Forum Romanum


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Answers to various replies to my post
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 10:00:11 +1000

Salve Titus Sertorius Albinus.

Given that you now are telling misstruths I will no longer participate in
the converasation on this matter with you - yes Britain is good enough for
your money but our nation is not ...

Marcus Sentius Claudius

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Subject:	[novaroma] Tribune Sertorius's absence
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 17:14:36 -0700

Ave,

I have been asked to make a brief statement for my friend Quintus Sertorius.
He apologizes for his absence at this time. His mother in law has had a
severe heart attack and he will be away for the time being. The last update
I received from him is the outlook is not optimistic. For the time being he
will be a way supporting and comforting his immediate family. I do not know
if he will have access to a computer, so if you have any messages please
send them to me and I will make certain he gets any and all correspondence.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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Subject:	[novaroma] Poll results for novaroma
From:	novaroma@--------
Date:	16 May 2001 01:16:17 -0000

The following novaroma poll is now closed. Here are the
final results:

POLL QUESTION: Do you think that an additional control
system should be implemented for
citizenship applications?

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- No, I think it's a waste of time and money., 14 votes, 31.11%
- Yes, I'd like that provincial bodies helped censores in the control of citizenship applications through electronic means., 24 votes, 53.33%
- Yes, and I'd rather go back to the snail mail system., 4 votes, 8.89%
- Yes, but provincial governments should not get involved, in order to keep information in the safe hands of the censores., 3 votes, 6.67%

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Answers to various replies to my post
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 20:30:58 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Propraetor Tite Sertori,

> I said that I was NOT threatening to resign, but that the Lex Vedia
> does not allow non-taxpayers to hold office, and that I would not pay
> taxes on principle. So I would be unable to hold office.

I must disagree with your assertation that that was not a threat
to resign.

This law places a duty upon all elected and appointed magistrates, the
duty to pay one's fair share to financially support the republic.

You have stated that you will not do this. You've stated that, rather
than refraining from paying because you lack the resources to do so,
that you are choosing not to pay due to a principle.

In other words, you have admitted that you intend to deliberately
neglect a responsibility of your office and will therefore leave that
office.

I cannot see that as anything other than an intentional resignation.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	[novaroma] ALERT! POSSIBLE ELECTION TAMPERING
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 21:57:04 EDT

Salvete,

This is to alert all citizens of a possible attempt to tamper with the
current election.

This evening I witnessed a conversation in the Roman Outpost Chat, a chatroom
run by the recently resigned ex-citizen Maria Villarroel {formerly known as
Lucia Maria Peregrina} and a person using the chat alias of "Rattus".

During the conversation, after saying how he wanted to cause disruption in
the Nova Roma chatroom as a "guest" {specifically to harrass Censor Lucius
Cornelius Sulla}
'Rattus' made the following comment:

" We know how they make their voter codes, so could invent one and see if we
get in"

Who is Rattus? Maria set her chatroom up so that anyone who types a message
has not only the chat alias shown, but the IP number is shown as well.
Rattus IP number is 206-173-102-96

The IP of ex-citizen Moravius Piscinus is 206-173-102-59 on 3/17/01.

The difference is the last set of numbers is due to being on a dial-up
service with a dynamic IP addy. So....it appears Piscinus is contemplating
getting into our voting system.

I post this to warn all magistrates, rogators, and Octavius to please check
and recheck the system and see if any intrusions have been made.

And for those of you who still grieve over Piscinus resignation, please
consider the character of a man who would seriously suggest such an action.

Gaius Cassius Nerva

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Answers to various replies to my post
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 11:56:15 +1000

Thankyou Marcus Octavius Germanicus - I had thought that I was going mad or
reading something that was not there >>>>

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus [mailto:haase@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, 16 May 2001 11:31 Am
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Answers to various replies to my post

Salve Propraetor Tite Sertori,

> I said that I was NOT threatening to resign, but that the Lex Vedia
> does not allow non-taxpayers to hold office, and that I would not pay
> taxes on principle. So I would be unable to hold office.

I must disagree with your assertation that that was not a threat
to resign.

This law places a duty upon all elected and appointed magistrates, the
duty to pay one's fair share to financially support the republic.

You have stated that you will not do this. You've stated that, rather
than refraining from paying because you lack the resources to do so,
that you are choosing not to pay due to a principle.

In other words, you have admitted that you intend to deliberately
neglect a responsibility of your office and will therefore leave that
office.

I cannot see that as anything other than an intentional resignation.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Is there something wrong with me?
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 22:06:53 EDT

In a message dated 5/15/01 2:45:47 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
domusludus@-------- writes:

> So I must ask: Is there something wrong with me? I voted yes to the taxes.
> It just makes sense to me.
>
>
> Pax vobiscum,
> Seia Silvania Atia
>
>

Greetings,
thank you for your simple honest words. I am like you in the financial sense
and can afford $12.00 a year . Even though I am looking at some serious heavy
stuff in the next few months. Nova Roma is precious and worth any investment
I can make.

Prima Anncinna Drusila

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] ALERT! POSSIBLE ELECTION TAMPERING
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 12:07:38 +1000 (EST)

Ave Gaius Cassius,

Can you actually prove that it was Gnaeus Moravius
Piscinus? If so, by all means you have a right to
publish this. But until you give us proof that you are
one hundred percent certain of who the person was,
perhaps it would have been better to leave this
off-list?

No-one likes an untruth more than the person it is
aimed at, especially if the allegations are untrue. If
you can give specific proof, rather than a slightly
varied IP address, I would be more than happy to
acknowledge your claim. But until that point in time,
this is no more or less than gossip. For example, do
you think this "evidence" would hold up in a court of
law?

Valete bene,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

Legatus Australia Medius
Sacerdos Mars Invictus

--- gcassiusnerva@-------- wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Salvete, 
 
This is to alert all citizens of a
possible attempt to tamper with the 
current election. 
 
This evening I witnessed a conversation in the Roman
Outpost Chat, a chatroom 
run by the recently resigned ex-citizen Maria
Villarroel {formerly known as 
Lucia Maria Peregrina} and a person using the chat
alias of "Rattus". 
 
During the conversation, after saying how he wanted to
cause disruption in 
the Nova Roma chatroom as a "guest"
{specifically to harrass Censor Lucius 
Cornelius Sulla} 
'Rattus' made the following comment: 
 
" We know how they make their voter codes, so
could invent one and see if we 
get in" 
 
Who is Rattus? Maria set her chatroom up so that
anyone who types a message 
has not only the chat alias shown, but the IP number
is shown as well. 
Rattus IP number is 206-173-102-96 
 
The IP of ex-citizen Moravius Piscinus is
206-173-102-59 on 3/17/01. 
 
The difference is the last set of numbers is due to
being on a dial-up 
service with a dynamic IP addy. So....it appears
Piscinus is contemplating 
getting into our voting system. 
 
I post this to warn all magistrates, rogators, and
Octavius to please check 
and recheck the system and see if any intrusions have
been made. 
 
And for those of you who still grieve over Piscinus
resignation, please 
consider the character of a man who would seriously
suggest such an action. 
 
Gaius Cassius Nerva 
 
 
 
[Non-text portions of this message have been
removed] 
 
</tt>

 



<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Answers to various replies to my post
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 14:02:51 -0400

Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Odysseus49@-------- [mailto:Odysseus49@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 1:03 PM
>
> the Lex Vedia does not
> allow non-taxpayers to hold office, and that I would not pay taxes on
> principle. So I would be unable to hold office.

Actually this is not entirely true. The lex, as presented, prohibits
non-taxpayers from holding office in the "central government". Individuals
who fail to pay taxes (whether through their choice or through force of
circumstance) may still hold office at the provincial or local level at the
discretion of the provincial governor. Indeed, that is specifically allowed
for in the lex.

Once again, it seems that the argument is being dragged forth that the only
way to contribute to Nova Roma is by running for office. Not only is this is
a straw-man argument (mainly set up by those who would oppose anything to do
with taxes, no matter what form they take), but it does an enormous
disservice to those who are already making enormous contributions as
provincial appointees, officers in the various sodalitates, holders of
priestly offices, and even individual contributors to this and other email
lists.

The lex as presented is fair. It provides incentive for people to pay taxes
that may be levied by the Senate, but doesn't completely cut out those who
do not. I would once again remind you all that not being able to run for
office is much less "harsh" than being removed from Citizenship.

Next year in the Forum!

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] ALERT! POSSIBLE ELECTION TAMPERING
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 21:17:03 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Gai Cassi,

> This is to alert all citizens of a possible attempt to tamper with the
> current election.

Thanks for your concern, but I don't think this is anything to worry
about.

> " We know how they make their voter codes,

Absolute nonsense; no one has ever seen the program I use for this. And,
as I intend to show now, knowing how they are allocated still doesn't
help. It's simple enough to demonstrate mathematically how difficult
it would be to place a fraudulent vote.

A voter code consists of three random letters, followed by three random
digits. The last digit is always even for plebeian voters and odd for
patricians.

There are 17.6 million possible voter codes using this method.
(26^3 * 10^3)

> " We know how they make their voter codes,
>so could invent one and see if we get in"

When you place a vote, the voter code is looked up in a database to
ensure it is valid, and to determine the tribe or century, thus:

"select tribe,century,patrician from cives where votercode=?"

("?" is a placeholder for the voter code the user typed.)
This query will therefore return either one or zero citizen records.
If the vote is not found, then the ballot is marked as 'NOT FOUND',
and the vote-counting program ignores it.

So the only way to place is to attempt to guess voter codes. With 872
citizens who can vote, the chance of correctly guessing a code is
approximately 1 in 20,000.

After the vote is placed, the page displayed to the user is identical,
whether or not the vote was actually accepted. This is intentional,
so that an intruder doesn't immediately know whether he was successful.

If someone placed 20,000 random votes, the Rogatores would notice; and
I could then use the time stamped on each vote and the server logfiles
to identify the miscreant.

> Who is Rattus? Maria set her chatroom up so that anyone who types a message
> has not only the chat alias shown, but the IP number is shown as well.
> Rattus IP number is 206-173-102-96

96.102.173.206.in-addr.arpa name = ts002d36.akr-oh.concentric.net.

A Concentric.net dialup in Akron OH.

> The IP of ex-citizen Moravius Piscinus is 206-173-102-59 on 3/17/01.

59.102.173.206.in-addr.arpa name = ts001d47.akr-oh.concentric.net.

> The difference is the last set of numbers is due to being on a dial-up
> service with a dynamic IP addy. So....it appears Piscinus is contemplating
> getting into our voting system.

Don't worry; my security measures are more than a match for him!

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] ALERT! POSSIBLE ELECTION TAMPERING
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 22:21:32 EDT

Sura,

Why not ask him directly?

Nerva

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] ALERT! POSSIBLE ELECTION TAMPERING
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 22:22:19 EDT

In a message dated 5/15/01 7:17:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, haase@--------
writes:

> Don't worry; my security measures are more than a match for him!
>
>

Thanks Octavius. I can speak only for myself here, but that is a relief.
Thanks for explaining the situation!

Nerva

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Subject:	[novaroma] Lex Vedia
From:	rabotnik@--------
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 20:35:38 -0000

Petrus Artorius Longinus to my opponents and all Nova Roma Cives
S.P.D.
Salve!
i know that Lex Vedia de assidui et capiti censi is not about taxes
you said that senate is able to set taxes as high as it wish anytime
want so what for was whole thouse "support our republic vote yes"
etc. Lex Vedia de assidui et capiti censi clearly tells how to punish
people who not pay taxes this is the tool of punishment and i cant
agree for this because i thought only court can tells who deserve for
punishment. this law also breake the trust to Nova Roma our Republic.
usually when you want to be member of web page you got to pay for,
you know what you can get, will sombody tells me what can i get when
i will pay in Nova Roma, more than not to be punish ? to study roman
culture the mailing list seems to be enough and it is for free also
you could find servers to put in Nova Roma web pages also for free
so tell me please for what you want money from taxes.
you have some vision and i respect that but maybe you should share
with cives and tell us about your plans. maybe you should persued
people to that. i cant blindly say yes to proposed by you laws
somtimes i have to say no when somthing goes wrong in my oppinion and
i have right to do that thereby i have to say again NO to Lex Vedia
de assidui et capiti censi
Vale bene!

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Lex Vedia
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 19:34:57 -0700

Ave,

Let me state I am impressed at the dramatic improvement in your carrying the
English Language...may I ask just who is preparing your posts?

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

on 5/15/01 1:35 PM, rabotnik@-------- at rabotnik@-------- wrote:

> Petrus Artorius Longinus to my opponents and all Nova Roma Cives
> S.P.D.
> Salve!
> i know that Lex Vedia de assidui et capiti censi is not about taxes
> you said that senate is able to set taxes as high as it wish anytime
> want so what for was whole thouse "support our republic vote yes"
> etc. Lex Vedia de assidui et capiti censi clearly tells how to punish
> people who not pay taxes this is the tool of punishment and i cant
> agree for this because i thought only court can tells who deserve for
> punishment. this law also breake the trust to Nova Roma our Republic.
> usually when you want to be member of web page you got to pay for,
> you know what you can get, will sombody tells me what can i get when
> i will pay in Nova Roma, more than not to be punish ? to study roman
> culture the mailing list seems to be enough and it is for free also
> you could find servers to put in Nova Roma web pages also for free
> so tell me please for what you want money from taxes.
> you have some vision and i respect that but maybe you should share
> with cives and tell us about your plans. maybe you should persued
> people to that. i cant blindly say yes to proposed by you laws
> somtimes i have to say no when somthing goes wrong in my oppinion and
> i have right to do that thereby i have to say again NO to Lex Vedia
> de assidui et capiti censi
> Vale bene!
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: ALERT! POSSIBLE ELECTION TAMPERING
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 02:45:39 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Jerr--------guston <gaiussentius@--------> wrote:
> Ave Gaius Cassius,
>
> Can you actually prove that it was Gnaeus Moravius
> Piscinus? If so, by all means you have a right to
> publish this. But until you give us proof that you are
> one hundred percent certain of who the person was,
> perhaps it would have been better to leave this
> off-list?
>
> No-one likes an untruth more than the person it is
> aimed at, especially if the allegations are untrue. If
> you can give specific proof, rather than a slightly
> varied IP address, I would be more than happy to
> acknowledge your claim. But until that point in time,
> this is no more or less than gossip. For example, do
> you think this "evidence" would hold up in a court of
> law?
>
> Valete bene,
>
> Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura
>
> Legatus Australia Medius
> Sacerdos Mars Invictus
>

Salvete,
The name rattus is a clue.
On the Ides of March a comment was made calling Piscinus a "Rat" after
he resigned, and this handle may be refering to that comment.
Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] The vote
From:	"Tickle Tickle" <tickletickle15@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 22:57:21 -0400

Hi!

I've been lurking here for a couple of months, and just wanted to say I
don't like any of the new laws that we're supposed to be voting on. Being
active in the gay rights movement, I have natural problems with the gender
law thing, and I agree with the people who say that putting a waiting limit
on people who want to come back after leaving is punishing them. But really
this whole taxes thing just sucks. I joined nova roma thinking that there
weren't any limits on the poor and that anyone was welcome here. I'd hate to
see that it's only the people who live in rich countries who are welcome. I
haven't been all that active here for a bunch of reasons (including a move),
but I'll be leaving if we start discriminating against people just because
they don't have as much money as I do. I'm new, so what I say probably
doesn't matter anyway. No biggie. It's not like I've had a lot to commit to
so far. I'd like to, but I don't know if I can if these things pass. I
thought a pagan group like this would be more progressive.

Just some thoughts.

Kat
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The vote
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 20:06:56 -0700

Ave

My comments below:

on 5/15/01 7:57 PM, Tickle Tickle at tickletickle15@-------- wrote:

> Hi!
>
> I've been lurking here for a couple of months, and just wanted to say I
> don't like any of the new laws that we're supposed to be voting on. Being
> active in the gay rights movement, I have natural problems with the gender
> law thing,

I am glad you have voiced your opinion but let me ask you, have you read the
name change law. First off, it has nothing to do with being active in any
gay rights movement. The edict has to do with Roman names. Not sexual
preference. My best friends are gay and I love them as a brother. I would
never author a law that would infring on their rights. I am very sensitive
about discrimination of any type. For those citizens who do not know, back
in 1998, I sued my former employer California Baptist College becuase they
fired me becuase I am Jewish. So, I take any complaint of discrimination
very seriously, and I will fight against discrimination. This law does not
discriminate at all.

and I agree with the people who say that putting a waiting limit
> on people who want to come back after leaving is punishing them.

I disagree, I believe others who are for this law have spoken more
eloquently than I have on this matter.

