Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] New poll for novaroma
From:	novaroma@--------
Date:	20 Apr 2001 00:10:10 -0000

Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
novaroma group:

How much time and effort would you be
willing and/or able to devote to a
gathering of the entire citizen body of
Nova Roma in one place for one grand
festival?

o Several Minutes and an Afterthought
o Several Hours and some Talk Time
o Several Days or more and A lot of Genuine Interest
o I am really interested in this and think we should discuss it more.
o Dunno, don't care.

To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma/polls

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!


Subject:	[novaroma] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma/polls
From:	QFabiusMax@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Apr 2001 20:48:59 EDT

In a message dated 4/19/2001 4:16:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
novaroma@-------- writes:

<< >>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma/polls
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 02:43:01 -0000

>From: QFabiusMax@--------
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: [novaroma] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma/polls
>Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 20:48:59 EDT
>
>In a message dated 4/19/2001 4:16:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>novaroma@-------- writes:
>
><< >>

*******Hmm, well they certainly said a mouthful, didn't they? Next time
they might try not being so darned longwinded with their posts!!**** :)

Chuckles,
Pompeia
(who is supposed to capture these cute moments, being the Musea of Thalia
for Sodalitas Musarum)
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


Subject:	[novaroma] Has anyone....
From:	robert woolwine <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 00:09:30 -0400 (EDT)

Read the book "Party Politics in the Age of Caesar," by Lily Ross Taylor

I just won this book on ebay for $1.50. I was wondering how good it was?

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gladiator
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Denny=20Stevenson?= <luciussentius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:20:58 +1000 (EST)

Salvete Omnes,

I was wondering....where is Vindabonna exactly?

I also found an error in Lucius Sergius' reasoning.
The did say that he fought at Vindabonna with Maximus,
but later in the movie, to the African hunter, Maximus
says that he has fought in battles all over the
empire, not only in Germania.

Valete bene omnes,

Lucius Sentius Ahenobarbus Quadratus

(P.S: Am slow in catching up on my e-mails -
communication isn't exactly great in the outer regions
of Mongolia :-) ).

--- LSergAust@-------- wrote: >
> Salvete omnes
>
> I finally got around last night to watching this
> movie. Not a bad movie,
> even if it was terrible history. The last I checked,
> Vindabonna was not
> in Germania. Oh well, in the movies anything is
> possible.
>
> It was a really good production. The one thing that
> grated on my
> sensitivities was the "mispronunciation" of so many
> words and names. Who
> would take a perfectly beautiful name like "Lucius"
> and turn it into
> "Looshus?" Oh, and the legionaries did way too much
> hacking and too
> little thrusting, but I guess by that era they were
> relying too much on
> auxillaries with flaming arrows and not training the
> troops as tightly.
> ;-)
>
> I didn't even recognize Aurelius as Richard Harris
> until I saw his name
> in the credits.
>
> What was the name of Commodus' sister? I could never
> make it out?
>
> Valete,
>
> L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
>
> cum ballistae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti
> ballistas habebunt.
>
> (When ballistas are outlawed, only outlaws will have
> ballistas.)
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________________
http://store.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Store
- It's time you had your business online!


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gladiator
From:	exitil@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 00:44:14 EDT

In a message dated 4/19/01 11:21:50 PM Central Daylight Time,
luciussentius@-------- writes:

> I also found an error in Lucius Sergius' reasoning.
> The did say that he fought at Vindabonna with Maximus,
> but later in the movie, to the African hunter, Maximus
> says that he has fought in battles all over the
> empire, not only in Germania.

Maximus the General, his servant, and one or two of the people who fought in
the arena with him had fought at Vindobonna and had thought it important
enough to specifically point out that particular battle for him to remember
them, or perhaps just for the sake of the importance of that battle itself.
So my guess would be, though I don't know the history, that there was a large
or famous battle that took place at that site.


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Gladiator
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:12:20 +1000

Vale

Totally inappropriate to have any threads criticising Gladiator - this movie
is sacred and should be held as such by all true Romans. Anyone that has
even a most elementary understanding of Roman History knows that is it
clearly not Historically accurate - but look at it what it is - it shows the
Roman Empire in all of its might and Glory and also shows its terror ... of
course those of us who bought the DVD will also see the deleted scenes where
it shows Christians being fed to the Lions - it is a Glorious production and
I look forward to seeing more on the big screen.

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: exitil@-------- [mailto:exitil@--------]
Sent: Friday, 20 April 2001 2:44 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Gladiator

In a message dated 4/19/01 11:21:50 PM Central Daylight Time,
luciussentius@-------- writes:

> I also found an error in Lucius Sergius' reasoning.
> The did say that he fought at Vindabonna with Maximus,
> but later in the movie, to the African hunter, Maximus
> says that he has fought in battles all over the
> empire, not only in Germania.

Maximus the General, his servant, and one or two of the people who fought in

the arena with him had fought at Vindobonna and had thought it important
enough to specifically point out that particular battle for him to remember
them, or perhaps just for the sake of the importance of that battle itself.

So my guess would be, though I don't know the history, that there was a
large
or famous battle that took place at that site.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Gladiator
From:	robert woolwine <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 02:24:27 -0400 (EDT)

Ave!

Wait a minute...a movie sacred..I respectfully disagree. Even when I was interviewed by the Associated Press and CBS Radio I criticized parts of the movie, just as I praised parts of the movie. Gladiator, like most movies have good points and bad points. Both, in my honest opinion can be discussed openly. In particular I enjoyed Proconsul Q.Fabius's critique of the movie when he was being interviewed, given his informal role in the pre-production of the film.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

------Original Message------
From: Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
To: "'novaroma@--------'" <novaroma@-------->
Sent: April 20, 2001 6:12:20 AM GMT
Subject: RE: [novaroma] Gladiator

Vale

Totally inappropriate to have any threads criticising Gladiator - this movie
is sacred and should be held as such by all true Romans. Anyone that has
even a most elementary understanding of Roman History knows that is it
clearly not Historically accurate - but look at it what it is - it shows the
Roman Empire in all of its might and Glory and also shows its terror ... of
course those of us who bought the DVD will also see the deleted scenes where
it shows Christians being fed to the Lions - it is a Glorious production and
I look forward to seeing more on the big screen.

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: exitil@-------- [mailto:exitil@--------]
Sent: Friday, 20 April 2001 2:44 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Gladiator

In a message dated 4/19/01 11:21:50 PM Central Daylight Time,
luciussentius@-------- writes:

> I also found an error in Lucius Sergius' reasoning.
> The did say that he fought at Vindabonna with Maximus,
> but later in the movie, to the African hunter, Maximus
> says that he has fought in battles all over the
> empire, not only in Germania.

Maximus the General, his servant, and one or two of the people who fought in

the arena with him had fought at Vindobonna and had thought it important
enough to specifically point out that particular battle for him to remember
them, or perhaps just for the sake of the importance of that battle itself.

So my guess would be, though I don't know the history, that there was a
large
or famous battle that took place at that site.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
**********************************************************************

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Gladiator
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:31:21 +1000

Ave

Waited a minute and thought about it - sorry - still disagree Lucius
Cornelius Sulla Felix

The movie is a sacred legend - that is it..

Respectfully,

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: robert woolwine [mailto:alexious@--------]
Sent: Friday, 20 April 2001 4:24 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: RE: [novaroma] Gladiator

Ave!

Wait a minute...a movie sacred..I respectfully disagree. Even when I was
interviewed by the Associated Press and CBS Radio I criticized parts of the
movie, just as I praised parts of the movie. Gladiator, like most movies
have good points and bad points. Both, in my honest opinion can be
discussed openly. In particular I enjoyed Proconsul Q.Fabius's critique of
the movie when he was being interviewed, given his informal role in the
pre-production of the film.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

------Original Message------
From: Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
To: "'novaroma@--------'" <novaroma@-------->
Sent: April 20, 2001 6:12:20 AM GMT
Subject: RE: [novaroma] Gladiator

Vale

Totally inappropriate to have any threads criticising Gladiator - this movie
is sacred and should be held as such by all true Romans. Anyone that has
even a most elementary understanding of Roman History knows that is it
clearly not Historically accurate - but look at it what it is - it shows the
Roman Empire in all of its might and Glory and also shows its terror ... of
course those of us who bought the DVD will also see the deleted scenes where
it shows Christians being fed to the Lions - it is a Glorious production and
I look forward to seeing more on the big screen.

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: exitil@-------- [mailto:exitil@--------]
Sent: Friday, 20 April 2001 2:44 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Gladiator

In a message dated 4/19/01 11:21:50 PM Central Daylight Time,
luciussentius@-------- writes:

> I also found an error in Lucius Sergius' reasoning.
> The did say that he fought at Vindabonna with Maximus,
> but later in the movie, to the African hunter, Maximus
> says that he has fought in battles all over the
> empire, not only in Germania.

Maximus the General, his servant, and one or two of the people who fought in

the arena with him had fought at Vindobonna and had thought it important
enough to specifically point out that particular battle for him to remember
them, or perhaps just for the sake of the importance of that battle itself.

So my guess would be, though I don't know the history, that there was a
large
or famous battle that took place at that site.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
**********************************************************************

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Gladiator
From:	alexanderprobus@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 07:36:47 -0000

Salve Lucii Sentii,

> I was wondering....where is Vindabonna exactly?

