Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Excessive Response and selling out
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Wed, 30 May 2001 20:33:11 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Oppi Flacce,

I am dismayed to see how you have responded to a reasonable post from
our most dignified and respectable magistrate, Proconsul Marcus
Minucius Audens. It's to be expected that you would come to the
defense of your patron (whether or not he asked you to), but the
intensity of your rebuttal was grossly disproportionate to the
calm and reasonable tone of Audens' original post.

It pains me to say that; I like and respect you. But I also
like and respect Proconsul Audens, and I cannot let him be abused.

> I will not respond to all the points in your post, as with
> those posts by Formosanus; they are too full of extreme
> rhetoric.

I have read it three times now and find nothing "extreme" in it.
Is any criticism of your patron now to be considered automatically
"extreme"?

> It is extremely unfortunate that you have decided to descend
> to the tactics of Draco and Formosanus and I am sure, will
> gladly welcome you as 'amice.'

Rubbish. Audens' message was nothing like those of Formosanus at
all. There were some strong words, yes, but there were no accusations
of Nazism, oligarchical conspiracies, or any of that nonsense.
Audens is not trying to impose his morals on us, he is just asking
the Censor to keep his public image and the dignity of his office
in mind.

> OFS: Certainly forthright in this post, honest no.

It looked extremely honest to me, perhaps even "brutally honest". If
you're trying to cast aspersions on Audens' honesty, you'll have to
provide something to support it.

> You also break trust of those that communicate
> privately with you as indicated in your response. This is not
> honesty.

Where has the content of a private conversation been revealed? He
revealed only that they had spoken, there were no specifics.

> He is *always*
> the one to pay for it while you and the other shadow
> magistrates you mention sit in the background. Yeah,
> let someone else take the heat. A nice strategy to be
> sure and great work when you can get it.

More absurdities. Sulla receives the brunt of the attacks from Formosanus
and his ilk because of his confrontational style. Audens, myself, and
other Senators and magistrates are certainly not trying to "sit in the
background", as a quick perusal of the main list will certainly reveal.
We've spent considerable time and energy - as you have - defending Sulla
and his policies, such as the two recent lexes.

> I thought I 'knew' what you were about -but I see now
> that I was horribly wrong. The rest of Nova Roma will
> now see this as well. -For that, I thank you.

This is just a pointless insult. Audens has done nothing that is
wrong or out of character.

> OFS: Most of those that have left were part of a 'faction'
> that also accused *you* among others of Oligarchy and all
> sorts of nasty things that made you and others upset.

The most extreme element of that faction used words like "oligarchy"
and "bigot". But there were also among those who left valued
contributors, persons who were sane and moral, who are missed by
many of us.

> I don't for one moment believe that certain individuals ever
> *intended* to leave.

You're free to believe anything you like, of course. Those of us
who privately contacted these individuals know better.

> A quick test of public opinion. I see from your
> other posts that you are now part of that group.

There was a group of people who strongly objected to certain laws
and the magistrates who proposed them, on moral grounds.

Senator Audens has done nothing whatsoever to indicate support for
that group or sympathy for their position. Read his post again;
nowhere will you find evidence for this, because there is none.

He has done nothing more than chastise Sulla for his confrontational
and argumentative writing style.

Yet somehow, by some leap of logic that the rest of us cannot fathom,
you equate a chastisement of your patron with allegiance to a now-dead
political party that has been unfriendly to Senator Audens in the past.

Are you also going to now consider me part of that group, in spite of
the well-known enmity between myself and Formosanus?

> One of the marks of a good politician is to, "Shut Up and
> Listen." I certainly wish you could learn that simple lesson.

> OFS: Yes, it sounds like quite astute advice doesn't it Audens?

Indeed it does, and I hope you'll take that advice, and judge Audens'
words on their merits and on distinguished record of service, rather than
the affiliation with an exiled political party that you imagine he has.

> Since you have taken this public (which you very well should have
> kept private like a good, respectful person...)

First, he advised Senator Sulla privately that he should keep the
dignity of his office in mind whilst composing his messages.

Next, he spoke of this issue in the Senate House, to little effect.

Only after months of fruitless private conversation did he
finally resort to this public admonishment.

> who are *all these magistrates*? Do they share your
> propensity for breaking trust? It is doubtful good sir.

Again you make unwarranted accusations. Whose trust has he broken?
Did anyone who spoke to Senator Audens about Sulla's "knee jerk
responses" ask him to remain silent and pretend the conversation never
occurred?

You have no cause to accuse him of breaking trust. If he did break trust,
then let those whom he has supposedly injured speak for themselves.

> Audens:
> Now I am sure that your "pen" is poisd to refute my comments, but I ask
> that you hold that pen for at least two days---reflect on my words---ask
> at least three people with whom we both work in government to be
> brutally frank with you about the content of this post.

Exceptionally good advice there.

> OFS: Actually, I care less than nothing *what* you're interested
> in. This is not the way it works -one doesn't get to stand on the
> Rostra; attempt to shred the personage and character of another, then get to
> run away and say "I'm not going to listen to you until I decide to."
> Nope, sorry. You want to defame on the Rostra; you're playing in
> the big time. This response is for the public consumption -if you
> choose to stay away for a few days, that's your perogative.

As we've seen today, he hasn't run anywhere. But Senator Audens has
indicated that he has no desire to hear the same old protests and
excuses that he has heard from Sulla before, privately and in the Senate.
He has challenged Sulla to better himself by asking his friends for
an honest appraisal. Perhaps after he does that, there can be progress
in this matter.

> OFS: It is now you who is being endured, along with your
> obstructionist ideals.

"obstructionist"? Just what has he obstructed?

Perhaps you think he's involved in some sort of "black helicopter" plot
to overthrow the state, but anyone who has worked with him knows this
is absurd. Audens is as dedicated to Nova Roma as anyone, and there is
nothing "obstructionist" about him publicly asking a fellow magistrate
to act with dignity and restraint.

> OFS: Personal information. Not something that should have been
> made public. How would you like it if everyone revealed the contents
> of your phone calls?

He revealed only the general subject matter of the calls. There were
no specifics, no personal information.

> We are not 'seeking' your counsel sir. We do not need you to be
> our self-appointed wise and cantankerous 'experienced' citizen.

Who is this "we" you speak of? I, for one, welcome the wise counsel
of Senator Audens, and always consider his words to be sound advice.

> OFS: I was just about to suggest something along those lines.
> Perhaps you need a little more 'TV' and a little less 'Web' in your
> 'WebTV.' It might help ease some of your issues.

What is this, a slur on his technical abilities?

> OFS: Well said Senator! Something that perhaps *all* our
> magistrates should remember no?

Indeed. Censors, Consulars and Quaestors alike should be considerate
and thoughtful in everything they write, and refrain from unfounded
attacks and wild conspiracy theories, lest they tarnish the dignity
of their offices.

Vale, M. Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator




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Subject:	[novaroma] Main Site Translation Project
From:	"Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 14:43:50 +1200

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Salvete Quirites!

The translation of the Nova Roman main site into Latin is still
continuing, just when you thought you had nothing to do! ;-)

So I call again for more volunteers to whip out their dictionaries,
grammar books and translation sites and contact me regarding which
site pages have not yet been translated. If you are a new citizen
with a little Latin and want to find a way to help out in Nova Roma,
here you go! Please do not worry if you feel like your Latin leaves
a lot to be desired, go at your own pace, feel free to ask questions
at the Latinitas list or email me privately and everything will be
checked at the end anyhow! Work by yourself or in pairs if it
easier; we will also be interested in anyone who wants to help check
over translations.

It will be a wonderful achievement to finally have the entire Nova
Roma site available in the language of our ancestors!

