| Subject: |
[novaroma] Sorry |
| From: |
octavianuslucius@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 09 Jun 2001 00:39:19 -0000 |
|
Sorry, I forgot to write the verb "know"in the following sentence.
"Unfortunately I do not from what region of Italy came the
grandparents of my mother."
So, the correct one is the following :
"Unfortunately I do not know from what region of Italy came the
grandparents of my mother."
Bene valete et habete fortunam bonam
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] National Census - My opinion. |
| From: |
Fortunatus <labienus@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 08 Jun 2001 20:37:56 -0500 |
|
Salvete Luci Corneli Quiritesque
> I. A Census of all citizens of Nova Roma should be done yearly.
> This would be the responsiblity of the Censors. However, as Nova
> Roma grows, it will be likely that a yearly census might become an
> undue burden. The Censors may petition the Senate for an exemption
> up to a year. This means that instead of a yearly census, the Senate
> can upon passing a Senatus Consultum, authorize the Censors to
> conduct a Census every two years. The Senatus Consultum can be a one
> time exemption or it can establish the procedural change permanently.
A passing thought: I wonder if it would be reasonable to say that each
censor must conduct a census by the ides of September in his or her
second year of office.
Regardless, it does seem that allowing for the future is a good idea.
The ancient census was conducted once every four years (later once every
five). We are soon to enter upon our fourth year in existence. Simply
making the national census follow the ancient timetable is a viable
option.
> 3. To help facilitate the Censors in this work, Censors would now be
> eligible to have 2 Quaestors.
Why quaestores? Quaestores were financial officers with a secondary
military duty, not assistants to censores. And, the censores have
already got the ability to empower as many scriba as they desire to aid
them in their duties. There's no reason to make this unauthentic post.
I see no reason that such assistants need to be elected by the people,
as they will not be enacting leges, issuing edicta, or even setting
public policy. Also, scriba can be from any provincia, so they can act
where there are no provincial governors just as easily as quaestores.
> B. Phone calls. I know this can be costly. Maybe this is where we
> can incorporate some cooperation between the local governors and the
> Censors (coordinated by the Quaestors). Or done via the Internet.
And done via scribae local to the area where there is no local
government.
> 7. If citizens fail to respond to the contact attempts. That person
> will no longer be considered a citizen of Nova Roma. His name will
> be stricken from the Album Civium and if he/she is a Pater/Mater, the
> Censors will have the discretion to appoint a successor to that gens
> (if available).
I agree entirely with giving the censores the ability to change the
pater or mater familias of a gens when necessary. I'm a bit leery of
simply revoking citizenship for non-responsiveness, but it also seems
relatively reasonable considering that by this time at least five
attempts to contact the person will have failed.
> 8. If an person who was once a citizen but was removed due to a
> National Census, he will have to comply with the stipulations of the
> Resignation Lex.
I dislike this. In order to resign one's citizenship, one must state
one's desire to do so before three witnesses. If the civis in question
has not done this act--has not *actively* participated in his or her
exile--then he or she has not resigned his or her citizenship and does
not deserve to be penalized by that lex. There are legitimate reasons
for being incommunicado for the better part of a year (homelessness,
war, etc.) that we cannot necessarily foresee. And, while it is
unlikely that someone in those circumstances will suddenly return to
activity within six months of a census, we also cannot foresee what
penalties shall be imposed upon voluntary resigness in the future. At
the very least, returning non-responsive cives should be given the
opportunity to petition for an exception to this.
Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Ipsa scientia potestas est."
-Francis Bacon
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] National Census - My opinion. |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 08 Jun 2001 18:56:26 -0700 |
|
on 6/8/01 6:37 PM, Fortunatus at labienus@-------- wrote:
Salvete Luci Corneli Quiritesque
> I. A Census of all citizens of Nova Roma should be done yearly.
> This would be the responsiblity of the Censors. However, as Nova
> Roma grows, it will be likely that a yearly census might become an
> undue burden. The Censors may petition the Senate for an exemption
> up to a year. This means that instead of a yearly census, the Senate
> can upon passing a Senatus Consultum, authorize the Censors to
> conduct a Census every two years. The Senatus Consultum can be a one
> time exemption or it can establish the procedural change permanently.
A passing thought: I wonder if it would be reasonable to say that each
censor must conduct a census by the ides of September in his or her
second year of office.
Sulla: We cant. Becuase of the staggered terms, that is why I spelled it
out as I did.
Regardless, it does seem that allowing for the future is a good idea.
Sulla: Thank you.
The ancient census was conducted once every four years (later once every
five). We are soon to enter upon our fourth year in existence. Simply
making the national census follow the ancient timetable is a viable
option.
Sulla: Right, I am aware that it was held in term with their Lustrum of
office.
> 3. To help facilitate the Censors in this work, Censors would now be
> eligible to have 2 Quaestors.
Why quaestores?
Sulla: Well I tend to view Quaestors as more than just financial officers.
I viewed them as Administrative Assistants as well. I also think that the
People should vote on this....Basically here is how I think it will be. You
will have the two Censors doing mandatory Censor duties, which take quite a
substantial amount of time. You will then have two "Quaestors" who will
serve as assistants to the Censors with the main duty as assisting the
Censors with the national Census. As for Scriba, the Censors can appoint
any necessary to assist with the National Census or the Quaestors can work
with the local governement to facilitate the census. The reason I prefer
Quaestors, as opposed to Scriba too, is that this will be a HUGE endeavor.
I think that accountability will need to be spread beyond the Censors given
the importance of this endeavor too. Scriba are not oath taking magistrates
(though some do). Quaestors are responsbile to the Censors who are senior
magistrates, as well as to the People and to the Gods.
Quaestores were financial officers with a secondary
military duty, not assistants to censores. And, the censores have
already got the ability to empower as many scriba as they desire to aid
them in their duties. There's no reason to make this unauthentic post.
I see no reason that such assistants need to be elected by the people,
as they will not be enacting leges, issuing edicta, or even setting
public policy. Also, scriba can be from any provincia, so they can act
where there are no provincial governors just as easily as quaestores.
> B. Phone calls. I know this can be costly. Maybe this is where we
> can incorporate some cooperation between the local governors and the
> Censors (coordinated by the Quaestors). Or done via the Internet.
And done via scribae local to the area where there is no local
government.
> 7. If citizens fail to respond to the contact attempts. That person
> will no longer be considered a citizen of Nova Roma. His name will
> be stricken from the Album Civium and if he/she is a Pater/Mater, the
> Censors will have the discretion to appoint a successor to that gens
> (if available).
I agree entirely with giving the censores the ability to change the
pater or mater familias of a gens when necessary. I'm a bit leery of
simply revoking citizenship for non-responsiveness, but it also seems
relatively reasonable considering that by this time at least five
attempts to contact the person will have failed.
Sulla: Thank you, I am trying to make this as exhaustive as possible. I
think that at least 5 attempts at contact, via various mediums would exhaust
all possible remedies.
> 8. If an person who was once a citizen but was removed due to a
> National Census, he will have to comply with the stipulations of the
> Resignation Lex.
I dislike this. In order to resign one's citizenship, one must state
one's desire to do so before three witnesses. If the civis in question
has not done this act--has not *actively* participated in his or her
exile--then he or she has not resigned his or her citizenship and does
not deserve to be penalized by that lex. There are legitimate reasons
for being incommunicado for the better part of a year (homelessness,
war, etc.) that we cannot necessarily foresee. And, while it is
unlikely that someone in those circumstances will suddenly return to
activity within six months of a census, we also cannot foresee what
penalties shall be imposed upon voluntary resigness in the future. At
the very least, returning non-responsive cives should be given the
opportunity to petition for an exception to this.
