| Subject: |
[novaroma] Citizens! Voting Ends Soon! |
| From: |
"A. Cato" <a.cato@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 20 May 2001 00:41:41 -0400 |
|
Salvete Omnes: I would like to thank my friend, L. Sicinius Drusus, for reminding our fellow citizens of the approaching end of this session of voting. It is also a good time to remind the citizens, that along with having the right to vote, that voting is also the duty of those who are citizens of our noble Republic.
And I also wish to remind my fellow citizens that the Cista will be closed at 12:00 noon Eastern time Sunday, May 20th. That is today for most of you seeing this post. So if you have not already done so, you still have the chance to vote until then. Here again is the site ... http://www.novaroma.org/cursus_honorum/voting . Let's get out and vote citizens. There are still a few hours left.
Ave atque vale, ... A. Cato, ... Rogator
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] RE: The Oligarchic Problem |
| From: |
"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 20 May 2001 06:59:18 +0200 |
|
M. Apollonius Formosanus L. Cornelio Sullae et Omnibus S.P.D.
I would like to apologise for having made a mistake of fact. You,
Sulla wrote below:
Sulla: Dexippus, who was an Augur of Nova Roma was never my
nomenclature. Please make sure you have your facts straight. Maria
Villoreal was my nomenclature and continued to be my nomenclature
right through the name change debate.
MAF: You are correct that Lucius Marius Peregrinus, then Fimbria, was
your nomenclator, not Dexippus. I misremembered who had written a
certain post, and I wish to correct myself. This does not convince me
with respect to your attitudes, however.
Continued excerpt from previous post:
>To take the second assertion first, I may say that in
>semi-private discussions with him, he has expressed himself in very
>immoderate terms against transsexuals, and it is very hard for me to
>believe in the light of the language that he used that his real
>feelings towards homosexuals could be much different.
Sulla: M. Apollonius I would really like to see such conversation
from you.
MAF: Since I am invited by you, the sender, and since this was going
out to more than eight people discussing the issue and was never
really private, I shall be happy to provide a sample from November 2
of last year. I am the opening, quoted, speaker:
> If Sulla had simply in the beginning written Marius' change of name
>in the Album Civium as he would if it were a changed address, with
>no fuss and no attempt to enforce his notions of sexuality on
>another civis and human being as though all of Nova Roma agreed with
>him, the subsequent course of our Respublica would have been much
>more tranquil and productive and the atmosphere less "negative".
> >
(Sulla:) And at the same time regelated to Nova Roma the same
as an RPG, when any Tom, Dick and Harry can come in pick any Roman
Name regardless of Sex and strut in the forum like a Strumpet.
MAF: It seems to me obvious that, you, Sulla, are very concerned
about sexual rôles, the changing of which is the essence of
homosexuality, is it not? Those pejorative alliterative words "strut"
and "Strumpet" (with a capital S!) seem to me to deny that those who
choose sexual rôles at variance with those approved of by you are
wild and shameless creatures deserving of the harshest reprobation
and control. Even if it were only in the context of a RPG it would
apparently disturb you very much - not even a physical reality but
the very idea! If any reversal of sexual rôles is so distressing to
you, it is hard to imagine how you can be so concenrned about the
rights of homosexuals and regard them as your bosom friends, as your
previous words tried to convince us that you do.
>As to the lack of discriminatoriness of his name-change
>edictum which is now up as a bill to be voted on, it very clearly
>singles out persons wishing to change the gender of their names so
>that they are forced to document their sex in burdensome ways that
>are not inflicted upon other groups.In the one test case we had,
>"burdensome" meant a demand of about 500 pages of confidential
>medical and psychological records from the Veterans Administration -
>for a start. That must be considered as both discrimination and
>harassment.
Sulla: I disagree, its called the burden of proof. If someone wants
to deviate from the norm.
MAF: Yes, there you have said it well, mi Sulla! Deviate from the
hard and fast norm as laid down by you, and someone has to prove his
right to be what he is. And you will set yourself up as the judge. I
am glad that you summed up your philosophy so clearly for all of us
to see.
Sulla: Then they should provide evidence to substantiate their
claim. A Drivers license, passport or birth certificate would be
ample evidence just as well...yet it suites M. Apollonius to take the
worst possible scenario.
MAF: The worst case was the only case we have before our eyes,
because that is the way you administered the only case you had before
you. And as a model, I agree with you that it was the worst!
Sulla: Yet, let me also state, that Maria had no problem researching
this information and submitting about 100 pages worth of
documentation to various members of the Senate including the Censors
when this issue was being worked on by myself and C. Marius Merullus.
MAF: Yes, you mean legal, medical and academic research to vindicate
the rights of all in a situation similar to his. To make things
better for a whole class of people like him and for the general
justice of Nova Roma. It was not a matter of personal medical
information, not a matter of difficult-to-obtain documents requiring
court authorisation, etc., and so not at all the same thing that I
was speaking of. You are comparing apples and oranges.
