Forum Romanum


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Private Attacks from Public E-mail comments
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 10:04:28 +1000

Thank you Fabius Maximus for this notice - I was harrassed the other day
via my work e-mail and thus I am conformted by this law.

Vale

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: QFabiusMax@-------- [mailto:QFabiusMax@--------]
Sent: Friday, 18 May 2001 5:32 Am
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Private Attacks from Public E-mail comments

In a message dated 5/17/2001 9:37:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
ksterne@-------- writes:
 attacks based on posts made here on the Main List. On several
> occasions (some public, some private) posters here have complained
> that they have been harassed through Instant Messenger and e-mail
> because of things they posted here. This is unacceptable behavior,
> in my opinion. >>

Salvete,
At this point I think I should make things very clear on private attacks and

harassment through PRIVATE e-mail and IM software.

If a citizen is so attacked and they tell the harasser "NO MORE" any further

harassment is illegal under the Lex Fabia. NO means NO! I don't really
care
if the person killed your father, you are in love with them passionately, or

the person in your opinion is lower than an earthworm and is a danger to the

State. If NO is relayed you MUST stop. ALL Romans receive this protection
under the Law. This also means factions you disagree with, Magistrates who
think they are demigods, etc. ALL are PROTECTED...

This posting was for all of you new citizens who may not be aware of the Law

and its ramifications for your protection.
I hope this is now clear and we will have no more incidents.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: What Action Shall be Taken?
From:	robert woolwine <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 17 May 2001 21:26:47 -0400 (EDT)

Ave Citizens of Nova Roma

I want to comment on part of this post. The majority has been snipped for clarity.

<Snip>

> Salve,
>
> For my part I would be totally satisfied by a declaration on his honour
> of
> each of our censors, stating they didn t suspect that this readmission
> was
> against their decret.

Have you read my statement? Or did you ignore it to only read the accusations? I, Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Censor of Nova Roma took an Oath of Office when I was elected Censor of Nova Roma by the People of this Micronation. If that is not good enough for you, then no other extra oath will suffice.

Let me further add, those who believe the exaggerations and mistruths of M. Apollonius and Sextus Apollonius will still continue to believe despite the swearing of another Oath.

Or alternatively if they suspected it that they
> did all
> that was in their power (looking for the resignation e-mail, asking
> Festus
> etc.) in order to discover the truth but failed.

Once again, did you read my statement? It certainly sounds like you failed to read any email other than the ones posted by the Gens Apollonii. I respectfully request you go back and read the statement I posted. I believe it will answer most if not all of your questions.

<Snip>

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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Subject:	[novaroma] Roman Days Preparations?
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Thu, 17 May 2001 21:51:08 EDT

Salvete,

The "Roman Days" event in Bowie, MD USA is coming up in less than a month,
June 9th and 10th!

Does anyone have a list of Citizens that will be attending? Anyone know of
any preparations that still need doing?

Patricia Cassia and I will be at the event, as will a couple of friends of
ours who will be vending *great* Roman costuming and military items. This
year's event should be the best ever, and it's time for the folks who'll be
there to start getting final arrangements made!

Oh, a short note for those "thinking" of attending... don't be put off by the
recent nonsense here on the main list. Face to face gatherings are always
vastly more positive than the occasional disagreements that erupt via Email.
(No wonder everyone is so interested in getting events going in the various
Provinciae!)

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Spamming
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Thu, 17 May 2001 22:25:29 -0400 (EDT)

Citizens of Nova Roma;

My thanks to those kind people who returned my request with your
detailed explanations regarding the security of sending information by
E-Mail under another person's name. While I am very pleased at your
responses, I am considerably less secure now than I was before.

Grin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!---Brrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	[novaroma] Toward Solving List Problems - Virtue Sodalitas
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Thu, 17 May 2001 22:30:24 EDT

Salvete,

It seems that this is a good time to make another announcement regarding the
Sodalitas Virtutis, the "Virtue Sodalitas" of Nova Roma.

If you find you are tired of the personal attacks, charges and counter
charges, threats of "trials" and Gods know what else on this main list, you
are not alone.

The vast majority of Nova Romans are positive, decent people who share a love
for things Roman. This means that Nova Roma has every opportunity to be a
positive and yes, even *pleasant* place, where people can debate and work out
situations as honorable adults.

Although not yet an "official" NR Sodalitas, (a charter has not been
submitted to the Senate as yet) the Sodalitas Virtutis already has a mailing
list where thoughtful and sincere discussions on Roman Virtue, philosophy,
and incorporating Romanitas into daily life are already going on.

The goal of the Virtue Sodalitas is to to assist Citizens in building Roman
Virtue on a personal basis, as well as to help us all reclaim and maintain
"civilized" behavior in the forums of Nova Roma.

Civilized behavior is difficult to mandate. It must come *from* us, rather
than be imposed *on* us. The Sodalitas Virtutis is one way to help this
become a reality. Because of that this invitation to a new list is NOT an
invitation to unsubscribe from the main NR list, where positive participants
are always needed.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul et Pontifex Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Going to be off-list for a bit; back soon
From:	"J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 00:12:47 -0400

Salvete omnes!
I am going to be away for over a week, so to avoid getting my email-box
overloaded with mail, am unsubscibing from novaroma for the duration. Will
re-subscribe when I get back. Will remain subscribed to novabritannia list,
though.
Valete,
Fulvia

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Subject:	[novaroma] (no subject)
From:	"J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 00:13:35 -0400

unsubscribe novaroma@-------- jane sibley

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Update on Tribune Sertorius
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 01:48:42 -0400

Salve Luci Corneli: I am saddened to hear of the loss in the family of
Quintus Sertorius and will be sending him a private E-mail. My thoughts are
with him and his family this evening. Ave atque vale, .. Appius Tullius
Marcellus Cato, .. Rogator
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->; <SenatusRomanus@-------->
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 3:39 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Update on Tribune Sertorius

> Ave,
>
> I just received an update from Quintus Sertorius. His Mother in law
> passed away last nite. He just wanted me to pass this information to
> everyone.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Do you love your guns?
From:	coriolanus@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 06:20:02 -0000

Salve

It is really wonderfull hoe many things can happen in twelve hours,
and how many posts can be posted. I really can't read everything but
some things are are really interesting.

So Nerva is accused to be Festus, to use double identity. And
Censores (at least Sulla) are accused to be known about it. Maybe I
missed censor's official statement about this issue but it could be
good to see it.

And citizens don't you think that multiple citizenship could be a
serious problem ? As I see your reactions you don't.

Coriolanus

--- In novaroma@--------, justicecmo@g... wrote:
> Salve,
>
> I think your attempt at sounding like some noble defender of our
> Nation is weak at best. The fact is, you knew all of these things
> about Festus/Nerva for quite some time and YET, you chose to stay
> silent until such time as Festus/Nerva exposed the low-class antics
> of your friend Piscinius.
>
> Now, as I have said before, I am personally glad that the
> Festus=Nerva thing is out in the open. I have no problems at all
> with that having come to the light of day. I also have no problem
> with our examining the issue of re-admittance and how that was
> handled by both Censors.
>
> What I have a *definite* problem with is your attempt to mask
> opportunism in honor. Your own admission that you chose to come
> forward now due to his "attack" on Piscinius removes any doubt that
> you acted NOT as some staunch "defender of a healthy Nation" but
> simply as the angry friend of a former citizen who knew he had
> a "rock" to throw and did so.
>
> Nothing inherently *wrong* with that mind you, but certainly
nothing
> noble in it either.
>
> Vale,
> Priscilla Vedia Serena

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Do you love your guns?
From:	Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 09:00:30 +0200

Salve Ser. Apolloni Draco

Since I see myself addressed by your statetment, I feel compelled to
explain my reasons for feeling bad about some of your recent activities
on this list. Let me just quote from some of your messages and comment
on them, hopefully that might make it clearer for you why I am convinced
that your "revelations" are flaw and in the end (yet only in my humble
opinion, of course) show up as scandalmongering and a political trick.

