Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Citizenship Diploma Idea
From:	Maximina Octavia <myownq@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:37:12 -0700 (PDT)

Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@--------> wrote: Maximina Octavia wrote:



> I apologize for butting in, however, there is a way you can deflect the cost
> the diplomas by putting the onus on the citizen.

>
> Create a website, there are still lots of free ones, where the citizen can
> print out their own. If they don't have a printer, one can be printed at the
> library or loaded on a floppy and printed from the floppy.

Maximnia Octavia, I am the current printer and organiser of the proposed
citizenship diploma along with Pompeia Cornelia. The province of Canada
Orientalis has taken up this project with the goal of raising income for the
nation and province. Also a printed off certificate is hardly official.

You see this certificate will be a official document of this nation. It will
be on special paper along with a seal. How would one insert his or her name
and date on a printed off version? A printed version would be hardly
official or individual. We are currently look at selling these certificates
for only around $5.00 Canadian. It will be defiantly worth every penny of
it.

>
> Sorry for the intrusion, I am new, but here is my two-cents anyway. I am sure
> I know very little about how these things are done, but I am frugal and this
> is how I would do it.

Welcome to Nova Roma. I hope you will learn much.

"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"
-Marcus Fabius Quintilianus

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Canada Orientalis Provincia
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien
--

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Citizenship Diploma Idea
From:	margali <margali@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:27:49 -0400

< Hand waving madly in air>
OOOH I know how -
I do the seti at home thing, and on their website they have a do
it yourself appreciation certificate that manages this. I haven't
done it, but it's there [I don't need the pat on the back, I just
want ET to phone us ;-)
</Hand waving madly in air>
margali
url is something like seti@--------



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Citizenship Diploma Idea
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia Strabo" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:59:16 -0000

Salve:

With due respect, can you reproduce it with an authentic seal, so that it is
an official document, like a birth certificate?

I could do it on *my* printer too, but the results would be somewhat tacky.
Amulius Claudius, and the local printers from which I have received quotes
are all professionals, who will render a fine product.

I have been in discussion with the consuls regarding this, and I am
confident that an admirable and reasonably priced certificate can be
produced....whether you live in Orlando or Oslo. The price that Claudius
quoted in an earlier post is not carved in stone; we have yet to
comprehensively assess our expenses, and render a final financial scenerio
to the Consuls.

I am just awaiting a reply to some questions about the official seal.

This idea was conceived by a member of our provincia, and our Provincia
Retarius is a gifted designer. We all collectively agreed to offer to
handle it.


Regarding a small profit from the venture: Is it so wrong that the coffers
of Nova Roma be credited from the earnest work of a few dedicated civites? I
don't think so. It is not like all the profit is going into our individual
pockets. We are doing this with all of the res publica in mind, and not
just our provincia.

I do not post this with offense in any way; merely to set the record
straight on what we propose and why we are truly doing this.

In Amicitia,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
Propraetrix Canada Orientalis
NOVA ROMA


>From: margali <margali@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Citizenship Diploma Idea
>Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:27:49 -0400
>
>< Hand waving madly in air>
>OOOH I know how -
>I do the seti at home thing, and on their website they have a do
>it yourself appreciation certificate that manages this. I haven't
>done it, but it's there [I don't need the pat on the back, I just
>want ET to phone us ;-)
></Hand waving madly in air>
>margali
>url is something like seti@--------

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Citizenship Diploma Idea
From:	margali <margali@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:17:30 -0400

Personally, I am waiting for a nice one with a seal ;-)

Anybody have a link for a good picture of an extant roman one?
margali



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Tribune's Opinion on Censorship
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:34:24 -0500

Salvete Gnai Salix omnesque

> I have to disagree with you. I do not support M. Villius Limitanus'
> call for secession, but I don't think it can be viewed as a "clear
> danger to the Republic".

Note that I said that it can "reasonably be interpreted to represent a
'clear danger...'". I am not at all certain that I would decide the
case as Curatrix Vedia has, and I am rather glad that it is not me who
must make the decision. I admit that it is quite likely that my own
bias as a citizen of the US, a country in which secession is generally
seen as dangerous for a variety of reasons, is clouding my judgement in
this matter. That thought was one of many that did not make my decision
an easy one.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Ipsa scientia potestas est."
-Francis Bacon



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gentes et Patresfamilias
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:39:02 -0500

Salvete iterum

> It is a good proposal; fair and simple. However, it still has one flaw:
> it does not recognize the existence of different familiae within a
> gens. A gens would be able to have different patres or matres familias,
> which is a rather good thing; however, these patres and matres would be
> of the whole gens and not of the familiae that it includes.

Well, it allows each gens the ability to recognize the existence of
familiae if the gentiles so desire.

> I guess you were just trying to provide a simple solution to this
> problem, and I really appreciate it.