Vindobona = Vienna/Wien the capital of Austria. There Marcus Aurelius
die. His head quarter during the Marcomanian campaign was in
Carnuntum about 40 km to the east of Vindobona. BTW the wars were on
the present territories of modern Slovakia and Czech republic i.e.
our Nova Roman regions of Pannonia Inferior and Bohemia within the
province of Pannonia ( http://www.geocities.com/alexprobus ).
Both Vindobona and Carnuntum were in the very north-western corner of
the province of Pannonia antiqua.

Bene vale

Alexander I.C. Probus M.
Propraetor Pannoniae


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: human rights as defined by UN
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 08:06:50 -0400

Salve Drusus: I agree 100% with your statement. What we have is simply too
much government. And it continues to grow. I live in Canada, and a few of us
can see were it is leading, and I don't like the destination. What I can see
is a gradual erosion of freedom over the last half century, and it appears
that most people don't notice it happening because it is so gradual. Thirty
years ago, our elected representatives to Parliament where in charge of
legislation. But now we also have unelected judges, (the Canadian Supreme
Court), also making law. They did not perform that function in the past.
These judges are appointed by the Prime Minister, but that is only part of
the problem. There are also other ways we have been losing freedom. However
the majority of people seem either to not see it happening, or welcome it as
being given "security". I think part of the problem has to do with most
people having no sense of history, and having short memories. Those of us
who are freedom loving Canadians seem to be in short supply, or believe they
are helpless to do anything about it. I find that most people who appreciate
freedom are older European immigrants who experienced Communism and Fascism
first hand. They know, because they know what it is like when freedom is
lost. Needless to say, one of my favourite Goddesses is the Goddess
Libertas.
Only my personal opinion. Vale, ... A.Cato, ... Rogator
----- Original Message -----
From: <lsicinius@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 7:25 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: human rights as defined by UN

> --- In novaroma@--------, "A. Cato" <a.cato@s...> wrote:
> > Salve: I just read over the United Nations Declaration of Human
> Rights. It
> > looks like an honorable document, but the whole thing is a joke. I doubt
> > that twenty-five percent of the member nations honor that document. The
> > rights in that document are routinely violated by most of the member
> > nations. It is sort of like the former Soviet Union's noble sounding
> > Constitution and freedoms documents that weren't worth the paper
> they were
> > written on. Vale, ... A. Cato, ... Rogator
>
> Salve Cato,
>
> I agree with you, at least as far as the thing being a joke, but I
> don't consider it to be "an honorable document" but rather a
> cotradictory mess that should have been named the "Declaration of
> Human Rights, Wishes and Whims"
>
> Mixed in with the real rights are absurdities like the "Rights" to
> "free" education and Paid Holidays or "The Right to Work" These so
> called Rights involve forcing someone to give you something that you
> are not entitled to. Take that "Free" education for example. Someone
> has to pay the costs of education, and that someone is the taxpayer.
> The term "free education" is an outright lie. It's a taxpayer
> supported education, and it's not a right, it's a privillage.
>
> Vale,
> Drusus
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Gladiator
From:	coriolanus@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:09:03 -0000

Ave

I must agree with Sulla. This movie has good and bad points, and
there was more bad points than good for me.
But if you like it watch it.

Vale

Coriolanus

--- In novaroma@--------, robert woolwine <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave!
>
> Wait a minute...a movie sacred..I respectfully disagree. Even when
I was interviewed by the Associated Press and CBS Radio I criticized
parts of the movie, just as I praised parts of the movie. Gladiator,
like most movies have good points and bad points. Both, in my honest
opinion can be discussed openly. In particular I enjoyed Proconsul
Q.Fabius's critique of the movie when he was being interviewed, given
his informal role in the pre-production of the film.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> ------Original Message------
> F-------- Ma-------- Bi--------lt;ma--------_bi--------...>
> To: "'novaroma@--------'" <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: April 20, 2001 6:12:20 AM GMT
> Subject: RE: [novaroma] Gladiator
>
>
> Vale
>
> Totally inappropriate to have any threads criticising Gladiator -
this movie
> is sacred and should be held as such by all true Romans. Anyone
that has
> even a most elementary understanding of Roman History knows that is
it
> clearly not Historically accurate - but look at it what it is - it
shows the
> Roman Empire in all of its might and Glory and also shows its
terror ... of
> course those of us who bought the DVD will also see the deleted
scenes where
> it shows Christians being fed to the Lions - it is a Glorious
production and
> I look forward to seeing more on the big screen.
>
> Marcus Sentius Claudius
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: exitil@-------- [m--------o:exitil@--------]
> Sent: Friday, 20 April 2001 2:44 Pm
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Gladiator
>
>
> In a message dated 4/19/01 11:21:50 PM Central Daylight Time,
> luciussentius@-------- writes:
>
> > I also found an error in Lucius Sergius' reasoning.
> > The did say that he fought at Vindabonna with Maximus,
> > but later in the movie, to the African hunter, Maximus
> > says that he has fought in battles all over the
> > empire, not only in Germania.
>
> Maximus the General, his servant, and one or two of the people who
fought in
>
> the arena with him had fought at Vindobonna and had thought it
important
> enough to specifically point out that particular battle for him to
remember
> them, or perhaps just for the sake of the importance of that battle
itself.
>
> So my guess would be, though I don't know the history, that there
was a
> large
> or famous battle that took place at that site.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
**********************************************************************
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom
they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please
notify
> the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.
>
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
> for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
>
**********************************************************************
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Gladiator
From:	"Marek Grajek" <MarekJG@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:11:15 +0200

> -----Original Message-----
> From: alexanderprobus@-------- [mailto:alexanderprobus@--------]
> Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 9:37 AM
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: Gladiator
>
>
> Salve Lucii Sentii,
>
>
> > I was wondering....where is Vindabonna exactly?
>
> Vindobona = Vienna/Wien the capital of Austria. There Marcus Aurelius
> die. His head quarter during the Marcomanian campaign was in
> Carnuntum about 40 km to the east of Vindobona. BTW the wars were on
> the present territories of modern Slovakia and Czech republic i.e.
> our Nova Roman regions of Pannonia Inferior and Bohemia within the
> province of Pannonia ( http://www.geocities.com/alexprobus ).
> Both Vindobona and Carnuntum were in the very north-western corner of
> the province of Pannonia antiqua.
>
> Bene vale
>
> Alexander I.C. Probus M.
> Propraetor Pannoniae

Salve,

I believe Marcus Aurelus transferred during the Marcomann wars his
headquarters from Carnuntum to Sirmium (close to where Sava meets Danube,
which is equivalent to Belgrade rather, than Vindobona/Vienna), where he
died.

Vale,

Caius Marius Aquileus

--------------R--E--K--L--A--M--A---------------
Masz hiper-potrzeby? Zrob hiper-zakupy!
Hiperia. 65 tysiecy artykulow z dostawa do domu.
Czysta przyjemnosc. http://hiperia.interia.pl/


Subject:	[novaroma] RE: Name-change issue
From:	bvm3@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:32:15 -0000

M. Apollonius Formosanus Mario Cornelio Scipioni S.P.D.

Marius Cornelius Scipio scripsit:

<snip>

This is precisely why I have a difference of opinion with you, mi
Formosane - making a very broad statement and then trying to apply it
to a very narrow case. BTW, my comment was made after pulling out
several of my old psych textbooks and doing some summarizing. The
existence of normal human variation on sexual expression is not
disputed, it's your interpretation of what it consists of and of
appropriate responses to it.

MAF: Good! I am glad we agree that we live in a world as members of a
species who have natural sexual variations - which would tend to
suggest that any responses we make be equally varied and appropriate.

>Perhaps an argument put forward sometime earlier in this >discussion
may clarify things a bit. If I met Lucius Marius in real >life, not
knowing anything but his external expression of >sexuality (i.e.
dress and body shape) and due to my >observation concluded that he is
a female, and addressed him >thus, would I be offending him?

MAF: My answer - an honest mistake should not be taken as an
intentional insult. As long as you are willing to accept a correction
from his or someone who knows him with good grace.

>Now if I had further knowledge that Lucius regards himself to >be
transgendered, and prefers to be addressed as a male, that >would
perhaps be a different matter; but the arguments I've >seen from you
to date still seem to indicate that I or any other >observer in fact
must somehow magically
>know this situation and respond accordingly.

MAF: I do not see why you assume this of my point of view. In fact my
point is that a person wishing to be recognised as of a certain sex
easily might do well on the street to dress in the clothes of that
sex, and in correspondence or on the internet use a name of that sex.
And that is precisely why the right to do that latter consistently
and without ambiguity in Nova Roma seems to me a normal matter that
should not be interfered with. (By "consistently and without
ambiguity" I am referring to one's official name as well as any
unofficial ones.)

>This is being discussed as a matter of human rights - and >arguably
some sort of case could be built on that. But to date >the discussion
seems to be centered on perhaps the worst >point to discuss: the
accomodations that society must make for >a member's desires to be
addressed in a manner other than >what may be outwardly apparent on
first contact.

MAF: In our context we cannot see people, but only meet them on the
internet most of the time, where a correctly-gendered name would
immediately solve problems of knowing how to address a person in
accord with his or her wishes, and thus courteously. Simple.

>Yes, we must make accomodations for our members, >otherwise our
society cannot be valid - but when these >accomodations become so
burdensome that they actually >damage the fiber of social contact,

MAF: I do not see anything even vaguely burdensome about a person's
using his name and expecting people to understand the gender he or
she recognises as his or hers. It is only the artificial prevention
of this natural process which causes a burden for anyone.

