Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Resignation Reconsidered
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 17:34:53 -0700 (PDT)

Salve, Quinte Fabi Maxime.

--- QFabiusMax@-------- wrote:

<<snipped>>

> I. Querius Armoricus, Provincial Praetor of Gaul was appointed by
> the Senate
> under my consulship.
> Therefore Sullan Precedent does not apply. The Senate will have to
> reinstate
> him, since he serves at their pleasure. For the time being he can be
>
> considered pro tem until the Senate reconfirms his appointment or put
> another
> in his place. We must stay consistent.

After some consideration, I have to agree. After all, a propraetor is
appointed by the Senate, and the Senate has the power to revoke this
appointment at any time.

I want to congratulate you, Q. Fabi, and everyone else, on the
civilized manner in which this discussion is taking place. I hope this
will become a common denominator in every political discussion.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	[novaroma] ROMAN DAYS---HOTELS FOR YOU
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 22:51:06 EDT

Salvete,

If your reservation has fallen through...try calling these. They are
all within a few miles of Marietta Mansion.

DAYS INN
9023 Annapolis Road
Lanham Seabrook, Maryland
301-459-6600

BEST WESTERN
5910 Princess Garden Parkway
Lanham Seabrook, MD
301-459-1000

RAMADA INN
8500 Annapolis Road
New Carollton, MD
301-459-6700

HOLIDAY INN
7200 Hanover Drive
Greenbelt, Md
301-982-7000

HAMPTON INN
15202 Major Lansdale Blvd.
Bowie, MD
301-809-1800

COURTYARD BY MARRIOTT
8330 Corporate Drive
Landover, Md
301-577-3373

HOWARD JOHNSON
5811 Annapolis Rd.
Cheverly, MD
301-779-7700

If you have no luck with any of these, email me and we'll find something.

Gaius Cassius Nerva

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Subject:	[novaroma] ROMAN DAYS---TRANSPORTATION
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 22:55:13 EDT

If anyone is FLYING into BWI or Reagan Washington National Airport, email me
and I will look into airport shuttles for you. In this area shuttles average
around 20-25 dollars.

And....if you are flying in the NIGHT BEFORE, {Friday, June 8} email me and
perhaps I can pick you up and get you to your hotel.

Also...would people DRIVING in be willing to give rides to/from Roman Days to
people who may be at hotels and who have no car? If so, email me, and we can
get people paired up.

Gaius Cassius Nerva

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Questionaire - Romans of the Romans
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Jun 2001 15:18:07 +1000 (EST)

Salve,

Hhhmmmm....I don't know if you can say that Cicero was
his friend. In fact one of the quotes of Cicero about
Augustus reads: "praise him, honor him....and then get
rid of him!" Doesn't sound like any friend I'd like to
have!;-)

Vale bene,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

Legatus Australia Medius
Sacerdos Mars Invictus

--- "Vaughan, Michael ST"
<Michael.Vaughan@--------> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
G. Sentius Bruttius Sura wrote: 
>I was put to thinking about this the other night,
and, 
>after thinking about it, I came up with a list
of 
>people I thought displayed true Roman virtues. 
[inter alia] 
>* Emperor Augustus 
 
Isn't ascribing true Roman virtues to the man who put
the republic out of 
its final misery a little odd? I mean, the man
achieved incredible things, 
but he was also incredibly ruthless. Cicero was
supposed to be his friend, 
after all. 
 
-michael (mainly) E 
-- 
"In the future everything will be decided by
me." -- Gaius Julius Caesar 
Senatus Populusque Romanus 2754 AUC 
 
 
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Subject:	[novaroma] Quintus Sertorius -Updated Status
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 23:20:39 -0700

Salvete Quiritibus;

I humbly come before you this evening to relay a message
from Tribune Quintus Sertorius. I've have received the very
good news that he has now completed the arrangements and
taken care of personal business related to the recent death
in his family -and is now catching up with e-mail and some
of his other obligations for Nova Roma. He expects to be
caught up in several days.

