Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The Age Issue.
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 6 Jun 2001 13:55:32 +0200

Salve Druse,

Tarquinia Euphimia scripsit:

> > That strikes me as rather elitist. Children whose parents are
> citizens might
> > only be here because their parents are citizens. A 17 year old who
> came here
> > by themselves, and signed up and everything, deserves to be a
> citizen as much
> > as someone who did something because their parent's made them.
> >
> > I can just hear the snotty day care now.
> > A: You're ugly, and and my daddy's a lawyer!
> > B: Yeah! Well, stupid, my mommy's a citizen of Nova Roma! So there!
> >

Lucius Sicinius Drusus scripsit:

> Elitist?
> No Realistic.
> If we limited ourselves to the study of history, and promoting the
> virtues I would have no objection to 13 year olds becoming citizens.
> There is more to Nova Roma than promoting Roman History and Morals.
> There's the Religio. That is the part of Nova Roma that makes
> accepting Minors a risk.
>
> I'm old enough to remember the 1970s smear campaign against "cults".
> Things like "deprogramers" who kidnapped people and used psycologial
> terrorist tatics to remove the "brainwashing". The campaign was largly
> driven by fact that these organizations accepted young members. I
> don't want to see Nova Roma become the victim of one of these campaigns.
>
> "Internet Pagan Cult Recruits Children" Do we want this kind of
> publicity? After getting it do we want the kind of teens that it would
> attract? Are you ready for the kind of smear campaign that the
> Unification Church suffered? Thier members are still sneered at as
> "Moonies"
>

Of course, the idea of having fundamentalists having their go at NR because
of the pagan aspect that involves minors is a bad possibility. But I have to
note that this does not count for all macronations. In the US this will
count to a degree, and I'm certain it will in sjiitic islamic countries like
Pakistan (bta groups like NR would be forbidden anyway in Pakistan). But
that's no problem in Europe, since we aren't so heavily into any sort of
religious fanatism here. Again, this could create a division, because you
wouldn't accept 17 year old X from the US but would accept 17 year old Z
from Europe.

But before thinking of a possible attack -- is NR not a non profit
organization? Or is it registered as a religious organization too? Another
argument could be that we can't possibly brainwash anyone, since this is an
internet organization (well, of course you can, but you have to be a real
dummy for that). Granted that as we continue to grow, we might run into
these problems. But are they likely? What damaging effects will NR have
(aside from stress and paranoia) on an adult that it will not have on a
youngster?

> Am I happy with the idea of limiting Minor citizenship to the children
> of Adult Citizens? No! But I do not want to penalize these children,
> to refuse them citizenship simply because it's not safe to allow
> others to become citizens at this time. Perhaps at some future date we
> will be able to allow any 17 old to become a full citizen, to allow
> even younger people to become Minor Citizens. For now let's allow
> those whom it's fairly safe to become citizens.
>

Well, I think that it's either an equal treatment for everyone, or no
treatment at all.

(snipped)

Vale bene!
Draco

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Back from Provinciae Argentina
From:	octavianuslucius@--------
Date:	Thu, 07 Jun 2001 02:46:31 -0000

Salvus sis C. Minuci Hadriane
I am very glad that you enjoyed your trip to Argentina and that you
are back again. And in the name of all the novaroman citizens from
Argentina and myself as propraetor of this province, I want to thank
you very much for recommending our province to visit. It has many
landscapes to visit indeed!!!
Habe fortunam bonam

Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Propraetor provinciae Argentinae

--- In novaroma@--------, "C. Minucius Hadrianus" <shinjikun@s...> wrote:
> Valete,
>
> Well, I'm back from my Argentine adventure

>Argentina was absolutely amazing, and
> I'm sorry I couldn't have seen more of it. I highly recommend that
anyone
> who has the opportunity to travel there, take it! I sadly wasn't
able to get
> the picture of myself in the Andes with the NR flag (like an idiot
I left
> the flag in the wrong bag when we went to El Calafate) but I will
post a few
> pics of the trip on the Nova Britannia website (on the off chance
anyone is
> interested ~_^).
>
>
> C. Minucius Hadrianus
> Legatus of Massachusetts
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The Age Issue.
From:	TSardonicus@--------
Date:	Wed, 6 Jun 2001 22:56:07 EDT