Sulla: Ok, what do you suggest, Senator. Should the Censors have the
discretion to decide if an inactive citizen who was removed from the roles
can be admitted early? I am willing to compromise on this. However, we
must all recognize that being a citizen is also a duty, and we, the Censors
are going through alot of work and effort in trying to contact each citizen
at least 5 times. I think most people should notify the censors when they
move, change phone numbers or change email addresses. For those extreme
cases, I can see about granting this compromise. Is this satisfactory?
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma
Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Oops - was regarding National Census - My opinion. |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 08 Jun 2001 19:10:22 -0700 |
|
Ave,
The first part of your response..I read it wrong...we could spell it out
that way...but the way I had it stated would give some flexibility to the
Censors and for that matter the Senate...depending on the situation.
I must not respond so quickly, especially when I am at work! <g>
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] National Census - My opinion. |
| From: |
Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 8 Jun 2001 18:04:04 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salvete omnes..
I am personally in agreement with the Censor in his
previous post, and believe we should support any
endeavor by himself to see his framework made law. If
the Censor would allow, I would like to comment on the
last two provisions of his framework.
--- "L. Cornelius Sulla Felix"
<alexious@--------> wrote:
" ...7. If citizens fail to respond to the contact
attempts. That person will no longer be considered a
citizen of Nova Roma. His name will be stricken
from the Album Civium and if he/she is a Pater/Mater,
the Censors will have the discretion to appoint a
successor to that gens (if available).
8. If an person who was once a citizen but was
removed due to a National Census, he will have to
comply with the stipulations of the Resignation Lex.
Respectfully submitted,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma"
I believe the censor makes a case for removal of any
person who does not respond to a valid census. Here,
I believe, would a pertinent application of a head
count law. Supposing the best about inactive
citizens, and any community is composed largely of an
anomic citizenry, we could apply those persons who do
not respond to a census to the head count tribes, as
well as assess them increased taxes (not unlike back
taxes) should they rejoin within a years time, or some
other period. This would allow us to maintain them on
our rolls, without resorting to immediately ounitive
procedures. Another consideration might be to offer
active citizens who for some reason cannot immediately
pay there taxes the ability to assume leadership of a
failed gens, increase or contact its membership, and
provide a future body of citizens, and taxpayers. In
lieu of a (possible) one year tax exemption such a
person could attend to the protection of a large
gentes base. On this thread, it might also be
productive to maintain an inactive gens, and its
inactive members, in our official rolls to this end.
In gratitude,
Ias.
=====
Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs Peregrinvs
(this is a post for which I accept all responsibility)
"The cosmos works by harmony of tensions, like the lyre and the bow."
"Time is a game played beautifully by children."
Heraclitus of Ephesus
HeraclitusFreehold@--------
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: National Census - My opinion. |
| From: |
"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 09 Jun 2001 02:27:14 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, "L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave Citizens of Nova Roma,
>
> With the discussion of a census the "hot topic" currnetly in Nova
Roma, I
> would like to make my opinion known on this matter. I have been
discussing
> this very issue with a couple of citizens, and now I think its time
I tried
> to formulate this so that everyone can get an idea of just where I am on
> this issue. I speak for myself. My colleauge, if you will notice
will also
> be getting a copy of this very email. I hope he will add his opinion
> sometime soon on this topic.
>
> I will fashion this as a proposed Lex. For this is something I
would like
> to have promulgated, eventually.
>
> I. A Census of all citizens of Nova Roma should be done yearly.
This would
> be the responsiblity of the Censors. However, as Nova Roma grows,
it will
> be likely that a yearly census might become an undue burden. The
Censors
> may petition the Senate for an exemption up to a year. This means that
> instead of a yearly census, the Senate can upon passing a Senatus
Consultum,
> authorize the Censors to conduct a Census every two years. The Senatus
> Consultum can be a one time exemption or it can establish the procedural
> change permanently.
>
> 2. If the Censors request a larger gap of time between Census
(beyond the 2
> years) This must be passed via the Comitia Centuriata. [In my honest
> opinion, I feel that these changes should go in the following
timeframe: 1
> year, 2 years, 5 years and then 10 years.]
Drusus:
Personally I prefer sticking to a historical model of a Census every 5
years, ie 2755, 2760, 2765 etc. However I would have no objection to
having a Census held inbetween these 5 years Censuses if the Censors
and/or the Senate felt that we needed one. In other words Require a
Census in years divisable by five, and leave other Censuses to the
discrition of the Censors or the Senate.
>
> 3. To help facilitate the Censors in this work, Censors would now be
> eligible to have 2 Quaestors. It will be the chief function of the
> Quaestors to facilitate and assist the Censors in this work. The
Censors
> and Quaestors may work with the local provincial governors to facilitate
> this project. [The reason I feel the Censors need Quaestors are two
fold.
> One they are elected by the People, Secondly, they would be
magistrates who
> would be able to work in areas where there are no provincial governors.]
>
Drusus:
Allthough Quaestors are normally concerned with finances there is a
precedent for a Magistrate apointing someone to take part in a Census,
even though that is a task that is normally outside thier duties. This
Edicta
http://www.stolaf.edu/people/kchanson/census.html#3
designated a Prefectus Alae to handle a Census in Egypt in 104 CE. Now
if a Cavalry Commander could be designated to hold part of a Census in
Antiquita, I see no reason why a Quaestor can't recive this task in
Nova Roma.
> 4. The Census of all citizen of Nova Roma must be done by the Ides of
> September, in the year that the Census is due. This will give the
Censors
> enough time to clean the roles and make adjustments before the
alignment of
> century points and century placements must be completed. [This must
be done
> during November, according to the Constitution].
>
> 5. The Census will consist of the following:
>
> A. Active citizens are those citizens that do not need to be
contacted by
> the Censors to determine if they are apart of Nova Roma:
>
> 1. Those citizens who vote are considered ACTIVE.
> 2. Those citizens who pay taxes are considered ACTIVE.
Drusus:
An Excellent Idea, there is no point in wasting time and resources on
citizens who have allready proven they are active.
>
> 6. Inactive citizens are those citizens who will need to be
contacted by
> the National Census. THe following will lay down some of the
procedures to
> make certain we get the best response in any National Census:
>
> A. Bulk email. At least two attempts should be done to contact
citizen via
> this avenue.
> B. Phone calls. I know this can be costly. Maybe this is where we can
> incorporate some cooperation between the local governors and the Censors
> (coordinated by the Quaestors). Or done via the Internet.
Discretion lies
> with the Censors and the Censorial Quaestors. The attempts may vary, in
> this avenue, but at least two attempts would be required. [There
has to be
> some kind of documentation either via email or snail mail by the
applicant
> to confirm the information gained via the phone, this confirmation
will need
> to go to the Censors]
> C. Snail mail. Again, this might be an avenue that there can be some
> cooperation between the Office of Censor and local governments.
However, it
> must be impearative that any documentation received must be
forwarded to the
> Censors office by the Ides of September.
>
Drusus:
I would also suggest that a list of citizens who are in danger of
being striken from the Album be posted here on the Ides of August.
This will give people who may have more recent Contact information a
chance to contact these citizens and warn them that they need to get
in touch with the Censors before the Ides of September.
Also Pater/Maters should recive a list of any Gens members that may be
stricken in advance, as they may have more recent contact information,
and can instruct the citizens to contact the Censors.
> 7. If citizens fail to respond to the contact attempts. That
person will
> no longer be considered a citizen of Nova Roma. His name will be
stricken
> from the Album Civium and if he/she is a Pater/Mater, the Censors
will have
> the discretion to appoint a successor to that gens (if available).
>
Drusus:
Well this is a little milder than the leges of Antiquita, where being
Incensus was a crime punshible by Death under the Kings) and by
enslavement under the Republic, in addition to the loss of citizenship.
Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Revoking Citizenship (was ATTN: Census of Provincia Lusitania) |
| From: |
"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 09 Jun 2001 03:00:21 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> wrote:
> Salvete omnes; et salve, L. Sicini Druse.
>
SNIP
>
> I can see your point, Druse. You know that I am always in favour of
> restoring Roman tradition. However, I must disagree with you on this
> one.
>
> Consider this: what are we giving to these unactive citizens? What are
> they taking from us? Obviously, nothing. I can understand your
> frustration at seeing names on the Album Civium you have never heard
> from, because the same thing happens to me in Hispania Provincia. But I
> think we should always think about including rather than excluding.
>
> Don't get me wrong. I am completely in favour of a Census. But I see it
> as one of the ways to check true identities. Of course, if a citizen's
> identity could not verified on the Yellow Pages (or some other kind of
> public list), and if they do not respond to three (according to Sulla's
> idea) petitions to provide identification, they should be discarded as
> "unreachable". But not because of their inactivity.
>
> I can see a system in which the Censores would appoint a scriba in each
> province to check the identity of old (at first) and new (after that)
> citizens under the strict control of the Censores. This "census" could
> be repeated each five years (according to Roman tradition), to see if
> the information submitted in the application form is still correct (or
> to see if those citizens are still alive ;-) ). The ones failing to be
> identified would be discarded as "unreachable", but NOT because of
> their lack of participation.
>
> Besides, those citizens deemed "unreachable" should be allowed to
> reapply for citizenship IMMEDIATELY, as they would have not resigned.
>
> As a last word, parafrasing Cato, I am also of the opinion that
> citizenship applications should be handled during Comitia, although not
> allowing those new citizens to vote until those Comitia had ended.
>
Salve,
As far as participation goes I don't care if a Citizen dosen't vote,
pay his/her taxes, or never makes a post to this list. That is thier
choice, not mine.
However I don't think responding to a Census every 5 years is aking
very much.
Right Now we don't have a lot to offer our civies, but I'm hoping to
see that change. I wish for more meetings, for events like Roman Days,
but sponsered by Nova Roma, rather than Legio XX. Things that require
planning, and having the Album clogged up with Citizens that no longer
have any intrest in Nova Roma makes this harder.
Also there is the problem with inactive Paters/Maters. Closing the
Gens is only a partial answer to this problem. Someone may really want
the Nomen of Nemo, only to find that they can't get it because someone
became a Pater 2 years ago, hung around for a few months, and moved on
to something else, and hasn't given Nova Roma a thought since.
The truth about most of the citizens that would be striken is they
simply left without bothering to give us a formal resignation. Call it
a "Resignation" by apathy.
Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] National Census - My opinion. |
| From: |
Fortunatus <labienus@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 08 Jun 2001 22:08:34 -0500 |
|
Salvete Luci Corneli et Omnes
> Simply making the national census follow the ancient timetable is a
> viable option.
>
> Sulla: Right, I am aware that it was held in term with their Lustrum
> of office.
Hmm. I mistated. I should have said that I find using the ancient
timetable to be the *preferable* option.
> Sulla: Well I tend to view Quaestors as more than just financial
> officers.
They're not. The censores did occasionally co-opt other magistrates to
help them in their duties, but there's no need for it. Scribae suffice
for the census.
> substantial amount of time. You will then have two "Quaestors" who
> will serve as assistants to the Censors with the main duty as
> assisting the Censors with the national Census.
A job which scribae could perform just as well.
> As for Scriba, the Censors can appoint any necessary to assist with
> the National Census or the Quaestors can work with the local
> governement to facilitate the census.
Still, quaestores are not necessary for this. Scribae suffice.
> The reason I prefer Quaestors, as opposed to Scriba too, is that this
> will be a HUGE endeavor.
Sure. If you're thinking of reward for the effort, ask the Senate to
give extra century points to those scribae who perform the census well.
> I think that accountability will need to be spread beyond the Censors
> given the importance of this endeavor too.
Here you have a good point. Still, I think scribae suffice. The census
was the reason for the censores' creation, after all. It should be
their responsibility.
> Scriba are not oath taking magistrates (though some do).
An oath could easily be required of the scribae performing the census.
> Quaestors are responsbile to the Censors who are
> senior magistrates, as well as to the People and to the Gods.
Scribae are responsible to the censores, who are...
> Sulla: Ok, what do you suggest, Senator. Should the Censors have the
> discretion to decide if an inactive citizen who was removed from the
> roles can be admitted early?
If a civis who was removed from the rolls (scrolls are rolled; they
don't play roles) due to non-responsiveness shows back up, and is
granted an exception for hardship, then he or she is put back on the
rolls. It's up to that civis' gens whether to reinstate him or her as
pater/materfamilias if they wish. The only real problem arises from
century points due to "time served", which shouldn't be given while
incensus.
> I am willing to compromise on this. However, we must all
> recognize that being a citizen is also a duty, and we, the
> Censors are going through alot of work and effort in trying to
> contact each citizen at least 5 times.
The gratitude and sympathy due to a magistrate because of the effort he
or she puts into his or her job is beside the point when writing law.
> I think most people should notify the censors when they
> move, change phone numbers or change email addresses. For those
> extreme cases, I can see about granting this compromise. Is this
> satisfactory?
Yes. Some language providing for exceptions due to hardship ought to be
included.
Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Ipsa scientia potestas est."
-Francis Bacon
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: National Census - My opinion. |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 08 Jun 2001 21:11:45 -0700 |
|
on 6/8/01 7:27 PM, Lucius Sicinius Drusus at lsicinius@-------- wrote:
<SNIP>
> 2. If the Censors request a larger gap of time between Census
(beyond the 2
> years) This must be passed via the Comitia Centuriata. [In my honest
> opinion, I feel that these changes should go in the following
timeframe: 1
> year, 2 years, 5 years and then 10 years.]
Drusus:
Personally I prefer sticking to a historical model of a Census every 5
years, ie 2755, 2760, 2765 etc. However I would have no objection to
having a Census held inbetween these 5 years Censuses if the Censors
and/or the Senate felt that we needed one. In other words Require a
Census in years divisable by five, and leave other Censuses to the
discrition of the Censors or the Senate.
Sulla: I understand, but we need to really build up a core group of
experienced Censors in this. This is one of my main reasons from deviating
from the norm. One thing Nova Roma lacks is truly experienced
administrators. It is my personal belief that we need to build a proper
experience and at least for a couple of years this will be the best way,
IMHO. Then as NR grows, there is room for movement in terms of the timespan
between Census's. Even Tribune Labienus pointed out some Census were 4
years....later they were 5 years.
>
> 3. To help facilitate the Censors in this work, Censors would now be
> eligible to have 2 Quaestors. It will be the chief function of the
> Quaestors to facilitate and assist the Censors in this work. The
Censors
> and Quaestors may work with the local provincial governors to facilitate
> this project. [The reason I feel the Censors need Quaestors are two
fold.
> One they are elected by the People, Secondly, they would be
magistrates who
> would be able to work in areas where there are no provincial governors.]
>
Drusus:
Allthough Quaestors are normally concerned with finances there is a
precedent for a Magistrate apointing someone to take part in a Census,
even though that is a task that is normally outside thier duties. This
Edicta
http://www.stolaf.edu/people/kchanson/census.html#3
designated a Prefectus Alae to handle a Census in Egypt in 104 CE. Now
if a Cavalry Commander could be designated to hold part of a Census in
Antiquita, I see no reason why a Quaestor can't recive this task in
Nova Roma.
Sulla: I agree, and in that, I think this will really give our Quaestors
much experience in the workings of Nova Roma. Much more than some of our
Quaestors are doing now...to be honest.
