| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: What to do with non-taxpayers |
| From: |
coriolanus@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 26 Apr 2001 05:31:30 -0000 |
|
Salve
There are two point of view that we can talk about.
add1.
If we want to restore Roman republican society completetly with all
good and bad points, you surely know that magistrates are nod paid
and takes all charges of their office.
If we are going this way, I'm accepting taxes and capite censi with
no coments. I'm even accepting, that all money will go to goverment
seat.
add2.
If we are trying to restore republican society with some improvements
I guess that proletarii is not improvement. I know that each office
has some necesary expenses and I'm not againts refundmet. You should
know that I'm not against the taxation, but I'm against way it seems
to be now.
Vale
Coriolanus
--- In novaroma@--------, "L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@e...>
wrote:
> Ave,
>
> To take the position of devil's advocate in this....let me ask you a
> question. Why should your vote be the same as mine. When I have
paid $500
> dollars to this organization and you dont pay any?
>
> And, another question, to you since you do not have the funds to
pay, is it
> still something in your agenda to eventually run for office? If
you do run
> for office how do you plan to pay for the necessary expenses such
as office
> supplies or phone calls and such? Email only goes so far when a
magistrate
> accumlates over 200 emails a day (I average about 250 myself).
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: What to do with non-taxpayers |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 25 Apr 2001 22:41:29 -0700 |
|
on 4/25/01 10:31 PM, coriolanus@-------- at coriolanus@-------- wrote:
> Salve
>
> There are two point of view that we can talk about.
Ave,
Actually there are more than two....because you still did not answer my
questions. You bypassed them and brought up other points. My questions are
still listed below.
The points you listed do no shed any new light other than you are not
against taxation, which I am pleased. For it is one thing for our
magistrates to donate their time and some of the funding necessary to do
their job. But its an entirely different animal for magistrates to
completely fund their exercise in performing their duty.
IMHO, a budget should be prepared, even included with the handbooks of
various positions so that future magistrates can have an idea of what they
are walking into. How much time will need to be devoted as well as
approximate financial expenditures. In the Censor handbook I will include a
section that will have some of this information included.
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> add1.
> If we want to restore Roman republican society completetly with all
> good and bad points, you surely know that magistrates are nod paid
> and takes all charges of their office.
> If we are going this way, I'm accepting taxes and capite censi with
> no coments. I'm even accepting, that all money will go to goverment
> seat.
>
> add2.
> If we are trying to restore republican society with some improvements
> I guess that proletarii is not improvement. I know that each office
> has some necesary expenses and I'm not againts refundmet. You should
> know that I'm not against the taxation, but I'm against way it seems
> to be now.
>
> Vale
>
> Coriolanus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, "L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@e...>
> wrote:
>> Ave,
>>
>> To take the position of devil's advocate in this....let me ask you a
>> question. Why should your vote be the same as mine. When I have
> paid $500
>> dollars to this organization and you dont pay any?
>>
>> And, another question, to you since you do not have the funds to
> pay, is it
>> still something in your agenda to eventually run for office? If
> you do run
>> for office how do you plan to pay for the necessary expenses such
> as office
>> supplies or phone calls and such? Email only goes so far when a
> magistrate
>> accumlates over 200 emails a day (I average about 250 myself).
>>
>> Respectfully,
>>
>> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Roman Republic or an American Democratic Republic |
| From: |
tflacco@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 26 Apr 2001 01:54:40 EDT |
|
In ancient Rome. The wealthy minority did rule the majority. I am not
justifying this but it is a fact.
Are we rebuilding Rome, or are we creating just another modified version of a
democratic republic such as the US or England????
This is a Roman Republic we are forming right? Not a Greek Democracy! Does
anyone realize that just the fact that everybody gets to vote makes us a
Democratic Republic?
But to quote Dennis from the Holy Grail, "Supreme executive power comes from
a mandate from the masses, and not because some watery tart lobbed a sword at
you" But then if Dennis was part of this forum he would be advocating an
autonomies collective wouldn't he?
The real power of the lay people in ancient Rome came from the Roman Mob.
