Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Changing the Constitution I: Age o..........
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Jun 2001 20:24:52 -0400

Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:

>I'm not worried too much about the Children of Citizens. It's Minors
> whose parents aren't citizens that I'm most concerned with. A Citizen
> is unlikely to be upset that thier child joined Nova Roma. A
> Fundementalist Christian could get very upset at Nova Roma if we
> allowed thier 16 or 17 year old daughter to join a Pagan Organization,
> and this could result in a lawsuit.

Cato responds:
Yes Luci Sicini, I understand what you are saying, and I agree. It was L. Sergius who brought up the possibility of minors impersonating their parents in order to gain citizenship. It was his post that I was replying to. I agree that we could get ouselves into trouble with Fundamentalist Christians. Also with Orthodox Jewish and Islamic parents as well. We have our share of those up here in Canada as well. I have nothing against them and know a few as friends. We respect each others beliefs pretty good in our neighborhood. It's my fundamentalist Christian relatives I would have the most problems with if I tried to push Greco-Roman Paganism on them. So I avoid the topic. It's not worth the trouble that would result. They know where I stand as well, and no longer bother me about being saved and "born again". As long as they respect my beliefs, I'll respect theirs.

Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:
> I assure you that if a case like this were tried in most areas in my
> Provincia (America Austrorientalis) The Jury would only hear
> "Christian Girl led astray by Pagans" and would nail us, hard. This
> area of the USA isn't called the Bible Belt for the heck of it

Cato responds:
Ah yes, Luci Sicini. The same would happen up here in southern Ontario, Canada. Having spent a great deal of time over the years down in the southern U.S. Bible Belt, I know what you mean. It is very similar in that respect to our own "Bible Belt" here in Ontario Canada, that sort of covers a swath of Ontario that is primarily farming country dotted with small towns and a few little citys. We don't hear a lot about our Bible Belt up here, but now and again there are references to it in the media. Our Bible Belt like yous, is full of Fundamentalist Christians, many of them with ties to Christian organizations in the southern U.S. Organizations like Pat Robertson's 700 Club and others. A certain fellow in Lynchburg also comes to mind. Your Southern Bible Belt is much bigger, and better known of course, then ours. I personally don't have anything against them. A few of my relatives are fundamentalist Christians. I just avoid getting into debates with them, or the battle would never end.
Ave atque vale, ... A. Cato ... Rogator
Procurator Provincia Canada Orientalis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Oath of Office
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Jun 2001 22:00:40 -0400

Oath of Office for Procurator of Provincia Canada Orientalis
Taken this year 2754 AUC, in the Consulship of Flavius Vedius Germanicus and Marcus Cassius Julianus

I, Robert Charles Marcellus Williamson / Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to always act in the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Robert Charles Marcellus Williamson / Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Robert Charles Marcellus Williamson / Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma, and swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Robert Charles Marcellus Williamson / Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, further swear to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Procurator of the Provincia Canada Orientalis to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the position of Procurator of the Provincia Canada Orientalis, and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

****End of Oath of Office****

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Changing the Constitution I: Age o..........
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Jun 2001 02:07:10 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "A. Cato" <a.cato@s...> wrote:

SNIP

> Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:
> > I assure you that if a case like this were tried in most areas in my
> > Provincia (America Austrorientalis) The Jury would only hear
> > "Christian Girl led astray by Pagans" and would nail us, hard. This
> > area of the USA isn't called the Bible Belt for the heck of it
>
> Cato responds:
> Ah yes, Luci Sicini. The same would happen up here in
southern Ontario, Canada. Having spent a great deal of time over the
years down in the southern U.S. Bible Belt, I know what you mean. It
is very similar in that respect to our own "Bible Belt" here in
Ontario Canada, that sort of covers a swath of Ontario that is
primarily farming country dotted with small towns and a few little
citys. We don't hear a lot about our Bible Belt up here, but now and
again there are references to it in the media. Our Bible Belt like
yous, is full of Fundamentalist Christians, many of them with ties to
Christian organizations in the southern U.S. Organizations like Pat
Robertson's 700 Club and others. A certain fellow in Lynchburg also
comes to mind. Your Southern Bible Belt is much bigger, and better
known of course, then ours. I personally don't have anything against
them. A few of my relatives are fundamentalist Christians. I just
avoid getting into debates with them, or the battle would never end.
> Ave atque vale, ... A. Cato ... Rogator
> Procurator Provincia
Canada Orientalis
>
Salve,

I used my Provincia as an example because I'm most familar with it,
But I'm certain that ALL the North American Provinciae have at least
some areas where it would be impossible for Nova Roma to win a law
suit like this, and it wouldn't surprise me to find out that some of
the Provinciae outside Of North America have areas where any case that
bought up Christian Vs Pagan would result in Nova Roma losing.

I'm not sure that using the Term Pagan is a good idea. The word has a
long history of Negative associations. It was pinned on the worshipers
of the Gods by the Christians. Pagani originally ment country people,
and in antiquita those who lived in the cities looked down on country
dwellers, so in many cases Pagani could be translated as "Hillbillys",
and it was applied to us brcause the "hillbillys" continued to worship
the Gods after the Cities converted to Christanity. It was ment to be
a demeaning insulting term, and many Christians still look at it this
way some 1600 years later.

Vale
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Citizenship Application Verifications (was Minors in NR)
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Jun 2001 03:22:30 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> wrote:
> Salvete omnes.

SNIP

> I see this "Minor Citizens Verification Issue" as just a part of that
> previous issue. If we verify an applicant's identity, we would be
> verifying his/her age as well.
>
> Some suggestions were made on that discussion, including snail mail
> applications, ID requirements, and so on. I think that dividing the
> workload between the censores and provincial governments would be the
> best way to handle this issue.
>
> I understand that some citizens are contrary to including provincial
> governments in this process, due to some unfortunate experiences in the
> past. I think that local officials would prove more efficient in this
> task, because of their close contact with the applicant's background,
> and it would be easier for them to check the information included in
> the application. I think that the censores should closely control the
> whole process, requiring provincial officials to provide constant
> reports; but I think that leaving the whole work to the censores would
> soon prove to be impractical, simply due to the amount of it and the
> lack of local lore.
>
>
>
> =====
> Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
> Gnaeus Salix Astur.
> Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

Salvete Quirites,

After the recent events in Britannia I see little chance of the
Provinciae getting access to the sensitive personal information that
the Censors office has.

So would it be possible for the Censors to apoint a Scriba from each
Provincia who would answer directly to the Censors, not the
Propraetors. These Scribae could handle much of the verification
process and forward the information to the Censors office for final
action. Local Scribae would be more familar with local laws in thier
provincia than the Censors.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Roaming Days
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Jun 2001 04:25:15 -0000

Salvete Quirites,

Roman Days does give some of our citizens a chance to meet each other,
but I would like to see another big event each year. One that isn't
allways held at the same place, a Roaming Days, if you will excuse the
pun.