Thae fact of the matter is the Name-Change Edictum was not written
for transgendered persons who do not contemplate a surgical
operation. Marius explicitly told us he did not. In a post of the
26th of April last year Marius wrote on this list:
BTW, just to clarify a term: 'transgendered' means a person feels
like a man stuck in a woman's body or vice-versa; it does not mean
that person is going to go have an 'operation'. My sense of maleness
is independent of my physical being (which will be naught but food
for worms in another fifty years anyway; it's not the part of me that
*counts*), therefore I do not feel such surgery to be necessary.
MAF: The Edictum, however, appears to make the only clear exception
to an actual operation a statement by a psychological counsellor
giving advice preparatory to such an operation. Marius wished
(partly?) to use this provision, but in fact this legislation was not
written in such a way as to make clear provision for purely
psychological gender changes, it was always rather up in the air
whether you would interpret it in a way that would permit him to get
the name he felt was his. Thus, this legislation was never intended
by you to make a legal path for Marius to succeed in getting a
male-gendered name in Nova Roma without, at the least, utterly
unreasonable time and expense working through macronational coirts
and bureaucracy just to please you in Nova Roma. And some
jurisdictions - probably including Texas, Marius' location of
residence - would make it virtually impossible for persons living
there to get the correctly-gendered drivers' licence that you cite
repeatedly as being the simplest thing in the world to get and a
reasonable demand.
Thus I now think that the Name-Change Edictum, despite Marius' own
one-time over-optimistic hopes, was designed from the beginning to
thwart utterly the changing of gender on psychological grounds which
is what Marius and those like him in the future would require.
This Edictum has always been about discrimination and the denial to
a group that you, Sulla, dislike for your own personal reasons. It is
unjust that its provisions be made law here in Nova Roma to be a
stumbling block to human equality and basic fairness for all time to
come.
Valete!
_________________________________________________
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, Aedilis Plebeius Novae Romae
Amicus Dignitatis; Scriba Censorius
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Magister Scholae Latinae
Moderator Indicis protoprovincialis NR_Venediae
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
____________________________________________________
Memento Idus Martias - Remember the Ides of March.
____________________________________________________
All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph in the world is for
enough good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
___________________________________________________
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Invalid Voter Code |
| From: |
Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 20 May 2001 15:18:15 +1000 |
|
Is this meant to have a QEL before it - sorry - I am still relatively new -
or is this the full code
Marcus Sentius Claudius
-----Original Message-----
From: Domna Claudia Auspicata [mailto:comptess@--------]
Sent: Sunday, 20 May 2001 8:09 Am
To: NovaRoma (Main List)
Subject: [novaroma] Invalid Voter Code
Salvete Quirites!
One more Invalid Voter Code...
Tracking # 6150
Less than one more day to go so if the citizen with this tracking number
could try again or contact the Rogators or Censors immediately if the
problem persists.
Valete
Domna Claudia Auspicata
Rogator
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
**********************************************************************
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Invalid Voter Code |
| From: |
"A. Cato" <a.cato@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 20 May 2001 01:46:23 -0400 |
|
Salve Marce Senti: Your Voter Code consists of three letters followed by
three numbers. The Tracking Number consisting of a four digit number is for
reference. If you have a problem please contact the Censors at
censors@-------- .
Vale, A. Cato, ... Rogator
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 1:18 AM
Subject: RE: [novaroma] Invalid Voter Code
> Is this meant to have a QEL before it - sorry - I am still relatively
new -
> or is this the full code
>
> Marcus Sentius Claudius
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Domna Claudia Auspicata [mailto:comptess@--------]
> Sent: Sunday, 20 May 2001 8:09 Am
> To: NovaRoma (Main List)
> Subject: [novaroma] Invalid Voter Code
>
>
> Salvete Quirites!
>
> One more Invalid Voter Code...
>
> Tracking # 6150
>
> Less than one more day to go so if the citizen with this tracking number
> could try again or contact the Rogators or Censors immediately if the
> problem persists.
>
> Valete
> Domna Claudia Auspicata
> Rogator
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> **********************************************************************
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.
>
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
> for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
> **********************************************************************
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Invalid Voter Code |
| From: |
Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 20 May 2001 15:43:33 +1000 |
|
My apologies - have not voted that OFTEN !!!
Thanks
-----Original Message-----
From: A. Cato [mailto:a.cato@--------]
Sent: Sunday, 20 May 2001 3:46 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Invalid Voter Code
Salve Marce Senti: Your Voter Code consists of three letters followed by
three numbers. The Tracking Number consisting of a four digit number is for
reference. If you have a problem please contact the Censors at
censors@-------- .
