Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] RE: Consular Edictum: Resignation from Offices
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 02:07:34 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Recently Consul Vedius issued an edictum to remove any doubt about
what happens when a civis resigns his citizenship and offices, and
then takes advantage of our 9-day reconsideration period and returns.

Hitherto we have had the good tradition of allowing the offices to be
resumed with the citizenship. This has the considerable advantage of
making new elections unnecessary, and getting somebody back into the
office vacated as soon as possible - indeed the person who won the
popular mandate at the previous elections and who had been doing the
job.

I am more deeply concerned that the present edictum is simply another
example of the punitive tendency of many to express their anger at
those who don't do as the angry ones would like. We saw that in the
nasty and childish provisions in recent legislation to make problems
for cives who having left voluntarily, voluntarily wish to return.
Now we see it again in this edictum - someone is irritated that
someone dares to leave an office, and wishes to cause trouble for the
whole community just to get back at the person who leaves and
returns.

Even more deeply disturbing is the obvious fact that protest as such
is being shown disrespect here. It is assumed that something is wrong
with finding anything amiss with this paradisiacal oligarchy and that
feeling frustrated is illegitimate. However, I say that protest is a
sign of caring, expressing it through resignation is a sign of
caring, and return is a sign of caring.

And frustration is the normal order of the day as long as a few cling
to the reins of power, give it spurious democratic credibility with a
weighted voting system, exclude others with more liberal values, and
repeatedly pass laws designed to punish protest such as this last.

Some people lack a sense of the moral struggles that some of us go
through to remain here and try to improve things against the odds.
If any "mistakes" are being made by persons leaving and returning to
take up their office again, I suspect that it is in the returning.
The new edict might decrease incidences of this mistake by
discouraging return. This might be good for the peace of mind of the
individuals concerned, but would be bad for the Respublica, which
needs every critic it can keep.

There is nothing that can be done at this moment except to express
intense disappointment with the nature of this edictum. So, I do so.
This is taking us down the wrong road still further. We had a good
tradition in this matter...why destroy it?

Valete!
_________________________________________________
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Psterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
Aedilis Plebeius, Amicus Dignitatis
Magister Scholae Latinae
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
Gens Apollonia: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
The Gens Apollonia is accepting new members.
____________________________________________________
All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph in the world is for
enough good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
___________________________________________________

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Subject:	[novaroma] A few questions
From:	"Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa" <vipsaniusagrippa@-------->
Date:	Tue, 19 Jun 2001 20:09:05 -0600

Salvete

A few questions

1) Is there a god/goddess/numen/numina associated with cold, snow, frost,
bad weather, etc? I know Neptune is associated with earthquakes and other
natural disasters.

2) There is an episode of The Simpsons where Sideshow Bob's brother Cecil
says he heard the calling to be chief hydrological engineer. Sideshow Bob
then says no civilisation in history has ever considered that a calling.
Cecil coughs politely and Bob replies "Fine, the Cappadocians" Does anyone
know anything about this? I know Cappadocia is along the southern coast of
Turkey and was also a Roman province.

3) Marcus Agrippa was awarded a blue flag for his naval victories. Was
there any design or writing on it or was it simply plain blue?

4) I recently saw an e-mail from Consul Germanicus about expanding the
constitution concerning provincial appointees. The part about provincial
sacerdotes was interesting. Would these be appointed solely by the
propraetor or by the pontifices?

Thank you for your time,

Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa
_________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Flags
From:	bsmith3121@--------
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 02:09:59 -0000

Salvete,

As a new citizen of Nova Roma, I am very interested in having the
Nova Roma flag fly from a standard in my home. I wrote the e-mail
address on the web page, but have not received a response. Does
anyone know if the flags are available?

Caius Titinius Varus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] RE: Consular Edictum: Resignation from Offices
From:	Antonius Corvus Septimius <antoniuscorvusseptimius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 19 Jun 2001 20:55:27 -0700 (PDT)

--- "M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> wrote:
>
> M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
> Recently Consul Vedius issued an edictum to remove
> any doubt about
> what happens when a civis resigns his citizenship
> and offices, and
> then takes advantage of our 9-day reconsideration
> period and returns.
>
> Hitherto we have had the good tradition of allowing
> the offices to be
> resumed with the citizenship. This has the
> considerable advantage of
> making new elections unnecessary, and getting
> somebody back into the
> office vacated as soon as possible - indeed the
> person who won the
> popular mandate at the previous elections and who
> had been doing the
> job.
>
> I am more deeply concerned that the present edictum
> is simply another
> example of the punitive tendency of many to express
> their anger at
> those who don't do as the angry ones would like. We
> saw that in the
> nasty and childish provisions in recent legislation
> to make problems
> for cives who having left voluntarily, voluntarily
> wish to return.
> Now we see it again in this edictum - someone is
> irritated that
> someone dares to leave an office, and wishes to
> cause trouble for the
> whole community just to get back at the person who
> leaves and
> returns.
>
> Even more deeply disturbing is the obvious fact that
> protest as such
> is being shown disrespect here. It is assumed that
> something is wrong
> with finding anything amiss with this paradisiacal
> oligarchy and that
> feeling frustrated is illegitimate. However, I say
> that protest is a
> sign of caring, expressing it through resignation is
> a sign of
> caring, and return is a sign of caring.
>
> And frustration is the normal order of the day as
> long as a few cling
> to the reins of power, give it spurious democratic
> credibility with a
> weighted voting system, exclude others with more
> liberal values, and
> repeatedly pass laws designed to punish protest such
> as this last.
>
> Some people lack a sense of the moral struggles that
> some of us go
> through to remain here and try to improve things
> against the odds.
> If any "mistakes" are being made by persons leaving
> and returning to
> take up their office again, I suspect that it is in
> the returning.
> The new edict might decrease incidences of this
> mistake by
> discouraging return. This might be good for the
> peace of mind of the
> individuals concerned, but would be bad for the
> Respublica, which
> needs every critic it can keep.
>
> There is nothing that can be done at this moment
> except to express
> intense disappointment with the nature of this
> edictum. So, I do so.
> This is taking us down the wrong road still further.
> We had a good
> tradition in this matter...why destroy it?
>
> Valete!
Antonius Corvus Septimius Marce Apollonie Formosane
S.P.D.

As a citizen of Nova Roma how can I trust one who
makes an irrational decision on leaving a position
which most of us do not take lightly? I for one would
not vote for that person. No matter what ideology they
express.Not out of anger, hate, or simply because of
ideological differences (because I am not a shallow
person to evoke those primitive ape-like responses).
We can all respect differences (I hope).But, can all
of us respect a person (politically speaking) who
leaves their post at the expense of the S.P.Q.R?
I would like to also know more about this "wrong
road". To what are you reffering sir?
And please, take no offense. As these are not loaded
questions. They simply are asked with no hostility
toward anyone.
Vale Bene, Antonius Corvus Septimius

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A few questions
From:	"Raina Faolan" <GuruPoet@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 00:18:21 -0400

Salve,

Sadly, I can only answer or at least share a hypothetical opinion on
question Prima. I feel Ceres could be identified with snow or frost,
especially the myth of the capture of Prosperina. Remember when Prosperina
was abducted by Pluto and Ceres mourned, when she mourned so did the earth
making it cold and barren? Okay, just an insight hopefully it will help.

