| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Citizenship Diploma |
| From: |
pjane@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:17:55 -0000 |
|
> I am thinking, that it might be financially advantageous to have these
> diplomas professionally printed up in Canada, given the difference in the
> dollar.
That's very possible! While you're obtaining quotes, you might also
want to ask for one from Cassius, who runs a printing business and who
might be willing to cut Nova Roma a deal. Obviously, as Quaestor I am
interested in seeing us get the best price possible!
P. Cassia
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Citizenship Certificate |
| From: |
Susan Quan <myownq@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:10:45 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salve Amulius Claudius Petrus,
I took a look at your certificate and it is quite nice. I am extremely new and I have been trying to follow all the e-mail, but as you know we get about 50 a day.
You may already be aware of my comments and I apologize if this is redundant.
Although I really love the idea of a certificate that gives another physical aspect to the virtual, it may need to have a beginning date and ending date and like AAA a notation for "X amount of years as a member" including the members assigned Nova Roma number. If the certificates are not dated, members not in good standing may be able to misrepresent themselves using the certificate, but why would they if they have become inactive anyway. Of course this does not account for fraudulently made certificates either, why would anyone want too? I don't know. Therefore, it may be in order to have a seal made, maybe using the new coin altered enough so that it cannot be forged.
This seems like a big project and one that may become expensive just trying to overcome the small details. Maybe, I am just paranoid.
I certainly do not know much at this point about Nova Roma, so I hope you forgive my intrusion. These are just some questions that came to mind while reading the mail.
Vale, Maximina Octavia ( I am working on my Latin)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Citizenship Certificate |
| From: |
trog99@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:26:16 -0000 |
|
---
Salvete Omnes:
In novaroma@--------, Susan Quan <m--------q@--------> wrote:
>
> Salve Amulius Claudius Petrus, (snip)
>
> Of course this does not account
for fraudulently made certificates either, why would anyone want too?
I don't know. Therefore, it may be in order to have a seal made,
maybe using the new coin altered enough so that it cannot be forged.
The Seal concept is indeed a very good idea, and in my view,
imperative to protect the authenticity of the diploma. According to
Consul Cassius, such a sealing device retails for approx. $50.00 U.S.
Well worth the expense, as I see it.
Thanks Maximia, for presenting this to the list, so others may
comment.
Bene vale, and welcome to Nova Roma by the way :)
Pompeia Cornelia
Propraetrix pro temp
Canada Orientalis Provincia
Nova Roma
>
> This seems like a big project and one that may become expensive just
trying to overcome the small details. Maybe, I am just paranoid.
>
> I certainly do not know much at this point about Nova Roma, so I
hope you forgive my intrusion. These are just some questions that
came to mind while reading the mail.
>
> Vale, Maximina Octavia ( I am working on my Latin)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Citizenship Diploma |
| From: |
Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 13 Jun 2001 20:32:40 -0400 |
|
on 6/13/01 8:17 PM, pjane@-------- at pjane@-------- wrote:
>
>> I am thinking, that it might be financially advantageous to have these
>> diplomas professionally printed up in Canada, given the difference in the
>> dollar.
>
> That's very possible! While you're obtaining quotes, you might also
> want to ask for one from Cassius, who runs a printing business and who
> might be willing to cut Nova Roma a deal. Obviously, as Quaestor I am
> interested in seeing us get the best price possible!
>
> P. Cassia
The only problem with printing a large amount is that they will become
impersonal. The name of the citizen will have to be placed on the
certificate by hand I would think. I am willing to design 300 of these
certificates each personalised and so on for free. The only catch is that
your choice of paper is limited to high quality card stock. This is a paper
that is a bit heavier then your normal selection.
Hinc est mei oratio!
--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Canada Orientalis Provincia
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien
--
Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Appointment |
| From: |
"Raina Faolan" <GuruPoet@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 02:44:40 -0400 |
|
Salve,
Congratulations to Margali and also Nerva on their recent appointments.
Vale,
Aeternia
>From: jmath669642reng@--------
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: NovaRoma@--------
>Subject: [novaroma] Appointment
>Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:20:07 -0400 (EDT)
>
>Citizens of Nova Roma;
>
>I come before you to announce the appointment of the Editor Pro-Tem of
>the Provincia Nova Britannia Newsletter, Hyaparia Asinia Margali. Just
>recently. I was appraised that our former Newsletter Editor Prima
>Cornelia Fortunata is recovering from a difficult operation and Margali
>has graciously consented to fill the shoes of the irrepressable Prima
>Fortunata until she returns. This message shall serve as a notice of
>Edict for this appointment.
>
>I would respectfully ask that all of those who had volunteered to serve
>as Assistants to Prima Fortunata in April of this year, would contact me
>again as Editor Pro-Tem Margali has need of your excellent assistance in
>once again undertaking to publish a Newsletter for the Provincia.
>
>To those citizens in Provincia Nova Britannia who have blocked access to
>your E-Mail, I just wish you to know that our attempt to contact you, is
>our way of giving you a chance to be involved in the Provincia
>Organization. I pen this brief note to you, so that if you are
>otherwise taken up in your life at the present time, I and my Staff
>understand, and we hope that you will notify us when you again have a
>small amount of time available to invest in Nova Roma.
>
>Respectfully;
>Marcus Audens
>ProConsul -- Provincia Nova Britannia -- Nova Roma
>
>Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
>
>http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
>
_________________________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Citizenship Certificate |
| From: |
marcusaemiliusscaurus@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:39:24 -0000 |
|
Salve Pompeia!
I assume you mean $50 for the privilege of using the seal, not £50
per seal? Just had to check...
Bene vale,
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Application for Propraetorship |
| From: |
"yquere@--------"<yquere@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:33:41 +0200 |
|
Avete Senatoribus Novae Romae
I hereby come before the Senate to apply for recovering
the charge of Propraetor Galliae.