>perhaps we need to rethink our approach. As you have seen in
>my posts on this matter, I have tried to discuss the issue as >much
as I can without involving ad hominem attacks or slighting >the
principals. However, a lot of the discussion around this >subject
seems to revolve around how "SULLA is an evil man, >and he came up
with this evil plan just to torture poor Lucius!" >With all due
respect, I think by now this position has been >proven to be patently
absurd. I'm getting a little bit sick and >tired of seeing these
attacks, and I think they have no place in >our discussions.

MAF: I have tried to avoid repeating these facts as much as possible
in the current round, and have even expressed a certain affection for
our Censor and stated that I had no desire to see him defeated in a
personal way. It is clear from his own words, however, that Sulla
regards only certain sorts of human sexuality as real or valid or
proper in some sense, and wants to use State powers to limit the
normal functioning of those people who do not fit into his selected
types. You and I on the other hand have agreed in this forum that
there are in fact a variety of types and that for each his/her own
functioning is "normal".

>This matter is coming to a vote soon enough. As for me, I think >I
have put forward some points that I regarded as germane to >the
discussion. I believe that you have put forward your point >of view
quite eloquently, and although I may not agree with a >lot of what
you're saying, I'm willing to respect it. I will await >the outcome
of the vote on this, and I will (more importantly) >abide by whatever
decision our cives come to on this matter - >even if I may not
personally agree with it. I think we can all >agree that although
this method may not give us the best of all >worlds, it can at least
give us one we can all live in and prosper >with.

MAF: I thank you for refraining from ad hominem attacks, and so
elevating the level of our discussions. That is always something very
much to be wished for. As to whether the democratic method is
infallible in making a satisfactory world, I am less sanguine - all
we can do is hope. Procedurally, though, it is the right way, and
Consul Vedius is to be thanked for making it possible.

Bene vale!


Subject:	[novaroma] A Bill Of Rights
From:	"Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:21:43 -0000

Salvete omnes,

There has been a lot of discussion lately regarding the nature of
citizens rights, and the possibility of including a Bill of Rights in
the Nova Roman constitution. While I believe this is an excellent
idea, I think what Nova Roma really needs is a Bill of Rights and
Responsibilities. I fear that it has become all too common today in
our "me" generation to focus only upon the rights due to the
individual, and ignore the civil and moral responsibilities that
accompany those rights. A democracy, by definition, requires the
participation of an educated, responsible citizenry to succeed. To
quote Thomas Jefferson:

"If once [the people] become inattentive to the public affairs,
you and I, and Congress and Assemblies, Judges and Governors,
shall all become wolves. It seems to be the law of our general
nature, in spite of individual exceptions."

While in most cases, our responsibilities as individual citizens are
already spelled out in various laws, I think it would be a good idea
to consolidate them in one place, along side the rights they coincide
with. For example:

Right -The right to freedom of speech & expression.

Responsibility -The responsibility to speak truthfully, avoiding
libel or slander.

Right -The right to vote.

Responsibility -To participate in our government and
elections, and stay informed on relevant issues.

Obviously, these are only the most bare-boned examples but I
feel they serve to illustrate my intent. I would like to point out
that I am not suggesting that civic responsibilities, such as voting,
should be required by law � but simply spelled out as an ideal that
all citizens should aspire too. Given the current state of citizen
participation in Nova Roma, I would say that we are failing as a
Democracy. In a club or similar organization, that wouldn't be a
serious issue, be we are not simply a "club" � we are a micro-nation
aspiring to eventual sovereignty and macro-national status. We need
an active citizen body, one that is aware of all of it's
responsibilities and willing to live up to them if our grand
experiment in to succeed.

I welcome other citizen's comments and opinions regarding this
possibility, and the idea of civic responsibility in general. Gratias
multas for my time on the soap-box!

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Legatus of Massachusetts


Subject:	[novaroma] Provincial Edicta - Administration of Australia and appointment of Legates
From:	"Daniel Place" <Danat2000@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 01:14:24 +0930

Edict for Australian Provincia
I, Marcus Arcadius Pius, Propraetor of Australia, hereby issue this edict concerning the division of Australia into administrative regios and the appointment of Legates;

I ) The province of Australia is hereby divided into 4 administrative regios. These shall be known as;

Australia Austrorientalis: The Australian States of Victoria and Tasmania.

Australia Orientalis Superior : The Australian States of New South Wales and Queensland, with the addition of the Australian Capital Territory.

Australia Medius: The Australian State of South Australia along with the Northern Territory.

Australia Occidentalis: The Australian State of Western Australia.

II) Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura is hereby appointed as Legate for Australia Medius.

III) Marcus Sentius Claudius is hereby appointed as Legate for Australia Austrorientalis.

I have every confidence in these two citizens and look forward to working with them to help our Res Publica grow in Australia.

Dated this 21st day of April, 2754 AUC (2001 CE)

Marcus Arcadius Pius, Propraetor Australia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Inclusion vs. Exclusion
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:31:18 -0700 (PDT)

Gnaeus Salix Astur Senato Populoque Romano S.P.D.

Avete Romani Quirites.

I have been reading all your posts of late and, being a brand new
citizen, there is an aspect of these discussions that has shocked me.
I want to share my thoughts and impressions with all of you, if you
don't mind. It is not my intention to offend anyone, and thus I will
speak about ideas and attitudes, and not about specific individuals.

I know I will probably not convince anyone to change his/her ideas.
That is not my intention. I just want to bring this topic to discussion
so that all of us in Nova Roma can dedicate a moment of thought to
reflect on what do we want Nova Roma to be.

I have read several times on this list words that seem to express a
desire of exclusion. What I mean is that, sometimes, some citizens seem
to think that all those citizens that do not participate in the
building of Nova Roma should be excluded from it. They write about
making citizenship application more difficult, in order to weed out
those applicants not "really" interested in Nova Roma. They express
their desire of a taxation system that makes taxpaying a condition for
citizenship. They seem to think that Nova Roma should be only "for the
worthy", for "those who show interest". I think this kind of attitude
is pretty destructive for the objectives of Nova Roma.

As I am a new citizen, I can easily recall the first time I read about
Nova Roma. I didn't really know what it is. I came to Nova Roma's web
page by chance and, having always been very interested in all Roman
issues, I started to read about it.

After a couple of days, I decided to apply for citizenship. I took this
decision because citizenship application was not too cumbersome (I
would have NEVER sent a snail mail application, or would have accepted
to pay money to an organization of which I knew hardly nothing). I
though that citizenship promised a chance to help building a new way to
understand my own love for Rome. But I didn't really start to
understand what Nova Roma was really about until AFTER apllying for
citizenship. I think you will agree that, up to now, my interest seems
to have increased rather than decreased. But that's due to a general
sense of inclusion and acceptance, due to the warm welcome I received
from Novoromans.

I agree that it would be nice if all the citizens of Nova Roma had a
higher level of participation. But I think that the way to obtain this
should not be by closing ourselves, by weeding those who do not
participate. I think we should attract them by broadening our minds,
instead of closing them. Perhaps we should concentrate on advertising
the several sodalitates, on creating local chapters, on advancing our
activities beyond politics and organization. I understand that not
everybody is so keen on politics as I am, nor so interested in
organizing a new province.

I think our efforts should go in the direction of interesting both
citizens and prospective citizens, and not in "weeding out" the
citizens with a low level of participation and centering ourselves
around "the worthy", "the faithful", or whatever you want to call them.

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Gladiator
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:31:45 EDT

Which is why it was an error in the movie - M. Aurelius did not die in
Germania.

It's probably an important thing to have errors like this in movies, so
that we don't confuse them with real life. It may help us to remember
that they are only entertainment and not history lessons.

(Of course, one could argue that history lessons are largely fiction
also.)

Valete,

L. Sergius Aust.

On 4/20/01 2:36 AM alexanderprobus@--------
(alexanderprobus@--------) wrote:

>Salve Lucii Sentii,
>
>
>> I was wondering....where is Vindabonna exactly?
>
>Vindobona = Vienna/Wien the capital of Austria. There Marcus Aurelius
>die. His head quarter during the Marcomanian campaign was in
>Carnuntum about 40 km to the east of Vindobona. BTW the wars were on
>the present territories of modern Slovakia and Czech republic i.e.
>our Nova Roman regions of Pannonia Inferior and Bohemia within the
>province of Pannonia ( http://www.geocities.com/alexprobus ).
>Both Vindobona and Carnuntum were in the very north-western corner of
>the province of Pannonia antiqua.
>
>Bene vale
>
>Alexander I.C. Probus M.
>Propraetor Pannoniae
>

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


Subject:	[novaroma] Gladiator
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:58:34 -0400 (EDT)

I too, just got around to seeing the movie. Movies are movies and they
do have the ablity to bring into focus some of those scenes which as
Nova Romans we hold dear. However, for a variety of reasons they also
bring to our senses those factors such as historical signifigance which
are incorrect, and it can be difficult indeed to separate those aspects
from the aspects that we can accept.

I would suppose that to me, the most vivid and realistic scenes were the
battle scenes on the frontier with the cold, the mud, and the freezing
weather, and the concern of a good commander for the welfare of those
who serve under him. It brings home to me the toughness of the Legions,
and the iron dicipline that was required to maintain such a large army
in that situation. The logistic supply of a legion in that wilderness
must have been a triple nightmare.

