Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Office Suite
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 00:09:07 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, mansker@m... wrote:
> --- In novaroma@--------, LSergAust@a... wrote:
> > Salve
> >
> > You raise an interesting point. Nova Roma should not buy software
> for
> > each new magistrate. Nova Roma should buy the software that
> magistrates
> > need (such as Excel) and transfer it from previous magistrates to
> newly
> > elected magistrates.
>
> Or they can have it donated. I have two extra versions of Excel
that
> I would be happy to donate to someone if they would like. These
> versions are actually the office Suites, Office 97 and Office 98.
>
> If this is something that would benefit NovaRoma, I would be happy
to
> send them to a central location and let the censores figure out who
> gets them.
>
> <Snipped>
> >
> >
> > We are now talking about why we must have a system of taxes. Last
I
> > looked, a single copy of Excel was over US$400. To equip four
> Rogatores
> > and two Censores with it, you're looking at well over US$2000,
> which is,
> > I think, more than Nova Roma has in the treasury at this time.
One
> cost
> > cutting solution would be to buy several copies of an older
version
> on
> > eBay, but this still clearly illustrates why the state must have
a
> system
> > of financial support beyond donations and token royalties.
>
> <snipped>
>
> I have several friends who work for that Redmond company, and they
> have access to software at HUGE cost savings. I can always ask
them
> to purchase copies of Office for me at about 10% of the price on
the
> street.
>
> If other people also know someone who works for that Redmond
company,
> they might be able to do this as well.
>
> I am not, by the way, advocating that we use only that software. I
> am presenting an option to a problem that has been explained on
this
> list. I do not take offense at anyone who does not like this
> software, as I'm not to fond of it either, but must use it in my
job.
> Because of having to use it in my job, I have become more used to
it
> then any other software.
>
> Bene
>
> Gaia Flacca Severa
>
> >

Salvete,

A legal point. Nobody (execpt Microsoft) owns a copy of Office. You
have a license. Microsoft's License is NON-TRANSFERABLE. If you give
your old software to Nova Roma and someone installs it, the two of
you have commited Software Piracy. If Nova Roma Purchases a Copy of
Office for a magistrate, and that person fails to remove the software
from thier PC, Then Nova Roma is pirating the software when it's
installed on the New Magistrate's PC. Some of the terms that
Microsoft includes in it's software licenses are a partial cause of
my admited bias against MS.

The Reason I Sugested StarOffice from the beginning is the terms of
thier license are far better. MS licenses it's software on a per
computer basis. You need a seprate license for each PC it's installed
on. Sun's license is to the entire organization. You buy ONE copy,
That is ONE license, that is good for EVERY Computer that Nova Roma
is using.

Microsoft has been known to ask for documented proof that an
organization has the proper licenses, and to charge new license fees
if you can't prove that every copy in use is legal. Use of any
software that we don't have proof of licenses for can result in legal
action against Nova Roma.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Office Suite
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 00:15:20 -0000


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] A Bill Of Rights
From:	"C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 21:20:31 -0400

Salvete Gaii Noviodune Ferricule et omnes,

If you read what I said more closey, you'll see I didn't say citizens should
be required to vote by law. What I did said is that citizens should be
responsibile enough to realize that for thier democracy to function
properly, they need to vote. As far as Switzerland (or any other nation for
that matter) goes, the fact that life goes on, the trains run on time, and
there's not anarchy in the streets does not meen demoracy is functing
ideally. I think you would be hard pressed to find any nation where it does
function the way it should. When a minority of the population is making the
decisions, what you effectively have is an oligarchy. While admittedly you
will probably never see 100% voter turn out anywhere, 70-75% would give you
a fair better level of representation and is something we should shoot for
here in NR by emphasizing the very Roman ideal of civic duty.

Valete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus

-----Original Message-----
From: G. Noviodunus Ferriculus [mailto:Gaius.Noviodunus@--------]
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:04 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] A Bill Of Rights

Salve Legate,

Adrian Gunn wrote:

> I would like to point out

> that I am not suggesting that civic responsibilities, such as voting,

> should be required by law - but simply spelled out as an ideal that

> all citizens should aspire too. Given the current state of citizen

> participation in Nova Roma, I would say that we are failing as a

> Democracy.

I don't agree with you. Requiring *by law* a citizen to vote. I hope to
live in a democracy (my macronation is Switzerland) but we don't have an
obligation to vote. Actually, at every vote (4 times per year) we have
*always* around 50% abstinents. And I wouldn't consider Switzerland to
be failing as a democracy.

Vale
--
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
Friburgii Helvetiorum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] My support to Taxes
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 18:32:32 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes.

> I agree. Let us not take away the citizenship of those who do not
> pay.
> Instead, we should use the existing systems of Centuries and Tribes
> to
> reward those who do pay. Non-paying citizens should be placed in the
> Urban tribes and the fifth class of centuries; paying citizens should
> be in the Rural tribes and in the first four classes of centuries.
>
> Vale, Octavius.
>
> --
> M. Octavius Germanicus
> Propraetor, Lacus Magni
> Curator Araneum et Senator

This is exactly the kind of thing that I'd like to support. Well, maybe
some of you will think it's a too mild reward, but I think it's a very
good starting point. Perhaps we could discuss additional rewards for
taxpayers. Any ideas?

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes, keeping citizens and implementing a certain limited controll
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 19:03:01 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes, et salve Quintiliane.

> 1. Nova Roma should have an average central tax ($12 in $ or other
> currencies) as well as a provincial tax of no more than the same sum,
> collected annually.
> 2. These taxes should be collected by the Governor of each province,
> or his
> appointed representatives. The central tax should be sent to the
> central
> Aerarium by the Governor or his representatives.

I also think this would be the perfect solution. I have made my own
inquiries on how do some international organizations handle their
memebership fees, and a local collectong system seems to be the norm.

Every province could have a local bank account in which citizens could
deposit their taxes, and then they could be transferred to the central
government account. This seems easier than trying to make every citizen
pay directly, especially for those living outside the States.

> 3. A new citizen should not have to pay any taxes during their first
> year as citizen. Because of this, all new citizens should be placed
> in
> the "head count" century and the urban tribes. As new citizens they
> will, however, be allowed to stand for office according to the
> legislation of Nova Roma.
> 4. Those who, after the first year, refuse to pay taxes, should be
> placed in the Urban tribes and a century for the "head count" until
> taxes and
> back-taxes have been paid in full.

Perfect! Those of you that have ever read one of my many posts about
taxation will know this approach is the one I have always supported.
Thank you, Caeso, for making such clear satements.

> 5. Those who have expenditures on the central level should receive
> compensation from the central funds.
> 6. Those who have expenditures on the provincial level should receive
> compensation from the provincial funds.

Of course, they should be required to proof their expenditures in front
of the Senate. That's just common sense, to me.

> 7. Those who don't vote should be placed into the Urban tribes and
> the
> century for the "head count".
> 8. Those who don't pay their taxes should not be allowed to stand for
> office. Taxes in this case means any part of the taxes according to
> the
> rules in 9.
> 9. To be counted as a tax-payer, some form of tax must be paid by the
> citizen in question. Those who can't pay full taxes, should apply at
> the
> Governor's "office" for an exception of up to three quarters of the
> total central tax. It should be up to the Governor or his appointed
> representatives to decide who would be eligible for an exception. You
> may be eligible for an exception if you fulfill one or more of the
> following requirements:
> A/ You are a student
> B/ You are currently unemployed
> C/ You are a citizen of a country with low GNP per capita
> D/ You are retired
> E/ You are, according to your local legislation, poor
>
> The Governor could decide to remit up to the whole provincial tax.
> This
> means that all citizens would have to pay at least $3. That is, in my
> opinion, very reasonable. You could skip paying altogether, but there
> would be consequences.
>
> In this system there will be certain punishments for those who don't
> pay
> the required amount of taxes and for those who don't vote.
>
> Is that democratic? Well, in some countries the rule is that you have
> to
> vote or pay taxes to be "accepted", while in others it isn't. I think
> it
> is fair though! Is it democratic not to participate in the electorial
> process of a nation you have willingly entered? I don't think it is.
> Are
> there enough considerations allowed for poor or students and the
> like? I
> think there are, although I'm sure there are those among you who will
> disagree.
>
> What do we gain from this system?
> 1. We will get in touch with most citizens. WE won't drive anyone
> away!
> If they don't like the system they can stay and fight it, or they can
> leave, if they don't think it's worth fighting for.
> 2. We will get a stable income, as it is my belief that most would
> want to
> pay.
> 3. Those who don't pay taxes or vote (the passive) would still be
> here,
> and we would get the chance to convince them, in time, to pay or
> vote.
> 4.For persons to cheat with multiple citizenships and so on, would be
> close to pointless, and our chance to find them would be higher. We
> will
> also get a certain control over who is citizen.
> 5. No one would be totally excluded and I think that we would have a
> system that kept the moral incentives to pay/vote at a high level,
> and
> the "punishments" at a reasonable level.
>
> I can see that we will have to organize the central tax-collecting in
> some way, but we still need a provincial "bureaucracy" for this and
> other purposes, and I think it can be kept at a reasonable level.
>
> This is my proposal! This is the main goals I will aim for. Of
> course,
> there could, maybe should, be adjustments.
>
> Vale
>
> Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> Quaestor of Nova Roma
> Propraetor of Thule
> Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus
>

I think this post should be taken as a draft bill for our tax lex.
Absolutely impressive, Caeso! Have you been reading my mind again?

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] My support to Taxes
From:	Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 04:05:31 +0200

Marcus Octavius Germanicus wrote:
> I agree. Let us not take away the citizenship of those who do not pay.
> Instead, we should use the existing systems of Centuries and Tribes to
> reward those who do pay. Non-paying citizens should be placed in the
> Urban tribes and the fifth class of centuries; paying citizens should
> be in the Rural tribes and in the first four classes of centuries.

Salvete, omnes.

Just a minor addition to the debate, likely to get ignored and/or
flamed.

What if all new citizens start in fifth class, when they pay their first
taxes, they get elevated to the fourth, second time they move up to the
third, etc. Eventually, after four consecutive years of tax payment,
they would be in the first class of centuries, bringing much more weight
to their votes. If they then failed to pay their taxes, they would not
be immediately put back in the fifth class, but rather moved downwards
into the second class, and thus after paying their taxes for four years,
and then not paying another four years, be back in the fifth
century...could this somehow be implemented? Or is this just a bad idea,
plain and simple?

The thought suddenly struck me as I was reading the post above by my
paterfamilias, and since I'm a bit fatigued at the moment, I decided to
let you contemplate its' merits and flaws, since I'm not up to it.

Good night, now I'll sleep tight...I just hope the bad bugs won't
byte...:)

Valete,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consiliarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Romae Laudatio
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 19:09:03 -0700 (PDT)

--- LSergAust@-------- wrote:

> She may not live much longer if you don't find some women in
> Hispania!
>
> ;-)
>
> Where are the Sabines when we need them?
>
> LOL
>
> L. Sergius Aust.

LOL, Sergie. In fact, we have recently "adopted" a couple of sheilas,
mate ;-).

I think this has done wonders to the hormonal aequilibrium of Hispania.
We all seem more relaxed, more friendly, more happy... :-).

Nova Roma certainly needs more women. They are smarter than us bruces,
and they are SO nice to talk to. So, girls, don't let them tell you
this is a "just for men" urbs...

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] My support to Taxes
From:	"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 05:03:25 +0200

Salve Tite Octavi Pi et al.

> What if all new citizens start in fifth class, when they pay their first

> taxes, they get elevated to the fourth, second time they move up to the

> third, etc. Eventually, after four consecutive years of tax payment,

> they would be in the first class of centuries, bringing much more weight

> to their votes. If they then failed to pay their taxes, they would not

> be immediately put back in the fifth class, but rather moved downwards

> into the second class, and thus after paying their taxes for four years,

> and then not paying another four years, be back in the fifth

> century...could this somehow be implemented? Or is this just a bad idea,

> plain and simple?

That would, to my sense, put too much weigh on the tax. The idea is good
(downgrading step by step and not immediately to the 5th class century)
but all this should be combined with the degree of involvement in Nova
Roma (like voting, being candidate for an office and so on...)

Valete,

--
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
Friburgii Helvetiorum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes, keeping citizens and implementing a certain limited controll
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 14:12:49 +1000 (EST)

Ave omnes,

You know what I find really irritating? I post an
alternative suggestion to the current taxation system,
one which is based on a gens tax + extra for each
other member of a gens, and nothing is said about it,
not even the slightest hint of discussion. It is as if
we have already completely decided on this form of
taxation with very little discussion on other more
direct forms of taxation which, seem to me at least,
to be fairer, as they would take the burden off of
others and allow NR to still make a decent profit. I
still do, and will always stand by my thoughts that
the system suggested by our censor Lucius Equitius of
gens taxation is the fairest system so far (with
perhaps an adjustment so that gens members pay about
$2-$4, and the gens tax set at about $15 - $18
perhaps). The amount of single person gens in NR would
see that this system would work out about the same as
the other system that is being discussed at the
moment.

Please write your opinions,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

--- Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Salvete Omnes! 
 
I am, and have been for some time, convinced that we
need taxes/dues in 
Nova Roma. I don't want our officials to use their own
money to finance 
work beneficial to us all. We should introduce taxes,
but we should do 
it in such a way that it will not exclude those who
don't have a 
sufficiently large income. 
 
We have discussions about what will and what
won't cause people to 
depart from Nova Roma, but when it comes to taxes, it
is my firm belief 
that we can find a system that doesn't have this
effect. 
 
But there is one thing I want to avoid, and building a
large and 
cumbersome bureaucracy for all of this. I say let's
look for simple 
solutions, preferably easy to implement for our
officials. I don't want 
our officials to spend too much of their valuable time
performing tasks 
which wouldn't be necessary if organized
differently. 
 
I will now tell you how I feel about taxes, votes,
passive citizens and 
control. This is how I would like to have it! 
 