Ancient Rush Limbau's use to stand outside the food lines and work the crowd
into a frenzy. If he really did his job they would storm the palace. The only
thing that could stop a Roman Mob was the Roman Army. If the Imperitor didn't
have the army's support, they let the mob past,,,, and ... Bingo new
emperor!!!!
I really like this forum because it has a bit of the same effect.
I am playing devils advocate here, (And a bit of a sarcastic one), I agree
that we should continue to have the power of the vote, but I do think we need
to think about the differences between what we are doing and what Rome really
was.
Another historical point that would be debated by some historians is this.
What made the Roman Republic Great is that Roman morality stated that all
effort made by a man was for the greater Glory of Rome. The fall of the
Republic and rise of the Empire was caused by those who put their personal
issues ahead of Rome!
Caesar amassed great power and command of his armies. Various Senators were
afraid of his power, and he was commanded to disband his army's and proceed
into Rome alone. Caesar knew he would be killed. He placed more importance on
himself then Rome and broke the most important rule. He crossed the river
with his army. And so ended the republic. Both Caesar and the Senate lost
touch with the true dynamic that was to be Roman. This was ALL IS FOR THE
GREATER GLORY OF ROME!
When we speak of sacrifice. This is something we need to Remember.
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: What to do with non-taxpayers |
| From: |
coriolanus@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 26 Apr 2001 06:05:48 -0000 |
|
sulla wrote
> >> To take the position of devil's advocate in this....let me ask
you a
> >> question. Why should your vote be the same as mine. When I have
> > paid $500
> >> dollars to this organization and you dont pay any?
Why not?
Am I worse citizen because I can not get together sufficient money to
pay tax? It is the same question. I'm working so hard as anyone but
I was unhappily not born in US.
Vale
Coriolanus
>
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Re: What to do with non-taxpayers |
| From: |
Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 26 Apr 2001 16:09:10 +1000 |
|
Oh Jupiter !!! - are we still on this tax thing - just pass the law and be
done with it - I have never seen so much procrastination - it makes the
public service look efficient...
Marcus Sentius Claudius
-----Original Message-----
From: coriolanus@-------- [mailto:coriolanus@--------]
Sent: Thursday, 26 April 2001 4:06 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Re: What to do with non-taxpayers
sulla wrote
> >> To take the position of devil's advocate in this....let me ask
you a
> >> question. Why should your vote be the same as mine. When I have
> > paid $500
> >> dollars to this organization and you dont pay any?
Why not?
Am I worse citizen because I can not get together sufficient money to
pay tax? It is the same question. I'm working so hard as anyone but
I was unhappily not born in US.
Vale
Coriolanus
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Taxes and non-US countries |
| From: |
Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 26 Apr 2001 19:10:22 +1000 |
|
Ave All,
Cannot this be overcome by registering Nova with MasterCard - this will
allow the transfer of funds easily as in our Country we will be able to just
pay on our MasterCard's/Visa for the levies ???? [Australia]
I had the similar problem recently in that I purchased some goods from Nova
and has to pay $25 AUD for the bank draft as Nova did not have MasterCard
facility - I am assuming as we grow we will get this facility so we can
accept international money transfers easily - we would just have to
incorporate the commission into the levy pricing decision.
Also Priscilla Vedia Serena, I agree with your comments re US Citizen and
payment issue - the truth is it should not be about USA versus the rest of
US. The simple fact is that a lot of the administration and the work
happens there, so this is where the cost will be incurred - IPSO FACTO.
Salve,
Marcus Sentius Claudius
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
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**********************************************************************
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Taxes and non-US countries |
| From: |
Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 26 Apr 2001 19:14:54 +1000 |
|
My comments below are from the following (my appologies)
From Priscilla Vedia Serena,
<<<Hmmmmmm. In your zest to continue your "us versus them" mind-set, you
seem
to have forgotten that the expenses discussed are NOVA ROMAN, not American.
The fact is that any given magistrate can be from any given nation on Earth.
Heavens, someday we might even be worrying about the "Belgian" expenses of
Magistrate Draco. The fact that you chose to put the point above in the
terms you did says quite a lot, sadly, about your ultimate approach to Nova
Roma.>>>
&
Sextus Apollonius Draco,
<<<
1. As has been argued before, sometimes the cost to send the money is higher
than the actual amount you're sending.
