Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The Oligarchic Problem
From:	Michael.Vaughan@--------
Date:	Sun, 20 May 2001 20:34:26 -0000

Speaking as an interested list reader...

-----------ker@-------- wrote:
> I would like to point out that the legislation does, indeed, have a
> path for those who are not prepared to undergo surgery. The
> legislation reads as follows:
>
> B. A citizen who wishes to change the gender of his name counter to
> that dictated by his sex must present, in support of his
application,
> proof of acceptance of the contrary sex by an authority of a
> macronation, state, or municipality. In other words, if the
> applicant is physically a man and has a form of macronational
> or municipal identification listing his sex as female, or is
> officially recognized as a woman in his country of macronational
> citizenship, then he may use a feminine name in Nova Roma.
>
> This does not appear to be a difficult thing to do, as others have
> done it with great success. The name Billy Tipton comes to mind, as
> he(she)lived his(her)life as a male.

In the UK it is, I believe, currently not possible for any subject to
alter their birth certificate to reflect a physical gender different
to that they were born with. No municipal identification can therefore
be provided for a UK transexual/transgendered individual.

Reflection of a UK transexuals/gendered individual's altered status in
Nova Roma therefore only seems possible if that person joins another
micronation in addition to Nova Roma with more flexible attitude to
gender assignment.

This seems somewhat onerous. Is it the official NR stance to force
their citizens to take on additional, perhaps even frivolous,
macronational citizenship, seemingly only because the NR law as
enacted does not permit the NR officials to exercise flexibility and
compassion.

> Sending in a copy of that ID seems like an easy thing to do.

Sometimes it is not available.

> It is NOT about discrimination, it is about setting guidelines.

"Normal" citizens do not appear to have to provide copies of their
identity papers to establish their gender. Why, then, do "unnormal"
citizens have to do this? The majority of the human population is
female, are males forced to prove their gender for NR citizenship?

Alternatively, the majority of internet users are (still) male, and
there is a long history of men on the internet masquerading as women
in chatrooms and other fora. Should female applicants for NR
citizenship be forced to prove their gender?

The establishment of a new identity curing gender reassignments seems
to be a difficult, delicate thing. If a person wished to begin their
transition to a differently gendered public personality, then the law
as enacted seems to force them to do it in comparatively dangerous
"real life" before permitting them to change identities in NR.

Imagine how silly it would be to force NR citizen applicants to
provide a certificate that they wear their tunics and togas 24 by 7
in the "real world" before permitting them to become citizens, or
wear the clothes at a re-enactment event, perhaps. Yet that is
what the NR law forces on those with gender assignment issues.

> It is not unfair, nor is it a stumbling block to human equality. If
> you were asked, in your macronational life, to provide your ID to
> prove who you are, you would not hesitate to do it. Why should you
> hesitate to do it here?

Because it may very well not be available. Because it places a
different burden of proof on individuals purely because of their
sexual/gender status. Because the NR laws appear to be unwilling to
allow magistrates to exercise their own good judgement on the issue.
Because it is important to avoid the appearance of descrimination,
almost as much as the fact.

-michael (mainly) Erroneous
--
"In the future, everything will be decided by me."
Gaius Julius Caesar

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Spamming
From:	domusludus@--------
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 01:11:04 -0000

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> Seia Silvania Atia has come up with a very good comparision to
> Roman tradition. It's like an digital signet ring.
> >
> Vale
> L. Sicinius Drusus

<G> Occassionally I come up with omething useful <G>.

This message is signed with my "official digital signet", if you
will. I really have no "official" capacity, but I will begin signing
my few posts in this way. If anyone would like my PGP key, please do
not hesitate to email me and I will see to it that you get it.

Pax vobiscum,
Seia Silvania Atia
Sodalis Familiaris http://home.earthlink.net/~domusludus/
The Temple of Juno: http://home.earthlink.net/~domusludus/temple/
The Domus Ludus Library:
http://mylibrary.keeboo.com/public/domusludus/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>
Comment: It's OK to be paranoid when everyone's out to get you!!

iQA/AwUBOwhsKE3S3IMoXfBQEQLSqQCfZiyqjvE/Io4KPgNS6gB6a4Fkz/UAoKFr
T/l76zuvEW/rsBZwJV+irpri
=qzel
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The Oligarchic Problem
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 01:14:39 -0000

Salvete,
This line has been quoted in recent posts.
> > Sulla: I disagree, its called the burden of proof. If someone
> wants
> > to deviate from the norm.

And the word "Normal" has been used in replies.

Citizens, Please don't put words In Lucius Cornelius' mouth that he
didn't say. "Norm" and "Normal" are two different words, with
different meanings.

"Norm" is a stastical term that notes a subgroup that is different
from the majority of the group, and it carries no judgement about that
difference.

In a room full of blonds, a person with red hair difers from the norm,
but that is not the same as saying that redheads aren't normal.

"Normal" does carry the implied meaning that those who difer are
abnormal, and can mean someone is making a moral judgement, but Lucius
Cornelius did NOT use this word.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The Oligarchic Problem
From:	mansker@--------
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 01:33:44 -0000

Salve -

As a reply . . .

<snipped>
>
> In the UK it is, I believe, currently not possible for any subject
to
> alter their birth certificate to reflect a physical gender different
> to that they were born with. No municipal identification can
therefore
> be provided for a UK transexual/transgendered individual.
>
> Reflection of a UK transexuals/gendered individual's altered status
in
> Nova Roma therefore only seems possible if that person joins
another
> micronation in addition to Nova Roma with more flexible attitude to
> gender assignment.
>
> This seems somewhat onerous. Is it the official NR stance to force
> their citizens to take on additional, perhaps even frivolous,
> macronational citizenship, seemingly only because the NR law as
> enacted does not permit the NR officials to exercise flexibility and
> compassion.
>

It has been stated that a copy of ANY ID is acceptable. In America,
(I don't know about the UK, sorry), if you go in to get ID, they
don't (seemingly)care (at least in Oregon)what you put on it as long
as you pay the fee. Again, speaking of Billy Tipton, he lived his
life with ID showing he was male, because he lived his life as a
male. The fact that physically he was female did not come to light
until after his death, and then became a cause celebre.

If you feel that changing your ID to reflect your (stated)gender is
frivolous, then perhaps you are not taking transgendering seriously.
Most of the transgendered I know (and yes, I know quite a few), take
this problem more seriously, and have taken steps legally to have
their gender documented. They have not had surgery, but quite a few
have changed their name to reflect what they feel is their proper
gender, as well as listing the gender they live, rather then the
gender they are, on their driver's license. This would be a
perfectly acceptable ID, as it proves Macronational life as the
gender that they are stating they want to be addressed as.

> > Sending in a copy of that ID seems like an easy thing to do.
>
> Sometimes it is not available.
>

Are you saying that these people have no ID?

> > It is NOT about discrimination, it is about setting guidelines.
>
> "Normal" citizens do not appear to have to provide copies of their
> identity papers to establish their gender. Why, then, do "unnormal"
> citizens have to do this? The majority of the human population is
> female, are males forced to prove their gender for NR citizenship?
>

When the person this lex was put together for initially signed up,
they signed up as a female. Then, they stated that they wanted to be
known as male. In this situation, I find it reasonable to ask that
they prove their identity as lived in macronational life, as they are
stating it is different then what they originally signed up with.

By the way, I don't think any of the citizens on NovaRoma can be
called Normal or UnNormal, as I don't know them that well.

> Alternatively, the majority of internet users are (still) male, and
> there is a long history of men on the internet masquerading as women
> in chatrooms and other fora. Should female applicants for NR
> citizenship be forced to prove their gender?

That is part of another discussion that is currently on-going, that
of having some sort of proof of ID, which I, for one, don't think is
a bad thing. I would like to think that everyone that I deal with in
NovaRoma is on the up and up, but, unfortunately, I cannot be sure
that the person that I am addressing is actually who they represent
themselves to be. ID would at least keep that to a minimum.

> The establishment of a new identity curing gender reassignments
>seems to be a difficult, delicate thing. If a person wished to begin
>their transition to a differently gendered public personality, then
>the law as enacted seems to force them to do it in comparatively
>dangerous "real life" before permitting them to change identities in
>NR.
>

If you do not live your life as a man (or woman)in real life, why
should you live your life as that gender on a web site? NovaRoma is
not for people who wish to make their lives "something different"
only on the web, it is for people who are serious about making a New
Rome a reality. If you are joining this site only to live
a "fictional" life, then that is a problem that you need to work out.

> Imagine how silly it would be to force NR citizen applicants to
> provide a certificate that they wear their tunics and togas 24 by 7
> in the "real world" before permitting them to become citizens, or
> wear the clothes at a re-enactment event, perhaps. Yet that is
> what the NR law forces on those with gender assignment issues.

Wearing a tunic, toga or whatever clothing you wish does not change
the way that you are addressed. Gender does.

>
> > It is not unfair, nor is it a stumbling block to human equality.
> > If you were asked, in your macronational life, to provide your ID
> > to prove who you are, you would not hesitate to do it. Why
> > should you hesitate to do it here?
>
> Because it may very well not be available. Because it places a
> different burden of proof on individuals purely because of their
> sexual/gender status. Because the NR laws appear to be unwilling to
> allow magistrates to exercise their own good judgement on the issue.
> Because it is important to avoid the appearance of descrimination,
> almost as much as the fact.
>

Again, my argument remains that if you are not willing to live your
life as your stated gender in macronational terms, it leads me to
believe that you are role-playing rather than transgendered. If you
are truly transgendered, why would you do any of the following:

Sign up with the gender you say is not your "true" gender?

Change genders (as I believe this person did, at least from reading
the archives) more than once?

Say that signing up with what you say is your "true" gender is lying?

Gaia Flacca Severa

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Subject:	[novaroma] Fight the real oppressors (was Re: The Oligarchic Problem)
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 20 May 2001 21:34:52 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael.Vaughan@--------
> [mailto:Michael.Vaughan@--------]
> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 4:34 PM
>
> Speaking as an interested list reader...
>
> In the UK it is, I believe, currently not possible for any subject to
> alter their birth certificate to reflect a physical gender different
> to that they were born with. No municipal identification can therefore
> be provided for a UK transexual/transgendered individual.
>
> Reflection of a UK transexuals/gendered individual's altered status in
> Nova Roma therefore only seems possible if that person joins another
> micronation in addition to Nova Roma with more flexible attitude to
> gender assignment.

Just an aside; name and/or gender status in some other micronation has no
bearing on one's status in Nova Roma. Did you mean "macronation" here?

> This seems somewhat onerous. Is it the official NR stance to force
> their citizens to take on additional, perhaps even frivolous,
> macronational citizenship, seemingly only because the NR law as
> enacted does not permit the NR officials to exercise flexibility and
> compassion.