1. Nova Roma should have an average central tax ($12
in $ or other 
currencies) as well as a provincial tax of no more
than the same sum, 
collected annually. 
2. These taxes should be collected by the Governor of
each province, or his 
appointed representatives. The central tax should be
sent to the central 
Aerarium by the Governor or his representatives. 
3. A new citizen should not have to pay any taxes
during their first 
year as citizen. Because of this, all new citizens
should be placed in 
the "head count" century and the urban
tribes. As new citizens they 
will, however, be allowed to stand for office
according to the 
legislation of Nova Roma. 
4. Those who, after the first year, refuse to pay
taxes, should be 
placed in the Urban tribes and a century for the
"head count" until taxes and 
back-taxes have been paid in full. 
5. Those who have expenditures on the central level
should receive 
compensation from the central funds. 
6. Those who have expenditures on the provincial level
should receive 
compensation from the provincial funds. 
7. Those who don't vote should be placed into the
Urban tribes and the 
century for the "head count". 
8. Those who don't pay their taxes should not be
allowed to stand for 
office. Taxes in this case means any part of the taxes
according to the 
rules in 9. 
9. To be counted as a tax-payer, some form of tax must
be paid by the 
citizen in question. Those who can't pay full taxes,
should apply at the 
Governor's "office" for an exception of up
to three quarters of the 
total central tax. It should be up to the Governor or
his appointed 
representatives to decide who would be eligible for an
exception. You 
may be eligible for an exception if you fulfill one or
more of the 
following requirements: 
A/ You are a student 
B/ You are currently unemployed 
C/ You are a citizen of a country with low GNP per
capita 
D/ You are retired 
E/ You are, according to your local legislation,
poor 
 
The Governor could decide to remit up to the whole
provincial tax. This 
means that all citizens would have to pay at least $3.
That is, in my 
opinion, very reasonable. You could skip paying
altogether, but there 
would be consequences. 
 
In this system there will be certain punishments for
those who don't pay 
the required amount of taxes and for those who don't
vote. 
 
Is that democratic? Well, in some countries the rule
is that you have to 
vote or pay taxes to be "accepted", while in
others it isn't. I think it 
is fair though! Is it democratic not to participate in
the electorial 
process of a nation you have willingly entered? I
don't think it is. Are 
there enough considerations allowed for poor or
students and the like? I 
think there are, although I'm sure there are those
among you who will 
disagree. 
 
What do we gain from this system? 
1. We will get in touch with most citizens. WE won't
drive anyone away! 
If they don't like the system they can stay and fight
it, or they can 
leave, if they don't think it's worth fighting
for. 
2. We will get a stable income, as it is my belief
that most would want to 
pay. 
3. Those who don't pay taxes or vote (the passive)
would still be here, 
and we would get the chance to convince them, in time,
to pay or vote. 
4.For persons to cheat with multiple citizenships and
so on, would be 
close to pointless, and our chance to find them would
be higher. We will 
also get a certain control over who is citizen. 
5. No one would be totally excluded and I think that
we would have a 
system that kept the moral incentives to pay/vote at a
high level, and 
the "punishments" at a reasonable level. 
 
I can see that we will have to organize the central
tax-collecting in 
some way, but we still need a provincial
"bureaucracy" for this and 
other purposes, and I think it can be kept at a
reasonable level. 
 
This is my proposal! This is the main goals I will aim
for. Of course, 
there could, maybe should, be adjustments. 
 
Vale 
 
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus 
Quaestor of Nova Roma 
Propraetor of Thule 
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus 
 
The Opinions expressed are my own, 
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma 
************************************************ 
Join the Main List for Nova Roma 
<a
href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma</a> 
Join the List for the Thule Provincia in Nova Roma 
<a
href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join</a> 
************************************************ 
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule: 
<a
href="http://www.acc.umu.se/~kerish/novaroma/main.html">http://www.acc.umu.se/~kerish/novaroma/main.html</a> 
************************************************ 
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam 
"I'll either find a way or make one" 
************************************************ 
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark
side." 
************************************************ 
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling. 
************************************************ 
Using a keyboard that don't want to make L! :-( 
************************************************ 
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10 
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56 
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80 
</tt>

 



<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 1357
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 00:35:43 -0400

M. Apollonius Formosanus scripsit:
<<the prize for the Cerealia [goes to] Lucilla Cornelia Cinna for
her poetic work "What is Love". We particularly liked it because we
felt it had a particular applicability to the Goddess >>

Congratulations! A lovely poem. Ceres bless you :-)

Valete,
Helena Galeria


Subject:	[novaroma] Name Change for Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus...
From:	"Aurelius Tiberius" <kminer_rsg@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:29:48 -0400

Salve all,

It is with a great bit of pride that I announce the Censors of our great
nation have approved my request to change my name. when I came to NR my
initial request was changed to the current name used. After the Censors'
leanancy and good nature, they have allowed me to change it to my first
request (and to what has always been my reenactment name!!)

Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus

in now

Cascus Tiberius Rufio Longinus

Long live the Republic and Gens Tiberia!!!

Vale,

Caska... (nick name!!)

Cascus Tiberius Rufio Longinus
Praefectus Legionis & Tribuni Militum
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis
& Cornicularius,Sodalitas Militarium et Nova Roma
Pater, Gens Tiberia of Nova Roma

"Nos Sumus Romae milites, parati stamus ad potestatem et gloriam eius. Roma
est Lux."
"we are soldiers of Rome, for her might and glory we stand ready... She is
the Light"

www.geocities.com/legio_vi

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com


Subject:	[novaroma] Oath of office for Legatus of Australia Medius
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 15:17:10 +1000 (EST)

Ave Quirites,

I, Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura (Craig Stevenson)
do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova
Roma, and to act always in the best interests of
the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gaius Sentius
Bruttius Sura (Craig Stevenson) swear to honor the
Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and
to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private
life.

I, Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura (Craig Stevenson)
swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the
State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in
a way that would threaten its status as the State
Religion.

I, Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura (Craig
Stevenson)swear to protect and defend the Constitution
of Nova Roma.

I, Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura (Craig
Stevenson)further swear to fulfill the obligations and
responsibilities of the office of Legatus of Australia
Medius to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the
presence of the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people
and by their will and favor, do I accept the
position of Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura (Craig
Stevenson) and all the rights, privileges,
obligations,
and responsibilities attendant thereto.

May all of the gods, including my patron deity, Mars
Invictus, bless all of my activities, and grant me
fortune in my endeavours. And may my actions all
benefit Nova Roma!

Valete bene omnes,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

_____________________________________________________________________________
http://store.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Store
- It's time you had your business online!


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Name Change for Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus...
From:	SkaldElf@--------
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:18:27 EDT

Intresting name. I totally love it! Congratulations!

Aeternia


Subject:	[novaroma] Oath Of Office For Position of Legate of Australia Austroroientalis
From:	"Mark Bird" <markbird@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 16:13:06 +1000

Ave Quirites,

I, Marcus Sentius Claudius (Mark Anthony Bird) do hereby solemnly swear to
uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of
the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura (Craig
Stevenson) swear to honor the
Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman
Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Marcus Sentius Claudius (Mark Anthony Bird)swear to uphold and defend the
Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in
a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Marcus Sentius Claudius (Mark Anthony Bird) swear to protect and defend
the Constitution
of Nova Roma.

I, Marcus Sentius Claudius (Mark Anthony Bird) further swear to fulfill the
obligations and
responsibilities of the office of Legatus of Australia Austroroientalis to
the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and
Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the
position of Marcus Sentius Claudius (Mark Anthony Bird) and all the rights,
privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

Valete bene omnes,

Marcus Sentius Claudius


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Taxes and ideas (an addition reply to M. Octavius)
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 23:42:15 -0700

Salve Gai Senti;

A brief question for clarification; who is responsible for
the initial fee of $15-$20 per gens if such a measure
is adopted? Does the mater/pater come up donate
on behalf of the entire gens? Does the mater/pater
manage the tax collections?

Please note that I'm just asking for clarification
and not taking a position on it one way or another.
If I can understand the collection and responsibility
schedule more fully, then I can comment more accurately.

Bene vale,
Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Anguston [mailto:gaiussentius@--------]
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 8:26 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Taxes and ideas (an addition reply to M. Octavius)

Ave Marcus Octavius et omnes,

I'm not adverse to paying the $12.00 per year, but I
think that I am more in favor of the gens tax that
Lucius Equitius proposed earlier on. That being, that
gens pay a reasonable fee (say $15-$20) and each
additional member pays $2-$4 each. One of the reasons
that I am in favour of this is that it spares those
who do not wish to have to fork out that amount of
money on account of the fact that they participate
rarely, and those for who (and I know someone who is
in this predicament) has not seen anything like a
AUS$20 note in his wallet for a long time, since he
pays his way through University, his internet access
is government funded, and is currently poorer than a
man who remembers the last cash he had were peices of
eight!:-) The other reasons is that for gens with only
one member, it equals out the tax ratio, but with gens
with larger members, it still brings in quite an
income

<snipped>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] CANADA OCCIDENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER FIFTEEN
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 00:14:02 -0700

Salvete Quinte et Gai Vipsani;

Congratulations Gai Vipsani on your appointment as
Praeco Aranei! I look forward to seeing how you build
on the initial structure of the website.

Bene valete,
Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: Quintus Sertorius [mailto:quintus-sertorius@--------]
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 6:47 AM
To: novaroma@--------; NR_CanOcc@--------
Subject: [novaroma] CANADA OCCIDENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER FIFTEEN

CANADA OCCIDENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER FIFTEEN

APPOINTMENT OF PRAECO ARANEI CANADA OCCIDENTALIS

21 Apr 2001

Salve All

<snipped>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes, keeping citizens and implementing a certain limited con...
From:	QFabiusMax@--------
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 03:34:50 EDT

In a message dated 4/21/2001 9:13:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
gaiussentius@-------- writes:

<< You know what I find really irritating? I post an
alternative suggestion to the current taxation system,
one which is based on a gens tax + extra for each
other member of a gens, and nothing is said about it,
not even the slightest hint of discussion. <<

Salve Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura!
As the one person who pushed for taxation since joining NR, I thought of this
scheme two years ago. The problem basically comes down to the Paterfamilias

being honor bound by his dignatis to pay for all those Gens members, who
cannot afford the tax. While this is no big deal to someone like me who can
afford to cover his Gens, what about the Cornelii? What you would be doing
would force the downsizing of the Gens to affordable numbers. Since the Gens
are the building block of Rome, we should be increasing their sizes, not
decreasing.
I thought my two tiered tax system submitted to the Senate last year was very
fair, and more important, doable. Alas it was not PC enough for some people.

Vale
Q. Fabius Maximus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Blues carry!
From:	QFabiusMax@--------
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 03:52:30 EDT

Salvete!
In honor of the traditional founding day of Rome (a.d. XI Kal. Maius) at the
Historical
Miniature Gaming Society today we held the commemorative miniature chariot
race.
I am happy to report that after 6 laps the Blues (my team) won, with the
Whites coming in second.
I am unhappy to report that boxer Lenix Lewis was KO in the 5th round, by a
virtual unknown, and so I lost a fair amount of sesterii.
The gambling life of a Roman.

Valete,
Q. Fabius Maximus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A new Sodality...? (long)
From:	"Jeroen Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 10:36:14 +0200

Salve Iasone Serene,

I think this Sodalitas proposal would be a little superfluous; the things
you describe are already covered by the Sodalitas Latinitatis, the Sodalitas
Musarum and the philosophy list (which I would like to become a Sodalitas,
if there would be more activity there).

Vale bene,
Sextus Apollonius Draco,
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
Darkling_Crawler, Yahoo IM

"Come, fly the teeth of the wind; share my wings" (FSOL)


Subject:	[novaroma] Taxes, a hybrid proposal
From:	"Jeroen Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 10:34:21 +0200

Salvete Quirites,

We've seen many good and bad proposals about taxes float around here on the
main list. Personally, I think we should combine the following three
proposals:

1. The one of Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, that seemed overall pretty fair and
thorough
2. The one of Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus with the gens tax
3. Lucius Sicinius Drusus' idea about a voluntarily Religio contribution

And if I might add another point: instead of having one central treasury,
how about each continent having one?

Valete bene,
Draco


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes, a hybrid proposal
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:51:17 -0700

Ave,

As a Senator I would vote against one. Given the recent issue with
Britannia we lack the controls of having a provincial treasury.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Jeroen Meuleman wrote:
>
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> We've seen many good and bad proposals about taxes float around here on the
> main list. Personally, I think we should combine the following three
> proposals:
>
> 1. The one of Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, that seemed overall pretty fair and
> thorough
> 2. The one of Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus with the gens tax
> 3. Lucius Sicinius Drusus' idea about a voluntarily Religio contribution
>
> And if I might add another point: instead of having one central treasury,
> how about each continent having one?
>
> Valete bene,
> Draco
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes, a hybrid proposal
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:52:48 -0700

I meant to add I would vote against the proposal of Draco's. Sorry
about the typo.

Sulla Felix

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix wrote:
>
> Ave,
>
> As a Senator I would vote against one. Given the recent issue with
> Britannia we lack the controls of having a provincial treasury.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> Jeroen Meuleman wrote:
> >
> > Salvete Quirites,
> >
> > We've seen many good and bad proposals about taxes float around here on the
> > main list. Personally, I think we should combine the following three
> > proposals:
> >
> > 1. The one of Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, that seemed overall pretty fair and
> > thorough
> > 2. The one of Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus with the gens tax
> > 3. Lucius Sicinius Drusus' idea about a voluntarily Religio contribution
> >
> > And if I might add another point: instead of having one central treasury,
> > how about each continent having one?
> >
> > Valete bene,
> > Draco
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes, a hybrid proposal
From:	"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 11:29:36 +0200

Salvete,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix wrote:

> Ave,

>

> As a Senator I would vote against one. Given the recent issue with

> Britannia we lack the controls of having a provincial treasury.

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

>

Ok, Britannia IS a big problem but I think we rather should take
measures that this cannot be reproduced instead of just sweeping it off
the table.

Nova Roma Inc. is a company. If someone steals money from it, it should
be able to legally claim it back. What has been done on this issue?

I for one AM approving the local tax-collection system. Because I know
that sending money around will cost a lot of money. And I'm not talking
of 10% of the money sent, but I'm talking of an initial fee of 20+$ for
sending money to a foreign banking account. Now if I am allowed to
deduce these expenditures from my taxes (as it has been suggested
earlier on the list), I might as well just NOT pay the taxes.

All American citizens listen please: in Europe it IS A PAIN to send
money abroad so opening a banking account in the name of Nova Roma Inc.
in EVERY country where a fair number of citizens live should be the
right solution.

The legate and the governor should both be responsible for the accounts
within their region. If we don't trust them, what is the Oath Of Office
for, after all?

In addition, isn't it better to have the eggs in several baskets? Imagine

if the Britannica problem would happen on the central tresory? I don't say

the People holding the tresory right now are not good people, but in a
few years, when Nova Roma Inc. will have lots of money, this cannot be
excluded. So rather have several banking accounts all over the world
than only one at one central place. It has lots of advantages.

Valete bene,

Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus

> Jeroen Meuleman wrote:

>

>>Salvete Quirites,

>>

>>We've seen many good and bad proposals about taxes float around here on the

>>main list. Personally, I think we should combine the following three

>>proposals:

>>

>>1. The one of Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, that seemed overall pretty fair and

>>thorough

>>2. The one of Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus with the gens tax

>>3. Lucius Sicinius Drusus' idea about a voluntarily Religio contribution

>>

>>And if I might add another point: instead of having one central treasury,

>>how about each continent having one?