I was offering it primarily in the spirit of compromise, as it allows
those gentes that prefer the status quo to remain as they are, and those
gentes that prefer to follow another path the flexibility necessary to
do so.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
--
"Ipsa scientia potestas est."
-Francis Bacon



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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Gentes et Patresfamilias
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 26 Jun 2001 04:28:13 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Fortunatus <labienus@t...> wrote:
> Salvete iterum
>
> > It is a good proposal; fair and simple. However, it still has one
flaw:
> > it does not recognize the existence of different familiae within a
> > gens. A gens would be able to have different patres or matres
familias,
> > which is a rather good thing; however, these patres and matres
would be
> > of the whole gens and not of the familiae that it includes.
>
> Well, it allows each gens the ability to recognize the existence of
> familiae if the gentiles so desire.
>
> > I guess you were just trying to provide a simple solution to this
> > problem, and I really appreciate it.
>
> I was offering it primarily in the spirit of compromise, as it allows
> those gentes that prefer the status quo to remain as they are, and those
> gentes that prefer to follow another path the flexibility necessary to
> do so.
>
> Valete
> T Labienus Fortunatus
> --
> "Ipsa scientia potestas est."
> -Francis Bacon

Salvete

I've been working on some ideas that would allow Gens the option of a
more historic structure, while allowing the Gens that wish to remain
as they are to do so.


Section II D would read like this.

D Gentes. Families and clans being the backbone of Roman society, the
prerogatives and responsibilities of the family are of primary
importance to Nova Roma. Except where specifically dealt with in this
constitution and the law, each gens shall have the right to determine
its own course of action, and parents shall have the undisputed right
and responsibility to see to the education and raising of their children
1. Each Gens shall be registered with the Censors, who will
maintain records of gens membership and other relevant information.
2. A Gens may at it's option register with the Censors as a multi
family Gens. Each Family within a multi family Gens shall be
registered with the Censors, who will maintain records of gens
membership and other relevant information.
3. No two Gentes may have the same nomen (surname) unless they are
differentiated by an agnomen. In a multi family Gens no two families
may have the same Cognomen unless they are differentiated by an
agnomen. The Censors shall be responsible for ensuring this rule is
observed.
4. Each Gens shall, through whatever means it may determine
appropriate, have a patergentilias (fem. matergentilias) who shall act
as the leader of the Gens and speak for it when necessary. The holder
of this position must be registered as such with the censors. The
patergentilias may, at his or her discretion, expel members of their
gens, or accept new members into it.
5. Each multi family Gens shall, through whatever means it may
determine appropriate, have a paterfamilias (fem. materfamilias) for
each family within the Gens who shall act as the leader of the Family
and speak for it when necessary. The holder of this position must be
registered as such with the censors. The paterfamilias may, with the
permission of the Patergentilis, expel members of their Family, or
accept new members into it.

The ONLY change that would impact a current Gens without it's choice
is the head of the Gens Tittle would change from Paterfamilis to
Patergentilis. This is so a Gens can retain it's current Paterfamilis
as the overall head of the Gens after becoming a multi family Gens if
it so wishes. A Patergentilis could maintain all his authority or
become a figure head by delegating all of it as per II D 5, or adopt a
middle course.

A change would also be needed in II C 1, dealing with the Ordo Patricius.

1 Ordo Patricius (patrician order). The Patrician order shall consist
of belonging to those Gentes that were among the first thirty to join
Nova Roma. Should one of these spots become vacant, the Patrician
Senators shall, by majority vote have the power to nominate a plebeian
gens to be elavated to patrician status apon passage of a Lex Curatia.
a. A multi family Patrician Gens may at it's option have both
Patrician and Plebian families. A new Patrician family may only
founded by a person allready belonging to a Patrician family with in
that Gens.
b. Should the postion of a Patrician family within a Patrician Gens
become vacant, The Patrician Senators shall, by majority vote have the
power to nominate a plebeian family to be elavated to patrician status
apon passage of a Lex Curatia.

In addition to the changes that allow for the historic model of
Patrician and Plebian families in a Patrician Gens I changed the
manner that a Gens might be elevated to Patrician status. Currently
the Censors just make the change. In the future we may have two
Plebian Censors, and don't feel that it's proper for a Pleb to be
making this decession that by right belongs to the Patricians, so I
moved the power to nominate to the Patrician Senators. In Antiquita
only the Comitia Curiata had the power to change a citizens status
between the Orders. Examples are P. Clodius need for a Lex Curatia to
become a Pleb in order to run for Tribune, and Divus Augustus having a
Lex Curatia passed legitimizing his adoption and change of status from
a Pleb to a Patrician.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Tapestry follow up
From:	CmndrZil@--------
Date:	Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:33:57 EDT

Hyapatia Asinia spaketh:

>Actually the floor loom isn't what they would have used, they
>used warp-weighted looms, and you can make them out of dowels, or
>if you have a doorway you don't use [I once had an apartment
>chopped out of a larger one with a doorway that the door was
>nailed shut on. I used it for a chinning bar mount ;-)]
>http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/wwloom.html
>Thora has about the best overall site on this you will find ;-)
>The site includes [or it used to] a reconstructed roman loom, and
>all sorts of other info.
>

Now you tell me. The nice thing about the cardboard box method is that its
particularly small, so the sanity won't overtake me for too long, but the
detail is excruciating. What is a warp weighted loom? The door loom is an
idea. (I'm already crazy, I might as well have fun with it.)

>
>I do know how to drop spin, but just with the spindle, not the
>distaff. It is not a hard skill to pick up, and I have seen some
>of the women I know actually walking around spinning, and instead
>of spinning the spindle with the hands just sort of kicking it
>along. I am NOT that good, I just don't spend quite those hours
>practicing.
>

I've skipped most of the steps between sheep/cotton seeds and embroidery
floss. I'm not even really sure what embroidery floss is made out of. What
are you spinning?

