Subject: [novaroma] Re: Resignation
From: "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 00:17:17 -0000
--- In novaroma@--------, Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@c...> wrote:
>
> M. Octavius Germanicus omnibus civibus SPD,
>
> Nova Roma has suffered a great loss today. One of our most active and
> energetic citizens, Sextus Apollonius Draco, has left us. In his last
> weeks here, he was subject to a barrage of harassment and insult,
> merely because he advocated some unpopular ideas.
>
> On many occasions his opinions were dismissed because of his youth,
> with his detractors using such demeaning and patronizing terms as
> "kid" and "boy", knowing full well that he objected to being addressed
> as such. One of Draco's opponents was crass and boorish enough to
> respond to news of his offense at the term with "I apologise if I
> hurt the boy's feelings", which is no apology at all.
>
> This was in retribution for Draco's having posted evidence that that
> "citizen", Gaius Cassius Nerva, had in fact been accepted prematurely
> in violation of the Edictum Cornelia et Maria de Civitate Eiuranda.
>
> Because Draco had dared to point out that one of the laws currently
> being voted on had already been violated, he was villified and accused
> of trying to manipulate the election.
>
> When the election had ended, the attacks on Draco continued. He was
> called a "traitor" and a "communist". He was the subject of a vicious
> parody, written by the ex-citizen whose identity he had exposed. This
> puerile and insipid work features a character known as "Puellarius"
> who is a "devoted and brainwashed follower" of Draco's paterfamilias,
> supports communism and is made to utter the line "I love male asses".
>
> Yet no protests were made to this grossly unfair characterization on
> the Sodalitas Musarum mailing list, the area where Draco did most of
> his work, a list where he should have been respected and defended.
> Indeed, the author of this garbage was even complimented on it,
> perhaps encouraging him to intensify his attack.
>
> A dedicated and productive citizen has been chased away, while the
> rest of us sat here and let it happen. This is a shameful day
> in the history of Nova Roma.
>
> Valete,
> M. Octavius Germanicus
>
> --
> M. Octavius Germanicus
> Propraetor, Lacus Magni
> Curator Araneum et Senator

Salvete,

I Concur with the Senator's view that we have lost one of our best
citizens when Draco resigned. I did NOT agree with some of his views,
but I respect them, and I have to point out that he often did a better
job than his opponents in making those views known.

As to those who insisted on calling him "kid","boy", or other names I
have allready made my views on that known in my "Men and Boys" statement.

I was one of the citizens who protested when Draco made his
accusations against Nerva, and I repeat what I said then, that was a
matter that should have been presented to the Praetors. My problem was
NOT that he presented the evidence, but rather the manner in which he
chose to do so.

As to Nerva's little story, I was presented as a slaver in it, and
laughed it off. Cruel Biting Satire is a Roman tradition, and if you
wish to live in the public eye, then I advise you to grow a very thick
hide. Do I like it? No, but I perfer it to restrictions on speach.

I tend to think that the "kid" crap played a big role in his leaving
us, Nobody enjoys having his ideas lightly dismissed, and using his
age as an excuse made it worse. It's just as bad as rejecting a
Woman's idea because it came from a "dame"

However I don't think this was the only reason he left. The recently
passed Leges also played a part in his decession to leave us.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus




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Subject: RE: [novaroma] Resignation
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 17:28:27 -0700 (PDT)
Salvete omnes; et salve, Marce Senti Claudi.

--- Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@--------> wrote:
> I find this behaviour childish. I mean, you are leaving because you
> do not
> get your own way. Perhaps it is for the best.
>
> Marcus Sentius Claudius

First of all, wouldn't you think it was even more childish to insist in
calling him something he clearly said he did not want to be called? And
was not it very childish to dismiss his ideas because of his age/
friends/associations instead of making a proper rebuttal? And how would
you react to being automatically attacked by some people, no matter
what you said?

Secondly, let me assure you that it is NOT for the best. Besides his
political activities, Draco was a very active citizen who took an
important part in the organization of the Provincia Gallia and of the
Sodalitas Musarum. Or would you perhaps be willing to undertake the
same level of effort and to dedicate as much time to Nova Roma as Draco
did?



=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

__________________________________________________
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Subject: [novaroma] Re: Resignations
From: "Marcus Cassius Julianus" <cassius622@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 00:42:05 -0000
--- In novaroma@--------, "Teleri ferch N--------n" <rckovak@e...> wrote:

> I also notice that M. Apollonius Formosanus is strangely quiet.
Why hasn't he resigned? He obviously enjoys stirring the pot & then
sitting back watching it boil. I certainly understand our consul's
disgust with him.

Salvete,

My belief is that M. Apollonius Formosanus will not be leaving Nova
Roma. Although he has publically stated his disgust for this
Micronation many times, and I have seen proof from his friends and
his own hand that he has deliberately tried to stir up discontent,
coerce others into quitting Citizenship, and has attempted to form a
rival and Anti-NR micronation, he is addicted to the crowds here. So
long as Formosanus has a huge audience to "preach" to, he will stay.

I say this without a trace of personal dislike toward Formosanus as a
person. I am not "disgusted" with him as my co-Consul is, but I have
been saddened at his feelings for Nova Roma for some months now. I've
offered assistance to him in the past to help set things right, but
this help has been refused.

I know this isn't the time to speak of such things, when other, more
productive Citizens have left us. But seeing your post above has
brought my spirits even lower. That those who had some liking for us
should leave, and that some who have no goodwill toward us should
stay is unfortunate.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus




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Subject: RE: [novaroma] Resignation
From: Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 10:36:15 +1000
Ave Gnaeus Salix Astur.

There is no point in getting in an e-mail war as this is certainly not what
I want to happen - the simple fact is that people have to learn to be part
of a community - with that will come differing views - the fact is that he
has now turned his back on that community - I find that behaviour childish -
indeed - I would have made the same comments if he was 57 instead of 17 -
that is what I think - I have never dismissed his ideas - although he did
make silly generalisations about me at some stage to make his argument - if
he wishes to leave it is perhaps for the best - if we have citizens in the
community that are not wanting to be part of Nova - then farewell.

It is NOT A CLUB - it is a new community we are trying to build - a new
nation - what part of this cannot you understand ...

What is it with Europe anyway - is there something in the water over there -
every five minutes people seem to be making oaths that pledge elegance and
loyalty for the rest of their lives, saying that you are the best friends
that they have ever had - even though they have never met you in person !!!
- the next minute they are resigning over the spilt milk in the kitchen or
the cookies were not cooked to their satisfaction.

BOO HOO !!!

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur [mailto:salixastur@--------]
Sent: Monday, 28 May 2001 10:28 Am
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: RE: [novaroma] Resignation


Salvete omnes; et salve, Marce Senti Claudi.

--- Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@--------> wrote:
> I find this behaviour childish. I mean, you are leaving because you
> do not
> get your own way. Perhaps it is for the best.
>
> Marcus Sentius Claudius

First of all, wouldn't you think it was even more childish to insist in
calling him something he clearly said he did not want to be called? And
was not it very childish to dismiss his ideas because of his age/
friends/associations instead of making a proper rebuttal? And how would
you react to being automatically attacked by some people, no matter
what you said?

Secondly, let me assure you that it is NOT for the best. Besides his
political activities, Draco was a very active citizen who took an
important part in the organization of the Provincia Gallia and of the
Sodalitas Musarum. Or would you perhaps be willing to undertake the
same level of effort and to dedicate as much time to Nova Roma as Draco
did?



=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

__________________________________________________
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Subject: [novaroma] Re: European Hindsight
From: "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 01:07:15 -0000
--- In novaroma@--------, Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> wrote:

SNIP

> In America, some aspects of political culture are deeply imbedded in
> the very hearts and souls of its citizens. Some of these ideas
> (although highly worthy of merit) did not belong to the ancient Roman
> credo, but we hear them here everyday. I am talking about things like
> the responsability of the government in front of its citizens, the
> freedom of speech, the equality in front of the law, and so on. Why
> should these be more respected than the "socialistic" ideas imbedded in
> the hearts and souls of every European, whether we like it or not?
>
> When we strive to recreate "the best of Rome", we have to accept to
> make a few concessions to our time. As we have banished slavery and
> granted equal rights for women, there will be other aspects of Roman
> tradition that we will be willing to adapt to the modern times. I am
> not saying that Nova Roma should become a socialist Utopia; but some
> ideas should not be immediatly discarded because of their socialistic
> origin.
>
>
>
> =====
> Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
> Gnaeus Salix Astur.
> Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

Salvete,

I will open by saying that there are few people who dislike Socialism
more than I do, however my reasons for this belong on a Macro National
Policital Forum, not here. Despite my feelings for this form of
government I have to tell you that there WERE some parts of the Roman
government that were "socialist" by todays policital definitations.
The Corn dole and the Ager Publicus are hardly capitalistic ideas.

Freedom of speach was a Roman concept during the Republican era,
though not during the Empire. As an illustration during Caesar's
Triumph his soldiers shouted out warnings to the people of Roma to
gaurd their wives and daughters because they were returning with "The
Bald Whoremonger"

Equality before the law was an alien idea to the Romans. Some People
were considered better than others. A Patrician was better than a
Pleb. Someone who's ancestor was a Consul was better than someone's
who's ancestors were Praetors. A Novus Homo was an affront pushing his
way in among his betters. A member of the second class was better than
someone from the headcount. Testimony during a trail considered the
social status of the witness.
(Of course equality before the law is an inovation I support)

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus




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Subject: [novaroma] NJCL Convention
From: Iulia66198@--------
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 21:10:06 EDT
Salvete Omnes...

The National Junior Classical League will be holding it's 48th annual
convention in New Orleans at Tulane University from July 17-22 this year. I
wonder: do we happen to have any cives among us who reside in the New
Orleans area, and who will be home at this time? If there would be some way
for us to leave NR flyers/info at the convention, it might prove to be a
great way to introduce ourselves to both the Junior and Senior Classical
Leagues who will have members in attendance. From what I was able to glean
from their website, as of August 2000, the Junior Classical League alone had
over *52,000* members nationwide.

I have sent a message to one of the members in an attempt to find out whether
or not this would be a possibility for us (or if no one is in the NO area,
but could send me some flyers to forward on [I'd do it if I had a printer
that could handle them!]). In the meantime, I'm including a partial list of
info below from their website on some of the highlights of this year's
convention, for anyone who might be interested.

Iulia Cassia

************************

Convention Theme:
Vultus ac frons animi ianua - The face and its expression are the door of
the soul
(Commentariolum Petitionis Consulatus 11, attributed to Q. Cicero)

Costume Contest
Female - Cumaean Sibyl
Male - Saturn
Couple - Cupid and Psyche

Creative Arts Selections
Boy's Dramatic Interpretation
Girl's Dramatic Interpretation
Latin Oratory

Spirit Day Themes
Wednesday - T-Shirt Day: Make a Statement
Thursday - Carpe Noctem
Friday - The Game of Life
Saturday - Purple and Gold Toga Day: New Orleans Style

Romecoming!
New Art Recognition academic contest



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Subject: RE: [novaroma] Canada Orientalis New Website
From: Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 11:25:00 +1000
Ave Amulius Claudius Petrus

This is absolutely fantastic - Congrats !!!!!


Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: Amulius Claudius Petrus [mailto:pkkt@--------]
Sent: Monday, 28 May 2001 10:42 Am
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Canada Orientalis New Website


Just finished up the new site. Wondering what people think.

Its at http://www.freehost.nu/members/canorien/



Hinc est mei oratio!

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Civis Canada Orientalis




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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: European Hindsight
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 18:28:52 -0700 (PDT)
Salvete omnes; et salve, Druse.

--- Lucius Sicinius Drusus <lsicinius@--------> wrote:

<<snipped>>

> I will open by saying that there are few people who dislike Socialism
> more than I do, however my reasons for this belong on a Macro
> National
> Policital Forum, not here.

I guess this is the main problem. We do not mean the same thing for
"socialism". In Spain, there is a Socialist Party, and believe me,
fewer people in the World have proved to be more in favour of private
property. For me, and because of my background, "socialism" has little
to do with Karl Marx. It is just the name of one of the two main
political parties in Europe (mostly called social-democracy), and is
somehow akin to the Democratic Party in the US, with a few differences.

Believe me, that people is far, far away from being "revolutionary".
So, as you can see, in Europe "socialism" does not exactly mean a
different form of government any more. It's major point is that the
Welfare State should be mantained. And they are now even surrendering
that idea.

> (Of course equality before the law is an inovation I support)

So do I, Druse, so do I. But, as you said, it was not a Roman idea.
What if someone (not necessarily me, remember) supported "socialistic"
ideas for Nova Roma? Would you rebate them just because of the term
"socialist"?


=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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Subject: [novaroma] Canada Orientalis New Website
From: Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 20:42:15 -0400
Just finished up the new site. Wondering what people think.

Its at http://www.freehost.nu/members/canorien/



Hinc est mei oratio!

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Civis Canada Orientalis




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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Canada Orientalis New Website
From: "Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 01:48:16 -0000
Salve Amulius Claudius Petrus:

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!! AVE!!!

I am so thrilled!!!!! My you work quickly! And with great expertise! I
figured you were going to tinker with this project in your spare time.
Civites, he has done this in about 24 hours.........

And, the site is absolutely beautiful! You have done some homework !!

I am so thrilled, and I am sure all in the provincia are too.

Marce Octavi, could you add this link to the provincia page of our main Nova
Roma site? Thanks in advance.

Again, Amuli Claudi, from the bottom of my heart, thank you!!!

I am so happy I could cry !!! Ave!!!

Oh.......

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
Propraetrix pro temp
Canada Orientalis Provincia


>From: Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: <novaroma@-------->
>Subject: [novaroma] Canada Orientalis New Website
>Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 20:42:15 -0400
>
>Just finished up the new site. Wondering what people think.
>
>Its at http://www.freehost.nu/members/canorien/
>
>
>
>Hinc est mei oratio!
>
>--
>Amulius Claudius Petrus
>Civis Canada Orientalis
>

_________________________________________________________________________
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Subject: RE: [novaroma] Canada Orientalis New Website
From: Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 11:52:39 +1000
Salve Amulius Claudius Petrus:

With your permission, can we use this as a template for the Australian one
we are starting !!!! ???

I love the Graphics that you have used !!!

Marcus Sentius Claudius
Legate Australia

-----Original Message-----
From: Pompeia Cornelia [mailto:scriba_forum@--------]
Sent: Monday, 28 May 2001 11:48 Am
To: novaroma@--------; haase@konoko.com
Cc: Canada_Orientalis_NR@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Canada Orientalis New Website


Salve Amulius Claudius Petrus:

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!! AVE!!!

I am so thrilled!!!!! My you work quickly! And with great expertise! I
figured you were going to tinker with this project in your spare time.
Civites, he has done this in about 24 hours.........

And, the site is absolutely beautiful! You have done some homework !!

I am so thrilled, and I am sure all in the provincia are too.

Marce Octavi, could you add this link to the provincia page of our main Nova

Roma site? Thanks in advance.

Again, Amuli Claudi, from the bottom of my heart, thank you!!!

I am so happy I could cry !!! Ave!!!

Oh.......

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
Propraetrix pro temp
Canada Orientalis Provincia


>From: Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: <novaroma@-------->
>Subject: [novaroma] Canada Orientalis New Website
>Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 20:42:15 -0400
>
>Just finished up the new site. Wondering what people think.
>
>Its at http://www.freehost.nu/members/canorien/
>
>
>
>Hinc est mei oratio!
>
>--
>Amulius Claudius Petrus
>Civis Canada Orientalis
>

_________________________________________________________________________
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**********************************************************************



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Subject: [novaroma] Re: European Hindsight
From: "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 01:54:51 -0000
--- In novaroma@--------, Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> wrote:
> Salvete omnes; et salve, Druse.
>
> --- Lucius Sicinius Drusus <lsicinius@--------> wrote:
>
> <<snipped>>
>
> > I will open by saying that there are few people who dislike Socialism
> > more than I do, however my reasons for this belong on a Macro
> > National
> > Policital Forum, not here.
>
> I guess this is the main problem. We do not mean the same thing for
> "socialism". In Spain, there is a Socialist Party, and believe me,
> fewer people in the World have proved to be more in favour of private
> property. For me, and because of my background, "socialism" has little
> to do with Karl Marx. It is just the name of one of the two main
> political parties in Europe (mostly called social-democracy), and is
> somehow akin to the Democratic Party in the US, with a few differences.

I also dislike the US Democratic Party ;o)
>
> Believe me, that people is far, far away from being "revolutionary".
> So, as you can see, in Europe "socialism" does not exactly mean a
> different form of government any more. It's major point is that the
> Welfare State should be mantained. And they are now even surrendering
> that idea.

I'm not too fond of the wellfare state either ;o)
>
> > (Of course equality before the law is an inovation I support)
>
> So do I, Druse, so do I. But, as you said, it was not a Roman idea.
> What if someone (not necessarily me, remember) supported "socialistic"
> ideas for Nova Roma? Would you rebate them just because of the term
> "socialist"?
>
>
> =====
> Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
> Gnaeus Salix Astur.
> Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

I am willing to look at an idea based on it's merits, regardless of
the policital label that is attached to it. As an example the idea for
the US Interstate Highway system is based on Hitler's development of
the Autobhans. I hate Hitler, but have to admit that the highway
system was a good idea. I also liked the old Volkswagen's and they
wouldn't have existed without Hitler. An Idea's merit is the important
thing, not who came up with it, or what other ideas they might have.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus




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Subject: [novaroma] Re: Canada Orientalis New Website
From: "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 02:05:40 -0000
--- In novaroma@--------, "Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> Salve Amulius Claudius Petrus:
>
> THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!! AVE!!!
>
> I am so thrilled!!!!! My you work quickly! And with great
expertise! I
> figured you were going to tinker with this project in your spare time.
> Civites, he has done this in about 24 hours.........
>
> And, the site is absolutely beautiful! You have done some homework !!
>
> I am so thrilled, and I am sure all in the provincia are too.
>
> Marce Octavi, could you add this link to the provincia page of our
main Nova
> Roma site? Thanks in advance.
>
> Again, Amuli Claudi, from the bottom of my heart, thank you!!!
>
> I am so happy I could cry !!! Ave!!!
>
> Oh.......
>
> Bene vale,
> Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
> Propraetrix pro temp
> Canada Orientalis Provincia
>

Congrats to Amulius Claudius Petrus for an OUTSTANDING job!!!

Also there is an edicta that you can get a subdomain of the
novaroma.org URL. see
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/edicts/aedile-2000-12-15.html

This excellent job deserves a CanadaOrientalis.novaroma.org listing.

Drusus




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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Canada Orientalis New Website
From: "Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa" <vipsaniusagrippa@-------->
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 20:25:09 -0600
Salve

WOW!!!!!!!!!!

I bow before such an amazing site. You have put me to shame, sir.

Bravo.

Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa
Webmaster of Canada Occidentalis
canada-occidentalis.tripod.com/canadaoccidentalis/


>From: Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: <novaroma@-------->
>Subject: [novaroma] Canada Orientalis New Website
>Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 20:42:15 -0400
>
>Just finished up the new site. Wondering what people think.
>
>Its at http://www.freehost.nu/members/canorien/
>
>
>
>Hinc est mei oratio!
>
>--
>Amulius Claudius Petrus
>Civis Canada Orientalis
>

_________________________________________________________________________
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Subject: [novaroma] Re: Resignation of the Governor of Gaul
From: "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 02:28:21 -0000
--- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave,
>
> This is a bit of a rant...<Just a warning>
>
> I am getting frustrated at the continual resignations of Oath Bearing
> Magistrates. (Yes I know I was one for 12 hours and I am still
> disgusted at my own action, and I did come back after 12 hours.) When
> Magistrates resign they are violating the own Oath of Office they took!
> They are shoowing utter contempt to Nova Roma and more importantly they
> are showing their utter contempt of the People of Nova Roma. The People
> that they are elected or were appointed to serve! I think something
> must be done. Because an Oath is supposed to be a sacred statement that
> one states to uphold the Constitution, even the Religio, by swearing to
> the Gods. What does that say about the person who has taken the Oath?
> I think we need stronger laws when a magistrate leaves NR and fails to
> come back after his 9 day reconsideration.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

I Fully agree with Lucius Cornelius on this.

It's bad enough when a privatus resigns his citizenship over some
squable. Think of doing that because of some event in your Macro
Nation! I was disgusted with the outcome of the 1992 US Presidental
election, but the thought of resigning my US Citizenship never entered
my head, and I have the same opinion of my Roman Citizenship.

This matter of magistrates ignoring their sacred oaths, and deserting
their offices and their citizenship is disgusting. As far as I'm
concerned the Propraetor of Gaul not only spit in the faces of the
Senate, and the citizens of his provincia, but also raised his middle
finger at the Gods he swore his oath by.

I would like to see the 6 month waiting peroid for readmitance doubled
for Oath breakers, and a 5 year ban on holding ANY office on their
return. A Second occurance should result in a lifelong banishment.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus




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Subject: RE: [novaroma] Re: Resignation of the Governor of Gaul
From: Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 12:28:57 +1000
Well said Drusus !!!

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
Sent: Monday, 28 May 2001 12:28 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Resignation of the Governor of Gaul


--- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave,
>
> This is a bit of a rant...<Just a warning>
>
> I am getting frustrated at the continual resignations of Oath Bearing
> Magistrates. (Yes I know I was one for 12 hours and I am still
> disgusted at my own action, and I did come back after 12 hours.) When
> Magistrates resign they are violating the own Oath of Office they took!
> They are shoowing utter contempt to Nova Roma and more importantly they
> are showing their utter contempt of the People of Nova Roma. The People
> that they are elected or were appointed to serve! I think something
> must be done. Because an Oath is supposed to be a sacred statement that
> one states to uphold the Constitution, even the Religio, by swearing to
> the Gods. What does that say about the person who has taken the Oath?
> I think we need stronger laws when a magistrate leaves NR and fails to
> come back after his 9 day reconsideration.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

I Fully agree with Lucius Cornelius on this.

It's bad enough when a privatus resigns his citizenship over some
squable. Think of doing that because of some event in your Macro
Nation! I was disgusted with the outcome of the 1992 US Presidental
election, but the thought of resigning my US Citizenship never entered
my head, and I have the same opinion of my Roman Citizenship.

This matter of magistrates ignoring their sacred oaths, and deserting
their offices and their citizenship is disgusting. As far as I'm
concerned the Propraetor of Gaul not only spit in the faces of the
Senate, and the citizens of his provincia, but also raised his middle
finger at the Gods he swore his oath by.

I would like to see the 6 month waiting peroid for readmitance doubled
for Oath breakers, and a 5 year ban on holding ANY office on their
return. A Second occurance should result in a lifelong banishment.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus




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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Something is wrong!
From: Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 21:45:26 -0500
Salvete

> Well, its the nature of politics to attack the person...as well as
> the idea.

I would suggest that it would be better to condemn those who sink to
that level, or at the very least refuse to descend to it oneself, rather
than simply choosing to believe that mud-slinging is an integral part of
politics. Such things do not have to be simply be an unavoidable part
of the nature of politics if we choose to disallow them.

> So I believe they did resign because of the passage of laws. They
> either flat out said it or in the case of Sextus Apollonius implied
> it.

>From Draco's conversations, I would say that he resigned not because he
lost a single political fight, but because he felt the outcome of that
fight to be indicative of Nova Roma's general future--a future that he
did not agree with. If one feels that an organization is working toward
an unhealthy goal, and that one's best efforts will not improve the
situation to any appreciable degree, then it is reasonable and honorable
to bow out and put one's energy to more productive use elsewhere.

In other words, I do not feel that this is a case of Draco crying "sour
grapes" and leaving in a huff. His decision did not come easily or
quickly, and I expect that he is not the only one who saw this past vote
as a bellwether.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Ipsa scientia potestas est."
-Francis Bacon



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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Canada Orientalis New Website
From: "A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 22:48:02 -0400
Salve Amuli Claudi: That's Great.! I think you have done a fantastic job on
it. Gratias tibi ago. It's wonderful to have such talented people in Canada
Orientalis. Again many thanks Amuli Claudi.
Ave atque vale, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, ... Rogator et civis
Canada Orientalis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Amulius Claudius Petrus" <pkkt@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 8:42 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Canada Orientalis New Website


> Just finished up the new site. Wondering what people think.
>
> Its at http://www.freehost.nu/members/canorien/
>
>
>
> Hinc est mei oratio!
>
> --
> Amulius Claudius Petrus
> Civis Canada Orientalis
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Canada Orientalis New Website
From: "Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 02:55:03 -0000
Salvete!!!