What I thinking of is a Nova Roma Sponsered event, that would be held
in a different Provincia in North America each year. Each Province
would take turns hosting this Roman Festival. Perhaps the Citizens in
Europe would like to set up a Euro Roman Festival in the same manner,
also with Nova Roma sponsering it.

It should happen at the same time each year and Summer would be the
best time for citizens who have children. Perhaps we could schedule it
to coincide with some of the historic games like the Lvdi Apollinares
in July. The Provincia that will host the Festival should be announced
at least a year in advance so citizens could make thier travel and
vacation plans.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Changing the Constitution I: Age of ...
From:	bcatfd@--------
Date:	Sun, 03 Jun 2001 05:22:46 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> wrote:
> --- In novaroma@--------, "A. Cato" <a.cato@s...> wrote:
> > Salvete Omnes: Well... let's see now. My thirteen year old has
> Salvete

Salve,

> As Far as Citizens who wish to approve thier Minor Children's
> applications goes, couldn't we just use the voter code as ID?
>
> I'm not worried too much about the Children of Citizens. It's Minors
> whose parents aren't citizens that I'm most concerned with. A
Citizen
> is unlikely to be upset that thier child joined Nova Roma. A
> Fundementalist Christian could get very upset at Nova Roma if we
> allowed thier 16 or 17 year old daughter to join a Pagan
Organization,
> and this could result in a lawsuit.
>
> I assure you that if a case like this were tried in most areas in my
> Provincia (America Austrorientalis) The Jury would only hear
> "Christian Girl led astray by Pagans" and would nail us, hard. This
> area of the USA isn't called the Bible Belt for the heck of it.
>
> I am not fond of extra paper work it would cause the Censors, but we
> have to get some form of verifiable permission from the parents of
any
> new citizen who isn't Sui Iuris in thier Macro Nation, For the USA
> this includes the 17 year old full citizen as well as the 10 year
old
> minor.

A very good point. While I am generally opposed to this law (there is
not a compelling need for it and it can open a potential can of worms
by putting us into conflict with macronational law), perhaps a
good compromise would be that minor children of Nova Roma citizens
could become citizens while still minors. If one is 17 and his or her
parents are citizens, then that 17 year old can join as a citizen. If
one's parents aren't citizens, then that person must wait until he is
18. That way there is no possibly of running afoul of parents of
minors and of macronational law. I too can see the headline "pagan
group recruits minors."

Still, the Catholic Church and other religious organizations don't
have an 18 year old limit. They confirm people at a much earlier age
so there is a precedent since we are a religious organization as
well. I don't believe they confim the children of non-Catholics until
they are of age though, or certainly not without the parents'
permission. I think in our case allowing only minor children of
citizens to become full citizens is a reasonable safeguard. This also
nicely sidesteps the tricky question of when someone is sui iuris
macronationally.

We have to keep in mind that we are not like other orgnizations and I
believe have to tread more carefully around some issues.

Vale,

Decius Iunius Palladius,
Senator Consularis

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Changing the Constitution I: Age of ...
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Jun 2001 06:19:25 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, bcatfd@t... wrote:
> --- In novaroma@--------, "Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> wrote:
> > --- In novaroma@--------, "A. Cato" <a.cato@s...> wrote:
> > > Salvete Omnes: Well... let's see now. My thirteen year old has
> > Salvete
>
> Salve,
>
>
> > As Far as Citizens who wish to approve thier Minor Children's
> > applications goes, couldn't we just use the voter code as ID?
> >
> > I'm not worried too much about the Children of Citizens. It's Minors
> > whose parents aren't citizens that I'm most concerned with. A
> Citizen
> > is unlikely to be upset that thier child joined Nova Roma. A
> > Fundementalist Christian could get very upset at Nova Roma if we
> > allowed thier 16 or 17 year old daughter to join a Pagan
> Organization,
> > and this could result in a lawsuit.
> >
> > I assure you that if a case like this were tried in most areas in my
> > Provincia (America Austrorientalis) The Jury would only hear
> > "Christian Girl led astray by Pagans" and would nail us, hard. This
> > area of the USA isn't called the Bible Belt for the heck of it.
> >
> > I am not fond of extra paper work it would cause the Censors, but we
> > have to get some form of verifiable permission from the parents of
> any
> > new citizen who isn't Sui Iuris in thier Macro Nation, For the USA
> > this includes the 17 year old full citizen as well as the 10 year
> old
> > minor.
>
> A very good point. While I am generally opposed to this law (there is
> not a compelling need for it and it can open a potential can of worms
> by putting us into conflict with macronational law), perhaps a
> good compromise would be that minor children of Nova Roma citizens
> could become citizens while still minors. If one is 17 and his or her
> parents are citizens, then that 17 year old can join as a citizen. If
> one's parents aren't citizens, then that person must wait until he is
> 18. That way there is no possibly of running afoul of parents of
> minors and of macronational law. I too can see the headline "pagan
> group recruits minors."
>
> Still, the Catholic Church and other religious organizations don't
> have an 18 year old limit. They confirm people at a much earlier age
> so there is a precedent since we are a religious organization as
> well. I don't believe they confim the children of non-Catholics until
> they are of age though, or certainly not without the parents'
> permission. I think in our case allowing only minor children of
> citizens to become full citizens is a reasonable safeguard. This also
> nicely sidesteps the tricky question of when someone is sui iuris
> macronationally.
>
> We have to keep in mind that we are not like other orgnizations and I
> believe have to tread more carefully around some issues.
>
>
> Vale,
>
> Decius Iunius Palladius,
> Senator Consularis

Salvete Quirites,

I would just like to add some comments to the Senators points, and I
intend to be very blunt.

We Are Pagans. That means we are a very small minority, and there are
some Christian sects that hate us. Some of these sects have a
considerable ammount of policital power. They would not only gladly
destroy Nova Roma, but would consider it a pius act to do so. We can
NOT afford to give them the ammunition to destroy us.

Because of our limited funds we are ONE lawsuit away from being
destroyed. We can't afford to take the chance of letting Minors join
unless we are certain that thier parents approve. This also means that
we need to start requiring some form of ID from applicants who claim
to be adults. It isn't going to help us a lot to tell an unfriendly
jury "She said She was 18"

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Roman Paganism
From:	CmndrZil@--------
Date:	Sun, 3 Jun 2001 03:13:11 EDT

Salve!

It is late, and so I am pondering the meaning of life and higher powers and
what not, as well as looking for something Roman to do. (The tapestry is at
a stand still. I learned how to build a loom from a cardboard box, but I do
not have thread yet, and I cannot draw the image I've finally decided on.
Woe is me.) Thus, I was drawn to the "Declaration of Roman Religion" page.
The only religious ideals I hold at this point in my life are Catholic guilt,
and a feeling that there is a higher power.

This is the third time I've read it, (Declarations overwhelm me with their
boldness at times, and I find them, to be honest, quite rude. It usually
takes me a couple of tries to get through them without feeling offended.)
and I was hit with a question. Please read my question with the intonation
of "I want to understand how you see the world" and NOT "why the hell do you
see the world this way?"