>I have actually thought about weaving my own wollens for resale,
>in the roman picture it shows a swatch of fabric with the clavii
>stripes for the under tunic.
>

Then you're the person to talk to. Where have you been all my life?

>There is also another 'cheat' loom making use of a door, but it
>takes 2 people to help you warp it. You wrap the warp vertically
>around the door, but not 'around the door' per se, you have a
>person on either side of the door, with the person on what will
>be the back side of the door holding a dowel the width of the
>door with a knob of epoxy on either end [to keep the threads from
>sliding off at the wrong time.] You tie the warp to one end of
>the rod and pass it over the door, the person on the front side
>of the door lines it up on teh front of the door and the warp
>then passes under the door. You loop the warp around the dowel
>and reverse it to pass the next run under the door, line it up
>neatly and pass it over the door, where you pass it around the
>dowel, reverse and loop it over the door. You end up with the
>warp passing over and under the door, but secured by the dowel.
>When it is warped finally, carefully slide the dowel to rest on
>the top of the door.

I think that makes sense. Yes, yes it does. I'd need to change the
arrangement of the room I'm thinking about. Or, I could do it someone else's
room. What sort of string or thread should I consider? Yarn, though thick
and efficient, is definately not the look I'm going for. Unless you have
some other suggestion, I'm going to stick with sewing thread. What color
should I use for the warp? White makes the most sense to me, but I've been
worried that it'll show up.

Take 2 more dowels of about the same size,
>and use them as heddles to raise sheds. Using the first dowel,
>tie little threads to alternating warp threads and to the dowel,
>do the same with the leftover warp threads and the other dowel.
>What you do with these is simple. When you gently pull towards
>you with one of the dowels, it pulls the warp threads away from
>the door making a sort of space between the other set of warp
>threads, this space is where you pass your shuttle [basically a
>stick with the weft thread neatly wound on it.] after the pass,
>release the shed and pull the other shed, pass the shuttle back
>the other way in this new shed. Repeat until you go insane ;-)

Ooo... It all makes so much more sense. Something else I'd read mentioned
something like that but it didn't make sense. I've been using a needle and
picking up the warp strings at the appropriate times, but that would be much
more efficient.

>Every 10 passes or so, use the comb to compress the fabric. You
>also have to make sure that you always pull the weft thread
>through with the same tension to keep the selvedge edges even.
>The comb used isn't actually like a modern hair comb, it is more
>like an uktra heavy 'fro pick' style, and it is used with a sort
>of 'backhand flip' up passing the width of the loom several
>times.


>Anybody want to know how to use this tpe of loom to make oriental
>rugs? I know how to make the right knots ...

Sure!

And since you're here... How do I change colors on the weft thing? Do I
have to tie the new color to the old color at just the right place, or is
there maybe a secret method passed down from the generations that my no
culture family has kept from me?



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Xtreme Xtians
From:	"Sokarus Apollonius Callias" <hadescallias@-------->
Date:	Sun, 24 Jun 2001 11:23:18 +0200

right now it looks like nobody really knows of our existence but i think they already know about us and are waiting until we come out of the dark to destroy us. When the last roman emperor converted to christianity he persecuted pagan priests and destroyed the pagan temples. The priests were said to be torture to death. I think we should be beter organized and have a beter structure than we do now if we decide to step out of the dark into the spotlight because many people will think of us as demon worshipers or devil worshipers but if you look at the history. one would say that christianity is the worship of the devil and demons not pagan religions.As far what the ressurection of christ is, it would be more likely that the romans stole his body at night when nobody was arround to see it so everyone would think he come back from the dead. if someone would say to me i'm a agent of the anti- christ or the devil,Satan than i would respond and say that he's more likely to be an agent of them than we ever wil be.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re:Tapestry follow-up
From:	gkbagne@--------
Date:	Tue, 26 Jun 2001 07:03:23 -0000

>From Lepella, To All Salvete!
Historically, you'd be correct in using either a floor loom or a
warp-weighted loom. There is a second century book in Greek on dream
interpretation that gives different interpretations for dreaming of a
woman either sitting or standing at a loom. There also have been
found fourth century heddle pieces from coptic Egypt. I have also
read references to, but never seen a tombstone carving in a Roman
graveyard in Asia Minor of a tableloom, which is just a small version
of a floorloom.
I've woven a bit on both style looms. I hung my warp weighted loom
from a sawhorse with tall legs, so it was mobile and didn't take up
1/2 the living room for months on end. I imagine a floor loom big
enough to make a formal toga would be too massive for normal use, but
just the right size to get upclose to for tapestry work.
Good luck on your tapestry, Be Well! (imperative)




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Subject:	[novaroma] Roman Camp / Main List
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Tue, 26 Jun 2001 05:07:07 -0400 (EDT)

Master Publius Sentius Rutilanus Dexion;

My dear sir;

I offer you the Militarium List if you are interested in things
Military, and the chance to be active there if you are weary of the of
the political "clack" that is now so prevelent on the Main List.
Recently an issue of the Miitarium Newsletter "Pilum" was posted here on
the Main List, the second such issued by the Sodalitas Militarium,
without so much as a comment, from anyone so I must infer that while the
Main List must certainly own up to much of what you say, any attempt to
change that venue is not appreciated very much either!!!