But really
> this whole taxes thing just sucks. I joined nova roma thinking that there
> weren't any limits on the poor and that anyone was welcome here. I'd hate to
> see that it's only the people who live in rich countries who are welcome.

Now to comment on this. Did you read the website? Did you read the
Constitution. Both spell quite clearly the aims and goals of Nova Roma.
And even spell out powers to our magistrates and our Senate in regards to
Taxes. My goal as a citizen of Nova Roma is to help Nova Roma Achieve her
goals, this means macronational goals of eventually getting land and that
means we need a sustained source of revenue. I am for Taxes. But, let me
state that I believe taxes shoudl be balnaced between those nations and
regions that can afford it and those that cannnot.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Lex Vedia
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 03:08:29 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave,
>
> Let me state I am impressed at the dramatic improvement in your
carrying the
> English Language...may I ask just who is preparing your posts?
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Ave Luci Corneli,

I disagree. Since Marcus Apollonius Formosanus mentioned that Petrus
Artorius was his Scriba in an earlier post, I think that Petrus
Artorius would have turned to him if he wished to have someone else
prepare a post for him, and this post shows none of Marcus Apollonius'
style. Instead it shows that Petrus Artorius put a lot of hard work
into laying out his concerns about the Lex Vedia de assidui et capiti
censi.

I may not agree with him on the Lex, but Petrus Artorius has earned my
respect. It is not an easy task to comment on something like this in a
language that you are not familar with, and he has done a very good
job of making his thoughts known to us.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Tax issue
From:	Piparskeggr Ullarsson <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 22:20:16 -0500

Avete omnes,

Time for my bad, blunt self to come out.

Where in Hades does this cursed "vow of poverty" stuff come from???!!!

Rome was one of the wealthiest societies ever, per capita.
Romans did their duty of supporting the State, whether they wanted to, or not.
If one is serious about one's Romanitas, the duty is to render unto the Senate and People.

I'm a flippin' Germanic heathen, and I shall gladly pay the paltry fees/dues/taxes/whatever.

If we want to turn this into something beyond an informative website and contentious mailing list
(and by the encouraging reports of trips, feasts, military exercises, etceteras, we do) then the
harsh reality is, WE NEED FINANCES!!! A regular method of finances.

It is month to month for my personal finances. I have given a large amount (for me) of money to
Nova Roma (and Heathen, conservation, historical, fraternal and political organizations), money with
which I could have bought my wife nicer birthday gifts, or taken her to dinner or to the theatre,
etceteras. Money for niceties, money which could have enhanced my quality of life. But I give,
because I believe and I support that in which I believe.

One Heathen group to which I belong has dues of $15 per month.

Every free-will organization I belong to charges for the privilege and heartache of holding office.

I say, if you can not or will not pay "taxes," you have no stake in the building of this Nation.
This ain't one of the flavor of the month on-line covens or kindreds or whatever. These folks are
as serious as a heart attack about making this work.

If you are offended by this, get over it.

--
===========================================
Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Cives since Quintilis 2251 AUC,
Paterfamilias Gens Ulleria

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Subject:	[novaroma] Lex Madness
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 13:23:47 +1000

Ave

Regardless of the language barrier I will simply not respect any fellow
citizen that votes for our republic NOT being able to establish a revenue
base - all fellow citizens will benefit from this law - it is like someone
not paying union fees and will be accepting pay rises that the union obtains
for all workers - in our country we call these people scabs and dogs - of
course I do not make the same name calling here.

Vale

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix [mailto:alexious@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, 16 May 2001 12:35 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Lex Vedia

Ave,

Let me state I am impressed at the dramatic improvement in your carrying the
English Language...may I ask just who is preparing your posts?

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

on 5/15/01 1:35 PM, rabotnik@-------- at rabotnik@-------- wrote:

> Petrus Artorius Longinus to my opponents and all Nova Roma Cives
> S.P.D.
> Salve!
> i know that Lex Vedia de assidui et capiti censi is not about taxes
> you said that senate is able to set taxes as high as it wish anytime
> want so what for was whole thouse "support our republic vote yes"
> etc. Lex Vedia de assidui et capiti censi clearly tells how to punish
> people who not pay taxes this is the tool of punishment and i cant
> agree for this because i thought only court can tells who deserve for
> punishment. this law also breake the trust to Nova Roma our Republic.
> usually when you want to be member of web page you got to pay for,
> you know what you can get, will sombody tells me what can i get when
> i will pay in Nova Roma, more than not to be punish ? to study roman
> culture the mailing list seems to be enough and it is for free also
> you could find servers to put in Nova Roma web pages also for free
> so tell me please for what you want money from taxes.
> you have some vision and i respect that but maybe you should share
> with cives and tell us about your plans. maybe you should persued
> people to that. i cant blindly say yes to proposed by you laws
> somtimes i have to say no when somthing goes wrong in my oppinion and
> i have right to do that thereby i have to say again NO to Lex Vedia
> de assidui et capiti censi
> Vale bene!
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Tax issue
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 13:27:58 +1000

Well said Piperbarbus !!!

Vale

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: Piparskeggr Ullarsson [mailto:catamount_grange@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, 16 May 2001 1:20 Pm
To: Nova Roman Forum
Subject: [novaroma] Tax issue

Avete omnes,

Time for my bad, blunt self to come out.

Where in Hades does this cursed "vow of poverty" stuff come from???!!!

Rome was one of the wealthiest societies ever, per capita.
Romans did their duty of supporting the State, whether they wanted to, or
not.
If one is serious about one's Romanitas, the duty is to render unto the
Senate and People.

I'm a flippin' Germanic heathen, and I shall gladly pay the paltry
fees/dues/taxes/whatever.

If we want to turn this into something beyond an informative website and
contentious mailing list
(and by the encouraging reports of trips, feasts, military exercises,
etceteras, we do) then the
harsh reality is, WE NEED FINANCES!!! A regular method of finances.

It is month to month for my personal finances. I have given a large amount
(for me) of money to
Nova Roma (and Heathen, conservation, historical, fraternal and political
organizations), money with
which I could have bought my wife nicer birthday gifts, or taken her to
dinner or to the theatre,
etceteras. Money for niceties, money which could have enhanced my quality
of life. But I give,
because I believe and I support that in which I believe.

One Heathen group to which I belong has dues of $15 per month.

Every free-will organization I belong to charges for the privilege and
heartache of holding office.

I say, if you can not or will not pay "taxes," you have no stake in the
building of this Nation.
This ain't one of the flavor of the month on-line covens or kindreds or
whatever. These folks are
as serious as a heart attack about making this work.

If you are offended by this, get over it.

--
===========================================
Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Cives since Quintilis 2251 AUC,
Paterfamilias Gens Ulleria

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Lex Vedia
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 20:37:19 -0700

on 5/15/01 8:08 PM, lsicinius@-------- at lsicinius@-------- wrote:

> --- In novaroma@--------, "L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@e...> wrote:
>> Ave,
>>
>> Let me state I am impressed at the dramatic improvement in your
> carrying the
>> English Language...may I ask just who is preparing your posts?
>>
>> Respectfully,
>>
>> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> Ave Luci Corneli,
>
> I disagree. Since Marcus Apollonius Formosanus mentioned that Petrus
> Artorius was his Scriba in an earlier post, I think that Petrus
> Artorius would have turned to him if he wished to have someone else
> prepare a post for him, and this post shows none of Marcus Apollonius'
> style. Instead it shows that Petrus Artorius put a lot of hard work
> into laying out his concerns about the Lex Vedia de assidui et capiti
> censi.
>
> I may not agree with him on the Lex, but Petrus Artorius has earned my
> respect. It is not an easy task to comment on something like this in a
> language that you are not familar with, and he has done a very good
> job of making his thoughts known to us.
>
> Vale,
> L. Sicinius Drusus

Ave,

Thanks for the information....I did not know M. Apollonius had a scribe....I
missed that post.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The vote
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 03:46:56 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Tickle Tickle" <tickletickle15@h...> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I've been lurking here for a couple of months, and just wanted to say I
> don't like any of the new laws that we're supposed to be voting on.
Being
> active in the gay rights movement, I have natural problems with the
gender
> law thing,

I have voiced concerns over the section of the proposed law regarding
gender, however the debate isn't about "IF" a citizen can change their
name to one that doesn't match their physical sex, but rather about
the procedure to get a name change. It more of a debate about how far
we should go to insure that our Roman names are historicaly accurate.

and I agree with the people who say that putting a waiting limit
> on people who want to come back after leaving is punishing them.

If you read the Archives, you will find that Nova Roma has a long
standing problem with people resigning thier citizenship either out of
a moment of anger, or to protest something. The law provides a nine
day "cooling off" peroid for those who resign due to a loss of temper.
This isn't "The Roman Club" where membership is taken lightly, It's a
Micro Nation, where citizenship should be held in the highest regard.
My problem with this Lex is it is too leniant on those who hold office
and betray the sacred oath by abbandoning office often for a trivial
reason.

But really
> this whole taxes thing just sucks. I joined nova roma thinking that
there
> weren't any limits on the poor and that anyone was welcome here. I'd
hate to
> see that it's only the people who live in rich countries who are
welcome.

As long as we don't have taxes the magistrates have to pay ALL the
expenses of holding office, so NOT having taxes discriminates against
citizens from the poorer countries. If it's a hardship for someone to
come up with US$ 12.00, then what chance do they have of comming up
with the several hundred dollars that it costs many of our magistrates
spend during their term in office?

I
> haven't been all that active here for a bunch of reasons (including
a move),
> but I'll be leaving if we start discriminating against people just
because
> they don't have as much money as I do. I'm new, so what I say probably
> doesn't matter anyway. No biggie. It's not like I've had a lot to
commit to
> so far. I'd like to, but I don't know if I can if these things pass. I
> thought a pagan group like this would be more progressive.

"Citizenship is open to anyone regardless of ethnic heritage, gender,
religious affiliation, or sexual orientation."
Section II A 3 of the Nova Roman Constitution.

Sounds pretty progressive to me!

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Lex Madness
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 04:09:26 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@r...> wrote:
> Ave
>
> Regardless of the language barrier I will simply not respect any fellow
> citizen that votes for our republic NOT being able to establish a
revenue
> base - all fellow citizens will benefit from this law - it is like
someone
> not paying union fees and will be accepting pay rises that the union
obtains
> for all workers - in our country we call these people scabs and
dogs - of
> course I do not make the same name calling here.
>
> Vale
>
> Marcus Sentius Claudius
>
Ave,

The Language barrier has kept us from keeping some of our citizens as
informed as we should about what we plan to do with the money. We have
discussed many plans in ENGLISH, but what have we done to insure that
our citizens who aren't fluent in english are aware of these plans?

"so tell me please for what you want money from taxes. you have some
vision and i respect that but maybe you should share with cives and
tell us about your plans. maybe you should persued people to that. i
cant blindly say yes to proposed by you laws"

Petrus Artorius is asking us what we intend to do with his money. That
is a right all citizens have. We have failed to keep our citizens who
aren't fluent English speakers informed of our plans. That is a fault
we need to seek a remedy for, rather than lightly dismissing the
concerns of a citizen who's needs we have ignored.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Lex Vedia
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 04:19:28 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, rabotnik@w... wrote:
> Petrus Artorius Longinus to my opponents and all Nova Roma Cives
> S.P.D.
> Salve!
> i know that Lex Vedia de assidui et capiti censi is not about taxes
> you said that senate is able to set taxes as high as it wish anytime
> want so what for was whole thouse "support our republic vote yes"
> etc. Lex Vedia de assidui et capiti censi clearly tells how to punish
> people who not pay taxes this is the tool of punishment and i cant
> agree for this because i thought only court can tells who deserve for
> punishment. this law also breake the trust to Nova Roma our Republic.
> usually when you want to be member of web page you got to pay for,
> you know what you can get, will sombody tells me what can i get when
> i will pay in Nova Roma, more than not to be punish ? to study roman
> culture the mailing list seems to be enough and it is for free also
> you could find servers to put in Nova Roma web pages also for free
> so tell me please for what you want money from taxes.
> you have some vision and i respect that but maybe you should share
> with cives and tell us about your plans. maybe you should persued
> people to that. i cant blindly say yes to proposed by you laws
> somtimes i have to say no when somthing goes wrong in my oppinion and
> i have right to do that thereby i have to say again NO to Lex Vedia
> de assidui et capiti censi
> Vale bene!

Ave,

Since you are a newcomer to this list I'll try to catch you up on some
of the things that have been discussed regarding the tax money.

1) Helping to sponser an archlogical dig of a roman site.
2) Aid to students of Latin.
3) Sponsering more events like Roman Days. This includes events in Europe.
4) Paying some of the costs of holding office so more citizens can
afford to be a magistrate.

I have to admit that there are no firm plans, and we can't afford
everything that has been proposed, but we are making some very
worthwhile plans for the money if the Senate approves taxes.

Vale,
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Lex Madness
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 14:22:15 +1000

I am sorry I have some difficulty accepting this - I have travelled the
world - literally - one thing in common with all cultures is that an economy
exists where people want to buy and people want to sell - they use barter or
money to do this - THIS IS UNIVERSAL - unless of course some of our citizens
live in a vacuum - the simple fact is that NOVA does not have a revenue base
- any person RUSSIAN SPANISH or AUSTRALIAN knows that - I mean selling nice
flags (however good that they bare as I bought two the other week) will not
allow NOVA to grow - the sticker and flags are good - but for the resources
(thanks to a few who volunteer their time), the turnover is simply not
there.

What do we need money for - a simple look at the web site will clearly tell
you that...

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: lsicinius@-------- [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, 16 May 2001 2:09 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Lex Madness

--- In novaroma@--------, Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@r...> wrote:
> Ave
>
> Regardless of the language barrier I will simply not respect any fellow
> citizen that votes for our republic NOT being able to establish a
revenue
> base - all fellow citizens will benefit from this law - it is like
someone
> not paying union fees and will be accepting pay rises that the union
obtains
> for all workers - in our country we call these people scabs and
dogs - of
> course I do not make the same name calling here.
>
> Vale
>
> Marcus Sentius Claudius
>
Ave,

The Language barrier has kept us from keeping some of our citizens as
informed as we should about what we plan to do with the money. We have
discussed many plans in ENGLISH, but what have we done to insure that
our citizens who aren't fluent in english are aware of these plans?

"so tell me please for what you want money from taxes. you have some
vision and i respect that but maybe you should share with cives and
tell us about your plans. maybe you should persued people to that. i
cant blindly say yes to proposed by you laws"

Petrus Artorius is asking us what we intend to do with his money. That
is a right all citizens have. We have failed to keep our citizens who
aren't fluent English speakers informed of our plans. That is a fault
we need to seek a remedy for, rather than lightly dismissing the
concerns of a citizen who's needs we have ignored.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Answers to various replies to my post
From:	marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 04:48:19 -0000

Salve Marcus Octavius Germanicus,

> This law places a duty upon all elected and appointed magistrates,
the
> duty to pay one's fair share to financially support the republic.

Yes, but through your own resources, for your own projects, such as
Censor Sulla has done. It cannot yet be a duty to pay taxes, because
a tax law has not been implemented.

> You have stated that you will not do this. You've stated that,
rather
> than refraining from paying because you lack the resources to do
so,
> that you are choosing not to pay due to a principle.

Correct.

> In other words, you have admitted that you intend to deliberately
> neglect a responsibility of your office and will therefore leave
that
> office.

No. I had not realised it was a responsibility to pay $12 to the
treasury in America, nor do I view it as a responsibility.
Therefore I am not leaving that office. Cives, I intend to stay. No
tax law stating how much will have to be paid has been passed, so
there is no need as yet to pay taxes. Therefore I can stay. And if
I am allowed to stay afterwards, so much the better.

NB: I am writing this under Curiobritannicus' username, with him
standing beside me, because I am unable to log on to my own.

Vale,
Titus Sertorius Albinus.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Lex Madness
From:	exitil@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 01:09:50 EDT

In a message dated 5/15/01 10:30:24 PM Central Daylight Time,
mark_a_bird@-------- writes:

> Ave
>
> Regardless of the language barrier I will simply not respect any fellow
> citizen that votes for our republic NOT being able to establish a revenue
> base - all fellow citizens will benefit from this law - it is like someone
> not paying union fees and will be accepting pay rises that the union
obtains
> for all workers - in our country we call these people scabs and dogs - of
> course I do not make the same name calling here.
>
> Vale
>
> Marcus Sentius Claudius

Perhaps though, of their dues, the citizen could choose what the dues go
toward?