2. Some provinciae consist of multiple macronations, so how would you
arrange the currency problem?
3. Why should we pay for American expenses? What's our direct benefit?
4. It takes a while before the money reaches the US, and underway many
things can happen: it can get lost, and so on. >>>
Ave All,
Cannot this be overcome by registering Nova with MasterCard - this will
allow the transfer of funds easily as in our Country we will be able to just
pay on our MasterCard's/Visa for the levies ???? [Australia]
I had the similar problem recently in that I purchased some goods from Nova
and has to pay $25 AUD for the bank draft as Nova did not have MasterCard
facility - I am assuming as we grow we will get this facility so we can
accept international money transfers easily - we would just have to
incorporate the commission into the levy pricing decision.
Also Priscilla Vedia Serena, I agree with your comments re US Citizen and
payment issue - the truth is it should not be about USA versus the rest of
US. The simple fact is that a lot of the administration and the work
happens there, so this is where the cost will be incurred - IPSO FACTO.
Salve,
Marcus Sentius Claudius
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
**********************************************************************
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] 400 Subscribers! |
| From: |
cassius622@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 26 Apr 2001 07:50:23 EDT |
|
Salvete,
I just noticed this morning that the Nova Roma main list has reached 400
subscribers for the first time.
Although I'm not certain of the exact figures, I do believe that this means
we now have the highest percentage of "active" citizens ever. We're getting
close to 50% participation on the main list, where before we've averaged
something like 30%.
There are of course a number of Citizens who are active on other lists such
as the lists for the various Provinciae. However, that is more difficult to
keep track of when one tries to gauge how many people are keeping up with the
daily communication of Nova Roma. It's great to see so many people "in
contact"! :)
Valete,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Taxes and non-US countries |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 26 Apr 2001 08:36:48 -0400 |
|
Salve
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark A Bird [mailto:mark_a_bird@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 05:15
>
> Cannot this be overcome by registering Nova with MasterCard - this will
> allow the transfer of funds easily as in our Country we will be able to
just
> pay on our MasterCard's/Visa for the levies ???? [Australia]
Actually, we already do. :-) The PayPal service that is currently on the
website allows us to accept payments by both Visa and MasterCard (both
credit and debit cards) on-line in a secure environment. I know since it was
implemented earlier this year, many Citizens have taken advantage of the
service to make donations to the treasury. I would think the same service
would be used by cives to pay their taxes as well...
Next year in the Forum!
Vale,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul
email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Taxes and non-US countries |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 26 Apr 2001 09:00:12 -0400 |
|
Salve
> -----Original Message-----
> From: S. Apollonius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 09:26
>
> A thing many of the citizen from America seem to ignore is that
> it is really °difficult° to send money from other continents to
> America, because of the following reasons and objections:
One wonders just how difficult it is to type in one's Visa card number on a
website. Indeed, paying by credit card (and remember we already have the
PayPal system installed on the website; it would be a trifle to set it up
with a line for "Pay Taxes") eliminates most of the problems you mentioned.
However, you do make one statement I feel requires a response.
> 3. Why should we pay for American expenses? What's our direct benefit?
Your continued attempts to foment dissention, and your constant
anti-American bias, are as irksome as they are irrational. Will European
money end up paying for American projects? Certainly. Will American money
end up paying for European projects? Absolutely. And the same goes for
Australia, and South America, and everywhere we have cives. There is only
room for one sort of nationalism here; Nova Romanism.
We are talking about _Nova Roman_ expenses-- not _American_ expenses or
_European_ expenses, young Draco. Try to put aside your irrational fear and
hatred of America and realize that one of the two projects that's been
mentioned for next year's budget is sponsoring an archaeological dig at a
Roman site. If you think that it would be possible to sponsor such a dig in
America, you need to spend a little more time in your classes and a little
less time writing email.
Just as money from the treasury is being allocated to Roman Days, and
(hopefully) to RubiCon, so too would I expect it to be allocated to offset
some of the expenses for the European gathering that's been discussed here
and on the Vizantia list. I don't hear the Australians whining about their
money possibly going to pay for a European event...