<SNIP>
> 6. Inactive citizens are those citizens who will need to be
contacted by
> the National Census. THe following will lay down some of the
procedures to
> make certain we get the best response in any National Census:
>
> A. Bulk email. At least two attempts should be done to contact
citizen via
> this avenue.
> B. Phone calls. I know this can be costly. Maybe this is where we can
> incorporate some cooperation between the local governors and the Censors
> (coordinated by the Quaestors). Or done via the Internet.
Discretion lies
> with the Censors and the Censorial Quaestors. The attempts may vary, in
> this avenue, but at least two attempts would be required. [There
has to be
> some kind of documentation either via email or snail mail by the
applicant
> to confirm the information gained via the phone, this confirmation
will need
> to go to the Censors]
> C. Snail mail. Again, this might be an avenue that there can be some
> cooperation between the Office of Censor and local governments.
However, it
> must be impearative that any documentation received must be
forwarded to the
> Censors office by the Ides of September.
>
Drusus:
I would also suggest that a list of citizens who are in danger of
being striken from the Album be posted here on the Ides of August.
This will give people who may have more recent Contact information a
chance to contact these citizens and warn them that they need to get
in touch with the Censors before the Ides of September.
Also Pater/Maters should recive a list of any Gens members that may be
stricken in advance, as they may have more recent contact information,
and can instruct the citizens to contact the Censors.
Sulla: Both of those can be good ideas and definately taken under
advisement. However, I think that if the Paters and Maters are invovled
there should be some correspondence between the citizen in question and the
office of the Censors.
> 7. If citizens fail to respond to the contact attempts. That
person will
> no longer be considered a citizen of Nova Roma. His name will be
stricken
> from the Album Civium and if he/she is a Pater/Mater, the Censors
will have
> the discretion to appoint a successor to that gens (if available).
>
Drusus:
Well this is a little milder than the leges of Antiquita, where being
Incensus was a crime punshible by Death under the Kings) and by
enslavement under the Republic, in addition to the loss of citizenship.
Sulla: Well I am willing to compromise, on the aspect of circumstances
where citizens are unable to comply with the national census. But, I think
most of our inactive citizens will not fall in that category.
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma
Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Help needed - dates |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 9 Jun 2001 22:14:30 +1000 (EST) |
|
Salvete omnes,
I come before you all with a problem. I need help with
some dates. I need very specific and numerous dates
for the following:
-The Macedonian Wars
-The reign of Domitian
-The reign of Marcus Aurelius and Antoninus Pius
-The reign of Septimus Severus
-The Germanic Wars
-The Hunnic Invasions
Any dates during these periods (along with specifics)
in the areas of architecture, literature, religion,
wars etc., would be most gratefully welcome. I hope
that you can help me with this problem, fellow
quirites.
Valete bene omnes,
Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura
Legatus Australia Medius
Sacerdos Mars Invictus
_____________________________________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: National Census - My opinion. |
| From: |
"Decimus Iunius Silanus" <danedwardsuk@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 9 Jun 2001 10:01:12 +0100 |
|
Salvete Quirites,
A few thoughts, if I may, on the continued discussion regarding the removal of citizens and the implementation of a much needed census. To me, the idea of a census to 'weed out' truly inactive citizens seems both sensible and reasonable. I agree wholeheartedly with the innovation of a truly systematic process of identifying and removing these inactive citzens from the rolls.
My concern was soley that the removal of citizens was going to proceed on an 'ad hoc' basis. This I still believe would set a worrying precedent for the future in addition to removing possible temporary inactive citizens. However, I agree that temporary inactivity would not, under a majority of circumstances, prevent these citizens from replying to a properly implemented and carried out census. Indeed, in any other than exceptional circumstances, It could be considered very poor form indeed for citizens supposedly interested in the values of NR not to reply, given that various attempts via different mediums would have been made to contact them. Nevertheless, given that the circumstances might be exceptional, a degree of discretion and flexibility would, I believe, still be required.
The problem of inactive paters/maters is a difficulty that truly does need addressing. As an applicant myself, I know that it can really be quite annoying and frustrating trying to find a gens that will even reply to an application request. A process of identifying and replacing these citizens with more active participants is sorely needed so that more gens may be re-opened to admission. For my own part, may I take this opportunity to publicly express my gratitude to my own pater for his prompt reply to my own request.
To all, I look forward to continued debate in the forum,
Valete
Decimus Iunius Silanus.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Vestalia! (shameless plug, kind of a religio thing) |
| From: |
MffnQueen@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 9 Jun 2001 09:04:05 EDT |
|
I'd like to wish everyone a Happy Vestalia, even though several of the
religio practicers are away at Roman Days. On this day, as copied from the
Nova Roma calender:
"The Vestal Virgins employ the mola salsa, the holy cake, in the celebrations
of the day. First, water is drawn by the Virgins from a sacred spring; the
water may not be set down on the ground (contact with the earth would destroy
its sacred nature), and is carried in narrow-bottomed vessels to prevent
this. The salt used in the cakes is specially made from brine brought in a
salt pan and then ground in a mortar and baked in a jar. The salt thus
produced was cut with an iron saw. This salt was used on the grain or flour,
using the ears of grain gathered on the 7th, 9th, and 11th days of Maivs, and
then turned into flour.
Women who wish to make offerings to Vesta in her temple during the Vestalia
usually offer sacrifices of simple food, borne on a platter. When doing so,
women go barefoot. Only women (and the Pontifex Maximus) were allowed in the
temple of Vesta.
Bakers and millers also honor this day, and the various tools of their trade
(millstones and the beasts of burden used to turn them) are garlanded with
violets and small loaves."
In honor of this day celebrating my patron deity, I have opened a virtual
temple for both prayer and information. Anyone who practices the religio,
especially followers of Vesta, and even those not too familiar with it are
welcome to come! So.. drumroll please... The address is:
http://members.aol.com/MffnQueen
Kinda anti-climactic, huh?
Now I know NR's Chief Vestal was working on her own virtual temple, but
sadly, she's recovering from what I understand to be painful surgery, so she
can't be with us today. I'd like to send my warmest condolences and get well
wishes to her and her family. May Vesta's sacred fire protect her in this
painful time.
So why am I posting something about the religio on the main list? Well, many
of the activities performed by the Vestals, including Vestalia, were largely
state activities. Any crime committed against the Vestals were considered
crimes against the state and thus gravely punished. In fact, the eternal
flame that was tended by the Vestals in the temple was considered to be
symbolic of Rome herself. If it went out, it was considered to be a terrible
omen, foreshadowing ill luck for the future. Higher magistrates were often
required to give offerings to Vesta at the temple before taking an oath of
office. I've even heard that the big kahunas in the legions often carried
sparks of the sacred fire with them to consult before battles. Practically
every home in Rome honored her daily. Thus, I think that it's important that
Nova Roma honor Vesta for watching over both the ancient city as well as our
new one.
*mumble* Actually I think we should do more to honor ALL the gods.. but since
not everyone practices the religio, I'll keep my rants to the ReligioRomana
list. ;)
Anyhoo, go visit the page.. Leave a prayer and/or a note in the forum if you
like. I'm off to wash my car (which could be religious experience in
itself.. it hasn't been washed since I got it a year ago! *g*). Happy
Vestalia, and have a great day!
Pax Vobiscum,
Julia Cassia Aurora
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] New Citizen :) |
| From: |
"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 09 Jun 2001 14:10:41 -0000 |
|
Salvete Omnes: It gives me great pleasure to announce a new citizen of our
res publica, and a new citizen of Canada Orientalis Provincia.
Tiberius Tullius Cato of the Gens Tullia, congratulations and welcome!
Tiberi is the son of our Rogator Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, and gentile
of Senator Marcus Tullius Triumphus Cicero.