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Lex Madness
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 15:15:53 +1000

Ave Whoever Posted this Post ,

I believe that the body elected should have the power to do that - this will
allow strategy to be put in place to enable Nova to meet it's goals and
objectives - I think that is utterly idealistic to think that we can have a
say to say in the day to day budget allocations of the revenue, however we
do get this right we elect certain officials to office...

Vale

Marcus Sentius Claudius

By the way - could citizens refrain from sending me nasty e-mails off this
list - if you disagree with me - do it publicly - I will be removing my
private e-mail from the list as I cannot receive nasty e-mails at work - I
am sorry if my bluntness offends people, but this could not be taken as a
personal offence - if you wish to enter that arena than I will do so - but
would prefer to do it by me home e-mail which is
markbird@--------

-----Original Message-----
From: exitil@-------- [mailto:exitil@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, 16 May 2001 3:10 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Lex Madness

In a message dated 5/15/01 10:30:24 PM Central Daylight Time,
mark_a_bird@-------- writes:

> Ave
>
> Regardless of the language barrier I will simply not respect any fellow
> citizen that votes for our republic NOT being able to establish a revenue
> base - all fellow citizens will benefit from this law - it is like
someone
> not paying union fees and will be accepting pay rises that the union
obtains
> for all workers - in our country we call these people scabs and dogs -
of
> course I do not make the same name calling here.
>
> Vale
>
> Marcus Sentius Claudius

Perhaps though, of their dues, the citizen could choose what the dues go
toward?

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the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Lex Madness
From:	coriolanus@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 05:51:17 -0000

Salvete

--- In novaroma@--------, Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@r...> wrote:
> Ave
>
> Regardless of the language barrier I will simply not respect any
fellow
> citizen that votes for our republic NOT being able to establish a
revenue
> base - all fellow citizens will benefit from this law -

**
HOW? You all are talking about benefit and about things that we can
reach with taxation. But NO ONE said what these things are.
SO TELL ME IF YOU CAN. And don't speak about piece of land and own
state. It is nice idea but it will never be true.
**

it is like someone
> not paying union fees and will be accepting pay rises that the
union obtains
> for all workers - in our country we call these people scabs and
dogs - of
> course I do not make the same name calling here.
>
> Vale
>
> Marcus Sentius Claudius

Gaius Marcius Coriolanus
"Quid est veritas ? "

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Lex Madness
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 22:57:07 -0700

on 5/15/01 10:51 PM, coriolanus@-------- at coriolanus@-------- wrote:

> Salvete
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@r...> wrote:
>> Ave
>>
>> Regardless of the language barrier I will simply not respect any
> fellow
>> citizen that votes for our republic NOT being able to establish a
> revenue
>> base - all fellow citizens will benefit from this law -
>
> **
> HOW? You all are talking about benefit and about things that we can
> reach with taxation. But NO ONE said what these things are.
> SO TELL ME IF YOU CAN. And don't speak about piece of land and own
> state. It is nice idea but it will never be true.
> **

Ave,

I hope you are not serious, I work everyday for Nova Roma and I do so under
the intense belief that one day...even if it is not in my life time, Nova
Roma will have land..and will have soverignty. If I did not believe that
then I have wasted my time as a Magistrate and my fellow magistrates have
also waisted their time. Just becuase YOU might not think that NR might not
accomplish Her stated goals...does not mean that many of us think the exact
opposite.

I do apologize for my outburst, but I am disappointed in many of our
citizens who seem to think NR is something other than what is stated clearly
on the front page of the Nova Roma website. Do our citizens actually read
the website before the apply for citizenship? Do they view NR as a game?
Or as just an internet club? Sometimes I do not know the answers. I just
know what my answers and my believes are. NR will be a soverign nation IF
and only if the citizens take NR seriously.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Lex Madness
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 16:04:33 +1000

Salve Gaius Marcius Coriolanus

Revenue is needed to pay for such things as web hosting fees, printing and
stationary, office rentals, computer expenses, phone expense, scholarships,
trusts and foundations and donations for the pursuit of historical
preservation of sacred Roman Sites. But I am sure there are three hundred
costs that are incurred everyday by officials out of their own expense that
have never been reimbursed - how is this to be for the future HOW HOW !!!!

Simple FACT is that money is needed for such things - the future depends on
it - I think land would be great - it may not be achievable - but hey - we
can all dream.

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: coriolanus@-------- [mailto:coriolanus@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, 16 May 2001 3:51 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Lex Madness

Salvete

--- In novaroma@--------, Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@r...> wrote:
> Ave
>
> Regardless of the language barrier I will simply not respect any
fellow
> citizen that votes for our republic NOT being able to establish a
revenue
> base - all fellow citizens will benefit from this law -

**
HOW? You all are talking about benefit and about things that we can
reach with taxation. But NO ONE said what these things are.
SO TELL ME IF YOU CAN. And don't speak about piece of land and own
state. It is nice idea but it will never be true.
**

it is like someone
> not paying union fees and will be accepting pay rises that the
union obtains
> for all workers - in our country we call these people scabs and
dogs - of
> course I do not make the same name calling here.
>
> Vale
>
> Marcus Sentius Claudius

Gaius Marcius Coriolanus
"Quid est veritas ? "

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Lex Madness
From:	coriolanus@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 06:12:50 -0000

Ave

> Ave,
>
> I hope you are not serious, I work everyday for Nova Roma and I do
so under
> the intense belief that one day...even if it is not in my life
time, Nova
> Roma will have land..and will have soverignty. If I did not
believe that
> then I have wasted my time as a Magistrate and my fellow
magistrates have
> also waisted their time. Just becuase YOU might not think that NR
might not
> accomplish Her stated goals...does not mean that many of us think
the exact
> opposite.

Prepare for a day when you may find that you have really wasted your
time. There is no way to get land and establish soverign state
without military conflict. Look at the terrible things that happened
in Balcane penisula, in Africa or in thousands places over the world
in whole mankind history. Who dou you think gives you land for free?
No one.

> I do apologize for my outburst, but I am disappointed in many of our
> citizens who seem to think NR is something other than what is
stated clearly
> on the front page of the Nova Roma website.
Do our citizens actually read
> the website before the apply for citizenship? Do they view NR as a
game?
> Or as just an internet club? Sometimes I do not know the answers.
I just
> know what my answers and my believes are. NR will be a soverign
nation IF
> and only if the citizens take NR seriously.
>

Your outburst is OK, I would make the same if I see that my ideas are
not taken so seriously as I take it.
One thing is web micronation and other is real macronation. Take it
so seriously as it gets but there is still no way to success.

Gaius Marcius Coriolanus
" Quid est veritas ?"

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Lex Madness
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 23:49:22 -0700

coriolanus@-------- wrote:
>
> Ave
>
>
> > Ave,
> >
> > I hope you are not serious, I work everyday for Nova Roma and I do
> so under
> > the intense belief that one day...even if it is not in my life
> time, Nova
> > Roma will have land..and will have soverignty. If I did not
> believe that
> > then I have wasted my time as a Magistrate and my fellow
> magistrates have
> > also waisted their time. Just becuase YOU might not think that NR
> might not
> > accomplish Her stated goals...does not mean that many of us think
> the exact
> > opposite.
>
> Prepare for a day when you may find that you have really wasted your
> time. There is no way to get land and establish soverign state
> without military conflict. Look at the terrible things that happened
> in Balcane penisula, in Africa or in thousands places over the world
> in whole mankind history. Who dou you think gives you land for free?
> No one.

Sulla: I respectfully disagree....One can always purchase land...like
islands...I think that at present time that would be the most likely
avenue. Besides, I try not to use the word "never." For it can always
come back to haunt the person saying it. It might not be feasible at
this juncture....but do you know what may happen in 20 years..or even
100 years...if you do..I would be pleased to listen. <g> Til that
time..I will continue to work toward that goal.

> > I do apologize for my outburst, but I am disappointed in many of our
> > citizens who seem to think NR is something other than what is
> stated clearly
> > on the front page of the Nova Roma website.
> Do our citizens actually read
> > the website before the apply for citizenship? Do they view NR as a
> game?
> > Or as just an internet club? Sometimes I do not know the answers.
> I just
> > know what my answers and my believes are. NR will be a soverign
> nation IF
> > and only if the citizens take NR seriously.
> >
>
> Your outburst is OK, I would make the same if I see that my ideas are
> not taken so seriously as I take it.
> One thing is web micronation and other is real macronation. Take it
> so seriously as it gets but there is still no way to success.

Sulla: I still disagree, unless you have some power to see in the
future. I tend to view this first Generation of Nova Romans as those
laying the groundwork to future greatness. I will still work toward
that objective. Who really saw NR surviving from our first two citizens
to our status now? Who among us oldtimers really saw NR surviving after
our Constitutional Crisis..yet here we are. I think that if our
citizens are just as committed now as many of us were then...we might
surprise you.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

> Gaius Marcius Coriolanus
> " Quid est veritas ?"
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Lex Madness
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 17:35:58 +1000

Ave

Yes - I agree Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix - think like the Chinese - 50 to
200 years - where do we want to be then ???

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix [mailto:alexious@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, 16 May 2001 4:49 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Lex Madness

coriolanus@-------- wrote:
>
> Ave
>
>
> > Ave,
> >
> > I hope you are not serious, I work everyday for Nova Roma and I do
> so under
> > the intense belief that one day...even if it is not in my life
> time, Nova
> > Roma will have land..and will have soverignty. If I did not
> believe that
> > then I have wasted my time as a Magistrate and my fellow
> magistrates have
> > also waisted their time. Just becuase YOU might not think that NR
> might not
> > accomplish Her stated goals...does not mean that many of us think
> the exact
> > opposite.
>
> Prepare for a day when you may find that you have really wasted your
> time. There is no way to get land and establish soverign state
> without military conflict. Look at the terrible things that happened
> in Balcane penisula, in Africa or in thousands places over the world
> in whole mankind history. Who dou you think gives you land for free?
> No one.

Sulla: I respectfully disagree....One can always purchase land...like
islands...I think that at present time that would be the most likely
avenue. Besides, I try not to use the word "never." For it can always
come back to haunt the person saying it. It might not be feasible at
this juncture....but do you know what may happen in 20 years..or even
100 years...if you do..I would be pleased to listen. <g> Til that
time..I will continue to work toward that goal.

> > I do apologize for my outburst, but I am disappointed in many of our
> > citizens who seem to think NR is something other than what is
> stated clearly
> > on the front page of the Nova Roma website.
> Do our citizens actually read
> > the website before the apply for citizenship? Do they view NR as a
> game?
> > Or as just an internet club? Sometimes I do not know the answers.
> I just
> > know what my answers and my believes are. NR will be a soverign
> nation IF
> > and only if the citizens take NR seriously.
> >
>
> Your outburst is OK, I would make the same if I see that my ideas are
> not taken so seriously as I take it.
> One thing is web micronation and other is real macronation. Take it
> so seriously as it gets but there is still no way to success.

Sulla: I still disagree, unless you have some power to see in the
future. I tend to view this first Generation of Nova Romans as those
laying the groundwork to future greatness. I will still work toward
that objective. Who really saw NR surviving from our first two citizens
to our status now? Who among us oldtimers really saw NR surviving after
our Constitutional Crisis..yet here we are. I think that if our
citizens are just as committed now as many of us were then...we might
surprise you.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

> Gaius Marcius Coriolanus
> " Quid est veritas ?"
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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Subject:	[novaroma] Campaining about tax law and communication
From:	"yquere@--------"<yquere@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 09:23:31 +0100

Salvete Omnes,

It is certainly true that NR has to face many expences,
and that the need of revenue is a key issue. Despite of
this, the tax system as currently proposed raises many
negative reactions, which are according to me mainly
leaded by a lack of transparency on the justification and
explaination about these expenses.
Everyone seems to agree that the major individual problem
regarding taxes is not a problem of personnal wealth and
that most citizens would be able of paying the tax.

For instance, every macronation sets a budget annualy and
issues the accounts of the nation publically. This is
basic means of prooving the taxes paid by citizens are
effectively employed (for economic growth, social
improvments, territory investments and maintenance etc.)

In order to convice citizens that the tax law is
necessary, I suggest that the Senate issues and
communicates to every citizen a complete report of actual
expences and NR accounts, as well as a previsionnary
budget based on assumptions of tax recovery for the next
year if the law is voted.
It could include the complete list of expences engaged by
citizens for NR that have not been reimbursed over the
last year for instance.

I am an actuary in real life and am ready to help
elaborating such a report, by realizing financial
simulations and helping setting the assumptions, that we
could eventuelly base on macronational statistics if
needed.

This report could be a good vector of communication and
will concretely help in convicing people doubting in the
reality of some expenses.

Some of you are already conviced of the need of
ressources because you face daily the problem of
financing your activities among NR, but many citizens are
not as active as you and did not join NR in the view of
being leaders or organizers. They are willing to take
part, but asking them to pay taxes requires a minimum
communication to proove them this money is well employed
and profitable to them: this seams basic economics and
that is also universal.

To convice, NR should simply proove people the investment
is valuable to them. A simple financial communication
about the yearly accounts, BEFORE the proposal of the law
and the institution of a yearly report AFTER the law is
voted seams also basics accounting requirements.

Hoping to have reactions about this proposal,
Valete Bene

Ianus Querius Armoricus
Propraetor Galliae

> ---------- Initial message -----------
>
> From : Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
> To : "'novaroma@--------'"
<novaroma@-------->
> Cc :
> Date : Wed, 16 May 2001 16:04:33 +1000
> Subject : RE: [novaroma] Re: Lex Madness
>
> Salve Gaius Marcius Coriolanus
>
> Revenue is needed to pay for such things as web hosting
fees, printing and
> stationary, office rentals, computer expenses, phone
expense, scholarships,
> trusts and foundations and donations for the pursuit of
historical
> preservation of sacred Roman Sites. But I am sure
there are three hundred
> costs that are incurred everyday by officials out of
their own expense that
> have never been reimbursed - how is this to be for the
future HOW HOW !!!!
>
> Simple FACT is that money is needed for such things -
the future depends on
> it - I think land would be great - it may not be
achievable - but hey - we
> can all dream.
>
> Marcus Sentius Claudius
>

--------------
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pour toute souscription � l'un des
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Subject:	[novaroma] Lex Vedia de assidui et capiti censi
From:	"Mark Bird" <markbird@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 19:41:35 +1000

Ave

I just voted - Lex Vedia de assidui et capiti censi: YES

It is a good law and will cater for our new republic's growth for the
future.

Marcus Sentius Claudius
Legatuse Australia Austrorientalis

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Subject:	[novaroma] GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA = GAIUS LUPINIUS FESTUS
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 13:24:56 +0200

Salvete, Quirites of Nova Roma,

In our language, we have an expression that might suit what is going on here: "to play with open cards". The message below has been edited several times, reworked and rewritten. Originally, it was my intention to post it under another name -- as to the reason why I would have done that, please read below. Before I send this into hyperspace, I will apologize to the Curatrix Sermonis beforehand, as this message is likely to get me moderated and the list disrupted temporarily. But I have little choice.

The light of day, Quirites, has hit upon a case of massive corruption in Nova Roma: the citizen whom we all know as Gaius Cassius Nerva, is in fact Gaius Lupinius Festus, former citizen of Nova Roma who resigned on October 13 2000 (see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma/message/15690); his resignation became effective on October 22. Why did he not bother to tell this in public? He was readmitted under a different name, and reinstated as a citizen on March 15 2001 (see: http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=1785) . This shows us that Censor Lucius Cornelius Sulla violated his very own Edictum, and that Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus was possibly aware of this - according to this Edict, a citizen is barred from reinstatement for 6 months. In case of Nerva/Festus this period was 5 months, and thus his reinstatement was illegal.

Of course, these would be wild claims and shots in the dark withour any proof. So here it is:

a.. Festus used the same provider as Nerva.
b.. Festus wrote Roman fiction with Nova Roman characters; Nerva does the same.
c.. Festus was from the same provincia as Nerva.
d.. Festus shares roughly the same prejudices and/or opinions as Nerva (Festus and Nerva are both in favour of the name change and resignation edict, and have a hatred for leftist parties (Festus was most likely even a fascist)).
e.. Festus expressed himself in the same terminology as Nerva ("whining", "tantrum", the sarcasm, "petty").
f.. Festus was regulary absent due to his job in the US army; so is Nerva.
g.. Nerva knows of events and things from a long time ago before his official citizenship, and has - quite miraculously - the same opinions as Censor Sulla and his friends, and of course Festus, who was a friend of the Censor back then. If he is not Festus, how can he know this?
h.. Festus repeatedly, during his official absence from Nova Roma, sneaked into the mailing lists as "Deformosanus" to perform a satire on both gens Apollonia and the Amici Dignitatis (which shows his political/social inclinations again) and as "Apollo and Co" (on the Sodalitas Musarum list) to repeat roughly the same thing. Curatrix Sermonis Aeternia of the ForTheMuses list was aware of the true identity of this man, and it's well known that she was pretty thick with Festus back when he was a citizen.
It is not my intention to start a riot or a trial. It is my intention to show the citizens the reality of who you have voted into office, and what laws you are about to vote on now. People who obviously doesn't care for his own laws, except when they can use them in their own favour. Laws you're about to vote which have been and will be willfully ignored by those people for the sake of their own clique. As Censores were, in old Rome, custodians of the public morality, and were expected to set an example, I find this a despicable example of corruption, betrayal and power abuse.

