| Subject: |
[novaroma] Edictum Provincia California |
| From: |
QFabiusMaxmi@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:01:00 EDT |
|
I Q. Fabius Maximus Proconsul of California do appoint the citizen Secunda
Cornelia to be my scriba/accensus for the rest of this year.
Done this day a.d.XVIII Kal.Quin. MMDCCLIV AUC
Congratulations Cornelia, I know you will do a fine job for CAL.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Changing the Constitution I (ver. 2): Age of Citizenship |
| From: |
Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:17:59 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salve honorable Consul. Et omnes.
Although I agree with your intent, please allow me to
again recapitulate my objections to the active
citizenship of minors. As have stated elsewhere, my
own personal case may be instructive. I am full
custodial parent of a minor child. I have granted
rights of visitation to my son's biological mother,and
the court has seen fit to to retain her legal parental
rights, including rights pertaining to religion,
health care and education. Were I to enroll my son,
who is a burgeoning latinophile, in Nova Roma, I would
win a substantial sum on a wager that I would end up
in court. We must take into consideration the
exigencies of our times. Divorce, and shared custody
of minor children, are examples of such stark facts.
If we agree, even upon verified parental consent, to
grant citizenship to legal minors - in any
jurisdiction - we open ourselves to lawsuits, calumny,
slander and public outrage. I ask the Censors to
respond to the following questions:
How would the Censorate handle the multiple
verifications of divorced parents' consent?
What if one parent or both parents rescind consent,
unbeknownst to us?
What if a child is in school, speaks of *ancient*
roman traditions - i.e. decimation, aspects of the the
mystery cults, blood feuds, et cetera - and is
reported to the relevant psychological officer or
conuselor? Will a parent, especially a non Nova
Roman, stick to their guns? Or will they, as is more
likely, turn on us with a proverbial vengeance?
What if an adolescent interested in Venus develops an
interest in other feminine Deities, including, say,
Kali? What if that child decides to pull a little
Thugee'ery? And when the officer asks, "Where did you
learn of Kali?" The child: "Well, I belong to Nova
Roma, and I worship Venus Genetrix, and Hecate, and I
was on the internet, and after talking to pontifex
So-and-So, and got this idea to look up other
goddeses...."
What if the child is more computer literate that their
guardians, and is able to forge a permission slip?
+++ I do not believe, so early in our history, that we
should open ourselves to these liabilities. It would
be like King Numa allowing his Etruscan foes access to
the senate house. +++
Sincerely,
Serenvs
--- Flavius Vedius Germanicus
<germanicus@--------> wrote:
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.
>
> Here I present a second draft of the proposed
> legislation to allow young
> persons to hold Citizenship in Nova Roma. I would
> like to heartily thank all
> those who participated in the discussion on this
> topic, and look forward to
> more input on this draft.
>
> -----
>
> I. This lex is hereby enacted to amend the
> Constitution of Nova Roma in such
> manner as to extend the rights of Citizenship to
> persons who are not sui
> juris in their domicile, and to undertake
> alterations to Constitutional
> mechanisms and institutions appropriate to such a
> change.
>
> II. Paragraph II.A. of the Constitution is hereby
> altered to read as
> follows:
>
> ] A. Citizenship
> ] 1. Any person 18 years old or older may apply
> for Citizenship.
> ] 2. Any person under the age of 18 may, with
> the written permission
> ] of their parent or legal guardian according
> to relevant
> ] macronational law, apply for Citizenship.
> ] a. The Censors shall establish the specific
> text required to
> ] establish parental/guardian permission
> and make such available
> ] to prospective Citizens.
> ] b. Permission forms shall be filed with the
> Censors, who shall
> ] maintain such records until the Citizen
> reaches the age of 18.
> ] 3. Citizens' children under the age of 18 may
> be granted
> ] Citizenship themselves, upon application
> for such by their
> ] parent or legal guardian, as defined by
> relevant macronational
> ] law. Children of Citizens shall not require
> written permission
> ] as described in paragraph II.A.2. above.
> ] 4. Citizenship is open to anyone regardless of
> ethnic heritage,
> ] gender, religious affiliation, or sexual
> orientation.
> ] 5. Citizenship may be involuntarily revoked by
> those means that
> ] shall be established by law, or may be
> voluntarily relinquished
> ] by notification of the censors or by public
> statement before
> ] three or more witnesses.
> ] 6. Citizens under the age of 18 may have their
> Citizenship
> ] relinquished on their behalf by their
> parent or legal guardian,
> ] as defined by relevant macronational law,
> by notification of the
> ] censors or by public statement before three
> or more witnesses.
>
> III. Paragraph II.B. of the Constitution is hereby
> altered to read as
> follows:
>
> ] B. The following rights of the Citizens who have
> reached the age of
> ] 18 shall be guaranteed, but this enumeration
> shall not be taken
> ] to exclude other rights that citizens may
> possess:
>
> IV. Paragraph II.D.3. of the Constitution is hereby
> altered to read as
> follows:
>
> ] 3. Each gens shall, through whatever means it
> may determine
> ] appropriate, have a paterfamilias (fem.
> materfamilias) who
> ] shall act as the leader of the gens and
> speak for it when
> ] necessary. The holder of this position must
> be registered
> ] as such with the censors. The paterfamilias
> may, at his or
> ] her discretion, expel members of their
> gens, or accept new
> ] members into it.
> ] a. The paterfamilias may, at his
> discretion, exercise the
> ] rights ennumerated in paragraph II.B. of
> this Constitution
> ] on behalf of Citizens in their gens
> under the age of 18,
> ] with the exception of the right to vote
> (paragraph II.B.3.)