Perhaps your energies, then, would be better spent in lobbying the British
government to get them to change their policy regarding such things. If, as
you say, your interest is compassion for those so affected, you would be
doing a vastly greater number of British people a service than the current
number of Nova Romans who fall under the provisions of this minor portion of
the Name-Change Edict. That is, zero (since Maria Villaroel, aka Marius,
resigned).

If you (and who are you, by the way-- are you even (still) a Citizen?) are
truly interested in helping such people, then aim your efforts more
precisely! Right now, no one that I know of is impacted by the transgender
provision of our name-change edict (possibly soon to become name-change
lex). However, if, as you say the situation in Great Britain is so onerous,
then surely people such as yourself and Formosanus should be directing your
invective towards 10 Downing Street! Their laws on the subject are impacting
thousands of people. Ours are impacting none.

If you are _really_ interested in this topic in and of itself, rather than
merely using it as an excuse to cause trouble and rabble-rouse, then you
shouldn't be wasting your time beating the drum here. You should be
organizing some sort of grass-roots campaign in Great Britain, which is,
apparently, in your eyes oppressing thousands of people. Certainly we here
in Nova Roma, with a much more flexible law that doesn't impact anyone, are
a waste of your noble efforts.

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Fight the real oppressors (was Re: The Oligarchic Problem)
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 11:41:35 +1000

Well said Consol - this has been given far too much web time - and heavens -
is this person a Citizen anyway !!!

Marcos Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus [mailto:germanicus@--------]
Sent: Monday, 21 May 2001 11:35 Am
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Fight the real oppressors (was Re: The Oligarchic
Problem)

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael.Vaughan@--------
> [mailto:Michael.Vaughan@--------]
> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 4:34 PM
>
> Speaking as an interested list reader...
>
> In the UK it is, I believe, currently not possible for any subject to
> alter their birth certificate to reflect a physical gender different
> to that they were born with. No municipal identification can therefore
> be provided for a UK transexual/transgendered individual.
>
> Reflection of a UK transexuals/gendered individual's altered status in
> Nova Roma therefore only seems possible if that person joins another
> micronation in addition to Nova Roma with more flexible attitude to
> gender assignment.

Just an aside; name and/or gender status in some other micronation has no
bearing on one's status in Nova Roma. Did you mean "macronation" here?

> This seems somewhat onerous. Is it the official NR stance to force
> their citizens to take on additional, perhaps even frivolous,
> macronational citizenship, seemingly only because the NR law as
> enacted does not permit the NR officials to exercise flexibility and
> compassion.

Perhaps your energies, then, would be better spent in lobbying the British
government to get them to change their policy regarding such things. If, as
you say, your interest is compassion for those so affected, you would be
doing a vastly greater number of British people a service than the current
number of Nova Romans who fall under the provisions of this minor portion of
the Name-Change Edict. That is, zero (since Maria Villaroel, aka Marius,
resigned).

If you (and who are you, by the way-- are you even (still) a Citizen?) are
truly interested in helping such people, then aim your efforts more
precisely! Right now, no one that I know of is impacted by the transgender
provision of our name-change edict (possibly soon to become name-change
lex). However, if, as you say the situation in Great Britain is so onerous,
then surely people such as yourself and Formosanus should be directing your
invective towards 10 Downing Street! Their laws on the subject are impacting
thousands of people. Ours are impacting none.

If you are _really_ interested in this topic in and of itself, rather than
merely using it as an excuse to cause trouble and rabble-rouse, then you
shouldn't be wasting your time beating the drum here. You should be
organizing some sort of grass-roots campaign in Great Britain, which is,
apparently, in your eyes oppressing thousands of people. Certainly we here
in Nova Roma, with a much more flexible law that doesn't impact anyone, are
a waste of your noble efforts.

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	[novaroma] New file uploaded to novaroma
From:	<novaroma@-------->
Date:	21 May 2001 01:46:07 -0000

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the novaroma
group.

File : /Graphics/romandays99.JPG
Uploaded by : pjane@--------
Description : Nova Romans at Roman Days, June 1999, Glenn Dale, Maryland. From left are Fiona, Merlynia Ambrosia Artori, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus, Marcus Minucius Audens, Gallio Vellius Marsallas, Marcus Cassius Julianus, Patricia Cassia, Flavia Minervina Iucundia.

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma/files/Graphics/romandays99.JPG

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

pjane@--------

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Subject:	[novaroma] NR and "real life" (was Re: The Oligarchic Problem)
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 20 May 2001 21:42:47 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael.Vaughan@--------
> [mailto:Michael.Vaughan@--------]
>
> The establishment of a new identity curing gender reassignments seems
> to be a difficult, delicate thing. If a person wished to begin their
> transition to a differently gendered public personality, then the law
> as enacted seems to force them to do it in comparatively dangerous
> "real life" before permitting them to change identities in NR.

You make a false distinction here. Nova Roma _is_ "real life". If you think
it's something else, you really don't understand what we're trying to do.
Just because at the moment most of our interactions are handled via the
Internet does not mean that is all we are. All over the world, people are
meeting face-to-face and forging the ties of community and society that will
make Nova Roma a true macronation some day, and that's happening more and
more as we grow and prosper. Nova Roma is a real, living, breathing, "real
life" entity.

Don't try to make a distinction between Nova Roma and "real life". This
ain't no role-playing game, and if you think it is, you are in the wrong
micronation.

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Fight the real oppressors (was Re: The Oligarchic Problem)
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Sun, 20 May 2001 21:46:48 EDT

The voting is over now, and we will all know soon enough whether the edict
stands of falls. It is hardly worth discussing now.

Nerva

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Subject:	[novaroma] Books
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 11:48:58 +1000

Ave

Has anyone picked up a good read lately that is set in either the Republic
or Empire period - just asking as I keep searching and not much seems to be
out there...

Vale

Marcus Sentius Claudius
Legate
Australia Provincia

Cheers,

Mark Bird - Village Roadshow

Tax Compliance Manager

Phone 9667 6964 (03), Fax 9639 5900 (03), Mobile 0408 532 963

This communication and any files transmitted with it are intended for the
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Books
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Sun, 20 May 2001 21:55:52 EDT

Yes!

I am reading a translation of Livy's first 5 books of his history Ab Urbe
Condita. This ediction is titled "The Rise of Rome'.

I enjoy it for the most part. But it can be tedious. I like the stories of
Romulaus and the kings, Horatius, Lucretia, Mucius before Lars Porsenna...but
so much of this book is repetitious. Plebs want this law or that law passed,
but wars delay the vote, and over and over and over.

And because it covers such a sweep of time, and deals with almost every
consular year, there are way too many names for me to keep separate.

Nerva

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Some Praise for Draco
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 00:28:52 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

I have seen many words here which seem to blame my gentilis Sextus
Apollonius Draco because he committed a very responsible act replete
with Roman (and any other kind of) Virtue: he called the attention of
the citizens to the clear-cut violation of a law (more specifically
an edictum with binding legal force) by the Censors and by a returned
civis.

Whether this was due to deliberate disregard for the law in the case
of a friend of one of the Censors or was a matter of carelessness
rather than deliberate intent, it was an undesirable thing for the
Respublica, and the citizenry (including the magistrates and Senate
presumably present on this list) had a very legitimate right to know
of this matter.

That Draco should wait until he had collected as much evidence as
possible before speaking out is only natural and highly responsible.
That he should bring the evidence forth when he supposed it might be
thought by many to cast doubt on the hopes of consistent
administration of a new lex being voted on is also reasonable in
terms of timing - we as voters all might well wish to know these
things while we can still vote against this measure in the light of
new evidence.

I was a bit doubtful when I heard of his plan to submit it to the
List secretly. If he had consulted with me in advance, I probably
would have advised him against that. Now I am not so sure - I have
seen a lot of concern focusing unhelpfully on "Cornelian-Apollonian
conflict" instead of on the clear fact that a returning civis applied
early for readmission according to the law and this seemed to be
approved in some way by a Paterfamilias (incidentally an acting
Consul) and two Censors. Certainly the early admission was illegal,
and perhaps the earliness of the application or information provided
by the returnee. *That* and that alone is the important issue that
should be focused upon. If an alias had been used to preserve
anonimity and permit the matter to focus on the issue and not on who
raised it, I see nothing wrong with that in principle, although it is
a pity that our habits of argumentation might seem to make that
desirable.

I have also seen random words about "informing the Praetors". Since
the Praetors are on this List, they *have* been informed together
with the whole on-line citizenry. Draco did not propose charges
against anyone, and it was therefore not really necessary to address
the Praetors *specifically*. But when a clearly illegal action was
shown to have taken place, whether accidental or purposeful, it is
remarkable that the Praetors do not exhibit any interest in this on
their own initiative. Or, indeed the Senate. A panal of inquiry of
some sort that could cross examine the four men concerned might seem
to be called for by common sense.

Then some questions arise: if the edictum, which under the
Constitution is binding upon the Censor issuing it, does not mention
specific punishments for either a Censor violating it or for a
returnee who connives at and accepts an illegally early reentry. does
that mean that they can just break the law whenever they wish with
complete impunity? Or perhaps a powerful member of the Oligarchy can
break the law (his own law!), but if someone unpopular with most of
the Oligarchy like this Aedile of the People were to break a law, it
would suddenly be found that Praetors or Senate would take an
interest in initiating an investigation or a punishment not
specifically written into the law? There is room for quite a lot of
abuse here. Perhaps it should be clarified by legislation.

And if it was an honest mistake (ALL of the four men involved really
forgot the date of resignation and thought it unnecessary to look it
up or provide it correctly...), then is it to be automatically
forgiven? Manslaughter and is not murder, but is still a crime. And
what if it was basically a mistake, but connected with a *deliberate*
carelessness about date confirmation or informing a colleague?

As everyone knows, I am against this edictum and this proposed lex,
and I don't care a jot if Sulla or Equitius leave all their friends
in voluntary exile return instantly - I am just concerned that people
they don't like (a certain case springs to mind...) be allowed to
come back with equal ease and promptness. And if we have to have
nasty and punitive laws (which I heartily doubt) then it would be
nice to see irresponsible officials be the first to suffer from them,
and not innocent private citizens.

Going back to Cornelian-Apollonian confluct, I think that at least
as far as I am concerned this is not basically a personal matter, but
a difference in values. We all would agree that we want Nova Roma to
be a "good place" and "prosper". The Cornelians seem to think that
that can best be achieved through Oligarchic domination of the state,
and detailed bureaucratic and often punitive laws and edicta limiting
the unreliable individual and forcing him to prove his own identity
and right to exist and to act at every step. We Apollonians think
that this can best be done through concern for individual rights and
dignity, a studious avoidance of needless bureaucracy and
unnecesarily punitive laws, and a diffusion of powers of initiative
and control throughout all classes of our society.