We are talking about Nova Roman expenses, and shouldn't be concerned with
whether those monies are physically raised or spent in Europe, North
America, Australia, or Antarctica. The monies collected would come from Nova
Romans and would be spent on behalf of and for the benefit of Nova Romans,
and that is where the debate ends. If your fear and loathing of America is
so great that you can't even accept the fact that the bank account is here,
then I suggest you simply not contribute. I, for one, am weary of your
knee-jerk anti-Americanism, and as far as I am concerned the discussion
between yourself and myself on this subject is closed.
Vale,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul
email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] The Resignation Edict |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 26 Apr 2001 09:05:18 -0400 |
|
Salve
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix [mailto:alexious@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 15:36
>
> I think this edict should go to
> the Comitia Centuriata and be passed so that it changes the Constitution
> of Nova Roma.
I believe you are suffering from a bit of confusion on how our system works,
esteemed Censor. Merely passing a lex in the Comitia Centuriata does not
mean that it suddenly trumps the Constitution. Changes to the Constitution
must indeed be passed in the Comitia Centuriata, but that does not mean that
everything that's passed there is a Constitutional amendment.
In order to do what you're proposing, we would indeed have to amend the
Constitution. As it stands now, your edict is unconstitutional, because it
doesn't allow for resignation before three witnesses.
Next year in the Forum!
Vale,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul
email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Re: What to do with non-taxpayers |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 26 Apr 2001 09:08:35 -0400 |
|
Salve
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark A Bird [mailto:mark_a_bird@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 02:09
>
> Oh Jupiter !!! - are we still on this tax thing - just pass the law and
be
> done with it - I have never seen so much procrastination - it makes the
> public service look efficient...
A vote is currently planned for early-middle May. My apologies if our system
does not move swiftly enough to please you. It does take some time to set
these things up, and there are considerations of the calendar, candidates
for office must have time to present themselves to the voters, etc.
Next year in the Forum!
Vale,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul
email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] The Resignation Edict |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 26 Apr 2001 09:18:42 -0400 |
|
Salve
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus [mailto:haase@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 16:14
>
> No, the resignation can only be effective when it is made on an official
> Nova Roma list, or when one of the three witnesses contacts the Censores
> and names the other witnesses.
But, of course, that isn't the way the Constitution currently reads. It
states (paragraph II.A.4.) "Citizenship ... may be voluntarily relinquished
by notification of the censors or by public statement before three or more
witnesses." Seems pretty clear. Informing the censors is only one of two
options for people who want to resign.
I do like your idea, however, that the witnesses would be the ones to
contact the Censors in the resignee's stead. Seems a good balance between
the interests of the Censors in keeping the Album Civium up-to-date, and the
interests of individuals resigning who don't want to contact the government
directly (for whatever reason). Better to have some escape valve than to
simply have them drop out and remain in the Album Civium as ghosts...
Next year in the Forum!
Vale,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul
email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Magistrate Handbooks |
| From: |
ksterne@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 26 Apr 2001 13:57:49 -0000 |
|
Salvete,
L. Cornelius Sulla Felix wrote:
>>IMHO, a budget should be prepared, even included with the handbooks
of various positions so that future magistrates can have an idea of
what they are walking into. How much time will need to be devoted as
well as approximate financial expenditures.<<
Although they must be a lot of work, I reiterate what a good idea and
valuable resource the handbooks would be for civies considering
serving. Another piece of information that would be helpful is the
degree of internet/computer knowledge/resources a position might
require.
Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas
America Austrorientalis
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Re: What to do with non-taxpayers |
| From: |
"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 26 Apr 2001 10:01:14 -0400 |
|
Salve
> -----Original Message-----
> From: coriolanus@-------- [mailto:coriolanus@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 01:31
>
> If we want to restore Roman republican society completetly with all
> good and bad points, you surely know that magistrates are nod paid
> and takes all charges of their office.
By "takes all charges" I am assuming you mean "pays all expenses"? If that's
what you meant, you are incorrect. As I believe was mentioned yesterday,
much of what the magistrates did was indeed paid for out of the public
treasury. Surely you're not suggesting that Aediles paid for the games out
of their own pocket, or that roads and aqueducts were built and maintained
by private individuals, or that generals outfitted their own armies (well,
maybe Crassus...).
Now, it was indeed thought a great virtue for a magistrate to spend his own
money to supplement state funds; and that is pretty much what we have today.
