Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Taxes
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:13:02 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Quirites,

I find it interesting that so many think the purpose
of membership fees (If we are to be the Roman Club) or
Taxes (If we are to be a Nation) are just some trick
to drive off citizens.

I'll admit that it may cause some to leave Nova Roma,
but if we don't have the funds to make Nova Roma more
than a few mailing lists we will continue to see new
citizens enroll post to the lists for a time, and then
become inactive because there is nothing to hold thier
intrest. We have allready "lost" a great many citizens
to this lapse into inactivity, and we don't have funds
we will continue to lose more people than the number
who will leave over 12.00 a year.

Many of you think the few services that Nova Roma has
are free, but you are mistaken, you may not be paying
for them, but I assure you somebody is. Take our mail
lists for example. We are using Yahoogroups. They
aren't charging us any money (now). Yahoo is paying
for this service to promote thier site, but they could
decide that the cost of this service isn't worth the
ammount of promotion they recive and end it with
little or no notice. Don't make the mistake of
thinking those banner ads are making Yahoo a lot of
money either. At best they defray a small part of the
cost. Nobody is making money off internet ads (except
spammers). We are also paying a price, the uncertainty
of not being able to rely on allways having this
service, and the problems that not having full control
of our mail lists entail.

Then there is our website. You may not be paying for
it, but that dosen't mean it's free. Marcus Octavius
is paying these costs out of his pocket. I don't know
the terms he has with his provider, but I do know what
my site costs. I pay a fixed monthly fee for up to a
certain ammount of bandwidth (Megabytes downloaded)
and extra if I excede my bandwidth allotment. My
monthly fee for a small site is $30.00, so if Marcus
Octavius has a similar arrangement the website is
costing him at least $360.00 a year and thats only if
he dosen't excede his bandwidth limits. Think about
that the next time you complain about $12.00 a year.
That figure Dosen't include the time he is donating,
time that he could be making a considerable ammount of
money freelancing for a site that pays for a
webmaster. Marcus Octavius, Thank you for your
generosity!

Some of you may be aware that I'm working on a Web
Browser for Nova Roma, and may have even tried the
preview I posted. Can any of you guess why I placed
that preview on Yahoo groups instead of asking for
space on Nova Roma's server? Because downloading that
file costs bandwidth, and bandwidth costs money. Yahoo
was willing to absorb that cost so I didn't add to the
cost of running the Nova Roma website. That was a
fairly small file that required a download of Mozilla
(cost absorbed by AOL), but the final release will
have too many features for me to be able to piggyback
a patch on top of Mozilla. It will be about a 8
Megabyte file, too big for including in Yahoo groups
files. 8Meg downloads eat bandwidth so the lack of
funds could hamper this project. I fully intend to
complete Basilica, but how easy it will be for you to
get a copy is up in the air.

Valete,
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/


Subject:	[novaroma] RE: nation vs club perspective (too long)
From:	"Marek Grajek" <MarekJG@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 00:09:37 +0200

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Oppius Flaccus Severus [mailto:oppiusflaccus@--------]
> Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 11:02 PM
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] Inclusion vs. Exclusion -A different perspective<Long>
>
> ----------------- snip -----------------------------
> In actuality, many of the tangential discussions that
> have been going on of late still come down to the
> same thing -'what do we think of when we think of NR.'
> To some of us, it's a quasi-organization. To some of us,
> it's just a club. To some of us it is a curiosity or
> hobby toy at best. To others it is a nation -and all
> points in between.
>
> So, in going forward -I propose that the 'macroquestion'
> if you will, continues to be 'Nation vs. club/group/organization.'
> Since myself and others have spoken at length regarding
> this point before, I will not go into 'dissertation'
> mode. Suffice it to say for the point of discussion,
> those that view NR as a club/group/org are obviously
> going to see NR in a *drastically* different way
> than those that see it as a *Nation.* It is not up to
> me to say which perspective is right or wrong, but
> answering the question makes a huge difference in
> where we go from here.
>
> Personally (usual disclaimers apply,) I'm of the
> 'Nation' school of thought. Am I saying that my
> way is the 'right' way? No. But it is how I feel and
> as such, it affects everything I do and say in
> regards to Nova Roman discussions.
> -------------------------- snip --------------------------
> Bene valete,
> Oppius

Salve,

A Nation, yes, but a very particular kind of a nation. In the contemporary
world you are usually born as a member of this or that nation. Some of us
enjoy occasionally a rare freedom of choice of the nation we belong to,
mostly due to the taxation level differences. In general - choosing the
nation you feel at home is an exception rather than a rule in the
contemporary world. When you consider that most of us (if not all,
considering NR's lack of suppression apparatus) elected to join the
community as a result of their free and unconstrainted decision - that gives
your Nation perspective a new sense.

We are the members of a Nation born out of Spirit rather, than the
Structure. It is much easier to build up the structure, than to demonstrate
the very existence of the common spirit. Any new community I learned in my
life had a natural tendency of:

- building up some kind of of the formal structure,
- building up its very own jargon,
- defining it limits and building a (lower or higher) wall separating it
from the outside world.

This is not appropriate for this kind of a Nation we try to build. This is
not appropriate for a number of reasons of both practical and historical
nature. Do you remember times when there was no Rome? When hordes of
barbarians were building their order on the graves of the ancient emperors?
There was however something that was alive through all the Dark Ages: the
very idea of Rome, the very idea of multinational, multicultural Empire -
the Spirit we bear in our hearts. This community was born out of the Spirit
and replacing the Spirit with the Structure or even making the Structure
dominating over the Spirit would mean rejecting our own roots.

The structure of the formal rights and obligations you mention is a
relatively new invention, which might be attributed to the XIX century
nation states. The past used to be far more tolerant. In the old Rome many
nations, many religions, many cultures and traditions used to live together.
Double loyalty - one to the Rome and the emperor, one to the local tradition
of your town/tribe/country - was somethig usual, something obvious. Look,
how that structure of the old Roman society resembles us, coming each from
his own tradition, bearing the burden of his own customs and the loyalty to
his natural environment.

We have to learn to live like our ancient Roman predecessors did, we have to
learn to live within the double loyalty scheme. Moreover, to draw the most
and the best from our common efforts, we have to learn to contribute, or
even to require from everyone contributing what her/his native
tradition/nation/tribe has to offer, and relying on the Spirit as an
integrating factor.

I was born and have spent most of my life in one of the communist states,
where the Structure was everything. Where there was no place for the Spirit,
even less space for the double loyalty, for the diversity. I admit that this
experience might have distorted my perspective of the mutual balance between
the Structure and the Spirit. The stronger I will argue however that we are
bound to construct the community (or a Nation, as you like) open for people
coming from variuos parts of the contemporary world, bearing the burden of
diversified experiences, representing different traditions. I cannot imagine
these goals to be attainable in a society where the Structure prevails over
the Spirit.

I was born in a society whose shape resembled once the structure of the old
Roman empire - many nations/religions/traditions/cultures living peacefully
together, under the control of the relatively loose structure. Yes, it is
true that this loose structure was no match for the neighbouring absolute
powers/tyrannies, which led to the collapse of so organized state. But the
spirit of the community planted in this society was strong enough to survive
over 150 years of supression and to rebuild the state, once the conditions
permitted that. Is it not similar to the story of the Spirit of Rome, giving
now birth to the Nation in our hearts?

I fear that giving the Structure priority over the Spirit we would not only
reject the very tradition of the tolerant, multinational and multicultural
Roman emipre, but also reject the valuable contribution of our brothers, who
are not ready or who cannot accept the single loyalty system and the
Structure it implies.

Let's get used to it, after all the progress always used to be the fruit of
efforts of the few, but the happy few.

Vale,

Cneus Marius Aquilius

-----------------R--E--K--L--A--M--A-----------------
Lepsze wiadomosci z kraju i z zagranicy.
Nie wierzysz? Sprawdz: http://wiadomosci.interia.pl/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:31:09 -0500 (CDT)

Salve L. Sicini,

> Then there is our website. You may not be paying for
> it, but that dosen't mean it's free. Marcus Octavius
> is paying these costs out of his pocket. I don't know
> the terms he has with his provider, but I do know what
> my site costs.

$350 a month. That's what it costs to have a server physically located
in the office of an ISP - even a sm all one. And having my own server
allows much greater flexibility than having a "virtual host" at an ISP.

Of course, Nova Roma isn't the only site on my server -- but it is by
far the busiest.

So you can see why I despair when people protest being asked to pay
$12 a year. :)

Vale, Octavius.

---
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Taxes
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 00:48:17 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@c...> wrote:
> Salve L. Sicini,
>
> > Then there is our website. You may not be paying for
> > it, but that dosen't mean it's free. Marcus Octavius
> > is paying these costs out of his pocket. I don't know
> > the terms he has with his provider, but I do know what
> > my site costs.
>
> $350 a month. That's what it costs to have a server physically located
> in the office of an ISP - even a sm all one. And having my own server
> allows much greater flexibility than having a "virtual host" at an ISP.
>
> Of course, Nova Roma isn't the only site on my server -- but it is by
> far the busiest.
>
> So you can see why I despair when people protest being asked to pay
> $12 a year. :)
>
> Vale, Octavius.
>
>
> ---
> M. Octavius Germanicus
> Propraetor, Lacus Magni
> Curator Araneum et Senator

Salvete Quirites,

Read this carefully, and another recent post by our Censor about the
costs he incurs in providing his services.

We have attempted to make Nova Roma a more open society than Roma
Antiquita was, but if we insist on having our magistrates pay the
costs of thier offices then we are creating a two tiered nation. The
top rung will allways be held by the few citizens who are able and
willing to absorb these kinds of costs, while the rest of the citizens
are in effect excluded from holding these offices.

Would you vote for a lex that limited higher offices in our Republic
to persons who enjoyed a certain income level?

As long as we don't have taxes, that is the unwritten lex we now live
under.

Valete
L. Sicinius Drusus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Taxes
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 22:04:59 -0400

Salve: I would like to add my two sesterti worth to his discussion. I as
well believe that we require some form of income for Nova Roma in order to
facilitate growth in the real world. I myself discovered to a small extent
just what is involved in expense when I won election to the office of
Rogator. Please don't misunderstand me. I am not complaining of what it has
cost me. I am more than willing to bear the small expense that it has cost
to this point. It has been much smaller then the costs born by our higher
magistrates.
It was necessary for me to get a filing system set up for which I
purchased supplies. I learned something about Excel 2000 which I also
acquired. Having not done a job of this nature before, I took one day off of
my regular job for each of the first two elections I was involved in. This
was a respectable amount of income given up. I had to purchase printer
supplies, and spend much time organizing data and entering it into the Excel
program. My family did without a husband and father for a few weeks while I
worked weekends at my regular job to make up for my lost days I worked on
the elections. I would get home and study Excel books, and experiment with
the program, and then spend hours and hours working on the election.
As I stated above, I am not complaining. I explain this here simply to
let others know the amount of work that I have already done, and the
expense that I have carried, is nothing compared to what our Consuls,
Censores, and others have borne. We do this out of a love for Nova Roma and
a strong belief in what it represents and can become. I do not expect any
payment personally. What I have spent and given up is done with no thought
of compensation.
We all owe our Consuls, Censores, Curator Araneae, and many others who
have given so much in time, work, and out of pocket expense a great deal. I
haven't heard them come out and demand anything. This speaks volumnes about
their love of Nova Roma. Where would Nova Roma be without them?
I would ask all citizens to seriously consider donating at least twelve
bucks a year to Nova Roma. There is much that can be done in the real world
with that money. And our dreams of what Nova Roma could become in the real
world would come closer to reality. It is such a small amount to ask. Again
this is my humble opinion, and I only speak about this as a citizen.
----- Original Message -----
From: <lsicinius@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 8:48 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Taxes

> --- In novaroma@--------, Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@c...> wrote:
> > Salve L. Sicini,
> >
> > > Then there is our website. You may not be paying for
> > > it, but that dosen't mean it's free. Marcus Octavius
> > > is paying these costs out of his pocket. I don't know
> > > the terms he has with his provider, but I do know what
> > > my site costs.
> >
> > $350 a month. That's what it costs to have a server physically located
> > in the office of an ISP - even a sm all one. And having my own server
> > allows much greater flexibility than having a "virtual host" at an ISP.
> >
> > Of course, Nova Roma isn't the only site on my server -- but it is by
> > far the busiest.
> >
> > So you can see why I despair when people protest being asked to pay
> > $12 a year. :)
> >
> > Vale, Octavius.
> >
> >
> > ---
> > M. Octavius Germanicus
> > Propraetor, Lacus Magni
> > Curator Araneum et Senator
>
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> Read this carefully, and another recent post by our Censor about the
> costs he incurs in providing his services.
>
> We have attempted to make Nova Roma a more open society than Roma
> Antiquita was, but if we insist on having our magistrates pay the
> costs of thier offices then we are creating a two tiered nation. The
> top rung will allways be held by the few citizens who are able and
> willing to absorb these kinds of costs, while the rest of the citizens
> are in effect excluded from holding these offices.
>
> Would you vote for a lex that limited higher offices in our Republic
> to persons who enjoyed a certain income level?
>
> As long as we don't have taxes, that is the unwritten lex we now live
> under.
>
> Valete
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Taxes
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 22:10:52 -0400

Salve: I get that all typed out and then forget to sign my name. Well, ...
here it is.
Vale, ... A. Cato
----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Taxes

> Salve: I would like to add my two sesterti worth to his discussion. I
as
> well believe that we require some form of income for Nova Roma in order to
> facilitate growth in the real world. I myself discovered to a small extent
> just what is involved in expense when I won election to the office of
> Rogator. Please don't misunderstand me. I am not complaining of what it
has
> cost me. I am more than willing to bear the small expense that it has cost
> to this point. It has been much smaller then the costs born by our higher
> magistrates.
> It was necessary for me to get a filing system set up for which I
> purchased supplies. I learned something about Excel 2000 which I also
> acquired. Having not done a job of this nature before, I took one day off
of
> my regular job for each of the first two elections I was involved in. This
> was a respectable amount of income given up. I had to purchase printer
> supplies, and spend much time organizing data and entering it into the
Excel
> program. My family did without a husband and father for a few weeks while
I
> worked weekends at my regular job to make up for my lost days I worked on
> the elections. I would get home and study Excel books, and experiment with
> the program, and then spend hours and hours working on the election.
> As I stated above, I am not complaining. I explain this here simply
to
> let others know the amount of work that I have already done, and the
> expense that I have carried, is nothing compared to what our Consuls,
> Censores, and others have borne. We do this out of a love for Nova Roma
and
> a strong belief in what it represents and can become. I do not expect any
> payment personally. What I have spent and given up is done with no thought
> of compensation.
> We all owe our Consuls, Censores, Curator Araneae, and many others
who
> have given so much in time, work, and out of pocket expense a great deal.
I
> haven't heard them come out and demand anything. This speaks volumnes
about
> their love of Nova Roma. Where would Nova Roma be without them?
> I would ask all citizens to seriously consider donating at least
twelve
> bucks a year to Nova Roma. There is much that can be done in the real
world
> with that money. And our dreams of what Nova Roma could become in the real
> world would come closer to reality. It is such a small amount to ask.
Again
> this is my humble opinion, and I only speak about this as a citizen.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <lsicinius@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 8:48 PM
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: Taxes
>
>
> > --- In novaroma@--------, Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@c...> wrote:
> > > Salve L. Sicini,
> > >
> > > > Then there is our website. You may not be paying for
> > > > it, but that dosen't mean it's free. Marcus Octavius
> > > > is paying these costs out of his pocket. I don't know
> > > > the terms he has with his provider, but I do know what
> > > > my site costs.
> > >
> > > $350 a month. That's what it costs to have a server physically
located
> > > in the office of an ISP - even a sm all one. And having my own server
> > > allows much greater flexibility than having a "virtual host" at an
ISP.
> > >
> > > Of course, Nova Roma isn't the only site on my server -- but it is by
> > > far the busiest.
> > >
> > > So you can see why I despair when people protest being asked to pay
> > > $12 a year. :)
> > >
> > > Vale, Octavius.
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > M. Octavius Germanicus
> > > Propraetor, Lacus Magni
> > > Curator Araneum et Senator
> >
> > Salvete Quirites,
> >
> > Read this carefully, and another recent post by our Censor about the
> > costs he incurs in providing his services.
> >
> > We have attempted to make Nova Roma a more open society than Roma
> > Antiquita was, but if we insist on having our magistrates pay the
> > costs of thier offices then we are creating a two tiered nation. The
> > top rung will allways be held by the few citizens who are able and
> > willing to absorb these kinds of costs, while the rest of the citizens
> > are in effect excluded from holding these offices.
> >
> > Would you vote for a lex that limited higher offices in our Republic
> > to persons who enjoyed a certain income level?
> >
> > As long as we don't have taxes, that is the unwritten lex we now live
> > under.
> >
> > Valete
> > L. Sicinius Drusus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


Subject:	[novaroma] Re Taxes
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 02:21:04 -0000

Ave Cato!!!

Your message to the Forum regarding the necessity and value of taxes for
Nova Roma is well received by this propraetrix! You explain much behind the
reasoning for funding from our citizens.

Vale,
Pompeia Cornelia
Canada Orientalis
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Re Taxes
From:	mansker@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 02:47:09 -0000

Salve -

Just a few words on the tax issue.

I am a new member (a little over a month), and have enjoyed my
membership so far. I was asked to be a rogator for a collegium, and
I agreed. I have donated through paypal, and have talked with my
Pater regarding becoming more active.

I feel that if you want to see a society survive, you must become
active in that society. I know that not everyone can bear the cost
of taxes, but what if you held an office that would help to lessen
the cost of running NovaRoma?

As an example: I am an accredited expert in Excel. I run a company
that does marketing. I have vast experience in a number of things,
some of which might be valuable to NovaRoma, some of which might not
be, but I would be willing to use my talents and my efforts to help
further our cause.