Vale, A. Cato, ... Rogator
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark A Bird" <mark_a_bird@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 1:18 AM
Subject: RE: [novaroma] Invalid Voter Code
> Is this meant to have a QEL before it - sorry - I am still relatively
new -
> or is this the full code
>
> Marcus Sentius Claudius
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Domna Claudia Auspicata [mailto:comptess@--------]
> Sent: Sunday, 20 May 2001 8:09 Am
> To: NovaRoma (Main List)
> Subject: [novaroma] Invalid Voter Code
>
>
> Salvete Quirites!
>
> One more Invalid Voter Code...
>
> Tracking # 6150
>
> Less than one more day to go so if the citizen with this tracking number
> could try again or contact the Rogators or Censors immediately if the
> problem persists.
>
> Valete
> Domna Claudia Auspicata
> Rogator
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> **********************************************************************
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.
>
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
> for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
> **********************************************************************
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Our virtues must be protected. |
| From: |
antoniuscorvusseptimius@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 20 May 2001 07:11:48 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, lsicinius@-------- wrote:
> --- In novaroma@--------, antoniuscorvusseptimius@-------- wrote:
> > Salvete omnes,
> >
> > With respect to my gens and my ancestors I state that my
> > comments are my responsibility. That being said, I will defend our
> > virtues in any way that I can. The total disregard (and disrespect)
> > that has been in occurance in Nova Roma, must be dealt with in a
> > manner
> > that would put a stop to these acts that have every opportunity
> > to hurt the future of our cause. And (may I remind everyone) that our
> > goal is to reinstate this pure and honest way of life, that has been
> > blurred and desicrated in the past.
> > Being a devoted Roman is what I am. And a proud citizen of
> > Nova Roma.. Ours
> > is
> > a system that works, USE IT WISELY. Its time now for the accusers
> > (that
> > have crossed the line) to face the consiquences of their actions. As
> > everyone (who follows our virtues) knows it would be disrespectful to
> > do otherwise.
> >
> > respectfully, Antonius Corvus Septimius
>
> Salve,
>
> While I commend your zeal in defending our virtues, I have to warn you
> that you are making the same mistake as the accusers. If you think
> action should be taken, you should bring this matter before the
> Praetors, not the main list.
>
> Those who made the accusations have the same rights as any other
> citizen. Allthough their posts are evidence of their actions, we have
> not enacted a lex to deal with matters like this. Under Roman law
> charges could be bought, but we have not ratified those leges, and I
> think it would not be wise to bring charges against a citizen based on
> Ancient laws we have not ratified. Even if we ratified one of the
> ancient leges, or passed a new lex applying to this matter would be a
> case of lex ex post facto, an after the fact law, and a gross
> violation of their rights. They have commited no crime recognized by
> Nova Roma.
>
> If you wish to advocate a lex against future occurances like this, you
> have the right to do so. In this case "punishment" must be limited to
> the loss of dignitas the accusers have allready suffered.
>
> Vale,
> L. Sicinius Drusus
Salve,
True, if I wanted to bring charges against someone. I would do
as you recommended. Reading my post again, not clarifying the "action"
was intentional. Being an observation on the matter, rather than being
a formal request to seek "punishment". There is an apology in order,
for those who read this as being crude. I can assure you that there
were no other intentions to my posting on the main list, other than
voicing my opinion on the matter.And, (in the future) there may be a
few more "in my opinions" thrown in there :) Live well, Septimius
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: The Oligarchic Problem |
| From: |
lsicinius@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 20 May 2001 14:00:26 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, "M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> wrote:
> M. Apollonius Formosanus L. Cornelio Sullae et Omnibus S.P.D.
Snip
> MAF: It seems to me obvious that, you, Sulla, are very concerned
> about sexual rôles, the changing of which is the essence of
> homosexuality,... Snip
LSD: The term "Homosexual" was at one time used as the legal term for
the "mental illness" of prefering relations with one's own sex.
Because of this negative use of the term in the past, many people who
prefer this type of relationship consider "Homosexual" to be
offensive, and prefer to be refered to as "Gay". The term is still
commonly used by people who dislike gays and want to avoid the use of
even more offensive terms (at least in public).
Now I could begain a Rant, based on his use of that term, that Marcus
Apollonius has let his mask slip, that he thinks gays are mentaly ill!
That would be distorting his views with a cheap shyster trick for the
purpose of gaining some points in a debate, a tatic that I think very
little of.
Snip
> Sulla: I disagree, its called the burden of proof. If someone wants
> to deviate from the norm.
>
> MAF: Yes, there you have said it well, mi Sulla! Deviate from the
> hard and fast norm as laid down by you, ... Snip
LSD: The "Norm" is a stastical term that carries NO moral judgement.
It means no more than different from the majority of the sample. Now I
don't think that anyone would care to argue that the vast majority of
citizens want a name with a Gender that matches their physical sex, so
the term "diviate from the norm" is accurate, and carries no moral
judgement. "Norm" and "Normal" may share the same root, but they are
very different terms.
