Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Upcoming CPoT Vote
From:	Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@-------->
Date:	Wed, 02 May 2001 01:07:10 +0200

Marcus Octavius Germanicus wrote:
> Surely in this case one of his friends will make the tax payment for him.
> We're talking of only 12 or 20 dollars here, a small amount for many of
> us, which we would gladly donate to sponsor a worthy citizen who cannot
> himself pay.
>
> But what sort of "leader" is it who cannot inspire even one of his
> followers to contribute $12 on his behalf?

Salvete, Marce Octavi Germanice.

The sort of leader unwilling to let his supporters pay his way. If
someone with enough money didn't pay taxes. it would be in protest
against taxation as such. He wouldn't want to encourage other citizens
to do so, if he was steadfast in his principles. Someone without
sufficient money, would probably not enjoy having to beg his friends for
money to support his running for office. The third type, are those who
simply are unwilling to pay taxes themselves, but not on principle, and
therefore are more than willing to let others cover their costs. And
these aren't the individuals I'm interested in promoting.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see in which way a person's ability or
inability to manipulate others into giving him/her money would make
him/her a better leader. It is my opinion, however, that the willingness
to do so would be a sure sign of the type of person I, for one, wouldn't
want to have as a leader.

However, some minor modification of this might be appropriate...just got
this idea, might be a suitable compromise: If supported by an elected
official/senator, a member of the Capiti Censi would be exempted from
III.C. How does this sound?

Suggested rephrasing of III.C:

C. No member of the capiti censi may run for or hold office as one of
the ordinarii (including the apparitores), nor be appointed to or hold
office as provincial governor, without the expressed support of at least
one citizen currently holding one of these offices. Members of the
Capiti censi may hold provincial or local offices at the discretion of
the governor of the province in question.

Does this proposal seem more agreeable? I'd enjoy some opinions on this
matter, as well as suggestions to an improved phrasing of this
modification of Consul Vedius original proposal.

Thank you all for your patience with me. I hope I'm not giving any
offense, and apologize if I have done so.

Valete,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consiliarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Where is our Vestal?
From:	SkaldElf@--------
Date:	Tue, 1 May 2001 19:27:20 EDT

Ave,

Prima Lucilla Cornelia Fortunata is Priestess of Vesta here in Nova Roma. And
that's all I will comment on without sounding too rude.

Vale,
Aeternia



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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Digest Number 1374
From:	"Navarra Reid" <optabilis@-------->
Date:	Tue, 1 May 2001 16:11:28 -0600

Salve S. Apollonius Draco et Alii

I've said very little on this list, but my feelings about the statement
below impel me to some sort of expression.

I think that I understand the concept you are trying to summarize, but I
disagree with the assessment that:

"...older people have more experience than younger people, period."

A 60 year old male may have lived longer than a 21 year old single mother,
but it is unlikely that he has experienced childbirth or motherhood. There
are many people who have not experienced life on the streets, drugs, or war
upon reaching old age. Experience is not that easy to quantify, I believe.
However, years of life is quantifiable and likely suggests more experiences
had (but not necessarily).

This is just my opinion.

Appia Claudia Indagatrix




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Grisly secrets of the 'civilising' Romans
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Tue, 1 May 2001 17:58:07 -0400

Salve Marce Quintili: Answers below.
----- Original Message -----
From: <MacG4CubeBoy@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Grisly secrets of the 'civilising' Romans


> In a message dated 4/30/2001 7:03:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> a.cato@-------- writes:
>
>
> > As far as I am aware, human sacrifice in Rome was done away
> > with during the time of the kings, before the Republic.
>
> And what would you call the mass amount of death that took place in the
games
> of Ancient Rome? I could regale you with many a tale about people
sacrificed
> before the Roman mob.

**** As I stated in my original post ..."...we can find much that was
wrong in Ancient Rome, I don't believe that this case should reflect on Rome
as a whole." I believe that this answers your question. Gladiatorial
"games" which started out as funeral "games", degenerated with time into a
"spectator sport". They were always disgusting as far as I am concerned. But
we also have to look at them in the context of time and place. During the
Republic and Empire I don't believe that gladiators were "sacrificed" to the
Gods and Goddesses of Rome with the official blessing of the State. The
Romans dedicated games to the Gods and Goddesses, but it was not a
"sacrifice".

Vale: Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, ... Rogator
"Inhumanitas omni aetate molesta est" - Cicero



> Marcus Quintilius Etruscus
>
> "How much more grievous are the consequences of anger than the causes of
it."
> -Marcus Aurelius
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




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Subject:	[novaroma] Test Message, Please reply
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Tue, 1 May 2001 18:37:17 -0400

Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato novaromanis S.P.D.

This is a test message. Could someone please reply if this makes it to the list? I seem to be having some kind of a problem with messages. Gratias tibi ago. A. Cato, ... Rogator.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Subject:	[novaroma] Test Only
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Tue, 1 May 2001 22:11:43 -0400

Just a test


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Subject:	[novaroma] Lost Contact
From:	pvitruviusiulianus@--------
Date:	Wed, 02 May 2001 00:55:30 -0000

Salvete omnes!