Valete bene
Domna Claudia Auspicata
Scriba, Redactor - Sodalitas Latinias
comptess@--------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>

iQA/AwUBOxWv3oq7vhC1EO9bEQIiBACeNfgzkCviIDSdCFFUgDlxzbo8q/wAoMdk
0B6HZ/S1x1g8ebaV4GW96gWm
=R1cq
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Subject:	[novaroma] Resignations & Oaths (was Ex domo Propraetoris Galliae)
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 04:01:32 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@v...> wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> I too endorse Ianus Querius Amoricus Lutecio to continue/resume his
post as
> Propaetor Galliae.
> We are all learing from our experiences in Nova Roma. Let us not
only learn
> from our own mistakes, triumphs, etc. but be instructed by the
examples of
> others, good and bad.
>
> One small consideration on the matter of resignations. Perhaps we
ought to
> consider how the Romans would have viewed resignations, rather than
what we
> as modern Americans, Europeans, etc. think of them. We are after all
suppose
> to be emulating the *best* of the Romans.
>
> Valete, Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus
>

Salvete,

This is an excellent Idea. However we are really looking at two
conected problems. How the Romans Viewed Oaths, in addition to how
they view resignations.

Oaths were binding agreements with the Gods, Yet in the Imperial
period Consuls regularly resigned. The Office was little more than a
figurehead filled by someone Caesar wished to Honor, and sometimes by
Caesar himself. It wasn't unusual for someone to resign after 3 months
so another Imperial favorite could be Consul. This leads me to beleave
that Oaths were NOT invoked during this period, or at least they only
covered a limited time frame.

During the Republican era resignations were allmost unknown. I recall
that the early dictators often resigned thier office before the end of
the 6 month period, but that's not one of the normal offices. Scarus
resigned as Censor when his collugue died, but again If I remenber
correctly that was because the Lustrum was held to have ended at the
death of the other Censor. I really can't recall any other cases.

I do know that magistrates swore an oath at the END of thier office
that they had faithfuly fullfiled the office. Ciecro was vetoed from
making the speach that went with this oath, and I have no reason to
think this was a recent inovation.

So I would like to know if the Oath that our magistrates swear is
based on a historical example, or is it a modern inovation?

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Ex domo Propraetoris Galliae
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 08:18:02 +0100 (BST)

Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix omnibus civibus SPD

As a proud citizen of Gallia, I also support Ianus
Querius Armoricus Lutecio to be re-appointed by the
senate in his position of Propraetor Galliae!

Valete
Cicatrix


--- "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
wrote: > Salvete Quaestor Audens Lutecioque,
>
> I would like to second this suggestion. Even though
> I initiated the
> formation of Gallia, I was unable to become its
> propraetor, and thus Lutecio
> became the governor; a job he did pretty well.
> Whilst Gallia was not blessed
> with an active citizenry or citizens who had a lot
> of time, we were able to
> accomplish some things, plus, even though I was his
> Legatus, I was never
> treated in an authoritarian manner because I stood
> one rung lower. So, I
> would also like to ask the Senate to re-appoint
> Ianus Querius Armoricus
> Lutecio as the governor of Gallia.
>
> Valete bene,
> Draco
>
> "Jeder für sich, und Gott gegen allen."
>
>


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Subject:	[novaroma] Artillery
From:	"Gaius Marcius Coriolanus" <coriolanus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 07:26:41 -0000

Quirites

I have asked it citizens on Sodalitas Militarium and I was redirected
here.

Are there any comprehensive and punctual plans to make balista,
scorpio, onager or other ancient artillery machines on the net? Of
course, there are some offers for $50 but that seems to be prety much
for something that I can not see before I buy it.
Could you help me? I want to make one in my own workshop.
I've got troublesome neighbours :-)

Vale.

Gaius Marcius Coriolanus




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Bonum Natale, Draco
From:	"Gaius Marcius Coriolanus" <coriolanus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 07:30:05 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Nick R. Ramos Jr." <nramos@s...> wrote:
> Salve, Mi Draco!
> ET BONUM NATALE, AMICI MEI!
> (Yeah, I know my Latin is terrible, but Happy Birthday anyways)
>
> Marius Cornelius Scipio

I would like to join.
BONUM ET FELIX ET FAUSTUM MAXIMUM

Gaius Marcius Coriolanus




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Your Disappointment
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 13:34:46 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, jmath669642reng@w... wrote:
> Masters Drusus and Laenus;
>
> I am very sorry that you are disappointed in my post. I have
recieved
> privately the number of posts approving my comments two to one to
those
> disapproving and who are congratulating me on the original
document. It
> was not an easy on to write and it was a long time coming. Several
> people have already indicated that this was not the first time I
have
> spoken to Censor Sulla about his activities, to thier kowledge, nor
am I
> the only one. I cannot be assured of Censor Sulla's genuine
surprise,
> since I have checked him on the Senate floor twice in the past few
> weeks.
>
> I am sure that Censor Sulla is your friend, but this is not about
> friendship and never has been. Perhaps you will understand that and
> perhaps not, but it really does not effect the equation.
>
> I thank you for your posts and your concerns, I have always
carefully
> considered the concerns of those who have contacted me, and there is
> much in your posts to consider. You have my assurance that I will
> consider that content carefully.
>
> In my post to Formosanus, I mentoned that he was assuming the post
of
> conscience for NR but that I supposed that might be necessary. I
do not
> assume such a stature here, but rather make suggestions to an
individual
> to modify an attitude and activities disgreed with by many here in
Nova
> Roma, and I did so publicly because my other private attempts over
the
> last weeks and months have had apparently little or no effect.
>
> I am a Senator, and I know that means different things to different
> people and it will mean something different to the same man or
woman if
> they are not wearing the Senatorial Stripe and later when they are.
> What matters is what it means to me, and I felt that what I said
had to
> be said publicly. I have done so and my conscience is now clear as
> opposed to before.
>
> I do not expect your understanding, as you have not yet come to this
> point. When you do there will be no one to assist you and you too
will
> decide. There will be controversy and bitterness and what you
decide
> will be yours to deal with, as this situation is mine. I wish you
less
> pain than this decision has cost me.
>
> Respectfully;
> Marcus Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Salve Senator,

I shall try a second reply, and I apoligize if the post I made some
12 Hours ago also turns up. I have had posts vanish for hours on
Yahoo.

I did not enjoy making my post, but felt that I had to respond, not
to the content of your post, but to the public nature of your post.

Yes Sulla is my friend, but that friendship only played a small part
in my post. I was speaking up for following protocol even more than
for Sulla. As far as WHAT you said, that was accurate. Anyone who has
subscribed to this list longer than a week is aware of Sulla's style.
This is mainly caused by him being too defensive, and I'm afraid that
a public repremand will only make him more defensive.

More to the point, the Censor is aware of his shortcomming, and
wishes to improve, but old habits die hard. Are you willing to give
him the benifit of the doubt? To give him a friendly private chiding
when he lapses into old habits, rather a lecture before the mainlist
or his peers in the Senate? I think that will get better results.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus




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Subject:	[novaroma] Digest No 1445 Resignations & Oaths
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 10:32:36 -0400

Salvete iterum, Quirites
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 17
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 04:01:32 -0000
From: "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Subject: Resignations & Oaths (was Ex domo Propraetoris Galliae)

--- In novaroma@--------, "Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@v...> wrote:
> Salvete,
>
> I too endorse Ianus Querius Amoricus Lutecio to continue/resume his
post as Propaetor Galliae.

> One small consideration on the matter of resignations. Perhaps we
ought to consider how the Romans would have viewed resignations, rather than
what we as modern Americans, Europeans, etc. think of them. We are after all
suppose to be emulating the *best* of the Romans.
> Valete, Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus


Salvete,

This is an excellent Idea. However we are really looking at two
conected problems. How the Romans Viewed Oaths, in addition to how
they view resignations.

Oaths were binding agreements with the Gods, Yet in the Imperial
period Consuls regularly resigned...

L Equitius: I agree the an "oath" was a binding agreement with the Gods. As
for the "Imperial period", I'm no fan of that.

During the Republican era resignations were allmost unknown. I recall
that the early dictators often resigned thier office before the end of
the 6 month period, but that's not one of the normal offices. Scarus
resigned as Censor when his collugue died, but again If I remenber
correctly that was because the Lustrum was held to have ended at the
death of the other Censor. I really can't recall any other cases.

L Equitius: Since the "Republican era" is the focus of Nova Roma's
foundation I hope that we will try to emulate the ideal of resignations
being almost unknown. I hope that candidates for positions will view their
applointment/election with more "Gravitas", "Firmitas" and "Pietas" thereby
building "Auctoritas" et "Dignitas", not only for themselves but for the
offices they hold.

