryland (USA), gets a new driver's
license
# issued with that name, and wishes to change his Roman name to
Gaia
# Vedia. He simply sends his requests to the Censors with a
photocopy
# of the new driver's license, and the request would be
considered
# according to the other provisions of this lex.
#
# B. An exception to this rule is allowed in the case of
transsexual
# citizens who are discussing surgical sex alteration with a
qualified
# health care provider or undergoing other medical and
psychological
# treatment in preparation for such an operation. In these
instances,
# the applicant may submit a letter from said health care
provider(s)
# indicating his status as a pre-op transsexual.

In other words, if one was willing to legally change their "mundane
name" to
one that did not match their physical gender, that would be enough to
have
the Censors to change one's Roman name as well. (Officially recorded
gender
would remain whatever the physical gender was, but that would
obviously
remain confidential as is already the case under the law.)

A legal name-change, as has been pointed out before, is quite a lower
hurdle
to jump than a legal gender-change (both monetarily and in terms of
effort)..
Yet it is still an objective demonstration of a serious intent to
live one's
life in the "real world" according to the same sort of name as one
wants to
live by here, thus avoiding the spectre of "role-playing personas"
and the
like which I believe are feared by many of those opposed to Marius'
version
of the proposed lex (not, I believe, that such is the intention of
that
version).

Again, this is offered in the spirit of compromise and concordia. I
earnestly hope a consensus can be found on this issue; whether
through this
compromise version, one of the original versions, or some other
solution.
Otherwise I believe the only fair way to resolve such a polarizing
issue is
to put both competing versions up against each other and let the
majority
decide. I would much rather have a consensus.

Comments, suggestions, etc. are all more than welcome as usual.

Next year in the Forum!

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

_________________________________________________
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, Aedilis Plebeius Novae Romae
Amicus Dignitatis; Scriba Censorius
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Moderator Indicis protoprovincialis NR_Venediae
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
____________________________________________________
Memento Idus Martias - non omnino bene Respublica se habet.
(Remember the Ides of March - it is not all well with the Republic.)
____________________________________________________

All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph in the world is for
enough good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
___________________________________________________

Subject:	[novaroma] The name-change issue
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 01:57:51 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus Aedilis Plebeius
Consuli F. Vedio Germanico et omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Permit me to thank you, Consul, from the bottom of my heart for such
a moderate and reconciliatory statement on this vexed issue, so full
of common sense and evident good will.

I agree wholly that a compromise version would be potentially
desirable, or failing that a vote on the two extant versions. I do
not, in fact, think that your proposed idea of insisting on a name
change at the state or macronational level is completely
satisfactory, for the following reasons:

1. For some people it will be necessary to petition for bankruptcy in
order to convince the authorities that the name change is not to
avoid being found by creditors. I believe that Marius experienced
this, in fact, and it does add an extra rather significant layer of
difficulty and hassle to the whole process. And a person might not
for other reasons desire to declare bankruptcy, even if necessary for
the name change.

2. Jurisdictions differ greatly in requirements for name change. I am
not sure that in France, for example, one could make such a name
change without arranging for a sex change. I could easily be wrong
about that example, but it does seem clear that differences in local
jurisdictions could result in a policy in which Nova Roma in effect
discriminated against its cives resident in certain macronations or
states with regard to a name change relevant only in Nova Roma.

3. Persons with ambiguously gendered names such as "Pat", "Billy" and
"Keith" would either have a much easier time than other people or
they would have to make a completely unnecessary name change from
this point of view in the external world just to have made one to
satisfy Nova Roma.

4. The whole idea that basic human rights such as expectation that
one's announced gender identity be respected (whatever another person
believes about one's underlying "sex") and that one has a right to
choose and change one's own name if one wishes is a very important
principle. Fundamentally human rights should not be decided on by
compromises, especially since those with whom the compromises would
be made in this case have no greater standing or legitimacy in the
argument than a prejudice against persons with rare forms of sexual
identity.

5. Although I completely agree that we do not want people to regard
Nova Roma as a rôle-playing game, the understandable desire to simply
play a Roman rôle and the much less common desire to play a rôle in
the opposite sex just for fun (?) should not be confused. I see no
reason why Roman-oriented RPG-ers would have any special attraction
to changing their sex here, even if they might feel a natural
attraction to do Romam RPG-ing here. This is a non-issue, and always
has been.

My own point of view is that the Censores should act as recording
secretaries for all names in proper grammatical form and
gens-affiliation without any questions of biology, psychology,
macronational opinions, or documentation being involved. My view is
thus considerably more libertarian than that of Marius, for example,
whose involvement of the pater/mater familias in a special procedure
seems to me unnecessarily restrictive to a degree, although not
beyond the bounds of reason.