To take one imminent example; at Roman Days this year, the state is paying
$150 for a hospitality suite. That will certainly cover the basics, but
hardly the whole affair. The rest will be paid by myself and other cives who
have volunteered to chip in some money to cover the rest of the expenses.
As has been mentioned, most magistrates spend at least some of their own
money, without reimbursement, on day-to-day expenses such as phone calls,
postage, etc. (not to mention their time). But for larger projects the State
must of course put up the funds! If not, nothing would ever get done.
And nobody is talking about paying salaries to magistrates, either. I'm not
sure where you got that idea from, exactly...
Next year in the Forum!
Vale,
Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul
email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Taxes and non-US countries |
| From: |
Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 26 Apr 2001 07:17:27 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salvete omnes; et salve, Consul Germanice.
--- Flavius Vedius Germanicus <germanicus@--------> wrote:
> Salve
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mark A Bird [mailto:mark_a_bird@--------]
> > Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 05:15
> >
> > Cannot this be overcome by registering Nova with MasterCard - this
> will
> > allow the transfer of funds easily as in our Country we will be
> able to
> just
> > pay on our MasterCard's/Visa for the levies ???? [Australia]
>
> Actually, we already do. :-) The PayPal service that is currently on
> the
> website allows us to accept payments by both Visa and MasterCard
> (both
> credit and debit cards) on-line in a secure environment. I know since
> it was
> implemented earlier this year, many Citizens have taken advantage of
> the
> service to make donations to the treasury. I would think the same
> service
> would be used by cives to pay their taxes as well...
>
> Next year in the Forum!
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
What about those of us who don't have a credit card? Although I'm
willing to pay taxes, I can't do it through Pay Pal. I guess that many
of our citizens (especially students) have the same problem.
=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Electronic Funds Transfers |
| From: |
lsicinius@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 26 Apr 2001 15:54:36 -0000 |
|
Salvete,
DISCLAIMER Since I Work for a Company that handles Funds Transfers,
this creates a conflict of Intrest between my Nova Roman citizenship
and my job in the area of electronic funds transfers.
The company I work for has handled a wide range of electronic funds
transfers dating back to 1871, when our Western Union division made
the first transfer, and can handle transfers from any of Nova Roma's
Provinces. Many of the companies that compete with my employer offer
similar services..
There are many options open to Nova Roma besides credit cards and
snail mailing checks. Since I have a conflict of intrest in this
matter, It would not be ethical for me to discuss these options. You
can view my company's web site at http://www.firstdata.com/100.jsp
and I urge you to check out other companies that offer transfer
services.
You will find a range of options, some of which may be useful to Nova
Roma.
Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Misperceptions (was "the survey" and "non-US" theme) |
| From: |
"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 26 Apr 2001 17:52:02 +0200 |
|
Salve Consul Vedi et Curatrix Sermonis Vedia,
In reply to Priscilla Vedia:
> >>I could have been more correct.>>
>
> You could have chosen to be "correct", period. Simple enough to do had
you
> bothered.
I admit a mistake. You jump down on my throat. That's a mistake, too.
> >>But I view the above wording as a euphimism of the actual result of this
> rule.>>
>
> Ahhhhhh....okay, this clarifies things. In other words, you didn't care
at
> all what your Province thinks of the *actual* policy. You only wanted to
> know what they though of your spin on it. Interesting.
>
> >>Mine might be peiorative, but it's simpler, and all in all, it's what it
> all comes down to.>>
>
> Oh please! Your "version" is wrong. Misleading. Inaccurate. The fact
> that you value your "spin" over the truth is quite telling of your methods
> and motives. To try and justify lying to your Provincial cives as
"simpler"
> is truly despicable. Shame on you!
>
What if I said the same? I'm sure you wouldn't agree with me. As for your
accusations of me being some type of fraud, see below.
> >>But it's no use debating over this; people largely agreed with the
policy
> anyway, so what
> use is there to fight over my way of questioning?>>
>
> To my mind, whether the cives saw through your attempted manipulation is
> irrelevant. At stake here is your character and how we now see you
conduct
> yourself. I find what you have done here, coupled with your attempt at
> justifying it, truly repugnant. You would do well to retire for some
quiet
> contemplation on how better to conduct yourself in the future, most
> especially when making any further attempts at "surveys".