I do know that magistrates swore an oath at the END of thier office
that they had faithfuly fullfiled the office...

So I would like to know if the Oath that our magistrates swear is
based on a historical example, or is it a modern inovation?

Valete, L. Sicinius Drusus

L Equitius: I am fairly certian it is modern, especially since it has been
revised after the 'founding' of Nova Roma.

Vale, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus




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Subject:	[novaroma] Absentia
From:	"yquere@--------"<yquere@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 17:31:41 +0200

Salvete Quirites

I'll be off list for two days, having to leave Lutecia
(Paris) for visiting my family in Britany (Armorica).
I'll be back on sunday 3rd June so I won't be able to
answer your posts till then.
This is no resignation this time, nor voluntary silence.
I promise !


Bene Valete
I.Querius Armoricus Lutecio


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Absentia
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 15:57:13 -0000

Salve I. Querius:

Please enjoy a relaxing time and a good visit. See you when you get back :)

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia


>From: "yquere@--------"<yquere@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: [novaroma] Absentia
>Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 17:31:41 +0200
>
>Salvete Quirites
>
>I'll be off list for two days, having to leave Lutecia
>(Paris) for visiting my family in Britany (Armorica).
>I'll be back on sunday 3rd June so I won't be able to
>answer your posts till then.
>This is no resignation this time, nor voluntary silence.
>I promise !
>
>
>Bene Valete
>I.Querius Armoricus Lutecio
>
>
>--------------
>Profitez de l'offre spéciale Liberty Surf !
>50 h / 95 F TTC par mois tout compris pendant 3 mois
>http://register.libertysurf.fr/subscribe_fr/signup.php3
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Links
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 15:58:09 -0000

Salvete Omnes,

Many of you may have seen this site, but I am posting it because it
has links to cooking, ceramics, religion, games, etc. that I don't
often see.

http://www.zephryus.demon.co.uk/education/links/hstro.html

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Links
From:	oppiusflaccus@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 16:35:07 -0000

Salve Gai Popilli!

Actually, I hadn't seen that one before but is has
some excellent information in it. Gratias multas
for the submission!

Bene vale,
Oppius

--- In novaroma@--------, ksterne@b... wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
>
<snipped>




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Subject:	[novaroma] Excessive Response -Brief Response to Octavius
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 09:52:20 -0700

Salve Marce Octavi,

I debated on responding to this and ultimately
decided on a very brief reply. Who has the last
word on this is up to you; as for me I'm bowing
out after this post. I think we're too far from
a basic agreement on the issues herein to gain
further from additional discussion.

To summarize my final thoughts on the matter:

1-We simply have a differing idea of what constitutes
'reasonableness' in a post. There seems to be a
tendency for some to say that everything emanating
from Sulla is non-reasonable, everything emanating from
Audens and others is somehow 'more' reasonable. That being
said though, like everything 899 citizens, 899 different...
well, you know the rest.

2-Personally, I have no problem with anyone calling anyone
else what they will; if it stays at that. That as they
say, is "life in the big city." When it goes beyond that
into innuendo and immense verbosity (yes -I've been guilty
of this as well,) then it becomes decidedly different.

3-No one, least of all either Sulla or myself will ever accuse
him -or anyone else for that matter of 'posting perfection.'
Sulla will admit that, I'll admit that about him and myself -
but Audens went way, WAY beyond discussing that particular
point as the summation of his arguments. The point of my post-
no more, no less.

4-No, I don't think in any Senator Audens is involved in any
'cloak and dagger' scheme, nor do I think that he has it
out excessively for Sulla. In fact, if it had just been a
matter of saying "your posts suck sir, they piss me off sir,"
"you sir post like an undiplomatic oaf or like an Italian
hayseed with no Greek," and left it there -well, so much
the merrier. Innuendo and lightly glossed accusations of
wrongdoing are different.

5-The comment about WebTV had nothing to do with any issue
of technical acumen. It was a remark about 'cooling off' with
some more TV and less web. -Apologies for any misinterpretation.

6-No, I don't accuse Senator Audens of any "AD" involvement
or 'switching sides.' -The comments center upon the tactics
used. Period. We won't agree; which is fine.

Beyond that, my original post stands. Please excuse me if
I don't debate it further but of course this doesn't mean
that I *in any way* am attempting to stifle anyone else's
desire for further discussion. So feel free to debate away.

Bene vale,
Oppius

-----Original Message-----
From: oppiusflaccus@-------- [mailto:oppiusflaccus@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 7:43 PM
To: oppiusflaccus@--------
Subject: Fwd: Re: [novaroma] Excessive Response and selling out


--- In novaroma@--------, Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@c...> wrote:
Salve Oppi Flacce,

I am dismayed to see how you have responded to a reasonable post from
our most dignified and respectable magistrate, Proconsul Marcus
Minucius Audens. It's to be expected that you would come to the
defense of your patron (whether or not he asked you to), but the
intensity of your rebuttal was grossly disproportionate to the
calm and reasonable tone of Audens' original post.

<snipped>



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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Tapestries...
From:	oppiusflaccus@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 17:01:37 -0000

Salvete Tarquinia et Omnes;

There have been so many good ideas regarding tapestries
and mosaics. If I had any artistic talent whatsover
and could do one or two myself, my personal choices
would be:

1-Neptunus -riding His golden chariot over the sea.
Have always had this picture in my mind based on
readings that I've done and it would be an inspirational
project.

2-"The Fall of Carthage" This is a picture/painting I
saw in a book somewhere. I believe it was renaissance-
era, but can't be sure beyond that. The imagery was
quite pronounced and emotive and always seemed to me
a striking theme in so many ways.

Anyways, my 2 denarii. Gratias for introducing such
an interesting topic!

Bene valete in Pace Deorum,
Oppius

--- In novaroma@--------, labienus@t... wrote:
> Salvete Tarquinia omnesque
<snipped>
It seems fairly simple to me.  But, I thought I'd ask, what sort of
themes
> > would you suggest for a tapestry?  If you were going to weave a
tapestry,
> > what image would you weave?
>
<snipped>
> Anyway, if I were to weave a tapestry, I would choose some
mythological scene.
> There's an ancient mosaic of Paris trying to decide which Goddess
deserves the
> golden apple that's a favorite of mine, and that's probably what
I'd opt for.
>
> Valete
> T Labienus Fortunatus




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Links
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 17:06:57 -0000

Salve Gaius:

Thanks for sharing :)

Pompeia


>From: ksterne@--------
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: [novaroma] Links
>Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 15:58:09 -0000
>
>Salvete Omnes,
>
>Many of you may have seen this site, but I am posting it because it
>has links to cooking, ceramics, religion, games, etc. that I don't
>often see.
>
>http://www.zephryus.demon.co.uk/education/links/hstro.html
>
>Valete,
>Gaius Popillius Laenas
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Excessive Response -Brief Response to Octavius
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 12:11:51 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Oppi Flacce,

> I debated on responding to this and ultimately
> decided on a very brief reply.

I'll try to be even briefer...

> 1-We simply have a differing idea of what constitutes
> 'reasonableness' in a post.

This is true.

I think the fundamental cause of our disagreement is simply that
you and I each have personal loyalty to and admiration for a
different senior magistrate. Upon seeing a respected figure
attacked, we both rallied to their defense and attacked with
equal harshness.

I'm content to let it end here.

Vale, Octavius.


--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator




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Subject:	[novaroma] Excessive ?
From:	antoniuscorvusseptimius@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 02:18:13 -0000

Salvete,

Let us not forget from which this most beautiful of cultures
(biasied opinion) was founded on. Oratory was a great tool in Roma
antica (as it is today). Debates could have gone on for very long
periods of time. With both views being slammed agaisnt the other in a
passionate (sometimes too passionate) exchange. The wish for those to
extinguish this passion, is a wish to blur once again the basis of our
beliefs. Although we do aknowledge some restraint, such as keeping the
virtues intact. We also remind ourselves that life must be savored. And
every step along the way should be taken as if it were our last. If
someone wishes to defend their honor on this list, ITA EST!

Live Well, Antonius Corvus Septimius





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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: [Latinitas] Main Site Translation Project
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 18:21:49 +0200

Salvete!
<<Hash: SHA1>>

What is that hash all about, actually? :)

However, Domna, I was just about to say the same. This list has been quite inactive for some time. Time problems, and involvement in a ton of other projects, both NR- and non-NR-related, prevent me from cooperating further (were you able to do something with that "translated" Forum Romanum?)