The religio died out, people stopped worshipping the gods, and things
changed. How did those of you who retain these beliefs decide to bring it
back?

Please don't think my question offensive, I mean no offense. With Judaism,
Catholism, or Buddhism, one can always say "several billion people can't be
wrong." One could also say the ancients can't be wrong, but a generation
that was much closer to them than we said they were.

Tarquinia Euphemia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Paganism
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 3 Jun 2001 17:24:21 +1000 (EST)

Salve Tarquinia,

Well, to me the Roman religio always made sense. I saw
life as being split up into factions, or provinces, if
you will.:-) I could never understand the concept of
one god over all facets of life, as there would be too
much to do at one time. The fact that there is a god
for every part of life makes more sense to me, I
suppose. I was brought up under Christian beleifs but,
due to cirumstances I'd rather not elaborate upon, I
came to see paganism as my 'salvation' (forgive the
use of a Christian word for want of a pagan
definition). I began worshipping Mars, as his
influence spreads over a great deal of modern life,
and not only in conflict, but also in the acceptance
and stability of peace. I brought it back because I
felt it very relevant to our world, and because I have
'faith' in the gods existance, and so I pray and honor
them.

Hope this helps with you theological query.:-)

Vale bene,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

Legatus Australia Medius
Sacerdos Mars Invictus

--- CmndrZil@-------- wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Salve! 
 
It is late, and so I am pondering the meaning of life
and higher powers and 
what not, as well as looking for something Roman to
do. (The tapestry is at 
a stand still. I learned how to build a loom
from a cardboard box, but I do 
not have thread yet, and I cannot draw the image I've
finally decided on. 
Woe is me.) Thus, I was drawn to the
"Declaration of Roman Religion" page.
 
The only religious ideals I hold at this point in my
life are Catholic guilt, 
and a feeling that there is a higher power. 
 
This is the third time I've read it,
(Declarations overwhelm me with their 
boldness at times, and I find them, to be honest,
quite rude. It usually 
takes me a couple of tries to get through them without
feeling offended.) 
and I was hit with a question. Please read my
question with the intonation 
of "I want to understand how you see the
world" and NOT "why the hell do you 
see the world this way?" 
 
The religio died out, people stopped worshipping the
gods, and things 
changed. How did those of you who retain these
beliefs decide to bring it 
back? 
 
Please don't think my question offensive, I mean no
offense. With Judaism, 
Catholism, or Buddhism, one can always say
"several billion people can't be 
wrong." One could also say the ancients
can't be wrong, but a generation 
that was much closer to them than we said they were.
 
 
Tarquinia Euphemia 
</tt>

 



<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Paganism
From:	CmndrZil@--------
Date:	Sun, 3 Jun 2001 03:37:16 EDT

Salve Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura,

You have a very long name. You should beware of
Rikkitikkitembonosarembocharibarirukipipperipembo's fate.

That was a wonderful answer, inspiring a followup question. (Tell me to buzz
off anytime.) When you originally realized your polytheism, did you consider
various forms of it, and stumble upon Mars (you said you started by
worshipping him), or did a classical education or something similar lead you
in that direction?

Tarquinia Euphemia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Paganism
From:	QFabiusMax@--------
Date:	Sun, 3 Jun 2001 05:31:11 EDT

In a message dated 6/3/2001 12:13:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
CmndrZil@-------- writes:

<< The religio died out, people stopped worshipping the gods, and things
changed. How did those of you who retain these beliefs decide to bring it
back?<<

Salve Tarquinia Euphemia

The word Pagan is the Vulgate Latin euphemism for outsider. It is ironic
that we are the outsiders considering how much Catholicism stole from our
Religion to make their own.

When I was at St. Augustine High School, I was brilliant classics student,
(My teachers' words not mine.) My mentor Fr. Wasko whose love for
Shakespeare and Cicero was unparalleled felt that I had the makings of great
teaching priest in Augustine order. He encouraged me to take a two year
comparative religion class that demonstrated that Catholicism was the one
true religion, as part of my initial Alas it discouraged me from religious
participation in the Catholic Church.

I found out in the reading of the various text that Catholicism was no
different (to me)
then the worship in ancient Sumeria. (The son is sent by the father to save
his chosen people) Far from being the one true religion, Christianity is
an incredible patchwork of Jewish, Greco-Roman, and Sassan Persian ideas,
names and rituals.
Even the Jewish religion is not pure. It borrows heavily from certain
aspects of Egyptian religion.

I was having this discussion with Secundia Cornelia earlier today. Do I
believe there are a set of powerful beings living on Olympus? No, because we
would have perceived them today. Were they living there at the time of the
Greeks? Why not? All legends have a grain of truth to them. Were they
Gods? What is the term of a God?
A powerful being who is supernatural. What is supernatural? The ability to
control nature. Even the shepherd's God can do this. They to the Greek,
Roman, Persians, Germans and Vikings could do so and so are Gods. So are
they Aliens? I don't know or care. They are supernatural superior beings
and they are stronger then me, a mortal. So be it. As long as they remember
the pact we humans made with them eons ago, and honor our requests, I in
return honor and give them their sustenance.

Why is Polytheism and naturalist worship making a come back? IMO
Christianity, and it's stepson the Muslim religion has proven to be a
bankrupt experience out of touch or too in touch with the times. Recently
several times the US has nearly broken with the church over dogma.
Right now Palestinians blow themselves thinking they will get to heaven. The
K'or'an does not say this, but the leaders of the militant sects use this
belief to motivate their soldiers just the Arab emir's used it in the 700s.

I do not think it's a coincidence that Nova Roma has appeared on the scene at
this
time in the world. I believe besides reconstructing the Government, all the
current research on the Religio is being driven by something. Is that
something the Gods?
I don't know. But something is causing this theological shift. I have a
feeling what it is but so far, I'd rather not speculate. I'd rather wait and
see what happens in the next two years.

In closing, once I abandoned Christianity, I wanted to come to grips with the
decision in a meaningful way. I had been writing short stories on the
Cythulu Mythos, for several SF mags, and as a writer I wanted to express my
feelings (cause that is what we do) in print. So I wrote a story about a man
who was a dirty SOB, yet went to mass and to confession once a week. Why,
because it cleansed him. and he is secure in the knowledge that he will be
rewarded by eternal life as promised in
the new testament. Because isn't that the pact with the Christian God, if
one dies in the state of grace one goes to heaven? As he is leaving the
church he is hit by a school bus and blacks out.
He recovers his senses in a long line of waiting people. He asks what is
this. The person in front says they are waiting for judgment. The man sighs
contentedly since he knows he died in the state of grace.
All off a sudden, loud screams break the silence. The man steps out and
peers ahead of the line to see what has happened. He recoils in horror.
In a grim scene a jackal headed man stands waiting, while crocodile headed
woman consumes a screaming human. Both are underneath a large golden scale,
on one side is glistening human heart, on the other a feather. A man with
crane's head takes notes.
On a golden throne, a man in white with strange gourd shaped head piece
watches the proceedings impassively while a falcon headed man awaits by his
side.
The realization strikes like a thunderbolt...this is not the gates of
heaven...this is a scene from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. With growing
dread, the awareness comes to him, that his state of grace means nothing to
these deities, just all his past deeds! He is damned and annihilation
awaits. He screams: "Wait...I did not know!" <italics> "I DID NOT KNOW!"

The magazine rejected the story. I wonder why?

Vale
Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Changing the Constitution I: Age of Citizenship
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 3 Jun 2001 12:20:53 +0200

Salvete Quirites,

Regarding the topic of minor applicants sending in a false authorization. Is
that possible? Yes of course. But it is also possible that, for example,
Tyrannus Pomposus, who runs for Consul, claims to be 36 while being actually
a power-mad 15 year old. It is also possible for people to make up a new
address and be two citizens at the same time. It is possible for a man to
get citizenship as a woman. Heck, it's even possible to make my pet a
citizen. Question is: are these things likely?

We'll simply have to trust people, I suppose. In cases of doubt, a nearby
legate or governor could check on these people. If there is none, we have
ill luck, of course. But then again, this situation isn't very likely. In
the case presented of Ivan from Siberia, would his parents not think it were
suspicious if he sent a letter to the US for appearently no good reason?
Most parents would, I'm sure of that.

Valete!
Draco

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Roman Paganism
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Jun 2001 11:13:44 -0000

Tarquinia Euphemia wrote:

> The religio died out, people stopped worshipping the gods, and things
> changed. How did those of you who retain these beliefs decide to
bring it
> back?

Salve

I lost my faith in Christianity while in my teens. It was the
exclusiveness of that faith that turned me off. A God that would
condeem billions to eternal punishment for failing to beleave in him,
even if they never heard of him seem more like some kind of demon than
the divine. I became an agnostic. This left a void in my life, I knew
the divine existed, I just didn't know how to address it.

How could so many people look at the divine, and see so many different
things. I bagan to look at the worlds faiths, and found something of
value in them. I was comming to the view that if the divine couldn't
be directly percived by man, and that how we view it depended on the
cultural ideas we had when we tried. That if the divine manifested
itself before a group of men one would see Rama, another Jesus, and a
third Allah. They would see what they expected to see. I had become a
Pantheist.

Not finding what I was seeking in the modern faiths, I began looking
at the earlier beliefs of these faiths, and at other ancient faiths.
When I came to the Religio I was amazed. The ideas of numina and of a
God having many aspects. The Romans KNEW what I had come to beleave
before I knew anything about the Religio other than assorted myths. I
had become a Roman Pagan, though I prefer the term a Numinist.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Paganism
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 3 Jun 2001 22:53:44 +1000 (EST)

Salve Tarquinia,

I'm glad to hear someone else mention the story of
Rikkitikkitembonosarembocharibarirukipipperipembo. For
a while I had the feeling I was the only person to
have heard that story.:-)

Strangely enough, for a period of time (about 3 years)
I was an athiest. But studying Mars in his full roles,
I felt...well, what can only be called a 'spiritual
affinity', perhaps divine inspiration....who can say?
I did at one stage worship Aten, the Egyptian
monotheistic god...but I found no comfort or solace
there that I found when I found my want to devote my
prayer and religion to Mars....so I guess that a
Classical education did partially head me in that
direction. Let's just say that at my age I was very
well read in history, though my sources were limited
(and yet strangely enough, books on ancient religion
were the one part of history my primary school library
excelled upon).

I hope this helps answer your question. If you have
anymore questions, feel free to ask. I find it is
better to have things aired than to leave them to
moulder.:-)

Vale bene,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

Legatus Australia Medius
Sacerdos Mars Invictus

--- CmndrZil@-------- wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Salve Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura, 
 
You have a very long name.� You should beware of 
Rikkitikkitembonosarembocharibarirukipipperipembo's
fate.�� 
 
That was a wonderful answer, inspiring a followup
question.� (Tell me to buzz 
off anytime.)� When you originally realized your
polytheism, did you consider 
various forms of it, and stumble upon Mars (you said
you started by 
worshipping him), or did a classical education or
something similar lead you 
in that direction?� 
 
Tarquinia Euphemia 
</tt>

 



<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"


Subject:	[novaroma] Gens Claudia Webpage
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Jun 2001 10:44:09 -0400

Salve civis et amicus,

To help to form a stronger gens Claudia community I have put my skills to
work once again to form a gens Claudia website. If you wish to visit this
new site just redirect your browser to
http://www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/

It still may need some touching up, if you have any suggestions they are
welcomed.

Hinc est mei oratio!

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Canada Orientalis Provincia
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Changing the Constitution I: Age o..........
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sun, 3 Jun 2001 09:07:25 -0700 (PDT)

Salve, L. Sicini Druse.

--- Lucius Sicinius Drusus <lsicinius@--------> wrote:

<<snipped>>

> I'm not sure that using the Term Pagan is a good idea. The word has a
> long history of Negative associations. It was pinned on the
> worshipers
> of the Gods by the Christians. Pagani originally ment country people,
> and in antiquita those who lived in the cities looked down on country
> dwellers, so in many cases Pagani could be translated as
> "Hillbillys",
> and it was applied to us brcause the "hillbillys" continued to
> worship
> the Gods after the Cities converted to Christanity. It was ment to be
> a demeaning insulting term, and many Christians still look at it this
> way some 1600 years later.

This is correct. No urban Roman would have referred to himself as a
paganus; it was a somehow despective term. As we honour the numines, I
think that the term "Numinist" is both appropriate and correct.

What do you think?

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Roaming Days
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Sun, 3 Jun 2001 12:35:30 -0400

Salvete,
I think this is a great idea. For one thing, a real-life annual event would
very likely help involve some of the inactive citizens on the list, since
some may just not like to involve themselves in list discussions. Plus such
events give unity to an organization.

Valete bene,
Helena Galeria

<<<L. Sicinius Drusus scripsit:

What I thinking of is a Nova Roma Sponsered event, that would be held
in a different Provincia in North America each year. Each Province
would take turns hosting this Roman Festival. Perhaps the Citizens in
Europe would like to set up a Euro Roman Festival in the same manner,
also with Nova Roma sponsoring it.>>>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roaming Days
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sun, 3 Jun 2001 09:41:24 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes; et salve, L. Sicini Druse.

I think this idea is a pretty good one. I have been trying to start the
organization of a NR meeting in Europe, but have received little
response. Maybe our aediles should express their opinion on this.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Age of Consent
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Sun, 3 Jun 2001 12:49:25 -0400

(RANT WARNING)
Salvete,

<<Decius Iunius Palladius scripsit:

Still, the Catholic Church and other religious organizations don't
have an 18 year old limit. They confirm people at a much earlier age
so there is a precedent since we are a religious organization as
well. I don't believe they confim the children of non-Catholics until
they are of age though, or certainly not without the parents'
permission.>>

I had an unpleasant experience with the local Episcopalian church when my
youngest daughter was 15. She had been going to the Youth group for about a
year with her best friend (after her First Blood in our Circle, no less).
Our circle, of course, had NO teenage boys & did not take field trips to
CaroWinds. So much for spirituality. I had given VERBAL consent for the
youth group only.

The Saturday before Easter that year, she told me that she couldn't go to
circle that night. I asked why, & she told me she was being confirmed that
night!! No permission asked (of course, my little darling hadn't been very
honest LOL). I was furious & called my HP who also was angry. I had a long
talk with the child & agreed that she could go if I talked to her
'priestess' (the minister is a woman) first.

This person couldn't understand my anger, except the lying on the part of my
daughter (which meant, among other things, that her Episcopalean grandfather
couldn't attend). I tried all sorts of arguments & got blank looks. She
asked if I meant to refuse permission that night, I thanked her
sarcastically for her finally requesting it, & told her that my HP would be
discussing this problem later. I did let my daughter go on with the
ceremony, since THAT wasn't the issue for me. It was the lack of
permission.

So. Can you imagine the uproar if a pagan priestess did that? I guess I
could have made a test case (my brothers the lawyers say yes I could have)
but that would not have been cool for my little girl. When my HP talked
with this woman, & the Bishop, neither could understand the problem, since
my daughter had been baptized (Methodist for my mom, Catholic for her dad's
family - I'm democratic).

Still makes my blood boil LOL.

Valete,
Helena Galeria

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Subject:	[novaroma] What we call ourselves, was Re: Changing...
From:	Steven - Piparskeggr <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Jun 2001 10:43:31 -0500

Salvete Omnes,

Primus: Back from my visit to family in Massachusetts. All in all,
WELL worth the drive (36 hours round trip).
The main event was to celebrate the 90th birthday of my grandfather,
Antonio Leonardo D'Orazio.
My mom (a natural born Curule �dile) and her sisters expected as many as
100 people, over 150 signed his guestbook.

Gnaeus Salix Astur wrote:
>
> Salve, L. Sicini Druse.
>
> --- Lucius Sicinius Drusus <lsicinius@--------> wrote:
>
> <<snipped>>
>
> > I'm not sure that using the Term Pagan is a good idea. (excision)
>
> This is correct. No urban Roman would have referred to himself as a
> paganus; it was a somehow despective term. As we honour the numines, I
> think that the term "Numinist" is both appropriate and correct.
>
> What do you think?
>
> =====
> Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
> Gnaeus Salix Astur.
> Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.
>

Secondus: For as long as I have been "ex-Catholic" and investigating
other Faithways, this has been a debate (probably long before that
also). I usually term myself an Heathen, as my ancestors of that part
of my forebearage don't seem to have been Urbani, but rather Pagani.
Heathen being the Germanic similicrum for Pagani.

I am also, philosophically, a Polytheist. I believe that the Gods and
Goddesses are more than Numinous Beings, so Numinist would not work for
me, under the more common understanding of Numen as Spirit. I do
understand that our Roman Cultural Forebears had a more complex idea of
who and what the Numinae were/are.

mea sententia

--
=========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Cives, Paterfamilias, Qu�stor et Legate
My homestead
http://www.geocities.com/piparskegg/index.html
File of my Poems and Songs
http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/Pip_music/files/

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Citizenship Application Verifications (was Minors in NR)
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sun, 3 Jun 2001 09:47:22 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes; et salve, L. Sicini Druse.

--- Lucius Sicinius Drusus <lsicinius@--------> wrote:

<<snipped>>

> Salvete Quirites,
>
> After the recent events in Britannia I see little chance of the
> Provinciae getting access to the sensitive personal information that
> the Censors office has.
>
> So would it be possible for the Censors to apoint a Scriba from each
> Provincia who would answer directly to the Censors, not the
> Propraetors. These Scribae could handle much of the verification
> process and forward the information to the Censors office for final
> action. Local Scribae would be more familar with local laws in thier
> provincia than the Censors.

I see that the only problem is a lack of confidence in our provincial
governments. I think we should overcome this problem; after all, our
propraetores are directly controlled by the Senate, and they can be
removed at any time. So I guess there are much more secure, from the
central government point of view, than our elected magistrates ;-).

Having said this, I completely agree with your idea of having a
censorial scriba in each province. My point was that this work should
be done on a local level, and not who should appoint those local
officials.

As the Roman census was done on a local level, there were surely local
officials to handle it. What was their name?

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Roman Paganism
From:	antoniuscorvusseptimius@--------
Date:	Sun, 03 Jun 2001 15:57:39 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, CmndrZil@a... wrote:
> Salve!
>
> It is late, and so I am pondering the meaning of life and higher powers and
> what not, as well as looking for something Roman to do. (The tapestry is at
> a stand still. I learned how to build a loom from a cardboard box, but I do
> not have thread yet, and I cannot draw the image I've finally decided on.
> Woe is me.) Thus, I was drawn to the "Declaration of Roman Religion" page.
> The only religious ideals I hold at this point in my life are Catholic guilt,
> and a feeling that there is a higher power.
>
> This is the third time I've read it, (Declarations overwhelm me with their
> boldness at times, and I find them, to be honest, quite rude. It usually
> takes me a couple of tries to get through them without feeling offended.)
> and I was hit with a question. Please read my question with the intonation
> of "I want to understand how you see the world" and NOT "why the hell do you
> see the world this way?"
>
> The religio died out, people stopped worshipping the gods, and things
> changed. How did those of you who retain these beliefs decide to bring it
> back?
>
> Please don't think my question offensive, I mean no offense. With Judaism,
> Catholism, or Buddhism, one can always say "several billion people can't be
> wrong." One could also say the ancients can't be wrong, but a generation
> that was much closer to them than we said they were.
>
> Tarquinia Euphemia

Salvete,

Being brought up Roman Catholic, I always wondered why my
family called me their Roman. And, wondered why the saints were so
similar to the stories my grandfather taught me about our ancestors'
gods. It seemed as though they (as I see now) were still following in
the Roman tradition, but in a manner that seemed to be pleasing to the
intolerable present regime. As I grow older, the longing to cling to my
roots became more apparent. And from there it began... The search for
the reasons why a life founded on fundemental human nature, became a
life that was devoted to neglecting (instead of nurturing) of our basic
human needs. Now, as we try to seperate ourselves from the inhumanity
that was forced onto so many of us. We live in harmony with the
universe, pleasing (at least) to this soul
I enjoy the rites of the religio, not out of fear of the gods.
But out of respect and adoration for them. Hope this helps in
understanding why some of us have come to our sences:) (so to speak)

Live Well, Antonius Corvus Septimius

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Age of Consent
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Sun, 3 Jun 2001 13:09:40 -0400


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Changing the Constitution I: Age o..........
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Jun 2001 17:06:34 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> wrote:
> Salve, L. Sicini Druse.
>
> --- Lucius Sicinius Drusus <lsicinius@--------> wrote:
>
> <<snipped>>
>
> > I'm not sure that using the Term Pagan is a good idea. The word has a
> > long history of Negative associations. It was pinned on the
> > worshipers
> > of the Gods by the Christians. Pagani originally ment country people,
> > and in antiquita those who lived in the cities looked down on country
> > dwellers, so in many cases Pagani could be translated as
> > "Hillbillys",
> > and it was applied to us brcause the "hillbillys" continued to
> > worship
> > the Gods after the Cities converted to Christanity. It was ment to be
> > a demeaning insulting term, and many Christians still look at it this
> > way some 1600 years later.
>
> This is correct. No urban Roman would have referred to himself as a
> paganus; it was a somehow despective term. As we honour the numines, I
> think that the term "Numinist" is both appropriate and correct.
>
> What do you think?
>

That is the term I prefer. It has no negative associations, and it's
more accurate than "Hillbilly" or "Hick" which is the context the
Christians were using when they pinned that word on us.

Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Age of Consent
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Jun 2001 17:26:52 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Teleri ferch N--------n" <rckovak@e...> wrote:

SNIP

> I did let my daughter go on with the
> ceremony, since THAT wasn't the issue for me. It was the lack of
> permission.
>
> So. Can you imagine the uproar if a pagan priestess did that? I
guess I
> could have made a test case (my brothers the lawyers say yes I could
have)
> but that would not have been cool for my little girl. When my HP talked
> with this woman, & the Bishop, neither could understand the problem,
since
> my daughter had been baptized (Methodist for my mom, Catholic for
her dad's
> family - I'm democratic).
>
> Still makes my blood boil LOL.
>
> Valete,
> Helena Galeria

Salve,

The double standard.
To these kind of people ANY thing they do in the name of thier faith
is a Pius act, and if any one else does the same thing they were
inspired by Satan.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Paganism
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Jun 2001 13:39:31 -0500

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Salvete Euphemia Omnesque

I have never been a Christian. My father is a non-practicing Unitarian
and my mother is quite possibly the ultime secular humanist. I spent
much of my early years travelling outside of the United States in
Europe, Africa, and the Orient. Therefore, I was exposed to a great
many religions in their cultural context without actually being
socialized into any one of them.

Instead, I developed a philosophy born of my own inquiries into the
nature of the world and my self. Of all the philosophies I have
encountered, Stoicism holds the most appeal, and I have been a
practicing Stoic for quite a few years now. Despite Stoicism's heavy
influence on Christianity, there have been exceedingly few real Stoic
philosophers since the Classical age (the only good exception, IMO, is
Lipsius). Christianity misses the point by converting Stoicism's
injunction to always seek virtue into an injunction to have faith in
Jesus the Christ. Judaism and Islam require similar leaps of faith.
The various Hindu and Buddhist traditions focus on correct action, but
claim that the world is ultimately illusory.

I reject what I perceive as the mistakes of these faiths unequivocally.
Even if humans cannot achieve sage-hood, it is the attempt to act
virtuously that is the proper human vocation, not blind faith nor an
attempt to escape reality. I fully agree with Camus that the ultimate
expression of human triumph is found in Sisyphus' return to the stone.
He knows that he will never succeed in placing the boulder on top of the
hill, but despite that he turns to push it again. The world's major
religions tell us to let go of the rock, either by placing our faith in
some higher power or by choosing to believe that the rock never really
existed.

I practice a religion because it is a proven fact that those people who
participate in one are healthier in mind and body than those who do
not. Classical paganism does not conflict with my Stoic
viewpoint--indeed, it compliments it--and I enjoy the ritual aspects of
its practice. Ritual is an aesthetic activity which gives one an
opportunity to exist in the moment of an act while contemplating the
divine.

> Please don't think my question offensive, I mean no offense. With
> Judaism, Catholism, or Buddhism, one can always say "several
> billion people can't be wrong."

Since most of the world's religions are exclusionary, claiming to be the
one path to salvation/Truth, several billion people are *definitely*
wrong if any one of them is correct.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
- --
"Ipsa scientia potestas est."
-Francis Bacon

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Changing the Constitution I: Age o..........
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Jun 2001 13:43:10 -0500

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Salvete

> That is the term I prefer. It has no negative associations, and
> it's more accurate than "Hillbilly" or "Hick" which is the context
> the
> Christians were using when they pinned that word on us.

I wouldn't use the term Numinist, as I tend to believe that the
numina are extensions of the Gods' powers, rather than several
entities of themselves.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
- --
"Ipsa scientia potestas est."
-Francis Bacon

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Changing the Constitution I: Age o..........
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Jun 2001 19:02:24 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Fortunatus <labienus@t...> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Salvete
>
> > That is the term I prefer. It has no negative associations, and
> > it's more accurate than "Hillbilly" or "Hick" which is the context
> > the
> > Christians were using when they pinned that word on us.
>
> I wouldn't use the term Numinist, as I tend to believe that the
> numina are extensions of the Gods' powers, rather than several
> entities of themselves.
>
> Valete
> T Labienus Fortunatus

Salve,

You are corect that it may not be the best term, as it describes a
subgroup within the Religio, rather than everyone. I would like to
find a better term than Pagan however.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Terms (was Changing the Constitution)
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Jun 2001 14:17:28 -0500

Salve Luci Sicini

> You are corect that it may not be the best term, as it describes a
> subgroup within the Religio, rather than everyone. I would like to
> find a better term than Pagan however.

This is a perennial discussion in pagan communities. I tend to prefer
the term polytheist, myself, as it tends to be fairly neutral as these
things go. Others prefer pagan or heathen, or simply go with their
particular subgroup's nomenclature (Wiccan, Asatru, etc.). A while
back, this list seemed to grudgingly settle upon Roman Pagan, but it was
far from unanimous.

Vale
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Ipsa scientia potestas est."
-Francis Bacon

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Changing the Constitution I: Age o..........
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Jun 2001 15:11:01 -0400

Salve civis et amicus,

Obviously the original Romans did not call them selves Pagan. Though did
they call there religion by a name? Or did they just call it "the state
religion"? If they did have a name I would suggest using that over pagan.

Hinc est mei oratio!

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Canada Orientalis Provincia
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien
--

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/

Fortunatus wrote:

>
> You are corect that it may not be the best term, as it describes a
> subgroup within the Religio, rather than everyone. I would like to
> find a better term than Pagan however.
>
> Vale,
> L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] New Copy-Cat Nova Roma!
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Sun, 3 Jun 2001 15:28:17 EDT

Are you in the mood for a good laugh?

www.geocities.com/imperiumnovum

If I am not mistaken, their 'Princeps' Tiberius Claudius Nero is Nova Roma's
Drusus Vipsanius Claudius, formerly of the gens Cornelii. But perhaps I am
mistaken.