>>

>>Valete bene,

>>Draco

--
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
Friburgii Helvetiorum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes, a hybrid proposal
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 02:41:19 -0700

Ave,

Well that is the point of having discussions. BUT and I am saying this
as a Senator, Magistrate, and a student of business who has ran a few
businesses and has an MBA. We should not even consider the idea of
local provincial treasuries until we have controls in place. If
magistrates who have taken Oaths of office, hold religious positions
and are even brought into the Senate which would then make them members
of the board of directors of Nova Roma. Embezzle money from Nova Roma
without any recourse left for the central government of Nova Roma to
recover those embezzled funds. I cannot in my conscious vote for a plan
that has local treasuries. Regardless if it is difficult for people of
other countries to send in finances to NR. At least the money would get
to NR. Not be embezzled as it has been done in Britannia.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" wrote:
>
> Salvete,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix wrote:
>
> > Ave,
>
> >
>
> > As a Senator I would vote against one. Given the recent issue with
>
> > Britannia we lack the controls of having a provincial treasury.
>
> >
>
> > Respectfully,
>
> >
>
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> >
>
> Ok, Britannia IS a big problem but I think we rather should take
> measures that this cannot be reproduced instead of just sweeping it off
> the table.
>
> Nova Roma Inc. is a company. If someone steals money from it, it should
> be able to legally claim it back. What has been done on this issue?
>
> I for one AM approving the local tax-collection system. Because I know
> that sending money around will cost a lot of money. And I'm not talking
> of 10% of the money sent, but I'm talking of an initial fee of 20+$ for
> sending money to a foreign banking account. Now if I am allowed to
> deduce these expenditures from my taxes (as it has been suggested
> earlier on the list), I might as well just NOT pay the taxes.
>
> All American citizens listen please: in Europe it IS A PAIN to send
> money abroad so opening a banking account in the name of Nova Roma Inc.
> in EVERY country where a fair number of citizens live should be the
> right solution.
>
> The legate and the governor should both be responsible for the accounts
> within their region. If we don't trust them, what is the Oath Of Office
> for, after all?
>
> In addition, isn't it better to have the eggs in several baskets? Imagine
>
> if the Britannica problem would happen on the central tresory? I don't say
>
> the People holding the tresory right now are not good people, but in a
> few years, when Nova Roma Inc. will have lots of money, this cannot be
> excluded. So rather have several banking accounts all over the world
> than only one at one central place. It has lots of advantages.
>
> Valete bene,
>
> Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
>
> > Jeroen Meuleman wrote:
>
> >
>
> >>Salvete Quirites,
>
> >>
>
> >>We've seen many good and bad proposals about taxes float around here on the
>
> >>main list. Personally, I think we should combine the following three
>
> >>proposals:
>
> >>
>
> >>1. The one of Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, that seemed overall pretty fair and
>
> >>thorough
>
> >>2. The one of Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus with the gens tax
>
> >>3. Lucius Sicinius Drusus' idea about a voluntarily Religio contribution
>
> >>
>
> >>And if I might add another point: instead of having one central treasury,
>
> >>how about each continent having one?
>
> >>
>
> >>Valete bene,
>
> >>Draco
>
> --
> Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
> Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
> Friburgii Helvetiorum
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes, a hybrid proposal
From:	"Jeroen Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:05:28 +0200

Salve, O Censor,

>
> Well that is the point of having discussions. BUT and I am saying this
> as a Senator, Magistrate, and a student of business who has ran a few
> businesses and has an MBA. We should not even consider the idea of
> local provincial treasuries until we have controls in place. If
> magistrates who have taken Oaths of office, hold religious positions
> and are even brought into the Senate which would then make them members
> of the board of directors of Nova Roma. Embezzle money from Nova Roma
> without any recourse left for the central government of Nova Roma to
> recover those embezzled funds. I cannot in my conscious vote for a plan
> that has local treasuries. Regardless if it is difficult for people of
> other countries to send in finances to NR. At least the money would get
> to NR. Not be embezzled as it has been done in Britannia.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Nothing tells me the same can't happen in America. I wasn't talking about
�provincial� but �continental� treasuries, by the way. In this way, if
multiple macronations were involved, it would reduce the chance of running
away with our money. But as Gaius Noviodunus says, it is a real pain for us
in Europe to send money to America. What if it gets lost underway? What if
it arrives too late and I'm downgraded to fifth century? Those are serious
issues.

Vale bene,
Draco


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes, a hybrid proposal
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 03:11:05 -0700

Jeroen Meuleman wrote:
>
> Salve, O Censor,
>
> >
> > Well that is the point of having discussions. BUT and I am saying this
> > as a Senator, Magistrate, and a student of business who has ran a few
> > businesses and has an MBA. We should not even consider the idea of
> > local provincial treasuries until we have controls in place. If
> > magistrates who have taken Oaths of office, hold religious positions
> > and are even brought into the Senate which would then make them members
> > of the board of directors of Nova Roma. Embezzle money from Nova Roma
> > without any recourse left for the central government of Nova Roma to
> > recover those embezzled funds. I cannot in my conscious vote for a plan
> > that has local treasuries. Regardless if it is difficult for people of
> > other countries to send in finances to NR. At least the money would get
> > to NR. Not be embezzled as it has been done in Britannia.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> Nothing tells me the same can't happen in America. I wasn't talking about
> �provincial� but �continental� treasuries, by the way. In this way, if
> multiple macronations were involved, it would reduce the chance of running
> away with our money. But as Gaius Noviodunus says, it is a real pain for us
> in Europe to send money to America. What if it gets lost underway? What if
> it arrives too late and I'm downgraded to fifth century? Those are serious
> issues.

Ave,

There is a better chance to recover funds in America given it is in the
same company we are incorporated in. But, granted yes..you are correct
the possiblity does exist. However, the point I am making is that it
ALREADY has happened. Now that the problem has occurred we need to
resolve it. Wouldnt you think it would be more prudent to find a way to
prevent this from happening before we implement various provincial or
contiental tax structures?

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes, keeping citizens and implementing a certain limited controll
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:39:02 +0200

>Ave omnes,
>
>You know what I find really irritating? I post an
>alternative suggestion to the current taxation system,
>one which is based on a gens tax + extra for each
>other member of a gens, and nothing is said about it,
>not even the slightest hint of discussion.

Salve Honorable Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura!

It was no intention of mine to give You the impression that I ignore any
opinion of anybody, and absolutely not your opinion as I know You to be a
very dedicated and serious citizen. My problem , as I have stated before is
that I have very little time, most of my time goes to Nova Roma and most of
that time I give to my Provincia - Thule. When I take time to take part in
the discussions on the main list, I try to be constructive. That leads to
to stating my point of view or proposals. Sorry, no nonchalance intended!

When it comes to the proposal of using the gens as a base of taxation. I
just don't support it! First I agree with my pater " The problem basically
comes down to the Paterfamilias being honor bound by his dignatis to pay
for all those Gens members, who cannot afford the tax." Secondly I don't
see it as a practical solution, as most gens are often spread over
continents. Thirdly there isn't any practical basis for the Pater Familias
to keep the Gens together when it comes to economy.

I want to base my taxation system on the Provincia and the fact that as we
really will need a provincial tax to, among other things, support
face-to-face meetings. The Provincia thus will already have some
infrastructure to tax its citizens, let's use it to get the central taxes
into the central treasury!

I hope that You can appreciate the fact that my behavior is in no way
intended to insult You or anybody else.

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
Join the List for the Thule Provincia in Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://www.acc.umu.se/~kerish/novaroma/main.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
Using a keyboard that don't want to make L! :-(
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Festival
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:03:22 -0000

Salve Marce Armini:

The day is not over yet :)

And I am sure there is a logical explanation for the delay in Festival
Announcement.

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia

>From: "Marcos Boehme" <m_arminius@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: [novaroma] Festival
>Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:50:15 -0300
>
>Salve, Coryphaeus Musarum
>
>Nothing new from the winners of each Collegia?
>Perhaps i need to catch someone to receive the Cerealia Laurel without
>waiting the Musarum...
>Perhaps we can forget the formalities and select the winners nominally,
>without the rogatores...
>By the way, what are all the participants of our festival? I will forward
>to our Aediles Curules.
>
>Vale
>Marcus Arminius Maior
>Aedilis Plebis
>
>
>
>
>Get 250 color business cards for FREE!
>http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Announcement of Cerealia Winner
From:	Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 14:25:43 +0200

M. Apollonio Formosano atque M. Arminio Maiori Aedilibus plebeis Lucilla
Cornelia Cinna salutem dicit plurimam gratiasque maximas agit -- salvete
Quirites!

Today, running down those hundreds of mails that have accumulated in my
mailbox, while I was sick, I received the news to be elected as winner
of the Cerealia. I cannot tell you how happy and thankful I am ...

Thank you all for your kind words.
All I can say, is that I am proud to have taken part in this contest in
honor of Ceres, a Goddess so invaluable and kind as being the one who
gives us the grain for our daily bread, and Polyhymnia, the Muse of
sacred verse - and I am thankful for being inspired by the immortals.

Di Deaeque semper nos bene protegant.

Lucilla Cornelia Cinna

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Name Change for Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus...
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 07:40:06 -0500

Caska it is, friend!
QS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Aurelius Tiberius" <kminer_rsg@-------->
To: <lucillacornelia@-------->; <shinjikun@shinjikun.com>;
<jana@-------->; <novaroma@yahoogroups.com>;
<qimaster1@-------->; <Airyes2549@aol.com>; <Iulia66198@aol.com>;
<kyrene@-------->; <quintus@onebox.com>; <sardonicus_@hotmail.com>;
<PaulFitsik@-------->; <Legio_VI@egroups.com>;
<COHORTES_EQUITATAE@-------->; <SodalitasMilitarium@-------->;
<quintus-sertorius@-------->; <tedzgunz@a-znet.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 3:29 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Name Change for Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus...

> Salve all,
>
> It is with a great bit of pride that I announce the Censors of our great
> nation have approved my request to change my name. when I came to NR my
> initial request was changed to the current name used. After the Censors'
> leanancy and good nature, they have allowed me to change it to my first
> request (and to what has always been my reenactment name!!)
>
> Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus
>
> in now
>
> Cascus Tiberius Rufio Longinus
>
> Long live the Republic and Gens Tiberia!!!
>
> Vale,
>
> Caska... (nick name!!)
>
>
>
> Cascus Tiberius Rufio Longinus
> Praefectus Legionis & Tribuni Militum
> Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis
> & Cornicularius,Sodalitas Militarium et Nova Roma
> Pater, Gens Tiberia of Nova Roma
>
> "Nos Sumus Romae milites, parati stamus ad potestatem et gloriam eius.
Roma
> est Lux."
> "we are soldiers of Rome, for her might and glory we stand ready... She is
> the Light"
>
> www.geocities.com/legio_vi
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Taxes and ideas (an addition reply to M. Octavius)
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 23 Apr 2001 00:24:43 +1000 (EST)

Ave Oppius,

The gens fee would more than likely be paid by the
pater/materfamilias, though I think in the larger gens
perhaps people could ask contributions from their gens
members (those who may be able to pay, that is).

Vale bene,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura
Legatus Australia Medius

--- Oppius Flaccus Severus <oppiusflaccus@-------->
wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Salve Gai Senti; 
 
A brief question for clarification; who is responsible
for 
the initial fee of $15-$20 per gens if such a
measure 
is adopted? Does the mater/pater come up donate 
on behalf of the entire gens? Does the mater/pater 
manage the tax collections? 
 
Please note that I'm just asking for clarification 
and not taking a position on it one way or
another. 
If I can understand the collection and
responsibility 
schedule more fully, then I can comment more
accurately. 
 
Bene vale, 
Oppius 
-----Original Message----- 
From: Jerry Anguston
[mailto:gaiussentius@--------] 
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 8:26 PM 
To: novaroma@-------- 
Subject: [novaroma] Taxes and ideas (an addition reply
to M. Octavius) 
 
 
Ave Marcus Octavius et omnes, 
 
I'm not adverse to paying the $12.00 per year, but
I 
think that I am more in favor of the gens tax that 
Lucius Equitius proposed earlier on. That being,
that 
gens pay a reasonable fee (say $15-$20) and each 
additional member pays $2-$4 each. One of the
reasons 
that I am in favour of this is that it spares
those 
who do not wish to have to fork out that amount of 
money on account of the fact that they participate 
rarely, and those for who (and I know someone who
is 
in this predicament) has not seen anything like a 
AUS$20 note in his wallet for a long time, since
he 
pays his way through University, his internet
access 
is government funded, and is currently poorer than
a 
man who remembers the last cash he had were peices
of 
eight!:-) The other reasons is that for gens with
only 
one member, it equals out the tax ratio, but with
gens 
with larger members, it still brings in quite an 
income 
 
<snipped> 
 
 
[Non-text portions of this message have been
removed] 
 
</tt>

 



<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"


Subject:	[novaroma] Delayed Taxation
From:	iasonvs_serenvs@--------
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 14:35:08 -0000

Salvete Omnes,

It seems there is enough consenus to support some variation of a tax
system, and bravo to that. In case someone has already stated the
following, please accept my apology in advance. Although funding is
necessary to the growth of Nova Roma, and to the success of its
wordly mission, I believe that an initial or immediate membership tax
would work in opposition to this goal. I know this has been said
elsewhere, and by persons wiser than I. I would merely like to offer
an illustration to support that point.

If the city of Boston passed an ordinance tomorrow that required
immediate payment of taxes before a person or family could take up
residence, Boston would see its immigration signifigantly decline.
If the City Fathers desire such an end, than they have passed there
measure with abundant foresight. If, instead, they have enacted this
law simply to further fund the day to day operations of the city, it
would prove to be a rather dry pecuniary source.

Most communities assess their taxes yearly, on a date established by
law. Not that precedent must necessarily govern the deliberations of
the Senate or the People of Nova Roma, but we might take a page from
the annals of already successful municipalities. (I do not
necessarily include the City of Boston in this list...)

We aspire to genuine nationhood, no? If so, immediate taxation would
put a spike in the heart of that aspiration.

This is by no means a commentary on how taxes should be collected,
when so, or in what manner. I just wanted to make a very limited
point about a very limited aspect of the much larger issue.

With Gratitude,

Ias. Serenvs


Subject:	[novaroma] Fwd: ] Hear Ye!!! Provincia Reenactment Gathering
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:28:11 -0000

Salvete Omnes!

I forward this post to the mainlist for the benefit of those who may be in
the area, but are not subscribed to a provincia list to receive this
information otherwise. I thank you for your indulgence.