1. subj. [novaroma] GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA = GAIUS LUPINIUS FESTUS,
05/16/2001, 01:24 PM

> Originally, it was my intention to post it under another name --

Do you realize that if you had done that, you would have revealed
yourself as following the same low ethic standards as those you are
accusing L. Cornelius Sulla Censor of. In fact, it would have been a
cowardly denouncement ... And you even considered that?

2. Re: [novaroma] GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA = GAIUS LUPINIUS FESTUS,
05/16/2001, 07:58 PM

> It is true that I have been gathering a list of information, and I awaited
> the right moment. I would have posted it later, but Nerva's rather
> hypocritical (sp?) statement regarding chat lurkers/disrupters was the drop
> that made the bucket run over. In the face of such an absurd thing, I was --
> even though I hate to say it -- compelled to post it. One of the reasons why
> I would have posted it under an alias was because I knew someone would
> accuse me of being politically motivated. Whether I am or not, however,
> doesn't make the case any less serious.

This is but plotting and scheming, political tricks, and I cannot help
feeling that you were and still are proud of that?

I am sorry, but I was literally reminded on the tale of Rumpelstiltzken
dancing around the fire singing, "It's so good that no-one knows my
name!" :o(

3. same message

> I uttered the suspicion, and offered my reasons.

This is definitely not true! In fact, you had written (subj. [novaroma]
GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA = GAIUS LUPINIUS FESTUS, 05/16/2001, 01:24 PM):

> It is not my intention to start a riot or a trial. It is my intention to show the citizens the reality of who you have voted into office, and what laws you are about to vote on now. People who obviously doesn't care for his own laws, except when they can use them in their own favour. Laws you're about to vote which have been and will be willfully ignored by those people for the sake of their own clique. As Censores were, in old Rome, custodians of the public morality, and were expected to set an example, I find this a despicable example of corruption, betrayal and power abuse.

You did not qualify anything as being your opinion, but stated your
suspicions as if they were proved true facts! And consequently, you
uttered your further conclusions as if they were proved true facts.
Thus, L. Sicinius Drusus was right, telling you (Re: [novaroma] GAIUS
CASSIUS NERVA = GAIUS LUPINIUS FESTUS, 05/16/2001, 03:33 PM):

> You have made an accusation that our Censors violated this section of
> the Constitution, and that IS a matter for the Praetors to look into.
>
> The Constitution is our supreme law, and you have publicly accused
> the two magistrates with the highest authority under that
> Constitution of violating the law.

By the way, (Re: [novaroma] On GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA being GAIUS LUPINIUS
FESTUS, 05/16/2001, 08:11 PM)

> I wouldn't vote for any law that is being
> violated by one of its own authors, simple as that.

No-one can violate a law that has not been approved which is what you
are saying here. ;o)

4. subj. [novaroma] More on the case, 05/16/2001, 08:17:

> In private communication with an ex-citizen, I have received a confirmation that Nerva is Festus. I cannot quote it verbatim, but the proper authorities can contact me privately on the proof.

Actually, it is scandalmongering to let information trickle through
without frankly revealing your sources. And in my humble opinion you
should have simply informed the proper authorities about the fact and
not the public.

So in the end, you actually wanted to prove your high moral standards by
revealing your original intentions which show very clearly low moral
standards taken into consideration ...????
The way you let all this leak out, reminds me on gutter press activities
- the worst thing about the whole affair is that it throws a very bad
light on you. And this is exactly why I feel bad about all this
regarding you. You don't want anyone to explain activities which seem
rash to others by your age - this is why you yourself have to take full
responsibility for what you have done and are still doing, which is -
yet just in my humble opinion - ill-considered and ill-advised.

As I already stated, I do not question your best intentions, but still
your well-meant activism turned out to be the opposite of good.

Bene vale

Lucilla Cornelia Cinna
Quaestrix C. Flavio Diocletiano Praetori Propraetori provinciae Germaniae
Retaria Sodalitatis Egressus
Musaea collegiorum Calliopes Cliusque Sodalitatis Musarum
Civis NovaRomana

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Do you love your guns?
From:	Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 09:05:34 +0200

Salve Coriolane,

> And citizens don't you think that multiple citizenship could be a
> serious problem ?

Of course it could. And it already has been a subject of discussion on
this list, if I remember correctly.

However, this is not the case regarding L. Cassius Nerva, because he had
resigned and re-applied for citizenship.
It is said that his application had been approved within the legal
period of six month between resignation and re-application/re-approval.

Bene vale,

Lucilla Cornelia Cinna
Quaestrix C. Flavio Diocletiano Praetori Propraetori provinciae Germaniae
Retaria Sodalitatis Egressus
Musaea collegiorum Calliopes Cliusque Sodalitatis Musarum
Civis NovaRomana

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Private Attacks from Public E-mail comments
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 17:53:17 +1000 (EST)

Salvete omenes et Marcus Sentius,

Threats?!?! I can't beleive it!! Is no-one's right of
freedom of speech sacred, where it cannot be expressed
without fear of reprisals?

This makes my blood boil!! If I found that it was
anyone in Nova Roma who did this (though I doubt it
very much, as I am sure we all have enough honor and
dignity not to stoop to such levels), I will make sure
that they pay to the full extent of the law. This sort
of behavior is unpardonable and reprehensible!

Valete bene omnes,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

Legatus Australia Medius
Sacerdos Mars Invictus

--- Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@--------> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Thank you Fabius Maximus for this notice - I was
harrassed the other day 
via my work e-mail and thus I am conformted by this
law. 
 
Vale 
 
Marcus Sentius Claudius 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: QFabiusMax@--------
[mailto:QFabiusMax@--------] 
Sent: Friday, 18 May 2001 5:32 Am 
To: novaroma@-------- 
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Private Attacks from
Public E-mail comments 
 
 
In a message dated 5/17/2001 9:37:46 AM Pacific
Daylight Time, 
ksterne@-------- writes: 

> attacks based on posts made here on the Main
List. On several 
> occasions (some public, some private) posters
here have complained 
> that they have been harassed through Instant
Messenger and e-mail 
> because of things they posted here. This
is unacceptable behavior, 
> in my opinion. >> 
 
Salvete, 
At this point I think I should make things very clear
on private attacks and 
 
harassment through PRIVATE e-mail and IM software. 
 
If a citizen is so attacked and they tell the harasser
"NO MORE" any further 
 
harassment is illegal under the Lex Fabia. NO
means NO! I don't really 
care 
if the person killed your father, you are in love with
them passionately, or 
 
the person in your opinion is lower than an earthworm
and is a danger to the 
 
State. If NO is relayed you MUST stop. ALL
Romans receive this protection 
under the Law. This also means factions you
disagree with, Magistrates who 
think they are demigods, etc. ALL are PROTECTED... 
 
This posting was for all of you new citizens who may
not be aware of the Law 
 
and its ramifications for your protection. 
I hope this is now clear and we will have no more
incidents. 
 
Valete 
Q. Fabius Maximus 
 
 
 
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href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/</a>
 
 
 
 
********************************************************************** 
This email and any files transmitted with it are
confidential and 
intended solely for the use of the individual or
entity to whom they 
are addressed. If you have received this email in
error please notify 
the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699. 
 
This footnote also confirms that this email message
has been scanned 
for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate
content. 
********************************************************************** 
</tt>

 



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Subject:	[novaroma] Invalid Voter Codes
From:	"Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 23:15:55 +1200

Salvete Quirites!

And while the excrement flies in all directions, and I note...ALL directions, the Rogatores quietly tabulate a result which may bring some semblence of Concordia to the Republic...we can only hope.

Dodging the flying muck, deftly avoiding the soiled and dishevelled togas strewn about following the outflung fists and bared breasts a discovery is made -

"YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE"

2 more Invalid Voter Codes
Tracking Numbers 6128 and 6141
Please attempt to vote again or contact the Rogators or Censors if you still have problems.

