Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Fwd: [NovaromaVizantia] Mainlist "Censorship"
From:	loos@--------
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 00:22:23 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Pompeia Cornelia" <trog99@h...> wrote:
> Salvete Civites Nova Roma:
>
> I just responded to the Vizantia List regarding Limitanus' continued
> accusations of Censorship by Curatrix Sermonen Priscilla Vedia
Serena.
> Although I do not feel at liberty to crosspost Limitanus' Vizantia
> literature here, I am completely comfortable in crossposting my
response.
>
> I grow very weary of the *guilty until proven destined for
deification*
> policy of Limitanus. I am very weary of the contined harassment of
> Limitanus against Vedia.
>
> Could we please stop this, Limitanus? Praetors et Censors, does
this lady
> have to put up with this string of harassment and maltreatment for
the
> remainder of her term?
>
> My comments to Vizantia below.
>
> Valete,
> Pompeia Cornelia
> Scriba Curatrix Sermonen,
> Propraetrix pro tem Canada Orientalis
> NOVA ROMA
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Pompeia Cornelia" <trog99@-------->
> >Repl--------: NovaromaVizantia@--------
> >To: Novaromavizantia@--------
> >Subject: [NovaromaVizantia] Mainlist "Censorship"
> >Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 13:58:51 -0400
> >
> >Salvete Limitanus et Populus Nova Roma Vizantia:
> >
> >You still do not present with any undisputed truth that Curatrix
Priscilla
> >Vedia is censoring your posts, due to personal political agreement
on her
> >part.
> >
> >The post which did not appear in the forum earlier in the week was
not
> >received as a pending message by myself, either. It was *not*
censored.
> >Priscilla and myself cannot send to the list what we do not
receive. Why
> >we
> >didn't receive it (both of us) I do not know, but it was not the
fault of
> >us. You are having email trouble, we did not receive your post. I
am not
> >a
> >liar. Somewhere, something went wrong, but this in no way proves
that
> >Priscilla Vedia is manipulating the mainlist mail, to serve her own
whims.
> >
> >You forwarded a series of posts to this list a little while ago,
today. In
> >one of these posts you state that you are not convinced as to her
> >innocence
> >as yet, and therefore will abstain from an apology until you are so
> >"convinced". This, Limitane,is the most bogus sense of justice I
have ever
> >heard of.
> >
> >What you are in effect saying, is that Vedia is guilty until proven
> >completely innocent. And you are not even entertaining the concept
of
> >"reasonable doubt".
> >
> >Regarding yesterday's post to the forum, your post was not allowed,
not
> >because Vedia is playing games with you, but because your tag line
calls
> >for
> >inciting the removal, impeachment, demise, whatever of the Consul
of Nova
> >Roma. I don't care if the consul is married to Vedia or if he's
married to
> >Nicole Kidman, this type of literature is clearly against list
guidelines.

Salve,

do you really mean that the mainlist guidelines are against the
expression of democratic opposition ? All the politics in a democracy
turn around the fact to remove the ones you think are doing bad to
your nation. Censuring mail opposing the in cahrge head of the state
is the purest form of totalitarian censure. And this one you testified
yourself.

I was probably wrong for the post that did not reach you,
since you say so I believe you and think the fault comes from yahoo.

But the two censured posts you just cited made me address a request to
the tribunes in order to defend democracy in our nation.

> >They are in the files section of the mainlist Yahoo page. Read
them,
> >please.
> >

There is no files section on the mainlist Yahoo page, I read the
guidelines of Yahoo files and of course nothing like that applies.

> >So, be sure to tell Nova Roma Vizantia *all* of the truth, and not
just
> >what you want them to hear.
> >
> >I am sorry that Vizantia community is being dragged into this
Kangaroo
> >Court
> >of Limitanus' relentless harassment of Priscilla Vedia Serena over,
> >basically "one" post which didn't appear.
> >

Not quite from the 2 censored posts I forwarded to Vizantia, one was
about the Intercessio discussion. I have no more concerns about the
post that did not appear. I have concerns about the 2 censored posts
where I got an answer from the list censor.

I have concerns when in the spirit of the list censor, the Parti
Quebequois, the Sinn Fein and others should be censored.

I have concerns when I see that crime apology (e.g. slavery) is
allowed on this list while asking for democratic removal of 2
magistrates is censored.

I have concerns when not only, one vernacular language is preferred
over all others, but also it is forbidden to write in latin without
translation.

> >Rather than question the Curatrix privately about why the post was
omitted,
> >he has chosen to accuse her publically, and moreover, condemn her
unless he
> >is completely convinced of her innocence.
> >

Where did I condemn her ? I just said she censored posts opposing her
and her husband, if this was not true 2 days ago, you know that it is
the case since then, as I posted the posts and the liost censors
replies to Vizantia and to the tribunes.

> >This, in my estimation is a very narly way to treat another person.
> >
> >You are quick to accuse Vedia of not liking you and mistreating
you...well
> >frankly, I do not like the callous and unfair manner in which you
are
> >treating her. You are putting this lady through the wringer over
*one
> >post*......??? *Who* is treating *whom* unfairly now?
> >

No Pompeia, not for one post, it started with a discussion about
democracy, continued with the freedom of speech issue, went on with
the secession issue and now with the freedom of democratic speach
against a magistrate in charge. And this was not only with me, I am
certainly not accusing her of treating _me_ unfairly,
but she governs this list in order to shut down all opposition, and as
you
know this is the first step to totalitarism.

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus.

> >Bene valete,
> >Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
> >Scriba Curatrix Sermonen
> >Propraetrix pro tem Canada Orientalis
> >NOVA ROMA
> >
> >
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
http://www.hotmail.com.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
_________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
http://www.hotmail.com.

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] censorship
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Sun, 24 Jun 2001 21:11:57 -0400

Salve Pompeia,

First of all.........welcome aboard. We are glad you have joined us and I
am sure you will find many interesting and relevant topics here on the Main
List as you get to know us. Feel free to start a discussion on your
favorite Roman topics, you are sure to find many who will jump right in and
chat away with you!

As for the censorship issue, it is far more than a personal dispute. A
citizen and member of this List has charged that a very serious wrong is
being committed. That deserves to be addressed and the truth needs to be
known. Our members deserve no less, and the accused certainly need to speak
out and let the truth be known.

You will find that, occasionally, personal disputes do erupt here. More
often than not they get taken to private e-mail by the parties involved, but
sometimes such a case will linger here. Your best bet will be (and this is
true across the board here) to simply delete or ignore what does not suit
you. E-mail can be hard to read emotions in, so take no offense....I do not
mean that in a flip or sarcastic manner. :)

I find the motto of 'take what you want and leave the rest" works very well
for this List. Of course, as Curatrix I have no such leisure, but that's
okay too........despite the downsides I enjoy my job. :)

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonis

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Subject:	[novaroma] Moderation vs. Censorship
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Sun, 24 Jun 2001 21:18:50 -0400

Salve,

Given some of the misinformation being put forth by Limitanus, I feel it is
prudent to clarify a term or two. Please note these are not dictionary
definitions but rather an explanation of how these terms apply to this List.

Moderation:
- a member may be placed on moderated status due to their actions on this
List. Typically, an action that would result in moderated status might
either be disruptive, uncivil, a threat to our nation (calls for riots,
etc), flames of other people, etc.
- all List members are issued warnings before being placed on moderated
status. I firmly believe in giving people a chance to recognize and modify
offensive behavior before taking further action. Please note that in
extreme cases (porn spamming, for example) no such warning is typically
given.
- moderated status is generally enforced for a period of two weeks per
offending post. In some cases, however, when a List member refuses to
comply with a request to modify their behavior, moderated status can and
will be extended to an indefinite period.
- all moderated members are such due to their own actions. Their
subsequent posts are monitored for repeated offensive behavior, NOTHING
else. For example, if Citizen X was placed on moderated status for using
the sig line "Citizen Y is a moron", any future posts that contained the
same (or equally rude) sig lines would be returned and not approved until
the offensive passage is removed.
- NO ONE has ever been moderated on my watch due to my personal feelings.
As several folks here can attest, I issue warnings and take further action
across the board. My own husband has been warned. I take great pride in
treating all List members equally and fairly.

Censorship:
- would refer to rejecting, altering or refusing to publish posts from
people I do not like or whose positions I do not agree with.