In a message dated 6/6/01 5:33:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
hendrik.meuleman@-------- writes:

> But before thinking of a possible attack -- is NR not a non profit
> organization? Or is it registered as a religious organization too? Another
> argument could be that we can't possibly brainwash anyone, since this is an
> internet organization (well, of course you can, but you have to be a real
> dummy for that). Granted that as we continue to grow, we might run into
> these problems. But are they likely? What damaging effects will NR have
> (aside from stress and paranoia) on an adult that it will not have on a
> youngster?

Salve,

Interesting stream of consciousness.

But, as you know we americans are heavily influenced by media. Mob
psychology. If a seventeen year old kid from Kansas joins NR because he saw
a bunch of cool dudes in armor doing an educational thing at his school and
the next day carries out his plan to put holes in all of the jocks that
dunked his head in a plate of pasta, we are one FBI investigation away from
history. And, the gods forbid any one of his relatives call Rikki Lake.

I know this sounds like an extreme case. It may never happen but, do you
want to be the man who says in a interview with CNN, "We were just trying to
emulate our ancestors"?

We may like it or we may not. No matter. The simple fact is we must abide
by the laws...and if we don't, sooner or later it will bite us in the ass.
Pardon my vulgarity.

Vale,
Sardonicus

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Subject:	[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem VII Idus Iunias (June 7th)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Thu, 7 Jun 2001 11:48:09 +0100

Salvete omnes

This is one of the dies nefasti (N), a day on which no legal action can take
place.

On this day the inner sanctum ('penus') of the temple of Vesta is
opened up for women (men cannot enter the temple); it will be closed again
on the 15th.
The 'matronae' go there with barefeet to pray to the Goddess of the hearth,
both public and private.

Today fishermen celebrate the "Piscatorum Ludi", offered by the Praetor
Urbanus at the Campus Martius in honour of river Tiber.

I remind that Iunius is the month of Iuno, month of the young ('iuuenes').

Valete bene in pace deorum
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Coins...and cultural ideolgy
From:	"Marcus Cassius Julianus" <cassius622@-------->
Date:	Thu, 07 Jun 2001 12:01:17 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "G. Noviodunus Ferriculus"
<Ga--------Nov--------nus@--------> wrote:

Salvete,

To briefly reply to the "lightbulb joke", everyone is more than
welcome to comment on ANY situation in NR. Everyone does, believe me.
The joke was simply an observation that everything that gets done
also gets critisized... no matter how good the deed, the intent, or
the result.

As far as coins, I'm afraid I haven't had the time to properly answer
all questions. The Roman Days event is coming up and there has been
little enough time to prepare for the trip.

Three points on coinage:

1. I put the denomination, "I Sestertius" on the coins deliberately,
knowing fully well the ancients never did this. Modern nations do,
and if want our coinage to be seen as anything even *close* to "real"
currency we need to do this. Also, it gives the coins a value for
collectors. (There is a whole field of micronational coin collecting.)
Thirdly, coins that have no value printed on them can be a difficulty
when there are many types of coins in circulation. We may well want
to produce other types of coin in the future, and putting the value
on them makes them far easier for citizens to deal with.

2. The coins were "machine die stamped" rather than hand struck in
the ancient manner on purpose. We are using these coins for trade...
and coins done in this manner are pretty much impossible to make
forgeries of. Hand struck coins would have been FAR more expensive to
produce. If we'd wanted to use them for trade we'd have had to value
them at $1 or $2 US each! THAT would mean they'd be worth a person's
while to make fake copies. Anyone with basic metal skills, (and there
are a lot of them, especially in the SCA) would be able to cast or
hand strike pretty much exact duplicates... and make almost a dollar
profit for every coin they forged! Meanwhile the NR treasury would be
ruined and we'd go bankrupt. The coins we have now are just plain too
cheap to make it worth anyone's while. The machine stamping cannot be
accurately produced through any home forging method. Casting, for
instance, would leave mold and "sprue" marks, which would be
instantly visible. Using "modern" methods has given us a coinage that
is instantly recognizable as coinage in the modern world, is usable
for trade, and can't be copied.