Thankyou all,

Valete
Domna Claudia Auspicata
Rogator

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Threats / Free Speech
From:	"Matthias Stappert" <3s@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 11:37:48 -0000

Caius Flavius Diocletianus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Please let me remind all that the right of free speech reaches it�s
borders if someone is insulted or harrassed by the sender. For this
we have the Lex Fabia against stalking.

I admit that in political debates words can become harsh. I admit,
that there are mainly political debates on this list. But if a
citizen or visitor, especially new citizens are harrassed, or
threatened, I cannot see that this should be protected by the right,
or let me say honour, of being a member in this list.

Please let me remind all that we want to reconstruct a true roman
republic. All citizens should be aware of the sense of Romanitas, and
the virtues connected with true Romanitas.

If a list member disagrees with another, he/she should do this in a
honourable, honest and reasonable way. Don�t forget that we are all
citizens of the same republic, and you discuss with fellow citizens
and not with enemies. Here is no room for personal vendettas.

Valete
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Praetor, Senator

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Update on Tribune Sertorius
From:	"Matthias Stappert" <3s@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 11:42:59 -0000

Salvete

also my condolences to Quintus Sertorius. May the Gods be with him
now.

Caius Flavius Docletianus

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Subject:	[novaroma] To Illustrus Quintus Sertorius
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 16:03:03 +0200

Salve Illustrus Quintus Sertorius!

I send my condolences to Illustrus Quintus Sertorius and his family! I will
include You all in my prayers.

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Update on Tribune Sertorius
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 19 May 2001 00:16:12 +1000 (EST)

Ave all,

I too would like to extend my condolences to Quintus
Sertorius in this troubled time. I know how hard it is
to loose someone close to you. I too wish the gods
blessing go with him.

Vale bene omnes,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

Legatus Australia Medius
Sacerdos Mars Invictus

--- Matthias Stappert <3s@--------> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Salvete 
 
also my condolences to Quintus Sertorius. May the Gods
be with him 
now. 
 
Caius Flavius Docletianus 
 
 
 
</tt>

 



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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: To Illustrus Quintus Sertorius
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 14:43:08 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@t...>
wrote:
> Salve Illustrus Quintus Sertorius!
>
> I send my condolences to Illustrus Quintus Sertorius and his
family! I will
> include You all in my prayers.
>
> Vale
>
> Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> Quaestor of Nova Roma
> Propraetor of Thule
> Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus
>

Salve Quinti Sertori,

May the Gods comfort you and your family.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] The Forum...
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 17:26:42 -0000

...is very quite today. The calm AFTER the storm.

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas
America Austrorientalis

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Roman Days Preparations?
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 12:05:46 -0400

Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cassius622@-------- [mailto:cassius622@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 9:51 PM
>
> The "Roman Days" event in Bowie, MD USA is coming up in less than a month,
> June 9th and 10th!
>
> Does anyone have a list of Citizens that will be attending? Anyone know of
> any preparations that still need doing?

Unfortunately, Prima Lucilla Cornelia Fortunata's illness and subsequent
incommunicado status has knocked the discounted room-rate deal (15% off the
regular price) off-track. Hopefully, she'll be back online in time to get
that going for folks who want to take advantage of it. (Anyone who does,
please let me know off-list and I'll try to take care of it.)

The hospitality suite on Saturday night is still a "go", although I am still
awaiting the disbursement of the check to pay for the room and other
expenses. That will happen at the Red Roof Inn after Merlynia's famous feast
on-site.

> Patricia Cassia and I will be at the event, as will a couple of friends of
> ours who will be vending *great* Roman costuming and military items. This
> year's event should be the best ever, and it's time for the folks who'll
be
> there to start getting final arrangements made!

I trust you'll have tons of coins!

Next year in the Forum!

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Spamming
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 18:07:49 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, jmath669642reng@w... wrote:
> Citizens of Nova Roma;
>
> My thanks to those kind people who returned my request with your
> detailed explanations regarding the security of sending information
by
> E-Mail under another person's name. While I am very pleased at your
> responses, I am considerably less secure now than I was before.
>
> Grin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!---Brrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Respectfully;
> Marcus Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
>
> http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Salve,

Your earlier post did some good. Over on the UNoffical NRmail list we
are looking into the forged E-mail problem.

PGP and GPG are two programs that are capable of generating
electronic signitures. We are exploring ways to make checking these
sigs as easy as possible. At the least we hope to be able to set up a
system that will allow verification of offical posts from Senators
and Magistrates.

These programs won't work with web-tv however, because they have to
be loaded into your computer.

I have checked the legal status of E-sigs. Under New Hampshire law
they are legal signitures, so this should also make it easier to
handle the Macro National NPC side of Nova Roma.

Seia Silvania Atia has come up with a very good comparision to Roman
tradition. It's like an digital signet ring.

Vale
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Greek messengers
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 19:01:41 +0200

Salve Praetor Maxime,

> << But hey, feel free to shoot me if you want to. In ancient Greece,
> messengers of bad news were usually executed as a compensation for the bad
> news. It seems that this habit has survived the centuries.
> >>
> Salvete Sextus Apollonius Draco, Citizens.
>
> First off you are entitled to your opinion. Second, since this list is
read
> by over 300 people who don't know history don't make inaccurate
statements.
> Oriental powers tended to execute messengers with bad news not the
Hellens.
> The phase "Don't kill the messenger!"
> which is a Greek phrase, came about because of tales of Persian satryps
> doing just this, and those rumors coming to the Ionian Islands. That's
not
> to say that Greeks did not kill messengers. If the message was highly
> sensitive, and the bearer had to memorize it, there was a chance that he
> would be strangled after delivering it, since he wasn't cleared to know
such
> info. But not because the news was bad. See "News & Society in the Greek
> Polis" (Lewis) for more on this phenomenon.

I will partially agree with you. But not fully; in a text I read over two
years ago by Herodotos (I think), he states that Athenian legates had gone
to the Oracle of Delphi to get news on the upcoming Persian invasion. Their
first oracle was a pretty bad one, and afraid of returning with the bad
news, they dressed themselves as beggers and got a "second chance" with the
oracle. Granted that their fear was not described in detail as a fear of
death, but it would be a logical option.

Vale bene,
Draco

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Subject:	[novaroma] Draco the villain, Sulla the saint
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 18:58:36 +0200

Salvete Quirites,

Over the past 24 hours I have been villified, insulted and made out to be
some sort of firestarter. Sad as it may be, this was too a high extent
predictable. Frankly enough, I don't care for the damage my reputation has
incurred by this. But I also see the "poor Sulla" reflex, pretending he has
done nothing wrong at all, and that he is the victim of an unreasonable
hatred and an evil plot at the hands of Gens Apollonia and their friends.
What plot? What friends? Present some good evidence, please.

It pains me to see that my reasons for bringing forward suspicions are for
the largest part of it blatantly ignored, while no one objects to the
accusation of I being a political plotter, an accusation that is being
offered without real proof. If there was nothing to start a fight over, I
wouldn't do it, trust me.

Let me also state the following: the people who pretend Formosanus hates
Sulla and not vice versa are quite wrong. Actually, it was the Censor who
started brutally insulting and afterwards totally ignoring and obstructing
Formosanus - not the other way around. It went even further. When I revealed
these facts during the elections of December, I was later blocked from the
office I got voted into from a motive of personal hatred, which Sulla titled
"disrespect for his office". That was one far-fetched excuse, and it was
also the thing which finally broke all good will between us. But it goes
further. For my recent questionnaire I wanted to send to the citizens of
Gallia, I requested the e-mail addresses of these citizens (with permission
of the propraetor I work for); in total, they were asked four times, to no
avail. For a similar reason, Propraetor Albinus of Britannia only requested
them once and got them pretty fast. Strange, isn't it? But they were busy.
They do sloppy record keeping.

And then people accuse me of libel. But most of them don't give arguments
that could counter mine. Not at all. It reminds me very much of a crowd of
1000 people crying to stop the mass hysteria.