You be all your own judge, but I would think twice about trusting that Censor, and the leges he is so ardently promoting. And I would think twice about trusting Nerva, who is so occupied in revealing chat handles of former enemies that he doesn't notice he's wrapped up in lies himself.

Valete;
Sextus Apollonius Draco

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA = GAIUS LUPINIUS FESTUS
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 12:13:03 -0000

Salvete,

Have bought this matter to the attention of the praetors?

If you haven't then explain your reasons.

If you have, then why are you making it public BEFORE the Preators
have a chance to act on it?

Citizens this reeks of the dirtiest of politics, the tatic of
flinging wild charges during an election, and I will add that this
tatic is commonly used by factions who realize that they are going to
lose the vote.

Praetors of Nova Roma,
I ask you to look into all sides of this. The charges that have been
raised, and the posibility that this was intentional libel against
two of our magistrates, and the allegations of vote tampering that
were made last night.

Since I have spoken out against one of these Leges, and I wish to
make this plain, I detest this type of politics, and publicaly
disassociate my self from it. However you vote, do so on YOUR opinion
of the merits of the Lex, and ignore this cheap policital trick.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Taxation, no? Some comments
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 14:23:11 +0200

Salve Scipio,

> Salve, Draco!
>
> Your comments on this issue are most welcome and refreshing -
> however,
> may I also comment on an assumption you are making?
>

There's no way to prevent that, is there ;-)? Feel free!

(snipped)

> There is an assumption here that there is a considerably large
> minority that cannot pay taxes. How is that fact being determined? I
> think we can agree that it will certainly be a difficult task to
> determine who can't pay versus who won't pay; wouldn't that line of
> reasoning also bear out that your assumption on the number of those
> who can't pay may not be a valid one?
>

That's not such a difficult task at all. First off, take all citizens from
the Middle East, South America or Central and Eastern Europe - most of those
will probably not be able to pay. For those exceptions in countries in the
North and the West, they still could be checked by the propraetor or a local
legatus.

> Another thing disturbs me about your argument as presented here -
> resigning is being used yet again as a debating tool. I do not see
> any of the proponents of this lex threatening to resign if it doesn't
> pass - why even bring up this type of veiled threat? It weakens what
> otherwise is a solid exposition of principles and thoughts.
>

I'm not threatening to resign. I think it is a reasonable alternative,
though, when something happens here which is so against your principles,
that you leave (if you cannot change it) rather than to suffer here.

> It will be very difficult indeed to build any sort of nation when
> opposition to the construction of the frameworks for the same
> consists of this type of argument. Curiously enough, this lex does not
> set taxes up - what it does is establish what level of participation
> in the Res Publica a citizen can expect given whether he/she pays or
> does not pay taxes. If any argument could be made against the lex, it
> would be that perhaps we need to construct the tax code first and then
> establish penalties/incentives for noncompliance or compliance with
> it. Even that argument is weak, for there is no real "penalty" (i.e.
> loss of citizenship or voice in our polites) attached to this lex,
> and whatever penalty may apply can be eliminated by something as
> simple as remission of taxes ( yes, there can be remission of taxes;
> luckily, we are NOT attempting to reconstruct the Principate and it's
> "sine missione" policies).
>

There is a penatly: people who don't pay can't run for an office in the
central government.

> You are right to be concerned about some exclusion of talent - but I
> will also postulate that unless we live in a perfect world, we will
> have to cope with losses and lack of maximum efficiency. We live in a
> real world, where the best solution may not always be feasible
> because of cost or implementation issues. That may sometimes force us
> to seek a compromise which causes the minimum amount of grief and
> gives us a satisfactory outcome. The Senate may well want to consider
> some of the points you have eloquently brought up when it convenes to
> craft a solution to this issue of taxation.
>

I hope so.

Vale optime!
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Lex Madness
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 14:07:18 +0200

Salve Marce Senti,

> Regardless of the language barrier I will simply not respect any fellow
> citizen that votes for our republic NOT being able to establish a revenue
> base - all fellow citizens will benefit from this law - it is like someone
> not paying union fees and will be accepting pay rises that the union
obtains
> for all workers - in our country we call these people scabs and dogs - of
> course I do not make the same name calling here.

NR is not a club, but a diverse and multicultural nations. Not everyone who
can't pay is too lazy to pay -- some people just can't. If you have ever
lived in poverty or on the edge of it, you will probably change your
viewpoint here.

Vale bene,
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA = GAIUS LUPINIUS FESTUS
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 14:29:20 +0200

Salve Luci Sicini,

>
> Have bought this matter to the attention of the praetors?
>
> If you haven't then explain your reasons.

I haven't, because it's my understanding that magistrates are immune from
such things, unless I am wrong.

> If you have, then why are you making it public BEFORE the Preators
> have a chance to act on it?
>

The recent hypocrisy of late here could be a reason. Another reason could
be: why should citizens vote for a lex that one of its own creators violates
at will?

> Citizens this reeks of the dirtiest of politics, the tatic of
> flinging wild charges during an election, and I will add that this
> tatic is commonly used by factions who realize that they are going to
> lose the vote.
>

But you haven't addressed my arguments. I could say this reeks of
defencelessness.

> Praetors of Nova Roma,
> I ask you to look into all sides of this. The charges that have been
> raised, and the posibility that this was intentional libel against
> two of our magistrates, and the allegations of vote tampering that
> were made last night.
>

Yes, allegations made by one of the "accused"!

> Since I have spoken out against one of these Leges, and I wish to
> make this plain, I detest this type of politics, and publicaly
> disassociate my self from it. However you vote, do so on YOUR opinion
> of the merits of the Lex, and ignore this cheap policital trick.
>

It is no cheap political trick. How about... what I think is true?

Vale bene!
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Lex Sanity
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 07:40:46 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Sexte Apolloni,

> NR is not a club, but a diverse and multicultural nations.

It is both of these things.

> Not everyone who can't pay is too lazy to pay -- some people
> just can't.

And that's why the proposed lex allows those who cannot pay to
remain citizens and suffer only a small penalty for not paying.

It is a fair and just law, and is necessary for our future.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Lex Madness
From:	"Mark Bird" <markbird@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 22:39:00 +1000

Draco

Don't assume that I have never lived in Poverty - I came from a Family that
new wealth and then experienced poverty at it's extremes - indeed I have
experienced poverty in it's ugliest of forms - but for people who can afford
to pay (as has been admitted here on these posts) and refuse to pay - how
say you Draco ???

Don't assume - get the facts...

Marcus Sentius Claudius
-----Original Message-----
From: S. Apollonius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, 16 May 2001 22:07
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Lex Madness

Salve Marce Senti,

> Regardless of the language barrier I will simply not respect any fellow
> citizen that votes for our republic NOT being able to establish a
revenue
> base - all fellow citizens will benefit from this law - it is like
someone
> not paying union fees and will be accepting pay rises that the union
obtains
> for all workers - in our country we call these people scabs and dogs -
of
> course I do not make the same name calling here.

NR is not a club, but a diverse and multicultural nations. Not everyone
who
can't pay is too lazy to pay -- some people just can't. If you have ever
lived in poverty or on the edge of it, you will probably change your
viewpoint here.

Vale bene,
Draco


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Lex Madness
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 12:59:38 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, coriolanus@c... wrote:
>
> Prepare for a day when you may find that you have really wasted
your
> time. There is no way to get land and establish soverign state
> without military conflict. Look at the terrible things that
happened
> in Balcane penisula, in Africa or in thousands places over the
world
> in whole mankind history. Who dou you think gives you land for free?
> No one.

Salve,
What about the history of your Provincia? 25 years ago you would
have been considered a unrealstic dreamer if you thought The Macro
Nations in Pannonia would not only be free of Soviet Domination, but
would achive this goal without military conflict.

Our dream may not sound possible today, But conditions could be as
diferent 25 years from now as they were 25 years ago.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Taxation, no? Some comments
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 09:16:49 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: S. Apollonius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 8:23 AM
>
> That's not such a difficult task at all. First off, take all citizens from
> the Middle East, South America or Central and Eastern Europe - most of
those
> will probably not be able to pay. For those exceptions in countries in the
> North and the West, they still could be checked by the propraetor or a
local
> legatus.

That's a vast generalization, and one for which you still haven't given any
actual evidence, just your personal opinion. I would imagine it's also quite
insulting to all our cives in those areas. Are you saying that everyone in
Brasilia lives below the poverty line? Is Pannonia such a squalid hellhole
that its cives would have to choose between eating and paying their NR
taxes? Ye Gods, Draco; give these places a little credit. They're not all as
impoverished as Belgium. ;-)

> I'm not threatening to resign. I think it is a reasonable alternative,
> though, when something happens here which is so against your principles,
> that you leave (if you cannot change it) rather than to suffer here.

Indeed, far more reasonable than staying behind just to cause trouble and
nay-say everything that comes along. Don't let the door hit your butt on the
way out.

> There is a penatly: people who don't pay can't run for an office in the
> central government.

Quite true. But that is hardly the only way to participate in, or contribute
to, the Republic (as I pointed out yesterday). It's a way of insuring that
those who wish to govern have some sort of financial stake-- no matter how
meager-- in our grand enterprise. I happen to think that's a good thing, and
I believe most of our cives do, too.

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA = GAIUS LUPINIUS FESTUS
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 09:23:38 -0400

Salve,

>>Before I send this into hyperspace, I will apologize to the Curatrix
Sermonis beforehand, as this message is likely to get me moderated and the
list disrupted temporarily.>>

Just to clarify, now that you are posting under your own name there is no
danger of your being moderated for the post. As I explained when you tried
to post it anonymously........the disguise was the issue, not the topic
itself.

As for the actual issue itself, my only question is in relation to this:

>>He was readmitted under a different name, and reinstated as a citizen on
March 15 2001 (see: http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=1785) . This
shows us that Censor Lucius Cornelius Sulla violated his very own Edictum,
and that Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus was possibly aware of this -
according to this Edict, a citizen is barred from reinstatement for 6
months. In case of Nerva/Festus this period was 5 months, and thus his
reinstatement was illegal.>>

Why do you assume Sulla knew that Nerva was Festus? Why do you assume that
Cinncinatus may have known? I don't know the truth of either statement, but
I would think that if Nerva has been lying to NR about who he really is, it
is entirely possible he also kept this information from the Censors.

I appreciate you bringing your suspicions forward, but I think your attempt
to cast aspersions on the laws being voted for based on a hypothetical (at
the moment) breach of confidence by the Censors is both premature and very
telling of your political motivations. It seems to me that these
issues/charges about Nerva are things you have been gathering/known for
months. Surely many of the examples and events took place a good long time
ago. The fact that you only chose to come forward with them during a vote
you have been *very* clear you hope fails on all 3 counts, and right after
Nerva alerted us to the low-class actions of Piscinius take away from *some*
of your credibility.

Please don't misunderstand me. I think the issue of whether Nerva is Festus
and whether the Censors knew is one that should be addressed. What bothers
me is your attempt at sounding noble for "coming clean" with the issue when
it seems quite clear you have sat on the facts until such time as you feel
they can somehow benefit your "side" of things. That is the only part that
bothers me.

Vale,
Priscilla vedia Serena

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA = GAIUS LUPINIUS FESTUS
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 09:25:03 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: S. Apollonius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 8:29 AM
> >
> > Have bought this matter to the attention of the praetors?
> >
> > If you haven't then explain your reasons.
>
> I haven't, because it's my understanding that magistrates are immune from
> such things, unless I am wrong.

I know of no provision in our Constitution or laws that states any
magistrate is immune from prosecution for a crime. Then again, I know of no
crime that was committed in the case you mention (or at the very least, no
penalty stipulated for violating the procedures outlined in the edict).

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA = GAIUS LUPINIUS FESTUS
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 13:33:59 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@p...>
wrote:
> Salve Luci Sicini,
>
> >
> > Have bought this matter to the attention of the praetors?
> >
> > If you haven't then explain your reasons.
>
> I haven't, because it's my understanding that magistrates are
immune from
> such things, unless I am wrong.
>
The Constitution (IV A 1) states

Censor. Two censors shall be elected by the comitia centuriata to
serve a term lasting two years, to be elected in alternate years so
as to have a one-year overlap of terms. They shall have the following
honors, powers, and obligations:
a:To issue those edicta (edicts) necessary to carry out those tasks
in which they are mandated by this Constitution and the law to engage
(such edicts being binding upon themselves as well as others);

You have made an accusation that our Censors violated this section of
the Constitution, and that IS a matter for the Praetors to look into.

The Constitution is our supreme law, and you have publicly accused
the two magistrates with the highest authority under that
Constitution of violating the law.

This accusation SHOULD have been made in a private manner, not
publicly, but it's too late for that.

That is why I ask the Praetors to look into this, either to confirm
this very serious accusation, or to clear this stain from the
Dignitas of two men who have given years of service to Nova Roma.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Campaining about tax law and communication
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 09:48:41 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: yquere@-------- [mailto:yquere@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 4:24 AM
>
> In order to convice citizens that the tax law is
> necessary, I suggest that the Senate issues and
> communicates to every citizen a complete report of actual
> expences and NR accounts, as well as a previsionnary
> budget based on assumptions of tax recovery for the next
> year if the law is voted.

Thank you very much for your kind and thoughtful remarks. However, I would
like to point out that most of the measures you suggest are already in
place, and have been for several years. I would invite you to examine the
Aerarium Saturni (http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/index.html) on
the main web site, which has all our financial documents available for the
perusal of any citizen at any time.

There, you will find not only quarterly reports from the Consular Quaestores
(who are in charge of the central Nova Roma bank accounts) but also the
annual budget for the Republic. Naturally, next year's budget is not yet
available, as it has not yet been set by the Senate (the deadline for such
is November 30th, as established in our Constitution). All open, all
available, all up-front.

Some here seem to have paranoid fantasies about just what is to be done with
money that would be collected as taxes. I've heard the most outrageous
distortions, from "building Germanicus a new pool" to "paying Sulla's rent".
If you (and I am speaking generically here, not directed at you Ianus
Querius) can find a line-item for such things in the budget, please be so
kind as to show it to me. Indeed, do you honestly think that the Senate
would authorize, or the Quaestores carry out, such payments? The amount of
nonsense I've heard regarding this issue is simply unbelievable.

Two projects for next year which I have proposed (and which will hopefully
be included in the budget for next year) are a latin composition contest for
secondary school students and the sponsorship of a Roman archaeological dig.
Naturally, there are many other projects which could be undertaken, and
doubtless will be, but these seemed a reasonable place to start and it
seemed like the majority of Citizens agreed. But we also need to work to
build up an endowment (to cover ordinary operating expenses) and our land
fund (for our eventual dream of a real, physical Forum), and all of these
things need money.

Finally, I would also like to propose that our Quaestors be bonded to handle
money. Such bonding is, in essense, an insurance policy against theft and
something that any fiscally responsible organization should undertake. I am
at this time looking into the particulars and procedures for doing so, and
if it pans out, I'll be presenting that measure as a lex later in the year.

Of course, I am sure that certain individuals will oppose this measure as
well, as it involves a background check by the bonding company; "How dare we
oppress ex-felons by not putting them in charge of our bank accounts!" But
then again, some people will just find something to complain about in
anything they see.

Next year in the Forum!

Vale

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Is there something wrong with me?
From:	Mia Soderquist <tuozine@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 09:56:37 -0400

Oh, Atia, if there is something wrong with you, I must have
the same thing wrong with me. :)

Ursula Numeria Fortunata

domusludus@-------- wrote:

>
> So I must ask: Is there something wrong with me? I voted
> yes to the taxes. It just makes sense to me.
>
> Pax vobiscum,
> Seia Silvania Atia
>

--

Mia Soderquist
http://www.papasody.com
"Who is she that looketh forth as the morning,
fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and
terrible as an army with banners?"

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Subject:	[novaroma] Communication
From:	"yquere@--------"<yquere@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 15:06:05 +0100

Salve Flavio Vedio Germanice

Thank you for your answer and all these precious
information.
I was of course aware of the presence of such information
on the NR website, but what I meant was not to stay
passive and simply expect detractors to sneak into detail
led figures which are not readable for profanes in the
arcane of accounting.