Many Moderns lack the respect for tradition that our ancesters had. To
the Romans of Antiquita the Mos Maiorum was an unwritten law that even
covered things like names. Until we can restore this respect for
traditions, we are stuck with the need for some kind of written rules.
I would prefer that we simply let the loss of dignitas serve as the
barrier to selecting a name, but respect for dignitas is part of the
Mos Maiorum and would not be an effective means to deter some moderns
from treating their name as a game. Because of this I reluctly have to
support some kind of written lex.
Because of this lack of respect for tradition, it is far more likely
that a request for a name that dosen't match a persons sex will come
from a prankster than from a person who is truely transgendered. Now I
know that Sulla was well aware that Marius wasn't a prankster, but he
is also aware that his actions will set a precedent for future cases.
He had to establish some kind of rules that future magistrates will go
by. We can't just allow things like this to be done as a personal
favor. Didn't we just have a debate about granting someone a return to
citizenship early, complete with accusations that it was a personal
favor based on friendship? In both cases Magistrates should follow
clearly laid out procedures, NOT personal relationships.
Now I think the procedures are too harsh, and would prefer something
that dosen't lay as great a burden on the transgendered, but would
still deter the casual prankster.
Lets's try to keep this debate on that level, rather than accusations
that the procedures are based on the Senior Censors alledged "Hatred
of Queers". These allegations only make it harder to solve the real
dispute, which is "How much, if any, doccumentation should a
transgendered person need to get a name change"
As for the Allegation that the Censor has a bias against gays, Well I
think his choice of a name refutes that argument! The Ancient sources
show that the man our Censor selected as his namesake was Bisexual,
and the recent historical novels by Collen McCullough made the Sulla
of antiquity's Bisexual nature well known to many who haven't read the
ancient texts. Now I hardly think that a man who hates gays would have
chosen the name Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix.
Marcus Apollonius, Your accusations of anti-gay bias are hurting the
cause of making it easier for transgendered indiviuals to get a name
change. In the name of Concordia I ask you to drop this tatic. Even if
you think your accusations are true, that dosen't change the fact that
making them is counterproductive.
Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Concordia and temporary 'exile'. |
| From: |
Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 20 May 2001 07:25:00 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salve Nerva,
I appreciate your response. I did not make my
suggestion, though, as a attempt to punish you.
Punitive actions, I believe we agree, are not suited
to this episode. It was simply a suggestion. That
you have given it any thought at all informs me at
least that your character may not be questioned on
this point, and I offer you my respect in this regard.
To any others who may have taken note of this, I
believe both Nerva and Draco have offered us a
solution of their own making. Two men, who obviously
do not care one for the other, have voluntarily chosen
to settle their very public discord, each in their own
manner. Nerva offers to contribute to the public
weal, Draco has offered to speak of this no more.
Draco, one question, mi frater: would you be willing
to match a portion of Nerva's contribution in a
gesture of accord and goodwill?
Should both men agree to donate a similar fund to the
treasury, in the honor of Concord, I too (despite my
shortage of funds at this time) will make a donation,
one in the name of wise Minerva, the other in the name
of noble Vesta.
I invite my fellow citizens to follow the lead of our
erstwhile antagonists, Draco and Nerva, and do the
same.
Iasonvs
--- gcassiusnerva@-------- wrote:
> Salve Iasonvs Serenvs, and to everyone,
>
> Your idea that I spend a month off the list and
> out of touch with the
> electronic body of the republic, is one I actually
> entertained a few days
> ago. But I had to reject this idea for two reasons.
>
> 1. A temporary exile from our main forum is a
> punitive action. No one has
> been charged with any crime by the state, and so no
> one has been tried or
> convicted of any crime. It makes no sense to impose
> a punishment where there
> has been no conviction.
>
> 2. The mailing list is open to all, citizen,
> non-citizen, and
> pending-citizen alike. No one during the period
> before his/her application
> is approved is asked to stay off the mailing list.
> I would not benefit from
> this, and neither would anyone else.
>
> Another solution is being worked out between the
> censors office, myself, and
> another magistrate.
>
> However, there is another thing I am personally
> happy to do. A few days
> ago, I wrote a check for Nova Roma in the amount of
> fifty dollars. I did not
> mail it yet. I will void that check and write one
> for double that amount, so
> that there will be the original fifty dollars
> contribution, and fifty dollars
> for Concordia, and for good will for this republic.
> This is not a fine or
> penalty, and no one has asked this or suggested this
> to me. It is a gesture
> for the good will of the Res Publica and to express
> my own regret this error
> happened.
>
> These are my last words on this business. If the
> magistrates or the Senate
> have questions for me regarding this, I will be
> happy to assist them in any
> inquiries they may have. And if citizens Draco and
> Limitanus still wish to
> make accusations, and call for a 'trial', I will be
> only too happy to meet
> them head on---in a properly constituted Nova Roma
> court.