Valete bene,
Sextus Apollonius Draco

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Subject:	[novaroma] Response to Lucilla Cornelia [long]
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 19:57:06 +0200

S. Apollonius Draco L. Corneliae Cinnae SPD,

> Since I see myself addressed by your statetment,

Uh, what statement are you referring to?

> I feel compelled to
> explain my reasons for feeling bad about some of your recent activities
> on this list. Let me just quote from some of your messages and comment
> on them, hopefully that might make it clearer for you why I am convinced
> that your "revelations" are flaw and in the end (yet only in my humble
> opinion, of course) show up as scandalmongering and a political trick.
>

We shall see.

(( 1 ))

> > Originally, it was my intention to post it under another name --
>
> Do you realize that if you had done that, you would have revealed
> yourself as following the same low ethic standards as those you are
> accusing L. Cornelius Sulla Censor of. In fact, it would have been a
> cowardly denouncement ... And you even considered that?
>

I did. Here is my reason: if some people are allowed to go by different
names and not reveal them publically, why shouldn't I? It was meant as
irony. Furthermore, putting my own name under it would have gotten me the
wrong associations and motivations sticked onto, which clearly happened.

(( 2 ))

> > It is true that I have been gathering a list of information, and I
awaited
> > the right moment. I would have posted it later, but Nerva's rather
> > hypocritical (sp?) statement regarding chat lurkers/disrupters was the
drop
> > that made the bucket run over. In the face of such an absurd thing, I
was --
> > even though I hate to say it -- compelled to post it. One of the reasons
why
> > I would have posted it under an alias was because I knew someone would
> > accuse me of being politically motivated. Whether I am or not, however,
> > doesn't make the case any less serious.
>
> This is but plotting and scheming, political tricks, and I cannot help
> feeling that you were and still are proud of that?
>

Proud? I don't feel pride for what I have done, nor do I feel regret.
There's a difference between plotting and trickery, and wating for the right
moment, as I have said earlier.

> I am sorry, but I was literally reminded on the tale of Rumpelstiltzken
> dancing around the fire singing, "It's so good that no-one knows my
> name!" :o(
>

We have that tale over here, too, by the way (as "Repelsteeltje"). However,
for the reasons _why_ it would have been better to remain anonymous, see
above.

(( 3 ))

> > I uttered the suspicion, and offered my reasons.
>
> This is definitely not true! In fact, you had written (subj. [novaroma]
> GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA = GAIUS LUPINIUS FESTUS, 05/16/2001, 01:24 PM):
>
> > It is not my intention to start a riot or a trial. It is my intention to
show the citizens the reality of who you have voted into office, and what
laws you are about to vote on now. People who obviously doesn't care for his
own laws, except when they can use them in their own favour. Laws you're
about to vote which have been and will be willfully ignored by those people
for the sake of their own clique. As Censores were, in old Rome, custodians
of the public morality, and were expected to set an example, I find this a
despicable example of corruption, betrayal and power abuse.
>
> You did not qualify anything as being your opinion, but stated your
> suspicions as if they were proved true facts! And consequently, you
> uttered your further conclusions as if they were proved true facts.

Yes, you are right. I did present my suspicions as truths, and could have
added a better nuance. However, for the largest part, what I have said
__was__ true. Other things have been left proofless (on both sides).

(snipped)

> By the way, (Re: [novaroma] On GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA being GAIUS LUPINIUS
> FESTUS, 05/16/2001, 08:11 PM)
>
> > I wouldn't vote for any law that is being
> > violated by one of its own authors, simple as that.
>
> No-one can violate a law that has not been approved which is what you
> are saying here. ;o)
>

I meant an edict, of course.

> 4. subj. [novaroma] More on the case, 05/16/2001, 08:17:
>
> > In private communication with an ex-citizen, I have received a
confirmation that Nerva is Festus. I cannot quote it verbatim, but the
proper authorities can contact me privately on the proof.
>
> Actually, it is scandalmongering to let information trickle through
> without frankly revealing your sources. And in my humble opinion you
> should have simply informed the proper authorities about the fact and
> not the public.
>

I did so, because some people were questioning me. If you contact me
off-list, I can let you know who my source is. Thusfar, no one has contacted
me though. Originally, it was my intention to make a CC for the Praetores as
well, but as I said earlier, I was living under the wrong assumption that
magistrates were immune from being charged. And, as Consul Vedius has
pointed out, what use would it have? The proper procedures aren't in place,
and the only thing that could be done is an impeachment procedure -- which
is too severe.

> So in the end, you actually wanted to prove your high moral standards by
> revealing your original intentions which show very clearly low moral
> standards taken into consideration ...????

Not at all. This was not, as Nerva also suggested, about proving myself
towards anyone. Of course, morality was involved, but my original reasoning
was that the best tactic might be to point out a situation through irony.

> The way you let all this leak out, reminds me on gutter press activities
> - the worst thing about the whole affair is that it throws a very bad
> light on you. And this is exactly why I feel bad about all this
> regarding you. You don't want anyone to explain activities which seem
> rash to others by your age - this is why you yourself have to take full
> responsibility for what you have done and are still doing, which is -
> yet just in my humble opinion - ill-considered and ill-advised.
>

I fear I don't really understand what you're saying here. Do you mean that
taking responsibility for my own actions is ill-considered? Personally, I
think not. I know this case has thrown a bad light on me -- but if you can
find something to charge me off, feel free to do so.

> As I already stated, I do not question your best intentions, but still
> your well-meant activism turned out to be the opposite of good.
>

Sadly enough I agree.

Vale optime,
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Do you love your guns?
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 11:27:18 -0700

coriolanus@-------- wrote:
>
> Salve
>
> It is really wonderfull hoe many things can happen in twelve hours,
> and how many posts can be posted. I really can't read everything but
> some things are are really interesting.

Yep isn't it though.

> So Nerva is accused to be Festus, to use double identity. And
> Censores (at least Sulla) are accused to be known about it. Maybe I
> missed censor's official statement about this issue but it could be
> good to see it.

No that is not correct. Nerva WAS Festus. See, Festus resigned his
citizenship back in October. My colleague approved him on March 15. He
was mistakenly approved about a month early. As stated in Nerva's post
MANY of us knew it was Festus. The problem was that we did not have a
database in hand to confirm the exact date of resignation. And, none of
us had the time to go over the archieves which now number over 23000
messages. Sextus Apollonius admitted he brought this issue up because
Nerva publically announced that one of the ex-citizens of Nova Roma who
was an ally of the Gens Apollonii was going to try to tamper with the
election. Let me quote his actual statement,

2. Re: [novaroma] GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA = GAIUS LUPINIUS FESTUS,
05/16/2001, 07:58 PM

> It is true that I have been gathering a list of information, and I awaited
> the right moment. I would have posted it later, but Nerva's rather
> hypocritical (sp?) statement regarding chat lurkers/disrupters was the drop
> that made the bucket run over.

Therefore Sextus Apollonius did this clearly out of revenge.
I do not think there was any altrustic motive behind this revelation. I
think the post by Lucilla Cornelia Cinna clearly exposed that aspect.

> And citizens don't you think that multiple citizenship could be a
> serious problem ? As I see your reactions you don't.

Of course that would be a serious problem. Yet to date, I have not seen
that issue ever come up, to my knowledge. Now, Sextus Apollonius please
do not get it in your head to try to apply for another citizenship to
try to make a point....OK? <g> Seriously, the Censors are trying to
work on trying to find a way to make certain that will never been an
issue. However, right now is not the time to make decisions when
emotions run high. I hope you agree.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Oligarchic Problem
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 20:55:35 +0200

Salve Illustrus Marcus Apollonius Formosanus!

That Nova Roma is in it self is a narrow circle of people, that is true!

We have had some very friendly contacts and You have kindly helped me with
latin words for my Edicts. But, even if I respect our relationship and
honor my obligations to You, as I am orded to serve as Your Quaestor, I
must strongly protest against your hints that Illustrus Senator, Quaestor
and Proconsul Marcus Minucius Audens would be part of some kind of
conspiracy to dominate Nova Roma.

