Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	"Marcus Cassius Julianus" <cassius622@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 00:27:41 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, bvm3@-------- wrote:
> M. Apollonius Formosanus Censoribus Novae Romae et Omnibus S.P.D.
>
> I wish, with some trepidation and perhaps a little irritation, to
take advantage that that humane provision of Censor Sulla that we
have nine days to rescind a decision to resign, without penalty.

Cassius:
Many folks were certain you'd not go through with it, Formosanus. I
only wish I'd thought to start a betting pool! ;)

> Formosanus
> My primary motivation in so doing was a letter from Q. Fabius
>Maximus in which he asked me to stay, even bringing himself to
>state that the ancient Roman Republic was a "representative
>democracy". When one's worst political enemy asks one to stay, one
>must take it seriously. Even if he primarily wants me here to fight
>with, I think.

Cassius:
Personally, I think such a situation is unfortunate. You have much
more to offer Nova Roma than to serve as a "professional adversary".
It seems to me at least that your Citizenship in the last few months
can be summed up in a single sentence from an old James Dean movie:

"What are you rebelling against?"
"Whadda ya got?"

You've got more talent than that. Really.

> Formosanus:
> Besides, I couldn't let Consular Audens steal my mantle of Chief
> Demagogue, now could I? ;-)

Cassius:
No, you couldn't. I believe I referenced this phenomenon in a prior
post in fact.

> Formosanus:
> I wish to make it clear that I am not comfortable being a member of
>an organisation with the present leges on name changes and
>resignation and return. I do not intend to start a campaign against
>them instantly, but I shall consider their amelioration to be a
>long-term goal of my political activity, assuming that I shall be
here for the long term.

Cassius:
I have a question, Formosanus. Can you name say, five things that you
like about or are comfortable with in Nova Roma?

> Formosanus:
> I also wish to make it public knowledge that I am indeed a founding
> memeber of another of another Roman cultural organisation. This had
> been made a point of controversy previously. I think, however, that
it is obvious that we all have a right to be a member of other
> organisations related to Roman culture, and indeed to found them.
That to which I refer is not a micronation, and I see no conflict in
doing my job as a magistrate in Nova Roma and performing official
duties in another organisation. I am not trying to solicit for this
organisation on the NR list, so I shall not give particulars here. I
mention it so that it will be in the light of day and treated as the
normal thing that it is.

Cassius:
Bravo! Formosanus, the above paragraph is the real reason that I am
replying to your "return". I am so very glad to see this! You deserve
to run your own organization, even though your friends from the Amici
Dignitatis and the "Ides of March" folks seemed not to want to
participate in such alongside you for various reasons. You richly
deserve the work that goes into building a public organiztion! You'll
find it vastly different than merely critiquing an existing group.
May your efforts be successful, and your membership be large!

(text regarding Gens Cornelia and Q. Fabius Maximus snipped)

>Formosanus:
> I have observed some constructive signs on the List of late. I hope
> they bear some fruit.

Cassius:
There certainly have been some constructive signs on the List of
late. Citizens re-thinking their resignations, just for a start!
Hopefully if we all intend to be here we can find things in which we
can work *together*, rather than from separate points as bitter
adversaries.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul

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Subject:	RE: Re: [novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 17:50:34 -0700

Salvete Tribune Fortunate et Quiritibus;

As much as it absolutely pains me to say so (yes, I
gotta be honest :-) -I have to concur with your
assessment Senator. Equal legal treatment is
imperative for all our citizens. As far as I'm
concerned, magistrates continue in their legally
capacities under the Lex until their official
nine day waiting period has expired.

As a Plebeian, I have no desire to go through
yet another election just to 'test' the integrity
of the Lex. The remaining term shortens with each
passing week and if we can get through it without
yet another series of elections; then so much
the better. Since I haven't been counting the
days and the hours since Aedile Formosanus'
resignation, (I know...surprising eh? <G>) then
as long as you vouch for him that he is still
*fully* within the nine day period as stipulated
in the Lex, then it is perfectly fine with this Pleb
if he retains his current office.

Truthfully though, I believe this latest round
of resignations was a test. In this case, a test
of contentious legislation and public opinion. I
didn't then, nor do I now for one moment really believe
Formosanus, Draco or any of the others fully
intended to leave. Therefore, please forgive me
if I don't make a long 'welcome back' speech. Since you
didn't really legally leave; there is nothing to
"welcome." They're all still legally here and as far
as this civis is concerned and it's business as usual.
Now, perhaps as Consul Cassius has so aptly stated -we
can get down to business, get some things accomplished for
the benefit of *all* and quit endlessly dissecting
what citizens like Formosanus are "up to." Citizen
Formosanus -you've gotten your attention now let's
move on.

Bene valete,
Oppius

-----Original Message-----
From: oppiusflaccus@-------- [mailto:oppiusflaccus@--------]
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 5:27 PM
To: adherbal@--------
Subject: Fwd: Re: [novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered

--- In novaroma@--------, Fortunatus <labienus@t...> wrote:
<snipped>

Yes, it is a valid argument to say that a resignation of citizenship
is
not the same thing as a resignation of magistracy. By this line of
reasoning, a magistrate who simply said, "I resign my citizenship,"
would still remain in office until either his reconsideration nundina
lapsed or he returned and served out the remainder of his term.
However, a magistrate who said, "I resign my citizenship and my
magistracy," would not have this luxury.

We MUST NOT choose to accept this argument! L Cornelius stated, in
message #13327 to the main list, "I hereby tender my resignation of
the
office of Censor of Nova Roma." If we bar M Apollonius from office,
then we must also declare everything L Cornelius has done since Maius
2753 to be null and void. We must also hold M Minucius and Q Fabius
guilty of violating the constitution. This, I hope, is obviously
unacceptable.

<snipped>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Gone Again!
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 21:06:26 -0400 (EDT)

Nova Roma Citizens:

For those of you who may be interested,I will be out of town engaging in
a reenactment training weekend at Fort Nathan Hale, in New Haven CT for
the coming weekend.

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	[novaroma] Legion XXIV News and Roll Call June 2001
From:	"LegionXXIV" <legionXXIV@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 21:10:18 -0400

LEGION XXIV NEWS AND ROLL CALL

CAMPAIGN IN THE POCONOS !
The Legion has been invited to participate in a "March Thru Time" Event at
Memory Town, just south of Mount Pocono, PA on Sept 8 and 9th, 2001.
It is billed as a "Living History Event Spanning the Ages" and is being
sponsored by Company A of the First North Carolina Sharpshooter Battalion.

The site will have rest rooms and showers, along with a restaurant and bar with
entertainment. Also on the property are gift shops and the oldest working
printing press in the northeast. A cabin with 24 hour coffee will be available.
On-site modern motel rooms are also available. Call 570-839-1680 for reservations.

Torch Light tours will be held on Saturday night and each unit will put on a small
skit to exhibit the camp life of their period of history.

Sutlers will be few, so bring what you expect you may need.

Finally there is a campaign and an opportunity for our Legion XXIV Troopers in the
north to come and assist in defending Rome up here in our Provincia and we should
try to have a good showing.
Please contact the Commander if you can attend so he can make the necessary
arrangements with Memory Town and Company A. See the directions below.

LAST CALL for Roman Days with Legion XX at Marietta Mansion on June 9-10.
This is always a big day for us Romans and Legion XXIV should have a good turn-out.
Again, please let the Commander know if you will be with him at Roman Days.
Directions to Marietta Mansion are below.

FORT MALDEN The Legion will again be at Fort Malden in Amherstburg, Ontario on
August 4 and 5, 2001, opposite Detroit. The Canadian NovaRoma contingent is also
planning to be there for a regional gathering. Yes, it is a long drive; but this event is
very friendly and busy with visitors. Several cannons are fired and a rate of fire demo
and tactical engagements are quite enlightening. Last year the Commander was joined
by a couple of the local area legionaries and a few more are expected to turn-out this year.

There is a new major section on gladiator combat and the Colosseum.
Termed the Gladiatorium Academia. It was authored by John Ebel, who
is a very active new recruit, and your Commander. We are planning to have
gladiatorial exhibitions and the call is out for gladiator trainees. Are you up to
training for the "Games"?

John has arranged for two such exhibitions west of Boston, MA on Wednesday
July 18th and Wednesday, August 8th. Yes! They are during the week; but the
promoter is offering a generous stipend and lodging for those of us who could participate.
Contact John Ebel at 631-329-2430. He is moving and his computer is down for
a month or so.
We are also planning a session at Roman Days, June 9-10 at Marietta Mansion, in
Glenn dale, MD; with Legion XX and Legion III Gallica. 10 AM to 4 PM both days.
This IS THE Roman event of the year and we should all set the dates aside.
Roman Olympics! Battle Tactics and Demo! NovaRoma Meeting.
Last year we had 15 troopers! - with our support it can be twenty!
So get to work on your kit, turn-out and show your pride in Ancient Rome.
There will be some extra gear available. See below for directions.

ROLL CALL !
There are about 30 names on the Legion XXIV Roster. Some are active and some are
attempting to get their kit together, many are from a distance away and are unable to
turn-out regularly, and many others we have not heard from for some time.

In order to keep the roster current, it is requested that you all reply to the Commander with
your Roman Name, status, address, phone number, how you are making out with your
equipment and if you need some help. When is the best time to contact you?
I know a few of you have attempted to meet with me and we have not been able to find an
agreeable date and time. Most of you work, many on weekends and some are still pursuing
an education, precluding meeting-up in the evenings; and my weekends and evenings are quite
taken up as well. My apologies for not getting with you.

There have been a number of additions to the website. Particularly an extensive page on
Gladiators and the Colosseum. Many new pictures have been added on the Weapons and
Equipment pages as well. Check into the site often. http://www.legionxxiv.org
Directions to Marietta Mansion: 5626 Bell Station Rd., Glenn Dale, MD 20769.

301-464-5291.
>From I-95/495, the Capital Beltway, take Exit 20 onto Rt. 450 East, go 4 miles,

turn left on Rt. 193, then left onto Bell Station Rd. and a 1000 feet to left into
Marietta (or follow the signs to the parking area).

Directions to Memory Town - March Thru Time

Your best route to east or west on I-80, to north on I-380, to Exit 8 "PA Rt 940"

East into Mount Pocono and south on US 611, approx. half a mile thru town and under railroad bridge.

Go 75 yards past railroad bridge to Grange Road on the left.

Left onto Grange Road to Memory Town.

Rt 611 north may be used from I-80 Exit 45; in which case Grange Road will be

approx.. 3.5 miles on your right and if you go under the railroad you went too far.

Hoping to hear from you all and better yet having you with us at an upcoming
campaign, I remain as always

(take your pick)

Tuus in Sodalicio Imperium Romanae
Yours in the Comradeship of the Roman Empire

Tuus in Sodalicio Respublica Romanae
Yours in the Comradeship of the Roman Republic

Gallio / George

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Subject:	[novaroma] Ave Quintus Fabius Maximus
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 01:11:54 -0000

Salvete Omnes:

I would like to express my personal admiration for the recent act of
diplomacy on the part of Quintus Fabius Maximus, Proconsul, Praetor Urbanis
et Pontifex Nova Roma.