I appreciated the movie for what it was, just as I appreciated the Roman
movie about the siege of Masada. However, I am afraid that I do not see
modern movies as sacred, due very simply to the fact that they are
created by men with the intent to sell them as entertainment The
forever requirement that there must be a love triangle always associated
with great actions to me is trite, and the problem of not seeing to the
historical accuracy while I understand the necessity often. I do not
necessarily agree with.

So, movies I enjoy, without taking them too seriously, and while I do
not indulge myself in tearing them apart, I try not to let them take the
place of documented reading to insure my accurate view of the world
which to me was so vibrant, and so alive, that I think no movie, however
well researched, and established will ever show the true magnificence
and depth of terror of the Roman World and Culture. It is a world that
I am pleased to study and enjoy from the distance of a few thousand
years, but a culture which I am exceedingly glad that I do not have to
endure in reality.

I suppose that some will ask the why of that statement. My reasons are
very simple, in that I have a good idea of my capacities in the world
around me, and I seriously doubt that I would have risen much higher in
the Roman culture than an optio or perhaps a junior centurion. Perhaps
even a miles immunes as my honored adopted anchestor was. My clarity of
mind is not that extensive that I would have risen "to the top of the
heap", and my position somewhere near the bottom with a short brutal
life, sour wine, tasteless meal cakes and a corrupt law system, makes me
very glad that I have the privelage to study this culture rather than
live it.

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


Subject:	[novaroma] Festival
From:	"Marcos Boehme" <m_arminius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:50:15 -0300

Salve, Coryphaeus Musarum

Nothing new from the winners of each Collegia?
Perhaps i need to catch someone to receive the Cerealia Laurel without waiting the Musarum...
Perhaps we can forget the formalities and select the winners nominally, without the rogatores...
By the way, what are all the participants of our festival? I will forward to our Aediles Curules.

Vale
Marcus Arminius Maior
Aedilis Plebis

Get 250 color business cards for FREE!
http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Festival
From:	mansker@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:06:21 -0000

As a a rogator for the Musarum, I must let you know that the results
were sent to the head of the Musarum yesterday after voting had
closed. I understood that they would be announcing the winners soon.

Vale

Gaia Flacca Severa

--- In novaroma@--------, "Marcos Boehme" <m_arminius@l...> wrote:
> Salve, Coryphaeus Musarum
>
> Nothing new from the winners of each Collegia?
> Perhaps i need to catch someone to receive the Cerealia Laurel
without waiting the Musarum...
> Perhaps we can forget the formalities and select the winners
nominally, without the rogatores...
> By the way, what are all the participants of our festival? I will
forward to our Aediles Curules.
>
> Vale
> Marcus Arminius Maior
> Aedilis Plebis
>
>
>
>
> Get 250 color business cards for FREE!
> http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Festival
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:21:34 -0000

---
In novaroma@--------, "Marcos Boehme" <m_arminius@l...> wrote:
Salve Marce Armini:

The day is not over yet :)

I am sure there is a logical explanation for any delay in
announcement.

Bene vale,
Pompeia

> Salve, Coryphaeus Musarum
>
> Nothing new from the winners of each Collegia?
> Perhaps i need to catch someone to receive the Cerealia Laurel
without waiting the Musarum...
> Perhaps we can forget the formalities and select the winners
nominally, without the rogatores...
> By the way, what are all the participants of our festival? I will
forward to our Aediles Curules.
>
> Vale
> Marcus Arminius Maior
> Aedilis Plebis
>
>
>
>
> Get 250 color business cards for FREE!
> http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Inclusion vs. Exclusion
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 20:28:29 +0200

>I think our efforts should go in the direction of interesting both
>citizens and prospective citizens, and not in "weeding out" the
>citizens with a low level of participation and centering ourselves
>around "the worthy", "the faithful", or whatever you want to call them.
>
>=====
>Bene Valete!
>Gnaeus Salix Astur.
>Civis romanus.

Salve Honorable Gnaeus Salix Astur!

Im am proud to be your friend! Well done!

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
Join the List for the Thule Provincia in Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://www.acc.umu.se/~kerish/novaroma/main.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80


Subject:	[novaroma] A question regarding Gens
From:	Calpurnia <darta_arelia@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:39:16 -0700 (PDT)

Salve,

I have a question: the paterfamilias for my gens is as
far as I can tell, relatively inactive. and I have no
real way of contacting him, and would rather not
contact him as he's my ex-husband. I've spoken with a
censor on this (a few months ago) and was informed
that to leave my gens i would have to either get
permission from the paterfamilas or drop citizenship
and reapply after a set time, and join a new gens. I'd
really rather not do either, so i'm just stuck here
belonging to a gens I am the only active member of and
a paterfamilias who has pretty much dropped off the
face of the earth. I'd like some advice on what I
should do from here.

Vale,
Claudia Aucelia Calpurnia

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Inclusion vs. Exclusion
From:	"javier mardones" <aries73@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:49:15 -0700

Salve Quirites

Perfectly in accord with Gneus Salix about that claims to exclude to the people that don't show the interest in NRoma. That make me to remember the "Patriotic certifies", that gives the Convention in the French Revolution to the citizen that did "public" shows of patriotism (for do not be suspicious of "enemy of the revolution").

Please Quirites! let to Minerva light your minds!

Gravitas and comom sense!

We know that the impacient people want to do the things run fast. Patientia. Roma wasn't made in a day.

Vale.

M.Cornelius Chilensis

Post Escriptum: I hope that takes the idea of Porta Solaris...

-----Original Message-----
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur salixastur@--------
Sent: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:31:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Inclusion vs. Exclusion

Gnaeus Salix Astur Senato Populoque Romano S.P.D.

Avete Romani Quirites.

I have been reading all your posts of late and, being a brand new
citizen, there is an aspect of these discussions that has shocked me.
I want to share my thoughts and impressions with all of you, if you
don't mind. It is not my intention to offend anyone, and thus I will
speak about ideas and attitudes, and not about specific individuals.

I know I will probably not convince anyone to change his/her ideas.
That is not my intention. I just want to bring this topic to discussion
so that all of us in Nova Roma can dedicate a moment of thought to
reflect on what do we want Nova Roma to be.

I have read several times on this list words that seem to express a
desire of exclusion. What I mean is that, sometimes, some citizens seem
to think that all those citizens that do not participate in the
building of Nova Roma should be excluded from it. They write about
making citizenship application more difficult, in order to weed out
those applicants not "really" interested in Nova Roma. They express
their desire of a taxation system that makes taxpaying a condition for
citizenship. They seem to think that Nova Roma should be only "for the
worthy", for "those who show interest". I think this kind of attitude
is pretty destructive for the objectives of Nova Roma.

As I am a new citizen, I can easily recall the first time I read about
Nova Roma. I didn't really know what it is. I came to Nova Roma's web
page by chance and, having always been very interested in all Roman
issues, I started to read about it.

After a couple of days, I decided to apply for citizenship. I took this
decision because citizenship application was not too cumbersome (I
would have NEVER sent a snail mail application, or would have accepted
to pay money to an organization of which I knew hardly nothing). I
though that citizenship promised a chance to help building a new way to
understand my own love for Rome. But I didn't really start to
understand what Nova Roma was really about until AFTER apllying for
citizenship. I think you will agree that, up to now, my interest seems
to have increased rather than decreased. But that's due to a general
sense of inclusion and acceptance, due to the warm welcome I received
from Novoromans.

I agree that it would be nice if all the citizens of Nova Roma had a
higher level of participation. But I think that the way to obtain this
should not be by closing ourselves, by weeding those who do not
participate. I think we should attract them by broadening our minds,
instead of closing them. Perhaps we should concentrate on advertising
the several sodalitates, on creating local chapters, on advancing our
activities beyond politics and organization. I understand that not
everybody is so keen on politics as I am, nor so interested in
organizing a new province.

I think our efforts should go in the direction of interesting both
citizens and prospective citizens, and not in "weeding out" the
citizens with a low level of participation and centering ourselves
around "the worthy", "the faithful", or whatever you want to call them.

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

___________________________________________________________________________
Visit http://www.visto.com/info, your free web-based communications center.
Visto.com. Life on the Dot.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Gladiator
From:	QFabiusMax@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:09:19 EDT

I>> was wondering....where is Vindabonna exactly?>>

Vindobona is modern day Vienna, the current capital of Austria.

It was a Legionary fortess, garrisoned by XIII Gemina.

Vale
Q. Fabius Maximus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Inclusion vs. Exclusion
From:	MoonFerri82@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:59:42 EDT

I do agree that we should direct a CERTAIN amount effort to drawing back
in the interest of those less involved. However, it should not be solely upon
us to do so. Those people must have a want and desire to so...to get involved
and to play an active role in the shaping of Nova Roma. Every citizen who
joined Nova Roma did so with the knowledge of what it is and what is wishes
to become. If some of those citizens don't show any interest in
participating, regardless of how much we try to get them involved, then why
should they be held in the same standing as citizens that do?

Nova Roma is still in its infancy, and if we are to ever reach (and
surpass) the ideals on which it was founded we MUST have the full
participation of every citizen. Nova Roma is not a club....it is not
something to which we just belong...it is much more then that, and deserves
every bit of effort we can afford. Nova Roma will never reach its full
potential unless we have all citizens, and not just a handful, doing their
part. So yes, if that means that we reward those that take an active role,
and exclude those that merely lend their name and nothing more...I think that
is something we must truly consider.