As I already exposed before the Forum in a message posted
on the main list, I reconsidered my citizenship
resignation before the period of 9 days has expired. I
thus ask the senate to let me the opportunity of a second
chance, by pursuing the tasks and duties of
Propraetorship, wich I would perform undoubtly with more
wisdom and temperance.
Some members of the Senate have already expressed their
support to me on the main list. I would like to thank
them and I hope they will be listened to and followed.
I would simply end in wishing the best for Provincia
Gallia, whoever the Senate chooses for Propraetorship.
Maxima Fortuna Deorum Senatoribus
Vitat Respublica Novae Romae, vitatque Provincia Gallia
Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio
ex-Propraetor Galliae
--------------
Profitez de l'offre spéciale Liberty Surf !
50 h / 95 F TTC par mois tout compris pendant 3 mois
http://register.libertysurf.fr/subscribe_fr/signup.php3
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] More photos |
| From: |
"Sean Sheridan Richards" <legioix@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:47:49 -0000 |
|
More photos of the June 3 History Channel film shoot at:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/testudojune3
Hibernicus
LEG IX HSAP
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Citizenship Certificate |
| From: |
"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:21:26 -0000 |
|
Salve Curio:
No, fifty bucks to buy the device to imprint the seal on the certificate.
Bene vale,
Pompeia
>From: marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: [novaroma] Re: Citizenship Certificate
>Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:39:24 -0000
>
>Salve Pompeia!
>
>I assume you mean $50 for the privilege of using the seal, not £50
>per seal? Just had to check...
>
>Bene vale,
>Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
>
_________________________________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] The Gens (long) |
| From: |
"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:31:38 -0000 |
|
Salvete,
Yesterday the Consul requsted more information on the Gens.
The following is in the public domain if anyone wishes to make use of
it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~
THE ORIGIN OF
THE FAMILY, PRIVATE PROPERTY, AND THE STATE
by
FREDERICK ENGELS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~
CHAPTER VI
THE GENS AND THE STATE IN ROME
ACCORDING to the legendary account of the foundation of Rome, the
first
settlement was established by a number of Latin genies [1] (one
hundred, says the legend), who were united in a tribe; these were soon
joined by a Sabellian tribe, also said to have numbered a hundred
gentes, and lastly by a third tribe of mixed elements, again said to
have been composed of a hundred gentes. The whole account reveals at
the first glance that very little was still primitive here except the
gens, and that even it was in some cases only an offshoot from a
mother
gens still existing in its original home. The tribes clearly bear the
mark of their artificial composition, even though they are generally
composed out of related elements and after the pattern of the old
tribe, which was not made but grew; it is, however, not an
impossibility that the core of each of the three tribes was a genuine
old tribe. The intermediate group, the phratry, consisted of ten
genies and was called a curia; there were therefore thirty curiae.
The Roman gens is recognized to be the same institution as the Greek
gens; and since the Greek gens is a further development of the social
unit whose original form is found among the American Indians, this, of
course, holds true of the Roman gens also. Here therefore we can be
more brief.
The Roman gens, at least in the earliest times of Rome, had the
following constitution:
1. Mutual right of inheritance among gentile members; the property
remained within the gens. Since father-right already prevailed in the
Roman gens as in the Greek, descendants in the female line were
excluded. According to the Law of the Twelve Tables, the oldest
written Roman law known to us, the children, as natural heirs, had the
first title to the estate; in default of children, then the agnates
(descendants in the male line); in default of agnates, the gentiles.
In all cases the property remained within the gens. Here we see
gentile custom gradually being penetrated by the new legal provisions
springing from increased wealth and monogamy: the original equal right
of inheritance of all members of the gens is first restricted in
practice to the agnates-probably very early, as already mentioned --
finally, to the children and their issue in the male line; in the
Twelve Tables this appears, of course, in the reverse order.
2. Possession of a common burial place. On their immigration to Rome
from Regilli, the patrician gens of the Claudii received a piece of
land for their own use and also a common burial place in the town.
Even in the time of Augustus, the head of Varus, who had fallen in the
battle of the Teutoburg Forest, was brought to Rome and interred in
the
gentilitius tumulusi the gens (Quinctilia) therefore still had its own
burial mound.
3. Common religious rites. These, the sacra gentilitia, are well
known.
4. Obligation not to marry within the gens. This seems never to have
become written law in Rome, but the custom persisted. Of all the
countless Roman married couples whose names have been preserved, there
is not one where husband and wife have the same gentile name. The law
of inheritance also proves the observance of this rule. The woman
loses her agnatic rights on marriage and leaves her gens; neither she
nor her children can inherit from her father or his brothers, because
otherwise the inheritance would be lost to the father's gens. There
is
no sense in this rule unless a woman may not marry a member of her own
gens.
5. Common land. In primitive times the gens had always owned common
land, ever since the tribal land began to be divided up. Among the
Latin tribes, we find the land partly in the possession of the tribe,
partly of the gens, and partly of the households, which at that time
can hardly have been single families. Romulus is said to have made
the
first allotments of land to individuals, about two and one-half acres
(two jugera) to a person. But later we still find land owned by the
gentes, to say nothing of the state land, round which the whole
internal history of the republic centers.
6. Obligation of mutual protection and help among members of the
gens.
Only vestiges remain in written history; from the very start the
Roman
state made its superior power so manifest that the right of protection
against injury passed into its hands. When Appius Claudius was
arrested, the whole of his gens, even those who were his personal
enemies, put on mourning. At the time of the second Punic war the
gentes joined together to ransom their members who had been taken
prisoner; the senate prohibited them from doing so.
7. Right to bear the gentile name. Persisted till the time of the
emperors; freedmen were allowed to use the gentile name of their
former
master, but without gentile rights.
8. Right to adopt strangers into the gens. This was done through
adoption into a family (as among the Indians), which carried with it
acceptance into the gens.