Vale,
Aeternia

>From: "Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa" <vipsaniusagrippa@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: [novaroma] A few questions
>Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 20:09:05 -0600
>
>Salvete
>
>A few questions
>
>1) Is there a god/goddess/numen/numina associated with cold, snow, frost,
>bad weather, etc? I know Neptune is associated with earthquakes and other
>natural disasters.
>
>2) There is an episode of The Simpsons where Sideshow Bob's brother Cecil
>says he heard the calling to be chief hydrological engineer. Sideshow Bob
>then says no civilisation in history has ever considered that a calling.
>Cecil coughs politely and Bob replies "Fine, the Cappadocians" Does anyone
>know anything about this? I know Cappadocia is along the southern coast of
>Turkey and was also a Roman province.
>
>3) Marcus Agrippa was awarded a blue flag for his naval victories. Was
>there any design or writing on it or was it simply plain blue?
>
>4) I recently saw an e-mail from Consul Germanicus about expanding the
>constitution concerning provincial appointees. The part about provincial
>sacerdotes was interesting. Would these be appointed solely by the
>propraetor or by the pontifices?
>
>Thank you for your time,
>
>Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A few questions
From:	"=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Val=E9ry_Vitale_Sinitsine?=" <triglav@-------->
Date:	Tue, 19 Jun 2001 21:28:40 -0600

Salve,

All I know about Cappadocians is that they were one of the early Christian
theologians. I don't know if that helps.

P. Flavius Callidus

----------
From: Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa <vipsaniusagrippa@-------->
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] A few questions
Date: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 8:09 PM

Salvete

[snip]

2) There is an episode of The Simpsons where Sideshow Bob's brother Cecil
says he heard the calling to be chief hydrological engineer. Sideshow Bob
then says no civilisation in history has ever considered that a calling.
Cecil coughs politely and Bob replies "Fine, the Cappadocians" Does anyone

know anything about this? I know Cappadocia is along the southern coast of

Turkey and was also a Roman province

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] De Lingua Gentium
From:	CmndrZil@--------
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 01:24:55 EDT

In a message dated 6/18/01 6:39:19 PM, yquere@-------- writes:

>English Version
>You are perfectly correct, but what do you think
>to try a partnership with altavista
>to issue a latin-other language traduction device ?
>We certainly have within NR latin specialists,
>which I am not unfortunately, who have already
>conceived such devices ? Am I wrong ?
>By the way, this could produce income ?

I have a couple of thoughts just to play devil's advocate. Altavista would
destroy Latin. Anything I've ever translated with it doesn't make any sense.
It is a beautiful thing, and Virgil's language shouldn't be subjected to
that kind of torture. Second, to be quite honest, it encourages laziness.
Not that English doesn't, but if we were to make Latin the official language
of NR, we need to learn to speak it.

Italian Version:

In un messaggio datato 6/18/01 di 6:39:19 PM, yquere@-------- scrive: >
versione inglese > siete perfettamente corretti, ma che cosa pensate >
provare un' associazione con il altavista > pubblicare un latino-altro
dispositivo di diffamazione di linguaggio? > certamente abbiamo all'interno
degli esperti latini di NR, > che non sono purtroppo, che ha gi� > ha
concepito tali dispositivi? Sono errato? > a proposito, questo ha potuto
produrre il reddito?

Ho appena una coppia dei pensieri per giocare il fautore del diavolo.
Altavista distrugg il Latino. Qualche cosa che abbia tradotto mai con esso
non ha alcun significato. � una cosa bella ed il linguaggio di Virgil non
dovrebbe essere sottoposto a quello gentile di tortura. In secondo luogo,
essere abbastanza onesto, consiglia al laziness. Non quell' inglese non, ma
se dovessimo rendere a Latino la lingua ufficiale di NR, dobbiamo imparare
parlarla.

(Spero che senso di marche. Non mi fido delle macchine... )

Tarquinia Euphemia

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Subject:	[novaroma] Virtual temple
From:	"Gaius Marcius Coriolanus" <coriolanus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 05:26:10 -0000

Quirites

What must citizen do if he wants to build a virtual temple to chosen
God? Is it necessary to get pontifex approvement ? Are there any
rules or laws on this issue? Are there any necessary things that
temple must contain?

Ave et Vale

Gaius Marcius Coriolanus

" Censer Carthaginem esse delendam "

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Virtual temple
From:	"Raina Faolan" <GuruPoet@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 02:50:01 -0400

Salvete Iterum,

I hope no one minds if I take a crack at this. My further comments below :-)

>From: "Gaius Marcius Coriolanus" <coriolanus@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: [novaroma] Virtual temple
>Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 05:26:10 -0000
>
>Quirites
>
>What must citizen do if he wants to build a virtual temple to chosen
>God?

Aeternia: Now is this a private temple or public for Nova Roma?

Is it necessary to get pontifex approvement ?

Aeternia: Honestly no clue, but since most of the Pontiff's subscribe to the
mainlist I am sure they'll be happy to answer for you. (Now that sounded
patronizing sheesh!)

Are there any
>rules or laws on this issue?

Aeternia: Personally, I don't see why there would be laws for Temples.
I'm guessing as long as they aren't demeaning towards the deity and a level
of respectibility is involved. It's better Aeternia does not touch this
question and let the Pontiff's answer.

Are there any necessary things that
>temple must contain?

Aeternia: The only "neccessities" for a temple (and this my opinion only)
would be Sacred Songs (prayers) Information on how the worship of the
particular deity/deities began, deities that have a relation or similar
power to your honored deity. There's more but that's what I can think of at
the moment, good luck, hopefully this has helped somewhat. My apologies
upfront, if this sounds patronizing it wasn't the intention.

Vale,
R. Cornelia Aeternia
>
>
>Ave et Vale
>
>Gaius Marcius Coriolanus
>
>" Censer Carthaginem esse delendam "
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A few questions
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 17:14:05 +1000 (EST)

Salve Gaius Vipsanius,

I'm not too sure about this, but I remember somewhere
hearing that it was due to the fact that it was an
fairly arid region, and that not much grew there. I
also remember reading that irrigation was fundamental
in that area, and so a cheif Hydrological engineer
would have a great deal of standing in Cappadocian
society.

Not sure on the exacts, but from memory I think the
book I read it in was called something along the lines
og "The Cappadocians: The middlemen in the Ancient
World".

Hope this helps,

Vale bene,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

Legatus Australia Medius
Sacerdos Mars Invictus

--- Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa
<vipsaniusagrippa@--------> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Salvete 
 
A few questions 
 
1) Is there a god/goddess/numen/numina associated with
cold, snow, frost, 
bad weather, etc? I know Neptune is associated with
earthquakes and other 
natural disasters. 
 
2) There is an episode of The Simpsons where Sideshow
Bob's brother Cecil 
says he heard the calling to be chief hydrological
engineer. Sideshow Bob 
then says no civilisation in history has ever
considered that a calling. 
Cecil coughs politely and Bob replies "Fine, the
Cappadocians" Does anyone 
know anything about this? I know Cappadocia is
along the southern coast of 
Turkey and was also a Roman province. 
 
3) Marcus Agrippa was awarded a blue flag for his
naval victories. Was 
there any design or writing on it or was it simply
plain blue? 
 
4) I recently saw an e-mail from Consul Germanicus
about expanding the 
constitution concerning provincial appointees.
The part about provincial 
sacerdotes was interesting. Would these be
appointed solely by the 
propraetor or by the pontifices? 
 