Illustrus Senator, Quaestor and Proconsul Marcus Minucius Audens is the
most honest, straight forward and decent person I have met on this list,
even if there are many others that also are good to deal with. I think that
You are doing your own case a disservice by hinting that he is part of some
conspiracy! I would prefere if You would publicly state that this have
never been your intent!

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
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************************************************
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************************************************
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"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
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************************************************
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************************************************
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Subject:	[novaroma] um...how do I temporarily unsubscribe?
From:	"J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 15:14:27 -0400

Salvete omnes!
I tried to unsubscribe last night; am leaving crack
o'dawn tomorrow for a week and a half and don't want my
mailbox stacked high with thousands of emails when I
return. Apparently what I did didn't work. List
moderator, would you please temporarily unsubscribe me
from this list and then reinstate me on Memorial Day?
Is this possible?
Thanks!
Valete,
S. Ambrosia Fulvia (who hopes to sell lot$$$ of
fossils, neat rocks, and her homemade spice blends at
Rites of Spring!)

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] um...how do I temporarily unsubscribe?
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 14:59:07 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: J. T. Sibley [mailto:jrsibley@--------]
> Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 3:14 PM
>
> Salvete omnes!
> I tried to unsubscribe last night; am leaving crack
> o'dawn tomorrow for a week and a half and don't want my
> mailbox stacked high with thousands of emails when I
> return. Apparently what I did didn't work. List
> moderator, would you please temporarily unsubscribe me
> from this list and then reinstate me on Memorial Day?
> Is this possible?

Your best bet is to switch your delivery method from "individual emails" to
"no email". You can do that at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma/join?referer=1

That way, you are still subscribed, but just won't get tons of email sent to
your inbox (it's for people who want to read the list via the
yahoogroups.com website).

Hope that helps, and have fun on your trip!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Draco the villain, Sulla the saint
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 19:04:17 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@p...>
wrote:
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> Over the past 24 hours I have been villified, insulted and made out
to be
> some sort of firestarter. Sad as it may be, this was too a high
extent
> predictable. Frankly enough, I don't care for the damage my
reputation has
> incurred by this. But I also see the "poor Sulla" reflex,
pretending he has
> done nothing wrong at all, and that he is the victim of an
unreasonable
> hatred and an evil plot at the hands of Gens Apollonia and their
friends.
> What plot? What friends? Present some good evidence, please.
>
> It pains me to see that my reasons for bringing forward suspicions
are for
> the largest part of it blatantly ignored, while no one objects to
the
> accusation of I being a political plotter, an accusation that is
being
> offered without real proof. If there was nothing to start a fight
over, I
> wouldn't do it, trust me.
>
> Let me also state the following: the people who pretend Formosanus
hates
> Sulla and not vice versa are quite wrong. Actually, it was the
Censor who
> started brutally insulting and afterwards totally ignoring and
obstructing
> Formosanus - not the other way around. It went even further. When I
revealed
> these facts during the elections of December, I was later blocked
from the
> office I got voted into from a motive of personal hatred, which
Sulla titled
> "disrespect for his office". That was one far-fetched excuse, and
it was
> also the thing which finally broke all good will between us. But it
goes
> further. For my recent questionnaire I wanted to send to the
citizens of
> Gallia, I requested the e-mail addresses of these citizens (with
permission
> of the propraetor I work for); in total, they were asked four
times, to no
> avail. For a similar reason, Propraetor Albinus of Britannia only
requested
> them once and got them pretty fast. Strange, isn't it? But they
were busy.
> They do sloppy record keeping.
>
> And then people accuse me of libel. But most of them don't give
arguments
> that could counter mine. Not at all. It reminds me very much of a
crowd of
> 1000 people crying to stop the mass hysteria.
>
> Valete bene,
> Sextus Apollonius Draco

Salve,
Draco the villain? No it's more like Draco the shady politican. In my
Macro Nation what you did is called an October Surprise. (Elections
are allways in early November)but it could just as easily be called a
Forum surprise, since the tatic is as old as Roma Antiquita.
Sensational last minute annoucements have been used by shady
politicans for that long.

It's a harder stunt to pull off than it seems, as you are finding
out.
Rule 1. You allways hurt your reputation when you pull an October
Surprise, so make sure you do more damage to your opponent than you
do to yourself, and if possible get someone to do your dirty work for
you. (You failed on rule 1)

Rule 2. Loudly protest that you had no motive other than seeing the
truth emerge. (You messed up and admitted other motives earlier, but
otherwise you are following rule 2)

Also it's real hard to be both the gaurdian of the People's rights,
and a shady politican at the same time. It takes a real pro to pull
that one off.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Draco the villain, Sulla the saint
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 12:12:01 -0700

Ave, Citizens of Nova Roma,

"S. Apollonius Draco" wrote:
>
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> Over the past 24 hours I have been villified, insulted and made out to be
> some sort of firestarter. Sad as it may be, this was too a high extent
> predictable. Frankly enough, I don't care for the damage my reputation has
> incurred by this. But I also see the "poor Sulla" reflex, pretending he has
> done nothing wrong at all, and that he is the victim of an unreasonable
> hatred and an evil plot at the hands of Gens Apollonia and their friends.
> What plot? What friends? Present some good evidence, please.

Sextus Apollonius, did you actually read my statement. I did not
approve the application.

> It pains me to see that my reasons for bringing forward suspicions are for
> the largest part of it blatantly ignored,

That is because its not true.

while no one objects to the
> accusation of I being a political plotter, an accusation that is being
> offered without real proof.

That is because you assumed you knew the facts. And you presented your
statement to the main list without going to the Praetors. And you
lied. You deliberately assumed that I did it and played on the fact
that I am friends with Nerva.

If there was nothing to start a fight over, I
> wouldn't do it, trust me.

Sextus, of course the Apollonii are known fighters....thats fine. But,
one must know when to fight the good fight. You messed up...you assumed
your assumptions were facts. I just hope you will never become an
attorney, for the sake of yourself and any of your clients.

> Let me also state the following: the people who pretend Formosanus hates
> Sulla and not vice versa are quite wrong.

I think its mutual.

Actually, it was the Censor who
> started brutally insulting and afterwards totally ignoring and obstructing
> Formosanus - not the other way around.

How quickly you forget the labels I have gotten from your pater...lets
see: Nazi, fascist and homophobe, ....and probably other unseemly words
that I just do not remember. But I am sure that those posts just
slipped your mind right? If I recall correctly your Pater began the
name calling, not I.

It went even further. When I revealed
> these facts during the elections of December, I was later blocked from the
> office I got voted into from a motive of personal hatred, which Sulla titled
> "disrespect for his office".

Sextus Apollonius, I am only one Senator. I voted against you assuming
the office of Plebian Aedile. Are you actually saying that I controlled
the other (and majority of the Senators) to have them vote against you?

That was one far-fetched excuse, and it was
> also the thing which finally broke all good will between us.

Actually you and I did have a pleasant private communication after that
fact...but I assumed you have forgotten about that. But if you need me
to re-email those emails to you I sure will.

But it goes
> further. For my recent questionnaire I wanted to send to the citizens of
> Gallia, I requested the e-mail addresses of these citizens (with permission
> of the propraetor I work for); in total, they were asked four times, to no
> avail.

Actually, this is because of the Lex Cornelia de Privatus Rebus. You
are a Legate. You do not possess Imperium. You are not qualified to
get those email addresses. Your Governor, who I might add, was
appointed by the Senate is eligible to get those addresses.

For a similar reason, Propraetor Albinus of Britannia only requested
> them once and got them pretty fast. Strange, isn't it? But they were busy.
> They do sloppy record keeping.

No, once again, this is the Lex Cornelia de Privatus Rebus, He is a
governor. You are a Legate. You are not in the same realm as he is.
He was appointed by the Senate of Nova Roma. You were appointed by the
Governor. You do not possess Imperium.