Bene valete!
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
Propraetrix pro temp Canada Orientalis
NOVA ROMA
_________________________________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: National Census - My opinion. |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 09 Jun 2001 08:32:38 -0700 |
|
Ave,
My comments below:
Decimus Iunius Silanus wrote:
>
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> A few thoughts, if I may, on the continued discussion regarding the
> removal of citizens and the implementation of a much needed census.
Sulla: Sure, please feel free to comment on any topic.
To
> me, the idea of a census to 'weed out' truly inactive citizens seems
> both sensible and reasonable.
Sulla: I am glad you agree.
I agree wholeheartedly with the
> innovation of a truly systematic process of identifying and removing
> these inactive citzens from the rolls.
Sulla: Great!
> My concern was soley that the removal of citizens was going to proceed
> on an 'ad hoc' basis.
Sulla: What exactly do you mean 'ad hoc?' The way I see it happening,
is quite simple. At least for the next 3-5 years, while NR's population
is fairly small, the Censors would conduct census's yearly. By the end
of that time, the Censors could (if the proposed lex that I wrote
passes) petition the Senate to make the Census's occur every other
year. As NR's population continues to grow and the burden on the office
of the Censors increase the Censors can petition the Consuls or Preators
to present a bill to the Centuries to change the time frame.
This I still believe would set a worrying
> precedent for the future in addition to removing possible temporary
> inactive citizens.
Sulla: If people cannot respond to an email, a phone call or a snail
mail address over the period of 8 months, I would not classify that as a
temporary inactive citizen. Remember, the proposed lex, would at least
attempt 5 attempts at contact via 3 mediums of communication.
However, I agree that temporary inactivity would
> not, under a majority of circumstances, prevent these citizens from
> replying to a properly implemented and carried out census.
Sulla: That is my point exactly in my above response.
Indeed, in
> any other than exceptional circumstances, It could be considered very
> poor form indeed for citizens supposedly interested in the values of
> NR not to reply, given that various attempts via different mediums
> would have been made to contact them.
Sulla: I agree completely, and that was essentially my defense to the
comments of Senator Titus Labienus.
Nevertheless, given that the
> circumstances might be exceptional, a degree of discretion and
> flexibility would, I believe, still be required.
Sulla: Well, I have already stated I would be willing to compromise on
this. I stated, in response to Senator T. Labienus, that if there was
an exceptional reason (war, natural disaster, etc) then the Censors will
have the discretion not to punish any person who was stricken from the
roles. In other words, instead of having the applicant wait to reapply
for citizenship, the Censors (together) may decide to waive that aspect
of the proposed lex and choose to readmit the applicant immediately. I
hope this satisfys your concern.
> The problem of inactive paters/maters is a difficulty that truly does
> need addressing.
Sulla: Yes, I know. We have tried, and this is one of the reasons I
have been dealing with trying to write this proposed lex for a while
now.
As an applicant myself, I know that it can really be
> quite annoying and frustrating trying to find a gens that will even
> reply to an application request.
Sulla: Yes, I know how difficult it is. We have tried to fix that
situation, but the one edict on pater/maters responsiveness helps but
doenst fix the entire issue.
A process of identifying and
> replacing these citizens with more active participants is sorely
> needed so that more gens may be re-opened to admission.
Sulla: I hope you understand we cannot just automatically replace
paters/maters. Constitutionally, it cannot be done, IMHO, unless we
have valid reasons. The precedent it would create would not be a
productive one for Nova Roma.
For my own
> part, may I take this opportunity to publicly express my gratitude to
> my own pater for his prompt reply to my own request.
Sulla: Your Pater is one of the few, that I have regular contact with
and that I have a line of communication in very short notice! Given
that he is a Pontiff and Senator he is fairly active in Nova Roma.
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma
> To all, I look forward to continued debate in the forum,
>
> Valete
>
> Decimus Iunius Silanus.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: National Census - My opinion. |
| From: |
"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 09 Jun 2001 15:34:02 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, "L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@e...> wrote:
SNIP
>
> Drusus:
> I would also suggest that a list of citizens who are in danger of
> being striken from the Album be posted here on the Ides of August.
> This will give people who may have more recent Contact information a
> chance to contact these citizens and warn them that they need to get
> in touch with the Censors before the Ides of September.
>
> Also Pater/Maters should recive a list of any Gens members that may be
> stricken in advance, as they may have more recent contact information,
> and can instruct the citizens to contact the Censors.
>
> Sulla: Both of those can be good ideas and definately taken under
> advisement. However, I think that if the Paters and Maters are invovled
> there should be some correspondence between the citizen in question
and the
> office of the Censors.
>
Drusus:
Yes the role of the Pater/Maters would be to contact the Citizen and
notify them that they needed to get in touch with the Censors, not to
answer for them.
There is another role that Paters/Maters may have to play in a Census.
If we do amend the Constitution to allow Minor Children to become
Citizens, then the Pater/Mater of the Gens should be the person
responsible for insuring that the Censors have accurate information on
any Minors in thier Gens.
>
> > 7. If citizens fail to respond to the contact attempts. That
> person will
> > no longer be considered a citizen of Nova Roma. His name will be
> stricken
> > from the Album Civium and if he/she is a Pater/Mater, the Censors
> will have
> > the discretion to appoint a successor to that gens (if available).
> >
> Drusus:
> Well this is a little milder than the leges of Antiquita, where being
> Incensus was a crime punshible by Death under the Kings) and by
> enslavement under the Republic, in addition to the loss of citizenship.
>
> Sulla: Well I am willing to compromise, on the aspect of circumstances
> where citizens are unable to comply with the national census. But,
I think
> most of our inactive citizens will not fall in that category.
>
I Agree. I think that the majority of the inactive citizens either
left Nova Roma because they became bored with it and drifted away, or
they became angry over some past dispute and left without bothering to
send in a resignation. There will only be a handfull who will not
reply because of some hardship. As long as we keep the names of those
who no longer desire to be a part of Nova Roma on the Album, all we
are doing is fooling ourselves about how many citizens we really have,
and turning any effort to make plans for the future into a guess of
what we might be able to do.
Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] National Census - revised II |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 09 Jun 2001 08:48:53 -0700 |
|
Here is the revised Lex. I would appreciate any new comments.
Resepectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
____
Ave Citizens of Nova Roma,
With the discussion of a census the "hot topic" currnetly in Nova Roma,
I
would like to make my opinion known on this matter. I have been
discussing
this very issue with a couple of citizens, and now I think its time I
tried
to formulate this so that everyone can get an idea of just where I am on
this issue. I speak for myself. My colleauge, if you will notice will
also
be getting a copy of this very email. I hope he will add his opinion
sometime soon on this topic.
I will fashion this as a proposed Lex. For this is something I would
like
to have promulgated, eventually.
I. A Census of all citizens of Nova Roma should be done yearly. This
would
be the responsiblity of the Censors. However, as Nova Roma grows, it
will
be likely that a yearly census might become an undue burden. The
Censors
may petition the Senate for an exemption up to a year. This means that
instead of a yearly census, the Senate can upon passing a Senatus
Consultum,
authorize the Censors to conduct a Census every two years. The Senatus
Consultum can be a one time exemption or it can establish the procedural
change permanently.
2. If the Censors request a larger gap of time between Census (beyond
the 2
years) This must be passed via the Comitia Centuriata. [In my honest
opinion, I feel that these changes should go in the following timeframe:
1
year, 2 years, 5 years and then 10 years.]
3. To help facilitate the Censors in this work, Censors would now be
eligible to have 2 Quaestors. It will be the chief function of the
Quaestors to facilitate and assist the Censors in this work. The
Censors
and Quaestors may work with the local provincial governors to facilitate
this project. [The reason I feel the Censors need Quaestors are two
fold.