Oh, isn't it absolutely excellent Cato?
I am so pleased!!!

Pompeia


>From: "A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: <novaroma@-------->
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Canada Orientalis New Website
>Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 22:48:02 -0400
>
>Salve Amuli Claudi: That's Great.! I think you have done a fantastic job
>on
>it. Gratias tibi ago. It's wonderful to have such talented people in Canada
>Orientalis. Again many thanks Amuli Claudi.
> Ave atque vale, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, ... Rogator et
>civis
>Canada Orientalis
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Amulius Claudius Petrus" <pkkt@-------->
>To: <novaroma@-------->
>Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 8:42 PM
>Subject: [novaroma] Canada Orientalis New Website
>
>
> > Just finished up the new site. Wondering what people think.
> >
> > Its at http://www.freehost.nu/members/canorien/
> >
> >
> >
> > Hinc est mei oratio!
> >
> > --
> > Amulius Claudius Petrus
> > Civis Canada Orientalis
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>

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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Something is wrong!
From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 19:55:24 -0700
Ave,

Just some conmments on the fine words of Senator Titus Labienus,

Fortunatus wrote:
>
> Salvete
>
> > Well, its the nature of politics to attack the person...as well as
> > the idea.
>
> I would suggest that it would be better to condemn those who sink to
> that level, or at the very least refuse to descend to it oneself, rather
> than simply choosing to believe that mud-slinging is an integral part of
> politics. Such things do not have to be simply be an unavoidable part
> of the nature of politics if we choose to disallow them.

Sulla: Yes, the problem is that to date it has not been universailly
condemned. I try not to sink to that level myself (I know that I
probably have in the past), but others seem to wallow in it. Its a
shame....NR could be such a wonderful place if none of us sank to that
level.

> > So I believe they did resign because of the passage of laws. They
> > either flat out said it or in the case of Sextus Apollonius implied
> > it.
>
> >From Draco's conversations, I would say that he resigned not because he
> lost a single political fight, but because he felt the outcome of that
> fight to be indicative of Nova Roma's general future--a future that he
> did not agree with. If one feels that an organization is working toward
> an unhealthy goal, and that one's best efforts will not improve the
> situation to any appreciable degree, then it is reasonable and honorable
> to bow out and put one's energy to more productive use elsewhere.
>
> In other words, I do not feel that this is a case of Draco crying "sour
> grapes" and leaving in a huff. His decision did not come easily or
> quickly, and I expect that he is not the only one who saw this past vote
> as a bellwether.

Sulla: Your probably right, just given the amount of resignations we
have seen today, resembles the pre-planned exodus of the Amici Dignitas
during the Ides of March. At least this is how I see it. And, I do
admit I could be wrong in this POV.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix



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Subject: [novaroma] Recent Events
From: "Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 19:53:13 -0700
Salvete Quiritibus;

As I'm still woefully behind in mail processing, apologies
in advance if something has been missed in my responses
here. There are a few things to be covered and will strive
for brevity and conciseness. The usual disclaimers apply
to this message.

RE: Europeans Leaving

Though I could get into a vast number of specifics on the
most recent 'wave' of resignations, I think this has been
exhaustively covered both now and in the previous months
when such matters were being hotly contested between a
good many of us.

I'm in agreement with Caseo Fabius that there is in fact
a demonstrated propensity for departures of our European-
based cives. I too agree with Cassius, Drusus and others
that it is both cultural and political. Namely, the most
contentious of our issues-seems to come
down to NR legislation. When there is no legislation up for
discussion (or people seeking elective offices,) things
are generally pretty quiet and civil. When not, things
erupt and the vast differences in the US-based political
systems and the European-based systems come glaringly
to light.

I will make an overly-simplistic observation here to
illustrate my *personal* view of the macronational
political differences:

"The most liberal politician in the US would be viewed
as staunchly conservative by many European governments."

Note that I apply no 'judgment' in making this statement;
nor am I trying to start a mail riot over who's is better.
Simply put: we're different, period. Now, let's learn
to deal with it.

As stated by Consul Cassius and others, I fully believe
that the differences are due to language barriers and other
cultural elements as well. Frankly -something we'll just
flat out have to deal with as we move forward. At the moment,
I won't say I have all the answers (or even some of them,)
but it *is* time for us to very *actively* seek the solutions.
Some general ways include increased 'phone' time, increased
face time and so forth. Perhaps, even going as far as to
ensure that more European scriba and Quaestors are assigned
to US-based magistrates and US-based scriba and Quaestors
are assigned to European-based magistrates. -Overly simplistic?
Yes. Just a thought. Feel free to slam away.

RE: Resignations

Undoubtedly, my statements here will be chalked up by some
as 'typical Oppius,' but I will but say the following:

1-We've ALL felt like leaving NR. I was just "there" myself
as recently as a few weeks ago. In fact, am still planning
a leave of absence (partly due to my long road-trip vacation
this summer.)We all get emotional, none of us gets everything
our own way and as supposed "Romans" we need to be able
to both take the heat and dish it out. -This is part of
what being Roman is all about.

2-There are different types of resignations: Those designed
specifically to make a "point" and those that are made for
decidely personal reasons. The latter I can easily deal
with, the public 'woe is me' variety helps nothing including
those leaving and is simply petulant.

3-For the Apolloni that are following the family suit:
This is unfortunate, but I respect the fact that you
are honoring your family. Draco: it's very unfortunate
that you have chosen this path. I wish you well in your
future endeavors.

RE: Political Correctness and communication

We again see the problems with plain speaking and the lack
thereof with people of differing cultures. I can't even
*begin* to comprehend why there needs to be so many threads
on the endless 'who said what and who really meant what.'

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Speak plainly
regardless of your cultural background. Agree, disagree,
speak your mind but do so knowing full well that others will
as well. And above all; I implore you to try and delineate
between mindless political correctness and throwing the virtues
around like they are some Christian biblical credo or something.
Step in, take your shots with everyone else, dish out your own shots;
understand that others may or may not agree with you; take the
common threads of agreement and use those to move forward.
If we spent even a fraction of the time that we do on trying
to psychoanalyze each other and what we "meant"' and what we "said"
and what a bunch of "meanies" we're being to one another, well
we might actually get somewhere. Perhaps we can all stop
being so easily offended?

If you are incapable of such a thing, I suggest you go back
to your history books and reread them. -No, I'm not going to
issue a 'love it or leave it' sentiment; but it *is* something
to consider whether or not your 21st century views are even
remotely compatible with anything resembling antiqua. Beyond
that, I've spoken enough on the subject previously and will now
leave well-enough alone.

RE: Communism and Socialism

Again, many multiple threads of discussion on this and what
people 'think' may or may have not been said in certain posts.
I'm going to follow my own advice here and say -if you think
I or someone else 'said' something that was or wasn't there,
ask them. In person. If there's a linguistic and/or cultural
barrier there -deal with it, set some mutually-acceptable
ground rules and *move on.* (NOT as in leaving, but 'move
on' as in 'move forward')

RE: Open statement to my brethren of other macronational countries:

To all cives living in macronations different from my own:

<statementmode=on>
"I realize we're all different in a good many ways and as
as a US-citizen, realize that we'll have our share of differences.
We may not agree on government, culture or issues of language
or legislation, but it is *vital* that we all work together and
that we be tough enough to withstand the storms and find common
solutions. I for one am always willing to work towards such common
solutions."
<statementmode=off>

Bene valete,
Oppius Flaccus Severus



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Subject: RE: [novaroma] Recent Events
From: Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:10:33 +1000
Ave Oppius Flaccus Severus

Your comments are well founded, however have you thought about my "something
in the water" theory after all Europe is heavily polluted in parts (only
Joking !!!)

.....I think aptitudes is also very much dependant where one is in life -
for instance even though I am an Australian, I am sure that my views do and
will not always accord with my fellow Australian's Gaius Sentius Bruttius
Sura (fellow Legate) as he is a student and is much younger than I, so he
will have differing views on life ..... as will our Governor who will also
have differing views on life and differing views on Nova as well ..... this
does not mean of course that any of us will "spit the dummy" and resign over
disagreements - but we all need to contribute to the community and see the
good times and bad times...All citizens must agree that the needs of the
community will always outnumber the needs of the few - the very selfish view
in my opinion, who wish to exploit the good standing that Nova has entrusted
upon them by giving them positions of authority which they resign in a
whimper ... it is nothing less than pathetic - Oath breakers should be dealt
with ruthlessly.

I have seen this rubbish happen before in small non profit organisations
(which of course we are not) we people resign when they do not get there own
way.

My views respectfully of course....

Vale

Marcus Sentius Claudius


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Subject: [novaroma] Where are My Manners?
From: "Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 03:14:04 -0000
Salvete Omnes:

It suddenly occurred to me that I did not congratulate Oppius Flaccus
Severus on his election to the position of Quaestor.

Well, a belated congrats, Oppi.

Bene valete,
Pompeia Cornelia

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Subject: [novaroma] Pro Draco
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:31:23 +1000 (EST)
Salvete omnes,

I am here to speak on behalf of most people who had
some private conversations, some dealings with, or
perhaps even knew Draco. I can personally say that I
have never in my time met any youth with the kind of
vigour or devotion he brought to Nova Roma. It was
Draco who created a youth sodalitas for those of us
youth who could not have an effective say in any other
way than to vote. It was Draco who devoted a great
deal of time and effort to the sodalitas musarum. It
was Draco who gave of his time to help his provincia.
Also it was he who gave some of himself to the
religio. A man I for one would have been honored to
meet in real life. I say man, for his patience, calm
and steadfastness should be seen as a model for many
of us. I do not say, like many others before me have
said, that I agreed with all of his views....but that
is to be expected. There have been many views that
have been going around that I have not agreed with,
but I have always tried to follow Draco's example in
being temperate and level-headed (though I know I have
not always succeeded).

I read in censor Sulla's post that part of politics
was to defeat one's opponents. But one of the
victories of defeating one's opponents is that they
may live to fight another day. After all, if a man
eventually defeats all his enemies and they "melt
away", what is to stop him from donning the mantle of
absolutist rule (Please Note: this is not a specific
refernce, rather a generalised one). One of the marks
of democracy and republicanism is that two opposing
thoughts or ideals help to generate a better way of
life through carefully debated and discussed
ideas....which is what Draco brought us. Often he was
dismissed due to his youth, but none can dismiss,
though it was present to those who knew and respected
him, his personal auctoritas was tangible to all, as
can be attested by those who have spoken for him not
to leave and highlighted his good attributes. He will
be missed greatly, as he was a great contributor not
only to the list, but to Nova Roma in general.

Ave atque vale mi Draco. Your presence will be missed.

Valete bene omnes,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

Legatus Australia Medius
Sacerdos Mars Invictus

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Subject: [novaroma] Pro Draco
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:31:23 +1000 (EST)
Salvete omnes,

I am here to speak on behalf of most people who had
some private conversations, some dealings with, or
perhaps even knew Draco. I can personally say that I
have never in my time met any youth with the kind of
vigour or devotion he brought to Nova Roma. It was
Draco who created a youth sodalitas for those of us
youth who could not have an effective say in any other
way than to vote. It was Draco who devoted a great
deal of time and effort to the sodalitas musarum. It
was Draco who gave of his time to help his provincia.
Also it was he who gave some of himself to the
religio. A man I for one would have been honored to
meet in real life. I say man, for his patience, calm
and steadfastness should be seen as a model for many
of us. I do not say, like many others before me have
said, that I agreed with all of his views....but that
is to be expected. There have been many views that
have been going around that I have not agreed with,
but I have always tried to follow Draco's example in
being temperate and level-headed (though I know I have
not always succeeded).

I read in censor Sulla's post that part of politics
was to defeat one's opponents. But one of the
victories of defeating one's opponents is that they
may live to fight another day. After all, if a man
eventually defeats all his enemies and they "melt
away", what is to stop him from donning the mantle of
absolutist rule (Please Note: this is not a specific
refernce, rather a generalised one). One of the marks
of democracy and republicanism is that two opposing
thoughts or ideals help to generate a better way of
life through carefully debated and discussed
ideas....which is what Draco brought us. Often he was
dismissed due to his youth, but none can dismiss,
though it was present to those who knew and respected
him, his personal auctoritas was tangible to all, as
can be attested by those who have spoken for him not
to leave and highlighted his good attributes. He will
be missed greatly, as he was a great contributor not
only to the list, but to Nova Roma in general.

Ave atque vale mi Draco. Your presence will be missed.

Valete bene omnes,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

Legatus Australia Medius
Sacerdos Mars Invictus

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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Where are My Manners?
From: Andrea Gladia Kyrinia <andrea_gladia@-------->
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 20:31:26 -0700 (PDT)
Salvete!


--- Pompeia Cornelia <scriba_forum@--------> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes:
> It suddenly occurred to me that I did not congratulate Oppius Flaccus
> Severus on his election to the position of Quaestor.
> Well, a belated congrats, Oppi.

Argg! When did this happen? I missed it in the sea of posts! My own
apologies, and a belated congrats to you, Severus!



Valete,

=====
Andrea Gladia Kyrinia
Apollinis Templi Sacerdotis
Materfamilias of Gladia
*******************************************
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AIM: Kyrene Ariadne / la Amberman ICQ: 6663573
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Subject: [novaroma] Re: Where are My Manners?
From: oppiusflaccus@--------
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 04:16:05 -0000
Salve Andrea Gladia et Omnes;

--- In novaroma@--------, Andrea Gladia K--------ia <andrea_gladia@-------->
<snipped>

Argg! When did this happen? I missed it in the sea of posts! My
own apologies, and a belated congrats to you, Severus!

OFS: Gratias multas for the kind words! It actually happened
at the same time as the status of the passages of the various
Leges was announced. Quaestorial elections aren't quite as
exciting as some of the other issues up for discussion. :-)

Also, I haven't 'cemented' the election with my oath yet
due the provisions of the Cursus -but will be able to
assume duties formally tomorrow.

Bene valete,
Oppius Flaccus Severus (Almost...officially Quaestor :-)


>
<snipped>




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Subject: [novaroma] Re: Where are My Manners?
From: oppiusflaccus@--------
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 04:18:18 -0000
Salvete Po et Omnes;

Gratias for the nice words Pompeia! No 'slight of manners'
perceived at all. Given the more dramatic legislation that
my campaign was up against, I didn't expect a lot of
fanfare :-)


Bene valete in Pace Deorum,
Oppius
--- In novaroma@--------, "Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes:
>
> It suddenly occurred to me that I did not congratulate Oppius
Flaccus
> Severus on his election to the position of Quaestor.
>
> Well, a belated congrats, Oppi.
>
> Bene valete,
> Pompeia Cornelia
>
>
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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Pro Draco
From: "Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 04:27:48 -0000
Salvete Omnes:

It would seem we have more than one exceptionally objective and wise young
person in Nova Roma. And, Gai Sente, I know you well enough, I believe, to
say with validity that you make this statement with love and not out of any
political vengeance or ulterior motive.

I don't always agree with Draco either. Heck, I don't always agree with my
mother. But there is much about Draco that has merited by affection and
respect.

And I am speaking as a proud Cornelian who also loves her Pater and
appreciates the good in him too.

Thanks for your wise words, Gai Sente.

Bene valete,
Pompeia Cornelia


>From: Jerry Anguston <gaiussentius@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: [novaroma] Pro Draco
>Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:31:23 +1000 (EST)
>
>Salvete omnes,
>
>I am here to speak on behalf of most people who had
>some private conversations, some dealings with, or
>perhaps even knew Draco. I can personally say that I
>have never in my time met any youth with the kind of
>vigour or devotion he brought to Nova Roma. It was
>Draco who created a youth sodalitas for those of us
>youth who could not have an effective say in any other
>way than to vote. It was Draco who devoted a great
>deal of time and effort to the sodalitas musarum. It
>was Draco who gave of his time to help his provincia.
>Also it was he who gave some of himself to the
>religio. A man I for one would have been honored to
>meet in real life. I say man, for his patience, calm
>and steadfastness should be seen as a model for many
>of us. I do not say, like many others before me have
>said, that I agreed with all of his views....but that
>is to be expected. There have been many views that
>have been going around that I have not agreed with,
>but I have always tried to follow Draco's example in
>being temperate and level-headed (though I know I have
>not always succeeded).
>
>I read in censor Sulla's post that part of politics
>was to defeat one's opponents. But one of the
>victories of defeating one's opponents is that they
>may live to fight another day. After all, if a man
>eventually defeats all his enemies and they "melt
>away", what is to stop him from donning the mantle of
>absolutist rule (Please Note: this is not a specific
>refernce, rather a generalised one). One of the marks
>of democracy and republicanism is that two opposing
>thoughts or ideals help to generate a better way of
>life through carefully debated and discussed
>ideas....which is what Draco brought us. Often he was
>dismissed due to his youth, but none can dismiss,
>though it was present to those who knew and respected
>him, his personal auctoritas was tangible to all, as
>can be attested by those who have spoken for him not
>to leave and highlighted his good attributes. He will
>be missed greatly, as he was a great contributor not
>only to the list, but to Nova Roma in general.
>
>Ave atque vale mi Draco. Your presence will be missed.
>
>Valete bene omnes,
>
>Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura
>
>Legatus Australia Medius
>Sacerdos Mars Invictus
>
>_____________________________________________________________________________
>http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
>- Voice chat, mail alerts, stock quotes and favourite news and lots more!

_________________________________________________________________________
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Subject: [novaroma] One More Resignation
From: "M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 07:07:51 +0200
M. Apollonius Formosanus Aedilis Plebeius, Paterfamilias Gentis
Apolloniae, Moderator et Praeceptor et Redactor Sodalitatis
Latinitatis, atque Amicus Dignitatis

Censoribus Senatusque Novae Romae atque omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Many will be glad that I am resigning my citizenship in Nova Roma.
Many - perhaps mostly less loud a presence - will regret it,
including I myself. Attend me *one* more time:

I have found Nova Roma to be a place in which saying something is
democratic is not greeted with approbation. A place where at least
one sexual minority group is deliberately singled out for onerous
discrimination. A place where a perfectly legal organisation that
might be thought of as a human rights association or a liberal
political party (i.e. the Amici Dignitatis) was treated as though its
existence was a plot to overthrow the Republic. (But somehow
macronations seem to flourish well enough with such organisations,
and the regimes that try to oppose them are thought of as
dictatorships...)

I have devoted my ethical/political life as a man and as a
philosopher to speading democracy, freedom from all forms of
discrimination, and human rights. An organisation like this is not
one I can any longer feel comfortable supporting or lending my name
to. I have done my very best to change things here so that people
could cultivate their Romanitas in an atmosphere decent and fit for
enlightened dual citizens of normal modern democracies. I have
failed. I apologise to everyone who has suffered because of that,
first of all to Lucius Marius Peregrinus, but also to all those past,
present and future whose hopes for a fair, free and open Nova Roma I
have failed to further despite my best go at it.

I am not leaving now because I have lost heart for the battle in
itself or because I am particularly distressed by the hatred,
invective and lies directed against me of late or the patronising
tones of Consul Iulianus. I am leaving primarily because most of my
friends and allies have left, either on the memorable Ides of March
or now. It might have been better if they had all stayed to fight
too, but it is now a proven and tested fact of Nova Roman life that a
majority of the decent and liberal who might balance the political
spectrum here eventually become so disgusted that they leave, even if
they have acquired various honours and penetrated the Oligarchy
itself - for example Vado and M. Marcius Rex. The minority who remain
are thus unsupported by numbers. That being the case, I have lost
hope for Nova Roma.

I wish to leave you all with a warning: We have in sometimes speaking
of ultra-rightist and Neo-Fascist tendencies here not been hurling
around terms of abuse at random or for effect. I and others have
identified Q. Fabius Maximus and Festus/Nerva as having such
tendencies. The former, for example, recently sent Draco a lengthy
letter laudatory of Nazi achievement and comparing Rome with this
type of ideology. Festus (Nerva) of course spoke sumilar words on
this Main List some months ago, and referred all of us to a Nazi
site. He has also spoken very anti-democratic words in arguments with
me and others in the organising committee for the Sodalitas Musarum,
in which he also attacked American democracy as a man clearly its
bitter enemy. Sulla is only on the periphery of this group, but has
sometimes expressed similar sympathies.

I shall not be in Nova Roma to suffer from any of this, but I would
not like to see an interest in Rome and Roman re-enactment become
associated with anything fascistic or Neo-Nazi on the internet or
with any responsible macronational authorities due to future
activites of Nova Roma. I urge you, cives, to watch out for
condemnations of democracy and the use of the word "republic" as
though it was an *alternative* to democracy instead of a form of
democracy. This might superficially look like a legitimate historical
discussion of the nature of the Roman Respublica, but sometimes
elements of the ultra-rightest usage have crept in. Non-Americans
here especially should be aware of this U.S. ultra-rightist use of
the word.

I would like to address you, Censor Sulla, especially: I liked and
respected you very much when you single-handedly eliminted the
backlog in citizenship applications and got me into Nova Roma, nor
lacked a kind and helpful word for me. If we had been able to become
friends and allies thereafter, perhaps it would have been good for
both of us and for Nova Roma. Unfortunately you soon thereafter began
to persecute Marius, and you let your own sense of pride and
stubbornness push you far too far and long in that matter. It was not
good for the Respublica or anyone else, and the victory of your
edictum text in the recent vote cannot change that. I do not know how
much this was due to your personal prejudice against transsexuals or
how much it stemmed from Fabius Maximus, Cincinnatus, Vedius or
others egging you on, but it was the kind of deed that was so far
beyond the pale in terms of fairness and kindness that it made it
impossible for us to unite our forces for the good of Nova Roma.

Sulla - go and get that law degree you have been promising yourself.
Put Nova Roma in perspective and don't make dominating others here
such a priority in your life. You will be happier and so will Nova
Roma. Most people of my political persuasions loathe you. I do not. I
agree with many of your gentiles that you have a good human side to
your nature too. And I wish you all the best in anything you may do
in Nova Roma or out of it that is kind, fair and honest.

Quirites, I would also like to put it on public record here that I
have personally received various private letters from Q. Fabius
Maximus of a scurrilous and hate-filled nature and implying that
members of sexual minorities might best be killed. Also one that
others I showed it to for counsel felt to be a death threat. It is
ironic that the author of our anti-stalking bill should be guilty of
such behaviour - but then he wrote into his law that sitting
magistates could not be prosecuted under it... I also note that
making him, a professional pornographer, a pontifex convinced me that
the religious leadership of Nova Roma lacked moral authority or
judgement. Despite his historical scholarship and his ability to be
personally charming when he wishes to, I consider him to be a far
more dangerous person than Sulla, and I urge you all to watch him
carefully.

There are honest and decent friends of mine still here in Nova Roma
who do not have plans to leave at present. I shall refrain from
mentioning their names here, as in a political environment moving
dramatically to the right due to the outflux of the liberals, it
might be that a blessing from me might prove a figurative kiss of
death. I shall instead contact some of them privately, but let me
publically say that I have appreciated every letter encouraging me in
my fight for freedom and justice here, even from those who did not in
any sense belong to my "faction".

Disposition of Responsibilities:

Gens Apollonia: I appoint Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix to take over
as Pater Familias. If he does not wish this position, he may use my
Paterfamilal power to appoint an alternative. I have appointed him
because he is the most active remaining member of the Gens Apollonia,
which seemed to me the most relevant criterion. In accordance with
the Principia of the Gens, which allow a person leaving Nova Roma for
reasons of conscience to remain in the Gens, although no longer
registered by the Censors, I request of the new Paterfamilias
permission to so remain, and I shall help him to move and adjust the
Gens website.