As the Curatrix Sermonis, you should know better than to insult me.
Attempted manipulation? I think not. Out of the 6 respondees, I know 4 of
them outside the internet, and they are among my circle of friends. Would I
manipulate my own friends? Before telling me how I should behave, you could
look at your own behaviour first, and stop firing cannonballs at me. Thank
you in advance.
> >>3. Why should we pay for American expenses? What's our direct benefit?>>
>
> Hmmmmmm. In your zest to continue your "us versus them" mind-set, you
seem
> to have forgotten that the expenses discussed are NOVA ROMAN, not
American.
> The fact is that any given magistrate can be from any given nation on
Earth.
> Heavens, someday we might even be worrying about the "Belgian" expenses of
> Magistrate Draco. The fact that you chose to put the point above in the
> terms you did says quite a lot, sadly, about your ultimate approach to
Nova
> Roma.
>
I'm suspicious of financial control in the "capital" of Nova Roma, if you
want me to put it this way, that is across the Atlantic. You think I'm
paranoid, but if embezzlement can happen in Britannia (and NR can't do a
thing about it) it can happen across the ocean as well (without the foreign
people being able to do something about it). It has nothing to do with
"us-vs-them".
> For those of us here as cives of Nova Roma for our love of the nation and
a
> genuine desire to see her grow, the "direct benefits" speak for
themselves.
> For you, who by your own admission remained here in NR mainly to prevent
> "backstabbing" of those who deserted NR, I can see where you might not be
> capable of looking beyond your narrow agenda and seeing the bigger
picture.
> The fault, my boy, in this lies entirely within your own attitude, not the
> nation herself. Something for you to consider.
>
The fact that I am younger than you does not give you the right to display
arrogance towards me (and this counts for some other people, too). And above
all, you're twisting my words - I didn't say I would stay here °mainly° to
prevent my old friends from being backstabbed. If that was true, would I
have helped organizing the recent Cerealia / Romae Conditio contest? Would I
still be writing my NR fiction story? I think not.
In reply to Consul Vedius:
> > A thing many of the citizen from America seem to ignore is that
> > it is really °difficult° to send money from other continents to
> > America, because of the following reasons and objections:
>
> One wonders just how difficult it is to type in one's Visa card number on
a
> website. Indeed, paying by credit card (and remember we already have the
> PayPal system installed on the website; it would be a trifle to set it up
> with a line for "Pay Taxes") eliminates most of the problems you
mentioned.
> However, you do make one statement I feel requires a response.
Agreed that this counts for the people who have a Visa card. But a large
part does not have one; students for example, as Gnaeus Salix says. Or older
people, who aren't handy with paying over the internet. I'm not sure if this
is true, but I think that the largest part of eastern European people or
Asian people doesn't have a Visa card either. For those people, my
objections are still standing.
> > 3. Why should we pay for American expenses? What's our direct benefit?
>
> Your continued attempts to foment dissention, and your constant
> anti-American bias, are as irksome as they are irrational. Will European
> money end up paying for American projects? Certainly. Will American money
> end up paying for European projects? Absolutely. And the same goes for
> Australia, and South America, and everywhere we have cives. There is only
> room for one sort of nationalism here; Nova Romanism.
>
I agree on the last part. Your interpretation of my behaviour, however, is
wrong. If I was a fervent anti-American, would I still be here? Or would
some of my best friends be Americans? Instead of wildly accusing me, you
might offer substantial proof of your outrageous claims, in which you
portray me as some sort of seperatist internet-terrorist. And needless to
say, this isn't constructive °at all°.
> We are talking about _Nova Roman_ expenses-- not _American_ expenses or
> _European_ expenses, young Draco. Try to put aside your irrational fear
and
> hatred of America and realize that one of the two projects that's been
> mentioned for next year's budget is sponsoring an archaeological dig at a
> Roman site. If you think that it would be possible to sponsor such a dig
in
> America, you need to spend a little more time in your classes and a little
> less time writing email.
>
I don't hate America or Americans. But NR's expenses of today are still made
by them. Granted that asking for a contribution is fair and even normal. But
my main point is: how can foreign citizens excercise control over their
money when it is in a far away place?