I was recently received an e-mail from a fellow Colorado, America
Austrocidentalis citizen. I thought I had printed it out, but it was
only after I purged many of my e-mails in my mail-box that I found
that I was mistaken. I am very sorry about this (loosing the contact
and having to post a personal message here) but if the person who e-
mailed me reads this, please just send me another e-mail again so we
could keep in contact at this address: patrickius@--------

Cum maxima gratia :-)!

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.




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Subject:	[novaroma] Fw: Test Message, Please reply
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Tue, 1 May 2001 19:24:07 -0400

----- Original Message -----
From: A. Cato
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 6:37 PM
Subject: Test Message, Please reply


Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato novaromanis S.P.D.

This is a test message. Could someone please reply if this makes it to the list? I seem to be having some kind of a problem with messages. Gratias tibi ago. A. Cato, ... Rogator.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Subject:	Fw: [novaroma] Grisly secrets of the 'civilising' Romans
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Tue, 1 May 2001 18:03:55 -0400

Salve: Not sure if this post made it. If it did, then please ignore this
one and accept my apologies. ... A. Cato
----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Grisly secrets of the 'civilising' Romans


> Salve Marce Quintili: Answers below.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <MacG4CubeBoy@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 2:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Grisly secrets of the 'civilising' Romans
>
>
> > In a message dated 4/30/2001 7:03:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > a.cato@-------- writes:
> >
> >
> > > As far as I am aware, human sacrifice in Rome was done away
> > > with during the time of the kings, before the Republic.
> >
> > And what would you call the mass amount of death that took place in the
> games
> > of Ancient Rome? I could regale you with many a tale about people
> sacrificed
> > before the Roman mob.
>
> **** As I stated in my original post ..."...we can find much that was
> wrong in Ancient Rome, I don't believe that this case should reflect on
Rome
> as a whole." I believe that this answers your question. Gladiatorial
> "games" which started out as funeral "games", degenerated with time into a
> "spectator sport". They were always disgusting as far as I am concerned.
But
> we also have to look at them in the context of time and place. During the
> Republic and Empire I don't believe that gladiators were "sacrificed" to
the
> Gods and Goddesses of Rome with the official blessing of the State. The
> Romans dedicated games to the Gods and Goddesses, but it was not a
> "sacrifice".
>
> Vale: Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, ... Rogator
> "Inhumanitas omni aetate molesta est" - Cicero
>
>
>
> > Marcus Quintilius Etruscus
> >
> > "How much more grievous are the consequences of anger than the causes of
> it."
> > -Marcus Aurelius
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>




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Subject:	[novaroma] Cybercards (was Pay Pal security question)
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Tue, 1 May 2001 17:40:31 -0700 (PDT)

--- Navarra Reid <optabilis@--------> wrote:
> Salve Omnes:
>
> Could someone tell me how secure the Pay Pal system is?
>
> Also, I imagine this has been covered, but...Are the proposed taxes
> of $12
> in American funds only? I live in Canada (nuff said).
>
> Appia Claudia Indagatrix
> materfamilias gens Claudia

Salvete omnes!

Just another question. Does PayPal support electronic cash cards? I
mean, can rechargeable cards of limited amount be used with it?



=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Pay Pal security question
From:	"Lucius Tiberius Sardonicus" <TSardonicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 02 May 2001 01:39:13 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Navarra Reid" <optabilis@h...> wrote:
> Salve Omnes:
>
> Could someone tell me how secure the Pay Pal system is?
>
> Also, I imagine this has been covered, but...Are the proposed taxes
of $12
> in American funds only? I live in Canada (nuff said).
>
> Appia Claudia Indagatrix
> materfamilias gens Claudia

Salve,

Pay Pal is secure in that it is sufficient for your needs. The
statement on the info page of Pay Pal states, "The encryption is
decipherable only by the holder of the corresponding PayPal key."
While this is not entirely true, this type of encryption is the most
secure method of transfer available to e-commerce, to date.

Regarding the tax of $12, no one (to my knowledge) has officially
proposed an amount of tax. The amounts used in various posts have
been examples used to express a point in the debate over whether or
not to allow individuals who do not pay taxes to hold public offices.

Any Lex Taxorum must include the definition of a "standard" based on
a nation's currency in relation to the global market. This has not
been proposed, nor is it up for vote at this time.

Vale,
Lucius Tiberius Sardonicus
Quaestor, Nova Roma




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Subject:	[novaroma] Test, Please Reply
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Tue, 1 May 2001 19:58:31 -0400

Salve: This is a test as I am having some sort of e-mail difficulty. If you receive this please reply.
Gratias tibi ago. A. Cato


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Where is our Vestal?
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Wed, 2 May 2001 11:41:33 +1000

What an odd response to the most innocent of enquiry...has she been buried
alive ???