>
> Gaius Cassius Nerva
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
=====
Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs Peregrinvs
(this is a post for which I accept all responsibility)
"The cosmos works by harmony of tensions, like the lyre and the bow."
"Time is a game played beautifully by children."
Heraclitus of Ephesus
HeraclitusFreehold@--------
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Concordia and temporary 'exile'. |
| From: |
"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 20 May 2001 16:32:08 +0200 |
|
Salve Iasone Serene,
> I appreciate your response. I did not make my
> suggestion, though, as a attempt to punish you.
> Punitive actions, I believe we agree, are not suited
> to this episode. It was simply a suggestion. That
> you have given it any thought at all informs me at
> least that your character may not be questioned on
> this point, and I offer you my respect in this regard.
>
> To any others who may have taken note of this, I
> believe both Nerva and Draco have offered us a
> solution of their own making. Two men, who obviously
> do not care one for the other, have voluntarily chosen
> to settle their very public discord, each in their own
> manner. Nerva offers to contribute to the public
> weal, Draco has offered to speak of this no more.
> Draco, one question, mi frater: would you be willing
> to match a portion of Nerva's contribution in a
> gesture of accord and goodwill?
>
I would gladly, but I cannot, for two simple reasons. The first one is that
I don't have a credit/debit card, plus, I don't have the money to donate. My
personal savings would equal something like 13$, and the money on my saving
account at the bank is blocked until my 18th birthday (which is in 8 days
:-)). As soon as that money becomes available, I'll see what I can do.
(snipped)
Vale optime!
Sextus Apollonius Draco,
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
Darkling_Crawler, Yahoo IM
"Come, fly the teeth of the wind; share my wings" (FSOL)
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Concordia and temporary 'exile'. |
| From: |
Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 20 May 2001 07:47:25 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Draco,
I will match whatever you donate, plus my own.
Iasonvs
--- "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
wrote:
> Salve Iasone Serene,
>
> > I appreciate your response. I did not make my
> > suggestion, though, as a attempt to punish you.
> > Punitive actions, I believe we agree, are not
> suited
> > to this episode. It was simply a suggestion.
> That
> > you have given it any thought at all informs me at
> > least that your character may not be questioned on
> > this point, and I offer you my respect in this
> regard.
> >
> > To any others who may have taken note of this, I
> > believe both Nerva and Draco have offered us a
> > solution of their own making. Two men, who
> obviously
> > do not care one for the other, have voluntarily
> chosen
> > to settle their very public discord, each in their
> own
> > manner. Nerva offers to contribute to the public
> > weal, Draco has offered to speak of this no more.
> > Draco, one question, mi frater: would you be
> willing
> > to match a portion of Nerva's contribution in a
> > gesture of accord and goodwill?
> >
>
> I would gladly, but I cannot, for two simple
> reasons. The first one is that
> I don't have a credit/debit card, plus, I don't have
> the money to donate. My
> personal savings would equal something like 13$, and
> the money on my saving
> account at the bank is blocked until my 18th
> birthday (which is in 8 days
> :-)). As soon as that money becomes available, I'll
> see what I can do.
>
> (snipped)
>
> Vale optime!
> Sextus Apollonius Draco,
> Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
> Darkling_Crawler, Yahoo IM
>
>
> "Come, fly the teeth of the wind; share my wings"
> (FSOL)
>
>
>
=====
Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs Peregrinvs
(this is a post for which I accept all responsibility)
"The cosmos works by harmony of tensions, like the lyre and the bow."
"Time is a game played beautifully by children."
Heraclitus of Ephesus
HeraclitusFreehold@--------
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: A Presumption of Innocence |
| From: |
Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 20 May 2001 17:21:07 +0200 |
|
Salve C. Flavi Diocletiane
> But, is this mistake worth to forge a crisis, or to speculate about a
> plot?
No, that's why I think L. Equitius did well with his decision, although
it deprives us of a valued cives for a month. I think we can accept that
as a compromise.
We have not only Lucius Sulla's word, but also those of Nerva and L.
Equitius that Sulla was not guilty of making this mistake, but of
relying on false information which he passed on to his collega due to
losing track of the data.
> The emnity between the Apollonii and the Cornelii is obvious.
I humbly ask you, mi praetor, not to support this false rumour. I don't
see a Gens feud or something alike between the Gentes Apollonia and
Cornelia. The fact that the patres familias of both disagree in many
points and apparetnly even dislike each other does not mean that all
their members join in their disputes.
I myself didn't oppose against Draco's accusations just to defend my
Pater Familas, but because it was a bad mistake of Draco (which is _my_
personal opinion) and full of formal defects. I apologize for being blunt.
> I appeal to both the gentiles of the Apollonii and the Cornelii to stop
> here, to withdraw and to think about, how to solve the situation and how
> to improve concordia.
That is what we've already been discussing. And I think Lucius Cornelius
Sulla will inform all of us about the decisions we made. :o)
Bene vale!