As long as you have this rivalry of values embodied in our
respective gentes, cives, you can according to your own values,
judgements, and consciences decide for yourselves which side to take,
having heard the most powerful arguments we can think of on the both
sides of issues. Such rivalries are indeed the traditional Roman way
of politics, and although I myself would prefer something gentler and
more consensual, we might as well all take advantage of things as
they are, and not anguish excessively over a bit of conflict.

Valete!

_________________________________________________
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, Aedilis Plebeius Novae Romae
Amicus Dignitatis; Scriba Censorius
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Magister Scholae Latinae
Moderator Indicis protoprovincialis NR_Venediae
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
____________________________________________________
Memento Idus Martias - Remember the Ides of March.
____________________________________________________

All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph in the world is for
enough good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
___________________________________________________

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Subject:	[novaroma] Fight the real oppressors (was Re: The Oligarchic Problem)
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 02:10:19 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, gcassiusnerva@c... wrote:
> The voting is over now, and we will all know soon enough whether the
edict
> stands of falls. It is hardly worth discussing now.
>
> Nerva

LOL
Do you think that the passage of this measure (which I expect to be
the result) will stop certain citizens from lecturing us on the
"mistake" we have made?

Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Books
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 20 May 2001 19:13:41 -0700

Ave,

I am in the third chapter of Party Politics in the Age of Caesar by Lily
Ross Taylor. It is a very interesting read about the governmental
structure and interpersponal communication at that age. I am not even
half way through it and at this point I would highly recommend it. It
gives a really good defination of the patron client relationship..the
Religio and its relationship with the state and about a number of
fascinating subjects.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Mark A Bird wrote:
>
> Ave
>
> Has anyone picked up a good read lately that is set in either the Republic
> or Empire period - just asking as I keep searching and not much seems to be
> out there...
>
>
>
>
> Vale
>
> Marcus Sentius Claudius
> Legate
> Australia Provincia
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mark Bird - Village Roadshow
>
> Tax Compliance Manager
>
> Phone 9667 6964 (03), Fax 9639 5900 (03), Mobile 0408 532 963
>
> This communication and any files transmitted with it are intended for the
> named addressee only, are confidential in nature and may contain legally
> privileged information. The copying or distribution of this communication or
> any information it contains, by anyone other than the addressee or the
> person responsible for delivering this communication to the intended
> addressee, is prohibited. If you receive this communication in error, please
> advise us by telephone on 613 9667 6511, then delete the communication. You
> will be reimbursed for reasonable costs incurred in notifying us.
>
>
>
> **********************************************************************
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.
>
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
> for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
> **********************************************************************
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Fight the real oppressors (was Re: The Oligarchic Problem)
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Sun, 20 May 2001 22:16:55 EDT

In a message dated 5/20/01 7:11:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
lsicinius@-------- writes:

> Do you think that the passage of this measure (which I expect to be
> the result) will stop certain citizens from lecturing us on the
> "mistake" we have made?

I think those of us who supported the edict are bored sick with the matter,
and will be glad to drop it. The key figures on the other side? No chance.

Nerva

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Fight the real oppressors (was Re: The Oligarchic Problem)
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 02:30:33 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, gcassiusnerva@c... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/20/01 7:11:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> lsicinius@-------- writes:
>
>
> > Do you think that the passage of this measure (which I expect to be
> > the result) will stop certain citizens from lecturing us on the
> > "mistake" we have made?
>
> I think those of us who supported the edict are bored sick with the
matter,
> and will be glad to drop it. The key figures on the other side? No
chance.
>
> Nerva
>
I didn't support the edict, as I found some portions of it too harsh,
however, as I said I think it will pass, and if I'm correct I will
accept the will of the people on this matter and refrain from starting
any new disscussions on this matter on this list. I will also try to
refrain from responding to the posts of others on this matter, unless
they bring up something so outragous that has to be refuted.

Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Some Praise for Draco
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 03:03:31 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> wrote:

SNIP

> I have also seen random words about "informing the Praetors".

Salve,

Marcus Apollonius, I was the person who bought up the topic of
informing the Praetors, and there was nothing random about it.

As I pointed out, the accusation had been made that high officals had
violated the constitution, and I cited the section that applied. This
was a matter that could have resulted in an Impaechment process being
bought against certain Magistrates.

The fact that these men hold high office does NOT have any effect on
their right to a fair trail process. A trial process before a jury
that has NOT been tainted by hearing excerpts of the evidence with
policital spin attached to it.

If an Impeachment trail had occured it would have taken place before
the Comitia Centuriata, and the jury would have been the people
assembled in their centuries. The People who had allready read
portions of the evidence on this list, and would NOT be entering the
Comitia as an unbiased jury.

The Right to a fair trail takes precedance over politics. That means
you present the evidence to the Praetors privatly, not to the Jury
BEFORE the trail process begans. If the Praetors do not think the
matter is worth persuing, then you may bring it before the people.

When you bypass the Praetors you are showing that the Right to a fair
trail is a Right that you do not respect. That is hardly keeping the
the postion of the defender of Indiviual rights that you aspire to.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Some Praise for Draco
From:	Decumus Quirinus Traianus <dab_3@-------->
Date:	Sun, 20 May 2001 19:53:32 -0700 (PDT)

Talk about beating a dead horse. I wish someone in
charge would step foward to tell Sulla that he's been
bad and is getting a spanking for "not" approving the
application, but is guilty for his associtaion with
said applicant. Then give the self serving Draco a pat
on the back for much ado about nothing. Or, just say
were not going to persue this issue becuase it's a
non-issue. Draco hasn't done anything for Nova Roma
but cry to the General Public. Posting this problem to
the list is like shouting BS in crowded street. If you
have a problem tell an official. This has just been a
public anoyance. APOLLONIUS, LET IT DIE! take it to
private with the proper officials.

-Decimus Cornelius Traianus

--- "M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> wrote:
>
> M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
> I have seen many words here which seem to blame my
> gentilis Sextus
> Apollonius Draco because he committed a very
> responsible act replete
> with Roman (and any other kind of) Virtue: he called
> the attention of
> the citizens to the clear-cut violation of a law
> (more specifically
> an edictum with binding legal force) by the Censors
> and by a returned
> civis.
>
> Whether this was due to deliberate disregard for
> the law in the case
> of a friend of one of the Censors or was a matter of
> carelessness
> rather than deliberate intent, it was an undesirable
> thing for the
> Respublica, and the citizenry (including the
> magistrates and Senate
> presumably present on this list) had a very
> legitimate right to know
> of this matter.
>
> That Draco should wait until he had collected as
> much evidence as
> possible before speaking out is only natural and
> highly responsible.
> That he should bring the evidence forth when he
> supposed it might be
> thought by many to cast doubt on the hopes of
> consistent
> administration of a new lex being voted on is also
> reasonable in
> terms of timing - we as voters all might well wish
> to know these
> things while we can still vote against this measure
> in the light of
> new evidence.
>
> I was a bit doubtful when I heard of his plan to
> submit it to the
> List secretly. If he had consulted with me in
> advance, I probably
> would have advised him against that. Now I am not so
> sure - I have
> seen a lot of concern focusing unhelpfully on
> "Cornelian-Apollonian
> conflict" instead of on the clear fact that a
> returning civis applied
> early for readmission according to the law and this
> seemed to be
> approved in some way by a Paterfamilias
> (incidentally an acting
> Consul) and two Censors. Certainly the early
> admission was illegal,
> and perhaps the earliness of the application or
> information provided
> by the returnee. *That* and that alone is the
> important issue that
> should be focused upon. If an alias had been used to
> preserve
> anonimity and permit the matter to focus on the
> issue and not on who
> raised it, I see nothing wrong with that in
> principle, although it is
> a pity that our habits of argumentation might seem
> to make that
> desirable.
>
> I have also seen random words about "informing the
> Praetors". Since
> the Praetors are on this List, they *have* been
> informed together
> with the whole on-line citizenry. Draco did not
> propose charges
> against anyone, and it was therefore not really
> necessary to address
> the Praetors *specifically*. But when a clearly
> illegal action was
> shown to have taken place, whether accidental or
> purposeful, it is
> remarkable that the Praetors do not exhibit any
> interest in this on
> their own initiative. Or, indeed the Senate. A panal
> of inquiry of
> some sort that could cross examine the four men
> concerned might seem
> to be called for by common sense.
>
> Then some questions arise: if the edictum, which
> under the
> Constitution is binding upon the Censor issuing it,
> does not mention
> specific punishments for either a Censor violating
> it or for a
> returnee who connives at and accepts an illegally
> early reentry. does
> that mean that they can just break the law whenever
> they wish with
> complete impunity? Or perhaps a powerful member of
> the Oligarchy can
> break the law (his own law!), but if someone
> unpopular with most of
> the Oligarchy like this Aedile of the People were to
> break a law, it
> would suddenly be found that Praetors or Senate
> would take an
> interest in initiating an investigation or a
> punishment not
> specifically written into the law? There is room for
> quite a lot of
> abuse here. Perhaps it should be clarified by
> legislation.
>
> And if it was an honest mistake (ALL of the four
> men involved really
> forgot the date of resignation and thought it
> unnecessary to look it
> up or provide it correctly...), then is it to be
> automatically
> forgiven? Manslaughter and is not murder, but is
> still a crime. And
> what if it was basically a mistake, but connected
> with a *deliberate*
> carelessness about date confirmation or informing a
> colleague?
>
> As everyone knows, I am against this edictum and
> this proposed lex,
> and I don't care a jot if Sulla or Equitius leave
> all their friends
> in voluntary exile return instantly - I am just
> concerned that people
> they don't like (a certain case springs to mind...)
> be allowed to
> come back with equal ease and promptness. And if we
> have to have
> nasty and punitive laws (which I heartily doubt)
> then it would be
> nice to see irresponsible officials be the first to
> suffer from them,
> and not innocent private citizens.
>
> Going back to Cornelian-Apollonian confluct, I
> think that at least
> as far as I am concerned this is not basically a
> personal matter, but
> a difference in values. We all would agree that we
> want Nova Roma to
> be a "good place" and "prosper". The Cornelians seem
> to think that
> that can best be achieved through Oligarchic
> domination of the state,
> and detailed bureaucratic and often punitive laws
> and edicta limiting
> the unreliable individual and forcing him to prove
> his own identity
> and right to exist and to act at every step. We
> Apollonians think
> that this can best be done through concern for
> individual rights and
> dignity, a studious avoidance of needless
> bureaucracy and
> unnecesarily punitive laws, and a diffusion of
> powers of initiative
> and control throughout all classes of our society.
>
> As long as you have this rivalry of values embodied
> in our
> respective gentes, cives, you can according to your
> own values,
> judgements, and consciences decide for yourselves
> which side to take,
> having heard the most powerful arguments we can
> think of on the both
> sides of issues. Such rivalries are indeed the
> traditional Roman way
> of politics, and although I myself would prefer
> something gentler and
> more consensual, we might as well all take advantage
> of things as
> they are, and not anguish excessively over a bit of
> conflict.
>
> Valete!
>
> _________________________________________________
> Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, Aedilis Plebeius Novae
> Romae
> Amicus Dignitatis; Scriba Censorius
> Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
> (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
> Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis
> Magister Scholae Latinae
> Moderator Indicis protoprovincialis NR_Venediae
> ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN:
> Formosanus
>
=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Books
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 14:30:21 +1000 (EST)

Ave Marcus Sentius,

Well, I can never go past Suetonius's Twelve
Caesars....almost like reading a beleivable and
enjoyable episode of Days of our Lives!;-)

If you're interested in the Emperors, I found the
following book a good read (Lives of the Later Caesars
: The First Part of the Augustan History, by Anthony
Richard Birley). Another book that I found was quite
brilliant was Trajan: Optimus Princeps. It was a great
resource, and if I could find it again, I'd certainly
buy it.

For a general resource, I never go past the Oxford
History of the Classical World. Very good, but try to
get it in softback, as hardback does tend to become a
bit expensive.

Penguin Books are great for the Classics, whether you
want to read Marcus Aurelius's Meditations, Juvenal's
Sixteen Satires, Caesar's Civil and Galic Wars or
Josephus's Jewish War. They've got a great range, and
all easy to understand. I recommend them
wholeheartedly. Plutarch, Polybius, almost any author
that is available will be available under the Penguin
Books range. Check them out at www.penguinbooks.com.

Hope this helps,

Valete bene,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

Legatus Australia Medius
Sacerdos Mars Invictus

--- Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
<alexious@--------> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Ave, 
 
I am in the third chapter of Party Politics in the Age
of Caesar by Lily 
Ross Taylor. It is a very interesting read about
the governmental 
structure and interpersponal communication at that
age. I am not even 
half way through it and at this point I would highly
recommend it. It 
gives a really good defination of the patron client
relationship..the 
Religio and its relationship with the state and about
a number of 
fascinating subjects. 
 
Respectfully, 
 
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix 
 
 
Mark A Bird wrote: 
> 
> Ave 
> 
> Has anyone picked up a good read lately that is
set in either the Republic 
> or Empire period - just asking as I keep
searching and not much seems to be 
> out there... 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vale 
> 
> Marcus Sentius Claudius 
> Legate 
> Australia Provincia 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers, 
> 
> Mark Bird - Village Roadshow 
> 
> Tax Compliance Manager 
> 
> Phone 9667 6964 (03), Fax 9639 5900 (03), Mobile
0408 532 963 
> 
> This communication and any files transmitted with
it are intended for the 
> named addressee only, are confidential in nature
and may contain legally 
> privileged information. The copying or
distribution of this communication or 
> any information it contains, by anyone other than
the addressee or the 
> person responsible for delivering this
communication to the intended 
> addressee, is prohibited. If you receive this
communication in error, please 
> advise us by telephone on 613 9667 6511, then
delete the communication. You 
> will be reimbursed for reasonable costs incurred
in notifying us. 
> 
> 
> 
>
********************************************************************** 
> This email and any files transmitted with it are
confidential and 
> intended solely for the use of the individual or
entity to whom they 
> are addressed. If you have received this email in
error please notify 
> the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699. 
> 
> This footnote also confirms that this email
message has been scanned 
> for the presence of computer viruses and
inappropriate content. 
>
********************************************************************** 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/</a> 
</tt>

 



<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"


Subject:	[novaroma] Solidarity
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 07:39:02 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Looking at the recent discussion on the gender issue, I am struck by
how the same old discredited arguments are heard again and again. The
gentleman accused of not being a citizen was certainly the most
intelligent and humane contributor. Anyway, here is an analysis of
the chief recurring themes and my replies:

1. People's "real" sex is their genital sex.

If someone feels he is sex X and that his bodily structure is a
mistake, what right has anyone else to say this? The relationships
among genes, gross bodily structure, gender-related physical brain
differences, sexual-partner preferences, and personality are
complicated, and the fact that there is a quite common type of
"normal" human being in this regard should not blind us to the fact
that quite a few people do not conform to the statistical norm.
(Since statistical norms give us our concept of what is normal,
through experience, I do not find much sense in distinguising sharply
between the two terms, by the way - nor do I think that Sulla did
so.)

2. Transgendered people are dishonest, untrustworthy, or whimsical
r�le players.

If someone reports to you accurately from his internal privileged
awareness of how his mind functions from a sexual point of view,
there is nothing dishonest about it. He is telling you what he is
thinking and feeling and experiencing, and whom he is desiring... Is
that not much more important that the configuration of his body? And
is that not so especially on the internet, where we are much more
personalities than bodies to each other? People are not so much meat
in a certain shape - we are living self-aware things, and what is in
that awareness is what makes a human being what he or she really is.

3. R�le players might take advantage of liberal laws.

So they might. So what? A r�le player has no special reason to want
to be the opposite sex - unless indeed he has transgendering
tendencies and is not a normal r�le player. If a r�le player can play
r�les here in NR that are worthwhile for him (which I rather doubt),
then he can in almost every case do so without changing his gender.
If a small number of r�le players here, out of a citizenry that on
the whole does not look at life in NR as r�le playing, want to play
such a little prank, it would be a harmless very small-scale
phenomenon. And eventually those involved would tire of it and just
slink off, or they would embarassedly admit to their joke and ask to
have their gender changed. I have never heard that a r�le player ever
made that kind of application for a sex correction in the alba. It is
a non-issue, but if someone insists that it is an issue, then take
measures against *all* r�le players, not just against the tiny
minority who might for playful reasons want to play the opposite sex!

4. Getting an appropriately-gendered driver's licence is terribly
easy and a reasonable request.

I do not know of any place where it is *easy* for non-surgical
transgendering people to get proper identification. Name changes to
those of the opposite sex are reasonably easy - but still a major
court operation - in the U.S. A name change would certainly be a far
more reasonable request than a sex change, if there had to be a
request. But there doesn't.

The central problem is that some people feel there is a problem if
someone happens to have a wrongly configured body. And of course
there is: that body. But if the human soul knows its sex, we should
side with that soul of a fellow human being and not take the side of
his body against him.

A transgendered person has a body problem. He or she is not normal.
It makes life difficult. And the prejudice of others makes it much
more difficult. When someone finds the courage to "come out of the
closet" and live the sex he spiritually is, that is a brave act,
because it can be very daunting.

Lucius Marius Peregrinus did that. When he first registered for
citizenship he did so as a "she" because, although his everyday
personality had his whole life been essentially masculine, he was
legally female. When after psychological counselling and soul
searching he wanted to live completely in accord with what he knew to
be his nature, he applied for a name change. Here. He was already
living a masculine identity in the external world, although he had
not bothered trying to get legal documentation (in Texas!). But Nova
Roma was where his heart really was, and it mattered to him most to
be officially recognised for what he was *here*.

But he ran up against an officious Censor who took no thought for
the difficulties he was facing in getting accepted, and who became
one more voice rooting on the false appearance of his body instead of
sympathising with his soul. As though one would root for someone's
cancer or cheer on a heart attack, ignoring the human spirit who was
suffering from the failings of the body.

If we cared about human beings here, we would see the suffering and
acknowledge the special need to change the sex of a name. So many of
the arguments here against this simple fact have struck me as those
of the worst kind of truely destructive and self-blinded r�le playing
- "We must stop the transgendered in the name of nation building!"
What nonsense.

A nation is a community, and we are so far a nation the size of a
village, one where human relations should be important and can be
much more important than in an impersonal macronation. And yet we act
so uncaringly towards others, although those others are fellow Nova
Romans with many shared interests and a desire to live together with
us because of those interests. In a macronation we are glued together
by an economic nexus, by family, by police, by geographical
proximity. As an internet-based micronation we are held together by
common interests and by a sense of solidarity. Yet not caring at all
what a transgendering fellow citizen is going through, and just
adding to his miseries, is a fine example of how not to build a
caring community or increase our solidarity.

We are voting to cause problems for people who have done nothing
wrong and want to come back, and to help the eager few push taxes
onto a lot of people who would really prefer that Nova Roma remain
less ambitions - and free. There is nothing among our latest
proposals to be proud of in terms of building solidarity - it is all
just ways of making life difficult for each other instead of using
our collective Romanitas here to enrich our lives in human terms.

There has been talk recently about "Concordia". And yet we only have
laws being voted upon which trample on the vulnerable - the citizen
with an unpopular sexuality, a citizen just wanting to come home, a
citizen who did not come here to pay taxes... If people want
Concordia, let us start by protecting the weak, the common, the
vulnerable, and turn back from the direction we are being led.
Otherwise the Discordia of protest and criticism is inevitable.

Valete!
_________________________________________________
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, Aedilis Plebeius Novae Romae
Amicus Dignitatis; Scriba Censorius
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Magister Scholae Latinae
Moderator Indicis protoprovincialis NR_Venediae
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
____________________________________________________
Memento Idus Martias - Remember the Ides of March.
____________________________________________________

All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph in the world is for
enough good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
___________________________________________________

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Subject:	[novaroma] GLADIATOR-NR Version,chap 4 cont.
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 02:33:58 EDT

Chapter 4, part 2 Betrayal

{Note: In this chapter, a new character named Puellarius is introduced.
While I make use of Nova Roma citizens in this story, the character of
Puellarius is NOT based upon the little real-life son of Nova Roma citizen
Oppius Flaccus.}

Flaccus' head throbbed from the blow as he regained consciousness.
Three praetorians had bright him to a remote place in the forest, where the
execution was to take place. Flaccus was a hero to the army; it was
essential that no one witness the event. One of the praetorians, Moravius,
pulled Flaccus down off the horse, posted Scaveola on the narrow path to
serve as lookout, and ordered the third, Marcius, to perform the execution.
Marcius pushed Flaccus to his knees and stood behind him, raising his sword
to strike the blow. "At least let me die as in battle, facing my enemy!",
Flaccus implored. Marcius looked over at Moravius, who nodded, and then
raised Flaccus to his feet, and walked in front of him. He raised his sword.
"Don't move Flaccus", he said, "and your death will be quick!"
Flaccus took a deep breath. "I am ready", he answered. But then, Flaccus
looked over Marcius shoulder, and faked him out. "What the hell is Moravius
doing?", he asked in mock surprise. Marcius fell for the trick, and turned
around to see what Flaccus was looking at, and Flaccus ran forward and struck
a perfect kick in Marcius' groin! Marcius shrieked, "AAAAAAAAGGGUUH!", and
Flaccus seized his sword, and ran the blade downward through Marcius open
mouth. The blade burst out the back between the shoulder blades, and Marcius
fell backward, gurgling disgusting sounds as his life left him.
Moravius had reached for his own sword, but was horrified to find it was
frozen
stuck in his scabbard! "Here, let me help you", said FLaccus, taking the
grip and pulling with Moravius to free the blade. "You know", Flaccus
continued, "that when you are in the field, it really helps to sleep with
your sword half-out of the scabbard, and then give it a good rub down when
you wake up. It keeps the frost from making it stuck, and keeps the excess
moisture away." After a few moments of struggle, the blade came free in
Flaccus hand. "Well, that did it! Remember that! You pick up a few things
when you are in the field as much as I have been!"
Moravius smiled. "Well, I never knew that! Thanks alot!"
"Don't mention it!", Flaccus said, as he hacked the side of the blade into
Moravius skull, ripping off part of his head.

A short distance away, Scaveola, the third praetorian in the party, was
relieving himself against a tree, when suddenly an object fell on the ground
in front of him. It was the head of Moravius! He recoiled in terror of the
thing, and spun around. But it was too late. Flaccus, with a war cry, ran
his sword through Scaevola's belly just under the breast piece, impaling him
to the tree. Scaveola writhed and shook, and gasped his last slow breaths as
his shoes became crimson with his own blood gushing out upon them. Then he
died.
Flaccus, his head still aching terribly, mounted a one of the horses.
After getting his bearings by a glance to the sun, he reeled the horse
around, and sped off for Dalmatia.

Puellarius, the rather effeminate eighteen year old son of Oppius
Flaccus, peeked out of the doorway of the family home outside of Salona, in
the province of Dalmatia. He looked left, then right, saw no one, and crept
out of the house, his small bundle over his shoulder. He walked away from
the house and the life he was leaving behind. It was afternoon,and his
mother, Salonina, the stunningly beautiful wife of General Flaccus, was in
the house beginning to prepare supper. Puellarius was almost at the long
road leading to the house, when a young girl's voice called to him. He
stopped, and saw it was Aeternia.
Aeternia was a small, waifish, raven haired slave girl, whom Oppius
Flaccus had picked up at a fifty percent-off sale at a local flea market.
Though a slave, Aeternia was well treated, and allowed to attend lessons with
the other girls who her mistress Salonina instructed.
"Tink!", the boy said, surprised.
"You're running away, aren't you?", the girl asked him. The boy nodded.
"Yes", he said, "I am leaving forever, and we will probably never meet again.
Now please, do not grieve or cry! It is for the best!" At that, the girl
laughed. "Oh, I agree it is best! I hate your guts! I'm GLAD you're going!"
Puellarius was shocked. He was struck dumb, and his bundle fell open to the
ground. When Tink saw the open bundle, it was her turn to be shocked. "What
is this???", she cried, picking up a garment. "This is one of MY dresses!"
Puellarius looked embarassed. "Uh, I must have picked it up by accident."
"Yeah, right", the girl sneered. "Now that you're leaving at least my
undergarmets will be safe!"
The boy looked sheepish, and rolled his eyes, and Aeternia sighed, "Don't
tell me", she said, "you're wearing those too??? So where are you going?
How will you live? Are you going to actually get a job?"
"A job?", he asked, "Me, a wage slave living off the crumbs that some
capitalist exploiter of the people will drop on the floor for me to pick up?
NO WAY!"
"So what will you do?", Aeternia replied.
"I have my plans!", he answered defiantly. "I do not need to tell you! But
someday, I will be a very important and great woman, er, man. There are
those of us who will not rest until this militaristic dictatorship is
overthrown and power restored to the people! And then we will build a world,
a new world, where everything is owned by everyone. Imagine no posessions!
I wonder if you can!"
"A sorry sight you would be right now to your father!", Aeternia said with
disgust.
Puellarius spat. "My father is a fascist, militarist tyrant, cruelly
conquering the peaceful, nature loving, peoples of Germania."
"Uh, Puellarius, THEY began the war!"
"A war for empowerment and liberation from the oppressive Roman
military-industrial complex! WE will remake the state! There will no more
distinction between slave and free. ALL people will be slaves of the new
state, equally!"
From up the road came the sound of horses, but Puellarius did not
notice. Aeternia shook her head and turned around, and began walking back to
the house, ignoring him. Puellarius walked backwards up the road, yelling
after her. "I will never follow in my father's footsteps! The Roman
military machine will NEVER run me over! Never, never, NEVER!"
At that moment, he was run over by the horses of the praetorian guard!
"Ooooooof!", he cried as the horse knocked him aside. "Sorry!", called the
praetorian tribune over his shoulder. Aeternia spun around, and her eyes
bulged as she saw the praetorians ride up, and dismount. The praetorian
tribune glared at Aeternia. "You are the slave of Oppius Flaccus?", he
asked. Aeternia nodded, and gulped a big gulp.

Flaccus arrived later that day. He had ridden his horse almost to
death. He was as exhausted as the horse, for he had had little sleep and
little food. At one point on the journey, his horse had fallen and Flaccus
was thrown against a rock. Now he had a serious wound on his shoulder, which
he had bandaged as best he could by tearing a strip off his tunic sleeve.
He could see the smoke of the burning farm as he rode over the hill.
Riding furiously up to the destroyed farmhouse, he dismounted, and slapped
the horse to run free to the water trough. He walked about, calling out his
wife's name, but there ws no response. He was about to enter the smoldering
remains of the house, when he heard movement off to the right. As he looked
over in the direction of the sound, he saw Aeternia crawling out on her
stomach from under the wreckage. Her face was blackened by smoke, and she
was buried up to her back in rubble. "Aeternia!", he yelled, and ran over
and knelt beside her. "Aeternia? What happened?" The poor little slave
girl slowly turned to look at him weakly. "The praetorians", she gasped, for
lack of breath. "The praetorians came, and....and....ah...ah...ACHOO!", she
sneezed.
Flaccus wiped the mucus off his face.
"I'm sorry, master", she apologized. "One of the praetorians gave me his
cold!"
"Those bastards!" Flaccus growled. "But, oh....my poor Aeternia!" He reached
down to stroke her hair....and her hair came off in his hand!
"They shaved my head", the girl sighed. "I found that wig in the cellar....I
hope you don't mind, master!"
"Those bastards!", Flaccus spat. "Oh, my dear, bald Aeternia!", he said
tenderly, as he reached to take her hand. "Ouch!", the girl cried, taking
her hands away. "They yanked out my fingernails!" she sighed, "And I had just
polished them!"
"Those bastards!", Flaccus cursed. "But, my poor, dear, sweet, bald
Aeternia!" Flaccus reached out and touched her back, and Aeternia winced.
"Ouch!", she cried. "I am sorry master....but that was where they stuck me
with the dagger!"
"Those bastards!", Flaccus yelled in anger. "Oh, my poor, dear, precious,
bald, Aeternia! I will dig you out! Do you think you can stand?"
Aeternia shook her head weakly. "No, they broke my legs, master!"
"Those bastards!", he screamed. "My poor little, precious, sweet, adorable,
bald, Aeternia! I will ride into town and fetch the doctor to set your
broken legs!"
But Aeternia shook her head again. "No....they chopped my legs off after
they broke them!"
"THOSE BASTARDS!", howled Flaccus with rage. "Aeternia, my darling, little
bald one, I swear to you, I will avenge your cold, hair, fingernails, back,
and legs! I will care for you, and you will be a daughter to me!" Flaccus
reached out and with both arms he gently turned the girl over, and suddenly
his face was splattered with blood spewing like a fountain out of her chest.
"Oh, booger!", she heaved. "They ran a sword into my chest! I had managed to
stop the blood, but now, you have busted the wound open again, and
I....I'm...d....dye....dying. Thanks alot master!"
Flaccus remembered his wife, and he grabbed the girls shoulders, desperate.
"Aeternia! Aeternia...don't you dare die on me yet, or I'll kill you! My
wife and son....Aeternia, WHAT HAS BECOME OF MY WIFE AND SON!!!"
Aeternia's breathing was labored now, but she opened her eyes again slightly.
"Your son....has run away.....wearing my clothes!"
"And my wife!" Flaccus cried in desperation. "What has become of my wife!"
At that, her eyes widened in terror. "Your wife!", she cried, "Oh, my poor
mistress!"
Flaccus was shaking her now. "Aeternia, WHAT HAPPENED TO HER!"
She stared at him a moment, almost unable to speak. But then, with her eyes
almost bulging out of her head, she screamed the horrible news:

"YOUR WIFE WAS TRANSFERRED TO A TEACHING POST IN BRITANNIA!"

She gasped, choked up blood, and her eyes rolled back. She was dead.

Flaccus rose, weakened, in shock, as the horror of what he had heard
descended upon him. "Britannia! NO! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"
Then, he passed out unconscious.

End of Chapter 4. This story will eventually continue in Chapter 5

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Faint Praise for Draco
From:	QFabiusMax@--------
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 03:39:27 EDT

In a message dated 5/20/2001 7:09:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time, bvm3@--------
writes:
Savete!
<< The Cornelians seem to think that that can best be achieved through
Oligarchic domination of the state, and detailed bureaucratic and often
punitive laws and edicta limiting the unreliable individual and forcing him
to prove his own identity
and right to exist and to act at every step.<<

Surely Apollonius you cannot believe that. Why do you make this out to be a
private
vendetta between the "Optimates" Cornelii, and the "Populares" the Apollonii
and Marii?

Ex Censores, please come forward and help me out here. Explain to this
blockhead that the precedent existed long before Lucius Cornelius issued his
edictum.
Explain that Cornelius requested input from the former censors before issuing
it and it did not happen in a vacuum, as the Aedile implies.

>>We Apollonians think that this can best be done through concern for
individual rights and dignity, a studious avoidance of needless bureaucracy
and unnecessarily punitive laws, and a diffusion of powers of initiative and
control throughout all classes of our society. >>
So you say. Yet when Minucius and I gave that power you request, diffusion
of control on the main list, did not the list spin quickly out of control?
So badly in fact, that the Senate had to appoint one their own, Patricia
Cassia, and give her powers to get the list back under control. Do you
member my speech that day in the forum, Apollonius? I said "You citizens had
power in your own hands, and you could not live up to the responsibility."

You forget that we have come just out of a start that saw almost a monarchy
running NR the first year except in the matter of the DEC. elections. Those
were truely democratic, by written ballot and totally illegal. We still need
strong leadership and a strong advisory body at the top. Maybe in ten years
as we grow and mature less control will be needed.
That would be wonderful. Right now though, I think we will continue the way
we have been going.

Meanwhile, if you citizens continue to make complaints via the main list to
the Praetores,
we are powerless to do anything. The accused could not get a fair trial, if
it came to that since all the citizens which are potential jurors would be
considered tainted, and could not be summoned. Fair trial and all that
prohibits it.
If you have a complaint or wish to press a charge, you do it by mailing the
Praetors@--------, not here on the main list. But be aware, have facts,
not hearsay or innuendo or you will find the case summarily dismissed.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Update on Tribune Sertorius
From:	"yquere@--------"<yquere@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 09:41:58 +0200

Salve Tribune Serorius

I wish here to express in the name of Provincia Gallia
my deepest sympathy to you and your family.

Vale Bene
Ianus Querius Armoricus
Propraetor Galliae

> ---------- Initial message -----------
>
> From : Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
<alexious@-------->
> To : "novaroma@--------"
<novaroma@-------->, "SenatusRomanus@yahoogroups.co
m" <SenatusRomanus@-------->
> Cc :
> Date : Thu, 17 May 2001 12:39:48 -0700
> Subject : [novaroma] Update on Tribune Sertorius
>
> Ave,
>
> I just received an update from Quintus Sertorius. His
Mother in law
> passed away last nite. He just wanted me to pass this
information to
> everyone.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Draco the villain, Sulla the saint
From:	"yquere@--------"<yquere@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 10:54:01 +0200

Salvete Quirites

On the point that Sextus Apollonius Draco raises in his
post regarding the Questionnaire we issued in Gallia, I
also asked the Censors a list of e-mail of Gaul NR
citizens to support his own request.

I never received any formal answer, and the debate about
e-mail privacy which was occuring at that time lead me to
think that the problem would'nt be solve until legal
dispositions were voted on that point. That is why I
concluded there was no hope getting informations from the
Censors because lex didn't permit them to give them to me.

I was not aware that Britania had the opportunity to get
these informations. If it is true, I am quite shocked by
this news.

As Propraetor Galliae, I appointed Draco as Procurator
and Legatus Galliae Borealis for his involvment and
activeness in NR are constant and fully benevolent as far
as I can see regarding Provincia Gallia.

I am not part of Gens Apollonia nor Cornelia and tried
constantly to stay out of partisans fights and factions.
I have no patron nor clients, and try to act neutrally in
the exercice of Propraetorship, which seams in
concordance with Romanitas to me.

But I would truly feel insulted, personnaly and in the
name of Provincia Gallia, if personnal grief against one
of my deputy in Gallia, and thus non-legal reasons, might
have led any of the NR administration officer to retain
informations we officially requested.

The example of the last days, which seams to point out
that some magistrates are applying NR laws and rules with
a rigidity that we can qualified of "relative" to the
person to whom it has to be applied. I am sure this not a
generalized problem, but my feelings are becoming more
and more suspicious about the behavior of some of us.

I think this suspicion is quite general, unhopefully, and
that can explain Lex Vedia about taxes didn't pass. How
can we be assured that money will be well managed and
accounted when the behavior of some of us is submitted to
doubt and distrust ?

I don't want to accuse anyone I particular, but I think,
for NR sake's, that the recent problems should be taken
very seriously by the Praetors and that sanction should
be taken if needed. No citizen should therefore think
that anyone can do anything illegal in total impunity.
This seams a key matter in the evolution of NR according
to me.

Let Concordia seize her rights back among NR.
Pax Deorum Vobiscum
Bene Valete

I.Querius Armoricus Lutecio
Propraetor Galliae

> From : "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
> To : <novaroma@-------->
> Cc :
> Date : Fri, 18 May 2001 18:58:36 +0200
> Subject : [novaroma] Draco the villain, Sulla the saint
>
Extract from Draco's message
>
But it goes
> further. For my recent questionnaire I wanted to send
to the citizens of
> Gallia, I requested the e-mail addresses of these
citizens (with permission
> of the propraetor I work for); in total, they were
asked four times, to no
> avail. For a similar reason, Propraetor Albinus of
Britannia only requested
> them once and got them pretty fast. Strange, isn't it?
But they were busy.
> They do sloppy record keeping.
>

>
> Valete bene,
> Sextus Apollonius Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Books
From:	Kanat Elibol <kelibol@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 12:41:41 +0300

Avete...
I'm re-reading Christian Meier's biographic search on
'Caesar'...he's dealing not only with
his character and personal life but also giving detailed information
about the late Republic era..
fine touches on Sulla,Cato,Cicero and Marius can be found through
their relations with the
Caesar.....it is also giving some good answers on his friendship and
his enmity with Pompey
I'm re-reading because there are many passages to underline and not
because I'm a thick head :)
Valete bene

Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Ave
>
>Has anyone picked up a good read lately that is set in either the Republic
>or Empire period - just asking as I keep searching and not much seems to be
>out there...
>
>
>
>
>Vale
>
>Marcus Sentius Claudius
>Legate
>Australia Provincia
>
>
>
>Cheers,
>
>Mark Bird - Village Roadshow
>
>Tax Compliance Manager
>
>Phone 9667 6964 (03), Fax 9639 5900 (03), Mobile 0408 532 963
>
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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Books
From:	"Vaughan, Michael ST" <Michael.Vaughan@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 11:14:18 +0100

Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion wrote:
>I'm re-reading Christian Meier's biographic search on
>'Caesar'...he's dealing not only with his character and
>personal life but also giving detailed information
>about the late Republic era.

I read that about a month ago, and strongly recommend it. My roman
scholarship isn't remotely strong enough to know just how contentious some
of his ideas are, but the picture he paints of the psychologies of those
involved with the events around Caesar's climb to power is extremely vivid.
I found this very engaging - genuinely well-written and translated, I
thought.

Also just read H.H. Scullard's two volumes "A History of the Roman World
753BC to 145ish BC" and "From the Gracchi to Nero, 135BC to 68AD". Quite dry
at times, but seemed to give a good overview of the events of the period.

-michael E
--
"In the future everything will be decided by me." -- Gaius Julius Caesar
Senatus Populusque Romanus 2754 AUC

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Solidarity
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 07:35:35 -0500 (CDT)

> Looking at the recent discussion on the gender issue, I am struck by
> how the same old discredited arguments are heard again and again.

Yes, I've noticed that too.

So, will you please stop flogging this particular horse?

Vale, Octavius

---
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	[novaroma] Legio VIIII Hispana, Australia
From:	"Sean Sheridan Richards" <legioix@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 14:13:50 -0000

>From Legio IX Hispana's Austalian cousins.. Wayne and Glenda Robinson of Legio VIIII Hispana...

The other thing we have done recently was the
Computer Associates "Empire" ad. The General next to the Emperor was
wearing a helmet and beltus I made, Glenda and I also equipped three
soldiers and a stack of civilians. I'm the one in the toga walking
next to the bus in the street scene, Glenda is on the right of frame
with her back to the camera in the scene with the balcony.

.. Wayne came the USA on business few years ago and spent a couple of days visiting San Diego....

His webpage:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3296/index.htm

Salvete
Hibernicus
LEG IX HSPA

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Draco the villain, Sulla the saint
From:	"Marcos Boehme" <m_arminius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 11:29:50 -0300

Salvete Quirites, Salve Propraetor Ianus Querius

> yquere@-------- wrote:
>Salvete Quirites
>
>I
>also asked the Censors a list of e-mail of Gaul NR
>citizens to support his own request.
>
>I never received any formal answer, and the debate about
>e-mail privacy which was occuring at that time lead me to
>think that the problem would'nt be solve until legal
>dispositions were voted on that point.
>I was not aware that Britania had the opportunity to get
>these informations. If it is true, I am quite shocked by
>this news.

I requested a list of citizens of Brasil, with their email accounts, and the Censor Cincinnatus gave it to me quite fast. Perhaps a error or mistake occurred in your case.

Marcus Arminius Maior
Propraetor of Brasil

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Draco the villain, Sulla the saint
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 09:37:34 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Iane Queri Armorice,

> I also asked the Censors a list of e-mail of Gaul NR
> citizens to support his own request.
> I never received any formal answer...
> I was not aware that Britania had the opportunity to get
> these informations.

There's a simple reason for this.

The Censors do not have a tool available to easily produce a list of
all citizens in a province, with their email addresses. One of the
pages I have created for them lists all citizens with email addresses
but without province; another lists citizens in a province, but without
email addresses.

Thus, the only way the Censores could generate this list would be to
look at these two pages side by side, then to perform the laborious task
of iterating through each name on the citizen+province page, then finding
that same name amongst the 900+ citizens and pending citizens on the
citizen+email page, and pasting information from both pages into the
message. No doubt this would take several hours, and therefore is
probably low on the Censores "to do list".

The issue came up recently on the Propraetores' mailing list, where
a few other governors were complaining about slowness in getting these
lists of names. At that time, I mailed the propraetors' list and the
Censors, indicating that this was a laborious process for the Censores,
but that I could produce the list in about a minute just by writing a
database query. I asked the Censores to simply forward such requests
to me along with an indication that they gave permission for the
release of that information. Since then, I have produced several
such lists, including the one for the propraetor pro tem of Britannia.

Until about a month ago, the Censores were unaware of just how quickly
I could produce this information. Thus, it is unsurprising that their
responsiveness to such inquiries has recently improved.

Vale, Octavius.

---
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Some Praise for Draco
From:	"Nick R. Ramos Jr." <nramos@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 15:27:08 -0000

Salvete Omnes!

I have exercised some restraint in this discussion, because in the
most part I have deemed it somewhat overblown. However, let me address
one issue that is deeply offensive, and clearly states that this whole
mess is jsut about rabble-rousing by a very irresponsible individual:

M. Appollonius Formosanus clearly states in his post that we
Cornelii are interested in establishing an oligarchy. As a Cornelii, I
am offended on two counts:

1. The greatly arrogant and overbearing assumption by this man that I
am a mindless slave hopelessly in lockstep with my Paterfamilias on
every issue. Mi Formosane, I happen to by several years senior to my
Paterfamilias, and pretty damn opinionated. I have had some very
distinctive differences of opinion with him, and I am fed up with your
sweeping generalizations and false arguments - and most of all, for
your utter lack of respect for anyone who may differ one iota from
your opinion. Discrimination? Isn't that rooted in the absolute
refusal to accept anyone else's point of view? You seem to practice it
blatantly and openly here on an almost daily basis.

2. I am not an oligarch, nor would I countenance such a system in Nova
Roma. Stop labeling us simply to make political discussion points.
Your dialectic fails even in the Marxist context you seem to like
using for all your arguments. I did not come here for "rightist",
"leftist" or any other "-ist" ideology. I came to this Forum because I
believe in Roma and her heritage; because despite her vices and
cruelty, She was the Lux Mundi that made our world possible. I am
honored to serve as an Aedile - as you should be - in this noble
endeavour to bring the best of Roma back into breathing, living
reality. As part of that, I will endeavour to respect you and keep you
free from labels and slurs - I only ask that you do the same. Calling
us Nazis, fascists, or OLIGARCHS demeans you and your cause, the same
as it would for us to resort to name-calling.

We in Gens Cornelia have discussed for over a month now how to create
a better rapport with Gens Appollonia. In my discussions with you and
yours I have attempted to be civil and respectful, and discuss ideas
rather than trade insults. Your response has been to insult us to try
and make yourself look better. If I were to search for a better way to
bolster a contention that you do not care one whit for Nova Roma, but
only care for your capacity to be a gadfly and disrupt the work of
others, I could not have found one.

Formosane, if you truly care about Nova Roma, begin by practising the
virtue of Veritas. There is truly much to praise in Draco, for if
nothing else, he is a passionate and earnest young man. Although he
may err in judgement sometimes, he has demonstrated he is trying to
learn and work towards the future. Perhaps you would do very well
indeed to emulate his accomplishments.

With all due respect, if my Paterfamilias was not a Censor, I would
have sought a Censorial Nota against you or exercised a provocatio
against you for these insults. No one should be subject to the
harassment and slander that these words have brought upon our Gens. I
am trying, with this very public appeal, to find a way to stop this
very un-Roman conduct and inject Veritas back into this discussion. I
stretch forth my hand in amicitia and Concordia to you, mi Formosane -
it is entirely up to you how we end this. But end it must.

Marius Cornelius Scipio
Aedilis Curulis

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: The Oligarchic Problem
From:	"Vaughan, Michael ST" <Michael.Vaughan@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 13:11:43 +0100

G. Flacca Severa/mansker@-------- wrote:
>If you feel that changing your ID to reflect your (stated)gender is
>frivolous, then perhaps you are not taking transgendering seriously.

My apologies for the confusion I have introduced. I misread "macronational"
in your original post - "Municiple or macronational" - as mIcronational, and
presumed erroneously that NR would accept citizenship documentation from
another micronation. My point, that people might be "forced" to acquire
citizenships in other micronations purely for the sake of establishing an
altered gender in NR, is now quite irrelevant in the light of your
correction. Thank you.

>>>Sending in a copy of that ID seems like an easy thing to do.
>>Sometimes it is not available.
>Are you saying that these people have no ID?

You would be surprised how little ID is required for daily life in the UK. I
do not drive, and only acquired a passport last year - I'm now 27. I'm
uncertain whether it is permissible to present a different gender on the
passport than on one's birth certificate. I expect not.

>If you do not live your life as a man (or woman)in real life, why
>should you live your life as that gender on a web site? NovaRoma is
>not for people who wish to make their lives "something different"
>only on the web, it is for people who are serious about making a New
>Rome a reality. If you are joining this site only to live
>a "fictional" life, then that is a problem that you need to work out.

Consul F. Vedius Germanicus has already pointed out that NR _is_ real life.
My understanding is that there are situations were a transexual or
transgender would feel safe in living out their altered identity, and
situations where they might not (similar in kind, if not detail, to a
homosexual person being "out" in certain situations, "in" in others). The
requirement that a transexual/gendered individual live out their identity in
public life first, and only then can their new personna be accepted as valid
in NR seems to run contrary to the idea that life in NR, however mediated
(by physical or electronic community) _is_ real, and as valid as any other
safe forum for the expression of a citizen's identity. That someone might
choose to express their true identity here amongst fellow citizens of NR,
before some parts of off-net macronational life would be, surely, a great
compliment to NR?

>Again, my argument remains that if you are not willing to live your
>life as your stated gender in macronational terms, it leads me to
>believe that you are role-playing rather than transgendered.

I understand the concerns regards roleplaying that many people have raised.
If NR is to be taken seriously in its aspirations to full national status,
then it seems that formal controls on the freedom of its citizens to "play
around" with their names, willy-nilly, are appropriate.

However, I would suggest that formal legislative control of this issue could
be seen as somewhat heavy-handed. If a citizen does play foolishly with the
gender of their name, without justification, then they will be shown and
seen by many to be nothing more than the roleplaying dilletante that they
are. Their dignitas will be in suffer, not that of the State. That, of
course, verges on rather broader issues... :)

That NR has taken action and sought to deal with this issue does NR great
credit in my thoroughly inconsequential eyes ;). It seems a shame that a
more holistic view wasn't taken when the legislation was drafted to deal
with the whole issue of proof of identity during the citizen application
procedure, and that the gender change issue "sticks out" only because the
other issues have not yet been fully dealt with. Adding an "at the censor's
discretion" to the legislation would have softened the apparent
differential, but hindsight is a cruel thing.

My interest in this? I am attempting to gauge whether I would be suitable
for NR, and whether NR is suitable for me should I apply to become a
citizen. Freedom of expression and discrimination issues are dear to my
heart, and I wish to understand the situation so I can guarantee a firm and
sincere commitment to NR should I join. I would wish to take on NR
citizenship wholeheartedly, not with qualifications.

My understanding was that this mailing list was open to non-citizens. Please
accept my apologies if I had offend any citizens by my actions.

-michael (mainly) Erroneous
--
"In the future everything will be decided by me." -- Gaius Julius Caesar
Senatus Populusque Romanus 2754 AUC

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Subject:	[novaroma] Provincia Gallia and Citizens e-Mail information
From:	"yquere@--------"<yquere@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 17:34:17 +0200

Salve M. Octavio Germanico
Curator Araneum

I am aware of the difficulty you have to face collecting
and checking informations and I thank you for the huge
work you do about it.

My questions was more precisely :
- Why Britania and Brasilia got "rather easily" these
informations when I didn't received at least an answer to
my formal demand by the Censors precising me the
dificulty of the task ?
The request was issued several times, both by myself and
Sextus Apollonius Draco, as Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Scriba Propraetoris et Procurator Galliae

In that context, allow me to question myself about
equality of treatment between provinces. This is not
criticism, but connections between events which raises
questions and need of precisions into my mind. In other
words this is purely factual and without shady politician
views in mind.

I seriously have doubts precisely because Sextus
Appolonius Draco was involved in the project we had in
Gallia, and that he has obviously opponents among NR
citizens.

I would feel very sad if personnal matters between
citizens or magistrates, in which I am not involved,
would have prevented Provincia Gallia to organize itself
and promote NR in western Europe, which I am responsible
for as Propraetor of the Province.

Such a thing could be considered as an impediment to the
performance of my duties, and I am determined to get a
clearer view on this matter in concordance with the oath
of office I pronounce before the citizens of our Republic
on the Forum.

As Sextus has constantly been striving for developpement
of Provincia Gallia, and considering that he is a
reliable Legatus and Procurator, I naturally am more
suspicious about his opponents.

As a matter of fact, I do consider Censor Sulla with
great respect for his constant involment within NR and I
don't want to harass him moreover. The recent problem
with Nerva citizenship is until prooved the contrary an
error with less consequences and "Errare Humanum est"

But my questions and doubt seem quite legitimate and my
request is just to assure myself that Imperium will not
be preventing from being applied in Gallia because of
what I consider sometimes petty quarrel between factions.

" Errare humanum est.... sed perseverare diabolicum "

Thank you anyway for your answer
Pax Deorum tibiscum et Maxima Fortuna Novae Romae

Vitat Provincia Gallia

I. Querius Armoricus Lutecio
Proprator Galliae

> ---------- Initial message -----------
>
> From : Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
> To : novaroma@--------
> Cc :
> Date : Mon, 21 May 2001 09:37:34 -0500 (CDT)
> Subject : Re: [novaroma] Draco the villain, Sulla the
saint
>
> Salve Iane Queri Armorice,
>
> > I also asked the Censors a list of e-mail of Gaul NR
> > citizens to support his own request.
> > I never received any formal answer...
> > I was not aware that Britania had the opportunity to
get
> > these informations.
>
> There's a simple reason for this.
>
> The Censors do not have a tool available to easily
produce a list of
> all citizens in a province, with their email
addresses. One of the
> pages I have created for them lists all citizens with
email addresses
> but without province; another lists citizens in a
province, but without
> email addresses.
>
> Thus, the only way the Censores could generate this
list would be to
> look at these two pages side by side, then to perform
the laborious task
> of iterating through each name on the citizen+province
page, then finding
> that same name amongst the 900+ citizens and pending
citizens on the
> citizen+email page, and pasting information from both
pages into the
> message. No doubt this would take several hours, and
therefore is
> probably low on the Censores "to do list".
>
> The issue came up recently on the Propraetores' mailing
list, where
> a few other governors were complaining about slowness
in getting these
> lists of names. At that time, I mailed the
propraetors' list and the
> Censors, indicating that this was a laborious process
for the Censores,
> but that I could produce the list in about a minute
just by writing a
> database query. I asked the Censores to simply forward
such requests
> to me along with an indication that they gave
permission for the
> release of that information. Since then, I have
produced several
> such lists, including the one for the propraetor pro
tem of Britannia.
>
> Until about a month ago, the Censores were unaware of
just how quickly
> I could produce this information. Thus, it is
unsurprising that their
> responsiveness to such inquiries has recently improved.
>
> Vale, Octavius.
>
> ---
> M. Octavius Germanicus
> Propraetor, Lacus Magni
> Curator Araneum et Senator
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The Oligarchic Problem
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 15:54:03 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Vaughan, Michael ST" <Michael.Vaughan@l...>
wrote:
SNIP
> My interest in this? I am attempting to gauge whether I would be
suitable
> for NR, and whether NR is suitable for me should I apply to become a
> citizen. Freedom of expression and discrimination issues are dear
to my
> heart, and I wish to understand the situation so I can guarantee a
firm and
> sincere commitment to NR should I join. I would wish to take on NR
> citizenship wholeheartedly, not with qualifications.
>
> My understanding was that this mailing list was open to non-
citizens. Please
> accept my apologies if I had offend any citizens by my actions.
>
> -michael (mainly) Erroneous
> --

Salve,

Yes this list is open to non citizens. Some of the response to your
post is because this issuse has proven to be very devisive, and
certain actions by indiviuals on both sides have not helped.

Allthough some have attempted to use this for their own ends, the
issuse is the ammount of doccumentation required for a name change,
not if transgendered people are welcome to become citizens.

I am happy to see both your intrest in Nova Roma, and how serious you
are about citizenship.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Provincia Gallia and Citizens e-Mail information
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 11:19:22 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Propraetor,

> My questions was more precisely :
> - Why Britania and Brasilia got "rather easily" these
> informations when I didn't received at least an answer to
> my formal demand by the Censors precising me the
> dificulty of the task ?

Most likely because they asked immediately after I suggested to the
Censores that they should allow me to answer such requests, and explained
how easy it is for me to do so. Your request came some months before,
when the Censores had to do it themselves using a very laborious and
lengthly process.

I suggest you request this information from the Censores again, now
that it can be so quickly produced.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Provincia Gallia and Citizens e-Mail information
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 12:22:08 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: yquere@-------- [mailto:yquere@--------]
> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 11:34 AM
>
> My questions was more precisely :
> - Why Britania and Brasilia got "rather easily" these
> informations when I didn't received at least an answer to
> my formal demand by the Censors precising me the
> dificulty of the task ?

If I may, perhaps asking for the information, rather than demanding it,
might be a good start.