I would suggest something else; if someone sees a Latin mistake often made on any lists, don't hesitate to correct it. It is pedantic and I know it, but at least, people not on Latinitas or ScholaLatina will be able to learn, too.

For example, people have a tendency of recent to confuse the plural of a nomen with the adjective derived from the gens name in combination with the word "gens".

e.g., the (nominative) plural of my name, Apollonius, is "Apollonii", whereas the same word, used as an adjective in combination with the female word "gens", becomes "Apollonia". Just wanted to clarify this.

Valete!
Draco


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Subject:	[novaroma] Dilbertus' handbook for magistrates
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 18:16:03 +0200

Salvete Quirites,

Most of you will probably know the cartoon Dilbert, about the daily abuses of a boss on his employers. A criticism on capitalism, incompetence and corruption as it is today, but even beyond that it is so funny because everyone of us will have experienced similar situations. In a similar fashion, some of these things could be adopted to NR. Magistrates, don't feel offended! If you do, it's because truth hurts.


DILBERTUS' HANDBOOK FOR MAGISTRATES
-----------------------------------------------------------

1. Introduction
------------------

This handbook is intended for magistrates who are frequently asking themselves the question: am I doing it the right way? If you're reading this, you probably aren't. You are probably still too humane, weak and compassionate to have what it takes to be a good magistrate. However, do not despair. This handbook will offer you some solutions to problems you have and will run into.


2. Becoming a magistrate
--------------------------------

a) elections
---------------

That is probably the easiest part of all. If you talk regulary in the Forum, and keep relatively silent during the elections, with a programme as limited as possible, relying on name recognition mainly, you will probably get elected. Two problems, however, may occur:
a.. another blockhead like you might decide to run for the elections, using similar tactics - in case you lose, become his friend, and try again for next elections
b.. a scandal will break out - of course you know it is not true, but the citizens don't know this - for a solution, see the troubleshooting section
Everything also depends on the office you are running for. Look at it like the scales of a balance. The lower the office, the easier you'll get elected, and the more respect you'll get. The more mediocre the office, the harder you get elected, and the less respect you'll get. The higher the officer, the easier you'll get elected, and the more ego you'll get (note: never use that term - instead, make use of the word "dignitas"). Your success will also depend on whether you've been a magistrate previously or not. Whether you've actually done anything in that office other than gathering century points for basically filling a spot with your presence doesn't really matter. Key point is that if you really want to be successful, you have to have some patience by doing your time in a low office first (note: never pick Rogator - you'll get a lot of respect if you run for this office, but you will not be envied).


b) making friends
----------------------

Beforehand, it is usually a good idea to make some friends. By the term friends, we of course do not mean the type of human beings you would entrust with your heart and soul, because you simply don't have a heart nor soul. That's a good thing. However, in order to make friends or allies, you must take a moderate position when you're starting out low. Since people love mediocrity, and a person they can identify themselves with (or, a role model), they will love you. You must be vague, and talk a lot about the virtues. That's as far as creating your popular support goes.

The most important thing, of course, is to have friends among the establishment. If you were admitted in Nova Roma in the first place, there must be at least a few power-mad men or women in command that are a bit like you. Frequently contact them and applaud their actions - even though most of their actions will simply consist of talking. Tell them you admire their efforts for Nova Roma. Tell them you think they are funny, and are interesting people. Even though they are interesting from a psychological perspective, they are usually single-minded and not funny at all. You could also ask to become their scriba. That's a good thing. It's a little office that links you to the person professionally, but where you're basically doing nothing anyway (note: becoming a Censor's scriba is a good thing, but ensure to have a lot of leaves of absence, or you might actually wind up doing some work). Endorse these people publically, but if they get too unpopular, keep quiet on the Forum.

A small addendum on gentes: the larger, the better. Preferrably be paterfamilias of it, and it you're not, become a prominent member of it. Gentiles, even if they do not like you, will probably be a base of support. Under any circumstance, don't become a gentilis of someone of your friends, but rather your enemies, if you must. In latter position, you can more easily tear down the dignity of your pater- or materfamilias.


3. Being a magistrate
---------------------------

a) oaths
-----------

Congratulations, you made it! The first action you must undertake is the oath of office. Cut and paste it from another oath, replace every reference to the other name with your own, and then send it off as fast as possible. Frequently return to the sacred oath if someone else breaks it by abandoning office is a good thing, even if you aren't upholding a word of that oath yourself. People will take you seriously with an oath, and will respect you even more because you stress the importance of them.

b) actions
-------------

The best type of magistrate you can be is one that has the power to publish edicta. Every three months, it's a good thing to post an edictum, written in bureaucratical language to make it seem important, that basically does not contain much (note: make sure that it does not harm yourself or your allies in any way). Edicta that actually have something to say should be much longer, and even more bureacratical. Use the erratic Latin you know (if someone criticizes you on your incorrect use of Latin, see troubleshooting).

Frequently add new titles to your name that seem impressive, and frequently step down from another office you're holding (note: make sure that office goes to one of your friends) to enlarge your dignitas, and uphold the image of the hard-working magistrate. If you actually happen to run into some work, have your colleague do it. If you don't have a colleague, or if you're colleague is like you, "threaten" to publish (simply by saying: "we'll have to legislate this properly") an edictum and talk about it in the Senate. Stall the really important decisions, and leave them in the hands of someone else (preferrably a scriba), while you must still get the glory. Say you are interested in religion and culture too, and become a listmember without contributing. Try to pick along a religious position if you can; they greatly enhance your image while you yourself are not required to do anything at all.

Talk some in the Forum. Depending on how high your position is, you will be able to afford yourself more pompous and statist viewpoints. In every speech you make, never forget to stress the importance of the state, and its seriousness. Nice but not required is to be vague (note: make it appear so that it is poetic), so that people will come to see you as a philosopher, too. This will earn you respect from the dummies, who will obviously make it to the next generation of magistrates, but you will also get some opposition. This is dealth with in next section.

c) troubleshooting
----------------------

Inevitably, you are probably going to get opposition. The higher your office, the more complaints you're probably going to get. Here's how to react to opposition:
a.. never let a chance pass on by to correct them, even if their mistake is futile (= look at how smart I am)
b.. if you are met with a small opposition, claim that it is simply ungrateful for the massive work you have done for all the people
c.. if you are met with a medium opposition, get yourself some henchmen - they are usually recognized by their frequent use of the extreme political arguments, their inability at empathy, and are royal pains in the podeces (kind of like you, but less smart) - and they will do much of the clean-up work for you
d.. if you are met with a heavy opposition, either simply shut up for a large time, or try to effectuate a counter-scandal (preferrably by the use of the aforementioned henchmen)
e.. if you know that what people say is true, say you feel attacked in your dignitas
f.. if your opposition is persistent, say they are a bad example of Romanitas (= saying you are a good example)
g.. if you get comments about the quality of your Latin, make the critics appear like pedantic people
h.. frequently complain about the mass of work you have to do
i.. talk beside the issue; instead do not mention names, but let the ones who you intend to feel hurt really feel what you mean (it takes some skill to do this: try to practice it first)
j.. if your opposition is persistent, even after being treated by above solution, there are three options left
a.. try to turn them into your allies (by promising them power, for example); if you they are on the verge of beating you, make sure they join you
b.. suggest an empty compromise, and then start backstabbing them (again, preferrably through the use of henchmen)
c.. politely suggesting them to leave Nova Roma, because they will never change anyway (neither will you, but that is of course out of the question)
Things you must, under any circumstance, not do:
a.. say what you really think of person x or y
b.. show your true political colours, even if you are a naked opportunist

4. Ensuring your future
-----------------------------

Since you cannot be a magistrate forever, you must recruit a next generation of people who think like you, and do the same things like you. Among your previously mentioned henchmen, some of these may be found. However, the ones you can best keep an eye on are those with a limited point of view, no real opinion other than that of the likes of you, and carry the seeds in them to act like you. You do not have to like these people, but they will support you. Support them. Endorse them. Make them scribae or clientes.