Marcus Sentiius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: SkaldElf@-------- [mailto:SkaldElf@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, 2 May 2001 9:27 Am
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Where is our Vestal?


Ave,

Prima Lucilla Cornelia Fortunata is Priestess of Vesta here in Nova Roma.
And
that's all I will comment on without sounding too rude.

Vale,
Aeternia



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Pay Pal security question
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 01 May 2001 20:05:53 -0700

on 5/1/01 11:31 AM, Navarra Reid at optabilis@-------- wrote:

> Salve Omnes:
>
> Could someone tell me how secure the Pay Pal system is?
>
> Also, I imagine this has been covered, but...Are the proposed taxes of $12
> in American funds only? I live in Canada (nuff said).
>
> Appia Claudia Indagatrix
> materfamilias gens Claudia
>

Ave,

While everything on the Net isnt 100% secure....I trust Paypal...I have used
it at least 30 times this year alone...not to mention at least 50 times last
year...and I have never had a problem with it. I pay for most of my
purchases on Ebay through PayPal....its very convinent.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix




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Subject:	[novaroma] test
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Tue, 1 May 2001 20:58:39 -0400

test


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Pay Pal security question
From:	"J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@-------->
Date:	Wed, 02 May 2001 00:07:08 -0400

Navarra Reid wrote:

> Salve Omnes:
>
> Could someone tell me how secure the Pay Pal system is?

Salve!
I've been selling things on eBay using PayPal (bought stuff there, too, ditto) and have had no problems whatsoever!
fulvia





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Subject:	[novaroma] oath of office
From:	Caius Curius Saturninus <mikko.sillanpaa@-------->
Date:	Wed, 2 May 2001 07:45:23 +0300

I, Caius Curius Saturninus (Mikko Sillanpaa) do hereby solemnly swear
to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best
interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Caius Curius Saturninus (Mikko
Sillanpaa) swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public
dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private
life.

I, Caius Curius Saturninus (Mikko Sillanpaa) swear to uphold and
defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and
swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the
State Religion.

I, Caius Curius Saturninus (Mikko Sillanpaa) swear to protect and
defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Caius Curius Saturninus (Mikko Sillanpaa) further swear to fulfill
the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Praeses et
Triumvir Nova Roma Academia Thules to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the position of Praeses et Triumvir Nova Roma Academia
Thules and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and
responsibilities attendant thereto.

--
Caius Curius Saturninus
Legatus Regionis Finnicae

e-mail: c.curius@--------
www.insulaumbra.com/regiofinnica
gsm: +358-50-3315279
fax: +358-9-7262656



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Test Message, Please reply
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Wed, 2 May 2001 07:25:48 +0200

>Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato novaromanis S.P.D.
>
> This is a test message. Could someone please reply if this makes it
>to the list? I seem to be having some kind of a problem with messages.
>Gratias tibi ago. A. Cato, ... Rogator.

Salve Illustrus Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato!

Your message seems to be OK, at least I got it.

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
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************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
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************************************************
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Test Message, Please reply
From:	"J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@-------->
Date:	Wed, 02 May 2001 00:08:35 -0400

"A. Cato" wrote:

> Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato novaromanis S.P.D.
>
> This is a test message. Could someone please reply if this makes it to the list? I seem to be having some kind of a problem with messages. Gratias tibi ago. A. Cato, ... Rogator.

Salve A. Cato; you came through just fine!
A. Fulvia





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Subject:	[novaroma] Test
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 01 May 2001 22:33:26 -0700

Test

Sorry for this..but I am not getting hardly any posts at all today....Could
someone respond to this so that I know my posts are getting to the list.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Test Message, Please reply
From:	Piparskeggr Ullarsson <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Tue, 01 May 2001 22:56:21 -0500

Ave Appius Tullius!

"A. Cato" wrote:
>
> Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato novaromanis S.P.D.
>
> This is a test message. Could someone please reply if this makes it to the list? I seem to be having some kind of a problem with messages. Gratias tibi ago. A. Cato, ... Rogator.
>

Received you fine!

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===========================================
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Upcoming CPoT Vote
From:	Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 1 May 2001 22:55:18 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete, omnes!

I understand your views, however I do not agree with
them. I believe that an incentive to pay taxes
out-weighs lack of the ability to run for certain
offices for those who can't pay taxes but are
otherwise qualified. And while I think that having
their voting power diminished is enough of an
incentive, I would rather see good but imperfect tax
legislation pass than none at all.

Sine mala ad te,

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.


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Subject:	[novaroma] oath of office
From:	Caius Curius Saturninus <mikko.sillanpaa@-------->
Date:	Wed, 2 May 2001 07:43:56 +0300

I, Caius Curius Saturninus (Mikko Sillanpaa) do hereby solemnly swear
to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best
interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Caius Curius Saturninus (Mikko
Sillanpaa) swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public
dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private
life.

I, Caius Curius Saturninus (Mikko Sillanpaa) swear to uphold and
defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and
swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the
State Religion.