3. Just because we have modern "trade" coinage, does not mean we
cannot have "ancient" coinage in the future. I personally won't be
producing any such, since I don't find it as feasable or safe from
duplication, but that doesn't mean that you or anyone else can't
personally invest in such a project as I have with this. Feel free to
design and produce some ancient coinage! You can offer it through the
Macellum, join the Ordo Equester, and be a hero of the Senate and
People. :)

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

> Salvete G. Popilli Laenas L. Corneli Sardoniceque,
>
> What is wrong about discussing some topics? Isn't this the very goal
> of this NR Main list?
>
> Does your sarcasm mean, all people not saying "Aye" to everything
> coming from the higher political spheres should keep their mouth and
> watch? For example watch how a poor quality light bulb has to be
> changed every five minutes instead of putting a good one that will
> last two years? (just to address your comparison).
>
> Actually, if you had read my post, you would have seen that I don't
> have anything against coins. I do appreciate the coins we have but
> I'd prefer to have them more authentic. Like for example no longer
to
> mention "I sestertius" since this doesn't really make sense.
>
> Valete bene,
>
> --
> Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
> Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
> Friburgii Helvetiorum

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Coins...and cultural ideolgy
From:	"Marcus Cassius Julianus" <cassius622@-------->
Date:	Thu, 07 Jun 2001 12:01:40 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "G. Noviodunus Ferriculus"
<Ga--------Nov--------nus@--------> wrote:
> ksterne@-------- wrote:
>
> >> Q: How many Nova Romani does it take to change a light bulb?
> >> A: All of them. One to change it and the rest to stand
> >> around and talk about how it could have been done better.
> >> L. Cornelius Sardonicus
> >
> > Well said Sardonicus! And, thanks to Marcus Cassius for his
efforts
> > in producing the coins.
> > Gaius Popillius Laenas
> >
>
>
> Salvete G. Popilli Laenas L. Corneli Sardoniceque,
>
> What is wrong about discussing some topics? Isn't this the very goal
> of this NR Main list?
>
> Does your sarcasm mean, all people not saying "Aye" to everything
> coming from the higher political spheres should keep their mouth and
> watch? For example watch how a poor quality light bulb has to be
> changed every five minutes instead of putting a good one that will
> last two years? (just to address your comparison).
>
> Actually, if you had read my post, you would have seen that I don't
> have anything against coins. I do appreciate the coins we have but
> I'd prefer to have them more authentic. Like for example no longer
to
> mention "I sestertius" since this doesn't really make sense.
>
> Valete bene,
>
> --
> Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
> Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
> Friburgii Helvetiorum

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Coins...and cultural ideolgy
From:	"Marcus Cassius Julianus" <cassius622@-------->
Date:	Thu, 07 Jun 2001 12:02:02 -0000


Subject:	[novaroma] More on NR coinage...
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Thu, 7 Jun 2001 08:02:55 EDT

--- In novaroma@--------, "G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@i...>
wrote:

Salvete,

To briefly reply to the "lightbulb joke", everyone is more than welcome to
comment on ANY situation in NR. Everyone does, believe me. The joke was
simply an observation that everything that gets done also gets critisized...
no matter how good the deed, the intent, or the result.

As far as coins, I'm afraid I haven't had the time to properly answer all
questions. The Roman Days event is coming up and there has been little enough
time to prepare for the trip.

Three points on coinage:

1. I put the denomination, "I Sestertius" on the coins deliberately, knowing
fully well the ancients never did this. Modern nations do, and if want our
coinage to be seen as anything even *close* to "real" currency we need to do
this. Also, it gives the coins a value for collectors. (There is a whole
field of micronational coin collecting.)
Thirdly, coins that have no value printed on them can be a difficulty when
there are many types of coins in circulation. We may well want to produce
other types of coin in the future, and putting the value on them makes them
far easier for citizens to deal with.