I would also be able to pay taxes and do not see this as an issue,
but I would also be happy to be of service rather than pay taxes if I
didn't have the money. (I hereby state that I would be happy to be of
service anyway, if anyone needs me for anything).

I think that if people were given an option to either pay taxes or
due service that would benefit NovaRoma, it would allow those who
didn't have the money to still become a citizen, become active, and
help NovaRoma at the same time.

I would be interested in hearing what others think of this idea.

Bene,

Gaia Flacca Severa

--- In novaroma@--------, "Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> Ave Cato!!!
>
> Your message to the Forum regarding the necessity and value of
taxes for
> Nova Roma is well received by this propraetrix! You explain much
behind the
> reasoning for funding from our citizens.
>
> Vale,
> Pompeia Cornelia
> Canada Orientalis
>
______________________________________________________________________
___
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
http://www.hotmail.com.


Subject:	[novaroma] Taxes
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 02:57:58 -0000

Salvete Gaia et alii:

The question of certain people not being able to afford taxes has been
discussed. Two or three people have put forth the idea of either these
individuals rendering their services as a scribe, etc. in lieu of taxes, or
placing them in a century or tribe with less voting power than a taxpaying
citizen.

Although I cannot speak for every individual in a magistracy, it is not the
intent to disqualify hardworking, eager citizens for having lack of funds;
it is the matter of the cold, hard truth where we will need funding to keep
going, and to do any kind of growth as a nation.

As Lucius Cornelius Sulla put it, and Tullius Cato et al. augmenting, the
magistrates cannot keep shelling out the money from their own pockets to
keep Nova Roma operational.

This republic belongs to all of us, and we must all take responsibility for
its upkeep and future endeavors.

I hope I have clarified some things.

Bene valete,
Pompeia Cornelia
Propraetrix pro temp
Canada Orientalis
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


Subject:	Re: FWD: Re: [novaroma] Inclusion vs. Exclusion
From:	Gaia Natalina Casca <gaianatalinacasca@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 20:08:52 -0700 (PDT)

> Sulla: Unfortuantely that is a side effect for
> being a newcomer. However, as Censor, I try to be
> approachable to every member of Nova Roma, whether
> you are a citizen or pending for citizenship. The
> fact is, Gaia Natalina, that there are people who
> have been in NR for over 3 years and some who have
> been in NR for little more than a week.

GN:I'm sure this is true, and I realize that. I was
only trying to offer a perspective that might not have
occured to those who have been around for a while...I
know from experience that we tend to forget these
things sometimes.

> Those of us who have been here for 3 years have
developed relationships/friendships. And, I am sure
if you are here 3 years down the road the same process
will happen to you...and then those newcomers who come
in will also feel like this is some type of exclusive
group.

GN: I'm sure that this is also true. But I hope one
of them will refresh my memory of what it looks like
to a newcomer! Sincerely, I wouldn't want to make any
one feel that way, as I am sure that you don't.
>
> Sulla: Well, certainly we cannot continue the way
> we are going now. With the magistrates footing the
> bill. I hope you agree to that.

GN:I certainly do agree to that. As I have said in
another post, I was surprised to find that an
organization of this size didn't have some sort of
membership fee involved. I was thrilled at the time,
seeing my financial position. I would have been
willing to give of my time and expertise, such as they
are, but I couldn't have afforded anything
financially.

> Sulla: We have. You might want to go to the
> Archieves and explore the 20,000 posts that are
> there. Especially those posts involving the tax
> debate. This has been an ongoing debate for almost
> two years.

GN:I was really speaking of special projects, one time
funds, etc...while we are waiting to solve the taxes
issue...I mean, if one member of the group came in
with a $300 phone bill and asked for help paying for
it, I would certainly not be adverse to sending what I
could at the time.

> Sulla: That is true, and in some of the plans
> accounted for this situation by having the governor
> have some ability to consult with the Senate to make
> certain that burdern is not so excessive to the
> province. However, being a Californian, as I
> am....$12.00 is the cost of one Pizza. That is not
> excessive for a year's dues.

GN:Ah, but I have not always been a Californian...nor
is the position of every Californian such that they
could afford to pay the dues. I'm afraid this is a
particular peeve of mine and I'm not going to let it
get forgotten easily. There are some people who have
time, skills, ideas, etc that would greatly benefit
Nova Roma who will not be able to afford taxes. Now,
there is always the possibility of setting up funds
whereby those who are willing can contribute to the
funding of the taxes for those who can not pay them...

> Sulla: Well the $500.00 I have donated to NR as
> Censor is definately excessive don't you agree? And
> that is just me. This is just for phone calls,
> office supplies (paper and ink for printer).

GH:I'm not saying that it isn't. I'm not even saying
that I would be willing to give that much. Don't
misunderstand me, I fully support the idea of
taxation. One hundred percent. I just don't want to
see us paint ourselves into a corner, or disown
someone who could be a great benefit to us all.
>

> Sulla: Well I answered that above. I try to make
> hard copies of everything I send out. And, I was
> validated in this during a recent computer crash.
> Having the paper copies of the Censor work I did
> helped us recover faster from that crash. However,
> as Censor, I am still having a phone bill of about
> 30.00 on average a month (I have not called
> overseas). But the highest my phone bill has been
> was over 80.00 per month (just for NR calls). Phone
> calls are my largest expense.

Okay, I can see all of that. We all know how phone
bills can add up. Remember, the view from the
bleachers isn't all that great...we can't see what
you're doing up there unless you let us know.
Speaking as someone who has no clue what each of the
positions is responsible for, its hard to judge how
much money is really required to do the job.

> Sulla: Well, then just what is the protest then?
> Do you think its fair that the magistrates bear the
> burden of operating Nova Roma?

I don't think I am personally protesting. I think I
am campaigning to make sure that we don't overlook
small details and to make sure that we are as
completely inclusive as we can be.

To show my committment to the idea of taxes, earlier
this evening, I made a donation to Nova Roma via
PayPal. It wasn't a lot, it was $25. Today that is
what I can afford. A month from now it may be more. I
am available to do whatever I can to take the burdeon
off of anyone. I am pretty handy with Word, Excel,
even Access. I program independent databases in
Access as a part of what I do for a living. I design
complex Excel spreadsheets for data analysis. I teach
all three of these programs and others. I have some
education in accounting. I am a writer. I can make
phone calls with the best of them. I am a data
analyst. I can do data entry. I type 60-70 wpm.

I offer myself up to Roma... do with me as you
will...but I will still be the advocate voice for
those with less financial resources, minority
situations, etc....its part of who I am...

=====
Gaia Natalina Casca
Fremont, California

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/


Subject:	FWD: Re: [novaroma] Inclusion vs. Exclusion
From:	mansker@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 03:24:39 -0000

Salve Gaia -

<Snipped>
> To show my committment to the idea of taxes, earlier
> this evening, I made a donation to Nova Roma via
> PayPal. It wasn't a lot, it was $25. Today that is
> what I can afford. A month from now it may be more. I
> am available to do whatever I can to take the burdeon
> off of anyone. I am pretty handy with Word, Excel,
> even Access. I program independent databases in
> Access as a part of what I do for a living. I design
> complex Excel spreadsheets for data analysis. I teach
> all three of these programs and others. I have some
> education in accounting. I am a writer. I can make
> phone calls with the best of them. I am a data
> analyst. I can do data entry. I type 60-70 wpm.
>
> I offer myself up to Roma... do with me as you
> will...but I will still be the advocate voice for
> those with less financial resources, minority
> situations, etc....its part of who I am...
>
> =====
> Gaia Natalina Casca
> Fremont, California
>
I also made this suggestion, and I feel that this would be a
reasonable way of letting people who can afford it assist NovaRoma
financially, and those who cannot (for whatever reason)allow their
services to be used by NovaRoma to help cut costs in other ways.

Unfortunately, in the posts that I have read and the reply that I
recieved from my post, I feel that those "in the know" feel that
these suggestions will not work.

I understand the costs of running a website and an organization, and
I too have donated via PayPal. But if you want to impose taxes
(which again, I am not against), it would seem reasonable to have an
option in place for those citizens who cannot (or will not) pay them,
so that they, too, can benefit NovaRoma.

Gaia Flacca Severa
Portland, Oregon
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/


Subject:	[novaroma] Taxes and ideas (an addition reply to M. Octavius)
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 13:25:37 +1000 (EST)

Ave Marcus Octavius et omnes,

I'm not adverse to paying the $12.00 per year, but I
think that I am more in favor of the gens tax that
Lucius Equitius proposed earlier on. That being, that
gens pay a reasonable fee (say $15-$20) and each
additional member pays $2-$4 each. One of the reasons
that I am in favour of this is that it spares those
who do not wish to have to fork out that amount of
money on account of the fact that they participate
rarely, and those for who (and I know someone who is
in this predicament) has not seen anything like a
AUS$20 note in his wallet for a long time, since he
pays his way through University, his internet access
is government funded, and is currently poorer than a
man who remembers the last cash he had were peices of
eight!:-) The other reasons is that for gens with only
one member, it equals out the tax ratio, but with gens
with larger members, it still brings in quite an
income. Also, it would encourage people to join other
gens rather than to create their own, and prevent an
overflowing of the already large amount of gentes. I
think this is a more equitable method of taxation, as
it would allow Marcus Octavius to recoup monies spent,
and allow NR a good income while not alienating those
who are either not as fortunate, those who are only
wanting to devote to extremely small areas of Roman
life, or those who love Rome and want to relive it
merely by sharing the honor and dignity by being a
civis of Nova Roma.

I would like to hear anyone else's opinions on this
subject. I personally would like to see the ideas of
Lucius Equitius adopted on the above scale, so that
not only can Nova Roma profit, but so can its members.

Just my two aureii worth on this topic.

Valete bene,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

--- Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Salve L. Sicini, 
 
> Then there is our website. You may not be
paying for 
> it, but that dosen't mean it's free. Marcus
Octavius 
> is paying these costs out of his pocket. I don't
know 
> the terms he has with his provider, but I do know
what 
> my site costs. 
 
$350 a month. That's what it costs to have a
server physically located 
in the office of an ISP - even a sm all one. And
having my own server 
allows much greater flexibility than having a
"virtual host" at an ISP. 
 
Of course, Nova Roma isn't the only site on my server
-- but it is by 
far the busiest. 
 
So you can see why I despair when people protest being
asked to pay 
$12 a year. :) 
 
Vale, Octavius. 
 
 
--- 
M. Octavius Germanicus 
Propraetor, Lacus Magni 
Curator Araneum et Senator 
 
</tt>

 



<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gods of the Underworld
From:	SkaldElf@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 00:08:33 EDT

Ave,

I worship mainly the goddesses of the underworld i.e. Prosperina, Trivia,
Nyx, Invidia, and so forth. Not to worry you are not alone in this. If I'm
not mistaken Sextus Apollonius Draco is indeed a citizen of Belgium. Hope
this helps.

Vale,
Aeternia


Subject:	[novaroma] Office Suite
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 04:15:47 -0000

Salvete,

Ya'll are using Excell, etc.
MS Office?

UGH :oP

That program is absurdly overpriced and a massive security hole (Who
needs a Word processor that is capable of formatting your hard drive)

I strongly recomend that Nova Roma adapt Sun's Staroffice instead of
using Microsoft's virus laden office product. It has most of the
features of MSO, can import Most MSO files, and the price is a lot better.

FREE!
(Which will save us hardworking taxpayers money) ;o)

Yes, Staroffice can be downloaded for free at Suns website, or you can
order a CD with documentation for US $39.00 which is a considerable
savings over what Redmond charges. The only drawback is there isn't a
Mac version yet, but hey that Redmond company dosen't offer a version
of it's software for Linux or Solaris and Staroffice does! If you
really want a Mac Version, download the sourcecode (GNU's General
Public License) and build yourself a Mac Version ;o)

To save on download time for those using a modem, under the license
terms (Sun's BCL) Nova Roma can purchase 1 CD and offer it for
instalation on EVERY magistrates computer by sending them a copy. Yes
it's legal, not software piracy like that Redmond company's license.

See http://www.sun.com/staroffice/ for details.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Office Suite
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 21:47:49 -0700

Salve L. Sicini;

Yes, StarOffice has been suggested as an option
before. And yes, we have noted your bias.
Btw, you might also note that Gaia is
an accredited expert in Excel, something
which no doubt took some time and effort
(having a few certs myself in various
technical disciplines,)perhaps
deserving more than your curt dismissal.

Do we really want to go down the
comparative software road on the mainlist?
Me thinks not. Staroffice is a good
alternative for those that choose to use
it. I've used it myself on many a platform
and its has its strengths and weaknesses
like everything else. It is not a panacea,
it is not a savior to the world's 'office
suite' needs.

That being said, for the record -if someone
does not have an office suite product, Staroffice
is a nice low/no cost alternative. If
you do have an office suite, use what you're good
at, use what your comfortable with.
Software wars are something we don't need
on the main list.

Bene vale,
Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: lsicinius@-------- [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 9:16 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Office Suite

Salvete,

Ya'll are using Excell, etc.
MS Office?

UGH :oP

<snipped>

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


Subject:	[novaroma] Party Politics in the Age of Caesar
From:	robert woolwine <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 01:06:00 -0400 (EDT)

Ave,

Recently on Ebay, I won a bid on a book by Lily Ross Taylor. Its called "Party Politics in the Age of Caesar." While I am here at work....being bored waiting for calls, I thought I would do a search on the Net for some information about this book...and here is a short article I found. I am reposting it along with the website so that if you are interested you can see where I found this.

____

Lily Ross Taylor, Party Politics in the Age of Caesar (University of California Press, Berkeley and Los Angeles, 1949) quot. pp.50, 56, 81, 96

Lily Ross Taylor's Party Politics in the Age of Caesar
J. Andrew McLaughlin
� 1996

The book Party Politics in the Age of Caesar by Lily Ross Taylor is essentially, in most instances a work relating historical fact as far as we are able to judge from extant sources. In any book of a historical nature we must take into account the choices of source material made by the author. That said, it is important to realize that in modem times we are limited in the number of accounts of history passed to us directly from the ancients. In this case, Ms. Taylor has utilized primarily the work of Cicero as the basis for historical fact in attempting to lay out her vision of late Republican- era politics in Rome. Her approach concentrates mainly on breaking down the complex nature of the politics into its component parts in the first half of the work. The second half uses this as a basis for her retelling and interpretation of specific historical events and trends of the era. Only in the third chapter do we see what the author characterizes as historical interpretation differing from the commonly accepted view.

The author has used many different sources to compose Party Politics including books, letters and published speeches, however there is a recurring theme of Cicero as primary material. Ms. Taylor makes it clear that Cicero has certain biases in favor of the optimates, or conservative nobles of the Roman Senate, however his writings are utilized throughout the work as the primary basis of historical fact. Thus we must consider whether in some instances there might exist a significant element of that bias.

The third chapter attempts to present Ms. Taylor's views of the Roman balloting system, in which she feels the rural Italian community exercised greater influence than that for which it is generally given credit. She feels that although it was much easier for urban Romans to physically attend voting procedures, the candidates for office would often rely on garnering the support of the wealthy men of the Italian towns and arrange for them to be present in Rome during the ballot. She uses by way of example the fact that candidates would often spend the better part of a year canvassing these men and making the "right" contacts in the towns and quotes a letter by Cicero's brother advising him on the proper strategy. The author holds that the urban masses were often used primarily as a tool for passing of legislation by the populates, whom Cicero says were using popular support as a weapon for personal political advancement against the optimates.

During the first five of the eight chapters of Party Politics, Ms Taylor strives to present a number of major political events of the era in each chapter while concentrating primarily on their common aspects. These chapters discuss "Personalities and Programs", "Nobles, Clients and Personal Armies", "Delivering the Vote", "Manipulating the State Religion" and "The Criminal Courts". Thus these chapters have very little in the way of a comprehensible timeline or sequence of events; rather the book will often discuss a single event in two chapters but use them to demonstrate a different point in each instance;

"When Cato was the choice ... for the praetorship, Pompey, who did not wish Cato to be elected, suddenly heard thunder and dissolved the assembly." (chapter 3, p.56)

"[Pompey] declared, after Cato had been chosen for the office by the praerogativa centuria, that he had heard thunder. Pompey dissolved the assembly..." (chapter 4, p. 8 1)

These examples of the same event serve as an illustration for the reason that the first quote is in the work intended to emphasize the importance of the praerogativa and the second as an example of manipulation of the state religion for political ends. The last three chapters relate themes and incidents illustrative of the foundations set forth in these chapters.

Although Party Politics refrains from expressing many new ideas about the politics of Rome, the work is useful as a perspective on different aspects of the subject. In particular, it contains many examples of the importance of religion and even contains a bit of philosophy on the subject of the "shocking religious abuses of [the] day" (chapter 4, P. 96). Ms. Taylor presents some thoughtful arguments about the importance of rural Italians in the voting process, and even takes a good natured swipe at the "rather sweeping statements" (chapter 3, p.50) of the differing viewpoint of one of her contemporaries. It is a notable work of historical analysis.
___

http://www.visopsys.org/andy/essays/party-politics-caesar.html

___

As anyone read this book? I would really like to hear any comments good or bad about this book.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Office Suite
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 05:50:33 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@--------> wrote:
> Salve L. Sicini;
>
> Yes, StarOffice has been suggested as an option
> before. And yes, we have noted your bias.
> Btw, you might also note that Gaia is
> an accredited expert in Excel, something
> which no doubt took some time and effort
> (having a few certs myself in various
> technical disciplines,)perhaps
> deserving more than your curt dismissal.
>
> Do we really want to go down the
> comparative software road on the mainlist?
> Me thinks not. Staroffice is a good
> alternative for those that choose to use
> it. I've used it myself on many a platform
> and its has its strengths and weaknesses
> like everything else. It is not a panacea,
> it is not a savior to the world's 'office
> suite' needs.
>
> That being said, for the record -if someone
> does not have an office suite product, Staroffice
> is a nice low/no cost alternative. If
> you do have an office suite, use what you're good
> at, use what your comfortable with.
> Software wars are something we don't need
> on the main list.
>
> Bene vale,
> Oppius
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lsicinius@-------- [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
> Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 9:16 PM
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] Office Suite
>
>
> Salvete,
>
> Ya'll are using Excell, etc.
> MS Office?
>
> UGH :oP
>
> <snipped>

LOL
This symbol ;o) is a wink, and signifies that there is some levity
intended in a post. There are several in my post.