> ] and the right to join the Ordo Equester
> (paragraph II.B.8.).
> ] b. No one under the age of 18 may become
> paterfamilias of a
> ] gens.
>
> -----
>
> Basically, I've upped the age to 18 and included a
> clause that the Censores
> will create the permission slip for parents to sign.
> This way, we can
> include a specific clause to the effect of "I
> acknowledge my child may be
> exposed to, and participate in, discussions and
> activities related to the
> pre-Christian pagan religion of ancient Rome, the
> Religio Romana," or
> something to that effect. That seemed to be the big
> problem many people had
> with allowing underage cives whose parents weren't
> also cives; hopefully the
> spectre of "stealth paganism" will be lessened. I
> also fixed the rewrite of
> paragraph II.D.3.a. so that it makes sense now. :-)
>
> As always, comments are welcome.
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
> email: germanicus@--------
> AIM: Flavius Vedius
> www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
>
>
=====
Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs Peregrinvs
(this is a post for which I accept all responsibility)
"The cosmos works by harmony of tensions, like the lyre and the bow."
"Time is a game played beautifully by children."
Heraclitus of Ephesus
HeraclitusFreehold@--------
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Edictum Provincia California |
| From: |
"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 19 Jun 2001 03:01:13 -0000 |
|
Salvete Soror Valeria Secunda et Omnes:
Many congratulations on your appointment as Provincia California Scriba et
Accensus! Proconsul Fabius Maximus chooses wisely!
Bene valete!
Pompeia Cornelia
>From: QFabiusMaxmi@--------
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: [novaroma] Edictum Provincia California
>Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:01:00 EDT
>
>I Q. Fabius Maximus Proconsul of California do appoint the citizen Secunda
>Cornelia to be my scriba/accensus for the rest of this year.
>Done this day a.d.XVIII Kal.Quin. MMDCCLIV AUC
>
>Congratulations Cornelia, I know you will do a fine job for CAL.
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Minors as Citizens (was Changing the Constitution) |
| From: |
"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 19 Jun 2001 03:29:34 -0000 |
|
Salvete Honoured Consul et Omnes:
I have thought of this issue, and there are many people under 18 who have
proven to be quite a blessing to Nova Roma. This is not meant to discredit
individual citizens, but to comment on the legal aspects of the proposed
legislation.
I do share a concern with Severus, in that it's ok to say we need parental
consent, but, ohhhh, kids are sooo crafty today, in forging stuff, lying
about stuff.....not 'all' kids, but some kids.
I mean, let's face it. When I was a kid, it was not exactly unheard of to
carry false identification into a bar, borrow someone else's student card
and "flash it quick" at a highschool dance so you could get in, etc. You
could do this stuff and get away with it right within your own city.
And with the electronic communication we have now, it gets even harder to
verify the truth.
I am concerned with the legal ramifications of our allowing an unknown minor
in without having a "sure fire" way of verifying that indeed, the kid is
truly providing correct information, and from his parents.
We must keep in mind, that although the traditions of Roma Antiquita are
more "old" than "new", the revival of these concepts is new, and not readily
accepted in many, more fundamentalist areas of the world, and this includes
portions of the U.S. and Canada.
If a fundamentalist-raised kid becomes a part of our res publica under false
pretenses, and the parents hit the roof, saying they never gave permission,
our gluteus is in a legal sling, and not the kid's. I will wager that the
court will say, it was our responsibility to ensure that this
applicant/citizen was a consenting adult. All it takes is one precedent.
Even if we wormed our way out of the situation, it's still not very good
publicity for NR.
The only solution (and I know I'm turning into an essay here), that I can
think of, if that this applicant must have: Parental permission, and must
also have the validation from a couple of existing Nova Roma citizens over
21 vouching for his truthfulness. I say over 21 because it would be
tempting for an 18 or 19 year-old citizen to stretch the truth a bit to lie
about his friend's age to get him into NR. I am not saying everyone under
18 is a liar, but it's darned tempting in some situations, so let's get rid
of the temptation. A citizen 21 or over is probably not going to be a
*peer* of an applicant under 18 and is less likely to lie, as a result of
comradry or peer pressure.
The only exception to parental permission under 18 which I can think of is
the situation where both parents are active Nova Romani, in which case, the
child would be a citizen from birth.
Even with only one active parent in Nova Roma, I'd say written permission is
needed.
We must look at how the world view's us, for the moment, and not how we view
the value of minors. I agree with Severus...unless we deal very carefully
with this issue, we tread on thin ice.
I look forward to thoughts from other citizens.
Magna cum reverentia,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
Propraetrix
Canada Orientalis
NOVA ROMA
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Changing the Constitution I (ver. 2): Age of Citizenship |
| From: |
"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 19 Jun 2001 03:46:21 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...> wrote:
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.
>
> Here I present a second draft of the proposed legislation to allow young
> persons to hold Citizenship in Nova Roma. I would like to heartily
thank all
> those who participated in the discussion on this topic, and look
forward to
> more input on this draft.
>
> -----
>
> I. This lex is hereby enacted to amend the Constitution of Nova Roma
in such
> manner as to extend the rights of Citizenship to persons who are not sui
> juris in their domicile, and to undertake alterations to Constitutional
> mechanisms and institutions appropriate to such a change.
>
> II. Paragraph II.A. of the Constitution is hereby altered to read as
> follows:
>
> ] A. Citizenship
> ] 1. Any person 18 years old or older may apply for Citizenship.
> ] 2. Any person under the age of 18 may, with the written permission
> ] of their parent or legal guardian according to relevant
> ] macronational law, apply for Citizenship.