I appreciate your initiative, Proconsul Fabi, in tearing the veil of discord
and abundant disagreement in attempt to come to a parallel understanding
with the recently returned Marcus Apollonius Formosanus.

All my hopes for a continued bond of concord between the two of you, for
yourselves, and for the growth of the res publica.

Bene valete,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
Propraetrix pro temp.
Canada Orientalis
NOVA ROMA

_________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 21:16:12 -0400

Oppius Flaccus Severus wrote:

> Truthfully though, I believe this latest round
> of resignations was a test. In this case, a test
> of contentious legislation and public opinion. I
> didn't then, nor do I now for one moment really believe
> Formosanus, Draco or any of the others fully
> intended to leave.

As a citizen of this nation I don't want to put up with "games" of our high
officials in the form of resignations! There should be penalties! Once you
say you are going to resign you should lose all positions you earned!

What sort of government is this? You can publicly announce a resignation
then "poof" your back with everything you had because you suddenly decide to
return. We must make the law crystal clear and make those who resigned see
that they cannot, and will not, play head games like these resignations!
Notice how I said "head games"? Well that's exactly what I believe some of
these resignation where... These people cannot go back into power with out a
confrontation. There must be many civis who would be more than happy to do
the job and NOT resign then come back like all is well. These civis must
have a chance at least to replace the ones who obviously have there doubts
in our nation and decided that they want to leave. That is again, if they
truly meant to leave in the first place.........

Hinc est mei oratio!

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Civis Canada Orientalis
Canada Orientalis Website Retarius
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 20:32:47 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Amuli Claudi,

> What sort of government is this? You can publicly announce a resignation
> then "poof" your back with everything you had because you suddenly decide to
> return. We must make the law crystal clear and make those who resigned see
> that they cannot, and will not, play head games like these resignations!

Yes, we should. But that's a law that doesn't exist yet.

Tribune Titus Labienus has correctly pointed out that Lucius Cornelius Sulla
briefly resigned as Censor last year -- specifically resigning from his
office as well as his citizenship, just like Formosanus did a few days
ago. When Sulla reconsidered and withdrew his resignation, less than
a day later, he was allowed to continue as Censor.

Therefore, the precedent has been set. We must be fair and consistent
in our application of the law, regardless of the personalities
involved.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 21:44:57 -0400

Marcus Octavius Germanicus wrote:

> Yes, we should. But that's a law that doesn't exist yet.

Well then senate must get to work on making this law. May we learn from this
situation make make sure that it never takes place again. All those that
resigned and returned expecting a warm welcome with there cozy positions
reinstated I hope you feel guilty for abusing your power. If you don't you
truly don't deserve to be where you are now.

I still hope we could teach the shameful political leaders a lesson if
possible. They played us like fools, I hope you realise this fellow civis et
amicus. It angers me to think they still have any power at all after they
are through with it.

Hinc est mei oratio!

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Civis Canada Orientalis
Canada Orientalis Website Retarius
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 01:56:05 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@b...> wrote:
> Oppius Flaccus Severus wrote:
>
> > Truthfully though, I believe this latest round
> > of resignations was a test. In this case, a test
> > of contentious legislation and public opinion. I
> > didn't then, nor do I now for one moment really believe
> > Formosanus, Draco or any of the others fully
> > intended to leave.
>
> As a citizen of this nation I don't want to put up with "games" of
our high
> officials in the form of resignations! There should be penalties!
Once you
> say you are going to resign you should lose all positions you earned!
>
> What sort of government is this? You can publicly announce a resignation
> then "poof" your back with everything you had because you suddenly
decide to
> return. We must make the law crystal clear and make those who
resigned see
> that they cannot, and will not, play head games like these resignations!
> Notice how I said "head games"? Well that's exactly what I believe
some of
> these resignation where... These people cannot go back into power
with out a
> confrontation. There must be many civis who would be more than happy
to do
> the job and NOT resign then come back like all is well. These civis must
> have a chance at least to replace the ones who obviously have there
doubts
> in our nation and decided that they want to leave. That is again, if
they
> truly meant to leave in the first place.........
>
>
>
> Hinc est mei oratio!
>
> --
> Amulius Claudius Petrus
> Civis Canada Orientalis
> Canada Orientalis Website Retarius
> www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

Salve Amuli Claudi,

We are a nation of laws. What the law is and what it should be are two
different things, and under our current laws Marcus Apollonius is the
Plebian Aedile.

Many of those who posted arguments in his favor are long time
policital foes of the Aedile. This isn't a case of Formosanus' friends
rallying to his defense. This is a case of citizens placing thier
respect for the law above policital advantage, and I think it's a very
good sign for the future health of our nation.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] my stuff on a web site!!
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 22:06:59 EDT

> Hello all,
> I actually have some jewelry on a web site. The woman that owns the
> site is also my Chieftess/leader of my Elfquest group. She took some of my
> stuff to a small con in Illinois and actually sold pieces at the art show
> for me.
>
> We are experimenting with her site and would love to have you visit. My
> things are under "Merchant's daughter hidden treasures"
> <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/clouddancying/index.html">burnt offers merch</A>
http://www.geocities.com/clouddancying/index.html

> ** She is a proud and active Pagan and if this subject is disagreeable with
> you this is a note to consider. She is a very kind and generous person whom
> I find in great favor **.
> ### The above was geared more to some of the other lists I am on than NR
> ###
> <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/clouddancying/index.html">burnt offers merch</A>
Prima Ancinna Drusila (nr)

> Aminah (sca)
> Janet (my other life)
> <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/clouddancying/index.html">burnt offers merch</A>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] NR COINS - At Last!
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 22:13:04 EDT

Salvete Omnes,

It is my pleasure to announce that the Nova Roma coins are *finally*
available for purchase online! For the moment they are at:

http://www.imperiumarts.com/NRCoins.htm

While this link will remain active, the coin page will hopefully be moved
"officially" to the NR website soon. In the meantime the order info and links
here are valid.

Please do note that my web page design skills are rudimentary at best. If
I've forgotten any info or you notice anything on the page that needs to be
changed, please email me off list!

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul

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Subject:	[novaroma] Canada Orientalis Provincia: Edictum V
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 02:28:28 -0000

31 May, 2754 AUC

CANADA ORIENTALIS PROVINCIA

NOVA ROMA
EDICTUM V

It is with great pleasure this day, that I appoint citizen
APPIUS TULLIUS MARCELLUS CATO to the position of PROCURATOR, PROVINCIA
CANADA ORIENTALIS

The duties of Provincial Procurator are as follows:

i) to act as Deputy Propraetor during any periods of short term absence
of the Propraetrix from her gubernatorial duties, to wit, to stand as a
resource person to the civites of Canada Orientalis Provincia, and to render
necessary decisions on behalf of the provincia, such decisions to be made in
accordance with existing provincial edicta, and the lexes and constitution
of Nova Roma.

ii) to assist the Propraetor in the dispursement of provincial funds, and to
assist in the proper disbursal of tax monies to the res publica Nova Roma.

I feel very privileged to have such a dedicated and competent individual as
Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato assisting me.

In service to the res publica:

Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
Propraetrix pro temp
Canada Orientalis Provincia
NOVA ROMA
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Subject:	[novaroma] CANADA ORIENTALIS: PROVINCIAL EDICTUM
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 02:36:22 -0000

CANADA ORIENTALIS PROVINCIA

NOVA ROMA

EDICTUM VI

It is with great pleasure that I officially appoint citizen
AMULIUS CLAUDIUS PETRUS the position and title of

RETARIUS OFFICIUM CANADA ORIENTALIS

Duties of Retarius entail production and management of Canada Orientalis
Provincia Website, such production and management to be in keeping with the
current provincial edicta, and also the laws and constitution of res publica
Nova Roma.

I would like to officially express my heartfelt gratitude on the excellent
work Amulius Claudius Petrus has done to date in the contruction of a
beautiful website for the provincia.

In service to the res publica:

Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
Propraetrix pro temp.
Canada Orientalis Provincia
NOVA ROMA
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: NR COINS - At Last!
From:	oppiusflaccus@--------
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 02:46:48 -0000

Salvete Consul Cassi et Omnes;

The site looks great! You've got the item description and the
'order here' link; pretty much all that's needed for
such an endeavor.

Just placed my first order for a batch of 40 of them.
Gratias multas for all your hard work with this project!

Bene valete,
Oppius

--- In novaroma@--------, cassius622@a... wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> It is my pleasure to announce that the Nova Roma coins are
*finally*
> available for purchase online! For the moment they are at:
>
> http://www.imperiumarts.com/NRCoins.htm
>
<snipped>

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 23:00:36 -0400

Salve,

>>Tribune Titus Labienus has correctly pointed out that Lucius Cornelius
Sulla
briefly resigned as Censor last year >>

Forgive me if this has been addressed already, but was the Resignation
Edict/9-day reconsideration in effect when Sulla left and returned?

I would have to say, for the record, that regardless of *who* it effects, I
agree with those who feel that abandoned offices should not be so easily
reacquired. Citizenship, surely.....but not the offices.

If the Plebs wish to overlook his resignation and still have confidence in
Formosanus to hold his office, I wish him well in an election. I do not
think it is fair to assume that, having cast aside the position, he is
necessarily the same man they wish to have represent them in such a way. If
he were to run again and win again I would be among the first to
congratulate him.

This is just my opinion, and yes.......I think this should go for
*everyone*.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 22:22:36 -0500

Salve Priscilla Vedia

> Forgive me if this has been addressed already, but was the Resignation
> Edict/9-day reconsideration in effect when Sulla left and returned?

The resignation edictum was not in effect when Sulla resigned. That
fact is entirely beside the point. All the edictum did was establish
the reconsideration nundina with respect to resignations of
citizenship. It in no way changes the fact that Sulla resigned his
offices and subsequently had them returned to him in full upon his
change of heart.

> I would have to say, for the record, that regardless of *who* it
> effects, I agree with those who feel that abandoned offices should
> not be so easily reacquired. Citizenship, surely.....but not the
> offices.

Until and unless a law is enacted covering this issue, we must abide by
the precedent set. To do as you wish in this case would be to have the
state apply different standards to different cives in similar
situations. If we were to do this, it would be a ringing declaration
that an oligarchic good-old-boy network really does exist in Nova Roma,
and it would be a defeat for the consistent rule of law.