That post was a rather light hearted view of something you will have
to get used to once the badly needed taxes are imposed. Sugestions
from citizens that Nova Roma spend the money wisely.

Part of the reason that taxes are needed is we can't expect our
magistrates to continue to pay the costs of holding office. To do so
severly limits the number of Citizens who will be able to afford to
stand for Office. If you have an Office Suite on your Computer, then
by all means use the Suite that's allready there.

My post was inspired by our Rogator, A. Cato, who mentioned that he
had to AQUIRE Excell after being elected. It was happenstance that
another post that I hadn't read yet also mentoned the same product,
and it wasn't aimed at Gaia.

There will be people elected to offices who don't have the software
needed to perform thier duties installed on thier computer, and in
these cases, IMHO Nova Roma should provide the needed software. To do
otherwise puts us right back to limiting office to those who have
higher incomes.

For US $39.00 Nova Roma can provide any new magistrate (except Mac
users) needing an office suite with the software to perform thier
duties. How much will it cost us prospective taxpayers to do the same
with software from that Redmond Company? (That I honestly admited my
bias against)

As Nova Roma grows she is going to need to aquire more and more
software for internal use by her officers and she should ALLWAYS get
that software at the best possible price. I'm not intrested in
starting a software war, I'm intrested in starting a price war, and
that is a war that MS loses as far as Office Suits goes.

L. Sicinius Drusus


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] RE: nation vs club perspective (too long)
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 23:22:30 -0700

Salve Cne Mari,

A few comments below. My apologies before hand
as I'm not sure if I'm understanding your meaning
in all the statements below, so please correct
any misinterpretations made in my reply.
-----Original Message-----
<snipped>

A Nation, yes, but a very particular kind of a nation. In the contemporary
world you are usually born as a member of this or that nation. Some of us
enjoy occasionally a rare freedom of choice of the nation we belong to,
mostly due to the taxation level differences. In general - choosing the
nation you feel at home is an exception rather than a rule in the
contemporary world. When you consider that most of us (if not all,
considering NR's lack of suppression apparatus) elected to join the
community as a result of their free and unconstrainted decision - that gives
your Nation perspective a new sense.

OFS: I certainly seem to agree with what
you're saying so far. Our multinational perspective
truly one of our greatest strengths. Also, the
fact that we are all here by mutual choice.

We are the members of a Nation born out of Spirit rather, than the
Structure. It is much easier to build up the structure, than to demonstrate
the very existence of the common spirit. Any new community I learned in my
life had a natural tendency of:

- building up some kind of of the formal structure,
- building up its very own jargon,
- defining it limits and building a (lower or higher) wall separating it
from the outside world.

This is not appropriate for this kind of a Nation we try to build.

OFS: So I can clarify my understanding here, is
the issue due to the citizenship verifications,
taxation or combination of same and/or other
factors? You're favoring a Nation approach, but
with a lesser structure. If this understanding
is correct, what would your suggestions be?
If my understanding is not correct, please
clarify for me.

This is
not appropriate for a number of reasons of both practical and historical
nature. Do you remember times when there was no Rome? When hordes of
barbarians were building their order on the graves of the ancient emperors?
There was however something that was alive through all the Dark Ages: the
very idea of Rome, the very idea of multinational, multicultural Empire -
the Spirit we bear in our hearts. This community was born out of the Spirit
and replacing the Spirit with the Structure or even making the Structure
dominating over the Spirit would mean rejecting our own roots.

OFS: The same question is above. Are you saying that
from my post I am making a point to eliminate a spirit
of Rome, or eliminate our strong multicultural element
by discussing taxation and citizenship requirements?
To allow that I may be missing your point, I can but say
that my personal perspective could be no further apart
from what you're saying. Personally, I don't favor excessive
structure either beyond a few basics to allow for our
Nation to run (fiscal,) to allow for our Nation to
be managed, (basic governance,) and allow our Nation
some of the fundamental rights of any nation to attach
identity to its citizens.

The structure of the formal rights and obligations you mention is a
relatively new invention, which might be attributed to the XIX century
nation states. The past used to be far more tolerant.

OFS: There may be some mixing and matching of
posts here, but I honestly don't follow your statement
about tolerance. Is it intolerant to have the basic
'plumbing' if you will to run a nation?

In the old Rome many
nations, many religions, many cultures and traditions used to live together.
Double loyalty - one to the Rome and the emperor, one to the local tradition
of your town/tribe/country - was somethig usual, something obvious. Look,
how that structure of the old Roman society resembles us, coming each from
his own tradition, bearing the burden of his own customs and the loyalty to
his natural environment.

OFS: True. I fully agree that our greatest strength
is the great diversity of our members. I've posted
on that topic myself and couldn't agree more!

We have to learn to live like our ancient Roman predecessors did, we have to
learn to live within the double loyalty scheme. Moreover, to draw the most
and the best from our common efforts, we have to learn to contribute, or
even to require from everyone contributing what her/his native
tradition/nation/tribe has to offer, and relying on the Spirit as an
integrating factor.

OFS: Sounds good to me!

I was born and have spent most of my life in one of the communist states,
where the Structure was everything. Where there was no place for the Spirit,
even less space for the double loyalty, for the diversity. I admit that this
experience might have distorted my perspective of the mutual balance between
the Structure and the Spirit. The stronger I will argue however that we are
bound to construct the community (or a Nation, as you like) open for people
coming from variuos parts of the contemporary world, bearing the burden of
diversified experiences, representing different traditions. I cannot imagine
these goals to be attainable in a society where the Structure prevails over
the Spirit.

OFS: Your perspective is most valued in this! As for
the spirit, I truly hope that myself or others have not
given you the idea that any sense of spirit of diversity
is being subdued. If so, please clarify that we can address
these concerns.

I was born in a society whose shape resembled once the structure of the old
Roman empire - many nations/religions/traditions/cultures living peacefully
together, under the control of the relatively loose structure. Yes, it is
true that this loose structure was no match for the neighbouring absolute
powers/tyrannies, which led to the collapse of so organized state. But the
spirit of the community planted in this society was strong enough to survive
over 150 years of supression and to rebuild the state, once the conditions
permitted that. Is it not similar to the story of the Spirit of Rome, giving
now birth to the Nation in our hearts?

OFS: As to the spirit in our hearts, I agree -indeed
it what I hope we're all seeking. Though we may disagree
at times on 'how to get there,' it is my personal belief
that most of us do have the love and spirit of Roma
in our hears.

I fear that giving the Structure priority over the Spirit we would not only
reject the very tradition of the tolerant, multinational and multicultural
Roman emipre, but also reject the valuable contribution of our brothers, who
are not ready or who cannot accept the single loyalty system and the
Structure it implies.

OFS: I'll wait for clarification before commenting
much further.

Bene vale,
Oppius

<snipped>

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] ATTN: Winners of the Cerealia / Romae Conditio Festival contest
From:	QFabiusMax@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 03:29:13 EDT

In a message dated 4/20/2001 1:07:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
hendrik.meuleman@-------- writes:

<>
Salvete,
Were may we go to view all the entries?
Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gods of the Underworld
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:59:02 +0100 (BST)

Salve,

--- hadescallias@-------- wrote: > Does anyone at
Nova Roma follow the Gods of the
> Underworld like i do
> and are there any members from nova roma who like me
> live in belgium.
> thank you.

There are more people from Belgium than you think, I
for example am one of them, together with my fratres
Sextus Apollonius Draco, Lucius Apollonius Aquilus,
Quintus Apollonius Flaccus, Titus Apollonius Parvus
and Marcus Apollonius Tacitus. And I think I have
forgotten one. There are also Belgians in other
gentes, you might want to check out the Album
Provinciae on the Nova Roma website.

Vale

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
civis Novae Romae
____________________________

"De te autem, Catilina, cum quiescunt, probant; cum patiuntur, decernunt; cum tacent, clamant." (M. Tullius Cicero: In Catilinam I, 20)

____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie


Subject:	[novaroma] Renuntatio Propraetoricium II about the first Plenum of the Consilium Provincale Thules
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 10:32:08 +0200

Ex Officio Propraetoris Thulae

Renuntatio Propraetoricium II
about the first Plenum of the Consilium Provincale Thules
21 April 2001
From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, Propraetor Thules

Salve All!

The Propraetor just want to assure the Nova Roma Citizens of Thule that the
Consilium Provincale Thules is in hard work for the Provincia. The first
Plenum of the Consilium Provincale Thules has been going on for nearly six
days and will continue for eight days more, ending on 29th of April. Within
a couple of days the Propraetor will publish the first few Edicts that are
the result of the first half of the work of the Consilium. During the
following more Edicts will follow.

By publishing the first two Edicts, the Regula and the Plan, the Propraetor
laid the basis for the organisation of the Provincia. Now during the first
Plenum of the Consilium, the Propraetor and his Legati and Consiliarius
continue to build on that ground. It is the firm belief of the Propraetor
that during these days the Provincia will give birth to a very complex and
strong new kind of Provincia!

There will be a lot of work to be done, to make these dreams come true! As
Propraetor I deeply hope to see more citizens step forward into the light
to take part in this revival on the Nordic ground of a reborn Nova Roman
Provincia!

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
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************************************************
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************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
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************************************************
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************************************************
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************************************************
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A Bill Of Rights
From:	"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:03:30 +0200

Salve Legate,

Adrian Gunn wrote:

> I would like to point out

> that I am not suggesting that civic responsibilities, such as voting,

> should be required by law - but simply spelled out as an ideal that

> all citizens should aspire too. Given the current state of citizen

> participation in Nova Roma, I would say that we are failing as a

> Democracy.

I don't agree with you. Requiring *by law* a citizen to vote. I hope to
live in a democracy (my macronation is Switzerland) but we don't have an
obligation to vote. Actually, at every vote (4 times per year) we have
*always* around 50% abstinents. And I wouldn't consider Switzerland to
be failing as a democracy.

Vale
--
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
Friburgii Helvetiorum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A question regarding Gens
From:	"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:25:02 +0200

Salve Claudia Aucelia Calpurnia

> so i'm just stuck here

> belonging to a gens I am the only active member of and

> a paterfamilias who has pretty much dropped off the

> face of the earth. I'd like some advice on what I

> should do from here.

I don't know if Novaroma knows the word "adoption"? Couldn't you be adopted

by a new paterfamilias? That would be the easiest, I guess. However I
don't know if your current paterfamilias has to agree :-(

vale!

--
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
Friburgii Helvetiorum


Subject:	[novaroma] Romae Laudatio
From:	"Laietanus" <enric.ferrer@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 13:32:24 +0200

POPULUS NOVAROMANUS HISPANIAE NOVAROMANI S.P.D.

I.O.M.S
ROMANI HISPANIAE SVMVS
ROMA IN VITA NOSTRA ET IN IVRE NOSTRE PERVIVET
ROMA IN CIVITATIS ET IN VIIS NOSTRIS PERVIVET
IN LARIBVS NOSTRIBVS,
IN LINGUIS NOSTRIS,
IN OCULIS NOSTRIS ET
IN CORDIBVS NOTRIS
ROMA NOBISCVM HODIE VIVET
ROMA AETERNA MATER ET LVX SEMPER ERIT

A.D. XI KALENDAS MAIAE - MMDCCLIV A.V.C.
FESTIVITAS PALILIARUM

CIVES HISPANIAE - Gnaeus Salix Astur, Matritis / Marcus Salix Davianus, Barcino / Gnaeus Salix Galaicus, Brigantium / Lucius Minicius Laietanus, Barcino / Spurius Aelius Baeticus Malacitanus, Matritis / Marcus Minicius Rufus, Matritis / Caius Valerius Hispanicus Sparticus / Marcus Salix Vigilius, Canarias

�------------------------------------------�
Consagrado a Iuppiter Optimo Maximo

Somos romanos de Hispania
Roma pervive en nuestra vida y en nuestra ley
Roma pervive en nuestras ciudades y en nuestros caminos
En nuestras casas,
en nuestras lenguas,
en nuestros ojos y
en nuestros corazones
Roma vive hoy con nosotros.
Roma ser� siempre madre y luz eterna.

21 de Abril de 2001.
Festividad de las Palilia

CIVES HISPANIAE - Gnaeus Salix Astur, Matritis / Marcus Salix Davianus, Barcino / Gnaeus Salix Galaicus, Brigantium / Lucius Minicius Laietanus, Barcino / Spurius Aelius Baeticus Malacitanus, Matritis / Marcus Minicius Rufus, Matritis / Caius Valerius Hispanicus Sparticus / Marcus Salix Vigilius, Canarias
�------------------------------------------�

Dedicated to Iuppiter Optimus Maximus

We are Romans from Hispania
Rome still lives in our lifes and in our laws
Rome still lives in our cities and in our roads
in our homes,
in our tongues,
in our eyes and
in our hearts.
Rome lives on through us.
Rome will always be mother and eternal light.

April the 21st, 2001.
Festivity of the Parilia.

CIVES HISPANIAE - Gnaeus Salix Astur, Matritis / Marcus Salix Davianus, Barcino / Gnaeus Salix Galaicus, Brigantium / Lucius Minicius Laietanus, Barcino / Spurius Aelius Baeticus Malacitanus, Matritis / Marcus Minicius Rufus, Matritis / Caius Valerius Hispanicus Sparticus / Marcus Salix Vigilius, Canarias
�------------------------------------------�

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gods of the Underworld
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:17:31 +0200

Salve, whoever you may be (didn't quite catch a name),

I am a Belgian, as are my fratres Tiberius, Lucius, Quintus, Marcus and
Titus. From which part of Belgium are you?

Vale bene,
Sextus Apollonius Draco


Subject:	Fw: [novaroma] ATTN: Winners of the Cerealia / Romae Conditio Festival contest
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 14:03:13 +0200

>
> Salve Praetor Maxime,
>
> I'm going to compile them in a document, and I hope our retiarus Oppius
> Flaccus shall make them available via the Sodalitas Musarum website. For
> now they are only available in the archives of both the main list and the
> SodMus list.
>
> Vale bene!
> Draco
>
>
>
> Planet Internet Webmail -- http://www.pimail.be
>


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Re Taxes
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 12:15:48 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, mansker@m... wrote:
> Salve -
>
> Just a few words on the tax issue.
>
> I am a new member (a little over a month), and have enjoyed my
> membership so far. I was asked to be a rogator for a collegium, and
> I agreed. I have donated through paypal, and have talked with my
> Pater regarding becoming more active.
>
> I feel that if you want to see a society survive, you must become
> active in that society. I know that not everyone can bear the cost
> of taxes, but what if you held an office that would help to lessen
> the cost of running NovaRoma?
>
> As an example: I am an accredited expert in Excel. I run a company
> that does marketing. I have vast experience in a number of things,
> some of which might be valuable to NovaRoma, some of which might not
> be, but I would be willing to use my talents and my efforts to help
> further our cause.
>
> I would also be able to pay taxes and do not see this as an issue,
> but I would also be happy to be of service rather than pay taxes if I
> didn't have the money. (I hereby state that I would be happy to be of
> service anyway, if anyone needs me for anything).
>
> I think that if people were given an option to either pay taxes or
> due service that would benefit NovaRoma, it would allow those who
> didn't have the money to still become a citizen, become active, and
> help NovaRoma at the same time.
>
> I would be interested in hearing what others think of this idea.
>
> Bene,
>
> Gaia Flacca Severa
>

Salve Gaia Flacca,

I can accept the idea that Citizens be allowed to make in kind
donations of services in lieu of taxes, provided that it is clearly
understood that this isn't some kind of right.

I'm NOT intrested in seeing a bunch of posts complaining that Nova
Roma is violating the "rights" of some citizens because she won't
create unneeded make work jobs for every citizen who can't/won't pay
thier taxes.

If there is a job that needs to be done, and a citizen who has the
skills to perform that job fine.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus


Subject:	[novaroma] CANADA OCCIDENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER THIRTEEN
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 07:53:15 -0500

CANADA OCCIDENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER THIRTEEN

APPOINTMENT OF SENIOR LEGATE

21 Apr 2001

Salve All

I, Quintus Sertorius, Propraetor Canada Occidentalis, issue the following Edicta to announce the appointment of Remesa Debrascus as Senoir Legate for Canada Occidentalis. In the absence of the Propraetor, the Senoir Legate will act as Governor.

Vale

Quintus Sertorius
Tribune
Propraetor
Canada Occidentalis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gods of the Underworld
From:	"mike rasschaert" <hadescallias@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 12:21:51 +0200

i worship both the Gods and Goddesses of the Underworld, but my list of these deities isn't complete. can anyone help me with that. i would much appreciated it.
----- Original Message -----
From: SkaldElf@--------
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Gods of the Underworld

Ave,

I worship mainly the goddesses of the underworld i.e. Prosperina, Trivia,
Nyx, Invidia, and so forth. Not to worry you are not alone in this. If I'm
not mistaken Sextus Apollonius Draco is indeed a citizen of Belgium. Hope
this helps.

Vale,
Aeternia


Subject:	[novaroma] CANADA OCCIDENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER FOURTEEN
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:28:18 -0500

CANADA OCCIDENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER FOURTEEN

EXPANSION OF PROVINCIA ADMINISTRATION

21 Apr 2001

Salve All

I, Quintus Sertorius, Propraetor Canada Occidentalis, issue the following Edicta to announce the expansion of the Provincia Administration. These changes are adopted from those created by the Propraetor of the Provincia of Thule.