To Gaius Macius Coriolanus, I say -- your postings on Military Subjects
and information relating to military subjects is always welcome on the
Militarium List where such are apprecated to their full value.

To any in Nova Roma who are interested in the military aspects of Rome,
her Legions, her Auxila, her Naval Might, or her Engineering Skllls, the
Militarium stands ready to assist you with those interests and to
provide some small amount of relief from the eternal political views and
counter-views on the Main List.

All that is required is an interest in things Military, contact either
myself, my Beneficarius, my Cornicularius, or my Assensii Major, and ask
to join. That is all that is required.

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Tapestry follow up
From:	margali <margali@-------->
Date:	Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:31:33 -0400

;-)
Taken off list unless anybody else wants the info
margali
~~~~~~
Lots of snippage of warp-weighted looms, subs for frame looms,
spinning and weaving considerations



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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Roman Camp / Main List
From:	"Gaius Marcius Coriolanus" <coriolanus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:45:00 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, jmath669642reng@w... wrote:
> Master Publius Sentius Rutilanus Dexion;
>
> My dear sir;
>
> I offer you the Militarium List if you are interested in things
> Military, and the chance to be active there if you are weary of the
of
> the political "clack" that is now so prevelent on the Main List.
> Recently an issue of the Miitarium Newsletter "Pilum" was posted
here on
> the Main List, the second such issued by the Sodalitas Militarium,
> without so much as a comment, from anyone so I must infer that
while the
> Main List must certainly own up to much of what you say, any
attempt to
> change that venue is not appreciated very much either!!!
>
> To Gaius Macius Coriolanus, I say -- your postings on Military
Subjects
> and information relating to military subjects is always welcome on
the
> Militarium List where such are apprecated to their full value.


Salve

This is not only relating to military subjects, it is also
archeological and maybe historical information information and I
guessed that coud be interesting for no only Sodalitas Militarium.

But as Publius Sentius said. Main list is place mostly for political
struggles.

Ave et Vale
Gaius Marcius Coriolanus












>
> To any in Nova Roma who are interested in the military aspects of
Rome,
> her Legions, her Auxila, her Naval Might, or her Engineering
Skllls, the
> Militarium stands ready to assist you with those interests and to
> provide some small amount of relief from the eternal political
views and
> counter-views on the Main List.
>
> All that is required is an interest in things Military, contact
either
> myself, my Beneficarius, my Cornicularius, or my Assensii Major,
and ask
> to join. That is all that is required.
>
> Respectfully;
> Marcus Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
>
> http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Tapestry follow up
From:	margali <margali@-------->
Date:	Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:26:31 -0400

> Now you tell me. The nice thing about the cardboard box method is that its particularly small, so the sanity won't overtake me for too long, but the detail is excruciating. What is a warp weighted loom? The door loom is an idea. (I'm already crazy, I might as well have fun with it.)

Well, the original looms took 2 forms, the warp weighted loom and
the backstrap loom.

A back strap loom is a small nomadic type that is essentially 2
rods, 1 secured to a tree and the other to your waist, with the
warp running between the 2. With this kind you weave by using a
thin rod to work between the threads to make the shed, sort of
like you are doing with your box [which is also a frequent loom
replacement for small pieces, by the way ;-)] and then you run
the shuttle in the created shed.

A warp weighted loom is essentially a giant sawhorse - a top bar
and something to support it. I suppose in a pinch you could hane
the bar from the hanging plant type cieling hooks ;-) This type
of loom is worked upside down, you weave and then pound it
upwards. The illustration on Thora's page of the reconstructed
roman loom pretty much shows it all. Most people I know nowdays
use the heaviest deep sea lead fishing sinker they can find, the
4 oz ones.


>
> I've skipped most of the steps between sheep/cotton seeds and embroidery floss. I'm not even really sure what embroidery floss is made out of. What are you spinning?
>

Embroidery floss is generally cotton, althoough I have a nice
australian source for silk, and a french source for wool.
I spin wool. I have tried silk and linen, silk is very delicate
to spin, you can't drop spindle it, it need a bowl spindle [you
put the end of a drop spindle into a bowl and spin it supported
instead of free-swinging.] Linen fibers are ling, and like a
micro-fine baling twine fiber. Think of spinning lengths of
spaghetti or horses tail hairs.
>
> Then you're the person to talk to. Where have you been all my life?

;-)
Well, I was born in Rochester NY in october 1961, and lived there
until 1986 when I moved to Virginia BEach. I lived in Virginia
until 1990, when I moved to eastern Connecticut. In about 4 years
we are retiring to Arizona - as soon as Uncle Sam is finished
with my husband ;-)

>
> I think that makes sense. Yes, yes it does. I'd need to change the arrangement of the room I'm thinking about. Or, I could do it someone else's room. What sort of string or thread should I consider? Yarn, though thick and efficient, is definately not the look I'm going for. Unless you have some other suggestion, I'm going to stick with sewing thread. What color should I use for the warp? White makes the most sense to me, but I've been worried that it'll show up.
>
http://www.borgsvavgarner.se/engelsk is a great source for linen,
which is what I would choose to warp the loom with. I would go
for the unbleached linen warping for tapestries. They also have a
print catalog, but I can't find mine right now.

The same company has a very nice line of wools, which I would
choose to use as they fill better. You can also buy wool
embroidery yarn at some craft stores is small skeins. It all
depends on what you want to do size wise - for a small tapestry I
might buy by the skein, but for anything larger I would
definitely buy by weight. The linen/wool combination is called
'linsey-woolsey' in the british isles, but you can buy cotton,
linen or wool warping thread. Although I have actually used the
ultra heavy duty Coats and Clark button thread in a pinch [the
really heavy stuff that is twice the thickness of sewing thread.]