I, Caius Curius Saturninus (Mikko Sillanpaa) swear to protect and
defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Caius Curius Saturninus (Mikko Sillanpaa) further swear to fulfill
the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Procurator Nova
Roma Academia Thules to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the position of Procurator Nova Roma Academia Thules and
all the rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities
attendant thereto.

--
Caius Curius Saturninus
Legatus Regionis Finnicae

e-mail: c.curius@--------
www.insulaumbra.com/regiofinnica
gsm: +358-50-3315279
fax: +358-9-7262656



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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Upcoming CPoT Vote
From:	"Lucius Tiberius Sardonicus" <TSardonicus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 01 May 2001 14:40:46 -0000

Lucius Tiberius Sardonicus Tito Octavio Pio et Civibus Omnibus Novae
Romae S.P.D.

--- In novaroma@--------, Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@t...> wrote:

> To further clarify my opinion; If one of the Capiti Censi has the
> potential to become the greatest Consul/Propraetor/Whatever ever of
Nova
> Roma, with many followers, and no enemies, along with all the skills
> needed, should we deny ourselves his leadership abilities, just
because
> he hasn't paid his taxes? He may not be suited as a scriba, nor as
> another of the appointed positions. But he would be a great assett
to
> our beloved Res Publica in one of the offices the current proposal
would
> prevent him from ever attaining!

LTS: If, as you say, one of the Capiti Censi has the potential,
charisma and following, perhaps those supporters will be sufficiently
moved to donate money to pay the taxes required under the Lex.

> The problem here, I think, is that holding an office is considered
> something too positive for those unwilling/unable to contribute
> financially to Nova Roma. But remember, holding an office isn't all
> glamour. We have all read the recent postings regarding the
expenditures
> involved in holding, for example, the office of Censor. And don't
forget
> the countless hours required to perform the duties involved!

LTS: I agree. Holding an office is as much a responsibility as it
is a priviledge.

> I've read many posts recently comparing Nova Roma to private clubs
and
> other organizations. This is not a proper comparison. Nova Roma
aspires
> to one day become a nation, and in most modern-day nations, I doubt
> there are any laws prohibiting those who don't pay their taxes from
> holding public office. Public opinion in the matter may prevent
them,
> but legislation won't.

LTS: If we compare Nova Roma to most modern-day nations, we must
consider that refusal to pay taxes is a crime in most countries. In
the United States, there are laws which prohibit criminals from
holding public office. As an example, the Election Code of the State
of Texas reads, "To be eligible to be a candidate for, or elected or
appointed to, a public elective office in this state, a person
must...have not been finally convicted of a felony from which the
person has not been pardoned or otherwise released from the resulting
disabilities".

The inability to pay taxes is not a crime. To rephrase my statement
above, if one of the Capiti Censi is unable to pay taxes but has
sufficient following, those supporters may decide to pay the taxes in
his or her stead. If one of the Capiti Censi is able but refuses to
pay taxes, public opinion may be such that those supporters won't be
moved to pay taxes for that individual. Public opinion will,
therefore, provide the necessary checks and balances.

Vale,
L. Tiberius Sardonicus

If I beat a dead horse, does that make me a sadistic bestial
necrophile?




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Subject:	[novaroma] Provincial Newsletter Editor (Vestal)
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Wed, 2 May 2001 05:14:39 -0400 (EDT)

Citizens of Nova Roma;

I too am seeking Lucilla Cornelia Prima, but rather because she is my
Provincial Newsletter Editor (Nova Britannia) and Militarium Member.

She had promised a newsletter by the first week in April for the Eagle,
but I have not heard from her since very early in that month, and
although I have not known her for very long, she does not appear to be a
person who does not carry out an assignment to it's conclusion without
good reason.

I must assume a vital feeling of importance on her part for the task
given her, since she drove from Northern New Jersey to Newport R.I
(approximately 600+ miles round trip) and returned the same day for the
purpose of the face-to-face meeting planned in Newport with myself and
my Mas. Regio Legate Hadrianus.

I am concerned because she was, at March meeting, very excited about her
new Editor's task and shortly thereafter wrote me regarding her
appointment as the Nova Roma Vestal and her plans for that religious
position.

If anyone hears from her or becomes informed of her reasons for not
being in communication I would be most pleased and relieved to hear;

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
ProConsul -- Provincia Nova Britannia

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Subject:	[novaroma] Experience
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Wed, 2 May 2001 04:56:43 -0400 (EDT)

While I have always reminded those on this list about the value of
experience in human endeavor, I could not let the phase:

"older people have more experience. Period."

go by without comment.

In my world paradigm there have been a lot of people with "experience"
but in some cases the oft-termed "twenty year man" of military service
turns out to have a slightly different idea of experience than most of
us. That particular kind of experience can be described as "one years
experience twenty times" meaning, of course, that the individual
laboring under such a description has not learned anything new from his
experiences after the first year.