2. The coins were "machine die stamped" rather than hand struck in the
ancient manner on purpose. We are using these coins for trade... and coins
done in this manner are pretty much impossible to make forgeries of. Hand
struck coins would have been FAR more expensive to produce. If we'd wanted to
use them for trade we'd have had to value them at $1 or $2 US each! THAT
would mean they'd be worth a person's while to make fake copies. Anyone with
basic metal skills, (and there are a lot of them, especially in the SCA)
would be able to cast or hand strike pretty much exact duplicates... and make
almost a dollar profit for every coin they forged! Meanwhile the NR treasury
would be ruined and we'd go bankrupt. The coins we have now are just plain
too cheap to make it worth anyone's while. The machine stamping cannot be
accurately produced through any home forging method. Casting, for instance,
would leave mold and "sprue" marks, which would be instantly visible. Using
"modern" methods has given us a coinage that is instantly recognizable as
coinage in the modern world, is usable for trade, and can't be copied.

3. Just because we have modern "trade" coinage, does not mean we cannot have
"ancient" coinage in the future. I personally won't be producing any such,
since I don't find it as feasable or safe from duplication, but that doesn't
mean that you or anyone else can't personally invest in such a project as I
have with this. Feel free to design and produce some ancient coinage! You can
offer it through the Macellum, join the Ordo Equester, and be a hero of the
Senate and People. :)

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

> Salvete G. Popilli Laenas L. Corneli Sardoniceque,
>
> What is wrong about discussing some topics? Isn't this the very goal
> of this NR Main list?
>
> Does your sarcasm mean, all people not saying "Aye" to everything
> coming from the higher political spheres should keep their mouth and
> watch? For example watch how a poor quality light bulb has to be
> changed every five minutes instead of putting a good one that will
> last two years? (just to address your comparison).
>
> Actually, if you had read my post, you would have seen that I don't
> have anything against coins. I do appreciate the coins we have but
> I'd prefer to have them more authentic. Like for example no longer to
> mention "I sestertius" since this doesn't really make sense.
>
> Valete bene,
>
> --
> Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
> Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
> Friburgii Helvetiorum

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Coins...and lightbulbs
From:	"Vaughan, Michael ST" <Michael.Vaughan@-------->
Date:	Thu, 7 Jun 2001 09:42:04 +0100

A. Corvus Septimius wrote:
>michael (m) E sigged thusly:
>>"In the future everything will be decided by me." -- Gaius Julius
>>Caesar
>Did Iulius Kaisar say this? Or is it from a play?

It's a quote ascribed to GJC in the closing chapters of Christian Meier's
book _Caesar_, I recall in response to Senate vacillation and hand-wringing
I think after the close of the civil war. He didn't give a source, which is
a great shame - the whole book needed more footnotes. :)

-michael (mainly) E
--
"In the future everything will be decided by me." -- Gaius Julius Caesar
Senatus Populusque Romanus 2754 AUC

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Dilbertus' handbook for magistrates
From:	"Raina Faolan" <GuruPoet@-------->
Date:	Thu, 07 Jun 2001 05:24:52 -0400

You know, Dilbert's a pretty cool comic. And yes I was late responding to
this.

--Aeternia

>From: "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: "Sodalitas Musarum" <ForTheMuses@-------->, "Nova Roma"
><novaroma@-------->
>Subject: [novaroma] Dilbertus' handbook for magistrates
>Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 18:16:03 +0200
>
>Salvete Quirites,
>
>Most of you will probably know the cartoon Dilbert, about the daily abuses
>of a boss on his employers. A criticism on capitalism, incompetence and
>corruption as it is today, but even beyond that it is so funny because
>everyone of us will have experienced similar situations. In a similar
>fashion, some of these things could be adopted to NR. Magistrates, don't
>feel offended! If you do, it's because truth hurts.
>
>
>DILBERTUS' HANDBOOK FOR MAGISTRATES
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>1. Introduction
>------------------
>
>This handbook is intended for magistrates who are frequently asking
>themselves the question: am I doing it the right way? If you're reading
>this, you probably aren't. You are probably still too humane, weak and
>compassionate to have what it takes to be a good magistrate. However, do
>not despair. This handbook will offer you some solutions to problems you
>have and will run into.
>
>
>2. Becoming a magistrate
>--------------------------------
>
>a) elections
>---------------
>
>That is probably the easiest part of all. If you talk regulary in the
>Forum, and keep relatively silent during the elections, with a programme as
>limited as possible, relying on name recognition mainly, you will probably
>get elected. Two problems, however, may occur:
> a.. another blockhead like you might decide to run for the elections,
>using similar tactics - in case you lose, become his friend, and try again
>for next elections
> b.. a scandal will break out - of course you know it is not true, but
>the citizens don't know this - for a solution, see the troubleshooting
>section
>Everything also depends on the office you are running for. Look at it like
>the scales of a balance. The lower the office, the easier you'll get
>elected, and the more respect you'll get. The more mediocre the office, the
>harder you get elected, and the less respect you'll get. The higher the
>officer, the easier you'll get elected, and the more ego you'll get (note:
>never use that term - instead, make use of the word "dignitas"). Your
>success will also depend on whether you've been a magistrate previously or
>not. Whether you've actually done anything in that office other than
>gathering century points for basically filling a spot with your presence
>doesn't really matter. Key point is that if you really want to be
>successful, you have to have some patience by doing your time in a low
>office first (note: never pick Rogator - you'll get a lot of respect if you
>run for this office, but you will not be envied).
>
>
>b) making friends
>----------------------
>
>Beforehand, it is usually a good idea to make some friends. By the term
>friends, we of course do not mean the type of human beings you would
>entrust with your heart and soul, because you simply don't have a heart nor
>soul. That's a good thing. However, in order to make friends or allies, you
>must take a moderate position when you're starting out low. Since people
>love mediocrity, and a person they can identify themselves with (or, a role
>model), they will love you. You must be vague, and talk a lot about the
>virtues. That's as far as creating your popular support goes.
>
>The most important thing, of course, is to have friends among the
>establishment. If you were admitted in Nova Roma in the first place, there
>must be at least a few power-mad men or women in command that are a bit
>like you. Frequently contact them and applaud their actions - even though
>most of their actions will simply consist of talking. Tell them you admire
>their efforts for Nova Roma. Tell them you think they are funny, and are
>interesting people. Even though they are interesting from a psychological
>perspective, they are usually single-minded and not funny at all. You could
>also ask to become their scriba. That's a good thing. It's a little office
>that links you to the person professionally, but where you're basically
>doing nothing anyway (note: becoming a Censor's scriba is a good thing, but
>ensure to have a lot of leaves of absence, or you might actually wind up
>doing some work). Endorse these people publically, but if they get too
>unpopular, keep quiet on the Forum.
>
>A small addendum on gentes: the larger, the better. Preferrably be
>paterfamilias of it, and it you're not, become a prominent member of it.
>Gentiles, even if they do not like you, will probably be a base of support.
>Under any circumstance, don't become a gentilis of someone of your friends,
>but rather your enemies, if you must. In latter position, you can more
>easily tear down the dignity of your pater- or materfamilias.
>
>
>3. Being a magistrate
>---------------------------
>
>a) oaths
>-----------
>
>Congratulations, you made it! The first action you must undertake is the
>oath of office. Cut and paste it from another oath, replace every reference
>to the other name with your own, and then send it off as fast as possible.
>Frequently return to the sacred oath if someone else breaks it by
>abandoning office is a good thing, even if you aren't upholding a word of