Public Office: I resign my position as Aedilis Plebeius with
apologies to the People. I affirm that to this moment of laying down
my office I have upheld my oath of office to the best of my
conscience and in good faith - despite unfounded and reckless
accusations to the contrary - and I nowhere swore to serve a full
year's term. My Scriba Aedilicius, Petrus Artorius Longinus, I
release from service with my thanks and appreciation. If, as I have
supposed, I am still Scriba Censorius to Censor Sulla (although he
relieved me of my active duties when I became Aedile), I resign from
this position as well. If I am not, then my resignation is
unnecessary.

Sodalitas Latinitatis: I resign my positions as Moderator and
Praeceptor and Redactor and Triumvir of the Sodalitas Latinitatis. No
longer being a Nova Roman civis, I request the Scriba to move my name
from "sodales" and into "amici", as I intend to remain in the
Sodalitas in that capacity, as is my right. I advise the Tresviri
that they must elect a new Moderator and Praeceptor from among their
number. (Only two of them remaining, a choice of new Redactor will
not be necessary.)

LATIN STUDENTS: As Praeceptor of the Sodalitas Latinitatis I
fulfilled my teaching duties partly through the establishment of the
Schola Latina. The Schola Latina, however, has never been itself a
part of the Sodalitas Latinitatis or Nova Roma. I shall continue to
operate it as an independent institution for now, and I welcome all
Nova Roman students to remain and learn. The delays in lessons
recently have mostly been due to outside responsibilities, not to any
change in intent.

Citizenship: I hereby resign my citizenship in Nova Roma.

Quirites: I am sorry to go. The micronation Nova Roma is a noble
idea. Otherwise I never would have joined or devoted the hundreds of
hours to improving it that I have. Unfortunately, the group of old
boys who feel comfortable working with each other but not with
newcomers with more liberal values have not made Nova Roma big enough
in spirit to include all of us. Without disrespect to those
remaining, a great deal of talent and very many people with a great
deal to contribute have been driven away because we have been made to
feel that those who got here first wanted to use our labour and
talents, but not listen to our judgements or respond to us
constructively when we have presented the promptings of our
consciences.

Of the six senior magistracies here five are in the hands of
ex-consuls - people who have already been dominant more or less since
the beginning, but still hog the positions of power instead of
sharing it with newcomers. And only those senior magistrates can lay
a bill before the People, worded their way, to get it approved. (The
theoretical possibilities of the Plebeian Assemby remain
theoretical.) Is it any wonder that other citizens with other
concerns and priorities very serious to them (human rights for
example) become terminally frustrated?

That phrase above "promptings of our consciences" was particularly
important, by the way. In Nova Roma there is a peculiar and possibly
willful blindness to the fact that sometimes a person is *compelled*
by his conscience to respond to a moral imperative, and that in doing
so it is not a matter of personal obstinacy that drives one on, but
simply an obedience to a higher call. Many was the ancient Roman who
would have understood that perfectly. The Brutus who overthrew the
monarchical State for example. Here there is an overwhelming and
unhealthy tendency to suppose that power or status quo or authority
or votes are the only reality and that what is *right* counts for
little in itself. I hold on the other hand that what is right is the
sovereign and authoritative reality that must be made manifest
through all our striving.

It may be that with so many of the more eloquent critics gone, the
Main List will seem to become more tranquil. Maybe discussion of
Roman themes instead of just politics will come back more abundantly.
Maybe self-satisfied people will say that we lost citizens are were
not really cut out for Nova Roma and were no great loss. But,
Quirites, when you effectively purge almost all the leadership and a
great part of the active followers of the liberal wing of the Nova
Roman citizenry, it is inevitable that the rightest (authoritarian,
punitive, bureaucratic) wing will gain a very convincing ascendency.
And you may find that it wishes to lead you places you do not really
wish to go. My advice is to remember the democracy and rights in your
macronations, and do not accept any less here.

People have made irrelevant comments recently about economic
ideologies like socialism and communism. We do not have a national
economy, and just instituting taxes will not give us one. However,
traditional governmental classifications like "oligarchy" and
"democracy", and the more modern "liberal" and "authoritarian" *are*
useful in discussing Nova Roma - and those are the terms I and my
allies have used. Nor have any of us asked for "utopias" - we just
want basic things you might find in a standard civilised country like
Germany or the U.S., i.e. democracy and human rights.

I have learned a lot here and made good friends here. But it is also
true that I leave here considerably more cynical about human nature
than when I entered.

I wish all who in the future may work for Libertas and Iustitia in
Nova Roma the best of fortune. I have done my best and failed. But I
followed my conscience and acted sincerely, and that is all a man can
be held responsible for. Results lie in the laps of the gods.

Dii nos bene ament.

VALETE!




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Subject: [novaroma] Re: Canada Orientalis New Website
From: rckovak@--------
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 05:51:23 -0000
Salve,

I must congratulate you on a job very well done! I really like the
website. You've done your Provincia & Nova Roma proud.

Vale bene,
Helena Galeria




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Subject: [novaroma] Re: Pro Draco
From: coriolanus@--------
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 06:24:38 -0000
--- In novaroma@--------, Jerr--------guston <gaiussentius@--------> wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> I am here to speak on behalf of most people who had
> some private conversations, some dealings with, or
> perhaps even knew Draco. I can personally say that I
> have never in my time met any youth with the kind of
> vigour or devotion he brought to Nova Roma. It was
> Draco who created a youth sodalitas for those of us
> youth who could not have an effective say in any other
> way than to vote. It was Draco who devoted a great
> deal of time and effort to the sodalitas musarum. It
> was Draco who gave of his time to help his provincia.
> Also it was he who gave some of himself to the
> religio. A man I for one would have been honored to
> meet in real life. I say man, for his patience, calm
> and steadfastness should be seen as a model for many
> of us. I do not say, like many others before me have
> said, that I agreed with all of his views....but that
> is to be expected. There have been many views that
> have been going around that I have not agreed with,
> but I have always tried to follow Draco's example in
> being temperate and level-headed (though I know I have
> not always succeeded).
>
> I read in censor Sulla's post that part of politics
> was to defeat one's opponents. But one of the
> victories of defeating one's opponents is that they
> may live to fight another day.

Ave

Our honorable censor Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix knows very well old
roman slogan VAE VICTIS. And a lot of resignations in last days seems
to be hang together with this slogan.



After all, if a man
> eventually defeats all his enemies and they "melt
> away", what is to stop him from donning the mantle of
> absolutist rule (Please Note: this is not a specific
> refernce, rather a generalised one). One of the marks
> of democracy and republicanism is that two opposing
> thoughts or ideals help to generate a better way of
> life through carefully debated and discussed
> ideas....which is what Draco brought us. Often he was
> dismissed due to his youth, but none can dismiss,
> though it was present to those who knew and respected
> him, his personal auctoritas was tangible to all, as
> can be attested by those who have spoken for him not
> to leave and highlighted his good attributes. He will
> be missed greatly, as he was a great contributor not
> only to the list, but to Nova Roma in general.
>
> Ave atque vale mi Draco. Your presence will be missed.


I would like to join. Draco's view on this politican snake pit will
be missed.


Vale
Gaius Marcius Coriolanus

>
> Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura
>
> Legatus Australia Medius
> Sacerdos Mars Invictus





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Subject: [novaroma] Resignations
From: TSardonicus@--------
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 00:35:46 EDT
In a message dated 5/27/01 11:08:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
scriba_forum@-------- writes:

> Let each of us take personal responsibility in the building of our res
> publica.

Salvete,

After receiving several e-mails from kind people, I would stay a Citizen of
Nova Roma. For those of you who e-mailed me privately, I extend my heartfelt
thanks.

Let me assure you that my decision to resign was not made on a whim, but was
a product of burnout over some time. My decision to remain is not made on a
whim either. I will not bore you with what is, at this point, simply a
series of gripes, complaints and whining. After I've had some time to work
through some of my ill-feelings, I will offer some (hopefully) constructive
posts on communication, debate, comradery, and belonging.

I apologize to the Citizens of Nova Roma for my petulant behavior. To those
of you who have posted their resignations recently, I can only say that I
hope you will reconsider also.

Valete,
Lucius Tiberius Sardonicus




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Subject: [novaroma] Resignation
From: marciusrufus@--------
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 06:16:03 -0000
Quirites

I, Marcus Marcius Rufus do hereby resign to Nova Roma citizenship.
The major reason of my resignation is that res publica is more Nova
America than Nova Roma, and I do not want to participate on state
like this.

I was not very active, but I carefuly watched all political conflicts
in this list. As I could see that was pure fights for greater power.
And anyone who tries to say the truth was asked to leave.

I want to express my thanks to my paterfamilias Gaius Marcius
Coriolanus. I also want to expres my respect to Marcus Apollonius
Formosanus, Sextus Apollonius Draco, Petrus Artorius Longinus,
Quintus Setorius, all members of gens Marcia, and some others.

Vale
Ex cives Nova Romanus
Marcus Marcius Rufus

" Recipe ferrum "





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Subject: RE: [novaroma] Resignation
From: Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 16:29:16 +1000
Ave Marcus Marcius Rufus

Don't be silly - don't resign - I think it is more US also but who cares - I
am an Ozzie - but look at it this way - it is Nova Roma - a place where we
call all be - to bull shit with Politics - get back to the basics - this is
Roma re born - it goes to all of you who resigned today - come back -
reflect on what this really is - be damned with the Political games ...

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: marciusrufus@-------- [mailto:marciusrufus@--------]
Sent: Monday, 28 May 2001 4:16 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Resignation


Quirites

I, Marcus Marcius Rufus do hereby resign to Nova Roma citizenship.
The major reason of my resignation is that res publica is more Nova
America than Nova Roma, and I do not want to participate on state
like this.

I was not very active, but I carefuly watched all political conflicts
in this list. As I could see that was pure fights for greater power.
And anyone who tries to say the truth was asked to leave.

I want to express my thanks to my paterfamilias Gaius Marcius
Coriolanus. I also want to expres my respect to Marcus Apollonius
Formosanus, Sextus Apollonius Draco, Petrus Artorius Longinus,
Quintus Setorius, all members of gens Marcia, and some others.

Vale
Ex cives Nova Romanus
Marcus Marcius Rufus

" Recipe ferrum "





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Subject: [novaroma] RE: Recent Events
From: "Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 23:34:29 -0700
Salvete Marce Senti et Omnes;

-----Original Message-----
From: oppiusflaccus@-------- [mailto:oppiusflaccus@--------]
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 9:29 PM
To: oppiusflaccus@--------
Subject: Fwd: RE: [novaroma] Recent Events


--- In novaroma@--------, Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@r...> wrote:
Ave Oppius Flaccus Severus

Your comments are well founded, however have you thought about
my "something in the water" theory after all Europe is heavily
polluted in parts (only Joking !!!)

OFS: Hmm..I thought it was air particles! :-) (yes, *also*
kidding mi Quirites)

.....I think aptitudes is also very much dependant where one is in
life -for instance even though I am an Australian, I am sure that my views
do and will not always accord with my fellow Australian's Gaius Sentius
Bruttius Sura (fellow Legate) as he is a student and is much younger than I,
so he will have differing views on life ..... as will our Governor who will
also have differing views on life and differing views on Nova as
well .....

OFS: Fully agreed mi Marce and a good extension of the point;
as individuals we will all never likely agree on every little,
single, solitary infistesimal point; but if we can agree on
some of the really 'big stuff' then we'll do all right. A
lot comes back to the fact that we really a 'social experiment'
of sorts and as others have said with no historical precedent
to guide us, we have a *lot* of good old 'trailblazing' to do.
Having never been part of anything like this before, I can
only liken it to a new company or a new industry -that's never
been done before.

Having lived through the experience before at *that* level,
it was PAINFUL! Resignations *always* were a potential factor.
But in the end, those of us that stuck it out a bit longer
made some good friends and gained some invaluable experience.

this does not mean of course that any of us will "spit the dummy" and
resign over disagreements - but we all need to contribute to the community
and
see the good times and bad times...All citizens must agree that the needs of
the community will always outnumber the needs of the few -

OFS: The needs of the many always outweigh the needs of
the select few in my opinion. Many others have stated that
they feel otherwise -which is of course their opinion; which
I can respect yet disagree with. That doesn't mean that
I don't think that smaller groups or individuals can't or
shouldn't be accomodated whenever possible; but it CANNOT
be at the expense of everyone else.

the very
selfish view in my opinion, who wish to exploit the good standing that Nova
has
entrusted upon them by giving them positions of authority which they resign
in a
whimper ... it is nothing less than pathetic - Oath breakers should
be dealt with ruthlessly.

OFS: A problem that needs to be addressed in the long term.
Unfortunately, we're back to the old 'real vs. non-real' status
of NR in the hearts and minds of some of our cives. Having
gone on at some considerable length with said subject in the
past, I'll spare everyone additional pain and torment of further
words on that at the present time. I'll just say this: in the future,
people joining NR will have a better sense of what it means;
will have to contribute at least fiscally and with legal
codes in place, will have some sort of official consequences
to their actions; especially for elected magistrates.

I have seen this rubbish happen before in small non profit
organisations (which of course we are not) we people resign
when they do not get there own way.

OFS: Unfortunately, we all have and this will not be the
last time either. Those that have real personal issues will
leave quietly and make the appropriate departure arrangements
(as is proper for such a thing,) or one will shout from the
rooftops and use it as a powerful tool to state their position
one last time. Either way, the result is the same. Much like
in a relationship, how one 'leaves' defines the person in
question.

Bene valete

<snipped>


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Subject: [novaroma] Re: Resignations
From: oppiusflaccus@--------
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 06:44:01 -0000
Salve Luci Tiberi!

Let me just say a hearty GRATIAS MULTAS for staying
with us!!! Your hard work and dilligence is much
appreciated by this civis and I look forward
to working with you in the future (and hopefully
learning a thing or two from you in your
capacity as Quaestor.)

We've all been on the 'burnout trail' and I personally
feel that we all should get out and stretch -just
take a break once in a while. I shall be doing so
soon and will plan on coming back with renewed
energy and vigour!

Bene valete in Pace Deorum,
Oppius
-- In novaroma@--------, TSardonicus@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/27/01 11:08:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> scriba_forum@-------- writes:
>
> > Let each of us take personal responsibility in the building of
our res
> > publica.
>
> Salvete,
>
> After receiving several e-mails from kind people, I would stay a
Citizen of
> Nova Roma. For those of you who e-mailed me privately, I extend my
heartfelt
> thanks.
>
<snipped>




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject: Re: [novaroma] Resignation
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 08:32:44 +0100 (BST)
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix Marco Marcio Rufo SPD

You don't have to leave Nova Roma because of the
overflow of Americans in here, I as a European myself
also have this experience. But I created a European
list with the following purpose: If most of the
European citizens of Nova Roma could get together (in
a meeting etc.) or attend some events together and
promote Nova Roma, there would be more Europeans
joining Nova Roma, and we could get as strong or even
stronger as the American part. This is a nice dream I
hope will come true.

So I hope you reconsider your decision and come back.

And if you want to join the European mailing list,
which I moderate, just send an email to
novaroma_europe-subscribe@--------

Vale bene
Cicatrix


--- marciusrufus@-------- wrote: > Quirites
>
> I, Marcus Marcius Rufus do hereby resign to Nova
> Roma citizenship.
> The major reason of my resignation is that res
> publica is more Nova
> America than Nova Roma, and I do not want to
> participate on state
> like this.
>
> I was not very active, but I carefuly watched all
> political conflicts
> in this list. As I could see that was pure fights
> for greater power.
> And anyone who tries to say the truth was asked to
> leave.
>
> I want to express my thanks to my paterfamilias
> Gaius Marcius
> Coriolanus. I also want to expres my respect to
> Marcus Apollonius
> Formosanus, Sextus Apollonius Draco, Petrus Artorius
> Longinus,
> Quintus Setorius, all members of gens Marcia, and
> some others.
>
> Vale
> Ex cives Nova Romanus
> Marcus Marcius Rufus
>
> " Recipe ferrum "
>
>
>


____________________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [novaroma] One More Resignation
From: Kanat Elibol <kelibol@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 11:37:26 +0300


Avete....
Read this...and read this well!
Then tell us that there is nothing wrong with the res publica!
For , if you believe in this, you probably believe in Santa Claus too!
It is clear that for 'some' all will be better!
But not for the people of Nova Roma!
I'm more than sorry to see one more noble man leaving us!
As I said , there is something 'terribly' wrong with the res
publica...and with her people ..
with us!After all it is the 'people' ,it is 'us' which create a nation!
I just hope that the Gods will give us the wisdom of taking lessons
from our past mistakes
together with the strength for defending our beliefs and rights in the
future!
Valete bene...
Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


>M. Apollonius Formosanus Aedilis Plebeius, Paterfamilias Gentis
>Apolloniae, Moderator et Praeceptor et Redactor Sodalitatis
>Latinitatis, atque Amicus Dignitatis
>
>Censoribus Senatusque Novae Romae atque omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
>Many will be glad that I am resigning my citizenship in Nova Roma.
>Many - perhaps mostly less loud a presence - will regret it,
>including I myself. Attend me *one* more time:
>
>I have found Nova Roma to be a place in which saying something is
>democratic is not greeted with approbation. A place where at least
>one sexual minority group is deliberately singled out for onerous
>discrimination. A place where a perfectly legal organisation that
>might be thought of as a human rights association or a liberal
>political party (i.e. the Amici Dignitatis) was treated as though its
>existence was a plot to overthrow the Republic. (But somehow
>macronations seem to flourish well enough with such organisations,
>and the regimes that try to oppose them are thought of as
>dictatorships...)
>
>I have devoted my ethical/political life as a man and as a
>philosopher to speading democracy, freedom from all forms of
>discrimination, and human rights. An organisation like this is not
>one I can any longer feel comfortable supporting or lending my name
>to. I have done my very best to change things here so that people
>could cultivate their Romanitas in an atmosphere decent and fit for
>enlightened dual citizens of normal modern democracies. I have
>failed. I apologise to everyone who has suffered because of that,
>first of all to Lucius Marius Peregrinus, but also to all those past,
>present and future whose hopes for a fair, free and open Nova Roma I
>have failed to further despite my best go at it.
>
>I am not leaving now because I have lost heart for the battle in
>itself or because I am particularly distressed by the hatred,
>invective and lies directed against me of late or the patronising
>tones of Consul Iulianus. I am leaving primarily because most of my
>friends and allies have left, either on the memorable Ides of March
>or now. It might have been better if they had all stayed to fight
>too, but it is now a proven and tested fact of Nova Roman life that a
>majority of the decent and liberal who might balance the political
>spectrum here eventually become so disgusted that they leave, even if
>they have acquired various honours and penetrated the Oligarchy
>itself - for example Vado and M. Marcius Rex. The minority who remain
>are thus unsupported by numbers. That being the case, I have lost
>hope for Nova Roma.
>
>I wish to leave you all with a warning: We have in sometimes speaking
>of ultra-rightist and Neo-Fascist tendencies here not been hurling
>around terms of abuse at random or for effect. I and others have
>identified Q. Fabius Maximus and Festus/Nerva as having such
>tendencies. The former, for example, recently sent Draco a lengthy
>letter laudatory of Nazi achievement and comparing Rome with this
>type of ideology. Festus (Nerva) of course spoke sumilar words on
>this Main List some months ago, and referred all of us to a Nazi
>site. He has also spoken very anti-democratic words in arguments with
>me and others in the organising committee for the Sodalitas Musarum,
>in which he also attacked American democracy as a man clearly its
>bitter enemy. Sulla is only on the periphery of this group, but has
>sometimes expressed similar sympathies.
>
>I shall not be in Nova Roma to suffer from any of this, but I would
>not like to see an interest in Rome and Roman re-enactment become
>associated with anything fascistic or Neo-Nazi on the internet or
>with any responsible macronational authorities due to future
>activites of Nova Roma. I urge you, cives, to watch out for
>condemnations of democracy and the use of the word "republic" as
>though it was an *alternative* to democracy instead of a form of
>democracy. This might superficially look like a legitimate historical
>discussion of the nature of the Roman Respublica, but sometimes
>elements of the ultra-rightest usage have crept in. Non-Americans
>here especially should be aware of this U.S. ultra-rightist use of
>the word.
>
>I would like to address you, Censor Sulla, especially: I liked and
>respected you very much when you single-handedly eliminted the
>backlog in citizenship applications and got me into Nova Roma, nor
>lacked a kind and helpful word for me. If we had been able to become
>friends and allies thereafter, perhaps it would have been good for
>both of us and for Nova Roma. Unfortunately you soon thereafter began
>to persecute Marius, and you let your own sense of pride and
>stubbornness push you far too far and long in that matter. It was not
>good for the Respublica or anyone else, and the victory of your
>edictum text in the recent vote cannot change that. I do not know how
>much this was due to your personal prejudice against transsexuals or
>how much it stemmed from Fabius Maximus, Cincinnatus, Vedius or
>others egging you on, but it was the kind of deed that was so far
>beyond the pale in terms of fairness and kindness that it made it
>impossible for us to unite our forces for the good of Nova Roma.
>
>Sulla - go and get that law degree you have been promising yourself.
>Put Nova Roma in perspective and don't make dominating others here
>such a priority in your life. You will be happier and so will Nova
>Roma. Most people of my political persuasions loathe you. I do not. I
>agree with many of your gentiles that you have a good human side to
>your nature too. And I wish you all the best in anything you may do
>in Nova Roma or out of it that is kind, fair and honest.
>
>Quirites, I would also like to put it on public record here that I
>have personally received various private letters from Q. Fabius
>Maximus of a scurrilous and hate-filled nature and implying that
>members of sexual minorities might best be killed. Also one that
>others I showed it to for counsel felt to be a death threat. It is
>ironic that the author of our anti-stalking bill should be guilty of
>such behaviour - but then he wrote into his law that sitting
>magistates could not be prosecuted under it... I also note that
>making him, a professional pornographer, a pontifex convinced me that
>the religious leadership of Nova Roma lacked moral authority or
>judgement. Despite his historical scholarship and his ability to be
>personally charming when he wishes to, I consider him to be a far
>more dangerous person than Sulla, and I urge you all to watch him
>carefully.
>
>There are honest and decent friends of mine still here in Nova Roma
>who do not have plans to leave at present. I shall refrain from
>mentioning their names here, as in a political environment moving
>dramatically to the right due to the outflux of the liberals, it
>might be that a blessing from me might prove a figurative kiss of
>death. I shall instead contact some of them privately, but let me
>publically say that I have appreciated every letter encouraging me in
>my fight for freedom and justice here, even from those who did not in
>any sense belong to my "faction".
>
>Disposition of Responsibilities:
>
>Gens Apollonia: I appoint Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix to take over
>as Pater Familias. If he does not wish this position, he may use my
>Paterfamilal power to appoint an alternative. I have appointed him
>because he is the most active remaining member of the Gens Apollonia,
>which seemed to me the most relevant criterion. In accordance with
>the Principia of the Gens, which allow a person leaving Nova Roma for
>reasons of conscience to remain in the Gens, although no longer
>registered by the Censors, I request of the new Paterfamilias
>permission to so remain, and I shall help him to move and adjust the
>Gens website.
>
>Public Office: I resign my position as Aedilis Plebeius with
>apologies to the People. I affirm that to this moment of laying down
>my office I have upheld my oath of office to the best of my
>conscience and in good faith - despite unfounded and reckless
>accusations to the contrary - and I nowhere swore to serve a full
>year's term. My Scriba Aedilicius, Petrus Artorius Longinus, I
>release from service with my thanks and appreciation. If, as I have
>supposed, I am still Scriba Censorius to Censor Sulla (although he
>relieved me of my active duties when I became Aedile), I resign from
>this position as well. If I am not, then my resignation is
>unnecessary.
>
>Sodalitas Latinitatis: I resign my positions as Moderator and
>Praeceptor and Redactor and Triumvir of the Sodalitas Latinitatis. No
>longer being a Nova Roman civis, I request the Scriba to move my name
>from "sodales" and into "amici", as I intend to remain in the
>Sodalitas in that capacity, as is my right. I advise the Tresviri
>that they must elect a new Moderator and Praeceptor from among their
>number. (Only two of them remaining, a choice of new Redactor will
>not be necessary.)
>
>LATIN STUDENTS: As Praeceptor of the Sodalitas Latinitatis I
>fulfilled my teaching duties partly through the establishment of the
>Schola Latina. The Schola Latina, however, has never been itself a
>part of the Sodalitas Latinitatis or Nova Roma. I shall continue to
>operate it as an independent institution for now, and I welcome all
>Nova Roman students to remain and learn. The delays in lessons
>recently have mostly been due to outside responsibilities, not to any
>change in intent.
>
>Citizenship: I hereby resign my citizenship in Nova Roma.
>
>Quirites: I am sorry to go. The micronation Nova Roma is a noble
>idea. Otherwise I never would have joined or devoted the hundreds of
>hours to improving it that I have. Unfortunately, the group of old
>boys who feel comfortable working with each other but not with
>newcomers with more liberal values have not made Nova Roma big enough
>in spirit to include all of us. Without disrespect to those
>remaining, a great deal of talent and very many people with a great
>deal to contribute have been driven away because we have been made to
>feel that those who got here first wanted to use our labour and
>talents, but not listen to our judgements or respond to us
>constructively when we have presented the promptings of our
>consciences.
>
>Of the six senior magistracies here five are in the hands of
>ex-consuls - people who have already been dominant more or less since
>the beginning, but still hog the positions of power instead of
>sharing it with newcomers. And only those senior magistrates can lay
>a bill before the People, worded their way, to get it approved. (The
>theoretical possibilities of the Plebeian Assemby remain
>theoretical.) Is it any wonder that other citizens with other
>concerns and priorities very serious to them (human rights for
>example) become terminally frustrated?
>
>That phrase above "promptings of our consciences" was particularly
>important, by the way. In Nova Roma there is a peculiar and possibly
>willful blindness to the fact that sometimes a person is *compelled*
>by his conscience to respond to a moral imperative, and that in doing
>so it is not a matter of personal obstinacy that drives one on, but
>simply an obedience to a higher call. Many was the ancient Roman who
>would have understood that perfectly. The Brutus who overthrew the
>monarchical State for example. Here there is an overwhelming and
>unhealthy tendency to suppose that power or status quo or authority
>or votes are the only reality and that what is *right* counts for
>little in itself. I hold on the other hand that what is right is the
>sovereign and authoritative reality that must be made manifest
>through all our striving.
>
>It may be that with so many of the more eloquent critics gone, the
>Main List will seem to become more tranquil. Maybe discussion of
>Roman themes instead of just politics will come back more abundantly.
>Maybe self-satisfied people will say that we lost citizens are were
>not really cut out for Nova Roma and were no great loss. But,
>Quirites, when you effectively purge almost all the leadership and a
>great part of the active followers of the liberal wing of the Nova
>Roman citizenry, it is inevitable that the rightest (authoritarian,
>punitive, bureaucratic) wing will gain a very convincing ascendency.
>And you may find that it wishes to lead you places you do not really
>wish to go. My advice is to remember the democracy and rights in your
>macronations, and do not accept any less here.
>
>People have made irrelevant comments recently about economic
>ideologies like socialism and communism. We do not have a national
>economy, and just instituting taxes will not give us one. However,
>traditional governmental classifications like "oligarchy" and
>"democracy", and the more modern "liberal" and "authoritarian" *are*
>useful in discussing Nova Roma - and those are the terms I and my
>allies have used. Nor have any of us asked for "utopias" - we just
>want basic things you might find in a standard civilised country like
>Germany or the U.S., i.e. democracy and human rights.
>
>I have learned a lot here and made good friends here. But it is also
>true that I leave here considerably more cynical about human nature
>than when I entered.
>
>I wish all who in the future may work for Libertas and Iustitia in
>Nova Roma the best of fortune. I have done my best and failed. But I
>followed my conscience and acted sincerely, and that is all a man can
>be held responsible for. Results lie in the laps of the gods.
>
>Dii nos bene ament.
>
>VALETE!
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject: RE: [novaroma] One More Resignation
From: Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 18:27:38 +1000
Oh for the sake of the Gods let it rest - what is done is done - accept the
simple fact that the law has been passed and the Citizens have spoken !!!