Respectfully,
Gaius Cornelius Nycticorax

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Gladiator
From:	Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 21:30:02 +0200

Salve, mi amice Alexander Probe,
salvete omnes.

If I remember correctly, Vindobona was part of Noricum, and Carnuntum
(Bad Deutschaltenburg / Petronell) part of Pannonia?

Valete
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Praetor

alexanderprobus@-------- wrote:
>
> Salve Lucii Sentii,
>
> > I was wondering....where is Vindabonna exactly?
>
> Vindobona = Vienna/Wien the capital of Austria. There Marcus Aurelius
> die. His head quarter during the Marcomanian campaign was in
> Carnuntum about 40 km to the east of Vindobona. BTW the wars were on
> the present territories of modern Slovakia and Czech republic i.e.
> our Nova Roman regions of Pannonia Inferior and Bohemia within the
> province of Pannonia ( http://www.geocities.com/alexprobus ).
> Both Vindobona and Carnuntum were in the very north-western corner of
> the province of Pannonia antiqua.
>
> Bene vale
>
> Alexander I.C. Probus M.
> Propraetor Pannoniae
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A question regarding Gens
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:59:23 -0500

Salve Calpurnia

> I have a question: the paterfamilias for my gens is as
> far as I can tell, relatively inactive. and I have no
<amputatio>
> really rather not do either, so i'm just stuck here
> belonging to a gens I am the only active member of and
> a paterfamilias who has pretty much dropped off the
> face of the earth. I'd like some advice on what I
> should do from here.

I'm surprised the censores will not work with you on this, as:
1. there's no law on our books requiring a pater/materfamilias'
permission to leave a gens.
2. you've divorced D Aucelius. In Roma Antiqua, a woman who was
divorced left her husband's gens and returned to the gens of her
father. In your case, I'd expect that you'd be free to either create
your own new gens or join another existing one.
3. Decius Aucelius is inactive.

Perhaps a solution would be to ask the censores to contact D Aucelius
for you, with the understanding that you'd be declared materfamilias of
Gens Aucelia if he didn't respond within a reasonable interval (perhaps
a similar time frame to the 45 days specified in the recent "Edict
Regarding Failure of Paterfamilias to respond to applications").

Vale
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach
conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant."
-Helen Keller


Subject:	[novaroma] ATTN: Winners of the Cerealia / Romae Conditio Festival contest
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:23:34 +0200

Salvete Quirites Novae Romae,

As the Coryphaeus of the Sodalitas Musarum, I hereby announce the results of the recent contest held in Nova Roma, in honour of the goddess Ceres and Roma herself. The winners are as following:

I. Clio (3 submissions)

Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix - Colonial Institutions
Publius Gramatinus Albius - The Cursus Honorum
Winner: Salonina Flacca - Pompeii

II. Calliope (2 submissions)

Gaia Natalina Casca - Soldier of Rome
Winner: Sextus Apollonius Draco - Nova Roma; Capita XIV et XV

III. Euterpe (no submissions)

- no winner -

IV. Terpsichore (no submissions)

- no winner -

V. Polyhymnia (2 submissions)

Prima Lucilla Cornelia Fortunata - In Vesta Speramus
Winner: Lucilla Cornelia Cinna - What Is Love?

VI. Erato (5 submissions)

Prima Apollonia Aquara - Fear II
Sextus Apollonius Draco - Lashknife
Lucilla Cornelia Cinna - Chrysialis
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus - Wings of Fire
Winner: Helena Galeria Aureliana - Stardust / Urban Renewal / Metamorphosis

VII. Thalia (4 submissions)

Domna Claudia Auspicata - The Conversation
Sextus Apollonius Draco - The Senate's New Year 2754
Gaius Cassius Nerva - The Proposal
Winner: Pompeia Cornelia Strabo - The Life of Vidi

VIII. Melpomene (no submissions)

- no winner -

IX. Urania (2 submissions)

Sextus Apollonius Draco - The Solar System pars V: Mars
Winner: Marcus Arminius Maior - The Constellations

X. Apollo (1 submission)

Winner: Lucius Mauricius Procopius - Geni Patris Familiaris

- Congratulations to all winners!
- Gratias to all participants, may you participate again next year
- Gratias to all those on the Chorus Musarum who showed their engagement
- Gratias maximas to our Rogatores, Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator and Gaia Flacca Severa for doing the mathematical work

Valete bene!
Sextus Apollonius Draco,
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
Darkling_Crawler, Yahoo IM

"Come, fly the teeth of the wind;
share my wings" (FSOL)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] ATTN: Winners of the Cerealia / Romae Conditio Festival contest
From:	SkaldElf@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:12:52 EDT

Many congratulations to everyone.

Aeternia


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Inclusion vs. Exclusion
From:	Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:56:39 -0700 (PDT)

Salve Gnaeus Salix Astur,

Very well written, well stated, and well considered,
indeed.

=====
Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs Peregrinvs
(this is a post for which I accept all responsibility)
"The cosmos works by harmony of tensions, like the lyre and the bow."
"Time is a game played beautifully by children."
Heraclitus of Ephesus
HeraclitusFreehold@--------

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Subject:	[novaroma] Inclusion vs. Exclusion -A different perspective<Long>
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:01:49 -0700

Salvete Gnae Salix et Omnes;

This will be a slightly different mail than the
one I originally intended. However, Gnaeus Salix
raises some interesting points that -no disrespect
intended, are a bit one-dimensional in their
conclusions. You are a very new and welcome
civis Gnaeus Salix, and as a new citizen I understand
you have a lot of fire and solid goals to
attain. I respectfully submit that due to
your new status, that you don't have the
benefit yet of all the dynamics of previous
discussions on this matter and related ones.
These topics were being discussed long before
my arrival and certainly before yours as well.

Please also accept my disclaimer that I neither
intend nor hope to come across negatively or
in a personal manner -for I respect your goals
and ideas very much. Please also be advised
that there's 'more to the story' then
you present.

For those that have been active in the
Nova Roman outreach and have had very long discussions
on citizenship in the past, including attracting
new members (not to be argumentative mi Gnae, but
you are not in fact the first person to raise these
issues,) it is a bit closed-ended to assume that
because someone espouses some form of citizen
verification that it means one thing, one thing
only and that it is intended solely for the
purposes of exclusion.

(It may surprise you to note that some of those
who have mentioned the evil term 'snail mail'
have been some of the most vocal proponents of
positive recruitment as well. -More on this
later however.)

You have a point regarding learning what Nova Roma
is from the outside. This is largely why the website
including all of its inner contents are exposed to
the public and also why the primary lists are all
public. Myself and others spent many weeks trawling
around these lists and the website itself prior to
making formal decisions to join. You are very right
in stating that it can take a while to figure out
what NR means to us as individuals.

To synthesize my own perspective around what has been
written over the years and months in NR, it is
abundantly clear that NR means different things to different
people. This is a safe conclusion and certainly one that
I would not argue. As others have directly and
indirectly suggested, part of the trick moving forward
is to get a larger consensus on what NR actually 'is.'
Though we will likely always have our individual
opinions on this point, we should be able to agree
on most of it on the overall whole of the larger
picture.

In actuality, many of the tangential discussions that
have been going on of late still come down to the
same thing -'what do we think of when we think of NR.'
To some of us, it's a quasi-organization. To some of us,
it's just a club. To some of us it is a curiosity or
hobby toy at best. To others it is a nation -and all
points in between.

So, in going forward -I propose that the 'macroquestion'
if you will, continues to be 'Nation vs. club/group/organization.'
Since myself and others have spoken at length regarding
this point before, I will not go into 'dissertation'
mode. Suffice it to say for the point of discussion,
those that view NR as a club/group/org are obviously
going to see NR in a *drastically* different way
than those that see it as a *Nation.* It is not up to
me to say which perspective is right or wrong, but
answering the question makes a huge difference in
where we go from here.

Personally (usual disclaimers apply,) I'm of the
'Nation' school of thought. Am I saying that my
way is the 'right' way? No. But it is how I feel and
as such, it affects everything I do and say in
regards to Nova Roman discussions.

So, using this perspective as a point of reference,
I can say how I personally see certain issues. In
general:

1-Nations require basic things from its citizens.
These things are not based on convenience, or
minimization of the 'hassle factor.'

2-Nations have immigration policies.

3-Nations have taxation systems to maintain themselves.

4-Nations employ all manners of officials to
attend to the business of managing a nation.

I could go on and on, but I think we get the idea.
As I've said, many others more erudite than myself
have written on this. (Yes, I know neither of these
lists is even remotely comprehensive and the contents
could be argued -it's simply my proposed partial list :-)

So, what are some facets of a club/hobby/organization:

1-Easy to join (typically, but depends on the club.)
Might just fill out a post card or a web form, send
in a check or use a credit card and transaction
is completed.

2-Some loose dues structure, but typically a per annum
payment of some variety.

3-Some trinket for joining: badge/newsletter.

4-Easy to leave -no strings attached. (typically.)

5-Typically, no heavy obligations towards other
members.

Again I could go on, but will not at this time
for reasons stated.

Now, to address an assumption in your letter
Gnaeus; you seem (I emphasize seem as this
is only my interpretation of your words)
to believe that those that favor an actual
Nation hood, or a more formalized structure
are trying to do so for the sole purpose
of keeping people away or 'weeding out.'