> ] a. The Censors shall establish the specific text required to
> ] establish parental/guardian permission and make such
available
> ] to prospective Citizens.
> ] b. Permission forms shall be filed with the Censors, who shall
> ] maintain such records until the Citizen reaches the age
of 18.
> ] 3. Citizens' children under the age of 18 may be granted
> ] Citizenship themselves, upon application for such by their
> ] parent or legal guardian, as defined by relevant macronational
> ] law. Children of Citizens shall not require written permission
> ] as described in paragraph II.A.2. above.
> ] 4. Citizenship is open to anyone regardless of ethnic heritage,
> ] gender, religious affiliation, or sexual orientation.
> ] 5. Citizenship may be involuntarily revoked by those means that
> ] shall be established by law, or may be voluntarily relinquished
> ] by notification of the censors or by public statement before
> ] three or more witnesses.
> ] 6. Citizens under the age of 18 may have their Citizenship
> ] relinquished on their behalf by their parent or legal guardian,
> ] as defined by relevant macronational law, by notification
of the
> ] censors or by public statement before three or more witnesses.
Salvete,
Excellent. This clears up my main objections to version 1 of this
proposed admendment.
As for the Parental Permission Papers I would sugest that a LEGAL
SIGNITURE be required from non-citizen parents. This can take two forms.
1 The traditional means of having the papers noterized.
2 Digital Signitures are now legal signitures under both New Hampshire
law (Where Nova Roma is incorparated and under US federal law
(Electronic Signatures In Global and National Commerce law) so a
document with a PGP or GPG signiture IS a legal document.
Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Minors as Citizens (addendum) |
| From: |
"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 19 Jun 2001 03:57:12 -0000 |
|
Salvete Drusus et Omnes:
I am just expanding on your idea of both parents providing a "legal"
signature, if I may. What if both parents were to provide documentation to
a Notore public (spelling that right?) for the U.S. and a Justice of the
Peace for Canada, or the European Equivalent. These people have a seal which
they affix on any sworn documentation. I am sure there is such an
equivalent, but I don't know what the title is. Perhaps one of our European
citizens could enlighten us.
Bene valete,
Pompeia
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Minors as Citizens (addendum) |
| From: |
"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 19 Jun 2001 04:10:50 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, "Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> Salvete Drusus et Omnes:
>
> I am just expanding on your idea of both parents providing a "legal"
> signature, if I may. What if both parents were to provide
documentation to
> a Notore public (spelling that right?) for the U.S. and a Justice of
the
> Peace for Canada, or the European Equivalent. These people have a
seal which
> they affix on any sworn documentation. I am sure there is such an
> equivalent, but I don't know what the title is. Perhaps one of our
European
> citizens could enlighten us.
>
> Bene valete,
> Pompeia
>
>
That is exactly what I'm talking about. A sealed doccument. The cost
isn't unreasonable. In the US a Notory Public only charges a few
dollars, and the result is a LEGAL doccument that would protect Nova
Roma from a suit by a parent who changed his/her mind and tried to
claim no permission was given, and make it very hard for a minor to
fake. In other cases like an adult falsely claiming to be the legal
gaurdian of a monor, it would shift the focus of legal action to the
person who made the false claim before the Notory/Justice of the
Peace, rather than Nova Roma.
Drusus
Drusus
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Changing the Constitution I (ver. 2): Age of Citizenship |
| From: |
bcatfd@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 19 Jun 2001 04:27:25 -0000 |
|
Salve Consul,
This is excellent, especially the means by which citizens may have
their children join. Still, this includes provisions for the children
of non-citizens to join. There are no safeguards or forms that can
permit us to safely allow the children of non-citizens to join. We
are stretching the safety margin by allowing any minors to become
citizens, but you make a convincing argument in favor of keeping Nova
Roman families together. There is no *compelling* reason to allow
minor children of non-citizens to join, however, and I cannot endorse
this proposal as long as that is allowed.
Vale,
Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus,
Senator Consularis
--- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...>
wrote:
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.
>
> Here I present a second draft of the proposed legislation to allow
young
> persons to hold Citizenship in Nova Roma. I would like to heartily
thank all
> those who participated in the discussion on this topic, and look
forward to
> more input on this draft.
>
> -----
>
> I. This lex is hereby enacted to amend the Constitution of Nova
Roma in such
> manner as to extend the rights of Citizenship to persons who are
not sui
> juris in their domicile, and to undertake alterations to
Constitutional
> mechanisms and institutions appropriate to such a change.
>
> II. Paragraph II.A. of the Constitution is hereby altered to read as
> follows:
>
> ] A. Citizenship
> ] 1. Any person 18 years old or older may apply for Citizenship.
> ] 2. Any person under the age of 18 may, with the written
permission
> ] of their parent or legal guardian according to relevant
> ] macronational law, apply for Citizenship.
> ] a. The Censors shall establish the specific text required
to
> ] establish parental/guardian permission and make such
available
> ] to prospective Citizens.
> ] b. Permission forms shall be filed with the Censors, who
shall
> ] maintain such records until the Citizen reaches the age
of 18.
> ] 3. Citizens' children under the age of 18 may be granted
> ] Citizenship themselves, upon application for such by their
> ] parent or legal guardian, as defined by relevant
macronational
> ] law. Children of Citizens shall not require written
permission
> ] as described in paragraph II.A.2. above.
> ] 4. Citizenship is open to anyone regardless of ethnic
heritage,
> ] gender, religious affiliation, or sexual orientation.
> ] 5. Citizenship may be involuntarily revoked by those means
that
> ] shall be established by law, or may be voluntarily
relinquished
> ] by notification of the censors or by public statement
before
> ] three or more witnesses.