And Fortuna will smile upon you (on the other side of the mirror).




***---***

Valete bene,
Draco



"Jeder für sich, und Gott gegen allen."


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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: [Latinitas] Main Site Translation Project
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 17:45:36 -0000

Salve Sexte Apolloni,

I am a Austrorientalis hayseed with very little Latin. Please feel
free to correct me whenever necessary.

Vale,
Gaius Popillius Laenas




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Excessive Response
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 01:42:07 -0300

gcassiusnerva@-------- wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/30/01 1:36:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 3s@--------
> writes:
>
> > If you
> > have historical knowledge, you may think about what happened 60 years
> > ago in Germany and what happened over a far longer period of time in
> > the Soviet Union with people who disagreed on the official political
> > direction, as those who left us did.
> >
> >
>
> Sir, if you mean to somehow equate the voluntary departure of several AD
> associates and sympathizers with the involuntary relocation of millions on
> trains to Auschwitz and the Gulag, then maybe you have some rethinking to do.
>

Seems you don t know history.
In the beginning people like A. Einstein, F. Lang, M. Dietrich, L.
Trotsky
were driven in exile, only when all the mouth were shut could the rest
begin.

It is better to stop the snake while it is in his egg, later can be too
late
or at least extremely painfull
like 20th century history proved.

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus


>
> And I really, really do hope that was not what you meant.
>
> Nerva
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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Subject:	[novaroma] Greetings
From:	sheildkeltson@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 17:33:08 -0000

I'm new to this group,and want to thank you for starting it!I'm a
member of the SCA,who after a long time in a persona forced on me by
the lack knowledge i had,I have begone actually reading,and learning
that i am very intrested in Rome.
It it for re-vamping I come to you seeking wisdom.I'm tring to
document Roman scale mail.I have quite a few pictures of it I am now
looking for a source for documenting the constucion.Any help that you
could provide would be of help.
Thank you again for your time,
~Raven~




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Subject:	[novaroma] Resignation Reconsidered
From:	bvm3@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 08:01:18 -0000

M. Apollonius Formosanus Censoribus Novae Romae et Omnibus S.P.D.

I wish, with some trepidation and perhaps a little irritation, to take
advantage that that humane provision of Censor Sulla that we have nine
days to rescind a decision to resign, without penalty.

My primary motivation in so doing was a letter from Q. Fabius Maximus
in which he asked me to stay, even bringing himself to state that the
ancient Roman Republic was a "representative democracy". When one's
worst political enemy asks one to stay, one must take it seriously.
Even if he primarily wants me here to fight with, I think.

Besides, I couldn't let Consular Audens steal my mantle of Chief
Demagogue, now could I? ;-)

I wish to make it clear that I am not comfortable being a member of an
organisation with the present leges on name changes and resignation
and return. I do not intend to start a campaign against them
instantly, but I shall consider their amelioration to be a long-term
goal of my political activity, assuming that I shall be here for the
long term.

I also wish to make it public knowledge that I am indeed a founding
memeber of another of another Roman cultural organisation. This had
been made a point of controversy previously. I think, however, that it
is obvious that we all have a right to be a member of other
organisations related to Roman culture, and indeed to found them. That
to which I refer is not a micronation, and I see no conflict in doing
my job as a magistrate in Nova Roma and performing official duties in
another organisation. I am not trying to solicit for this organisation
on the NR list, so I shall not give particulars here. I mention it so
that it will be in the light of day and treated as the normal thing
that it is.

I intend to continue my negotiations with the Gens Cornelia through
their designated envoy. Negotiations were delayed because she was
moving house and her computer was down. I hope that we shall be in
touch sometime over the weekend. (I should be home by Sunday.) I might
note that Censor Sulla's summary of my position on him is highly
inaccurate.

I also intend to see what might be managed in terms of more
constructive contact with Q. Fabius Maximus.

I have observed some constructive signs on the List of late. I hope
they bear some fruit.

Valete!




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Resignations & Oaths (was Ex domo Propraetoris Galliae)
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 01:25:02 -0300

Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, "Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@v...> wrote:
> > Salvete,
> >
> > I too endorse Ianus Querius Amoricus Lutecio to continue/resume his
> post as
> > Propaetor Galliae.
> > We are all learing from our experiences in Nova Roma. Let us not
> only learn
> > from our own mistakes, triumphs, etc. but be instructed by the
> examples of
> > others, good and bad.
> >
> > One small consideration on the matter of resignations. Perhaps we
> ought to
> > consider how the Romans would have viewed resignations, rather than
> what we
> > as modern Americans, Europeans, etc. think of them. We are after all
> suppose
> > to be emulating the *best* of the Romans.
> >
> > Valete, Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus
> >
>
> Salvete,
>
> This is an excellent Idea. However we are really looking at two
> conected problems. How the Romans Viewed Oaths, in addition to how
> they view resignations.
>
> Oaths were binding agreements with the Gods, Yet in the Imperial
> period Consuls regularly resigned. The Office was little more than a
> figurehead filled by someone Caesar wished to Honor, and sometimes by
> Caesar himself. It wasn't unusual for someone to resign after 3 months
> so another Imperial favorite could be Consul. This leads me to beleave
> that Oaths were NOT invoked during this period, or at least they only
> covered a limited time frame.
>

Salve,

Under the empire a lot of consulares were needed because of the large
number of pro-conuls neede to govern the consular provinces. 2-3 monthes
became the usual
duration of consulship. When it was the emperor which took the eponym
consulship (the first of the year, the one by which the year was named)
it usualy was only for a few days. Oathes were invoked normally as far
as I know (at least for the eponyms)

> During the Republican era resignations were allmost unknown. I recall
> that the early dictators often resigned thier office before the end of
> the 6 month period, but that's not one of the normal offices.

Early dictators were nominated in order to do something, generally
holding the elections while both consuls were at war outside of town.
Others to fight a certain war, it was their duty to resign once the job
was done. Failure to resign at this point was highly suspect of aspiring
to become king.

> Scarus
> resigned as Censor when his collugue died, but again If I remenber
> correctly that was because the Lustrum was held to have ended at the
> death of the other Censor. I really can't recall any other cases.
>

A censor was required to retire after the dead of his collegue since it
was considered a bad omen.

For other cases: the first consul Tarquinus Collatinus resigned after a
dissension with his collegue Iunius Brutus.


> I do know that magistrates swore an oath at the END of thier office
> that they had faithfuly fullfiled the office. Ciecro was vetoed from
> making the speach that went with this oath, and I have no reason to
> think this was a recent inovation.
>
> So I would like to know if the Oath that our magistrates swear is
> based on a historical example, or is it a modern inovation?
>

A time based oath seems to be a modern inovation. As far as I know
romans
took the oath of doing their best for the commonwealth while in office
and that s it, no duration included.

Note that such an oath includes resigning when this becomes the best you
can do
for the commonwealth.

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus


> Valete,
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
>
>
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 19:15:46 -0000

Salve Marce Apolloni,

Welcome "back".

Vale,
Gaius Popillius Laenas




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: [Latinitas] Main Site Translation Project
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 21:12:57 +0200

Salve Gai Popilli,

>
> I am a Austrorientalis hayseed with very little Latin. Please feel
> free to correct me whenever necessary.
>

Well, at least you got the vocative figured out right! Good job :). Keep it
up.

Vale bene,
Draco




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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Resignation Reconsidered
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 15:27:05 -0400

Salve

Just to clarify...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: bvm3@-------- [mailto:bvm3@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 4:01 AM
>
> I see no conflict in doing
> my job as a magistrate in Nova Roma and performing official duties in
> another organisation.

You have no "job as a magistrate in Nova Roma". The nine day grace period
applies solely to Citizenship, not to any magistracies or other positions
you may resign. When you resigned your offices, that was it. You may, of
course, stand for election again, just like any other candidate.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 20:15:38 -0000

Salve Consul Germanicus,

> You have no "job as a magistrate in Nova Roma". The nine day grace
period
> applies solely to Citizenship, not to any magistracies or other
positions
> you may resign. When you resigned your offices, that was it. You
may, of
> course, stand for election again, just like any other candidate.