>
> Ooo... It all makes so much more sense. Something else I'd read mentioned something like that but it didn't make sense. I've been using a needle and picking up the warp strings at the appropriate times, but that would be much more efficient.
>
That is actually the way that most tapestries are hand woven, you
get much finer control that way. You can buy special needles that
are 5-6 inches long for doing that with.

This is a great site for what you are trying to do :
http://www.weavingartmuseum.org/index.html
It shows what they were able to do in period. It also has some
great colors.

http://www.shannocklooms.com/
If you go to 'beaters' you will see what I mean that the closest
type of comb is a fro pick, but these are much larger and
heavier.

>
> And since you're here... How do I change colors on the weft thing? Do I have to tie the new color to the old color at just the right place, or is there maybe a secret method passed down from the generations that my no culture family has kept from me?
>
>

Actually, I would seriously recommend that you buy a book
specifically about tapestry weaving, I don't do it even though I
have seen it done, I pprefer to tablet weave trim strips and
weave yard goods.

That is another thing for you to check out - tablet weaving ;-)

come over to the dark side - making your own fabric ;-)
margali



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Subject:	[novaroma] Freedom of Speech and Language
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:14:32 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

I would like to express my concern that Civis Limitanus was harassed
(1) for the use of Latin (untranslated) and
(2) for the expression of political opposition thereby (incidentally
to the husband of the Curatrix Sermonis).

I might note that for a long time I used a quote in my signature in
Latin translated only into Esperanto. I was never persecuted for
this. It seems that if one wants to express dislike for a particular
leader simply by saying that you would prefer him no longer to be
leader - which he might dislike, indeed, but is not by any means a
personal insult, but simply a political opinion.

I think that the Main List Language Policy (a horse not dead, but
sleeping, and bow showing signs of awakening when kicked) has by this
clearly demonstrated how it can be used not only to be frustrating to
the preferers of other languages, but even as a pretext for
suppressing political dissent.

I would like to note that when Vedius posted a senseless piece of
inflamatory rhetoric expressing his opinion that *I* should leave
office, Vedia did nothing to protect me against his political opinion
- expressed much more at length and with direct attack on my personal
honour. However, a little Latin tag expressing simple political
opposition to Vedius and Vedia jumps in...

Is this a level playing field for everyone? I am sure the Curatrix
Sermonis can find some definition by which it is - but what about the
rest of us who might have a more objective idea about fair play...

Valete!

_________________________________________________
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Psterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
Aedilis Plebeius, Amicus Dignitatis
Magister Scholae Latinae
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
Gens Apollonia: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
The Gens Apollonia is accepting new members.
____________________________________________________
All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph in the world is for
enough good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
___________________________________________________




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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Freedom of Speech and Language
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:22:16 -0400

Salve,

Let me start by commenting on how sadly unsurprised I am by your knee-jerk
reaction and use of such terms as "harassed" and "persecuted". It is
painfully clear that you have a less-than-full understanding of all that has
transpired. I guess I am seeing the downside to having the courtesy to keep
disciplinary measures confidential.

>>I would like to express my concern that Civis Limitanus was harassed
(1) for the use of Latin (untranslated) and
(2) for the expression of political opposition thereby (incidentally
to the husband of the Curatrix Sermonis).>>

Actually I believe Limitanus wishes *me* removed from office, not my
husband. Possibly both of us, he has not chosen to comment beyond the sig
line.

>>I think that the Main List Language Policy (a horse not dead, but
sleeping, and bow showing signs of awakening when kicked) has by this
clearly demonstrated how it can be used not only to be frustrating to
the preferers of other languages, but even as a pretext for
suppressing political dissent.>>

This makes no sense. How is requiring a translation "suppressing dissent"?
Whether I call someone un perro feo or an ugly dog, the meaning is the same.

>>I would like to note that when Vedius posted a senseless piece of
inflamatory rhetoric expressing his opinion that *I* should leave
office, Vedia did nothing to protect me against his political opinion
- expressed much more at length and with direct attack on my personal
honour. However, a little Latin tag expressing simple political
opposition to Vedius and Vedia jumps in...>>

LOL You, sir, could not BE more wrong if you tried! Amazing the conclusions
you jump to without the benefit of even one tiny fraction of evidence. Let
me say this....again.....for your benefit: "All disciplinary actions are
confidential". The only reason Limitanus' status is pubic knowledge is he
chose to make it so. Now, would you.......self-perceived "champion of
personal freedoms"........approve if I started to publish lists of who was
warned/moderated and for what? Of course, I am sure in your mind the fact
that I do not announce warnings/moderation is some deep dark scheme to hide
my secret oppression of the masses. Just because you don't see a post does
not mean an issue was not addressed. I guess this is just another downside
to having the courtesy to protect people's privacy.

>>Is this a level playing field for everyone? I am sure the Curatrix
Sermonis can find some definition by which it is - but what about the
rest of us who might have a more objective idea about fair play...>>

It certainly is. The List Policies are enforced across the board from
Senior Consul to the newest member here. If you had the first *clue* as to
the facts here, as opposed to your usual jump to the most extreme
conclusion, you would see that everyone here is treated equally.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonis





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Subject:	[novaroma] New poll for novaroma