I was talking about mass communication, vulgarisation and
explaination about the budget, the expenses, projections
of the future and potential results of new ressources
generated by taxes. In other words, adopting a real
teasing method to avoid the perpetual criticism by having
clear and efficient communication approach of this
crucial matter (money issues are always controversial).

My problem was not a problem of suspicion, but I am sure
many citizens are more suspicious than I am about taxes
as you pointed out in your message.

In order to respond constructively to this false
alegations, the idea of a report, directly transmitted to
citizens and not only avalaible on the site (which is a
passive way of campaigning in my views)appears a more
direct approach to me.

The goal of all this is to convice people, not waiting for
people to get conviced by their own researches within the
acounting of NR

Vale Bene
Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio
Propraetor Galliae

> ---------- Initial message -----------
>
> From : "Flavius Vedius Germanicus"
<germanicus@-------->
> To : <novaroma@-------->
> Cc :
> Date : Wed, 16 May 2001 09:48:41 -0400
> Subject : RE: [novaroma] Campaining about tax law and
communication
>
> Salve
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: yquere@--------
[mailto:yquere@--------]
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 4:24 AM
> >
> > In order to convice citizens that the tax law is
> > necessary, I suggest that the Senate issues and
> > communicates to every citizen a complete report of
actual
> > expences and NR accounts, as well as a previsionnary
> > budget based on assumptions of tax recovery for the
next
> > year if the law is voted.
>
> Thank you very much for your kind and thoughtful
remarks. However, I would
> like to point out that most of the measures you suggest
are already in
> place, and have been for several years. I would invite
you to examine the
> Aerarium Saturni
(http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/index.html) on
> the main web site, which has all our financial
documents available for the
> perusal of any citizen at any time.
>
> There, you will find not only quarterly reports from
the Consular Quaestores
> (who are in charge of the central Nova Roma bank
accounts) but also the
> annual budget for the Republic. Naturally, next year's
budget is not yet
> available, as it has not yet been set by the Senate
(the deadline for such
> is November 30th, as established in our Constitution).
All open, all
> available, all up-front.
>
> Some here seem to have paranoid fantasies about just
what is to be done with
> money that would be collected as taxes. I've heard the
most outrageous
> distortions, from "building Germanicus a new pool"
to "paying Sulla's rent".
> If you (and I am speaking generically here, not
directed at you Ianus
> Querius) can find a line-item for such things in the
budget, please be so
> kind as to show it to me. Indeed, do you honestly think
that the Senate
> would authorize, or the Quaestores carry out, such
payments? The amount of
> nonsense I've heard regarding this issue is simply
unbelievable.
>
> Two projects for next year which I have proposed (and
which will hopefully
> be included in the budget for next year) are a latin
composition contest for
> secondary school students and the sponsorship of a
Roman archaeological dig.
> Naturally, there are many other projects which could be
undertaken, and
> doubtless will be, but these seemed a reasonable place
to start and it
> seemed like the majority of Citizens agreed. But we
also need to work to
> build up an endowment (to cover ordinary operating
expenses) and our land
> fund (for our eventual dream of a real, physical
Forum), and all of these
> things need money.
>
> Finally, I would also like to propose that our
Quaestors be bonded to handle
> money. Such bonding is, in essense, an insurance policy
against theft and
> something that any fiscally responsible organization
should undertake. I am
> at this time looking into the particulars and
procedures for doing so, and
> if it pans out, I'll be presenting that measure as a
lex later in the year.
>
> Of course, I am sure that certain individuals will
oppose this measure as
> well, as it involves a background check by the bonding
company; "How dare we
> oppress ex-felons by not putting them in charge of our
bank accounts!" But
> then again, some people will just find something to
complain about in
> anything they see.
>
> Next year in the Forum!
>
> Vale
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
> email: germanicus@--------
> AIM: Flavius Vedius
> www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Lex Madness
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 11:16:07 -0300

Mark A Bird wrote:
>
> Ave Whoever Posted this Post ,
>
> I believe that the body elected should have the power to do that - this will
> allow strategy to be put in place to enable Nova to meet it's goals and
> objectives - I think that is utterly idealistic to think that we can have a
> say to say in the day to day budget allocations of the revenue, however we
> do get this right we elect certain officials to office...
>
> Vale
>
> Marcus Sentius Claudius

Salve,

Taxes on Romans are a tradicional attribute (the only non-consultative
attribute) of the Senate, changing that would be a definitive deviation
from Roman tradition, and the Senate is not (and should not be) an
elected body (even indirectly by automatic nomination after holding
a charge).

OTOH taxes on Romans were only an exceptionnal measure in times of great
need, establishing regular taxes on Romans is also a deviation from
tradition. Rome relied on tributes from non-romans (hard but not totally
impossible) and on the evergetism of its most fortunate citizens.
We should encourage this evergetism, giving visibility to the
contributors.

For the tributes, a little idea:
Amazon.com offers a commision for web-sites that place a link to Amazon
on everything that is bought through that link.
We represent nearly 1000 customers, which if a link is placed on the
NovaRoman
page could regularly use it in order to buy their books.
This is a form of tribute paid by foreigners (Amazon) dealing with
Romans.
If I remember well it is some 1-2% on sales.

Personnaly I spent some $1000/year in books from amazon this would be of
the same order as the proposed taxes.
And I am quite sure that several of us spend (or could spend, buying all
at the
same place) much more since for me it represents only the books in
english.

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Taxation, no? Some comments
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 14:30:38 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@p...>
wrote:

>>That's not such a difficult task at all. First off, take all
citizens from the Middle East, South America or Central and Eastern
Europe - most of those will probably not be able to pay.<<

Salvete,

With all due respect, this is absurd and insulting.

FACT: NR needs revenue to continue to work toward its stated goals.

FACT: When taxes are instituted, some people will not pay for
whatever reason.

FACT: It is impossible to distinguish those who CANNOT pay from
those who WILL not.

OPINION: It's better and more fair to keep non-payers as citizens.
To expel non-payers would deprive the Republic of talent and be
especially unfair to those who can't pay.

THEREFORE: A Lex such as the proposed Lex Vedia (sorry I don't have
the full name) IS nesessary. A vote for this lex is a vote for NR; a
vote against is a vote againts NR and our stated goals.

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas
America Austrorientalis

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Lex Vedia
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 07:37:33 -0700 (PDT)

Salve, Artori Longine.

I just wanted to make a few comments on your last post.

--- rabotnik@-------- wrote:
> Petrus Artorius Longinus to my opponents and all Nova Roma Cives
> S.P.D.
> Salve!
> i know that Lex Vedia de assidui et capiti censi is not about taxes
> you said that senate is able to set taxes as high as it wish anytime
>
> want so what for was whole thouse "support our republic vote yes"
> etc. Lex Vedia de assidui et capiti censi clearly tells how to punish
>
> people who not pay taxes this is the tool of punishment and i cant
> agree for this because i thought only court can tells who deserve for
>
> punishment.

Under current (pre-lex Vedia) law, not only can the Senate fix any tax
rate it deems appropriate, but it can also expulse those unwilling or
unable to pay from Nova Roma. I see the Lex Vedia not as a punishment
for those who won't pay taxes (after all, they can still be citizens,
and they can still vote), but as a reward to those who pay, giving them
more political power than those who will not contribute.

I think this solution is both fair and consistent with ancient Roman
tradition.

> this law also breake the trust to Nova Roma our Republic.
> usually when you want to be member of web page you got to pay for,
> you know what you can get, will sombody tells me what can i get when
> i will pay in Nova Roma, more than not to be punish ? to study roman
> culture the mailing list seems to be enough and it is for free also
> you could find servers to put in Nova Roma web pages also for free
> so tell me please for what you want money from taxes.

Some of us are involved in a project that will create a completely
Novoroman virtual service, including mail list, servers for web pages,
and the such. The taxes could be eventually used to pay for these
services. You are wrong if you think these things are for free. You are
paying to Yahoo and other groups by reading their advertisement
banners. And they can stop giving their free service at any time. As
the Internet business redimensions itself to a really profitable form,
these services will loose quality and, in many cases, cease to exist.

Besides, Nova Roma wants to evolve BEYOND a virtual micronation. In
order to achieve this "jump to reality", some money will be needed.

I do agree with you, however, that the Senate should carefully control
our tax money, and that expenses should be clearly explained to
citizens. I would fully support an additional control body for the
Aerarium (not that I don't trust the Senate, I simply believe that
security is never too tight. You have to wait the best while preparing
for the worst).

> you have some vision and i respect that but maybe you should share
> with cives and tell us about your plans. maybe you should persued
> people to that. i cant blindly say yes to proposed by you laws
> somtimes i have to say no when somthing goes wrong in my oppinion and
>
> i have right to do that thereby i have to say again NO to Lex Vedia
> de assidui et capiti censi
> Vale bene!

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academia Thules.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA = GAIUS LUPINIUS FESTUS
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 08:20:49 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes.

I will not make any comments on Draco's affirmation, because I don't
know the facts, and I don't have proofs for or against it.

However, I would like to make an appeal to consider a previous
suggestion of mine: that the data from applications to citizenship
should be confronted to some means of certification, to prove that a
citizen really is who he/she claims to be.

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academia Thules.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA = GAIUS LUPINIUS FESTUS
From:	"yquere@--------"<yquere@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 16:29:54 +0100

Salve Gnaeo Salix

I remember your suggestion but its efficiency relies on
the confidence we have in our Censors' integrity.

The actual accusation about double citizenship of Nerva
goes far beyond double citizenship, and accusation has
been made against magistrates of NR. No control device
can avoid the potential problem of eventual power abuse.

Anyway, nothing has been officialy prooved yet, so I
don't want to make conjectures.

Bene Vale
Ianus Querius Armoricus
Propraetor Galliae

> ---------- Initial message -----------
>
> From : Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
> To : novaroma@--------
> Cc :
> Date : Wed, 16 May 2001 08:20:49 -0700 (PDT)
> Subject : Re: [novaroma] GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA = GAIUS
LUPINIUS FESTUS
>
> Salvete omnes.
>
> I will not make any comments on Draco's affirmation,
because I don't
> know the facts, and I don't have proofs for or against
it.
>
> However, I would like to make an appeal to consider a
previous
> suggestion of mine: that the data from applications to
citizenship
> should be confronted to some means of certification, to
prove that a
> citizen really is who he/she claims to be.
>
>
>
> =====
> Bene Valete!
> Gnaeus Salix Astur.
> Scriba ad Res Externas Academia Thules.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great
prices
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>
>
>
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>
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Language redux (was Re: Lex Madness)
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 12:27:04 -0400

Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: lsicinius@-------- [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 12:09 AM
>
> Petrus Artorius is asking us what we intend to do with his money. That
> is a right all citizens have. We have failed to keep our citizens who
> aren't fluent English speakers informed of our plans. That is a fault
> we need to seek a remedy for, rather than lightly dismissing the
> concerns of a citizen who's needs we have ignored.

I don't believe anyone's concerns are being "lightly dismissed", but the
simple fact of the matter is that the vast majority of Citizens are able to
understand English (as evidenced by the fact that the main web site is in
English). Our resources are quite limited at this stage, and I'm not sure
devoting a ton of effort to accomodate a relative handful of non-English
speakers should be at the top of our list of priorities.

I would also point out that this is a two-way street; many of the plans for
the incorporation of Bohemia into Pannonia were discussed on the Vizantia
list in Czech or Hungarian or somesuch. Too, many plans for the development
of Hispania's infrastructure are being discussed in Spanish. I don't recall
anyone insisting they were somehow being exclusivist by so doing (as we
English-speakers have been in the past).

That being said, I do believe that some avenue of communication on a
provincial (or even more local) level could be set up. Many provinces are
setting up web sites in their native languages, and we're bound to get more
and more non-English-speaking cives. I don't see any reason to translate
each and every email into 500 languages, but I do believe the contents of
the Tabularium and Aerarium Saturni could be mirrored on these provincial
sites in the local languages (since these do represent the official
documents of the Republic).

I would assume this would be a job for the provincial governments. It does,
however, present several problems:

1) Manpower. Someone with not only the necessary language skills, but also
the time and inclination to do so, would have to be found. We're talking a
LOT of work, and some of it gets quite technical. (Just look at the problems
the Sodalitas Latinium has had in translating our own website into Latin.)

2) Accuracy. What sort of check-and-balance would there be to ensure that
the local translations are accurate? Are we now looking at needing two such
individuals as I just described? For every province?

3) Practicality. It's a way-out hypothetical case, but assume for the
moment that a Consul starts issuing edicts in Manx. Are we then going to
require that each and every provincial governor find one (or two!) people
able to translate from Manx? At least when official documents start out in
English, it gives everyone a level playing field, so to speak, and a fair
shot at being able to translate them into their native tongue.

In short, I think we should keep with our present use of English as a
"lingua Franca" (pun intended), while at the same time encouraging
provincial governments to keep their Citizens informed of official actions
in their native language. A perfect solution? No. But about as good as we're
going to get at this stage.

Naturally, I would like to see Latin one day replace English as such a
lingua Franca, but we should also remember that many people join Nova Roma
with an interest in _learning_ Latin. A classic Catch-22...

Next year in the Forum!

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Campaining about tax law and communication
From:	VMoeller@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 12:30:19 EDT

In a message dated 5/16/01 8:57:17 AM Central Daylight Time,
germanicus@-------- writes:

<< Finally, I would also like to propose that our Quaestors be bonded to
handle
money. Such bonding is, in essense, an insurance policy against theft and
something that any fiscally responsible organization should undertake. I am
at this time looking into the particulars and procedures for doing so, and
if it pans out, I'll be presenting that measure as a lex later in the year.
>>

Salvete Quirites!

The idea (above) of Consul Flavius Vedius Germanicus is wise,
prudent, and helps establish greater financial controls within Nova Roma. As
a Quaestor I wish to fully endorse this proposal. The Government of Nova Roma
deserves revenue to realize our collective dreams. Her people deserve to
trust that their monetary contributions will be properly utilized and
accounted for.

Valete,

---Secunda Cornelia Valeria, Quaestrix of Nova Roma

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA = GAIUS LUPINIUS FESTUS
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 11:43:20 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Sexte Apolloni,

The identity of Nerva is a question that should be investigated by the
proper authorities, and the public forum is not the place for it.
However, I do want to clear up one issue here:

> This shows us that Censor Lucius Cornelius Sulla violated his very own
> Edictum, and that Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus was possibly
> aware of this -

Possibly, but unlikely.

As you have said, Festus resigned in October of 2000. At that time,
L. Equitius Cincinnatus was not Censor or Censor's scribe, and had no
access to the citizens' database. When a citizen is marked as having
resigned in the database, the record is no longer visible on the main
page where the Censors see the list of all citizens; they have to do
a special query to see it. In addition, the record is usually deleted
entirely once the nundinium has passed, and is therefore completely
inaccessible.

Therefore, it is very unlikely that L. Equitius ever knew any of the
private identifying information about former citizen Festus. He never
had access to Festus' real name or address, and only might have seen
the email address that appeared on the citizen's public messages (and
who can remember all the addresses of hundreds of citizens?)

Unless citizen Nerva had admitted being a former citizen during the
application process, I think we can safely assume that Censor Equitius,
who had taken office only a few months before and had never before
seen the real name or address of the departed former citizen, would
have had no way to guess the identity of the new applicant.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	[novaroma] On GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA being GAIUS LUPINIUS FESTUS
From:	QFabiusMax@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 13:27:16 EDT

In a message dated 5/16/2001 5:25:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
hendrik.meuleman@-------- writes:

<< Laws you're about to vote which have been and will be willfully ignored by
those people for the sake of their own clique. As Censores were, in old Rome,
custodians of the public morality, and were expected to set an example, I
find this a despicable example of corruption, betrayal and power abuse. You
be all your own judge, but I would think twice about trusting that Censor,
and the leges he is so ardently promoting.
<<

Salvete, Romans
Greetings from Cannes!

Sextus Apollonius Draco has claimed that Censor L. Cornelius Sulla is
corrupt, there
fore by association his edicts are likewise corrupt. The fact that
Apollonius and Cornelius have been opposed to one another since day one on
the political scene
doesn't enter into it, correct?