Valete,
Pompeia Cornelia

>From: "Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
>Reply-To: NovaBritannia@--------
>To: GreatLakesNovaRoma@--------, Mediatlantica@--------,
>NovaBritannia@--------, SodalitasMilitarium@--------,
>Legio_VI@--------, NR_CanOcc@--------
>Subject: [NovaBritannia] Hear Ye!!! Provincia Reenactment Gathering
>Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:14:19 -0000
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Pompeia Cornelia" <trog99@-------->
> >To: scriba_forum@--------
> >Subject: Provincia Reenactment Gathering
> >Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 20:50:32 -0400
> >
> >Salvete Omnes!!!:
> >
> >Please be advised of a Canada Orientalis-sponsored Provincial Gathering
> >planned for August of this year.
> >
> >A gathering of Nova Roma citizens is planned to meet at the Fort Malden,
> >Ontario Timeline Military/Historical Reenactment Event in Amheartburg,
> >Ontario August 3, 4. and 5.
> >
> >Where the heck is Amhearstburg??? Well, it is a town in Ontario right
> >along the Detroit River, close to the Windsor/Detroit Border.
> >
> >Some of us will be staying over, and likely some folks will just come out
> >for the day.
> >
> >
> >
> >Commander Legion XXIV MA et Praefectus Sodalitas Militarium Galleo
> >Marcallus Velius attends this event annually, and in keeping with his
> >tradition, is apparently attending this year (what a collection of
>helmets,
> >and equipment he has...not to mention a headful of knowledge about Rome:)
> >:)
> >
> >Matter of fact, the man has BEEN to Rome!
> >
> >
> >Anyway, Fort Malden is a reconstructed British Fort set in a campground.
> >The event has a military theme from various historical periods, but is
>not
> >exclusive to military reenactment.
> >
> >The coordinator's quote is "we offer reenactors of all time periods a
> >beautiful venue to do quality living history presentations for our
> >visitors" (the general public).
> >
> >In my estimation, this event is sadly amiss in one area:
> >THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH ROMANS!!!
> >
> >Although I intend to visit with everyone, I also intend to set up a
>display
> >table for Nova Roma, throw a few fliers around, some coins, that sort of
> >thing (in proper attire, of course).
> >
> >There is no cost for us to set up a display. All they would like is a
>few
> >pictures........Hey, like, no prob!! Fancy that.....so do I!!!
> >
> >There are campgrounds and meals available on site.....it looks like meals
> >are around $5.00. Camping is $12.00 per night, and there are showers and
> >firewood available ).
> >
> >General admission to the public is $2.75/person
> >
> >IF THAT ISN'T YOUR CUP OF FALERNIAN........
> >
> >There are hotels in the area, ranging from $54.00 - $69.00 single and
> >$65.00 - $80.00 double. The one hotel for $65.00 has a kitchenette and
>two
> >double beds, so they charge $6.00 nightly per person.
> >
> >Prices are all in Canadian Funds.
> >
> >Hey that's cheap!!!!!! And for you American buddies.......well, it's
>like
> >you are not paying at all!!!!
> >
> >So all you have to worry about is getting yourselves on up here to have a
> >bit of fun. Amhearstburg is easily accessed from Lacus Magnii Nova
> >Britannia, and in some cases Mediatlantica et Canada
> >Occidentalis........HINT.......HINT !!!!!!
> >
> >This could really be a BLAST!!!
> >
> >I would like to know who is coming, what days you are coming, what kind
>of
> >accommodation you are looking at, by June 15, because I would like to
>book
> >the hotel rooms in advance to ensure we have them, plus campgrounds, plus
> >there is an application to fill out. I actually have til mid July to do
> >application, but hmm, to get a hotel room or a camp spot is something I
> >hesitate to leave too long. What I am saying IS...you are taking your
> >chances by letting me know too much later than June 15.
> >
> >Apparently, we can show up at Fort Malden anytime after noon on Friday
> >August 3.
> >
> >If you have any further questions, please contact me at the above
>address,
> >and I shall get back to you ASAP......
> >
> >I will repost this information near the end of May to remind you all.
> >
> >Wouldn't this be nice if we could make this an ANNUAL event??
> >
> >Oh Boy!!!
> >
> >Bene vale,
> >Pompeia Cornelia
> >Propraetrix, pro temp
> >Canada Orientalis
> >
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


Subject:	[novaroma] Provinciae (was Taxes, a hybrid proposal)
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 15:08:23 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@e...>
wrote:
> Ave,
>
> Well that is the point of having discussions. BUT and I am saying
this
> as a Senator, Magistrate, and a student of business who has ran a
few
> businesses and has an MBA. We should not even consider the idea of
> local provincial treasuries until we have controls in place. If
> magistrates who have taken Oaths of office, hold religious
positions
> and are even brought into the Senate which would then make them
members
> of the board of directors of Nova Roma. Embezzle money from Nova
Roma
> without any recourse left for the central government of Nova Roma to
> recover those embezzled funds. I cannot in my conscious vote for a
plan
> that has local treasuries. Regardless if it is difficult for
people of
> other countries to send in finances to NR. At least the money
would get
> to NR. Not be embezzled as it has been done in Britannia.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>

Salve

Having looked at the records from when the provinciae were first set
up, I wouldn't want to go into a court with that kind of
documentation.

I would suggest that the best course of action would be a new
consulta that disolved all existing provinciae (just to clear the
ground) and then recreated them. The "new" provinces should be vested
with a charter that clearly stated that they were no more than
adminstrative arms of the Senate of Nova Roma.

Having a clear legal document that spelled out the provinces
relationship to Nova Roma and that contained safegaurds about the
funds would go a long way towards preventing a future recurrance of
the situation that the renegades have created in Brittania.

It may also be a good idea to look into incorparating Nova Roma in
one of the EEC Macronations so that Nova Roma will have a better
legal standing before courts of these Macronations. This is a common
practice among multi-national companies and IMHO Nova Roma should
follow this practice.

This would make it possible for Nova Roma to handle it's affairs in
Europe with a local branch of the treasury, and the Taxes in most of
Europe could be collected in Euros which would help solve the
exchange problems.

Vale
L. Sicinius Drusus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A new Sodality...? (long)
From:	Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 08:15:34 -0700 (PDT)

Ave Aeternia,

Yes and no. Are there aspects of redundancy?
Absolutely. A college and a symphony orchestra have
different purposes, but often draw from singular
sources.

As a proposal, and merely as a proposal which is why I
didn't incorporate, or found an egroup, I hope to
engage some small thread of conversation TOWARDS an
actual collegia philosphica (forgive bad Ltn).

thank you for your comments, and anticipated reply,

Iasonvs
--- SkaldElf@-------- wrote:
> Ave,
>
> Now you can correct me if I'm wrong Iasonus. But it
> sounds to me that this
> Sodality you are wishing to form, is a combination
> of many previously
> established Sodalitas'. Just my opinion feel free to
> clarify me.
>
> Vale,
> Aeternia
>

=====
Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs Peregrinvs
(this is a post for which I accept all responsibility)
"The cosmos works by harmony of tensions, like the lyre and the bow."
"Time is a game played beautifully by children."
Heraclitus of Ephesus
HeraclitusFreehold@--------

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] articles (long)
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 16:59:52 +0100 (BST)

Salvete

Here are some links to articles about ancient Rome, I
have them from the Explorator Newsletter.

--------------------

The Times reports on the restoration of Trajan's arch
at Benevento:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,3-113354,00.html

The Independent reports on plans to locate and
excavate a Roman ship which sank in the Tyne estuary:

http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=67471

This was actually announced already within the last
year or so, but a group at Stanford is going to use
computer technology to reassemble the Forum Urbis:

http://sanjose.bcentral.com/sanjose/stories/2001/04/16/daily37.html

A large section of the Aurelian wall in Rome collapsed
this week:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1280000/1280611.stm
http://news.24.com/News24/Technology/Science_Nature/0,1113,2-13-46_1011661,00.html
http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/world.cfm?id=64721
http://my.cnn.com/jbcl/cnews/Go?template=otmDetStory&art_id=6690997&uid=987437873088&page_exclude=1

CLASSICIST'S CORNER

The Times has a piece on the benefits of a classical
education (in
anticipation
of the meeting of the Classical Association):

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,7-116056,00.html

... and Hollywood's depiction of gladiators:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-117357,00.html

eKathimerini has an article on learning ancient Greek
via the internet:

http://www.eKathimerini.com/news/content.asp?id=79064

... and what's on at Herodes Atticus' theatre in the
next month or so:

http://www.eKathimerini.com/news/content.asp?id=79032

The Independent has a piece on the fifty best places
to see in Rome
(with
links!):

http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=67582

... and a passing mention on the influence of
Thucydides on Colin
Powell:

http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=67848

I'm not sure what to make of this one ... claims of
Egyptians in the
FYROM:

http://www.eKathimerini.com/news/content.asp?id=79017

Folks might be interested (for comparative purposes)
in the Christian
version
of the torch race:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=003100565149417&rtmo=qxbLKd99&atmo=99999999&pg=/et/01/4/16/wholy16.html

... and a new 'Slavocentric' view of history:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=003100565149417&rtmo=asbXxHwL&atmo=99999999&pg=/et/01/4/19/warth19.html

The University of Pennsylvania's Museum of Archaeology
has discovered
some
Ming art in its storage rooms:

http://worldnews.about.com/newsissues/worldnews/gi/news/~5a0e214.htm?PM=n3042001e

The hype is beginning in anticipation of the official
opening of the
new
Library at Alexandria:

http://www.uk.sis.gov.eg/online/html4/o150421y.htm
http://www.uk.sis.gov.eg/online/html4/o170421p.htm

EXPLORATOR IS ARCHIVED AT:
http://www.onelist.com/archive/Explorator
<url:http://www.onelist.com/archive/Explorator>

]|[================================================================]|[
EXPLORATOR is a weekly newsletter representing the
fruits of the
labours
of
'media research division' of The Atrium. Various
on-line news and
magazine
sources are scoured on a daily basis for news of the
ancient world
(broadly
construed: practically anything relating to
archaeology or history
prior
to about 1700 or so is fair game) and when a
sufficient number of urls
are
gathered (usually a minimum of three stories), they
are delivered to
your
mailbox free of charge! Those articles that don't
expire, plus
supplementary links eventually find a home at:

The Media Archive (just going up):

http://atrium-media.com/mediaarchive.html

]|[================================================================]|[

Explorator is Copyright (c) 2001 David Meadows; Feel
free to
distribute these listings via email to your pals,
students, teachers,
etc., but please include this copyright notice. These
listings are not
to
be posted to a website; instead, please provide a link
to either
Commentarium or Rostra (or both)! You can subscribe to
or unsubscribe
from
this list by going to the following web page:
http://www.yahoogroups.com/subscribe.cgi/Explorator

Or, send by sending a blank email message to:
mailto:Explorator-subscribe@--------

or
mailto:Explorator-unsubscribe@--------

--------------------

Valete

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
civis Novae Romae
____________________________

"De te autem, Catilina, cum quiescunt, probant; cum patiuntur, decernunt; cum tacent, clamant." (M. Tullius Cicero: In Catilinam I, 20)

____________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes, a hybrid proposal
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:15:46 EDT

Salvete Omnes

I stand in agreement with Lucius Cornelius. I feel strongly that
provincial funds and central government funds should be kept separately.
Nova Roma should keep its funds centrally.

Valete,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

On 4/22/01 3:51 AM Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix (alexious@--------)
wrote:

>Ave,
>
>As a Senator I would vote against one. Given the recent issue with
>Britannia we lack the controls of having a provincial treasury.
>
>Respectfully,
>
>Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
>Jeroen Meuleman wrote:
>>
SNIPPED
>> And if I might add another point: instead of having one central treasury,
>> how about each continent having one?
>>
>> Valete bene,
>> Draco
>>

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes, keeping citizens and implementing a certain limited controll
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:15:45 EDT

Salve Gaius Sentius

Don't take it personally! Do you not realize that this discussion has
been going on since long before you arrived on the scene? Many proposals,
including some for taxation by gens, have been talked about at length. We
have always come back to the principle of each individual citizen paying
a tax.

How would you set the tax for a gens? There are two members of the Sergii
and AFAIK three of the Vedii. There seem to be at least a hundred of the
Cornelii. Would all gentes pay the same gens tax? I think not! It would
depend on the number of members of each gens? Then you are still taxing
individuals but making the gens responsible for collecting from them.

Guess what - I myself proposed that one probably two years ago. There was
little interest in it then. I don't like it now. It would complicate what
would remain a system of individually-based taxation, and it would make
each paterfamilias or materfamilias a tax collector.

I am also not in favor of a portion of the tax remaining in the
Provinciae. Let us each render unto the Republic what is the Republic's,
and let the Provincia decide if and what the Provincia will collect
separately from its members. That way there will be no Nova Roman tax
funds sitting in the province to be stolen.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust.

On 4/21/01 11:12 PM Jerry Anguston (gaiussentius@--------) wrote:

>Ave omnes,
>
>You know what I find really irritating? I post an
>alternative suggestion to the current taxation system,
>one which is based on a gens tax + extra for each
>other member of a gens, and nothing is said about it,
>not even the slightest hint of discussion. It is as if
>we have already completely decided on this form of
>taxation with very little discussion on other more
>direct forms of taxation which, seem to me at least,
>to be fairer, as they would take the burden off of
>others and allow NR to still make a decent profit. I
>still do, and will always stand by my thoughts that
>the system suggested by our censor Lucius Equitius of
>gens taxation is the fairest system so far (with
>perhaps an adjustment so that gens members pay about
>$2-$4, and the gens tax set at about $15 - $18
>perhaps). The amount of single person gens in NR would
>see that this system would work out about the same as
>the other system that is being discussed at the
>moment.
>
>Please write your opinions,
>
>Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura
>

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes, a hybrid proposal
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:15:48 EDT

Salve Draco

Note that we have no "continental" officals nor any such level of
government. Who would be responsible for the "continental treasury?" In
Australia it would be another provincial treasury. Everywhere else it
would require the creation of another level of government.