Please join me in giving him a hearty welcome back and
I look forward to hearing more from you soon mi Quinte!

(fyi -his mail backlog is currently running over 2000
messages so if you do mail him directly, it may take
a few days for him to respond.)

Bene valete in Pace Deorum,
Oppius

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Subject:	[novaroma] Questionnaire -Romans that have gotten a bad rap from history
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 1 Jun 2001 23:43:50 -0700

Salvete Quiritibus;

Following up on the excellent thread started by Gaius Sentius,
I wanted to ask the same type of question, but with a slightly
different spin. I've always been fascinated with the historical
records of great (and not so great,) Roman personages. In my
travels through the history books, there have always been a few
that were documented as 'really bad' in some ways, but also had
some good points as well.

With that in mind, I'll advance my own list in hopes of seeing
some names from the rest of you; especially from those more
scholarly than I. (Which should be a great many of you.) Now,
please note that in this list -these Romans were by no means
perfect and in many cases could not be called overtly 'virtuous,'
but nevertheless in my book they did some good things and had
some benefit for Roma and/or were in some ways unfairly documented
by the ancient historians. In some cases, as with Domitian;
it has been fairly recent evidence that has exonerated them..
at least partially <g> Without further ado, my starting
list....(please feel free to add to it; or tell me why I'm
off my nut for suggesting such people)-

*Domitian
*Sulla
*Pertinax
*Tiberius
*Aurelian
*Tarquinius Superbus
*Gallienus

Bene valete,
Oppius

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Changing the Constitution I: Age of Citizenship
From:	"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 02 Jun 2001 09:00:43 +0200

Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:

> Allthough I'm happy to see Nova Roma using a traditional age to
> determine the age of Majority within Nova Roma, I fear we can't
> tottally abandon the old Sui Iuris standards due to Macro National
> laws. We may give a 17 year old full rights under Nova Roman Law, but
> some Macro Nations may still view this person as a Minor, and allowing
> a "minor" to obtain citizenship without the permission of a parent
> could expose Nova Roma to Macro National Legal problems.

Ok, then we have a big problem. Because I know some countries that don't allow their citizen

to have a double citizenship. Hey, really bad thing isn't it?

Salvete,

Ferriculus

--
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
Friburgii Helvetiorum

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Questionaire - Romans of the Romans
From:	bcatfd@--------
Date:	Sat, 02 Jun 2001 06:59:18 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Jerr--------guston <gaiussentius@--------> wrote:
> Salvete omnes,
>
> I was put to thinking about this the other night, and,
> after thinking about it, I came up with a list of
> people I thought displayed true Roman virtues.
>
> * Emperor Trajan
> * Gnaeus Julius Agricola
> * Gnaeus Domitius Corbulo
> * Emperor Marcus Aurelius
> * Emperor Augustus
> * Gnaeus Marcius Coriolanus
> * Marcus Aemilius Scaurus
> * Cicero
> * Seneca
> * Marcus Atilius Regulus
> * Germanicus Caesar
> * Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
> * Marcus Furius Camillus
> * Quintus Fabius Maximus Cunctator
> * Gaius Popillius Laenas
> * Marcus Junius Brutus
> * Cato the Censor

I am pleased to see Marcus Iunius Brutus on your list. I would add
Lucius Iunius Brutus, the Emperor Julian and Quintus Aurelius
Symmachus.