And, by the way, I didn't even know of plans for sponsoring an archeological
dig. I won't even reply to your last comment, which was an example of plain,
needless sarcasm.
> Just as money from the treasury is being allocated to Roman Days, and
> (hopefully) to RubiCon, so too would I expect it to be allocated to offset
> some of the expenses for the European gathering that's been discussed here
> and on the Vizantia list. I don't hear the Australians whining about their
> money possibly going to pay for a European event...
>
This is a very good thing, and I can only agree with it.
> We are talking about Nova Roman expenses, and shouldn't be concerned with
> whether those monies are physically raised or spent in Europe, North
> America, Australia, or Antarctica. The monies collected would come from
Nova
> Romans and would be spent on behalf of and for the benefit of Nova Romans,
> and that is where the debate ends. If your fear and loathing of America is
> so great that you can't even accept the fact that the bank account is
here,
> then I suggest you simply not contribute. I, for one, am weary of your
> knee-jerk anti-Americanism, and as far as I am concerned the discussion
> between yourself and myself on this subject is closed.
>
The point is, that right now, most of the money gets spent in the US, and if
other people contribute, some funds can be raised for them (but how, by the
way?), but this will take time. In the meanwhile, the magistrates' US
phonebills will be paid by Australians and South Americans alike. We are all
Nova Romans. But each of us is an individual with a second national identity
just as well. No bias, no anti-whatever.
Valete bene,
Sextus Apollonius Draco,
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
Darkling_Crawler, Yahoo IM
"Come, fly the teeth of the wind;
share my wings" (FSOL)
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Misperceptions (was "the survey" and "non-US" theme) |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 26 Apr 2001 12:24:36 -0500 (CDT) |
|
Salvete Quirities,
S. Apollonius wrote:
> The fact that I am younger than you does not give you the right to display
> arrogance towards me (and this counts for some other people, too). And above
> all, you're twisting my words - I didn't say I would stay here °mainly° to
> prevent my old friends from being backstabbed. If that was true, would I
> have helped organizing the recent Cerealia / Romae Conditio contest? Would I
> still be writing my NR fiction story? I think not.
I agree. Draco does quite a bit of good work for Nova Roma, yet he is
constantly attacked, everything he dones judged in the worst possible
light, most likely because of his choice of gens. The posts to which
he is responding here were clearly inappropriate.
Can't we keep a reasonable level of respect here?
Valete, Octavius.
--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Roman Republic or an American Democratic Republic |
| From: |
"Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa" <vipsaniusagrippa@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 26 Apr 2001 12:58:31 -0600 |
|
Salvete
>The real power of the lay people in ancient Rome came from the Roman Mob.
>Ancient Rush Limbau's use to stand outside the food lines and work the
>crowd
>into a frenzy. If he really did his job they would storm the palace. The
>only
>thing that could stop a Roman Mob was the Roman Army. If the Imperitor
>didn't
>have the army's support, they let the mob past,,,, and ... Bingo new
>emperor!!!!
I feel student of classics about to graduate from university that I must
correct this statement. No emperor was replaced by a mob in the city of
Rome. Most coups were either by the praetorian guard or by generals
operating in the field (various emperors after the Severan dynasty). The
mobs to which you are refering had some degree of sway during the later
years of the republic, most notably lead by Milo and Clodius. The mobs were
organised by elected officials to increase their own power at the expense of
the constitutional equality of magistrates with the same office (ie both
consuls were to hold equal power and the ten tribunes had equal power
amongst each other).
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Getting Active |
| From: |
CW2ShaneEvans@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 26 Apr 2001 15:19:09 EDT |
|
How does one become more active in the Nova Roma Government? :o) I've got
some spare time laying around somewhere that I would like to kill.
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Misperceptions (was "the survey" and "non-US" theme) |
| From: |
"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 26 Apr 2001 15:55:55 -0400 |
|
Salve,
>>I agree. Draco does quite a bit of good work for Nova Roma,>>
Agreed. That has never been in debate that I am aware of. Hard work,
however, does not guarantee that one will not make errors in certain areas.