Vale
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Ipsa scientia potestas est."
-Francis Bacon

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 03:22:47 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@g...> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> >>Tribune Titus Labienus has correctly pointed out that Lucius Cornelius
> Sulla
> briefly resigned as Censor last year >>
>
> Forgive me if this has been addressed already, but was the Resignation
> Edict/9-day reconsideration in effect when Sulla left and returned?
>
> I would have to say, for the record, that regardless of *who* it
effects, I
> agree with those who feel that abandoned offices should not be so easily
> reacquired. Citizenship, surely.....but not the offices.
>
> If the Plebs wish to overlook his resignation and still have
confidence in
> Formosanus to hold his office, I wish him well in an election. I do not
> think it is fair to assume that, having cast aside the position, he is
> necessarily the same man they wish to have represent them in such a
way. If
> he were to run again and win again I would be among the first to
> congratulate him.
>
> This is just my opinion, and yes.......I think this should go for
> *everyone*.
>
> Vale,
> Priscilla Vedia Serena

Salve,
No it wasn't in effect during Sulla's brief exit. So Sulla's
resignation took effect immeditally. Nor was there a return procedure
in place. The edict was issused in October 5 months after Sulla's
resignation.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	TSardonicus@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 May 2001 23:32:35 EDT

Salvete,

In a message dated 5/31/01 6:48:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, pkkt@--------
wrote:

> All those that
> resigned and returned expecting a warm welcome with there cozy positions
> reinstated I hope you feel guilty for abusing your power. If you don't you
> truly don't deserve to be where you are now.

It was not my intent to abuse power. For, you see, I have none. I am (or
was, depending on the outcome of this recent debate) a mere Quaestor. I was
simply very sick and tired of the endless, childish, personal attacks on this
list. To my discredit, I responded with my own petulant behavior when I
thought screw this....I quit. The political in-fighting and personal attacks
sickened me to the point that I could only sit slack-jawed and stare. I
thought that it was indicative of what NR had become. I was wrong.

>
> I still hope we could teach the shameful political leaders a lesson if
> possible. They played us like fools, I hope you realise this fellow civis
et
> amicus. It angers me to think they still have any power at all after they
> are through with it.

I don't believe I "played" anyone. I just want to see Nova Roma blossom into
the wonderful community it could become without all of the disrespect. I
believe it is possible to have an organization of people with very disparate
views succeed as long as we have respect for each other. The lack of respect
is what concerns me. I suspect that S. Apollonius Draco and M. Apollonius
Formosanus felt similarly when they posted their own resignations. Please
correct me if I am wrong. I'm still working through my own disgust at the
lack of Dignitas that many, including myself, have shown on this list.

Please stop looking for ulterior motives, cheap political tactics and
conspiracy where there are none.

Valete,
Lucius Cornelius Sardonicus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Fwd: FW: WEll now - HEADS UP.
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 07:44:00 +0200

>----------
>From: Globpronet@--------
>Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 20:11:16 EDT
>To: alexious@--------
>Subject: Re: WEll now - HEADS UP.
>
>In a message dated 5/31/2001 3:44:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>alexious@-------- writes:
>
>
>OK, can you have have the Propraetor of Thule post this in the forum? Then
>you aren't involved:
>Title: Following a precedent concerning M. Apollonius Formosanus
>Salvete Romanoi.
>
>I am not sure what my colleague has posted on this subject or any other
>magistrate, however if there is any question of M. Apollonius Formosanus
>returning to the office of Aedile he must be allowed to do so. Since he was
>elected by the Plebs, I don't mean to step on the Tribunates toes here, but
>in late April early or May of last year during my and Marcus Minucius
>consulship, L. Cornelius Sulla, the only Censor of Rome at the time,
>resigned
>his offices and citizenship in a fit of depression. He rescinded the
>following day. The consuls allowed him to resume his offices and honors.
>The reason he was unbalanced from life threatening surgery. Did we do the
>right thing? I'd say yes. Rome would have been without a censor. It would
>be unfair to deprive L. Cornelius Sulla for one small mistake. Therefore a
>precedent exists.
>Last week M. Apollonius Formosanus Roman plebeian aedile, resigned his
>offices and citizenship in a fit of depression. He has rescinded recently.
>As long as we follow the Law
>here in Rome, he must be allowed back with his honors and offices intact
>unless the nine day period has expired.
>That is our Law, and we have precedent.
>No doubt many of you will wonder why this was sent in such a roundabout way.
>As you read this I'm over the Atlantic flying to the USA. I cannot post on
>the mainlist since this address is not cleared to do so. The Senior
>Magistrates and Senate will doubtless be
>uncertain of this post due to its the nature of its arrival and the subject
>material.
>I am who I say I am. For proof I give out my "signet ring seal" my voter
>registration code
>DVZ480 Octavious will confirm this is correct. Also I'll need a new one as
>soon as possible since all of Rome now knows it.
>Tribune, it is you that protect the people. I ask that you include the
>above
>in any decision
>the plebes makes.
>Valete
>Q. Fabius Maximus
>Praetor Urbanus
>
>Get this to Fabius as quick as possible
>Thanks
>QFM
>

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Fwd: FW: WEll now - HEADS UP.
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 07:58:38 +0200

>I am who I say I am. For proof I give out my "signet ring seal" my voter
>registration code
>DVZ480 Octavious will confirm this is correct. Also I'll need a new one as
>soon as possible since all of Rome now knows it.
>Tribune, it is you that protect the people. I ask that you include the
>above
>in any decision
>the plebes makes.
>Valete
>Q. Fabius Maximus
>Praetor Urbanus
>
>Get this to Fabius as quick as possible
>Thanks
>QFM

Salvete Omnes!

I have been asked to forward this message. I must clearly state that this
brings to me my open admiration of my Pater for this act of Concordia!!! I
also extend my admiration to the messenger, who in this unselfish act gave
his support to this act! I hope I have done the right thing by forwarding
this message.

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
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"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
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************************************************
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************************************************
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Dilbertus' handbook for magistrates
From:	"Gaius Marcius Coriolanus" <coriolanus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 06:11:41 -0000

Salve Draco

Who Is Dilbert? I have never heard about him, but I like this post
much. It's tv cartoon or its or comics? Tell more please.

Vale
Gaius Marcius Coriolanus

(The part about edictas is really great).

> >
> > DILBERTUS' HANDBOOK FOR MAGISTRATES
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > 1. Introduction
> > ------------------
> >
> > This handbook is intended for magistrates who are frequently
asking
> themselves the question: am I doing it the right way? If you're
> reading this, you probably aren't. You are probably still too
humane,
> weak and compassionate to have what it takes to be a good
magistrate.
> However, do not despair. This handbook will offer you some
solutions
> to problems you have and will run into.
> >
> >
> > 2. Becoming a magistrate
> > --------------------------------
> >
> > a) elections
> > ---------------
> >
> > That is probably the easiest part of all. If you talk regulary in
> the Forum, and keep relatively silent during the elections, with a
> programme as limited as possible, relying on name recognition
mainly,
> you will probably get elected. Two problems, however, may occur:
> > a.. another blockhead like you might decide to run for the
> elections, using similar tactics - in case you lose, become his
> friend, and try again for next elections
> > b.. a scandal will break out - of course you know it is not
> true, but the citizens don't know this - for a solution, see the
> troubleshooting section
> > Everything also depends on the office you are running for. Look
at
> it like the scales of a balance. The lower the office, the easier
> you'll get elected, and the more respect you'll get. The more
> mediocre the office, the harder you get elected, and the less
respect
> you'll get. The higher the officer, the easier you'll get elected,
> and the more ego you'll get (note: never use that term - instead,
> make use of the word "dignitas"). Your success will also depend on
> whether you've been a magistrate previously or not. Whether you've
> actually done anything in that office other than gathering century
> points for basically filling a spot with your presence doesn't
really
> matter. Key point is that if you really want to be successful, you
> have to have some patience by doing your time in a low office first
> (note: never pick Rogator - you'll get a lot of respect if you run
> for this office, but you will not be envied).
> >
> >
> > b) making friends
> > ----------------------
> >
> > Beforehand, it is usually a good idea to make some friends. By
the
> term friends, we of course do not mean the type of human beings you
> would entrust with your heart and soul, because you simply don't
have
> a heart nor soul. That's a good thing. However, in order to make
> friends or allies, you must take a moderate position when you're
> starting out low. Since people love mediocrity, and a person they
can
> identify themselves with (or, a role model), they will love you.
You
> must be vague, and talk a lot about the virtues. That's as far as
> creating your popular support goes.
> >
> > The most important thing, of course, is to have friends among the
> establishment. If you were admitted in Nova Roma in the first
place,
> there must be at least a few power-mad men or women in command that
> are a bit like you. Frequently contact them and applaud their
> actions - even though most of their actions will simply consist of
> talking. Tell them you admire their efforts for Nova Roma. Tell
them
> you think they are funny, and are interesting people. Even though
> they are interesting from a psychological perspective, they are
> usually single-minded and not funny at all. You could also ask to
> become their scriba. That's a good thing. It's a little office that
> links you to the person professionally, but where you're basically
> doing nothing anyway (note: becoming a Censor's scriba is a good
> thing, but ensure to have a lot of leaves of absence, or you might
> actually wind up doing some work). Endorse these people publically,
> but if they get too unpopular, keep quiet on the Forum.
> >
> > A small addendum on gentes: the larger, the better. Preferrably
be
> paterfamilias of it, and it you're not, become a prominent member
of
> it. Gentiles, even if they do not like you, will probably be a base
> of support. Under any circumstance, don't become a gentilis of
> someone of your friends, but rather your enemies, if you must. In
> latter position, you can more easily tear down the dignity of your
> pater- or materfamilias.
> >
> >
> > 3. Being a magistrate
> > ---------------------------
> >
> > a) oaths
> > -----------
> >
> > Congratulations, you made it! The first action you must undertake
> is the oath of office. Cut and paste it from another oath, replace
> every reference to the other name with your own, and then send it
off
> as fast as possible. Frequently return to the sacred oath if
someone
> else breaks it by abandoning office is a good thing, even if you
> aren't upholding a word of that oath yourself. People will take you
> seriously with an oath, and will respect you even more because you
> stress the importance of them.
> >
> > b) actions
> > -------------
> >
> > The best type of magistrate you can be is one that has the power
to
> publish edicta. Every three months, it's a good thing to post an
> edictum, written in bureaucratical language to make it seem
> important, that basically does not contain much (note: make sure
that
> it does not harm yourself or your allies in any way). Edicta that
> actually have something to say should be much longer, and even more
> bureacratical. Use the erratic Latin you know (if someone
criticizes
> you on your incorrect use of Latin, see troubleshooting).
> >
> > Frequently add new titles to your name that seem impressive, and
> frequently step down from another office you're holding (note: make
> sure that office goes to one of your friends) to enlarge your
> dignitas, and uphold the image of the hard-working magistrate. If
you
> actually happen to run into some work, have your colleague do it.
If
> you don't have a colleague, or if you're colleague is like
> you, "threaten" to publish (simply by saying: "we'll have to
> legislate this properly") an edictum and talk about it in the
Senate.
> Stall the really important decisions, and leave them in the hands
of
> someone else (preferrably a scriba), while you must still get the
> glory. Say you are interested in religion and culture too, and
become
> a listmember without contributing. Try to pick along a religious
> position if you can; they greatly enhance your image while you
> yourself are not required to do anything at all.
> >
> > Talk some in the Forum. Depending on how high your position is,
you
> will be able to afford yourself more pompous and statist
viewpoints.
> In every speech you make, never forget to stress the importance of
> the state, and its seriousness. Nice but not required is to be
vague
> (note: make it appear so that it is poetic), so that people will
come
> to see you as a philosopher, too. This will earn you respect from
the
> dummies, who will obviously make it to the next generation of
> magistrates, but you will also get some opposition. This is dealth
> with in next section.
> >
> > c) troubleshooting
> > ----------------------
> >
> > Inevitably, you are probably going to get opposition. The higher
> your office, the more complaints you're probably going to get.
Here's
> how to react to opposition:
> > a.. never let a chance pass on by to correct them, even if
> their mistake is futile (= look at how smart I am)
> > b.. if you are met with a small opposition, claim that it is
> simply ungrateful for the massive work you have done for all the
> people
> > c.. if you are met with a medium opposition, get yourself
some
> henchmen - they are usually recognized by their frequent use of the
> extreme political arguments, their inability at empathy, and are
> royal pains in the podeces (kind of like you, but less smart) - and
> they will do much of the clean-up work for you
> > d.. if you are met with a heavy opposition, either simply
shut
> up for a large time, or try to effectuate a counter-scandal
> (preferrably by the use of the aforementioned henchmen)
> > e.. if you know that what people say is true, say you feel
> attacked in your dignitas
> > f.. if your opposition is persistent, say they are a bad
> example of Romanitas (= saying you are a good example)
> > g.. if you get comments about the quality of your Latin, make
> the critics appear like pedantic people
> > h.. frequently complain about the mass of work you have to do
> > i.. talk beside the issue; instead do not mention names, but
> let the ones who you intend to feel hurt really feel what you mean
> (it takes some skill to do this: try to practice it first)
> > j.. if your opposition is persistent, even after being
treated
> by above solution, there are three options left
> > a.. try to turn them into your allies (by promising them
> power, for example); if you they are on the verge of beating you,
> make sure they join you
> > b.. suggest an empty compromise, and then start
> backstabbing them (again, preferrably through the use of henchmen)
> > c.. politely suggesting them to leave Nova Roma, because
> they will never change anyway (neither will you, but that is of
> course out of the question)
> > Things you must, under any circumstance, not do:
> > a.. say what you really think of person x or y
> > b.. show your true political colours, even if you are a naked
> opportunist
> >
> > 4. Ensuring your future
> > -----------------------------
> >
> > Since you cannot be a magistrate forever, you must recruit a next
> generation of people who think like you, and do the same things
like
> you. Among your previously mentioned henchmen, some of these may be
> found. However, the ones you can best keep an eye on are those with
a
> limited point of view, no real opinion other than that of the likes
> of you, and carry the seeds in them to act like you. You do not
have
> to like these people, but they will support you. Support them.
> Endorse them. Make them scribae or clientes.
> >
> > And Fortuna will smile upon you (on the other side of the mirror).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ***---***
> >
> > Valete bene,
> > Draco
> >
> >
> >
> > "Jeder f�r sich, und Gott gegen allen."
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	"Gaius Marcius Coriolanus" <coriolanus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 06:31:30 -0000