At the risk of sounding too light-hearted about what *is* a serious
discussion, if I stooped to censorship of those who irritated me there would
be days when none but the crickets would be heard here. ;) Seriously, even
the most cursory of readings of our archives will show that criticism of
myself, my husband, our ideas, etc has taken place and has never been
censored. Think about it, if I were to censor those whose ideas annoy
me.......would we be *having* this discussion or would Limitanus' posts be
disappearing into cyber-space never to be seen again? ;)

Hopefully the above has cleared some things up for people. I work very
hard, as does my wonderful scribe Pompeia, to maintain this List. It is not
an easy job, and to be accused of such a serious and heinous activity as
censorship is unacceptable. Our decisions may not always sit well with
everyone.....who here *enjoys* being told to "tone it down" after
all?.....but we treat every post and every poster equally. Even Limitanus.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonis

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: censorship
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 01:48:06 -0000

Salvete Quirites,

In the past month I have made many posts that were cricital of some
policies of the Senior Consul. This includes Formosanus' postion as
Aedile, The Admendment on Minor Citizens, and the Admendment on the
Tribunes.

Every one of my posts appeared on this list, The entire post not a
line was missing. During this time period I saw many other posts that
were cricital of the Senior Consul's policies along with posts
expressing displeasures with other areas of our government.

If there is any "Censorship" it certainly is NOT based on being
cricital of Nova Roma's government. More than likely the problem is
HOW something was expressed, not WHAT was expressed. In other words
regular modaration.

Manius Villius, If you think the Curatrix Sermonis is treating you
unfairly, then contact the Praetors about this instead of using this
list and others to launch a smear campaign. Then IF there is any
substance to your charges (which I doubt), the Praetors can began
Impeachment procedings.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Bouncing and what i did to cure it (medium long)
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Sun, 24 Jun 2001 22:03:14 EDT

Salvete,
I am involved in several yahoo e-mail lists. I am even a
moderater/owner of the local SCA chapters list. Bounce was so bad on that
list that for two days I had almost 100 percent bounce of my out posts and
posts coming to my mail box. This is lightly know as a "Hard" bounce!
For reasons I don't know perhaps AOL is the root cause for such a lack
of service. I tried using an alternative e-mail address with an AOL name I
sometimes use and that was no better. My shire was having its own problems
with a flame war other wise I would not have know I was missing mail. On the
NR list there have been complete threads that I never received in the last
week. I do get a lot of mail any given day and perhaps that is the reason
for the bounce.
The next step was to see what happens when I made use of the free
e-mail address from Yahoo. My own group has resolved its problem and it
doesn't have the volume but as I confirm posts on the main site to my yahoo
address I am now receiving 100 percents of my SCA mail.
It pays to check your yahoo account. The Yahoo e-mail has allowed me
to do my job and plus I learned how to do it better. if I still am getting
too much bounce on this list I will move it there as well.
I am not at all computer savvy person I try to solve my own problems
when I can.

Valete
Prima Anncinna Drusila

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Clothing class offered
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Sun, 24 Jun 2001 22:27:00 EDT

Salvete,
My local shire in Fort Wayne, Indiana is having a sewing gathers every
Sunday the month of July. I am going to offer a class about Roman costuming
on one of the Sundays. Many have adopted such garb as a means to handle the
heat and humdity of Pennsic/ summer events.
If anyone is within comfortable driving distance and would like to
come Please e-mail me off the list. I will get directions to you. I do not
know which Sunday it will be as I must wait for my work schedule. As soon as
I know there will be at least a weeks notice for everyone.

Valete
P. A. Drusila

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Fwd: [NovaromaVizantia] Mainlist "Censorship"
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Sun, 24 Jun 2001 22:55:51 -0400

Salve,

>>Censuring mail opposing the in cahrge head of the state is the purest form
of totalitarian censure. And this one you testified yourself.>>

Your mail is not being censored. As per the post you were sent on 6/22/01
you are moderated. See my other post for a discussion of the difference.

>>I was probably wrong for the post that did not reach you, since you say so
I believe you and think the fault comes from yahoo.>>

You are wrong about that. I find it very telling that you still refuse to
apologize to *me* about your false accusation.

>>But the two censured posts you just cited made me address a request to the
tribunes in order to defend democracy in our nation.>>

The Tribunes were CC'd on the post of 6/22/01. In point of fact I consulted
with Tribune Fortunatus as well as my scribe before any action was taken.

>>There is no files section on the mainlist Yahoo page, I read the
guidelines of Yahoo files and of course nothing like that applies.>>

There most *definitely* are List policies in the Files section of our List
website. Those policies, which I strongly suggest you re-read, most
definitely state that personal attacks are unacceptable and off-topic. To
reach the files go to www.yahoogroups.com, click on "files" in the left
column and once in the files section look for "welcome.txt". That ought to
be clear enough for you to locate and confirm their existence. ::rolling
eyes::

>>Not quite from the 2 censored posts I forwarded to Vizantia, one was about
the Intercessio discussion.>>

The moderated posts contained an offensive signature line. The post on
6/22/01 notifying you of your status clearly explained that no posts
containing that sign line would be approved. When you ignored that and
tried to post them anyway, the posts were returned, as explained. I will
note, since you choose not to, that once the offending line was removed both
posts went through immediately and with not so much as a punctuation mark
altered.

>>I have no more concerns about the post that did not appear. I have
concerns about the 2 censored posts where I got an answer from the list
censor.>>

I refer you, again, to the post you were sent on 6/22/01 explaining your
status. You can call me a 'censor' all you like, but one would hope that
sooner or later you would acknowledge that your own actions led to your
being placed on moderated status, not my personal feelings for you.

>>I have concerns when in the spirit of the list censor, the Parti
Quebequois, the Sinn Fein and others should be censored.>>

No one on this List is being censored. You have demonstrated an inability
to conduct yourself in an appropriate manner. To equate that with some form
of political oppression is ludicrous.

>>I have concerns when I see that crime apology (e.g. slavery) is allowed on
this list while asking for democratic removal of 2 magistrates is
censored.>>

Your definition of the discussion of slavery as it existed in Rome as "crime
apology" is ridiculous. As for your "asking for democratic
removal".......that is rubbish. If you want to see me out of office I
hereby challenge you to bring that issue to whatever authority you choose.
But do not try and claim that the repetitive use of what amounts to "Vedia
must be destroyed" <banished is another translation> as a "request" for
democratic removal. Your complete inability to be honest floors me!

>>I have concerns when not only, one vernacular language is preferred over
all others, but also it is forbidden to write in latin without
translation.>>

yes, yes, you have made it quite clear that you disapprove of the Language
Policy of the Main List. Are we going to go back to beat the corpse of that
dead horse some more? I will note that you, once again, only tell half a
truth. You were informed, in the post of 6/22/01, that *you* needed to
provide translation for all of your posts, including the Latin sig line.
Given your use of non-English to call for the destruction of others, I feel
very justified in making this requirement of you.

>>Where did I condemn her ? I just said she censored posts opposing her and
her husband, if this was not true 2 days ago, you know that it is the case
since then, as I posted the posts and the liost censors replies to Vizantia
and to the tribunes.>>

This does not even make sense! One of the moderated posts you made you
specifically AGREED with germanicus. And let me say, for the record, if my
task here is to silence al opposition to myself or my husband I am doing a
lousy job! LOL It is clear to *anyone* that reads this List that criticism
of *anyone* is fair game, as long as it doesn't cross into personal attacks.

>>No Pompeia, not for one post, it started with a discussion about
democracy, continued with the freedom of speech issue, went on with the
secession issue and now with the freedom of democratic speach against a
magistrate in charge.>>

Normally I keep disciplinary measures confidential, but as you have broached
your own confidentiality, allow me to tell the FULL truth of the matter. On
5/9/01 you were sent an official warning for being rude and degrading others
on the List. You informed me that you saw nothing wrong with your behavior.
You were informed in that e-mail that if you chose to continue making
personal attacks further action would be taken.

Subsequently, on 5/28/01 you were placed on moderated status after making a
post to the Main List calling for people to secede from nova Roma. Again,
you told me you saw nothing wrong with what you had done and that I should
"do what I feel I have to" because you did not plan to change. You were
informed at that time that you would remain on moderated status.