I disagree with this interpretation. Below the main paragraph, there
is another that says,

"If a currently serving magistrate submits and withdraws multiple
resignations of citizenship within the same calendar year, the
censores will have grounds, after a closed hearing at which the
magistrate will have opportunity to present reasoning for his/her
actions, to issue an edictum against the magistrate rendering him/her
ineligible to run for elected office for one year. Should the
magistrate believe that he/she has a case for appeal of such an
edictum, he/she can appeal to a Tribunus Plebis, Praetor or Consul
within 30 days of issuance of the edictum as follows--- "

Surely this means that if they withdraw their application within nine
days then they keep their magistracy. Otherwise, how could they
submit and withdraw multiple resignations as a magistrate?

Bene vale,
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 15:43:12 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Marce Scriboni,

> Surely this means that if they withdraw their application within nine
> days then they keep their magistracy. Otherwise, how could they
> submit and withdraw multiple resignations as a magistrate?

By running for office again after returning, and winning, then
resigning again.

There is precedent for requiring returnees to be reelected or reappointed
to their position - Pompeia Cornelia briefly resigned, thereby losing her
propraetorship, but was given it back by Consular edict. The Consuls and
Senate will also be considering the reappointment of the Propraetor of
Gallia soon.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 20:55:52 -0000

Salve Marce Apolloni,

I Welcome you back to active status as a Citizen and a Magistrate.

I was worried things might get boring around here, but I see that your
mere return is allready starting a contreversy. ;o)

And to the Senior Consul, for the good of Nova Roma I ask you to
reconsider your postion on Marcus Apollonius' Magistracy.

Vale
L. Sicinius Drusus




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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 17:05:53 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
[mailto:marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 4:16 PM
>
> Surely this means that if they withdraw their application within nine
> days then they keep their magistracy. Otherwise, how could they
> submit and withdraw multiple resignations as a magistrate?

By running again (or being appointed) for the position. For example, should
Formosanus decide to run for Plebeian Aedile again, and subsequently resign,
he would fall under the clause you quoted (not being able to run for office
for a year, etc.).

There is nothing in the law that states that the waiting period applies to
resigning magistracies; note that the passage you quoted specifically states
"If a currently serving magistrate submits and withdraws multiple
resignations of citizenship"; it does not speak to the resignation of
offices. They are two different things, and the law regarding the one cannot
be applied to the other. (Indeed, such a law would be illegal, as single
laws dealing with disparate topics are not allowed, and resignations of
Citizenship are quite different matters than resignation from office.)

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Absentia
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 14:13:51 -0700 (PDT)

Salve, I. Queri Armorice.

--- "yquere@--------" <yquere@--------> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites
>
> I'll be off list for two days, having to leave Lutecia
> (Paris) for visiting my family in Britany (Armorica).
> I'll be back on sunday 3rd June so I won't be able to
> answer your posts till then.
> This is no resignation this time, nor voluntary silence.
> I promise !
>
>
> Bene Valete
> I.Querius Armoricus Lutecio

Joyeux vacances!

Enjoy yourself.



=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 21:19:46 -0000

Salvete All,

I think there could be some confusion here. Here are the relevant
sections of the lex:

II. When a citizen resigns citizenship in Nova Roma, the resignation
will not take effect for nine days from the date of the censors being
notified, counting inclusively of the date of the notification. If,
during this nundina, the citizen desires to withdraw his or her
resignation and remain a citizen, that citizen may freely do so
without penalty, except as defined in the next paragraph.

III. If a currently serving magistrate submits and withdraws multiple
resignations of citizenship within the same calendar year, the
censores will have grounds, after a closed hearing at which the
magistrate will have opportunity to present reasoning for his/her
actions, to issue an edictum against the magistrate rendering him/her
ineligible to run for elected office for one year.

The lex says "without penalty" except in the event of multiple
resignations by a sitting magistrate. Provential governnors are
appointed by the Senate (I think this is right). Might they need
their appointment reaffirmed wheras elected magistrates need not?

With all respect.

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas





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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 17:35:36 -0400

Salve civis et amicus,

I think it is very, very, foolish to be able to resign then comeback to
there original position of power. I understand a waiting period for the
resignation of a citizenship though a position in government must be
different.

Why would you passably let a person who had second doubts return to power?
Only to see another annoying and passably harmful mix up to take place for
our nation. I must say if we let this happen then our government is
seriously flawed...

We all want a stable nation, this is going in the opposite direction. Its
sad to witness.

Hinc est mei oratio!

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Civis Canada Orientalis
Canada Orientalis Website Retarius
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien








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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	"Nick R. Ramos Jr." <nramos@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 21:41:26 -0000

Salve Gai Popilli!

>From the text of the Lex (no pun intended), it seem to me that indeed
M. Appollonius Formosanus is still one of our Plebeian Aediles. In
the
case of the Propraetorships, they are indeed appointed by the Senate,
and when the post is resigned it does require reconfirmation by that
august body.

Mi Formosane - welcome back. We may have divergent views, but you do
bring a lot to the table, and your Latin scholarship is impeccable.
Hey, I might even sign up for a course or two - if you promise not to
beat me up too much for being an oligarch :-) Seriously, Welcome back!

Marius Cornelius Scipio
Aedilis Curulis

--- In novaroma@--------, ksterne@b... wrote:
> Salvete All,
>
> I think there could be some confusion here. Here are the relevant
> sections of the lex:
>
> II. When a citizen resigns citizenship in Nova Roma, the
resignation
> will not take effect for nine days from the date of the censors
being
> notified, counting inclusively of the date of the notification. If,
> during this nundina, the citizen desires to withdraw his or her
> resignation and remain a citizen, that citizen may freely do so
> without penalty, except as defined in the next paragraph.
>
> III. If a currently serving magistrate submits and withdraws
multiple
> resignations of citizenship within the same calendar year, the
> censores will have grounds, after a closed hearing at which the
> magistrate will have opportunity to present reasoning for his/her
> actions, to issue an edictum against the magistrate rendering
him/her
> ineligible to run for elected office for one year.
>
> The lex says "without penalty" except in the event of multiple
> resignations by a sitting magistrate. Provential governnors are
> appointed by the Senate (I think this is right). Might they need
> their appointment reaffirmed wheras elected magistrates need not?
>
> With all respect.
>
> Valete,
> Gaius Popillius Laenas




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 21:45:17 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, ksterne@b... wrote:
> Salvete All,
>
> I think there could be some confusion here. Here are the relevant
> sections of the lex:
>
> II. When a citizen resigns citizenship in Nova Roma, the resignation
> will not take effect for nine days from the date of the censors being
> notified, counting inclusively of the date of the notification. If,
> during this nundina, the citizen desires to withdraw his or her
> resignation and remain a citizen, that citizen may freely do so
> without penalty, except as defined in the next paragraph.
>
> III. If a currently serving magistrate submits and withdraws multiple
> resignations of citizenship within the same calendar year, the
> censores will have grounds, after a closed hearing at which the
> magistrate will have opportunity to present reasoning for his/her
> actions, to issue an edictum against the magistrate rendering him/her
> ineligible to run for elected office for one year.
>
> The lex says "without penalty" except in the event of multiple
> resignations by a sitting magistrate. Provential governnors are
> appointed by the Senate (I think this is right). Might they need
> their appointment reaffirmed wheras elected magistrates need not?
>
> With all respect.
>
> Valete,
> Gaius Popillius Laenas

Salvete,

Gaius Popillius is correct.

The Propraetors are apointed by the Senate, and serve at the whim of
the Senate. It is entirely proper for the Senate to decide how the
Propraetors resignation should be handled.

The Plebian Aedile was elected by the Plebs, and if any penality is to
be applied towards his resignation that is up to the Comitia Plebis
Tributa, not the Senate.

As far as I'm concerned, until I hear otherwise from the Tribunes of
the Plebs, Marcus Apollonius IS the leagaly elected Plebian Aedile and
retains that office until the Plebs decide otherwise.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 16:48:27 -0500 (CDT)

Salve,

> Why would you passably let a person who had second doubts return to power?
> Only to see another annoying and passably harmful mix up to take place for
> our nation. I must say if we let this happen then our government is
> seriously flawed...