1. The Propraetor Canada Occidentalis may appoint one Senior Legatus, this could be an
separate position or held together with one of the Legatus Regionis
positions. The Senior Legatus shall function as Deputy to the Propraetor
when so ordered by the Propraetor Canada Occidentalis. The Propraetor shall publish an
edictum for each occasion that the Senior Legatus shall function as his
Deputy. The Edictum shall include directives for the assignment including
time for the assignment and the actual task. The Senior Legati can also be
assigned special missions, aside the assignments as Deputy, by the
Propraetor Canada Occidentalis. These missions and the duration of them will be
specified in Propraetorian edicts. The appointment and dismissal of the
Senior Legatus shall follow the same rules as for the other Legati.

2. The Propraetor may appoint a "Consilium Provinciale Canada Occidentalis" (The
Provincial Council of Canada Occidentalis) to advice the Propraetor, who shall act as
Chairman and call the Consilium to order. The Consilium shall consider only
those issues put forward to it by the Propraetor Canada Occidentalis; the Consilium can
not in itself put issues on the agenda, although its members can make such
suggestion personally to the Propraetor. The Propraetor shall act as
Secterarius for the Consilium and keep the minutes. The Propraetor can, as
he wishes, decide to not follow the counsel of the Consilium Provinciale
Canada Occidentalis. Members will be all Legates and Prolegates, including the Senior
Legatus. The Propraetor will also be able to call other cives to sit in the
Consilium, these members will be called "Consiliarius" or "Consiliaria".
Consiliarii can be appointed or dismissed at any time by the Propraetor
Canada Occidentalis. The Consiliarii normally sits for the same period as the Legati.
The Consilium will not function to exclude cives, but to unite the
provincial leadership so that it in its turn can function as a center for
all communication, work and contact within the Provincia. Procedures for the Consilium will be decided by the Propraetor.

3. The Propraetor Canada Occidentalis shall appoint a "Praeco Aranei Canada Occidentalis" (Provincial
webmaster, Crier of the Web of Canada Occidentalis) for the homepage for Provincia Canada Occidentalis and a "Praefectus Sermonis Canada Occidentalis" (Provincial List Moderator, Head of
Speech of Canada Occidentalis) to arrange for the administration of the Canada Occidentalis e-mail
list. The Praeco Aranei Canada Occidentalis and the Praefectus Sermonis Canada Occidentalis can be
appointed or dismissed at any time by the Propraetor Canada Occidentalis.

4. The leadership (the Consilium) of the Provincia, shall work together to
make Nova Roma and Canada Occidenatlsi strong in all possible ways: Roman Religio,
personal meetings, seminars/conferences, financial work, other work within
Nova Roma and so on. The Propraetor shall, as the Provincia get enough
enthusiastic cives, appoint "Procuratores" for each of these activities.
For now the Propraetor will act as Procurator Aerarium (Provincial
Quaestor), until such time as this position can be filled by a willing
civis. The Propraetor shall also appoint one position to deal with external
contacts (external contacts with universities, museums, schools, mass media
and other interesting organizations), who will be called "Legatus ad Res
Externas" (Legate for External Affairs), who also will have to keep in
touch with the Sodalitas Egressus. All Procuratores and the Legatus ad Res
Externas can be appointed or dismissed at any time by the Propraetor Canada Occidentalis.

5. The Propraetor Canada Occidentalis shall appoint a Legatus Militum (Military Tribune)
who is responsible for all contacts with re-enactment Legions and showing
Roman military uniforms and weapon on Roman days and the like. The Legatus
Militia also is responsible for all military studies of the Roman army and
navy, within Provincia Canada Occidentalis. The Propraetor Canada Occidentalis may appoint a young man
or woman to the position of Contubernalis Provincia (Provinsial Adjutant),
the personal military assistant to the Propraetor. The Legatus Militum and
the Contubernalis Provincia can be appointed or dismissed at any time by
the Propraetor Canada Occidentalis.

Vale

Quintus Sertorius
Tribune
Propraetor
Canada Occidentalis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] CANADA OCCIDENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER FIFTEEN
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:47:11 -0500

CANADA OCCIDENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER FIFTEEN

APPOINTMENT OF PRAECO ARANEI CANADA OCCIDENTALIS

21 Apr 2001

Salve All

I, Quintus Sertorius, Propraetor Canada Occidentalis, issue the following Edicta to announce the appointment of Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa to the position of "Praeco Aranei Canada Occidentalis" (Provincial Webmaster, Crier of the Web of Canada Occidentalis).

Vale

Quintus Sertorius
Tribune
Propraetor
Canada Occidentalis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] ATTN: Winners of the Cerealia / Romae Conditio Festival contest
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 07:05:50 -0700

Salvete Draco et Q. Fabi;

These entries will indeed be available
via the Musarum website. The updates
are admittedly behind, but once my
current work project cycle catches
in mid-May or so, then will be going
back to try and include both the
festival submissions and the previous
ones.

Draco -if you do end up compiling a
master document, please cc' me on
it as well and at least as a temporary
measure, I can include the work on
our site as one compendium document and
break it out later by Collegium.

Bene valete,
Oppius

-----Original Message-----
From: S. Apollonius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:03 AM
To: Nova Roma
Subject: Fw: [novaroma] ATTN: Winners of the Cerealia / Romae Conditio Festival
contest

>
> Salve Praetor Maxime,
>
> I'm going to compile them in a document, and I hope our retiarus Oppius
> Flaccus shall make them available via the Sodalitas Musarum website. For
> now they are only available in the archives of both the main list and the
> SodMus list.
>
<snipped>

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Festival
From:	"Marcos Boehme" <m_arminius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:24:04 -0300

Salvete...

Oh, by Minerva, im horrified to see a private post in the main list...
I apologize to Draco and the Musarum...

Marcus Arminius Maior

--

On Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:50:15
Marcos Boehme wrote:
>Salve, Coryphaeus Musarum
>
>Nothing new [snip]

Get 250 color business cards for FREE!
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Subject:	[novaroma] Taxes and the Religio
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 07:57:38 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Quirites,

Nova Roma isn't limited to just it's secular
government. The Religio is also in need of funds, so
I'm introducing a rather thorny topic.

Should part of our tax money be used for the Religio?
This is an important part of Nova Roma's mission. I
quote from Nova Roma's main page "Dedicated to the
restoration of Classical Roman religion, culture, and
virtues". I for one would like to see part of our
taxes used to fulfill the first of these goals.

However I also realize that many of our Citizens do
not beleave in the ancient Gods, and that some of our
citizens would feel that being forced to contribute to
the Religio would be an affront to thier faith.

This is a basic question that needs to be settled
BEFORE taxes are imposed. Should any part of our taxes
be used to support the Religio?

As I said I would like to see part of our taxes used
for this important goal, However I do NOT have the
right to force others to contribute to what I consider
a worthy cause, so I will have to come out as being
AGAINST any use of the funds collected in a general
tax for the support of the Religio.

Instead I offer this idea. That as part of the Tax
plan the Religio be allowed to add a voluntary Surtax
of say 25% of the General tax. This would ammount to
US $3.00 if the US $12.00 figure is adopted, and that
NO penalty be imposed on any citizen who didn't wish
pay the additional tax for the support of the Religio.

This plan would allow Nova Roma to collect the funds
that the Religio needs to fulfill it's mission without
violating the rights of our citizens to have thier own
private faith.

Does anyone else have any comments on this subject?

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Inclusion vs. Exclusion
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:07:56 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes!

> So yes, if that means that we reward those that take an active
> role,
> and exclude those that merely lend their name and nothing more...I
> think that
> is something we must truly consider.
>
> Respectfully,
> Gaius Cornelius Nycticorax
>

I agree completely with rewarding those that show interest, but I do
not agree with punishing those who do not. That is, more or less, on of
the most important points of my previous post.

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] 21st of April 753BC...
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 16:08:55 +0100 (BST)

Salvete,

I hope people don't forget today's date: it's the 21st
of April, the legendary date of the founding of Rome.
I know this date means nothing in history because
there was never such thing as a founding of Rome on
this perticular day, but I thought it nice to be
mentioned.

So, on the 21st of April 753BC (i.e. 2754 years ago)
the legendary city of Rome was founded and the base
was settled for the future Imperium Romanum. Indeed a
glorious day for all of us Nova Romans, I think.

Any comments?

Valete

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
civis Novae Romae
____________________________

"De te autem, Catilina, cum quiescunt, probant; cum patiuntur, decernunt; cum tacent, clamant." (M. Tullius Cicero: In Catilinam I, 20)

____________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] My support to Taxes
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:58:33 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes!

I have been reading the responses to my "Inclusion vs. Exclusion" post
and it seems that I have been misinterpreted. This has probably been my
fault.

I want to say that I am totally in favour of taxation and that I intend
to pay an annual tax (at least, as long as it goes around 12-25$; I
wouldn't be able to afford much more!).

What I am against is that citizens should be REQUIRED to pay taxes in
order to be citizens. This would reduce Nova Roma's growth and could
deny Nova Roma the help from many prospective citizens. I would prefer
that they were "downgraded" somehow, or that taxpayers were otherwise
encouraged without "punishing" non-taxpayers.

I would also like that all citizens were highly involved in Nova Roma,
but let's be serious. If someone is not active, the only expense he is
making Nova Roma do is the time of the Censores when they submit their
application and maybe priting paper and ink (�Have you considered
making backup copies on floppy disks? It would be easier, faster and
cheaper, I think). All the other features of Nova Roma would cost more
or less the same if we had 100 citizens or 1,000.

Once again, it all resumes to my previous adagio: reward active
citizens instead of punishing inactive citizens.

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] A new Sodality...? (long)
From:	Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:58:41 -0700 (PDT)

--- UlysseJace@-------- wrote:
> From: UlysseJace@--------
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:22:26 EDT
> Subject: A new Sodality...?
> To: iasonvs_serenvs@--------
>
>
> Ave Quiritibus,
>
> I hope the each of you have had an excellent week
> thusfar. I would like to
> take this time to thank Ser Minucius Hadrianus for
> an excellent and rewarding
> conversation at the Nova Britannia chat site last
> evening. I invite others
> to follow his lead in bringing us closer to mutual
> support and understanding.
>
> If it pleases the patience of the assembled
> citizens, I would like to offer a
> proposal for the creation of a new sodality.
>
> In reviewing the accumulated posts of the past few
> weeks a rare and
> unexpected unity of purpose became apparent in the
> larger patterns of our
> conversations. I say unexpected, of course, because
> the Gods rarely have the
> patience or the humor to allow me to make a mess of
> their providential
> epiphanies.
>
> The "novaroma" list seems to function as a central
> plaza. We come to it,
> read the messages gummed to the assorted pillars,
> reply, and go on about our
> business. The larger issues come into play and
> discussion, but are often
> quickly replaced by new additions to our collective
> exchanges. Unlike a
> forum, wherein the gathered would debate the public
> issues to some extent and
> depth, the main list serves more as an introductory
> meetingplace. As such,
> it works well.
>
> I wonder if some of the issues debated might receive
> greater attention and
> deliberation if a more structured sodality was
> consecrated to that end?
>
> I invite latinists of greater maturity and
> experience then I to suggest a
> name under which this sodality will be consecrated.
>
> An illustration: for several days now we have been
> engaged in a refreshingly
> civilized discussion of what it means to be a
> Novaroman. Using this new
> sodality as a forum, the memberships could engage in
> research, debate,
> presentation, and even written "oratory" on this
> issue alone for an allotted
> period of time, draft a report for the appropriate
> magistates, refer
> applicable issues to other sodalities, and prepare a
> body of formal opinions
> for public review. As such, this new sodality would
> serve as both a
> philosophical college (later to be duplicated on
> terra firma?!) and a
> research body for the Senate and People.
>
> To continue the previous example: Once the new
> sodality, with some sort of
> rotating board of governors or prefects, had
> established a schedule, it could
> assign committees research, debate, and present the
> many aspects of modern
> romanitas. These results might just be useful to
> the work of the Egressus
> sodality, the various pater/materfamilias, and res
> publica itself.
>
> Furthermore, this new sodality would be a excellent
> resource for those
> establishing temples, public gymnasia, local fora
> and outreach programs, as
> many of the issues undertaken by it would later be
> encountered by those
> working towards a roman renaissance in the world at
> hand.
>
> To be better equipped to prosper as romans in the
> modern and developing
> world, we need all the common strengths, bonds, and
> practices we can get our
> minds into. With enough common ground established,
> we can each pursue our
> own personal and individual romanitas, thereby
> increasing the flexibility,
> variety and potency of our community.
>
> Enough said for now. Again, thankyou for your time
> and patience.
>
> Humbly,
>
> Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs Peregrinvs
> Nova Roman
>
>
>

=====
Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs Peregrinvs
(this is a post for which I accept all responsibility)
"The cosmos works by harmony of tensions, like the lyre and the bow."
"Time is a game played beautifully by children."
Heraclitus of Ephesus
HeraclitusFreehold@--------

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Inclusion vs. Exclusion
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 17:46:47 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

I would like to thank Gnaeus Salix Astur for his excellent post on
Inclusion vs. Exclusion. I have been fighting for a long time for
full inclusion of sexual minorities, minorities of opinion, and
language minorities, and a more welcoming attitude towards returning
citizens - and Salix has addressed a closely related problem, the
disesteem for and verbal persecution of normally inactive cives who
are a big *majority* of our commonwealth.

I can understand why sometimes activists in any organisation get
frustrated when they perceive themselves having to do a
disproportionate share of the work in an organisation that has
enough members to divide the work more fairly and get more done if
only, if *only* more members were *active*! I understand it - but in
fact that is not our problem. We have enough active citizens to
function and that number is growing. What seems to bother Oppius is a
belief that a kind of compulsive control and setting of rigid
standards for everyone is absolutely necessary for our welfare, and
that this must be so severe that he is willing to see willing
citizens driven away just because they do not meet his very demanding
criteria for work, monetary tribute, documentation of their existence
by deliberately clumsy means, etc.

Now, I think that every citizen, even the one completely inactive
from the day after he joined, is contributing something precious to
us: his name and his willingness to be associated with us. We are a
more important organisation in the world and one likely to be treated
more seriously by others the more members we have. Most human groups
need an audience for their more famous and active members, and
"indians" as well as "chiefs". And among the many variables in human
life is how active an individual may be desirous and capable of being
in any given organisation (including the political life of his
macronation) at any given time - inactivity is often normal for many
people in many places - and that does not make them worthless.

Yes, the quality of life for the citizens of Nova Roma in terms of
its freedom, opportunities and services, and the contributions we can
make to the rest of the world through our Roman concerns are
important too - I do not believe at all that size of membership is
everything. But if we can have more citizens just by not making
things unnecessarily difficult or by actively trying to weed out the
relatively inactive, let us keep the other citizens. Some people
prefer to be passive and watch and listen with pleasure - why be
savage and demanding with them? A line of information in our database
is not all that heavy a price to pay for an additional citizen, even
if completely inactive. Being unpleasant and demanding with the
inactive will not make many of them more active: it is far more
likely to drive them away completely. So, would Nova Roma really be
better off with only the activists who post on this list at least
once a month? Smallish group, isn't it?

But I am primarily writing now to respond to Oppius' very interesting
post analysing being a club or a micronation:

From: "Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->

<snips passim>

So, in going forward -I propose that the 'macroquestion'
if you will, continues to be 'Nation vs. club/group/organization.'
Since myself and others have spoken at length regarding
this point before, I will not go into 'dissertation'
mode. Suffice it to say for the point of discussion,
those that view NR as a club/group/org are obviously
going to see NR in a *drastically* different way
than those that see it as a *Nation.* It is not up to
me to say which perspective is right or wrong, but
answering the question makes a huge difference in
where we go from here.

Personally (usual disclaimers apply,) I'm of the
'Nation' school of thought. Am I saying that my
way is the 'right' way? No. But it is how I feel and
as such, it affects everything I do and say in
regards to Nova Roman discussions.

MAF: I myself think that we should use *both* self-concepts - and do
so in a constructive and reasonable way.

1. From the standpoint of being a membership organisation
incorporated under New Hampshire law, we ought to remember that we
are in cold fact and the opinion of the world exactly that. And it is
in many ways natural for us to function that way, as well as legally
required. We hold no sovereign territory recognised by even one
macronation. This gives us advantages, of course, such as the
protection of New Hampshire and U.S. laws against discrimination or
if an officer steals our organisational funds.

2. From the standpoint of being a micronation, we give ourselves the
chance to each belong to a second nation which unites us weird Roman
types around the world in a virtual place of our own. It has a
different atmosphere from a mere club. It sets a higher standard for
us in terms of justice and concern for the individual, it perhaps
makes a better home for our gods, and it might look more logical from
the standpoint of having the institutions of a State - the Roman
Republic - as our administrative form.

Of course both concepts can also be used wrongly: thinking of us as
a mere society might trivialise us more than need be, whereas any
kind of nationalism can become a nasty frenzy and excuse for
arrogance against minorities within and outsiders without if people
whip it up to be.

Let us continue with Oppius' analysis:

So, using this perspective as a point of reference,
I can say how I personally see certain issues. In
general:

1-Nations require basic things from its citizens.
These things are not based on convenience, or
minimization of the 'hassle factor.'

2-Nations have immigration policies.

3-Nations have taxation systems to maintain themselves.

4-Nations employ all manners of officials to
attend to the business of managing a nation.

MAF: Exactly. Nations give their citizens a lot of hassle, they are
usually rather arrogant, and they delight in bureaucracy. In Nova
Roma we have managed to minimise these things in a wonderful way
thanks to internet technology, and build a place where red tape and
hassle are at a minimum. Imitating macronations *in their worst
aspects* in order to feel "nation-like" strikes me as being exactly
the wrong course of action to take in our micronational development.
Moving to take more advantage of the internet and the freedom, low
costs, and informality it offers, combined perhaps with the freedom
and informality of small face-to-face groupings united by that
internet organisation, we would have a Nova Roma far superior to one
investigating, taxing and pressuring every citizen into the ground.

Oppius:

So, what are some facets of a club/hobby/organization:

1-Easy to join (typically, but depends on the club.)
Might just fill out a post card or a web form, send
in a check or use a credit card and transaction
is completed.