Ave

> Oppius Flaccus Severus wrote:
>
> > Truthfully though, I believe this latest round
> > of resignations was a test. In this case, a test
> > of contentious legislation and public opinion. I
> > didn't then, nor do I now for one moment really believe
> > Formosanus, Draco or any of the others fully
> > intended to leave.

Do believe it. My son in Gens Marcia Mracus Marcius Rufus really left
us.

Amulius Claudius Petrus wrote:
> As a citizen of this nation I don't want to put up with "games" of
our high
> officials in the form of resignations! There should be penalties!
Once you
> say you are going to resign you should lose all positions you
earned!

Penalties are not good idea. Maybe it is officials game but maybe not.
And penalties could harm any citizen.
And after all we've got lex with 9 days to cool our heads and think
about resignation again.

Gaius Marcius Coriolanus
Paterfamilias Gentis Marcia

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Ave Quintus Fabius Maximus
From:	"Matthias Stappert" <3s@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 06:59:27 -0000

Salvete, Quirites,

--- In novaroma@--------, "Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> I would like to express my personal admiration for the recent act
of
> diplomacy on the part of Quintus Fabius Maximus, Proconsul, Praetor
Urbanis
> et Pontifex Nova Roma.
>
> I appreciate your initiative, Proconsul Fabi, in tearing the veil
of discord
> and abundant disagreement in attempt to come to a parallel
understanding
> with the recently returned Marcus Apollonius Formosanus.

Q. Fabius Maximus action is indeed remarkable and honourable. I
believe all citizens know the dissenses between Q. Fabius Maximus and
M. Apollonius Formosanus.
Q. Fabi Maxime, this was an outstanding act of peronal honor!

Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Praetor, Senator

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	"Matthias Stappert" <3s@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 07:34:08 -0000

Salvete Quirites,

Please let me give some remarks.

"...
When a citizen resigns citizenship in Nova Roma, the resignation will
not take effect for nine days from the date of submitting the
message, counting inclusively of the date of submitting the message.
If, during this nundina, the citizen desires to withdraw his or her
resignation and remain a citizen, that citizen may freely do so
without penalty, except as defined in the next
paragraph."

Important is the formulation: ... the resignation will not take
effect for nine days from the date of submitting the message...

This means: If I would resign citizenship today, June 1st, I continue
to be a NR citizen for further 8 days, because the resignation ***
will not take effect ***. If I continue to be a NR citizen, I
continue to be a magistrate. Furthermore if I continue to be a
citizen and magistrate during these 9 days, and I revoke my
resignation during this period of time, my resignation is null and
void, and I continue to be a citizen and magistrate as if I never
resigned citizenship.

Marcus Apollonius revoked his resignation during the nundina. So his
resignation is null and void.

"...If a currently serving magistrate submits and withdraws multiple
resignations of citizenship within the same calendar year, the
censores will have grounds, after a closed hearing at which the
magistrate will have opportunity to present reasoning for his/her
actions, to issue an edictum against the magistrate rendering him/her
ineligible to run for elected office for one year. Should the
magistrate believe that he/she has a case for appeal of such an
edictum, he/she can appeal to a Tribunus Plebis, Praetor or Consul
within 30 days of issuance of the edictum as follows---..."

This section is not an exeption for the aforesaid section in this
case, because we need following prerequisites:
- a serving magistrate (we have one, a Aedilis Plebis)
- must submit and withdraw multiple resignations (this is not the
case, M. Apollonius Formosanus submitted and withdrew citizenship one
time).

Only if all prerequisites are fulfilled, the sitting magistrate can
be rendered ineligible to *run for elected office for one year*.
Nothing is said that the sitting magistrate is impeached by law.

Furthermore, we have a precedent, as Senator Marcus Octavius
Germanicus and others correctly pointed out.

Imho, all discussion about the magisterial status of M. Apollonius is
obsolete, because he continues to be a citizen and Aedilis Plebis, by
legal regulation.

This is my interpretation of law, and it contains no political
statement.

As you see, L. Sicini, we still have Praetors....

Valete
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Praetor, Senator

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Resignation reconsidered
From:	alexanderprobus@--------
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 07:41:48 -0000

Salutem plurimam dicit amice Formosane et amice Sullae,

It is a great feast for me to see both of you communicating with
respect to each other. I wellcome you back Formosanus and thank you
for your decision. I thank you too Sulla. It is great you step over
the small personal misunderstandings in favour of Concordia and Salus
of the republic.
I would also like to express my highly appreciation of the Fabius
Maximus' act. It is hounourable. I am sure now, there are going to
come better times for NR and her citizens. There will be always
differences of opinions about this or that... But we may never allow
the differences in opinions to grow up to personal enimity nor
personal insults /especially on the Forum/.

Bene valete and sun in your souls

Alexander I.C. Probus

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Subject:	[novaroma] "The year of Concordia"
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:20:48 +0200

Salvete Omnes!

As the the forwarder of the message from my Pater I just sent the message
on. For anyone who reads the message it is clear that there is another
person involved in helping my Pater getting the message out. This person is
Illustrus Senator and Censor Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix.

I want to publicly honor Illustrus Senator and Censor Lucius Cornelius
Sulla Felix for this act of Concordia! I think that we at the moment could
be going through a period that will be looked upon as "The year of
Concordia" This may be the year when citizens decided to stay in Nova Roma
to build a personal Concordia. This year we may see the continuing of
political fights, but on a base of personal Concordia! Let's hope and let's
work for such a developement!

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
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Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
Using a keyboard that don't want to make L! :-(
************************************************
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Subject:	[novaroma] Welcome back Illustrus Aedilis Plebeius Marcus Apollonius Formosanus!
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:36:25 +0200

Salve Illustrus Aedilis Plebeius Marcus Apollonius Formosanus!

At last I have the honor of welcoming You back to Nova Roma! I hope that
You now take the hands that are extended towards You, not in bitterness,
but in true joy. Let us hope for Concordia on the personal level and let's
continue to disagree at times on the political level. Conflicts about
standpoints and facts can be very productive. Though conflicts between
persons on the personal level could be devastating. Let this period be
remembered as "The year of Concordia"! :-)

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
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Join the List for the Thule Provincia in Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://www.acc.umu.se/~kerish/novaroma/main.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
Using a keyboard that don't want to make L! :-(
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
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Subject:	[novaroma] Questionaire - Romans of the Romans
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 21:28:20 +1000 (EST)

Salvete omnes,

I was put to thinking about this the other night, and,
after thinking about it, I came up with a list of
people I thought displayed true Roman virtues.

* Emperor Trajan
* Gnaeus Julius Agricola
* Gnaeus Domitius Corbulo
* Emperor Marcus Aurelius
* Emperor Augustus
* Gnaeus Marcius Coriolanus
* Marcus Aemilius Scaurus
* Cicero
* Seneca
* Marcus Atilius Regulus
* Germanicus Caesar
* Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
* Marcus Furius Camillus
* Quintus Fabius Maximus Cunctator
* Gaius Popillius Laenas
* Marcus Junius Brutus
* Cato the Censor

Any other thoughts or comments on this list, or any
added suggestions?

Valete bene,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

Legatus Australia Medius
Sacerdos Mars Invictus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Dilbertus' handbook for magistrates
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 11:52:16 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Gaius Marcius Coriolanus" <coriolanus@c...>
wrote:
>
> Salve Draco
>
> Who Is Dilbert? I have never heard about him, but I like this post
> much. It's tv cartoon or its or comics? Tell more please.
>
> Vale
> Gaius Marcius Coriolanus
>
> (The part about edictas is really great).