The only fair way to settle this is to let the voters decide. The Tribunes
put out a call for candidates a few days ago; the citizen who almost
departed can be a candidate, if he chooses to, as can any other
qualifying Plebeian citizen.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 16:58:03 -0500

Salvete Quirites

Out of my belief that the state should treat all cives equally, I feel
compelled to respond to Consul Vedius' interpretation of the resignation
edictum.

> There is nothing in the law that states that the waiting period
> applies to resigning magistracies;

There is also nothing stating that it does not. To date, we've had
plenty of propraetores resign their citizenship and return, but (IIRC)
only two members of the ordinarii.

The first case was L Cornelius Sulla, who resigned his citizenship in
Maius of last year. He subsequently reconsidered and was welcomed back
to Nova Roma. However, the consules of that year did not assemble the
centuries in order to replace him as censor. He did not have to stand
for election a second time. Instead, he was allowed to simply resume
his office.

Now, either the ordinarii may return to citizenship with their office
intact, or last year's consules violated section IV.A. of the
constitution and L Cornelius has been illegally performing the duties of
the censorate since last Maius. That's a long time for him to have had
access to information in violation of Lex Cornelia de Privatus Rebus, to
have been assigning cives to centuries and tribes, to have been
illegally entering people into the album civium, to have been allowing
those illegal cives to vote by illegally assigning them voter codes.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Ipsa scientia potestas est."
-Francis Bacon



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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 17:59:28 -0400

A. Claudius Wrote:

>> Why would you passably let a person who had second doubts return to power?
>> Only to see another annoying and passably harmful mix up to take place for
>> our nation. I must say if we let this happen then our government is
>> seriously flawed...

Marcus Octavius Germanicus wrote:

> The only fair way to settle this is to let the voters decide. The Tribunes
> put out a call for candidates a few days ago; the citizen who almost
> departed can be a candidate, if he chooses to, as can any other
> qualifying Plebeian citizen.


That seems very fair, and reasonable. The plebs should have the decision if
they really want the possibility of a person taking power who has second
doubts on the mission he is suppose to protect.


Hinc est mei oratio!

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Civis Canada Orientalis
Canada Orientalis Website Retarius
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 17:51:49 -0500

Salvete Consul Vedi Quiritesque

> "If a currently serving magistrate submits and withdraws multiple
> resignations of citizenship"; it does not speak to the resignation of
> offices. They are two different things, and the law regarding the one
> cannot be applied to the other. (Indeed, such a law would be illegal,
> as single laws dealing with disparate topics are not allowed, and
> resignations of Citizenship are quite different matters than
> resignation from office.)

Yes, it is a valid argument to say that a resignation of citizenship is
not the same thing as a resignation of magistracy. By this line of
reasoning, a magistrate who simply said, "I resign my citizenship,"
would still remain in office until either his reconsideration nundina
lapsed or he returned and served out the remainder of his term.
However, a magistrate who said, "I resign my citizenship and my
magistracy," would not have this luxury.

We MUST NOT choose to accept this argument! L Cornelius stated, in
message #13327 to the main list, "I hereby tender my resignation of the
office of Censor of Nova Roma." If we bar M Apollonius from office,
then we must also declare everything L Cornelius has done since Maius
2753 to be null and void. We must also hold M Minucius and Q Fabius
guilty of violating the constitution. This, I hope, is obviously
unacceptable.

As an aside, the reason that the Senate could choose to interpret that
provincial governors' resignations of office were immediate stems from
the fact that Senatusconsulta trump edicta. The decisions of the Senate
override magisterial edicta. Now that the edictum has become a lex, the
Senate does not have that luxury, since the decisions of the comitia
have higher precedence than those of the Senate.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Ipsa scientia potestas est."
-Francis Bacon



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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 23:02:56 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Fortunatus <labienus@t...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites
>
> Out of my belief that the state should treat all cives equally, I feel
> compelled to respond to Consul Vedius' interpretation of the resignation
> edictum.
>
> > There is nothing in the law that states that the waiting period
> > applies to resigning magistracies;
>
> There is also nothing stating that it does not. To date, we've had
> plenty of propraetores resign their citizenship and return, but (IIRC)
> only two members of the ordinarii.
>
> The first case was L Cornelius Sulla, who resigned his citizenship in
> Maius of last year. He subsequently reconsidered and was welcomed back
> to Nova Roma. However, the consules of that year did not assemble the
> centuries in order to replace him as censor. He did not have to stand
> for election a second time. Instead, he was allowed to simply resume
> his office.
>
> Now, either the ordinarii may return to citizenship with their office
> intact, or last year's consules violated section IV.A. of the
> constitution and L Cornelius has been illegally performing the duties of
> the censorate since last Maius. That's a long time for him to have had
> access to information in violation of Lex Cornelia de Privatus Rebus, to
> have been assigning cives to centuries and tribes, to have been
> illegally entering people into the album civium, to have been allowing
> those illegal cives to vote by illegally assigning them voter codes.
>
> Valete
> T Labienus Fortunatus
> --
> "Ipsa scientia potestas est."
> -Francis Bacon

Salvete,

Lets take this to the next step.
If all those Illegal citizens were voting, then wouldn't all the
elections since Maius also be illegal due to massive voter fraud?

So Perhaps Formosanus never was an Aedile due to an Illegal election.
Also ALL the other Magistrates would be in the same postion as
Formosanus, holding an office because of an illegal election.

We could ask the Praetors for thier advice, if we have any Praetors.
They were elected since the voter fraud problem started.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Dilbertus' handbook for magistrates
From:	"Robert Woolwine" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 18:56:14 -0000

Ave,

What can I say..I love this post...I am printing it out right
now...Thanks for posting it!