>that oath yourself. People will take you seriously with an oath, and will
>respect you even more because you stress the importance of them.
>
>b) actions
>-------------
>
>The best type of magistrate you can be is one that has the power to publish
>edicta. Every three months, it's a good thing to post an edictum, written
>in bureaucratical language to make it seem important, that basically does
>not contain much (note: make sure that it does not harm yourself or your
>allies in any way). Edicta that actually have something to say should be
>much longer, and even more bureacratical. Use the erratic Latin you know
>(if someone criticizes you on your incorrect use of Latin, see
>troubleshooting).
>
>Frequently add new titles to your name that seem impressive, and frequently
>step down from another office you're holding (note: make sure that office
>goes to one of your friends) to enlarge your dignitas, and uphold the image
>of the hard-working magistrate. If you actually happen to run into some
>work, have your colleague do it. If you don't have a colleague, or if
>you're colleague is like you, "threaten" to publish (simply by saying:
>"we'll have to legislate this properly") an edictum and talk about it in
>the Senate. Stall the really important decisions, and leave them in the
>hands of someone else (preferrably a scriba), while you must still get the
>glory. Say you are interested in religion and culture too, and become a
>listmember without contributing. Try to pick along a religious position if
>you can; they greatly enhance your image while you yourself are not
>required to do anything at all.
>
>Talk some in the Forum. Depending on how high your position is, you will be
>able to afford yourself more pompous and statist viewpoints. In every
>speech you make, never forget to stress the importance of the state, and
>its seriousness. Nice but not required is to be vague (note: make it appear
>so that it is poetic), so that people will come to see you as a
>philosopher, too. This will earn you respect from the dummies, who will
>obviously make it to the next generation of magistrates, but you will also
>get some opposition. This is dealth with in next section.
>
>c) troubleshooting
>----------------------
>
>Inevitably, you are probably going to get opposition. The higher your
>office, the more complaints you're probably going to get. Here's how to
>react to opposition:
> a.. never let a chance pass on by to correct them, even if their
>mistake is futile (= look at how smart I am)
> b.. if you are met with a small opposition, claim that it is simply
>ungrateful for the massive work you have done for all the people
> c.. if you are met with a medium opposition, get yourself some
>henchmen - they are usually recognized by their frequent use of the extreme
>political arguments, their inability at empathy, and are royal pains in the
>podeces (kind of like you, but less smart) - and they will do much of the
>clean-up work for you
> d.. if you are met with a heavy opposition, either simply shut up for
>a large time, or try to effectuate a counter-scandal (preferrably by the
>use of the aforementioned henchmen)
> e.. if you know that what people say is true, say you feel attacked in
>your dignitas
> f.. if your opposition is persistent, say they are a bad example of
>Romanitas (= saying you are a good example)
> g.. if you get comments about the quality of your Latin, make the
>critics appear like pedantic people
> h.. frequently complain about the mass of work you have to do
> i.. talk beside the issue; instead do not mention names, but let the
>ones who you intend to feel hurt really feel what you mean (it takes some
>skill to do this: try to practice it first)
> j.. if your opposition is persistent, even after being treated by
>above solution, there are three options left
> a.. try to turn them into your allies (by promising them power,
>for example); if you they are on the verge of beating you, make sure they
>join you
> b.. suggest an empty compromise, and then start backstabbing them
>(again, preferrably through the use of henchmen)
> c.. politely suggesting them to leave Nova Roma, because they will
>never change anyway (neither will you, but that is of course out of the
>question)
>Things you must, under any circumstance, not do:
> a.. say what you really think of person x or y
> b.. show your true political colours, even if you are a naked
>opportunist
>
>4. Ensuring your future
>-----------------------------
>
>Since you cannot be a magistrate forever, you must recruit a next
>generation of people who think like you, and do the same things like you.
>Among your previously mentioned henchmen, some of these may be found.
>However, the ones you can best keep an eye on are those with a limited
>point of view, no real opinion other than that of the likes of you, and
>carry the seeds in them to act like you. You do not have to like these
>people, but they will support you. Support them. Endorse them. Make them
>scribae or clientes.
>
>And Fortuna will smile upon you (on the other side of the mirror).
>
>
>
>
>***---***
>
>Valete bene,
>Draco
>
>
>
>"Jeder f�r sich, und Gott gegen allen."
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Nova Roma hospitality
From:	pjane@--------
Date:	Thu, 07 Jun 2001 15:57:54 -0000