It is not my intention to denegrate the military here, I simply use it a
a possible example since it was there that I was intoduced to the first
such individual and the resulting descrptive phrase. Since that time, I
have met many individuals who wholly or in part meet that criteria,
civilian and mlitary alike. My young friend Draco has many times
appealed that not every "older" person has the unique experiences of an
entire lifetime and I agree most heartily with that premise. However,
in the real world (Thank God) such individuals are usually few and far
between, and further I have never found a single one who when asked who
the dummy was in a room, would ever raise his hand!!!!!

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens


Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Upcoming CPoT Vote
From:	Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@-------->
Date:	Wed, 02 May 2001 13:42:48 +0200

Patrick Ferguson wrote:
> I understand your views, however I do not agree with
> them. I believe that an incentive to pay taxes
> out-weighs lack of the ability to run for certain
> offices for those who can't pay taxes but are
> otherwise qualified. And while I think that having
> their voting power diminished is enough of an
> incentive, I would rather see good but imperfect tax
> legislation pass than none at all.

Salve, Patrici Vitruvi Iuliane.

Indeed, the current proposal is certainly better than none at all, but
since there is nothing preventing a modification to the existing
proposal, we can at least make an effort at "perfection" right away. I
posted a proposal of such a modification last night, and I'd appreciate
any thoughts on those thoughts, basically that an already elected
official would have to support a candidate among the capiti censi.

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consiliarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation


-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS d- s:++> a-- C++>$ ULS++ P+ L++ E- W++(--) N
o-- K- w--- !O M-- V-- PS->$ PE- Y+ PGP- t+@ 5- X-
R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !x-
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

---- BEGIN RP CODE BLOCK ----
RPaWfC R+++ H+++/--- I+++ M+++/- C- A+++ S+ G+ P+++/--- XPG
---- END RP CODE BLOCK ----

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Where is our Vestal?
From:	"Robert Woolwine" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 02 May 2001 05:36:29 -0000

I believe Aeternia was responding to our nameless poster.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

--- In novaroma@--------, Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@r...> wrote:
> What an odd response to the most innocent of enquiry...has she been
buried
> alive ???
>
> Marcus Sentiius Claudius
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sk--------lf@-------- [m--------o:Sk--------lf@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, 2 May 2001 9:27 Am
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Where is our Vestal?
>
>
> Ave,
>
> Prima Lucilla Cornelia Fortunata is Priestess of Vesta here in Nova
Roma.
> And
> that's all I will comment on without sounding too rude.
>
> Vale,
> Aeternia
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
**********************************************************************
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom
they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please
notify
> the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.
>
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
> for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
>
**********************************************************************




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Upcoming CPoT Vote
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 2 May 2001 14:21:19 +0200

Salvete omnes,

Regarding the taxation, I must agree with Titus Octavius. Not being able to
pay taxes doesn't mean not being able to serve Nova Roma in the capacity of
an office (excluding perhaps Curator Aeraenum (sp?) or Censor, that seem
very expensive offices). I would hate to see this become a money-centered
society. For me, putting people who aren't willing to pay in the 5th century
is enough.

Lucius Tiberius makes a point about criminals not being able to run for
office, and that not paying taxes is considered a crime in macronations.
True, but in macronations, you get things in exchange for the tax you pay
(well, in civilized countries you do), such as protection by armed forces,
protection of your rights, and a local fire department that will come to the
rescue when your house is burning down. If I get mugged in an alley
tomorrow, the criminal that mugged me isn't going to face Nova Roman
justice, but macronational. Granted that the amount of tax we are talking
about is very small, compared to macronational tax, and you won't hear me
complaining about it (unless for poor countries, perhaps), but the
comparison with macronations isn't really a sound one.

Valete bene,
Sextus Apollonius Draco,
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
Darkling_Crawler, Yahoo IM


"Come, fly the teeth of the wind; share my wings" (FSOL)




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Subject:	[novaroma] Need Contact Information for Census
From:	Brian Tillery <britil@-------->
Date:	Wed, 2 May 2001 09:56:22 -0500

Caius Fabius Varus
Iulia Aenea Apollonia Drusilla
Marcus Livius
Iona Sententiosa Britaega
These are the cives listed in the Album Civium for the Territory of Oklahoma
in America Austroccidentalis. I need each of theses cives to please send me
their contact information for the Provincial Census. Please send me your
Current E-mail Address, Phone Number, and Mailing Address. Thank you.

Marcus Flavius, Legate
britil@-------- <mailto:britil@-------->



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Test
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Wed, 2 May 2001 09:53:16 -0500 (CDT)

Salve,

> Sorry for this..but I am not getting hardly any posts at all today....Could
> someone respond to this so that I know my posts are getting to the list.

This problem apparently affected all of yahoogroups yesterday; posts were
very slow to arrive on this and other lists. Something I posted yesterday
morning took over an hour to be distributed.

Vale, O.