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: Kanat Elibol [mailto:kelibol@--------]
Sent: Monday, 28 May 2001 6:37 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] One More Resignation




Avete....
Read this...and read this well!
Then tell us that there is nothing wrong with the res publica!
For , if you believe in this, you probably believe in Santa Claus
too!
It is clear that for 'some' all will be better!
But not for the people of Nova Roma!
I'm more than sorry to see one more noble man leaving us!
As I said , there is something 'terribly' wrong with the res
publica...and with her people ..
with us!After all it is the 'people' ,it is 'us' which create a nation!
I just hope that the Gods will give us the wisdom of taking lessons
from our past mistakes
together with the strength for defending our beliefs and rights in the
future!
Valete bene...
Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------


>M. Apollonius Formosanus Aedilis Plebeius, Paterfamilias Gentis
>Apolloniae, Moderator et Praeceptor et Redactor Sodalitatis
>Latinitatis, atque Amicus Dignitatis
>
>Censoribus Senatusque Novae Romae atque omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
>Many will be glad that I am resigning my citizenship in Nova Roma.
>Many - perhaps mostly less loud a presence - will regret it,
>including I myself. Attend me *one* more time:
>
>I have found Nova Roma to be a place in which saying something is
>democratic is not greeted with approbation. A place where at least
>one sexual minority group is deliberately singled out for onerous
>discrimination. A place where a perfectly legal organisation that
>might be thought of as a human rights association or a liberal
>political party (i.e. the Amici Dignitatis) was treated as though its
>existence was a plot to overthrow the Republic. (But somehow
>macronations seem to flourish well enough with such organisations,
>and the regimes that try to oppose them are thought of as
>dictatorships...)
>
>I have devoted my ethical/political life as a man and as a
>philosopher to speading democracy, freedom from all forms of
>discrimination, and human rights. An organisation like this is not
>one I can any longer feel comfortable supporting or lending my name
>to. I have done my very best to change things here so that people
>could cultivate their Romanitas in an atmosphere decent and fit for
>enlightened dual citizens of normal modern democracies. I have
>failed. I apologise to everyone who has suffered because of that,
>first of all to Lucius Marius Peregrinus, but also to all those past,
>present and future whose hopes for a fair, free and open Nova Roma I
>have failed to further despite my best go at it.
>
>I am not leaving now because I have lost heart for the battle in
>itself or because I am particularly distressed by the hatred,
>invective and lies directed against me of late or the patronising
>tones of Consul Iulianus. I am leaving primarily because most of my
>friends and allies have left, either on the memorable Ides of March
>or now. It might have been better if they had all stayed to fight
>too, but it is now a proven and tested fact of Nova Roman life that a
>majority of the decent and liberal who might balance the political
>spectrum here eventually become so disgusted that they leave, even if
>they have acquired various honours and penetrated the Oligarchy
>itself - for example Vado and M. Marcius Rex. The minority who remain
>are thus unsupported by numbers. That being the case, I have lost
>hope for Nova Roma.
>
>I wish to leave you all with a warning: We have in sometimes speaking
>of ultra-rightist and Neo-Fascist tendencies here not been hurling
>around terms of abuse at random or for effect. I and others have
>identified Q. Fabius Maximus and Festus/Nerva as having such
>tendencies. The former, for example, recently sent Draco a lengthy
>letter laudatory of Nazi achievement and comparing Rome with this
>type of ideology. Festus (Nerva) of course spoke sumilar words on
>this Main List some months ago, and referred all of us to a Nazi
>site. He has also spoken very anti-democratic words in arguments with
>me and others in the organising committee for the Sodalitas Musarum,
>in which he also attacked American democracy as a man clearly its
>bitter enemy. Sulla is only on the periphery of this group, but has
>sometimes expressed similar sympathies.
>
>I shall not be in Nova Roma to suffer from any of this, but I would
>not like to see an interest in Rome and Roman re-enactment become
>associated with anything fascistic or Neo-Nazi on the internet or
>with any responsible macronational authorities due to future
>activites of Nova Roma. I urge you, cives, to watch out for
>condemnations of democracy and the use of the word "republic" as
>though it was an *alternative* to democracy instead of a form of
>democracy. This might superficially look like a legitimate historical
>discussion of the nature of the Roman Respublica, but sometimes
>elements of the ultra-rightest usage have crept in. Non-Americans
>here especially should be aware of this U.S. ultra-rightist use of
>the word.
>
>I would like to address you, Censor Sulla, especially: I liked and
>respected you very much when you single-handedly eliminted the
>backlog in citizenship applications and got me into Nova Roma, nor
>lacked a kind and helpful word for me. If we had been able to become
>friends and allies thereafter, perhaps it would have been good for
>both of us and for Nova Roma. Unfortunately you soon thereafter began
>to persecute Marius, and you let your own sense of pride and
>stubbornness push you far too far and long in that matter. It was not
>good for the Respublica or anyone else, and the victory of your
>edictum text in the recent vote cannot change that. I do not know how
>much this was due to your personal prejudice against transsexuals or
>how much it stemmed from Fabius Maximus, Cincinnatus, Vedius or
>others egging you on, but it was the kind of deed that was so far
>beyond the pale in terms of fairness and kindness that it made it
>impossible for us to unite our forces for the good of Nova Roma.
>
>Sulla - go and get that law degree you have been promising yourself.
>Put Nova Roma in perspective and don't make dominating others here
>such a priority in your life. You will be happier and so will Nova
>Roma. Most people of my political persuasions loathe you. I do not. I
>agree with many of your gentiles that you have a good human side to
>your nature too. And I wish you all the best in anything you may do
>in Nova Roma or out of it that is kind, fair and honest.
>
>Quirites, I would also like to put it on public record here that I
>have personally received various private letters from Q. Fabius
>Maximus of a scurrilous and hate-filled nature and implying that
>members of sexual minorities might best be killed. Also one that
>others I showed it to for counsel felt to be a death threat. It is
>ironic that the author of our anti-stalking bill should be guilty of
>such behaviour - but then he wrote into his law that sitting
>magistates could not be prosecuted under it... I also note that
>making him, a professional pornographer, a pontifex convinced me that
>the religious leadership of Nova Roma lacked moral authority or
>judgement. Despite his historical scholarship and his ability to be
>personally charming when he wishes to, I consider him to be a far
>more dangerous person than Sulla, and I urge you all to watch him
>carefully.
>
>There are honest and decent friends of mine still here in Nova Roma
>who do not have plans to leave at present. I shall refrain from
>mentioning their names here, as in a political environment moving
>dramatically to the right due to the outflux of the liberals, it
>might be that a blessing from me might prove a figurative kiss of
>death. I shall instead contact some of them privately, but let me
>publically say that I have appreciated every letter encouraging me in
>my fight for freedom and justice here, even from those who did not in
>any sense belong to my "faction".
>
>Disposition of Responsibilities:
>
>Gens Apollonia: I appoint Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix to take over
>as Pater Familias. If he does not wish this position, he may use my
>Paterfamilal power to appoint an alternative. I have appointed him
>because he is the most active remaining member of the Gens Apollonia,
>which seemed to me the most relevant criterion. In accordance with
>the Principia of the Gens, which allow a person leaving Nova Roma for
>reasons of conscience to remain in the Gens, although no longer
>registered by the Censors, I request of the new Paterfamilias
>permission to so remain, and I shall help him to move and adjust the
>Gens website.
>
>Public Office: I resign my position as Aedilis Plebeius with
>apologies to the People. I affirm that to this moment of laying down
>my office I have upheld my oath of office to the best of my
>conscience and in good faith - despite unfounded and reckless
>accusations to the contrary - and I nowhere swore to serve a full
>year's term. My Scriba Aedilicius, Petrus Artorius Longinus, I
>release from service with my thanks and appreciation. If, as I have
>supposed, I am still Scriba Censorius to Censor Sulla (although he
>relieved me of my active duties when I became Aedile), I resign from
>this position as well. If I am not, then my resignation is
>unnecessary.
>
>Sodalitas Latinitatis: I resign my positions as Moderator and
>Praeceptor and Redactor and Triumvir of the Sodalitas Latinitatis. No
>longer being a Nova Roman civis, I request the Scriba to move my name
>from "sodales" and into "amici", as I intend to remain in the
>Sodalitas in that capacity, as is my right. I advise the Tresviri
>that they must elect a new Moderator and Praeceptor from among their
>number. (Only two of them remaining, a choice of new Redactor will
>not be necessary.)
>
>LATIN STUDENTS: As Praeceptor of the Sodalitas Latinitatis I
>fulfilled my teaching duties partly through the establishment of the
>Schola Latina. The Schola Latina, however, has never been itself a
>part of the Sodalitas Latinitatis or Nova Roma. I shall continue to
>operate it as an independent institution for now, and I welcome all
>Nova Roman students to remain and learn. The delays in lessons
>recently have mostly been due to outside responsibilities, not to any
>change in intent.
>
>Citizenship: I hereby resign my citizenship in Nova Roma.
>
>Quirites: I am sorry to go. The micronation Nova Roma is a noble
>idea. Otherwise I never would have joined or devoted the hundreds of
>hours to improving it that I have. Unfortunately, the group of old
>boys who feel comfortable working with each other but not with
>newcomers with more liberal values have not made Nova Roma big enough
>in spirit to include all of us. Without disrespect to those
>remaining, a great deal of talent and very many people with a great
>deal to contribute have been driven away because we have been made to
>feel that those who got here first wanted to use our labour and
>talents, but not listen to our judgements or respond to us
>constructively when we have presented the promptings of our
>consciences.
>
>Of the six senior magistracies here five are in the hands of
>ex-consuls - people who have already been dominant more or less since
>the beginning, but still hog the positions of power instead of
>sharing it with newcomers. And only those senior magistrates can lay
>a bill before the People, worded their way, to get it approved. (The
>theoretical possibilities of the Plebeian Assemby remain
>theoretical.) Is it any wonder that other citizens with other
>concerns and priorities very serious to them (human rights for
>example) become terminally frustrated?
>
>That phrase above "promptings of our consciences" was particularly
>important, by the way. In Nova Roma there is a peculiar and possibly
>willful blindness to the fact that sometimes a person is *compelled*
>by his conscience to respond to a moral imperative, and that in doing
>so it is not a matter of personal obstinacy that drives one on, but
>simply an obedience to a higher call. Many was the ancient Roman who
>would have understood that perfectly. The Brutus who overthrew the
>monarchical State for example. Here there is an overwhelming and
>unhealthy tendency to suppose that power or status quo or authority
>or votes are the only reality and that what is *right* counts for
>little in itself. I hold on the other hand that what is right is the
>sovereign and authoritative reality that must be made manifest
>through all our striving.
>
>It may be that with so many of the more eloquent critics gone, the
>Main List will seem to become more tranquil. Maybe discussion of
>Roman themes instead of just politics will come back more abundantly.
>Maybe self-satisfied people will say that we lost citizens are were
>not really cut out for Nova Roma and were no great loss. But,
>Quirites, when you effectively purge almost all the leadership and a
>great part of the active followers of the liberal wing of the Nova
>Roman citizenry, it is inevitable that the rightest (authoritarian,
>punitive, bureaucratic) wing will gain a very convincing ascendency.
>And you may find that it wishes to lead you places you do not really
>wish to go. My advice is to remember the democracy and rights in your
>macronations, and do not accept any less here.
>
>People have made irrelevant comments recently about economic
>ideologies like socialism and communism. We do not have a national
>economy, and just instituting taxes will not give us one. However,
>traditional governmental classifications like "oligarchy" and
>"democracy", and the more modern "liberal" and "authoritarian" *are*
>useful in discussing Nova Roma - and those are the terms I and my
>allies have used. Nor have any of us asked for "utopias" - we just
>want basic things you might find in a standard civilised country like
>Germany or the U.S., i.e. democracy and human rights.
>
>I have learned a lot here and made good friends here. But it is also
>true that I leave here considerably more cynical about human nature
>than when I entered.
>
>I wish all who in the future may work for Libertas and Iustitia in
>Nova Roma the best of fortune. I have done my best and failed. But I
>followed my conscience and acted sincerely, and that is all a man can
>be held responsible for. Results lie in the laps of the gods.
>
>Dii nos bene ament.
>
>VALETE!
>
>
>
>
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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Resignations
From: Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:04:49 +0200
TSardonicus@-------- wrote:
> After receiving several e-mails from kind people, I would stay a Citizen of
> Nova Roma.

Salve, Luci Tiberi Sardonice.

Thank you for reconsidering. I, among others, would have missed you. I'm
glad you chose to remain among us, to continue improving upon our fair
nation.

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consiliarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS d- s:++> a-- C++>$ ULS++ P+ L++ E- W++(--) N
o-- K- w--- !O M-- V-- PS->$ PE- Y+ PGP- t+@ 5- X-
R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !x-
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------



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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Resignations
From: "Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 11:11:18 -0000
Salve Omnes:

I'll second that :)

Welcome back Tiberi. And I'll welcome your resubscription to Sodalitas
Militarium :)

Pompeia


>From: Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Resignations
>Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:04:49 +0200
>
>TSardonicus@-------- wrote:
> > After receiving several e-mails from kind people, I would stay a Citizen
>of
> > Nova Roma.
>
>Salve, Luci Tiberi Sardonice.
>
>Thank you for reconsidering. I, among others, would have missed you. I'm
>glad you chose to remain among us, to continue improving upon our fair
>nation.
>
>Vale,
>
>Titus Octavius Pius,
>Consiliarius Thules,
>Praeco Anarei Thules,
>Scriba to the Curator Araneum
>
>AKA Kristoffer From
>
> ---
>
> Si hoc signum legere potes,
> operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
> et fructuosis potiri potes.
>
> - Not-so-famous quotation
>
>-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
>Version: 3.1
>GCS d- s:++> a-- C++>$ ULS++ P+ L++ E- W++(--) N
>o-- K- w--- !O M-- V-- PS->$ PE- Y+ PGP- t+@ 5- X-
>R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !x-
>------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: European Hindsight
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 04:18:42 -0700 (PDT)
Salvete omnes; et salve, Druse.

--- Lucius Sicinius Drusus <lsicinius@--------> wrote:

<<snipped>>

> I am willing to look at an idea based on it's merits, regardless of
> the policital label that is attached to it. As an example the idea
> for
> the US Interstate Highway system is based on Hitler's development of
> the Autobhans. I hate Hitler, but have to admit that the highway
> system was a good idea. I also liked the old Volkswagen's and they
> wouldn't have existed without Hitler. An Idea's merit is the
> important
> thing, not who came up with it, or what other ideas they might have.

Then, there is no difference at all between our two positions, for that
was exactly my point.

It is nice to solve this kind of things in a civilized manner, isn't
it?



=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

__________________________________________________
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Subject: RE: [novaroma] Re: Resignation of the Governor of Gaul
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 04:42:09 -0700 (PDT)
Salvete omnes; et salve, Druse.

> --- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@e...>
> wrote:
> I would like to see the 6 month waiting peroid for readmitance
> doubled
> for Oath breakers, and a 5 year ban on holding ANY office on their
> return. A Second occurance should result in a lifelong banishment.

Although I have made quite a fuss on Draco's resignation, I have to
agree with Drusus and Sulla on this point. Resigning from an office,
and thus breaking your oath, should be strongly disencouraged, and
somehow "punished". The penalties proposed by Drusus seems somehow
rush, but I guess the specific penalties could be open to discussion.

I would simply propose a 2 year ban on holding central government
offices. This is also open to discussion.



=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

__________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Canada Orientalis New Website
From: "A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 07:51:23 -0400
Salve Pompeia: Yes, I think he deserves all the accolades that are coming
in. A very talented fellow indeed, Pompeia. We are fortunate that he is in
our provincia. And done so quickly as well. But perhaps we should moderate
our praise, or it might all go to his head.;-)
Again, you have done us all a great service, Amuli Claudi. A very sincere
thankyou!
Ave atque vale, ... A. Cato, ... Rogator et civis Canada Orientalis
N.R.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Canada Orientalis New Website


> Salvete!!!
>
> Oh, isn't it absolutely excellent Cato?
> I am so pleased!!!
>
> Pompeia
>
>
> >From: "A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
> >Reply-To: novaroma@--------
> >To: <novaroma@-------->
> >Subject: Re: [novaroma] Canada Orientalis New Website
> >Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 22:48:02 -0400
> >
> >Salve Amuli Claudi: That's Great.! I think you have done a fantastic job
> >on
> >it. Gratias tibi ago. It's wonderful to have such talented people in
Canada
> >Orientalis. Again many thanks Amuli Claudi.
> > Ave atque vale, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, ... Rogator et
> >civis
> >Canada Orientalis
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Amulius Claudius Petrus" <pkkt@-------->
> >To: <novaroma@-------->
> >Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 8:42 PM
> >Subject: [novaroma] Canada Orientalis New Website
> >
> >
> > > Just finished up the new site. Wondering what people think.
> > >
> > > Its at http://www.freehost.nu/members/canorien/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hinc est mei oratio!
> > >
> > > --
> > > Amulius Claudius Petrus
> > > Civis Canada Orientalis
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>
>
>
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>
>




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Subject: [novaroma] The Americans
From: "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 11:50:51 -0000
Salvete Quirites,

>From time to time I've seen some of our problems catagorized as
Americans against Europeans. That is an overly simple. The recent
disagreements saw more Europeans on the side that lost the recent vote
than Americans, but that isn't due to some evil plan to make Nova Roma
into Roma America.

Both Americans and Europeans have bought some of their policital
baggage into Nova Roma with them. Right now America is over
represented in Nova Roma due to a couple of historical accedents. The
first is the internet started in the United States, and resulted in
the US being more "wired" than some areas that share our common Roman
heiratage. The rest of the world is catching up and in some parts of
Europe has passed the US, so this is a short term advantage. The
second is that Nova Roma started in the US. As Citizens from other
areas of the world join Nova Roma they will eventually outnumber the
Americans.

Once that happens the politics of Nova Roma will shift. For those of
you on the left, don't make the mistake of thinking that this shift
will all go your way. American Politics tends to be Right-Center. Our
recent disputes saw Europe's left challenging the Center-Right ideas
that many Americans hold. I would remind you that Europe also has some
very conservative movements, and europe's right wing is "Righter" than
America's Politics, just as her left is "Lefter" than the USA.

I also apoligize to my friends south of the Rio Grande for using the
conventual term "American". I fully realize that you too are
Americans, and refer to us as the "Norte Americanos". I used the term
that most Europeans and US citizens use to avoid confussion. I also
realize that your politics are more varied than the USA's or Europes,
and that as your numbers grow, you too will broaden Nova Roma's
Policital outlook.

Quirites, I admit that Nova Roma is dominated by USA Citizens, but
that is Today. At some point in the not too distant future NO Macro
Nation will dominate Nova Roma, and we will truely be international.
Then we will be able to put this USA vs Europe vs South America vs Oz
nonsense behind us, and simply be Romans.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus
Roman Citizen
(Who happens to reside in America Austrorientalis)




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Subject: Re: [novaroma] One More Resignation
From: "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 05:13:26 -0700 (PDT)
Salve,
Marcus Apollonius, I realize that this will NOT be
popular with all my fellow citizens, but I ask you to
reconsider your resignation.

At times you have been a pain in the podex, but I for
one will miss you, and Nova Roma is the long term
loser when citizens as talented as yourself and your
filis Draco leave us.

You are taking a short term look at Nova Roman
politics. In all nations the policital pendalum swings
from left to right and back again over the course of
time. A few years from now US Citizens will no longer
dominate Nova Roma, and you may find that it's
politics suit you better. I for one would have you
here when that day arrives.

Please reconsider your actions before breaking your
Oath.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus


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Subject: RE: [novaroma] Re: Resignation of the Governor of Gaul
From: "Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 12:19:27 -0000
Salvete Omnes:

I agree that magisterial/propraetoral resignations should be discouraged,
but not the first offence. We are all human, and make rash/erroneous
decisions, based on either emotion or false information. Thank goodness
for the nine day "grace" period in the resignation lex. Granted this
behaviour should not be a pattern, but, a few of us have gone awol once for
a short period until we came to our senses and realized that we were walking
away from both friends and commitments.