Currently, your choice of signature lines was offensive and a personal
attack. I will not quote again here the relevant portions of List policies,
as I have directed you where to find them yourself above and you could stand
a good reading of them. You were informed that no posts containing the
offensive sig line, or any other personal attacks, would be posted. You
were *told* they would be rejected until the offending line was removed.
When twice you tried to post using the sign line yes, your posts were
returned. As soon as you posted without the offensive line the posts were
immediately approved.

As I said above, if you wish to call for my removal, go for it. As long as
you can do so without personal attacks your posts will be approved. As must
be clear even to you by now, disagreement is more than allowed here.
Personal attacks and a refusal to comply with the List policies are not.

>>And this was not only with me, I am certainly not accusing her of treating
_me_ unfairly,
but she governs this list in order to shut down all opposition, and as you
know this is the first step to totalitarism.>>

Rarely have I heard anything more ridiculous. I run this list to shut down
all opposition? LOL Goodness I do a poor job if that is the case. As fond
as you are of terms such as totalitarianism, I would think you would bother
to go find out what it means before you use it. It in NO way applies to me
or my running of this List.

Vale,
Priscilla vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonis

>>Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus.>>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Fwd: [NovaromaVizantia] Mainlist "Censorship"
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 03:23:00 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@g...> wrote:
> Salve,

SNIP
>
> >>There is no files section on the mainlist Yahoo page, I read the
> guidelines of Yahoo files and of course nothing like that applies.>>
>
> There most *definitely* are List policies in the Files section of
our List
> website. Those policies, which I strongly suggest you re-read, most
> definitely state that personal attacks are unacceptable and
off-topic. To
> reach the files go to www.yahoogroups.com, click on "files" in the left
> column and once in the files section look for "welcome.txt". That
ought to
> be clear enough for you to locate and confirm their existence.
::rolling
> eyes::
>

Salve,

There are NO files in the left coloumn, and least there aren't any
from a non-modarator's web page.

They vanished when the Bogus "Formy vs Germy" poll caused you to
change the policies regarding posting polls and files without
modarator clearance. They used to be between chat and bookmarks, but
are no longer there at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Fwd: [NovaromaVizantia] Mainlist "Censorship"
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Sun, 24 Jun 2001 23:42:08 -0400

Salve,

>>There are NO files in the left coloumn, and least there aren't any
from a non-modarator's web page.

They vanished when the Bogus "Formy vs Germy" poll caused you to
change the policies regarding posting polls and files without
modarator clearance. They used to be between chat and bookmarks, but
are no longer there at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus>>

::smacking self in forehead::

Oh for goodness sake........I had totally forgotten that I had changed the
setting! My apologies to the List at large and to Limitanus specifically.
I had been under the impression that everyone could still view and use the
files, that no new ones could be uploaded without moderator approval. This
situation displeases me, as I don't think it is fair, nor was it ever my
intention, to shut off *access* to all files.

Effective immediately I will re-open the files section. Now that I am aware
of the problem it only seems logical that having access outweighs the danger
of more trolls using the access for negative purposes.

Thank you Drusus for pointing this out and again, my apologies to all for a
situation that was never meant to exist.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonis

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Subject:	[novaroma] Files corrected
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Sun, 24 Jun 2001 23:48:25 -0400

Salve,

My thanks again to Drusus for pointing out the trouble viewing the Files
section of our list website. I have changed the settings so that all
members may download files but only moderators may upload them. This ought
to do what I had first intended: allow members access to information while
denying the Files as a tool for trolls to use to create trouble.

Please, if anyone has any further trouble reaching and using the Files
please let me know and I'll be happy to help you.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonis

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Fwd: [NovaromaVizantia] Mainlist "Censorship"
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 04:18:47 -0000

>From: "JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: <novaroma@-------->
>Subject: RE: [novaroma] Re: Fwd: [NovaromaVizantia] Mainlist "Censorship"
>Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 23:42:08 -0400
>
>Salve,
>
> >>There are NO files in the left coloumn, and least there aren't any
>from a non-modarator's web page.
>
>They vanished when the Bogus "Formy vs Germy" poll caused you to
>change the policies regarding posting polls and files without
>modarator clearance. They used to be between chat and bookmarks, but
>are no longer there at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
>
>Vale,
>L. Sicinius Drusus>>
>
>::smacking self in forehead::
>
>Oh for goodness sake........I had totally forgotten that I had changed the
>setting! My apologies to the List at large and to Limitanus specifically.
>I had been under the impression that everyone could still view and use the
>files, that no new ones could be uploaded without moderator approval. This
>situation displeases me, as I don't think it is fair, nor was it ever my
>intention, to shut off *access* to all files.
>
>Effective immediately I will re-open the files section. Now that I am
>aware
>of the problem it only seems logical that having access outweighs the
>danger
>of more trolls using the access for negative purposes.
>
>Thank you Drusus for pointing this out and again, my apologies to all for a
>situation that was never meant to exist.

Pompeia: Thanks from me too, Druse. And this is a minor oversight on your
part, Priscilla, in an effort to do your job well. For the record, in the
case of a *certain* individual who might think otherwise, this does not
make you a *bad* little curatrix or guilty of the allegations which have
been brought against you as of late.

Just putting things into *perspective*, for those who may require same. :)

Vale,
Pompeia
>
>Vale,
>Priscilla Vedia Serena
>Curatrix Sermonis
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Britannia list
From:	Odysseus49@--------
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 05:10:52 -0000

Salvete citizens,

There is a mailing list for the citizens of Provincia Britannia. And
yet we are greatly lacking in British citizens there, despite having
a population of over 40. Where are you all?

To subscribe, send a blank email to:
BritanniaProvincia-subscribe@--------

The URL for the webpage is:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BritanniaProvincia

Hope to talk to you there!

Valete,
Titus Sertorius Albinus.

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Subject:	[novaroma] New Roman camp discovered
From:	"Gaius Marcius Coriolanus" <coriolanus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 05:27:52 -0000

Quirites

It is a big pleasure to me to announce that new Roman camp was
discovered in building site near city Olomouc in Czech republic,
about 150 km east from Prague.

Archeological research just started and I will carefully watch it. It
is probably northest Roman camp discovered in Provincia Pannonia.

Ave et Vale
Gaius Marcius Coriolanus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: New Roman camp discovered
From:	"Kanat Elibol" <kelibol@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 08:37:42 -0000

Ave..
This is indeed good news...but I guess you've sent it to the wrong
list.This is the Main List ..and here we only accuse each other,
call each other with silly names,try to defend ourselves by
attacking each other with the help of our 'loyal friends',act no
more mature than a six year old kid...
And ask each other with politeness about the reason of why one's
name ends with a certain suffix...!
If you get more info about the new Roman camp..please post it
here,so that maybe we can alter the course of such petty subjects
to what they really should be...to the glorious history of our
ancestors!
Vale bene..
Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion
------------------------------------
> Quirites
>
> It is a big pleasure to me to announce that new Roman camp was
> discovered in building site near city Olomouc in Czech republic,
> about 150 km east from Prague.
>
> Archeological research just started and I will carefully watch it.
It
> is probably northest Roman camp discovered in Provincia Pannonia.
>
> Ave et Vale
> Gaius Marcius Coriolanus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Tapestry follow up
From:	CmndrZil@--------
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 05:55:49 EDT

Salve Everybody,

Remember me? Probably not, oh well. It is late, or early, depending on if
I'm sleeping tonight, so I thought I'd babble a bit. I was the one weaving a
tapestry earlier this month. Since people seemed curious about that, I
figured I say something and give myself a reason to get out of bed in the
morning.

I finally decided on Diana. She's kind of standing there petting a stag and
touching her arrow thing. It was about the right size when I printed it off
of the internet, and I could easily imagine and acquire what color the things
should be.

It would be really cool if I could get a floor loom and flax and what not.
If you agree, send me money and I'd be happy to get those things. Until
then, I made my loom out of a cardboard box (gateway, I think, with the cow
print on it), white thread, embroidery floss, and a comb. The comb is
reassuring. I broke one of the spokes out along time ago, and it just
happens to be at the perfect spot. Roman women improvised. They had to;
Roman men were jerks with their wars and conquests and odd aromas. If a
Roman woman had to make a tapestry, she would, with whatever she had. So
that's about as historically accurate I'm going to get and considering that I
want to pay for higher education, historical accuracy can suffer.

I've gotten to the bottom of her foot. I'm being rather cowardly at this
point because the shoe is going to be horribly difficult and I don't want to
mess it up. I've found that if I cut one color of thread too long, or don't
tie it at the right place, there are ways to hide that, but that's not quite
right in my mind.