M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Fw: Test Message, Please reply
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Wed, 2 May 2001 09:31:52 -0700 (PDT)

--- "A. Cato" <a.cato@--------> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: A. Cato
> To: novaroma@--------
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 6:37 PM
> Subject: Test Message, Please reply
>
>
> Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato novaromanis S.P.D.
>
> This is a test message. Could someone please reply if this makes
> it to the list? I seem to be having some kind of a problem with
> messages. Gratias tibi ago. A. Cato, ... Rogator.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

Subject:	[novaroma] Test
From:	TSardonicus@--------
Date:	Wed, 02 May 2001 13:03:40 EDT

My apologies. Sent- 1:04 PM May 2nd via e-mail



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Subject:	[novaroma] Censor Sulla's Test Post
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Wed, 2 May 2001 14:15:01 -0400 (EDT)

Censor Sulla;

Your test post was included in the Novaroma Mainlist offering this date.

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Subject:	[novaroma] Test
From:	"Lucius Tiberius Sardonicus" <TSardonicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 02 May 2001 17:04:42 -0000

My apologies. Posted to list yahoo groups webpage at above time and
date.

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Test
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Wed, 2 May 2001 09:51:30 -0700 (PDT)

Salve.

I have received it.

Bona Fortuna!

--- "L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@--------> wrote:
> Test
>
> Sorry for this..but I am not getting hardly any posts at all
> today....Could
> someone respond to this so that I know my posts are getting to the
> list.
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Test, Please Reply
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Wed, 2 May 2001 09:53:34 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes.

What's the problem? Why so many test posts? Are you all O.K.?

--- "A. Cato" <a.cato@--------> wrote:
> Salve: This is a test as I am having some sort of e-mail difficulty.
> If you receive this please reply.
> Gratias tibi ago. A. Cato
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Provincial Newsletter Editor (Vestal)
From:	mansker@--------
Date:	Wed, 02 May 2001 15:12:18 -0000

If this is the same Lucilla Cornelia Prima who has been involved in
the musarum, I was informed that she was ill several weeks ago during
the contest and that she would not be able to participate.

I believe that Pompeia Cornelia Strabo was the one who informed me of
this.

I don't know if she is still ill, but I know that she was very ill at
the time.

Gaia Flacca Severa
--- In novaroma@--------, jmath669642reng@w... wrote:
> Citizens of Nova Roma;
>
> I too am seeking Lucilla Cornelia Prima, but rather because she is
my
> Provincial Newsletter Editor (Nova Britannia) and Militarium Member.
>
> She had promised a newsletter by the first week in April for the
Eagle,
> but I have not heard from her since very early in that month, and
> although I have not known her for very long, she does not appear to
be a
> person who does not carry out an assignment to it's conclusion
without
> good reason.
>
> I must assume a vital feeling of importance on her part for the task
> given her, since she drove from Northern New Jersey to Newport R.I
> (approximately 600+ miles round trip) and returned the same day for
the
> purpose of the face-to-face meeting planned in Newport with myself
and
> my Mas. Regio Legate Hadrianus.
>
> I am concerned because she was, at March meeting, very excited
about her
> new Editor's task and shortly thereafter wrote me regarding her
> appointment as the Nova Roma Vestal and her plans for that religious
> position.
>
> If anyone hears from her or becomes informed of her reasons for not
> being in communication I would be most pleased and relieved to hear;
>
> Respectfully;
> Marcus Audens
> ProConsul -- Provincia Nova Britannia
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
>
> http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Subject:	[novaroma] Tax Equality and Communication
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Wed, 2 May 2001 15:06:32 -0400 (EDT)

Citizens of Nova Roma;

In actuality there has been quite a bit of discussion in regard to the
subject item over the years that I have been associated with NR. It is
a subject that is periodically "rediscovered" by new Citizens who have
not reviewed the archives. It was recognized literally from the first
gasp of this much discussed tax proposal an previous such proposals
including my own that there are several problems in Tax equality the
world over. Some of these realities are:

--Students on a very strict budget;

--Special cases of people who cannot pay the full amount for good
reason;

--The difference in value of a given selected amount of tax in different
countries;

--The cost of sending small amounts of funding from country to counrtry;

--The use of the tax money, and the possible allotment of it to various
provinces.

Generally speaking students on a strict budget and those who are in
financial straits for a variety of reasons can appeal to the government
for relief. These people are probably covered in the present tax
proposal.

The difference in value of a given selected tax amount variously
announced as $12 or $15 dollars American was debated extensively.
Probably the fairest idea for a balanced tax is to base the amount of
tax on the value of the nation's gross national product index, however
that will take some workng out, other that the presentation of ideas, as
I have often said.

The cost of sending small amounts of the tax by Pay Pal seems to have
solved that problem for those who have or can get access.

The use of the Tax money has always been one of concern to many. A good
portion of the present NR treasury has been placed in an investment
package as per last years NR budget. A portion has been set aside for
possibl use in organizational events such as Roman Days in Maryland, for
which some money has been allotted to establish an activity involved in
further the NR Outreach at a large and well advertised event.