To put another perspective on the recent
'snail mail' vs. 'Internet' debate, I have seen
it said that people would never join an organization
that used snail mail, or that they personally
disliked it. Well, as one of the advocates of
utilizing snail mail as a possible component of
the citizenship process let me say for the record
that I too dislike it. In fact, I *HATE* it.

It has nothing to do with like/dislike. It has
to do with National citizenship, just like my
macronation is going to make me do something
uncomfortable when involving a matter of
identity. -For example, I'd LOVE to be able
to renew say my driver's license 'online,' or
be able to fax a photo to someone and say 'oh
yes, it's really me.' Does a little hassle
prevent the millions of immigrants from trying
to join my macronational country? No. They
do it willingly, because it's what they want.
Just as my forbearers did. -They risked life
and limb, fought in wars and gladly went through
all sort of inconvenience, far greater than
anything anyone would ever be asked for
here.

Now, *yes* -I know NR is not quite the same thing
and we're not offering a whole bunch of physical
benefits yet as others have pointed out. But, we
are going to get there one day, assuming we
go the direction of 'nation.'

If we go the way of club/hobby/organization,
or a hybrid approach, then certainly let's make
it as easy as possible, fill our roles with everyone
we can and become a chat board with some maybe
small dues attached. -This is perfectly fine
as well, but of course; I'm going to take it a
lot less seriously because clubs are clubs
and nations are nations.

As a nation, we can be 'Internet-enabled,' versus
'Internet-centric.' Definitely a key point of view
in the business world and I don't for a moment
suggest that we not have our strong Internet presence
and the accompanying advantages that technology
brings with it.

Let me further state as I've done before -my way
is not necessarily any more correct than anyone
else's. But perhaps in one of our many overly
generic Nova Roma polls, we could simply ask:

Is Nova Roma a:

Nation
Club
Undecided.

On the subject of snail mail, verifications
and weeding out, I'll post further on this
separately, as there
are some proposals that are not necessarily
self-excluding that could be decided upon.
Let me just say for now, that we are not
all looking to weed people out, just because
we have a different view than yours.

For instance,
in our province we have a lot of either non-active
cives or non-existent cives. Will these be
weeded out? In terms of having the benefits of
sharing provincial goals, gatherings, land
acquisitions and so forty -yes, they will
miss out on this. But, it is a free micronation
and they can choose to participate or not,
to disappear or not, be citizens or not.
That is between them and the Censores, but
to assume that others should go to extraordinary
lengths to dig them out of the woodwork
is not necessarily the right approach
either. If they choose to be citizens
though (although why they would want to if
they don't wish to participate,) then I
will still ask them to support the infra-
structure by paying dues/fees/taxes just
like everyone else. Because I belong
to a macronation, I understand that
it's not enough for me to say 'I don't
want to pay taxes because I don't want
to participate,' or 'I don't want to
pay taxes because I disagree with what
the government is doing with xyz.'

Also it's not enough to assume that asking
someone to take a commitment seriously
is being unfair, or a motive to turn people
away. A quick comment on 'turning people
away' -I humbly ask that you check the archives for
text of previous discussions on this before
making assumptions that we are looking
to drive anyone away. You'll find some
surprisingly ardent supporters of recruiting
drives.

The point still remains; increasing our raw numbers
for their own sake can be just as burdensome
and negative as unduly restricting our numbers. There
has to be a happy medium. I respectfully submit
that we have not found that 'happy medium'
yet.

I've gone on long enough. Thank you for
listening. As stated above, I'll be posting
separately in the next couple of days regarding
the matter of citizenship verification and
processing.

Bene valete,
Oppius

-----Original Message-----
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur [mailto:salixastur@--------]
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 9:31 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Inclusion vs. Exclusion

Gnaeus Salix Astur Senato Populoque Romano S.P.D.

Avete Romani Quirites.

I have been reading all your posts of late and, being a brand new
citizen, there is an aspect of these discussions that has shocked me.
I want to share my thoughts and impressions with all of you, if you
don't mind. It is not my intention to offend anyone, and thus I will
speak about ideas and attitudes, and not about specific individuals.

I know I will probably not convince anyone to change his/her ideas.
That is not my intention. I just want to bring this topic to discussion
so that all of us in Nova Roma can dedicate a moment of thought to
reflect on what do we want Nova Roma to be.

<snipped>

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] ATTN: Winners of the Cerealia / Romae Conditio Festival contest
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:11:00 -0700

Salvete Sodales;

Congratulations Salonina, Lucilla Cornelia,
Draco, Helena et Procopious on your victories!
We were blessed with some excellent art and
in my mind, the festival was a smashing success!

Gratias multas also to Draco et Marce Armini
for organizing this festival and brining
the boundless talents of the Musarum to the
citizens of Nova Roma.

Bona Fortuna!

Bene valete,
Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: S. Apollonius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 10:24 AM
To: Nova Roma; Sodalitas Musarum
Subject: [novaroma] ATTN: Winners of the Cerealia / Romae Conditio Festival
contest

Salvete Quirites Novae Romae,

As the Coryphaeus of the Sodalitas Musarum, I hereby announce the results of the
recent contest held in Nova Roma, in honour of the goddess Ceres and Roma
herself. The winners are as following:

<snipped>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Gods of the Underworld
From:	hadescallias@--------
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 21:05:26 -0000

Does anyone at Nova Roma follow the Gods of the Underworld like i do
and are there any members from nova roma who like me live in belgium.
thank you.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Inclusion vs. Exclusion
From:	Matt Haase <haase@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:57:51 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Gnae Salix,

I believe you are substantially misinterpreting the intentions driving
several recent proposals.

To summarize your previous article, you see the tax proposal, and the
suggestions for requiring some level of proof of identity for new citizens
to be motivated by a desire to exclude. But there are sound reasons for
both of these arguments that have nothing to do with exclusion.

The reasoning for the tax proposal is quite simple... if we are to ever be
anything more than a handful of mailing lists, we need money. Nova Roma
has, from its start, had various real-world goals, all of which require
money. In the short term, it will enable us to publish a higher-quality
newsletter, have a more visible presence at Roman events, and reimburse
those few people who are currently paying all of the operational expenses
of an 800-person organization by themselves. It is not fair that those who
work the hardest to keep this organization viable -- the Censors and
Consuls -- should have to pay the bulk of the expenses themselves. Even
such things as office supplies are needed, and have thus far mainly been
donated by the same few people.

The amount that is usually suggested -- $12 for citizens of wealthy
countries, perhaps half that for citizens of other countries -- is the
price of a lunch or two, per year. Is Nova Roma citizenship worth so very
little to some people that they won't even give up this pittance? We're
not asking for a lot. We're just asking that everyone pay their fair share.
But right now almost all of Nova Roma's income comes from the same few people
who have been donating large amounts. You enjoy the benefits of
citizenship as much as any of us; why then the reluctance to contribute?

As someone who works many hours to maintain and improve one property of
Nova Roma, I am dismayed that some citizens place so little value on these
efforts that they protest any efforts to raise funds. The time that the
Censors and Consuls --and others -- have donated by working long unpaid
hours is worth several thousand dollars per person; the services donated
by myself and M. Cassius (web hosting and printing) have a substantial
market value; and after all this, it pains me to read protests against such
a small and reasonable payment of $12 as being "exclusionary".

What other organization of any importance can you be a member of for
so very little?

The other issue that has been discussed here lately has been that of
verifying the identities of citizens. I know for a fact that fraudulent
citizenship applications have been made.

There was one incident where a gens that had been created only days ago
suddenly received about eight applications, all with different contact
addresses and numbers. Censor Marius noted this as strange, and asked me
to investigate... we discovered that all of these applications had been
made from the same computer, even though the street addresses were in
different cities; when he called the phone numbers on the application to
verify, several of the phone numbers provided were either nonexistent or
belonged to people entirely unrelated to those names that appeared on the
false applications.

We found this one only because the perpetrator was foolish enough to place
all of his false applications into the same gens; if Marius had not noticed
that pattern, he might have been successful. How many others of our 850+
citizens exist solely for the purpose of fraud? How many children pretend
to be adults so they can vote? I don't know.

If we had a requirement that some sort of verification be sent to the
office of the Censores, then this fraud would be substantially reduced or
even eliminated entirely. Another solution might be for the Censors to
gain a large number of scribes whose job is to make phone calls to
propsective citizens and verify that their phone numbers are correct -- but
this brings us back to the issue of "taxes"; if we have no budget for long
distance phone calls then there will be few volunteers for this expensive
job.

Charging a membership fee for new citizens (and old citizens too, to be
fair) will not only benefit the work of Nova Roma by growing our treasury,
but it will reduce fraudulent applications.

> I have read several times on this list words that seem to express a
> desire of exclusion. What I mean is that, sometimes, some citizens seem
> to think that all those citizens that do not participate in the
> building of Nova Roma should be excluded from it.

Not at all. We want to encourage everyone to participate more. Part of
participation is paying your fair share of money to advance the cause of
Nova Roma.

> They write about
> making citizenship application more difficult, in order to weed out
> those applicants not "really" interested in Nova Roma.

Why not? How do those invisible applicants benefit us? They don't
subscribe to mailing lists, they don't vote -- someone who applies on a
whim and then disappears has not strengthened Nova Roma in any way, and
they have wasted the Censores' time processing the frivolous applications.