Nerva

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] New Copy-Cat Nova Roma!
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Sun, 3 Jun 2001 15:24:20 -0500 (CDT)

On Sun, 3 Jun 2001 gcassiusnerva@-------- wrote:

> Are you in the mood for a good laugh?
>
> www.geocities.com/imperiumnovum
>
> If I am not mistaken, their 'Princeps' Tiberius Claudius Nero is Nova Roma's
> Drusus Vipsanius Claudius, formerly of the gens Cornelii. But perhaps I am
> mistaken.

Looks harmless enough... and there's nothing wrong with citizens wanting
to start up their own Roman groups.

However, stealing our background image and color scheme was quite naughty!

Vale, Octavius.

---
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	[novaroma] Who is Anna?
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Jun 2001 16:57:18 -0400

Salve civis et amicus,

Aeneid 4:1-21

But queen of great importance for a long time, why sustain wounds? Streaks
courage briefly to refuse family honours. Disrespectfully repairs
expressions of language of the heart, nor gentle or fine do concern peace of
the future of Phoebeus. Scanning with a lamp the earth and the damp dawn
from the sky had removed the shade when thus like minded he addressed barley
sane sister Anna."My sister, what in dreams suspense frighten? What knew
this? We have arrived at our home, guest himself in speech describing what
of a brave heart and arms I believe indeed. Nor vain is my confidence, his
race to be of the gods base born sprites cowardice proves. Ah! By what he
has been tricked by fates! What wars drunk to the full he sang if for me not
my heart fixed and unmoved it lay settled that not to anybody myself by the
bond I should be willing to join in marriage after my first love deceived
me. But death cheated me, if not thoroughly sick of my first love deceived
me. By death cheated me if not thoroughly sick of the wedding chamber and
the marriage torch. I were here alone perhaps to be able assist in
chastity."

I just recently translated the above from one of vergils writing. I am
curious about this "Anna". Now I know Phoebeus is another name for Apollo.
He was also in love with Daphne. She had resolved to spend her life as a
virgin so she ran away and seeks protection from the gods. From above I see
this Anna seems to fit the whole issue with Daphne well. Is Virgil referring
to Daphne in the text above as Anna? I am wondering if any civis could shed
some light on this.

Hinc est mei oratio!

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Canada Orientalis Provincia
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien
--

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] New Copy-Cat Nova Roma!
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Sun, 3 Jun 2001 16:57:00 EDT

In a message dated 6/3/01 1:24:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, haase@--------
writes:

<<However, stealing our background image and color scheme was quite naughty!>>

Well...*imitation* is the highest form of flattery.

Nerva

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] New Copy-Cat Nova Roma!
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Jun 2001 17:15:53 -0400

Salve civis et amicus,

Marcus Octavius Germanicus wrote:

> However, stealing our background image and color scheme was quite naughty!

Yes I agree it is "naughty" though its not under copyright to my
understanding so he legally he had every right to use the images and
colours. I some how doubt that this site we ever challenge Nova Roma for
being the "New Rome" of the world.

Hinc est mei oratio!

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Canada Orientalis Provincia
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien
--

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gens Claudia Webpage
From:	"Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@-------->
Date:	Mon, 4 Jun 2001 09:43:33 +1200

Salve frater Amuli Claudi Petre!

Many thanks for a wonderful site! It looks great! And very fast work too!

Vale bene
Domna Claudia Auspicata

Salve civis et amicus,

To help to form a stronger gens Claudia community I have put my skills to
work once again to form a gens Claudia website. If you wish to visit this
new site just redirect your browser to
http://www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/

It still may need some touching up, if you have any suggestions they are
welcomed.

Hinc est mei oratio!

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Canada Orientalis Provincia
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] New Copy-Cat Nova Roma!
From:	"Andrew Rielly" <arielly1@-------->
Date:	Sun, 3 Jun 2001 14:29:27 -0700

>However, stealing our background image and color scheme was quite naughty!
>

The background image appears to be one available on half a million* freeware
clipart sites, stealing implies taking a custom created image which a
copyright is held on. :-)

* perhaps a slight exaggeration

Publicus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Roman Paganism
From:	bcatfd@--------
Date:	Sun, 03 Jun 2001 22:20:51 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, CmndrZil@a... wrote:
> Salve!
Thus, I was drawn to the "Declaration of Roman Religion" page.
> The only religious ideals I hold at this point in my life are
>Catholic guilt, and a feeling that there is a higher power.
>
> This is the third time I've read it, (Declarations overwhelm me
with their boldness at times, and I find them, to be honest, quite
>rude. It usually takes me a couple of tries to get through them
>without feeling offended.) and I was hit with a question. Please
>read my question with the intonation of "I want to understand how
>you see the world" and NOT "why the hell do you see the world this
>way?"
>
> The religio died out, people stopped worshipping the gods, and
>things changed.

The Religio didn't die out and people didn't just stop worshipping
the Gods on a whim. The state Religion was killed off and people were
forced to stop worshipping the Gods. And after a number of centuries,
they complied. Let's not forget how this came about. Christianity
gained control of the imperial throne with the help of Constantine.
Persecution and pogroms from the time of Constantine on (admittedly
mild at first) chipped away at traditional religious belief. In the
late 4th century, Theodosius banned pagan worship and sacrifice at
pain of death. Temples were destroyed and priests were killed
throughout the Mediteranean/Roman world. The destruction of the
Religio and the pagan religions was not a single event but a series
of events through several centuries. Justinian in the 6th century was
still instituting pogroms against pagan worship, which obviously had
not yet died off. This is how Roman religion died in the ancient
world. After centuries of sporadic persecution the Christian church
came into power, and then turned right around and persecuted pagans,
and eventually after many centuries was largely successful. Now, I
don't mean this as an indictment against present Christianity or
Christians. They had nothing to do with those ancient events. Even
those ancient Christians cannot be wholly condemned, for it is the
nature of the conqueror to vanquish the conquered and to assimilate
them. It makes me sad to think of it but rarely angry anymore.

The pagan faiths did not thrive under persecution the way the
monotheistic ones did, that is the nature of polytheism.

>How did those of you who retain these beliefs decide to bring it
>back?

The reason those of us who have worked for many years to bring back
the Religio have done so is because we believe a light (*a* light,
not necessarily the only light before any of you Christians jump on
me) of Western Civilization went out with the pagan religions of the
Roman world and that we are much the poorer for it. The Religio
didn't lose a contest of ideas, it lost to sheer force. It is more or
less safe from that force now to be revived.

> Please don't think my question offensive, I mean no offense. With
>Judaism, Catholism, or Buddhism, one can always say "several billion
>people can't be wrong." One could also say the ancients can't be
>wrong, but a generation that was much closer to them than we said
>they were.

Yes, but which billion people? The billion plus and steadily growing
number of Catholics? The nearly 1 billion and also rapidly increasing
Muslim population? The 700 or 800 million Hindus? Or the several
hundred million (and generally shrinking in numbers) Protestant
Christians? Some billion are wrong one might guess looking at these
groups, depending on which faith you belong to. Or perhaps all
religions are right and each is a different covenant with divinity.

Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Roman Paganism
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sun, 3 Jun 2001 15:43:37 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes!

--- bcatfd@-------- wrote:
> --- In novaroma@--------, CmndrZil@a... wrote:

<<snipped>>

> > The religio died out, people stopped worshipping the gods, and
> >things changed.
>
> The Religio didn't die out and people didn't just stop worshipping
> the Gods on a whim. The state Religion was killed off and people were
>
> forced to stop worshipping the Gods. And after a number of centuries,
>
> they complied. Let's not forget how this came about. Christianity
> gained control of the imperial throne with the help of Constantine.
> Persecution and pogroms from the time of Constantine on (admittedly
> mild at first) chipped away at traditional religious belief. In the
> late 4th century, Theodosius banned pagan worship and sacrifice at
> pain of death. Temples were destroyed and priests were killed
> throughout the Mediteranean/Roman world. The destruction of the
> Religio and the pagan religions was not a single event but a series
> of events through several centuries. Justinian in the 6th century was
>
> still instituting pogroms against pagan worship, which obviously had
> not yet died off. This is how Roman religion died in the ancient
> world. After centuries of sporadic persecution the Christian church
> came into power, and then turned right around and persecuted pagans,
> and eventually after many centuries was largely successful. Now, I
> don't mean this as an indictment against present Christianity or
> Christians. They had nothing to do with those ancient events. Even
> those ancient Christians cannot be wholly condemned, for it is the
> nature of the conqueror to vanquish the conquered and to assimilate
> them. It makes me sad to think of it but rarely angry anymore.
>
> The pagan faiths did not thrive under persecution the way the
> monotheistic ones did, that is the nature of polytheism.

This is correct. Besides, Christanism assured its triumph by
assimilating some important parts of paganism. The major festivities of
paganism (Saturnalia, Sammonis, etc...) were transformed into Christian
festivities (Christmass, All Saints Day, etc...); the worship of the
Gods was substituted by the worship of the Saints (and some Gods were
directly transformed into Saints, like Brigit-St. Brigit or Mars-St,
Michael); the rites and religious structures of Roman Religion were
adopted by the Christian Church, etc...

So, for the common people, who where not intererested in dogma or
theology, there was not much difference between adoring the Ancient
Gods or adoring the New Saints.

Christianism won by selling its very soul to adopt a pagan form.

> > Please don't think my question offensive, I mean no offense. With
> >Judaism, Catholism, or Buddhism, one can always say "several billion
>
> >people can't be wrong." One could also say the ancients can't be
> >wrong, but a generation that was much closer to them than we said
> >they were.

Generations and generations have believed that the Earth was flat.
Millions of individuals have taken this for granted for centuries (NOT
all ancient pagans, BTW). Where they right because they were many?

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Roman Paganism
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Jun 2001 18:41:46 -0400

Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus wrote:

> Some billion are wrong one might guess looking at these
> groups, depending on which faith you belong to. Or perhaps all
> religions are right and each is a different covenant with divinity.

Salve,

Over history so many deaths and bitter conflicts have been caused over
religion. It is very sad and ugly side of humanity. The whole point of
religion is to establish moral values. As long as you are nice to people and
try to be a good person during your life, then what is religion? You can be
Christian, Hindu, or even Pagan as long as you are a good person with morals
established by a religion you believe in, then that should be all that
matters. Small parts of every religion are different, though we keep missing
the really big part of every religion, this part is to try to be kind and a
good person during you life.

I as a Christian am ashamed of many parts of our past, forcefully placing
religion on others is very, very wrong. As long as your religion helps you
to live a good life then that is all that matters and I wish other
Christians, and all people on Earth for that matter would see this more
often.

Hinc est mei oratio!

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Canada Orientalis Provincia
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien
--

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/

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Subject:	[novaroma] Name Change's and Passports
From:	Sextus Cornelius Cotta <sextus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Jun 2001 16:23:08 -0500

Has anyone actually changed their real name to their roman name? Also,
has anyone thought about passport's for Nova roma.

----Sextus
cornelius cotta

Sent from the iMac of Sextus Cornelius Cotta
ICQ# 29580250
AIM: SextusCornelius

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Paganism
From:	MffnQueen@--------
Date:	Sun, 3 Jun 2001 19:14:33 EDT

<<The religio died out, people stopped worshipping the gods, and things
changed. How did those of you who retain these beliefs decide to bring it
back?>>

For most people, I suppose it was just "feeling," a sense that They were
there, watching us and taking care of us. That is what I personally felt,
and what everyone I have talked to has felt. You don't just look at a
religion and decide, "Okay, I'm gonna be that." Well, I guess you could, but
you would be lying to yourself and your respective deity or deities. You
don't pick your religion, it picks you. In MY opinion, at least.

<< Please don't think my question offensive, I mean no offense. With
Judaism,
Catholism, or Buddhism, one can always say "several billion people can't be
wrong." One could also say the ancients can't be wrong, but a generation
that was much closer to them than we said they were.>>

Just because their worshippers are no longer in the majority does not mean a
deity or deities no longer exist(s). Their reality is not conditional,
especially not on how many people believe in Them. Several billion people
CAN be wrong, and several billion ARE wrong, regardless of what angle you
look at it from. More than billions.. Trillions, when you count our
ancestors. Do you honestly believe that a "generation" of flawed mortals
"much closer to [the ancients] than we" can actually judge the true value of
a religion? That's ridiculous! It isn't even our place to judge. This may
seem hard to a non-believer, but it is all a true believer knows. Even when
it comes to a religion we don't believe in.. At the very least, we should
just accept and respect it. We're human beings, and thus inherently flawed.
We're not meant to know everything.

Pax Vobiscum,
Julia Cassia Aurora

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Roman paganism
From:	gkbagne@--------
Date:	Sun, 03 Jun 2001 23:37:45 -0000

To All, From Lapella Greetings!

In philosphy, I'm a Buhdist but I also practice the Religio.
Theravada Buhdist traditions recounts a tale where the Buhda explains
to a disciple that it doesn't matter how many heavens and gods, or
how many hells and demons there are, if one practices the middle way
one will be happy. So I find it perfectly compatible to meditate
before my Lararium, offer incense and wine to the memory of my
ancestors, for the household spirits, and to honor the Gods.
My family has asked me how can I believe in all those myths, and I
reply that just because it didn't happen doesn't mean it isn't true.
Consider Aesop's fables; was there ever a little boy who cried wolf?
Does that make the point of the story any less true? I particularly
like the idea that when Saturn reigned we all lived in prosperity,
equality and peace- but he couldn't accept the possibility of change-
the birth of his children and the future they represented, so his son
Jupiter overthrew him to protect his mother. A story worth
contemplation during Saturnalia when we try to live as if prosperity
and equality are the norm but the time of change- the new year- is at
hand.

Be Well! (imperative)

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