<SNIP>

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Draco the villain, Sulla the saint
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 21:36:18 +0200

Salvete,

I'm pleased to see that the level here has become civil again. Good to know.

> > Over the past 24 hours I have been villified, insulted and made out to
be
> > some sort of firestarter. Sad as it may be, this was too a high extent
> > predictable. Frankly enough, I don't care for the damage my reputation
has
> > incurred by this. But I also see the "poor Sulla" reflex, pretending he
has
> > done nothing wrong at all, and that he is the victim of an unreasonable
> > hatred and an evil plot at the hands of Gens Apollonia and their
friends.
> > What plot? What friends? Present some good evidence, please.
>
> Sextus Apollonius, did you actually read my statement. I did not
> approve the application.
>

So you said. I will not say you are a liar, because doing so would be
utterly stupid -- I wouldn't be able to prove my claim. But of course, all
we have is your word.

(snipped)

> while no one objects to the
> > accusation of I being a political plotter, an accusation that is being
> > offered without real proof.
>
> That is because you assumed you knew the facts. And you presented your
> statement to the main list without going to the Praetors. And you
> lied. You deliberately assumed that I did it and played on the fact
> that I am friends with Nerva.
>

Would that not be a logical assumption to make? Then why all the secrecy
about Nerva? It seemed as though it was meant to cover up his early
readmission. If he had told us he was Festus from the start, then I might
not have grown so very suspicious. Admit it, if Formosanus would readmitt me
too early, and I wouldn't bother to say who I was and operate under a
different name, what would you say? Probably the very same thing.

(snipped)

>
> Actually, it was the Censor who
> > started brutally insulting and afterwards totally ignoring and
obstructing
> > Formosanus - not the other way around.
>
> How quickly you forget the labels I have gotten from your pater...lets
> see: Nazi, fascist and homophobe, ....and probably other unseemly words
> that I just do not remember. But I am sure that those posts just
> slipped your mind right? If I recall correctly your Pater began the
> name calling, not I.
>

Hmm, I think he never called you a Nazi, as far as I know. And regarding
those other terms, I think he started using them when you started tossing
invectives at him, too. All I remember is that it was a very unproductive
and confusing discussion.

> It went even further. When I revealed
> > these facts during the elections of December, I was later blocked from
the
> > office I got voted into from a motive of personal hatred, which Sulla
titled
> > "disrespect for his office".
>
> Sextus Apollonius, I am only one Senator. I voted against you assuming
> the office of Plebian Aedile. Are you actually saying that I controlled
> the other (and majority of the Senators) to have them vote against you?
>

No. But if you and your friends Iunius Iulianus and Maximus had voted in
favour of me, the outcome may have been different. People like Audens or
Cincinnatus voted against me for other reasons, which I accept and have no
problems with.

> That was one far-fetched excuse, and it was
> > also the thing which finally broke all good will between us.
>
> Actually you and I did have a pleasant private communication after that
> fact...but I assumed you have forgotten about that. But if you need me
> to re-email those emails to you I sure will.
>

I don't recall it as pleasant -- in the end we both more or less stuck to
our opinions, and that is that. I wish things would have been different
between us, but alas.

> But it goes
> > further. For my recent questionnaire I wanted to send to the citizens of
> > Gallia, I requested the e-mail addresses of these citizens (with
permission
> > of the propraetor I work for); in total, they were asked four times, to
no
> > avail.
>
> Actually, this is because of the Lex Cornelia de Privatus Rebus. You
> are a Legate. You do not possess Imperium. You are not qualified to
> get those email addresses. Your Governor, who I might add, was
> appointed by the Senate is eligible to get those addresses.
>

My propraetor, Lutecio, requested them himself as well. And afterwards, he
gave me permission to ask. You could have sent them to him instead of me,
even though I had requested them.

(snipped)

Vale bene,
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Lex Cornelia de Privatus Rebus (wasDraco the villain, Sulla the saint)
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 14:42:37 US/Central

Salve Censor Corneli

> Actually, this is because of the Lex Cornelia de Privatus Rebus.� You
> are a Legate.� You do not possess Imperium.� You are not qualified to
> get those email addresses.� Your Governor, who I might add, was
> appointed by the Senate is eligible to get those addresses.�

Actually, this is incorrect. The law states, "Only magistrates, or their
lawfully appointed assistants, of Nova Roma may receive confidential
information from the censores..." A legate is a lawfully appointed assistant
of a provincial governor. Therefore, a legate may receive this information.

If the law were written otherwise, you could not share confidential information
with your own censorial scribae.

And, for the record, LCdPR does not mention imperium at all.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Draco the villain, Sulla the saint
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 21:40:31 +0200

Salve Luci Sicini,

(snipped)

> Draco the villain? No it's more like Draco the shady politican. In my
> Macro Nation what you did is called an October Surprise. (Elections
> are allways in early November)but it could just as easily be called a
> Forum surprise, since the tatic is as old as Roma Antiquita.
> Sensational last minute annoucements have been used by shady
> politicans for that long.
>
> It's a harder stunt to pull off than it seems, as you are finding
> out.
> Rule 1. You allways hurt your reputation when you pull an October
> Surprise, so make sure you do more damage to your opponent than you
> do to yourself, and if possible get someone to do your dirty work for
> you. (You failed on rule 1)
>
> Rule 2. Loudly protest that you had no motive other than seeing the
> truth emerge. (You messed up and admitted other motives earlier, but
> otherwise you are following rule 2)
>
> Also it's real hard to be both the gaurdian of the People's rights,
> and a shady politican at the same time. It takes a real pro to pull
> that one off.

But as I've said before, let's stay "on target" here. The only thing that is
still hanging in the grey zone is whether the application was deliberately
passed too soon or not. Since that's a point that can never be proven,
confirmed or denied in an evidential way, it's little use debating it. As
for the other points: (caps don't mean shouting) THEY WERE TRUE.

Also, I'm not an American so I didn't borrow any "election technique" from
over there. I expected the damage, by the way - I wasn't counting on happy
faces when I posted the news. And am I a shady politician? Well, I'd like to
see proof of that!

Vale bene,
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Lex Cornelia de Privatus Rebus (wasDraco the villain, Sulla the saint)
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 12:47:16 -0700

labienus@-------- wrote:
>
> Salve Censor Corneli
>
> > Actually, this is because of the Lex Cornelia de Privatus Rebus. You
> > are a Legate. You do not possess Imperium. You are not qualified to
> > get those email addresses. Your Governor, who I might add, was
> > appointed by the Senate is eligible to get those addresses.
>
> Actually, this is incorrect. The law states, "Only magistrates, or their
> lawfully appointed assistants, of Nova Roma may receive confidential
> information from the censores..." A legate is a lawfully appointed assistant
> of a provincial governor. Therefore, a legate may receive this information.
>
> If the law were written otherwise, you could not share confidential information
> with your own censorial scribae.
>
> And, for the record, LCdPR does not mention imperium at all.

True, however both Censors have determined for the sake of privacy that
we will only give confidential information to Governors. I can tell you
why I have this opinion, we (magistrates and Senators) have no control
over the appointment of Legates. They are not held for public
scrutiny. I believe My colleague already explained this to Sextus
Apollonius.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Do you love your guns?
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 21:44:14 +0200

Salve,

Hmm, thought I'd correct something here.

(snipped)

> No that is not correct. Nerva WAS Festus. See, Festus resigned his
> citizenship back in October. My colleague approved him on March 15. He
> was mistakenly approved about a month early. As stated in Nerva's post
> MANY of us knew it was Festus. The problem was that we did not have a
> database in hand to confirm the exact date of resignation.

The list archives? I found the date there. Even a non-official like me
remembered it was somewhere around October, and so I bothered to check it.