Thank you for your time, 
 
Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa 
_________________________________________________________________________ 
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at <a
href="http://www.hotmail.com.">http://www.hotmail.com.</a> 
 
</tt>

 



<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] RE: Consular Edictum: Resignation from Offices
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 04:41:03 EDT

<< M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D. said:

Recently Consul Vedius issued an edictum to remove any doubt about
what happens when a civis resigns his citizenship and offices, and
then takes advantage of our 9-day reconsideration period and returns.
>>
Q. Fabius Maximus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D

Since the Tribunes or the Jr. Consul did not veto it, the Edictum stands. I
hope the next Consul does not renew it.
My reasoning is simple. On the Internet, nine days is not a huge amount of
time.
And we should stay consistant with the lex. Consistancy is very important
when it comes to credibility.

Valete

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A few questions
From:	Kristoffer From <from@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 11:52:11 +0200

Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa wrote:
> 1) Is there a god/goddess/numen/numina associated with cold, snow, frost,
> bad weather, etc? I know Neptune is associated with earthquakes and other
> natural disasters.

Salve, Gai Vipsani Agrippa.

I believe there were no Gods for these "bad" phenomena, instead they
were the natural order, and thus only showed up in the absence of the
God(s) opposing it. For instance, in Aeternia's example of Ceres
mourning, Ceres withdrew his protection, which rendered the world barren
and cold. The Gods were the protectors of man in his struggle against
the world, and not associated with his adversaries.

Just my interpretation, I don't really know anything. This is just the
way I've come to believe the pagan religion worked/works.

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consiliarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS d- s:++> a-- C++>$ ULS++ P+ L++ E- W++(--) N
o-- K- w--- !O M-- V-- PS->$ PE- Y+ PGP- t+@ 5- X-
R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !x-
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Minors as Citizens
From:	"Jeroen Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:53:10 +0200

Salvete Quirites,

How about this: you could place on the site following disclaimer: "Nova Roma
is not responsible for any consequences beyond its own jurisdiction that are
a result of one of its members". I know that beginning to place such things
on your site reeks of porn, but perhaps it would be an easy and effective
means to rule out possible trials, or parents who are angry because their 8
year old sacrificed his dog to Iuppiter Optimus Maximus. My only question
would be if such disclaimers have any legal power.

Frankly, I find the cautious talking about a possible lawsuit from extreme
christians a bit silly, bearing in mind that when I had my reservations
about the lex regarding the tax system (that there wasn't a differentiation
between people not willing and people not able to pay), my reservations were
seen as too bureaucratical, and I was a pc stick-in-the-mud. I'm not saying
the dangers are unrealistic (at least not in the US), but so were my earlier
arguments regarding that other lex from a few months ago.

Anyway, in conclusion, I agree with some of the legal arguments raised. We
do need a better protection from fundamentalists and whatnot. But we
shouldn't drop what's basically a very good proposal just for the sake of
those details, that can be changed. I think Consul Vedius did a fine job.

Valete bene,
Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A few questions
From:	margali <margali@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:14:50 -0400

Well, since I just finished erecting the temple to Ceres [
http://www.geocities.com/margali99maincom/TempleofCeres.html ]
you could worship there, but I didn't really find any information
that would lead me to link her with nasty weather, unless you are
trying to save your crops ;-) Iuppiter/Jupiter/Jove is the 'sky'
god, wind, thunder and the like. Isn't Vertumnus the goddess of
the seasons?

You might try Bullfinche's Mythology at http://www.bulfinch.org/
, or perhaps
http://home.klis.com/~cara/project/roman/roman.htm
http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/deities.html

margali

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Virtual temple
From:	margali <margali@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:20:59 -0400

Well, I saw a need for Ceres [living on a farm and possessing a
black thumb, my asparagus needs all the help it can get ;-) ] I
simply made a virtual temple, and posted it online and asked for
feedback. When about 2 weeks had passed, Marcus Arminius Maior,
the Aedilis Plebis following the tradition of Rome declared my
Temple to be official. Made me quite happy ;-)

Of course, I am also working on a physical shrine as well, and
have it partially done [nothing planted yet, it got too late a
start this year] but the way it is planned, it will stand in
ceremonially for any garden plot for Nova Romans. I plan on
planting representational plants [various grains, legumes,
veggies and herbs - typically two or three of each] that will end
up as the sacrifices.

margali
http://www.geocities.com/margali99maincom/TempleofCeres.html

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Subject:	[novaroma] Xtreme Xtians
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:30:57 -0000

>>Frankly, I find the cautious talking about a possible lawsuit from
extreme christians a bit silly<<

Salve Sexte Apolloni,

You need to vist us here in Tennessee, USA and you would not see the
possibility as so remote. ;-) Some of these people are completely
over the edge.

Vale,
Gaius Popillius Laenas

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Subject:	[novaroma] Minors
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 11:08:54 -0400 (EDT)

Citizens of NR;

I tend to agree with my Senatorial Colleague, Quintus Fabius Maximus in
regard to the Minor question. Firstly, for the amount of security, and
concern we are expending in this matter, I am not at all sure what
advantage the micronation will reap from this action except a certain
satisfaction on the part of the parents, and a fleeting satisfacton on
the part of a few minors who may understand what we are doing and
risking for them.

I also wish to remind the NR citizens of those in the Christain world,
who see Paganism as a blight, and who would be able to rally a very
large and significant opposition to NR should even one small incident
regarding minors result. Minors themselves, will not realize the risk
that we as a nation run for them, nor will they be able to assist us
significantly in any specific way, in my opinion.

I am sure that my words will be blasted on this list, by those who have
not yet reached maturity age by law, and the parents of such, but I ask
all to consider carefully, from your experience; can and will your
children listen carefully and appreciate fully the seriousness of the
problem that NR faces should any faction opposed to NR and Paganism
determine from the actions of a few, that children are being led toward
something other than Chistain belief who are below the age of consent.
The groundswell of sentiment would be overwhelming. I further caution
that it would take only one such incident to light he fire, begun by
only one such minor, in the wrong place at the wrong time. So in this
matter, I must not only consider the past dertermination and
understanding of my own dear children, but also "the next door neighbor
kid who is simply impossible!!!!" :-0

As most of you know, I am a Christain, myself and there are those in
Nova Roma who would wish to rid this micro-nation of all who believe as
I do. That fact has been made quite clear in recent exchanges, however,
one of the advantages of having Christains here in Nova Roma is to
remind the Pagan believers among us that just as you have strong beliefs
in Paganism, the Christain movement at the moment is dominant in many of
the countries in which Nova Roma has citizens, and has the ability to
reach, through belief and certainty of religious right, into every
nuance of government and public sentiment. Should the Christain world
ever get it's hackles up over children in a Pagan Institution below the
age of consent, I believe that we will have a difficult time indeed,
which as a growing nation, we do not need.

Since, as I have said, I see no great advantage to be realized out of
the risk we take, I ask that we not place the stabilty of Nova Roma in
the hands of minors, who for the most part will not realize the extent
of what we do, and who by accident may well cause a conflaration that we
in NR cannot stop. Those who have spoken prior to this message know the
determination and limited view of a child who wants something of the
moment. I add my voice to that growing number who have raised two
chldren to adulthood, and who well understands the cunning, ability and
determiation of young people, and the necessity of guidance in areas
that they simply do not understand, just as I do not understand the
anger and frustration of my Christain neighbors and friends on many
occasions.