2-Some loose dues structure, but typically a per annum
payment of some variety.

3-Some trinket for joining: badge/newsletter.

4-Easy to leave -no strings attached. (typically.)

5-Typically, no heavy obligations towards other
members.

Again I could go on, but will not at this time
for reasons stated.

Now, to address an assumption in your letter
Gnaeus; you seem (I emphasize seem as this
is only my interpretation of your words)
to believe that those that favor an actual
Nation hood, or a more formalized structure
are trying to do so for the sole purpose
of keeping people away or 'weeding out.'

To put another perspective on the recent
'snail mail' vs. 'Internet' debate, I have seen
it said that people would never join an organization
that used snail mail, or that they personally
disliked it. Well, as one of the advocates of
utilizing snail mail as a possible component of
the citizenship process let me say for the record
that I too dislike it. In fact, I *HATE* it.

It has nothing to do with like/dislike. It has
to do with National citizenship, just like my
macronation is going to make me do something
uncomfortable when involving a matter of
identity. -For example, I'd LOVE to be able
to renew say my driver's license 'online,' or
be able to fax a photo to someone and say 'oh
yes, it's really me.' Does a little hassle
prevent the millions of immigrants from trying
to join my macronational country? No. They
do it willingly, because it's what they want.
Just as my forbearers did. -They risked life
and limb, fought in wars and gladly went through
all sort of inconvenience, far greater than
anything anyone would ever be asked for
here.

MAF: Now advocating what you hate just because macronations do that
is really perverse in my estimation. A faceless macronational
government does not control things here; WE do! And we can act
towards each other with more trust, sympathy, and consideration than
our macronations treat us. So, let's do it!

And in fact, even macronational governments are putting ever more on
line, including tax payment in some places. Nor do they completely
ignore their public opinion: why is military conscription abolished
or being phased out in so many Western countries which once had it,
if not because macronational governments have been forced by their
populations to scale down on demands made on the citizens that were
burdensome and not demonstrably necessary?

But big mistakes are happening in this discussion due to the use of
he word "nation" for three things: (1) macronations and (2) landed
micronations and our own (3) internet-based micronation.

We are an internet-based micronation:

1) Macronations have sovereign territory. Landed micronations do too.
We do not. You cannot live here physically.

2) Macronations have economies which produce things, offer people
jobs, and can be taxed by the State. Landed micronations do too. One
could argue that we produce coins and flags (albeit not on our
non-existent territory), but basically this does not apply to us
either.

3) Macronations have armed and/or police forces whereby to assert
their State will by force and violence. So do landed micronations. We
do not.

4) Macronations, if developed, make some provisions for social
welfare in terms of social insurance, health care, education, etc. So
do landed micronations. We do not, although admittedly some of our
activity is educational.

We are *different* from even a landed micronation like San Marino or
Andorra which has a bit of sovereign land, not to mention a
full-scale macronation. We are, in fact, more like a membership
organisation chartered under macronational law.

I think that we should glory in being one of the first rather
serious primarily internet-based micronations. Existence in the
internet is not unreal as some seem to feel. We are real people here.
Manipulating our most human tool - language - we can hurt and make
glad, help or frustrate one another here. We can practise political
skills here, learn and teach here, make friends and enemies here,
worship our gods here. To be an internet-based nation is not a
disadvantage, but an advantage in many ways:

1) We can live without an immigration policy (sensu Oppiano). There
are no jobs here or a place of physical freedom to attract those who
love not Rome, and those who love Rome can always have a place here
without overpopulation of our virtual land or taking away anyone's
job.

2) We can live with an absolute minimum of bureaucracy and red tape
because we can do everything on the net and many necessary functions
of a macronational state do not apply here.

3) We can run a very low-budget operation that does not really
require taxes.

In other words, we are not being limited to an undesirable status
because of being an internet nation, but are enjoying many advantages
because of it. That fact deserves the serious consideration of all of
us.

Now in the following paragraph Oppius admits that we are not even a
landed micronation, but an internet micronation:

Now, *yes* -I know NR is not quite the same thing
and we're not offering a whole bunch of physical
benefits yet as others have pointed out. But, we
are going to get there one day, assuming we
go the direction of 'nation.'

MAF; We *are*? That we may someday *own* a headquarters building or a
temple is highly believable and even probable. That we will succeed
in actually liberating a piece of territory from the control of other
nations, who are always very jealous of it, is certainly much less
probable and certainly very long-range. I might suggest waiting until
it is feasible and imminent rather than behaving as if it were
already accomplished.

Because, what is necessary and desirable for an internet-based
micronation and what is necessary and desirable for a landed
micronation are different. Nobody doubts that we are internet based
at present or that we will be for some time, despite our arranging of
face-to-face meetings and local groups of our people *in their
macronations*. During this period, does it not make more sense to
have policies suitable for what we actually are?

Oppius continues:

If we go the way of club/hobby/organization,
or a hybrid approach, then certainly let's make
it as easy as possible, fill our roles with everyone
we can and become a chat board with some maybe
small dues attached. -This is perfectly fine
as well, but of course; I'm going to take it a
lot less seriously because clubs are clubs
and nations are nations.

As a nation, we can be 'Internet-enabled,' versus
'Internet-centric.' Definitely a key point of view
in the business world and I don't for a moment
suggest that we not have our strong Internet presence
and the accompanying advantages that technology
brings with it.

MAF: I am sure that neither Oppius nor most of us would like to
disable our internet presence. But for now we *are* internet based,
and should adapt our policies, laws, procedures, and thinking to that
central reality (as we mostly have been doing). And we should not
despise the fact that our central basis is in the most modern,
flexible, affordable, fast, and innovative means of communication
known to Man. The internet is a *good* place to be. And it is a new
*kind* of place to be. Cyberspace is a real godsend to a micronation,
not something second rate.

Now, suppose that we had a sovereign territory somewhere in the
world. Most likely it would be thousands of miles from where any
given citizen of our Respublica lives, and likely enough on another
continent or a difficult-to-reach island. Most of us would never see
it in person, and only a small fraction of us would live there.

It might be nice for our internet-based micronation to possess such
a territory. It would be a nice place to put our main server if
communications connections were adequate. But would we want those who
lived there to take over control from the real Populus Novoromanus,
which lives in diaspora around the world? Hardly! If we acquire the
ability to acquire sovereign territory (or even a biggish piece of
non-sovereign territory in a decent place and with infrastructure and
physical improvements), it will be because we have a gigantic
internet-linked population all over the world which has supported the
acquisition with money, interest and effort. This People will not
cease to exist or wish to have its political rights taken away just
because we have acquired land in one little spot of the globe,
however dear the idea is to us.

And what if we acquired *two* physical centres, say in Saskatchewan
and in Rome (Italy) - how would they be most closely linked - if not
by the internet?! We are more than just internet-enabled. We are in
fact internet *based*, and it is a very good thing.

Oppius continues:

Let me further state as I've done before -my way
is not necessarily any more correct than anyone
else's.

MAF: And to think! When I stated in a former post that this was a
matter of personal value judgement, Oppius could only make a
sarcastic comment about me simply because I expressed my opinion.
Here he says the same thing that I did. Very good!

He continues:

But perhaps in one of our many overly
generic Nova Roma polls, we could simply ask:

Is Nova Roma a:

Nation
Club
Undecided.

MAF: That would be overly simple indeed! I for one hold that we are
*an internet-based nation*. Which is neither a landed macronation
with its bureaucracy and suspicious concerns about citizens and
foreigners, nor just a club.

But whatever we are, we are not going to be more like a "nation" in
any positive, constructive, humanly-desirable sense of the word on
account of introducing old-fashioned snail-mail procedures and
paranoia about supposed people who like us well enough to become
citizens twice. :-)

Let us rejoice at being on the internet, taking it as our home, and
dispensing with the necessarily exclusivistic concerns of nations
limited by their land areas and bearing the heavy burden of catering
to economic interests. A real nation today does not have to be like
the customary image of a nation, and certainly it does not have to
imitate practices outdated in themselves or suitable only for
territorial States.

Valete!
_________________________________________________
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, Aedilis Plebeius Novae Romae
Amicus Dignitatis; Scriba Censorius
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Moderator Indicis protoprovincialis NR_Venediae
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
____________________________________________________
Memento Idus Martias - non omnino bene Respublica se habet.
(Remember the Ides of March - it is not all well with the Republic.)
____________________________________________________

All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph in the world is for
enough good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
___________________________________________________


Subject:	[novaroma] Fwd: [NRHispania] RV: Romae Laudatio
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 09:04:02 -0700 (PDT)

--- Laietanus <laietanus@--------> wrote:
> To: "NRHispania" <NRHispania@-------->
> From: "Laietanus" <laietanus@-------->
> Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 13:36:30 +0200
> Reply-to: NRHispania@--------
> Subject: [NRHispania] RV: Romae Laudatio
>
>
> ----- Mensaje original -----
> De: Laietanus
> Para: Nova Roma
> Enviado: s�bado 21 de abril de 2001 13:32
> Asunto: Romae Laudatio
>
>
> POPULUS NOVAROMANUS HISPANIAE NOVAROMANI S.P.D.
>
> I.O.M.S
> ROMANI HISPANIAE SVMVS
> ROMA IN VITA NOSTRA ET IN IVRE NOSTRE PERVIVET
> ROMA IN CIVITATIS ET IN VIIS NOSTRIS PERVIVET
> IN LARIBVS NOSTRIBVS,
> IN LINGUIS NOSTRIS,
> IN OCULIS NOSTRIS ET
> IN CORDIBVS NOTRIS
> ROMA NOBISCVM HODIE VIVET
> ROMA AETERNA MATER ET LVX SEMPER ERIT
>
> A.D. XI KALENDAS MAIAE - MMDCCLIV A.V.C.
> FESTIVITAS PALILIARUM
>
> CIVES HISPANIAE - Gnaeus Salix Astur, Matritis / Marcus Salix
> Davianus, Barcino / Gnaeus Salix Galaicus, Brigantium / Lucius
> Minicius Laietanus, Barcino / Spurius Aelius Baeticus Malacitanus,
> Matritis / Marcus Minicius Rufus, Matritis / Caius Valerius
> Hispanicus Sparticus / Marcus Salix Vigilius, Canarias
>
> �------------------------------------------�
> Consagrado a Iuppiter Optimo Maximo
>
> Somos romanos de Hispania
> Roma pervive en nuestra vida y en nuestra ley
> Roma pervive en nuestras ciudades y en nuestros caminos
> En nuestras casas,
> en nuestras lenguas,
> en nuestros ojos y
> en nuestros corazones
> Roma vive hoy con nosotros.
> Roma ser� siempre madre y luz eterna.
>
> 21 de Abril de 2001.
> Festividad de las Palilia
>
> CIVES HISPANIAE - Gnaeus Salix Astur, Matritis / Marcus Salix
> Davianus, Barcino / Gnaeus Salix Galaicus, Brigantium / Lucius
> Minicius Laietanus, Barcino / Spurius Aelius Baeticus Malacitanus,
> Matritis / Marcus Minicius Rufus, Matritis / Caius Valerius
> Hispanicus Sparticus / Marcus Salix Vigilius, Canarias
> �------------------------------------------�
>
> Dedicated to Iuppiter Optimus Maximus
>
> We are Romans from Hispania
> Rome still lives in our lifes and in our laws
> Rome still lives in our cities and in our roads
> in our homes,
> in our tongues,
> in our eyes and
> in our hearts.
> Rome lives on through us.
> Rome will always be mother and eternal light.
>
> April the 21st, 2001.
> Festivity of the Parilia.
>
> CIVES HISPANIAE - Gnaeus Salix Astur, Matritis / Marcus Salix
> Davianus, Barcino / Gnaeus Salix Galaicus, Brigantium / Lucius
> Minicius Laietanus, Barcino / Spurius Aelius Baeticus Malacitanus,
> Matritis / Marcus Minicius Rufus, Matritis / Caius Valerius
> Hispanicus Sparticus / Marcus Salix Vigilius, Canarias
> �------------------------------------------�
>
>
>
>

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Inclusion vs. Exclusion
From:	"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 18:06:39 +0200

Salvete omnes!

About the identity verification and taxes that has been discussed in
this thread:

My humble opinion is that online registration should be kept as is. I
don't agree that it should be done through snail mail, because
1) it's less interactive
2) it's longer
3) would turn away potential citizens (me included).

Let's see the first year of membership as sort of a trial membership.
This is enough time to see if you are at the right place, if you like it
and if you feel like contributing. My own thought when I discovered the
website (I was referred to from a friend) was: neat stuff, why not join?
Filling the form was just plain easy and then I was happy. If I had to
send out a snail mail, where ever that would have been addressed to
(overseas, into a neighboring country or even in my own), I would
certainly not have done it. Certainly not. Why? simply because I was
going like "why not?" "let's try it" and not "I've been dreaming of
that, I have to join".

Now during my first 2 weeks (or even not yet that much), I changed my
point of view. Now I'm thinking this is what I have been dreaming of
since age 11. I can say that because I visited more of the site, I've
joined some of the mailing lists, I've contacted several people from my
own regio and so on. Now I'm in it! For some people maybe it will take
more than 2 weeks, but actually if they don't say they love it and they
want to remain in novaroma after one trial year, I don't know why they
still would be here.

So I'd say, let's vote a legs that defines this trial year. That
sometime during this year, the appliant should prove his identity (and I
would say to the legatus of his regio, and not somewhere far away, to
the censors. The legatus will, at the end of the year, send all the
stuff to the central administration for archiving purposes. Those who
failed to send a copy of whatever document that proves their identity
would be excluded from novaroma (I don't know what modality we should
choose for this, but probably a reminder should be sent out before this
measure to be taken).

As for the taxes, I think the senatusconsultum I've read recently is
very good. During one year, a newcomer doesn't have to pay taxes (that
joins my idea of trial year). If one doesn't want to pay taxes should
not be excluded either, like I read in the senatusconsultum, however he
would loose the right to be elected, and of course, he would be moved
into a huge tribe and a huge century, so his vote counts less.

About the amount of the tax: it was said that it should be around 12$
for wealthy countries, 6$ for less wealthy countries. While I think the
12$ are OK for the first ones, 6$ is far too much for the other ones.
Think of countries where people earn 80-100$ per month. Consider not
only that 6$ would be a great slice of the cake, but also that these
80-100$ are NOT ENOUGH to live decently. Would you cut down your food
expenses, just to be a proud citizen of Novaroma? I wouldn't.

Oh, and of course, sending US money inside the US is not a big deal.
There are plenty of ways: checks, bank-transfer, dollar bills inside a
letter... I know countries that _open_ all letters coming from wealthy
countries or going there, just in order to see if there is no money
inside. And consider that international money orders sometimes cost 50$,
even if you send only 6$. So we are talking of a far more complex thing
than just: oh, that's the price of a pizza! I know some countries where
a pizza costs 10 cents...

That's why I suggest people from such kind of countries should be
exempted from paying taxes, like in our macronations poor people don't
have to pay them either.

I know this is getting a really long letter, but I just had an idea. Why
not ask the paterfamilias/materfamilias to pay for his own familia?
That's his role in the society, isn't it? And then it's up to him to see
how much he wants to take from his family members, he should know them
better than anyone, shouldn't he? This was a quick thought, maybe you
won't agree, and maybe I will also sleep over it to find a good solution
(I'm also a paterfamilias, so don't think I said it just to escape from
paying taxes ;-) )

Ok, that would be it for today.

Valete bene,
--
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
Friburgii Helvetiorum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] My support to Taxes
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:14:05 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Gnae Salix,

> What I am against is that citizens should be REQUIRED to pay taxes in
> order to be citizens. This would reduce Nova Roma's growth and could
> deny Nova Roma the help from many prospective citizens. I would prefer
> that they were "downgraded" somehow, or that taxpayers were otherwise
> encouraged without "punishing" non-taxpayers.

I agree. Let us not take away the citizenship of those who do not pay.
Instead, we should use the existing systems of Centuries and Tribes to
reward those who do pay. Non-paying citizens should be placed in the
Urban tribes and the fifth class of centuries; paying citizens should
be in the Rural tribes and in the first four classes of centuries.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] 21st of April 753BC...
From:	Piparskeggr Ullarsson <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:11:09 -0500

Ave,

Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix wrote:
>
> Salvete,
>
> I hope people don't forget today's date: it's the 21st of April,
> the legendary date of the founding of Rome.
> (excision)
>
> Any comments?
>
> Valete
>
> =====
> Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
> civis Novae Romae
>

A poem I wrote a few months ago.

-Genesis Romana-
VI Ides Ianuarius 2753 AUC

The Hand Of Mars Reached Down One Day
To Choose A Tribe To Call His Own
By Seven Hills In Rustic Huts
Amidst Their Herds They Made Their Lives

A Latin Folk Both Proud And Strong
Quirinius Inspired Them
To Scale The Mounts And Build Thereon
This Small, Rude Start Grew Into More

A Foreign Folk Became Their Kings
All Things Went Well For Long And Long
More Gods Were Met Rites Learned, Shrines Built
More Ways Came In A Dark Seed Fell

And Bitter Grew Their Hearts To Them
Farmers, Herdsmen, Craftsmen Took Sword
This People Fought Threw Off The Yoke
Of Foreign King Took Future's Reins

This Hardy Folk In Forum Spoke
They Made Their Law The Orders Set
By Gens And Tribe By Deed And Word
Set Hand To Fate Created Rome

--
===========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis, Benedicte Omnes!
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Cives, Paterfamilias Gens Ulleria


Subject:	[novaroma] Taxes, keeping citizens and implementing a certain limited controll
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 18:28:52 +0200

Salvete Omnes!

I am, and have been for some time, convinced that we need taxes/dues in
Nova Roma. I don't want our officials to use their own money to finance
work beneficial to us all. We should introduce taxes, but we should do
it in such a way that it will not exclude those who don't have a
sufficiently large income.

We have discussions about what will and what won't cause people to
depart from Nova Roma, but when it comes to taxes, it is my firm belief
that we can find a system that doesn't have this effect.