Quite often, civites most bothered by events and situations in NR are the
ones most dedicated to her existence and growth. I am not speaking for
myself, but this is what I have observed in others who have done the "mini
resignation" thing.

Just some thoughts.

Bene valete,
Pompeia Cornelia

Valete,
Pompeia Cornelia



>From: Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: RE: [novaroma] Re: Resignation of the Governor of Gaul
>Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 04:42:09 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Salvete omnes; et salve, Druse.
>
> > --- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@e...>
> > wrote:
> > I would like to see the 6 month waiting peroid for readmitance
> > doubled
> > for Oath breakers, and a 5 year ban on holding ANY office on their
> > return. A Second occurance should result in a lifelong banishment.
>
>Although I have made quite a fuss on Draco's resignation, I have to
>agree with Drusus and Sulla on this point. Resigning from an office,
>and thus breaking your oath, should be strongly disencouraged, and
>somehow "punished". The penalties proposed by Drusus seems somehow
>rush, but I guess the specific penalties could be open to discussion.
>
>I would simply propose a 2 year ban on holding central government
>offices. This is also open to discussion.
>
>
>
>=====
>Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
>Gnaeus Salix Astur.
>Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.
>
>__________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Where are My Manners?
From: "A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 08:27:09 -0400
Salvete Omnes: Well, here is another one. :-) Thanks go to Pompeia Cornelia
for reminding us. What with all that has been happening both on this main
list and in private life, I as well am late at this.
Congratulations Oppi Flacce on your win. I believe that you will make
an excellent Quaestor. Best wishes and best of luck
Valete, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, ... Rogator

----- Original Message -----
From: "Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
To: <NovaRoma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 11:14 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Where are My Manners?


> Salvete Omnes:
>
> It suddenly occurred to me that I did not congratulate Oppius Flaccus
> Severus on his election to the position of Quaestor.
>
> Well, a belated congrats, Oppi.
>
> Bene valete,
> Pompeia Cornelia
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




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Subject: [novaroma] Re: European Hindsight
From: "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 12:25:32 -0000
--- In novaroma@--------, Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> wrote:
> Salvete omnes; et salve, Druse.
>
> --- Lucius Sicinius Drusus <lsicinius@--------> wrote:
>
> <<snipped>>
>
> > I am willing to look at an idea based on it's merits, regardless of
> > the policital label that is attached to it. As an example the idea
> > for
> > the US Interstate Highway system is based on Hitler's development of
> > the Autobhans. I hate Hitler, but have to admit that the highway
> > system was a good idea. I also liked the old Volkswagen's and they
> > wouldn't have existed without Hitler. An Idea's merit is the
> > important
> > thing, not who came up with it, or what other ideas they might have.
>
> Then, there is no difference at all between our two positions, for that
> was exactly my point.
>
> It is nice to solve this kind of things in a civilized manner, isn't
> it?
>
>
LOL it's really easy if you simply maintain respect for your fellow
Romans, and don't let some labels get in the way.

Drusus




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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Resignation
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 05:40:12 -0700 (PDT)
Salvete omnes; et salve, Tiberi Apolloni.

--- Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix <consulromanus@--------> wrote:
> Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix Marco Marcio Rufo SPD
>
> You don't have to leave Nova Roma because of the
> overflow of Americans in here, I as a European myself
> also have this experience. But I created a European
> list with the following purpose: If most of the
> European citizens of Nova Roma could get together (in
> a meeting etc.) or attend some events together and
> promote Nova Roma, there would be more Europeans
> joining Nova Roma, and we could get as strong or even
> stronger as the American part. This is a nice dream I
> hope will come true.

I am totally in favour of holding a Nova Roma European meeting as soon
as possible. Some discussion on this issue was held in the past months,
but nothing practical was agreed. I hope we can retake this issue once
more and reach a practical ageement.



=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

__________________________________________________
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Subject: [novaroma] Re: Recent Events
From: "A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 08:48:18 -0400
Salve Oppi Flacce: I am one of those who have been "thowing the virtues around" to some extent. But that is because I believe in them. If I didn't, I wouldn't care. That is the only part of your very eloquent and to-the-point letter that we perhaps might disagree about. You have written an excellent post, and I am sure many people will agree with me on that. Your statements are concise, and plainly worded, which I think will perhaps get through to people in a way more complicated statements would perhaps would fail to do. I look forward to reading more of your thoughts in the future. And again, many congratulations on your upcoming position as Quaestor.
Best wishes. Ave atque vale, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, ... Rogator et civis Canada Orientalis, N.R.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Subject: [novaroma] Ode to Marcus Apollonius
From: trog99@--------
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:18:43 -0000
Salvete Formosane et Populus Nova Roma:

Odes are normally sung. Well, thank goodness for the silence of
emails......my voice is like fingernails against a blackboard :)

Marcus Apollonius:

For writing and rewriting the Musarum Regula three times after
deliberations from the members of the Organizing Committee:

*******Thank you******

For co-founding and serving in Sodalitas Latinitas:

*****Thank you*******

For the Latin lessons you posted to the list last year for all to
benefit:

*******Thank you******

For designing the online temple for those who honour Minerva:

********Thank you******

For leaving your email addie on the Minerva Site for those in
distress, and for providing self-help links on this site:

*******Thank you******

As much as there are many who do not embrace all of your
sociopolitical views, you have contributed much to the greatness of
Nova Roma. And this cive thanks you from the bottom of her heart.

I am so sorry you have been subject to demeaning troll posts,and, as
you say, very threatening letters, "satires" which have served only to
insult you in lieu of someone not just coming out and speaking their
mind.

You are a very tenacious and passionate individual. These are not bad
qualities. Unfortunately, this makes you very headstrong when it
comes to compromising with other people. And, in a nation of people
from all over the world, compromise is essential.

You have faught admirably for the cause of those of a transgendered
nature, and specifically for Marius. I just wish I could be as
convinced as you are that Marius is as sincere in his/her commitment.


I am sorry, and I must say this: When one's phone answering machine
identifies its owner as that "crazy Roman GAL", I have to
question....but I know, you are arguing the principle and not the
person.

I am happy that you decided to take it easy on Pater Sulla. I am
pleased that you also see that he has some good qualities. I sure
think so. Do I always agree with him? Of course not. But, we have a
heck of a gens.....not a political party.......a gens. Sulla is a
very approachable and caring individual with his gens. I have to hand
it to him.......in this area he impresses me greatly. And he has
never had any kids.

Politically, Sulla made a call, it went to comitia, and the people
have spoken. In future, on never knows, this lex, among others, will
be amended. As far as I know, our lexes are not perpetually
irrevocable. Further, not every piece of legislation he promulgated
revolved around avenging Marius Fimbria :)

That is about all I have to say. I thank you for all you have done.
I thank you for enriching my life. I would like you to come
back...but I would like things to be different. I want us to be happy
atleast "some" of the time, and we all have to put some work into
this. You, me.....everyone. Kind of like a marriage........

Buona Fortuna Perpetua,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo






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Subject: RE: [novaroma] One More Resignation
From: Kanat Elibol <kelibol@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 16:57:31 +0300


Salve frater....
I'm glad for you that you've such a 'simple and quick'
sollutions for every matter...this
will surely give you some peace of mind and a good place in the res
publica....
I just wish that I and some other cives could've such a fine
short sight about the
future of the NR...!
Vale bene....
Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Oh for the sake of the Gods let it rest - what is done is done - accept the
>simple fact that the law has been passed and the Citizens have spoken !!!
>
>Marcus Sentius Claudius
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




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Subject: [novaroma] Resignations
From: jmath669642reng@--------
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 09:57:40 -0400 (EDT)
Citizens of Nova Roma;

I am on the verge of again "heaing for the woods:, but my good friend
ProPraetor Quitillianus has asked me to post a message relating to the
above subject:

To those of you who felt the necessity of resigning I am sorry to lose
you, for many reasons, but the failure of some of you to live up to your
Oath is indicative of your view of accepted responsibilities and that
too is also very disturbing. If your word / Oath is not binding then
what of your honor and dignity?? How may I or we trust what you say??
To those of you who have done little for NR but listen, what have you
done to further NR except to listen??

If I recall correctly, the Appolonii have labeled me in generalities
"Oligarch", and have verbally abused my Consulship and that of my
Consular Colleague F. Maximus in most critical and impolite terms, and
when I objected, I recieved a further lecture that used the same terms
to which I had formerly objected. I believe that too is a tad impolite,
but I have not "quit" Nova Roma because I have taken an Oath. I cannot
leave (even if I wished to) until that Oath is fulfilled. My good
friend Quintillianus asked me the other day about running again for
Consul, and my answer was, that I have been villified, criticized and
have lost many friends in NR since undertaking that office. I have
worked hard, but have from some quarters recieved only criticism for my
efforts even though they have been carried out for the most part
politely, and with the majority of my peers behind the decisions I have
made as a Magistrate. All this seems to mean little to those who did
not get thier way. Now we hear that they are leaving because someone
has done the same to them-----Well, I guess I just don't understand!!

While I am very sorry to see those people resign, my feelings are that
they are not happy here and they see any organization attempted for the
rights of the majority as some kind of continuous threat. Youth brings
it's own problems into the mix, for one never realizes his / her
limitations in regard to experience and knowledge until that person has
the advantage of looking backward. No amount of assurances on the part
of others, or education, or training will solve that problem. Please do
not presume to lecture me on the value of young people for I have worked
with them for over 36 years, and I know thier value properly channeled
and attended. Certainly there are those of an older age, whose posts,
responses, attitudes and interpersonal relations are abysimal, but we
all have problems of some kind, and charity, politeness, and
consideration seem to be something that perhaps we could "all" take
lessons in. If those people offend you, as has been indicated, "vote
them out"------after all you voted them in!!!!

Yes, I appeal to those who have left to reconsider, but while they are
reconsidering, reconsider the value of the Oath you took, reconsider the
words that "you" have uttered, reconsider the needs of others, besides
your narrow view of necessity, reconsider the values of Nova Roma as you
accepted them upon joining, reconsider your contribution to Nova Roma to
better her overall, reconsider the value of your opponents arguments
(for in the arguments of good people are points to be seriously
considered) and finally reconsider the 60% to 40% formula for
concurrence, when two people can be found to apply such to their
differences.

I am not European, but I have traveled there extensively and have lived
there, and to some degree have a success in making fast friends in that
part of the world as I have in Japan, China, and the Caribbean. I do
not find a great deal of difference in those of another culture in the
areas of fairmindedness, politeness, and hard work. However, as in
America and elsewhere, I find the views of certain individuals quite
different from the views of the majority if they have a "Product to
sell" or a "Cause to market."

Yes, my friends, if you will allow that familiarity, I ask you to
reconsider, for I would far rather have you at my side, as we move
forward to bring NR into the next stage of a micronation, but I wold
have you here because you love her, not because she is a continuous
irritant to you. I further appeal to those who remain to modify your
posts, consider the wise words of several on the list, politeness, and
personal consideration "FIRST"--political consideration a long way
second, and your continuous posts might well be contained in one per
day, since although I am sure you feel that your views are important,
the views of those you discourage with your many and voluminus posts to
this list are valuable as well!!!

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary




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Subject: [novaroma] Swapping e-mail
From: Kristoffer From <from@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 15:59:07 +0200
Salvete, omnes.

This is just me letting y'all know that I'm changing my old e-mail, and
will probably change it once more during a transitional phase to a
steady internet connection. Please disregard this as "spam" if you
weren't planning on mailing me personally anyhow...;)

Valete,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consiliarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

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Subject: [novaroma] Re: Resignation of the Governor of Gaul
From: "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 14:08:54 -0000
--- In novaroma@--------, "Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes:
>
> I agree that magisterial/propraetoral resignations should be
discouraged,
> but not the first offence. We are all human, and make rash/erroneous
> decisions, based on either emotion or false information. Thank
goodness
> for the nine day "grace" period in the resignation lex. Granted this
> behaviour should not be a pattern, but, a few of us have gone awol
once for
> a short period until we came to our senses and realized that we were
walking
> away from both friends and commitments.
>
> Quite often, civites most bothered by events and situations in NR
are the
> ones most dedicated to her existence and growth. I am not speaking for
> myself, but this is what I have observed in others who have done the
"mini
> resignation" thing.
>
> Just some thoughts.
>
> Bene valete,
> Pompeia Cornelia

Ave,

I will admit that right now I feel a lot of anger towards those who
break sacred oaths. This is NOT some stupid RPG where your Roman
character is swearing an oath. If there are any who look at Nova Roma
in that light, You are more tham welcome to submit your resignation
right NOW, and go play Dungeons & Dragons.

This is REAL. We are talking about people breaking a sacred oath, In
effect telling the Gods they swore that oath by "F... Off" because
they are upset that everything isn't going thier way.

I am very sad to lose the talent, and the commitment to Romanits that
many of these citizens displayed. Nova Roma is poorer today than she
was prior the resignations on the Ides of March and yesterday.

However if we continue to look the other way as Magistrates become
Oath Breakers, Then we are joining them in insulting the Gods. We may
not be able to stop people from breaking thier oaths, but we can and
must make it plain that this caviler attitude towards the Gods is NOT
condoned by Nova Roma.

This round of resignations only saw a couple of Magistrates start on
the path towards becoming Oath Breakers, and I hope they reconsider
what they are doing. It was far worse on the Ides when we not only saw
people break oaths to serve the state, but also citizens walking out
on thier postions in the Religio, adding a worse insult to the Immortals.

For this reason I call on our Magistrates to provide strict penalities
for Magistrates that break thier Oaths.

I also ask those who hold postions in the Religio to give us a Lex
Sacra that provides even harsher penalities for those violate thier
Oaths to serve duties towards the Gods.

I am aware that a citizen may have to relenquish a postion for reasons
of health, or finances, and these Leges should take this into
consideration. My complaint is with those who break thier oaths over
policital matters.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus




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Subject: [novaroma] Taxation
From: Kristoffer From <from@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 16:37:44 +0200
Salvete, omnes.

I just (read: 2 hours ago) went to my local bank to get a
Visa card, without credit, to be able to pay my taxes. First,
getting one without credit proved impossible, second, getting
one at all incurred an annual fee of $30, which is more than
double the proposed tax. This means, if the tax is settled
at $12, as suggested, my yearly payment will be $42, since
I have no other reason but for my Nova Roman taxes to have
a Visa card. Furthermore, if someone manages to "snoop" the
transaction, they can use the card number beyond the money
actually available, giving me a rather significant debt. Not
only does being a citizen of Nova Roma cost me $42, it also
opens up the possibility of theft of large sums of money.

This, of course, didn't prevent me from actually aquiring the
card in question, so now I'm all set up for when the taxes
are due. "Hit me!" :)

However, if the basic cost to be able to pay taxes is $30,
apart from the taxes themselves, I, for one, understand that
some people might feel this a bit much. Maybe, when deciding
upon the actual taxes, the senate should exempt "poor"
citizens, instead of just reducing the amount required.
After all, though there is a difference between $1 and $12,
the difference between $31 and $42 is procentually MUCH
smaller, and doesn't reflect the difference in income between
countries.

I know, tired old subject, shouldn't bring it up again,
already voted on(it isn't, though, right?), ...:)

Just me stirring up the (virtual) hornet's nest.

Valete,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consiliarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

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R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !x-
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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Resignations
From: LSergAust@--------
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 10:40:22 EDT

Ave Lucius Tiberius!

Welcome "back." Thank you for reconsidering your decision.

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

On 5/27/01 11:35 PM TSardonicus@-------- (TSardonicus@--------) wrote:

>In a message dated 5/27/01 11:08:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>scriba_forum@-------- writes:
>
>> Let each of us take personal responsibility in the building of our res
>> publica.
>
>Salvete,
>
>After receiving several e-mails from kind people, I would stay a Citizen of
>Nova Roma. For those of you who e-mailed me privately, I extend my
>heartfelt
>thanks.
>
>Let me assure you that my decision to resign was not made on a whim, but was
>a product of burnout over some time. My decision to remain is not made on a
>whim either. I will not bore you with what is, at this point, simply a
>series of gripes, complaints and whining. After I've had some time to work
>through some of my ill-feelings, I will offer some (hopefully) constructive
>posts on communication, debate, comradery, and belonging.
>
>I apologize to the Citizens of Nova Roma for my petulant behavior. To
>those
>of you who have posted their resignations recently, I can only say that I
>hope you will reconsider also.
>
>Valete,
>Lucius Tiberius Sardonicus
>


certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)




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Subject: Re: [novaroma] One More Resignation
From: LSergAust@--------
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 10:40:24 EDT

Salve

Of course there is something wrong with the res publica. Only an idiot
would think otherwise. What is wrong is basically that it is infested
with humans! There is no nation or organization on the whole planet that
isn't infested with them, and *wherever* they are there is injustice,
inequity, meanness, hatred, bullying, and perfidy. But there is also
creativity, love, beauty, vision, loyalty, and industriousness.

Those who leave here because of the human faults they see will take those
faults with them and find them wherever else they chose to go.

Marcus Apollonius' farewell address was well-written and, except for that
persistent nonsense about a "sexual minority", contains a lot of good
sense. It is sad that he could not channel his immense talents into
constructive participation in Nova Roma. I, for one, think the Republic
is the less for his departure although he made of himself an incredible
pain in the *** at times.

I am still here to uphold the "left-wing" of Nova Roma. I stand with that
notorious Colonial left-winger Thomas Jefferson in having sworn "eternal
hostility to any form of tyranny over the minds of men." (or is it "mind
of Man?" No matter.)

However, neither the tyrants nor the populists will ever be finally
triumphant, because both of those tendencies coexist in each of us.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

On 5/28/01 3:37 AM Kanat Elibol (kelibol@--------) wrote:

>
>
> Avete....
> Read this...and read this well!
> Then tell us that there is nothing wrong with the res publica!
> For , if you believe in this, you probably believe in Santa Claus
>too!
> It is clear that for 'some' all will be better!
> But not for the people of Nova Roma!
> I'm more than sorry to see one more noble man leaving us!
> As I said , there is something 'terribly' wrong with the res
>publica...and with her people ..
> with us!After all it is the 'people' ,it is 'us' which create a nation!
> I just hope that the Gods will give us the wisdom of taking lessons
>from our past mistakes
> together with the strength for defending our beliefs and rights in the
>future!
> Valete bene...
> Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>------------------------------------------------
>
>
>>M. Apollonius Formosanus Aedilis Plebeius, Paterfamilias Gentis
>>Apolloniae, Moderator et Praeceptor et Redactor Sodalitatis
>>Latinitatis, atque Amicus Dignitatis
>>


certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)




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Subject: [novaroma] Sanctions for oath breakers
From: "Matthias Stappert" <3s@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 14:40:41 -0000
Salvete Quirites.

Firstly, breaking an oath is a sacrilege, and sacrileges have to be
severly punished.

Secondly, those who break their oath show themselves unable for any
office.

If they find themselves unable to fulfill an office, for any reasons,
they can resign. A valid resignation is the only legal way to lay
down the obligations of an office.

I´m in favor to sanctions for oath breakers.

An office is an obligation, and all who assume office should be aware
of this. It´s a honour, too, but firstly an obligation. Any candidate
for any office should think twice about this.

Valete
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Praetor, Senator




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Subject: [novaroma] Re: Resignation of the Governor of Gaul
From: "A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 10:52:01 -0400
Salve Lucini Sicini: I certainly agree with you about the breaking of oaths by magistrates. And I also believe that there should be serious penalties. But only if they go beyond the nine-day cooling off - reflection period as stated in our laws. This "cooling off' period is very important simply because, as Pompeia Cornelia said, people can let their emotions, their passion for certain strong beliefs, over ride their common sense for a period of time. It can happen to any of us. I am sure you meant only if they go beyond the nine-day cooling off period, when they still have a chance to come to their senses.
I haven't checked, but is there not a proper method for stepping down from office, besides completing the normal year of service? Such as giving notice, and then holding on to your office until a replacement is appointed by the Senate or an election is held?
I can hear your anger Lucini Sicini, and I understand why you feel the way you do, this whole matter really stinks, I feel the same. But I would give them the nine days, right? Like Pompeia Cornelia said, anybody can make a bad mistake, we have to give them the chance to correct it. If they fail at that point, then serious penalties should apply.
Ave atque vale, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, ... Rogator et civis Canada Orientalis N.R.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Subject: [novaroma] Being Apart from Nova Roma
From: cassius622@--------
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 11:06:41 EDT
Salvete,

I've told this story before, but since "resignations" always bring it to my
mind I'll bore everyone with it again. My apologies in advance...

A couple of years ago, Patricia Cassia and I were on a trip to Northumbria,
England, to see the Roman sites at Hadrian's Wall.

One day during the trip, we went to the Roman town of Corbridge, which is
just south of the Wall. It was a gorgeous sunny spring day, and amazingly we
had the *entire* site all to ourselves for hours. Corbridge is the site of a
full town; shops, temples, a Roman garrison station, etc. A wonderful
open-air site with a grand view of the countryside.

After fifteen minutes or so, Patricia Cassia went off site to go read a book.
(Which is her idea of a vacation!) I had an entire Roman town to myself!

It was amazing. I was absolutely filled with, well, "Romanitas." I went
around to the various parts of Corbridge... the Legion commander's house,
with the underground strong room. Here the Eagle of the Sixth Legion was
kept, at least for a time. Orders direct from Rome came here... In the next
block, a temple. To who? If I stood quietly, would I get some sense of the
deity worshipped in this place? And here a shop - oh, if only I could see the
goods displayed as they once were!

Yet after an hour of walking around, I suddenly felt so *alone*. I can't
express how badly I wanted to be a part of Rome, yet the Rome I was standing
in had passed away centuries ago. I was too late! Too late. The pain of
being so abandoned was almost physical. I sat on a piece of crumbled wall,
and tears started to well up...

But no. I know where the Spirit of Rome lives! Centuries late I may be, but I
AM a Roman, and by the Gods, I am part of a community of Romans! Living
Romans! People suddenly more dear to my heart than ever before, people who
understand what is important. Romans who laugh, and squabble, and argue, and
dream, and who build anew. Romans still loyal enough to hear the ancient call
to take up the standards once again, and be a bastion of culture and pietas
in a world all too hurried to forget...

And there I was. Sitting on a piece of wall, in a ruined town, suddenly not
alone at all. Sure, I thought, an interesting place, and the spirit that
built this place is waiting... not here, but back home. I couldn't wait to be
back among you all again.


So. What does this have to do with resignations? Only that I feel badly that
any disagreement among us should lead to someone "exiling" themselves. I've
been "apart," if only for a short time in an ancient Roman town.

I'm not going to beg anyone to return. I'm not sure that a call to "take up
your shield again" is the right thing to do when pain from various problems
has ruined what's really important for someone.

I *will* say that Nova Roma will go on. And, it will change. The issues that
have caused people to attack one another will fade. They always have. After a
time those who have left us may *need* to return, having gained a better
sense of why this place is more important than any short term squabbling.

Anyway. Sorry to bore everyone with this story. Guess it's a way of mine for
working things out. Suddenly I remember why I'm so pleased to be here...

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Subject: [novaroma] Re: Taxation
From: domusludus@--------
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 15:11:28 -0000
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

If you have a bank account, you can pay your taxes *without* getting
a credit card. Run right back to your bank and rip up that
application!!!!!!!!!!! I don't have a credit card, my husband has
several and the creditors would really appreciate him paying the
20,000 dollars he has had to put on them to pay legal bills.


Since I can only assume that you have no money and are accessing the
internet from the public library and outside of the US for that
matter -- being a national holiday and all, I must first say that
they have shelters you really ought to go to. I know the homeless
are a proud lot. I certainly was when *I* was living in a shelter,
but you should also run, not to the bank, but to the State and get
yourself set up with Cash Assistance. They will, most likely, set
you up with Food Stamps. That is a much better deal than giving 30
dollars to some credit card company. It is free to be on welfare,
especially as financially strapped as you and so many other Nova
Romans are.