> ] 6. Citizens under the age of 18 may have their Citizenship
> ] relinquished on their behalf by their parent or legal
guardian,
> ] as defined by relevant macronational law, by notification
of the
> ] censors or by public statement before three or more
witnesses.
>
> III. Paragraph II.B. of the Constitution is hereby altered to read
as
> follows:
>
> ] B. The following rights of the Citizens who have reached the age
of
> ] 18 shall be guaranteed, but this enumeration shall not be
taken
> ] to exclude other rights that citizens may possess:
>
> IV. Paragraph II.D.3. of the Constitution is hereby altered to read
as
> follows:
>
> ] 3. Each gens shall, through whatever means it may determine
> ] appropriate, have a paterfamilias (fem. materfamilias) who
> ] shall act as the leader of the gens and speak for it when
> ] necessary. The holder of this position must be registered
> ] as such with the censors. The paterfamilias may, at his or
> ] her discretion, expel members of their gens, or accept new
> ] members into it.
> ] a. The paterfamilias may, at his discretion, exercise the
> ] rights ennumerated in paragraph II.B. of this
Constitution
> ] on behalf of Citizens in their gens under the age of 18,
> ] with the exception of the right to vote (paragraph
II.B.3.)
> ] and the right to join the Ordo Equester (paragraph
II.B.8.).
> ] b. No one under the age of 18 may become paterfamilias of a
> ] gens.
>
> -----
>
> Basically, I've upped the age to 18 and included a clause that the
Censores
> will create the permission slip for parents to sign. This way, we
can
> include a specific clause to the effect of "I acknowledge my child
may be
> exposed to, and participate in, discussions and activities related
to the
> pre-Christian pagan religion of ancient Rome, the Religio Romana,"
or
> something to that effect. That seemed to be the big problem many
people had
> with allowing underage cives whose parents weren't also cives;
hopefully the
> spectre of "stealth paganism" will be lessened. I also fixed the
rewrite of
> paragraph II.D.3.a. so that it makes sense now. :-)
>
> As always, comments are welcome.
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
> email: germa--------s@--------
> AIM: Flavius Vedius
> www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Changing the Constitution I (ver. 2): Age of Citizenship |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 19 Jun 2001 00:34:19 -0700 |
|
Ave,
I just wanted to voice my agreement with the reservations mentioned by
Senator Decius Iunius, Pompeia Cornelia and Iasonus Serenus. I think we
should tread very very carefully when we are dealing with minors. I
think the more conservative the better. The last thing we want is to
have NR involved in a lawsuit that would threaten to shut down our
Micronation just when She is beginning her mission in the World. I
think the addendums that Lucius Sicinus would at least protect us from
some/if not most potential lawsuits.
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
bcatfd@-------- wrote:
>
> Salve Consul,
>
> This is excellent, especially the means by which citizens may have
> their children join. Still, this includes provisions for the children
> of non-citizens to join. There are no safeguards or forms that can
> permit us to safely allow the children of non-citizens to join. We
> are stretching the safety margin by allowing any minors to become
> citizens, but you make a convincing argument in favor of keeping Nova
> Roman families together. There is no *compelling* reason to allow
> minor children of non-citizens to join, however, and I cannot endorse
> this proposal as long as that is allowed.
>
> Vale,
>
> Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus,
> Senator Consularis
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...>
> wrote:
> > Flavius Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.
> >
> > Here I present a second draft of the proposed legislation to allow
> young
> > persons to hold Citizenship in Nova Roma. I would like to heartily
> thank all
> > those who participated in the discussion on this topic, and look
> forward to
> > more input on this draft.
> >
> > -----
> >
> > I. This lex is hereby enacted to amend the Constitution of Nova
> Roma in such
> > manner as to extend the rights of Citizenship to persons who are
> not sui
> > juris in their domicile, and to undertake alterations to
> Constitutional
> > mechanisms and institutions appropriate to such a change.
> >
> > II. Paragraph II.A. of the Constitution is hereby altered to read as
> > follows:
> >
> > ] A. Citizenship
> > ] 1. Any person 18 years old or older may apply for Citizenship.
> > ] 2. Any person under the age of 18 may, with the written
> permission
> > ] of their parent or legal guardian according to relevant
> > ] macronational law, apply for Citizenship.
> > ] a. The Censors shall establish the specific text required
> to
> > ] establish parental/guardian permission and make such
> available
> > ] to prospective Citizens.
> > ] b. Permission forms shall be filed with the Censors, who
> shall
> > ] maintain such records until the Citizen reaches the age
> of 18.
> > ] 3. Citizens' children under the age of 18 may be granted
> > ] Citizenship themselves, upon application for such by their
> > ] parent or legal guardian, as defined by relevant
> macronational
> > ] law. Children of Citizens shall not require written
> permission
> > ] as described in paragraph II.A.2. above.
> > ] 4. Citizenship is open to anyone regardless of ethnic
> heritage,
> > ] gender, religious affiliation, or sexual orientation.
> > ] 5. Citizenship may be involuntarily revoked by those means
> that
> > ] shall be established by law, or may be voluntarily
> relinquished
> > ] by notification of the censors or by public statement
> before
> > ] three or more witnesses.
> > ] 6. Citizens under the age of 18 may have their Citizenship
> > ] relinquished on their behalf by their parent or legal
> guardian,
> > ] as defined by relevant macronational law, by notification
> of the
> > ] censors or by public statement before three or more
> witnesses.