Dilbert is a Comic strip. There is a Dilbert Web site too.
http://www.dilbert.com/

Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Salve iterum, cives reversi, atque gratias ago
From:	Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 13:45:26 +0200

Salvete Quirites NovaRomani

I am relieved and delighted to see that several cives who resigned and
emigrated reconsidered your decisions and returned to join the civitas
again. Thank you for considering and finally taking this step. Your
departure was a loss - your return will make Nova Roma richer!

It's the nature of internet communities that makes it looks so easy to
leave, but this is not just an ordinary internet community, it's a
microNATION. And although most of us could leave their macronations
without any problems and settle somewhere else (at least for a while),
we ususally don't do that, but keep loyal and stay and perhaps - if
pssible - put some time and energy into making it better for us to live in.

Nova Roma was founded to reconstruct the best of ancient Rome,
contributing our own ideas of humanity, culture, politics etc. which are
moulded by the culture and area we live in, our macronational
environment. In those views we all differ, and we have to compromise to
make things work here.

Draco, I hope you will keep up the good work in the Sodalitatres Musarum
and Latinitatis (is it a Sodalitas yet? I don't know ...).

Iasone Queri, I hope your province will prosper in the future and the
number of your citizens will rise and surpass the current number of
cives Germanici and maybe one day the number of cives Americani? ;o)

Formosane, I hope you'll continue your efforts to teach the cives
NovaRomani Latin which is - imvho - a fundamental skill for someone who
wants to recreate Rome in any way. Also I want to thank you for
considering a reconciliation with L. Cornelius Sulla Censor Pater
Familias meae. Secunda Cornelia as being the envoy will be glad to read
this. I for one hereby offer my assistance for your Schola Latina. If I
can help you with my language skills in Latin, Greek, and German, please
don't hesitate to ask!

Q. Fabi Maxime, following my most admirable soror Pompeia, I would like
to express my respect and admiration for the steps you took. You set a
very positive example of how to create and keep up concordia in the
civitas NovaRomana.

I only hope we will settle the problems concerning the once stated
resignations and clear the way for an even more peaceful and properous
future for the cives of Nova Roma by accepting the fact that all of us
have to compromise all the time and laws that have passed are not carved
into stone for all times. All real things are mutable and ... even
little strokes fell big oaks ... ;o)

Di deaeque nos bene protegant!
Bene valete

_
Lucilla Cornelia Cinna \\
Quaestrix C. Flavio Diocletiano Praetori /\~/\ / )
Propraetori provinciae Germaniae ( )~~~----...,, __/ /
Retaria Sodalitatis Egressus \` �/ /
Musaea collegiorum Calliopes Cliusque \v/ _____( |
Sodalitatis Musarum / \| |~~~~� \ \ \
Civis NovaRomana ( ( | | ) /\ )
Auctrix Bibliotheca Germaniae \_\| | _/ / _| |
http://www.geocities.com/CorneliaLucilla /__/ /__/ /__/

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:06:27 -0400

Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthias Stappert [mailto:3s@--------]
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 3:34 AM
>
> Important is the formulation: ... the resignation will not take
> effect for nine days from the date of submitting the message...
>
> This means: If I would resign citizenship today, June 1st, I continue
> to be a NR citizen for further 8 days, because the resignation ***
> will not take effect ***. If I continue to be a NR citizen, I
> continue to be a magistrate. Furthermore if I continue to be a
> citizen and magistrate during these 9 days, and I revoke my
> resignation during this period of time, my resignation is null and
> void, and I continue to be a citizen and magistrate as if I never
> resigned citizenship.
>
> Marcus Apollonius revoked his resignation during the nundina. So his
> resignation is null and void.

If I may, the lex you quoted has absolutely no bearing on the question of
whether or not Formosanus should retain his office. The lex deals solely
with the question of resignation of citizenship, not offices. Formosanus
resigned not only his citizenship, but specifically and separately resigned
all his offices as well. The mere fact that he did both in the same email
should have no bearing one way or the other.

The fact is, we have no law regulating the resignation of offices, and I
intend to promulgate a lex to cover this omission later this year.

> Furthermore, we have a precedent, as Senator Marcus Octavius
> Germanicus and others correctly pointed out.

Now this is a different argument, and in the face of a lack of legal
regulation, I see no reason not to fall back the precident set when Sulla
resigned last year, as long as it's understood that that's what is
happening. Using this approach, I wouldn't object to Formosanus retaining
his office.

I also see no reason why an elected office should be treated any differently
than an appointed one; I'm not sure what the legal basis for such a
distinction would be (especially with no law to cover the situation). Surely
Pompeia should be reinstated as a full governor immediately as well (not
that there's any real difference between acting governor and full
governor...)?

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 12:30:11 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...>
wrote:
> Salvete
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Matt-------- Stappert [mailto:3s@--------]
> > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 3:34 AM
> >
> > Important is the formulation: ... the resignation will not take
> > effect for nine days from the date of submitting the message...
> >
> > This means: If I would resign citizenship today, June 1st, I
continue
> > to be a NR citizen for further 8 days, because the resignation ***
> > will not take effect ***. If I continue to be a NR citizen, I
> > continue to be a magistrate. Furthermore if I continue to be a
> > citizen and magistrate during these 9 days, and I revoke my
> > resignation during this period of time, my resignation is null and
> > void, and I continue to be a citizen and magistrate as if I never
> > resigned citizenship.
> >
> > Marcus Apollonius revoked his resignation during the nundina. So
his
> > resignation is null and void.
>
> If I may, the lex you quoted has absolutely no bearing on the
question of
> whether or not Formosanus should retain his office. The lex deals
solely
> with the question of resignation of citizenship, not offices.
Formosanus
> resigned not only his citizenship, but specifically and separately
resigned
> all his offices as well. The mere fact that he did both in the same
email
> should have no bearing one way or the other.
>
> The fact is, we have no law regulating the resignation of offices,
and I
> intend to promulgate a lex to cover this omission later this year.
>
> > Furthermore, we have a precedent, as Senator Marcus Octavius
> > Germanicus and others correctly pointed out.
>
> Now this is a different argument, and in the face of a lack of legal
> regulation, I see no reason not to fall back the precident set when
Sulla
> resigned last year, as long as it's understood that that's what is
> happening. Using this approach, I wouldn't object to Formosanus
retaining
> his office.
>
> I also see no reason why an elected office should be treated any
differently
> than an appointed one; I'm not sure what the legal basis for such a
> distinction would be (especially with no law to cover the
situation). Surely
> Pompeia should be reinstated as a full governor immediately as well
(not
> that there's any real difference between acting governor and full
> governor...)?
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>

Salve,

Leges regarding resignation could be helpful, and the plural is no
accedent. I Hold the view that Magistrates are answerable to those
who apointed them. Each of the Comitiae should vote on the Leges that
regulate the Magistrates elected by that Comitia.

As for the Proprators, they answer to the Senate, and no more than a
Consulta is needed to regulate these resignations.

I do agree that Until the Senate decides to pass such a consulta,
that the precedent would also apply to Proprators who resign. If the
Senate wishes to remove them from office at the next meeting for this
resignation, then that is within the Senate's powers, but until the
Senate acts, they retain thier status as a Propraetor.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Questionaire - Romans of the Romans
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 13:13:19 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Jerr--------guston <gaiussentius@--------> wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> I was put to thinking about this the other night, and,
> after thinking about it, I came up with a list of
> people I thought displayed true Roman virtues.
>
> * Emperor Trajan
> * Gnaeus Julius Agricola
> * Gnaeus Domitius Corbulo
> * Emperor Marcus Aurelius
> * Emperor Augustus
> * Gnaeus Marcius Coriolanus
> * Marcus Aemilius Scaurus
> * Cicero
> * Seneca
> * Marcus Atilius Regulus
> * Germanicus Caesar
> * Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
> * Marcus Furius Camillus
> * Quintus Fabius Maximus Cunctator
> * Gaius Popillius Laenas
> * Marcus Junius Brutus
> * Cato the Censor
>
> Any other thoughts or comments on this list, or any
> added suggestions?
>
> Valete bene,
>
> Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura
>
> Legatus Australia Medius
> Sacerdos Mars Invictus

Salve,

Cornelia, Mother of the Grachi would be a welcome addition.

L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Fwd: FW: WEll now - HEADS UP.
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:59:58 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Quinte Fabi,

> >I am who I say I am. For proof I give out my "signet ring seal" my voter
> >registration code DVZ480 Octavious will confirm this is correct.

That was your correct voter code - from before I took over the database.
You have a different one now, assigned in December.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): Kalendas Iunias (June 1st)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 16:02:30 +0100

This is one of the dies nefasti (N), a day on which no legal action or
public business can take place.

This is the Kalends of month Iunius, month of Iuno, month of the young
(iuuenes) in contrast to Maius.

Today a Pontifex Minor calls the people to the Curia Calabra. The Pontifex
Minor and the Rex Sacrorum offer a sacrifice to Iuno where Ianus is also
invoked. Then the Pontifex Minor announces the Nonas of the month for the
fifth day:
"Die Quinti te kalo Iuno Covella"
"Iuno Covella, I call you on the fifth day"
Today, the Regina Sacrorum also sacrifices to Iuno at the Regia.

Today is the aniversary of of the Temple of Iuno Moneta (Iuno The Warner) on
the citadel ('Arx').
Failure to pay attention to the voice of Aius Locutius which came from a
sacred wood (His deification and dedication of an altar at the Via Nova was
later performed in order to expiate the fault), led to the invasion of Rome
by the Gauls in 390 BCE. It was Iuno who by means of her sacred geese saved
the Capitol and Rome from the assault of the Gauls, and as such she became
known as Moneta and her tample built on the Arx. The temple was vowed by M.
Furius Camillus in 345 BC. During the dedication of the temple in 344 BC, a
prodigy takes place. A rain of rocks and the occurence of
night during day force the Senate to name a Dictator to fix the feasts and
suplications needed for expiation.

This is also the aniversary of the dedication of the Temple of Mars built in
388 BCE near the Porta Capena on the Via Appia.

This is also the aniversary of the Temple of the Tempestates (Storms)
dedicated in 259 BCE in the same neighbourhood. This temple was dedicated by
Lucius Cornelius Scipio for the delivery of the Roman fleet from a storm
near Corsica.

This day is also sacred to Carna, and the Pontifices offer sacrifice at her
temple on the Caelian Hill.
On this day people eat beans mixed with hot spelt and bacon fat. The same is
offered to the goddess for the health of the bowels.
The nature of Carna is somewhat mysterious. Ovid [Fasti, VI.101-]identifies
Her with Cardea
(Hinge), goddess of hinges and companion of Ianus. He also tells the story
of Crane, a nymph born at the
grove of Alernus, who offered protection to infants and children against the
terrors of the screech-owl.

Pax Deorum vobiscum

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex

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Subject:	[novaroma] Need some info...
From:	Publius Gramatinicus Albinus <syphax_venaliccii@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:01:35 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete!

I was wondering if someone from the America
Austrorientalis provincia can contact me. I need to
get some information from them, and invite them to
something this coming July. Specifically, I need to
speak to people living in the Louisiana portion of
America Austrorientalis.