Nova Roma has reserved a room and will offer a "hospitality suite" on
Saturday night to participants in Roman Days. Novaromani and re-
enactors will be welcomed at the Red Roof Inn after Merlynia's feast.
Snacks and beverages will be provided.

Thanks go to Consul Flavius Vedius Germanicus for the idea, I believe.

It should be an excellent event! Our thanks to Legio XX for
graciously allowing us to participate.

Patricia Cassia

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Subject:	[novaroma] ATTN: Census of Provincia Lusitania
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Thu, 7 Jun 2001 18:04:20 +0100

Antonius Gryllus Graecus Propraetor Lusitaniae civibus Lusitaniae S.P.D.

I have recently performed a Census in my province. The only citizens who
answered it were:

- Emilia Camuna Brigantia (Legata Lus. Prov.)
- Quintus Arrius Flavius

The following email addresses were invalid:
- antonio.tereno@-------- (Tiberius Valerius Hispanicus Turrinus)
- galbadot@-------- (Titus Galba)
- edgaRum@-------- (Publius Macareus Russus)

The following citizens have not answered the Census:
- Lucia Grylla Valeria
- Antonius Iulius Lusitanus
- Marcus Lusitanicus Petrus
- Marcus Papirius Lupus

The official intimation included the warning that failure to answer the
Census would mean that the citizen was not interested to remain a citizen of
Nova Roma. If the citizens who for any reason failed to answer the Census do
not send me a notice before the Kalends of Quinctilis, I will start a
process to remove their citizenship.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Please help me translate this to Latin
From:	tflacco@--------
Date:	Thu, 7 Jun 2001 14:17:15 EDT

How would you translate this statement into Latin?
I accept but do not condone.
Or
To Accept but not Condone.
Or
Accepted Not Condoned

Either translation or both would be very helpful.
This is my motto, and I would love to have a Latin translation of it.
Scipio Flaccus Americus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Please help me translate this to Latin
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Thu, 7 Jun 2001 13:35:16 US/Central

Salve Scipio Flacce

> How would you translate this statement into Latin?
> I accept but do not condone.

Accipio sed non ignosco

It's possible that there's a better word than 'ignosco', as it means to pardon
or to forgive. I don't have my dictionary with me right now, but I'll look it
up this evening and make sure.

Vale
T Labienus Fortunatus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Please help me translate this to Latin
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Thu, 7 Jun 2001 11:50:58 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes.

--- labienus@-------- wrote:
> Salve Scipio Flacce
>
> > How would you translate this statement into Latin?
> > I accept but do not condone.
>
> Accipio sed non ignosco
>
> It's possible that there's a better word than 'ignosco', as it means
> to pardon
> or to forgive. I don't have my dictionary with me right now, but
> I'll look it
> up this evening and make sure.

My version would be: "Accipio sed non approbo".

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Please help me translate this to Latin
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Thu, 7 Jun 2001 14:07:19 US/Central

Salvete

> My version would be: "Accipio sed non approbo".

Much better. Use this, mi Flacce.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus

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Subject:	[novaroma] NR T-Shirts
From:	Sextus Cornelius Cotta <sextus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 07 Jun 2001 12:43:14 -0500

Salvete,
Are NR T-Shirt's still available for sale? If so can they be ordered
by PayPal like the new coins(I just
ordered 40)? I plan to get one and some bumperstickers also.

Vale, Sextus Cornelius Cotta

Sent from the iMac of Sextus Cornelius Cotta
ICQ# 29580250
AIM: SextusCornelius

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] ATTN: Census of Provincia Lusitania
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Thu, 7 Jun 2001 14:57:18 US/Central

Tribunus Plebis T Labienus Quiritibus SPD

> The official intimation included the warning that
> failure to answer the Census would mean that the
> citizen was not interested to remain a citizen of
> Nova Roma. If the citizens who for any reason failed
> to answer the Census do not send me a notice before
> the Kalends of Quinctilis, I will start a process to
> remove their citizenship.