The recent unfortunate business with the Provincia Britannia, has slowed
the idea of Provincial Treasuries supported by NR Tax money, but the
Govenors and the Elected Magistrates of this Consulship are working
towards a solution to that problem. Recent ideas formulated by some of
the Govenors may be ahead of our laws in some respects, so those
opportunities must be worked out carefully and thoroughly. For those of
you who have not noticed -- the works of government "grind exceeding
slow" simply because there is much and many to consider.

In closing, I can esteem my colleagues both in the rank of Govenors, and
in this year's Consular Admiistration in that they have addressed the
concerns of the NR Citizens exceeding well, in my opinion, and for the
most part with grace and patience. There have been set-backs that is
true, misunderstandings and resulting anger, but in the time I have
spent in Nova Roma the only attribute that has completely cut off
negotiation is the refusal to be willing to communicate. There has only
been one genteman who has refused to communicate with me over a
misunderstanding. While I regret exceedingly his failure to communicate
with me and his resulting resignation (he was and is a good man) I
think that % quite admirable in a population of 800+.
Many of those who have left still correspnd with me, and while I regret
thier decision to leave NR, I value exceedingly thier willingness to
continue our communication.

In my reenactment unit we have a rule which we give to each new member
about the three most important considerations of the unit. These are
"Attendance, Attendance, Attendance"--for any other problem can be
worked out except the lack of attendance. For NR I would modify that
because a very large percentage of our involvement in NR is not
face-to-face as yet.

So I would say, Communicate, Communicate, Communicate are the three
basic needs today, with a generous dollop of the realization that those
whom you have elected are working hard for the best in Nova Roma and
have the best interests of NR at heart. Those few in NR who do not,
will fall by the wayside because the effort to foment problems is simply
too difficult in a large organization who trusts those they have
selected.

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

The above are my own opinions, and do not necessarily reflect the
specific views of those in who's hands the government presently rests.
My opinons are arrived at after listening to those who wish to speak on
topics that interest me. It was for that purpose I joined NR, and it is
for that purpose that I remain.
MMA

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Test
From:	"J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@-------->
Date:	Wed, 02 May 2001 15:42:54 -0400

"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" wrote:

> Test
>
> Sorry for this..but I am not getting hardly any posts at all today....Could
> someone respond to this so that I know my posts are getting to the list.

Yup, this one made it to the list just fine!
fulvia

>
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Upcoming CPoT Vote
From:	"Lucius Tiberius Sardonicus" <TSardonicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 02 May 2001 13:49:40 -0000

Salvete,

--- In novaroma@--------, Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@t...> wrote:
> Marcus Octavius Germanicus wrote:
"The sort of leader unwilling to let his supporters pay his way. If
someone with enough money didn't pay taxes. it would be in protest
against taxation as such. He wouldn't want to encourage other
citizens to do so, if he was steadfast in his principles."

LTS: By refusing to pay taxes as a way of protest, such a person
would place the financial burden of Nova Roma on the shoulders of
people who do pay taxes.

"Someone without sufficient money, would probably not enjoy having to
beg his friends for money to support his running for office. The
third type, are those who simply are unwilling to pay taxes
themselves, but not on principle, and therefore are more than willing
to let others cover their costs. And these aren't the individuals I'm
interested in promoting."

LTS: If someone cannot afford to pay taxes, why put that person in
the unenviable position of requiring other people to finance the
expenses associated with holding an office?

"I'm sorry, but I fail to see in which way a person's ability or
inability to manipulate others into giving him/her money would make
him/her a better leader. It is my opinion, however, that the
willingness to do so would be a sure sign of the type of person I,
for one, wouldn't want to have as a leader."

LTS: You put a suprising twist on the suggestion that support for
candidacy of one of the Capiti Censi would include monetary
sponsorship in order to pay any required taxes. I fail to see how
that is manipulation.

"However, some minor modification of this might be appropriate...just
got this idea, might be a suitable compromise: If supported by an
elected official/senator, a member of the Capiti Censi would be
exempted from III.C. How does this sound?

Suggested rephrasing of III.C:

C. No member of the capiti censi may run for or hold office as one
of the ordinarii (including the apparitores), nor be appointed to or
hold office as provincial governor, without the expressed support of
at least one citizen currently holding one of these offices. Members
of the Capiti censi may hold provincial or local offices at the
discretion of the governor of the province in question."

LTS: There are several different cases at issue here. To put it
simply, there will be those who can't pay and those who will refuse
to pay. As has been said before, short of auditing an individual's
finances, there isn't a way to fairly differentiate between the two.
There are operating costs in any organization. There are expenses
associated with performing the duties of the offices mentioned in the
proposed Lex. The expressed support of one citizen for another does
not mitigate the latter's responsibility to support Nova Roma
financially. It may be that in order to fulfill that responsibility,
one of the Capiti Censi must find a suitable benefactor.