Don't be fooled, Romans. This is a desperate last minute attempt by a rival
faction to discredit the Leges that the State is voting on.
I, and my colleague received no information about this Nerva-Festus affair.
We saw it at the same time as you. Just like we received information about
"rattus' " attempt to disrupt our election. There was never any private
communication to myself or my colleague.
The fact we both have been busy, he with his administrative duties, myself
with film
festivals, may have encouraged this blatant display political maneuvering,
which by the way is very Roman Republic. Influential Romans would use such
stunts constantly in an attempt to sway the comitia. We have not started to
bribe people yet, perhaps that around the corner.
In closing all I can say Romans, is if you believe the proposed Leges will do
or not do Nova Roma good and I believe the Republic needs all three, then
vote for them or don't vote them for those reasons. Not because you like or
dislike the authors.
Valete

Q. Fabius Maximus
Praetor Urbanus

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Subject:	[novaroma] The Oligarchic Problem
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 19:52:14 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus M. Audenti et omnibus Civibus S.P.D.

I am glad, mi Audenti, that you have perceived that I am often
acting in the r�le of a "niggling conscience", and identifying the fact
that that is a valuable contribution to make to an organisation. If
there is some "candy-shiny thing" that I am seeking, it is a fair and
non-punitive and citizen-friendly Nova Roma, and if I can bring that
closer, people can dislike me personally to their hearts' content.

Now, about the oligarchy problem. I wish to clarify to you that as I
used it, the term "oligarch" was never intended as an insult in itself,
but only as a descriptive term. Oligarchy is rule by a relatively small
number of persons out of a larger society. Often it is additionally
associated with wealth qualifications, but that does not apply here. If
one likes the oligarchy in question and thinks it made up of the best
citizens, one may call it an Aristocracy. There is nothing to stop an
oligarch from being an honourable and good human being, just as a
monarch, aristocrat or democrat may be a good human being. A republic in
English can be a democratic one or an oligarchic / aristocratic one. (In
Latin a "res publica" is *any* state, including a monarchy.)

Now, saying that oligarchs can be good human beings, and even saying
that in some circumstances an oligarchy is the best available form of
government for a certain society is not to say that it is a desirable
situation in Nova Roma, and I do not believe it is. Too few people have
gotten a stranglehold on political initiatives and control here, and
they are using it in a way that stifles other voices, so that those
voices come to seem as irritants instead of as the initiators of
constructive reform, as is their intent. Things must be repeated ad
infinitum, because it is so hard to make the oligarchy responsive to
outsiders with different priorities and concerns within Nova Roma.

I think we can see this most clearly in the incumbents of the
highest six magistracies (2 censors, 2 consuls, 2 praetors). Of them,
five are veterans, and only one is a homo novus. In the pristine ancient
Republic it was an exceptional honour to be made a consul twice in a
lifetime, normally separated by many years. In our *very* young
respublica, both consuls have already served in that same position.

It is not that new blood was not available. There were additional
candidates not from the oligarchy. But they did not win. The first
possible reason is that the highest magistracies are elected by the
Comitia Centuriata, a body in which voting strengths are deliberately
and legally weighted in order to give more influence to those who are in
the oligarchy or inclined to favour its candidates and viewpoints in a
majority of cases. A second possible reason is that some in the
oligarchy took great pains to stop some candidates through arranging
extremely intense attacks and perhaps urging others to run primarily for
a spoiling effect. This is neither illegal nor dishonourable in itself
considering what a dirty game our politics is, although the way that
these things were implemented was not very admirable in many cases.

We have since seen discussed by the Senate ideas about
cursus-honorum style guidelines that would further limit the free flow
of new blood into the upper magistracies. We have also seen two clear
cases in which responsible citizen initiatives were shot down by the
oligarchy: once when I as a professional linguist with a special concern
for interlingusitic problems was dismissed in proposing a language
policy study committee, and again when two concerned cives founded
discussion lists to talk about possible alternatives to Yahoo Groups.
The first (as an official group) was dismissed out of hand by Vedius,
and the second was attacked by Vedia. I was also sent a private threat
by Q. Fabius Maximus, in which I was warned of elimination if I pursued
the language problem further.

Further, that the Amici Dignitatis, a normal liberal "Good
Government" and Human Rights movement such as might exist in any free
country of the world, were treated almost as a threat to the state by
the oligarchy says something about the oligarchy's outlook - namely that
it is singularly closed to criticism and resents moral, political or
social initiatives not under its control.

My involvement with this whole oligarchic problem, as you remember,
was due to one magistrate's mistreatment of one citizen due to his own
sexual prejudices or ideology. In trying to correct this one
magistrate's act, I discovered how the whole oligarchy tends to stick by
its own, even when a serious moral abuse is taking place. Had the Senate
stepped in firmly and promptly to nudge the magistrate in question back
to civilised values and standards, it would have gained quite a lot of
auctoritas in my eyes. Instead it only grudgingly did the minimum
possible after the longest and most disagreeable arguments imaginable.

This oligarchical tendency had in ancient Rome and in our
Constitution a remedy: the Plebeian Institutions. Unfortunately, we have
not yet had two agreed and energetic Tribunes to firmly establish this
alternative source of initiative and control, so the constitutional
balance is askew. Piscinus gave us an example, perhaps an even too
enthusiastic one, of how a Tribune might deal with this to get the
Plebeian Institutions up and functioning. Unfortunately his unstable
health prevented him from being able to carry out those stressful
duties, especially in the face of the oligarchic opposition that he
encountered, and the problem remains unresolved.

So, when I speak of the oligarchy here, that is the tendency to
which I am referring. It is involved too with the tendency of *many*
members of the oligarchy to be authoritarian in mindset, and perhaps to
thinking that Nova Roma is the perfect place to engage in ultra-rightest
r�le-playing because we are a "respublica" and "republic" for some
ultra-rightists in America is given special meanings as an alternative
to democracy. However, some of the oligarchy are essentially fine human
beings without those tendencies at all - and still the overconcentration
of power is not a desirable thing. The honourable thing for the
oligarchy to do would be to work sincerely to make this a more open,
free and equal society, recognising that Nova Roma belongs to all of its
citizens and that overconcentration of power in one small group (and
people who agree with them) is a strategy that will continually call
forth discontent and lend itself to abuses. There is a lot that can be
done with just a more open and less compulsive attitude towards control.
It would also help if the veterans ran for the limited number of
influential offices less often to leave them available for more homines
novi. That would also get new blood into the Senate.

Ultimately, the oligarchy cannot solve the problem alone. The People
through the Plebeian Institutions will have to take its own initiatives,
preferrably under their constitutionally elected leaders. That is the
only long-term solution. But the honourable oligarchs can at least
refrain from making that more difficult than it has to be. And we can
all recognise that the problem exists, and encourage more individual and
group citizen initiatives without being so fearful of them.

As a consular and senator, of course you are an oligarch, Marce
Audenti, but that is not an insult, and was never intended to be an
insult. Calling people names simply to be abusive is unhelpful, and in
any case I do not wish to abuse you. But the fact that Nova Roma is
functioning as an oligarchic republic instead of as a mixed republic is
not good for us. The political culture and psychology that causes this
situation should be worked on by all of us.

Valete!

Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:26:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: jmath669642reng@--------
Subject: Formosanus the Irritant

Citizen Formosanus and Citizens of Nova Roma;

I have read many words from Citizen Formosanus over the last months, and

I have agreed with very few of them, quite frankly. However, this is an

open forum, and one which works fairly well to get the ideas of a
micronation across, and I do not normally mind someone who has a
different opinion, even when that different opinion(s) are paraded
endlessly across this communication net to the boredom of those who have

heard it all before.

Repitition is a very good way to get your own way with things--children
use it with mothers at inopprotune times to get candy, toys and other
such shiny things that children are attached to. In a more adult venue
the same tactic can be used if the person producing the stream of
material has no long term goals except to get his / her own way or to
have a goal that may be hidden from the casual eye.

I have such a casual eye, as I am not poltically astute as many would
say, and I must agree. I aspire to improve the state and thereby the
sitation of the people therein, and it is my perpetually opptimistic
view, that the half-filled glass of water is in fact one-half full,
while the pessimist declares the glass of water to be one-half empty.
Not being very astute, I have not had the wit to grasp the thrust of
Citizen Formosanus and Company until just recently. My apologies for my

slow realizations.

Citizen Formosanus and his friends wish to be the "Irritant" of the
micronation or perhaps I should use a kinder title "niggling
conscience."
This realization explains many things that hitherto have been a puzzle
to me. Why would an intelligent gentleman delibertly bring down upon
his head criticism? Why??-- Because the "candy-shiny thing" he seeks is

far more important to him than the immediate invective that such actions

invokes. He knows that he. like the "child and the candy-shiny thing"
will be forgiven by those with a short memory in the long term, and
those Citizens whom both he and I know to be kind of heart and of a
gentle nature, much as the indulgent parent forgives the recalcitrent
child.

He and his company apparently aspire to be the "burr under the saddle"
of Nova Roma, the reminder that we should go slow, stand down, organize
less, talk more, be cautious, accentuate the individual, and reduce the
strength of the majority, etc.

Well, in my view, that position is needed in all organizations, and I am

content with his apparently sought after role. I will always listen to
the "other side" as it is the prudent thing to do, and I will always
search my own decisions to determine why they are so different from my
opponents, and weigh the difference carefully. Why do I do this?? Well
my friends, because I am not quick, and many of my decisions effect many

Citizens and I wish to be correct in my attempts to do the work I have
pledged to do.

However, there is one area in which I take greatet possible offense, and

that is the area of misnaming. This is NOT an oligarchy, this is a
Republic!!!! The Magistrates are elected, and from those elections and
from long service to the micronation the Senators are appointed. The
Senate undertakes to meet the needs of the people in accord with the
laws and Constitution that we have agreed to abide by and by the Leges
approved by the Citizenship. These men and women of the Senate, strive
to do thier best, and are not consumed by greed for authority, or
averice, they are in place to do honor to the micronation and consider
those ideas placed before them by the Citizens, within the pattern which

can be accomodated by people who also have outside lives to live and who

have vocations to pursue, families to raise, and other commitments to
fulfill. The Tribunes are appointed by the people and are active as
official officers on guard for the rights of the people. Some of these
elected seleted people do the job better than others, but all are
hard-working people for this Micronation, in my view, for if they were
not I would not be here.

The variety of Sodalitas and Discussion Lists are slowly establishing
the fabric and culture of this micronation.

My Consulship, those preceeding and those following are and were allowed

by the Citizens of Nova Roma and when you suggest otherwise you insult
me specifically and they in general terms. I am not now an Oligarch,
nor have I ever been, and I do not intend to be. I have followed
closely the rules of this micronation, and attended strictly to the view

that the Majority Rules, and the Minority View is allowed and protected.

No Oligarch ever allowed that.

So I say to you Citizen Formosanus, I can appreciate your views and your

belief in your undertaking and I agree to a certain degree with the
necessity for it-----BUT-----your sweeping and inaccurate
generalizations and veiled insults I can niether stomach nor approve.
Do your thing by all means, but when you object, I ask that you not
create new and inaccurate titles for that to which you cannot agree.

If I have misconstrued your words and intent, then you have my apology,
but to me at this point your words are pointed insults and I take this
way of confronting you directly with my preferences and wishes. That
you may ignore them is a real possibiliy, but as a gentleman I will
expect your response.

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

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Subject:	[novaroma] Final comments on tax
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 19:03:46 +0200

Salvete;

I'll respond to a few people in one e-mail to make things easier. This will
also be my last comment on this issue; I suppose everyone is thoroughly fed
up with it now :).

Flavius Vedius Germanicus scripsit:

> > That's not such a difficult task at all. First off, take all citizens
from
> > the Middle East, South America or Central and Eastern Europe - most of
> those
> > will probably not be able to pay. For those exceptions in countries in
the
> > North and the West, they still could be checked by the propraetor or a
> local
> > legatus.

>
> That's a vast generalization, and one for which you still haven't given
any
> actual evidence, just your personal opinion.

I've seen people saying here that many of these countries have an odd policy
regarding international money transactions (some sort of protectionism, so
it seems), and that, for example, sending 12USD from Russia would cost the
sender more than the actual amount of money he/she is sending. I'm no expert
on those countries, but I do know that the material and financial standards
lie lower than in what we tend to call the "developed west". Of course there
are richer people among them, but fair enough, I think those will contribute
(if they are active).

> I would imagine it's also quite
> insulting to all our cives in those areas. Are you saying that everyone in
> Brasilia lives below the poverty line? Is Pannonia such a squalid hellhole
> that its cives would have to choose between eating and paying their NR
> taxes? Ye Gods, Draco; give these places a little credit. They're not all
as
> impoverished as Belgium. ;-)
>

Panonnia or Brasilia aren't Sudan or Somalia, and it has never been my
intention to insult the cives from those provinciae. But most opposition
thusfar to the lex in its current form came from Eastern Europeans. That
could be an argument. For further comments, see above.

> > I'm not threatening to resign. I think it is a reasonable alternative,
> > though, when something happens here which is so against your principles,
> > that you leave (if you cannot change it) rather than to suffer here.
>
> Indeed, far more reasonable than staying behind just to cause trouble and
> nay-say everything that comes along. Don't let the door hit your butt on
the
> way out.
>

I'm not saying no to everything that comes along. Heck, I can't even vote so
how would I be able to say no? :). But seriously, I don't think I'd be
protesting so much of the time if things that came along were better in my
optique. I'm not delivering criticism for the sake of delivering it -- there
are more useful ways of spending my time, thank you very much!

> > There is a penatly: people who don't pay can't run for an office in the
> > central government.
>
> Quite true. But that is hardly the only way to participate in, or
contribute
> to, the Republic (as I pointed out yesterday). It's a way of insuring that
> those who wish to govern have some sort of financial stake-- no matter how
> meager-- in our grand enterprise. I happen to think that's a good thing,
and
> I believe most of our cives do, too.
>

Of course the central government isn't the only way for cives to
participate. But as things stand right now, most influential citizens are in
the central government. I might agree with you on this point if NR had
50,000 members, but right now it has a small 900 (of whom 2/3 are zombie
citizens).

Gaius Popilius Laneas (spelling?) scripsit:

> With all due respect, this is absurd and insulting.
>
> FACT: NR needs revenue to continue to work toward its stated goals.
>

FACT: I never contested this.

> FACT: When taxes are instituted, some people will not pay for
> whatever reason.
>

FACT: Financial hardship or difficulty is not �whatever reason�

> FACT: It is impossible to distinguish those who CANNOT pay from
> those who WILL not.
>

FACT: Provinciae have legati and a whole provincial staff, in many cases.
This could be their chance to do something more than administrational tasks,
and in some case, organizing gatherings.

> OPINION: It's better and more fair to keep non-payers as citizens.
> To expel non-payers would deprive the Republic of talent and be
> especially unfair to those who can't pay.
>
> THEREFORE: A Lex such as the proposed Lex Vedia (sorry I don't have
> the full name) IS nesessary. A vote for this lex is a vote for NR; a
> vote against is a vote againts NR and our stated goals.

I find this too black/white for my taste.

Marcus Sentius Claudius scripsit:
>
> Don't assume that I have never lived in Poverty - I came from a Family
that
> knew wealth and then experienced poverty at it's extremes - indeed I have
> experienced poverty in it's ugliest of forms - but for people who can
afford
> to pay (as has been admitted here on these posts) and refuse to pay - how
> say you Draco ???
>

I did not defend people who can pay but won't. I defended those who cannot
pay. That's quite a difference. Having experienced financial difficulties
yourself, you should know of all people that suffering from some form of
limitation in an organization you love and would like to serve in its higher
rankings, comes across excludingly, and faces you once more with the fact
that you don't have enough money.

> Don't assume - get the facts...

Don't interpret - read my words :).

Valete bene!
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA = GAIUS LUPINIUS FESTUS
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 19:58:42 +0200

Salvete;

I applied the same system as in my previous responses: all in one.

Priscilla Vedia Serena scripsit:

(snipped)

> As for the actual issue itself, my only question is in relation to this:
>
> >>He was readmitted under a different name, and reinstated as a citizen on
> March 15 2001 (see: http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=1785) . This
> shows us that Censor Lucius Cornelius Sulla violated his very own Edictum,
> and that Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus was possibly aware of this -
> according to this Edict, a citizen is barred from reinstatement for 6
> months. In case of Nerva/Festus this period was 5 months, and thus his
> reinstatement was illegal.>>
>
> Why do you assume Sulla knew that Nerva was Festus? Why do you assume
that
> Cinncinatus may have known? I don't know the truth of either statement,
but
> I would think that if Nerva has been lying to NR about who he really is,
it
> is entirely possible he also kept this information from the Censors.
>

It is. But it is also well known that Festus and Sulla were good pals. If
Formosanus was Censor, and he'd have me reinstated under a new name,
wouldn't you think it suspicious, too? Even if Festus kept the information
from the Censoriate, Sulla is a man clever enough to recognize the style of
his old friend.