> >
> > III. Paragraph II.B. of the Constitution is hereby altered to read
> as
> > follows:
> >
> > ] B. The following rights of the Citizens who have reached the age
> of
> > ] 18 shall be guaranteed, but this enumeration shall not be
> taken
> > ] to exclude other rights that citizens may possess:
> >
> > IV. Paragraph II.D.3. of the Constitution is hereby altered to read
> as
> > follows:
> >
> > ] 3. Each gens shall, through whatever means it may determine
> > ] appropriate, have a paterfamilias (fem. materfamilias) who
> > ] shall act as the leader of the gens and speak for it when
> > ] necessary. The holder of this position must be registered
> > ] as such with the censors. The paterfamilias may, at his or
> > ] her discretion, expel members of their gens, or accept new
> > ] members into it.
> > ] a. The paterfamilias may, at his discretion, exercise the
> > ] rights ennumerated in paragraph II.B. of this
> Constitution
> > ] on behalf of Citizens in their gens under the age of 18,
> > ] with the exception of the right to vote (paragraph
> II.B.3.)
> > ] and the right to join the Ordo Equester (paragraph
> II.B.8.).
> > ] b. No one under the age of 18 may become paterfamilias of a
> > ] gens.
> >
> > -----
> >
> > Basically, I've upped the age to 18 and included a clause that the
> Censores
> > will create the permission slip for parents to sign. This way, we
> can
> > include a specific clause to the effect of "I acknowledge my child
> may be
> > exposed to, and participate in, discussions and activities related
> to the
> > pre-Christian pagan religion of ancient Rome, the Religio Romana,"
> or
> > something to that effect. That seemed to be the big problem many
> people had
> > with allowing underage cives whose parents weren't also cives;
> hopefully the
> > spectre of "stealth paganism" will be lessened. I also fixed the
> rewrite of
> > paragraph II.D.3.a. so that it makes sense now. :-)
> >
> > As always, comments are welcome.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> > Consul
> >
> > email: germa--------s@--------
> > AIM: Flavius Vedius
> > www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> [Click for Details]
> Click for Details
>
>
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Edictum Provincia California |
| From: |
"Raina Faolan" <GuruPoet@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 19 Jun 2001 04:01:30 -0400 |
|
Congratulations Mater!!
Aeternia
>From: QFabiusMaxmi@--------
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: [novaroma] Edictum Provincia California
>Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:01:00 EDT
>
>I Q. Fabius Maximus Proconsul of California do appoint the citizen Secunda
>Cornelia to be my scriba/accensus for the rest of this year.
>Done this day a.d.XVIII Kal.Quin. MMDCCLIV AUC
>
>Congratulations Cornelia, I know you will do a fine job for CAL.
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
_________________________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Minors as Citizens |
| From: |
QFabiusMaxmi@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 19 Jun 2001 04:09:36 EDT |
|
In a message dated 6/19/2001 12:46:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
scriba_forum@-------- writes:
> Salvete Pompeia, Druso et Omnes:
>
> I am just expanding on your idea of both parents providing a "legal"
> signature, if I may.
Look, I think with everybody running scared about cults and so on and if you
really want
to play it safe, allow no minors in at all. They have to have parents that
are citizens if they want to join. I assume that NR citizens' children
automatically become citizens once they join.
As for safe guards: There are none. These kids today are a lot more
sophisticated then we
were, with scanners and computer savvy they can fool almost anybody. We can
take reasonable precautions and that is all. If they want to fool us they
will. And we won't know it. So, only allow legal adults. If a kid lies and
says he is an adult, then we are reasonably protected, by Internet law he
committed fraud, and the parents can't hold us responsible.
Even if they sue us we can countersue them for not controlling their brat.
Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Incorporation and digital signatures |
| From: |
pcassia@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 19 Jun 2001 11:45:57 -0000 |
|
Drusus writes:
> 2 Digital Signitures are now legal signitures under both New Hampshire
> law (Where Nova Roma is incorparated and under US federal law
> (Electronic Signatures In Global and National Commerce law) so a
> document with a PGP or GPG signiture IS a legal document.
Good thinking! However, Nova Roma is in fact incorporated in Maine (New
Hampshire, while forward-looking in some ways, was so careless as to
lose our first set of papers).
As far as I know, Maine does not yet accept digital signatures. I can
check on this, though.
In re the larger question of identity: I do not support requiring teen-
age Citizens to meet a higher standard of verification than adults. If
I send in a Citizenship application stating that I'm 45 and male, no
one bothers to check before admitting me.
In Pagan groups with which I've been involved, young participants are
asked to get parental permission, which can take the form of an e-mail
as long as the parent gives a phone number for verification. Only if
there's some question would the adults actually call the phone number.
There isn't an ideal solution - we want to encourage young people to
participate, but we also want to make sure their parents are aware of
what they're doing. I think this is a step forward.
P. Cassia
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Incorporation and digital signatures |
| From: |
"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 19 Jun 2001 12:25:16 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, pcassia@j... wrote:
> Drusus writes:
> > 2 Digital Signitures are now legal signitures under both New
Hampshire
> > law (Where Nova Roma is incorparated and under US federal law
> > (Electronic Signatures In Global and National Commerce law) so a
> > document with a PGP or GPG signiture IS a legal document.
>
> Good thinking! However, Nova Roma is in fact incorporated in Maine
(New
> Hampshire, while forward-looking in some ways, was so careless as
to
> lose our first set of papers).
>
Salve,
Then while we are tidying up the Constitution we need to revise
section I C. which currently reads
"This Constitution shall serve as the bylaws for Nova Roma, a legally
incorporated entity in the state of New Hampshire, USA (hereafter
referred to as "the corporation")....."
and correct this page,
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/articles.html
Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Citizenship Diploma Idea |
| From: |
Marcus Bianchius Antonius <imperialreign@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 19 Jun 2001 06:07:44 -0700 (PDT) |
|
I like your idea of Latin only.