From:	novaroma@--------
Date:	26 Jun 2001 14:24:12 -0000

Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
novaroma group:

How would you prefer to see List
disciplinary actions handled?

o Keep it as is: all actions by moderators kept confidential
o Moderators should keep warnings private but announce moderation
o All disciplinary actions should be made public


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma/polls

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!









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Subject:	[novaroma] New Poll Created
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:30:08 -0400

Salve,

There has been much discussion of late regarding list policies and
disciplinary measures. There seems to be an issue regarding the current
policy, which is to keep all disciplinary measures confidential. That has
led to accusations that not everyone is being treated equally.

The current policy is that I do not share any disciplinary issues with
anyone other than my scribe. If an individual wishes to make it known that
they have been warned or moderated, that is their business, however I do not
make the knowledge public as a rule. Some seem to appreciate the privacy,
while others have concerns that such secrecy leads to abuses of power.

Please take a moment to visit the List website and vote in the poll. The
choices offered are to leave things as they are, leave warnings private but
announce moderations, or to make all disciplinary actions public. I am quite
interested to see how people feel about this and will take the results under
serious consideration.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonis




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Freedom of Speech and Language
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:33:02 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Marce Apolloni,

> I would like to express my concern that Civis Limitanus was harassed
> (1) for the use of Latin (untranslated) and
> (2) for the expression of political opposition thereby (incidentally
> to the husband of the Curatrix Sermonis).

Don't forget his call for secession.

> I might note that for a long time I used a quote in my signature in
> Latin translated only into Esperanto. I was never persecuted for
> this.

That's because we *like* you!

Vale, O.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Freedom of Speech and Language
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:37:03 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> wrote:
>
> M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
> I would like to express my concern that Civis Limitanus was
harassed
> (1) for the use of Latin (untranslated) and
> (2) for the expression of political opposition thereby
(incidentally
> to the husband of the Curatrix Sermonis).

DRUSUS: Vedia asked for a translation of that phrase on another
board, one that you are a member of, and recived a translation that
was somewhat stronger than Limitanus claims he intended. Despite your
knowledge of Latin you did nothing to correct the mistranslation and
allowed this misunderstanding to continue.

This is a danger that has to be accepted any time that translations
are involved, that someone may translate your statement in a manner
that changes the meaning of what you intended to say.
>
> I might note that for a long time I used a quote in my
signature in
> Latin translated only into Esperanto. I was never persecuted for
> this. It seems that if one wants to express dislike for a
particular
> leader simply by saying that you would prefer him no longer to be
> leader - which he might dislike, indeed, but is not by any means a
> personal insult, but simply a political opinion.
>
> I think that the Main List Language Policy (a horse not dead,
but
> sleeping, and bow showing signs of awakening when kicked) has by
this
> clearly demonstrated how it can be used not only to be frustrating
to
> the preferers of other languages, but even as a pretext for
> suppressing political dissent.

DRUSUS:Until we are ready to appoint scribes who are skilled at
translating posts, and limiting translations to these scribes a multi
lingual policy will only cause more misunderstandings caused by
mistranslations.
>
> I would like to note that when Vedius posted a senseless
piece of
> inflamatory rhetoric expressing his opinion that *I* should leave
> office, Vedia did nothing to protect me against his political
opinion
> - expressed much more at length and with direct attack on my
personal
> honour. However, a little Latin tag expressing simple political
> opposition to Vedius and Vedia jumps in...

DRUSUS:Vedia has mentioned that she has given warnings to Vedius.
Since these warnings are confidental in ALL cases we have no way of
knowing if the Consul did recive a warning for that post, unless he
chooses to make it public.
>
> Is this a level playing field for everyone? I am sure the
Curatrix
> Sermonis can find some definition by which it is - but what about
the
> rest of us who might have a more objective idea about fair play...
>
> Valete!
>
> _________________________________________________
> Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
> Psterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
> Aedilis Plebeius, Amicus Dignitatis
> Magister Scholae Latinae
> ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
> Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
> Gens Apollonia: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
> The Gens Apollonia is accepting new members.
> ____________________________________________________
> All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph in the world
is for
> enough good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
> ___________________________________________________




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: New Poll Created
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:50:34 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@g...> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> There has been much discussion of late regarding list policies and
> disciplinary measures. There seems to be an issue regarding the
current
> policy, which is to keep all disciplinary measures confidential.
That has
> led to accusations that not everyone is being treated equally.
>
> The current policy is that I do not share any disciplinary issues
with
> anyone other than my scribe. If an individual wishes to make it
known that
> they have been warned or moderated, that is their business, however
I do not
> make the knowledge public as a rule. Some seem to appreciate the
privacy,
> while others have concerns that such secrecy leads to abuses of
power.
>
> Please take a moment to visit the List website and vote in the
poll. The
> choices offered are to leave things as they are, leave warnings