Valete!

=====
pax et lux,
Publius Gramatinicus Albinus

AIM: PubliusAlbinus
Yahoo Messenger: syphax_venaliccii
ICQ #: 107949293

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): Kalendas Iunias (June 1st)
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Jun 2001 01:45:25 +1000 (EST)

Salve omnes,

<snip>

"This is also the aniversary of the dedication of the
Temple of Mars built in 388 BCE near the Porta Capena
on the Via Appia."

<snip>

As a sacerdos of Mars, I beleive this day holds some
special importance for him, and I shall offer to him
that he may continue to watch over us all!

Vale bene,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

Legatus Australia Medius
Sacerdos Mars Invictus

--- Antonio Grilo <amg@--------> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
This is one of the dies nefasti (N), a day on which no
legal action or 
public business can take place. 
 
This is the Kalends of month Iunius, month of Iuno,
month of the young 
(iuuenes) in contrast to Maius. 
 
Today a Pontifex Minor calls the people to the Curia
Calabra. The Pontifex 
Minor and the Rex Sacrorum offer a sacrifice to Iuno
where Ianus is also 
invoked. Then the Pontifex Minor announces the Nonas
of the month for the 
fifth day: 
"Die Quinti te kalo Iuno Covella" 
"Iuno Covella, I call you on the fifth
day" 
Today, the Regina Sacrorum also sacrifices to Iuno at
the Regia. 
 
Today is the aniversary of of the Temple of Iuno
Moneta (Iuno The Warner) on 
the citadel ('Arx'). 
Failure to pay attention to the voice of Aius Locutius
which came from a 
sacred wood (His deification and dedication of an
altar at the Via Nova was 
later performed in order to expiate the fault), led to
the invasion of Rome 
by the Gauls in 390 BCE. It was Iuno who by means of
her sacred geese saved 
the Capitol and Rome from the assault of the Gauls,
and as such she became 
known as Moneta and her tample built on the Arx. The
temple was vowed by M. 
Furius Camillus in 345 BC. During the dedication of
the temple in 344 BC, a 
prodigy takes place. A rain of rocks and the occurence
of 
night during day force the Senate to name a Dictator
to fix the feasts and 
suplications needed for expiation. 
 
This is also the aniversary of the dedication of the
Temple of Mars built in 
388 BCE near the Porta Capena on the Via Appia. 
 
This is also the aniversary of the Temple of the
Tempestates (Storms) 
dedicated in 259 BCE in the same neighbourhood. This
temple was dedicated by 
Lucius Cornelius Scipio for the delivery of the Roman
fleet from a storm 
near Corsica. 
 
This day is also sacred to Carna, and the Pontifices
offer sacrifice at her 
temple on the Caelian Hill. 
On this day people eat beans mixed with hot spelt and
bacon fat. The same is 
offered to the goddess for the health of the
bowels. 
The nature of Carna is somewhat mysterious. Ovid
[Fasti, VI.101-]identifies 
Her with Cardea 
(Hinge), goddess of hinges and companion of Ianus. He
also tells the story 
of Crane, a nymph born at the 
grove of Alernus, who offered protection to infants
and children against the 
terrors of the screech-owl. 
 
Pax Deorum vobiscum 
 
Antonius Gryllus Graecus 
Pontifex 
 
</tt>

 



<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	"Quintus Iulius Camillus Caesar" <covertuw@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 13:44:59 -0000

Salvete ~

Up until this time I have been unusually quiet (or at least for me) on
political matters and matters of Nova Roma in general but I thought this was
a subject I should voice my opinion on.

Initially, I thought that Marcus Apollonius' resignation should deny him
return to his office. My feelings were based on my own interpretation of
the Lex and the feeling that Marcus had abandoned the plebs who elected him
(and I am not trying to personally attack anyone here). The idea of
resigning ones citizenship (and/or an elected office), I would believe, is a
weighty decision for on to make. With that decision comes consequences and
usually to the people who have supported the official. Loyalty is a hard
thing to come by in this day and age. An elected official not only should
have the loyalty of his/her supporters but the official needs to be loyal to
them also. I felt that Marcus had broken loyalty with his supporters by
resigning. Thus he should not be allowed to retain his office or at least
be candidate for that office again.

Now it has been several days since this whole mess began. And in that time
my opinion has changed. Marcus should be allowed to retain his office.
First, the Lex is vague enough to allow some interpretation and flexibility.
Second, there is an existing precedent (Sulla's own resignation and
reinstatement) that allows for an elected official to resign but keep
his/her own office until the 9 day period is complete. A precedent cannot
be applied to some and not all. Until the Lex is cleaned up, we must adhere
to precedent, for this how leges are applied in all nations (macro and our
own).

Vale
Q. Iulius Camillus Caesar
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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Questionaire - Romans of the Romans
From:	"Vaughan, Michael ST" <Michael.Vaughan@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:53:29 +0100

G. Sentius Bruttius Sura wrote:
>I was put to thinking about this the other night, and,
>after thinking about it, I came up with a list of
>people I thought displayed true Roman virtues.
[inter alia]
>* Emperor Augustus

Isn't ascribing true Roman virtues to the man who put the republic out of
its final misery a little odd? I mean, the man achieved incredible things,
but he was also incredibly ruthless. Cicero was supposed to be his friend,
after all.

-michael (mainly) E
--
"In the future everything will be decided by me." -- Gaius Julius Caesar
Senatus Populusque Romanus 2754 AUC

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Questionaire - Romans of the Romans
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 12:03:03 -0500 (CDT)

Salve,

> >* Emperor Augustus
>
> Isn't ascribing true Roman virtues to the man who put the republic out of
> its final misery a little odd? I mean, the man achieved incredible things,
> but he was also incredibly ruthless. Cicero was supposed to be his friend,
> after all.

But he had to satisfy Antony, who had a rather large army... and Antony
wanted revenge on Cicero for the depth of his stepfather (allegedly a
member of Catiline's conspiracy).

Cicero's murder was a great loss, and Augustus was at fault for allowing
it, but he may have seen it as an unfortunate necessity.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Questionaire - Romans of the Romans
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 12:11:16 US/Central

Salve Michael

> >* Emperor Augustus
>
> Isn't ascribing true Roman virtues to the man who put the republic out of
> its final misery a little odd? I mean, the man achieved incredible things,
> but he was also incredibly ruthless. Cicero was supposed to be his friend,
> after all.

All of the people mentioned on C Sentius' list were complex figures. Like all
humans, they had their failings and their weaknesses. Despite his short-
comings, which were amazingly few, Augustus was one of history's few examples
of the proverbial benevolent dictator.

Vale
T Labienus Fortunatus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Bad News for Roman Days
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:19:10 -0400

Salvete

Unfortunately, it seems as if the discounted rooms at the Red Roof Inn which
we had reserved won't be able to be used. The individual in charge of the
project has been incommunicado for several weeks, and despite my repeated
efforts to get in touch with her to at least get the room reservation codes
(which I am told she did get), I have been unable to do so, and the hotel is
now full.

I recommend that everyone wishing to stay in a hotel for Roman Days obtain
reservations do so on your own at once. Time is running quite short.

I do not at this time know the impact this will have on our hospitality
suite. More details on that will be available at the Nova Roma table at
Roman Days.

Please accept my apologies for this situation. It is a result of my own poor
judgement in choosing the wrong person to head up the effort.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	[novaroma] Digest No 1448
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:27:21 -0400

Ex domo Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Quiritibus SPD

I'll try to be brief to avoid confusion.

FIRST: DVZ480 is *not* the Code of Praetor Quintus Fabius Maxiumus. So that
post was a hoax and as such is an attempt to 'impersonate' a magistrate.
Very clever to have used an intermediate to mask their identity.

SECOND: With the resignation of citizenship and offices, a citizen may
return, but is offices are forfeit.
"Lex Cornelia et Maria de Civitate Eiuranda" covers "RESIGNATION OF
CITIZENSHIP IN NOVAROMA"
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/edicts0027080.html
(it has yet to be posted under Leges in the TABVLARIVM)

This lex does not address the issue of the resignation of offices. Only
whether someone who submits and withdraws "multiple resignations of
citizenship" may have the Censores post an Edictum against them running for
office in the future.
"If a currently serving magistrate submits and withdraws multiple
resignations of citizenship within the same calendar year, the censores will
have grounds...."

There is nothing in the "Lex Cornelia et Maria de Civitate Eiuranda" about
resignation of offices. Therefore a resignation of an office has no
provision for a "do over" or "take backs".

The reason that the first Edictum now LEX was brought forward was *because*
of actions of magistrates, like the example of Censor Sulla and others,
took! At the time Sulla resigned there was no official way of dealing with
citizens who resigned; however, there was an unofficial period to
reconsider. Sulla did so *within* 1 day! and he apologized for his rash
action.
Nova Roma simply cannot have officials resign at the proverbial 'drop of a
hat'. We need people who will stay in office and do their duty, not hold us
hostage to their whims. They need to consider the consequences of their
actions *before* they resign.
Citizens don't take oaths, magistrates do.

The Lex was designed to protect citizens from themselves.

As for the clause that there will be no penalty in association with a
canceled resignation of citizenship, this prevents citizens from losing
their vote or any other rights *citizens* have through a nota.

As for 'precedence', we just finished holding an election to replace a
vacancy brought about by resignation.

________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 07:58:38 +0200
From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Subject: Re: Fwd: FW: WEll now - HEADS UP.

>I am who I say I am. For proof I give out my "signet ring seal" my voter
>registration code
>DVZ480 Octavious will confirm this is correct. Also I'll need a new one as
>soon as possible since all of Rome now knows it.
>Tribune, it is you that protect the people. I ask that you include the
>above
>in any decision
>the plebes makes.
>Valete
>Q. Fabius Maximus
>Praetor Urbanus
>
>Get this to Fabius as quick as possible
>Thanks
>QFM

Salvete Omnes!

I have been asked to forward this message. I must clearly state that this
brings to me my open admiration of my Pater for this act of Concordia!!! I
also extend my admiration to the messenger, who in this unselfish act gave
his support to this act! I hope I have done the right thing by forwarding
this message.

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest No 1448
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 12:43:21 US/Central

Salvete

> FIRST: DVZ480 is *not* the Code of� Praetor Quintus Fabius Maxiumus. So that
> post was a hoax and as such is an attempt to 'impersonate' a magistrate.

Perhaps we should ask Q Fabius, as he has recently returned from abroad.

> SECOND: With the resignation of citizenship and offices, a citizen may
> return, but is offices are forfeit.

We've had plenty of discussion about this already, and it's been generally
agreed that a) there is no edictum or lex that covers the situation, b)
provincial governors have been treated differently from the ordinarii, and c)
Sulla's return sets a precedent that we must follow until there is an
appropriate lex in place.

> As for 'precedence', we just finished holding an election to replace a
> vacancy brought about by resignation.