9. The right to elect the chief and to depose him is nowhere
mentioned. But since in the earliest days of Rome all offices were
filled by election or nomination, from the elected king downwards, and
since the priests of the curiae were also elected by the curiae
themselves, we may assume the same procedure for the presidents
(Incises) of the gentes however firmly established the election from
one and the same family within the gens may have already become.
Such were the rights of a Roman gens. Apart from the already
completed
transition to father-right, they are the perfect counterpart of the
rights and duties in an Iroquois gens; here again "the Iroquois shows
through unmistakably" (p. 90).
The confusion that still exists today, even among our leading
historians, on the subject of the Roman gens, may be illustrated by
one
example. In his paper on Roman family names in the period of the
Republic and of Augustus (Romische Forschungen, Berlin, 1864, Vol. I,
pp. 8-11) Mommsen writes:
The gentile name belongs to all the male members of the gens,
excluding, of course, the slaves, but including adopted and
protected persons; it belongs also to the women.... The tribe [as
Mommsen here translates gens] is... a communal entity, derived
from common lineage (real, supposed or even pretended) and united
by communal festivities, burial rites and laws of inheritance; to
it all personally free individuals, and therefore all women also,
may and must belong. But it is difficult to determine what
gentile name was borne by married women. So long as the woman
may
only marry a member of her own gens, this problem does not arise;
and there is evidence that for a long period it was more
difficult
for women to marry outside than inside the gens; for instance, so
late as the sixth century [B.C.] the right of gentis enuptio
(marriage outside the gens) was a personal privilege, conceded as
a reward.... But when such marriages outside the tribe took
place,
the wife, in earliest times, must thereby have gone over to her
husband's tribe. Nothing is more certain than that the woman, in
the old religious marriage, enters completely into the legal and
sacramental bonds of her husband's community and leaves her own.
Everyone knows that the married woman forfeits the right of
inheritance and bequest in relation to members of her own gens
but
shares rights of inheritance with her husband and children and
the
members of their gens. And if she is adopted by her husband and
taken into his family, how can she remain apart from his gens?
Mommsen therefore maintains that the Roman women who belonged to a
gens
had originally been permitted to marry only within the gens, that the
gens had therefore been endogamous, not exogamous. This view, which
is
in contradiction to all the evidence from other peoples, rests
chiefly,
if not exclusively, on one much disputed passage from Livy (Book
XXXIX,
Ch. 19), according to which the senate in the year 568 after the
foundation of the city, or 186 B.C., decreed: "Uti Feceniae Hispalae
datio deminutio gentis enuptio tutoris optio item esset, quasi ei vir
testaments dedisset; utique ei ingenuo nubere liceret, neu quid ei qui
eam duxisset ob id fraudi ignominiave essee" -- that Fecenia Hispala
shall have the right to dispose of her property, to decrease it, to
marry outside the gens, and to choose for herself a guardian, exactly
as if her (deceased) husband had conferred this right on her by
testament; that she may marry a freeman, and that the man who takes
her
to wife shall not be considered to have committed a wrongful or
shameful act thereby.
Without a doubt, Fecenia, a freedwoman, is here granted the right to
marry outside the gens. And equally without a doubt the husband
possessed the right, according to this passage, to bequeath to his
wife
by will the right to marry outside the gens after his death. But
outside which gens?
If the woman had to marry within her gens, as Mommsen assumes, she
remained within this gens also after her marriage. But in the first
place the endogamous character of the gens which is here asserted is
precisely what has to be proved. And, secondly, if the wife had to
marry within the gens, then, of course, so had the man, for otherwise
he could not get a wife. So we reach the position that the man could
bequeath to his wife by will a right which he himself, and for
himself,
did not possess; we arrive at a legal absurdity. Mommsen also feels
this, and hence makes the assumption: "For a lawful marriage outside
the gens, it was probably necessary to have the consent, not only of
the chief, but of all members of the gens." That is a very bold
assumption in the first place, and, secondly, it contradicts the clear
wording of the passage. The senate grants her this right in the place
of her husband; it grants her expressly neither more nor less than her
husband could have granted her, but what it grants her is an absolute
right, conditional upon no other restriction. Thus it is provided
that
if she makes use of this right, her new husband also shall not suffer
any disability. The senate even directs the present and future
consuls
and praetors to see to it that no injurious consequences to her
follow.
Mommsen's assumption therefore seems to be completely inadmissible.
Or assume that the woman married a man from another gens, but herself
remained in the gens into which she had been born. Then, according to
the above passage, the man would have had the right to allow his wife
to marry outside her own gens. That is, he would have had the right
to
make dispositions in the affairs of a gens to which he did not even
belong. The thing is so patently absurd that we need waste no more
words on it.
Hence there only remains the assumption that in her first marriage the
woman married a man from another gens, and thereby immediately entered
the gens of her husband, which Mommsen himself actually admits to have
been the practice when the woman married outside her gens. Then
everything at once becomes clear. Severed from her old gens by her
marriage and accepted into the gentile group of her husband, the woman
occupies a peculiar position in her new gens. She is, indeed, a
member
of the gens, but not related by blood. By the mere manner of her
acceptance as a gentile member, she is entirely excluded from the
prohibition against marrying within the gens, for she has just married
into it; further, she is accepted as one of the married members of the
gens, and on her husband's death inherits from his property, the
property of a gentile member. What is more natural than that this
property should remain within the gens and that she should therefore
be
obliged to marry a member of her husband's gens and nobody else? And
if an exception is to be made, who is so competent to give her the
necessary authorization as the man who has bequeathed her this
property, her first husband? At the moment when he bequeaths to her a
part of his property and at the same time allows her to transfer it
into another gens through marriage or in consequence of marriage, this
property still belongs to him and he is therefore literally disposing
of his own property. As regards the woman herself and her relation to
her husband's gens, it was he who brought her into the gens by a free
act of will- the marriage; hence it also seems natural that he should
be the proper person to authorize her to leave this gens by a second
marriage. In a word, the matter appears simple and natural as soon as
we abandon the extraordinary conception of the endogamous Roman gens
and regard it, with Morgan, as originally exogamous.