>>yet he is constantly attacked, everything he dones judged in the worst
possible
light,>>
"Constantly"? "Everything"? Hmmmm. I will have to go find the "attacks"
made against him for the Cerealia, etc. Sarcasm aside, he put forth a
survey to his province that contained a clearly erroneous question. A
question he could have taken the time to correct. When confronted on it, he
attempted to justify his action by saying "oh well, this is how *I* see it.
I called him on that and for that I make no apologies. Calling someone to
account for their actions is hardly an attack and is most certainly not
"constant" or pertaining to "everything" they do.
>>most likely because of his choice of gens.>>
Personally, I could care less what Gens anyone is in. I deal with people on
an individual basis. Far as I am concerned we are all individuals, not the
automatic product of our friends/allies/gens-mates etc. The fact that you
make such an assumption is quite telling however.
>>The posts to which he is responding here were clearly inappropriate.>>
You are certainly entitled toy our opinion on the matter. I see a definite
pattern in much of what Draco says and what his expressed concerns are. I
confronted him on that. If that is inappropriate in your book, well that is
okay by me.
>>Can't we keep a reasonable level of respect here?>>
Absolutely. Confronting someone on their actions and words is not
disrespectful.
Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena
Valete, Octavius.
--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Misperceptions (was "the survey" and "non-US" theme) |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 26 Apr 2001 16:31:27 -0500 (CDT) |
|
Salve Priscilla Vedia,
> Calling someone to account for their actions is hardly an attack
> and is most certainly not "constant" or pertaining to "everything"
> they do.
OK, that's true - the attacks on Draco aren't "constant". I'm just sick
of seeing him often called "my boy" and other such patronizing
and demeaning terms, and his age repeatedly invoked to explain why
he sees things the way he does. I'm young enough to remember that
tactic used against myself, and it's no more palatable now than it
was ten years ago... We all know he finds this insulting; continuing
to use such phrases gives your entire message a tone of arrogance.
> >>most likely because of his choice of gens.>>
>
> Personally, I could care less what Gens anyone is in. I deal with people
> on an individual basis.
I think his familial association with you-know-who may have coloured
the perception of his actions.
> Far as I am concerned we are all individuals, not the
> automatic product of our friends/allies/gens-mates etc. The fact that you
> make such an assumption is quite telling however.
"telling" of what?
I saw what I think is an unwarranted degree of rudeness towards someone
who may have made a mistake, but certainly did not do so maliciously, and
who just happens to share a name with a certain extremely controversial
person. Is it so wrong to suspect that there might be some connection?
> I confronted him on that. If that is inappropriate in your book, well
> that is okay by me.
It's not inappropriate, but calling him "my boy" certainly is.
Vale, O.
--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Electronic Funds Transfers |
| From: |
Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 26 Apr 2001 14:44:15 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salvete omnes; et salve, Sicinie.
Thank you for the information. But my question is: how much will it
cost? Wouldn't it be cheaper to put together all the taxes in the
Province and then send them together?
--- lsicinius@-------- wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> DISCLAIMER Since I Work for a Company that handles Funds Transfers,
> this creates a conflict of Intrest between my Nova Roman citizenship
> and my job in the area of electronic funds transfers.
>
> The company I work for has handled a wide range of electronic funds
> transfers dating back to 1871, when our Western Union division made
> the first transfer, and can handle transfers from any of Nova Roma's
> Provinces. Many of the companies that compete with my employer offer
> similar services..
>
> There are many options open to Nova Roma besides credit cards and
> snail mailing checks. Since I have a conflict of intrest in this
> matter, It would not be ethical for me to discuss these options. You
> can view my company's web site at http://www.firstdata.com/100.jsp
> and I urge you to check out other companies that offer transfer
> services.
>
> You will find a range of options, some of which may be useful to Nova
>
> Roma.
>
> Vale,
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Getting Active |
| From: |
SkaldElf@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 26 Apr 2001 18:48:40 EDT |
|
Salve,
There are many ways to become active in Nova Roma. Since you have mentioned
'Government' you may want to take a peek at the Nova Roma website (in case
you haven't already) or better yet talk to a current Magistrate perhaps they
could take you under their wing. Maybe a Scribe position could hidden in the
works, just rattling some ideas.
Vale,
Aeternia
|