The most recent elections were for a rogatorus and a tribunus plebis. To my
knowledge, neither of the ex-cives who left those positions have returned to
Nova Roma.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Questionaire - Romans of the Romans
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 17:57:04 -0000

Salve Gai Senti,

You must be a great student of ancient Rome to even have assembled
such a list. There were several I had to research before I said, "Oh
yeah I remember that guy".

However, I had never read about Gnaeus Marcius Coriolanus. I must
admit, he doesn't seem particularily Roman to me. He opposed giving
grain to starving cives and then led the Volsci against Rome.
Perhaps there is more to the story.

At any rate, thanks for posting the list. I enjoyed reading up on
the entries.

Vale,
Gaius Popillius Laenas

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Subject:	[novaroma] Plebs
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <lespeterson@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:02:07 -0700

Salvete Omnes,

I think recent "resignation" events prove a point I recently made in a post titled Commerce. We need to be more active as Plebeians. If we were organized and active on our own mail list it would be an easy matter for our Tribunes to conduct a straw poll and determine what we wish to be done in the matter of Formosanus.
I for one say until the law is clarified, we must allow him to resume his duties. This would not preclude us from seeking his removal from office if we so choose.

Here is a chance for we Plebeians to unite and issue our voice as one. How many of us have even bothered to subscribe to the http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ComitiaPlebisTributa

I ask our Tribunes to use this opportunity to bring the Plebs together to choose to support or condemn our Aedile.

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Questionaire - Romans of the Romans
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 18:18:51 -0000

Oops, forgot to mention there is one who undeniably belongs on the
list:

Gaius Popillius Laenas

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest No 1448
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:23:44 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Luci Equiti,

> FIRST: DVZ480 is *not* the Code of Praetor Quintus Fabius Maxiumus. So that
> post was a hoax and as such is an attempt to 'impersonate' a magistrate.
> Very clever to have used an intermediate to mask their identity.

I've been in contact with Q. Fabius and believe it to be him.

Upon first seeing that voter code, I checked the database for it and didn't
find it. But then I went to the list of voter codes from before the
December elections and found it there. I am confident that his knowledge
of this code proves his identity.

All voter codes were re-issued in December, and a mass-mailing was then
done, with each citizen's mail customized to include their new voter
code. The codes were recreated so that there could be a distinction
made between patrician (odd) and plebeian (even), so that patricians
could be automatically blocked from voting for Tribune, and also as
a security measure, to ensure that no one other than the Censors
and I had the current list.

Q. Fabius did vote successfully in the December election; but sometime
after that might have lost that mailing and referred back to his
original code.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	[novaroma] Roman Tour 2002 Space still available
From:	"LegionXXIV" <legionXXIV@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:50:58 -0400

Noto! Animus Attentus!!
Attention! Listen closely!!

ROMAN TOUR 2002

Avete milites legionaries et civis ab Roma!
Greetings common soldier and citizen of Rome!

A two week tour of Roman and Celtic sites located in France,
Germany and England is being planned for late July into August 2002.

The tour will depart Dulles Airport near Washington DC on July 26 to
Heathrow and will return from Glasgow to Dulles on August 10th.

Sites to be visited are: Kalriese, site of the 9AD Teutoburger Vald disaster,
Saalburg frontier fort, Caesar's defense line alone the Rhone River,
Celtic theme park near Alesia and Alesia itself, St.Germain Museum of
Celtic and Roman items, time to visit Paris, to England and Chester and
Hadrian's Wall and other Roman era sites.

Peter Connolly will be with us for part of the tour and Charles Wesencraft
will be with us at Hadrian's Wall.

The tour is limited to 48 travelers. The cost is $2,250.00 per person; which
includes airfare from and to Dulles, all overnight accommodations and some
breakfasts.
To confirm your reservation send a refundable deposit of $250.00, to
Robert Garbisch, 224 Masonic Drive, Vallejo, CA 94591-4231
prior to July 1st 2001. 707-557-4188 fireman_bob1@--------

The ground portion of the trip may be purchased (cost not yet known) for those
in Europe or who desire to extend their stay before or after the tour.

Hope to have you with us in 2002?

For Commilito Robert Garbisch, I remain, as always,
(take your pick)

Tuus in Sodalicio Imperium Romanae
Yours in the Comradeship of the Roman Empire

Tuus in Sodalicio Respublica Romanae
Yours in the Comradeship of the Roman Republic

Gallio Velius Marsallas / George Metz
Commander Legion XXIV MA

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 15:34:41 -0400

Salve civis et amicus,

Many civis have expressed that the 9 day period of review after resigning
includes all aspects of the civis positions. If it does our government is
doomed. Let me explain with what I agree with first though.

First off, I agree with a period of review after resigning. Though we MUST
make the lex clear to what it applies to! It is a good thing to review if
you still want to be a civis though the line is drawn there.

What government in any nation in the worlds history lets a person of
political significance resign then come back to power! It is pathetic! By
letting this take place it leaves the government is a constant state of
rebuilding and wreaking. We must put a end to this now! If not I am afraid
our government will never become fully functional off the internet. I cannot
stress this enough, I can't believe some would like it to go on and on! A
senator or some other high official must come forward and clear up the
unclear description of the lex that covers this!

Hinc est mei oratio!

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Canada Orientalis Provincia
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 19:47:28 -0000

Salve Amuli Claudi,

>>By letting this take place it leaves the government is a constant
state of rebuilding and wreaking.<<

GPL: I agree, but that is due to magistrate registrations not
registrations that are recinded before nine days. Constant elections
are also disruptive. I don't see why a magistrate who thinks better
of what was perhaps a rash decision should not be given the same
leaway as an ordinary cive. I certainly can't see how allowing the
nine day period to apply to offices would topple our government. <:(

>>A senator or some other high official must come forward and clear
up the unclear description of the lex that covers this!<<

GPL: I don't believe any Senator of magistrate has such power.
Until the lex is clarified by future legislation, the precedent of
our honored Censor Sulla must stand. M. Apollonis remains a Aedile.

Respectfully.

Vale,
Gaius Popillius Laenas

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	"Matthias Stappert" <3s@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 19:52:17 -0000

Salvete,

--- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...>
wrote:
<snip>

> The mere fact that he did both in the same email (...)

You may. I reviewed his resignation email and must admit: You are
right here. He resigned his office seperately, but in the same email.
I overread this section at the first time, since his resignation mail
was quite long.

> The fact is, we have no law regulating the resignation of offices,
and I
> intend to promulgate a lex to cover this omission later this year.

A lex should be helpful, indeed.

> > Furthermore, we have a precedent, as Senator Marcus Octavius
> > Germanicus and others correctly pointed out.
>
> Now this is a different argument,

It is, of course (..sorry..). It�s always helpful in legal statements
to have one more argument remaining.

> I also see no reason why an elected office should be treated any
differently
> than an appointed one; I'm not sure what the legal basis for such a
> distinction would be (especially with no law to cover the
situation).

We don�t need a law here, we have the Constitution. There are
different legitimations. Elected officials receive their legitimation
directly from the body which elected the official.

The appointed official receives his legitimation indirectly by the
elected magistrate who appoints the offical, or by the Senate
(governors).

The elected officials have a stronger, direct legitimation for their
powers, because of the votes. They are tied to politics. And they are
mostly considered higher-ranked than appointed officials.

Elected officials (Magistrates) can formally only be reinstalled by
the body which elected him. If a Tribunus or Aedilis Plebis resigns,
can only be reinstalled by another vote in the Comitia Plebis Tributa.

Resigned appointed officials need a new appointment by the respective
body or magistrate. This is more simple than another vote in the
respective Comitia.

This, Flavi Vedi Germanice, is the legal basis for distinctions. The
different status of the various offices/officials. We should consider
this again when we talk about a law to cover this cases.

Valete
Caius Flavius Diocletianus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	QFabiusMax@--------
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 15:59:20 EDT

In a message dated 6/1/2001 12:43:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
pkkt@-------- writes:
Amulius Claudius Petrus, Salve
<< What government in any nation in the world's history lets a person of
political significance resign then come back to power! It is pathetic!>>
I'm not sure of your use of Pathos here. Maybe detestable is the word you
are looking for.

>>By letting this take place it leaves the government is a constant state of
rebuilding and wreaking.>>
This could be true, except the position was not a major one to weaken Rome.

>>We must put an end to this now! If not I am afraid our government will
never become fully functional off the internet. I cannot stress this enough,
I can't believe some would like it to go on and on! <<
It won't. The Senate is already buzzing about an SC to put into law to
clarify that. The Consuls could also issue an edictum. The constitution
allows them that power.

It doesn't matter. In the case of M. Apollonius he is allowed back honors
intact due
to a precedent established by L. Cornelius Sulla's resignation. So any Lex
or edictum will deal with future resignations and not our current one.

Vale
Q. Fabius Maximus

Hinc est mei oratio!
Tantae molis erat Romanan condere gentem!

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 16:03:49 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ksterne@-------- [mailto:ksterne@--------]
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 3:47 PM
>
> GPL: I agree, but that is due to magistrate registrations not
> registrations that are recinded before nine days. Constant elections
> are also disruptive. I don't see why a magistrate who thinks better
> of what was perhaps a rash decision should not be given the same
> leaway as an ordinary cive. I certainly can't see how allowing the
> nine day period to apply to offices would topple our government. <:(

I believe that no waiting period should apply to magistrates who resign
their offices; anyone who would make such a "rash decision" should not be
automatically retained in a position of authority. Ordinary citizens are one
thing, but we should expect a higher level of thoughtfulness from our
magistrates. We want dedicated and level-headed magistrates, not ones who
resign positions of authority in a huff, or who change their minds merely
because enough people suck up to them and beg them to stay within a given
period of time (which is perhaps all they were looking for in the first
place). Let the People have a chance to re-elect them if that is their will,
but don't give them an automatic buy-in.

The time for deliberation is before making such a declaration, not
afterwards.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 16:13:36 -0400

Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:

> The time for deliberation is before making such a declaration, not
> afterwards.

That one sentence sums it all up. Consul, seeing that you agree, will this
issue be put forward on the senate? If it is then I feel confident at the
fact that chances are this will not happen again.

Hinc est mei oratio!

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Canada Orientalis Provincia
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 15:21:08 -0500 (CDT)

Salve,

> Elected officials (Magistrates) can formally only be reinstalled by
> the body which elected him. If a Tribunus or Aedilis Plebis resigns,
> can only be reinstalled by another vote in the Comitia Plebis Tributa.

Also, keep in mind that we have a Quaestor who has returned, so we'd
an election in the Comitia Populi Tributa as well.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Questionaire - Romans of the Romans
From:	oppiusflaccus@--------
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 20:37:58 -0000

Salvete Gai Senti et Quiritibus;

An excellent question and most pleasant diversion!
Gratias multas for posting it.