Propraetor Graecus has said that he would "start a process" to revoke the
citizenship of the non-responsive cives of Lusitania. While I do not expect
that he will attempt anything unconstitutional, I would like to take this
opportunity to speak to the issue at hand.

The constitution states, in section II.A.4, "Citizenship may be involuntarily
revoked by those means that shall be established by law,..."

Currently the only laws that apply are a) the consitutional provision for the
Comitia Centuriata to try cases that involve permanent removal of citizenship
and b) the constitution's implication that censores may add and remove names
from the album civium.

While a) implies that powers other than the Comitia Centuriata may temporarily
remove citizenship, it also implies that the Comitia Centuriata is the only
body that may do so permanently.

B) is problematic. When the constitution mentions the censores' role with
respect to the album senatorium and album equestris, it explicitly gives them
the power to add and remove names on those lists (with the prescription that
amending the album senatorium be "according to qualifications set by law"). It
does not mention that power with regard to the album civium and album gentium,
instead saying that the censores may "maintain" them. Are we to take this to
mean that the censores are prohibited from adding names to and removing names
from the album civium unless empowered by the law, or does it mean the
opposite, giving the censores the power to add and remove cives at will? I
much prefer the former option to the latter. However, there is no law that
gives the censores the ability to add names, and they clearly must have the
power to do that.

So, without a law to guide us, we must look to precedent. There is one
censorial edictum on record that deals with silent cives. The Edict Regarding
Failure of Paterfamilias to Respond to Applications simply closes gentes with
unresponsive patres and matres familias, rather than removing their citizenship
or passing the stewardship of their gentes to other, more active, gentiles.
The latter course is somewhat unconstitutional, as that document gives each
gens the "right to determine its own course of action" except where that right
is circumscribed by the constitution and the law. (Here, it seems that the
censores have chosen to assume that their edicta do not sufficiently qualify as
law to allow them to change the pater or mater familias of a gens. If I am
wrong about this, I hope that one of them will correct me.)

Therefore, as we have a precedent--admittedly tenuous--that edicta should not
be used to significantly infringe upon constitutional guarantees with regard to
gentes, I choose to accept it as indiciative of how I should approach
censorial actions in regard to other constitutional guarantees. I do this
because the consitution implies that a permanent involuntary loss of
citizenship should be subject to the will of the whole people, and should
therefore be regulated by leges enacted by the Comitia Centuriata.

And so, until such a lex is passed, I will intercede against any attempt to
revoke the citizenship of silent cives through other means. I suggest that the
consules should include such a lex in the centurial assembly that Consul Vedius
has promised later this year, and I offer them any help that they might desire
in crafting it.

Valete

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Subject:	[novaroma] Roman Days
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Thu, 7 Jun 2001 16:32:14 -0400 (EDT)

Citizens of Nova Roma;

For those who may be interested, I will be attending Roman Days in
Baltimore this weekend. I hope to meet some more of the many friends
there in a regalia of face-to-face, and sip a few sips of Falernian, and
ingest some of the wonderful dishes planned by the "Lady of the Food
Garden."

I wonder if I might beg a boon of some kind individual, to place a chair
under thier fly for a frequent resting spot. My "shank's mare" is not
doing well these days and I suspect that these sandals I have just this
P.M. recieved will not improve the situation. Coming by Plane, I will
have neither tent nor Chair.

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Please help me translate this to Latin
From:	tflacco@--------
Date:	Thu, 7 Jun 2001 17:12:25 EDT

In a message dated 06/07/2001 3:02:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
salixastur@-------- writes:

<< Accipio sed non approbo >>
Would that mean accept but not approve? That would be even better!

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Please help me translate this to Latin
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Thu, 7 Jun 2001 14:36:00 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes.

--- tflacco@-------- wrote:
> In a message dated 06/07/2001 3:02:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> salixastur@-------- writes:
>
> << Accipio sed non approbo >>
> Would that mean accept but not approve? That would be even better!

Yes, that's exactly what it means.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Chair for Audens
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Thu, 07 Jun 2001 19:44:47 -0400

Salve Senator,

I will have a chair there for you! What time does the event begin?

Nerva

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