One they are elected by the People, Secondly, they would be magistrates
who
would be able to work in areas where there are no provincial governors.]
4. The Census of all citizen of Nova Roma must be done by the Ides of
September, in the year that the Census is due. This will give the
Censors
enough time to clean the roles and make adjustments before the alignment
of
century points and century placements must be completed. [This must be
done
during November, according to the Constitution].
5. The Census will consist of the following:
A. Active citizens are those citizens that do not need to be contacted
by
the Censors to determine if they are apart of Nova Roma:
1. Those citizens who vote are considered ACTIVE.
2. Those citizens who pay taxes are considered ACTIVE.
6. Inactive citizens are those citizens who will need to be contacted
by
the National Census. THe following will lay down some of the procedures
to
make certain we get the best response in any National Census:
A. Bulk email. At least two attempts should be done to contact citizen
via
this avenue.
B. Phone calls. I know this can be costly. Maybe this is where we can
incorporate some cooperation between the local governors and the Censors
(coordinated by the Quaestors). Or done via the Internet. Discretion
lies
with the Censors and the Censorial Quaestors. The attempts may vary, in
this avenue, but at least two attempts would be required. [There has to
be
some kind of documentation either via email or snail mail by the
applicant
to confirm the information gained via the phone, this confirmation will
need
to go to the Censors]
C. Snail mail. Again, this might be an avenue that there can be some
cooperation between the Office of Censor and local governments.
However, it
must be impearative that any documentation received must be forwarded to
the
Censors office by the Ides of September.
7. By the Ides of August, the Censors should post a list to the
Official email
list of Nova Roma displaying the names of those citizens who have failed
to
respond. [Hopefully, by this time, Paters and Maters will recieve
notification
on those in their gentes who failed to respond and can get their gens
members to
contact the Censors by the Ides of September, when the Census will be
complete.]
8. If citizens fail to respond to the contact attempts. That person
will
no longer be considered a citizen of Nova Roma. His name will be
stricken
from the Album Civium and if he/she is a Pater/Mater, the Censors will
have
the discretion to appoint a successor to that gens (if available).
9. If an person who was once a citizen but was removed due to a
National
Census, he will have to comply with the stipulations of the Resignation
Lex.
However, the Censors have the discretion to waive this clause if both
Censors
feel there are legitimate reasons for the citizen to remain
inncommunicado
(homelessness, war, national disaster, etc).
____
Respectfully submitted,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: National Census - revised II |
| From: |
"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 09 Jun 2001 17:19:55 -0000 |
|
Salve Luci Corneli,
I do have some misgivings about this section.
> 8. If citizens fail to respond to the contact attempts. That person
> will
> no longer be considered a citizen of Nova Roma. His name will be
> stricken
> from the Album Civium and if he/she is a Pater/Mater, the Censors will
> have
> the discretion to appoint a successor to that gens (if available).
There is a possible conflictwith the Constitution here.
II D 3 states
"Each gens shall, through whatever means it may determine appropriate,
have a paterfamilias (fem. materfamilias) who shall act as the leader
of the gens and speak for it when necessary. The holder of this
position must be registered as such with the censors. The
paterfamilias may, at his or her discretion, expel members of their
gens, or accept new members into it"
Having the Censors name a new Pater/Mater takes the choice away fron
the Gens. I think this might be a better idea
....and if he/she is a Pater/Mater, the Censors will have the power to
appoint a member of that Gens to act In Loco Parentis until the Gens
selects a successor.
By doing this we can avoid having the Censors Paters/Maters and still
insure that the Gens have a legal head of the family.
Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] In the Spirit of the Days |
| From: |
Marcus Bianchius Antonius <imperialreign@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 9 Jun 2001 10:19:37 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salve,
My turn to chime in...
Name: Marcus Bianchius Antonius
I chose my praenomina, Marcus, because I like the
name. Its an easy name you just can't go wrong with.
My nomen, Bianchius, I chose because Bianchi is my
grandmother's maiden name. I thought it would be good
to honor her and my family from Italy. And Antonius,
because my "not quite so Roman" middle name is
Anthony.
Myself and family: I live in Grandview Heights, Ohio,
smack in the middle of Columbus. I am a design
engineer at a marketing and production firm. I
attended Ohio State University and have a degree in
Fine Arts and a minor in Japanese. I live with Octavia
Bianchia Crispiana, a lovely woman with whom I share
an interest in Rome.
I first became fasinated with Roman Civilization in
9th grade..thanks to my history teacher, Mr. Scanland.
He showed me how much fun history can be. Eversince, I
have been extolling the virtues of Rome and saying
how, one day, I would become emperor of the world
(just kidding).
My ancestry hails from (on my mothers side) Tuscany,
Italy. Lucca to be exact. We keep in touch with our
relatives over there. My fathers family comes from
Ireland. (I also have some German in me.)
Philosophy. I was raised Roman Catholic, still am and
always plan on being. I always felt that it was an
extention of the Roman religion...probably only
because the empire became Christian and the Pope has
always been there (in Rome). (except for that brief
stint in France.)
I have always had a fasination with the Greco-Roman
(as well as Hindu and Egyptian, etc.)gods. Also, if
anyone knows where to find a very Romanesque statue of
Minerva, please let me know.
Why Nova Roma? I have finally found people who share
my interest in the revitalization of Rome. I have
dreamed of getting together with others that share my
love of Rome and I have found that home here.
Thank you all for your time and take care.
Marcus Bianchius Antonius
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Vestalia! (shameless plug, kind of a religio thing) |
| From: |
"Raina Faolan" <GuruPoet@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 09 Jun 2001 14:24:45 -0400 |
|
HAPPY VESTALIA AMICA!!! And a happy Vestalia to all our fellow Religio
following Pagans.
Pax Vobiscum,
Aeternia
>From: MffnQueen@--------
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: [novaroma] Vestalia! (shameless plug, kind of a religio thing)
>Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 09:04:05 EDT
>
>I'd like to wish everyone a Happy Vestalia, even though several of the
>religio practicers are away at Roman Days. On this day, as copied from the
>Nova Roma calender:
>
>"The Vestal Virgins employ the mola salsa, the holy cake, in the
>celebrations
>of the day. First, water is drawn by the Virgins from a sacred spring; the
>water may not be set down on the ground (contact with the earth would
>destroy
>its sacred nature), and is carried in narrow-bottomed vessels to prevent
>this. The salt used in the cakes is specially made from brine brought in a
>salt pan and then ground in a mortar and baked in a jar. The salt thus
>produced was cut with an iron saw. This salt was used on the grain or
>flour,
>using the ears of grain gathered on the 7th, 9th, and 11th days of Maivs,
>and
>then turned into flour.
>
>Women who wish to make offerings to Vesta in her temple during the Vestalia
>usually offer sacrifices of simple food, borne on a platter. When doing so,
>women go barefoot. Only women (and the Pontifex Maximus) were allowed in
>the
>temple of Vesta.
>
>Bakers and millers also honor this day, and the various tools of their
>trade
>(millstones and the beasts of burden used to turn them) are garlanded with
>violets and small loaves."
>
>In honor of this day celebrating my patron deity, I have opened a virtual
>temple for both prayer and information. Anyone who practices the religio,
>especially followers of Vesta, and even those not too familiar with it are
>welcome to come! So.. drumroll please... The address is:
>http://members.aol.com/MffnQueen
>
>Kinda anti-climactic, huh?
>
>Now I know NR's Chief Vestal was working on her own virtual temple, but
>sadly, she's recovering from what I understand to be painful surgery, so
>she
>can't be with us today. I'd like to send my warmest condolences and get
>well
>wishes to her and her family. May Vesta's sacred fire protect her in this
>painful time.
>
>So why am I posting something about the religio on the main list? Well,
>many
>of the activities performed by the Vestals, including Vestalia, were
>largely
>state activities. Any crime committed against the Vestals were considered
>crimes against the state and thus gravely punished. In fact, the eternal
>flame that was tended by the Vestals in the temple was considered to be
>symbolic of Rome herself. If it went out, it was considered to be a
>terrible
>omen, foreshadowing ill luck for the future. Higher magistrates were often
>required to give offerings to Vesta at the temple before taking an oath of
>office. I've even heard that the big kahunas in the legions often carried
>sparks of the sacred fire with them to consult before battles. Practically
>every home in Rome honored her daily. Thus, I think that it's important
>that
>Nova Roma honor Vesta for watching over both the ancient city as well as
>our
>new one.
>
>*mumble* Actually I think we should do more to honor ALL the gods.. but
>since
>not everyone practices the religio, I'll keep my rants to the ReligioRomana
>list. ;)
>
>Anyhoo, go visit the page.. Leave a prayer and/or a note in the forum if
>you
>like. I'm off to wash my car (which could be religious experience in
>itself.. it hasn't been washed since I got it a year ago! *g*). Happy
>Vestalia, and have a great day!
>
>Pax Vobiscum,
> Julia Cassia Aurora
>
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: National Census - revised II |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 09 Jun 2001 13:18:19 -0700 |
|
Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:
>
> Salve Luci Corneli,
>
> I do have some misgivings about this section.
>
> > 8. If citizens fail to respond to the contact attempts. That
> person
> > will
> > no longer be considered a citizen of Nova Roma. His name will be
> > stricken
> > from the Album Civium and if he/she is a Pater/Mater, the Censors
> will
> > have
> > the discretion to appoint a successor to that gens (if available).
>
> There is a possible conflictwith the Constitution here.
>
> II D 3 states
> "Each gens shall, through whatever means it may determine appropriate,
> have a paterfamilias (fem. materfamilias) who shall act as the leader
> of the gens and speak for it when necessary. The holder of this
> position must be registered as such with the censors. The
> paterfamilias may, at his or her discretion, expel members of their
> gens, or accept new members into it"
>
> Having the Censors name a new Pater/Mater takes the choice away fron
> the Gens. I think this might be a better idea
>
> ....and if he/she is a Pater/Mater, the Censors will have the power to
> appoint a member of that Gens to act In Loco Parentis until the Gens
> selects a successor.
>
> By doing this we can avoid having the Censors Paters/Maters and still
> insure that the Gens have a legal head of the family.
Ave,
That is interesting. However, I think if this is going to work the
Censors are going to need to have a say in who becomes Pater/Mater. In
the past, when I had to replace Paters, I went to the next oldest
Citizen
in that Gens, contacted him...and waited for a response to see if he/she
would take up the responsibility. (For example this was done with Gaius
Aelius Ericius resigned). The law really does not state how one becomes
Pater/Mater. Though it just states there will be one. None of our
gentes have the choice who will be Pater/Mater. Instead they find a
gens
and contact the Pater/Mater to see if that person will accept them in
the
gens. I really do not see this as a potential conflict with the
Constitution of Nova Roma.
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Inactive citizens. |
| From: |
"Sebastyen Storm" <Hellaeon@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 09 Jun 2001 14:53:37 -0500 |
|
Salvete Honorable Censores, Magistraces, et cives,
I write to you now on the subject of revoking the citizenship of these
unfortunate inactive citizens who have failed to respond to a call for
Census. I am unexperienced in these matters, and, of course, am not in full
possession of the facts in regard to how the census was performed; however,
I wonder if using the internet to perform this government task to the
exclusion of all others is in the best interests of we, the people.
I understand, as do most, if not all, of us, that when one submits
their application to join this great nation that it is generally done
electronically, and that most, if not all government action is done over a
medium of pure electronic abstraction, the internet, a powerful tool and
ally, but also a fairly limited creature. I wonder, if, perhaps, anyone has
attempted to contact these inactive citizens by their home addresses, rather
than simply by email. Email servers go down, computers break down, people
sometimes cannot afford internet service.
I know that the Censores maintain our addresses and vital information
in their records, perhaps the regional governors should have access to this,
so they may better perform their duties? It is duly noted that some persons
may have a personal problem with someone that they've never met having their
home address; The Censores already have it. This is to be a great nation,
then we must decentralise some of our function from this paltry web of
technology, and perhaps do somethings the old fashioned way. We must not
allow Nova Roma to become 'just another internet nation'. We must treat
ourselves, before anyone else will, as a living, breathing nation, grounded
on Terra Firma, that it may continue to live on in our hearts, and finally
become the macronation that we would all wish it to be.
In closing, I suggest that using the internet to conduct government
business is not a bad idea, but using to the exclusion to all else is, in my
opinion, and I believe that perhaps some measures should be put into place
to safeguard against technological handicap for this nation.
Thank you for your time.
P. Cornelius Scipio Magister
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| Subject: |
Re: [Fwd: [novaroma] National Census - revised II] |
| From: |
"Sebastyen Storm" <Hellaeon@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 09 Jun 2001 15:33:01 -0500 |
|
Salvete Omnes,
I, P. Cornelius Scipio Magister, hereby add my support and backing to this
proposal, that it may be considered for inception into the tabularium as a
lex, as this proposal meets the reservations that I have had to the fullest
consideration. I hope that our Senior Magistrates will take this into
consideration and promulgate the law and implement the Lex so that Nova
Roma can begin Her first Census in the following Year.
Vale,
P. Cornelius Scipio Magister.
>From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
>To: Sebastyen Storm <hellaeon@-------->
>Subject: [Fwd: [novaroma] National Census - revised II]
>Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 13:23:29 -0700
>
>
>
>Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix wrote:
> >
> > Here is the revised Lex. I would appreciate any new comments.
> >
> > Resepectfully,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > Censor
> > ____
> > Ave Citizens of Nova Roma,
> >
> > With the discussion of a census the "hot topic" currnetly in Nova
> > Roma,
> > I
> > would like to make my opinion known on this matter. I have been
> > discussing
> > this very issue with a couple of citizens, and now I think its time I
> > tried
> > to formulate this so that everyone can get an idea of just where I am
> > on
> > this issue. I speak for myself. My colleauge, if you will notice
> > will
> > also
> > be getting a copy of this very email. I hope he will add his opinion
> > sometime soon on this topic.
> >
> > I will fashion this as a proposed Lex. For this is something I would
> > like
> > to have promulgated, eventually.
> >
> > I. A Census of all citizens of Nova Roma should be done yearly. This
> > would
> > be the responsiblity of the Censors. However, as Nova Roma grows, it
> > will
> > be likely that a yearly census might become an undue burden. The
> > Censors
> > may petition the Senate for an exemption up to a year. This means
> > that
> > instead of a yearly census, the Senate can upon passing a Senatus
> > Consultum,
> > authorize the Censors to conduct a Census every two years. The
> > Senatus
> > Consultum can be a one time exemption or it can establish the
> > procedural
> > change permanently.
> >
> > 2. If the Censors request a larger gap of time between Census (beyond
> > the 2
> > years) This must be passed via the Comitia Centuriata. [In my honest
> > opinion, I feel that these changes should go in the following
> > timeframe:
> > 1
> > year, 2 years, 5 years and then 10 years.]
> >
> > 3. To help facilitate the Censors in this work, Censors would now be
> > eligible to have 2 Quaestors. It will be the chief function of the
> > Quaestors to facilitate and assist the Censors in this work. The
> > Censors
> > and Quaestors may work with the local provincial governors to
> > facilitate
> > this project. [The reason I feel the Censors need Quaestors are two
> > fold.