The figure of 850 citizens that appears on the main page is not something
to be proud of. The figure of 192 votes cast in the last general election,
however, is. That is a much more important indicator of our strength than
simply counting the number of times the citizenship application form has
been submitted.

> They express their desire of a taxation system that makes taxpaying a
> condition for citizenship. They seem to think that Nova Roma should
> be only "for the worthy", for "those who show interest".

What is so wrong with requiring that someone "show interest" in a group in
order to be counted as a member of it?

> After a couple of days, I decided to apply for citizenship. I took this
> decision because citizenship application was not too cumbersome (I
> would have NEVER sent a snail mail application,

Many of us did. I printed and signed the forms within hours of first
learning of Nova Roma, and had mailed it the same day. It's not so hard.

> I though that citizenship promised a chance to help building a new way to
> understand my own love for Rome.

But don't you love Rome enough to pay $12, or to print and mail a form?

> But I didn't really start to
> understand what Nova Roma was really about until AFTER apllying for
> citizenship. I think you will agree that, up to now, my interest seems
> to have increased rather than decreased. But that's due to a general
> sense of inclusion and acceptance, due to the warm welcome I received
> from Novoromans.

On the mailing list, everyone is welcome, citizen or not. Nobody has
suggested tossing people off the list for refusing to pay their fair share
of our expenses.

> I think our efforts should go in the direction of interesting both
> citizens and prospective citizens, and not in "weeding out" the
> citizens with a low level of participation and centering ourselves
> around "the worthy", "the faithful", or whatever you want to call them.

"Weeding out" is not the goal. The goal of the tax proposal is to gain
enough money to realize all of our other goals, to make this nation
something more than a handful of mailing lists and a web site, and to
spread the expenses fairly among everyone rather than having the same few
people paying all the bills themselves.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A Bill Of Rights (Long)
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:22:17 -0400

Salve C. Minuci: I agree with your thoughts on this most important matter.
Here is an interesting little booklet that you may find interesting reading.
Other citizens may find it interesting as well.
http://www.constitution.org/law/bastiat.htm
Basically what he says is that when people find theft easier than work, in
order not to get thrown in jail they will organize themselves and pressure
government to commit the theft for them. Of course if government can not get
what it needs in taxes from the citizens, it will borrow the rest, running a
deficit that must be payed back (along with interest) at some point.
Spending wealth that belongs to our children and grandchildren.
People for the most part want everything, and they want it now. Let the
future generations pay for it. (As someone at my place of employment once
told me, "Who cares what it costs, we will be dead and won't be aware of the
cost to future generations.) It is a world of greed. And our governments
become thieves and borrowers in order to satisfy our greed. Our wants. I had
a guy living up above me in an apartment that never seemed to work, always
had money for his beer, marijuana, food, and cigarettes. He had a color tv,
stereo. He partied at the pub down the street every evening, and partied at
home every Friday and Saturday night with his pals. One Saturday morning, I
left the back door heading for my car, on my way to work, and he came down
the stairs with his buddies, having partied all night. He sees me and starts
laughing. I asked him what is so funny, and he says, "I just had this crazy
thought, ... I am having a good time all of the time, have what I want, and
it's you going off to slug it out every day at work who pays for it all".
I guess that what I am saying is that that guy, and everyone like him
are thieves.. The only difference between him and the thief in prison, is
that his kind have gotten the government to commit the theft for them. And
it's the working people both blue collar and white collar, and their
children and grandchildren who are the vicitms. We must do what we can to
protect ourselves from this in Nova Roma.
I would strongly suggest that every citizen take the Roman Virtues to
heart and live by them. Adopt them as your moral code if you truly believe
in Nova Roma, and the Roman way of life. I re-read them at least once a
week. We can never perfectly follow them of course because we are only
human, with human flaws. But Rome originally grew strong because the early
Romans were a simple people with strong beliefs, and among these strong
beliefs, where belief in the Gods, and a strong belief in high moral
standards. Aiming for high moral standards, I believe to be a most worthy
goal. It gives community strength from the inside.
I believe that one of the main reasons that Rome went down a gradual
road to collapse, was that the Romans lost their high moral standards over
time. When a body becomes sick and weak morally inside, it becomes much more
vulnerable to attack from both within itself from internal enemies, and from
external enemies. Collapse becomes only a matter of time.
Enough said, my apologies for being off topic, and being too long
winded. Vale, ... A. Cato, ... Rogator
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 11:21 AM
Subject: [novaroma] A Bill Of Rights

Salvete omnes,

There has been a lot of discussion lately regarding the nature of
citizens rights, and the possibility of including a Bill of Rights in
the Nova Roman constitution. While I believe this is an excellent
idea, I think what Nova Roma really needs is a Bill of Rights and
Responsibilities. I fear that it has become all too common today in
our "me" generation to focus only upon the rights due to the
individual, and ignore the civil and moral responsibilities that
accompany those rights. A democracy, by definition, requires the
participation of an educated, responsible citizenry to succeed. To
quote Thomas Jefferson:

"If once [the people] become inattentive to the public affairs,
you and I, and Congress and Assemblies, Judges and Governors,
shall all become wolves. It seems to be the law of our general
nature, in spite of individual exceptions."

While in most cases, our responsibilities as individual citizens are
already spelled out in various laws, I think it would be a good idea
to consolidate them in one place, along side the rights they coincide
with. For example:

Right -The right to freedom of speech & expression.

Responsibility -The responsibility to speak truthfully, avoiding
libel or slander.

Right -The right to vote.

Responsibility -To participate in our government and
elections, and stay informed on relevant issues.

Obviously, these are only the most bare-boned examples but I
feel they serve to illustrate my intent. I would like to point out
that I am not suggesting that civic responsibilities, such as voting,
should be required by law - but simply spelled out as an ideal that
all citizens should aspire too. Given the current state of citizen
participation in Nova Roma, I would say that we are failing as a
Democracy. In a club or similar organization, that wouldn't be a
serious issue, be we are not simply a "club" - we are a micro-nation
aspiring to eventual sovereignty and macro-national status. We need
an active citizen body, one that is aware of all of it's
responsibilities and willing to live up to them if our grand
experiment in to succeed.

I welcome other citizen's comments and opinions regarding this
possibility, and the idea of civic responsibility in general. Gratias
multas for my time on the soap-box!

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Legatus of Massachusetts

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Inclusion vs. Exclusion
From:	Gaia Natalina Casca <gaianatalinacasca@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:38:01 -0700 (PDT)

I wanted to address a few things in this post:

> I believe you are substantially misinterpreting the
> intentions driving several recent proposals.

Perhaps that is the case, but if you are a newcomer
and you see this stuff being spoken of at such length,
it does give off a bit of an elitist attitude that
leans toward excluding those who "aren't worthy" based
on a rather elusive understanding of what about them
is unworthy. This doesn't mean that is what is going
on...but it can look that way from this point of view.

> To summarize your previous article, you see the tax
proposal, and the suggestions for requiring some level
of proof of identity for new citizens to be motivated
by a desire to exclude. But there are sound reasons
for both of these arguments that have nothing to do
with exclusion.

I agree that there are sound reasons for both, but I
also agree that some of the posts on the subjects here
take everything a little far to the extreme, which is
good for the sake of discussion, but which also lends
the air of seeking exclusion of those deemed
"unworthy"...

> The reasoning for the tax proposal is quite
simple... if we are to ever be anything more than a
handful of mailing lists, we need money.

This is true, I don't think anyone disagrees. I think
the concern arises in regards to the way we get that
money.

>It is not fair that those who work the hardest to
keep this organization viable -- the Censors and
Consuls -- should have to pay the bulk of the expenses
themselves. Even such things as office supplies are
needed, and have thus far mainly been donated by the
same few people.

Again, I agree. Having been in this position in other
organizations, it was highly pleasurable when they
were at last able to begin standing on their own
financial legs. In the meantime, if help is required
financially, ask...I'm certain there are those of us
who would be willing to help fund certain expenses.

> The amount that is usually suggested -- $12 for
citizens of wealthy countries, perhaps half that for
citizens of other countries -- is the price of a lunch
or two, per year.

I would humbly remind that even in wealthy countries
we have large populations of people with very little
money to spare. Had this condition existed at the
time I signed up for membership, I would not have done
so for the simple reason that I didn't have enough
money to pay my bills, let alone to send to a group
like this one.

>Is Nova Roma citizenship worth so very little to
some people that they won't even give up this
pittance? We're not asking for a lot. We're just
asking that everyone pay their fair share.

But again, what is fair? What is a lot? There are
those of us who have money, and this is nothing.
There are others who have time, and no money. Still
others have loyalty and dedication but little time or
money. Some people live daily lives according to the
principles we are striving for and dedicated to the
ideas we give passionate lip service to, yet they
could not afford a stamp to mail in the application
let alone $12 for membership dues or whatever we care
to call them. Are we to exclude these people?

> But right now almost all of Nova Roma's income comes
from the same few people who have been donating large
amounts. You enjoy the benefits of citizenship as
much as any of us; why then the reluctance to
contribute?

Okay, I'm going out on a limb here, but please feel
free to inform me, because I really say this out of
ignorance. Aside from the cost of the server to host
the web page, what expenses do we have? Okay, we got
the flags made and the coins...but I guess I thought
that someone contributed the upfront costs under the
assumption that they would be paid back from the
sales. Yes, I understand that going forward from here
we will have expenses, that as a growing organization
that will hopefully extend more fully into the real
world our expenses will grow. And again, I repeat, if
there are specific projects that need funding, speak
up, let us know. I can't be the only one who would be
willing to cough up some cash for a good reason or
solid need.