> I appreciate you bringing your suspicions forward, but I think your
attempt
> to cast aspersions on the laws being voted for based on a hypothetical (at
> the moment) breach of confidence by the Censors is both premature and very
> telling of your political motivations. It seems to me that these
> issues/charges about Nerva are things you have been gathering/known for
> months. Surely many of the examples and events took place a good long
time
> ago. The fact that you only chose to come forward with them during a vote
> you have been *very* clear you hope fails on all 3 counts, and right after
> Nerva alerted us to the low-class actions of Piscinius take away from
*some*
> of your credibility.
>

It is true that I have been gathering a list of information, and I awaited
the right moment. I would have posted it later, but Nerva's rather
hypocritical (sp?) statement regarding chat lurkers/disrupters was the drop
that made the bucket run over. In the face of such an absurd thing, I was --
even though I hate to say it -- compelled to post it. One of the reasons why
I would have posted it under an alias was because I knew someone would
accuse me of being politically motivated. Whether I am or not, however,
doesn't make the case any less serious.

> Please don't misunderstand me. I think the issue of whether Nerva is
Festus
> and whether the Censors knew is one that should be addressed. What
bothers
> me is your attempt at sounding noble for "coming clean" with the issue
when
> it seems quite clear you have sat on the facts until such time as you feel
> they can somehow benefit your "side" of things. That is the only part
that
> bothers me.
>

I'm not an entirely selfless being, as much as I'd like to be, but I daresay
that I didn't write this for my own benefit. When I posted the message a
million bad possibilites crossed my mind, from libel to even expulsion. You
never know what happens. So it's not a rationally chosen shot of
opportunism, but more a risk that has to do with my moral convictions.

Flavius Vedius Germanicus scripsit:

> > > Have bought this matter to the attention of the praetors?
> > >
> > > If you haven't then explain your reasons.
> >
> > I haven't, because it's my understanding that magistrates are immune
from
> > such things, unless I am wrong.
>
> I know of no provision in our Constitution or laws that states any
> magistrate is immune from prosecution for a crime. Then again, I know of
no
> crime that was committed in the case you mention (or at the very least, no
> penalty stipulated for violating the procedures outlined in the edict).
>

Well, since the Consitution states that there's no penatly for killing a
fellow citizen, what prohibits me from doing it, legally?

Lucius Sicinius Drusus scripsit:

> The Constitution (IV A 1) states
>
> Censor. Two censors shall be elected by the comitia centuriata to
> serve a term lasting two years, to be elected in alternate years so
> as to have a one-year overlap of terms. They shall have the following
> honors, powers, and obligations:
> a:To issue those edicta (edicts) necessary to carry out those tasks
> in which they are mandated by this Constitution and the law to engage
> (such edicts being binding upon themselves as well as others);
>
> You have made an accusation that our Censors violated this section of
> the Constitution, and that IS a matter for the Praetors to look into.
>
> The Constitution is our supreme law, and you have publicly accused
> the two magistrates with the highest authority under that
> Constitution of violating the law.
>

I did not. I uttered the suspicion, and offered my reasons. I think the law
was (un)intentionally violated, yes, but that's my opinion, and not a legal
accusation.

> This accusation SHOULD have been made in a private manner, not
> publicly, but it's too late for that.
>

If it is true, it concerns all of the people, not just the magistrates. If
it is not true, too bad for me.

> That is why I ask the Praetors to look into this, either to confirm
> this very serious accusation, or to clear this stain from the
> Dignitas of two men who have given years of service to Nova Roma.
>

Valete bene,
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA being GAIUS LUPINIUS FESTUS
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 20:11:35 +0200

Salve Praetor Maxime,

(snipped)

> Sextus Apollonius Draco has claimed that Censor L. Cornelius Sulla is
> corrupt, there
> fore by association his edicts are likewise corrupt. The fact that
> Apollonius and Cornelius have been opposed to one another since day one on
> the political scene
> doesn't enter into it, correct?
>

Well, allow me to correct two things:

1. The laws he co-authored are not corrupt. They are simply not worth much
since he violates them himself.
2. I was not opposed to Censor Sulla from day one -- this regretted
oppostion became gradually so. However, insisting on my personal tension
with the man is hardly a proper response to my arguments.

> Don't be fooled, Romans. This is a desperate last minute attempt by a
rival
> faction to discredit the Leges that the State is voting on.

And is it not the truth then? Why?

> I, and my colleague received no information about this Nerva-Festus
affair.
> We saw it at the same time as you. Just like we received information
about
> "rattus' " attempt to disrupt our election. There was never any private
> communication to myself or my colleague.

I have never said it was.

> The fact we both have been busy, he with his administrative duties, myself
> with film
> festivals, may have encouraged this blatant display political maneuvering,
> which by the way is very Roman Republic. Influential Romans would use
such
> stunts constantly in an attempt to sway the comitia. We have not started
to
> bribe people yet, perhaps that around the corner.
> In closing all I can say Romans, is if you believe the proposed Leges will
do
> or not do Nova Roma good and I believe the Republic needs all three, then
> vote for them or don't vote them for those reasons. Not because you like
or
> dislike the authors.

This has nothing to do with it. I wouldn't vote for any law that is being
violated by one of its own authors, simple as that.

Vale bene,
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA = GAIUS LUPINIUS FESTUS
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 20:14:35 +0200

Salve Marce Octavi,

> Salve Sexte Apolloni,
>
> The identity of Nerva is a question that should be investigated by the
> proper authorities, and the public forum is not the place for it.
> However, I do want to clear up one issue here:
>
> > This shows us that Censor Lucius Cornelius Sulla violated his very own
> > Edictum, and that Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus was possibly
> > aware of this -
>
> Possibly, but unlikely.
>

I agree.

> As you have said, Festus resigned in October of 2000. At that time,
> L. Equitius Cincinnatus was not Censor or Censor's scribe, and had no
> access to the citizens' database. When a citizen is marked as having
> resigned in the database, the record is no longer visible on the main
> page where the Censors see the list of all citizens; they have to do
> a special query to see it. In addition, the record is usually deleted
> entirely once the nundinium has passed, and is therefore completely
> inaccessible.
>
> Therefore, it is very unlikely that L. Equitius ever knew any of the
> private identifying information about former citizen Festus. He never
> had access to Festus' real name or address, and only might have seen
> the email address that appeared on the citizen's public messages (and
> who can remember all the addresses of hundreds of citizens?)
>
> Unless citizen Nerva had admitted being a former citizen during the
> application process, I think we can safely assume that Censor Equitius,
> who had taken office only a few months before and had never before
> seen the real name or address of the departed former citizen, would
> have had no way to guess the identity of the new applicant.

You have raised a valid argument here, and I thank you for it. I have never
accused Censor Cincinnatus of anything -- I just made a small sidenote that
he might have been aware of it. As you put it, however, it is unlikely.

Vale optime,
Draco

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Subject:	[novaroma] More on the case
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 20:17:06 +0200

Salvete Quirites,

In private communication with an ex-citizen, I have received a confirmation that Nerva is Festus. I cannot quote it verbatim, but the proper authorities can contact me privately on the proof. So far for me being a scandalmonger!

Valete bene,
Draco

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Final comments on tax
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 18:43:40 -0000

Salvete,

Sorry to keep this going but some brief comments.

FACT per GPL: It is impossible to distinguish those who CANNOT pay
from those who WILL not.

FACT per SAD: Provinciae have legati and a whole provincial staff, in
many cases. This could be their chance to do something more than
administrational tasks, and in some case, organizing gatherings.

GPL: Are you saying that the provential magistrates could somehow
determine who can pay but won't from those who simply can't. How?
By what kind of clothing they wear to the "organized gathering"? By
what kind of car they drive up in?

No it's impossible without some kind of financial audit which is
unacceptable.

SAD: I find this too black/white for my taste.

GPL: It is black and white.

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas
America Austrorientalis

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: On GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA being GAIUS LUPINIUS FESTUS
From:	"Nick R. Ramos Jr." <nramos@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 18:49:17 -0000

Salve, Sextus Appollonius Draco!

With all due respect, you are making a couple of assertions here that
I think need proof before acceptance:

> 1. The laws he co-authored are not corrupt. They are simply not
worth much
> since he violates them himself.

Do you have evidentiary proof that Censor Sulla knew a priori that
this was Festus (if it is him, since the chain of reasoning you used
was about as strong as the one linking the "Rattus" chat handle to our
ex-Tribune Piscinus?)? If we can have reasonable doubts about the
identity of "rattus", can we not have identical doubts about the claim
that Nerva = Festus? We are constantly talking about how due process
is being violated by one magistrate or another - and yet here you make
the same type of mistake you so condemn in others! Has it ever entered
into your view that perhaps several other things may be true, i.e.

1.Nerva may NOT be Festus - people actually can have similar styles
and thought patterns (remember a comment made by you about the Draco
and the Formosanus being confused for one another?) If he is not
Festus, not only are you slandering him, you're slandering Sulla
gratuitiously also! You are making a very serious accusation - you are
therefore equally responsible to produce serious proof of your
accusations.

2.Let's say for the sake of argument, Nerva is Festus. If so, do you
have proof that Sulla actually knew this before approving Nerva's
application for citizenship? If not, your whole argument falls apart,
amici mei, since you have actually based your accusation against Sulla
and his leges based on this one point. If you do have proof, this was
a matter for the Praetores to address and it was your duty to bring
this forward.

3. Even if you do have proof, and it is truly a case of despicable
behavior, have you robbed your own cause of any moral validity by
descending to the same or an even lower level of conduct? If your
accusation is true, I personally will have some very serious thinking
to do about my association with my Gens and with Nova Roma in general.
If not, I will tell you with all honesty that the respect I have for
you will fall completely by the wayside.

>
> This has nothing to do with it. I wouldn't vote for any law that is
being
> violated by one of its own authors, simple as that.
>

I agree with you that if a law is being violated by those who
promulgated it, it would be absurd to vote for it. However, since you
have made an accusation here, it is your responsibility as a citizen
and as a man to bear the burden of proof. Let us keep one thing in
mind - an accusation is not proof of guilt. Solid evidence - NOT
HEARSAY or OPINIONS - is the proof of guilt. So far, we may have
differed on some issues, agreed on others; but I find equally
unacceptable that Nerva accuses Piscinus on this list rather than
taking the matter to the Praetores, and your accusations against both
him and Sulla.

My friend, I have been willing to listen to you on many issues; in
fact, my views on some things have changed and perhaps become better
because of your comments on them. This outburst has really made me
take a step back and think carefully about your motivations and ways
of doing things. To say I am disappointed would be a woeful
understatement, but it is the kindest way for me to put it. I hope
that this matter will be investigated, and the truth will come out; my
future endeavours here depend sorely on that happening.

Vale

Marius Cornelius Scipio
Aedilis Curulis
> Vale bene,
> Draco

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: More on the case
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 18:50:51 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@p...>
wrote:
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> In private communication with an ex-citizen, I have received a
confirmation that Nerva is Festus. I cannot quote it verbatim, but
the proper authorities can contact me privately on the proof. So far
for me being a scandalmonger!
>
> Valete bene,
> Draco
>
>
>

Salve,
That is the proper way to handle this matter.

I would also like to remind my fellow citizens that we are looking at
two related problems.
1) Is Nerva Festus?
2) If true, was the Censor aware of this? or to paraphrase an
expresion from America's Watergate scandal "What did the Censor know,
and when did he know it?"
Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Allegations of Sextus Apollonius
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 12:14:20 -0700

Ave,

I can see that Sextus Apollonius has cooked up these allegations
slandering me as if I did something illegal. Well, that is not the
case. I have already sent a statment to the Praetors and I will copy
that statement for the main list and for the Senate list at the same
time.

___

Ave Praetors,

First, I deny approving Gaius Cassius Nerva's application for
citizenship. My colleague Lucius Equitius approved his application.
This was after Lucius Equitius came to me and asked when he resigned.
Out of my recollection I told Lucius I believed he resigned in Late
August, Early September. I did not have the exact date. Even M.
Octavius notified the Censors that the application was Festus when he
reapplied as M. Octavius.

Also, let me state that my colleague even met G. Cassius at a coffee
shop since he took full care of the application and made sure the Pater,
M. Cassius approved the application. Censor Equitius even had him wait
after we got the Pater approval from M. Cassius....to a point where upon
agreement of all parties, Gaius Cassius was approved of citizenship on
the Ides of March. I had no other role in the processing of the
application, other than that initial question.

The issue is that the Censors do not have a database available for the
purpose of reviewing applications for those who have resigned their
citizenship. However, this will change upon a written request to
Senator M. Octavius.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA = GAIUS LUPINIUS FESTUS
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 15:42:15 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: S. Apollonius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 1:59 PM
>
> Well, since the Consitution states that there's no penatly for killing a
> fellow citizen, what prohibits me from doing it, legally?

Paragraph II.B.2. of the Constitution, which states that cives have the
"right and obligation to remain subject to the civil rights and laws of the
countries in which they reside and/or hold citizenship". It's illegal in
Belgium to kill someone, so it's illegal here, too.

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Allegations of Sextus Apollonius
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 14:46:29 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Luci Corneli,

I must make a slight correction to your report:

> Even M. Octavius notified the Censors that the application was Festus
> when he reapplied as M. Octavius. [sic]

Festus applied as "Gaius Cornelius Lupinus Silva" in February, and I did
inform you of his identity then (I did not contact Equitius). When
G. Cassius Nerva applied later, I didn't notice.

> The issue is that the Censors do not have a database available for the
> purpose of reviewing applications for those who have resigned their
> citizenship. However, this will change upon a written request to
> Senator M. Octavius.

Old records remain in the database until specifically deleted... I'll
add the ability to search for the records of resigned citizens, so that
you can view a page that lists them all.

Vale, O.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	[novaroma] [ThuleNovaRoma] Oath of Office
From:	Emilia Curia Finnica <e.curia@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 22:25:10 +0300

I, Emilia Curia Finnica (Emilia Finnlund) do hereby solemnly swear
to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best
interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Emilia Curia Finnica (Emilia Finnlund)
swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings,
and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Emilia Curia Finnica (Emilia Finnlund) swear to uphold and
defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and
swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the
State Religion.

I, Emilia Curia Finnica (Emilia Finnlund) swear to protect and
defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Emilia Curia Finnica (Emilia Finnlund) further swear to fulfill
the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Scriba Araniae
Academiae Thules to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the position of Scriba Araniae Academiae Thules
and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities
attendant thereto.
--

Emilia Curia Finnica

Scriba Araniae Academiae Thules

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Allegations of Sextus Apollonius
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 12:57:44 -0700

Marcus Octavius Germanicus wrote:
>
> Salve Luci Corneli,
>
> I must make a slight correction to your report:
>
> > Even M. Octavius notified the Censors that the application was Festus
> > when he reapplied as M. Octavius. [sic]
>
> Festus applied as "Gaius Cornelius Lupinus Silva" in February, and I did
> inform you of his identity then (I did not contact Equitius). When
> G. Cassius Nerva applied later, I didn't notice.

Ave, Yes...that is correct...I quite forgot about that...since he was
never approved and he decided he wanted to be in the Gens Cassia instead
and was able to get approval from the Consul M. Cassius Iulianus to be
admitted in his Gens. And please note, that his application to the Gens
Cornelia was never approved. Just because one applies for membership in
a Gens is not a crime...and does not mean one will be approved either.

> > The issue is that the Censors do not have a database available for the
> > purpose of reviewing applications for those who have resigned their
> > citizenship. However, this will change upon a written request to
> > Senator M. Octavius.
>
> Old records remain in the database until specifically deleted... I'll
> add the ability to search for the records of resigned citizens, so that
> you can view a page that lists them all.

Thank you for that prompt action.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

> Vale, O.
>
> --
> M. Octavius Germanicus
> Propraetor, Lacus Magni
> Curator Araneum et Senator
>
>
>
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Subject:	[novaroma] FW: [ComitiaPlebisTributa] Re: The vote
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 13:07:16 -0700

Salvete Quiritibus;

This was just received on the Plebis list. Since I
could tell from the header that a copy was also
intended to go to the main list, but the address
was incomplete I thought it helpful to forward
it here.

As for its contents; well mi Quirites you can
be the judge.