Marcus Bianchius Antonius
--- Pompeia Cornelia <scriba_forum@--------> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes:
>
> I just had the pleasure of chatting on the telephone
> with my Provincial
> Retarius Officium, Amulius Claudius Petrus.
>
> I proposed to him a few thoughts on the Citizenship
> Diplomas, and I wanted
> to run these thoughts by the populace.
>
> There has been much discussion about offering the
> diplomas in various
> languages.
>
> While this is a very desirable notion superficially,
> it might affect
> production of the diplomas in the following ways:
>
> The margin for error increases, due to having to
> print these in 6 or 7
> different languages.
>
> The cost of production increases, as printing in
> large quantities goes out
> the window, by virtue of less numbers of
> certificates being done for each of
> the different languages in question.
>
> In my opinion, the solution is plain: We are
> Romans, right? I think the
> diplomas would be equally meaningful to everyone in
> Nova Roma if they were
> printed in LATIN!!
>
> I feel, that the Latin Diploma hanging on one's
> wall, would generate as much
> attention as a Diploma worded in ones native tongue.
> People will not
> understand what is written, and they will ask "Hey,
> what is this, anyway?"
> And you can tell them all about Nova Roma :)
>
> Also, the entire presentation of a diploma in Latin
> would be so very Roman
> and authentic looking.
>
> And, it would be very easy to aquire the appropriate
> Latin verbage for the
> certificate (we have a whole Sodalitas dedicated to
> this pursuit), and the
> translation is really only a request away.
>
> What do you all think about this, fellow Novae
> Romae? If you don't like this
> notion, I would rather hear "Po, that idea is really
> a groaner", than
> nothing at all. So let us know whatcha
> think........K????
>
> Nothing is etched in stone yet, we are just fishing
> for ideas to come up
> with a product that is reasonably inexpensive to
> produce and desirable to
> the citizens.
>
> Bene valete!
>
> Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
> Propraetrix, Canada Orientalis
> NOVA ROMA
>
>
_________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: De Lingua Gentium |
| From: |
gaius_quirinus@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 19 Jun 2001 13:39:18 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, Yann Quéré <--------re@l...> wrote:
> Salve Gai Quirine
>
> Verus es ! (I cannot go further in Latin, Non posso dire più nell'
latino)
for this we can create a Latinus Sermo page that can explain in few
days the bases of the latin language: declinations, verbs...
>
> English Version
> You are perfectly correct, but what do you think
> to try a partnership with altavista
> to issue a latin-other language traduction device ?
> We certainly have within NR latin specialists,
> which I am not unfortunately, who have already
> conceived such devices ? Am I wrong ?
> By the way, this could produce income ?
>
> Versione Italiana
> Siete perfettamente vero, ma che cosa pensate per provare un'
> associazione con il altavista per pubblicare un latino-altro
> dispositivo di traduzione ?
> Certamente abbiamo all'interno degli esperti latini di NR, che non
> sono purtroppo, che già ha concepito tali dispositivi? Sono errato?
> A proposito, questo ha potuto produrre i soldi per NR?
>
>
> Version française
> Vous avez parfaitement raison, et que pensez-vous d'un partenariat
> avec Altavista afin de mettre en place un traducteur de latin
> vers une autre langue et vice versa ? Nous avons sûrement parmi les
> citoyens de NR des latinistes émérites, dont je ne suis pas
malheureusement,
> qui ont déjà conçu de tels outils ? Je me trompe ?
> A propos, cela pourrait générer des revenus ?
> Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio
> Propraetor Galliae
Salve Iano Querio
for the problem of the knowing of latin we can create a Latinus Sermo
page that can explain in few days the bases of the latin language:
declinations, verbs...
When we now latin, the partnership whit altavista could be utilized
only to do money, a kind of on-line-vocabulary...
Vale
Gaius Quirinus Italicus Caesar
--Nihil amorem Urbem superare potest: Roma nunc et semper!--
..i'm one of those that don't know english...
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Minors as Citizens |
| From: |
"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 19 Jun 2001 16:56:30 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, QFabiusMaxmi@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/19/2001 12:46:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> scriba_forum@-------- writes:
>
>
> > Salvete Pompeia, Druso et Omnes:
> >
> > I am just expanding on your idea of both parents providing
a "legal"
> > signature, if I may.
>
> Look, I think with everybody running scared about cults and so on
and if you
> really want
> to play it safe, allow no minors in at all. They have to have
parents that
> are citizens if they want to join. I assume that NR citizens'
children
> automatically become citizens once they join.
> As for safe guards: There are none. These kids today are a lot
more
> sophisticated then we
> were, with scanners and computer savvy they can fool almost
anybody. We can
> take reasonable precautions and that is all. If they want to fool
us they
> will. And we won't know it. So, only allow legal adults. If a
kid lies and
> says he is an adult, then we are reasonably protected, by Internet
law he
> committed fraud, and the parents can't hold us responsible.
> Even if they sue us we can countersue them for not controlling
their brat.
>
> Valete
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
Salvete,
The only way that we can insure that we aren't sued is to disband
Nova Roma, and leave no one to be sued. Beyond that anything we do
will carry a risk that someone will attempt legal action against us.
The questions we have to ask are "Do we get enough benifits out of
this to offset a risk of legal action?" and if the answer is
yes, "How can we minimize the risk of legal action?"
As far as allowing the children of citizens become citizens, I think
the benifits far outweigh the risks. The children of non-citizens is
another matter. In this case the risks are far higher, so will the
benifits Nova Roma gains by allowing these minors to join offset the
increased risks? So far I haven't heard a compelling argument that
would allow me to answer yes to this question.
Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Romans on TV |
| From: |
"Gaius Valerius Tacitus Hibernicus" <legioix@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 19 Jun 2001 17:25:18 -0000 |
|
Tonight at 10pm, on the HISTORY CHANNEL, some members of Provincia California's Legio IX Hispana appear in an episode
of "Battle Gear"
Hibernicus
LEG IX HSPA
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/legixhispana
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/testudojune3
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem XIII Kalendas Quinctilias (June 19th) |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 19 Jun 2001 18:48:35 +0100 |
|
Salvete omnes
This is one of the dies comitiales (C), when committees of citizens can vote
on political or criminal matters.
Today is a festival of the temple of Minerva on the Aventine Hill. As the
aniversary of the 'dedicatio' was March 19, this may have been the date of a
later restoration.
I also remind that Iunius is the month of Iuno, month of the young
(iuuenes).
Dii vos bene ament
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Reenactment |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 19 Jun 2001 15:54:54 -0400 (EDT) |
|
NR Citizens;
For anyone who might be interested, I will be involved in a Rev War
Reenactment at Monmouth Battlefield Park in New Jersey. I will be
located in the British Camp with the Highland Brigade (42nd Regment of
Foot--Black Watch) should anyone desire to have a face to face.
Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] 100 Days Report--Provincia Nova Britannia |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 19 Jun 2001 17:09:20 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Honored Consuls, Censors, Senators, Magistrates, Citizens of Nova
Britannia Provincia, and Citizens of Nova Roma;
I beg your leave, most humbly, to make the "100 Day Report For Provincia
Nova Britannia". This report reflects the activity undertaken in the
first 100 days of the appointment of ProConsul Marcus Mnucius Audens as
Govenor and ProConsul of Provinca Nova Britannia by the Senate of Nova
Roma, in association with the Provincia Staff as appointed:
Earlier in the year I submitted a Plan of Action consisting of 19 Points
to the Honored Consuls for thier approval. They have very graciously
agreed to let me proceed with the plan as presented and have
additionally provided me with advice on my procedure for which I am most
grateful. The below report will be centered around that proffered
plan:--
General:-- In the period of 100 Days, some of my plans have been
interrupted by personal situations which have arisen, both with some of
those whom I was privaledged to have with me and some from the lack of
time at home due to my Reenactment endeavors. For these disruptions I
beg you very kind indulgence:
>>>>Obtain a List of the Citizens f Nova Roma:--
I have obtained this list on 30 March from Censor Sulla. I thank him
most sincerely for his efforts.
>>>>Establish a Nova Roma Website:--
The excellent legates of Regio Massachusetts and Regio Maine have
already taken care of that item and the Website is on line. The address
is directly below:
shinjikun@--------
>>>>Contact all Regio Legates and confirm thier appointments:--
The following appointments have been made or offered:
-----Legate Hadrianus--Regio Massachusetts--accepted / appointed;
-----Legate Julianus--Regio Maine--accepted / appointed;
-----Former Legate of Rhode Island--made the offer, no response;
-----Former Legate of Vermont (Acting)--made a special offer, no
response;
-----Legate of New Hampshire--no candidate, (I have sent out one
questionaire);
-----Legate Marcus Audens of Regio Connecticut--reconfirmed -- Pro Tem
until another candidate requests consideration.
>>>>Form a Provincial Council--All Legates and Staff;
The Provincial Council has not yet been formally established. I plan to
do so when all citizens have been contacted, when all have had a chance
to join the Provincial Staff and when my "100 Day Report is issued. At
that time I will formalize the Council.
>>>>Review "Limes Incorp." for possible involvement;
The Limes Corporation being an organization of Provinces and Prov.
Govenors within NR who have established some guidelines for mutual
assistance along those lines.
Since the writing of this Plan another organization of ProConsuls and
ProPraetors has come into being, which has been a source of new ideas as
well. I have not had the liesure to investigate "Limes Incorp." as yet,
but I have several good recommendations for doing so, and I will presume
to contact them when I have formalized the Prov. Council.
>>>>Offer a "Provincial Brotherhood Alliance" to neighboring / adjoining
provinces;
The brotherhood Alliance was an idea arising out of the possible sharing
in events / activities in adjoining provinces.
Planned after formalizing Prov. Council.
>>>>Establish a Monthly Newsletter for the Eagle;
The newsletter is for the support of the NR "Eagle" newsletter and for
the advertisement of this province. This idea is undertaken as a
"product" of the Provincia Nova Britannia. The next thing, as it were,
to a face-to-face meeting.
I had recruited an excellent Editor for the above newsletter (Prima
Lucilla Cornelia Fortunata) and she had produced a rough copy of it and
sent it to me in a format that I could not read. I have just recently
found out that she is recovering from a serious operation, and will not
be able to rejoin the Provincia for some time.
I have in the mean time, contacted another lady (Hyapatia Asinia
Margali) who is willing to fill-in until the Editor returns, as Editor
Pro-Tem. There are also three members of the Newsletter Staff,
previously recruited, to recontact and bring up to date on this
situation. I am currently waiting to hear from these three Staff
Members.
The Provincial Staff is currently researchng a suitable Logo for the
Provincial Newsletter.
>>>>Make Formal Edicta Regarding Appointments;
I have placed on the Main List my Formal Edicta for the following
appointments:
-----Legate of Massachsetts-Hadrianus;
-----Legate of Maine-Julianus;
-----Librae-Major Nerva;
-----Scribae Quintillianus;
-----Editor Pro-Tem Margali.
>>>>Establish a Formal Provincial Recognition Program;
The purpose of this program would be to show the appreciation of the
Citizens of this Provincia for those who have labored to bring the
Provincia to it's present level of organization, and to carry on with
the plans for further organization in the future.