> As someone who works many hours to maintain and
improve one property of Nova Roma, I am dismayed that
some citizens place so little value on these efforts
that they protest any efforts to raise funds.

I don't think that anyone is protesting ANY effort to
raise funds, I think some of us here the word "tax"
and in our minds we see all of the complex and not
necessarily efficient taxations of our macronations
and realize that if we are going to create something
new and lasting, we want a say in how it will work.
We also don't want requirements levied that will
exclude people who have the interest and desire, but
not the funds.

> What other organization of any importance can you be
> a member of for
> so very little?

*Insert cheeky grin* You might be surprised!

> The other issue that has been discussed here lately
has been that of verifying the identities of citizens.
I know for a fact that fraudulent
citizenship applications have been made.

I was not aware that there were any incidents, nor can
I imagine a good reason to make fraudulent
applications...someone must have been bored. I'm all
for putting protections in place, but not at the
thought of mucking up the works with so much red tape
that it makes it more of a pain to apply than to just
not bother.
> Charging a membership fee for new citizens (and old
citizens too, to be fair) will not only benefit the
work of Nova Roma by growing our treasury, but it will
reduce fraudulent applications.

I suppose this is true, but at what cost? As I said
before, my fear is only that we might inadvertantly
exclude someone whose faith and dedication to Nova
Roma might have proven far greater than any
application fee we might have imposed that was enough
to keep them from applying.

> Not at all. We want to encourage everyone to
participate more. Part of participation is paying
your fair share of money to advance the cause of
Nova Roma.

I hope by this point you understand where I am coming
from on this subject.

Forgive, please, if I seem to be argumentative, I do
not mean to be...but I think that it is certainly
important to consider all of the realistic effects of
a proposed action as part of the discussion leading up
to the actual decision.

=====
Gaia Natalina Casca
Fremont, California

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	FWD: Re: [novaroma] Inclusion vs. Exclusion
From:	robert woolwine <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:16:22 -0400 (EDT)

Opps this was sent privately, it should have gone to the NR main list.

Sulla
------Original Message------
From: robert woolwine <alexious@-------->
To: Gaia Natalina Casca <gaianatalinacasca@-------->
Sent: April 20, 2001 11:13:54 PM GMT
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Inclusion vs. Exclusion

------Original Message------
From: Gaia Natalina Casca <gaianatalinacasca@-------->
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: April 20, 2001 10:38:01 PM GMT
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Inclusion vs. Exclusion

I wanted to address a few things in this post:

> I believe you are substantially misinterpreting the
> intentions driving several recent proposals.

Perhaps that is the case, but if you are a newcomer
and you see this stuff being spoken of at such length,
it does give off a bit of an elitist attitude that
leans toward excluding those who "aren't worthy" based
on a rather elusive understanding of what about them
is unworthy. This doesn't mean that is what is going
on...but it can look that way from this point of view.

Sulla: Unfortuantely that is a side effect for being a newcomer. However, as Censor, I try to be approachable to every member of Nova Roma, whether you are a citizen or pending for citizenship. The fact is, Gaia Natalina, that there are people who have been in NR for over 3 years and some who have been in NR for little more than a week. Those of us who have been here for 3 years have developed relationships/friendships. And, I am sure if you are here 3 years down the road the same process will happen to you...and then those newcomers who come in will also feel like this is some type of exclusive group.

<Snip>

> The reasoning for the tax proposal is quite
simple... if we are to ever be anything more than a
handful of mailing lists, we need money.

This is true, I don't think anyone disagrees. I think
the concern arises in regards to the way we get that
money.

Sulla: Well, certainly we cannot continue the way we are going now. With the magistrates footing the bill. I hope you agree to that.

>It is not fair that those who work the hardest to
keep this organization viable -- the Censors and
Consuls -- should have to pay the bulk of the expenses
themselves. Even such things as office supplies are
needed, and have thus far mainly been donated by the
same few people.

Again, I agree. Having been in this position in other
organizations, it was highly pleasurable when they
were at last able to begin standing on their own
financial legs. In the meantime, if help is required
financially, ask...I'm certain there are those of us
who would be willing to help fund certain expenses.

Sulla: We have. You might want to go to the Archieves and explore the 20,000 posts that are there. Especially those posts involving the tax debate. This has been an ongoing debate for almost two years.

> The amount that is usually suggested -- $12 for
citizens of wealthy countries, perhaps half that for
citizens of other countries -- is the price of a lunch
or two, per year.

I would humbly remind that even in wealthy countries
we have large populations of people with very little
money to spare. Had this condition existed at the
time I signed up for membership, I would not have done
so for the simple reason that I didn't have enough
money to pay my bills, let alone to send to a group
like this one.

Sulla: That is true, and in some of the plans accounted for this situation by having the governor have some ability to consult with the Senate to make certain that burdern is not so excessive to the province. However, being a Californian, as I am....$12.00 is the cost of one Pizza. That is not excessive for a year's dues.

>Is Nova Roma citizenship worth so very little to
some people that they won't even give up this
pittance? We're not asking for a lot. We're just
asking that everyone pay their fair share.

But again, what is fair? What is a lot? There are
those of us who have money, and this is nothing.
There are others who have time, and no money. Still
others have loyalty and dedication but little time or
money. Some people live daily lives according to the
principles we are striving for and dedicated to the
ideas we give passionate lip service to, yet they
could not afford a stamp to mail in the application
let alone $12 for membership dues or whatever we care
to call them. Are we to exclude these people?

Sulla: Well the $500.00 I have donated to NR as Censor is definately excessive don't you agree? And that is just me. This is just for phone calls, office supplies (paper and ink for printer).

> But right now almost all of Nova Roma's income comes
from the same few people who have been donating large
amounts. You enjoy the benefits of citizenship as
much as any of us; why then the reluctance to
contribute?

Okay, I'm going out on a limb here, but please feel
free to inform me, because I really say this out of
ignorance. Aside from the cost of the server to host
the web page, what expenses do we have? Okay, we got
the flags made and the coins...but I guess I thought
that someone contributed the upfront costs under the
assumption that they would be paid back from the
sales. Yes, I understand that going forward from here
we will have expenses, that as a growing organization
that will hopefully extend more fully into the real
world our expenses will grow. And again, I repeat, if
there are specific projects that need funding, speak
up, let us know. I can't be the only one who would be
willing to cough up some cash for a good reason or
solid need.

Sulla: Well I answered that above. I try to make hard copies of everything I send out. And, I was validated in this during a recent computer crash. Having the paper copies of the Censor work I did helped us recover faster from that crash. However, as Censor, I am still having a phone bill of about 30.00 on average a month (I have not called overseas). But the highest my phone bill has been was over 80.00 per month (just for NR calls). Phone calls are my largest expense.

> As someone who works many hours to maintain and
improve one property of Nova Roma, I am dismayed that
some citizens place so little value on these efforts
that they protest any efforts to raise funds.

I don't think that anyone is protesting ANY effort to
raise funds, I think some of us here the word "tax"
and in our minds we see all of the complex and not
necessarily efficient taxations of our macronations
and realize that if we are going to create something
new and lasting, we want a say in how it will work.
We also don't want requirements levied that will
exclude people who have the interest and desire, but
not the funds.

Sulla: Well, then just what is the protest then? Do you think its fair that the magistrates bear the burden of operating Nova Roma?

<Snip>

> The other issue that has been discussed here lately
has been that of verifying the identities of citizens.
I know for a fact that fraudulent
citizenship applications have been made.

I was not aware that there were any incidents, nor can
I imagine a good reason to make fraudulent
applications...someone must have been bored. I'm all
for putting protections in place, but not at the
thought of mucking up the works with so much red tape
that it makes it more of a pain to apply than to just
not bother.

Sulla: Yes there have been a few incidents. And some of them have required extensive monitoring. What is mucking up? When I applied for Nova Roman citizenship I snail mailed my application. I was told that the gens I applied for was already in existence and I was able to get it resolved with minimal red tape. As a matter of fact the person who assisted me in becoming a citizen is our Noble Consul Flavius Vedius. I did not have to wait unduly long to get my citizenship application sorted out. And I was officially a citizen the day Nova Roma was officially launched.

> Charging a membership fee for new citizens (and old
citizens too, to be fair) will not only benefit the
work of Nova Roma by growing our treasury, but it will
reduce fraudulent applications.

I suppose this is true, but at what cost? As I said
before, my fear is only that we might inadvertantly
exclude someone whose faith and dedication to Nova
Roma might have proven far greater than any
application fee we might have imposed that was enough
to keep them from applying.

Sulla: If people are so uncommitted that the burden of Nova Roma's operations are to be funded by the magistrates Nova Roma will never achieve her goals. Regardless what those goals are. Nova Roma cannot continue to function without a stable source of revenue. If a perspective applicant has faith and dedication then it seems to me that that individual would be able to go the extra mile to help an organization that they believe in? Regardless if it means an additional check to prevent fraud or a small amount of money to help promote fiscal health.

> Not at all. We want to encourage everyone to
participate more. Part of participation is paying
your fair share of money to advance the cause of
Nova Roma.

I hope by this point you understand where I am coming
from on this subject.

Sulla: Yes I do, and I hope you understand where I am coming from.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix