Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Nova Roma Chat Room
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 01:36:33 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@c...> wrote:
> Salve Amuli Claudi,
>
> > Out of curiosity sake, why does Nova Roma not have a "real time"
chat room?
> > This type of java chat room could make communicating with other
civis easier
> > and MUCH more efficient then our current HTML chat room.
>
> We considered that, but client-side Java is not universally supported,
> and many implementations are unreliable. Yahoo has a java chat that
> we've used from time to time, but not everyone was able to use it.
>
> Vale, O.
>
> --
> M. Octavius Germanicus
> Propraetor, Lacus Magni
> Curator Araneum et Senator

Salvete,

There is an IRC client included in Basilica. It's called Dicto, and is
basically Mozilla's Chatzilla Client. Hopefully once I Complete
Basilica, Someone will set up some Nova Roma Chatrooms to take
advantage of this feature.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Word picture: Tell The Senate
From:	Bill Gawne <gawne@-------->
Date:	Sat, 26 May 2001 21:20:06 -0400

Prima Anncina Drusila dixit:

> oh you left a lump in my throat and a tear.. well done

Thank you. I'm pleased to know I was able to make the
vision so touching.

Gn. Equitius Marinus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Word picture: Tell The Senate
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 26 May 2001 19:51:45 -0700

Ave and welcome to Nova Roma! I really liked your statement it is very
moving, espeically since I just read it after seeing Pearl Harbor. An
Excellent movie I must say. I just posted a review on the Back Alley
List.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Bill Gawne wrote:
>
> Salve Romani,
>
> Today seems a fairly quiet day on the mailing list, so I shall delurk.
> I'm a new citizen, as of this past week. I'm also a retired US Marine
> Master Sergeant, and a few other things.
>
> I wrote this yesterday, inspired by the approach of the US Memorial
> Day on Monday. It calls up a vision that is both Roman and timeless.
> I know that Nova Roma spans the world, and many political pursuasions,
> I hope that the sentiment here reaches across them all.
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> Tell The Senate
>
> Far from the Tiber, on a windswept plain where the Sun shines dim
> and cold, there is a place that is forever Roman.
>
> Under the solemn watching mountain peaks, in a place where hostile
> wills once clashed in awful conflict, lies a quiet place where
> the survivors buried the mortal remains of their companions and
> their foes.
>
> Those whose bodies were pierced by steel, and who breathed
> their last as the battle raged around them.
>
> Those who were crushed beneath the awful engines of war.
>
> Those who burned in the fires, fighting as long as air remained
> for breath.
>
> Those who fell on their swords, rather than be taken captive.
>
> Those who, having survived the horrors of the day, died of wounds
> and blood loss in the night.
>
> Three granite slabs mark out the boundary of the hallowed ground,
> each carved deep by hands intent on making a message for the ages.
>
> On the first marker, Thucydides' words:
>
> "Having done what men should do, they suffered as men must."
>
> On the second marker, Simonedes:
>
> "Stranger passing by
> Tell the Senate where we lie.
> Obedient to their will."
>
> And on the last, simply:
>
> PACE TACET
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> The piece presented here is my original composition, though it
> draws heavily from a story I co-wrote two years ago. As such,
> I should acknowledge the inspiration of my friend Greg Baker,
> who introduced me to Colleen McCullough's books and provided
> much of the imagery which now reappears in my prose above,
> including the classical quotations.
>
> Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
>
>
>
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Making Youngsters into Voters
From:	Andrea Gladia Kyrinia <andrea_gladia@-------->
Date:	Sat, 26 May 2001 20:06:26 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete!

--- jmath669642reng@-------- wrote:
> Citizen Petrus;
> Wouldn't just be easier just to let these youngsters grow up up?

I honestly don't know of a single organization, national or
international, that is based in the US and lets anyone under 18 even
join an organization such as Nova Roma without parental permission at
the very least, if that.

IMO, those that are here and underage should count themselves fortunate
that they have the opportunity to learn so much at such a young age.
Had I learned all that I have learned in the past four or so years back
when I was much younger, I would have been blessed indeed for that I
would be that much farther on my path. Waiting a year or two to vote
is not a hardship. Being denied the chance to even be here would be.

Just my thoughts on the matter from someone who remembers a young 15
year old girl, struggling with trying to meet people on BBSs and
Fidonet who might have an inkling of neo-Paganism, let alone a
micronation founded on Roman values and culture.

Valete,

=====
Andrea Gladia Kyrinia
Apollinis Templi Sacerdos
Materfamilias of Gladia
*******************************************
Yahoo: kyreneariadne / andrea_gladia / andrea_m_berman
AIM: Kyrene Ariadne / la Amberman ICQ: 6663573
http://TempleApollo.faithweb.com/index.html

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Making Youngsters into Voters
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 04:02:57 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Andrea Gladia K--------ia <andrea_gladia@--------> wrote:
> Salvete!
>
> --- jmath669642reng@-------- --------e:
> > Citizen Petrus;
> > Wouldn't just be easier just to let these youngsters grow up up?
>
> I honestly don't know of a single organization, national or
> international, that is based in the US and lets anyone under 18 even
> join an organization such as Nova Roma without parental permission at
> the very least, if that.

I am not aware of anyone suggesting allowing minors to join Nova Roma
without Parental Permission, and in fact in the USA it would be
illegal to do so under COPA.

>
> IMO, those that are here and underage should count themselves fortunate
> that they have the opportunity to learn so much at such a young age.
> Had I learned all that I have learned in the past four or so years back
> when I was much younger, I would have been blessed indeed for that I
> would be that much farther on my path. Waiting a year or two to vote
> is not a hardship. Being denied the chance to even be here would be.

So we are going to just ignore Roman traditions regarding the age of
adulthood. According to our traditions, you become an Adult during the
year you turn 17, but Only with the approval of your Paterfamilis.
Actually I'm being more liberal than our ancesters. In Antiquita the
Pater could withold his permission untill a "child" was 30 if he so
desired. My proposal was you recive adult status with or without the
approval of the Pater/Mater at 18, But that you could also assume the
duties of an adult at the traditional age if the Pater/Mater agreed
you were ready.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Making Youngsters into Voters
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 26 May 2001 21:07:44 -0700

<Snip>

>
> So we are going to just ignore Roman traditions regarding the age of
> adulthood. According to our traditions, you become an Adult during the
> year you turn 17, but Only with the approval of your Paterfamilis.
> Actually I'm being more liberal than our ancesters. In Antiquita the
> Pater could withold his permission untill a "child" was 30 if he so
> desired. My proposal was you recive adult status with or without the
> approval of the Pater/Mater at 18, But that you could also assume the
> duties of an adult at the traditional age if the Pater/Mater agreed
> you were ready.

Ave,

I have a question, in any Roman Resource do we have any example where
this has happened?

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Making Youngsters into Voters
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 04:15:29 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@e...> wrote:
> <Snip>
>
> >
> > So we are going to just ignore Roman traditions regarding the age of
> > adulthood. According to our traditions, you become an Adult during the
> > year you turn 17, but Only with the approval of your Paterfamilis.
> > Actually I'm being more liberal than our ancesters. In Antiquita the
> > Pater could withold his permission untill a "child" was 30 if he so
> > desired. My proposal was you recive adult status with or without the
> > approval of the Pater/Mater at 18, But that you could also assume the
> > duties of an adult at the traditional age if the Pater/Mater agreed
> > you were ready.
>
> Ave,
>
> I have a question, in any Roman Resource do we have any example where
> this has happened?
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Salve,

An actual mention of thirty? No, but bear in mind that in Antiquita
the Paterfamilis' power over his family was unlimited, and included
the power to put a son or daughter to death if he so desired. Off the
top of my head I do recall that Tiberus refused to allow Giaus
(Caligulla) to don the white toga until he was 19, and he turned 20
shortly after that, so Giaus had his permission denied for 3 years,
and if a Pater could impose death then is it hard to beleave it could
postpone adulthood longer than 3 years?

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Making Youngsters into Voters
From:	Andrea Gladia Kyrinia <andrea_gladia@-------->
Date:	Sat, 26 May 2001 21:20:31 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete!

--- Lucius Sicinius Drusus <lsicinius@--------> wrote:
> > I honestly don't know of a single organization, national or
> > international, that is based in the US and lets anyone under 18
> even
> > join an organization such as Nova Roma without parental permission
> at the very least, if that.
> I am not aware of anyone suggesting allowing minors to join Nova Roma
> without Parental Permission, and in fact in the USA it would be
> illegal to do so under COPA.

Yes, and I am in agreement with you. That was not my point. My point
is that these young people are lucky to be here to begin with. I know
of some organizations that don't allow it, *period*--with or without
parental permission, and with rare exceptions.

> So we are going to just ignore Roman traditions regarding the age of
> adulthood.

How is requesting that they wait until 18 in order to vote ignoring
Roman traditions? Please explain... was there a different voting age
in classical Rome?

> According to our traditions, you become an Adult during
> the year you turn 17, but Only with the approval of your
Paterfamilis.
> Actually I'm being more liberal than our ancesters. In Antiquita the
> Pater could withold his permission untill a "child" was 30 if he so
> desired. My proposal was you recive adult status with or without the
> approval of the Pater/Mater at 18, But that you could also assume the
> duties of an adult at the traditional age if the Pater/Mater agreed
> you were ready.

Ok... now, how does this affect the current status of the "18 to vote"
idea? How would you see this as being implemented in Nova Roma?

Valete,

=====
Andrea Gladia Kyrinia
Apollinis Templi Sacerdos
Materfamilias of Gladia
*******************************************
Yahoo: kyreneariadne / andrea_gladia / andrea_m_berman
AIM: Kyrene Ariadne / la Amberman ICQ: 6663573
http://TempleApollo.faithweb.com/index.html

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Subject:	[novaroma] GLADIATOR--The NR Version, chap. 6 {very short}
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 00:23:59 EDT

Chapter 6 Quintus Fabius

Zucchabar, an inland city in Mauretania province, could have been
described as the worst hole in the universe by those who had to endure
visiting there. It was extremely hot, filthy, and dusty, and the only thing
uglier than the burnt-over landscape were the inhabitants. There was a small
arena outside the town, and a few delapitated brothels, which seemed to
visitors to be home to some of world's ugliest women. There was little for a
wealthier man to do in such a place, but drink. And so it was that day, as
Quintus Fabius sat nursing his glass in a tavern. He was big. He was tough.
He was skilled with the sword. And like everyone else here, he was in need
of a bath.
Puellarius had been been looking for him, and when he spied him in the
tavern, he ran over excitedly. "Quintus Fabius! Great Quintus Fabius! I
have a message....."
"The asses you sold me won't mate!", Fabius growled, interupting him. "They
just walk around eating, and not mating!"
"They do?", Puellarius asked innocently.
"Yes, yes they do. And do you know why they won't mate?"
"Uh, maybe they need to get to know each other better?"
Fabius reached out and grabbed the boy's crotch, and gave a hard twist.
"They won't mate because they are both females!"
"Oooowwwwwwwww!", was the only response he got.
"Don't you like male asses?", Fabius demanded.
"I love male asses!"
"I mean 'asses' as in donkeys, you silly twit! I paid you for one male and
one female. You have cheated me!"
"No!", Puellarius squealed, "But I DID send you a male!"
"Did not!"
"Did so! {sob} The one with black ears is a male!"
Fabius twisted harder. "The one with black ears is FEMALE! Do you think I
don't check my own livestock?"
"She's male!"
"Aha!", Fabius laughed triumphantly, "you said 'she'! So you admit she's
female!"
"No! His self-identity is male!"
"WHAT?!?!" Fabius let go his grip. "Woah! Slow down, back up, rewind!
Now....run that by me again?"
Puellarius heaved a sigh of blessed relief and relaxed a bit. "The donkey
with black ears has the physical traits of a female, but she, er, I mean he,
sees himself as a male!"
"You have GOT to be kidding me!" Quintus Fabius stared hard at him, speaking
slowly, making sure he heard all this correctly. "She is female, but sees
herself as a male?"
"No, not 'she'. HE!"
Quintus Fabius put his hand over his face shaking his head. "Gods, help me,
for I am in the company of a lunatic. I suppose she told this herself, eh?"
"We of the Amici Dignitatis do not impose societal gender ideology upon
transgendered livestock!", Puellarius replied defiantly. "It is the right of
every female to be a male if it wants to be! So, the brown eared one is the
female ass, the black eared one is the male ass."
"And you must be the dumb ass", Fabius sighed. "I want my money back."
"No way! This money now belongs to the people!"
Fabius' hand reached out and grabbed again.
"Aaaaaaaaawwwwoooooooollll! Ok, Ok! You win! I give! You can have your
money back!" Fabius took his hand away, and Puellarius hastily dropped some
money on the table. "Now", said Fabius, resuming his normal tone, "what
message did you have?"
Puellarius pushed the money to Fabius. "I was asked to tell you that your
new gladiators have arrived."
"Ah!", Fabius exclaimed. And then he quickly rose and exited.

The new arrivals, Flaccus and Tuba among them, stood in the courtyard of
Quintus Fabius' gladiator center as he addressed them. "I like you!", he
said with his gruff voice. "I want to be your friend! I want you to be my
friend! I want us all to be friends, together! Wouldn't that be nice?" The
gladiators were silent, and Fabius continued. "All I ask, is that you try to
get along with me." He looked down the row, trying to discern each man's
face, and he noticed Flaccus, staring hard back at him. Fabius approached
him and stared right back. "And where are you from, slave?", he asked
derisively.
"Dalmatia".
"I get the feeling you don't like me, Dalmatian!", Fabius said. "I get the
feeling you want to strike me! Well slave, this is the only chance you will
ever get. Strike me!" Flaccus tensed, but restrained himself.
"What's the matter, slave? Are you afraid to try? Are you chicken? Yes,
that must be it. You are chicken, aren't you Dalmatian?" And with that,
Fabius began flapping his arms and cuckling like a bird. "Bahck bahck bachk
BAAAHHCK!"
Flaccus wanted to punch him in the face, but he glanced quickly around the
compound at the guards, and Fabius saw it. "Ah, you noticed the armed guards!
Good. You are not as stupid as I thought. Perhaps you are even
intelligent! But I say you are still a chicken! Try to hit me, slave! My
guards will not harm you. Hit me! Try to hit me, you prissy little Dalmatian
school girl! TRY IT!"
And immediately, Flaccus thrust his head forward and bopped Fabius in the
face with a THWACK! Fabius spn around, staggered, saw stars...."Nice try!
Ok boys, take five! Smoke em if you got em!" And thud! He was passed out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Making Youngsters into Voters
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 04:42:56 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Andrea Gladia K--------ia <andrea_gladia@--------> wrote:
> Salvete!
>
> --- Lucius Sicinius Drusus <lsicinius@--------> wrote:
> > > I honestly don't know of a single organization, national or
> > > international, that is based in the US and lets anyone under 18
> > even
> > > join an organization such as Nova Roma without parental permission
> > at the very least, if that.
> > I am not aware of anyone suggesting allowing minors to join Nova Roma
> > without Parental Permission, and in fact in the USA it would be
> > illegal to do so under COPA.
>
> Yes, and I am in agreement with you. That was not my point. My point
> is that these young people are lucky to be here to begin with. I know
> of some organizations that don't allow it, *period*--with or without
> parental permission, and with rare exceptions.
>
> > So we are going to just ignore Roman traditions regarding the age of
> > adulthood.
>
> How is requesting that they wait until 18 in order to vote ignoring
> Roman traditions? Please explain... was there a different voting age
> in classical Rome?
>
> > According to our traditions, you become an Adult during
> > the year you turn 17, but Only with the approval of your
> Paterfamilis.
> > Actually I'm being more liberal than our ancesters. In Antiquita the
> > Pater could withold his permission untill a "child" was 30 if he so
> > desired. My proposal was you recive adult status with or without the
> > approval of the Pater/Mater at 18, But that you could also assume the
> > duties of an adult at the traditional age if the Pater/Mater agreed
> > you were ready.
>
> Ok... now, how does this affect the current status of the "18 to vote"
> idea? How would you see this as being implemented in Nova Roma?
>

In Roma you became an adult on March 17 of the year you were going to
turn 17. If you were born between Jan 1 and Mar 17, then the age would
be 17. If you were born between Mar 18 and Dec 31, then the age would
be 16. This was the traditional age, but it was up to the Pater if you
could assume the white Toga. This included the right to vote and the
duty to serve in the Legions for Boys. Girls became an adult earlier
if they wed, but that early a marriage was frowned apon.

For Nova Roma I purpose that we follow this tradition, that a child
citizen COULD assume the duties of adulthood including the vote, if
thier Pater/Mater felt they were ready on Mar 17, in the year they
will turn 17. If we did this next year, that would be children born in
1985. The Pater/Mater would have to notify the Censors that they were
going to allow thier child to become an adult prior to the 17th.
Without this permission the child would have to wait untill the
following year. As A Materfamilis it would be up to you to decide if a
member of your Gens was ready to accept the duties of adulthood at 17.
You should know them well enough to make this decession.

I have also proposed that adulthood would began at 18, if the
Pater/Mater withheld permission to assume the duties earlier, and that
the Macro National Parent (If they weren't also the
Pater/Materfamilis) would have to give an additional permission to
assume the duties of adulthood in addition to the permission to join)

L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Youth in Nova Roma, Solution?
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 00:53:28 EDT

And who will make the test that those over 18 will have to take?

If voting is open only to citizens who can pass a test, then surely you
don't expect to get away with testing only citizens under 18?

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

On 5/26/01 1:28 PM Amulius Claudius Petrus (pkkt@--------) wrote:

>
>> A. Cato wrote:
>>
>> Response: A test such as this would certainly test one's knowledge of
Roman
>> History, our Nova Roma Constitution, Religion etc.
>> But knowledge, although a component of wisdom, is not in itself wisdom. How
>> you would test wisdom, I am not sure. I could see eighteen year olds having
>> the vote. But I, and and I believe a great many others, would resist
thirteen
>> to sixteen year olds voting, for reasons already stated previously.
>
>
>Cato, the theory is that letting a child vote once he has proven himself to
>be intelligent, will build wisdom. Letting a minor take part in our politics
>even in a small way such as their vote counting for less then the adult vote
>should mould the already proven knowledge into a passable form of wisdom.
>
>
>
>> I believe that this could be taken to a ridiculous level. If we are
willing
>to
>> lower the voting age to, say, fifteen, because a great many fifteen year
olds
>> are smart, then why not lower the voting age down to let's say, ten? I
know
a
>> few ten year olds that are really smart. You can see where this could lead.
>> How about eight year olds, as long as they are really smart of course. You
>can
>> see how ridiculous it can get.
>
>
>But you see, the test would prevent 99% of 10 year olds from passing. Though
>even if the child is a genius at 10 and passes our test, did he not earn the
>privilege and could make a active contribution politically to our nation?
>
>
>Hinc est mei oratio!
>
>--
>Amulius Claudius Petrus
>Civis Canada Orientalis
>

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Macronational relationships
From:	bcatfd@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 05:27:47 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@t...> wrote:

&g--------ca---------------- wro--------/fon--------r> > > There is not going to be an eventual confrontation with
>>the "outside" world. We *are* the outside world and Nova Roma as
>>well. Such talk, while it has popped up from time to time on this
>>list over the years, is not beneficial to Nova Roma and is contrary
>>to our goals.
> >
> > I refer you to the Declaration of Nova Roma,
> > http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/declaration_novaroma.html for
>>more on this topic.
>
> Salve, Iuni Palladi.

Salve. D. Iunius Palladius T. Octavio SPD. SVBEEV.

>
> Checked it out:
>
> "We, the Senate and People of New Rome, in order to restore the
> foundations of Western Civilization, declare the founding of Nova
>Roma as a soverign Nation. We manifest Nova Roma as an independent
>world nation and republic, with its own legal constitution and lawful
> government, with all international rights and responsibilities that
>such status carries. "

> That what you were talking about?

Yes, that is exactly what I was talking about, thank you. Nova Roma
was declared as a sovereign nation, not a sovereign state. A nation,
in its purest sense, is a group of people bound together by a common
culture, history and language. In our case we can say it is a common
Roman history and culture, though perhaps not quite a common
language. A state is a physical entity in sole possession of
territory and having the near exclusive right of force within its
boundaries. We are a nation, Nova Roma will never be a true state
unless it is akin to the Vatican, or more appropriately for
comparative purposes, the Knights of Malta. The Knights of Malta are
a sovereign nation with a small international capital (smaller even
that the Vatican) with their citizens spread throughout the world.
That is in my view what we are striving for in the long run.

>Nah, I get your point. Though I must agree that "going
>macronational" wasn't the original intention of those
> founding Nova Roma, in my (admittedly short) time here, I've gotten
>the feeling that there is an established interest in eventually
>starting an actual Nova Roman macronation. And if the majority ever
>supports this,and the opportunity arises, we will have that
>confontation.

I think you greatly exaggerate the seriousness of any such interest.
It sounds like you are saying that someday we are going to just claim
a chunk of some macronation, declare we secede from that nation and
then say to the world, "come and get us." Not going to happen. We
will never have those kind of resources, and besides, even if we did,
the primary loyalty and duty of each Nova Roman is to his macronation
first, as it should be, and that would prevent any such silliness as
that. Nova Roma's primary purpose in planning on a physical center is
to build temples and provide a focal point for the Religio Romana,
not to create some kind of homeland for Nova Romans. Let me quote
more from the Declaration (with my emphasis added):

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"We recognize the modern political realities which make the
restoration of such ancient lands to us impossible. Therefore we
*limit* our active territorial claim to an amount of land at least
equal to that held by the sovereign state of Vatican City; 108
contiguous acres. On this land a world capital for the *admistration
of our culture* will be founded in the form of a Forum Romanum. The
exact site for this New Roman governmental and spiritual capital is
to be determined.

"Further, in order that our world presence may be established, Nova
Roma claims our physical territory to be extant and
manifest through those places that our State, Citizens, and religious
organizations may physically own, occupy, and maintain
throughout the world. These territories shall exist in a status of
*Dual Sovereignity,* being under the cultural and spiritual
administration of Nova Roma, even as they *remain under the civil
dominion and laws of other hosting nations.* Our pledge is to
embody a *benign and beneficial cultural and spiritual influence*
throughout all societies, while remaining politically neutral and
*lawful* in action."
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Any confrontation you mention would be contrary to NR's goals and
hardly be a benign and beneficial influence. While I find a martyr
complex amusing in a Nova Roman setting (preparing for that future
imaginary confrontation) I think it a bit out of place and
distracting. Even the 108 acre spritual capital is decades away and a
barely conceivable goal right now. We will be fortunate to get *any*
land in the next 5-10 years for any Nova Roman purpose. Our greatest
enemies are not external but rather a lack of resources, general
apathy and a small and widely scattered citizenry.

>Until then, rules which unite us into a common micronation, instead
>of dividing us by our macronational borders, is surely in our best
>interest.

Our laws do bind us together while recognizing the physical and
political realities of the world we live in at the same time. The
fact that we can work around those realities is one of our strengths.

> Thanks for the information, it's always interesting to hear
>another's view on a subject.

Thank you for your enthusiasm. I would rather hear of your optimism
for Nova Roma's future than to hear citizens asking why we would ever
want to move beyond the internet.

On a related note, I was looking over some old posts on the list last
night. This very same subject (Nova Roma possessing land) came up in
the first couple hundred or so posts (from post 99-300+, I believe
under the topic of In Dreamland. If you are interested go take a
look. It was stimulating reading then and now and I am glad to see
the idea of a spiritual capital for Nova Roma is strong among new
citizens also.

Vale,

D. Iunius Palladius Inv.
Senator

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Subject:	[novaroma] New Britannnia list
From:	Odysseus49@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 05:43:52 -0000

Salvete omnes,

I would like to invite everyone, especially cives of Britannia, to
the new Provincia Britannia list, so we can re-start communication
between us.

To subscribe, send a blank email to:
BritanniaProvincia-subscribe@--------

To go the web page, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BritanniaProvincia

Hope to see you there!

Valete,
Titus Sertorius Albinus.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Macronational relationships
From:	bcatfd@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 05:51:51 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@t...> wrote:
> That what you were talking about? Nah, I get your point. Though I
>must agree that "going macronational" wasn't the original intention
>of those founding Nova Roma, in my (admittedly short) time here,
>I've gotten the feeling that there is an established interest in
>eventually starting an actual Nova Roman macronation. And if the
>majority ever supports this, and the opportunity arises, we will
>have that confontation. Until then, rules which unite us into a
>common micronation, instead of dividing us by our macronational
>borders, is surely in our best interest.
>
> Thanks for the information, it's always interesting to hear
another's
> view on a subject.

One other bit of info from the website is the following, that speaks
to any idea of "confrontation" and such. It is from the Collis
Capitolinus/Cursus Honorum page (again, my emphasis added):

"In declaring ourselves to be a sovereign nation, we have taken a
bold step, but hardly one that is without precedent. The concept
of "model nations" or "micronations" is one that has grown
significantly in recent decades, and it is in that spirit that our
sovereignty is proclaimed. Even though we do make modest territorial
claims in "the real world", and are completely serious in
making them, we have also established, as one of our most basic
tenets in this regard, that we wish to achieve these goals
peacefully and consensually, and:

*1.We will never, ever, under any circumstances, resort to or
condone the use of force, coercion, or intimidation of any sort
to achieve our territorial goals.*

2.We will *always* respect the spirit and letter of the laws of
the countries of which we are citizens and in which we reside.

In other words, we have *zero* interest in following the path set by
the "Freemen" of Montana and other groups, and we will *not
tolerate* attempts to push us in that direction. We will either
purchase our territories legally or have them given to us freely by
those who see the righteousness of our cause. Until then we are
content to function as a "government in exile"."

Vale,

D. Iunius Palladius

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Subject:	[novaroma] To the censors
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 16:30:27 +1000 (EST)

Ave honored censors,

I have been trying to contact you for some months now
about an error on my page, and have recieved no
response yet to any of the posts I have made. I was
wondering whether either of the censors could contact
me when possible.

Valete bene,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

Legatus Australia Medius
Sacerdos Mars Invictus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] To the censors
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 26 May 2001 23:35:51 -0700

Ave,

I have not received any notification. You do have my private email
address. You could have always emailed me.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Jerry Anguston wrote:
>
> Ave honored censors,
>
> I have been trying to contact you for some months now
> about an error on my page, and have recieved no
> response yet to any of the posts I have made. I was
> wondering whether either of the censors could contact
> me when possible.
>
> Valete bene,
>
> Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura
>
> Legatus Australia Medius
> Sacerdos Mars Invictus
>
> _____________________________________________________________________________
> http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
> - Voice chat, mail alerts, stock quotes and favourite news and lots more!
>
>
>
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Subject:	[novaroma] My resignation
From:	<bekaert.stefaan@-------->
Date:	Sat, 26 May 2001 20:15:30 +0200

Salvete,
The name Lucius Apollonius Aquila probably doesn't ring many bells, but I have been a member of Nova Roma for several months now. As I have a rather busy life I found it better for myself and Nova Roma that I would not get involved into the politics of Nova Roma too much. I have been following the main list however and know pretty well how Nova Roma functions,...or should I say, tries to function? Anyway, I'm not expecting a lot of people to miss me (actually, it would surprise me if anyone did :-), but Nova Roma as a society should know that they are scaring people away by voting leges such as the ones recently voted for. I can imagine that most of those who read this aren't very impressed hearing this from someone that hardly hasn't had any political ambitions in Nova Roma, but this means two things :

1) Politics are becoming (if they aren't allready) the main issue at Nova Roma
2) People who do not want to get involved into politics (for what ever reason) are being scared away by it.

When I first got here, I thought Nova Roma could be a great society, but having doubted it several times before but upholding my hopes then, this time I've lost my hopes completely. As of this moment I do not feel nor do I consider myself a member of Nova Roma anymore and therefor I must resign.

Valete
Lucius Apollonius Aquila

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
- Hamlet -

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] My resignation
From:	"Sokarus Apollonius Callias" <hadescallias@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 09:10:26 -0000

What are you looking for in Nova Roma. There is also an Nova Roma Europe
emaillist as one for religion at Nova Roma. these are one of the many
organisations you can find at Nova Roma. if one interest you, you can ask it
in the list if their is an Nova Roma list capatible with your interest.
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Subject:	[novaroma] Resignation
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 11:51:28 +0200

Salvete, Citizens of New Rome,

This will most likely be one of the last times that I'm addressing you. Today, I am resigning. By this action I give up my position as scriba to Aedilis Maior, as legatus and scriba to my propraetor Lutecio, as Lupercus Fabianus, and as Coryphaeus and Musaeus of two collegia in the Sodalitas Musarum. I will also terminate the philosophy list, the dignitas forum and the iuventas list, and turn over moderation of the Gallia lists to my frater Tiberius. It was a tough decision to make, but in the end I always came to the same conclusion: a place like Nova Roma, that is at many times so different from my own moral and philosophical standards, isn't right for me, and would only be a source of frustration for me, and a source of irritation for my inevitable opponents.

Instead of hurling boulders at my opponents for the last time, I would instead like to commend those people whose company I highly appreciated and deeply respect as examples of Romanitas.

-- Marcus Octavius Germanicus: despite the fact that we have always more or less been in "opposing camps", I respect your honesty, integrity and most of all your hard work for Nova Roma; plus, you are able to disconnect political tendencies from personalities.

-- Iasonus Serenus Carolus: your philosophical wisdom and sense of concord, whilst maintaining your own strong viewpoints, never ceased to amaze me, and give me hope and inspiration.

-- Titus Labienus Fortunatus: I highly enjoyed debating philosophical questions and issues with you, and many times I had to recognize my superior in you (a tough thing to do for someone with an inflated ego like me :-D); yet you always manage to come across modestly and moderated, an embodiment of the stoic spirit and the Roman virtues.

-- Oppius Flaccus Severus: despite our bad relations at the end, I admire your natural virtue of industria, your ability to diplomatically retract from a debate when things get unproductive, and last but not least your tremendous engagement in Nova Roma.

-- Pompeia Cornelia Strabo: wherever present, you've been kind of the unofficial list moderator at its best: a person everyone listens to with respect, and has the good sense of retaining calm when it is needed the most.

-- the Amici Dignitatis: even though we had our own conflicts and quarrels, we've always been sort of warbuddies with a common goal, and were always pushed back in the same trenches; had we met in different circumstances, we might not have become "amici" ;-).

-- gens Apollonia: I've never been an avid fan of family roleplaying, but I must say that my gens has always been some sort of refuge for me, and I will miss it.

-- and countless others who are shining examples of Romanitas: Gnaeus Salix Astur, Titus Octavius Pius, Gaius Marcius Coriolanus, Alexander I.C. Probus Macedonius, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, Manius Villius Limitanus, Marcus Arminius Maior, Lucius Tiberius Sardonicus, Adrianus Arius Acadianus Draco, Domna Claudia Auspicata, Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, Michael the Erronous, Gaius Bruttius Sentius Sura, Lucilla Cornelia Cinna, Marcus Cornelius Scipio, Lucius Pompeius Octavianus, Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus, Lucius Sicinius Drusus, Patricia Cassia, Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator, and many others I'll have surely forgotten.

For the people above, I'm truly sorry to leave, and I offer them my apologies, with hopes of remaining in contact with them. As for the rest of Nova Roma: fare well. I hope you'll accomplish your goals, whatever those may be.

Valete bene,
Sextus Apollonius Draco

aka

Jeroen Meuleman

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Subject:	[novaroma] NOVA ROMA: Capita Futura
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 11:51:59 +0200

Salvete;

If anyone wishes to complete the Nova Roma Mars novel I had started, he or she may do so by simply asking for my approval privately. As for the rest of the storyline, here goes...

Caput XVI
---------------

The wandering soldiers, Oppius, Peregrinus, Sertorius and Draco, are caught by the Martianalists Maximius and Quintilianus. Upon their arrival at their home caves, they meet Aeternia there as a captive, and have a formal meeting with the leader of the Martianalists, Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator.

Caput XVII
----------------

Diocletianus interrogates Festus on the murders. Festus says he was sent by Earth to kill key figures in the NR government to weaken Mars and instigate so much paranoia, that Earth could gradually begin a takeover. He killed Cassius by impersonating his son Gaius Cassius Nerva, and later killed Piscinus from behind whilst he was taking a walk in the park. He'd let the other murders do by his underworld contacts, who in turn were then thanked for their services by killing them. Diocletianus then asks why the Martianalists where chasing him.

Caput XVIII
-----------------

At the Martianalist Caves, Venator explains the lost soldiers the meaning of their trip. The Martianalists knew all along that Earth was getting involved in Mars' politics, but wanted to wait for a full-scaled invasion once the terraformation project would be set up. However, since a global invasion would cause too much protest on Earth itself, plus, the campaign would most likely destroy the frail terraformation programme, they got help from a mysterious alien ally. Eons ago those aliens had a small outpost on Mars, but due to the technological, cultural and military decline of their race they sought to retreat to Mars once again. Small groups of agents swerved on the planet, and the first to spot them were the Martianalists, an originally religiously inclined group that believed in the spiritual entity of the planet. Through surviving with only few resources, and focusing on meditation and discipline, many Martianalists became preternaturally gifted. So, even though the aliens were technologically superior, the Martianalists had the advantage of their minds. When it became appearent the aliens -- the Arg -- were about to lose, they made contact with Earth, who had since long been leering at Mars.

Caput XIX
---------------

Festus withdraws his earlier confessions, and says that he was actually acting at the behest of Consul Vedius. Diocletianus doesn't believe him, but the information leaks through an unreliable officer, and riots engulf Nova Roma. Some patricians flee the city, and in the midst of that chaos, masses of people demand the resignation of Vedius. Latter resigns, and a new election among the people appoints Octavius and Australicus as the new Consular pair. The panic continues to rage on however, as Earth declares war upon the Martian Republic of Nova Roma. In a historical speech Censor and Flamen Martialis Cincinnatus then manages to calm down the people, who, at his call, join the army en masse. Others seek spiritual refuge in temples, or smaller communities far away from the capital itself.

Caput XX
--------------

Meanwhile in the Martianalist Caves, the story goes on. Venator says that the Arg and Earth had agreed to send a specialized assassin to destabilize the Nova Roman government; their "weapon of choice" was Festus, not only a notorious satirist, but also a former military, who rose to almost be the equal of Audens, until he was forced to resign because of a gladiator scandal. He then went in voluntarily exile, but remained a Roman at heart. He made a lot of contacts with the Lunar and Earth underworld, and was thusly enlisted by the Arg to do their bidding. His reward would be to be governor of the Earth's part of Mars (the Arg and the Earth would divide the Martian territories among themselves). Meanwhile, no government official was really convinced of a possibility of an invasion from Earth -- safe for an occasional spy, there were no irregularities in their contacts. However, the army began to suspect certain things, and although it was mostly due to their own paranoia, they hit the nail on its head. Secretly, a covert operations began to begin building terrible defence mechanisms against an Earth invasion. But they, and some magistrates, also mistook Martianalists for Earth's agents (Martianalists destroyed terraformation bases to stall the Arg invasion, not to prevent Nova Roma from prospering). That's what began the conflict between Martianalists and the army. In a final stage, Audens issued a small mission that was to negotiate with the Martianalists, but they were shot out of the sky by the invisible Arg, probably at a sign of the traitor Ronanus, who was in turn killed himself by the Martianalists.

Caput XXI
---------------

After a long and heated debate in the Senatus, the newly elected Consules declare war upon Earth in turn, and order the military tribunes to set up a defence plan. A second war declaration against the Martianalists is interceded by the suddenly returned Fortunatus, the tribunus sine collega. However, latter is arrested for a false charge, and put in prison, so the military apparatus can still fight against the hated Martianalists. Octavius and Praetor Diocletianus try to stop them, but to no avail.

Caput XXI
---------------

Venator gathers the Martianalists, and offers Oppius, Marius, Draco and Sertorius the choice to stay or to leave as they please. After some debate, they decide to leave, and take Aeternia with them. Upon returning they run into Legio III of Olympus Mons, which had been given orders to seek and destroy the Martianalist caves. They manage to convince them that their true enemy is Earth, and that they'd better fight alongside the Martianalists against the Arg and the Earth troops. Sertorius then uses the legion's com radio to call Olympus Mons for assistance.

Caput XXII
----------------

Earth begins its invasion on Mars, and while the space legiones are busy defending themselves quite succesfully, Arg troops land on Mars or emerge from their caves. A spontaneous mutiny erupts under the ground troops, which gather under the command of Oppius and Sertorius, against the Arg. In battle with the half-mechanical Arg, Draco has a shocking encounter with his old friend Curio, who was found by the Arg and turned into a cyborg. Draco manages to restore his sanity, and Curio turns on his rulers. Aided by the special telekinetical troops of Venator, the Arg are slaughtered. Meanwhile, Earth ships start penetrating the Martian defences and land in the north. The victory at the Martianalist Caves was only a small loss for the Arg, who continue to rise from the south towards Nova Roma itself. The land army and the Martianalists, that renamed themselves as the RLF (Roman Liberation Front) are pushed back to the borders of the eternal city, as is the "official" army that didn't partake in the mutiny on the northern border.

Caput XXIII
----------------

The situation is hectic. In the north, landed Earth troops occupy each town systematecally and eradicate any form of resistance. The Martian army, under the command of Theodorus Tiberius, a formidable swordsman who learnt his craft from Ronanus, is slowly collapsing in their trenches. In the sky, the Martian fleet can do little but watch helplessly as more holes are being made in their defences by both Earth and Arg ships. In the south, the Arg and the RLF are entangled in a vicious conflict. Nova Roma itself is, of course, in turmoil. Festus escapes from prison, as does Fortunatus. Together with Diocletianus, the tribune joins the RLF, recognizing it as the official Martian army. When the fighting shifts to the city itself, prominent personalities like Formosanus and Sulla are slaughtered by Earth troops. Australicus goes insane, and kills Octavius, to elevate Vedius to the position of Consul again. They recognize the old Martian army, led by Theodorus, as the official army, and when the RLF becomes pushed back into the city, these two armies begin to fight among themselves as well. In the midst of all of this, only the temples of Mars and Venus remain free of violence, and are miraculously not attacked by any faction.

Caput XXIV
-----------------

The situation suddenly changes when the Arg betray Earth, sending their former spy, Festus, as a corpse to the Human generals. During this involuntarily armistice, the RLF and the Martian army agree on a deal. Fortunatus and Theodorus will fight a gladiatorial combat to decide which army will be the official Roman one. Fortunatus eventually emerges victorious, slaying Theodorus. In a fit of insanity, Australicus poisons Vedius, and has himself crowned emperor by a few faithfuls. A last, and small opposition by Cincinnatus is also violently struck down by Australicus. Despite Fortunatus' victory, large parts of the Martian army refuse to recognize the victory and side with Australicus.

Caput XV
---------------

Earth decides to strike back at the Arg rather than the scattered Romans, and nukes their mothership. Shortly thereafter, the Arg become defeated, more by confusion and good luck rather than decent strategy. Australicus then decides to attack the Earth troops in their backs, and, by having the remaining ships of the Martian fleet hold the Earth's mothership "hostage", Earth is forced to retreat from the Roman Republic.

Caput XVI
---------------

Negotiations between the RLF and Australicus fail. Marius and Draco are arrested under suspicion of high treason, and accidentally Aeternia is arrested, too, being accused of spying for the Martianalists in Sulla's dominions. During the subsequent fights, Oppius and Sertorius are slain. Venator and Fortunatus lead the remaining part of the RLF back to the Martianalist caves, away from the emperor, who turned the Respublica Romana-Martialis into the Imperium Romanum. In the early morning, while people have begun rebuilding Nova Roma, Marius, Draco and Aeternia are sentenced to death by hanging. The cyborg Curio remains as a sole survivor and witness of the tragedy, all day long, until the sun sets over the red surfaces of Mars.

**--**

Valete!
Sextus Apollonius Draco,
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
Darkling_Crawler, Yahoo IM

"Come, fly the teeth of the wind;
share my wings" (FSOL)

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Subject:	[novaroma] Nerva's Departure
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 07:06:30 EDT

Salvete,

After much soul searching and much thought, I have realized that one
cannot always do what one would like within the the confines that are Nova
Roma. And so, reluctant as I am to do this to my Paterfamilias Cassius,
Patricia Cassia, my friends Sulla, Flaccus, Sertorius, Iulia Cassia,and
others, I am afraid I have to go away on an overnight trip to Pennsylvania.

It is not as if I have not tried. I sought compromise, some way that I
could accomodate both NR and PA. But the fact remains, that I can't afford a
laptop which would allow me to go to PA with NR.

This descision is irrevocable. If any desire to email me, or to talk me
out of this course of action, I am sorry, but I will not see or answer those
entreaties.

Until Monday, you will not hear from me again.

Please forgive me and judge me with mercy.

Gaius Cassius Nerva

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Resignation
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 08:12:25 -0400

Salve Sexte Apolloni: I will be sorry to see you leave my friend. And I say "my friend", because although we have had a few disagreements, I believe that we disagreed as friends, not enemies. I have always had great respect for your intelligence and talents, and those qualities will be sorely missed in Nova Roma. I hope you reconsider your resignation, Sexti Apolloni. For you to list me among those who are "shining examples of Romanitas" is an honor for which I hope I am worthy. I wish you all the best in whatever road you take in life. May the Gods and Goddesses watch over you and give you guidance.
Ave atque vale, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, ... Rogator

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] My resignation
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 05:12:33 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes; et salve, Luci Apolloni Aquila.

--- bekaert.stefaan@-------- wrote:

<<snipped>>

> Anyway, I'm not expecting a lot of people to miss me (actually, it
> would surprise me if anyone did :-),

I would miss any citizen that decides to leave, and I will certainly
miss you, first as a fellow citizen, and then as a fellow European.

> but Nova Roma as a society
> should know that they are scaring people away by voting leges such as
> the ones recently voted for.

Alas, I guess this are some of the flaws of democracy. Never can
everyone be content. However, if you don't agree with the recent leges,
remember that laws can be altered in the future through democratic
means.

<<snipped>>

> 1) Politics are becoming (if they aren't allready) the main issue at
> Nova Roma

I agree. However, there are other activities, like the Religio, the
Legions, the Musae, and others. If you do reconsider your resignation,
you could try to concentrate on those other activities, so that
politics is NOT the main issue at Nova Roma.

> 2) People who do not want to get involved into politics (for what
> ever reason) are being scared away by it.

Now, I guess the main problem with that would be a problem of
communication. I have noticed that a new citizen needs a few weeks to
discover superficially the various activities in which Nova Roma is
involved. I have always mantained that our web site and our information
system for new citizens should be the subject of a deep redesign.

>
> When I first got here, I thought Nova Roma could be a great society,
> but having doubted it several times before but upholding my hopes
> then, this time I've lost my hopes completely. As of this moment I do
> not feel nor do I consider myself a member of Nova Roma anymore and
> therefor I must resign.

I hope you reconsider your decision, and finally decide to stay with
us. There's much to do in Nova Roma besides politics.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] My resignation
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 08:26:23 -0400

Salve Luci Apolloni: I am sorry to see you leave. All I can say is, there
is no nation or society on earth that can make everyone happy or satisfied.
It is not possible to do, except in fantasy. The idea is to do the best that
we are able to do, and try to be satisfied with that. We must learn to live
with with laws and things that we may not like, or try to change them
peacefully. (Unless of course we have a mad totalitarian dictator that we
must overthrow with force. I pray to the Gods that will never happen.)
I am sorry that you feel you must leave. I wish you well.
Ave atque vale, ... A. Cato, ... Rogator.
----- Original Message -----
From: <bekaert.stefaan@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 2:15 PM
Subject: [novaroma] My resignation

> Salvete,
> The name Lucius Apollonius Aquila probably doesn't ring many bells, but I
have been a member of Nova Roma for several months now. As I have a rather
busy life I found it better for myself and Nova Roma that I would not get
involved into the politics of Nova Roma too much. I have been following the
main list however and know pretty well how Nova Roma functions,...or should
I say, tries to function? Anyway, I'm not expecting a lot of people to miss
me (actually, it would surprise me if anyone did :-), but Nova Roma as a
society should know that they are scaring people away by voting leges such
as the ones recently voted for. I can imagine that most of those who read
this aren't very impressed hearing this from someone that hardly hasn't had
any political ambitions in Nova Roma, but this means two things :
>
> 1) Politics are becoming (if they aren't allready) the main issue at Nova
Roma
> 2) People who do not want to get involved into politics (for what ever
reason) are being scared away by it.
>
> When I first got here, I thought Nova Roma could be a great society, but
having doubted it several times before but upholding my hopes then, this
time I've lost my hopes completely. As of this moment I do not feel nor do I
consider myself a member of Nova Roma anymore and therefor I must resign.
>
> Valete
> Lucius Apollonius Aquila
>
> "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy.
> - Hamlet -
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Redesign
From:	domusludus@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 12:42:29 -0000

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>
> Now, I guess the main problem with that would be a problem of
> communication. I have noticed that a new citizen needs a few weeks
> to discover superficially the various activities in which Nova Roma
> is involved. I have always mantained that our web site and our
> information system for new citizens should be the subject of a deep
> redesign.

I beling to another group of PGP users who have found themselves with
several "spin-off" groups. Their answer was to put these groups into
a welcome email so that anyone joining the group would see this email
first thing. They also occassionally send the email out just to
remind people, especially when the talk gets "off topic".

Perhaps this is the solution for this mailing list. There is, if
memory serves, a place where you can have messages sent to the list
on a regular basis -- once a month, once every couple of weeks,
whatever. Send a list of all the "official" lists to this main list
from time to time.

Even *I* must admit that it is difficult to *not* find something of
interest within Nova Roma. The "main list" gets very political, but
I think there actually *is* a list for that somewhere, or perhaps
that is my hope speaking <G>.

Pax,
Seia Silvania Atia

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Subject:	[novaroma] An idea to avoid resignations
From:	domusludus@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 12:44:38 -0000


Subject:	[novaroma] Many Blood Sucking Insects
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 14:09:29 -0000

Salvete Quirites,

The Subject is a joke definiation of the word Politics that I've heard
many times, the first from Congressman Bob Barr When he was running
for the Senate.

Yes Politics has a habit of dominating the mainlist. There are several
reasons for this. The first is this is the only forum where Politicans
can reach ALL the citizens with a single post. Another is the number
of Comitia meetings we have, a problem that is partialy caused by the
resignations of elected officals. The idea of Senatorial Appointments
to fill vacancies for the lesser offices would help cut down on these
meetings, and clear some of the Politics off the list.

Please bear in mind that we have just voted on three Leges that were
contraversial, one of which has been causing friction for a year, and
a large number of posts was to be expected on these Leges.

However Civies who have intrests other than Politics have to take some
of the Blame for the problem too. Nothing is stoping you from making a
post on the Religio, or an historic event that may have occured on
this date. If you are intrested in Philosphy No one is stopping you
from making a post about it. If you want a conversation about Non
Policital subjects, then don't just lurk in the crowd waiting for
someone else to bring it up. Boldly stride up the virtual steps to the
Rostra and bring speak your mind.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] My resignation
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 16:50:16 +0200

>Salvete,
>
>When I first got here, I thought Nova Roma could be a great society, but
>having doubted it several times before but upholding my hopes then, this
>time I've lost my hopes completely. As of this moment I do not feel nor do
>I consider myself a member of Nova Roma anymore and therefor I must resign.
>
>Valete
>Lucius Apollonius Aquila

Salve Honorable Lucius Apollonius Aquila!

You are right, I don't know You, but each citizen that leave us gives me a
feeling of sadness, the Res Publica has failed again. It would give me
great joy if You would reconsider. I have been here for about nine months
and I think that time is too short to really evaluate the accomplishments
of this micronation. Please Honorable Lucius Apollonius Aquila reconsider
your resignation!

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://www.acc.umu.se/~kerish/novaroma/main.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
Using a keyboard that don't want to make L! :-(
************************************************
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Resignation
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 16:50:18 +0200

Salve Honorable Sextus Apollonius Draco salvete all citizens!

I am full of sadness. I have feared your resignation for some time. You
have seen the fullness of the arrogans and intolerance that Nova Roma is
capable of. You have given this micronation all that we could ask of You,
The Muses and the debattes have been made alive by your passion. I have not
always agreed with your stand points, but I haven't always agreed with your
opponents either. You have made your share of mistakes, but so have your
opponents too. No one is without faults, not I, nor anyone else. That You
are young has been said, more than once. That is your advantage!!! ;-) I
think that a person making misstakes at your age have the chance of
learning and changing to the "better". But when it comes to some of the
older ones, I doubt if they will ever learn.

I am a teacher of young people of 13 - 16 years of age and many of them
stay in contact with me year after year. I think we so called grown ups
need to stay in contact with the young, me doing this is a priviledge.
Through my young friends I see myself, my young rebellious self. I see the
hopes that I once had and the fire that burns inside those who just have
started their life. Not all of You are teachers, but many are parents. Look
at our young, yes young, but that is as I have said his advantage, friend
Draco. He could be your son, would You let him walk away then? Would You
not say to your son? "Stay and fight, maybe You will loose, maybe You
should loose, but if You stay You will learn and be wiser. And one day You
will have to take the lead, because we will be old, weak and tired." Isn't
that what You would say to your own son, dear citizens? Why do You not say
it to this son?

I hereby publicly ask You, Honorable Sextus Apollonius Draco, to reconsider
You recognation, for if the the young and rebellious in Nova Roma are
expected to behave as the older, more tired and disillusionised (?), the
Fire of Nova Roma surely is in danger! Stay for the sake of all of Nova
Roma!

I know that there are people who will just turn their back to You, those I
don't care about! But I ask all opponents and friends of Draco. Consider
this, one of the few young is leaving. Is that what we want? If Draco stays
both he and we will learn to live together. I publicly ask all citizens of
Nova Roma to ask Honorable Sextus Apollonius Draco to stay among us to help
us keep the Fire burning!

I am not sure that I deserve to be named a "shining example of Romanitas",
but I thank You and am proud to be among those that You named.

50 years old and maybe not so old, but in strong need of the young,
for what will Nova Roma be with only old people?

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
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************************************************
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http://www.acc.umu.se/~kerish/novaroma/main.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
Using a keyboard that don't want to make L! :-(
************************************************
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Adulthood and Voting
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 16:49:42 +0200

>Come on, Sardonicus - pick up your shield and get back in the fight.
>Don't leave us.
>
>Vale,
>
>Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus

Salve Illustrus Quaestor and Collegue Lucius Tiberius Sardonicus!

I have the privilige of being a friend of Honorable Titus Octavius Pius, he
has always talked about You as 2the opponent that became a friend". I have
had the best of impressions of You and as a collegue and co-citizens I
agree with Illustrus Senator Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus and
humbly ask You to re-consider your resignation. Of course I understand that
my opinion may not be that influencual, but I can't let You go without You
knowing that You will be missed.

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
Join the List for the Thule Provincia in Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://www.acc.umu.se/~kerish/novaroma/main.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
Using a keyboard that don't want to make L! :-(
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Good Behavior and Our Loss (was Resignation)
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 11:09:42 -0400

. Salvete Omnes:
One thing I have learned over the years in Nova Roma, is that in the heat of politics and other things that people have very strong opinions for, is that words may be said that sting greatly. Many people have felt this, but we try to soldier on, so to speak. And when we perhaps get angry with others, that we try to moderate our emotions, hopefully, and control our responses.
In my own communications, I always try to get along with my fellow citizens, even when in strong disagreement, because fighting among ourselves accomplishes nothing, and is only harmful to Nova Roma, which we are all part of. We must try to remember that we are all working together to build something that our descendants will be proud of. To that end, we have to do our best to get along. Seeing Nova Romans who I respect get into "hot" disagreements with each other, when I respect both of them, makes me feel very uncomforable. But then, perhaps these are the "growing pains" of Nova Roma, which to a certain extent we should consider "normal" and try our best to keep them to a minimum. We must think of the Virtues, if we are of the Religio of Nova Roma, or the Golden Rule and Ten Commandments if we are Jewish or Christian Nova Romans. Nova Romans of other faiths should live by their moral codes. If we do this, make it part of our lives, we will get along, and Nova Roma will be great.
Many citizens may fear getting into debates because of attacks, being shouted down, name calling, or even privately E-mailed threats, as has happened on a few occasions to citizens in the past. The ones who have done this are no better then immature schoolyard bullies who get a kick out of instilling fear into those who are easily intimidated. Those are the ones who we have no need of. If this did not happen perhaps more people would be willing to speak up and offer their ideas and contribute in this forum.
Everyone has the right to speak their opinion as long as it is done in a civilized fashion. We should all strongly support their right to speak even when we are totally against what they say. We all have that freedom, to speak our mind. When we disagree, we should disagree as friends, as civilized Nova Romans should. Our criticisms should be friendly. Our arguments, civilized.
Those who think or act otherwise, should be politely invited to leave, in a friendy manner of course. :-) This is my humble opinion. But at the moment, I believe we are losing people that should be staying and contributing. We will not be strengthened by their leaving. Both sides have given greatly to Nova Roma in their own fashion, and I wish there was some way the whole thing could be settled in a friendly fashion. I am saddened by our loss.

Valete Omnes, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, ... Rogator

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Subject:	[novaroma] Good Behaviour and Our Loss (was Resignation)
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 15:18:42 -0000

Salvete Cato et alii:

Cato, as usual, you speak wisely and eloquently.

Thanks for your gentle advise.

Bene valete,
Pompeia
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Making Youngsters into Voters
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Sat, 26 May 2001 23:17:32 -0400

I strongly disagree! Any youth that will want to have anything to do with
Nova Roma would want there opinions to count. Thus the vote. Yes it is
easier, though hardly better!

Now if we have youths that can prove them selves worthy of the right by
passing a test then we can reap many benefits from the hard work. The most
important being insuring a future. If we can get teens strongly involved in
our nations development, then more likely they will be here when we grow
old. Though this is just one of many. Another is that by letting them
express a opinion that counts. By giving them this opportunity then they can
learn much more then just watching. Personally a this time we gain very
little from our younger people. We are turning away from many great
opportunities. Smarter the next generation, smarter the Nova Roma of the
future. Step one is adding this youth test to the constitution, or at least
reviewing it in detail.

Hinc est mei oratio!

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Civis Canada Orientalis

Andrea Gladia Kyrinia wrote:

> Salvete!
>
> --- jmath669642reng@-------- wrote:
>> Citizen Petrus;
>> Wouldn't just be easier just to let these youngsters grow up up?
>
> I honestly don't know of a single organization, national or
> international, that is based in the US and lets anyone under 18 even
> join an organization such as Nova Roma without parental permission at
> the very least, if that.
>
> IMO, those that are here and underage should count themselves fortunate
> that they have the opportunity to learn so much at such a young age.
> Had I learned all that I have learned in the past four or so years back
> when I was much younger, I would have been blessed indeed for that I
> would be that much farther on my path. Waiting a year or two to vote
> is not a hardship. Being denied the chance to even be here would be.
>
> Just my thoughts on the matter from someone who remembers a young 15
> year old girl, struggling with trying to meet people on BBSs and
> Fidonet who might have an inkling of neo-Paganism, let alone a
> micronation founded on Roman values and culture.
>
>
>
> Valete,
>
> =====
> Andrea Gladia Kyrinia
> Apollinis Templi Sacerdos
> Materfamilias of Gladia
> *******************************************
> Yahoo: kyreneariadne / andrea_gladia / andrea_m_berman
> AIM: Kyrene Ariadne / la Amberman ICQ: 6663573
> http://TempleApollo.faithweb.com/index.html
>
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Making Youngsters into Voters
From:	TSardonicus@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 01:16:41 EDT

In a message dated 5/26/01 9:21:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
andrea_gladia@-------- writes:

> k... now, how does this affect the current status of the "18 to vote"
> idea? How would you see this as being implemented in Nova Roma?
>

Salve,

In Roma Antiqua, the pater held complete and total reign over the livelihood,
status, and yes, even the lives of his family. I think Drusus was pointing
out that we are disregarding this in favor of a system tailored to
contemporary views of "majority".

If we want to put a Roman spin on majority in Nova Roma, we should give the
head of each gens the right to say when and where a member of his/her gens
can voice an opinion, vote, marry, eat or sleep. Considering the facts that
we've had quite a few gens removed from the census due to inactivity, and the
gens of nova roma are not true families, who really wants to go that route?
Perhaps if we put more emphasis on Gens and family, we would have a more
"Roman" community and could implement such a definition of majority.

I could go on about how I believe that an applicant should find a gens and
receive gens endorsement before being allowed to apply for citizenship, but
I'll leave you with those two sestercii for now.

Vale,
LTS

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Subject:	[novaroma] Resignation
From:	Mr Bart Van <troglodyte83@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 04:20:57 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes,

I, Quintus Apollonius Flaccus, hereby resign from
NovaRoma as well. Few people may know me because I
stopped being an active member quite some time ago;
the reasons for my inactivity and subsequent
resignation largely coincide with the grievances of my
fratres Sextus and Lucius, but I will explain my
personal reasons for quitting very briefly :

The recently voted laws have confirmed my long-held
view of NovaRoma as an organisation becoming more and
more oligarchic, punitive, conservative and rightist
in the course of time, or concisely : too much
'Bush-ism' to my (democratic) taste.

In the year I have been a member of NR I've noticed a
strong downward evolution in the politics of NovaRoma,
politics that unfortunately continue to dominate and
consume the activity of this could-be-auspicious
society in a very negative way. There are still other
reasons for my resignation but I prefer to keep this
message short, because I don't believe that writing a
letter full of complaints would prove beneficial
either to myself or to NovaRoma.

Obviously, my resignation from NR implies that I will
retract as retiarus (webmaster) of the Provincia
Gallia as well; I will delete the website of the
Provincia as I quit.

Valete,

(ex-)Quintus Apollonius Flaccus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Resignation
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 11:41:11 EDT

Salve Draco

I don't understand this, either from you or from others. Is there any
society in which you feel at ease and in concord with all other members?
If there is, I would like to go there, but probably wouldn't stay.

Do you think all Romans in the original Rome were of one mind? What were
you expecting here?

I am sorry to see you go. You have always been a contributor here, and a
stimulant to discussion and debate. I have respected you enough to enter
into debate with you, which is not true of everyone I may disagree with.
I won't try to debate your leaving since you feel you must, but don't
mistake that for tacit agreement.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

On 5/27/01 4:51 AM S. Apollonius Draco (hendrik.meuleman@--------) wrote:

>Salvete, Citizens of New Rome,
>
>
>This will most likely be one of the last times that I'm addressing you.
>Today, I am resigning. By this action I give up my position as scriba to
>Aedilis Maior, as legatus and scriba to my propraetor Lutecio, as Lupercus
>Fabianus, and as Coryphaeus and Musaeus of two collegia in the Sodalitas
>Musarum. I will also terminate the philosophy list, the dignitas forum and
>the iuventas list, and turn over moderation of the Gallia lists to my
>frater Tiberius. It was a tough decision to make, but in the end I always
>came to the same conclusion: a place like Nova Roma, that is at many times
>so different from my own moral and philosophical standards, isn't right
>for me, and would only be a source of frustration for me, and a source of
>irritation for my inevitable opponents.
>

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Resignation
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 18:19:22 +0200

Salve Honorable Quintus Apollonius Flaccus!

I see nearly the whole Gens Apollonia leaving. Sad busines, I think that
You all should stay, as Illustrus Senator Lucius Sergius Australicus
Obstinatus said to one of the others leaving: "Come on, Sardonicus - pick
up your shield and get back in the fight. Don't leave us."

There is a fight here, a fight to make Nova Roma a place governed by the
Roman virtues. If You leav,e that fight will be bloodier and longer than if
You stay! Please reconsider your resignation!

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
Join the List for the Thule Provincia in Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://www.acc.umu.se/~kerish/novaroma/main.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
Using a keyboard that don't want to make L! :-(
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
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Subject:	[novaroma] Resignation
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?WWFubiBRdely6Q==?= <yquere@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 18:29:43 +0200

Salvete Quirites, et Salvete Senatores et Censores Novae Romae

I, Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio, Propraetor Galliae, hereby resign from
NovaRoma. The resignation of my Legate and Procurator, Sextus Apollonius
Draco, who was almost thrown away from Nova Roma, as well as the resignation
of the webmaster of Provincia Gallia, Quintus Apollonius Flaccus, leave me
with a very bitter feeling about the recent behavior of some of our
'highest' magistrates. I realized I have nothing in common with some of
these people, obviously most interested in gaining power over other
individuals, Nova Roma being a mean to achieve that goal and has nothing to
do with Roma Resurgens nor Romanitas.

The newly voted laws have confirmed my point of view about Nova Roma which I
now consider as an overconservative organisation, which prones
segregationistic values, if not facist sometimes, oligarchy, self power and
greed, political mishief ; a so-called Republic who terribly lacks respect
for its own cives.

Obviously, my resignation from NR leaves Provincia Gallia alone. And If one
of my two Legates survives the resignation wave, I encourage the Senate to
appoint him as the new Propraetor Galliae.

Valete,

(ex-) I Querius Armoricus Lutecio
(ex-) Propraetor Galliae

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] NOVA ROMA: Capita Futura
From:	"Raina Faolan" <GuruPoet@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 12:56:38 -0400

Salve,

I have one question. Why are the chapters so short?

Vale,
Aeternia

>From: "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: "Sodalitas Musarum" <ForTheMuses@-------->, "Nova Roma"
><novaroma@-------->
>Subject: [novaroma] NOVA ROMA: Capita Futura
>Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 11:51:59 +0200
>
>Salvete;
>
>If anyone wishes to complete the Nova Roma Mars novel I had started, he or
>she may do so by simply asking for my approval privately. As for the rest
>of the storyline, here goes...
>
>
>Caput XVI
>---------------
>
>The wandering soldiers, Oppius, Peregrinus, Sertorius and Draco, are caught
>by the Martianalists Maximius and Quintilianus. Upon their arrival at their
>home caves, they meet Aeternia there as a captive, and have a formal
>meeting with the leader of the Martianalists, Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator.
>
>
>Caput XVII
>----------------
>
>Diocletianus interrogates Festus on the murders. Festus says he was sent by
>Earth to kill key figures in the NR government to weaken Mars and instigate
>so much paranoia, that Earth could gradually begin a takeover. He killed
>Cassius by impersonating his son Gaius Cassius Nerva, and later killed
>Piscinus from behind whilst he was taking a walk in the park. He'd let the
>other murders do by his underworld contacts, who in turn were then thanked
>for their services by killing them. Diocletianus then asks why the
>Martianalists where chasing him.
>
>
>Caput XVIII
>-----------------
>
>At the Martianalist Caves, Venator explains the lost soldiers the meaning
>of their trip. The Martianalists knew all along that Earth was getting
>involved in Mars' politics, but wanted to wait for a full-scaled invasion
>once the terraformation project would be set up. However, since a global
>invasion would cause too much protest on Earth itself, plus, the campaign
>would most likely destroy the frail terraformation programme, they got help
>from a mysterious alien ally. Eons ago those aliens had a small outpost on
>Mars, but due to the technological, cultural and military decline of their
>race they sought to retreat to Mars once again. Small groups of agents
>swerved on the planet, and the first to spot them were the Martianalists,
>an originally religiously inclined group that believed in the spiritual
>entity of the planet. Through surviving with only few resources, and
>focusing on meditation and discipline, many Martianalists became
>preternaturally gifted. So, even though the aliens were technologically
>superior, the Martianalists had the advantage of their minds. When it
>became appearent the aliens -- the Arg -- were about to lose, they made
>contact with Earth, who had since long been leering at Mars.
>
>
>Caput XIX
>---------------
>
>Festus withdraws his earlier confessions, and says that he was actually
>acting at the behest of Consul Vedius. Diocletianus doesn't believe him,
>but the information leaks through an unreliable officer, and riots engulf
>Nova Roma. Some patricians flee the city, and in the midst of that chaos,
>masses of people demand the resignation of Vedius. Latter resigns, and a
>new election among the people appoints Octavius and Australicus as the new
>Consular pair. The panic continues to rage on however, as Earth declares
>war upon the Martian Republic of Nova Roma. In a historical speech Censor
>and Flamen Martialis Cincinnatus then manages to calm down the people, who,
>at his call, join the army en masse. Others seek spiritual refuge in
>temples, or smaller communities far away from the capital itself.
>
>
>Caput XX
>--------------
>
>Meanwhile in the Martianalist Caves, the story goes on. Venator says that
>the Arg and Earth had agreed to send a specialized assassin to destabilize
>the Nova Roman government; their "weapon of choice" was Festus, not only a
>notorious satirist, but also a former military, who rose to almost be the
>equal of Audens, until he was forced to resign because of a gladiator
>scandal. He then went in voluntarily exile, but remained a Roman at heart.
>He made a lot of contacts with the Lunar and Earth underworld, and was
>thusly enlisted by the Arg to do their bidding. His reward would be to be
>governor of the Earth's part of Mars (the Arg and the Earth would divide
>the Martian territories among themselves). Meanwhile, no government
>official was really convinced of a possibility of an invasion from Earth --
>safe for an occasional spy, there were no irregularities in their contacts.
>However, the army began to suspect certain things, and although it was
>mostly due to their own paranoia, they hit the nail on its head. Secretly,
>a covert operations began to begin building terrible defence mechanisms
>against an Earth invasion. But they, and some magistrates, also mistook
>Martianalists for Earth's agents (Martianalists destroyed terraformation
>bases to stall the Arg invasion, not to prevent Nova Roma from prospering).
>That's what began the conflict between Martianalists and the army. In a
>final stage, Audens issued a small mission that was to negotiate with the
>Martianalists, but they were shot out of the sky by the invisible Arg,
>probably at a sign of the traitor Ronanus, who was in turn killed himself
>by the Martianalists.
>
>
>Caput XXI
>---------------
>
>After a long and heated debate in the Senatus, the newly elected Consules
>declare war upon Earth in turn, and order the military tribunes to set up a
>defence plan. A second war declaration against the Martianalists is
>interceded by the suddenly returned Fortunatus, the tribunus sine collega.
>However, latter is arrested for a false charge, and put in prison, so the
>military apparatus can still fight against the hated Martianalists.
>Octavius and Praetor Diocletianus try to stop them, but to no avail.
>
>
>Caput XXI
>---------------
>
>Venator gathers the Martianalists, and offers Oppius, Marius, Draco and
>Sertorius the choice to stay or to leave as they please. After some debate,
>they decide to leave, and take Aeternia with them. Upon returning they run
>into Legio III of Olympus Mons, which had been given orders to seek and
>destroy the Martianalist caves. They manage to convince them that their
>true enemy is Earth, and that they'd better fight alongside the
>Martianalists against the Arg and the Earth troops. Sertorius then uses the
>legion's com radio to call Olympus Mons for assistance.
>
>
>Caput XXII
>----------------
>
>Earth begins its invasion on Mars, and while the space legiones are busy
>defending themselves quite succesfully, Arg troops land on Mars or emerge
>from their caves. A spontaneous mutiny erupts under the ground troops,
>which gather under the command of Oppius and Sertorius, against the Arg. In
>battle with the half-mechanical Arg, Draco has a shocking encounter with
>his old friend Curio, who was found by the Arg and turned into a cyborg.
>Draco manages to restore his sanity, and Curio turns on his rulers. Aided
>by the special telekinetical troops of Venator, the Arg are slaughtered.
>Meanwhile, Earth ships start penetrating the Martian defences and land in
>the north. The victory at the Martianalist Caves was only a small loss for
>the Arg, who continue to rise from the south towards Nova Roma itself. The
>land army and the Martianalists, that renamed themselves as the RLF (Roman
>Liberation Front) are pushed back to the borders of the eternal city, as is
>the "official" army that didn't partake in the mutiny on the northern
>border.
>
>
>Caput XXIII
>----------------
>
>The situation is hectic. In the north, landed Earth troops occupy each town
>systematecally and eradicate any form of resistance. The Martian army,
>under the command of Theodorus Tiberius, a formidable swordsman who learnt
>his craft from Ronanus, is slowly collapsing in their trenches. In the sky,
>the Martian fleet can do little but watch helplessly as more holes are
>being made in their defences by both Earth and Arg ships. In the south, the
>Arg and the RLF are entangled in a vicious conflict. Nova Roma itself is,
>of course, in turmoil. Festus escapes from prison, as does Fortunatus.
>Together with Diocletianus, the tribune joins the RLF, recognizing it as
>the official Martian army. When the fighting shifts to the city itself,
>prominent personalities like Formosanus and Sulla are slaughtered by Earth
>troops. Australicus goes insane, and kills Octavius, to elevate Vedius to
>the position of Consul again. They recognize the old Martian army, led by
>Theodorus, as the official army, and when the RLF becomes pushed back into
>the city, these two armies begin to fight among themselves as well. In the
>midst of all of this, only the temples of Mars and Venus remain free of
>violence, and are miraculously not attacked by any faction.
>
>
>Caput XXIV
>-----------------
>
>The situation suddenly changes when the Arg betray Earth, sending their
>former spy, Festus, as a corpse to the Human generals. During this
>involuntarily armistice, the RLF and the Martian army agree on a deal.
>Fortunatus and Theodorus will fight a gladiatorial combat to decide which
>army will be the official Roman one. Fortunatus eventually emerges
>victorious, slaying Theodorus. In a fit of insanity, Australicus poisons
>Vedius, and has himself crowned emperor by a few faithfuls. A last, and
>small opposition by Cincinnatus is also violently struck down by
>Australicus. Despite Fortunatus' victory, large parts of the Martian army
>refuse to recognize the victory and side with Australicus.
>
>
>Caput XV
>---------------
>
>Earth decides to strike back at the Arg rather than the scattered Romans,
>and nukes their mothership. Shortly thereafter, the Arg become defeated,
>more by confusion and good luck rather than decent strategy. Australicus
>then decides to attack the Earth troops in their backs, and, by having the
>remaining ships of the Martian fleet hold the Earth's mothership "hostage",
>Earth is forced to retreat from the Roman Republic.
>
>
>Caput XVI
>---------------
>
>Negotiations between the RLF and Australicus fail. Marius and Draco are
>arrested under suspicion of high treason, and accidentally Aeternia is
>arrested, too, being accused of spying for the Martianalists in Sulla's
>dominions. During the subsequent fights, Oppius and Sertorius are slain.
>Venator and Fortunatus lead the remaining part of the RLF back to the
>Martianalist caves, away from the emperor, who turned the Respublica
>Romana-Martialis into the Imperium Romanum. In the early morning, while
>people have begun rebuilding Nova Roma, Marius, Draco and Aeternia are
>sentenced to death by hanging. The cyborg Curio remains as a sole survivor
>and witness of the tragedy, all day long, until the sun sets over the red
>surfaces of Mars.
>
>
>**--**
>
>Valete!
>Sextus Apollonius Draco,
>Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
>Darkling_Crawler, Yahoo IM
>
>
>"Come, fly the teeth of the wind;
>share my wings" (FSOL)
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Resignations
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 13:06:21 -0400

Salvete Omnes: Question: Should one leaves one's country because free elections or free voting on leges does not go the way one would like?
I don't believe so. Not as long as the voting is free and the choices made are by the people. I do not leave my country if I am governed by a Prime Minister who I dis-like and whose policies I dis-like if the decision was freely made by the people as a whole, and there where distinct alternatives.
Instead, I work lawfully to try to help get one of the other parties elected during the next election. I do not take my ball and bat and glove and go home feeling hurt. I stay, and try my best to win the next time.
Ave atque vale, ... A. Cato, ... Rogator

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re NOVA ROMA, capita futura
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 13:12:08 -0400

Salve Aeternia: I believe that Sextus Apollonius was merely presenting an outline of the chapters in order for someone else to take up the challenge of filling them out into full large chapters.
Ave atque vale, ... A. Cato, ... Rogator

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Resignation
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 19:23:29 +0200

Illustrus Propraetor and Collegue Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio and
Salvete Omnes!
I can understand your disappointment, but if this is a fight You are
leaving in the middle of it. That wont do any good! Nova Roma is a new
society and nothing is determined yet. The out-come could become something
like You want to, then You will have to fight. I have said it before and I
say it again, as Illustrus Senator Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
first said: "Come on, pick up your shield and get back in the fight. Don't
leave us."

To all citizens of Nova Roma I say:
Is there a tendency that a lot of Europeans leave, if so? Why? Maybe Nova
Roma must reconsider its approach to debattes and relations between
citizens. I don't say that the Europeans are leaving, but "I have a bad
feeling about this"!

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
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************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
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************************************************
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Resignations
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 17:56:56 -0000

>Salvete Propraetor Fabius et alii:
>(snip)
>
>Is there a tendency that a lot of Europeans leave, if so? Why? Maybe Nova
>Roma must reconsider its approach to debattes and relations between
>citizens. I don't say that the Europeans are leaving, but "I have a bad
>feeling about this"!

Pompeia: What very wise words, sir. Nova Roma must reconsider its approach
to debates and relations between citizens.....between ALL citizens.

We will not grow, in my opinion, if we are constantly strangling each other
with caustic political rebuttals and/or distasteful inuendos.

Oh, I am not naive, we have to debate and discuss important issues.
However, in doing so, via posts, let us ask ourselves a some questions:

Is the statement I am about to make to the community so important that it is
worth hurting the feelings of someone else? Or will the resultant
dissention I cause be grossly disproportionate to the validity and necessity
of my comments?

Are my remarks constructive and for the benefit of Nova Roma?

Are my remarks courteous?

Is this the 50th or 60th time I have posted on the same subject? State your
case once or twice.....people can read, and they will make up their own
minds on an issue........

The key word is COMMUNITY........We are supposed to be a COMMUNITY
celebrating Roman culture and VIRTUE.

Celebrating VIRTUE, it would seem, is quite relective of how we treat other
people.

I am most saddened at yet another wave of resignations, from civites who
have put productive effort into Nova Roma. Do I always agree with these
individuals? NO! But their untiring efforts to the growth of Nova Roma is
not something I can easily dismiss.

COME BACK!!!!

Folks, I am not trying to preach a sermon or give a lecture here. But let
us think unity. We can look at a cup and see it half full or half empty.
When we disagree with someone on one or two things, lets also keep in mind,
that there are the remaining issues which essentially we agree upon. Often
we forget to look at things this way.

I have another idea, seeing as I am being rather long winded. There are
religious holidays called Die Fastes (did I spell that right), in which no
business may be conducted. Perhaps we could extend this tradition to "no
political bickering in the forum" on these days.

We can use these days to discuss Roman culture, religion, philosophy,
military history.......we could use these days for positive purposes, where
we could enjoy each other's attributes and grow solid roots to the building
of our community.

We will never be a strong nation without a well-rooted sense of comradry and
community. It just isn't gonna happen civites.

Let each of us take personal responsibility in the building of our res
publica.

Love and Blessings TO ALL OF YOU (and I am sorry this is so long)

Pompeia Cornelia

>
>
>
>Vale
>
>Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
>Quaestor of Nova Roma
>Propraetor of Thule
>Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus
>
>The Opinions expressed are my own,
>and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
>************************************************
>Join the Main List for Nova Roma
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
>Join the List for the Thule Provincia in Nova Roma
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join
>************************************************
>The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
>http://www.acc.umu.se/~kerish/novaroma/main.html
>************************************************
>Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
>"I'll either find a way or make one"
>************************************************
>"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
>************************************************
>Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
>************************************************
>Using a keyboard that don't want to make L! :-(
>************************************************
>PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
>DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
>MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80
>
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re NOVA ROMA, capita futura
From:	"Raina Faolan" <GuruPoet@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 14:00:16 -0400

Salve,

Oh okay, I understand now. Thank you Appius for clarifying me, it's
appreciated.

Vale,
Aeternia

>From: "A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: <novaroma@-------->
>Subject: [novaroma] Re NOVA ROMA, capita futura
>Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 13:12:08 -0400
>
>Salve Aeternia: I believe that Sextus Apollonius was merely presenting an
>outline of the chapters in order for someone else to take up the challenge
>of filling them out into full large chapters.
> Ave atque vale, ... A. Cato, ... Rogator
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Something is wrong!
From:	Kanat Elibol <kelibol@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 21:19:47 +0300

Avete.....

Some brave people left us!
Tomorrow, when I turn the computer on, I don't want to see the
headings of
'Another sad day!' , 'We will go on!' or 'Today is a new day!' in my
mailbox!
Because I've heard those before!
There is something wrong with the res publica.....
Don't you think that the time has come to look into ourselves
then stop and think...What?

Valete
Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion

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Subject:	[novaroma] Ave Pompeia Cornelia
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 14:31:56 -0400

Ave Pompeia Cornelia: You as well, very eloquent and precise. I hope people read and listen to the silent words in your post. There are very important lessons there to be learned. Gratias tibi ago.
Ave atque vale, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, ... Rogator et civis Canada Orientalis N.R.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Gentes et Familiae (was Making Youngsters into Voters)
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 11:33:03 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes; et salve, Sardonice.

--- TSardonicus@-------- wrote:

<<snipped>>

> If we want to put a Roman spin on majority in Nova Roma, we should
> give the
> head of each gens the right to say when and where a member of his/her
> gens
> can voice an opinion, vote, marry, eat or sleep. Considering the
> facts that
> we've had quite a few gens removed from the census due to inactivity,
> and the
> gens of nova roma are not true families, who really wants to go that
> route?
> Perhaps if we put more emphasis on Gens and family, we would have a
> more
> "Roman" community and could implement such a definition of majority.

I agree with you, Sardonice. As most of you have already noticed, I
always support the recreation of Roman traditions. However, the
absolute potestas of the Patres Familiae would be one example of what I
would consider unpractical, giving our modern lifestyles and
concictions.

I also agree in that we should try to recreate the Roman family system.
However, our gens system is pretty different from the original one. We
have somehow mixed the Roman concepts of "gens" and "familia".

In Ancient Rome, a "gens" was a group of "familiae" who shared a
"nomen" and a common heritage. The "patresfamiliae" where not the head
of a gens, but of one of the familiae of a gens. And not all the
members of the same gens had to belong to the same Order; there were
patrician and plebian familiae alike belonging to gens Claudia, for
example.

Although a more faithful approach to the Roman familiar system would
mean a major change in the organization of Nova Roma, I firmly believe
it is worth the effort. And, once we have approached the Roman system,
we could study how to give the Patres of each familia some of their
traditional powers; I think that Drusus' proposal of having them
handling the acceptance of young citizens prior to a certain mandatory
age (18) would be a very good example of these "attainable" traditions.

> I could go on about how I believe that an applicant should find a
> gens and
> receive gens endorsement before being allowed to apply for
> citizenship, but
> I'll leave you with those two sestercii for now.
>
> Vale,
> LTS

I am also interested in your opinion on this subject. I believe we
should also follow Roman tradition on this one. Sometimes, barbarians
or liberti entered citizenship when they where adopted by the Pater of
an established familia. I think we should study how this was exactly
done, and discuss the possibilities of its application on our modern
environment.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Resignations
From:	Andrea Gladia Kyrinia <andrea_gladia@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 11:48:42 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete!

I know that this subject is being beaten to death, and that a lot of
people are upset--rightfully so. So please, apologies in advance and
bear with me.

--- Pompeia Cornelia <scriba_forum@--------> wrote:
> Pompeia: What very wise words, sir. Nova Roma must reconsider its
> approach
> to debates and relations between citizens.....between ALL citizens.

Wiser words never spoken, Pompeia! I think that we often forget that
there is a face behind the electronic words, and speak without
thinking. I myself am a very outspoken and blunt individual, and while
my facial experiences and tone of voice can come across very clear in
person, it is not always so on email. Remembering that we as Nova
Romans are inclined to be passionate and have passionate opinions, we
must strive for better communications between our fellow Nova Roman
citizens and remember that regardless of differences of opinion and
thought, we are all here for a similar purpose. Our differences should
unite us as we learn from them, not divide us.

Here are my thoughts: if you cannot agree, either take it to private
email, or respectfully agree to disagree, and move on. Also, if you
have a personal issue with an individual person, if you have a problem
for ANY reason, whether it be a casually spoken word on email or in
chat, regardless of how certain you are that they meant what they
said--*talk* to them. Email is an imperfect medium for communication.
If I had a nickel for every time I had a misunderstanding with someone
that would have been straightened out had we talked about it, I could
resign my job, retire early, get my house, and devote all of my 9-6
hours to my spirituality. I'd make Bill Gates my butler!

In all seriousness, regarding the debates, for example, I have heard
some wonderful arguments for and against underage voting within Nova
Roma, some of which have allowed me to sit and rethink issues that I
had not thought of before. As a result, I will not post on the thread
until I think of something that has not been said before.

> I have another idea, seeing as I am being rather long winded. There
> are religious holidays called Die Fastes (did I spell that right), in
> which no
> business may be conducted. Perhaps we could extend this tradition to
> "no political bickering in the forum" on these days.

I think that this is a wonderful idea. On a slight side note, I also
think that it would be dull as anything for all of us to agree. I
personally would not learn nor gain anything from the experience if
every post of mine was yes-ed to death. We are not Nova Roma of Borg.
;)

I have been here for two years as of next month. I have remained
through many "issues," and will continue to do so. There are wonderful
individuals here who have made it their unceasing effort to provide
Nova Roma with their support, and people here who genuinely care about
this place, its people, and its issues. Don't let the bad issues weigh
you down--think of what they mean, and how we can regard them in our
minds in order to make the most out of Nova Roma and what it has to
offer. Try to turn them into experiences that we can learn from. They
are harsh lessons indeed, but what do they mean? What can we get out
of this, or take away from it?

Our consequent actions may not bring back the people who resigned, but
they may prevent more from doing so in the future.

Valete,

=====
Andrea Gladia Kyrinia
Apollinis Templi Sacerdos
Materfamilias of Gladia
*******************************************
Yahoo: kyreneariadne / andrea_gladia / andrea_m_berman
AIM: Kyrene Ariadne / la Amberman ICQ: 6663573
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Resignation
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 11:51:37 -0700 (PDT)

Carissime Draco;

It is with great dismay that I have received notice of your
resignation. I am writing these lines to try to convince you to do
else. Please, accept my apologies for my intromission into your private
decisions, but I really think you are extremely important for our
Republic, and that you have much, much to offer.

First, let me tell you that I fully understand your position. In the
past weeks, you have been the subject of extreme and many times
injustified attacks by some citizens. They concentrated on you
personally instead of on your issues, and that was plainly and simply
stupid.

I have to entone a "mea culpa" for not having expressed my opinion at
that time, but I always try to avoid helping others when my help has
not been asked for. It would have been very petulant from my part to
have done so, but now I think I should have done it nonetheless.

Second, let me tell you that I admire your passion and your courage,
although I do not always agree with your affirmations. However, I think
you will agree with me in that our disagreement has not been an
impediment to our relation, which has been, to my regret, extremely
shallow and short in time.

I would like you to consider how much you can still do in Nova Roma. I
would accept it if you decided to leave the political arena for some
time (or forever, if that's your decision). But you still have many
other activities that I believe are extremely close to your heart, like
your outstanding work in the Sodalitas Musarum and your work in
Provincia Gallia. Please, use your nine-days period to think about how
much you still have to give and to receive in Nova Roma.

I also would like to point out that, without your political ideas, Nova
Roma will loose much. It is always necessary to see different views of
issues, and your particular view will be extremely missed. Sometimes,
one has to be courageous (as you are, amice Draco) to endure the
criticism of others, either when that criticism is constructive and
meritory or, as in your case, when that criticism is pointless and
derogatory.

Please, be valiant, Draco. Please, don't leave us. We still have much
to learn from you.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Redesign
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 11:58:53 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes; et salve, Silvana Atia.

--- domusludus@-------- wrote:

<<snipped>>

> I beling to another group of PGP users who have found themselves with
> several "spin-off" groups. Their answer was to put these groups into
> a welcome email so that anyone joining the group would see this email
> first thing. They also occassionally send the email out just to
> remind people, especially when the talk gets "off topic".
>
> Perhaps this is the solution for this mailing list. There is, if
> memory serves, a place where you can have messages sent to the list
> on a regular basis -- once a month, once every couple of weeks,
> whatever. Send a list of all the "official" lists to this main list
> from time to time.

I was thinking more about the main Nova Roma web sites, as most times
it is the first contact with Nova Roma for prospective citizens.
However, I see your point, and I think it's a good idea. Maybe the
Curatrix Sermonis could express her view on this subject.

>
> Even *I* must admit that it is difficult to *not* find something of
> interest within Nova Roma. The "main list" gets very political, but
> I think there actually *is* a list for that somewhere, or perhaps
> that is my hope speaking <G>.

And if there isn't, you should try to build one. Nova Roma is for us to
make. The issues she covers should be the issues in which us, her
citizens, feel interested in.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Something is wrong!
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 12:10:10 -0700

Ave,

I do not think anything is wrong with the Res Publica. The problem is
that those who have left left for their own reasons. Most of them we
have not really heard of before. And, you only get out of Nova Roma
what you put IN to Nova Roma. I believe that intensely. As for some of
those who are more vocal, they are essentially saying they left because
they lost. In Politics one wins and one loses. Its the nature of
politics. The virtue and strength one shows is when the continue to try
even after losing.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Kanat Elibol wrote:
>
> Avete.....
>
> Some brave people left us!
> Tomorrow, when I turn the computer on, I don't want to see the
> headings of
> 'Another sad day!' , 'We will go on!' or 'Today is a new day!' in my
> mailbox!
> Because I've heard those before!
> There is something wrong with the res publica.....
> Don't you think that the time has come to look into ourselves
> then stop and think...What?
>
> Valete
> Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion
>
>
>
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Resignation
From:	"Marcos Boehme" <m_arminius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 16:34:18 -0300

Salve, Draco; salvete Omnes.

Im extremely sad to receive your message of resignation. You was an invaluable Scriba, and an excellent leader of the Sodalitas Musarum. I have foreseen a great future to you here in Nova Roma, in the next years or decades, but now you leave...
I expect to mantain contact, friend.

Marcus Arminius Maior
Aedilis Plebis
--

On Sun, 27 May 2001 11:51:28
S. Apollonius Draco wrote:
>Salvete, Citizens of New Rome,
>
>
>This will most likely be one of the last times that I'm addressing you. Today, I am resigning. By this action I give up my position as scriba to Aedilis Maior, as legatus and scriba to my propraetor Lutecio, as Lupercus Fabianus, and as Coryphaeus and Musaeus of two collegia in the Sodalitas Musarum. I will also terminate the philosophy list, the dignitas forum and the iuventas list, and turn over moderation of the Gallia lists to my frater Tiberius.
>
>For the people above, I'm truly sorry to leave, and I offer them my apologies, with hopes of remaining in contact with them. As for the rest of Nova Roma: fare well. I hope you'll accomplish your goals, whatever those may be.
>
>Valete bene,
>Sextus Apollonius Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Something is wrong!
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 12:49:10 -0700 (PDT)

Avete omnes; et ave, honorabilis censor L. Corneli Sulla Felix.

First of all, let me say a few words. I don't want to offend anyone
with what I am going to say. My only objective is to express my
opinions on this subject and, maybe, to cast a shadow of doubt in the
heart of some of our most strongly opinioned citizens. But if any of
you feels offended by my assertions, please accept my apologies.

Now, I shall go on the subject of these lines.

I feel extremely bad about these last resignations, because I consider
myself at least partly responsable. Some of you have said that, in my
brief months in this Republic, I have earned some respect by being
extremely polite. However, although I have tried very hard to be polite
with everyone, my politeness has had a (perhaps too high) price.

I have followed the discussion between Draco and others with dismay. I
did not agree with all the points expressed by Draco, and I think he
made some mistakes; but those facts do not justify the personal attacks
he suffered. But, alas, I did not speak for him. I just skipped the
whole discussion, because it was not apporting anything to me, and
because I didn't agree with what Draco said. And that makes me
responsable. I should have spoken. I should have said that it was wrong
to concentrate on personalities rather than in issues. And now, I have
to pay the price, seeing how some citizens, who put their illusions and
effort (yes, effort, for it also takes time to handle a Province; not
to speak about the Sodalitas Musarum), part now my company.

Now, I hear that they left because of the outcome of the Comitia. And
now I must speak, for I have been silent for too long.

Nothing of what Draco or others has said implies that the reason of
their leaving has anything to do with those results. They have talked
about attitudes, and not about results or laws. This should be made
clear. He has shown courage many times, and were the defeat of his
arguments in this last votation so important to him, he would have
surely tried to keep up the fight on another day. For the laws of today
may not survive tomorrow unchanged.

And no, we will not be better off without them. Every citizen has
something valuable to apport to Nova Roma. And every citizen that
leaves us is taking some of our vital spirit with him.

We should learn, once and for all, that our discussions are only worhty
of merit when they stick to the issue discussed. And we should feel
extremely sad when someone we otherwise admire takes the path of
personal discalification, for our admiration decreases in a terrible
manner.

Having said this, I make a call to all of you to not repeat this again.
If you will not do it for your own dignitas, then do it for me. I love
all of you too much, and I don't want this love to be tainted by evil
words.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Resignation of the Governor of Gaul
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 12:46:41 -0700

Ave,

This is a bit of a rant...<Just a warning>

I am getting frustrated at the continual resignations of Oath Bearing
Magistrates. (Yes I know I was one for 12 hours and I am still
disgusted at my own action, and I did come back after 12 hours.) When
Magistrates resign they are violating the own Oath of Office they took!
They are shoowing utter contempt to Nova Roma and more importantly they
are showing their utter contempt of the People of Nova Roma. The People
that they are elected or were appointed to serve! I think something
must be done. Because an Oath is supposed to be a sacred statement that
one states to uphold the Constitution, even the Religio, by swearing to
the Gods. What does that say about the person who has taken the Oath?
I think we need stronger laws when a magistrate leaves NR and fails to
come back after his 9 day reconsideration.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Something is wrong!
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 13:02:55 -0700

Gnaeus Salix Astur wrote:
>
> Avete omnes; et ave, honorabilis censor L. Corneli Sulla Felix.
>
> First of all, let me say a few words. I don't want to offend anyone
> with what I am going to say. My only objective is to express my
> opinions on this subject and, maybe, to cast a shadow of doubt in the
> heart of some of our most strongly opinioned citizens. But if any of
> you feels offended by my assertions, please accept my apologies.

Please do not apologize...please speak your mind!

> Now, I shall go on the subject of these lines.
>
> I feel extremely bad about these last resignations, because I consider
> myself at least partly responsable. Some of you have said that, in my
> brief months in this Republic, I have earned some respect by being
> extremely polite. However, although I have tried very hard to be polite
> with everyone, my politeness has had a (perhaps too high) price.

I am sorry you feel partly responsible. Yes you have earned my respect
with every post you make. Even the posts where you and I disagree.

> I have followed the discussion between Draco and others with dismay. I
> did not agree with all the points expressed by Draco, and I think he
> made some mistakes; but those facts do not justify the personal attacks
> he suffered. But, alas, I did not speak for him. I just skipped the
> whole discussion, because it was not apporting anything to me, and
> because I didn't agree with what Draco said. And that makes me
> responsable. I should have spoken. I should have said that it was wrong
> to concentrate on personalities rather than in issues. And now, I have
> to pay the price, seeing how some citizens, who put their illusions and
> effort (yes, effort, for it also takes time to handle a Province; not
> to speak about the Sodalitas Musarum), part now my company.

Well, its the nature of politics to attack the person...as well as the
idea. I am sure we all essentially condemned the personal attacks...but
many of us have gone through worse....whats the difference here, you are
saying is that Draco could not handle it? M. Apollonius has used much
STRONGER words that "kid or boy."

> Now, I hear that they left because of the outcome of the Comitia. And
> now I must speak, for I have been silent for too long.

That is because some of them said it. Let me quote for you:

In the resignation of Lucius Apollonius Aquilia he states, "Anyway, I'm
not expecting a lot of people to miss me (actually, it would surprise me
if anyone did :-), but Nova Roma as a society should know that they are
scaring people away by voting leges such as the ones recently voted
for."

In the resignation of Sextus Apollonius he states, "It was a tough
decision to make, but in the end I always came to the same conclusion: a
place like Nova Roma, that is at many times so different from my own
moral and philosophical standards, isn't right for me, and would only be
a source of frustration for me, and a source of irritation for my
inevitable opponents.

In the resignation of Quintus Apollonius Flaccus he states, "
The recently voted laws have confirmed my long-held
view of NovaRoma as an organisation becoming more and
more oligarchic, punitive, conservative and rightist
in the course of time, or concisely : too much
'Bush-ism' to my (democratic) taste."

In the resignation of Ianus Querius Armoricus, he states, "
The newly voted laws have confirmed my point of view about Nova Roma
which I
now consider as an overconservative organisation, which prones
segregationistic values, if not facist sometimes, oligarchy, self power
and
greed, political mishief ; a so-called Republic who terribly lacks
respect
for its own cives."

So I believe they did resign because of the passage of laws. They
either flat out said it or in the case of Sextus Apollonius implied it.

> Nothing of what Draco or others has said implies that the reason of
> their leaving has anything to do with those results. They have talked
> about attitudes, and not about results or laws. This should be made
> clear. He has shown courage many times, and were the defeat of his
> arguments in this last votation so important to him, he would have
> surely tried to keep up the fight on another day. For the laws of today
> may not survive tomorrow unchanged.

Please read the above posts I quoted from their resignation statements.

> And no, we will not be better off without them. Every citizen has
> something valuable to apport to Nova Roma. And every citizen that
> leaves us is taking some of our vital spirit with him.

I never stated we would be better off without them.

> We should learn, once and for all, that our discussions are only worhty
> of merit when they stick to the issue discussed. And we should feel
> extremely sad when someone we otherwise admire takes the path of
> personal discalification, for our admiration decreases in a terrible
> manner.

That is something to strive for...but it will not happen unless people
are willing to compromise. In the Gens Cornelia recent attempt at
Concordia failed because M. Apollonius is unwilling to work for peace
and Concordia. Lets be blunt about this, I have tried to compromise
continously, what has the Gens Apollonia compromised with?

<Snip>

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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Subject:	[novaroma] Resignations
From:	"Marcos Boehme" <m_arminius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 17:06:28 -0300

Salvete, cives

First, the Quaestor assigned to me, L Tiberius Sardonicus, resigned. Then, my scriba, S Apollonius Draco. It was because of my bad breath? :-)

However, i have a question. The resignation of a office is irrevocable? That is, if a "resigned" officer or sacerdos resigned its position and citizenship, he can "step back" and return to his position too?

Vale
Marcus Arminius Maior
Aedilis Plebis

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Resignation
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 15:14:08 -0500 (CDT)

M. Octavius Germanicus omnibus civibus SPD,

Nova Roma has suffered a great loss today. One of our most active and
energetic citizens, Sextus Apollonius Draco, has left us. In his last
weeks here, he was subject to a barrage of harassment and insult,
merely because he advocated some unpopular ideas.

On many occasions his opinions were dismissed because of his youth,
with his detractors using such demeaning and patronizing terms as
"kid" and "boy", knowing full well that he objected to being addressed
as such. One of Draco's opponents was crass and boorish enough to
respond to news of his offense at the term with "I apologise if I
hurt the boy's feelings", which is no apology at all.

This was in retribution for Draco's having posted evidence that that
"citizen", Gaius Cassius Nerva, had in fact been accepted prematurely
in violation of the Edictum Cornelia et Maria de Civitate Eiuranda.

Because Draco had dared to point out that one of the laws currently
being voted on had already been violated, he was villified and accused
of trying to manipulate the election.

When the election had ended, the attacks on Draco continued. He was
called a "traitor" and a "communist". He was the subject of a vicious
parody, written by the ex-citizen whose identity he had exposed. This
puerile and insipid work features a character known as "Puellarius"
who is a "devoted and brainwashed follower" of Draco's paterfamilias,
supports communism and is made to utter the line "I love male asses".

Yet no protests were made to this grossly unfair characterization on
the Sodalitas Musarum mailing list, the area where Draco did most of
his work, a list where he should have been respected and defended.
Indeed, the author of this garbage was even complimented on it,
perhaps encouraging him to intensify his attack.

A dedicated and productive citizen has been chased away, while the
rest of us sat here and let it happen. This is a shameful day
in the history of Nova Roma.

Valete,
M. Octavius Germanicus

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Resignation
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 16:15:18 EDT

Salve

I think there are actually not "a lot" of anyone leaving. Two or three
mainly European cives who didn't get their way in the Comitia are cutting
out. Draco is leaving because he's been "diss'ed" omce too often.
Sardonicus is just sick of all the s**t that's been going on here. At
least that's my interpretation of it all.

I must admit that I have thought of leaving on more than one occasion,
but it won't be over a couple of laws I don't agree with. Hell, if that
were the case, there's not a nation on the planet I could stay in!

Rome would never have had much of a history to study if her cives had
behaved like some of ours do.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

On 5/27/01 12:23 PM Caeso Fabius Quintilianus (tjalens.h@--------) wrote:

>Illustrus Propraetor and Collegue Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio and
>Salvete Omnes!
>I can understand your disappointment, but if this is a fight You are
>leaving in the middle of it. That wont do any good! Nova Roma is a new
>society and nothing is determined yet. The out-come could become something
>like You want to, then You will have to fight. I have said it before and I
>say it again, as Illustrus Senator Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
>first said: "Come on, pick up your shield and get back in the fight. Don't
>leave us."
>
>To all citizens of Nova Roma I say:
>Is there a tendency that a lot of Europeans leave, if so? Why? Maybe Nova
>Roma must reconsider its approach to debattes and relations between
>citizens. I don't say that the Europeans are leaving, but "I have a bad
>feeling about this"!
>
>
>
>Vale
>
>Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
>Quaestor of Nova Roma
>Propraetor of Thule
>Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus
>

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Resignation
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 13:21:04 -0700

Ave,

But the problem with Sextus's accusation is how he carried it out..for
full effect. That was abundantly pointed out by Lucius Sicinus's post
about the October Surprise.

If you are going to play political games without having all of the facts
at your disposal....expect to get burned like the politicans, who play
those games. Sextus accused me without having any facts..going on only
assumptions.

The ideas, was not the issue here Senator. It was how he was trying to
discredit his enemies that brought the criticism back on him. Sorry, I
do not have much pity for Sextus Apollonius, since I was his target.
Lets not forget the good and the bad equally.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Marcus Octavius Germanicus wrote:
>
> M. Octavius Germanicus omnibus civibus SPD,
>
> Nova Roma has suffered a great loss today. One of our most active and
> energetic citizens, Sextus Apollonius Draco, has left us. In his last
> weeks here, he was subject to a barrage of harassment and insult,
> merely because he advocated some unpopular ideas.

<Snip>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Resignation
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 15:31:04 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Censor,

> But the problem with Sextus's accusation is how he carried it out..for
> full effect. That was abundantly pointed out by Lucius Sicinus's post
> about the October Surprise.

He withheld his knowledge of Nerva's true identity until provoked
by Nerva's own "October Surprise", the accusation of election fraud
against Piscinus. What else was he to do, when seeing an "October
surprise" posted by someone who himself was casting an illegal vote?

> If you are going to play political games without having all of the facts
> at your disposal....expect to get burned like the politicans, who play
> those games. Sextus accused me without having any facts..going on only
> assumptions.

He had plenty of facts. He knew, for a fact, that Festus resigned in
October. He knew that "Nerva" had been granted citizenship in
March, a full month before he was entitled to return. The only assumptions
he made was that Nerva and Festus were indeed one and the same (which
you confirmed yourself), and that your involvement in his reacceptance
was more likely than Equitius'.

> It was how he was trying to discredit his enemies that brought the
> criticism back on him.

So what, in his expose' of Festus, merits calling him a traitor, a
communist, or a lover of male asses? That's not criticism; it's abuse.

Vale, O.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Resignation
From:	MffnQueen@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 16:17:41 EDT

Wow, my first month at Nova Roma and already people are running for their
lives.. Was it something I said? ;) Alright, so perhaps I am new, but I
really feel the need to say something on this.. Sometimes you need an
unbiased opinion, especially with people who have gotten so involved in one
thing that they lose sight of everything else..

<< I realized I have nothing in common with some of
these people, obviously most interested in gaining power over other
individuals, Nova Roma being a mean to achieve that goal and has nothing to
do with Roma Resurgens nor Romanitas.>>

So they're typical politicians. You all have elected them, now you must deal
with them. Granted, I don't know the system inside and out, but I know that
if you really feel so strongly about these people and the future of NR, you
don't have to just sit there and take it. You could have found a candidate
for office that you felt would serve your wishes best and helped gather
support for them, or you could have run yourself.

Besides, there are many other avenues of interest here besides politics.
Obviously the rules and regulations of Nova Roma are vital to our well-being,
so we must at least tolerate - if not actively participate in - these
discussions for the sake of our nation. However, there are many other lists
that cover a wide range topics, from religion to literature to Roman cooking.
Surely you can find something in common in at least one of those places.
You can blame only yourself if all you see is "these people....most
interested in gaining power over other individuals." Perhaps you're just not
looking hard enough.

<<The newly voted laws have confirmed my point of view about Nova Roma which I
now consider as an overconservative organisation, which prones
segregationistic values, if not facist sometimes, oligarchy, self power and
greed, political mishief ; a so-called Republic who terribly lacks respect
for its own cives.>>

Then perhaps you should strive to make a difference and change things rather
than complain when they don't go your way. Though I've only been a citizen
for a few short weeks, I have received immense respect from everyone I've
come across, especially the "politicians." I don't know you and I don't
claim to, but I'm sure that your presence is valued here by at least one
person (more, I'm *sure*), and it would be a horrible travesty to disrespect
and disregard that (or those) person(s) because you would rather throw your
hands in the air and quit rather than give it your full effort.

And for EVERYONE who has resigned or is considering it: I realize that we
are in different places, but here in America no one really likes the people
in charge, even the ones we ourselves vote for, we simply put up with them
and their antics for the greater good. We don't renounce our citizenship and
move far away, never to look back. For the sake of your friends and fellow
Nova Romans, give it an honest shot before you pack up. Just a few small
words from one small woman. Okay, maybe more than a few.

*slips back into her seat in the shadows to watch the arguing and pulls out a
muffin to munch on*
Pax Vobiscum,
Julia Cassia Aurora

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Resignation
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 13:45:10 -0700

Marcus Octavius Germanicus wrote:
>
> Salve Censor,
>
> > But the problem with Sextus's accusation is how he carried it out..for
> > full effect. That was abundantly pointed out by Lucius Sicinus's post
> > about the October Surprise.
>
> He withheld his knowledge of Nerva's true identity until provoked
> by Nerva's own "October Surprise", the accusation of election fraud
> against Piscinus. What else was he to do, when seeing an "October
> surprise" posted by someone who himself was casting an illegal vote?

So it was motivated by revenge...is what you are saying?

> > If you are going to play political games without having all of the facts
> > at your disposal....expect to get burned like the politicans, who play
> > those games. Sextus accused me without having any facts..going on only
> > assumptions.
>
> He had plenty of facts. He knew, for a fact, that Festus resigned in
> October. He knew that "Nerva" had been granted citizenship in
> March, a full month before he was entitled to return. The only assumptions
> he made was that Nerva and Festus were indeed one and the same (which
> you confirmed yourself), and that your involvement in his reacceptance
> was more likely than Equitius'.

But he did not have the fact of my role in the matter. He assumed that
aspect completely...because he knew of my friendship. So instead of
taking it to the Praetors or even asking the Censors..he chose the most
public way of exposing "his conspiracy." In an effort to discredit me
and to get revenge over Nerva...is that about correct?

> > It was how he was trying to discredit his enemies that brought the
> > criticism back on him.
>
> So what, in his expose' of Festus, merits calling him a traitor, a
> communist, or a lover of male asses? That's not criticism; it's abuse.

Well to be honest, I never read most of those other posts...so I do not
remember the label of a lover of male asses. Your right its abuse..I
will agree...just like I have been abused, Consul Germancius has
been...Praetor Fabius has been...did that force us to resign?

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

> Vale, O.
>
> --
> M. Octavius Germanicus
> Propraetor, Lacus Magni
> Curator Araneum et Senator
>
>
>
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Subject:	[novaroma] A Consular statement on resignations
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 16:48:07 EDT

Salvete Omnes,

Like most of us, I am saddened to see a group of public resignations on the
main list. It is always unfortunate when a Citizen feels their personal lives
or needs are not compatible with Nova Roma. Intellectually I know it's not
possible for NR to be everything to everyone... but that doesn't help a
feeling of loss.

In this particular case, as with the incident on the "Ides of March," the
sense of sadness and frustration has gone on far longer than a few brief
resignation notices put up as a "statement." As a Citizen (never mind as an
official of any stripe), I've watched rather helplessly as folks such as
Draco and Quintus Apollonius Flaccus have argued out the same issues
repeatedly, never able to find closure or to move onward to more positive
discussions. I can only say that I hope the folks who leave will find the
Utopia they have desired, but not found Nova Roma to be.

To the over 900 Citizens who remain I am happy to state that Nova Roma is
still strong and growing rapidly! As an example, we have never had less than
20 new Citizens join in a month. Often we gain twice that or more. This means
that the resignations we have faced - both in March and again now - have
been/will be replaced numerically in just a little over ten days. New lists,
Sodalitas groups, live meetings and events, and more are continually added to
the infrastructure of Nova Roma. As others have said there is indeed a lot
going on here, far more than the politics which tend to get the "spotlight."

Yet while Nova Roma's continued health and growth is comforting in one sense,
it does not replace personal feelings of loss. Draco and most of the others
have been with us for some time, and have been both liked as friends and
respected as fellow Citizens. They'll be missed.

It seems to me that the positive way to deal with such a situation is not
only simply to learn from it, but also to do positive things to help our
community to heal. I've mentioned the new folks that continually join Nova
Roma... what can we do to help them feel comfortable here, and to assist them
in becoming productive comrades in the work of restoring Rome?

We do have new resources to hand, such as the wonderful information created
by Flavius Vedius Germanicus at:
http://www.goldenfuture.net/mediatlantica/whatnow/index.html

It is my hope that this web page, and other useful information can be put up
prominently on the main Nova Roma site. I also again offer the Virtue
Sodalitas as a means of helping to explore our lives as Romans and our
dealings with one another. Further, I also cannot stress enough the
usefulness of the various "non political" things to be involved with in Nova
Roma including other more focused lists, the local Provinciae, and of course
the other Sodalitas groups. Sitting around and crying into our cups of
Falernian can only go so far in helping with the absence of fellow Romans
we've grown to feel are a part of the family.

To sum up, a sincere Ave Etque Vale to those who have chosen to leave us, and
an even more enthusiastic AVE! :) to those who have the Romanitas to weather
the various storms that are bound to challenge us along the way.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Resignation
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 16:11:53 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Censor,

> > What else was he to do, when seeing an "October
> > surprise" posted by someone who himself was casting an illegal vote?
> So it was motivated by revenge...is what you are saying?

I'm not going to guess at Draco's motivations. You can ask him directly
if you truly wish to know. But I do find it disingenuous that you would
condemn him for an "october surprise", when it was in fact posted in
response to an opposing "october surprise", that came from someone who
shouldn't even have been voting.

Vale, Octavius.

M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	[novaroma] The Resignations
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 23:24:14 +0200

Salvete Omnes!

I now have a friend in a desperate situation, so I can't take the time I
want for the important dicussions that I want to do. So I just say a two
things.

1. In my first post I asked both friends AND opponents to join in asking
those who may leave to stay. I don't care about anyone's hurt ego. This is
not about ego, it is about Nova Roma, it is about changing the atmosphere
here. Illustrus Senator and Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus has spoken in
Concordia and if those who are leaving will listen to him they may consider
staying. Illustrus Senator, Propraetor et Curator Araneum Marcus Octavius
Germanicus has spoken up in attempt to defend those driven from us. Where
are the other Senators and Magistrates? Collegues, will we accept a
situation where some really good persons leave. Yes, they may have made
mistakes, but being young (as some are) they will learn. But will those
"grown ups" ever learn? Senators and Magistrates, please speak up!

2. Many have said that we must learn. That must be our second most
important decision, how wil we handle situations were people are abused and
bullied in the future? This must never happen again!

At last I say it again to those who are considering leaving:
"Come on, pick up your shield and get back in the fight. Don't leave us."

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
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************************************************
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************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
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************************************************
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Europeans and Resignations
From:	"Marcus Cassius Julianus" <cassius622@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 21:32:17 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@t...>
wrote:
> To all citizens of Nova Roma I say:
> Is there a tendency that a lot of Europeans leave, if so? Why?
>Maybe Nova Roma must reconsider its approach to debattes and
>relations between citizens. I don't say that the Europeans are
>leaving, but "I have a bad feeling about this"!

Salve,

This is a question that has interested me as well. I do believe that
Nova Roma has had at least a moderately higher percentage of European
Citizens resign, than Citizens from other areas.

Since I live in America I can't truly say I understand the situation
fully. However I'll at least hazard a couple of thoughts for
discussion...

A minor aspect of the situation has been that some European Citizens
have left because of difficulties/misunderstandings with language.
The majority of the folks on the main NR list speak English as a
first language. There have indeed been instances where folks who
speak English as a second language have been misunderstood, or have
misunderstood others. This is something that cannot easily be
resolved. The only cure is lots of patience and understanding on ALL
sides, and a recognition that we'll have that problem going on for a
while. Once the European Provinciae have grown the problem will
lessen at least on the local level.

The *major* portion of the problem is something else, and my guess is
that it involves differences among modern political systems and
ideals of the macronations we live in. Many of the folks who have
left seem to have socialist or communist leanings... both systems are
strong in Europe and weak in say, the U.S.

Why have Europeans left Nova Roma? My answering question is: Why do
thousands and thousands of Europeans riot in cities like London and
Paris on May Day?

Patricia Cassia and I were in London on May Day once. We just got out
of the city before large sections of it were closed down by violent
rioters. We were completely baffled by all of it! Lovely city, nice
standard of living, (I'll compare the worst sections of London to the
worst sections of New York City any day!) pleasant and contented
people... and thousands of people overturning cars and burning stuff
to express their personal views on what they feel society *should* be
like.

Many of the folks that have left Nova Roma were connected with the
Amici Dignitatis, for instance. My belief is that this group was
dissatisfied with Nova Roma on a foundational level. I at least felt
that their interpretation of Roman culture seemed to mirror modern
Socialist ideals more than anything that ever existed in Roma
Antiqua. That's tough, because if true it's an interpretation that
*could not* be adapted by the vast majority of Nova Romans. It's just
farther than most of us bookish history-buffs are willing to go.

Whether this is a correct notion, and whether it helps provide a key
to solving future problems is anybody's guess. I personally have few
ideas on how to correct such a massive gulf between points of view.

For instance, I've recently learned that I'm part of an "Evil
Oligarchy" of controlling oppressors, who delights in forcing others
to do my bidding. It was some news to me, I can tell you! Even more
interesting, another group of folks was at the same time complaining
to me that I'm "too nice a guy", and should be more assertive in
leadership! It's bizarre.

All I can do is state that the "Oligarchy" is nothing but whatever
Citizens have managed to last out all the craziness that Nova Roma
can dish out, and who have been elected to offices as a result of
being "old hands". Most of the "Oligarchy" will be out of office next
year, myself as Consul included. A whole new "Evil Oligarchy" will
take our places I guess... such is the eternal strife of "class
struggle". (Thank you, Comrade Marx!) :P

The folks who have been named as an "Oligarchy" are about as single
minded as the Citizens are here on the main list. Happily, any and
all of us are welcome to become part of this Oligarchy, simply by
say, not resigning Citizenship and political offices.

I personally feel that Citizens residing in Europe are a treasure for
Nova Roma. They're the ones lucky enough to be living in places where
Rome actually existed. They're the ones that can go to the Sacred
places, and trace the footsteps of our forebears. To me, modern
political views are worthless in comparison. If only it can be so to
others as well!

Anyway. If any other Citizens have thoughts on Nova Roma in Europe,
the topic might well be worth a separate thread of discussion...

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Something is wrong!
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 14:41:27 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes; et salve, honorabilissime censor L. Corneli Sulla Felix.

--- Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@--------> wrote:

<<sniped>>

> I am sorry you feel partly responsible. Yes you have earned my
> respect
> with every post you make. Even the posts where you and I disagree.

Tahnk you for your kind words. I very much appreciate the relationship
that has been growing between us. Even if we sometimes disagree on our
political views, we both are able to keep courtesy and to have a laugh
or two. I consider this highly valuable.

<<snipped>>

> Well, its the nature of politics to attack the person...as well as
> the
> idea.

It might be the nature of politics... every where else (including
Antiqua Roma). However, as we strive to resurrect "the best of Rome",
shouldn't we seriously try to concentrate on issues?

Besides, when these kind of attacks are made, nothing suffers more than
the dignity, the name and the political stature of those who use them.

> I am sure we all essentially condemned the personal
> attacks...but
> many of us have gone through worse....whats the difference here, you
> are
> saying is that Draco could not handle it? M. Apollonius has used
> much
> STRONGER words that "kid or boy."

Well, maybe Draco was not so "tough". He repeatedly said he found this
term offensive. Although it wouldn't have been offensive for ME (you
can call me "kid" or "boy" whenever you want; and I am not as young as
Draco, but certainly closer to him than to you ;-) ), the fact that he
found it so offensive should have stopped you (and by you I don't mean
censor Sulla, but all those citizens who did use that term). After all,
being nice is free, and one can only take advantages from it.

Besides, I think that, whatever citizen M. Apollonius might have said,
it is not pertinent on this issue. One of the main problems Draco had,
IMHO, was that he was too deeply identified by others with this
particular citizen. I think, however, that Draco thought for himself,
even when he and M. Apollonius Formosanus agreed.

<<snipped>>

> That is because some of them said it. Let me quote for you:

<<snipped>>

Now I have to apologize. Your quotes seem correct, so I was wrong and
you were right. See? It is simple :-).

However, I guess that, in the case of Draco, he seems to talk on a much
more general sense, talking about "moral and philosophical standards".

<<snipped>>

> I never stated we would be better off without them.

No, you didn't. And I didn't make myself fully understood. My
"diatribe" was not personally directed to you, but to all Novoromans in
general. And I still remember some unfortunate comments that I read on
this main list on my first weeks of citizenship, in middle March. I was
referring to those who thought in that way then, and who might think in
the same way today.

> That is something to strive for...but it will not happen unless
> people
> are willing to compromise. In the Gens Cornelia recent attempt at
> Concordia failed because M. Apollonius is unwilling to work for peace
> and Concordia. Lets be blunt about this, I have tried to compromise
> continously, what has the Gens Apollonia compromised with?

I don't know the facts on this topic, so you will excuse me from not
referring to it. However, as you seem to have implied that I was
referring to it, let me assure you that I was not. As I said before, my
letter was not directed to you alone, censor, but to the general
population. And my comments were rather general, and not so specific.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Europeans and Resignations, again
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 23:56:11 +0200

>>Salve,
>>
>>This is a question that has interested me as well. I do believe that
>>Nova Roma has had at least a moderately higher percentage of European
>>Citizens resign, than Citizens from other areas.
>>.........................................
>.................................................
>
>
>I personally feel that Citizens residing in Europe are a treasure for
>Nova Roma. They're the ones lucky enough to be living in places where
>Rome actually existed. They're the ones that can go to the Sacred
>places, and trace the footsteps of our forebears. To me, modern
>political views are worthless in comparison. If only it can be so to
>others as well!
>
>Anyway. If any other Citizens have thoughts on Nova Roma in Europe,
>the topic might well be worth a separate thread of discussion...
>
>Valete,
>
>Marcus Cassius Julianus
>Consul

Salve Illustrus Senator and Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus!

This will be short, I am going to bed and to morrow I am going to a long
day at my job. But I must just say that I really appreciate your approach
to this issue. In Nova Roma the approach to other's worries has been sadly
different. Mockery and abuse has been the way. Please Consul lead the way
towards a discussion that will make citizens feel that it is worth
something to stay and fight!

I am glad that You took up the issue of the Europeans. We have no
administration in Gallia, Italia or Hispania. Hispania is coming, but two
of the biggest nations in Europe? One of them being our "Motherland", what
can I say? Not good? Why is that so?

I'll certainly be back to discuss this.

Dear Consul I ask You as a good representative for Concordia and the
Virtues, please ask the citizens who are leaving to re-consider. If they
stay, I am sure that we all will be filled with hope and strength, if they
leave, we are the loosers!

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
Join the List for the Thule Provincia in Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://www.acc.umu.se/~kerish/novaroma/main.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
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************************************************
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A Consular statement on resignations
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 15:12:53 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes; et salve, honorabilis Consul Cassi.

--- cassius622@-------- wrote:

<<snipped>>

> I can only say that I hope the folks who leave will find
> the
> Utopia they have desired, but not found Nova Roma to be.

I hope that they reconsider their decision and decide to stay among us,
so they can keep fighting for their beliefs.

<<snipped>>

> It seems to me that the positive way to deal with such a situation is
> not
> only simply to learn from it, but also to do positive things to help
> our
> community to heal. I've mentioned the new folks that continually join
> Nova
> Roma... what can we do to help them feel comfortable here, and to
> assist them
> in becoming productive comrades in the work of restoring Rome?
>
> We do have new resources to hand, such as the wonderful information
> created
> by Flavius Vedius Germanicus at:
> http://www.goldenfuture.net/mediatlantica/whatnow/index.html
>
> It is my hope that this web page, and other useful information can be
> put up
> prominently on the main Nova Roma site. I also again offer the Virtue
>
> Sodalitas as a means of helping to explore our lives as Romans and
> our
> dealings with one another. Further, I also cannot stress enough the
> usefulness of the various "non political" things to be involved with
> in Nova
> Roma including other more focused lists, the local Provinciae, and of
> course
> the other Sodalitas groups.

I have read this page several times, and I have to thank Consul
Germanicus for having created this (among so many other good things).
However, I would like to suggest two things on this issue, because I
feel it is extremely important:

1.- I strongly support the idea of creating a link from the main page
of the Nova Roma web site to this page. I think it would prove to be
useful.

2.- Couldn't we expand this "help" to new citizens? Some ideas, like a
complete and updated list of the Sodalitates, come to my mind. I would
be extremely pleased to help in this venture, should my help be needed
(yes, I am offering myself for ANOTHER venture. My exams are going to
be terrible ;-) ).

Thank you for your attention.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Resignation
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 15:32:11 -0700

Marcus Octavius Germanicus wrote:
>
> Salve Censor,
>
> > > What else was he to do, when seeing an "October
> > > surprise" posted by someone who himself was casting an illegal vote?
> > So it was motivated by revenge...is what you are saying?
>
> I'm not going to guess at Draco's motivations. You can ask him directly
> if you truly wish to know. But I do find it disingenuous that you would
> condemn him for an "october surprise", when it was in fact posted in
> response to an opposing "october surprise", that came from someone who
> shouldn't even have been voting.

Actually no one ever asked for my thoughts on the one posted by Nerva.
If I am asked I will state my opinion.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

> Vale, Octavius.
>
> M. Octavius Germanicus
> Propraetor, Lacus Magni
> Curator Araneum et Senator
>
>
>
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Subject:	[novaroma] European Hindsight
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 15:51:41 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes; et salve, honorabilis Consul M. Cassi Iuliani.

Once again, I have to state my personal disclaimer. I will be talking
about socialism in the next lines. This does not imply that I am a
socialist, a communist, or a leftist of any kind. I am simply trying to
express what is the general vision of Europeans about these issues. My
personal political ideas are private, and will not be commented on this
post.

--- Marcus Cassius Julianus <cassius622@--------> wrote:

<<snipped>>

>
> The *major* portion of the problem is something else, and my guess is
>
> that it involves differences among modern political systems and
> ideals of the macronations we live in. Many of the folks who have
> left seem to have socialist or communist leanings... both systems are
>
> strong in Europe and weak in say, the U.S.

I wouldn't say that "communism", at least as the "dictatorship of the
proletariat", is too strong in Europe. Mainly because half of Europe
has lived under it for so long. However, it is true that the general
American fear for "socialistic ideas" is not shared by most Europeans.
But Europeans mostly refer to a democratic socialism, or
social-democracy. As such, you have to understand that calling a
European a "socialist" will not necessarily be felt as an insult ;-).

> Why have Europeans left Nova Roma? My answering question is: Why do
> thousands and thousands of Europeans riot in cities like London and
> Paris on May Day?
>
> Patricia Cassia and I were in London on May Day once. We just got out
> of the city before large sections of it were closed down by violent
> rioters. We were completely baffled by all of it! Lovely city, nice
> standard of living, (I'll compare the worst sections of London to the
> worst sections of New York City any day!) pleasant and contented
> people... and thousands of people overturning cars and burning stuff
> to express their personal views on what they feel society *should* be
> like.

May it have ocurred to you that some of that "pleasantness" on even the
worst parts of London was gained through demonstrations like the one
you saw on the First of May? And also remember that the First of May is
Labour Day in all of Europe. I guess that, when Detroit steel workers
demonstrate on labour Day, there's some violence sometimes. I have seen
plenty of violence in America, much more than in Europe, and I live in
a country which is under permanent terrorist threat.

<<snipped>>

> All I can do is state that the "Oligarchy" is nothing but whatever
> Citizens have managed to last out all the craziness that Nova Roma
> can dish out, and who have been elected to offices as a result of
> being "old hands". Most of the "Oligarchy" will be out of office next
> year, myself as Consul included. A whole new "Evil Oligarchy" will
> take our places I guess... such is the eternal strife of "class
> struggle". (Thank you, Comrade Marx!) :P

That would be if we followed Roman tradition more closely, forbidding
continuatio, accumulatio and prorogatio at least in the central
government offices.

> I personally feel that Citizens residing in Europe are a treasure for
> Nova Roma. They're the ones lucky enough to be living in places where
> Rome actually existed. They're the ones that can go to the Sacred
> places, and trace the footsteps of our forebears. To me, modern
> political views are worthless in comparison. If only it can be so to
> others as well!

In America, some aspects of political culture are deeply imbedded in
the very hearts and souls of its citizens. Some of these ideas
(although highly worthy of merit) did not belong to the ancient Roman
credo, but we hear them here everyday. I am talking about things like
the responsability of the government in front of its citizens, the
freedom of speech, the equality in front of the law, and so on. Why
should these be more respected than the "socialistic" ideas imbedded in
the hearts and souls of every European, whether we like it or not?

When we strive to recreate "the best of Rome", we have to accept to
make a few concessions to our time. As we have banished slavery and
granted equal rights for women, there will be other aspects of Roman
tradition that we will be willing to adapt to the modern times. I am
not saying that Nova Roma should become a socialist Utopia; but some
ideas should not be immediatly discarded because of their socialistic
origin.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Resignations
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 May 2001 19:32:14 -0400

Salvete,

Gnaeus Salix Asture scripsit:
<< I feel extremely bad about these last resignations, because I consider
myself at least partly responsable...I did not agree with all the points
expressed by Draco, and I think he
made some mistakes; but those facts do not justify the personal attacks
he suffered. But, alas, I did not speak for him.>>>

I, too, feel bad, for these very reasons. Draco did not deserve the kind of
vicious remarks poured on his head. Like it or not, he's still 17. My
daughter's age. Believe me, if ANYONE posted about my child what was said
about Draco (whether she had done something shameful or not) I sure would
have responded in kind. But I didn't. No one really did.

Marcus Octavius Germanicus scripsit:
<<< When the election had ended, the attacks on Draco continued. He was
called a "traitor" and a "communist". He was the subject of a vicious
parody, written by the ex-citizen whose identity he had exposed. This
puerile and insipid work features a character known as "Puellarius" who is
a "devoted and brainwashed follower" of Draco's paterfamilias, supports
communism and is made to utter the line "I love male asses".
Yet no protests were made to this grossly unfair characterization on the
Sodalitas Musarum mailing list, the area where Draco did most of his work, a
list where he should have been respected and defended. Indeed, the author
of this garbage was even complimented on it, perhaps encouraging him to
intensify his attack.>>>

Again, I agree. The only criticism I read of Nerva's libelous attack was
from Pompeia, I believe. We all should have said something.

Draco was a great asset to Nova Roma. He has a great deal of talent, made
lasting contributions to the Musareum, and epitomized many Roman virtues.
One being loyalty to his gens & his paterfamilias. Many of his detractors
could learn from his example.

One thing I really feel ashamed about was not saying anything when Draco was
attacked for admitting he thought to first post anonymously. You know, he
didn't have to say a word about that. He told us the pros & cons of it, and
also told us he tried it but was stopped. Why the viciousness? He made a
mistake, & admitted it.

Nerva, you have the maturity of a ten year old. I can only hope that Draco
does what you did. Which is come back after having resigned.

I also notice that M. Apollonius Formosanus is strangely quiet. Why hasn't
he resigned? He obviously enjoys stirring the pot & then sitting back
watching it boil. I certainly understand our consul's disgust with him.

I shall miss Draco & his work in the Musareum. And I shall not sit quietly
by the next time someone is personally attacked for their political views.

Valete,
Helena Galeria

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Macronational relationships
From:	Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@-------->
Date:	Mon, 28 May 2001 01:53:41 +0200

bcatfd@-------- wrote:
> We are a nation, Nova Roma will never be a true state unless it is
> akin to the Vatican, or more appropriately for comparative purposes,
> the Knights of Malta. The Knights of Malta are a sovereign nation
> with a small international capital (smaller even that the Vatican)
> with their citizens spread throughout the world. That is in my view
> what we are striving for in the long run.
>
> Our laws do bind us together while recognizing the physical and
> political realities of the world we live in at the same time. The
> fact that we can work around those realities is one of our strengths.

Salve, Iuni Palladi.

Now this image of the future is one I like, at least as a step on the
way. This is approximately the idea I had in mind, although I'd rather
consider it an ideological than spiritual "capital". A small piece of
land, wholly Nova Roman, where our citizens from around the world might
come and appreciate our theory in practice.

In my opinion, that is indeed "going macronational", and this is the
future I want us to be prepared for. I'm not saying we should start
replicating the whole "macronational kit", making our own laws for
theft, murder, and the entire package, but rather make our laws
supplementary to, and independant of, those. I.E. our legislation stays
out of their jurisdiction, and theirs stay out of ours. Again, to the
age issue. I would rather we had a common Nova Roman age of majority,
instead of accepting the one for whatever temporal power our respective
citizens happen to inhabit. However, as I recently discussed with Lucius
Sicinius Drusus, this might leave us open for discrimination charges
from a macronation, as long as we are legally a part of a macronation,
and therefore subject to it's laws.

This is one of the main reasons I think we should endeavour to "go
macronational" as soon as possible, so that we will not be held
accountable in a macronational court for whatever minor part of our
legislation happens to be counter to that of the macronation in
question. For instance, isn't it possible for a US citizen below 21 to
sue Nova Roma for age discrimination, because of the cursus honorum law
denying him/her from running for office before age 21?

I'm not from the US myself, but I could imagine such a charge being
made, if not in US, then in some other country where Nova Roma is a
recognized legal entity. We will be vulnerable for such occurences,
until we've established ourselves as a true macronation. I don't know
how this can be implemented, but I agree with you whole-heartedly that
violence is not the way. Diplomacy and determination is the proper way
to go about this. Sooner or later, we might gain this opportunity, and
then we shouldn't hesitate.

This is, I think, still quite a distant future. But that shouldn't
prevent us from hoping for it, preparing for it, and long for it.

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consiliarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Resignation
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Mon, 28 May 2001 09:54:07 +1000

I find this behaviour childish. I mean, you are leaving because you do not
get your own way. Perhaps it is for the best.

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: LSergAust@-------- [mailto:LSergAust@--------]
Sent: Monday, 28 May 2001 1:41 Am
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Resignation

Salve Draco

I don't understand this, either from you or from others. Is there any
society in which you feel at ease and in concord with all other members?
If there is, I would like to go there, but probably wouldn't stay.

Do you think all Romans in the original Rome were of one mind? What were
you expecting here?

I am sorry to see you go. You have always been a contributor here, and a
stimulant to discussion and debate. I have respected you enough to enter
into debate with you, which is not true of everyone I may disagree with.
I won't try to debate your leaving since you feel you must, but don't
mistake that for tacit agreement.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

On 5/27/01 4:51 AM S. Apollonius Draco (hendrik.meuleman@--------) wrote:

>Salvete, Citizens of New Rome,
>
>
>This will most likely be one of the last times that I'm addressing you.
>Today, I am resigning. By this action I give up my position as scriba to
>Aedilis Maior, as legatus and scriba to my propraetor Lutecio, as Lupercus
>Fabianus, and as Coryphaeus and Musaeus of two collegia in the Sodalitas
>Musarum. I will also terminate the philosophy list, the dignitas forum and
>the iuventas list, and turn over moderation of the Gallia lists to my
>frater Tiberius. It was a tough decision to make, but in the end I always
>came to the same conclusion: a place like Nova Roma, that is at many times
>so different from my own moral and philosophical standards, isn't right
>for me, and would only be a source of frustration for me, and a source of
>irritation for my inevitable opponents.
>

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

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