There still remains one last assumption which has also found
adherents,
and probably the most numerous. On this view, the passage only means
that "freed servants (liberty) could not without special permission e
gente enubere (marry out of the gens) or perform any of the acts,
which, involving loss of rights (capitis deminutio minima), would have
resulted in the liberta leaving the gens." (Lange, Romische
Altertumer,
Berlin 1856, I, 195, where Huschke is cited in connection with our
passage from Livy.) If this supposition is correct, the passage then
proves nothing at all about the position of free Roman women, and
there
can be even less question of any obligation resting on them to marry
within the gens.
The expression enuptio gentis only occurs in this one passage and
nowhere else in the whole of Latin literature; the word enubere, to
marry outside, only occurs three times, also in Livy, and then not in
reference to the gens. The fantastic notion that Roman women were
only
allowed to marry within their gens owes its existence solely to this
one passage. But it cannot possibly be maintained. For either the
passage refers to special restrictions for freedwomen, in which case
it
proves nothing about free women (ingenue,); or it applies also to free
women; and then it proves, on the contrary, that the woman married as
a
rule outside her gens, but on her marriage entered into the gens of
her
husband; which contradicts Mommsen and supports Morgan.
Almost three centuries after the foundation of Rome, the gentile
groups
were still so strong that a patrician gens, that of the Fabii, was
able
to undertake an independent campaign, with the permission of the
senate, against the neighboring town of Veii; three hundred and six
Fabii are said to have set out and to have been killed to a man, in an
ambush; according to the story, only one boy who had remained behind
survived to propagate the gens.
As we have said, ten gentes formed a phratry, which among the Romans
was called a curia and had more important public functions than the
Greek phratry. Every curia had its own religious rites, shrines and
priests; the latter, as a body, formed one of the Roman priestly
colleges. Ten curiae formed a tribe, which probably, like the rest of
the Latin tribes, originally had an elected president-military leader
and high priest. The three tribes together formed the Roman people,
the Populus Romanus.
Thus no one could belong to the Roman people unless he was a member of
a gens and through it of a curia and a tribe. The first constitution
of the Roman people was as follows: Public affairs were managed in the
first instance by the senate, which, as Niebuhr first rightly saw, was
composed of the presidents of the three hundred genies; it was because
they were the elders of the gens that they were called fathers,
patres,
and their body, the senate (council of the elders, from senex, old).
Here again the custom of electing always from the same family in the
gens brought into being the first hereditary nobility; these families
called themselves "patricians," and claimed for themselves exclusive
right of entry into the senate and tenure of all other offices. The
acquiescence of the people in this claim, in course of time, and its
transformation into an actual right, appear in legend as the story
that
Romulus conferred the patriciate and its privileges on the first
senators and their descendants. The senate, like the Athenian boule,
made final decisions in many matters and held preparatory discussions
on those of greater importance, particularly new laws. With regard to
these, the decision rested with the assembly of the people, called the
comitia curiata (assembly of the curiae). The people assembled
together,
grouped in curiae, each curia probably grouped in genies; each of the
thirty curiae, had one vote in the final decision. The assembly of
the
curiae accepted or rejected all laws, elected all higher officials,
including the rex (so-called king), declared war (the senate, however,
concluded peace), and, as supreme court, decided, on the appeal of the
parties concerned, all cases involving death sentence on a Roman
citizen. Lastly, besides the senate and the assembly of the people,
there was the rex, who corresponded exactly to the Greek basileus and
was not at all the almost absolute king which Mommsen made him out to
be. [3] He also was military leader, high priest, and president of
certain
courts. He had no civil authority whatever, nor any power over the
life, liberty, or property of citizens, except such as derived from
his
disciplinary powers as military leader or his executive powers as
president of a court. The office of rex was not hereditary; on the
contrary, he was first elected by the assembly of the curia,, probably
on the nomination of his predecessor, and then at a second meeting
solemnly installed in office. That he could also be deposed is shown
by the fate of Tarquinius Superbus.
Like the Greeks of the heroic age, the Romans in the age of the
so-called kings lived in a military democracy founded on gentes,
phratries, and tribes and developed out of them. Even if the curiae
and tribes were to a certain extent artificial groups, they were
formed
after the genuine, primitive models of the society out of which they
had arisen and by which they were still surrounded on all sides. Even
if the primitive patrician nobility had already gained ground, even if
the reges were endeavoring gradually to extend their power, it does
not
change the original, fundamental character of the constitution, and
that alone matters.
Meanwhile, Rome and the Roman territory, which had been enlarged by
conquest, increased in population, partly through immigration, partly
through the addition of inhabitants of the subjugated, chiefly Latin,
districts. All these new citizens of the state (we leave aside the
question of the clients) stood outside the old gentes, curia,, and
tribes, and therefore formed no part of the populus Romanus, the real
Roman people. They were personally free, could own property in land,
and had to pay taxes and do military service. But they could not hold
any office, nor take part in the assembly of the curiae, nor share in
the allotment of conquered state lands. They formed the class that
was
excluded from all public rights, the plebs. Owing to their
continually
increasing numbers, their military training and their possession of
arms, they became a powerful threat to the old populus, which now
rigidly barred any addition to its own ranks from outside. Further,
landed property seems to have been fairly equally divided between
populus and plebs, while the commercial and industrial wealth, though
not as yet much developed, was probably for the most part in the hands
of the plebs.
The great obscurity which envelops the completely legendary primitive
history of Rome-an obscurity considerably deepened by the
rationalistically pragmatical interpretations and accounts given of
the
subject by later authors with legalistic minds -- makes it impossible
to say anything definite about the time, course, or occasion of the
revolution which made an end of the old gentile constitution. All
that
is certain is that its cause lay in the struggles between plebs and
populus.