Also, I feel constrained to point out that I myself have had, in the past,
to wait weeks and make repeated requests to receive this sort of information
from the Censors. This situation has vastly improved in recent months,
however, and I am sure that, were you to repeat your request today, you
would receive the information quite quickly.

There is certainly no evidence of favoritism (or discrimination), simply of
administrative shortcomings, which have been noted and, it seems, overcome.
We are none of us perfect, and I would hope that we would be able to make
allowances for our elected officials, all of whom undertake their duties to
the Republic out of their own free time, and with no salary.

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Provincia Gallia and Citizens e-Mail information
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?WWFubiBRdely6Q==?= <yquere@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 19:05:04 +0200

I Querius Armoricus Consule Flavio Vedio Germanico SPD
----- Original Message -----
From: Flavius Vedius Germanicus <germanicus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 6:22 PM
Subject: RE: [novaroma] Provincia Gallia and Citizens e-Mail information

> Salve
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: yquere@-------- [mailto:yquere@--------]
> > Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 11:34 AM
> >
> > My questions was more precisely :
> > - Why Britania and Brasilia got "rather easily" these
> > informations when I didn't received at least an answer to
> > my formal demand by the Censors precising me the
> > dificulty of the task ?
>
> If I may, perhaps asking for the information, rather than demanding it,
> might be a good start.
>
IQA: Sorry, this is imprecision of my english, in French demand is
equivalent to ask

> Also, I feel constrained to point out that I myself have had, in the past,
> to wait weeks and make repeated requests to receive this sort of
information
> from the Censors. This situation has vastly improved in recent months,
> however, and I am sure that, were you to repeat your request today, you
> would receive the information quite quickly.
>
> There is certainly no evidence of favoritism (or discrimination), simply
of
> administrative shortcomings, which have been noted and, it seems,
overcome.
> We are none of us perfect, and I would hope that we would be able to make
> allowances for our elected officials, all of whom undertake their duties
to
> the Republic out of their own free time, and with no salary.

IQA : So do I by the way.
Besides, as adviced to me, I would repeat my request to Censores.
Thank you for your answer

Vale

> Next year in the Forum!
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
> email: germanicus@--------
> AIM: Flavius Vedius
> www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Solidarity
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 12:29:15 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Marce Apolloni,

> Looking at the recent discussion on the gender issue, I am struck by
> how the same old discredited arguments are heard again and again.

Once again, your cheap rhetorical tricks and your distortions of the truth
force me to respond.

You have tried to slip in the word "discredited" where it does not belong.
Nothing the proponents of the Lex Cornelia et Maria have written has been
"discredited" except in your own imagination, yet you attempt to assert
that it has. You accuse your opponents of repeating the "discredited"
arguments "again and again", but you yourself have been as guilty of
this as anyone. You have even attempted to steer the debate back
towards your pet issue when something completely unrelated (such as
the tax proposal) was under discussion.

> The gentleman accused of not being a citizen was certainly the most
> intelligent and humane contributor.

Here you show your prejudice again... again you claim that those who are
on your side in a debate are the "most intelligent". You said the same
of those who left during the Ides of March. It seems that in your mind
the sole determinant of a person's intelligence is whether they share your
moral opinions.

[snipped: the usual tired old arguments of MAF, that we've all seen before]

> But he ran up against an officious Censor who took no thought for
> the difficulties he was facing in getting accepted,

Once again you overlook the fact that the decision was made by three
Censores, who Marius separately applied to. In your ongoing quest to
destroy Sulla's reputation, you try to portray him as a single "officious"
indvidual acting out of his own prejudice, when in fact he consulted his
predecessors and his colleague and took their advice under consideration.

> As though one would root for someone's
> cancer or cheer on a heart attack, ignoring the human spirit who was
> suffering from the failings of the body.

A fully-functioning and healthy human body of either sex is not
a cancer or a heart attack.

> - "We must stop the transgendered in the name of nation building!"
> What nonsense

Yes, it's nonsense, and it's nonsense that you yourself have created.
No one has ever suggested that we "stop the transgendered"; this is just
another one of your usual distortions and exaggerations. The transgendered
are welcome as citizens; the only requirement on them is that they
be truthful about their gender (like any other citizen) on official
documents.

> And yet we act so uncaringly towards others, although those others are
> fellow Nova Romans with many shared interests

We do act uncaringly. I've even seen our elected officials harassed,
called "bigots", and compared to Nazis, because a small handful of
persons is unsatisfied with a relatively minor decision they made a
full year ago.

> We are voting to cause problems for people who have done nothing
> wrong and want to come back, and to help the eager few push taxes
> onto a lot of people who would really prefer that Nova Roma remain
> less ambitions - and free.

Once again you lie. The taxes are not favored by a "few", but by a
substantial number of citizens, who advocate that Nova Roma become
a serious, respected organization, something more than just a handful
of mailing lists. Your contempt for the Senate and magistrates of
Nova Roma and your preference for the company of exiles is well-known,
so it is unsurprising that you seek to cripple the growth of this nation
and keep is in poverty.

Your claim that the tax proposal is the work of "a few" seeking to
push taxes onto "a lot" is absolute rot.

> There has been talk recently about "Concordia". And yet we only have
> laws being voted upon which trample on the vulnerable - [..]
> citizen who did not come here to pay taxes...

The intent of the tax law is not to "trample" on anyone; it is necessary
for the growth of Nova Roma. It makes ample provision for those who
cannot pay, who will still be allowed to remain citizens and to vote.
It is as liberal as the tax laws of any macronation, and considerably
more so than the membership dues policy of any significant private
organization, including such bastions of freedom as the ACLU and the EFF.

The intent of the other two laws is to demonstrate that the majority
of the people believe the Censors' edicts to be just and fair and to
prove once and for all that you do not speak for the majority. There was
no resason to vote on them otherwise; they were already in full effect
as Censors' edicts.

> If people want
> Concordia, let us start by protecting the weak, the common, the
> vulnerable, and turn back from the direction we are being led.
> Otherwise the Discordia of protest and criticism is inevitable.

In other words, you'll keep shouting until you get what you want. The
"discordia" is inevitable only because you insist on bringing it here.

- Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Fight the real oppressors (was Re: The Oligarchic Problem)
From:	"Jeroen Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 19:05:24 +0200

Salve Morcos Sontios (couldn't resist, sorry ;-)),

> Well said Consol - this has been given far too much web time - and
heavens -
> is this person a Citizen anyway !!!
>
> Marcos Sentius Claudius

Being a citizen or not doesn't "degrade" a person. His opinion is as valid
as yours and mine.

Vale bene!
Draco

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Subject:	[novaroma] Vendetta? What Vendetta?
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 19:20:41 +0200

Salvete Quirites,

Allow me a short comment on the issue "Cornelii vs Apollonii". I think that term would be a generalization; I would rather amend it to a sometimes heavy opposition between several characters who happen to come out of these respective gentes. Coincidental as it may be, gens Apollonia shares many ideological points of view, and I suspect the same counts for gens Cornelia. This caused members of both gentes to be on opposing sides of conflicts more than once -- thus, there is a difference that can't be denied.

However, even though I may not be in political or philosophical accord with some Cornelii, that doesn't mean that I do not respect them or even have friendly feelings towards some of them, such as Marcus Cornelius Scipio or Pompeia Cornelia Strabo. Since I have respect for the Cornelii, I respect the differences we have, and the differences we will most likely continue to have.

I would thus focus more on the individual people rather than the often artificial construct of a "gens". I'm free to have agreements and disagreements with both Cornelii and Apollonii, since, regardless of heritage, we all strive to be Romans.

Valete bene,
Sextus Apollonius Draco,
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
Darkling_Crawler, Yahoo IM

"Come, fly the teeth of the wind; share my wings" (FSOL)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Some Praise for Draco
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 19:20:57 +0200

Salve Decime Corneli,

> Talk about beating a dead horse. I wish someone in
> charge would step foward to tell Sulla that he's been
> bad and is getting a spanking for "not" approving the
> application, but is guilty for his associtaion with
> said applicant. Then give the self serving Draco a pat
> on the back for much ado about nothing. Or, just say
> were not going to persue this issue becuase it's a
> non-issue. Draco hasn't done anything for Nova Roma
> but cry to the General Public.

... And what have you done for Nova Roma?

> Posting this problem to
> the list is like shouting BS in crowded street. If you
> have a problem tell an official. This has just been a
> public anoyance. APOLLONIUS, LET IT DIE! take it to
> private with the proper officials.
>

Vale bene,
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Vendetta? What Vendetta?
From:	QFabiusMax@--------
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 14:48:07 EDT

In a message dated 5/21/2001 10:47:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
hendrik.meuleman@-------- writes:

<< I would thus focus more on the individual people rather than the often
artificial construct of a "gens". I'm free to have agreements and
disagreements with both Cornelii and Apollonii, since, regardless of
heritage, we all strive to be Romans. >>
Well, said, Apollonius Draco! However, in order to carry this out, you must
stop referring to
the Senate as oligarchs, as well as the Cornelii. Both you and your
voluminous Paterfamilias has a tendency to do this, to tar the organization
with the same bush as you tar a few individuals. In your case I would expect
it is your interpretation of the language. I speak German as it is my first
language, but I am no longer comfortable responding in it as I am English.
English is a complex rich language, and a grammatical mistake can alter the
entire meaning. We have all been "bit" on the "bottom" by doing this.
You may have the most brilliant argument in the world, but if you cannot
express yourself, it becomes quite useless.
That said, your paterfamilias, being an American speaks it quite well. So
usually I do not give him the same consideration for mistakes in the language
as I do you.
It is something to think about.
Since it has been stated by prominent members of both Gens there is no Gens
war between the Cornelii and the Apollonii, I think all the citizens can rest
easier.
Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem XII Kalendas Iunias (May 21)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Mon, 21 May 2001 21:09:26 +0100

Salvete omnes

This is a dies nefastus publicus (NP), a day for special religious
observance on which no legal action can take place.

Today is the Agonium of mensis Maius, dedicated to Vediovis. The Rex
Sacrorum
sacrifices a ram at the Regia.

Valete bene in pace deorum
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Fight the real oppressors (was Re: The Oligarchic Problem)
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Tue, 22 May 2001 09:51:29 +1000

Draco

This is our list - if the person is so interested in our Republic then they
should be a Citizen - it is not the forum for views of all and sundry - and
no !!! it is not as valid as yours and mine as he is not a citizen - period.

What an amazing comment !!!

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeroen Meuleman [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
Sent: Tuesday, 22 May 2001 3:05 Am
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Fight the real oppressors (was Re: The
Oligarchic Problem)

Salve Morcos Sontios (couldn't resist, sorry ;-)),

> Well said Consol - this has been given far too much web time - and
heavens -
> is this person a Citizen anyway !!!
>
> Marcos Sentius Claudius

Being a citizen or not doesn't "degrade" a person. His opinion is as valid
as yours and mine.

Vale bene!
Draco

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