Valete,
L. Tiberius Sardonicus













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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Tests Thanks. Yahoo Groups Problem?
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Wed, 2 May 2001 16:40:56 -0400

Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato novaromanis S.P.D.
I would like to thank all those who replied to my test posts. I
noticed that a few other groups that I belong to also had a few people
sendindg in test posts and wonder if it is possible that Yahoo Groups was
having some sort of problem that crossed their whole Groups Lists. Ave
atque vale, ... A. Cato, ... Rogator
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Fw: Test Message, Please reply


>
> --- "A. Cato" <a.cato@--------> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: A. Cato
> > To: novaroma@--------
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 6:37 PM
> > Subject: Test Message, Please reply
> >
> >
> > Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato novaromanis S.P.D.
> >
> > This is a test message. Could someone please reply if this makes
> > it to the list? I seem to be having some kind of a problem with
> > messages. Gratias tibi ago. A. Cato, ... Rogator.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> Bene Valete!
> Gnaeus Salix Astur.
> Civis romanus.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Subject:	[novaroma] posting issues with the list
From:	darkelf@--------
Date:	Wed, 02 May 2001 19:36:57 -0000

Yahoo Groups is having problems in general. Digests seem to
be OK, but the individual posts are getting eaten by cyberbeasts.
Or something.

Cinnabari




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Test Message, Please reply
From:	oppiusflaccus@--------
Date:	Wed, 02 May 2001 01:08:33 -0000

Salve Appi Tulli!

Message received, though I'm also having problems with all
my yahoogroups, so you may not be alone. Currently, am
having to resort to reading messages on the website.

Bene vale,
Oppius

--- In novaroma@--------, "A. Cato" <a.cato@s...> wrote:
> Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato novaromanis S.P.D.
>
> This is a test message. Could someone please reply if this
makes it to the list? I seem to be having some kind of a problem with
messages. Gratias tibi ago. A. Cato, ... Rogator.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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Subject:	[novaroma] =?iso-8859-1?Q?I=B4m_new_here...?=
From:	fred schlichting <fred_schlichting@-------->
Date:	Wed, 02 May 2001 12:17:03 +0200

Hello fellow roman citizens!

I´m fascinated about the idea of a (virtual) rebirth of the roman culture.
Now, after joining the mailing-list, I would like to be integrated into
Nova Roma. What is to be done?

Thanks, Fred Schlichting

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Upcoming CPoT Vote
From:	"Lucius Tiberius Sardonicus" <TSardonicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 02 May 2001 16:15:36 -0000

Salve, Sexte Apolloni Draco

--- In novaroma@--------, "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@p...>
wrote:

> Regarding the taxation, I must agree with Titus Octavius. Not being
able to
> pay taxes doesn't mean not being able to serve Nova Roma in the
capacity of
> an office (excluding perhaps Curator Aeraenum (sp?) or Censor, that
seem
> very expensive offices). I would hate to see this become a money-
centered
> society. For me, putting people who aren't willing to pay in the
5th century
> is enough.

There are at least two cases at issue, true. People that can't
afford to pay and people that refuse to pay for whatever reason.
Without the ability to perform an audit of each citizen's finances,
there is no fair way to differentiate between the two.

> Lucius Tiberius makes a point about criminals not being able to run
for
> office, and that not paying taxes is considered a crime in
macronations.
> True, but in macronations, you get things in exchange for the tax
you pay
> (well, in civilized countries you do), such as protection by armed
forces,
> protection of your rights, and a local fire department that will
come to the
> rescue when your house is burning down. If I get mugged in an alley
> tomorrow, the criminal that mugged me isn't going to face Nova Roman
> justice, but macronational. Granted that the amount of tax we are
talking
> about is very small, compared to macronational tax, and you won't
hear me
> complaining about it (unless for poor countries, perhaps), but the
> comparison with macronations isn't really a sound one.

My response to Titus Octavius was based on his statement that
comparison to macronations was more appropriate than comparison to
clubs or other organizations.

My response to you in this matter, is that you will get things in
exchange for your taxes. There are many Citizens of Nova Roma
performing services that benefit you now, at no cost to yourself.
Someone is paying for them.

Vale,
L. Tiberius Sardonicus

Subject:	[novaroma] Yahoo Groups E-mail Problems?
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Wed, 2 May 2001 17:48:54 -0400

Salve: I am wondering if we are having a problem with a source at Yahoo Groups? I see that I am not the only one having problems, and other people at a coin collectors group list have also been having trouble and sending test messages.
Vale, ... A. Cato, ... Rogator


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Subject:	[novaroma] Provincial Newsletter (Vestal)
From:	trog99@--------
Date:	Wed, 02 May 2001 20:47:53 -0000

Salvete Omnes:
Just to clarify, regarding the two Lucillas... I was speaking of
Lucilla Cornelia Cinna, with respect to the Musarum Contest, and not
Prima Lucilla Cornelia Fortunata, who is the Vestal.

As for our Vestal, I am not aware of the status of her to date,
either.

Bene valete,
Pompeia Cornelia




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