If for some reason -- like the fact that you were approved for a
credit card or something like that -- you are denied Assistance, I am
willing to carry you for a little while. I am no longer on welfare.
My husband and I have somehow managed to buy a house, feed our kids,
pay for our car, etc on not his income ALONE. Not just that, mind,
but 52% of his income, ad he pays 48% of his income toward Child
Support.

If it will shut you up, I will GLADLY carry you. And you can have
all 12 dollars a year for a minimum of groveling at my feet.

Seia Silvania Atia
Nova Roma Public Assistance Office


- --- In novaroma@--------, Kristoffer From <from@d...> wrote:

>
> This, of course, didn't prevent me from actually aquiring the
> card in question, so now I'm all set up for when the taxes
> are due. "Hit me!" :)
>
> However, if the basic cost to be able to pay taxes is $30,
> apart from the taxes themselves, I, for one, understand that
> some people might feel this a bit much. Maybe, when deciding
> upon the actual taxes, the senate should exempt "poor"
> citizens, instead of just reducing the amount required.
> After all, though there is a difference between $1 and $12,
> the difference between $31 and $42 is procentually MUCH
> smaller, and doesn't reflect the difference in income between
> countries.
>
> I know, tired old subject, shouldn't bring it up again,
> already voted on(it isn't, though, right?), ...:)
>
> Just me stirring up the (virtual) hornet's nest.
>
> Valete,
>
> Titus Octavius Pius,
> Consiliarius Thules,
> Praeco Anarei Thules,
> Scriba to the Curator Araneum
>
> AKA Kristoffer From
>
> ---
>
> Si hoc signum legere potes,
> operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
> et fructuosis potiri potes.
>
> - Not-so-famous quotation
>
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version: 3.1
> GCS d- s:++> a-- C++>$ ULS++ P+ L++ E- W++(--) N
> o-- K- w--- !O M-- V-- PS->$ PE- Y+ PGP- t+@ 5- X-
> R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !x-
- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

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Subject: [novaroma] Re: Resignation of the Governor of Gaul
From: "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 15:15:43 -0000
--- In novaroma@--------, "A. Cato" <a.cato@s...> wrote:
> Salve Lucini Sicini: I certainly agree with you about the breaking
of oaths by magistrates. And I also believe that there should be
serious penalties. But only if they go beyond the nine-day cooling off
- reflection period as stated in our laws. This "cooling off' period
is very important simply because, as Pompeia Cornelia said, people can
let their emotions, their passion for certain strong beliefs, over
ride their common sense for a period of time. It can happen to any of
us. I am sure you meant only if they go beyond the nine-day cooling
off period, when they still have a chance to come to their senses.
> I haven't checked, but is there not a proper method for
stepping down from office, besides completing the normal year of
service? Such as giving notice, and then holding on to your office
until a replacement is appointed by the Senate or an election is held?
> I can hear your anger Lucini Sicini, and I understand why you
feel the way you do, this whole matter really stinks, I feel the same.
But I would give them the nine days, right? Like Pompeia Cornelia
said, anybody can make a bad mistake, we have to give them the chance
to correct it. If they fail at that point, then serious penalties
should apply.
> Ave atque vale, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, ... Rogator
et civis Canada Orientalis N.R.
>
>

Salve,

Under our Leges, these people have NOT violated thier Oath yet. They
will not become Oath Braekers for another 8 Days, and I hope they will
retract thier resignations before the "cooling off" period ends. If
they fail to do this, then it is on thier heads.

As angry as I am, I would not even apply a new Lex against these
citizens. The 9 days will have expired by the time we could pass a
Lex, and to give them the punishment they deserve would be an ex post
facto lex, and a grave injustice. Let them suffer the penalities under
the Leges that existed at the time of thier actions.

As for those who break thier oaths in the future, You have 9 days to
reconsider your actions, then you should face far harsher penalities.

This is for those who REFUSE to follow thier oath. There is a
difference between unable to fullfill an oath for say reasons of
health, and refusing to fullfill an oath for policital reasons.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus




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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Resignation of the Governor of Gaul
From: Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 11:02:42 -0500
Salvete Quirites et M Apolloni et Iane Queri

There is nothing in the oath of office that requires one to serve one's
full term in office. Therefore, one does not become foresworn by
resigning office.

That said, one does break one's oath if one does not do one's best to
act (the oath says "to always act," but we are only human) in the best
interests of the people and Senate of Nova Roma, and if one does not
"fulfill the obligations and responsibilities" of one's office.

Therefore, I would ask those magistrates who have just resigned from the
respublica to postpone their resignation long enough to allow the people
and Senate to choose their replacements. In this way, they can avoid
becoming foresworn and lay down their office with their honor intact.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Ipsa scientia potestas est."
-Francis Bacon



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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Taxation
From: Kristoffer From <from@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 18:17:32 +0200
domusludus@-------- wrote:

> If you have a bank account, you can pay your taxes *without* getting
> a credit card. Run right back to your bank and rip up that
> application!!!!!!!!!!!

>

> If it will shut you up, I will GLADLY carry you. And you can have
> all 12 dollars a year for a minimum of groveling at my feet.

Salve, Seia Silvania Atia.

I appreciate your kind offer, even though I'm afraid I
must refuse...I cannot afford the trip to the US needed
to grovel before you. ;)

I've got a bank account in Sweden...how do you propose that
I pay my taxes from it? The two ways I know of is through
"paypal", and through mailing directly to a magistrate
responsible for tax collection. If the magistrate in question
lived in my Regio, it would be easy enough, particularly
since I wouldn't have to change the money to $US first.
But how would I proceed to pay through paypal without an
internationally valid account, of some sort?

What I'm getting at (this time) is legislation regarding
the manner in which taxes will be collected. In my opinion,
the easiest would be if each propraetor was responsible for
the tax collection in his province, and forwarded the funds
to the central administration. This way, only one official in
each provincia would have to be able to handle the whole
internet-payment deal, and this would relieve the central
administration of some of their work, as well. Perhaps
provincial quaestors should be assigned to each propraetor
for this purpose? Isn't there some historical support for
this method?

Again, this is just me being the pain I always am. Feel
free to do anything but spam me, or send threatening e-mail.
If you do those things, I'll cry for mommy. (My mom, not our
curatrix seremonis. My mom is much meaner. ;) )

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consiliarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

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R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !x-
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Subject: [novaroma] Re: One more resignation
From: "Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 12:26:00 -0400
Salvete,

<<<L. Sergius Aust. Obst. scripsit:

I am still here to uphold the "left-wing" of Nova Roma. I stand with that
notorious Colonial left-winger Thomas Jefferson in having sworn "eternal
hostility to any form of tyranny over the minds of men." (or is it "mind
of Man?" No matter.)>>>

I also am still here. Old hippie me, anti-corporate, anti-imperialistic &
pro-environment. Being a witch doesn't encourage conservatism, at least in
my life :-) So there you are, another stereotype confirmed: the Press is a
leftist-controlled organization (LOL)

Valete,
Helena Galeria





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Subject: [novaroma] Digest No1435 Canada Orientalis New Website
From: "Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 12:40:03 -0400
Salvete et ave Amulius Claudius

I want to thank Petrus for his work, everything looks great.
(however, the provinciae in the US are mis-labled except Nova Britania)

I do have one question though. I notice that some graphics from the "Caesar
III" computer game are used on the site. Isn't this something that needs
permission?

Valete, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus

________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 20:42:15 -0400
> From: Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
> Subject: Canada Orientalis New Website
>
> Just finished up the new site. Wondering what people think.
>
> Its at http://www.freehost.nu/members/canorien/
>
>
>
> Hinc est mei oratio!
>
> --
> Amulius Claudius Petrus
> Civis Canada Orientalis
>






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Subject: [novaroma] Chat server down
From: Bill Gawne <gawne@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 12:40:58 -0400
The Nova Roma chat interface at http://www.novaroma.org/bin/chat/chat
has been down since yesterday evening, US east coast time. Whoever
maintains the service may wish to know this.

Gn. Equitius Marinus




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Subject: [novaroma] Re: Taxation
From: domusludus@--------
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 17:00:39 -0000
--- In novaroma@--------, Kristoffer From <from@d...> wrote:

> I appreciate your kind offer, even though I'm afraid I
> must refuse...I cannot afford the trip to the US needed
> to grovel before you. ;)
>

I'm a very openminded woman. Virtual groveling will do just fine.



> I've got a bank account in Sweden...how do you propose that
> I pay my taxes from it? The two ways I know of is through
> "paypal", and through mailing directly to a magistrate
> responsible for tax collection. If the magistrate in question
> lived in my Regio, it would be easy enough, particularly
> since I wouldn't have to change the money to $US first.
> But how would I proceed to pay through paypal without an
> internationally valid account, of some sort?
>


Get out your checkbook and write a check. Send it to NR (maine, USA,
I would assume. The rate of exchange is:

FXConverter - 164 Currency Converter Results
Monday, May 28, 2001
12 US Dollar = 126.264 Swedish Krona
12 Swedish Krona (SEK) = 1.14047 US Dollar (USD)

Median price was 10.51200 / 10.52200 (bid/ask).
Minimum price was 10.51200 / 10.52200
Maximum price was 10.51200 / 10.52200



In your case, I am sure that the NR Government will take a Swedish
Check, made out for an even 126 Swedish Krona and will exchange it
here. HADES!!!! If you ask particularly nicely and are REALLY
broke, they MAY even take a check for 12 Swedish Krona and eat the
UDS loss.



> What I'm getting at (this time) is legislation regarding
> the manner in which taxes will be collected. In my opinion,
> the easiest would be if each propraetor was responsible for
> the tax collection in his province, and forwarded the funds
> to the central administration. This way, only one official in
> each provincia would have to be able to handle the whole
> internet-payment deal, and this would relieve the central
> administration of some of their work, as well. Perhaps
> provincial quaestors should be assigned to each propraetor
> for this purpose? Isn't there some historical support for
> this method?
>


Don't know, don't care. The People have passed this law and so it is
this law we will live with. I am going to send a check instead of
going through the computer and I'm willing to bet you could too. Ask
the Senate if it's OK for you to deduct the price of the stamp.


> Again, this is just me being the pain I always am. Feel
> free to do anything but spam me, or send threatening e-mail.
> If you do those things, I'll cry for mommy. (My mom, not our
> curatrix seremonis. My mom is much meaner. ;) )
>
> Vale,
>
> Titus Octavius Pius,
> Consiliarius Thules,
> Praeco Anarei Thules,
> Scriba to the Curator Araneum
>
> AKA Kristoffer From
>


I am *trying* to give you alternative ways of paying. Will your next
email be about how you don't have hands or stamps to mail a letter?
You type your emails with your feet or nose and as you're tongue has
just been amputated you cannot give the spit to affix the stamp to
the envelope?

I await your next excuse for not paying taxes.....

Atia




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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Chat server down
From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 12:09:10 -0500 (CDT)
It's back now, sorry.

Vale, O.


> The Nova Roma chat interface at http://www.novaroma.org/bin/chat/chat
> has been down since yesterday evening, US east coast time. Whoever
> maintains the service may wish to know this.
>
> Gn. Equitius Marinus
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator




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Subject: Re: [novaroma] One More Resignation
From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 10:30:19 -0700
Ave,

I have read M. Apollonius's resignation...I still do not think that
there is a problem with Nova Roma. Do you not realize that if he
compromised even ONE INCH this would not be happening now? M.
Apollonius would not compromise on any law. Even when I incorporated
the changes in the original name change edict...he went even FARTHER
Liberal. And, when it got to the point of a gens war between the Gens
Cornelia...he told Secunda Cornelia (the mediator), that he would not be
satisfied til my political power was destroyed and I resigned from Nova
Roma. Publius Sentius, this whole damned series of resignations would
not have occurred if M. Apollonius was willing to compromise. He was
not. The People of Nova Roma voted for the laws, so now he resigned.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Kanat Elibol wrote:
>
> Avete....
> Read this...and read this well!
> Then tell us that there is nothing wrong with the res publica!
> For , if you believe in this, you probably believe in Santa Claus too!
> It is clear that for 'some' all will be better!
> But not for the people of Nova Roma!
> I'm more than sorry to see one more noble man leaving us!
> As I said , there is something 'terribly' wrong with the res
> publica...and with her people ..
> with us!After all it is the 'people' ,it is 'us' which create a nation!
> I just hope that the Gods will give us the wisdom of taking lessons
> from our past mistakes
> together with the strength for defending our beliefs and rights in the
> future!
> Valete bene...
> Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion



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Subject: [novaroma] Request for Candidates
From: Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 12:47:39 -0500
Tribunus Plebis T Labienus Plebibus et Censoribus et Rogatoribus et
Curatori Araneae SPD

(Propraetores: if you are able, please have this announcement translated
into whatever language is appropriate for your provincia and provide
that translation to your cives.)

It currently appears that one of our aediles plebis is resigning his
post. Unless he changes his mind, I must hold an election to replace
him within the next thirty days. I am currently expecting to issue the
call to assemble next month, with voting to begin sometime in the long
string of dies comitiales that follow the Quinquartrus Vesta (15 June).

Therefore, I am now warning the censores, rogatores, and curator araneae
that this action is relatively imminent, and I am asking for those
plebeians who are interested in taking up the office to let me know of
their intention to do so.

* The duties and powers of an aedilis plebis are:

I. To issue those edicta (edicts) necessary to see to the conduct of
public games and other festivals and gatherings, to ensure order at
public religious events, to see to the maintenance of any real public
facilities that the State should acquire, and to administer the law
(such edicts being binding upon themselves as well as others);

II. To pronounce intercessio against another plebeian aedile or
magistrate of lesser authority;

III. To appoint scribae (clerks) to assist with administrative and other
tasks, as he shall see fit.

* Candidates should:

I. contact me *privately* to have their name placed upon the ballot. If
you wish to begin campaigning early, I ask that you respect M
Apollonius' reconsideration nundina before doing so. After all, the
election may be unnecessary, and the procedures for the Concilium Plebis
provide at least 5 days in which to campaign between the call to
assemble and the beginning of voting. Also, the main list is often
quite active, and I rarely have time to read it as closely as I would
like. Therefore, a private message to me will ensure that I am aware of
your desire to run for office, as well as make my life slightly easier.

II. be willing to swear the oath of office, located at
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/lex99191002.html .

III. be at least 21 years of age by the time they assume office, as
required by Lex Iunia de Magistratum Aetate (
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/lex99211201.html ). Before issuing
the official call to assemble, I will ask the censores to verify that
each candidate complies with this lex. If you want to obtain an
exemption from the lex from the Senate, you must do so before I will add
you to the ballot. Considering the pace at which Senate business is
conducted, I strongly suggest that you make your request for such an
exemption to Senate as soon as possible.

IV. have been a civis in good standing for at least six (6) months, as
required by Lex Vedia de Curso Honorum (
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/lex-2001-02-26-i.html ).

V. be plebeian, as required by section IV.A.5 of the constitution (
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/constitution_new2.html ).

(Note that nothing stops a civis from campaigning for office, even if I
do not put his or her name on the ballot. Should such a candidate
comply with the leges cited above and win the vote, his or her tenure in
office would be legal and valid.)

* Finally, a suggestion regarding campaign strategy:

As you can see from their powers and duties, the aediles are meant to
provide entertainment for and support to the Respublica. They maintain
the infrastructure and morale of Nova Roma. In that spirit, I would
hope that candidates for the office would campaign with Concordia in
mind and avoid the mud-slinging, calumniation, and acrimony that
currently plague our politics.

Valete



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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Resignation of the Governor of Gaul
From: "Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 17:48:28 -0000
Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:


>>
>Ave,
>
>I will admit that right now I feel a lot of anger towards those who
>break sacred oaths. This is NOT some stupid RPG where your Roman
>character is swearing an oath. If there are any who look at Nova Roma
>in that light, You are more tham welcome to submit your resignation
>right NOW, and go play Dungeons & Dragons.

Pompeia: Well, I for one do not feel that Nova Roma is a roleplaying game.
And, I think my participation in Nova Roma might reveal atleast some element
of sincerity on my part. Resignations are to be discouraged, especially
magisterial ones, but Nova Roma is made up human beings who are capable of
making spontaneous, poor decisions based on misinformation and other
factors. To say that all such persons (and there have been several) are not
dedicated and view NR as a roleplaying game is a bit rigid. You are
swinging to far extremes in your thinking, in my view. If we didn't care, we
wouldn't have returned within a day or two.
>
>This is REAL. We are talking about people breaking a sacred oath, In
>effect telling the Gods they swore that oath by "F... Off" because
>they are upset that everything isn't going thier way.

Pompeia; Give them a chance please. They have only been gone a day or two.
That is what the nine-day period is all about in the resignation lex. You
are allowed nine days to come to your senses...because we are human. We
have feelings. We falter. I am not in favour of hurling everyone off the
Tarpein Rock the day after they resign.

>
>I am very sad to lose the talent, and the commitment to Romanits that
>many of these citizens displayed. Nova Roma is poorer today than she
>was prior the resignations on the Ides of March and yesterday.

Pompeia: I am equally saddened.
>
>However if we continue to look the other way as Magistrates become
>Oath Breakers, Then we are joining them in insulting the Gods. We may
>not be able to stop people from breaking thier oaths, but we can and
>must make it plain that this caviler attitude towards the Gods is NOT
>condoned by Nova Roma.

Pompeia: We can look the other way, once, in my humble opinion.
>
>This round of resignations only saw a couple of Magistrates start on
>the path towards becoming Oath Breakers, and I hope they reconsider
>what they are doing. It was far worse on the Ides when we not only saw
>people break oaths to serve the state, but also citizens walking out
>on thier postions in the Religio, adding a worse insult to the Immortals.
>
>For this reason I call on our Magistrates to provide strict penalities
>for Magistrates that break thier Oaths.
>
>I also ask those who hold postions in the Religio to give us a Lex
>Sacra that provides even harsher penalities for those violate thier
>Oaths to serve duties towards the Gods.

Pompeia: You are certainly pontificating high standards. I am sure the
Gods are aware of our human frailties, Drusus. They don't want us to
repeatedly break promises and oaths, but conversely, they don't expect us to
"walk a tightrope to heaven" either.
>
>I am aware that a citizen may have to relenquish a postion for reasons
>of health, or finances, and these Leges should take this into
>consideration. My complaint is with those who break thier oaths over
>policital matters.

Bene vale,
Pompeia
>
>Vale,
>L. Sicinius Drusus
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Taxation
From: Kristoffer From <from@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 20:02:26 +0200
domusludus@-------- wrote:

> Get out your checkbook and write a check. Send it to NR (maine, USA,
> I would assume.

>

> The People have passed this law and so it is this law we will live with

> I am going to send a check instead of going through the computer and I'm

> willing to bet you could too.

Salve, Seia Silvania Atia.

My checkbook? Haven't got one. Checks aren't normally used
in Swedish monetary exchanges. I've actually never seen a
check, except on TV, in my entire life. Different countries,
different customs.

And regarding the law, the only laws regarding taxation I'm
aware of, is the one giving the senate the right to set the
taxes to whatever level they feel like, and the recently
approved lex Vedia, detailing the consequences of not paying
your taxes. No laws regarding the manner in which the taxes
are going to be collected have been passed, to my knowledge.

In conclusion, just in case I didn't make myself clear on
this particular subject. It is not for myself I'm bringing
up this issue. I don't have any REAL problems with paying
the taxes, though some inconvenience has crept along. Mostly,
I would like us to have some sort of system for the
collection of said taxes, along with the recognition that
when the tax rates are set, not everybody should be taxed at
all. As stated earlier, if the minimum tax is $1, a really
small amount, some people might be forced to pay $31 instead,
as well as be approved for a credit card.

Since taxes are individual in macronations, shouldn't our
taxes be the same? Say $12 for everyone, and if anyone wants
reduced taxes, they can do so with the approval of their
propraetor, or his quaestor, along with my earlier proposal
of provincial quaestors...doesn't this sound doable?

Vale,
Titus Octavius Pius,
Consiliarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

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R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !x-
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Subject: [novaroma] Some remarks
From: <bekaert.stefaan@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 19:21:34 +0200
Salvete,

In the storm going through Nova Roma the past few days following the many resignations, I've noticed two things:

1) There are still people that the cives of Nova Roma can trust, people that are truly concerned about Nova Roma in a respectfull way, people I would like to thank for how they responded to all this and, most of all, people who are a bless for Nova Roma in my opinion.

2) But what has struck me the most is the way in which other people have reacted to this. I won't be calling names, since I do not want to be considered as immature as they are, but some reactions were just plain childish. Adults acting like little children, adults trying to make the gens Apollonia look as the criminals of Nova Roma, adults that are, even now, still attacking the former members of the gens Apollonia to make themselves look less guily....adults that laughed at Draco for being 17 years old.

I was truly touched by the many reactions, urging us to "pick up our shields and fight on", but being 18 years old (as is Draco now) I find it sad to conclude that we have more dignity than some of the adults here, some of them even with high functions. I will probably be laughed at because I dare saying things like this, but I truly believe this to be true and will therefor not come back at my decision to resign.

To all those I truly admire in Nova Roma, Valete
Lucius Apollonius Aquila


"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
- Hamlet -


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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Subject: [novaroma] Learn something new every day -- was taxation
From: domusludus@--------
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 18:26:34 -0000
--- In novaroma@--------, Kristoffer From <from@d...> wrote:

>
> Salve, Seia Silvania Atia.
>
> My checkbook? Haven't got one. Checks aren't normally used
> in Swedish monetary exchanges. I've actually never seen a
> check, except on TV, in my entire life. Different countries,
> different customs.
>


Well, how about that!! Learn something new every day!!!!!!!




>
> In conclusion, just in case I didn't make myself clear on
> this particular subject. It is not for myself I'm bringing
> up this issue. I don't have any REAL problems with paying
> the taxes, though some inconvenience has crept along. Mostly,
> I would like us to have some sort of system for the
> collection of said taxes, along with the recognition that
> when the tax rates are set, not everybody should be taxed at
> all. As stated earlier, if the minimum tax is $1, a really
> small amount, some people might be forced to pay $31 instead,
> as well as be approved for a credit card.
>


Well, so far it has been law for almost a whole week and no one has
paid up cent one! If they say next year that I must pay 1000 USD
then they can kiss my .... signet ring <G>. However, I know most of
the people who propose the laws and they aren't stupit enough to do
something like that. They know people would stop sending flaming
email and hit the street looking for them. Taxes are bound to
increase. Worry about it when the time comes. *I* have not signed
any contract saying I will remain in Nova Roma till death do we part,
through all sorts of rediculous tax laws. They start acting silly
and I'm gone. and going from 12 bucks to 1000 is silly.



> Since taxes are individual in macronations, shouldn't our
> taxes be the same? Say $12 for everyone, and if anyone wants
> reduced taxes, they can do so with the approval of their
> propraetor, or his quaestor, along with my earlier proposal
> of provincial quaestors...doesn't this sound doable?
>
> Vale,
> Titus Octavius Pius,
> Consiliarius Thules,
> Praeco Anarei Thules,
> Scriba to the Curator Araneum
>
> AKA Kristoffer From
>


What are you required to pay? 12 USD or is there something I
missed? If someone wants reduced taxes they should take it up with
the Senate. If they want to go through everyone else first, that's
on them. The men in the Senate aren't unreasonable (and *I* ought to
know, I have called these people all manner of names and not gotten
half of the punishment my disrespect deserved). Exceptions WILL be
made, I have no doubt.

Atia




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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Learn something new every day -- was taxation
From: Kristoffer From <from@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 20:48:24 +0200
domusludus@-------- wrote:

> What are you required to pay? 12 USD or is there something I
> missed? If someone wants reduced taxes they should take it up with
> the Senate. If they want to go through everyone else first, that's
> on them. The men in the Senate aren't unreasonable (and *I* ought to
> know, I have called these people all manner of names and not gotten
> half of the punishment my disrespect deserved). Exceptions WILL be
> made, I have no doubt.

Salve, Seia Silvania Atia.