I thank all, most humbly, for your kind attention to my above
discussion. The sentiments expressed are mine alone and do not reflect
any other religious / political / or social concern aside from my own
personal beliefs.

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] RE: Consular Edictum: Resignation from Offices
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:43:58 -0300

QFabiusMaxmi@-------- wrote:
>
> << M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D. said:
>
> Recently Consul Vedius issued an edictum to remove any doubt about
> what happens when a civis resigns his citizenship and offices, and
> then takes advantage of our 9-day reconsideration period and returns.
> >>
> Q. Fabius Maximus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D
>
> Since the Tribunes or the Jr. Consul did not veto it, the Edictum stands. I
> hope the next Consul does not renew it.
Salve,

and voices that tried to ask for a tribunician intervention have been
censored on the main-list. Censorship is effective right now in NR.

Vediorum amandandorum est.

Manius Villius Limitanus

> My reasoning is simple. On the Internet, nine days is not a huge amount of
> time.
> And we should stay consistant with the lex. Consistancy is very important
> when it comes to credibility.
>
> Valete
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] RE: Consular Edictum: Resignation from Offices
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 11:33:28 -0500 (CDT)

> and voices that tried to ask for a tribunician intervention have been
> censored on the main-list. Censorship is effective right now in NR.
> Vediorum amandandorum est.
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus

Whose posts have been censored? Do you have any evidence of
an attempt to post on the main list that was censored?

Or is this just some sort of paranoid delusion?

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

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Subject:	[novaroma] Parental Rights
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:04:26 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Quirites,

There is one thing that we can NOT forget while we are
discussing citizenship for minors. A Parents RIGHT to
raise thier child as they see fit. This right is not
only recognized by most Macro nations, but also by our
constitution. I refer you to II D

"Gentes. Families and clans being the backbone of
Roman society, the prerogatives and responsibilities
of the family are of primary importance to Nova Roma.
Except where specifically dealt with in this
constitution and the law, each gens shall have the
right to determine its own course of action, and
parents shall have the undisputed right and
responsibility to see to the education and raising of
their children."

Quirites, this section of our constitution is the
reason that I support granting citizenship to the
children of citizens of our nation. If a parent wishes
to bring thier child up as a Roman, then we should aid
them in this worthy task.

Some, including myself, are worried about the legal
risks involved in granting citizenship to monors. In
the case of the children of citizens I think it's
worth taking the risk. look at the benifits we recive.
First we are protecting our families, and nothing is
more Roman than caring for your family. Also for the
long term think of the day when these children become
adults. A child raised as a Roman will be a great
asset to our nation 20 to 30 years from now.

Some have raised the posibility of problems where one
parent may object to the others desire to raise thier
child as a Roman. We OWE these parents our support.
Our Constitution allready states (II B 7)

The right to seek and receive assistance and advice
from the State in matters of religious and social
dispute occurring both within and outside the direct
jurisdiction of Nova Roma

Only the most barbaric of Macro Nations interfere with
a Christian parent's right to baptise thier child into
thier faith, or a Jewish Parent's right to have thier
child become a full member of thier faith through the
rite of Bar Mitzvah. I Consider it our duty to support
our Pagan Citizens right to raise thier children in
thier faith, and this is a cause that Nova Roma should
support, and can support by allowing our children to
become citizens.

I Fully support the sections of the proposed
admendment that bring our children into Nova Roma.

That being said I also recognize the right of non
citizens to raise thier children as they see fit, and
because of this I can NOT support any plan that does
not protect the rights of these parents to keep thier
children OUT of our nation.

I consider the granting of citizenship to minors to be
two seperate issuses, citizenship for our childen, and
citizenship for the children of non citizens. I think
it may be wise to seperate these.

I would suggest that the admendment be rewritten so
that it grants citizenship to the children of our
citizens (who desire it) and permits the children of
non citizens to join in a manner to be determined by
law. Then we can bring our children into Nova Roma
right away, The children of non citizens would be
banned UNTIL we pass a law that allowed them to join
us. This would allow us to pass a law that has ample
protections for us written into it without cluttering
up the Constitution with a lot of sections dealing
with this group of minors.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] RE: Consular Edictum: Resignation from Offices
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:01:54 -0400

Salve,

>>and voices that tried to ask for a tribunician intervention have been
censored on the main-list. Censorship is effective right now in NR.

Vediorum amandandorum est.

Manius Villius Limitanus>>

This is an absolute, outright LIE. I can assure *everyone* here that there
have been NO posts relating to this edictum rejected, questioned, delayed,
or in any other way interfered with by either myself or my scribe Pompeia.

I take the statement above as a VERY serious allegation against myself
personally, as well as my scribe. I hereby publicly demand that Limitanus
retract the statement and apologize. Failing that, I demand he supply
*proof* of his outrageous claim. An easy demand for me to make, as it would
be impossibe for him to prove a thing that *never* happened. But I would be
curous as to how far he is willing to carry this lie.

I don't care what kind of politics you want to play Limitanus, lying is
NEVER acceptable. It does, however, speak volumes about your character.

Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonis

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Subject:	[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem XII Kalendas Quinctilias (June 20th)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:18:19 +0100

Salvete omnes

This is one of the dies comitiales (C), when committees of citizens can vote
on political or criminal matters.

Today is the aniversary of the Temple of Summanus near the Circus Maximus,
probably on the west side of the Aventine. The temple was dedicated in 278
BCE, during the war with Pyrrhus, after a terracotta statue of Summanus,
which stood on the roof of the Capitoline temple of Iuppiter Optimus
Maximus, had been struck by lightning, probably at night. When the head
could not be found, the 'haruspices' (Etruscan soothsayers) were consulted
and said that it had been hurled into the Tiber, and it was soon recovered
at the exact spot they had indicated. A temple was then built to Summanus.
Summanus is an old deity of Etruscan or pre-Etruscan origin. Like Iuppiter,
it is associated with the thunderbolt and as such many claim that Summanus
is a dark, nocturnal aspect of Iuppiter.
Accoding to the surviving reports of the Fratres Arvales, two black wethers
(castrated male sheep)
are offered to Summanus (note that Iuppiter always receives white victims),
followed by cakes in the shape of wheels.

I also remind that Iunius is the month of Iuno, month of the young
(iuuenes).

Dii vos bene ament
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex

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Subject:	[novaroma] Contacting the Tribuni (was RE: Consular Edictum)
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:48:52 US/Central

Tribunus Plebis T Labienus Quiritibus salutem dicit

M' Villius scripsit:
> and voices that tried to ask for a tribunician intervention have been
> censored on the main-list.

Without making any judgement about the alleged censorship of the main list by
the curatrix sermonem, I would like to bring the following to the public's
attention.

First, I am the current moderator of the ComitiaPlebisTributa@-------- e-
mail list, and I receive all mail sent to it. The list is open to all
Novoromani who wish to join it.

Second, my e-mail address, along with that of my colleague, Q Sertorius, can be
found on the Nova Roma Web site's Current Magistrates page. The URI is:
http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/magistrates

If, at any time and for any reason, you feel that you need to contact a
tribunus plebis, you have at the very least these two certain recourses. I
check my e-mail many times every day, and do my level best to remain available
to all comers, in accord with the ancient traditions of the office. Despite
his recent personal difficulties, my colleague is likewise available and
responsive.

In short, if you wish to argue for a tribunician intercession, you have far
more options for doing so than simply posting to this list.