Vale,

Decius Iunius Palladius

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Changing the Constitution I: Age of Citizenship
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 02 Jun 2001 08:41:32 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "G. Noviodunus Ferriculus"
<Ga--------Nov--------nus@--------> wrote:
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:
>
> > Allthough I'm happy to see Nova Roma using a traditional age to
> > determine the age of Majority within Nova Roma, I fear we can't
> > tottally abandon the old Sui Iuris standards due to Macro National
> > laws. We may give a 17 year old full rights under Nova Roman Law, but
> > some Macro Nations may still view this person as a Minor, and allowing
> > a "minor" to obtain citizenship without the permission of a parent
> > could expose Nova Roma to Macro National Legal problems.
>
> Ok, then we have a big problem. Because I know some countries that
don't allow their citizen
>
> to have a double citizenship. Hey, really bad thing isn't it?
>
Salve

As long as they consider Nova Roma to be a private organization it's
no problem. After we get our Forum, if any of these countries
recognize Nova Roma then we may indeed have to face a problem of some
Nova Romans having to choose berween thier Macro and thier Roman
Citizenship. However that problem is years away.

Vale
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Quintus Sertorius - Updated Status
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Jun 2001 08:14:58 -0400

Salve Oppi Flacce: Thankyou for the information on Quintus Sertorius, it is much appreciated. I have been wondering how he is. I think that with such a backlog of E-mail, that I will not send him any at this time, but will wait until he has cleaned up all the E-mail has has now, and is able to relax a bit. I don't wish to burden him any more than he is already.
When he is back with us and ready to get involved with us once more, I will be sure to send him a warm welcome back message. Vale, Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, ... Rogator Novae Romae
Procurator Provincia Canada Orientalis

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Subject:	[novaroma] Comments
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Jun 2001 15:52:42 +0200

Salvete Quirites,

First off, my congratulations to anyone who contributed to the constructive atmosphere of late, and especially Praetor Maximus. Laudatus sis!

Secondly, on the topic of whether Formosanus should be readmitted in his office or not, I think the answer is quite simple: if one rescinds his or her resignation during the nine day period, it, legally spoken, never existed. Thus, he is still an Aedilis. Even if you prefer another interpretation there is still the precedent. And I don't think this should be legislated. A virus here in NR keeps this ball rolling; an immediate problem is seen, and the immediate solution would be legislation? I think not. How about a simple custom?

Lastly, I applaud Consul Vedius' efforts on amending the constitution in favour of younger citizens. I'm all for it (with Fortunatus' suggestion implemented, it would make a great plan).

Valete bene!
Draco

"Jeder f�r sich, und Gott gegen allen."

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Subject:	[novaroma] Good News for Roman Days
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:43:34 -0400

Salvete

For those attending Roman Days, it turns out that you will be able to get
rooms at the Red Roof Inn in Lanham, MD (301-731-8830) at the discounted
rate. Simply call the hotel and say you're with Roman Days, and they should
be able to accomodate you (the rooms are reserved under the name Gilroy, if
they ask). There are not an unlimited number of rooms available, however; 16
were originally reserved and I don't know how many have already been taken.
I do know that rooms are still available, though.

My heartfelt thanks to Merlynia Ambrosia Artori for doing the leg work and
straightening things out with the hotel.

Also, those who are planning on attending Merlynia's Roman feast on Saturday
night, please let her (merlinia@--------) or myself
(germanicus@--------) know. She needs to know as soon as possible how
many people she should be cooking for.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Changing the Constitution I: Age of Citizenship
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:54:54 EDT

Salve,

Not until the other country grants Nova Roma recognition as a legitimate
nation do we have a problem. I think that will be a long way off.

I am a citizen of two countries neither of which recognizes dual
citizenship. One of them reframes it as "dual nationality" and the
officials of the other to whom I spoke said they prefer not to address it
unless I move back there.

It is probably legally relevant that none of us *resides* in Nova Roma.

However there may be some countries (the PRC comes to mind) who might
well prosecute Nova Romans among their citizenry, on the basis of
disloyalty or conspiracy against that government. That's something that
could happen now, requiring only that (1) Nova Roma comes to the
attention of those in power, (2) they need some issue to divert public
attention, and (3) the officials in power are stupid enough to try to
make such a case.