But there is one thing I want to avoid, and building a large and
cumbersome bureaucracy for all of this. I say let's look for simple
solutions, preferably easy to implement for our officials. I don't want
our officials to spend too much of their valuable time performing tasks
which wouldn't be necessary if organized differently.

I will now tell you how I feel about taxes, votes, passive citizens and
control. This is how I would like to have it!

1. Nova Roma should have an average central tax ($12 in $ or other
currencies) as well as a provincial tax of no more than the same sum,
collected annually.
2. These taxes should be collected by the Governor of each province, or his
appointed representatives. The central tax should be sent to the central
Aerarium by the Governor or his representatives.
3. A new citizen should not have to pay any taxes during their first
year as citizen. Because of this, all new citizens should be placed in
the "head count" century and the urban tribes. As new citizens they
will, however, be allowed to stand for office according to the
legislation of Nova Roma.
4. Those who, after the first year, refuse to pay taxes, should be
placed in the Urban tribes and a century for the "head count" until taxes and
back-taxes have been paid in full.
5. Those who have expenditures on the central level should receive
compensation from the central funds.
6. Those who have expenditures on the provincial level should receive
compensation from the provincial funds.
7. Those who don't vote should be placed into the Urban tribes and the
century for the "head count".
8. Those who don't pay their taxes should not be allowed to stand for
office. Taxes in this case means any part of the taxes according to the
rules in 9.
9. To be counted as a tax-payer, some form of tax must be paid by the
citizen in question. Those who can't pay full taxes, should apply at the
Governor's "office" for an exception of up to three quarters of the
total central tax. It should be up to the Governor or his appointed
representatives to decide who would be eligible for an exception. You
may be eligible for an exception if you fulfill one or more of the
following requirements:
A/ You are a student
B/ You are currently unemployed
C/ You are a citizen of a country with low GNP per capita
D/ You are retired
E/ You are, according to your local legislation, poor

The Governor could decide to remit up to the whole provincial tax. This
means that all citizens would have to pay at least $3. That is, in my
opinion, very reasonable. You could skip paying altogether, but there
would be consequences.

In this system there will be certain punishments for those who don't pay
the required amount of taxes and for those who don't vote.

Is that democratic? Well, in some countries the rule is that you have to
vote or pay taxes to be "accepted", while in others it isn't. I think it
is fair though! Is it democratic not to participate in the electorial
process of a nation you have willingly entered? I don't think it is. Are
there enough considerations allowed for poor or students and the like? I
think there are, although I'm sure there are those among you who will
disagree.

What do we gain from this system?
1. We will get in touch with most citizens. WE won't drive anyone away!
If they don't like the system they can stay and fight it, or they can
leave, if they don't think it's worth fighting for.
2. We will get a stable income, as it is my belief that most would want to
pay.
3. Those who don't pay taxes or vote (the passive) would still be here,
and we would get the chance to convince them, in time, to pay or vote.
4.For persons to cheat with multiple citizenships and so on, would be
close to pointless, and our chance to find them would be higher. We will
also get a certain control over who is citizen.
5. No one would be totally excluded and I think that we would have a
system that kept the moral incentives to pay/vote at a high level, and
the "punishments" at a reasonable level.

I can see that we will have to organize the central tax-collecting in
some way, but we still need a provincial "bureaucracy" for this and
other purposes, and I think it can be kept at a reasonable level.

This is my proposal! This is the main goals I will aim for. Of course,
there could, maybe should, be adjustments.

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
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"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
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************************************************
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************************************************
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************************************************
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Subject:	[novaroma] Basilica (was Re: Taxes)
From:	"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 18:28:16 +0200

Salve Luci,

> Some of you may be aware that I'm working on a Web

> Browser for Nova Roma, and may have even tried the

> preview I posted.

Oh boy! Gratias maximas! I wasn't aware of that. Do you know how much
Mozilla means for me? Equally as much as Nova Roma.

<snippage>

> That was a

> fairly small file that required a download of Mozilla

> (cost absorbed by AOL), but the final release will

> have too many features for me to be able to piggyback

> a patch on top of Mozilla.

Maybe giving the alternative to just download a theme (and not the
entire browser would be a good idea. I'll write you privately on this issue.

> It will be about a 8

> Megabyte file, too big for including in Yahoo groups

> files.

<another snippage>

Valete bene

--
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
Friburgii Helvetiorum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] My support to Taxes
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 16:31:24 -0000

>From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] My support to Taxes
>Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:14:05 -0500 (CDT)
>
>Salvete Marce Octavi et al:

*****This is the approach I favour the most, with respect to dealing with
nonpaying citizens.

Vale,
Pompeia Cornelia

(snip)
>
>I agree. Let us not take away the citizenship of those who do not pay.
>Instead, we should use the existing systems of Centuries and Tribes to
>reward those who do pay. Non-paying citizens should be placed in the
>Urban tribes and the fifth class of centuries; paying citizens should
>be in the Rural tribes and in the first four classes of centuries.
>
>Vale, Octavius.

>
>--
>M. Octavius Germanicus
>Propraetor, Lacus Magni
>Curator Araneum et Senator
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Office Suite
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 12:31:42 EDT

Salve

You raise an interesting point. Nova Roma should not buy software for
each new magistrate. Nova Roma should buy the software that magistrates
need (such as Excel) and transfer it from previous magistrates to newly
elected magistrates.

For instance, the Censores and Rogatores apparently use Excel. Nova Roma
should own licenses to enough copies of Excel to meet those needs. When a
new Censor or Rogator is elected, they should receive the state copy of
Excel from the person they are replacing in office. It wouold be
incumbent upon the outgoing magistrate to delete the state software from
their hard drive after the transfer, lest we incur the wrath of the
Redmond deity.

Mac owners are a special case (aren't we?). It is good that there is a
Mac version of Excel, but I don't think Nova Roma should initially try to
maintain a duplicate set of software for Mac. Perhaps if a magistrate is
elected who uses a real computer ;o) and doesn't have Excel on it
already, a special arrangement could be made at that time. This could be
for the state to purchase one state copy for Mac, or for the magistrate
to purchase and donate the copy (or to keep it for themselves), or for
some "angel(s)" to donate funds to purchase a state copy.

We are now talking about why we must have a system of taxes. Last I
looked, a single copy of Excel was over US$400. To equip four Rogatores
and two Censores with it, you're looking at well over US$2000, which is,
I think, more than Nova Roma has in the treasury at this time. One cost
cutting solution would be to buy several copies of an older version on
eBay, but this still clearly illustrates why the state must have a system
of financial support beyond donations and token royalties.

Thus, while debates about software (or hardware) preferences may not be
desireable here, discussion of software needs is directly tied to the
current topic of concern - TAXES.

I hope the Consules will soon present a tax proposal to the Senate.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

On 4/21/01 12:50 AM lsicinius@-------- (lsicinius@--------) wrote:

>
>LOL
>This symbol ;o) is a wink, and signifies that there is some levity
>intended in a post. There are several in my post.
>
>That post was a rather light hearted view of something you will have
>to get used to once the badly needed taxes are imposed. Sugestions
>from citizens that Nova Roma spend the money wisely.
>
>Part of the reason that taxes are needed is we can't expect our
>magistrates to continue to pay the costs of holding office. To do so
>severly limits the number of Citizens who will be able to afford to
>stand for Office. If you have an Office Suite on your Computer, then
>by all means use the Suite that's allready there.
>
>My post was inspired by our Rogator, A. Cato, who mentioned that he
>had to AQUIRE Excell after being elected. It was happenstance that
>another post that I hadn't read yet also mentoned the same product,
>and it wasn't aimed at Gaia.
>
>There will be people elected to offices who don't have the software
>needed to perform thier duties installed on thier computer, and in
>these cases, IMHO Nova Roma should provide the needed software. To do
>otherwise puts us right back to limiting office to those who have
>higher incomes.
>
>For US $39.00 Nova Roma can provide any new magistrate (except Mac
>users) needing an office suite with the software to perform thier
>duties. How much will it cost us prospective taxpayers to do the same
>with software from that Redmond Company? (That I honestly admited my
>bias against)
>
>As Nova Roma grows she is going to need to aquire more and more
>software for internal use by her officers and she should ALLWAYS get
>that software at the best possible price. I'm not intrested in
>starting a software war, I'm intrested in starting a price war, and
>that is a war that MS loses as far as Office Suits goes.
>
>L. Sicinius Drusus
>

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Romae Laudatio
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 12:31:44 EDT

On 4/21/01 6:32 AM Laietanus (enric.ferrer@--------) wrote:

SNIP
>
>We are Romans from Hispania
>Rome still lives in our lifes and in our laws
>Rome still lives in our cities and in our roads
>in our homes,
>in our tongues,
>in our eyes and
>in our hearts.
>Rome lives on through us.
SNIP
>
>CIVES HISPANIAE - Gnaeus Salix Astur, Matritis / Marcus Salix Davianus,
>Barcino / Gnaeus Salix Galaicus, Brigantium / Lucius Minicius Laietanus,
>Barcino / Spurius Aelius Baeticus Malacitanus, Matritis / Marcus Minicius
>Rufus, Matritis / Caius Valerius Hispanicus Sparticus / Marcus Salix
>Vigilius, Canarias
> .------------------------------------------.

She may not live much longer if you don't find some women in Hispania!

;-)

Where are the Sabines when we need them?

LOL

L. Sergius Aust.

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


Subject:	[novaroma] Announcement of Cerealia Winner
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 18:45:32 +0200

M Apollonius Formosanus Aedilis Plebeius Novae Romae
omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

On the occasion of the Cerealia just past and of the Anniversary of
the Foundation of Rome, the Aediles proclamed public contests in the
arts and sciences to be held with the co�peration of the Sodalitas
Musarum.

The winners in the Sodalitas Musarum phase have already been
announced by the Coryphaeus of the Sodalitas, S. Apollonius Draco.
>From these it is the responsibility of the Aediles Plebeii and the
Flamen Cerealis to adjudge the prize for the Cerealia. The Flamen,
Cn. Moravius Piscinus, having withdrawn from Nova Roma on the Ides of
March, is no longer available for the judging, wherefore we Aediles
Plebeii have performed the task alone.

I have been asked by my esteemed colleague, M. Arminius Maior, to
make the announcement of the winner. It is Lucilla Cornelia Cinna for
her poetic work "What is Love". We particularly liked it because we
felt it had a particular applicability to the Goddess (as we
interpreted it - although it might well refer to that Divinity behind
and within all our Dii Deaeque Romani) as well as addressing itself
to the fundamental human question of meaning in existence.

It was a difficult adjudication, as several other entries were very
close competitors indeed.

The Aediles Plebei would like to thank all of the participants,
congratulate all of the winners in the Sodalitas Musarum phase, and
especially to congratulate Lucilla Cornelia.

We hope that the joy and strivings and high spirits of this Contest
will prove an acceptable offering to the Goddess from the People of
Nova Roma in remembrance of the bounty of the earth which sustains us
all.

We now are looking forward to the statement of the Aediles Curules,
whose duty it is to announce the winner from the list for the
occasion of the Anniversary of the Founding of Rome.

Dii Deaeque nos bene ament!

Valete!

_________________________________________________
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, Aedilis Plebeius Novae Romae
Amicus Dignitatis; Scriba Censorius
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Moderator Indicis protoprovincialis NR_Venediae
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
____________________________________________________

All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph in the world is for
enough good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
___________________________________________________


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Office Suite
From:	"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 18:59:16 +0200

lsicinius@-------- wrote:

> I strongly recomend that Nova Roma adapt Sun's Staroffice instead of

> using Microsoft's virus laden office product. It has most of the

> features of MSO, can import Most MSO files, and the price is a lot better.

>

> FREE!

I strongly agree! We really should take things that are free instead of
paying for less good ones. I'm using StarOffice on a daily basis and I
am training the Microsoft Office Suite. So I know both of them like my
pockent and believe me: StarOffice is much, much better!

Salvete!

--
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
Friburgii Helvetiorum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] 21st of April 753BC...
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 16:59:38 -0000

Salve:

Nice poem, Veni :)

Po

>From: Piparskeggr Ullarsson <catamount_grange@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] 21st of April 753BC...
>Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:11:09 -0500
>
>Ave,
>
>Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix wrote:
> >
> > Salvete,
> >
> > I hope people don't forget today's date: it's the 21st of April,
> > the legendary date of the founding of Rome.
> > (excision)
> >
> > Any comments?
> >
> > Valete
> >
> > =====
> > Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
> > civis Novae Romae
> >
>
>A poem I wrote a few months ago.
>
>-Genesis Romana-
>VI Ides Ianuarius 2753 AUC
>
>The Hand Of Mars Reached Down One Day
>To Choose A Tribe To Call His Own
>By Seven Hills In Rustic Huts
>Amidst Their Herds They Made Their Lives
>
>A Latin Folk Both Proud And Strong
>Quirinius Inspired Them
>To Scale The Mounts And Build Thereon
>This Small, Rude Start Grew Into More
>
>A Foreign Folk Became Their Kings
>All Things Went Well For Long And Long
>More Gods Were Met Rites Learned, Shrines Built
>More Ways Came In A Dark Seed Fell
>
>And Bitter Grew Their Hearts To Them
>Farmers, Herdsmen, Craftsmen Took Sword
>This People Fought Threw Off The Yoke
>Of Foreign King Took Future's Reins
>
>This Hardy Folk In Forum Spoke
>They Made Their Law The Orders Set
>By Gens And Tribe By Deed And Word
>Set Hand To Fate Created Rome
>
>
>--
>===========================================
>In Amicus sub Fidelis, Benedicte Omnes!
>- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
> Cives, Paterfamilias Gens Ulleria

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Office Suite
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 10:26:09 -0700

Salve,

In all this talk of taxes let us not forget that taxes are not our only
possible revenue source. In the software example, for instance, our newly
acquired NPC (Non-profit corp.) status could be of use. The software giant
that resides in my Province (Why won't Bill return my calls? :->) could be
approached for a grant of goods rather than currency. I'm about to receive
some books on grant writing and could make that my first try.
And let's not forget the Ordo Equester as a source of income. If we put some
effort into international business ventures utilizing each other as
contacts, would we be able to build a level of income that could be shared
(taxed)?
As a small example (fund raising between two Provinces) my tax attorney
told me about a comic book he used to follow while stationed in Europe in
the Army. It's called Asterix and Obelisk (?) and it's available in (I
think) French and English. During a recent websearch he found copies for
sale for $20 US. If this book is available and we find there is a market for
it here in the US, then the Province where they are printed could sell them
to our Province for a profit, we could up the price and resell them and
still undercut the $20 price. Both Provinces could add to their coffers.
Again, just an example.
This commerce could be a way we could help those cives who reside in
economically depressed areas. Interested individuals could form partnerships
and help each other better their financial standing while providing a
taxable income base for the Nation.
On a personal note, I'd be open to listen to ideas about this kind of
commerce myself if anyone else is interested. If not in cooperation with
others then alone I plan to find a way to join the commerce in the Macellum.
I strongly suggest this to all.
If some of us don't have the resources to pay, we as a group should seek
ways to help. This can be done through commerce. The days of conquering with
sword and shield are gone. We'll have to build this nation on the
battlefield of business.
So let's not lament on how some can't pay, let's help them find a way they
can. It's as easy to make excuses why we can't do a thing as it is to find
excuses why we can.

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason
for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
----- Original Message -----
From: <lsicinius@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 10:50 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Office Suite

> --- In novaroma@--------, "Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@--------> wrote:
> > Salve L. Sicini;
> >
> > Yes, StarOffice has been suggested as an option
> > before. And yes, we have noted your bias.
> > Btw, you might also note that Gaia is
> > an accredited expert in Excel, something
> > which no doubt took some time and effort
> > (having a few certs myself in various
> > technical disciplines,)perhaps
> > deserving more than your curt dismissal.
> >
> > Do we really want to go down the
> > comparative software road on the mainlist?
> > Me thinks not. Staroffice is a good
> > alternative for those that choose to use
> > it. I've used it myself on many a platform
> > and its has its strengths and weaknesses
> > like everything else. It is not a panacea,
> > it is not a savior to the world's 'office
> > suite' needs.
> >
> > That being said, for the record -if someone
> > does not have an office suite product, Staroffice
> > is a nice low/no cost alternative. If
> > you do have an office suite, use what you're good
> > at, use what your comfortable with.
> > Software wars are something we don't need
> > on the main list.
> >
> > Bene vale,
> > Oppius
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: lsicinius@-------- [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
> > Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 9:16 PM
> > To: novaroma@--------
> > Subject: [novaroma] Office Suite
> >
> >
> > Salvete,
> >
> > Ya'll are using Excell, etc.
> > MS Office?
> >
> > UGH :oP
> >
> > <snipped>
>
> LOL
> This symbol ;o) is a wink, and signifies that there is some levity
> intended in a post. There are several in my post.
>
> That post was a rather light hearted view of something you will have
> to get used to once the badly needed taxes are imposed. Sugestions
> from citizens that Nova Roma spend the money wisely.
>
> Part of the reason that taxes are needed is we can't expect our
> magistrates to continue to pay the costs of holding office. To do so
> severly limits the number of Citizens who will be able to afford to
> stand for Office. If you have an Office Suite on your Computer, then
> by all means use the Suite that's allready there.
>
> My post was inspired by our Rogator, A. Cato, who mentioned that he
> had to AQUIRE Excell after being elected. It was happenstance that
> another post that I hadn't read yet also mentoned the same product,
> and it wasn't aimed at Gaia.
>
> There will be people elected to offices who don't have the software
> needed to perform thier duties installed on thier computer, and in
> these cases, IMHO Nova Roma should provide the needed software. To do
> otherwise puts us right back to limiting office to those who have
> higher incomes.
>
> For US $39.00 Nova Roma can provide any new magistrate (except Mac
> users) needing an office suite with the software to perform thier
> duties. How much will it cost us prospective taxpayers to do the same
> with software from that Redmond Company? (That I honestly admited my
> bias against)
>
> As Nova Roma grows she is going to need to aquire more and more
> software for internal use by her officers and she should ALLWAYS get
> that software at the best possible price. I'm not intrested in
> starting a software war, I'm intrested in starting a price war, and
> that is a war that MS loses as far as Office Suits goes.
>
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] My support to Taxes
From:	Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 10:36:48 -0700 (PDT)

> I want to say that I am totally in favour of
> taxation and that I intend
> to pay an annual tax (at least, as long as it goes
> around 12-25$; I
> wouldn't be able to afford much more!).