Valete

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] RE: the Consular Edictum
From:	QFabiusMaxmi@--------
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:52:56 EDT

In a message dated 6/20/2001 10:28:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
justicecmo@-------- writes:

> and voices that tried to ask for a tribunician intervention have been
> censored on the main-list. Censorship is effective right now in NR.
>
> Vediorum amandandorum est.
>
>

Q. Fabius Maximus Manio Villio Limitano SPD
I think that statement is a little much. I spoke out against the edictum and
I wasn't censored.
You have to stop these knee-jerk accusations. You need proof. Saying a
critical post did not appear in not censorship. We are on the internet. Did
you check the archieves to see if it is there?
Think before you post. We will all be happier. You also should aplogize to
Curator of the list. Saying she is biasied means that you don't understand
the law comes first in her eyes, and then her husband's manus. The laws of
the state always take precedent over the laws of the gentes and individuals.
It would do you well to remember this. I expect you to do the correct thing.
Quandoque bonus dormitat Homerus
Vale

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Parental Rights
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:19:42 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: L. Sicinius Drusus [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 1:04 PM
>
> I would suggest that the admendment be rewritten so
> that it grants citizenship to the children of our
> citizens (who desire it) and permits the children of
> non citizens to join in a manner to be determined by
> law. Then we can bring our children into Nova Roma
> right away, The children of non citizens would be
> banned UNTIL we pass a law that allowed them to join
> us. This would allow us to pass a law that has ample
> protections for us written into it without cluttering
> up the Constitution with a lot of sections dealing
> with this group of minors.

An excellent suggestion! Our Constitution should indeed be a document of
general principles, and not cluttered up with interminable cases and
exeptions to every rule. I'll make the appropriate change forthwith, and
post another draft.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Flags
From:	patrickius@--------
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:20:14 EDT

Ave!

I asked about availability just about a week ago and was told that a second
run of 100 flags had just been produced.

Vale optime! :->!

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Changing the Constitution II: Provincial Governors
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:37:44 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus [mailto:tjalens.h@--------]
> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 5:55 PM
>
> I think the proposal is good. But I would like to see the Governors also
> clearly given the right to "remove" officers "as they see fit", as in the
> current, unaltered Constitution. I feel that it is very important that the
> Constitution not only gives the Governors the right to appoint,
> but also to remove officers.

<snip>

> 4. To appoint officers "and to remove the same as they see fit," to whom
> authority may be delegated, subject to those restrictions and standards as
> the Senate shall deem appropriate.

Absolutely; good point. I'll include that in the final version.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] RE: Consular Edictum: Resignation from Offices
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 11:34:16 -0700

Michel Loos wrote:
>
> QFabiusMaxmi@-------- wrote:
> >
> > << M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D. said:
> >
> > Recently Consul Vedius issued an edictum to remove any doubt about
> > what happens when a civis resigns his citizenship and offices, and
> > then takes advantage of our 9-day reconsideration period and
> returns.
> > >>
> > Q. Fabius Maximus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D
> >
> > Since the Tribunes or the Jr. Consul did not veto it, the Edictum
> stands. I
> > hope the next Consul does not renew it.
> Salve,
>
> and voices that tried to ask for a tribunician intervention have been
> censored on the main-list. Censorship is effective right now in NR.
>
> Vediorum amandandorum est.
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus

If that was the case....Your post wouldnt even be here. Why dont you
just chill out!

Sulla

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Senate's sessions
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:39:39 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: gaius_quirinus@-------- [mailto:gaius_quirinus@--------]
> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 6:34 PM
>
> Sorry, so the Senat's sessions hoccur in chat or something lie this?

Thusfar, all of the official sessions of the Senate have been conducted
through email. The Senate rules do allow for sessions conducted in "real
time" (via chat, teleconferencing, or *gasp* face-to-face) but so far no
such meeting has taken place.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Incorporation and digital signatures
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:44:16 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lucius Sicinius Drusus [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 8:25 AM
>
> Then while we are tidying up the Constitution we need to revise
> section I C. which currently reads
> "This Constitution shall serve as the bylaws for Nova Roma, a legally
> incorporated entity in the state of New Hampshire, USA (hereafter
> referred to as "the corporation")....."

Oops! Yes, indeed, that needs to be corrected. Adding it to the list...

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] A few questions
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:54:04 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa [mailto:vipsaniusagrippa@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 10:09 PM
>
> 4) I recently saw an e-mail from Consul Germanicus about expanding the
> constitution concerning provincial appointees. The part about provincial
> sacerdotes was interesting. Would these be appointed solely by the
> propraetor or by the pontifices?

I've absolutely no idea :-)

I mentioned it as an example because one province that I know of
(Boreoccidentalis) already has appointed such a person (although such an
appointment must, perforce, be seen as unofficial, given the lack of
Constitutional authority for the Governor to do so). I'm sure the procedure
for such appointments will be the source of much, er, lively discussion when
it does come up.

I simply want to change our current Constitution's wording to make such
appointments possible; the specifics would have to be taken up by the Senate
(since they are in charge of organizing the provinces, although I am sure
the input of the Collegium Pontificum on such a matter would be solicited).

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	[novaroma] Changing the Constitution III: Incorporation Correction
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 15:03:53 -0400

Flavius Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.

As has been pointed out earlier today, the fact that we were forced through
macronational bureaucratic incompetence to reincorporate in the state of
Maine as opposed to New Hampshire has thrown our Constitution slightly out
of kilter. Therefore, I will be offering the following lex to amend our
Constitution at the next call of the Comitia Centuriata to vote:

-----

I. This lex is hereby enacted in order to acknowledge the change of Nova
Roma's state of incorporation from New Hampshire to Maine, and to alter the
Constitution accordingly.

II. The term "New Hampshire" in paragraph I.C. of the Constitution is hereby
changed to read "Maine".

-----

I post this here for the sake of public interest. I do not expect there to
be much debate about this one.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	[novaroma] Changing the Constitution I (ver. 3): Age of Citizenship
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 15:23:41 -0400

Flavius Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.

As promised, here's the third draft of the proposed legislation to allow
young persons to hold Citizenship in Nova Roma.

-----

I. This lex is hereby enacted to amend the Constitution of Nova Roma in such
manner as to extend the rights of Citizenship to persons who are not sui
juris in their domicile, and to undertake alterations to Constitutional
mechanisms and institutions appropriate to such a change.

II. Paragraph II.A. of the Constitution is hereby altered to read as
follows:

] A. Citizenship
] 1. Any person 18 years old or older may apply for Citizenship.
] 2. Any person under the age of 18 may apply for Citizenship under
] those procedures and restrictions that may be described by a
] lex passed by one of the Comitia. Unless and until such a lex
] is passed, no person under the age of 18 may apply for
] Citizenship, excepting as allowed in paragraph II.A.3. below.
] 3. Citizens may apply for Citizenship on behalf of their children
] or legal wards (as defined by relevant macronational law)
] under the age of 18.
] 4. Citizenship is open to anyone regardless of ethnic heritage,
] gender, religious affiliation, or sexual orientation.
] 5. Citizenship may be involuntarily revoked by those means that
] shall be established by law, or may be voluntarily relinquished
] by notification of the censors or by public statement before
] three or more witnesses.
] 6. Citizens under the age of 18 may have their Citizenship
] relinquished on their behalf by their parent or legal guardian
] (as defined by relevant macronational law) by notification of
] the censors or by public statement before three or more witnesses.