And what purpose would it serve? It can be complicated to send money
between states on the same continent. Banks in Mississippi are unable to
cash checks drawn on Canadian banks. We will have to use the same methods
that international commerce uses, such as electronic payment. Of course
not everybody will be able to do that, so we will have to have multiple
ways to do it.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

On 4/22/01 5:05 AM Jeroen Meuleman (hendrik.meuleman@--------) wrote:

>Salve, O Censor,
>
>>
>> Well that is the point of having discussions. BUT and I am saying this
>> as a Senator, Magistrate, and a student of business who has ran a few
>> businesses and has an MBA. We should not even consider the idea of
>> local provincial treasuries until we have controls in place. If
>> magistrates who have taken Oaths of office, hold religious positions
>> and are even brought into the Senate which would then make them members
>> of the board of directors of Nova Roma. Embezzle money from Nova Roma
>> without any recourse left for the central government of Nova Roma to
>> recover those embezzled funds. I cannot in my conscious vote for a plan
>> that has local treasuries. Regardless if it is difficult for people of
>> other countries to send in finances to NR. At least the money would get
>> to NR. Not be embezzled as it has been done in Britannia.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>>
>> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>Nothing tells me the same can't happen in America. I wasn't talking about
>(deg)provincial(deg) but (deg)continental(deg) treasuries, by the way. In
this way, if
>multiple macronations were involved, it would reduce the chance of running
>away with our money. But as Gaius Noviodunus says, it is a real pain for us
>in Europe to send money to America. What if it gets lost underway? What if
>it arrives too late and I'm downgraded to fifth century? Those are serious
>issues.
>
>Vale bene,
>Draco
>

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A new Sodality...? (long)
From:	SkaldElf@--------
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:31:22 EDT

Salve,

For one who performs and conducts in a symphony orchestra, I should
understand the gest of the idea. But I don't, so I'm going to agree with
Draco's comments in my own words. How about focusing on the present
sodalitas' already formed? There are some who could use some revitalization
in particular areas. This response may have been corny but I'm trying to get
the point across.

Vale,
Aeternia


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes, a hybrid proposal
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 10:08:42 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes!

Maybe a good solution would be to register Nova Roma as a nonprofit
corporation wherever we may have different treasuries. I am not sure of
the details, but that should be enough to provide securities against
embezzlement. And if a treasury in every province is too much, we could
make continental treasuries. It would be EXTREMELY expensive to pay
directly to a central treasury for overseas citizens, and I really
think that banking societies will survive without us giving our
precious money as a gift :-).

Gnaeus Salix Astur, civis romanus.

--- Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@--------> wrote:
> Ave,
>
> Well that is the point of having discussions. BUT and I am saying
> this
> as a Senator, Magistrate, and a student of business who has ran a few
> businesses and has an MBA. We should not even consider the idea of
> local provincial treasuries until we have controls in place. If
> magistrates who have taken Oaths of office, hold religious positions
> and are even brought into the Senate which would then make them
> members
> of the board of directors of Nova Roma. Embezzle money from Nova
> Roma
> without any recourse left for the central government of Nova Roma to
> recover those embezzled funds. I cannot in my conscious vote for a
> plan
> that has local treasuries. Regardless if it is difficult for people
> of
> other countries to send in finances to NR. At least the money would
> get
> to NR. Not be embezzled as it has been done in Britannia.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> "G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" wrote:
> >
> > Salvete,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix wrote:
> >
> > > Ave,
> >
> > >
> >
> > > As a Senator I would vote against one. Given the recent issue
> with
> >
> > > Britannia we lack the controls of having a provincial treasury.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Respectfully,
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >
> > >
> >
> > Ok, Britannia IS a big problem but I think we rather should take
> > measures that this cannot be reproduced instead of just sweeping it
> off
> > the table.
> >
> > Nova Roma Inc. is a company. If someone steals money from it, it
> should
> > be able to legally claim it back. What has been done on this issue?
> >
> > I for one AM approving the local tax-collection system. Because I
> know
> > that sending money around will cost a lot of money. And I'm not
> talking
> > of 10% of the money sent, but I'm talking of an initial fee of 20+$
> for
> > sending money to a foreign banking account. Now if I am allowed to
> > deduce these expenditures from my taxes (as it has been suggested
> > earlier on the list), I might as well just NOT pay the taxes.
> >
> > All American citizens listen please: in Europe it IS A PAIN to send
> > money abroad so opening a banking account in the name of Nova Roma
> Inc.
> > in EVERY country where a fair number of citizens live should be the
> > right solution.
> >
> > The legate and the governor should both be responsible for the
> accounts
> > within their region. If we don't trust them, what is the Oath Of
> Office
> > for, after all?
> >
> > In addition, isn't it better to have the eggs in several baskets?
> Imagine
> >
> > if the Britannica problem would happen on the central tresory? I
> don't say
> >
> > the People holding the tresory right now are not good people, but
> in a
> > few years, when Nova Roma Inc. will have lots of money, this cannot
> be
> > excluded. So rather have several banking accounts all over the
> world
> > than only one at one central place. It has lots of advantages.
> >
> > Valete bene,
> >
> > Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
> >
> > > Jeroen Meuleman wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>Salvete Quirites,
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>We've seen many good and bad proposals about taxes float around
> here on the
> >
> > >>main list. Personally, I think we should combine the following
> three
> >
> > >>proposals:
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>1. The one of Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, that seemed overall
> pretty fair and
> >
> > >>thorough
> >
> > >>2. The one of Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus with the gens tax
> >
> > >>3. Lucius Sicinius Drusus' idea about a voluntarily Religio
> contribution
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>And if I might add another point: instead of having one central
> treasury,
> >
> > >>how about each continent having one?
> >
> > >>
> >
> > >>Valete bene,
> >
> > >>Draco
> >
> > --
> > Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
> > Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
> > Friburgii Helvetiorum
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Provinciae (was Taxes, a hybrid proposal)
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 10:33:26 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes!

> Salve
>
> Having looked at the records from when the provinciae were first set
> up, I wouldn't want to go into a court with that kind of
> documentation.
>
> I would suggest that the best course of action would be a new
> consulta that disolved all existing provinciae (just to clear the
> ground) and then recreated them. The "new" provinces should be vested
>
> with a charter that clearly stated that they were no more than
> adminstrative arms of the Senate of Nova Roma.
>
> Having a clear legal document that spelled out the provinces
> relationship to Nova Roma and that contained safegaurds about the
> funds would go a long way towards preventing a future recurrance of
> the situation that the renegades have created in Brittania.

I guess this should not be strictly necessary. A new law, or
admendments to previous charters, would be an easier way to proceed.
It's hard enough to organize a Province just once, thank you :-).

>
> It may also be a good idea to look into incorparating Nova Roma in
> one of the EEC Macronations so that Nova Roma will have a better
> legal standing before courts of these Macronations. This is a common
> practice among multi-national companies and IMHO Nova Roma should
> follow this practice.
>
> This would make it possible for Nova Roma to handle it's affairs in
> Europe with a local branch of the treasury, and the Taxes in most of
> Europe could be collected in Euros which would help solve the
> exchange problems.
>
> Vale
> L. Sicinius Drusus

BTW, where have you been the last ten years? The EEC does no longer
exist. Today it's called European Union (EU/UE for short) ;-).

Of course, as I have stated in previous posts, I completely support
this opinion.

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes, a hybrid proposal
From:	"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 20:02:21 +0200

Gnaeus Salix Astur wrote:

> Salvete omnes!
>
> Maybe a good solution would be to register Nova Roma as a nonprofit
> corporation wherever we may have different treasuries.

Uh... nonprofit? what's the Macellum then?

--
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
Friburgii Helvetiorum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Blues carry!
From:	"J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 14:37:14 -0400

QFabiusMax@-------- wrote:

> Salvete!
> In honor of the traditional founding day of Rome (a.d. XI Kal. Maius) at the Historical
> Miniature Gaming Society today we held the commemorative miniature chariot race.
> I am happy to report that after 6 laps the Blues (my team) won, with the Whites coming in second.

Salvete omnes!
I'd always thought that the Blues' traditional opponents were the Greens, not the Whites. The Whites generally raced against the Reds.

Or are we having a sort of all-teams Nova Roma Series?

I certainly hope that noooobody stooped to using cursing defixiones against the charioteers, chariots, or horses of opposing teams......

Valete,
S. Ambrosia Fulvia


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Gods of the Underworld
From:	hadescallias@--------
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 18:25:42 -0000

i'm looking for the Gods of the Underworld from the pantheon of both
the Greeks and the Romans.
--- In novaroma@--------, SkaldElf@a... wrote:
> Ave,
>
> Are you looking for a specific pantheon? I can send you something
off-list,
> if you could clarify a bit more.
>
> Vale,
> Aeternia


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Gods of the Underworld
From:	SkaldElf@--------
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 15:25:23 EDT

Gotcha!


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Blues carry!
From:	Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 13:13:37 -0700 (PDT)

> QFabiusMax@-------- wrote:
>
> Salvete!
> In honor of the traditional founding day of Rome
> (a.d. XI Kal. Maius) at the Historical
> Miniature Gaming Society today we held the
> commemorative miniature chariot race.
> I am happy to report that after 6 laps the Blues
> (my team) won, with the Whites coming in second.

Exactly how did you go about this miniature chariot
race?

Optime valete :->!

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Office Suite
From:	mansker@--------
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 20:21:07 -0000

Salve -

Since there is so much bias against the use of MOS, I will withdraw
my offer (made in the best of spirits)to TRY and assist NovaRoma.

I would, however, like to point out that it is permissable to
transfer the license for MOS to another computer provided you have
removed the copy the license is applicable to from the originating
computer.

Gaia

> Salvete,
>
> A legal point. Nobody (execpt Microsoft) owns a copy of Office. You
> have a license. Microsoft's License is NON-TRANSFERABLE. If you
give
> your old software to Nova Roma and someone installs it, the two of
> you have commited Software Piracy. If Nova Roma Purchases a Copy of
> Office for a magistrate, and that person fails to remove the
software
> from thier PC, Then Nova Roma is pirating the software when it's
> installed on the New Magistrate's PC. Some of the terms that
> Microsoft includes in it's software licenses are a partial cause of
> my admited bias against MS.
>
> The Reason I Sugested StarOffice from the beginning is the terms of
> thier license are far better. MS licenses it's software on a per
> computer basis. You need a seprate license for each PC it's
installed
> on. Sun's license is to the entire organization. You buy ONE copy,
> That is ONE license, that is good for EVERY Computer that Nova Roma
> is using.
>
> Microsoft has been known to ask for documented proof that an
> organization has the proper licenses, and to charge new license
fees
> if you can't prove that every copy in use is legal. Use of any
> software that we don't have proof of licenses for can result in
legal
> action against Nova Roma.
>
> Valete,
> L. Sicinius Drusus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Office Suite
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 13:23:57 -0700

Ave,

Please dont withdraw your offer..I use Microsoft, most of NR's work has
been done on Microsoft! I prefer Microsoft Office.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

mansker@-------- wrote:
>
> Salve -
>
> Since there is so much bias against the use of MOS, I will withdraw
> my offer (made in the best of spirits)to TRY and assist NovaRoma.
>
> I would, however, like to point out that it is permissable to
> transfer the license for MOS to another computer provided you have
> removed the copy the license is applicable to from the originating
> computer.
>
> Gaia
>
> > Salvete,
> >
> > A legal point. Nobody (execpt Microsoft) owns a copy of Office. You
> > have a license. Microsoft's License is NON-TRANSFERABLE. If you
> give
> > your old software to Nova Roma and someone installs it, the two of
> > you have commited Software Piracy. If Nova Roma Purchases a Copy of
> > Office for a magistrate, and that person fails to remove the
> software
> > from thier PC, Then Nova Roma is pirating the software when it's
> > installed on the New Magistrate's PC. Some of the terms that
> > Microsoft includes in it's software licenses are a partial cause of
> > my admited bias against MS.
> >
> > The Reason I Sugested StarOffice from the beginning is the terms of
> > thier license are far better. MS licenses it's software on a per
> > computer basis. You need a seprate license for each PC it's
> installed
> > on. Sun's license is to the entire organization. You buy ONE copy,
> > That is ONE license, that is good for EVERY Computer that Nova Roma
> > is using.
> >
> > Microsoft has been known to ask for documented proof that an
> > organization has the proper licenses, and to charge new license
> fees
> > if you can't prove that every copy in use is legal. Use of any
> > software that we don't have proof of licenses for can result in
> legal
> > action against Nova Roma.
> >
> > Valete,
> > L. Sicinius Drusus
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Interesting Website
From:	Iulia66198@--------
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 16:28:43 EDT

Salvete omnes!

I'd like to alert you to a website I came across the other day -
http://www.campanian.org. A descriptive blurb from their site reads:

"The Campanian Society, Inc. is a non-profit educational organization
dedicated to the advancement of knowledge in the humanities and the fine arts
and in the social and cultural history of Naples and Campania and of the
ancient Greco-Roman world. In particular The Campanian Society, Inc. sponsors
activities and programs that are designed to heighten awareness and critical
appreciation of the classical humanities, Greek and Roman social history,
fine arts and architecture. Activities designed for innovative educators,
discriminating travelers seeking cultural enrichment, adventurous adults,
energetic retirees and explorers include programs which appeal to anyone
interested in the literature, history, archaeology and overall culture of the
Greco-Roman world and of ancient and modern Naples and the cities on the Bay."

There are all sorts of great things to be found here: Latin/educational
materials, posters, photos, cards, videos, slides, bookmarks, and lots of
nice stuff for children, including games, stickers, colouring books and
stencils. I thought the children's things particularly nice, since you can't
typically run down to your local Walmart for a colouring book on ancient
Rome. ;-)

There are links to classical & archaeological societies all over North
America, too. It would be great if we could get a link to NR included
somewhere on the site.

Valete
Iulia Cassia


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Office Suite
From:	mansker@--------
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 20:58:34 -0000

Unfortunately, I am tired of seeing that when a new member of
NovaRoma posts an idea, or an offer to help, they are shot down by
the older members.

It just seems sometimes that those "in the know" are far to ready to
slap down those of us who are new who post what we feel are sensible
ways to change what everyone is saying that they want changed, or who
offer solutions to problems that other's on the board have brought up.

This has happened to me several times now, and to others as well. If
NovaRoma is going to be honest about it's wanting to grow, they will
have to learn to accept new members with a little better grace than
they seem to now.