The new constitution, which was attributed to the rex Servius Tullius
and followed the Greek model, particularly that of Solon, created a
new
assembly of the people, in which populus and plebeian without
distinction were included or excluded according to whether they
performed military service or not. The whole male population liable
to
bear arms was divided on a property basis into six classes. The lower
limit in each of the five classes was: (1) 100,000 asses; (2) 75,000
asses; (3) 50,000 asses; (4) 25,000 asses; (5) 11,000 asses; according
to Dureau de la Malle, the equivalent to about 14,000; 10,500; 7,000;
3,600; and 1,570 marks respectively. The sixth class, the
proletarians, consisted of those with less property than the lower
class and those exempt from military service and taxes. In the new
popular assembly of the centuries (comitia centuriata) the citizens
appeared in military formation, arranged by companies in their
centuries of a hundred men, each century having one vote. Now the
first class put eighty centuries in the field, the second twenty-two,
the third twenty, the fourth twenty-two, the fifth thirty, and the
sixth also on century for the sake of appearances. In addition, there
was the cavalry, drawn from the wealthiest men, with eighteen
centuries; total, 193; ninety-seven votes were thus required for a
clear majority. But the cavalry and the first class alone had
together
ninety-eight votes, an therefore the majority; if they were agreed,
they did not ask the others; they made their decision, and it stood.
This new assembly of the centuries now took over all political rights
of the former assembly of the curiae, with the exception of a few
nominal privileges. The curiae and the gentes of which they were
composed were thus degraded, as in Athens, to mere private and
religious associations and continued to vegetate as such for a long
period while the assembly of the curio soon became completely dormant.
In order that the three old tribes of kinship should also be excluded
from the state, four local tribes were instituted, each of which
inhabited one quarter of the city and possessed a number of political
rights.
Thus in Rome also, even before the abolition of the so-called
monarchy,
the old order of society based on personal ties of blood was destroyed
and in its place was set up a new and complete state constitution
based
on territorial division and difference of wealth. Here the public
power consisted of the body of citizens liable to military service, in
opposition not only to the slaves, but also to those excluded from
service in the army and from possession of arms, the so-called
proletarians.
The banishment of the last rex, Tarquinius Superbus, who usurped real
monarchic power, and the replacement of the office of rex by two
military leaders (consuls) with equal powers (as among the Iroquois
was
simply a further development of this new constitution. Within this
new
constitution, the whole history of the Roman Republic runs its course,
with all the struggles between patricians and plebeians for admission
to office and share in the state lands, and the final merging of the
patrician nobility in the new class of the great land and money
owners,
who, gradually swallowing up all the land of the peasants ruined by
military service, employed slave labor to cultivate the enormous
estates thus formed, depopulated Italy and so threw open the door, not
only to the emperors, but also to their successors, the German
barbarians.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~
NOTES
[1] As gentes is here the Latin word used by the Romans, it is printed
in italics to distinguish it from the general term "gens" used
throughout the book -- Ed.
[2] The Latin rex is the same as the Celtic-Irish righ (tribal chief)
and the Gothic reiks; that reiks signified head of the gens or tribe,
as did also originally the German word Furst (meaning "first" -- cf.
English first and Danish forste), is shown by the fact that already in
the fourth century the Goths had a special word for the later "king,"
the military leader of the whole people: thiudans. In Ulfilas'
translation of the Bible, Artaxerxes and Herod are never called reiks,
but thiudans, and the empire of the Emperor Tiberius is not called
reiki, but thiudinassus. In the name of the Gothic thiodans or, as we
inaccurately translate, "king," Thiudareik (Theodorich, i.e.
Dietrich),
both titles coalesce.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Appointment |
| From: |
margali <margali@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:29:59 -0400 |
|
Thank you very much!
I feel that this is a way to get better involved and I do have
some experience doing newsletters. I do wish our Vestal to get
well soon, and take up her duties again - but until then, I will
do my best for her!
margali
Hyapatia Asinia Margali
~~~~~the quote starts here:
Salve,
Congratulations to Margali and also Nerva on their recent
appointments.
Vale,
Aeternia
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Virus Alert - verified through DoD system |
| From: |
"Nick R. Ramos Jr." <nramos@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 14:44:44 -0000 |
|
Salvete Quirites!
There is a new virus in the wild today - what follows is a quote from
our Navy IT desk:
New Virus Alert 13 June 2001
There is a new virus in the wild and is being randomly distributed.
The
subject line is either blank or starts with "US PRESIDENT".
If you receive an email with this Subject line, the virus has likely
been
detected and removed by our virus protection software on the email
servers.
However, there other ways into our environment so do not open this
email.
Please follow standard email safety, Do Not Open the email, DELETE
this
email from your Inbox and from your Deleted Items folder.
It's another of the infamous Visual Basic Scripts that script kiddies
love to release. Like a lot of it's predecessors, it like to latch on
to your Address Book and send copies of itself to all your friends.
Please don't run any attachments from people you don't know - and even
people you know - unless you're absolutely certain of what it is.
Marius Cornelius Scipio
Aedilis Curulis
Nova Roma
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Virus Alert - verified through DoD system |
| From: |
"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:56:29 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, "Nick R. Ramos Jr." <nramos@s...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites!
> There is a new virus in the wild today - what follows is a quote
from
> our Navy IT desk:
>
> New Virus Alert 13 June 2001
>
> There is a new virus in the wild and is being randomly
distributed.
> The
> subject line is either blank or starts with "US PRESIDENT".
>
> If you receive an email with this Subject line, the virus has
likely
> been
> detected and removed by our virus protection software on the email
> servers.
> However, there other ways into our environment so do not open this
> email.
> Please follow standard email safety, Do Not Open the email, DELETE
> this
> email from your Inbox and from your Deleted Items folder.
>
> It's another of the infamous Visual Basic Scripts that script
kiddies
> love to release. Like a lot of it's predecessors, it like to latch
on
> to your Address Book and send copies of itself to all your friends.