So that's the tapestry update. I don't quite have that stern Roman tone. If
its really important to you, send me a floor loom, and then maybe stern Roman
tone will overwhelm me. Until then...

Night,
Tarquinia Euphemia

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Subject:	[novaroma] I'm Almost Back :-) (Cato),(Long)
From:	"A. T. M. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 07:55:46 -0700

Salvete Omnes: Well, after a great deal of computer trouble, I'm almost back in the saddle.
I tried reloading Windows several times. Fooled around with the Registry, (probably shouldn't have tried that). And then reformatted and reloaded Windows 98 again.
Still getting freeze-ups at times, and when loading programs I am getting this message:
" conagent.exe
Properties for this program cannot be verified. The APPS.INF file is missing. Copy the APPS.INF file from you Windows Setup disks into your Windows INF folder."

I apologise for being so off topic, but I am wondering if anyone would be able to tell me how to go about finding this on the Windows 98 disk, and then loading it into my INF folder. I run a 350 Pentium II on a Gigabyte motherboard with a 30 gig harddrive, 256 meg of pc133 ram. I shouldn't be getting freeze-ups. (The systen freezes for a while, and then runs again)
Well, I can see that I have a lot of E-mail to catch up on, and hopefully I can correct the freeze up problems. There are some utilities I use to try to find these problems, but I might end up taking my computer in and getting the professionals to go over it.
Hope to be fully back with everyone soon. :-)

Ave atque vale, Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
Rogator, Novae Romae
Procurator, Canada Orientalis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Fwd: [NovaromaVizantia] Mainlist "Censorship"
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:17:49 -0300

JusticeCMO wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> >>Censuring mail opposing the in cahrge head of the state is the purest form
> of totalitarian censure. And this one you testified yourself.>>
>
> Your mail is not being censored. As per the post you were sent on 6/22/01
> you are moderated. See my other post for a discussion of the difference.
>
Salve,

as you said the difference you make is not a dictionnary one. How would
you call it if in the USA a government agency would read all newspapers
before publishing and having the right to forbid the publication of a
certain article ?

> >>I was probably wrong for the post that did not reach you, since you say so
> I believe you and think the fault comes from yahoo.>>
>
> You are wrong about that. I find it very telling that you still refuse to
> apologize to *me* about your false accusation.
>

I think the following censor of 2 posts clearly showed that if I was
wrong about that particular one your spirit is of censoring.

> >>But the two censured posts you just cited made me address a request to the
> tribunes in order to defend democracy in our nation.>>
>
> The Tribunes were CC'd on the post of 6/22/01. In point of fact I consulted
> with Tribune Fortunatus as well as my scribe before any action was taken.
>
> >>There is no files section on the mainlist Yahoo page, I read the
> guidelines of Yahoo files and of course nothing like that applies.>>
>
> There most *definitely* are List policies in the Files section of our List
> website. Those policies, which I strongly suggest you re-read, most
> definitely state that personal attacks are unacceptable and off-topic. To
> reach the files go to www.yahoogroups.com, click on "files" in the left
> column and once in the files section look for "welcome.txt". That ought to
> be clear enough for you to locate and confirm their existence. ::rolling
> eyes::
>

As your following post showed, there was no files section accessible
last evening.

> >>Not quite from the 2 censored posts I forwarded to Vizantia, one was about
> the Intercessio discussion.>>
>
> The moderated posts contained an offensive signature line.

This line is not offensive, it is the expression of democratic
opposition.
Should all people out there crying for "Mr President X go home" be
punished for being offensive. "Vediorum Amandandorum est" is just the
exact equivalent.

> The post on
> 6/22/01 notifying you of your status clearly explained that no posts
> containing that sign line would be approved.

This post said that latin text should be translated, which I think is
inconstitutional because latin is one of our official languages, I
translated to vernacular in the second one.

> When you ignored that and
> tried to post them anyway, the posts were returned, as explained. I will
> note, since you choose not to, that once the offending line was removed both
> posts went through immediately and with not so much as a punctuation mark
> altered.
>

I never removed anything ! Did somebody edit my posts ?

> >>I have no more concerns about the post that did not appear. I have
> concerns about the 2 censored posts where I got an answer from the list
> censor.>>
>
> I refer you, again, to the post you were sent on 6/22/01 explaining your
> status. You can call me a 'censor' all you like, but one would hope that
> sooner or later you would acknowledge that your own actions led to your
> being placed on moderated status, not my personal feelings for you.
>

Censure always "explains" why people are censored, for the good of
whatever.

> >>I have concerns when in the spirit of the list censor, the Parti
> Quebequois, the Sinn Fein and others should be censored.>>
>
> No one on this List is being censored. You have demonstrated an inability
> to conduct yourself in an appropriate manner. To equate that with some form
> of political oppression is ludicrous.
>

All moderated people are beeing censored, in the first sense of the
word.
Sorry I don t have your post anymore and will have to cite you from
memory.
You equated my call for "secession instead of renunciation" to an
"immediate thread to the state". The 2 parties I cited base all their
discurses on secession, obvioulsy in your mind they should be censored.

> >>I have concerns when I see that crime apology (e.g. slavery) is allowed on
> this list while asking for democratic removal of 2 magistrates is
> censored.>>
>
> Your definition of the discussion of slavery as it existed in Rome as "crime
> apology" is ridiculous. As for your "asking for democratic
> removal".......that is rubbish. If you want to see me out of office I
> hereby challenge you to bring that issue to whatever authority you choose.
> But do not try and claim that the repetitive use of what amounts to "Vedia
> must be destroyed" <banished is another translation> as a "request" for
> democratic removal. Your complete inability to be honest floors me!
>

amando cannot be traduced destroyed, banished could have been a
translation,
since literally it means send away. Meaning here send away from charge
by her electors. You got a "mandate" from your electors I ask for them
to remove (a-) that mandate.

> >>I have concerns when not only, one vernacular language is preferred over
> all others, but also it is forbidden to write in latin without
> translation.>>
>
> yes, yes, you have made it quite clear that you disapprove of the Language
> Policy of the Main List. Are we going to go back to beat the corpse of that
> dead horse some more? I will note that you, once again, only tell half a
> truth. You were informed, in the post of 6/22/01, that *you* needed to
> provide translation for all of your posts, including the Latin sig line.
> Given your use of non-English to call for the destruction of others, I feel
> very justified in making this requirement of you.
>

I use the official language of Roma: Latin. As I already sias this is
not NovaAmerica, it is NovaRoma. And I did not call to destruction.

> >>Where did I condemn her ? I just said she censored posts opposing her and
> her husband, if this was not true 2 days ago, you know that it is the case
> since then, as I posted the posts and the liost censors replies to Vizantia
> and to the tribunes.>>
>
> This does not even make sense! One of the moderated posts you made you
> specifically AGREED with germanicus. And let me say, for the record, if my
> task here is to silence al opposition to myself or my husband I am doing a
> lousy job! LOL It is clear to *anyone* that reads this List that criticism
> of *anyone* is fair game, as long as it doesn't cross into personal attacks.
>
> >>No Pompeia, not for one post, it started with a discussion about
> democracy, continued with the freedom of speech issue, went on with the
> secession issue and now with the freedom of democratic speach against a
> magistrate in charge.>>
>
> Normally I keep disciplinary measures confidential, but as you have broached
> your own confidentiality, allow me to tell the FULL truth of the matter. On
> 5/9/01 you were sent an official warning for being rude and degrading others
> on the List. You informed me that you saw nothing wrong with your behavior.
> You were informed in that e-mail that if you chose to continue making
> personal attacks further action would be taken.
>
> Subsequently, on 5/28/01 you were placed on moderated status after making a
> post to the Main List calling for people to secede from nova Roma. Again,
> you told me you saw nothing wrong with what you had done and that I should
> "do what I feel I have to" because you did not plan to change. You were
> informed at that time that you would remain on moderated status.
>
> Currently, your choice of signature lines was offensive and a personal
> attack. I will not quote again here the relevant portions of List policies,
> as I have directed you where to find them yourself above and you could stand
> a good reading of them. You were informed that no posts containing the
> offensive sig line, or any other personal attacks, would be posted. You
> were *told* they would be rejected until the offending line was removed.
> When twice you tried to post using the sign line yes, your posts were
> returned. As soon as you posted without the offensive line the posts were
> immediately approved.
>

It is not a personnal attack, it is a public attack, it is not youre
person I attack it is the way you behave in charge. I have no interest
in the Vedii private conduct, I am only interrested in what they do as
magistrates.