private but
> announce moderations, or to make all disciplinary actions public. I
am quite
> interested to see how people feel about this and will take the
results under
> serious consideration.
>
> Vale,
> Priscilla Vedia Serena
> Curatrix Sermonis

Salve,

My choice isn't a part of the poll, so I'll have to settle for making
a post.

Moderation and warnings to private citizens should remain private.
Any action against Magistrates should be a matter of public record.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus




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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: New Poll Created
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:08:33 -0400

Salve,

>>Moderation and warnings to private citizens should remain private. Any
action against Magistrates should be a matter of public record.>>

You are correct,this choice did not occur to me. It is an interesting point
you raise. I'd be interested to hear your rational for it if you wouldn't
mind.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena
Curatrix Sermonis




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: New Poll Created
From:	"Lucius Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:31:04 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@g...> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> >>Moderation and warnings to private citizens should remain
private. Any
> action against Magistrates should be a matter of public record.>>
>
> You are correct,this choice did not occur to me. It is an
interesting point
> you raise. I'd be interested to hear your rational for it if you
wouldn't
> mind.
>
> Vale,
> Priscilla Vedia Serena
> Curatrix Sermonis

Salve,
Private indiviuals have the right to retain thier privacy, however
Magistrates are expected to speak on behalf of the state and anything
that may affect thier ability to do this is a matter of public
concern.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Citizenship Diploma Idea
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:04:23 -0400

Maximina Octavia wrote:

> Thank you for your kind welcome and setting me straight on this subject. I am
> certain as long as there are veterans such as yourself on the List, I will
> learn a great deal.

> I hope this venture proves very successful for you and Nova Roma. I am
> certain many citizens would be honored to have this "diploma" hanging in their
> homes or offices.

> Again, I think your work its quite beautiful and I for one would feel
> privileged to be one of those citizens with a certificate of this kind on my
> wall.

I am hardly a veteran Maximina Octavia, though thanks for all the kind
complements. I am flattered.


"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Canada Orientalis Provincia
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien
--

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Citizenship Diploma Idea
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:08:06 -0400

Pompeia Cornelia Strabo wrote:

>
> I have been in discussion with the consuls regarding this, and I am
> confident that an admirable and reasonably priced certificate can be
> produced....whether you live in Orlando or Oslo. The price that Claudius
> quoted in an earlier post is not carved in stone; we have yet to
> comprehensively assess our expenses, and render a final financial scenerio
> to the Consuls.

Anything new lately from the consuls?


"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Canada Orientalis Provincia
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien
--

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: New Poll Created
From:	Amulius Claudius Petrus <pkkt@-------->
Date:	Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:48:18 -0400

Salve civis et amicus,

The majority of disciplinary actions should be privet matters. Still there
is a need for disciplinary actions to become public. An example of this
would be Drusus comments about magistrates another is multiple offenders.
Public announcements can be used a punishment and we must not forget this.
If a citizen is not obeying privet disciplinary matters then it only seems
like common sense to make it a public matter. We should not rule out public
announcements, I still see a need for them in some rare cases.

"Quamquam cupido sis delictum ab sui crebro suum mater ab vitualis"
"Though ambition may be a fault in itself it is often the mother of virtues"

--
Amulius Claudius Petrus
Retarius Officium Canada Orientalis
Canada Orientalis Provincia
www.freehost.nu/members/canorien
--

Gens Claudia Website:
www.freehost.nu/members/gensclaudia/



Lucius Sicinius Drusus wrote:
> Salve,
> Private indiviuals have the right to retain thier privacy, however
> Magistrates are expected to speak on behalf of the state and anything
> that may affect thier ability to do this is a matter of public
> concern.





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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Xtreme Xtians
From:	amg@--------
Date:	Tue, 26 Jun 2001 18:04:27 -0000

Salvete omnes

I'm here to answer both as a non-Christian follower of the Religio
Romana and as an amateur student of Philosophy.

Lets not turn this list into a combat between Christians and non-
Christians. There is nothing here to fight for:
- Senator Marcus Minucius Audens is the example of a Christian who is
doing a lot for the Religio Romana, supporting initiatives to promote
it among the macronational public.
- Censor Lucius Cornelius Sulla is a Jew who as magistrate has also
sworn an oath of allegiance to the Roman Gods. Both these people have
done more for the Religio than many "pagans". And they know more
about the Religio than many "pagans" who claim to be followers of the
Religio Romana.

Lets be correct and behave like the wise men of old. According to
many ancient Roman writers, the definition of "religio" (its
classical translation is "observance") is connected with ritual
observance and not inner belief.
This means that any Jew, Moslem, Christian, Hindu, Atheist or
whatever who performs Roman rituals is a follower of the Religio
Romana independently of his inner beliefs. For the Roman Gods, the
simple fact that one worships them is enough to invoke their support
and benevolence. And these Gods are as magnanimous as to allow humans
to think about them freely, for the reasoning about the Gods is out
of the scope of the Religio Romana. Its basic form belongs to the
realm of folklore and Myth... While its more elaborate forms belong
to the realm of Philosophy, more specifically the discipline of
Theology or Theosophy.

So, my sugestion for those who claim to be followers of the Religio
Romana is for them to stop attacking Christians and other religious
belief systems. Instead concentrate on learning about the Religio