> Please don't run any attachments from people you don't know - and
even
> people you know - unless you're absolutely certain of what it is.
>
> Marius Cornelius Scipio
> Aedilis Curulis
> Nova Roma
Salvete,
If anyone sees this virus, please forward a copy to me.
(I'm sure that some of you would love to send me a virus) ;o)
I ned to check it out to see what damage it does.
Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Any Brazilians on the list? Off Topic |
| From: |
margali <margali@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:50:21 -0400 |
|
Salve,
I am sort of looking for a brazillian on the list to ask a really
large favor -
I love liquid splenda, which is made in Brazil and until recently
imported into the US, but since the lable is in brazillian
portugese, and the company doesn't want to make new lables the
FDA has refused to let the company bring it into the US. It is
still a legal substance but I can't get it. What I really need
help with is somebody in Brazil to purchase and send me liquid
splenda in exchange for payment [like a deal I worked with an
australian recently - they sent me some bullion thread and I
purchased and shipped a book from Amazon.com of the same value as
hte bullion and shipping.]
Pretty please?
Thanks
margali
Hyapatia Asinia Margali
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Gens restructuring |
| From: |
"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <lespeterson@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:16:01 -0700 |
|
Salvete Omnes,
The bulk of recent discussion regarding Gens reform has centered on who gets what title and what name. As a group we sure seem to be hung up on names and their appropriateness or lack thereof :) I'd like to initiate a discussion of what role our Gens will serve once we sort out which Gens are active, have a functioning Pater/Materfamilias, get booted out or moved to head count, et cetera.
Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:
There really wasn't any benefit in belonging to a
Gens other than it
symbolized your place in society. The Family was
far more important.
It seems until now this discussion can be summed up as one centered on who gets in which Gens or who can start a Gens. We haven't talked about the role of the Gens beyond it being a name.
Is all of our debate simply to decide an individuals place in society? Don't we want our Gens to be more than that? The question is what are the functions we wish to see the Gens perform?
As volume on the ML increases with the growth of our Nation, should we limit comments on the main list to Pater/Materfamilias? This would hopefully encourage communication within the Gens with it's members taking their views to the Pater/Materfamilias who would sum up those views and share them on the main list.
Censor Equitius reminded us of his suggestion that the Gens could be the collection point for taxes. Could this be another responsibility we offer Pater/Materfamilias?
I would also like to suggest that each Gens be required to have a website or form letter (snail mail) available which outlined the religious and political beliefs of the Gens. I believe this, more than any other single action, would decrease the number of new cives interested in creating a new Gens. As it stands now very few Gens have this sort of information available. There is no way to determine which Gens would be a good fit for a newcomer unless they lurk for several months to become acquainted with the various Gens and their members.
Posting, tax collection, information dissemination, three quick ideas off the top of my head as to the possible role of Pater/Materfamilias and Gens. Surely once we sort out the "system" of our Gens then contemplation of the "function" of those institutions must follow. What other good ideas are out there?
Post Script: I would like to reiterate my opposition to the removal of un-contactable cives. Spend your time and energy on passing a tax law and the inactive will take care of themselves by being moved to the Capite Censi. We can solve two problems with one Lex. If we require Pater/Materfamilias to collect those taxes we may even take care of a third problem, that of inactive Pater Materfamilias.
Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious
"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Citizenship Certificate |
| From: |
"Navarra Reid" <optabilis@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:17:29 -0600 |
|
Salvete Amulio Claudio Petri et alii:
I, too, agree with all the following sentiments that this design is
fabulous. I agree with Marius Cornelius Scipio that a repeat inscription in
Latin would be really quite welcome. I'm not sure of the level of Latin
language ability you have, Amulius Claudius, but, perhaps, one of my other
exceedingly accomplished gens members, Domna Claudia Auspicata, could
assist. My Latin is irratic at best.
Valete,
Appia Claudia Indagatrix
Materfamilias Gens Claudia
Legatus Regionis Agassis (Provinciae Canadae Occidentalis)
Amulius Claudius Petrus, what a handsome design! Any civus would be
proud to display such a certificate, I am sure.
This is an outstanding idea. I also like very much your proposed
design. I hope our magistrates do take account of your proposal in its
right value.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.
Very well executed design, amici mei. One suggestion though - I think
it would be nice to repeat the inscription in Latin. Perhaps some of
our cives that speak other languages such as Spanish, French, etc.
could supply translations, and we could do these certificates in the
language of choice of the citizen and Latin (as Lingua franca,
nonne?). Your design is certainly something I would like to hang in
the ol' Atrium...
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Mercurius cult |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?B?WWFubiBRdely6Q==?= <yquere@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:32:42 +0200 |
|
Salvete Omnes,
I would be interested in any reference to the Cult of Mercurius or Hermès, and what would be proper to start organizing a temple and cult facilities and ceremonies.
Does any one here can provide me with material references ?
Thanks in advance.
Bene Valete
I.Querius Armoricus Lutecio
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] 4th problem solved |
| From: |
"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <lespeterson@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:29:23 -0700 |
|
Salve Omnes,
In my post script to "Gens reform" I mentioned a tax law which required collection of taxes by Pater/Materfamilias correcting three problems. The forth problem it would solve would be the concern some had for the poor and their assignment to the Capite Censi simply due to their inability rather than unwillingness to pay. The tax on that cive could be assumed by Gens members with the means to do so. Additionally, remember this could be a minute amount to begin. We could start with 5 sestertius a Gens with 1 sestertius per member. This would not have a huge effect on the treasury but would solve many problems in our Gens system and with our less active cives and provide an opportunity for many to be active and involved in the creation of our great Res Public.
Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious
"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] New Citizen |
| From: |
StarVVreck@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:46:24 EDT |
|
Salvete Omnes,
I would like to welcome a new member to gens Titinia. Caius Titinius
Varus, welcome to Nova Roma.