> As I said above, if you wish to call for my removal, go for it. As long as
> you can do so without personal attacks your posts will be approved. As must
> be clear even to you by now, disagreement is more than allowed here.
> Personal attacks and a refusal to comply with the List policies are not.
>

Where did you see a personnal attack ? My opinion is that the Vedii
should be "a-"mandated: removed from charge. Is this personnal ?

Salve,

Manius Villius Limitanus.

> >>And this was not only with me, I am certainly not accusing her of treating
> _me_ unfairly,
> but she governs this list in order to shut down all opposition, and as you
> know this is the first step to totalitarism.>>
>
> Rarely have I heard anything more ridiculous. I run this list to shut down
> all opposition? LOL Goodness I do a poor job if that is the case. As fond
> as you are of terms such as totalitarianism, I would think you would bother
> to go find out what it means before you use it. It in NO way applies to me
> or my running of this List.
>
> Vale,
> Priscilla vedia Serena
> Curatrix Sermonis
>
> >>Vale,
>
> Manius Villius Limitanus.>>
>
>
>
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Subject:	[novaroma] Final word/Limitanus
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:22:40 -0400

Salve Limitanus,

It has become painfully clear that you have no intention or, perhaps,
ability to take responsibility for any of your own actions. You are on
moderated status because, in the past two months you have insulted List
members, called for open secession from NR and then launched a personal
attack on a List member. *You* may see nothing wrong with those actions,
but as the magistrate entrusted to maintain the Main List I do.

I am tired of explaining myself to you, as it becomes more clear with every
post that you do not wish to hear me, you simply wish to attack. I will
repeat what I said yesterday: If you want to see me out of office feel free
to go through the proper channels and see what you can accomplish. I am
absolutely confident that you will get nowhere, as I have done nothing wrong
and......if I may be immodest for a moment.......I do a darned good job.

As has been explained privately in detail and publicly in general, your
current status is a direct result of your refusal to even make an effort to
comply with List polices. You may feel free to be as angry about that as
you want but I do have a better suggestion for you. Rather than spread lies
and discord here and on Lists I am not even a member of, stop for a moment
and think. Go back and read the first warning you were sent on 5/9. Think
about your own actions in response and since then. Maybe, just maybe, you
will realize that it is your own actions and no form of oppression,
censorship, totalitarianism <insert favorite ridiculous accusation here>
against you.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonis

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Tapestry follow up
From:	margali <margali@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:32:07 -0400

Actually the floor loom isn't what they would have used, they
used warp-weighted looms, and you can make them out of dowels, or
if you have a doorway you don't use [I once had an apartment
chopped out of a larger one with a doorway that the door was
nailed shut on. I used it for a chinning bar mount ;-)]
http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/wwloom.html
Thora has about the best overall site on this you will find ;-)
The site includes [or it used to] a reconstructed roman loom, and
all sorts of other info.

I just checked the roman link, it is still good.

I do know how to drop spin, but just with the spindle, not the
distaff. It is not a hard skill to pick up, and I have seen some
of the women I know actually walking around spinning, and instead
of spinning the spindle with the hands just sort of kicking it
along. I am NOT that good, I just don't spend quite those hours
practicing.

I have actually thought about weaving my own wollens for resale,
in the roman picture it shows a swatch of fabric with the clavii
stripes for the under tunic.

There is also another 'cheat' loom making use of a door, but it
takes 2 people to help you warp it. You wrap the warp vertically
around the door, but not 'around the door' per se, you have a
person on either side of the door, with the person on what will
be the back side of the door holding a dowel the width of the
door with a knob of epoxy on either end [to keep the threads from
sliding off at the wrong time.] You tie the warp to one end of
the rod and pass it over the door, the person on the front side
of the door lines it up on teh front of the door and the warp
then passes under the door. You loop the warp around the dowel
and reverse it to pass the next run under the door, line it up
neatly and pass it over the door, where you pass it around the
dowel, reverse and loop it over the door. You end up with the
warp passing over and under the door, but secured by the dowel.
When it is warped finally, carefully slide the dowel to rest on
the top of the door. Take 2 more dowels of about the same size,
and use them as heddles to raise sheds. Using the first dowel,
tie little threads to alternating warp threads and to the dowel,
do the same with the leftover warp threads and the other dowel.
What you do with these is simple. When you gently pull towards
you with one of the dowels, it pulls the warp threads away from
the door making a sort of space between the other set of warp
threads, this space is where you pass your shuttle [basically a
stick with the weft thread neatly wound on it.] after the pass,
release the shed and pull the other shed, pass the shuttle back
the other way in this new shed. Repeat until you go insane ;-)
Every 10 passes or so, use the comb to compress the fabric. You
also have to make sure that you always pull the weft thread
through with the same tension to keep the selvedge edges even.
The comb used isn't actually like a modern hair comb, it is more
like an uktra heavy 'fro pick' style, and it is used with a sort
of 'backhand flip' up passing the width of the loom several
times.

Anybody want to know how to use this tpe of loom to make oriental
rugs? I know how to make the right knots ...
margali

Hyapatia Asinia [who probably could be dropped back and survive
quite nicely, thanks!]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] I'm Almost Back :-) (Cato),(Long)
From:	margali <margali@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:36:23 -0400

OK, seat of the pants advice [nope, not a computer geek, nor do I
play one on TV, I just sort of have to do crap like this because
I don't have the money to take it in to a shop ;-) ]

First, put the disc in your cd drive, noting the letter of the
drive.
right mouse click on start to get to 'find'
type in the name of the file you need, selecting the right drive
for your cd drive.
find file. This will bring up a little search screen, that when
you find the particular file it will tell you exactly where it
is. you can then go to that file under 'explore' and do a
copy/paste into the right destination folder.

Hopefully this is clear enough for you, I am not a geek, most of
my friends call me the 'queen of point and click' ;-)
margali

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: I'm Almost Back :-) (Cato),(Long)
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 13:37:16 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "A. T. M. Cato" <a.cato@s...> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes: Well, after a great deal of computer trouble, I'm
almost back in the saddle.
> I tried reloading Windows several times. Fooled around with the
Registry, (probably shouldn't have tried that). And then reformatted
and reloaded Windows 98 again.
> Still getting freeze-ups at times, and when loading programs I
am getting this message:
> " conagent.exe
> Properties for this program cannot be verified. The APPS.INF
file is missing. Copy the APPS.INF file from you Windows Setup disks
into your Windows INF folder."
>
> I apologise for being so off topic, but I am wondering if anyone
would be able to tell me how to go about finding this on the Windows
98 disk, and then loading it into my INF folder. I run a 350 Pentium
II on a Gigabyte motherboard with a 30 gig harddrive, 256 meg of pc133
ram. I shouldn't be getting freeze-ups. (The systen freezes for a
while, and then runs again)
> Well, I can see that I have a lot of E-mail to catch up on, and
hopefully I can correct the freeze up problems. There are some
utilities I use to try to find these problems, but I might end up
taking my computer in and getting the professionals to go over it.
> Hope to be fully back with everyone soon. :-)
>
> Ave atque vale, Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
> Rogator, Novae Romae
> Procurator, Canada Orientalis

Salve Appi Tulli,

I Don't have a 98 Disk handy (I'm running NT & Linux)

I Would guess that it's hidden in one of the CAB files, which are
similar to ZIP files. Once you find a copy all you have to do is copy
it to the C:\Windows\Inf folder.

The easiest way to find it is to look on a friends Win98 PC and copy
it to a floppy disk, then copy it from the floppy to your PC.

You could also ask someone to mail you a copy. You need to let us know
if you are using the original version of 98 or 98 Second Edition so
you get the right version.

Vale
L. Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: [NR_CanOcc] propraetor returning?
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 08:43:45 -0500

I am very sorry, but I my dealing with a touchy separation from my wife and
it will take me two more weeks to establish an internet connection. Until
that time, I have very limited access to this Computer so I can not reply
with any frequency. So please bear with me on this for two more weeks then I
will be back.

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: <Odysseus49@-------->
To: <NR_CanOcc@-------->
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 11:56 PM
Subject: [NR_CanOcc] propraetor returning?