Respectfully,

Sulla

--- In novaroma@--------, "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@p...>
wrote:
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> Most of you will probably know the cartoon Dilbert, about the daily
abuses of a boss on his employers. A criticism on capitalism,
incompetence and corruption as it is today, but even beyond that it
is so funny because everyone of us will have experienced similar
situations. In a similar fashion, some of these things could be
adopted to NR. Magistrates, don't feel offended! If you do, it's
because truth hurts.
>
>
> DILBERTUS' HANDBOOK FOR MAGISTRATES
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> 1. Introduction
> ------------------
>
> This handbook is intended for magistrates who are frequently asking
themselves the question: am I doing it the right way? If you're
reading this, you probably aren't. You are probably still too humane,
weak and compassionate to have what it takes to be a good magistrate.
However, do not despair. This handbook will offer you some solutions
to problems you have and will run into.
>
>
> 2. Becoming a magistrate
> --------------------------------
>
> a) elections
> ---------------
>
> That is probably the easiest part of all. If you talk regulary in
the Forum, and keep relatively silent during the elections, with a
programme as limited as possible, relying on name recognition mainly,
you will probably get elected. Two problems, however, may occur:
> a.. another blockhead like you might decide to run for the
elections, using similar tactics - in case you lose, become his
friend, and try again for next elections
> b.. a scandal will break out - of course you know it is not
true, but the citizens don't know this - for a solution, see the
troubleshooting section
> Everything also depends on the office you are running for. Look at
it like the scales of a balance. The lower the office, the easier
you'll get elected, and the more respect you'll get. The more
mediocre the office, the harder you get elected, and the less respect
you'll get. The higher the officer, the easier you'll get elected,
and the more ego you'll get (note: never use that term - instead,
make use of the word "dignitas"). Your success will also depend on
whether you've been a magistrate previously or not. Whether you've
actually done anything in that office other than gathering century
points for basically filling a spot with your presence doesn't really
matter. Key point is that if you really want to be successful, you
have to have some patience by doing your time in a low office first
(note: never pick Rogator - you'll get a lot of respect if you run
for this office, but you will not be envied).
>
>
> b) making friends
> ----------------------
>
> Beforehand, it is usually a good idea to make some friends. By the
term friends, we of course do not mean the type of human beings you
would entrust with your heart and soul, because you simply don't have
a heart nor soul. That's a good thing. However, in order to make
friends or allies, you must take a moderate position when you're
starting out low. Since people love mediocrity, and a person they can
identify themselves with (or, a role model), they will love you. You
must be vague, and talk a lot about the virtues. That's as far as
creating your popular support goes.
>
> The most important thing, of course, is to have friends among the
establishment. If you were admitted in Nova Roma in the first place,
there must be at least a few power-mad men or women in command that
are a bit like you. Frequently contact them and applaud their
actions - even though most of their actions will simply consist of
talking. Tell them you admire their efforts for Nova Roma. Tell them
you think they are funny, and are interesting people. Even though
they are interesting from a psychological perspective, they are
usually single-minded and not funny at all. You could also ask to
become their scriba. That's a good thing. It's a little office that
links you to the person professionally, but where you're basically
doing nothing anyway (note: becoming a Censor's scriba is a good
thing, but ensure to have a lot of leaves of absence, or you might
actually wind up doing some work). Endorse these people publically,
but if they get too unpopular, keep quiet on the Forum.
>
> A small addendum on gentes: the larger, the better. Preferrably be
paterfamilias of it, and it you're not, become a prominent member of
it. Gentiles, even if they do not like you, will probably be a base
of support. Under any circumstance, don't become a gentilis of
someone of your friends, but rather your enemies, if you must. In
latter position, you can more easily tear down the dignity of your
pater- or materfamilias.
>
>
> 3. Being a magistrate
> ---------------------------
>
> a) oaths
> -----------
>
> Congratulations, you made it! The first action you must undertake
is the oath of office. Cut and paste it from another oath, replace
every reference to the other name with your own, and then send it off
as fast as possible. Frequently return to the sacred oath if someone
else breaks it by abandoning office is a good thing, even if you
aren't upholding a word of that oath yourself. People will take you
seriously with an oath, and will respect you even more because you
stress the importance of them.
>
> b) actions
> -------------
>
> The best type of magistrate you can be is one that has the power to
publish edicta. Every three months, it's a good thing to post an
edictum, written in bureaucratical language to make it seem
important, that basically does not contain much (note: make sure that
it does not harm yourself or your allies in any way). Edicta that
actually have something to say should be much longer, and even more
bureacratical. Use the erratic Latin you know (if someone criticizes
you on your incorrect use of Latin, see troubleshooting).
>
> Frequently add new titles to your name that seem impressive, and
frequently step down from another office you're holding (note: make
sure that office goes to one of your friends) to enlarge your
dignitas, and uphold the image of the hard-working magistrate. If you
actually happen to run into some work, have your colleague do it. If
you don't have a colleague, or if you're colleague is like
you, "threaten" to publish (simply by saying: "we'll have to
legislate this properly") an edictum and talk about it in the Senate.
Stall the really important decisions, and leave them in the hands of
someone else (preferrably a scriba), while you must still get the
glory. Say you are interested in religion and culture too, and become
a listmember without contributing. Try to pick along a religious
position if you can; they greatly enhance your image while you
yourself are not required to do anything at all.
>
> Talk some in the Forum. Depending on how high your position is, you
will be able to afford yourself more pompous and statist viewpoints.
In every speech you make, never forget to stress the importance of
the state, and its seriousness. Nice but not required is to be vague
(note: make it appear so that it is poetic), so that people will come
to see you as a philosopher, too. This will earn you respect from the
dummies, who will obviously make it to the next generation of
magistrates, but you will also get some opposition. This is dealth
with in next section.
>
> c) troubleshooting
> ----------------------
>
> Inevitably, you are probably going to get opposition. The higher
your office, the more complaints you're probably going to get. Here's
how to react to opposition:
> a.. never let a chance pass on by to correct them, even if
their mistake is futile (= look at how smart I am)
> b.. if you are met with a small opposition, claim that it is
simply ungrateful for the massive work you have done for all the
people
> c.. if you are met with a medium opposition, get yourself some
henchmen - they are usually recognized by their frequent use of the
extreme political arguments, their inability at empathy, and are
royal pains in the podeces (kind of like you, but less smart) - and
they will do much of the clean-up work for you
> d.. if you are met with a heavy opposition, either simply shut
up for a large time, or try to effectuate a counter-scandal
(preferrably by the use of the aforementioned henchmen)
> e.. if you know that what people say is true, say you feel
attacked in your dignitas
> f.. if your opposition is persistent, say they are a bad
example of Romanitas (= saying you are a good example)
> g.. if you get comments about the quality of your Latin, make
the critics appear like pedantic people
> h.. frequently complain about the mass of work you have to do
> i.. talk beside the issue; instead do not mention names, but
let the ones who you intend to feel hurt really feel what you mean
(it takes some skill to do this: try to practice it first)
> j.. if your opposition is persistent, even after being treated
by above solution, there are three options left
> a.. try to turn them into your allies (by promising them
power, for example); if you they are on the verge of beating you,
make sure they join you
> b.. suggest an empty compromise, and then start
backstabbing them (again, preferrably through the use of henchmen)
> c.. politely suggesting them to leave Nova Roma, because
they will never change anyway (neither will you, but that is of
course out of the question)
> Things you must, under any circumstance, not do:
> a.. say what you really think of person x or y
> b.. show your true political colours, even if you are a naked
opportunist
>
> 4. Ensuring your future
> -----------------------------
>
> Since you cannot be a magistrate forever, you must recruit a next
generation of people who think like you, and do the same things like
you. Among your previously mentioned henchmen, some of these may be
found. However, the ones you can best keep an eye on are those with a
limited point of view, no real opinion other than that of the likes
of you, and carry the seeds in them to act like you. You do not have
to like these people, but they will support you. Support them.
Endorse them. Make them scribae or clientes.
>
> And Fortuna will smile upon you (on the other side of the mirror).
>
>
>
>
> ***---***
>
> Valete bene,
> Draco
>
>
>
> "Jeder für sich, und Gott gegen allen."
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	"Robert Woolwine" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 19:12:53 -0000

Welcome back, M. Apollonius!


Sulla

--- In novaroma@--------, bvm3@-------- wrote:
> M. Apollonius Formosanus Censoribus Novae Romae et Omnibus S.P.D.
>
> I wish, with some trepidation and perhaps a little irritation, to
take
> advantage that that humane provision of Censor Sulla that we have
nine
> days to rescind a decision to resign, without penalty.
>
> My primary motivation in so doing was a letter from Q. Fabius
Maximus
> in which he asked me to stay, even bringing himself to state that
the
> ancient Roman Republic was a "representative democracy". When one's
> worst political enemy asks one to stay, one must take it seriously.
> Even if he primarily wants me here to fight with, I think.
>
> Besides, I couldn't let Consular Audens steal my mantle of Chief
> Demagogue, now could I? ;-)
>
> I wish to make it clear that I am not comfortable being a member of
an
> organisation with the present leges on name changes and resignation
> and return. I do not intend to start a campaign against them
> instantly, but I shall consider their amelioration to be a long-
term
> goal of my political activity, assuming that I shall be here for
the
> long term.
>
> I also wish to make it public knowledge that I am indeed a founding
> memeber of another of another Roman cultural organisation. This had
> been made a point of controversy previously. I think, however, that
it
> is obvious that we all have a right to be a member of other
> organisations related to Roman culture, and indeed to found them.
That
> to which I refer is not a micronation, and I see no conflict in
doing
> my job as a magistrate in Nova Roma and performing official duties
in
> another organisation. I am not trying to solicit for this
organisation
> on the NR list, so I shall not give particulars here. I mention it
so
> that it will be in the light of day and treated as the normal thing
> that it is.
>
> I intend to continue my negotiations with the Gens Cornelia through
> their designated envoy. Negotiations were delayed because she was
> moving house and her computer was down. I hope that we shall be in
> touch sometime over the weekend. (I should be home by Sunday.) I
might
> note that Censor Sulla's summary of my position on him is highly
> inaccurate.
>
> I also intend to see what might be managed in terms of more
> constructive contact with Q. Fabius Maximus.
>
> I have observed some constructive signs on the List of late. I hope
> they bear some fruit.
>
> Valete!




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Resignation Reconsidered
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Marcos=20Boehme?= <marminius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 16:25:51 -0300 (ART)

Salve

Congratulatiuns, and welcome back, colleague M
Formosanus!

Marcus Arminius Maior
Aedilis Plebis

> M. Apollonius Formosanus Censoribus Novae Romae et
> Omnibus S.P.D.
>
> I wish, with some trepidation and perhaps a little
> irritation, to take
> advantage that that humane provision of Censor Sulla
> that we have nine
> days to rescind a decision to resign, without
> penalty.



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