Gaia
--- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@e...>
wrote:
> Ave,
>
> Please dont withdraw your offer..I use Microsoft, most of NR's work
has
> been done on Microsoft! I prefer Microsoft Office.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> --------ker@-------- wrote:
> >
> > Salve -
> >
> > Since there is so much bias against the use of MOS, I will
withdraw
> > my offer (made in the best of spirits)to TRY and assist NovaRoma.
> >
> > I would, however, like to point out that it is permissable to
> > transfer the license for MOS to another computer provided you have
> > removed the copy the license is applicable to from the originating
> > computer.
> >
> > Gaia
> >
> > > Salvete,
> > >
> > > A legal point. Nobody (execpt Microsoft) owns a copy of Office.
You
> > > have a license. Microsoft's License is NON-TRANSFERABLE. If you
> > give
> > > your old software to Nova Roma and someone installs it, the two
of
> > > you have commited Software Piracy. If Nova Roma Purchases a
Copy of
> > > Office for a magistrate, and that person fails to remove the
> > software
> > > from thier PC, Then Nova Roma is pirating the software when it's
> > > installed on the New Magistrate's PC. Some of the terms that
> > > Microsoft includes in it's software licenses are a partial
cause of
> > > my admited bias against MS.
> > >
> > > The Reason I Sugested StarOffice from the beginning is the
terms of
> > > thier license are far better. MS licenses it's software on a per
> > > computer basis. You need a seprate license for each PC it's
> > installed
> > > on. Sun's license is to the entire organization. You buy ONE
copy,
> > > That is ONE license, that is good for EVERY Computer that Nova
Roma
> > > is using.
> > >
> > > Microsoft has been known to ask for documented proof that an
> > > organization has the proper licenses, and to charge new license
> > fees
> > > if you can't prove that every copy in use is legal. Use of any
> > > software that we don't have proof of licenses for can result in
> > legal
> > > action against Nova Roma.
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > > L. Sicinius Drusus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Office Suite
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 14:01:20 -0700

Ave,

My question to you is....just who are those "in the know?" Considering
that I am a Senior Magistrate, therefore one of "those in the know" I
am a bit concerned by that lose saying. I have not shot anything down.
The only people who have criticized were citizens. Not magistrates.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

mansker@-------- wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, I am tired of seeing that when a new member of
> NovaRoma posts an idea, or an offer to help, they are shot down by
> the older members.
>
> It just seems sometimes that those "in the know" are far to ready to
> slap down those of us who are new who post what we feel are sensible
> ways to change what everyone is saying that they want changed, or who
> offer solutions to problems that other's on the board have brought up.
>
> This has happened to me several times now, and to others as well. If
> NovaRoma is going to be honest about it's wanting to grow, they will
> have to learn to accept new members with a little better grace than
> they seem to now.
>
> Gaia
> --- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@e...>
> wrote:
> > Ave,
> >
> > Please dont withdraw your offer..I use Microsoft, most of NR's work
> has
> > been done on Microsoft! I prefer Microsoft Office.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >
> > --------ker@-------- wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve -
> > >
> > > Since there is so much bias against the use of MOS, I will
> withdraw
> > > my offer (made in the best of spirits)to TRY and assist NovaRoma.
> > >
> > > I would, however, like to point out that it is permissable to
> > > transfer the license for MOS to another computer provided you have
> > > removed the copy the license is applicable to from the originating
> > > computer.
> > >
> > > Gaia
> > >
> > > > Salvete,
> > > >
> > > > A legal point. Nobody (execpt Microsoft) owns a copy of Office.
> You
> > > > have a license. Microsoft's License is NON-TRANSFERABLE. If you
> > > give
> > > > your old software to Nova Roma and someone installs it, the two
> of
> > > > you have commited Software Piracy. If Nova Roma Purchases a
> Copy of
> > > > Office for a magistrate, and that person fails to remove the
> > > software
> > > > from thier PC, Then Nova Roma is pirating the software when it's
> > > > installed on the New Magistrate's PC. Some of the terms that
> > > > Microsoft includes in it's software licenses are a partial
> cause of
> > > > my admited bias against MS.
> > > >
> > > > The Reason I Sugested StarOffice from the beginning is the
> terms of
> > > > thier license are far better. MS licenses it's software on a per
> > > > computer basis. You need a seprate license for each PC it's
> > > installed
> > > > on. Sun's license is to the entire organization. You buy ONE
> copy,
> > > > That is ONE license, that is good for EVERY Computer that Nova
> Roma
> > > > is using.
> > > >
> > > > Microsoft has been known to ask for documented proof that an
> > > > organization has the proper licenses, and to charge new license
> > > fees
> > > > if you can't prove that every copy in use is legal. Use of any
> > > > software that we don't have proof of licenses for can result in
> > > legal
> > > > action against Nova Roma.
> > > >
> > > > Valete,
> > > > L. Sicinius Drusus
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Office Suite
From:	mansker@--------
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 21:09:40 -0000

I am using the phrase "in the know" loosely, attributing it to people
who seem to have been here quite a while and who post an enormous
amount.

What I seem to see is that some people who have been part of NovaRoma
for a while feel that any new ideas, or ideas that are posted by new
comers that others had posted months (and in some cases, years)
before, are not worth the megabytes that they are posted on.

I find it disturbing to have this attitude seem (and I emphasize
SEEM) to be prevelant when NovaRoma and NovaRoman's as a whole are
talking about the need to have more citizens, and more active
citizens.

Perhaps the reason that NovaRoma has citizens that are not active is
because they tried to be, and, (unlike myself, who will stay active
regardless of how I am treated), were shot down by the only people
that they really had contact with?

Gaia
--- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@e...>
wrote:
> Ave,
>
> My question to you is....just who are those "in the know?"
Considering
> that I am a Senior Magistrate, therefore one of "those in the
know" I
> am a bit concerned by that lose saying. I have not shot anything
down.
> The only people who have criticized were citizens. Not magistrates.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> --------ker@-------- wrote:
> >
> > Unfortunately, I am tired of seeing that when a new member of
> > NovaRoma posts an idea, or an offer to help, they are shot down by
> > the older members.
> >
> > It just seems sometimes that those "in the know" are far to ready
to
> > slap down those of us who are new who post what we feel are
sensible
> > ways to change what everyone is saying that they want changed, or
who
> > offer solutions to problems that other's on the board have
brought up.
> >
> > This has happened to me several times now, and to others as
well. If
> > NovaRoma is going to be honest about it's wanting to grow, they
will
> > have to learn to accept new members with a little better grace
than
> > they seem to now.
> >
> > Gaia
> > --- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@e...>
> > wrote:
> > > Ave,
> > >
> > > Please dont withdraw your offer..I use Microsoft, most of NR's
work
> > has
> > > been done on Microsoft! I prefer Microsoft Office.
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > >
> > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > >
> > > --------ker@-------- wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Salve -
> > > >
> > > > Since there is so much bias against the use of MOS, I will
> > withdraw
> > > > my offer (made in the best of spirits)to TRY and assist
NovaRoma.
> > > >
> > > > I would, however, like to point out that it is permissable to
> > > > transfer the license for MOS to another computer provided you
have
> > > > removed the copy the license is applicable to from the
originating
> > > > computer.
> > > >
> > > > Gaia
> > > >
> > > > > Salvete,
> > > > >
> > > > > A legal point. Nobody (execpt Microsoft) owns a copy of
Office.
> > You
> > > > > have a license. Microsoft's License is NON-TRANSFERABLE. If
you
> > > > give
> > > > > your old software to Nova Roma and someone installs it, the
two
> > of
> > > > > you have commited Software Piracy. If Nova Roma Purchases a
> > Copy of
> > > > > Office for a magistrate, and that person fails to remove the
> > > > software
> > > > > from thier PC, Then Nova Roma is pirating the software when
it's
> > > > > installed on the New Magistrate's PC. Some of the terms that
> > > > > Microsoft includes in it's software licenses are a partial
> > cause of
> > > > > my admited bias against MS.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Reason I Sugested StarOffice from the beginning is the
> > terms of
> > > > > thier license are far better. MS licenses it's software on
a per
> > > > > computer basis. You need a seprate license for each PC it's
> > > > installed
> > > > > on. Sun's license is to the entire organization. You buy ONE
> > copy,
> > > > > That is ONE license, that is good for EVERY Computer that
Nova
> > Roma
> > > > > is using.
> > > > >
> > > > > Microsoft has been known to ask for documented proof that an
> > > > > organization has the proper licenses, and to charge new
license
> > > > fees
> > > > > if you can't prove that every copy in use is legal. Use of
any
> > > > > software that we don't have proof of licenses for can
result in
> > > > legal
> > > > > action against Nova Roma.
> > > > >
> > > > > Valete,
> > > > > L. Sicinius Drusus
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Office Suite
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 14:17:04 -0700

Ave,

But "those in the know" are not those in the know. They just have
opinions....and maybe voice them in a way that can be interpreted
negatively over the net. I know this is a problem with many of my
posts. But I do assure you....I do not mean to come across that way.

As for new ideas...I am very much for them. While I may or may not
privately respond to every idea that comes down the way....I am an avid
listener. Many of the ideas have been expressed before...and when we
get new citizens they re-express them....thats fine too.

As I said above....the Net is not a good form of communication because
we truly do not know the tone of voice or inflextion. Well I hope you
will still remain active and post your thoughts regardless if citizens
disagree with you. Becuase there are many of us (almost 400) who listen
and do not always criticize.

Back to Microsoft, I have used it for over 5 years. I have had
experience with Corel and Wordperfect...but hands down my favorite is
Office...and for the forceable future it will still be Office. If
someone was to donate software to NR. Let it be Office because
everything has been done in Office to this point. I do not see a valid
enough reason to change.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

mansker@-------- wrote:
>
> I am using the phrase "in the know" loosely, attributing it to people
> who seem to have been here quite a while and who post an enormous
> amount.
>
> What I seem to see is that some people who have been part of NovaRoma
> for a while feel that any new ideas, or ideas that are posted by new
> comers that others had posted months (and in some cases, years)
> before, are not worth the megabytes that they are posted on.
>
> I find it disturbing to have this attitude seem (and I emphasize
> SEEM) to be prevelant when NovaRoma and NovaRoman's as a whole are
> talking about the need to have more citizens, and more active
> citizens.
>
> Perhaps the reason that NovaRoma has citizens that are not active is
> because they tried to be, and, (unlike myself, who will stay active
> regardless of how I am treated), were shot down by the only people
> that they really had contact with?
>
> Gaia
> --- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@e...>
> wrote:
> > Ave,
> >
> > My question to you is....just who are those "in the know?"
> Considering
> > that I am a Senior Magistrate, therefore one of "those in the
> know" I
> > am a bit concerned by that lose saying. I have not shot anything
> down.
> > The only people who have criticized were citizens. Not magistrates.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >
> > --------ker@-------- wrote:
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, I am tired of seeing that when a new member of
> > > NovaRoma posts an idea, or an offer to help, they are shot down by
> > > the older members.
> > >
> > > It just seems sometimes that those "in the know" are far to ready
> to
> > > slap down those of us who are new who post what we feel are
> sensible
> > > ways to change what everyone is saying that they want changed, or
> who
> > > offer solutions to problems that other's on the board have
> brought up.
> > >
> > > This has happened to me several times now, and to others as
> well. If
> > > NovaRoma is going to be honest about it's wanting to grow, they
> will
> > > have to learn to accept new members with a little better grace
> than
> > > they seem to now.
> > >
> > > Gaia
> > > --- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@e...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Ave,
> > > >
> > > > Please dont withdraw your offer..I use Microsoft, most of NR's
> work
> > > has
> > > > been done on Microsoft! I prefer Microsoft Office.
> > > >
> > > > Respectfully,
> > > >
> > > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > >
> > > > --------ker@-------- wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Salve -
> > > > >
> > > > > Since there is so much bias against the use of MOS, I will
> > > withdraw
> > > > > my offer (made in the best of spirits)to TRY and assist
> NovaRoma.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would, however, like to point out that it is permissable to
> > > > > transfer the license for MOS to another computer provided you
> have
> > > > > removed the copy the license is applicable to from the
> originating
> > > > > computer.
> > > > >
> > > > > Gaia
> > > > >
> > > > > > Salvete,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A legal point. Nobody (execpt Microsoft) owns a copy of
> Office.
> > > You
> > > > > > have a license. Microsoft's License is NON-TRANSFERABLE. If
> you
> > > > > give
> > > > > > your old software to Nova Roma and someone installs it, the
> two
> > > of
> > > > > > you have commited Software Piracy. If Nova Roma Purchases a
> > > Copy of
> > > > > > Office for a magistrate, and that person fails to remove the
> > > > > software
> > > > > > from thier PC, Then Nova Roma is pirating the software when
> it's
> > > > > > installed on the New Magistrate's PC. Some of the terms that
> > > > > > Microsoft includes in it's software licenses are a partial
> > > cause of
> > > > > > my admited bias against MS.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Reason I Sugested StarOffice from the beginning is the
> > > terms of
> > > > > > thier license are far better. MS licenses it's software on
> a per
> > > > > > computer basis. You need a seprate license for each PC it's
> > > > > installed
> > > > > > on. Sun's license is to the entire organization. You buy ONE
> > > copy,
> > > > > > That is ONE license, that is good for EVERY Computer that
> Nova
> > > Roma
> > > > > > is using.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Microsoft has been known to ask for documented proof that an
> > > > > > organization has the proper licenses, and to charge new
> license
> > > > > fees
> > > > > > if you can't prove that every copy in use is legal. Use of
> any
> > > > > > software that we don't have proof of licenses for can
> result in
> > > > > legal
> > > > > > action against Nova Roma.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Valete,
> > > > > > L. Sicinius Drusus
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Office Suite
From:	Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 23:31:49 +0200

mansker@-------- wrote:
> What I seem to see is that some people who have been part of NovaRoma
> for a while feel that any new ideas, or ideas that are posted by new
> comers that others had posted months (and in some cases, years)
> before, are not worth the megabytes that they are posted on.
>
> Perhaps the reason that NovaRoma has citizens that are not active is
> because they tried to be, and, (unlike myself, who will stay active
> regardless of how I am treated), were shot down by the only people
> that they really had contact with?

Salve, Gaia.

As a fellow newcomer, I recognize the symptom you're describing.
However, I don't feel that this is just because a person is "new" to the
list, but that he/she hasn't studied the (vast) archives, and therefore
lacks the ability to fully comprehend the situation. I must admit that
this is a valid point, but it does not merit the witch-hunt commonly
seen in these cases. I have myself expressed my opinion regarding a few
issues in my relatively short time here, and received (what I perceive)
a positive response to this. If anyone has disagreed with my statements,
they have replied, if someone agreed, they let me know.

In this specific case, I don't feel that you or your skills are being
put on trial. It's mainly a matter of a few UNIX and GNU diehards
(...who me? Yes, I am one as well.) who dislikes Microsoft on general
principle, and therefore expresses their negative sentiments regarding
their business practices.

I, for one, much value your offer, and admire your devotion to Nova
Roma. I hope you will not let a few geeks (See: userfriendly.org)
dissuade you from your original mindset. I look forward to your future
contributions to our beloved Res Publica!

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consiliarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

P.S. If anyone bothered looking this far down the page, I'll just say
that Star Office rules, and remind all MS-users that their skills will
just need to be recalibrated to the new environment, which in many
aspects resembles what you're used to.


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Office Suite
From:	mansker@--------
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 21:39:22 -0000

I understand what you are saying, and I agree that perhaps those who
are "quick on the trigger" and blast newcomers and their ideas may
not be the ones that are truly interested in NovaRoma or speak with
the voice of NovaRoma. Unfortunately, however, they are the very
ones who are most visible and set the tone of NovaRoma for newcomers.

And, I don't want this to be taken as "you didn't respond to me so
I'm going away". This is about being shot down by people for asking
questions or posting comments on current discussions.

If people are made to feel that they are unwanted, unheard, and their
ideas are poor, they will not stay around. While most of the posts
on this board are done with some respect and an informational tone,
some of them are done in the "you obviously don't know anything so
why don't you keep quite while your elders/betters talk" tone.