The list looks pretty good so far. My personal additions
to your list -(not in any particular order other than the
first one):

1-Marcus Agrippa. -Bar none, one of my favorite Romans. (Though
some of his offspring were a bit less than perfect :-)

2-Diocletian

3-Probus

4-Iulius Caesar

5-Pliny the Younger

6-Fabius

7-Scipio Africanus

Bene valete,
Oppius
--- In novaroma@--------, Jerr--------guston <gaiussentius@--------> wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> I was put to thinking about this the other night, and,
> after thinking about it, I came up with a list of
> people I thought displayed true Roman virtues.
>
> * Emperor Trajan
> * Gnaeus Julius Agricola
> * Gnaeus Domitius Corbulo
> * Emperor Marcus Aurelius
> * Emperor Augustus
> * Gnaeus Marcius Coriolanus
> * Marcus Aemilius Scaurus
> * Cicero
> * Seneca
> * Marcus Atilius Regulus
> * Germanicus Caesar
> * Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
> * Marcus Furius Camillus
> * Quintus Fabius Maximus Cunctator
> * Gaius Popillius Laenas
> * Marcus Junius Brutus
> * Cato the Censor
>
<snipped>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Changing the Constitution I: Age of Citizenship
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 16:52:45 -0400

Flavius Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.

Way back in February (and doesn't that seem like ancient history already!),
I had brought up the subject of opening up Citizenship to people under 18
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma/message/18518). The idea seemed to
be well-received, and I think it's time to discuss some particulars.
Naturally, this will require amending the Constitution, and that is a
somewhat lengthy process, so I thought it would behoove us to begin the
conversation now. (I'll also be bringing up some other
Constitution-change-requiring items in the next couple of weeks, so we can
think about calling the Comitia Centuriata for a vote sometime this summer.)

The following is a first-draft of some possible changes that would be
necessary in order to open up Citizenship to children. I have used 17 as the
age of maturity, because that is apparently what it was in Roma Antiqua.
That strikes me as a better solution than 16, 18, 21, or other ages that are
derived from macronational laws; this way no macronation is favored and we
stick with the ancient model.

-----

I. This lex is hereby enacted to amend the Constitution of Nova Roma in such
manner as to extend the rights of Citizenship to persons who are not sui
juris in their domicile, and to undertake alterations to Constitutional
mechanisms and institutions appropriate to such a change.

II. Paragraph II.A. of the Constitution is hereby altered to read as
follows:

] A. Citizenship
] 1. Any person 17 years old or older may apply for Citizenship.
] 2. Any person under the age of 17 may, with the written permission
] of their parent or legal guardian according to relevant
] macronational law, apply for Citizenship. Such permission shall
] be filed with the Censors, who shall maintain such records
] until the Citizen reaches the age of 17.
] 3. Citizens' children under the age of 17 may be granted
] Citizenship themselves, upon application for such by their
] parent or legal guardian, as defined by relevant macronational
] law.
] 4. Citizenship is open to anyone regardless of ethnic heritage,
] gender, religious affiliation, or sexual orientation.
] 5. Citizenship may be involuntarily revoked by those means that
] shall be established by law, or may be voluntarily relinquished
] by notification of the censors or by public statement before
] three or more witnesses.
] 6. Citizens under the age of 17 may have their Citizenship
] relinquished on their behalf by their parent or legal guardian,
] as defined by relevant macronational law, by notification of the
] censors or by public statement before three or more witnesses.

III. Paragraph II.B. of the Constitution is hereby altered to read as
follows:

] B. The following rights of the Citizens who have reached the age of
] 17 shall be guaranteed, but this enumeration shall not be taken
] to exclude other rights that citizens may possess:

IV. Paragraph II.D.3. of the Constitution is hereby altered to read as
follows:

] 3. Each gens shall, through whatever means it may determine
] appropriate, have a paterfamilias (fem. materfamilias) who
] shall act as the leader of the gens and speak for it when
] necessary. The holder of this position must be registered
] as such with the censors. The paterfamilias may, at his or
] her discretion, expel members of their gens, or accept new
] members into it.
] 1. The paterfamilias may, at his discretion, exercise the
] rights ennumerated in paragraph II.B. of this Constitution,
] with the exception of the right to vote (paragraph II.B.3.)
] and the right to join the Ordo Equester (paragraph II.B.8.).
] 2. No one under the age of 17 may become paterfamilias of a
] gens.

-----

As always, comments are welcome.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 21:02:06 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@b...> wrote:
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus wrote:
>
> > The time for deliberation is before making such a declaration, not
> > afterwards.
>
>
> That one sentence sums it all up. Consul, seeing that you agree,
will this
> issue be put forward on the senate? If it is then I feel confident
at the
> fact that chances are this will not happen again.
>
>
Salvete,

Any Lex that affects the Status of the Magistrates who have allready
resigned and returned would be an ex post facto law, and there are few
things lower than a retroactive law that turns a legal action at the
time it was performed into an illegal action after the fact. Any lex
that attempted to change the status of Magistrates PRIOR to it's
passage would be a travesty of Justice, and a sad comment on a
Republic that placed Policital Advantage over Right.

The Senate has the power to set whatever regulations it wishes on the
Propraetors apointed by the Senate, and also on any lower officals
apointed by the Propraetors since the ultimate source of the
Propraetors powers is the Senate. Since the Propraetors serve at the
whim of the Senate it does in fact have the power to remove any
Propraetor from office because of a resignation they changed thier
mind about, or to remove them for any other reason.

The elected Magistrates do NOT answer to the Senate, like the
Propraetors do. They answer to the Comitia that elected them. If the
Plebs desire to place stricter restrictions on any FUTURE resignations
by a Plebian Aedile, then that is the Plebs affair, and NOT a concern
of the Senate.

There are few citizens who are more disgusted by the number of
resignations in Nova Roma than I am, However I will NOT allow my
personal feelings about these to lead me into ignoring the laws of
Nova Roma. There is NO vacancy in the Plebian Aedile's office. Prior
to Marcus Apollonius' change of heart I was considering standing for
this office, however if an election is forced on the man whom I
consider the legaly elected Plebian Aedile, I will NOT be a canidate,
nor will I have much respect for anyone who takes part in the
miscarriage of Justice that such an "election" would represent.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Artillery
From:	pvitruviusiulianus@--------
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 21:06:12 -0000

This link might help (it had more than just trebuchets the last time
I checked):

http://www.trebuchet.com/

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Changing the Constitution I: Age of Citizenship
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 16:19:49 -0500

Salve Consul Vedi

I like this very much. I do, however, have one problem.

> ] 1. The paterfamilias may, at his discretion, exercise the
> ] rights ennumerated in paragraph II.B. of this
> ] Constitution, with the exception of the right to vote
> ] (paragraph II.B.3.) and the right to join the Ordo
> ] Equester (paragraph II.B.8.).

So, under this amendment, patresfamilias can't vote or join the Ordo
Equester? Or did you mean that patresfamilias can exercise all but
those two rights on behalf of their underage gentiles?

Vale
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Ipsa scientia potestas est."
-Francis Bacon

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Subject:	[novaroma] June 19 tv show
From:	"Sean Sheridan Richards" <legioix@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 22:30:41 -0000

Avete,

June 19, 10pm "Battle Gear", on the History Channel, featuring ( well, sort of) a few
soldiers of Legio IX Hispana,

Salvete
Hibernicus
Centurio, LEG IX HSPA

ps. pardon any redundant postings!

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Subject:	[novaroma] JUNE 19 TV show
From:	Sean Richards <legioix@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 15:19:23 -0700

Avete,

June 19, 10pm "Battle Gear", on the History Channel, featuring ( well,
sort of) a few soldiers of Legio IX Hispana,

Salvete
Hibernicus
Centurio, LEG IX HSPA

ps. pardon any redundant postings!

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 15:48:31 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes.

I have been following the discussion about whether Formosanus should be
allowed to come back to office after his resignation.

I think it has been made clear that no Lex handles this item properly.
I guess that a new lex should be issued to handle it.

However, no new lex will have jurisdicton over an action previous to
its issuing. I think we should follow precedents in this case, and
those clearly indicate that Formosanus should be readmitted to his
previous office, and that the propraetor of Gallia, I. Querius
Armoricus, should receive the same treatment.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Changing the Constitution I: Age of Citizenship
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 01 Jun 2001 22:52:14 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...> wrote:
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.
>
> Way back in February (and doesn't that seem like ancient history
already!),
> I had brought up the subject of opening up Citizenship to people
under 18
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma/message/18518). The idea
seemed to
> be well-received, and I think it's time to discuss some particulars.
> Naturally, this will require amending the Constitution, and that is a
> somewhat lengthy process, so I thought it would behoove us to begin the
> conversation now. (I'll also be bringing up some other
> Constitution-change-requiring items in the next couple of weeks, so
we can
> think about calling the Comitia Centuriata for a vote sometime this
summer.)
>
> The following is a first-draft of some possible changes that would be
> necessary in order to open up Citizenship to children. I have used
17 as the
> age of maturity, because that is apparently what it was in Roma Antiqua.
> That strikes me as a better solution than 16, 18, 21, or other ages
that are
> derived from macronational laws; this way no macronation is favored
and we
> stick with the ancient model.
>
> -----

Allthough I'm happy to see Nova Roma using a traditional age to
determine the age of Majority within Nova Roma, I fear we can't
tottally abandon the old Sui Iuris standards due to Macro National
laws. We may give a 17 year old full rights under Nova Roman Law, but
some Macro Nations may still view this person as a Minor, and allowing
a "minor" to obtain citizenship without the permission of a parent
could expose Nova Roma to Macro National Legal problems.

As little as I like it, we will still have to require that people who
aren't Sui Juris in thier Macro Nation obtain permission to become
citizens, even if they will be considered an adult once they do become
citizens. This will mainly affect 17 year olds.

Also in the case of children who become citizens prior to age 17, we
will need a seperate permission that allows them to change thier
status from a minor to an adult, and the Censors will have to keep
these records until the citizen is Sui Iuris in thier Macro Nation,
not just Sui Iuris in Nova Roma.

LSD

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	QFabiusMax@--------
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 19:23:50 EDT

In a message dated 6/1/2001 3:50:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
salixastur@-------- writes:

<< However, no new lex will have jurisdicton over an action previous to
its issuing. I think we should follow precedents in this case, and
those clearly indicate that Formosanus should be readmitted to his
previous office, and that the propraetor of Gallia, I. Querius
Armoricus, should receive the same treatment.<<
Gnaeus Salix Astur, Salve
We have two differences here. Marcus Apollonius Formosanus as a Plebeian
Aedile
and Lucius Cornelius Sulla as a Censor were elected by assemblies of the
people.
I. Querius Armoricus, Provincial Praetor of Gaul was appointed by the Senate
under my consulship.
Therefore Sullan Precedent does not apply. The Senate will have to reinstate
him, since he serves at their pleasure. For the time being he can be
considered pro tem until the Senate reconfirms his appointment or put another
in his place. We must stay consistent.
Vale
Q. Fabius Maximus

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