III. Paragraph II.B. of the Constitution is hereby altered to read as
follows:

] B. The following rights of the Citizens who have reached the age of
] 18 shall be guaranteed, but this enumeration shall not be taken
] to exclude other rights that citizens may possess:

IV. Paragraph II.D.3. of the Constitution is hereby altered to read as
follows:

] 3. Each gens shall, through whatever means it may determine
] appropriate, have a paterfamilias (fem. materfamilias) who
] shall act as the leader of the gens and speak for it when
] necessary. The holder of this position must be registered
] as such with the censors. The paterfamilias may, at his or
] her discretion, expel members of their gens, or accept new
] members into it.
] a. The paterfamilias may, at his discretion, exercise the
] rights ennumerated in paragraph II.B. of this Constitution
] on behalf of Citizens in their gens under the age of 18,
] with the exception of the right to vote (paragraph II.B.3.)
] and the right to join the Ordo Equester (paragraph II.B.8.).
] b. No one under the age of 18 may become paterfamilias of a
] gens.

-----

This version differs from version 2 in allowing for the _possibility_ of
children of non-Citizens to be allowed to apply for Citizenship, but only
after a lex is passed defining what sort of restrictions, safeguards, etc.
must be in place to allow it. (It specifically states "a lex passed by one
of the Comitia", so that an enterprising magistrate couldn't just issue an
edict.) Citizens could apply for citizenship for their kids without such
restrictions.

Thus, it doesn't open the door to children of non-Cives, but it doesn't
brick it up, either.

Hopefully this will be enough for those sayers of doom who seem to think
hordes of fundamentalists are out there waiting to infiltrate their children
into our ranks so they can lay lawsuits against us. :-)

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] RE: Consular Edictum: Resignation from Offices
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 19:55:36 -0000

Salvete Limitanus et. Alii:

Just for the record, I have never rejected anyone's post from the mainlist,
without due explanation as to why, and without informing in detail the
Curatrix Sermonen.

And when Priscilla rejects or moderates a list contributor, I get a copy of
the letter she sends to the individual in question. Such measures are taken
only when there are repeated offences to existing list guidelines.

I am not going to reswear an oath to the effect that I am doing my assigned
duty as Scriba Curatrix honestly and fairly. I don't think you'd believe me
anyway, Limitane, even if I stood upon a stack of Bibles or Sybilline Books.
That is not important. You have attacked my honesty in public with this
inaccurate and hurtful statement.

And I am not going to ask you for proof, because I know that no such proof
exists, and this being the case, you are slandering.

Low blow, Limitane.

Pompeia Cornelia
Scriba Curatrix Sermonen
Propraetrix Canada Orientalis
(who is *sure* to break her oath of office so she can spite people by
monkeying with posts to the list (sarcasm))

ichel Loos <loos@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] RE: Consular Edictum: Resignation from Offices
>Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:43:58 -0300
>
>>
>and voices that tried to ask for a tribunician intervention have been
>censored on the main-list. Censorship is effective right now in NR.
>
>
>Vediorum amandandorum est.
>
>Manius Villius Limitanus
>
>
>
>
> > My reasoning is simple. On the Internet, nine days is not a huge amount
>of
> > time.
> > And we should stay consistant with the lex. Consistancy is very
>important
> > when it comes to credibility.
> >
> > Valete
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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Subject:	[novaroma] Changing the Constitution IV: Tribunes
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:04:17 -0400

Flavius Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.

Just for those who thought the list was getting a little too quiet <grin> I
present a draft of a Constitutional amendment to bring the way our Tribunes
operate more in line with Roma Antiqua. I should point out that this has
been done with much input and discussion with our good Tribune Titus
Labienus Fortunatus.

The Executive Summary of the proposed changes:

* Increase the number of Tribunes from two to six.
* Allow Tribunes to issue intercessio individually.
* Intercessio may be issued when the spirit and/or letter of the law is
violated, not just the Constitution.
* Intercessio may be nullified by another Tribune; such nullification
cannot itself be nullified.
* The exact mechanisms for intercessio have to be enacted by law.
* Add the power to administer the law (i.e., cases in the Comitia Plebis).
* Add the power to appoint scribes.
* Remove the power to call the Senate to order.

-----

I. This lex is hereby enacted to bring the institution of the Tribunate as
it is realized in Nova Roma closer to that of Roma Antiqua, and to alter the
Constitution accordingly.

II. Paragraph IV.A.7. of the Constitution is hereby altered to read as
follows:

] 7. Tribuni Plebis (Tribune of the Plebs). Six tribunes of the
] plebs shall be elected by the comitia plebis tributa to
] serve a term lasting one year. They must all be of the
] plebeian order, and shall have the following honors,
] powers, and obligations:
] a. To pronounce intercessio against the actions of any other
] magistrate (with the exception of the dictator and the
] interrex), Senatus consulta, and leges passed by the
] comitia when they feel that the spirit and/ or letter of
] this Constitution or legally-enacted edicta, Senatus
] Consulta, or leges are being violated thereby;
] 1. A pronouncement of intercessio may be nullified by
] another Tribune, leaving the original action (which
] had been subject to intercessio) unchanged.
] 2. Nullification of a tribunicial intercessio is not
] itself subject to intercessio or nullification.
] 3. Intercessio and its nullification shall be issued and
] function according to procedures described by law.
] b. To be immune from intercessio pronounced by other
] magistrates (other than nullification as described in
] paragraph IV.A.7.a. above);
] c. To be privy to the debates of the Senate, and keep the
] citizens informed as to the content and progress thereof;
] d. To call the comitia plebis tributa to order;
] e. To administer the law;
] f. To appoint scribae (clerks) to assist with administrative
] and other tasks, as he shall see fit.

III. Any leges, magisterial edicta, or other official documents which refer
to there being only two Tribunes are hereby amended to include the increased
number.

-----

I envision this lex being voted on alongside an "enabling lex" which would
describe the exact procedures for issuing intercessio and nullification
(which would spell out details such as where such an intercessio has to be
posted, how long after its issued it can be nullified, etc.). Such details
are the stuff of leges, and we should try to keep such minutae out of the
Constitution itself.

As always, comments are always welcome.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Xtreme Xtians
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:25:46 -0000

Salvete:
It is not just a matter of fundamentalist Christians. There are several
fundamentalist Muslims, orthodox Jews, et al. Fundamentalist is not a term
exclusive to hyperreligious Christians.

Which makes the situation even more precarious for NR with respect to NR's
dealings with minors of these folks.

Bene vale,
Pompeia

>From: ksterne@--------
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: [novaroma] Xtreme Xtians
>Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:30:57 -0000
>
> >>Frankly, I find the cautious talking about a possible lawsuit from
>extreme christians a bit silly<<
>
>Salve Sexte Apolloni,
>
>You need to vist us here in Tennessee, USA and you would not see the
>possibility as so remote. ;-) Some of these people are completely
>over the edge.
>
>Vale,
>Gaius Popillius Laenas
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Changing the Constitution IV: Tribunes
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:26:05 -0000

Salvete Esteemed Consul et Tribuni Plebi,

An excellent fine tuning of the Constitution IMO.

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Minors
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:35:47 -0400

Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: jmath669642reng@-------- [mailto:jmath669642reng@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 11:09 AM
>
> I tend to agree with my Senatorial Colleague, Quintus Fabius Maximus in
> regard to the Minor question. Firstly, for the amount of security, and
> concern we are expending in this matter, I am not at all sure what
> advantage the micronation will reap from this action except a certain
> satisfaction on the part of the parents, and a fleeting satisfacton on
> the part of a few minors who may understand what we are doing and
> risking for them.