> > One they are elected by the People, Secondly, they would be
> > magistrates
> > who
> > would be able to work in areas where there are no provincial
> > governors.]
> >
> > 4. The Census of all citizen of Nova Roma must be done by the Ides of
> > September, in the year that the Census is due. This will give the
> > Censors
> > enough time to clean the roles and make adjustments before the
> > alignment
> > of
> > century points and century placements must be completed. [This must be
> > done
> > during November, according to the Constitution].
> >
> > 5. The Census will consist of the following:
> >
> > A. Active citizens are those citizens that do not need to be
> > contacted
> > by
> > the Censors to determine if they are apart of Nova Roma:
> >
> > 1. Those citizens who vote are considered ACTIVE.
> > 2. Those citizens who pay taxes are considered ACTIVE.
> >
> > 6. Inactive citizens are those citizens who will need to be contacted
> > by
> > the National Census. THe following will lay down some of the
> > procedures
> > to
> > make certain we get the best response in any National Census:
> >
> > A. Bulk email. At least two attempts should be done to contact
> > citizen
> > via
> > this avenue.
> > B. Phone calls. I know this can be costly. Maybe this is where we
> > can
> > incorporate some cooperation between the local governors and the
> > Censors
> > (coordinated by the Quaestors). Or done via the Internet. Discretion
> > lies
> > with the Censors and the Censorial Quaestors. The attempts may vary,
> > in
> > this avenue, but at least two attempts would be required. [There has
> > to
> > be
> > some kind of documentation either via email or snail mail by the
> > applicant
> > to confirm the information gained via the phone, this confirmation
> > will
> > need
> > to go to the Censors]
> > C. Snail mail. Again, this might be an avenue that there can be some
> > cooperation between the Office of Censor and local governments.
> > However, it
> > must be impearative that any documentation received must be forwarded
> > to
> > the
> > Censors office by the Ides of September.
> >
> > 7. By the Ides of August, the Censors should post a list to the
> > Official email
> > list of Nova Roma displaying the names of those citizens who have
> > failed
> > to
> > respond. [Hopefully, by this time, Paters and Maters will recieve
> > notification
> > on those in their gentes who failed to respond and can get their gens
> > members to
> > contact the Censors by the Ides of September, when the Census will be
> > complete.]
> >
> > 8. If citizens fail to respond to the contact attempts. That person
> > will
> > no longer be considered a citizen of Nova Roma. His name will be
> > stricken
> > from the Album Civium and if he/she is a Pater/Mater, the Censors will
> > have
> > the discretion to appoint a successor to that gens (if available).
> >
> > 9. If an person who was once a citizen but was removed due to a
> > National
> > Census, he will have to comply with the stipulations of the
> > Resignation
> > Lex.
> > However, the Censors have the discretion to waive this clause if both
> > Censors
> > feel there are legitimate reasons for the citizen to remain
> > inncommunicado
> > (homelessness, war, national disaster, etc).
> >
> > ____
> >
> > Respectfully submitted,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > Censor of Nova Roma
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > [www.debticated.com]
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Decius Aucelius Sebastianus |
| From: |
"Sebastyen Storm" <Hellaeon@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 09 Jun 2001 15:46:43 -0500 |
|
Salvete Omnes,
It is with heavy heart that I must report that Decius Aucelius
Sebastianus, known as Randall Drennan in the world, passed away today at 300
pm in San Antonio, Texas, after a prolonged battle with pancreatic cancer, a
battle that he lost. He is survived by his mother, and by his beloved Legio
XXXI Lupercae, who will miss him greatly.
Vale,
Magister
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Census, et al. |
| From: |
"Sebastyen Storm" <Hellaeon@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 09 Jun 2001 15:22:14 -0500 |
|
Salvete Honorable Censores, Magistraces, et cives,
I write to you now on the subject of revoking the citizenship of these
unfortunate inactive citizens who have failed to respond to a call for
Census. I am unexperienced in these matters, and, of course, am not in full
possession of the facts in regard to how the census was performed; however,
I wonder if using the internet to perform this government task to the
exclusion of all others is in the best interests of we, the people.
I understand, as do most, if not all, of us, that when one submits
their application to join this great nation that it is generally done
electronically, and that most, if not all government action is done over a
medium of pure electronic abstraction, the internet, a powerful tool and
ally, but also a fairly limited creature. I wonder, if, perhaps, anyone has
attempted to contact these inactive citizens by their home addresses, rather
than simply by email. Email servers go down, computers break down, people
sometimes cannot afford internet service.
I know that the Censores maintain our addresses and vital information
in their records, perhaps the regional governors should have access to this,
so they may better perform their duties? It is duly noted that some persons
may have a personal problem with someone that they've never met having their
home address; The Censores already have it. This is to be a great nation,
then we must decentralise some of our function from this paltry web of
technology, and perhaps do somethings the old fashioned way. We must not
allow Nova Roma to become 'just another internet nation'. We must treat
ourselves, before anyone else will, as a living, breathing nation, grounded
on Terra Firma, that it may continue to live on in our hearts, and finally
become the macronation that we would all wish it to be.
In closing, I suggest that using the internet to conduct government
business is not a bad idea, but using to the exclusion to all else is, in my
opinion, and I believe that perhaps some measures should be put into place
to safeguard against technological handicap for this nation.
Thank you for your time.
P. Cornelius Scipio Magister
I apologize if this is a repeated message. I am having trouble with Hotmail.
_________________________________________________________________
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] National Census - revised II |
| From: |
Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 9 Jun 2001 14:10:54 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salve, censor Sulla; et salvete omnes.
I can see that you are trying to accept other points of view on this
subject, and I thank you for that.
As it seems obvious by my previous posts, I agree with most of the
points of this proposal. I would rephrase some of the sentences to make
clear that citizens are NOT being thrown out because of their level of
activity; but I guess this is implicit by the fact that so many
attempts to contact them are required. If someone does not reply a
single time after five different attempts through three different
means, I guess they are proving not to be interested in keeping their
citizenship. I would like, though, that they were not treated under the
resignation law, just to keep coherence on our legal system.
On the other hand, I see that identity verification is not handled on
this proposal. I think that a census would be a good opportunity to
verify the information contained in the applications of our cives.
As a final word, I have to say that I agree with Drusus on the point of
revoking paterfamilias' citizenship.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Inactive citizens. |
| From: |
"Sokarus Apollonius Callias" <hadescallias@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 09 Jun 2001 21:55:31 -0000 |
|
who's inactive. if a persone doesn't say anything doesn't mean that he is
inactive but lurking for the perfect time to come out of the shadow. some of
them might be active on other list: the religion, gens list, etc... i really
don't react to the messages because they're more about politics and stuff i
find irrelevant, politics isn't. thats way it has been a long time that you
heard from me and i encourage other inactive members to speak out, to tell
why you're quit, dorment
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] If it ain't broken...... |
| From: |
"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <lespeterson@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 9 Jun 2001 15:41:31 -0700 |
|
Salvete Omnes,
While I am glad that we are engaging in a constructive dialogue concerning a National Census, I question the necessity of addressing the issue of "missing" cives. We are in the process of setting up a system that will care for this problem on it's own.
"Vanished" cives will not pay their taxes, which I hope we will implement in the near future. When they fail to perform that civic duty, they will be placed in the Capite Accensi (Sp?) until they "re-appear". Why should we put effort into excluding cives we could simply re-designate?
I've been advised by more than one Senator to be patient. I wish to thank them for that advice and extend it to the rest of you. Many of our problems will solve themselves. The systems, beliefs, actions, of our forefathers were exceptional. As we continue to emulate them I think we will find this to be true, more and more every day.
Next year in the Forum!
Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
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"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
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