I don't believe there currently ARE any requirements to pay
anything at all to Nova Roma. We've just established that
the senate has the right to demand taxes, and the punishment
for those who refuse to do so.

However, regarding exceptions, I doubt that the senate will
have the time or resources to deal with every citizen
requiring an exception to made, and they certainly have no
guidelines to assist them in the process. That is what I'm
suggesting, that the senate shouldn't have to deal with this,
but instead leave it to the financial magistrates of Nova
Roma, the Quaestors, or the provincial governors, or better
yet, assign provincial quaestors, who deal with this, along
with actually collecting the taxes, thereby easing the
process along.

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consiliarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

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R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !x-
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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Resignations
From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 19:45:27 +0200
Salvete,

After receiving several e-mails from kind people, I would stay a Citizen of
Nova Roma. For those of you who e-mailed me privately, I extend my heartfelt
thanks.

Let me assure you that my decision to resign was not made on a whim, but was
a product of burnout over some time. My decision to remain is not made on a
whim either. I will not bore you with what is, at this point, simply a
series of gripes, complaints and whining. After I've had some time to work
through some of my ill-feelings, I will offer some (hopefully) constructive
posts on communication, debate, comradery, and belonging.

I apologize to the Citizens of Nova Roma for my petulant behavior. To those
of you who have posted their resignations recently, I can only say that I
hope you will reconsider also.

Valete,
Lucius Tiberius Sardonicus

Salve Illustrus Quaestor Lucius Tiberius Sardonicus!

Thank You for staying!

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
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Subject: Re: [novaroma] One More Resignation
From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 20:55:18 +0200

>M. Apollonius Formosanus Aedilis Plebeius, Paterfamilias Gentis
>Apolloniae, Moderator et Praeceptor et Redactor Sodalitatis
>Latinitatis, atque Amicus Dignitatis
>
>Many will be glad that I am resigning my citizenship in Nova Roma.
>Many - perhaps mostly less loud a presence - will regret it,
>including I myself. Attend me *one* more time:


Salve Illustrus Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, former Aedilis Plebeius!

I am sad now and You have made me sad before. I wish that You would have
been as talented in compromising as you are in expressing your opinions.
Nova Roma now in You looses a man that is filled of his convictions and
sometimes blind to others's arguments, but also a very resourceful and
intelligent citizen. Yes, Nova Roma may become a more tranquil place after
You have left, but maybe also less interesting.

You now leave me without an Aedile to serve, but my duty to You haven't
been heavy. Even though I from the beginning made it clear that I would not
become a member of your "party", You have been very kind and helped me with
the Latin terms and titles, that I have needed in my capacity as Propraetor
Thules. To me You have always been friendly and I will miss our personal
relation in Nova Roma. I wish You luck in your future endeavours! Farewell!

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
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************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
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************************************************
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Subject: [novaroma] Re: Some remarks
From: "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 18:54:37 -0000
--- In novaroma@--------, <bekaert.stefaan@p...> wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> In the storm going through Nova Roma the past few days following the
many resignations, I've noticed two things:
>
> 1) There are still people that the cives of Nova Roma can trust,
people that are truly concerned about Nova Roma in a respectfull way,
people I would like to thank for how they responded to all this and,
most of all, people who are a bless for Nova Roma in my opinion.
>
> 2) But what has struck me the most is the way in which other people
have reacted to this. I won't be calling names, since I do not want to
be considered as immature as they are, but some reactions were just
plain childish. Adults acting like little children, adults trying to
make the gens Apollonia look as the criminals of Nova Roma, adults
that are, even now, still attacking the former members of the gens
Apollonia to make themselves look less guily....adults that laughed at
Draco for being 17 years old.
>
> I was truly touched by the many reactions, urging us to "pick up our
shields and fight on", but being 18 years old (as is Draco now) I find
it sad to conclude that we have more dignity than some of the adults
here, some of them even with high functions. I will probably be
laughed at because I dare saying things like this, but I truly believe
this to be true and will therefor not come back at my decision to resign.
>
> To all those I truly admire in Nova Roma, Valete
> Lucius Apollonius Aquila
>
>
> "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt
of in your philosophy.
> - Hamlet -
>

Oh, come on!

No One is making your entire Gens out to be criminals.

The only "criminal" talk centers around magistrates that break thier
oaths, and that thread started BEFORE your Pater tendered his
resignation. The Talk about Oath Breakers has NOTHING to do with the
members of your Gens who aren't Magistrates, or for that matter the
People who are in the Process of breaking thier sacred oaths. It
concerns thier actions, NOT them as persons.

This is an example of the problems we are having in our policital
discussions. Taking an action and making it into a personal attack.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus




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Subject: [novaroma] Name change
From: Andrea Gladia Cyrene <andrea_gladia@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 12:35:59 -0700 (PDT)
Salvete omnes,


After a good deal of thought and some minor persuasion, I have changed
my nickname to be a more accurate, Latinized version of my Greek name.
Hopefully this will also alleviate confusion between my name here
within Nova Roma and elsewhere.

For those of you who know your mythology, you may be familiar with the
city of Cyrene. Legends in ancient Greece have it that the name was in
honor of a maiden named Kyrene, the one and only maiden that I have
ever found that got along with Apollo who was not a family member, nor
was she killed, cursed, or turned into a tree. Apollo found her on top
of a mountain, wrestling lions. He was so impressed by her show of
strength that he proposed to her and had a city named in her honor.

Because of my great love and respect for my patron deity, I had chosen
the name Kyrene as my religious name in the hopes of attaining and
aspiring to such strength. Cyrene is the Latin spelling of this name,
as many Greek names were spelled with a "c" when translated. Other
such examples would include Cassandra (Kassandra), Achilles (Akhilles),
and Cerberus (Kerberos).

My name now will be Andrea Gladia Cyrene, a much more apppropriate and
Latin version of this name.



Valete,

=====
Andrea Gladia Cyrene
Apollinis Templi Sacerdotis
Materfamilias of Gladia
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Subject: Re: [novaroma] One More Resignation
From: Kanat Elibol <kelibol@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 23:15:31 +0300



Ave..
Allow me to make my point clearer...when I say that 'there is
something wrong with the
res publica' I didn't mean that it doesn't function properly..I meant
that 'there is something
wrong with us'...with our relations,our manners,our attitudes towards
the people who don't
think as we do!Why we became so intolerant ?Is it so hard to accept
the diversity between
our thoughts?And is it so hard to work together though we may have
different countries
different languages and different expectations from NR?Do we have to
call each other with
silly names ,throw insults and sometimes grenades in order to be heard
in politics ?Do all the
people have to believe what we believe ?And should we keep on
pestering them till they beg
for mercy or leave the arena?
Now,your efforts of peace offer are noble just as your
deeds...and the reason of their refusal is unknown
to us!But to believe that those people have resigned just because of
the recently passed leges
is something I find as 'unbelieveable'...
They and the others have left us because somehow we
lost our patience,common
sense,maturity and in short we seem to lost some part of our
Humanitas!I just hope that we
can bring those values back among us or we will continue to loose blood!
That was what I meant...and this is the longest post
I've ever sent to the list!Because
I hate to see some good people leave us...no matter how I agree or
disagree with their views...I
believe, or want to believe, we are all sharing the same feeling...
Vale bene..
Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



>Ave,
>
>I have read M. Apollonius's resignation...I still do not think that
>there is a problem with Nova Roma. Do you not realize that if he
>compromised even ONE INCH this would not be happening now? M.
>Apollonius would not compromise on any law. Even when I incorporated
>the changes in the original name change edict...he went even FARTHER
>Liberal. And, when it got to the point of a gens war between the Gens
>Cornelia...he told Secunda Cornelia (the mediator), that he would not be
>satisfied til my political power was destroyed and I resigned from Nova
>Roma. Publius Sentius, this whole damned series of resignations would
>not have occurred if M. Apollonius was willing to compromise. He was
>not. The People of Nova Roma voted for the laws, so now he resigned.
>
>Respectfully,
>
>Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>Kanat Elibol wrote:
> >
> > Avete....
> > Read this...and read this well!
> > Then tell us that there is nothing wrong with the res publica!
> > For , if you believe in this, you probably believe in Santa
> Claus too!
> > It is clear that for 'some' all will be better!
> > But not for the people of Nova Roma!
> > I'm more than sorry to see one more noble man leaving us!
> > As I said , there is something 'terribly' wrong with the res
> > publica...and with her people ..
> > with us!After all it is the 'people' ,it is 'us' which create a nation!
> > I just hope that the Gods will give us the wisdom of taking lessons
> > from our past mistakes
> > together with the strength for defending our beliefs and rights in the
> > future!
> > Valete bene...
> > Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion
>
>
>
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Subject: [novaroma] Oppius Flaccus Severus -Oath of Office: Quaestor
From: "Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:35:30 -0700
Salvete Quiritibus;

As I have now attained my official six-month citizenship
mark as of today, the Oath of Office for Quaestor will
now be announced:
---------------------------

I, Oppius Flaccus Severus (Cxxxxx x. Lxxxxxx) do hereby solemnly swear
to uphold the honor of Nova Roma and to always act in the best interests
of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Oppius Flaccus Severus (Cxxxxx x. Lxxxxxx)
swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Roma in my public dealings and to
pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Oppius Flaccus Severus (Cxxxxx x. Lxxxxxx,) swear to uphold and defend
the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova roma and swear never
to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Oppius Flaccus Severus (Cxxxxx x. Lxxxxxx,) swear to protect and defend
the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Oppius Flaccus Severus (Cxxxxx x. Lxxxxxx,) further swear to fulfill
the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Quaestor to the
best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods
and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept
the position of Quaestor and all the rights, privileges, obligations and
responsibilities attendant thereto.

Bene valete and Gratias Multas for electing me to this honor;
Oppius Flaccus Severus, Quaestor of Nova Roma.

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Subject: [novaroma] Re: Recent Events -Response to Cato
From: "Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:56:06 -0700
Salvete Appi Tulli et Omnes;

Appius Tullius writes:
Salve Oppi Flacce: I am one of those who have been "thowing the virtues
around" to some extent. But that is because I believe in them. If I didn't,
I wouldn't care. That is the only part of your very eloquent and
to-the-point letter that we perhaps might disagree about. You have written
an excellent post, and I am sure many people will agree with me on that.
Your statements are concise, and plainly worded, which I think will perhaps
get through to people in a way more complicated statements would perhaps
would fail to do. I look forward to reading more of your thoughts in the
future. And again, many congratulations on your upcoming position as
Quaestor.

OFS: Gratias multas for the kind words regarding my post. I am
hopeful that it was taken as intended and whether or not
any portions of it were agreed with by the rest of our
great nation, we'll at least know where I stand. -Something
I'd personally like to understand about all of our citizens here.

I do need to briefly address one point though on redirect -regarding
the virtues. Since I've just completed my oath as Quaestor, it seems
an appropriate time to clarify to you (and to anyone else interested,)
what was intended regarding the Virtues.

I understand and respect your belief and practice of the Virtues.
Though we don't know each other personally, from your posts it
seems that you do truly believe and live them on a daily basis.
In fact, a good many (most if not all,) of us attempt to do this
in our own way in one form or another. The issue again comes
back to a matter of *interpretation* and *application.* (Ah, like
so many things in NR eh amice?) As was said in a previous post
-of the 899 cives here, we likely have just as many interpretations
of the Virtues. (Merely an observation, not a judgment call on my part.)

As a civis, magistrate and priest -I also live them and have my
own interpretations. Though I won't go into depth here, my point
I for one do not see the Virtues as something equivalent to say
the "Ten Commandments" or other forms of holy law. Many of our
citizens *do* see them this way (not that you yourself do,) and
this is how they are "tossed about" in discussion. In other
words having posts that can't get to the root of the matter
because people are accusing others of being more or less
'virtuous' than other cives gets no closer to the crux
of the dialog.

This is an area of hot contention among many of us (like so
many other things :-) and is hotly debated and discussed on
other NR mailing lists. Eventually I am hopeful that NR
will have some sort of 'official' or at least 'favored'
way of espousing the Virtues to the outside world, but until
that time it will continue to make for some interesting
debate. -We likely do not necessarily 'disagree' on the
Virtues themselves; it is just our individual interpretations
that differ.

Bene valete in Pace Deorum,
Oppius


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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Resignation
From: Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 18:39:13 -0300
Ave,

I can only agree with the feeling that this is Nova America and not Nova
Roma,
begin with the statements on our constitution where the US citizens read
something totally different then the rest of the world.
Res Publica Romana means Roman Commonwealth, nothing less, nothing more.
Reading in this "Republic" a modern USA sense is just stupid.
We all read the constitution and became citizens of a micronation with a
democratic constituion whos aim was to reconstruct the roman
commonwealth.

Obviously in the view of our current leaders we were tricked into
something which has nothing to do with this, they want to build an
ultra-rightist US
micronation with descriminatory views on language, gender etc.

Instead of purely resigning and leaving behind our dream of rebuilding
the
Roman Commonwealth, I think we should create Roma Resurgens whos goal
would be
just that.

Resigning is not the best solution, secession seems far better to me.

Salve,

Manius Villius Limitanus.



Mark A Bird wrote:
>
> Ave Marcus Marcius Rufus
>
> Don't be silly - don't resign - I think it is more US also but who cares - I
> am an Ozzie - but look at it this way - it is Nova Roma - a place where we
> call all be - to bull shit with Politics - get back to the basics - this is
> Roma re born - it goes to all of you who resigned today - come back -
> reflect on what this really is - be damned with the Political games ...
>
> Marcus Sentius Claudius
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: marciusrufus@-------- [mailto:marciusrufus@--------]
> Sent: Monday, 28 May 2001 4:16 Pm
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] Resignation
>
> Quirites
>
> I, Marcus Marcius Rufus do hereby resign to Nova Roma citizenship.
> The major reason of my resignation is that res publica is more Nova
> America than Nova Roma, and I do not want to participate on state
> like this.
>
> I was not very active, but I carefuly watched all political conflicts
> in this list. As I could see that was pure fights for greater power.
> And anyone who tries to say the truth was asked to leave.
>
> I want to express my thanks to my paterfamilias Gaius Marcius
> Coriolanus. I also want to expres my respect to Marcus Apollonius
> Formosanus, Sextus Apollonius Draco, Petrus Artorius Longinus,
> Quintus Setorius, all members of gens Marcia, and some others.
>
> Vale
> Ex cives Nova Romanus
> Marcus Marcius Rufus
>
> " Recipe ferrum "
>
>
>
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Subject: [novaroma] Thank You Fellow Civis!
From: Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 15:47:12 -0400
As the title says, I do sincerely thank the many of you who gave me there
very kind responses to the new Canada Orientalis website. I am honoured to
have the opportunity to serve the res publica in any small way I can.

Propraetrix Pompeia Cornelia, I noticed you request for candidates and I
would be more than happy to sign on though being a Patrician I am not
qualified unfortunately. I am looking to getting into politics though in the
future hope that an opportunity may come up again where I can better serve
our nation. Until then I shall be content will my current job.

One more thing I need to address with you Propraetrix, I need to you write a
letter to the civis that can be posted on the introduction page of the
website. When you have the time to do this small task I would greatly
appreciate it.



Hinc est mei oratio!

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Civis Canada Orientalis
Canada Orientalis Website Scribae
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien





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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Some remarks
From: TSardonicus@--------
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 15:50:15 EDT
In a message dated 5/28/01 11:17:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
bekaert.stefaan@-------- writes:

> I was truly touched by the many reactions, urging us to "pick up our
shields
> and fight on", but being 18 years old (as is Draco now) I find it sad to
> conclude that we have more dignity than some of the adults here, some of
them
> even with high functions.

Salve,

Maturity is relative. I'm 38 and sometimes I act like a child; as I've
proven. However, the broad statement that you have more dignity that some of
the adults here is something I suspect every parent has heard from their
14-25 year old offspring from the beginning of time.

Please don't take this the wrong way. It's not my intention to demean you
because of your age. But, to reiterate your own quotation:

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy".
- Hamlet -

One of the things I find difficult to deal with in NR is that some people
have used a single view on an issue as the basis for broad, sweeping,
condemnations.

"Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater".
-American colloquialism

Vale,
LTS




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Subject: [novaroma] Re:Resignations are Good?!
From: Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 16:41:48 -0400
(Note: I am only talking about the people who resigned because they did not
like laws are being criticised)


Salve civis et amicus,

I have been quietly watching the many resignations of high members of our
government and have said nothing because of the fact that I that in my
opinion there was not much for me to say. Though I see the question "why is
this happening?". I do not have the answer for that question. Though I do
not understand why people see it as a bad thing. It is good thing!

Now you may be puzzled and my statement though when you look at it from,
"outside the box" it is very simple. If you are going to take up the great
responsibility of leading this nation you must have certain qualities. A few
are:

Endurance:
You can take criticism and use it to build your own base to convince others
of your opinions and not let it affect you personally.

Loyalty:
You are loyal to the republic no matter what situation you face.

Commitment:
You are committed to do a good job because you swore you would do so.

Motivation:
You want to see that you are the best you can be at your job because again,
you swore you would do so.

Now by resigning after you took up the commitment after being chosen by the
people to work for the good of the people is no way to show you have any of
the qualities above. Do you want these people to have great power! If they
cannot do their duties and must resign then they are in one sense "being
weeded out" natuarly. The position is open again for us to elect a civis who
possesses all of the qualities the job needs are maybe more. Even though the
people who resigned may be dedicated to Nova Roma still they are obviously
not as dedicated as you though they where when you elected them.

Do not despair! They only showed us a not so nice quality they process!
Though we have another chance to elect the right man/woman for the job. I
say good riddance to the civis who resigned. It may be a pain to hold more
election though in the end we come out ahead. The beauty of democracy...



Hinc est mei oratio!

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Civis Canada Orientalis
Canada Orientalis Website Scribae
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Subject: [novaroma] Offical Virtues
From: Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 17:09:02 -0400


Oppius wrote:
>> This is an area of hot contention among many of us (like so
>> many other things :-) and is hotly debated and discussed on
>> other NR mailing lists. Eventually I am hopeful that NR
>> will have some sort of 'official' or at least 'favored'
>> way of espousing the Virtues to the outside world, but until
>> that time it will continue to make for some interesting
>> debate. -We likely do not necessarily 'disagree' on the
>> Virtues themselves; it is just our individual interpretations
>> that differ.


It is absolutely necessary we develop a official set of virtues in my eyes.
If we can establish this I think it would be a great step forward for our
nation in all aspects in witch it stands for.



Hinc est mei oratio!

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Civis Canada Orientalis
Canada Orientalis Website Scribae
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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Taxation
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 14:58:51 -0700 (PDT)
Salvete omnes; et salve, Tite Octavi Pii.

--- Kristoffer From <from@--------> wrote:

<<snipped>>

> This, of course, didn't prevent me from actually aquiring the
> card in question, so now I'm all set up for when the taxes
> are due. "Hit me!" :)

I am sorry to tell you this so late, but maybe there is another option.
Some banks produce a "cybercard" which is specially designed for
shopping in the Internet. At least one Spanish bank, La Caixa, provides
this service with no charge. And it's a "cash" card, not a credit card;
you have just a set amount of money on it, and you have to "reload" it
in an ATM once you have spent it.

I am not sure about all these points; a co-citizen of Hispania told me
this was the way they did it. However, I guess that some bank in your
vicinity might be providing a sinilar service.

I am also extremely interested on this issue, as I have no Visa (or any
other kind of credit card). Please do suggest any options.




=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Resignation
From: LSergAust@--------
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 18:03:39 EDT

Where is this "ultra-rightist US micronation" with the discriminatory
views? I think we should steer clear of it wherever it is. It doesn't
have any connection to Nova Roma.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.


On 5/28/01 4:39 PM Michel Loos (loos@--------) wrote:

[snipped]
>Obviously in the view of our current leaders we were tricked into
>something which has nothing to do with this, they want to build an
>ultra-rightist US
>micronation with descriminatory views on language, gender etc.
>
>Instead of purely resigning and leaving behind our dream of rebuilding
>the
>Roman Commonwealth, I think we should create Roma Resurgens whos goal
>would be
>just that.
>
>Resigning is not the best solution, secession seems far better to me.
>
>Salve,
>
>Manius Villius Limitanus.
>
>


certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)




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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Resignation
From: "L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 15:13:27 -0700
Ave,

Senator...I believe they make it up. They try to create devisiveness where
there really isn't any so they can try to create a faction and try to gain
power. There is no law on Nova Roma's Tabularium that is discriminatory, at
all! So, it is the conclusion that I have come up with....they make it
up...they created the conflict between Europeans and Americans....the name
change edict....the resignation edict....the concept of taxes...Instead of
working toward solutions and trying to build Pax and Concordia they try to
forment dissension and arguement.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

on 5/28/01 3:03 PM, LSergAust@-------- at LSergAust@-------- wrote:

>
> Where is this "ultra-rightist US micronation" with the discriminatory
> views? I think we should steer clear of it wherever it is. It doesn't
> have any connection to Nova Roma.
>
> Vale,
>
> L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
>
>
> On 5/28/01 4:39 PM Michel Loos (loos@--------) wrote:
>
> [snipped]
>> Obviously in the view of our current leaders we were tricked into
>> something which has nothing to do with this, they want to build an
>> ultra-rightist US
>> micronation with descriminatory views on language, gender etc.
>>
>> Instead of purely resigning and leaving behind our dream of rebuilding
>> the
>> Roman Commonwealth, I think we should create Roma Resurgens whos goal
>> would be
>> just that.
>>
>> Resigning is not the best solution, secession seems far better to me.
>>
>> Salve,
>>
>> Manius Villius Limitanus.
>>
>>
>
>
> certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
>
> (You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject: Re: [novaroma] Resignation
From: "L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 15:17:01 -0700
Ave,

Senator...I believe they make it up. They try to create devisiveness where
there really isn't any so they can try to create a faction and try to gain
power. There is no law on Nova Roma's Tabularium that is discriminatory, at
all! So, it is the conclusion that I have come up with....they make it
up...they created the conflict between Europeans and Americans....the name
change edict....the resignation edict....the concept of taxes...Instead of
working toward solutions and trying to build Pax and Concordia they try to
forment dissension and arguement.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

on 5/28/01 3:03 PM, LSergAust@-------- at LSergAust@-------- wrote:

>
> Where is this "ultra-rightist US micronation" with the discriminatory
> views? I think we should steer clear of it wherever it is. It doesn't
> have any connection to Nova Roma.
>
> Vale,
>
> L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
>
>
> On 5/28/01 4:39 PM Michel Loos (loos@--------) wrote:
>
> [snipped]
>> Obviously in the view of our current leaders we were tricked into
>> something which has nothing to do with this, they want to build an
>> ultra-rightist US
>> micronation with descriminatory views on language, gender etc.
>>
>> Instead of purely resigning and leaving behind our dream of rebuilding
>> the
>> Roman Commonwealth, I think we should create Roma Resurgens whos goal
>> would be
>> just that.
>>
>> Resigning is not the best solution, secession seems far better to me.
>>
>> Salve,
>>
>> Manius Villius Limitanus.
>>
>>
>
>
> certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
>
> (You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject: Re: [novaroma] Musings of the List Mommy-Important Info
From: Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 15:17:50 -0700 (PDT)
Salve Vedia,

I have been away some time, so my post is belated. I
would definitely check the laws governing corporations
in NH as well as Yahoo's own policies before I
continued in this line. Please do not take this as a
threat. I happen to live in NH and am familiar with
the Secretary of State's Office's particular interest
in registered corporations. Small State, large
office.