I must, with respect, disagree wholeheartedly.

Given the central importance of family, not only in Roma Antiqua but also
Nova Roma, it seems to me bizarre to ban children from our society until
they have spent some arbitrary number of years in this world.

The move to include children of Cives as Citizens themselves is more than an
attempt to ellicit a "certain satisfaction" of their parents, or a "fleeting
satisfaction" on the childrens' part. Our grand experiment to recreate the
Roman Republic currently suffers severely from the fact that none of us--
not a single one-- have been raised as Romans. To us, by definition,
Romanitas is something that we must consciously adopt, because we have not
had the opportunity to be born to it. The Virtues are concepts that must be
learned through study, rather than through example and emulation. In short,
we will perforce always be lacking because we can only go so far in our
internalization of what it is to _be_ Roman. If we exclude our children from
our society, we condemn them to repeating the same experience.

Now, I am not saying that Citizenship in Nova Roma somehow automatically
brings one into a purely Roman world, where Romanitas is at every hand, the
Mos Maiorum is taken for granted, and the Roman Virtues are simply a given.
We all know such is not the case, and won't be for generations to come.

But we won't _have_ those generations unless we start now. By bringing in
our children, we give them at least more of a chance than we had to grow up
as Romans. With Citizenship comes a certain pride, and it is that pride in
being a Nova Roman that cannot be replaced by any amount of mere study.

We are far from perfect as Romans, nor are we exemplars of Romanitas. If we
embrace our children, they may not become so either, but they will be a
little closer. And so will their children. And their children. And so on.

This is not an idea merely for the moment, for the short-sighted
satisfaction of seeing my daughter wearing a stola. It is the sowing of the
seeds of a dozen generations to come. If we stay in the rutt of exclusion
until 18, our children-- fine and wonderful people and contributing and
eager Cives though they may be-- will still be that much farther away from
Romanitas than they could be.

Let us begin the work of the generations today.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Changing the Constitution I (ver. 2): Age of Citizenship
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:39:50 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: bcatfd@-------- [mailto:bcatfd@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 12:27 AM
>
> There is no *compelling* reason to allow
> minor children of non-citizens to join, however, and I cannot endorse
> this proposal as long as that is allowed.

To turn it around, I see no *compelling* reason to shut the door forever to
such persons. Who knows what sorts of verification technologies will be
available even next year? The new draft of the amendment allows for the
possibility of such in the future, but specifically does not allow it unless
a lex is passed spelling out the conditions. It doesn't open the door, but
it doesn't brick it up, either.

Personally, I think this is the most sensible solution.

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Minors as Citizens (addendum)
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:43:58 -0700 (PDT)

Salve, cara Po.

--- Pompeia Cornelia <scriba_forum@--------> wrote:
> Salve Gnaeus Salix Astur:
>
> Yes, those would most likely be the bloodsuckers in question :)
>
> Well amice, if they are bloodsuckers why then don't they call them
> notorietos?
>
> Just wonderin' (grin)

Maybe they are not called "notorietos" because that doesn't mean
anything in Spanish ;-).

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Minors as Citizens (addendum)
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 21:42:04 -0000

Salve My Dear Austur:

You surely do have a point there! I was trying to *pun* with the use of the
English words, Notorious, or Notoriety, the state of being notorious...

Obviously it didn't work, did it (big grin) :)!!

alas.........

I'll never make a living as a comedienne.

Pompeia

>From: Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Minors as Citizens (addendum)
>Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:43:58 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Salve, cara Po.
>
>--- Pompeia Cornelia <scriba_forum@--------> wrote:
> > Salve Gnaeus Salix Astur:
> >
> > Yes, those would most likely be the bloodsuckers in question :)
> >
> > Well amice, if they are bloodsuckers why then don't they call them
> > notorietos?
> >
> > Just wonderin' (grin)
>
>Maybe they are not called "notorietos" because that doesn't mean
>anything in Spanish ;-).
>
>
>
>=====
>Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
>Gnaeus Salix Astur.
>Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
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Subject:	[novaroma] Censored Post
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:43:37 -0300

Salve,

as I have been asked too I attach the post I sended Monday and that
never
made it to the list.
Being on Moderated Status through the sole will of the Curatrix for
facts
I totally disgree that they merit such status,
when one of my post critizising here husband does not reach the list
I jumped to the conclusion that I had been censored.

It never crossed my mind that this censorship could have been exerced by
Priscillia Cornelia. And I am very sorry that my mail offended you.

Vale,

Vediorum amandandorum est.

Manius Villius Limitanus.
----------

>From - Wed Jun 20 18:41:12 2001
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Message-ID: <3B2E2FEA.875CE1CC@-------->
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 13:44:26 -0300
From: Michel Loos <loos@-------->
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19pre17 i686)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Magistrate Resignations
References: <9gl223+7psv@-------->
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

ksterne@-------- wrote:
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> I have to say I disagree with our esteement Consul and agree with
> Gnaeus Salix on the matter of Magistrate resignations.
>
> I agree that resignation of an office is a serious matter and that
> one SHOULD do his or her deep thinking before making an announcement
> of resignation. But, I also know that people being people make
> mistakes. Decisions will be made in the heat of emotions that will
> later be regretted. Magistrates, although held to a higher standard,
> are not immune. We have all seen such in the past.
>
> I do not believe a nine day cooling off period is excessive. We
> already have a lex regarding citizenship resignation and we have
> precedent for resumption of office if the resignee was a Magistrate.
> IMO we do not need an edict or a lex on this issue. Past practice
> and tradition can govern, and we can avoid additional elections.
>
> With all respect.
>
> Valete,
> Gaius Popillius Laenas

Salvete,

I hate me too posts, but I think I must post one here:
I totally support the opinion of Gaius Popillius Laenas.

Tradition is the way Rome was mostly governed not some magistrates
edicts.

In ancient Rome a consul edicting such an edict (against the tradition)
would
probably have been prosecuted by one of the tribunes if he had insisted.

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censored Post
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:56:45 -0700

Well I think it might be your email address...becuase you are subscribed
up to the the following list and it shows this for your stats:

NovaromaVizantia

micloos loos@--------
Soft Bounce 1266 0 N/A Edit
___

Nova Roma Laws

loos@--------
Soft Bounce 1266 0 N/A Edit
___

So, I think its your email address. Not the Prscilla Vedia. I think
you need a new internet Service Provider.