I think that it should be remembered that the Marian proposal is
thus already a compromise and middle ground proposal between pure
freedom such as I would favour and the language of the original
edictum.

Although I have had to raise a few objections to your particular
proposal, Consul, I repeat that I support your approach and the
leadership you are offering back towards the sanity, fairness and a
dignified treatment of all cives that it represents. And all the best
to Juliana!

Valete!

From: "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Subject: The name-change issue

Salvete omnes

My apologies for being absent at the height of the name-change
debate. I had
hoped to be able to guide the discussion along more productive lines,
but
little Juliana decreed that such was not to be. :-)

The two versions of the proposed law are virtually identical, except
for
paragraph XX (and a slight change in paragraph IX which makes it
consistent
with the change to paragraph XX). The short version of the
differences is:
Sulla's version requires some sort of official macronational
paperwork to
allow someone's changed name not to match their physical gender, and
Marius'
version simply requires an affirmation by the individual and his or
her
paterfamilias.

Other than that, they are completely identical, and overall good law,
as
Marius has said. I just wanted to put the whole thing in perspective.

Personally, I find faults in both versions regarding the question of
names
matching physical genders. Sulla's is too restrictive, and Marius'
too
generous. I believe there should be some standards in place other
than those
which are completely subjective, but forcing someone to undergo a
macronational legal gender-change (which is a far different and more
difficult thing from a name-change) is too high a standard. (Indeed,
short
of surgery, I'm not sure such would even be possible in some places,
and
requiring surgery is certainly way over the top.)

I had originally asked Marius to present the alternative version so
that a
consensus could develop around one version or the other, or perhaps a
compromise developed. Neither of those things happened, obviously.

In one last, (hopefully not vain) attempt to bring this question to a
solution acceptable (if not beloved) by both sides, I offer my own
modest
attempt at a compromise:

# XX. A citizen who wishes to change the gender of his name counter
to
# that dictated by his physical gender must present, in support of
his
# application, proof of legal acceptance of a name in keeping with
# such contrary gender by an authority of a macronation, state/
# province, or municipality.
#
# A. EXAMPLE: Bob Smith originally joins Nova Roma with the Roman
# name Gaius Vedius. Later, he obtains a legal name-change to
Roberta
# Smith in the state of Maryland (USA), gets a new driver's
license
# issued with that name, and wishes to change his Roman name to
Gaia
# Vedia. He simply sends his requests to the Censors with a
photocopy
# of the new driver's license, and the request would be
considered
# according to the other provisions of this lex.
#
# B. An exception to this rule is allowed in the case of
transsexual
# citizens who are discussing surgical sex alteration with a
qualified
# health care provider or undergoing other medical and
psychological
# treatment in preparation for such an operation. In these
instances,
# the applicant may submit a letter from said health care
provider(s)
# indicating his status as a pre-op transsexual.

In other words, if one was willing to legally change their "mundane
name" to
one that did not match their physical gender, that would be enough to
have
the Censors to change one's Roman name as well. (Officially recorded
gender
would remain whatever the physical gender was, but that would
obviously
remain confidential as is already the case under the law.)

A legal name-change, as has been pointed out before, is quite a lower
hurdle
to jump than a legal gender-change (both monetarily and in terms of
effort)..
Yet it is still an objective demonstration of a serious intent to
live one's
life in the "real world" according to the same sort of name as one
wants to
live by here, thus avoiding the spectre of "role-playing personas"
and the
like which I believe are feared by many of those opposed to Marius'
version
of the proposed lex (not, I believe, that such is the intention of
that
version).

Again, this is offered in the spirit of compromise and concordia. I
earnestly hope a consensus can be found on this issue; whether
through this
compromise version, one of the original versions, or some other
solution.
Otherwise I believe the only fair way to resolve such a polarizing
issue is
to put both competing versions up against each other and let the
majority
decide. I would much rather have a consensus.

Comments, suggestions, etc. are all more than welcome as usual.

Next year in the Forum!

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

_________________________________________________
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, Aedilis Plebeius Novae Romae
Amicus Dignitatis; Scriba Censorius
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Moderator Indicis protoprovincialis NR_Venediae
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
____________________________________________________
Memento Idus Martias - non omnino bene Respublica se habet.
(Remember the Ides of March - it is not all well with the Republic.)
____________________________________________________

All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph in the world is for
enough good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
___________________________________________________