Bene valete,
Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: M. Apollonius Formosanus [mailto:bvm3@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 12:15 PM
To: novaroma@yahoogroups; ComitiaPlebis
Subject: [ComitiaPlebisTributa] Re: The vote

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Censor Sulla is now trying to convince us that his name-change
edictum is non-discrimnatory and that he is not prejudiced against gays.
To take the second assertion first, I may say that in semi-private
discussions with him, he has expressed himself in very immoderate terms
against transsexuals, and it is very hard for me to believe in the light
of the language that he used that his real feelings towards homosexuals
could be much different. I also note that almost a year and a half ago a
noted homosexual among us, Dexippus, was removed from a nomenclatural
position by Sulla for reasons that Dexippus connected with his sexual
preference. Although his eventual reason for leaving NR was shortly
after was perhaps primarily religion (as he was a very devout Roman
pagan who felt we were loosing our spiritual dimension), I have never
doubted that Sulla's perceived attitude to his homsexuality was an
important contributory factor.

As to the lack of discriminatoriness of his name-change edictum
which is now up as a bill to be voted on, it very clearly singles out
persons wishing to change the gender of their names so that they are
forced to document their sex in burdensome ways that are not inflicted
upon other groups. In the one test case we had, "burdensome" meant a
demand of about 500 pages of confidential medical and psychological
records from the Veterans Administration - for a start. That must be
considered as both discrimination and harassment.

No, I do not believe that Censor Sulla is concerned about
discrimination against gays, and I know for a fact that he is out to get
transsexuals - the present text of the legislation, bad as it is, is
already a forced compromise with his more moderate colleague. And his
colleague, a decent man, found it preferable to go into retirement from
NR afterwards, it is said by a reliable and close source, due to the
strains of working with Sulla and producing that compromise.

Sulla seems to be doing his best to convince a new "generation" of
Nova Romani that he is really a reasonable and statesmanlike figure.
However, too many of us still remember his words and deeds of the past.

Another rewriting of history was the dialogue which he had with
Australiacus in which he would have us believe that he listened to my
recommendations. In fact he is referring to the idea of following the
macronational lead in determing sex, of which I was indeed the
originator. He neglects to mention that after I made my suggestion
public I was soon privately reminded of the fact by someone that since
different jurisdictions might have different requirements, it would be
unjust for our citizens who all belong to our one jurisdiction. I then
quickly changed my position, and thinking over the matter even longer
and more deeply, came to the conclusion that a person's sexual identity
and name are an integral part of his personal identity, and that it is
essential to a person's human dignity to have his choice respected in
those matters. To that opinion which has been mine for all but a few
days of the debate Sulla has never listened.

I would be encouraged by Sulla's reasonable and moderated words if I
did not know that he has shown himself different in practice and private
conversation from what he says now publicly, and if he did not say
things patently untrue, such as that his name-change legislation does
not discriminate.

I do hope that he won his discrimination suit against the College,
by the way, as I do not like to see him discriminated against either.
Perhaps he will tell us?

Valete!

Silla dixit:

I am glad you have voiced your opinion but let me ask you, have you read
the
name change law. First off, it has nothing to do with being active in
any
gay rights movement. The edict has to do with Roman names. Not sexual
preference. My best friends are gay and I love them as a brother. I
would
never author a law that would infring on their rights. I am very
sensitive
about discrimination of any type. For those citizens who do not know,
back
in 1998, I sued my former employer California Baptist College becuase
they
fired me becuase I am Jewish. So, I take any complaint of
discrimination
very seriously, and I will fight against discrimination. This law does
not
discriminate at all.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] FW: [ComitiaPlebisTributa] Re: The vote
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 13:45:32 -0700

Ave, Citizens of Nova Roma

I will respond to this post...I typically delete M. Apollonius's posts
without ever reading them because I think they are a bunch of bunk he
uses to rile up emotions. However, I will respond to this one and only
this post from M. Apollonius because the lies he states in this post is
just so profound that I have to correct him. My comments below:

Oppius Flaccus Severus wrote:
>
> Salvete Quiritibus;
>
> This was just received on the Plebis list. Since I
> could tell from the header that a copy was also
> intended to go to the main list, but the address
> was incomplete I thought it helpful to forward
> it here.
>
> As for its contents; well mi Quirites you can
> be the judge.

Sulla: Thank you for this forwarding Oppius Flaccus, it is much
appreciated!

> Bene valete,
> Oppius
> -----Original Message-----
> From: M. Apollonius Formosanus [mailto:bvm3@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 12:15 PM
> To: novaroma@yahoogroups; ComitiaPlebis
> Subject: [ComitiaPlebisTributa] Re: The vote
>
> M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
> Censor Sulla is now trying to convince us that his name-change
> edictum is non-discrimnatory and that he is not prejudiced against gays.

Sulla: It is non discriminatory. Does the Lex prohibit homosexuals or
transgendered or even hermaphrodites from becoming citizens or holding
political office or participating in any venue of Nova Roma....the
answer is NO it does not.

> To take the second assertion first, I may say that in semi-private
> discussions with him, he has expressed himself in very immoderate terms
> against transsexuals, and it is very hard for me to believe in the light
> of the language that he used that his real feelings towards homosexuals
> could be much different.

Sulla: M. Apollonius I would really like to see such conversation from
you.

I also note that almost a year and a half ago a
> noted homosexual among us, Dexippus, was removed from a nomenclatural
> position by Sulla for reasons that Dexippus connected with his sexual
> preference.

Sulla: Dexippus, who was an Augur of Nova Roma was never my
nomenclature. Please make sure you have your facts straight. Maria
Villoreal was my nomenclature and continued to be my nomenclature right
through the name change debate.

Although his eventual reason for leaving NR was shortly
> after was perhaps primarily religion (as he was a very devout Roman
> pagan who felt we were loosing our spiritual dimension), I have never
> doubted that Sulla's perceived attitude to his homsexuality was an
> important contributory factor.

Sulla: So what you are saying is that you infer and came to your own
conclusion that Dexippius left because of the name change.

> As to the lack of discriminatoriness of his name-change edictum
> which is now up as a bill to be voted on, it very clearly singles out
> persons wishing to change the gender of their names so that they are
> forced to document their sex in burdensome ways that are not inflicted
> upon other groups.In the one test case we had, "burdensome" meant a
> demand of about 500 pages of confidential medical and psychological
> records from the Veterans Administration - for a start. That must be
> considered as both discrimination and harassment.

Sulla: I disagree, its called the burden of proof. If someone wants to
deviate from the norm. Then they should provide evidence to
substantiate their claim. A Drivers license, passport or birth
certificate would be ample evidence just as well...yet it suites M.
Apollonius to take the worst possible scenario. Yet, let me also state,
that Maria had no problem researching this information and submitting
about 100 pages worth of documentation to various members of the Senate
including the Censors when this issue was being worked on by myself and
C. Marius Merullus.

> No, I do not believe that Censor Sulla is concerned about
> discrimination against gays, and I know for a fact that he is out to get
> transsexuals - the present text of the legislation, bad as it is, is
> already a forced compromise with his more moderate colleague.

Sulla: What evidence have you of this M. Apollonius or is this more ad
hominem....in my personal opinion I think its just more ad
hominem....designed to play on the fears of our citizens. You are so
good in that area....

And his
> colleague, a decent man, found it preferable to go into retirement from
> NR afterwards, it is said by a reliable and close source, due to the
> strains of working with Sulla and producing that compromise.

Sulla: Well, I think this information is wrong as well. For your
information, my ex-colleague C. Marius Merullus called me on April 22.
I had a very pleasant phone conversation and he wanted to get
information about what was happening in NR since he is building his
house and will still be inactive for about another month. Here is a
copy of the post I sent to the Senate in regards to this update:
____

Ave,

I just got off the phone with Senator C. Marius Merullus this evening.
He just wants to let everyone know he is still around, but is still busy
building his house. He stated hopefully his house will be completed
sometime around 5-6 weeks. And after that he will be able to slowly
start returning to NR.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla
____

Now, him and I talked about a number of different issues.

<Snip>

> Another rewriting of history was the dialogue which he had with
> Australiacus in which he would have us believe that he listened to my
> recommendations. In fact he is referring to the idea of following the
> macronational lead in determing sex, of which I was indeed the
> originator.

Sulla: I just posted what was in the archives. And for that fact it
was the same post I posted when you ran unsuccessfully for Praetor.

He neglects to mention that after I made my suggestion
> public I was soon privately reminded of the fact by someone that since
> different jurisdictions might have different requirements, it would be
> unjust for our citizens who all belong to our one jurisdiction. I then
> quickly changed my position, and thinking over the matter even longer
> and more deeply, came to the conclusion that a person's sexual identity
> and name are an integral part of his personal identity, and that it is
> essential to a person's human dignity to have his choice respected in
> those matters. To that opinion which has been mine for all but a few
> days of the debate Sulla has never listened.

Sulla: So basically you waffled on the issue. That's what you are
saying. You changed your tune to suite a political agenda.

> I would be encouraged by Sulla's reasonable and moderated words if I
> did not know that he has shown himself different in practice and private
> conversation from what he says now publicly, and if he did not say
> things patently untrue, such as that his name-change legislation does
> not discriminate.

Sulla: I answered this issue above.

> I do hope that he won his discrimination suit against the College,
> by the way, as I do not like to see him discriminated against either.
> Perhaps he will tell us?

Sulla: It was settled out of court. I was very pleased with the
settlement.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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Subject:	[novaroma] Shock Politics, misdirection and obscured identities
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 14:13:31 -0700

Salvete Quiritibus;

First of all, amices et Quirites; please excuse
my lack of current comment on the proposed Leges.
My views on same are all well known and it is safe
to assume that I voted as my beliefs and interpretations
of the presented legislation dictated.

My comments will be directed at the recent accusations
flying in NR. As is typical at election time, the nature
of the accusations gets progressively more heated and
worse until the elections are finally completed. I've
seen it before, we'll see it again and for the most
part -much of it is actually very Roman; whether or not
we choose to admit it.

However, the public accusations first by Nerva and
subsequently by Draco and Formosanus regarding *alleged*
conduct of cives -both current and prior are highly
disturbing. There are magistrates to deal with these
issues and in not taking such accusations to them
first- it is destabilizing our foundations. I'll be the
first to admit that I don't always like the responses
I receive from our various magistrates; but then again
they have a job to do which is the benefit of *all,*
not just the benefit of *me* and my views. This is
something it would benefit all of us to remember.

Formosanus -your latest post about Sulla is frankly
too extreme and vulgar in its blend of innuendo, invective,
ad hominem and outright display of personal hatred to
warrant any detailed reply -as I might have done with some
of your other more thoughtful posts.

Draco: both you and Formosanus have engaged in the
worst type of dealing that I can imagine -the alleged
'mystery witness.' This is sheer replay of Saturninus
at its worst; excepting now the accusations that you
fling high and low are being 'legitimized' by 'ex citizens' and
'mystery citizens.' Well, I daresay these are same
types of "citizens" which are sending personal unsigned
e-mails and engaging in 'snipe and run' attacks on
all those that disagree with them. Same goes on
the main list. The "names" like 'Tickle' come
to mind. Indeed, troll posting at its finest. And to
think how the extreme the reaction was from your pater
and yourself when certain tasteless anonymous posts were
being made about yourselves.

What's worse, we now have cives like Marcus Sentius that
are apparently being mailed by anonymous snipers that don't
have the decency or courage to stand out in the open like
men and women -like *Romans* and engage in public dialog.
This along with the 'mystery cives' of Draco et Formosanus
is in a word -disgusting.

If you disagree with someone, do us all the kindness
and have the Romanitas to state your name clearly in so
doing. If you do not, then you are a sniper, a spammer
and subject to the full extent of the law. If you have
accusations to make, make them to the proper authorities.
If in doubt as to who the proper authorities are, mail
the Consuls or the Senate. Both addresses are clearly
published.

The appropriate officials will in turn determine the merit
(or lack thereof) of the accusations and whether or not
additional information and/or witnesses are required.

If you do have something to present in this forum, -perhaps think again
as to your reasons for presenting it. Is it *really* in
the best interests of the Respublica; or is it a cheap
shot solely designed to rally the mob to your soapbox.

Bene valete,
Oppius

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA = GAIUS LUPINIUS FESTUS
From:	"Raina Faolan" <GuruPoet@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 19:56:23 -0400

I have one question. Are you calling me a dictator? What do I have to around
here not to be labeled that atrocious word!?! Before I say anything else I
would like to remind Sextus Apollonius Draco of something. The Sodalitas
Musarum is very unique you don't have to be a citizen to post any work. When
approached by Festus I didn't see any harm in approving his membership, he
did ask me in confidence not to reveal his identity, I assumed it was
because of all the hoopla raised in the past. I didn't have a clue about the
"Deformosanus" post I really didn't. When first having read it I did chuckle
a bit I couldn't help myself, and later on apologized to the Musarum for
even laughing at such a thing. Remember that Draco? Do you remember all the
commotion your Pater raised on the Musarum about his moderation via the
mainlist those recent months ago? Do you remember few were wanting to leave
because of it? I'm assumming the "Deformosanus" was written as a Satirical
strike against it. I really don't know,but I know I am certainly not the
dictatorial type you make me out to be. Opening my mouth will have some
omnes frowning but I really don't care. I won't be labeled that horrible
word again that's for sure. But Draco if you feel I mishandled my position
as Curatrix and the Senate feels the same. I will gladly step down, no tears
of blood shedded either. There ya go, attempting to do the right thing.

Valete,
Aeternia

>From: "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: "Nova Roma" <novaroma@-------->
>Subject: [novaroma] GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA = GAIUS LUPINIUS FESTUS
>Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 13:24:56 +0200
>
>Salvete, Quirites of Nova Roma,
>
>In our language, we have an expression that might suit what is going on
>here: "to play with open cards". The message below has been edited several
>times, reworked and rewritten. Originally, it was my intention to post it
>under another name -- as to the reason why I would have done that, please
>read below. Before I send this into hyperspace, I will apologize to the
>Curatrix Sermonis beforehand, as this message is likely to get me moderated
>and the list disrupted temporarily. But I have little choice.
>
>The light of day, Quirites, has hit upon a case of massive corruption in
>Nova Roma: the citizen whom we all know as Gaius Cassius Nerva, is in fact
>Gaius Lupinius Festus, former citizen of Nova Roma who resigned on October
>13 2000 (see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma/message/15690); his
>resignation became effective on October 22. Why did he not bother to tell
>this in public? He was readmitted under a different name, and reinstated as
>a citizen on March 15 2001 (see:
>http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/civis?id=1785) . This shows us that Censor
>Lucius Cornelius Sulla violated his very own Edictum, and that Censor
>Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus was possibly aware of this - according to this
>Edict, a citizen is barred from reinstatement for 6 months. In case of
>Nerva/Festus this period was 5 months, and thus his reinstatement was
>illegal.
>
>Of course, these would be wild claims and shots in the dark withour any
>proof. So here it is:
>
> a.. Festus used the same provider as Nerva.
> b.. Festus wrote Roman fiction with Nova Roman characters; Nerva does
>the same.
> c.. Festus was from the same provincia as Nerva.
> d.. Festus shares roughly the same prejudices and/or opinions as Nerva
>(Festus and Nerva are both in favour of the name change and resignation
>edict, and have a hatred for leftist parties (Festus was most likely even a
>fascist)).
> e.. Festus expressed himself in the same terminology as Nerva
>("whining", "tantrum", the sarcasm, "petty").
> f.. Festus was regulary absent due to his job in the US army; so is
>Nerva.
> g.. Nerva knows of events and things from a long time ago before his
>official citizenship, and has - quite miraculously - the same opinions as
>Censor Sulla and his friends, and of course Festus, who was a friend of the
>Censor back then. If he is not Festus, how can he know this?
> h.. Festus repeatedly, during his official absence from Nova Roma,
>sneaked into the mailing lists as "Deformosanus" to perform a satire on
>both gens Apollonia and the Amici Dignitatis (which shows his
>political/social inclinations again) and as "Apollo and Co" (on the
>Sodalitas Musarum list) to repeat roughly the same thing. Curatrix Sermonis
>Aeternia of the ForTheMuses list was aware of the true identity of this
>man, and it's well known that she was pretty thick with Festus back when he
>was a citizen.
>It is not my intention to start a riot or a trial. It is my intention to
>show the citizens the reality of who you have voted into office, and what
>laws you are about to vote on now. People who obviously doesn't care for
>his own laws, except when they can use them in their own favour. Laws
>you're about to vote which have been and will be willfully ignored by those
>people for the sake of their own clique. As Censores were, in old Rome,
>custodians of the public morality, and were expected to set an example, I
>find this a despicable example of corruption, betrayal and power abuse.
>
>You be all your own judge, but I would think twice about trusting that
>Censor, and the leges he is so ardently promoting. And I would think twice
>about trusting Nerva, who is so occupied in revealing chat handles of
>former enemies that he doesn't notice he's wrapped up in lies himself.
>
>Valete;
>Sextus Apollonius Draco
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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