> And, none of
> us had the time to go over the archieves which now number over 23000
> messages. Sextus Apollonius admitted he brought this issue up because
> Nerva publically announced that one of the ex-citizens of Nova Roma who
> was an ally of the Gens Apollonii was going to try to tamper with the
> election. Let me quote his actual statement,
>
>
> 2. Re: [novaroma] GAIUS CASSIUS NERVA = GAIUS LUPINIUS FESTUS,
> 05/16/2001, 07:58 PM
>
> > It is true that I have been gathering a list of information, and I
awaited
> > the right moment. I would have posted it later, but Nerva's rather
> > hypocritical (sp?) statement regarding chat lurkers/disrupters was the
drop
> > that made the bucket run over.
>
> Therefore Sextus Apollonius did this clearly out of revenge.
> I do not think there was any altrustic motive behind this revelation. I
> think the post by Lucilla Cornelia Cinna clearly exposed that aspect.
>

Your conclusion is wrong. I said I needed good timing. Where does it say
"revenge"? Where does it say "opportunism"? Wouldn't you be irritated by
hypocrisy? No revenge here, sorry. Timing is the key word.

> > And citizens don't you think that multiple citizenship could be a
> > serious problem ? As I see your reactions you don't.
>
> Of course that would be a serious problem. Yet to date, I have not seen
> that issue ever come up, to my knowledge. Now, Sextus Apollonius please
> do not get it in your head to try to apply for another citizenship to
> try to make a point....OK? <g>

There went my good idea.... :)

(snipped)

Vale,
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Lex Cornelia de Privatus Rebus (wasDraco the villain, Sulla the saint)
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 21:46:30 +0200

Salvete!

> > > Actually, this is because of the Lex Cornelia de Privatus Rebus. You
> > > are a Legate. You do not possess Imperium. You are not qualified to
> > > get those email addresses. Your Governor, who I might add, was
> > > appointed by the Senate is eligible to get those addresses.
> >
> > Actually, this is incorrect. The law states, "Only magistrates, or
their
> > lawfully appointed assistants, of Nova Roma may receive confidential
> > information from the censores..." A legate is a lawfully appointed
assistant
> > of a provincial governor. Therefore, a legate may receive this
information.
> >
> > If the law were written otherwise, you could not share confidential
information
> > with your own censorial scribae.
> >
> > And, for the record, LCdPR does not mention imperium at all.
>
> True, however both Censors have determined for the sake of privacy that
> we will only give confidential information to Governors. I can tell you
> why I have this opinion, we (magistrates and Senators) have no control
> over the appointment of Legates. They are not held for public
> scrutiny. I believe My colleague already explained this to Sextus
> Apollonius.
>

Ugh, actually, no, he didn't. Or I didn't get that mail.

Cheers,
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Greek messengers
From:	QFabiusMax@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 16:14:52 EDT

In a message dated 5/18/2001 11:32:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
hendrik.meuleman@-------- writes:

<< But not fully; in a text I read over two
years ago by Herodotos (I think), he states that Athenian legates had gone
to the Oracle of Delphi to get news on the upcoming Persian invasion. Their
first oracle was a pretty bad one, and afraid of returning with the bad
news, they dressed themselves as beggers and got a "second chance" with the
oracle. Granted that their fear was not described in detail as a fear of
death, but it would be a logical option. >>
Draci...
It is Herodotos. They (the envoys) were scared of ostracism, not death.
Athenians only killed people if they were a danger to the State or were
blasphemers.

Fabius

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Greek messengers
From:	Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 23:18:06 +0200

Salve Q. Fabi Maxime

> Athenians only killed people if they were a danger to the State or were
> blasphemers.

Like Socrates! ;o]

Bene vale

Lucilla Cornelia Cinna
Quaestrix C. Flavio Diocletiano Praetori Propraetori provinciae Germaniae
Retaria Sodalitatis Egressus
Musaea collegiorum Calliopes Cliusque Sodalitatis Musarum
Civis NovaRomana

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Draco the villain, Sulla the saint
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 21:26:53 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@p...> wrote:
> Salve Luci Sicini,
>
> (snipped)
>
> > Draco the villain? No it's more like Draco the shady politican. In my
> > Macro Nation what you did is called an October Surprise. (Elections
> > are allways in early November)but it could just as easily be called a
> > Forum surprise, since the tatic is as old as Roma Antiquita.
> > Sensational last minute annoucements have been used by shady
> > politicans for that long.
> >
> > It's a harder stunt to pull off than it seems, as you are finding
> > out.
> > Rule 1. You allways hurt your reputation when you pull an October
> > Surprise, so make sure you do more damage to your opponent than you
> > do to yourself, and if possible get someone to do your dirty work for
> > you. (You failed on rule 1)
> >
> > Rule 2. Loudly protest that you had no motive other than seeing the
> > truth emerge. (You messed up and admitted other motives earlier, but
> > otherwise you are following rule 2)
> >
> > Also it's real hard to be both the gaurdian of the People's rights,
> > and a shady politican at the same time. It takes a real pro to pull
> > that one off.
>
> But as I've said before, let's stay "on target" here. The only thing
that is
> still hanging in the grey zone is whether the application was
deliberately
> passed too soon or not. Since that's a point that can never be proven,
> confirmed or denied in an evidential way, it's little use debating
it. As
> for the other points: (caps don't mean shouting) THEY WERE TRUE.
>

Have I denied your truthfulness? No.
The problem isn't your facts, it's the manner you chose to present
them, and the spin you chose to attach to your facts.

> Also, I'm not an American so I didn't borrow any "election
technique" from
> over there. I expected the damage, by the way - I wasn't counting on
happy
> faces when I posted the news. And am I a shady politician? Well, I'd
like to
> see proof of that!
>
> Vale bene,
> Draco

LOL,
I mentioned that the tatic is as old as Roma, and it really dosen't
matter if you learned it from shady Roman politicans, or Shady Belgian
politicans, or shady American politicans, or if you thought it was a
wonderful new idea that you dreamed up, It's still a shady policital
trick and those who pull it are known as shady politicans. If you
dislike the term, then avoid the tatic. If you wish to be known as a
statesman rather than a politican, then act the part.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Response to Lucilla Cornelia [long]
From:	Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 23:40:41 +0200

Salve S. Apolloni Draco

You still seem not to get the point ...

All I am trying to say is that you presented yourself in a very bad
light yesterday, because you didn't keep to some very Roman rules which say
"In dubio pro reo"
i.e. as long as you don't have definite proof for the accusations you
present, keep them to yourself. You must be willing and able to present
this proof before the audience you choose for your accusations. If you
don't, you're just insinuating.
"Audiatur et altera pars"
i.e. don't present final conclusions before the person accused or his
attorney has spoken.

Besides, still it seems you don't see the point why repeatedly admitting
you were thinking of placing them here anonymously or under a different
name and insisting on the idea that it would have been more clever, if
you had done so, does not support your moral integrity (because in the
end you didn't), but makes people think "We would do it. He would cheat us."
And since you also repeatedly said you had held back this knowledge of
yours for some appropriate moment, I have to ask you, what do you call
an appropriate moment? A moment where you can most effectively damage
someone else's reputation (Nerva/Festus? Sulla?)?

In my humble opinion, it was a mistake, a bad mistake, Draco, and
unfortunately (to me) it proved L. Sulla's opinion about your being
incapable of holding the office of Aedilis Plebis, right, although I
didn't share his opinion at that time.

Please don't get me wrong - If there is truth in your accusations, the
whole matter certainly will be investigated by the Praetores (I think I
can speak for C. Flavius Diocletianus here).

I am not going to contact you privately about your witness, I prefer
"playing with open cards". And the fact that nobody contacted you about
that, should make you think things over. As I said, your recent
activities seem rash, ill-considered and ill-advised to me and I would
rather see you return to your remarkable work within the Sodalitas
Musarum, instead of risking your reputation for the purposes of people
who are no longer a part of Nova Roma - or what else are you traing to
tell me about an ex-citizen being a witness for your accusations against
the censors - particularly one of them.

Bene vale!