Lucilla Cornelia Cinna
Quaestrix C. Flavio Diocletiano Praetori Propraetori provinciae Germaniae
Retaria Sodalitatis Egressus
Musaea collegiorum Calliopes Cliusque Sodalitatis Musarum
Civis NovaRomana
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] GLADIATOR--The NR version, chap. 4 |
| From: |
gcassiusnerva@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 20 May 2001 13:40:27 EDT |
|
Salvete,
Events of the last several days made it hard to finish another chapter
quickly. So, I decided to lighten things up and go ahead posting just the
first half of chapter 4. It is short, naturally! The second half will
follow soon!
Chapter 4 Betrayal
"Flaccus! Flaccus!" Quintus Sertorius poked at the sleeping figure,
trying to wake the general. "Flaccus! Wake up sir!" The general stirred
sightly. "Wha? Oh damn, Sertorius, this had better be important", the
half-sleeping general wearily replied.
"It's the emperor, sir!"
Flaccus did not open his eyes. "What about the emperor sir?", he asked,
irritated.
"He stopped snoring sir!"
General Flaccus rolled over and covered his head with his blanket. "Oh,
Sertorius...he's probably just dead. Go back to..." And suddenly Flaccus
was bolt upright. "DEAD?!?!?!" He hurridly dressed and ran acorss the camp
to the emperor's tent. He was about to go in, when the flap was suddenly
opened from within by Marcus Cassius Julianus. "Grieve with me, brother", he
said. "Our beloved father, the emperor, is dead!" Flaccus said nothing. He
quickly scanned Cassius' face, then walked slowly to the cot on which rested
the deceased emperor. He knelt down beside the figure and paid his respects,
all the while scanning the surroundings, making mental notes. When he had
seen all he needed to see, he rose. Cassius spoke. "General Flaccus, your
emperor is asking for your loyalty and devotion." He held out both arms to
Flaccus. "Embrace me as your brother, Flaccus. I offer this only once!"
But Flaccus said nothing. He instead gave Cassius a cold stare, then made
for the exit. "Ok, my hand. Shake hands Flaccus!", Cassius offered,
concerned. But Flaccus still moved past him. "Alright, forget the hand
shake.....how about a high five! Just a high five general? Ok?", Cassius
pleaded. And still Flaccus moved on out of the tent. Cassius ran to the
flap, calling after him, "Ok, ok....how about your word then? Just your
word?" But Flaccus was gone.
"That was not wise, general!", chastised Quintus Sertorius when he and
Flaccus had entered the general's tent. Flaccus spat. "Not wise? Damn it
Sertorius, the emperor has been murdered!"
"Preposterous!", Sertorius objected. "We had the emperor's tent under guard.
On what grounds can you say he was murdered?"
"Fact one, Sertorius! His face was frozen in a look of terror. Fact two,
there was dog fur on the covers. Fact three, someone had been chewing on the
bed sheets! And fact four.....I stepped in dog doo doo on my way out of the
tent! The truth is, Sertorius, someone let a small dog into his tent,
deliberately!"
Quintus Sertorius looked impressed. "Hmmm...", he mused, "so in other words,
the emperor was HOUNDED to his grave!"
Flaccus looked annoyed. "Quintus..."
But Quintus was laughing now. "His fears DOGGED him all his life!"
"Quintus!"
"I just hope you are not BARKING UP A WRONG TREE!"
"QUINTUS!"
"Yes, sir?"
"SHUT UP!"
"No, sir! GUARDS!"
Flaccus was dumbfounded as several praetorians burst into the tent. "Seize
him!", Quintus ordered, and in a moment, Flaccus was grabbed and his hands
tied. Quintus gave him a smirk. "A brilliant deduction, general! But
perhaps, too brilliant?", he sneered. Then, he gave orders to the soldiers.
"Ride until dawn, and then execute him!" Flaccus stuggled in vain, saw it
was hopeless, and then made a last request. "Quintus! Promise me at least
that you will look after my family!" "Your family?", Quintus asked, feigning
surprise. "I assure you general, that that will not be neccessary. Your
family will be dealt with, imperially."
Flaccus roared in fury, and lunged at Quintus, but before he could get his
tied hands around Quintus Sertorius' throat, he was knocked unconscious by
the flat edge of a praetorian blade.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] temporary absence |
| From: |
LSergAust@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 20 May 2001 14:15:10 EDT |
|
Salvete Omnes
I am about to embark on the key steps of upgrading first my hard drive
(from 6G to 40G) and secondly my operating system (from OS8.6 to OS9).
Depending upon how smoothly it goes, I may be out of touch with the 'Net
for a few days (if I run into problems to which I have to hunt solutions).