I feel exacly the same, though I am in a slightly
different consideration. From summer to Christmas I
could give much more than $12 to $25 dollars. But the
rest of the time I may even have difficulty giving
that much.

>
> What I am against is that citizens should be
> REQUIRED to pay taxes in
> order to be citizens. This would reduce Nova Roma's
> growth and could
> deny Nova Roma the help from many prospective
> citizens. I would prefer
> that they were "downgraded" somehow, or that
> taxpayers were otherwise
> encouraged without "punishing" non-taxpayers.

I am for downgrading non-taxpayers (the "no taxation
without representation" theory ought to work both
ways, and would be well used if applied here. And if
this is what was used to get people to pay taxes I
doubt that it would have any effect on our number of
citizens. Those who are not dedicated to Nova Roma
enough to vote wouldn't pay taxes, those who are would
pay taxes. Perhaps I am wrong, but I doubt it.
However, for the same reason, I am very much against a
registration fee. I very much do care about Nova
Roma, but I must say that even I would have considered
not applying for citizenship had I known a fee would
have been required. I would also like to add that I
am not in favor of making taxes be paid at only a
certain time of the year. As I stated above I could
only pay at a certain time of the year.

Valete optime :->!

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] 21st of April 753BC...
From:	"C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 14:36:26 -0400

Salvete,

Today is known as Parilia, and is a festival to the Pales and a celebration
of the founding of Roma. The following text is from the Nova Roma website
page on festivals of the Religio:

XXI Aprilis/April 21: The Parilia is both an ancient agricultural festival
sacred to Pales and the birthday of Eternal Roma Herself. The sheep-fold is
decorated with greenery and a wreath placed on its entrance. At first light
the fold is scrubbed and swept, and the sheep themselves are cleansed with
sulfur smoke. A fire is made of olive and pine wood, into which laurel
branches are thrown; their crackling is a good omen. Offerings are made of
cakes of millet, other food, and pails of milk.
A prayer is then said four times to Pales (while facing east), seeking
protection and prosperity for the shepherd and his flocks, forgiveness for
unintentional transgressions against Pales, and the warding off of wolves
and disease. The shepherd then washes his hands with dew. Milk and wine is
heated and drunk, and then he leaps through a bonfire (and possibly his
flocks as well).

The official ceremony is conducted by the Rex Sacrorum; the blood from the
sacrifices of the calves at Fordicalia is thrown into the bonfire before the
leaping commences, as well as the blood from the horse sacrificed at the
Equus in October

Happy 2754th Birthday Roma!

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus
Legatus Of Massachusetts

-----Original Message-----
From: Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix [mailto:consulromanus@--------]
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 11:09 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] 21st of April 753BC...

Salvete,

I hope people don't forget today's date: it's the 21st
of April, the legendary date of the founding of Rome.
I know this date means nothing in history because
there was never such thing as a founding of Rome on
this perticular day, but I thought it nice to be
mentioned.

So, on the 21st of April 753BC (i.e. 2754 years ago)
the legendary city of Rome was founded and the base
was settled for the future Imperium Romanum. Indeed a
glorious day for all of us Nova Romans, I think.

Any comments?

Valete

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
civis Novae Romae
____________________________

"De te autem, Catilina, cum quiescunt, probant; cum patiuntur, decernunt;
cum tacent, clamant." (M. Tullius Cicero: In Catilinam I, 20)

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gods of the Underworld
From:	SkaldElf@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 14:49:49 EDT

Ave,

Are you looking for a specific pantheon? I can send you something off-list,
if you could clarify a bit more.

Vale,
Aeternia


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Gladiator
From:	pvitruviusiulianus@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 18:50:38 -0000

On the arguments which I have seen for and against Gladiator being
sacred, I will pitch in my two sesterti.

Even though Gladiator has some good aspects (the glory of Rome and
Maximus being portrayed as a good pagan man) and bad aspects (showing
the bloodsports and coruptness of the Roman government), I don't
think that it ought to be thrown out due to its bad aspects.

Take for example the Bible, all Christians regard it as sacred
(unless there are some minorities I have not heard about). However,
many, if not most or all Christians, recognize that there are bad
aspects to it (contradictions with science, an extremly vengeful (if
not evil God, such as that protrayed in Job, giving Job a new family
after getting rid of his old one for a bet made with Satan)). So
perhaps it should be regarded as sacred.

However, I do nevertheless recognize that the facts that not all of
us are pagans and that Gladiator was not created to be a sacred movie
are good reasons to not believe that Gladiator is sacred.

Just my two sesterti.

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Office Suite
From:	Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 20:37:30 +0200

Salvete,

I agree completely to L. Sicinius! I use Staroffice at home for office work, under Linux, and in my real-life-job in office.
Cost-benefit-relation is much more better than with MSO. No problems with MSO-files opened by Staroffice. Excel- and Word-files are running
best. Even saving in xls- or doc-format makes not trouble.

Valete
Caius Flavius Diocletianus

lsicinius@-------- schrieb:

> Salvete,
>
> Ya'll are using Excell, etc.
> MS Office?
>
> UGH :oP
>
> That program is absurdly overpriced and a massive security hole (Who
> needs a Word processor that is capable of formatting your hard drive)
>
> I strongly recomend that Nova Roma adapt Sun's Staroffice instead of
> using Microsoft's virus laden office product. It has most of the
> features of MSO, can import Most MSO files, and the price is a lot better.
>
> FREE!
> (Which will save us hardworking taxpayers money) ;o)
>
> Yes, Staroffice can be downloaded for free at Suns website, or you can
> order a CD with documentation for US $39.00 which is a considerable
> savings over what Redmond charges. The only drawback is there isn't a
> Mac version yet, but hey that Redmond company dosen't offer a version
> of it's software for Linux or Solaris and Staroffice does! If you
> really want a Mac Version, download the sourcecode (GNU's General
> Public License) and build yourself a Mac Version ;o)
>
> To save on download time for those using a modem, under the license
> terms (Sun's BCL) Nova Roma can purchase 1 CD and offer it for
> instalation on EVERY magistrates computer by sending them a copy. Yes
> it's legal, not software piracy like that Redmond company's license.
>
> See http://www.sun.com/staroffice/ for details.
>
> Valete,
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A Bill Of Rights
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 14:52:43 EDT

Salve Gaius Noviodunus

Since the idea of a democracy is for the decisions to be made by the
people as a whole, for 50% of the citizens to fail to participate in the
decision-making process *IS* a failure of democracy. As a matter of fact,
it is this very failure that inevitably dooms democracy.

A democracy that fails to educate and motivate its citizens to
participate in maintaining and preserving democracy, inevitably
gravitates toward rule by special interest groups and an increasingly
narrower subset of citizens, until it evolves into oligarchy and
dictatorship.

The fact that Switzerland hasn't fallen that far yet should not give you
comfort.

However, it is also true that mandatory voting cannot solve this problem,
because educated, intelligent participation cannot be guaranteed merely
by forcing people to go to the polls and mark a ballot.

I would illustrate my points with present day examples, but many Nova
Romans are hypersensitive about their macronational politics being
brought up here, and I have enough battles in my life right now, so I
leave it to you to look around the world at how well *real* democracy is
faring. :-)

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust.

On 4/21/01 4:03 AM G. Noviodunus Ferriculus (Gaius.Noviodunus@--------)
wrote:

>Salve Legate,
>
>Adrian Gunn wrote:
>
>> I would like to point out
>
>> that I am not suggesting that civic responsibilities, such as voting,
>
>> should be required by law - but simply spelled out as an ideal that
>
>> all citizens should aspire too. Given the current state of citizen
>
>> participation in Nova Roma, I would say that we are failing as a
>
>> Democracy.
>
>
>I don't agree with you. Requiring *by law* a citizen to vote. I hope to
>live in a democracy (my macronation is Switzerland) but we don't have an
>obligation to vote. Actually, at every vote (4 times per year) we have
>*always* around 50% abstinents. And I wouldn't consider Switzerland to
>be failing as a democracy.
>
>Vale
>--
>Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
>Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
>Friburgii Helvetiorum
>

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Announcement of Cerealia Winner
From:	SkaldElf@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 15:06:13 EDT

Ave,

Congratulations to Lucilla Cornelia Cinna, the piece was wonderful! I, among
others will look forward to reading more artistic pieces from her in the
future.

Vale,
Aeternia


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A new Sodality...? (long)
From:	SkaldElf@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 15:12:12 EDT

Ave,

Now you can correct me if I'm wrong Iasonus. But it sounds to me that this
Sodality you are wishing to form, is a combination of many previously
established Sodalitas'. Just my opinion feel free to clarify me.

Vale,
Aeternia


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] 21st of April 753BC...
From:	SkaldElf@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 15:13:06 EDT

Ave,

Veni, I will ditto Pompeia's praises. Very good poem indeed.

Vale,
Aeternia


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes and the Religio
From:	SkaldElf@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 16:17:50 EDT

Salvete,

Joining in, I, too, would pay taxes to both Nova Roma and the Religio.
Iasonus you have brought up many good points. I was considering posting a
recap of the entire tax issue including some questions of my own, knowing how
I work, I would probaly add more bloopers and miss crucial elements. So for
the record so that I am speaking out, you want me to pay taxes? If this the
cause is good then you betcha!

Valete,
Aeternia


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gods of the Underworld
From:	Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 13:34:06 -0700 (PDT)

--- mike rasschaert <hadescallias@--------> wrote:
> i worship both the Gods and Goddesses of the
> Underworld, but my list of these deities isn't
> complete. can anyone help me with that. i would much
> appreciated it.

I don't know if it would be appropriate, but I think
that "Inferi" would do. It was a word often used to
refer to and mean "the Gods below". I imagine that,
though masculine, it would also refer to and mean the
Goddesses below. If not, I think that "Inferi
Inferaeque" would suffice.

I hope this helps :->!

Valete optime :->!

Patrcius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Office Suite
From:	mansker@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 21:34:05 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, LSergAust@a... wrote:
> Salve
>
> You raise an interesting point. Nova Roma should not buy software
for
> each new magistrate. Nova Roma should buy the software that
magistrates
> need (such as Excel) and transfer it from previous magistrates to
newly
> elected magistrates.

Or they can have it donated. I have two extra versions of Excel that
I would be happy to donate to someone if they would like. These
versions are actually the office Suites, Office 97 and Office 98.

If this is something that would benefit NovaRoma, I would be happy to
send them to a central location and let the censores figure out who
gets them.

<Snipped>
>
>
> We are now talking about why we must have a system of taxes. Last I
> looked, a single copy of Excel was over US$400. To equip four
Rogatores
> and two Censores with it, you're looking at well over US$2000,
which is,
> I think, more than Nova Roma has in the treasury at this time. One
cost
> cutting solution would be to buy several copies of an older version
on
> eBay, but this still clearly illustrates why the state must have a
system
> of financial support beyond donations and token royalties.

<snipped>

I have several friends who work for that Redmond company, and they
have access to software at HUGE cost savings. I can always ask them
to purchase copies of Office for me at about 10% of the price on the
street.

If other people also know someone who works for that Redmond company,
they might be able to do this as well.

I am not, by the way, advocating that we use only that software. I
am presenting an option to a problem that has been explained on this
list. I do not take offense at anyone who does not like this
software, as I'm not to fond of it either, but must use it in my job.
Because of having to use it in my job, I have become more used to it
then any other software.

Bene

Gaia Flacca Severa

>


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Announcement of Cerealia Winner
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 14:41:11 -0700

Congratulations Lucilla Cornelia Cinna! Great job!

-Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: M. Apollonius Formosanus [mailto:bvm3@--------]
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 9:46 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Announcement of Cerealia Winner

M Apollonius Formosanus Aedilis Plebeius Novae Romae
omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

On the occasion of the Cerealia just past and of the Anniversary of
the Foundation of Rome, the Aediles proclamed public contests in the
arts and sciences to be held with the co�peration of the Sodalitas
Musarum.

<snipped>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] My support to Taxes
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 14:44:45 -0700

Salvete Quiritibus;

A brief 'me too' to this proposal, as it affects *extant* cives
only.

Am still in favor for an annual dues fee for everyone, which
would be related to an initial application fee for the reasons
previously mentioned. Your suggestion though Marcus, is
in my mind perfect for our current population.

Bene valete,
Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: Pompeia Cornelia [mailto:scriba_forum@--------]
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 9:31 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] My support to Taxes

>From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] My support to Taxes
>Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:14:05 -0500 (CDT)
>
>Salvete Marce Octavi et al:

*****This is the approach I favour the most, with respect to dealing with
nonpaying citizens.

Vale,
Pompeia Cornelia

(snip)
>
>I agree. Let us not take away the citizenship of those who do not pay.
>Instead, we should use the existing systems of Centuries and Tribes to
>reward those who do pay. Non-paying citizens should be placed in the
>Urban tribes and the fifth class of centuries; paying citizens should
>be in the Rural tribes and in the first four classes of centuries.
>
>Vale, Octavius.

<snipped>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Edictum Propraetoricium XI about the Approved Thule Provincia conference
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 00:55:39 +0200

Ex Officio Propraetoris Thulae

Edictum Propraetoricium XI
about the Approved Thule Provincia conference

I. The Thule Provincia conference
1. The Propraetor will invite to a Provincia conference of 2 - 3 days
during the summer 2002. The exact date will be decided later.
2. The program is intended to include:
2.1. A live Consilium Plenum
2.2. A "couple" of seminars for all (NR Constitution, Thule Provincia,
Roman history, Roman culture, Roman food, Roman philosophy, Roman religio,
Roman military and maybe more or less)
2.3. At least one common Roman meal.
2.4. Some social gatherings with films and games (for ex. "Republic of Rome").
3. The conference is open for all citizens from Thule, with partners and
sympathizers within Nova Roma.
4. There will be a charge of about 200 Swedish crowns per day to paticipate
for citizens and about 300 Swedish crowns per day for others. At least two
meals per day should be inluded.
5. The costs for beds, localities och travel for all citizens shall be
pooled together, and shared equally between the present citizens.
Non-citizens will have to take on their own costs (except meals).
6. The location shall be decided after we will get information about the
costs for different alternatives.
7. Two alternatives exists at the moment: The Propraetorium S�var and
Stockholm. In the future other alternatives can be of interest. The
determining factor will be to find the conference location with the lowest
costs per citizen.
8. The Propraetor shall with the help he require of others in the
Consilium, put up at least two aternatives at the latest in the end of
February 2002 for consideration among the citizens (in the ThuleNovaRoma
list) and decision in the Consilium.
9. During February and Mars 2002 there will be a discussion within the
Consilium and later the ThuleNovaRoma list. In April that year the
Propraetor will let the Consilium decide this issue. The Propraetor will
only vote with one vote in this issue, but he will also have the casting
vote in this issue.

II. Above Edictum has the support of the Consilium Provincale Thules

III. This edictum becomes effective immediately.

Given April 22nd, in the year of the consulship of Flavius Vedius
Germanicus and Marcus Cassius Iulianus, 2754 AUC.

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Propraetor Thules

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
Join the List for the Thule Provincia in Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://www.acc.umu.se/~kerish/novaroma/main.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
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************************************************
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Subject:	[novaroma] Edictum Propraetoricium IX about the Approved Plenum Order of the Consilium Provincale Thules
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 00:56:19 +0200

Ex Officio Propraetoris Thulae

Edictum Propraetoricium IX
about the Approved Plenum Order of the Consilium Provincale Thules

Routines for the Plena (Plenum in pluralis):

I. During the plenum members of the Consilium should use the mailing list
of the Consilium to discuss issues. Otherwise all discussions should be
private.

1. The Propraetor will call the Consilium to order at a certain date. The
Plenum will continue for a period, decided in advance, of a maximum of
days, decided by the Propraetor Thules. During the plenum the Propraetor
Thules acts as Chairman, if he hasn't appointed the Senior Legatus as his
stand-in.

2. The Propraetor will put on the Consilium table an Agenda for that meeting.

3. The Propraetor or a Reporter (a member of the Consilium appointed by the
Propraetor in advance to write a short introduction to the issue for this
plenum) shall prepare a text with basic background information for the
appointed issue on the Agenda.

4. Each issue is discussed and when the Propraetor deems that he have had
enough input, he call for an advisory vote on each issue. If all Legati,
Prolegati and Consiliari cast their vote against a proposal by the
propraetor, he will have to postpone that decision to the next Consilium
Plenum, to have time for all to find a new proposal. At the next Consilium
Plenum the Propraetor can take what ever decision he deems proper.

5. During the Plenum the Propraetor can decide to listen, this doesn't mean
that he isn't engaged in the issue at hand. But the members of the
Consilium are there to advise the Propraetor, so he will have to just
listen sometimes. The Propraetor will there and then or later state his
decision on the issue. Each issue will be worked through in this way.

6. The Propraetor will call an end to the plenum when he deems proper.
Those issues that are not discussed and voted on will be put on the agenda
of the next Plenum of the Consilium.

II. Above Edictum has the support of the Consilium Provincale Thules

III. This edictum becomes effective immediately.

Given April 22nd, in the year of the consulship of Flavius Vedius

Germanicus and Marcus Cassius Iulianus, 2754 AUC.