Lucilla Cornelia Cinna
Quaestrix C. Flavio Diocletiano Praetori Propraetori provinciae Germaniae
Retaria Sodalitatis Egressus
Musaea collegiorum Calliopes Cliusque Sodalitatis Musarum
Civis NovaRomana

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Subject:	[novaroma] Short Response to the Bitter Harvest
From:	iasonvs_serenvs@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 21:50:10 -0000

Good Afternoon fellow New Romans, and especially citizens Sextus
Appollinius Draco and Gaius Cassius Nerva...

In reviewing the lastest grand hurrah, a short (remedial) solution
came to mind. Gaius Cassius Nerva, would you be willing to spend the
remaining month of your six month probationary period offlist, and
out of contact with the electronic body of our republic, in
fulfillment of the obligations of the law?

And Draco, would this please you enough to end this (latest) sordid
chapter, and speak of this specfic incident no more?

Nerva would fulfill his obligations, demonstrating his loyalty to the
Res Publica, Draco would have his cake, but not being able to eat of
it this time.

A lesson learned? Possibly, let us not seek heads on this one - at
least, let's not seek to sever them. Draco, mi frater, I agree with
you often, but on this occasion, I ask in the interests of the
greater good, that you put down your drum. The call has been heard,
we must await the decision of Nerva and the appropriate magistrates.

We have an opportunity for all sides to demonstrate honor here.

Respectfully,

Iasonvs

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: What Action Shall be Taken?
From:	loos@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 21:44:43 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, robert woolwine <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave Citizens of Nova Roma
>
> I want to comment on part of this post. The majority has been
snipped for clarity.
>
> <Snip>
>
> > Salve,
> >
> > For my part I would be totally satisfied by a declaration on his
honour
> > of
> > each of our censors, stating they didn t suspect that this
readmission
> > was
> > against their decret.
>
> Have you read my statement? Or did you ignore it to only read the
accusations?

No I did not read your statement before taht post, not because I
ignored it but because I receive only part of the mails from yahoo.

I read it now on the website.

> I, Lucius Cornelius Sulla, Censor of Nova Roma took an Oath of
> Office when I was elected Censor of Nova Roma by the People of this
> Micronation. If that is not good enough for you, then no other
> extra oath will suffice.
>

No it is not good enough for stopping the prosecution before it
starts.

> Let me further add, those who believe the exaggerations and
> mistruths of M. Apollonius and Sextus Apollonius will still continue
> to believe despite the swearing of another Oath.
>

It is not an Oath, and most of us (me included) are sure you are an
honourable man.

> Or alternatively if they suspected it that they
> > did all
> > that was in their power (looking for the resignation e-mail,
asking
> > Festus
> > etc.) in order to discover the truth but failed.
>
> Once again, did you read my statement? It certainly sounds like you
> failed to read any email other than the ones posted by the Gens
> Apollonii. I respectfully request you go back and read the
> statement I posted. I believe it will answer most if not all of
> your questions.
>

Yes I got them, they don t exactly satisfy me, but my surprise to
seeing no answer at all directly from you was obviously just due to
the lousy service provided by Yahoo.

On the subject:
I asked for "each of the censores" to take a clear position, I did not
find anything from Lucius.
Your statements did not satisfy me because of their close semblance
with the usual dilution of responsabilities among the politicians in
charge.

You are not responsible because it was not you which readmitted
Festus, Lucius is not responsible because he asked you when he
resigned, but again it is not your responsability since you had only
a vague recollection of the date.
Did I correcly resume the intent of your statement ?

In the absence of a spontaneous declaration on honour on the
specific points I mentionned from both of the censors,
I continue of the opinion that a trial should be opened, trial
in which those exact question should be made under oath
to the censors. If not the suspicion will stay.

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Digest No 1409
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 18:19:08 -0400

Ex Domo Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Quiritibus SPD

In the matter of the application of Gaius Cassius Nerva, I approved his
application after having contacted prospective Paterfamilias Marcus Cassius,
Censor Lucius Cornelius Sulla and applicant Gaius Cassius Nerva himself.

I knew Nerva had resigned as Festus, but he wished to return and make a
fresh start. I know Nerva personally having met him at a Legio XX workshop
and having spoken to him a couple of times on the phone. I had concerns of
my own and I contacted Nerva and we agreed to meet at a local coffee shop.
There we discussed his return and the statement that he was to compose,
required by the Edictum, which he did and is posted to his file.

I did not know when he resigned so I asked Censor Sulla, who told me he was
not sure but he reckoned it was late August early September. This is also
what Nerva recalled when I asked him. I had no reason to doubt their word
for it had been many months since I had 'heard' anything from or about
"Festus".
In fact, I was going to approve Nerva's application on the 2nd of March but
Nerva himself requested to wait until the Idus Martius.

I had no reason to doubt their word for when Festus resigned he left quietly
without fanfare or recriminations.

I apologize to everyone that I did not make a more through search. I suppose
I should have assumed that the applicant was lying, and my colleague too was
lying, then gone to the archives and searched through Thousands of emails,
as if I don't have anything else to do. I'm trying very hard not to be
sarcastic, but I find myself failing that.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 12:00:24 US/Central
From: labienus@--------
Subject: Re: Re: HO HUM

Salve Gai Popilli

> Salve Sexti Apolloni (hope that's correct),

-us becomes -e in salutations (the vocative case), and -ius becomes -i.
Therefore, it should be 'Sexte Apolloni'. You were half right, which isn't
bad. It took me a while to learn as well.

> I believe the censors did not have the data to check until Marcus
> Octaviaus modified the access to such records yesterday.

That is incorrect. When he resigned, C Lupinius sent a message to this
list.
It's a relatively simple, if moderately time consuming, task to search the
archives for that message. Since the message has a date-time stamp
attached,
it provides exactly the sort of record required. How else would S
Apollonius
have determined that Nerva had been readmitted prematurely?

Vale
T Labienus Fortunatus

L EQUITIUS: The problem with this is that Draco was assuming that
Festus=Nerva.
Censores would have to search through 22000+ emails for to check for every
applictant, whose birth name is almost never listed! That is the key. He
made an assumption and went looking to prove it, which he was only able to
do by the confimation of Gaius Cassius Nerva himself and the acknowledgement
of the Censores.

Why didn't Draco protest to the Censores first when this was discovered? I
would have been happy to make the correction, Had I been given the chance.

Since he likes to make assumptions, how about this one, Draco was out to
cause trouble for Sulla with no thought of what might be a more civil course
of action.
Bravo Draco, your search has netted you a real coup. The Censores made a
mistake! and you can even make accusations of cronyism. Except that Sulla
didn't approve the application and I had concerns that made me request an
interview.

The assumption I made was that my colleague was giving me, to the best of
his knowledge, accurate information. I still believe that.

This situation will be solved. Not by accusations of misconduct, but rather
by working together to identify problems and fixing them. I thank the Gods
for citizens like Senator Marcus Octavius Germanicus, who not only exhibits
the Roman Virtues, but delivers on the responsibilities he takes on. Someone
who brings solutions, not blame.

Until the webmaster is able to construct his search tool we Censores will
simply NOT delete files of those who resign, instead we will place them in a
non viewable position.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Recordatio argentiniensibus Sp/Eng Esp/Ing
From:	octavianuslucius@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 23:50:18 -0000

Spanish / Espa�ol
Hola a todos.
Les recuerdo que el pr�ximo domingo a las 18:00 hora local tendremos
nuestro pr�ximo chat.
Un saludo cordial, y hasta el domingo
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus

English / Ingl�s.
Hi.
I remind you that next Sunday 18:00 local time we shal have our next
chat meeting.
Meet you on Sunday
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Update on Tribune Sertorius
From:	octavianuslucius@--------
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001 23:58:45 -0000

I wish to express my condolences to my excellent friend Quintus
Sertorius.

Lucius Pompeius Octavianus

--- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@e...>
wrote:
> Ave,
>
> I just received an update from Quintus Sertorius. His Mother in law
> passed away last nite. He just wanted me to pass this information
to
> everyone.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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