Valete,
Iulius Titinius Antonius
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Mercurius cult |
| From: |
"Raina Faolan" <GuruPoet@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 14:05:52 -0400 |
|
>From: Yann Quéré <yquere@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: <novaroma@-------->
>Subject: [novaroma] Mercurius cult
>Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:32:42 +0200
>
>Salvete Omnes,
>
>I would be interested in any reference to the Cult of Mercurius or Hermès,
>and what would be proper to start organizing a temple and cult facilities
>and ceremonies.
>
>Does any one here can provide me with material references ?
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Bene Valete
>I.Querius Armoricus Lutecio
Salvete,
The only lists I can really think of that could be of aiding are the Religio
Romana and HellenicPagan ran by Andrea Gladia Cyrene, I'll posts links to
both links, hope this helps a bit.
http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/ReligioRomana
http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/HellenicPagan
Vale Bene,
Aeternia
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] looking |
| From: |
hadescallias@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:23:03 -0000 |
|
i'm looking for that persone and/or message in wich he wrote a story
about a man who dies and finds out that the dead are judged the way
the ancient Egyptians saw how the dead were judged. i'm very
interested and would like to spread those stories from him which i
credit him for, among the belgian people. i know a editor for a
newspaper who might publish it.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] looking |
| From: |
margali <margali@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:58:54 -0400 |
|
Oh, hell - I just saw that story on a different list anout 2
weeks ago! I will have to see if I can remember which list and
get the information for you.
margali
~~~~~the quote starts here:
i'm looking for that persone and/or message in wich he wrote a
story
about a man who dies and finds out that the dead are judged the
way
the ancient Egyptians saw how the dead were judged.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] looking |
| From: |
"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:02:25 +0200 |
|
Ave,
I thought it was Q. Fabius Maximus who wrote that story, but I'm not sure.
Vale bene,
Draco
----- Original Message -----
From: <hadescallias@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 9:23 PM
Subject: [novaroma] looking
> i'm looking for that persone and/or message in wich he wrote a story
> about a man who dies and finds out that the dead are judged the way
> the ancient Egyptians saw how the dead were judged. i'm very
> interested and would like to spread those stories from him which i
> credit him for, among the belgian people. i know a editor for a
> newspaper who might publish it.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: M/Paterfamilias Accountability |
| From: |
"Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 15 Jun 2001 08:34:00 +1200 |
|
Salve C. Marci Coriolane!
Please excuse my late reply. The advantage for a M/Paterfamilias in an election is outlined in Part V.A.3 on the page below.
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/lex-2001-04-07-i.html
That is, if there is a tie among a tribe voting, a candidate who is a m/paterfamilias will automatically win the vote of that tribe. As I mentioned before there is no clear reason for this advantage with our current gens system. Is there someone from your province who may be able to translate the constitution and leges into your first language? Perhaps a translation could be put on your provincial web site? It would be a shame if citizens were missing out on this fundamental information.
Vale bene
Domna Claudia Auspicata
----- Original Message -----
From: Gaius Marcius Coriolanus
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 5:25 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: M/Paterfamilias Accountability
Salve Domna Claudia
I humbly apologize, but I did not watched whole m/paterfamilias
thread but you've said that paterfamilias has som advantage in
election. I don't know nothing about although I'm paterfamilias too.
Can you or anyone else tell more?
( I have never read whole constitution, I know I should to do it but
English in constitution is much more diferent from English here in
list and it is hard for me to read it)
Ave et Vale
Gaius Marcius Coriolanus
--- In novaroma@--------, "Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@i...> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Salvete Quirites.
>
> I have been following the proposals of gen-restructure with
interest.
> I am particularly interested in the proposal put forward by Amulius
> Claudius Petrus regarding a minimum period of citizenship before one
> can 'become' a M/Paterfamilias. He writes:
>
> "Opening a New Gens
>
> For a citizen to open a new gens he/she must have VI months of
active
> service. The citizen¹s current gens pater/materfamilias is to decide
> if the
> citizen has been responsible and active enough to handle the
> responsibility."
>
> My particular interest in this may be understood if one reads the
> following excerpt from the Lex Vedia de Ratione Comitiorum Populi
> Tributorum:
> "V.A.3
> Should a tie occur within a given tribe, the winner shall be the
> candidate who is a paterfamilias or materfamilias, or if such shall
> not decide the issue, the winner shall be decided by lot. The
> rogatores may decide how such decisions by lot shall be made in a
> fair manner."
>
> This part of the lex has bothered me because there need be no real
> distinction between a M/Paterfamilias candidate and any other
> candidate. At present a new citizen can easily join as a
> M/Paterfamilias, pay taxes even and have an unfair advantage in an
> election over another candidate for no other reason than
they 'chose'
> to start a new gens. I am not assuming a M/Paterfamilias is less
> active in the interests of NR, I am pointing out that many citizens
> who are not 'head' of a family are doing just as much. And so I
> fully support any measures that would more likely ensure that a
> M/Paterfamilias has 'earnt' their election advantage. A six month
> period may suffice, although I believed there was already a six
month
> period before any citizen could run for office anyway? Perhaps a
> longer waiting period before one could start a new gens? Perhaps
the
> lex should be altered? I am unsure how to 'fix' this if indeed
anyone
> else believes it requires 'fixing'.
>
>
> Valete bene
> Domna Claudia Auspicata
>
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Citizenship Diploma |
| From: |
Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 14:08:53 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salvete omnes.
--- Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@--------> wrote:
> The whole business of Latin months is complicated, because it depends
> on
> which time period you're discussing. June was referred to both
> Iunonius or
> Iunius.
>
> I was looking for a simple way that a citizen not knowing much about
> the
> Roman calender system would understand. I am planing making it an
> option on
> how you would like your date displayed the simple or historical way.
I see you have taken this into account. Thank you.