I trust Nova Roma will still be here when I get back online. ;-)
Valete,
L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
------------------------------------------------------------
vita brevis sed amor longus, et amor omnia vincit
Life is short but Love is long, and Love conquers all.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] temporary absence |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 20 May 2001 12:32:15 -0700 |
|
Ave,
Senator Lucius Sergius, if you need any assistance, give me a phone
call...I have done those upgrades MANY times! <g>
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
LSergAust@-------- wrote:
>
> Salvete Omnes
>
> I am about to embark on the key steps of upgrading first my hard drive
> (from 6G to 40G) and secondly my operating system (from OS8.6 to OS9).
> Depending upon how smoothly it goes, I may be out of touch with the 'Net
> for a few days (if I run into problems to which I have to hunt solutions).
>
> I trust Nova Roma will still be here when I get back online. ;-)
>
> Valete,
>
> L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> vita brevis sed amor longus, et amor omnia vincit
>
> Life is short but Love is long, and Love conquers all.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Concordia |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 20 May 2001 12:33:04 -0700 |
|
Ave,
In the past few days, we have gone through a manufactured crises.
Brought upon by the allegations of Sextus Apollonius. I have stated my
piece on it...and I will not state anymore. What I would like to speak
on today is the blatant animosity between the Gens Apollonii and the
Gens Cornelii. I will not deny that it does not exist. To do so would
be foolish and essentially a lie. However, let me state that the Gens
Cornelia has discussed this very issue over the past few days and we are
trying to find a way to rectify this solution. One of my gens members
is or will be working on communicating with the Gens Apollonia in an
attempt to bring a compromise and attempt to restore Concordia. I hope
that this is something that can be reached for the sake of the Gens
Cornelia, the Gens Apollonia, and more importantly for Nova Roma. No
one benefits for a gens feud. And, I just wanted to state that I am very
willing to compromise. As I have stated before, I will bend as far as
necessary but I cannot break. I hope that M. Apollonius and other
members of the Gens Apollonia are willing to do the same.
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: The Oligarchic Problem |
| From: |
mansker@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 20 May 2001 19:50:10 -0000 |
|
Salve!
In the few months that I have been a member here (just since March),
I have read your postings with interest. I would just like to say
the following:
You, sir, seem to take more interest in causing harm than in solving
the problems that you are discussing. In the apparently endless
debates that have ensued due to the name change lex that we are
currently voting on, I have seen, and participated in, several
debates. Regardless of how many ideas are thrown out for discussion,
you seem ready and willing to quash them all if they don't fit in
with your idea of what the "Only right way" is.
Unfortunately, there will never be an "only right way", mainly due to
the fact that there are always several ways to deal with an issue,
all of them are workable, and none of them are the "only" way to
solve an issue.
In reply to some of your posts:
<snipped>
> MAF: It seems to me obvious that, you, Sulla, are very concerned
> about sexual rôles, the changing of which is the essence of
> homosexuality, is it not? Those pejorative alliterative
words "strut"
> and "Strumpet" (with a capital S!) seem to me to deny that those
who
> choose sexual rôles at variance with those approved of by you are
> wild and shameless creatures deserving of the harshest reprobation
> and control. Even if it were only in the context of a RPG it would
> apparently disturb you very much - not even a physical reality but
> the very idea! If any reversal of sexual rôles is so distressing to
> you, it is hard to imagine how you can be so concenrned about the
> rights of homosexuals and regard them as your bosom friends, as
your
> previous words tried to convince us that you do.
Isn't this reaching a little? Sulla, in saying that allowing people
to change names or choose names willy-nilly, is putting more weight
on the idea that NovaRoma is trying to become a nation then you seem
to be. According to you, everyone should be able to name themselves
whatever they want, without adhering to rules or regulations that,
even when I joined, governed the way that names are chosen at
NovaRoma.
>
>
> >As to the lack of discriminatoriness of his name-change
> >edictum which is now up as a bill to be voted on, it very clearly
> >singles out persons wishing to change the gender of their names so
> >that they are forced to document their sex in burdensome ways that
> >are not inflicted upon other groups.In the one test case we had,
> >"burdensome" meant a demand of about 500 pages of confidential
> >medical and psychological records from the Veterans
Administration -
> >for a start. That must be considered as both discrimination and
> >harassment.
>
> Sulla: I disagree, its called the burden of proof. If someone
wants
> to deviate from the norm.
>
> MAF: Yes, there you have said it well, mi Sulla! Deviate from the
> hard and fast norm as laid down by you, and someone has to prove
his
> right to be what he is. And you will set yourself up as the judge.
I
> am glad that you summed up your philosophy so clearly for all of us
> to see.
Again, what you need to explain is what is being proven? The person
whom this edict was addressing, who I understand is no longer here,
is, by physical sex, a WOMAN. That she wishes to be known as a man
is well documented, but as I said in an earlier post, if I were to
meet this person on the street, I would interact with them as a
female. The term "deviation from the norm" (and yes, it is a
deviation from the normal to be a female who wishes to be addressed
as a male. Even you have stated that this is a small minority.
There are a multitude of websites that address this issue) is simply
a statement of fact.