This can do nothing but hurt NovaRoma in the long run. The people
that wish to stay around either enter the fray (regardless of whether
they want to fight or not), or keep quite. This loses, I think, some
of the people that would directly benefit NovaRoma because they start
out with a good heart and an intent to be active. Once they have
been slapped down enough, however, their interest wains and their
activity level approaches non-existant.

I have been reading a large number of posts lately that discuss what
to do with the "less active citizen" and how to reward those citizens
who remain active. This discussion directly affects the activity
level of NovaRomans, and why 50% or more of the citizens are
currently not as active as people want them to be.

Sure, some of them joined and then decided not to participate, but I
would bet that a large number of them joined, tried to participate,
and were shot down by someone on a board such as this (and if you
look back through the archives you will see what I mean). You can
only be shot down so many times before you decide not to participate
anymore. One post I saw, in response to a tax post, stated that if
the person had taken the time to read the prior posts they would have
seen that what they had posted had already been thought of before and
discarded.

Do you really think that anyone (except me, but I'm certifiably
crazy ;)) would take the time to go through the archives and read the
sometimes incredibly long posts from day one? Even I, who want to do
this, am barely into the 2nd quarter of 2000.

I don't mean to rant about this, but if NovaRoman's really feel that
it is important to get new citizens to join, and have them active,
and they really don't want NovaRoma to become just another "Internet
Exclusive Club", it is time to turn our attention to how those new
people are treated and perhaps see if there is something different
that we can do regarding this.

As to MOS, if you still want a copy I would be happy to send it.
Again, I am not knocking Staroffice or any other office suite out
there, this just happens to be the software that I have.

Gaia
--- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@e...>
wrote:
> Ave,
>
> But "those in the know" are not those in the know. They just have
> opinions....and maybe voice them in a way that can be interpreted
> negatively over the net. I know this is a problem with many of my
> posts. But I do assure you....I do not mean to come across that
way.
>
> As for new ideas...I am very much for them. While I may or may not
> privately respond to every idea that comes down the way....I am an
avid
> listener. Many of the ideas have been expressed before...and when
we
> get new citizens they re-express them....thats fine too.
>
> As I said above....the Net is not a good form of communication
because
> we truly do not know the tone of voice or inflextion. Well I hope
you
> will still remain active and post your thoughts regardless if
citizens
> disagree with you. Becuase there are many of us (almost 400) who
listen
> and do not always criticize.
>
> Back to Microsoft, I have used it for over 5 years. I have had
> experience with Corel and Wordperfect...but hands down my favorite
is
> Office...and for the forceable future it will still be Office. If
> someone was to donate software to NR. Let it be Office because
> everything has been done in Office to this point. I do not see a
valid
> enough reason to change.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> --------ker@-------- wrote:
> >
> > I am using the phrase "in the know" loosely, attributing it to
people
> > who seem to have been here quite a while and who post an enormous
> > amount.
> >
> > What I seem to see is that some people who have been part of
NovaRoma
> > for a while feel that any new ideas, or ideas that are posted by
new
> > comers that others had posted months (and in some cases, years)
> > before, are not worth the megabytes that they are posted on.
> >
> > I find it disturbing to have this attitude seem (and I emphasize
> > SEEM) to be prevelant when NovaRoma and NovaRoman's as a whole are
> > talking about the need to have more citizens, and more active
> > citizens.
> >
> > Perhaps the reason that NovaRoma has citizens that are not active
is
> > because they tried to be, and, (unlike myself, who will stay
active
> > regardless of how I am treated), were shot down by the only people
> > that they really had contact with?
> >
> > Gaia
> > --- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@e...>
> > wrote:
> > > Ave,
> > >
> > > My question to you is....just who are those "in the know?"
> > Considering
> > > that I am a Senior Magistrate, therefore one of "those in the
> > know" I
> > > am a bit concerned by that lose saying. I have not shot
anything
> > down.
> > > The only people who have criticized were citizens. Not
magistrates.
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > >
> > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > >
> > > --------ker@-------- wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately, I am tired of seeing that when a new member of
> > > > NovaRoma posts an idea, or an offer to help, they are shot
down by
> > > > the older members.
> > > >
> > > > It just seems sometimes that those "in the know" are far to
ready
> > to
> > > > slap down those of us who are new who post what we feel are
> > sensible
> > > > ways to change what everyone is saying that they want
changed, or
> > who
> > > > offer solutions to problems that other's on the board have
> > brought up.
> > > >
> > > > This has happened to me several times now, and to others as
> > well. If
> > > > NovaRoma is going to be honest about it's wanting to grow,
they
> > will
> > > > have to learn to accept new members with a little better grace
> > than
> > > > they seem to now.
> > > >
> > > > Gaia
> > > > --- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
<al--------us@-------->
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Ave,
> > > > >
> > > > > Please dont withdraw your offer..I use Microsoft, most of
NR's
> > work
> > > > has
> > > > > been done on Microsoft! I prefer Microsoft Office.
> > > > >
> > > > > Respectfully,
> > > > >
> > > > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > > >
> > > > > --------ker@-------- wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Salve -
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Since there is so much bias against the use of MOS, I will
> > > > withdraw
> > > > > > my offer (made in the best of spirits)to TRY and assist
> > NovaRoma.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would, however, like to point out that it is
permissable to
> > > > > > transfer the license for MOS to another computer provided
you
> > have
> > > > > > removed the copy the license is applicable to from the
> > originating
> > > > > > computer.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Gaia
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Salvete,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A legal point. Nobody (execpt Microsoft) owns a copy of
> > Office.
> > > > You
> > > > > > > have a license. Microsoft's License is NON-
TRANSFERABLE. If
> > you
> > > > > > give
> > > > > > > your old software to Nova Roma and someone installs it,
the
> > two
> > > > of
> > > > > > > you have commited Software Piracy. If Nova Roma
Purchases a
> > > > Copy of
> > > > > > > Office for a magistrate, and that person fails to
remove the
> > > > > > software
> > > > > > > from thier PC, Then Nova Roma is pirating the software
when
> > it's
> > > > > > > installed on the New Magistrate's PC. Some of the terms
that
> > > > > > > Microsoft includes in it's software licenses are a
partial
> > > > cause of
> > > > > > > my admited bias against MS.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The Reason I Sugested StarOffice from the beginning is
the
> > > > terms of
> > > > > > > thier license are far better. MS licenses it's software
on
> > a per
> > > > > > > computer basis. You need a seprate license for each PC
it's
> > > > > > installed
> > > > > > > on. Sun's license is to the entire organization. You
buy ONE
> > > > copy,
> > > > > > > That is ONE license, that is good for EVERY Computer
that
> > Nova
> > > > Roma
> > > > > > > is using.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Microsoft has been known to ask for documented proof
that an
> > > > > > > organization has the proper licenses, and to charge new
> > license
> > > > > > fees
> > > > > > > if you can't prove that every copy in use is legal. Use
of
> > any
> > > > > > > software that we don't have proof of licenses for can
> > result in
> > > > > > legal
> > > > > > > action against Nova Roma.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Valete,
> > > > > > > L. Sicinius Drusus
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Regarding new citizens.
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 15:06:23 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes, et salve Gaia.

I am also a new citizen, so I've known first hand what you are talking
about. I would also like that elders showed a more open attitude to
newcomers, but I am afraid that is just human nature, and surely
someone will always be ready to shoot down newcomers.

I wanted to take profit of your words to bring back an issue I
presented on my first days in Nova Roma (about a month ago ;-) ). I am
talking about the Codex issue.

I think the website should provide some references to newcomers so they
could avoid reading the whole list of past messages (what an Herculean
effort, Gaia!). I know there's something like this in
www.goldenfuture.net/mediatlantica/whatnow/index.html , but this is not
easily accessed from the Nova Roma web site, and, although it gives
useful information, there's a lot that's not shown in there.

I think we should take a serious effort to integrate new citizens, and
"teaching" them what has been going on should be an important part of
it.

Bene Valete!

Gnaeus Salix Astur, civis romanus.

--- mansker@-------- wrote:
> I understand what you are saying, and I agree that perhaps those who
> are "quick on the trigger" and blast newcomers and their ideas may
> not be the ones that are truly interested in NovaRoma or speak with
> the voice of NovaRoma. Unfortunately, however, they are the very
> ones who are most visible and set the tone of NovaRoma for newcomers.
>
> And, I don't want this to be taken as "you didn't respond to me so
> I'm going away". This is about being shot down by people for asking
> questions or posting comments on current discussions.
>
> If people are made to feel that they are unwanted, unheard, and their
>
> ideas are poor, they will not stay around. While most of the posts
> on this board are done with some respect and an informational tone,
> some of them are done in the "you obviously don't know anything so
> why don't you keep quite while your elders/betters talk" tone.
>
> This can do nothing but hurt NovaRoma in the long run. The people
> that wish to stay around either enter the fray (regardless of whether
>
> they want to fight or not), or keep quite. This loses, I think, some
>
> of the people that would directly benefit NovaRoma because they start
>
> out with a good heart and an intent to be active. Once they have
> been slapped down enough, however, their interest wains and their
> activity level approaches non-existant.
>
> I have been reading a large number of posts lately that discuss what
> to do with the "less active citizen" and how to reward those citizens
>
> who remain active. This discussion directly affects the activity
> level of NovaRomans, and why 50% or more of the citizens are
> currently not as active as people want them to be.
>
> Sure, some of them joined and then decided not to participate, but I
> would bet that a large number of them joined, tried to participate,
> and were shot down by someone on a board such as this (and if you
> look back through the archives you will see what I mean). You can
> only be shot down so many times before you decide not to participate
> anymore. One post I saw, in response to a tax post, stated that if
> the person had taken the time to read the prior posts they would have
>
> seen that what they had posted had already been thought of before and
>
> discarded.
>
> Do you really think that anyone (except me, but I'm certifiably
> crazy ;)) would take the time to go through the archives and read the
>
> sometimes incredibly long posts from day one? Even I, who want to do
>
> this, am barely into the 2nd quarter of 2000.
>
> I don't mean to rant about this, but if NovaRoman's really feel that
> it is important to get new citizens to join, and have them active,
> and they really don't want NovaRoma to become just another "Internet
> Exclusive Club", it is time to turn our attention to how those new
> people are treated and perhaps see if there is something different
> that we can do regarding this.
>
> As to MOS, if you still want a copy I would be happy to send it.
> Again, I am not knocking Staroffice or any other office suite out
> there, this just happens to be the software that I have.
>
> Gaia
> --- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@e...>
> wrote:
> > Ave,
> >
> > But "those in the know" are not those in the know. They just have
> > opinions....and maybe voice them in a way that can be interpreted
> > negatively over the net. I know this is a problem with many of my
> > posts. But I do assure you....I do not mean to come across that
> way.
> >
> > As for new ideas...I am very much for them. While I may or may not
> > privately respond to every idea that comes down the way....I am an
> avid
> > listener. Many of the ideas have been expressed before...and when
> we
> > get new citizens they re-express them....thats fine too.
> >
> > As I said above....the Net is not a good form of communication
> because
> > we truly do not know the tone of voice or inflextion. Well I hope
> you
> > will still remain active and post your thoughts regardless if
> citizens
> > disagree with you. Becuase there are many of us (almost 400) who
> listen
> > and do not always criticize.
> >
> > Back to Microsoft, I have used it for over 5 years. I have had
> > experience with Corel and Wordperfect...but hands down my favorite
> is
> > Office...and for the forceable future it will still be Office. If
> > someone was to donate software to NR. Let it be Office because
> > everything has been done in Office to this point. I do not see a
> valid
> > enough reason to change.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >
> > --------ker@-------- wrote:
> > >
> > > I am using the phrase "in the know" loosely, attributing it to
> people
> > > who seem to have been here quite a while and who post an enormous
> > > amount.
> > >
> > > What I seem to see is that some people who have been part of
> NovaRoma
> > > for a while feel that any new ideas, or ideas that are posted by
> new
> > > comers that others had posted months (and in some cases, years)
> > > before, are not worth the megabytes that they are posted on.
> > >
> > > I find it disturbing to have this attitude seem (and I emphasize
> > > SEEM) to be prevelant when NovaRoma and NovaRoman's as a whole
> are
> > > talking about the need to have more citizens, and more active
> > > citizens.
> > >
> > > Perhaps the reason that NovaRoma has citizens that are not active
>
> is
> > > because they tried to be, and, (unlike myself, who will stay
> active
> > > regardless of how I am treated), were shot down by the only
> people
> > > that they really had contact with?
> > >
> > > Gaia
> > > --- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> <al--------us@-------->
> > > wrote:
> > > > Ave,
> > > >
> > > > My question to you is....just who are those "in the know?"
> > > Considering
> > > > that I am a Senior Magistrate, therefore one of "those in the
> > > know" I
> > > > am a bit concerned by that lose saying. I have not shot
> anything
> > > down.
> > > > The only people who have criticized were citizens. Not
> magistrates.
> > > >
> > > > Respectfully,
> > > >
> > > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > >
> > > > --------ker@-------- wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Unfortunately, I am tired of seeing that when a new member of
> > > > > NovaRoma posts an idea, or an offer to help, they are shot
> down by
> > > > > the older members.
> > > > >
> > > > > It just seems sometimes that those "in the know" are far to
> ready
> > > to
> > > > > slap down those of us who are new who post what we feel are
> > > sensible
> > > > > ways to change what everyone is saying that they want
> changed, or
> > > who
> > > > > offer solutions to problems that other's on the board have
> > > brought up.
> > > > >
> > > > > This has happened to me several times now, and to others as
> > > well. If
> > > > > NovaRoma is going to be honest about it's wanting to grow,
> they
> > > will
> > > > > have to learn to accept new members with a little better
> grace
> > > than
> > > > > they seem to now.
> > > > >
> > > > > Gaia
> > > > > --- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> <al--------us@-------->
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Ave,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please dont withdraw your offer..I use Microsoft, most of
> NR's
> > > work
> > > > > has
> > > > > > been done on Microsoft! I prefer Microsoft Office.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Respectfully,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --------ker@-------- wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Salve -
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Since there is so much bias against the use of MOS, I
> will
> > > > > withdraw
> > > > > > > my offer (made in the best of spirits)to TRY and assist
> > > NovaRoma.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would, however, like to point out that it is
> permissable to
> > > > > > > transfer the license for MOS to another computer provided
>
> you
> > > have
> > > > > > > removed the copy the license is applicable to from the
> > > originating
> > > > > > > computer.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Gaia
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Salvete,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > A legal point. Nobody (execpt Microsoft) owns a copy of
> > > Office.
> > > > > You
> > > > > > > > have a license. Microsoft's License is NON-
> TRANSFERABLE. If
> > > you
> > > > > > > give
> > > > > > > > your old software to Nova Roma and someone installs it,
>
> the
> > > two
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > you have commited Software Piracy. If Nova Roma
> Purchases a
> > > > > Copy of
> > > > > > > > Office for a magistrate, and that person fails to
> remove the
> > > > > > > software
> > > > > > > > from thier PC, Then Nova Roma is pirating the software
> when
> > > it's
> > > > > > > > installed on the New Magistrate's PC. Some of the terms
>
> that
> > > > > > > > Microsoft includes in it's software licenses are a
> partial
> > > > > cause of
> > > > > > > > my admited bias against MS.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The Reason I Sugested StarOffice from the beginning is
> the
> > > > > terms of
> > > > > > > > thier license are far better. MS licenses it's software
>
> on
> > > a per
> > > > > > > > computer basis. You need a seprate license for each PC
> it's
> > > > > > > installed
> > > > > > > > on. Sun's license is to the entire organization. You
> buy ONE
> > > > > copy,
> > > > > > > > That is ONE license, that is good for EVERY Computer
> that
> > > Nova
> > > > > Roma
> > > > > > > > is using.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Microsoft has been known to ask for documented proof
> that an
> > > > > > > > organization has the proper licenses, and to charge new
> > > license
> > > > > > > fees
> > > > > > > > if you can't prove that every copy in use is legal. Use
>
> of
> > > any
> > > > > > > > software that we don't have proof of licenses for can
> > > result in
> > > > > > > legal
> > > > > > > > action against Nova Roma.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Valete,
> > > > > > > > L. Sicinius Drusus
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Regarding new citizens.
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 15:06:57 -0700 (PDT)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Office Suite
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 15:08:37 -0700

Ave

My comments below:

mansker@-------- wrote:
>
> I understand what you are saying, and I agree that perhaps those who
> are "quick on the trigger" and blast newcomers and their ideas may
> not be the ones that are truly interested in NovaRoma or speak with
> the voice of NovaRoma. Unfortunately, however, they are the very
> ones who are most visible and set the tone of NovaRoma for newcomers.