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus

Propraetor Thules</x-rich>

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
Join the List for the Thule Provincia in Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://www.acc.umu.se/~kerish/novaroma/main.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
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************************************************
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Subject:	[novaroma] Edictum Propraetoricium X about the Approved Order of the Cohors Propraetoris
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 00:56:36 +0200

Ex Officio Propraetoris Thulae

Edictum Propraetoricium X
about the Approved Order of the Cohors Propraetoris

I. The Cohors Propraetoris are all the assistants (legati and scribae) of
the Propraetor Thules.
1. All members (Legati and Consiliari) of the Consilium Provincia Thules
are part of the inner circle of the Cohors Propraetoris.
2. All other officials appointed by the Propraetor Thules, are parts of the
outer circle of the Cohors Propraetoris. This does not mean that they lack
in importance, on the contrary, they have each an important field of
responsibility.
3. The whole Cohors Propraetoris is the heirs of the followers of the
provincial Governor of Roma Antiqua. His retinue was in many respects a
military one; they all acted in a foreign country that could be hostile.
4. We will also act in a non-Roman country, but let's hope that it isn't
hostile.
5. Anyway I do as the Governors of the old days expect a certain loyalty,
discipline and unity from my Cohors Propraetoris.
6. The members of the Consilium should, as a kind of General Staff, set an
example in this and all Roman behaviour (virtues) to the rest of the Cohors
Propraetoris.

II. Above Edictum has the support of the Consilium Provincale Thules

III. This edictum becomes effective immediately.

Given April 22nd, in the year of the consulship of Flavius Vedius
Germanicus and Marcus Cassius Iulianus, 2754 AUC.

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Propraetor Thules

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
Join the List for the Thule Provincia in Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://www.acc.umu.se/~kerish/novaroma/main.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
Using a keyboard that don't want to make L! :-(
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Inclusion vs. Exclusion: Response to Formosanus
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 16:20:17 -0700

Salvete Formosane et Quiritibus;

Well, first of all -gratias multas for such
a very thorough treatment of my post! It's
been a long time since someone has done so and
it is much appreciated, regardless of any degree
of disagreement we may have over its contents.

There are a few points of response that I'll
make below, but no offence intended if I don't
respond to each point. Many of these issues have
been discussed elsewhere so those that have
can stand on their own merits. (Or, lack thereof :-)
Without further ado, comments below:

-----Original Message-----
From: M. Apollonius Formosanus [mailto:bvm3@--------]
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 8:47 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Inclusion vs. Exclusion

<snipped>

What seems to bother Oppius is a
belief that a kind of compulsive control and setting of rigid
standards for everyone is absolutely necessary for our welfare, and
that this must be so severe that he is willing to see willing
citizens driven away just because they do not meet his very demanding
criteria for work, monetary tribute, documentation of their existence
by deliberately clumsy means, etc.

OFS: I can understand how you might take that way.
But, since this is a forum for differences of opinions
(and in some cases, even Concordia! :-) I'll just
say this in response: You're right about my demanding
standards. They are thus. Others have demanding standards
of me, it's how I was raised and high standards are
indeed what I wish to see for my chosen micronation.
Does that mean they're all correct or that I'll get them?
No. But, I stand by them nevertheless.

As far as willingly driving anyone away, I have responded
to this in other posts of late. -The shortened response:
No, I have personally no intention of driving anyone away
by requesting basic verifications. You choose to see it
thusly and that's your right. My words stand in the numerous
other posts on the subject.

<snipped>
Formosanus:
Yes, the quality of life for the citizens of Nova Roma in terms of
its freedom, opportunities and services, and the contributions we can
make to the rest of the world through our Roman concerns are
important too - I do not believe at all that size of membership is
everything. But if we can have more citizens just by not making
things unnecessarily difficult or by actively trying to weed out the
relatively inactive, let us keep the other citizens. Some people
prefer to be passive and watch and listen with pleasure - why be
savage and demanding with them? A line of information in our database
is not all that heavy a price to pay for an additional citizen, even
if completely inactive.

OFS: Actually, I agree with much of what you say here.
As far as passivity, Marcus Octavius' suggestion on
taxes is a good one and letting non-participants
reside in the urban tribes is a good solution. I have
come around to that way thinking on a partial basis.

Formosanus:
Being unpleasant and demanding with the
inactive will not make many of them more active: it is far more
likely to drive them away completely. So, would Nova Roma really be
better off with only the activists who post on this list at least
once a month? Smallish group, isn't it?

OFS: See above and the other posts, at least for
my opinions on same.

Formosanus:
But I am primarily writing now to respond to Oppius' very interesting
post analysing being a club or a micronation:

OFS: Gratias!

<snipped>

MAF: I myself think that we should use *both* self-concepts - and do
so in a constructive and reasonable way.

OFS: Fair enough so far.

1. From the standpoint of being a membership organisation
incorporated under New Hampshire law, we ought to remember that we
are in cold fact and the opinion of the world exactly that. And it is
in many ways natural for us to function that way, as well as legally
required. We hold no sovereign territory recognised by even one
macronation. This gives us advantages, of course, such as the
protection of New Hampshire and U.S. laws against discrimination or
if an officer steals our organisational funds.

OFS: Good point. As this has been responded to elsewhere,
I'll refrain from further comment at this time.

Formosanus:
2. From the standpoint of being a micronation, we give ourselves the
chance to each belong to a second nation which unites us weird Roman
types around the world in a virtual place of our own. It has a
different atmosphere from a mere club. It sets a higher standard for
us in terms of justice and concern for the individual, it perhaps
makes a better home for our gods, and it might look more logical from
the standpoint of having the institutions of a State - the Roman
Republic - as our administrative form.

OFS: So far, so good. I agree with you on both points.

Formosanus:
Of course both concepts can also be used wrongly: thinking of us as
a mere society might trivialise us more than need be, whereas any
kind of nationalism can become a nasty frenzy and excuse for
arrogance against minorities within and outsiders without if people
whip it up to be.

OFS: I agree, there is a balance to be matched.
Or as I stated in a recent post, a 'happy medium.'
Personally, it's the 'happy medium' that I want
to find through the exercise of these discussions.

Let us continue with Oppius' analysis:

<snipped>

MAF: Exactly. Nations give their citizens a lot of hassle, they are
usually rather arrogant, and they delight in bureaucracy.

OFS: A quick point of comment: I agree that nations
can be arrogant. We've all seen it from a number of nations,
including my macronation. I think though to stretch that
to saying they actually delight in it, is a lot more relative.
Depends on many factors, including factors such as demographics,
business climate, racial districting (meant in terms of nations
that contain many other small nations within its borders that
maintain common but separate identities,)roads, schools, zoning
and a plethora of other things.

One point of clarification here, since I see you address
it later. (I've also addressed this in other posts.)
Because we have differing ideas of bureaucracy, does not
necessarily equate out into correct opinion on either
side of the coin. More on this later.

Formosanus:
In Nova
Roma we have managed to minimise these things in a wonderful way
thanks to internet technology, and build a place where red tape and
hassle are at a minimum. Imitating macronations *in their worst
aspects* in order to feel "nation-like" strikes me as being exactly
the wrong course of action to take in our micronational development.
Moving to take more advantage of the internet and the freedom, low
costs, and informality it offers, combined perhaps with the freedom
and informality of small face-to-face groupings united by that
internet organisation, we would have a Nova Roma far superior to one
investigating, taxing and pressuring every citizen into the ground.

OFS: Since I'm addressing this elsewhere, I'll leave further
comment out of this topic for now.

<snipped>

MAF: Now advocating what you hate just because macronations do that
is really perverse in my estimation. A faceless macronational
government does not control things here; WE do! And we can act
towards each other with more trust, sympathy, and consideration than
our macronations treat us. So, let's do it!

OFS: Actually Formosanus, I need to correct you on
this point of interpretation of my view. I can say
that I may hate something, but still feel it necessary
for certain things. This does not mean for a single, solitary
moment that I in any way advocate a departure from
being an Internet-enabled society. This is further
addressed elsewhere.

As far as having trust, sympathy and consideration -on
this point we're in agreement. We can and *should* have
copious amounts of these elements; still recognizing our abilities
to see things differently and that because we do does not
necessarily make one view more 'correct' than the other.

Formosanus:
And in fact, even macronational governments are putting ever more on
line, including tax payment in some places. Nor do they completely
ignore their public opinion: why is military conscription abolished
or being phased out in so many Western countries which once had it,
if not because macronational governments have been forced by their
populations to scale down on demands made on the citizens that were
burdensome and not demonstrably necessary?

OFS: Agreed to a limited extent. However, this is
not simply due to public opinion. It's due to control
costs, overruns and federal entitlement programs.
We do need to consider all points of view, reach a level
of consensus and move forward.

Formosanus:
But big mistakes are happening in this discussion due to the use of
he word "nation" for three things: (1) macronations and (2) landed
micronations and our own (3) internet-based micronation.

OFS: Not mistakes, variances of opinion. The point
of the discussion was to clarify everyone's thoughts
on the matter and then vote on the appropriate measures.

Formosanus:
We are an internet-based micronation:

1) Macronations have sovereign territory. Landed micronations do too.
We do not. You cannot live here physically.

OFS: True enough, but we are looking to change
this. My stance is well known in support of
future land holdings.

Formosanus:
2) Macronations have economies which produce things, offer people
jobs, and can be taxed by the State. Landed micronations do too. One
could argue that we produce coins and flags (albeit not on our
non-existent territory), but basically this does not apply to us
either.

OFS: Partially true, however I also think that part of the
difference in the multitude of opinions on the subject is
that there's the 'Nova Roma of right now, the present' and
there's the 'Nova Roma we all want to see built.' It is the
latter which is the topical point of my discussions. NPC's
*do* generate jobs, grants, beneficent works to the community
and so forth. Granted though, as it stands right at this second
in time, we do not do this as of yet.

Formosanus:
3) Macronations have armed and/or police forces whereby to assert
their State will by force and violence. So do landed micronations. We
do not.

OFS: This is true, again 'for the moment.' However, if
we move in the direction as many have advocated, then I
can rest assure you that some form of police/security/monitoring
infrastructure will arise once people live together under
any sort of common banner.

Formosanus:
4) Macronations, if developed, make some provisions for social
welfare in terms of social insurance, health care, education, etc. So
do landed micronations. We do not, although admittedly some of our
activity is educational.

OFS: Again, I invoke the 'now vs. future' clause. But yes,
of course that right now we do not beyond educational
activities. However, there has been much talk of late about
becoming active as a nation in other social and educational
causes; which if this happens will change some of the elements
of our nation further.

Formosanus:
We are *different* from even a landed micronation like San Marino or
Andorra which has a bit of sovereign land, not to mention a
full-scale macronation. We are, in fact, more like a membership
organisation chartered under macronational law.

OFS: Again, now vs. future. I will be more than happy
to continue discussing the NR of 'right this very second,'
but at least with my previous posts, including the
one you're responding to-they are all oriented towards
'moving forward.'

Formosanus:
I think that we should glory in being one of the first rather
serious primarily internet-based micronations. Existence in the
internet is not unreal as some seem to feel. We are real people here.
Manipulating our most human tool - language - we can hurt and make
glad, help or frustrate one another here. We can practise political
skills here, learn and teach here, make friends and enemies here,
worship our gods here.

OFS: Up to this point in the paragraph, I agree with
you. This has never been about reality vs. non-reality.
Most of us know that we're real. I feel that my communication
with you now for instance, is very real. If for
instance, I did not believe you to be real I would
never take the time to communicate with you.

<snipped>

Formosanus:
1) We can live without an immigration policy (sensu Oppiano). There
are no jobs here or a place of physical freedom to attract those who
love not Rome, and those who love Rome can always have a place here
without overpopulation of our virtual land or taking away anyone's
job.

OFS: See above.

Formosanus:
2) We can live with an absolute minimum of bureaucracy and red tape
because we can do everything on the net and many necessary functions
of a macronational state do not apply here.

OFS: This again is relative. You are right in that
we can certainly 'move' a lot of standard governmental
functions to the Internet -in fact have in most cases.
No one -especially myself is going to argue away from
this. Remember -I'm a child of the information age too.
Being a consultant in the Internet-security industry,
I very much appreciate how much of our facilities are
available online.

The only thing I can do here, since we thus far seemed
bound to disagree; is to point you back to the fact of
what was initially proposed. Verification. Initial
verification to be precise. Not the whole sale move
from an Internet-based society to a paper-based one.
As stated previously, I will be posting on this
separately to the mainlist probably late tonight
or tomorrow sometime.

Formosanus:
3) We can run a very low-budget operation that does not really
require taxes.

OFS: We disagree here. Our views of taxation will never
even come close; but am glad to see that we seem to be
finding some agreement on other areas.

Formosanus:
In other words, we are not being limited to an undesirable status
because of being an internet nation, but are enjoying many advantages
because of it. That fact deserves the serious consideration of all of
us.

OFS: Again, even the people who have mentioned the
hated non-Internet term of 'snail mail,' do not advocate
in anyway that we dissipate our Internet advantages.
With all due respect, you are taking a single point of
'verification,' and using it as a rally cry for all
shades of bureaucracy. You are of course free to do so,
but I can assure that that was never even remotely
stated (or intended to be implied,) in any of my
previous posts.

<snipped>

MAF; We *are*? That we may someday *own* a headquarters building or a
temple is highly believable and even probable. That we will succeed
in actually liberating a piece of territory from the control of other
nations, who are always very jealous of it, is certainly much less
probable and certainly very long-range. I might suggest waiting until
it is feasible and imminent rather than behaving as if it were
already accomplished.

OFS: Your recommendation is certainly valid, especially
in a good many 'day to day' operational venues. But, please
do not assume that it's my intention to have us behave
this way, simply because I've suggested some things with
which you may not agree. This is why the question was
put to the main list; of course with the full admission
that I don't have all the answers.

Formosanus:
Because, what is necessary and desirable for an internet-based
micronation and what is necessary and desirable for a landed
micronation are different. Nobody doubts that we are internet based
at present or that we will be for some time, despite our arranging of
face-to-face meetings and local groups of our people *in their
macronations*. During this period, does it not make more sense to
have policies suitable for what we actually are?

OFS: Yes. The suitable way in my mind would indeed
be: adopt what makes sense for now, with a long-range
view to the future. I will continue to maintain that
it's all in how we 'view' NR as individuals and what
we 'want' it to be. This is exactly the point of my
posts.

<snipped>

MAF: I am sure that neither Oppius nor most of us would like to
disable our internet presence.

OFS: Absolutely not! Please see above.

Formosanus:
But for now we *are* internet based,
and should adapt our policies, laws, procedures, and thinking to that
central reality (as we mostly have been doing). And we should not
despise the fact that our central basis is in the most modern,
flexible, affordable, fast, and innovative means of communication
known to Man. The internet is a *good* place to be. And it is a new
*kind* of place to be. Cyberspace is a real godsend to a micronation,
not something second rate.

OFS: No one has stated otherwise. See above. There's
a happy medium. Any of the thousands of 'dotcoms' that
have failed and laid off vast numbers of people would be
more than happy to discuss the fine line between 'Internet
centricity' and 'Internet enablement.'

<snipped>

And what if we acquired *two* physical centres, say in Saskatchewan
and in Rome (Italy) - how would they be most closely linked - if not
by the internet?! We are more than just internet-enabled. We are in
fact internet *based*, and it is a very good thing.

OFS: See above and my other posts on the matter.
'Internet-enablement' does *not* imply utilization
of non-technical methods as the primary goal. Quite
simply, it means that the Internet is recognized as
one valuable 'channel' of conducting business and
communications, but it is not the 'only' channel.
I do know a bit about this having worked with dozens
of dotcommers in the height of the Silicon Valley
'revolution' as well as a vast number of both flavors
of company in my current capacity.

Oppius continues:

Let me further state as I've done before -my way
is not necessarily any more correct than anyone
else's.

MAF: And to think! When I stated in a former post that this was a
matter of personal value judgement, Oppius could only make a
sarcastic comment about me simply because I expressed my opinion.
Here he says the same thing that I did. Very good!

OFS: I'll be happy to correct this if it was
indeed off target. I do not have pretenses toward
perfection. I will say however, that you do not
always state your posts thusly. (Or at least they
are perceived that way.) To be as delicate as possible,
there are times when you say things such as 'common
sense,' 'it's evil,' or 'it's scientific' -without
supporting statements, which do not equate out
to the same as outright opinion, but rather appear
as you are making statements of fact.

I am not the only one to mention to have mentioned
this to you.

<snipped>

MAF: That would be overly simple indeed!

OFS: Yes, that was part of the point I was
making. That many of our polls and 'conclusions'
are too informally simple and one-dimensional.
However, obviously we could certainly add
additional terms to the poll.

Formosanus:
I for one hold that we are
*an internet-based nation*. Which is neither a landed macronation
with its bureaucracy and suspicious concerns about citizens and
foreigners, nor just a club.

OFS: And that Formosanus, is as good and thorough
of a definition as any of us could have. I contend
a slightly version; that we will become more 'Internet
enabled' as we move forward, but on that point we are
not likely to agree. Nevertheless -gratias for proposing
a definition; this is what we need all of us to do.

Formosanus:
But whatever we are, we are not going to be more like a "nation" in
any positive, constructive, humanly-desirable sense of the word on
account of introducing old-fashioned snail-mail procedures and
paranoia about supposed people who like us well enough to become
citizens twice. :-)

OFS: :-) Yes, I see the smile there. As to the snail-mail
issue, we have different interpretations as has been
stated.

Formosanus:
Let us rejoice at being on the internet, taking it as our home, and
dispensing with the necessarily exclusivistic concerns of nations
limited by their land areas and bearing the heavy burden of catering
to economic interests. A real nation today does not have to be like
the customary image of a nation, and certainly it does not have to
imitate practices outdated in themselves or suitable only for
territorial States.

OFS: I do rejoice in it! And I agree that we do not have/desire/need
to possess all the same characteristics of any macronation. If
I wanted that for myself, I wouldn't have joined. We all want
to see something different emerge from the 'primordial ooze' of our
genesis. The questions of 'how do we get there?' and 'what
do we do once we arrive?' are indeed the interesting questions
and with all the positive discussion and debate on the issue,
we will wind up with something truly wonderful!

Bene valete,
Oppius

<snipped>

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