Some of those requirements exist now in most countries, I'm sure. I won't
name any names.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

On 6/2/01 2:00 AM G. Noviodunus Ferriculus (Gaius.Noviodunus@--------)
wrote:

>Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:
>
>> Allthough I'm happy to see Nova Roma using a traditional age to
>> determine the age of Majority within Nova Roma, I fear we can't
>> tottally abandon the old Sui Iuris standards due to Macro National
>> laws. We may give a 17 year old full rights under Nova Roman Law, but
>> some Macro Nations may still view this person as a Minor, and allowing
>> a "minor" to obtain citizenship without the permission of a parent
>> could expose Nova Roma to Macro National Legal problems.
>
>Ok, then we have a big problem. Because I know some countries that don't
>allow their citizen
>
>to have a double citizenship. Hey, really bad thing isn't it?
>
>
>Salvete,
>
>Ferriculus
>
>--
>Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
>Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
>Friburgii Helvetiorum
>

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Changing the Constitution I: Age of Citizenship
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:54:53 EDT

Salve Falvius Vedius

Not to be a nitpicker, but how can the Censores confidently verify that
"written permission" from the applicant's parents is genuine? Teenagers
(and others) regularly falsify such permissions in other situations. If a
Censor receives a letter from Vladivostok, purporting to allow Ivan
Ivanovitch Popov to join Nova Roma, how will he/she verify that Ivan's
parents actually sent it and not clever little Ivan himself?

This is a small matter, but if it comes into question in a legal
situation where we are accused of having enticed little Ivan Ivanovitch
into the paganism that "caused" him to brutalize someone's grandmother
back in Vladivostok, it will certainly be a matter of some inconvenience
for Nova Roma.

Of course the same publicity could occur if Ivan were 18 or 21 when he
joined, and if his macronation requires that he be 21 to be considered in
charge of his life, we could still be accused of Internet child
corruption or whatever. Perhaps the lex and the Constitution should say
that we require parental permission for anyone who has not attained the
age of majority in the jurisdiction in which they reside (which would
mean that Censores would have to find out what the age of majority in
Russia is, presumeably with the help of the proraetor).

As to verification, perhaps we could stipulate that the permission
document be notarized or be attested by a public official on official
letterhead?

Or maybe it's just not possible for us to be safe anyway. Do we really
"know" that anyone here is old enough to be here?

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Changing the Constitution I: Age of Citizenship
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:53:22 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fortunatus [mailto:labienus@--------]
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 5:20 PM
>
> Salve Consul Vedi
>
> I like this very much. I do, however, have one problem.
>
> > ] 1. The paterfamilias may, at his discretion, exercise the
> > ] rights ennumerated in paragraph II.B. of this
> > ] Constitution, with the exception of the right to vote
> > ] (paragraph II.B.3.) and the right to join the Ordo
> > ] Equester (paragraph II.B.8.).
>
> So, under this amendment, patresfamilias can't vote or join the Ordo
> Equester? Or did you mean that patresfamilias can exercise all but
> those two rights on behalf of their underage gentiles?

Oops! You're right. It should read "The paterfamilias may, at his
discretion, exercise the rights ennumerated in paragraph II.B. of this
Constitution on behalf of those citizens in his gens who are under the age
of 17..."

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Changing the Constitution I: Age of ...
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Jun 2001 13:11:32 -0400

Salvete Omnes: Well... let's see now. My thirteen year old has applied for citizenship with my permission and paternal blessing. How are we to prove that I have given him my permission, and that it is not really him that sent E-mails to the Censors. Perhaps it is him that is even typing this very post. I think there are many people here that know who I am and recognize my style. Having been a citizen of Nova Roma for three years, run in a couple of elections, winning and filling the office of Rogator, (which we have had trouble keeping people in, in the past.) I think we could safely say that my son really and honestly has my blessing in this matter.
However, for many others, there may be, simply because we may not be familiar with the citizen and children in question. With these, perhaps we could ask that they mail some kind of verification to the Censors. I am sure that we can come up with some sort of solution along those lines. If they are really serious about joining, it wouldn't be to much of an imposition.
Valete omnes: Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, Rogator Novae Romae
Procurator Provincia Canada Orientalis