Yes...but keep in mind they are also new themselves. Which is why I
really recommend people to browse the archieves. In my experience, I
find the new citizens more vehement and vocal. In time they will post
less and listen more. (That is just my observation.)

> And, I don't want this to be taken as "you didn't respond to me so
> I'm going away". This is about being shot down by people for asking
> questions or posting comments on current discussions.

I understand.

> If people are made to feel that they are unwanted, unheard, and their
> ideas are poor, they will not stay around. While most of the posts
> on this board are done with some respect and an informational tone,
> some of them are done in the "you obviously don't know anything so
> why don't you keep quite while your elders/betters talk" tone.

I understand that too. However, this issue has been around for 2 years,
and I am sure it will be debated for at least another year...before
anything is decided. The situation in Britannia has rased alot of
questions regarding dues and its implementation in my mind at
least...and probably in others as well. (this is just relating back to
the issue that started this divergent thread.)

> This can do nothing but hurt NovaRoma in the long run. The people
> that wish to stay around either enter the fray (regardless of whether
> they want to fight or not), or keep quite. This loses, I think, some
> of the people that would directly benefit NovaRoma because they start
> out with a good heart and an intent to be active. Once they have
> been slapped down enough, however, their interest wains and their
> activity level approaches non-existant.

I agree to a point. Again, in my observation, the new citizens are the
most vocal and for lack of a better word boisterous. In time new
citizens will tone down as they learn and become influneced by the
community they "settle down." Again this is just my observation and my
own experience.

> Sure, some of them joined and then decided not to participate, but I
> would bet that a large number of them joined, tried to participate,
> and were shot down by someone on a board such as this (and if you
> look back through the archives you will see what I mean). You can
> only be shot down so many times before you decide not to participate
> anymore. One post I saw, in response to a tax post, stated that if
> the person had taken the time to read the prior posts they would have
> seen that what they had posted had already been thought of before and
> discarded.

In this I disagree. The NR main list has never had more than at most
35% of citizens on the list at any one time. As Censor, my experience
in trying to maintain contact with citizens confirms this. I would say
probably about a third to half of our "listed" citizens have never
visited NR's site once they initially signed up. I cannot tell you how
many times I have had to call Paters on the phone and ask them about new
members to join their gens..and I get told what is NR? Where did you
get my number from....This is one of the reasons I believe more controls
need to be implemented other than just a website application..but that
is another issue entirely.

> Do you really think that anyone (except me, but I'm certifiably
> crazy ;)) would take the time to go through the archives and read the
> sometimes incredibly long posts from day one? Even I, who want to do
> this, am barely into the 2nd quarter of 2000.

Believe me I understand. But, I have done it myself to recap or to find
a post I am looking for. I dont know a way to make it easier....but it
is the only thing I can truly recommend. I was hoping the ANNALS would
begin again....that would be an excellent way to have summaries about
the year's events posted...like M. Gangalius did for 1998 and part of
1999.

> I don't mean to rant about this, but if NovaRoman's really feel that
> it is important to get new citizens to join, and have them active,
> and they really don't want NovaRoma to become just another "Internet
> Exclusive Club", it is time to turn our attention to how those new
> people are treated and perhaps see if there is something different
> that we can do regarding this.

I understand...and that is why I am at anyone's disposal to ask
questions too, to give advice or anything. I dont know what else to say
or do other than to be accountable for my own actions.

> As to MOS, if you still want a copy I would be happy to send it.
> Again, I am not knocking Staroffice or any other office suite out
> there, this just happens to be the software that I have.

Thanks for the offer, I dont need it on my end. (I have my own).
However, I am sure a magistrate in the future will need it...and I will
write this down in case if I ever come across someone who needs it, I
will contact you.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

> Gaia
> --- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@e...>
> wrote:
> > Ave,
> >
> > But "those in the know" are not those in the know. They just have
> > opinions....and maybe voice them in a way that can be interpreted
> > negatively over the net. I know this is a problem with many of my
> > posts. But I do assure you....I do not mean to come across that
> way.
> >
> > As for new ideas...I am very much for them. While I may or may not
> > privately respond to every idea that comes down the way....I am an
> avid
> > listener. Many of the ideas have been expressed before...and when
> we
> > get new citizens they re-express them....thats fine too.
> >
> > As I said above....the Net is not a good form of communication
> because
> > we truly do not know the tone of voice or inflextion. Well I hope
> you
> > will still remain active and post your thoughts regardless if
> citizens
> > disagree with you. Becuase there are many of us (almost 400) who
> listen
> > and do not always criticize.
> >
> > Back to Microsoft, I have used it for over 5 years. I have had
> > experience with Corel and Wordperfect...but hands down my favorite
> is
> > Office...and for the forceable future it will still be Office. If
> > someone was to donate software to NR. Let it be Office because
> > everything has been done in Office to this point. I do not see a
> valid
> > enough reason to change.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >
> > --------ker@-------- wrote:
> > >
> > > I am using the phrase "in the know" loosely, attributing it to
> people
> > > who seem to have been here quite a while and who post an enormous
> > > amount.
> > >
> > > What I seem to see is that some people who have been part of
> NovaRoma
> > > for a while feel that any new ideas, or ideas that are posted by
> new
> > > comers that others had posted months (and in some cases, years)
> > > before, are not worth the megabytes that they are posted on.
> > >
> > > I find it disturbing to have this attitude seem (and I emphasize
> > > SEEM) to be prevelant when NovaRoma and NovaRoman's as a whole are
> > > talking about the need to have more citizens, and more active
> > > citizens.
> > >
> > > Perhaps the reason that NovaRoma has citizens that are not active
> is
> > > because they tried to be, and, (unlike myself, who will stay
> active
> > > regardless of how I am treated), were shot down by the only people
> > > that they really had contact with?
> > >
> > > Gaia
> > > --- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@e...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Ave,
> > > >
> > > > My question to you is....just who are those "in the know?"
> > > Considering
> > > > that I am a Senior Magistrate, therefore one of "those in the
> > > know" I
> > > > am a bit concerned by that lose saying. I have not shot
> anything
> > > down.
> > > > The only people who have criticized were citizens. Not
> magistrates.
> > > >
> > > > Respectfully,
> > > >
> > > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > >
> > > > --------ker@-------- wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Unfortunately, I am tired of seeing that when a new member of
> > > > > NovaRoma posts an idea, or an offer to help, they are shot
> down by
> > > > > the older members.
> > > > >
> > > > > It just seems sometimes that those "in the know" are far to
> ready
> > > to
> > > > > slap down those of us who are new who post what we feel are
> > > sensible
> > > > > ways to change what everyone is saying that they want
> changed, or
> > > who
> > > > > offer solutions to problems that other's on the board have
> > > brought up.
> > > > >
> > > > > This has happened to me several times now, and to others as
> > > well. If
> > > > > NovaRoma is going to be honest about it's wanting to grow,
> they
> > > will
> > > > > have to learn to accept new members with a little better grace
> > > than
> > > > > they seem to now.
> > > > >
> > > > > Gaia
> > > > > --- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> <al--------us@-------->
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Ave,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please dont withdraw your offer..I use Microsoft, most of
> NR's
> > > work
> > > > > has
> > > > > > been done on Microsoft! I prefer Microsoft Office.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Respectfully,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --------ker@-------- wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Salve -
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Since there is so much bias against the use of MOS, I will
> > > > > withdraw
> > > > > > > my offer (made in the best of spirits)to TRY and assist
> > > NovaRoma.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would, however, like to point out that it is
> permissable to
> > > > > > > transfer the license for MOS to another computer provided
> you
> > > have
> > > > > > > removed the copy the license is applicable to from the
> > > originating
> > > > > > > computer.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Gaia
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Salvete,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > A legal point. Nobody (execpt Microsoft) owns a copy of
> > > Office.
> > > > > You
> > > > > > > > have a license. Microsoft's License is NON-
> TRANSFERABLE. If
> > > you
> > > > > > > give
> > > > > > > > your old software to Nova Roma and someone installs it,
> the
> > > two
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > you have commited Software Piracy. If Nova Roma
> Purchases a
> > > > > Copy of
> > > > > > > > Office for a magistrate, and that person fails to
> remove the
> > > > > > > software
> > > > > > > > from thier PC, Then Nova Roma is pirating the software
> when
> > > it's
> > > > > > > > installed on the New Magistrate's PC. Some of the terms
> that
> > > > > > > > Microsoft includes in it's software licenses are a
> partial
> > > > > cause of
> > > > > > > > my admited bias against MS.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The Reason I Sugested StarOffice from the beginning is
> the
> > > > > terms of
> > > > > > > > thier license are far better. MS licenses it's software
> on
> > > a per
> > > > > > > > computer basis. You need a seprate license for each PC
> it's
> > > > > > > installed
> > > > > > > > on. Sun's license is to the entire organization. You
> buy ONE
> > > > > copy,
> > > > > > > > That is ONE license, that is good for EVERY Computer
> that
> > > Nova
> > > > > Roma
> > > > > > > > is using.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Microsoft has been known to ask for documented proof
> that an
> > > > > > > > organization has the proper licenses, and to charge new
> > > license
> > > > > > > fees
> > > > > > > > if you can't prove that every copy in use is legal. Use
> of
> > > any
> > > > > > > > software that we don't have proof of licenses for can
> > > result in
> > > > > > > legal
> > > > > > > > action against Nova Roma.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Valete,
> > > > > > > > L. Sicinius Drusus
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] New Cives and Software choices
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 16:40:28 -0700

Salvete Quiritibus;

Brief comments on the recent discussions:

1-Software: Some people are very emotionally wrapped
up in their software choices, some are not. Those
that are not emotionally bound to this platform or
that, understand that there are strengths and
weaknesses inherent in *any* OS or application
platform. In short, use what you like, use what
you're used to.

In terms of compatibility, we know many of our
magistrates use MSO. StarOffice in turn presents
a very nice alternative for those that don't
wish to purchase a copy of MSO. It is largely compatible
with the MSO formats, although expect that some
complex formatting will *not* transfer consistently.
This scenario exists when transferring complex
formatting between *any* two platforms.
This should not be the situation with most of NR
documents though.

(Yes, my final public thoughts on it. Please do not
be offended if I comment no further.)

2-To all our new cives: I honestly can't think of any
civis that sincerely wishes ill upon our new citizens.
Despite whether or not you may agree with opinions stated
by myself and others, we are all in this together. The
issue is the *venue* itself; that being the main list.
The mainlist is the source of many a frustration -both
for new and old alike. It is a noisy sometimes quarrelsome
place and more often than not, little is ultimately
resolved on the list itself.

Keep in mind that there are many *active* Nova Romans
that don't even subscribe to this list because of
the 'noise' factor. This is why the Nova Roma announce
list was started. The sheer volume of mail and breadth
of opinion on the list makes it impossible for each
of us to respond to each other every time.
Please don't mistake this for ambivalence though.
NR is so much more than just the main list.

3-There's a lot of what I call 'mutual thought' here.
We have the situation where many similar streams of
thought can manifest themselves in parallel. It is
tempting for all of us to want to think our opinions
and suggestions are all unique. I've been there, many
of the senior magistrates have been there. All I can
say is: keep in mind when suggesting something that
it may *or* may not be a unique idea. Present it
as such. What works for me is saying something like...

"I have this idea, which is just my personal opinion.
If someone has come up with this before, please direct
me to the appropriate place in the archives. If so, what
was the final dispensation? If not, can we discuss it
now?" Or something to that effect. It works very well.

Bene valete,
Oppius

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Regarding new citizens.
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 22 Apr 2001 16:54:26 -0700

Salve Gnae Salix;
-----Original Message-----
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur [mailto:salixastur@--------]
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 3:07 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Regarding new citizens.

Salvete omnes, et salve Gaia.

I am also a new citizen, so I've known first hand what you are talking
about. I would also like that elders showed a more open attitude to
newcomers, but I am afraid that is just human nature, and surely
someone will always be ready to shoot down newcomers.

OFS: Actually, it's really more to do with list
dynamics. There will *always* be people willing to
shoot one another down over anything -whether it's
on this list or in some other facet of life.
In NR though, there are ways to dissipate this
tension though by simply realizing that all of
us want to be heard, have our ideas given credence
and feel that we are unique. -Sometimes we are,
sometimes we're not.

<snipped>

I think we should take a serious effort to integrate new citizens, and
"teaching" them what has been going on should be an important part of
it.

OFS: Very true. That's what we all should be doing.
If one just asks though, there are many cives willing
and able to help others wade through the waters of
NR. It may not seem like we're always helping one another
on the mainlist (an accurate observation! :-), but
the vast majority of us *are* willing to help each
other, whether we always agree with every point
of discussion or not. From my perspective for instance,
it matters not to me whether I have political agreement
with someone or not -if we can help each other as
Nova Romans and people, then so much the better!

Bene vale,
Oppius

<snipped>

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