> Salvete,
>
> anyone got news about when Quintus Sertorius is returning?
>
> Valete,
> Titus Sertorius Albinus.
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] The Job!
From:	ksterne@--------
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:16:17 -0000

>>if I may be immodest for a moment.......I do a darned good job<<

Indeed you do in a job that appears to be a lot of work with little
glamor and few thanks.

Well, thank you Priscillia Vedia.

Vale,
Gaius Popillius Laenas

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: censorship
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <lespeterson@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 08:57:11 -0700

Salvete Omnes,

Our Webmistress recently wrote:
. A
citizen and member of this List has charged that
a very serious wrong is
being committed. That deserves to be addressed
and the truth needs to be
known. Our members deserve no less, and the
accused certainly need to speak
out and let the truth be known.

An excellent point. I have another. Priscilla Vedia Serena is our elected Webmistress doing her appointed duty. I, for one, appreciate her vigilant monitoring of the ML. She, and her staff, have been of great assistance to me and my Gens. We applaud your efforts to enforce the rules of the ML.

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Tribune's Opinion on Censorship
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 11:50:34 US/Central

Tribunus Plebis T Labienus Quiritibus SPD

Since my name has come up in the argument between Curatrix Sermonem Priscilla
Vedia and M' Villius, and since they have both seen fit to contact me, the one
asking for advice and the other seeking action, I feel it incumbent upon me to
make clear my opinion concerning the constitutionality of Curatrix Vedia's
recent actions toward M' Villius.

First, let me state that I do not believe that Curatrix Vedia was responsible
for the loss of M' Villius' original message. Yahoo is, in many ways, an
inferior e-mail provider, supplying an inconsistent and poorly implemented
service. I have, on occasion, had to wait days before seeing a message I�ve
posted to some of Yahoogroups� lists. Once in a while, one just never appears,
and I have to resend it. I expect this is what happened to M' Villius' post.
I suggest to him that he over reacted when he accused the curatrix of censoring
him, and that, in future, he should attempt resending a post that does not
reach the list, followed by privately contacting the curatrix should that not
correct the situation, saving public accusations for those occasions when
evidence is reasonably clear and all other attempts to find a remedy have
failed.

Now, I shall address the main issue. The constitution grants the follow right
to our cives regarding public discourse:

"II.B.4. The right to participate in all public forums and discussions, and
the right to reasonably expect such forums to be supported by the State. Such
communications, regardless of their content, may not be restricted by the
State, except where they represent an imminent and clear danger to the
Republic. Such officially sponsored forums may be expected to be reasonably
moderated in the interests of maintaining order and civility;"

Therefore, there are only two cases in which the curator sermonem may censor
posts; the case in which they represent a danger to the state, and the case in
which they sufficiently cause disorder or are uncivil. M' Villius has been
accused of sending posts which qualify for both.

In the first case, he has clearly called for secession from the Respublica. It
is my opinion that such a call can reasonably be interpreted to represent
a "clear danger to the Republic," and that it is therefore within Curatrix
Vedia�s authority to restrict the content of M' Villius' communications in this
instance.

The second case is not so clear. When I first read M' Villius' signature, I
interpreted it as political speech, which is afforded special protections in
most modern democracies (I use the term in its broadest sense), and which is a
necessary element in such states. M' Villius has independently claimed that my
interpretation was correct.

However, the statement he made was interpreted by Curatrix Vedia as a direct
personal attack. It may be that I am partially to blame for this, as I was, to
my knowledge, the first person who provided her with a translation of the
phrase, and I suggested that it meant "The Vedii should be banished." M'
Villius' knowledge of Latin is superior to my own, and the implication of his
signature line is substantially different if one reads 'remove', rather
than 'banish', for 'amando'.

In any case, in my advice to her, I suggested that she should rethink her
actions if she could not answer yes to the question, "Would I interpret M'
Villius' signature to be a personal attack, as opposed to political speech, if
it were directed toward someone else." Apparently, she feels that she would,
and that she would provide the same degree of protection to other list members--
including M' Villius--that she is providing for her husband and herself. There
is no substantive evidence that I can recall that would lead me to believe
otherwise, and, as curatrix sermonem, Priscilla Vedia must be allowed some
leeway in order to perform her job.

It is, therefore, my conclusion that Curatrix Vedia has not sufficiently
infringed upon M' Villius' constitutional rights in this matter to warrant my
use of intercessio against his being placed on moderated status, primarily
because that action was precipitated by his call for secession. Had it been
imposed purely due to the signature line, I would interfere. In light of that,
I would suggest to the curatrix that she treads on dangerous ground when it
comes to limiting political speech, and that she should consequently err on the
side of caution when judging the difference between political speech and an
insult. I would also suggest that, in light of M' Villius' explanation of his
signature line, she should proceed to allow him to use it in future.

In closing, I remind M' Villius that the constitution provides a recourse
beyond the tribunate�s limited powers. He has, as always, "II.B.5. The right
of provocatio; to appeal a decision of a magistrate that has a direct negative
impact upon that citizen to the comitia populi tributa." If he feels strongly
enough that a magistrate has abused him, he may take his case to the people by
way of the praetores.

Valete

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The Comitia Plebis Tributa and The Tribunes
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:50:21 -0000

Salvete

> Actually, I might have another idea along these lines. If I am
> remembering correctly, wasn't there a period when the plebiscitum
> applied only to the members of the Plebeian Order? Such a change to
> our system would enhance the legislative role of the Tribunes, but
> at the same time not steamroller over the Patricians (who, it has
> been mentioned, make up a much larger percentage of our population
> than they did in Roma Antiqua). In fact, plebiscitum could be
> passed in the CPlT as a sort of "test", prior to being acted by the
> Comitia Populi...

I would say that such a change would not "enhance the legislative
role of the Tribunes," but would rather degrade it. At the beginning
of this year, when I asked why the tribuni are empowered to call the
Concilium Plebis together to enact leges which affect the whole
populace despite the lack of an inherent oligarchic threat from the
ordo patricius, the answer I received from Consul Vedius (I believe,
my memory could be faulty) was that the CPlT existed to allow the
tribuni to "correct" the enactment of a constitutional but abusive
edictum or lex. In other words, it empowers them to act in a
legislative manner in much the same way as they use intercessio. To
make this suggested change would substantially reduce their power to
act in this way.

Also, such a change would mark a further division between the
orders. This is, IMO, a bad idea. We already have some friction
due to the perceived differences and advantages of each order, as
well as due to the expectations that the historical divisions impart
to new (and some old) members. It would be especially bad to use the
plebs as legal guinea pigs, creating one set of leges for plebs and
one for patricians.

Either allowing tribuni to call the CPoT or removing their
legislative powers altogether would be preferable to the change
Consul Vedius suggests here. Between the two, keeping the
tribunate's legislative abilities is the better course, as it
maintains the dynamic of a pseudo-bicameral system (a system whose
advantages Consul Vedius has occasionally praised) and it allows them
to fulfill their historic legislative role (historicity being one of
Nova Roma's stated goals) without further dividing the orders.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Curatrix Sermonis
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?WWFubiBRdely6Q==?= <yquere@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:34:46 +0200

Salvete Omnes,

Just a word of supporting to our Curatrix Sermonis.
As far as I was able to see, Priscillia Vedia has always tried to perform
her duties of "moderatress" in a constructive way, being firm when necessary
and expressing and conciliating things with great wisdom.
May she continue this way.
Thank you Priscilia Vedia for your excellent job.

Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio
Propraetor Galliae

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Subject:	[novaroma] On list policies, lists, censorship and moderation
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:01:13 +0200

Salvete Quirites,

I find the discussion of recent here to be a bad example of how our list
should / could work.

On the one hand, we have Manius Villius, who is a fierce opponent of
oligarchism and totalitarianism in any sense. He is daring, bold and
unafraid, and does not refrain from using rhetoric, or language that might
seem offensive to others. This is in itself a blade that cuts both ways. Of
all the people I know in Nova Roma -- and I say this without disrespect --
Limitanus is one of the most steadfast and honest I know. But this also
results in the fact that he has offended people where they were either not
intended to feel offended, or where the offence was unnecessary. He reminds
me very much of a person I knew on another discussion list; his manner of
discussing was quite aggressive and analyzing. He said point blank what he
had on his mind, without resorting to personal vulgarities or impoliteness.
Some people disliked him, but they were often reminded that this person was
not there to be nice, but to have an honest discussion. I think the same
would apply for Limitanus -- he is not here to admire the state.