>
> Sulla: Then they should provide evidence to substantiate their
> claim. A Drivers license, passport or birth certificate would be
> ample evidence just as well...yet it suites M. Apollonius to take
the
> worst possible scenario.
>
> MAF: The worst case was the only case we have before our eyes,
> because that is the way you administered the only case you had
before
> you. And as a model, I agree with you that it was the worst!
It seems that any scenario, other than yours, was considered by you
to be worst case.
<snipped>
>
> MAF: Yes, you mean legal, medical and academic research to
vindicate
> the rights of all in a situation similar to his. To make things
> better for a whole class of people like him and for the general
> justice of Nova Roma. It was not a matter of personal medical
> information, not a matter of difficult-to-obtain documents
requiring
> court authorisation, etc., and so not at all the same thing that I
> was speaking of. You are comparing apples and oranges.
What is your idea of general justice? Justice that you set up along
your lines, or justice that sees that there is a way set up for
others like this to make the changes that they wish to?
> Thae fact of the matter is the Name-Change Edictum was not
written
> for transgendered persons who do not contemplate a surgical
> operation. Marius explicitly told us he did not. In a post of the
> 26th of April last year Marius wrote on this list:
>
> BTW, just to clarify a term: 'transgendered' means a person feels
> like a man stuck in a woman's body or vice-versa; it does not mean
> that person is going to go have an 'operation'. My sense of
maleness
> is independent of my physical being (which will be naught but food
> for worms in another fifty years anyway; it's not the part of me
that
> *counts*), therefore I do not feel such surgery to be necessary.
>
> MAF: The Edictum, however, appears to make the only clear exception
> to an actual operation a statement by a psychological counsellor
> giving advice preparatory to such an operation. Marius wished
> (partly?) to use this provision, but in fact this legislation was
not
> written in such a way as to make clear provision for purely
> psychological gender changes, it was always rather up in the air
> whether you would interpret it in a way that would permit him to
get
> the name he felt was his. Thus, this legislation was never intended
> by you to make a legal path for Marius to succeed in getting a
> male-gendered name in Nova Roma without, at the least, utterly
> unreasonable time and expense working through macronational coirts
> and bureaucracy just to please you in Nova Roma. And some
> jurisdictions - probably including Texas, Marius' location of
> residence - would make it virtually impossible for persons living
> there to get the correctly-gendered drivers' licence that you cite
> repeatedly as being the simplest thing in the world to get and a
> reasonable demand.
>
I would like to point out that the legislation does, indeed, have a
path for those who are not prepared to undergo surgery. The
legislation reads as follows:
B. A citizen who wishes to change the gender of his name counter to
that dictated by his sex must present, in support of his application,
proof of acceptance of the contrary sex by an authority of a
macronation, state, or municipality. In other words, if the applicant
is physically a man and has a form of macronational or municipal
identification listing his sex as female, or is officially recognized
as a woman in his country of macronational citizenship, then he may
use a feminine name in Nova Roma.
This does not appear to be a difficult thing to do, as others have
done it with great success. The name Billy Tipton comes to mind, as
he(she)lived his(her)life as a male.
Sending in a copy of that ID seems like an easy thing to do.
>Thus I now think that the Name-Change Edictum, despite Marius' own
>one-time over-optimistic hopes, was designed from the beginning to
>thwart utterly the changing of gender on psychological grounds which
> is what Marius and those like him in the future would require.
>
>This Edictum has always been about discrimination and the denial to
> a group that you, Sulla, dislike for your own personal reasons. It
>is unjust that its provisions be made law here in Nova Roma to be >a
stumbling block to human equality and basic fairness for all time to
> come.
It is NOT about discrimination, it is about setting guidelines. You
continue to accuse Sulla and others of having started this lex
because they, personally, do not approve of something. They started
this whole issue because you and others pushed them to do something.
It is not unfair, nor is it a stumbling block to human equality. If
you were asked, in your macronational life, to provide your ID to
prove who you are, you would not hesitate to do it. Why should you
hesitate to do it here?
Gaia Flacca Severa
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Gone! |
| From: |
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 20 May 2001 22:31:43 +0200 |
|
Salvete Omnes!
I'll be gone during Monday and Tuesday, so on Wednesday I'll start going
through my post.
Vale
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus
The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
Join the List for the Thule Provincia in Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://www.acc.umu.se/~kerish/novaroma/main.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
Using a keyboard that don't want to make L! :-(
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] attn argentinos /argentinians Chat just begun |
| From: |
octavianuslucius@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 20 May 2001 21:04:27 -0000 |
|
Salvete argentinienses
The chat room is now open. If after 15 minutes nobody comes in, I
shall close it. Remainder :Membership to the mailing list required.
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Hola a todos. El chat ya está por comenzar. Si no llega nadie
esperaré 15 minutos. Pasado ese tiempo daré por concluido el chat.
Los espero. Recordatorio : se requiere membresía a la lista de correo.
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