> Though if most citizens would like the historical DIES SOLIS AD III
> ID IVN
> MMDCCLIV AUC then its simple enough for me to make the changes.
I would obviously prefer AD III ID IVN MMDCCLIV AVC.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] The Gens (long) |
| From: |
Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:45:16 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salve, L. Sicini Druse.
A very interesting essay, thank you for posting it. However, no
reference to the familiae (or patresfamilias) is made on it. Do you
have another text regarding this point? If you don't have it, I will
post it myself, when I have some more time (on Monday 24).
--- Lucius Sicinius Drusus <lsicinius@--------> wrote:
> Salvete,
> Yesterday the Consul requsted more information on the Gens.
>
> The following is in the public domain if anyone wishes to make use of
>
> it.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Gens restructuring |
| From: |
Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 16:23:30 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salve, L. Maurici Procopi.
Once again, I have to ask for forgiveness if my following opinions seem
offensive to anyone. It is not my intention to offend.
--- Lucius Mauricius Procopious <lespeterson@--------> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> The bulk of recent discussion regarding Gens reform has centered on
> who gets what title and what name. As a group we sure seem to be hung
> up on names and their appropriateness or lack thereof :) I'd like to
> initiate a discussion of what role our Gens will serve once we sort
> out which Gens are active, have a functioning Pater/Materfamilias,
> get booted out or moved to head count, et cetera.
Well, this is not completely correct. It is not just empty titles: it
is the choice between following the Roman tradition or continuing with
our current system, that does NOT follow Roman tradition.
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:
>
> There really wasn't any benefit in belonging to a
> Gens other than it
> symbolized your place in society. The Family was
> far more important.
>
>
> It seems until now this discussion can be summed up as one centered
> on who gets in which Gens or who can start a Gens. We haven't talked
> about the role of the Gens beyond it being a name.
> Is all of our debate simply to decide an individuals place in
> society? Don't we want our Gens to be more than that? The question is
> what are the functions we wish to see the Gens perform?
The Gens had several functions in Classical Rome. A certain Gens had
its specific patron deities, its own history and legend, its own burial
mound, its own internal rules, its own firstnames, its own manes, its
own customs, its own preferences. To belong to a certain Gens marked
much of the way in which a civis viewed the world: the pride of the
Claudii was legendary, as well as the austerity of the Quintii. A
Cassius would probably bend to the needs of the Plebs, while a Manlius
would always support the Patricians.
I see no reason why we shouldn't stick to Roman tradition on this. Some
gentes are already (unconsciously or not) following this guidelines.
> As volume on the ML increases with the growth of our Nation, should
> we limit comments on the main list to Pater/Materfamilias?
> This would hopefully encourage communication within the Gens with
> it's members taking their views to the Pater/Materfamilias who would
> sum up those views and share them on the main list.
[Ironic mode on]
So far for the freedom of speech embodied by the Rostra, I guess. Next
step would be to award this so-called patresfamilias with the ability
to vote for all the members of their gens. That would save all the
effort of having centuriae and tribus.
I wonder why the Romans didn't come up with this same idea ;-).
[Ironic mode off]
> Censor Equitius reminded us of his suggestion that the Gens could be
> the collection point for taxes. Could this be another responsibility
> we offer Pater/Materfamilias?
Once again, we would be moving away from Roman tradition. In my point
of view, the only valid reason to part from Roman tradition is to
accomodate modern ideas and standards that we can not reasonably give
up (like in slavery or women's equality). This does not seem to fall
into this cathegory.
Besides, I don't see much problem with paying taxes through PayPal. It
would be far more difficult for these so-called patresfamilias to
organize their own private revenue service.
> I would also like to suggest that each Gens be required to have a
> website or form letter (snail mail) available which outlined the
> religious and political beliefs of the Gens. I believe this, more
> than any other single action, would decrease the number of new cives
> interested in creating a new Gens. As it stands now very few Gens
> have this sort of information available. There is no way to determine
> which Gens would be a good fit for a newcomer unless they lurk for
> several months to become acquainted with the various Gens and their
> members.
This is a better point. Gens web sites are a good idea. However, as you
said, very few gentes have a website right now. Would you close all
those gentes?
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: On a national census |
| From: |
Calpurnia <darta_arelia@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 16:46:10 -0700 (PDT) |
|
<SNIP>
> Unless a citizen requests that he or she is removed
> from the rolls, he should
> remain even if he is inactive.
> After all what if he decides to become active again?
> Consider the waste,
> Romans!
> He has to reapply, the Censors must squander
> valuable time, checking and
> approving, while what happens if he leaves again?
> The whole process must be
> repeated. Let him stay, and add to the greatness
> which is Rome.
>
Salve,
I am in agreement with you here on this point. I have
only recently become more active in Nova Roma. It was
not for lack of desire, it was for lack of ability.
Only recently have I found a reliable way to access
the internet. I say inactive members remain citizens,
on a separte list maybe until they come back and say
"I'm here! did not mean to be gone so long!" like I
did. This is something I have been reading on and
trying to find a way to put my stance into words, but
it's not been easy for me, there are so many things
going on for me personally the past few days and next
few days i hardly have time to think. between moving
and arguing with my family over my own furniture (long
story) i'm just too stressed....okay. I feel a little
better after that mini-rant. sorry bout that. it just
had to be said.
Vale,
Claudia Fabia Calpurnia Paula
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] looking |
| From: |
"Raina Faolan" <GuruPoet@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:48:24 -0400 |
|
Are you referring to the story of Osiris and how he became god of the
underworld?
--Aeternia
>From: hadescallias@--------
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: [novaroma] looking
>Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:23:03 -0000
>
>i'm looking for that persone and/or message in wich he wrote a story
>about a man who dies and finds out that the dead are judged the way
>the ancient Egyptians saw how the dead were judged. i'm very
>interested and would like to spread those stories from him which i
>credit him for, among the belgian people. i know a editor for a
>newspaper who might publish it.
>
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