On the other hand, we have Priscilla Vedia, who is trying to enforce her own
list policies as good as she can, in a spirit of equality, justice and
plainspeak. I myself have found myself moderated quite a lot of times, and
it has been usually justifyably so. However, the power to moderate people,
whether it is for their own sake or whether it happens in agreement with the
tribuni or scribae, is a very delicate one. Especially so when Priscilla
herself regulary rushes into discussions, and makes her viewpoints known as
any other citizen with a decent mind and an educated pen. And when someone
uses language that is not allowed by the list policies, in a posting
criticizing the Curatrix' actions or words, and is subsequently moderated, a
conflict is likely to arise. And most certainly so if both persons have a
different vision of what is acceptable to say, and what is not. I, for
example, was surprised that I was unallowed to use the word b�llsh�t here,
while everyone knows what bs means. That being said, it is fairly easy to
learn that 410 listmembers have 410 different visions of what is good and
what is not good to say.

In conclusion about the conflict itself, I think it is a little silly.
Manius Villius' posting got lost in the mysterious mazes of Yahoo!, and took
it as a sign of moderation, because he had been moderated in the past, too,
for words that were not harmful according to his optique. Priscilla Vedia
says that she has been accused of nothing, and is trying to act as honestly
as possible while there is a clear animosity between them two. I do not
doubt the sincerity of our Curatrix, but that does not make the matter a
clear one. It might be profitable for everyone if Limitanus apologized for
his error, and if Priscilla "loosened the reins" on her policy.

In conclusion about the list policy however, I must say that I find NR to be
rather two-faced about this. Over here, we have politeness enforced by law
and custom. While it is good to have it enforced by custom, it is bad to
have it enforced by law. If the morale is low, the laws are hard. But on a
list such as the Back Alley, about anything goes. It's the vent shaft of NR,
and I think the things said there are much uglier than they would be if this
list was unmoderated. Why should citizens abide by a policy of moral
standards, if its creators do all the contrary on other lists? That strikes
me as an inconsistency. Double lists, double standards. I think it's not for
nothing the word "duplex" meant not only "double" but also "two-faced" in
Latin.

Valete bene!
Sextus Apollonius Draco

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Subject:	[novaroma] Gentes et Patresfamilias
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:30:49 US/Central

Salvete

I now invoke my right to indulge in a time-honored Nova Roman tradition; the
ability to flay not just the skin and meat of an equine, but to take one's whip
to its bones as well.

Currently, the constitution states:
"Each gens shall, through whatever means it may determine appropriate, have a
paterfamilias (fem. materfamilias) who shall act as the leader of the gens and
speak for it when necessary. The holder of this position must be registered as
such with the censors. The paterfamilias may, at his or her discretion, expel
members of their gens, or accept new members into it."

I wonder if it would not solve the majority of the problems with the current
system, and allow gentes to pursue whatever course they choose, if that section
were reworded to say:
"Each gens shall, through whatever means it may determine appropriate, have at
least one paterfamilias (fem. materfamilias) who shall act as the leader(s) of
the gens and speak for it when necessary. The holder(s) of this position must
be registered as such with the censors. A paterfamilias may, at his
discretion, expel members of his gens, or accept new members into it, according
to those rules by which his gens operates."

In this way, gentes could continue to operate as they do now, but would also
have the option of organizing themselves along more historical lines by
designating new patresfamilias along with new familiae. Too, they could
officially designate alternate patresfamilias that could act for the primary
paterfamilias when he is unavailable.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] On list policies, lists, censorship and moderation
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:53:59 -0400

Salve,

>>On the other hand, we have Priscilla Vedia, who is trying to enforce her
own list policies as good as she can, in a spirit of equality, justice and
plainspeak.>>

Not to nit-pick but I am not trying to enforce *personal* policies here. I
am dedicated to doing my duty as outlined in my job description. The List
Polices, actually, with only two exceptions <Language and moderation of new
members> are the same as they have been since this List was started several
years ago.

>>However, the power to moderate people, whether it is for their own sake or
whether it happens in agreement with the tribuni or scribae, is a very
delicate one.>>

I agree 100%. The decision even to warn someone is never taken lightly. I
can honestly say that I think long and hard before taking any action and I
do my level best to let as much as I can "go" without any intervention.

>>Especially so when Priscilla herself regulary rushes into discussions, and
makes her viewpoints known as any other citizen with a decent mind and an
educated pen.>>

I would like to clarify a point here. When I was elected Curatrix I
realized that taking the position would, in some people's minds, mean that
*anything* I posted would be "official". I have, therefore, been very
careful to *only* sign my title to official posts. Posts I make that are
simply signed "Priscilla Vedia Serena" are simply plain old citizen-me, not
the "magistrate" speaking. I believe this is a dilemma many magistrates
face, and my solution is not a perfect one, but I do not believe any elected
official needs to give up personal participation in this Forum because of
their office. Not that this is what you meant by your statement, but I felt
I needed to clarify my personal practices.

>>I, for example, was surprised that I was unallowed to use the word
b�llsh�t here,
while everyone knows what bs means.>>

Think of this as "the office". This is the official communication Forum not
only for our citizens but for prospective citizens and minors as well. More
on this point below.

>>That being said, it is fairly easy to learn that 410 listmembers have 410
different visions of what is good and what is not good to say.>>

Absolutely true. That is part of why this List is moderated. Regardless of
personal feelings and moods and tempers, there needs to be a standard of
civility in our official forum.

>>In conclusion about the list policy however, I must say that I find NR to
be
rather two-faced about this. Over here, we have politeness enforced by law
and custom. While it is good to have it enforced by custom, it is bad to
have it enforced by law. If the morale is low, the laws are hard. But on a
list such as the Back Alley, about anything goes. It's the vent shaft of NR,
and I think the things said there are much uglier than they would be if this
list was unmoderated. Why should citizens abide by a policy of moral
standards, if its creators do all the contrary on other lists? That strikes
me as an inconsistency. Double lists, double standards. I think it's not for
nothing the word "duplex" meant not only "double" but also "two-faced" in
Latin.>>

I believe your basic premise is in error here. The Back Alley is an
unofficial list. The Main List is an official list. Part of the purpose of
the Main List is to introduce us to new and prospective citizens. The
entire purpose of the Back Alley is to be a Taverna, a back room in which to
cast off titles and just shoot the breeze. Of course the standard of
behavior is going to be different, there is nothing 'two-faced' about that.
Think of it this way. When you attend school, or church or your
job........do you belch out loud? scratch yourself? walk around in your
underwear? I would presume not. However, those *are* all things you would
likely have no problem doing in the privacy of your own home. Just as
workers may stop at a bar after work and complain loudly about what a pain
in the podex the boss is, drink a few beers and wear jeans........they would
likely *never* do such things AT work. Those of us who are members of the
Back Alley are not working from a double standard at all. Here, in my case
specifically, I am at *work*. In the Back Alley I can sit back, relax and
adopt a much more casual attitude. That is no hypocrisy or double standard,
it is life. The reason members of this List should abide by moral standards
is the same reason you dress a certain way for a professional job: there is
a time and a place for everything. As for having an unmoderated List, that
was tried and it was pretty much universally agreed that the experiment was
a disaster. Like it or not, the List functions more smoothly (I will leave
the 'better or worse' judgment to each reader) when it is moderated.

I appreciate the points you have made and hope you see that my replies are
not said in any heat. I simply see things differently and hope I have helped
you to see another perspective as well.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonis

Valete bene!
Sextus Apollonius Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On list policies, lists, censorship and moderation
From:	"DECIVS CORNELIVS SEPVLCHATIVS" <sstorm1@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:47:03 -0500

"what a pain
in the podex the boss is"

please translate this on future postings, according to your own rules, please.

;)
DECIVS CORNELIVS SEPULCHATIVS
=========^=====================
LEGATVS
LEGIO XXXI - AQVILAE

http://legionxxxi.homestead.com/index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: JusticeCMO
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 2:53 PM
Subject: RE: [novaroma] On list policies, lists, censorship and moderation

Salve,

>>On the other hand, we have Priscilla Vedia, who is trying to enforce her
own list policies as good as she can, in a spirit of equality, justice and
plainspeak.>>

Not to nit-pick but I am not trying to enforce *personal* policies here. I
am dedicated to doing my duty as outlined in my job description. The List
Polices, actually, with only two exceptions <Language and moderation of new
members> are the same as they have been since this List was started several
years ago.