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Changing the Constitution I: Age of ...
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 02 Jun 2001 22:00:29 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "A. Cato" <a.cato@s...> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes: Well... let's see now. My thirteen year old has
applied for citizenship with my permission and paternal blessing. How
are we to prove that I have given him my permission, and that it is
not really him that sent E-mails to the Censors. Perhaps it is him
that is even typing this very post. I think there are many people here
that know who I am and recognize my style. Having been a citizen of
Nova Roma for three years, run in a couple of elections, winning and
filling the office of Rogator, (which we have had trouble keeping
people in, in the past.) I think we could safely say that my son
really and honestly has my blessing in this matter.
> However, for many others, there may be, simply because we may
not be familiar with the citizen and children in question. With these,
perhaps we could ask that they mail some kind of verification to the
Censors. I am sure that we can come up with some sort of solution
along those lines. If they are really serious about joining, it
wouldn't be to much of an imposition.
> Valete omnes: Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, Rogator Novae
Romae
>
Procurator Provincia Canada Orientalis
>
Salvete

As Far as Citizens who wish to approve thier Minor Children's
applications goes, couldn't we just use the voter code as ID?

I'm not worried too much about the Children of Citizens. It's Minors
whose parents aren't citizens that I'm most concerned with. A Citizen
is unlikely to be upset that thier child joined Nova Roma. A
Fundementalist Christian could get very upset at Nova Roma if we
allowed thier 16 or 17 year old daughter to join a Pagan Organization,
and this could result in a lawsuit.

I assure you that if a case like this were tried in most areas in my
Provincia (America Austrorientalis) The Jury would only hear
"Christian Girl led astray by Pagans" and would nail us, hard. This
area of the USA isn't called the Bible Belt for the heck of it.

I am not fond of extra paper work it would cause the Censors, but we
have to get some form of verifiable permission from the parents of any
new citizen who isn't Sui Iuris in thier Macro Nation, For the USA
this includes the 17 year old full citizen as well as the 10 year old
minor.

Vale
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Good News for Roman Days
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Sat, 2 Jun 2001 14:34:42 EDT

Great news Consul!

And in the case of anyone flying in, my offer for help with transport from
ther airport to your hotel still stands. Just email.

Nerva

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Subject:	[novaroma] Minors in NR
From:	"Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa" <vipsaniusagrippa@-------->
Date:	Sat, 02 Jun 2001 16:36:13 -0600

Salve

One solution might be to create provincial censors whose job it would be to
inspect all applications and verify the identity of the applicant. This
would take some of the workload off the overworked central admin's censors.

Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa
Cives Canada Occidetalis
Cornicularius of Propraetor Q. Sertorius
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Subject:	[novaroma] Citizenship Application Verifications (was Minors in NR)
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Jun 2001 16:48:51 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes.

--- Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa <vipsaniusagrippa@--------> wrote:
> Salve
>
> One solution might be to create provincial censors whose job it would
> be to
> inspect all applications and verify the identity of the applicant.
> This
> would take some of the workload off the overworked central admin's
> censors.

We discussed a few weeks ago that a system should be implemented to
verify the information written on citizenship applications.

I see this "Minor Citizens Verification Issue" as just a part of that
previous issue. If we verify an applicant's identity, we would be
verifying his/her age as well.

Some suggestions were made on that discussion, including snail mail
applications, ID requirements, and so on. I think that dividing the
workload between the censores and provincial governments would be the
best way to handle this issue.

I understand that some citizens are contrary to including provincial
governments in this process, due to some unfortunate experiences in the
past. I think that local officials would prove more efficient in this
task, because of their close contact with the applicant's background,
and it would be easier for them to check the information included in
the application. I think that the censores should closely control the
whole process, requiring provincial officials to provide constant
reports; but I think that leaving the whole work to the censores would
soon prove to be impractical, simply due to the amount of it and the
lack of local lore.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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