Ias.
--- JusticeCMO <justicecmo@--------> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> I come before you quite troubled this evening,
> and...quite frankly.......not
> just a little irritated. You see, I expected some
> degree of friction on
> this List, and I certainly expected this to be a
> time consuming job, those
> things do not bother me. The recent demonstrations
> of cowardice and
> immaturity do, however. They bother me greatly and
> I resent that some of
> our current List members are wasting my time (and
> List space very
> occasionally) with such juvenile games.
>
> A bit of background may help to clarify things for
> those of you not privy to
> behind the scenes events. Back around mid-February
> I made the decision to
> moderate *all* new members of this List. I did so
> due to a spate of
> spammers and trolls posting what I call "hit and
> run" attacks. Such
> behavior, we can all agree, is inappropriate. I
> have had numerous occasions
> to be grateful for my decision, mostly due to
> commercial spammers in the
> intervening months.
>
> Now, however, we have a new form of idiocy taking
> place. List members are
> creating false names and subscribing to this list.
> Thanks to the
> moderation, I have been able to catch and
> delete/deal with all "hit and run"
> attacks they have attempted. Seems, despite the
> fact that the policy of
> moderation is clearly spelled out in the "welcome"
> text they each received
> when their fake names subscribed, they were unaware
> of the policy until
> their attempts at trouble-making were thwarted and
> they got verbally slapped
> down in private for their efforts.
>
> Which brings us to to today's abortive "poll".
> Seems our little trolls are
> getting clever and trying to find ways around
> me.....much like small willful
> will children do.......and they did, indeed, find
> such a way by creating the
> "poll". Well, never fear, I and my trusty scribes,
> are on the job and
> quickly shut down that loophole. Effective as of
> about 8:30pm this evening
> no one other than moderators may create polls on the
> Nova Roma mailing list.
> Congratulations......."mommy" has had to remove yet
> another 'toy' from the
> reach of those too immature to handle themselves
> properly.
>
> For those of you who may wish to create a poll,
> please contact me and,
> assuming it is legitimate, I will be MORE than happy
> to create it *for* you.
> Likewise, as I do not wish to leave any further
> loopholes open for the
> "children", effective as of about 8:30pm no one but
> moderators may upload
> files to the Nova Roma mailing list. Again, if
> anyone wishes to upload
> files, please contact me and, providing it is
> legitimate, I will be MORE
> than happy to arrange it for you.
>
> The ultimate effect of these restrictions? Those
> who wish to be nasty,
> rude, snotty or to simply cause disruption will be
> forced to do so under
> their own identity. No more hiding in the shadows
> and sniping from the
> false security of anonymity. What you say may be
> controversial, but at
> least the rest of us will have the courtesy of
> knowing with whom we
> interact. Those who have the courage of their
> convictions will likely
> continue to say their piece publicly and honestly.
> Those who skulked in the
> darkness will no longer be afforded an audience.
>
> Now, for those of you tempted to criticize these
> latest actions as impeding
> your freedom of speech, please remember that all
> "legitimate" posts, polls
> and files will still be available. By legitimate, I
> also o not mean ones I
> necessarily approve of or agree with. Accusations
> of some magical
> magistrate immunity aside, I would never censor
> simply to make my life
> easier. I tae these actions because those among
> us.......and make no
> mistake, these recent trolls and attempted anonymous
> posters are all known
> individuals, not random strangers.....have made it
> necessary.
>
> Perhaps once we have purged ourselves of those
> immature and cowardly enough
> not to stand in the light of day and speak out
> honestly as themselves I can
> drop these precautions. Until such time,
> unfortunately, I find that these
> restrictions are necessary.
>
> Vale,
> Priscilla Vedia Serena
> Curatrix Sermonis
>
>
>
>
>


=====
Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs Peregrinvs
(this is a post for which I accept all responsibility)
"The cosmos works by harmony of tensions, like the lyre and the bow."
"Time is a game played beautifully by children."
Heraclitus of Ephesus
HeraclitusFreehold@--------

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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Subject: RE: [novaroma] Musings of the List Mommy-Important Info
From: "JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 18:33:26 -0400
Salve,

I am not following you. What laws of NH or policies of Yahoo are in
question by moderation of the list? I am sure you would not have posted
unless you were concerned, but I am afraid I can do nothing to help you
unless I understand your point.

Please clarify.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonis

-----Original Message-----
From: Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs [mailto:iasonvs_serenvs@--------]
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 6:18 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Musings of the List Mommy-Important Info


Salve Vedia,

I have been away some time, so my post is belated. I
would definitely check the laws governing corporations
in NH as well as Yahoo's own policies before I
continued in this line. Please do not take this as a
threat. I happen to live in NH and am familiar with
the Secretary of State's Office's particular interest
in registered corporations. Small State, large
office.

Ias.
--- JusticeCMO <justicecmo@--------> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> I come before you quite troubled this evening,
> and...quite frankly.......not
> just a little irritated. You see, I expected some
> degree of friction on
> this List, and I certainly expected this to be a
> time consuming job, those
> things do not bother me. The recent demonstrations
> of cowardice and
> immaturity do, however. They bother me greatly and
> I resent that some of
> our current List members are wasting my time (and
> List space very
> occasionally) with such juvenile games.
>
> A bit of background may help to clarify things for
> those of you not privy to
> behind the scenes events. Back around mid-February
> I made the decision to
> moderate *all* new members of this List. I did so
> due to a spate of
> spammers and trolls posting what I call "hit and
> run" attacks. Such
> behavior, we can all agree, is inappropriate. I
> have had numerous occasions
> to be grateful for my decision, mostly due to
> commercial spammers in the
> intervening months.
>
> Now, however, we have a new form of idiocy taking
> place. List members are
> creating false names and subscribing to this list.
> Thanks to the
> moderation, I have been able to catch and
> delete/deal with all "hit and run"
> attacks they have attempted. Seems, despite the
> fact that the policy of
> moderation is clearly spelled out in the "welcome"
> text they each received
> when their fake names subscribed, they were unaware
> of the policy until
> their attempts at trouble-making were thwarted and
> they got verbally slapped
> down in private for their efforts.
>
> Which brings us to to today's abortive "poll".
> Seems our little trolls are
> getting clever and trying to find ways around
> me.....much like small willful
> will children do.......and they did, indeed, find
> such a way by creating the
> "poll". Well, never fear, I and my trusty scribes,
> are on the job and
> quickly shut down that loophole. Effective as of
> about 8:30pm this evening
> no one other than moderators may create polls on the
> Nova Roma mailing list.
> Congratulations......."mommy" has had to remove yet
> another 'toy' from the
> reach of those too immature to handle themselves
> properly.
>
> For those of you who may wish to create a poll,
> please contact me and,
> assuming it is legitimate, I will be MORE than happy
> to create it *for* you.
> Likewise, as I do not wish to leave any further
> loopholes open for the
> "children", effective as of about 8:30pm no one but
> moderators may upload
> files to the Nova Roma mailing list. Again, if
> anyone wishes to upload
> files, please contact me and, providing it is
> legitimate, I will be MORE
> than happy to arrange it for you.
>
> The ultimate effect of these restrictions? Those
> who wish to be nasty,
> rude, snotty or to simply cause disruption will be
> forced to do so under
> their own identity. No more hiding in the shadows
> and sniping from the
> false security of anonymity. What you say may be
> controversial, but at
> least the rest of us will have the courtesy of
> knowing with whom we
> interact. Those who have the courage of their
> convictions will likely
> continue to say their piece publicly and honestly.
> Those who skulked in the
> darkness will no longer be afforded an audience.
>
> Now, for those of you tempted to criticize these
> latest actions as impeding
> your freedom of speech, please remember that all
> "legitimate" posts, polls
> and files will still be available. By legitimate, I
> also o not mean ones I
> necessarily approve of or agree with. Accusations
> of some magical
> magistrate immunity aside, I would never censor
> simply to make my life
> easier. I tae these actions because those among
> us.......and make no
> mistake, these recent trolls and attempted anonymous
> posters are all known
> individuals, not random strangers.....have made it
> necessary.
>
> Perhaps once we have purged ourselves of those
> immature and cowardly enough
> not to stand in the light of day and speak out
> honestly as themselves I can
> drop these precautions. Until such time,
> unfortunately, I find that these
> restrictions are necessary.
>
> Vale,
> Priscilla Vedia Serena
> Curatrix Sermonis
>
>
>
>
>


=====
Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs Peregrinvs
(this is a post for which I accept all responsibility)
"The cosmos works by harmony of tensions, like the lyre and the bow."
"Time is a game played beautifully by children."
Heraclitus of Ephesus
HeraclitusFreehold@--------

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Resignation of the Governor of Gaul
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 15:34:43 -0700 (PDT)
Salvete omnes; et salve, Druse.

--- Lucius Sicinius Drusus <lsicinius@--------> wrote:

<<snipped>>

> As angry as I am, I would not even apply a new Lex against these
> citizens. The 9 days will have expired by the time we could pass a
> Lex, and to give them the punishment they deserve would be an ex post
> facto lex, and a grave injustice. Let them suffer the penalities
> under
> the Leges that existed at the time of thier actions.

This is true, gentlemen. Any new law can not be applied to those who
left before it was approved. The citizens that have just left us will
be FOREVER free of that charge. Only our actual laws will ever apply to
them (at least, until they return).

To do otherwise would mean to act against both Roman and Western law
and tradition.

>
> As for those who break thier oaths in the future, You have 9 days to
> reconsider your actions, then you should face far harsher penalities.

I have been thinking about this proposal, and I have some points to
express. Both in Ancient Rome and in our own time, this kind of
penalties are only applied to those who commited big crimes, like
corruption or funds embezzlement (yes, I can see Sulla smiling with
satisfaction ;-) ).

I think that the fact that they already broke their oaths once would be
taken into deep account by our cives should some of this gentlemen
return and present themselves as candidates. And should our cives not
remember, I am sure that several voices will rise to remind them.

I think we should leave to popular decision if someone who stepped down
from office should be elected. After all, we have some precedents on
this case, and I am not afraid to say that the right decision was made
then.

I understand that many of you might feel irritated, or deceived, or
both. However, these issues are still too close in time for all of us
to think clearly. I would like to see a moratory on this subject until
we all (me absolutely included) have somehow calmed down on this issue.
Maybe we should wait until the end of the "cooling off" period...




=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

__________________________________________________
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Subject: [novaroma] Re: Taxation what did you say?????
From: asseri@--------
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 18:40:43 EDT
In a message dated 5/28/01 12:04:57 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
domusludus@-------- writes:


> I am *trying* to give you alternative ways of paying. Will your next
> email be about how you don't have hands or stamps to mail a letter?
> You type your emails with your feet or nose and as you're tongue has
> just been amputated you cannot give the spit to affix the stamp to
> the envelope?
>
> I await your next excuse for not paying taxes.....
>

Excuse me is this supposed to be funny? ... It wasn't even close! Now this
is uncalled for. If you were in my home (and you are) and talked to someone
like that I would ask you to apologize or leave ... Now.

It is this type of thoughtless post that make Civies rethink being a part of
Nova Rome and I am as a Civie getting very tired of it. That post should
have been sent privately.
AS a person who have to deal with public every day I have some advice if
anyone cares.

1. If you can't be part of solution don't be a part of the problem
2. Reread you post twice before you send it if you feel angry. Once out loud.
3. Someday not replying is the noblest thing to do.
4. Always treat everyone the way you want to be treated. Especially so if you
don't understand the problem or issue.
5. Kinds / compassion is the one thing we can give each other and it will
never be wasted. ( misunderstood perhaps but by the Gods never a waste)

Prima Ancinna Drusila
the woman of many soapboxes


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Resignation
From: Kristoffer From <from@-------->
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 00:55:48 +0200
L. Cornelius Sulla Felix wrote:

> Senator...I believe they make it up. They try to create devisiveness where
> there really isn't any so they can try to create a faction and try to gain
> power. There is no law on Nova Roma's Tabularium that is discriminatory, at
> all! So, it is the conclusion that I have come up with....they make it
> up...they created the conflict between Europeans and Americans....the name
> change edict....the resignation edict....the concept of taxes...Instead of
> working toward solutions and trying to build Pax and Concordia they try to
> forment dissension and arguement.

Salve, Luci Corneli Sulla Felix.

I'm not quite sure I understand your statement. Could you
perhaps explain to me to whom you refer by "they" above, since
vastly different people have discussed the various issues.

And, are you saying that the discussions on taxation, and the
one on why so many Europeans have decided to leave us, as well
as the others mentioned in your posting, are intended solely
to "forment dissension and arguement"? That we, the citizens
taking part in them, are not interested in the issues
themselves, but only in establishing ourselves politically?

I can speak for noone but myself, but I promise you, censor,
that I have only expressed my opinions on those questions
that I feel important to me, in one way or another.

Also, as a minor point, that part about there not being
any discriminatory laws on the tabularium...if you look
hard enough, there's always discrimination...at least,
in someone's opinion...:)

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consiliarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS d- s:++> a-- C++>$ ULS++ P+ L++ E- W++(--) N
o-- K- w--- !O M-- V-- PS->$ PE- Y+ PGP- t+@ 5- X-
R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !x-
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------




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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Resignation
From: Kristoffer From <from@-------->
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 01:01:31 +0200
Salvete, omnes.

Sorry, my last post was supposed to be private...:P

I'm trying to get used to a new mail program, and it doesn't
always do exactly what I want it to do...

Valete,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consiliarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS d- s:++> a-- C++>$ ULS++ P+ L++ E- W++(--) N
o-- K- w--- !O M-- V-- PS->$ PE- Y+ PGP- t+@ 5- X-
R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !x-
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject: Re: [novaroma] Resignation
From: "L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 16:06:01 -0700
on 5/28/01 3:55 PM, Kristoffer From at from@-------- wrote:

> L. Cornelius Sulla Felix wrote:
>
>> Senator...I believe they make it up. They try to create devisiveness where
>> there really isn't any so they can try to create a faction and try to gain
>> power. There is no law on Nova Roma's Tabularium that is discriminatory, at
>> all! So, it is the conclusion that I have come up with....they make it
>> up...they created the conflict between Europeans and Americans....the name
>> change edict....the resignation edict....the concept of taxes...Instead of
>> working toward solutions and trying to build Pax and Concordia they try to
>> forment dissension and arguement.
>
> Salve, Luci Corneli Sulla Felix.
>
> I'm not quite sure I understand your statement. Could you
> perhaps explain to me to whom you refer by "they" above, since
> vastly different people have discussed the various issues.

They being the AD (Amici Dignitas) and those citizens who were vocal but
resigned.

> And, are you saying that the discussions on taxation, and the
> one on why so many Europeans have decided to leave us, as well
> as the others mentioned in your posting, are intended solely
> to "forment dissension and arguement"? That we, the citizens
> taking part in them, are not interested in the issues
> themselves, but only in establishing ourselves politically?

I did not say Solely. Please do not add words to my statement! That is the
one thing I resent, when people add to what I have stated.

> I can speak for noone but myself, but I promise you, censor,
> that I have only expressed my opinions on those questions
> that I feel important to me, in one way or another.

That is perfectly acceptable, Titus Octavius.

> Also, as a minor point, that part about there not being
> any discriminatory laws on the tabularium...if you look
> hard enough, there's always discrimination...at least,
> in someone's opinion...:)

I disagree..ANYONE can become a Consul, Anyone has the potential to be a
Pontiff of an Augur, Anyone has the potential to create a Sodalitas...and
anyone has the potential to become a Senator.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

> Vale,
>
> Titus Octavius Pius,
> Consiliarius Thules,
> Praeco Anarei Thules,
> Scriba to the Curator Araneum
>
> AKA Kristoffer From
>
> ---
>
> Si hoc signum legere potes,
> operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
> et fructuosis potiri potes.
>
> - Not-so-famous quotation
>
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version: 3.1
> GCS d- s:++> a-- C++>$ ULS++ P+ L++ E- W++(--) N
> o-- K- w--- !O M-- V-- PS->$ PE- Y+ PGP- t+@ 5- X-
> R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !x-
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




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Subject: Re: [novaroma] Resignation
From: Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 16:15:53 -0700 (PDT)
Frater, et al...

Draco, I am not a man who pleads...I will neither you,
nor will I compromise my dignity, with a maudlin and
public response to your resignation. Please, if you
watch this list still, contact my at
UlysseJace@--------

To those of you who would attack a young man in the
manner he as been attacked - shame. You cannot seek
to offer the reflection of your experiences to the
"young" whilst also seeking to silence their tongues.
Men mistake themselves, the young and the old. Do not
neglect that Draco participated. At times, he was
less than cordial - but less a very small majority
(mssrs. Sicinius, Salix Astur, et al) - none here can
cast a stone.

He wanted to be part of this experiment, he daily lent
his effort to that end. You did not offer him your
support, or the recognition of his participation,
despite your disagreement with the philosophical
underpinnings of his arguments.

Shame.


--- "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
wrote:
> Salvete, Citizens of New Rome,
>
>
> This will most likely be one of the last times that
> I'm addressing you. Today, I am resigning. By this
> action I give up my position as scriba to Aedilis
> Maior, as legatus and scriba to my propraetor
> Lutecio, as Lupercus Fabianus, and as Coryphaeus and
> Musaeus of two collegia in the Sodalitas Musarum. I
> will also terminate the philosophy list, the
> dignitas forum and the iuventas list, and turn over
> moderation of the Gallia lists to my frater
> Tiberius. It was a tough decision to make, but in
> the end I always came to the same conclusion: a
> place like Nova Roma, that is at many times so
> different from my own moral and philosophical
> standards, isn't right for me, and would only be a
> source of frustration for me, and a source of
> irritation for my inevitable opponents.
>
>
> Instead of hurling boulders at my opponents for the
> last time, I would instead like to commend those
> people whose company I highly appreciated and deeply
> respect as examples of Romanitas.
>
> -- Marcus Octavius Germanicus: despite the fact that
> we have always more or less been in "opposing
> camps", I respect your honesty, integrity and most
> of all your hard work for Nova Roma; plus, you are
> able to disconnect political tendencies from
> personalities.
>
> -- Iasonus Serenus Carolus: your philosophical
> wisdom and sense of concord, whilst maintaining your
> own strong viewpoints, never ceased to amaze me, and
> give me hope and inspiration.
>
> -- Titus Labienus Fortunatus: I highly enjoyed
> debating philosophical questions and issues with
> you, and many times I had to recognize my superior
> in you (a tough thing to do for someone with an
> inflated ego like me :-D); yet you always manage to
> come across modestly and moderated, an embodiment of
> the stoic spirit and the Roman virtues.
>
> -- Oppius Flaccus Severus: despite our bad relations
> at the end, I admire your natural virtue of
> industria, your ability to diplomatically retract
> from a debate when things get unproductive, and last
> but not least your tremendous engagement in Nova
> Roma.
>
> -- Pompeia Cornelia Strabo: wherever present, you've
> been kind of the unofficial list moderator at its
> best: a person everyone listens to with respect, and
> has the good sense of retaining calm when it is
> needed the most.
>
> -- the Amici Dignitatis: even though we had our own
> conflicts and quarrels, we've always been sort of
> warbuddies with a common goal, and were always
> pushed back in the same trenches; had we met in
> different circumstances, we might not have become
> "amici" ;-).
>
> -- gens Apollonia: I've never been an avid fan of
> family roleplaying, but I must say that my gens has
> always been some sort of refuge for me, and I will
> miss it.
>
> -- and countless others who are shining examples of
> Romanitas: Gnaeus Salix Astur, Titus Octavius Pius,
> Gaius Marcius Coriolanus, Alexander I.C. Probus
> Macedonius, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, Manius
> Villius Limitanus, Marcus Arminius Maior, Lucius
> Tiberius Sardonicus, Adrianus Arius Acadianus Draco,
> Domna Claudia Auspicata, Appius Tullius Marcellus
> Cato, Michael the Erronous, Gaius Bruttius Sentius
> Sura, Lucilla Cornelia Cinna, Marcus Cornelius
> Scipio, Lucius Pompeius Octavianus, Lucius Sergius
> Australicus Obstinatus, Lucius Sicinius Drusus,
> Patricia Cassia, Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator, and
> many others I'll have surely forgotten.
>
>
>
> For the people above, I'm truly sorry to leave, and
> I offer them my apologies, with hopes of remaining
> in contact with them. As for the rest of Nova Roma:
> fare well. I hope you'll accomplish your goals,
> whatever those may be.
>
>
>
> Valete bene,
> Sextus Apollonius Draco
>
> aka
>
> Jeroen Meuleman
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


=====
Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs Peregrinvs
(this is a post for which I accept all responsibility)
"The cosmos works by harmony of tensions, like the lyre and the bow."
"Time is a game played beautifully by children."
Heraclitus of Ephesus
HeraclitusFreehold@--------

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Subject: RE: [novaroma] One More Resignation
From: Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 09:20:49 +1000
Ave Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion

This matter had been discussed on numerous occasions prior to the vote - the
fact that some citizens wish to continue the discussion or better yet -
make grandiose resignations - is distracting us from moving on to bigger
things - yes I do believe the Republic is now more suited fro growth as it
now has the infrastructure to gain income...but some us cannot understand
that - are you one of these...

Perhaps I am short sighted but we all most live in the real world.

Stupid sarcasm by the way never does sit well with me - could you have come
up with something better than the dribble that you just posted...

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: Kanat Elibol [mailto:kelibol@--------]
Sent: Monday, 28 May 2001 11:58 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: RE: [novaroma] One More Resignation




Salve frater....
I'm glad for you that you've such a 'simple and quick'
sollutions for every matter...this
will surely give you some peace of mind and a good place in the res
publica....
I just wish that I and some other cives could've such a fine
short sight about the
future of the NR...!
Vale bene....
Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
>Oh for the sake of the Gods let it rest - what is done is done - accept the
>simple fact that the law has been passed and the Citizens have spoken !!!
>
>Marcus Sentius Claudius
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




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Subject: [novaroma] Re: Taxation what did you say?????
From: domusludus@--------
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 23:46:20 -0000
--- In novaroma@--------, asseri@a... wrote:
>
> Excuse me is this supposed to be funny? ... It wasn't even close!
Now this
> is uncalled for. If you were in my home (and you are) and talked to
someone
> like that I would ask you to apologize or leave ... Now.
>


So sorry. Did you get upset before or after I offered to pay taxes
for someone who sounded like they couldn't afford to pay them
themselves?

If Titus Octavius Pius wants me to appologise, I will as it was *he*
I was talking to, not you.

Atia (back to keeping promises to Pater <G>)




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Subject: [novaroma] Possible Source of Income?
From: Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 19:46:14 -0400
Recently I designed a historically accurate Roman board game called
Latrunculi. Latrunculi is thought to be the origin of modern chess. These
games cost nothing to make. Therefor could we sell them and get a 100%
return.

In a book called Onomasticon by the Greek writer Pollux, he describes
Latrunculi as follows:

"The game played with many pieces is a board with spaces disposed among
lines: the board is called the 'city' and each piece is called a 'dog'; the
pieces are of two colours, and the art of the game consists in taking a
piece of one colour by enclosing it between two of the other colour."

The board is made out of pine wood that is carved with lines to form a grid
that is 8x8. The pieces are made of stone witch is painted blue and white.

All in all, I can get all the materiels for free, and it only takes little
time to make. Could we possibly sell these for maybe around $10 or $20 and
donate all income to Nova Roma?


Hinc est mei oratio!

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Civis Canada Orientalis
Canada Orientalis Website Scribae
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien






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Subject: RE: [novaroma] Possible Source of Income?
From: Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 09:49:39 +1000
This is a great idea of expanding the range of merchandise that Nova can
sell

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: Amulius Claudius Petrus [mailto:pkkt@--------]
Sent: Tuesday, 29 May 2001 9:46 Am
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Possible Source of Income?


Recently I designed a historically accurate Roman board game called
Latrunculi. Latrunculi is thought to be the origin of modern chess. These
games cost nothing to make. Therefor could we sell them and get a 100%
return.

In a book called Onomasticon by the Greek writer Pollux, he describes
Latrunculi as follows:

"The game played with many pieces is a board with spaces disposed among
lines: the board is called the 'city' and each piece is called a 'dog'; the
pieces are of two colours, and the art of the game consists in taking a
piece of one colour by enclosing it between two of the other colour."

The board is made out of pine wood that is carved with lines to form a grid
that is 8x8. The pieces are made of stone witch is painted blue and white.

All in all, I can get all the materiels for free, and it only takes little
time to make. Could we possibly sell these for maybe around $10 or $20 and
donate all income to Nova Roma?


Hinc est mei oratio!

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Civis Canada Orientalis
Canada Orientalis Website Scribae
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien






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This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
**********************************************************************



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