>>However, the power to moderate people, whether it is for their own sake or
whether it happens in agreement with the tribuni or scribae, is a very
delicate one.>>

I agree 100%. The decision even to warn someone is never taken lightly. I
can honestly say that I think long and hard before taking any action and I
do my level best to let as much as I can "go" without any intervention.

>>Especially so when Priscilla herself regulary rushes into discussions, and
makes her viewpoints known as any other citizen with a decent mind and an
educated pen.>>

I would like to clarify a point here. When I was elected Curatrix I
realized that taking the position would, in some people's minds, mean that
*anything* I posted would be "official". I have, therefore, been very
careful to *only* sign my title to official posts. Posts I make that are
simply signed "Priscilla Vedia Serena" are simply plain old citizen-me, not
the "magistrate" speaking. I believe this is a dilemma many magistrates
face, and my solution is not a perfect one, but I do not believe any elected
official needs to give up personal participation in this Forum because of
their office. Not that this is what you meant by your statement, but I felt
I needed to clarify my personal practices.

>>I, for example, was surprised that I was unallowed to use the word
b�llsh�t here,
while everyone knows what bs means.>>

Think of this as "the office". This is the official communication Forum not
only for our citizens but for prospective citizens and minors as well. More
on this point below.

>>That being said, it is fairly easy to learn that 410 listmembers have 410
different visions of what is good and what is not good to say.>>

Absolutely true. That is part of why this List is moderated. Regardless of
personal feelings and moods and tempers, there needs to be a standard of
civility in our official forum.

>>In conclusion about the list policy however, I must say that I find NR to
be
rather two-faced about this. Over here, we have politeness enforced by law
and custom. While it is good to have it enforced by custom, it is bad to
have it enforced by law. If the morale is low, the laws are hard. But on a
list such as the Back Alley, about anything goes. It's the vent shaft of NR,
and I think the things said there are much uglier than they would be if this
list was unmoderated. Why should citizens abide by a policy of moral
standards, if its creators do all the contrary on other lists? That strikes
me as an inconsistency. Double lists, double standards. I think it's not for
nothing the word "duplex" meant not only "double" but also "two-faced" in
Latin.>>

I believe your basic premise is in error here. The Back Alley is an
unofficial list. The Main List is an official list. Part of the purpose of
the Main List is to introduce us to new and prospective citizens. The
entire purpose of the Back Alley is to be a Taverna, a back room in which to
cast off titles and just shoot the breeze. Of course the standard of
behavior is going to be different, there is nothing 'two-faced' about that.
Think of it this way. When you attend school, or church or your
job........do you belch out loud? scratch yourself? walk around in your
underwear? I would presume not. However, those *are* all things you would
likely have no problem doing in the privacy of your own home. Just as
workers may stop at a bar after work and complain loudly about what a pain
in the podex the boss is, drink a few beers and wear jeans........they would
likely *never* do such things AT work. Those of us who are members of the
Back Alley are not working from a double standard at all. Here, in my case
specifically, I am at *work*. In the Back Alley I can sit back, relax and
adopt a much more casual attitude. That is no hypocrisy or double standard,
it is life. The reason members of this List should abide by moral standards
is the same reason you dress a certain way for a professional job: there is
a time and a place for everything. As for having an unmoderated List, that
was tried and it was pretty much universally agreed that the experiment was
a disaster. Like it or not, the List functions more smoothly (I will leave
the 'better or worse' judgment to each reader) when it is moderated.

I appreciate the points you have made and hope you see that my replies are
not said in any heat. I simply see things differently and hope I have helped
you to see another perspective as well.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonis

Valete bene!
Sextus Apollonius Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The Comitia Plebis Tributa and The Tribunes
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:32:14 -0700 (PDT)

--- labienus@-------- wrote:

<<snipped>>

> Either allowing tribuni to call the CPoT or removing their
> legislative powers altogether would be preferable to the change
> Consul Vedius suggests here. Between the two, keeping the
> tribunate's legislative abilities is the better course, as it
> maintains the dynamic of a pseudo-bicameral system (a system whose
> advantages Consul Vedius has occasionally praised) and it allows them
> to fulfill their historic legislative role (historicity being one of
> Nova Roma's stated goals) without further dividing the orders.

I agree with you, Tribune Labiene. In my opinion, we could allow the
Tribuni to present legislation to the Comitia Populi Tributa until the
time when the number of plebeians is much higher than the number of
patricians, and thus the Comitia Plebis Tributa is a really
"democratic" assembly.

I think that the high number of patricians is a consequence of the
inherent historical incorrectness of our gentes system. If we enact a
system more adherent to Roman tradition (such as taking account of the
different concepts of gentes and familiae, as proposed by the
honorabilis L. Sicinius Drusus), the number of patricians and plebeians
will equate itself to the rate of Roma Antiqua, and will allow us to
keep historical correctness in other venues, like allowing the Comitia
Plebis Tributa to enact leges.

I think it should be made clear that this action (allowing the Tribuni
to propose leges to the Comitia Populi Tributa) would be just a
temporary measure, until the time when the relation between patricians
and plebeians "fixes" itself.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Tribune's Opinion on Censorship
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:49:19 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes; et salve, Tribune Labiene.

--- labienus@-------- wrote:

<<snipped>>

> In the first case, he has clearly called for secession from the
> Respublica. It
> is my opinion that such a call can reasonably be interpreted to
> represent
> a "clear danger to the Republic," and that it is therefore within
> Curatrix
> Vedia�s authority to restrict the content of M' Villius'
> communications in this
> instance.

I have to disagree with you. I do not support M. Villius Limitanus'
call for secession, but I don't think it can be viewed as a "clear
danger to the Republic". In my own micronation, Spain, we have several
secessionist parties; some of them even openly supporting terrorist
action. However, none of them is banned from expressing their points of
view. This is what "freedom of speech" means.

What would be "clear danger to the Republic" mean to me? Something that
could really destroy our micronation; not a call for secession, which
seems a legitimate (albeit not very reasonable) claim.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gentes et Patresfamilias
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:07:51 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes; et salve, Tribune Labiene.

--- labienus@-------- wrote:
> Salvete
>
> I now invoke my right to indulge in a time-honored Nova Roman
> tradition; the
> ability to flay not just the skin and meat of an equine, but to take
> one's whip
> to its bones as well.
>
> Currently, the constitution states:
> "Each gens shall, through whatever means it may determine
> appropriate, have a
> paterfamilias (fem. materfamilias) who shall act as the leader of the
> gens and
> speak for it when necessary. The holder of this position must be
> registered as
> such with the censors. The paterfamilias may, at his or her
> discretion, expel
> members of their gens, or accept new members into it."
>
> I wonder if it would not solve the majority of the problems with the
> current
> system, and allow gentes to pursue whatever course they choose, if
> that section
> were reworded to say:
> "Each gens shall, through whatever means it may determine
> appropriate, have at
> least one paterfamilias (fem. materfamilias) who shall act as the
> leader(s) of
> the gens and speak for it when necessary. The holder(s) of this
> position must
> be registered as such with the censors. A paterfamilias may, at his
> discretion, expel members of his gens, or accept new members into it,
> according
> to those rules by which his gens operates."
>
> In this way, gentes could continue to operate as they do now, but
> would also
> have the option of organizing themselves along more historical lines
> by
> designating new patresfamilias along with new familiae. Too, they
> could
> officially designate alternate patresfamilias that could act for the
> primary
> paterfamilias when he is unavailable.

It is a good proposal; fair and simple. However, it still has one flaw:
it does not recognize the existence of different familiae within a
gens. A gens would be able to have different patres or matres familias,
which is a rather good thing; however, these patres and matres would be
of the whole gens and not of the familiae that it includes.

I guess you were just trying to provide a simple solution to this
problem, and I really appreciate it. However, your solution, although
well thought and commendable, is just a patch, and does not solve the
deep implications the difference between gentes and familiae needs to
cause.

I would suggest that we implemented the solution of having a commitee
to produce a document in the line of a "reform bill" as quickly as
possible. Doing otherwise is simply delaying this issue for a later
date, when any solution reached will be more difficult to implement.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

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