Also, the name of Priscilla Vedia's scribe is Pompeia Cornelia.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Michel Loos wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> as I have been asked too I attach the post I sended Monday and that
> never
> made it to the list.
> Being on Moderated Status through the sole will of the Curatrix for
> facts
> I totally disgree that they merit such status,
> when one of my post critizising here husband does not reach the list
> I jumped to the conclusion that I had been censored.
>
> It never crossed my mind that this censorship could have been exerced
> by
> Priscillia Cornelia. And I am very sorry that my mail offended you.
>
> Vale,
>
> Vediorum amandandorum est.
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus.
> ----------
>
> >From - Wed Jun 20 18:41:12 2001
> X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
> X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
> Message-ID: <3B2E2FEA.875CE1CC@-------->
> Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 13:44:26 -0300
> From: Michel Loos <loos@-------->
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19pre17 i686)
> X-Accept-Language: en
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Magistrate Resignations
> References: <9gl223+7psv@-------->
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> ksterne@-------- wrote:
> >
> > Salvete Omnes,
> >
> > I have to say I disagree with our esteement Consul and agree with
> > Gnaeus Salix on the matter of Magistrate resignations.
> >
> > I agree that resignation of an office is a serious matter and that
> > one SHOULD do his or her deep thinking before making an announcement
> > of resignation. But, I also know that people being people make
> > mistakes. Decisions will be made in the heat of emotions that will
> > later be regretted. Magistrates, although held to a higher
> standard,
> > are not immune. We have all seen such in the past.
> >
> > I do not believe a nine day cooling off period is excessive. We
> > already have a lex regarding citizenship resignation and we have
> > precedent for resumption of office if the resignee was a Magistrate.
> > IMO we do not need an edict or a lex on this issue. Past practice
> > and tradition can govern, and we can avoid additional elections.
> >
> > With all respect.
> >
> > Valete,
> > Gaius Popillius Laenas
>
> Salvete,
>
> I hate me too posts, but I think I must post one here:
> I totally support the opinion of Gaius Popillius Laenas.
>
> Tradition is the way Rome was mostly governed not some magistrates
> edicts.
>
> In ancient Rome a consul edicting such an edict (against the
> tradition)
> would
> probably have been prosecuted by one of the tribunes if he had
> insisted.
>
> Vale,
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> [www.newaydirect.com]
>
>
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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Censored Post
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 17:59:30 -0400

Salve,

The post attached by Limitanus *never* apeared in the pending file of the
Main List, as can be attested to by Pompeia. Had it appeared, it, too,
would have been approved.

Limitanus mentions he is on moderated status. This is true. While I will
not go into detail, I will simply say that he was offered the choice to
modify a certain behavior or remain moderated. He informed e he had no
intention of changing said behavior, and therefore he was informed that he
would remain moderated. he was also informed that *only* posts that
repeated said behavior would be returned to him. To date, he has made no
attempts to post until today and the post did not violate that behavior.
therefore, despite it being an outright lie, it went through.

As all can see, I do not censor posts based on whether I happen to like
their comments. If that were the case not a one of you would have seen
Limitanus' lie at all, not to mention that I would be more than pleased to
remove his obnoxious little tag line before sending through his posts. But
I will not do that. He has the right to free speech here, even if he
chooses to waste the freedom on lies and obnoxious slams that are completely
without merit.

Now that I have cleared up that there *never* was a rejected post I await
the apology *I* am owed by Limitanus, as he already saw fit to apologize to
my scriba. I would hate to think he lacks the dignitas to make amends when
he is in error. We have seen *one* side to his character today, let us hope
we will now see the other side as he makes right what he set wrong.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonis

-----Original Message-----
From: loos [mailto:loos]On Behalf Of Michel Loos
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 5:44 PM
To: Pompeia Cornelia; Marcus Octavius Germanicus;
novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Censored Post

Salve,

as I have been asked too I attach the post I sended Monday and that
never
made it to the list.
Being on Moderated Status through the sole will of the Curatrix for
facts
I totally disgree that they merit such status,
when one of my post critizising here husband does not reach the list
I jumped to the conclusion that I had been censored.

It never crossed my mind that this censorship could have been exerced by
Priscillia Cornelia. And I am very sorry that my mail offended you.

Vale,

Vediorum amandandorum est.

Manius Villius Limitanus.
----------

>From - Wed Jun 20 18:41:12 2001
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Message-ID: <3B2E2FEA.875CE1CC@-------->
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 13:44:26 -0300
From: Michel Loos <loos@-------->
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19pre17 i686)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Magistrate Resignations
References: <9gl223+7psv@-------->
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

ksterne@-------- wrote:
>
> Salvete Omnes,
>
> I have to say I disagree with our esteement Consul and agree with
> Gnaeus Salix on the matter of Magistrate resignations.
>
> I agree that resignation of an office is a serious matter and that
> one SHOULD do his or her deep thinking before making an announcement
> of resignation. But, I also know that people being people make
> mistakes. Decisions will be made in the heat of emotions that will
> later be regretted. Magistrates, although held to a higher standard,
> are not immune. We have all seen such in the past.
>
> I do not believe a nine day cooling off period is excessive. We
> already have a lex regarding citizenship resignation and we have
> precedent for resumption of office if the resignee was a Magistrate.
> IMO we do not need an edict or a lex on this issue. Past practice
> and tradition can govern, and we can avoid additional elections.
>
> With all respect.
>
> Valete,
> Gaius Popillius Laenas

Salvete,

I hate me too posts, but I think I must post one here:
I totally support the opinion of Gaius Popillius Laenas.

Tradition is the way Rome was mostly governed not some magistrates
edicts.

In ancient Rome a consul edicting such an edict (against the tradition)
would
probably have been prosecuted by one of the tribunes if he had insisted.

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Changing the Constitution IV: Tribunes
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 15:13:05 -0700 (PDT)

Gn. Salix Astur Consuli F. Vedio Germanico Novoromanisque S.P.D.

Avete omnes; et ave, consul Germanice.

--- Flavius Vedius Germanicus <germanicus@--------> wrote:
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus novaromanis S.P.D.
>
> Just for those who thought the list was getting a little too quiet
> <grin> I
> present a draft of a Constitutional amendment to bring the way our
> Tribunes
> operate more in line with Roma Antiqua. I should point out that this
> has
> been done with much input and discussion with our good Tribune Titus
> Labienus Fortunatus.

An objective I fully support, even more considering the level of the
apportations usually presented by T. Labienus Fortunatus.

I would like to add a few comments, if you don't mind.

> The Executive Summary of the proposed changes:
>
> * Increase the number of Tribunes from two to six.

I see your point. In the late Republic, the number of tribuni was
raised progressively, until it reached ten. However, I would like to
stick to the ancient Republican number of two, because having six
tribuni with equal vetoing power over the decisions of the other
tribuni would reduce the actual possibilty of any tribunician action
nearly to none.

> * Allow Tribunes to issue intercessio individually.

I do like this one. It is historically more correct, and also more
coherent with way the other magistratures work.

> * Intercessio may be issued when the spirit and/or letter of the law
> is
> violated, not just the Constitution.

Also more historically correct, and also more coherent. I really like
these changes! ;-). I would like to see a reference to the rights and
interests of the Plebians, however.

> * Intercessio may be nullified by another Tribune; such
> nullification
> cannot itself be nullified.

This would be fine with two tribuni, but I think it will be impractical
with six tribuni. No tribunician veto will possibly be held.

> * The exact mechanisms for intercessio have to be enacted by law.
> * Add the power to administer the law (i.e., cases in the Comitia
> Plebis).
> * Add the power to appoint scribes.

Perfect.

> * Remove the power to call the Senate to order.

What's the point of this one? Wasn't the other option more historically
correct and proper?

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Minors as Citizens (addendum)
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Wed, 20 Jun 2001 15:18:57 -0700 (PDT)

Salve, cara Po.

--- Pompeia Cornelia <scriba_forum@--------> wrote:
> Salve My Dear Austur:
>
> You surely do have a point there! I was trying to *pun* with the use
> of the
> English words, Notorious, or Notoriety, the state of being
> notorious...
>
> Obviously it didn't work, did it (big grin) :)!!

I more or less guessed you were trying to connect it with notorious.

> alas.........
>
> I'll never make a living as a comedienne.
>
> Pompeia

You should keep trying ;-).

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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