No action. My Staff willl address this item after the formalization of
the Provincial Council.
>>>>Establish and Publish a Provincial Budget;
A sum of $20.00 has been donated to the Provincia for General Use. When
the sum reaches $100, it is my intention to establish a Budget and
appoint a Financial Scribae to take care of it.
>>>>Prepare and deliver a "First 100 days Provincial Report" on or
before June 19, 2001;
Issued.
>>>>Contact all Citizens in the Provincia upon reciept of the Citizen
List;
Libreii Major Nerva, Scribae Quintillianus and myself have completed
that effort. Libreii Major Nerva has reported his 15 notifications
complete with the two failed E-Mail addrsses reported to the Censors. I
am notified that the second half of the 32 members of the Provincia have
also been contacted. If there is any member of the Provincia who has
not recieved a personal notification from myself or my staff please
contact me directly. This project has been completed.
>>>>Contact other Nova Roma Govenors and ask for Program suggestions and
ideas;
I have contacted several other Govenors, and have saved thier ideas and
responses in my Provincia File (hard copy), for further review following
this report.
>>>>Begin preparations for a Provincial Annual Report;
The "100 Day Provincial Report" is my preparation at this point.
>>>>Develop a Provincial Brochure and Handout;
This idea was that the provincia should have it's own brochure to place
in local libraries, bookstores around the NE. Northeasterners are proud
of their region and are on the lookout for something familiar and
somethng they can identify with.
No action. I plan to submit this item to my staff for ideas after the
Provincial Council is formalized
>>>>Develop a Provincial Outreach Program in accordance wth Sodalitas
Egressus;
Sodalitas Egressus is currently undergoing an election. When the
election is over I will contact the Egressus to inquire about the
possibility.
>>>>Establish a Permanent Provincial Annual Program;
Three sites in Nova Britannia have been identified as possible areas to
visit:
--Museum of Art in Boston;
--Musum of Antiquities in New Haven;
--Museum of Arms in Wooster;
There may well be more, and the appointed Legates are working on
identifying further possibilities. Then there is a possibility of
Annual Meetings together with the above cultural meetings, both of which
have been enjoyed in this province in past years. A rough plan of three
events per year is proposed, with an Annual Meeting, a Cultural Meeting,
and Roman Days. A fourth possibility would be one of the two events
currently being planned in New York and Canada. These options will be
offered when the Prov. Council is formalized.
So far this year, there have been three cultural opportunities (Wooster,
Boston, New Haven), one face-to-face dinner meeting, and the Roman Days
in Maryland, all of which were significantly attended from Citizens of
this Provincia. A second planned face to face luncheon meeting between
myself and Mistress Margali took place on Friday, June 15th.
>>>>Develop a Provincial Military Program in accordance with the
Sodalitus Militarium;
No Action. I plan to submit this item to the Militarium Staff after the
formalization of the Provincial Council.
>>>>Contact other Sodalitas with a eye to establishing Provincial
activities relating to the varius aspects of these other organizations;
No Action. I plan to submit this item to my Staff for ideas after the
formalization of the Provincial Council.
I fully realize that this is an ambitious program, but it emcompasses
the elements that I feel need to be immediately addressed in the
Provincia. WE shall undertake to complete this outline to the best of
OUR ability,and WE pledge to keep the Senate and Senior Magistrates
appraised of OUR progress during the year.
Very Respectfully Submitted;
Marcus Minucius Audens
ProConsul -- Provincia Nova Britannia -- Nova Roma
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Minors as Citizens (addendum) |
| From: |
Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 19 Jun 2001 16:14:18 -0700 (PDT) |
|
Salvete omnes.
> --- In novaroma@--------, "Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> > Salvete Drusus et Omnes:
> >
> > I am just expanding on your idea of both parents providing a
> "legal"
> > signature, if I may. What if both parents were to provide
> documentation to
> > a Notore public (spelling that right?) for the U.S. and a Justice
> of
> the
> > Peace for Canada, or the European Equivalent. These people have a
> seal which
> > they affix on any sworn documentation. I am sure there is such an
> > equivalent, but I don't know what the title is. Perhaps one of our
> European
> > citizens could enlighten us.
I am not sure about other European nations; in Spain, those particular
bloodsuckers are called "notarios". The cost of such a certification
would be around the equivalent of 10 US$.
=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Minors as Citizens (addendum) |
| From: |
"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 19 Jun 2001 23:48:36 -0000 |
|
Salve Gnaeus Salix Astur:
Yes, those would most likely be the bloodsuckers in question :)
Well amice, if they are bloodsuckers why then don't they call them
notorietos?
Just wonderin' (grin)
Pompeia
>From: Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Minors as Citizens (addendum)
>Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 16:14:18 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Salvete omnes.
>
> > --- In novaroma@--------, "Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> > > Salvete Drusus et Omnes:
> > >
> > > I am just expanding on your idea of both parents providing a
> > "legal"
> > > signature, if I may. What if both parents were to provide
> > documentation to
> > > a Notore public (spelling that right?) for the U.S. and a Justice
> > of
> > the
> > > Peace for Canada, or the European Equivalent. These people have a
> > seal which
> > > they affix on any sworn documentation. I am sure there is such an
> > > equivalent, but I don't know what the title is. Perhaps one of our
> > European
> > > citizens could enlighten us.
>
>I am not sure about other European nations; in Spain, those particular
>bloodsuckers are called "notarios". The cost of such a certification
>would be around the equivalent of 10 US$.
>
>
>=====
>Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
>Gnaeus Salix Astur.
>Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.
>
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