Romana and start observing the Religio Romana at your homes. Only in
this way you will be contributing to the knowledge of the Religio
Romana and be able to claim you are among its followers. Until then
the Roman Gods will not hear your assertions, for just like humans,
the Gods also become bothered with useless fanatic dogmatic
discussions which bear no drop of humanity and respect for the very
same freedom of thought they have offered to humans.

At least try to put more reasoning and less passion in your debates.
Unless a specific group of people or historical period is being
debated, instead of referring to the "fanatic Christians", refer to
the "fanatic humans". Personally, I believe that in terms of
percentage, there are as many ignorant fanatic pagans as there are
ignorant fanatic Christians. And I even find the former more
threatening to the Religio Romana than the latter. For the ignorant
fanatic pagans act from the inside to subvert the very nature of the
Religio according to their limited minds, while the ignorant fanatic
christians fight the Religio as it is (in fact, several Roman pagan
works and practices are known because some Christian authors attacked
them).

Valete bene in pace libertateque deorum romanorum

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex






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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Tribune's Opinion on Censorship
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:32:49 -0700 (PDT)

Salve, Tribune Labiene.

--- Fortunatus <labienus@--------> wrote:
> Salvete Gnai Salix omnesque
>
> > I have to disagree with you. I do not support M. Villius Limitanus'
> > call for secession, but I don't think it can be viewed as a "clear
> > danger to the Republic".
>
> Note that I said that it can "reasonably be interpreted to represent
> a
> 'clear danger...'". I am not at all certain that I would decide the
> case as Curatrix Vedia has, and I am rather glad that it is not me
> who
> must make the decision. I admit that it is quite likely that my own
> bias as a citizen of the US, a country in which secession is
> generally
> seen as dangerous for a variety of reasons, is clouding my judgement
> in
> this matter. That thought was one of many that did not make my
> decision
> an easy one.

Thank you for explaining this situation for me. I do understand your
point of view; however, I think we should always try to get rid of our
national bias when handling issues in an international community like
Nova Roma. I guess it is the source of most misunderstaindings here, so
we should try to avoid it.

Having said this, I have to say that I am really sorry for maybe
presenting the impression of always disagreeing with you. I hope you
and everybody is aware that this is not the case; I agree with you in
many issues.

I just thought I had to make that clear ;-).



=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gentes et Patresfamilias
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:35:13 -0700 (PDT)

Salve, Tribune Fortunate.

--- Fortunatus <labienus@--------> wrote:
> Salvete iterum

<<snipped>>

> > I guess you were just trying to provide a simple solution to this
> > problem, and I really appreciate it.
>
> I was offering it primarily in the spirit of compromise, as it allows
> those gentes that prefer the status quo to remain as they are, and
> those
> gentes that prefer to follow another path the flexibility necessary
> to
> do so.

I agree with you in that flexibility is mandatory in this case.
However, the proposal of Lucius Sicinius Drusus already contemplated
this flexibility, and I think it would not be so difficult to
implement.



=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Gentes et Patresfamilias
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:48:21 -0700 (PDT)

Salve, L. Sicini Druse.

You already now that I fully support your idea of differenciating
familiae and gentes. I like your last proposal, but I would like to
make a few comments on it:

--- Lucius Sicinius Drusus <lsicinius@--------> wrote:

<<snipped>>

> Section II D would read like this.

<<snipped>>

> 4. Each Gens shall, through whatever means it may determine
> appropriate, have a patergentilias (fem. matergentilias) who shall
> act
> as the leader of the Gens and speak for it when necessary. The holder
> of this position must be registered as such with the censors. The
> patergentilias may, at his or her discretion, expel members of their
> gens, or accept new members into it.

My only suggestion here would be to adopt the title of "capites
gentium" (singular "caput gentis") instead of patergentilias or
matergentilias.

> 5. Each multi family Gens shall, through whatever means it may
> determine appropriate, have a paterfamilias (fem. materfamilias) for
> each family within the Gens who shall act as the leader of the Family
> and speak for it when necessary. The holder of this position must be
> registered as such with the censors. The paterfamilias may, with the
> permission of the Patergentilis, expel members of their Family, or
> accept new members into it.

I guess that patres and matres familias should be allowed to accept or
expel members from their familiae without the permission of the caput
gentis, and without necessarily expelling them from the whole gens.

I fully support all the other points of your proposal.


=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Xtreme Xtians
From:	Antonius Corvus Septimius <antoniuscorvusseptimius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:32:48 -0700 (PDT)

--- Sokarus Apollonius Callias
<hadescallias@--------> wrote:
> right now it looks like nobody really knows of our
> existence but i think they already know about us and
> are waiting until we come out of the dark to destroy
> us. When the last roman emperor converted to
> christianity he persecuted pagan priests and
> destroyed the pagan temples. The priests were said
> to be torture to death. I think we should be beter
> organized and have a beter structure than we do now
> if we decide to step out of the dark into the
> spotlight because many people will think of us as
> demon worshipers or devil worshipers but if you look
> at the history. one would say that christianity is
> the worship of the devil and demons not pagan
> religions.As far what the ressurection of christ is,
> it would be more likely that the romans stole his
> body at night when nobody was arround to see it so
> everyone would think he come back from the dead. if
> someone would say to me i'm a agent of the anti-
> christ or the devil,Satan than i would respond and
> say that he's more likely to be an agent of them
> than we ever wil be.
>
>
Salvete omnes,
I make it very clear in the outside
world, that I am observant in the religio Romana (if
asked). The terms that have been used as derrogatory
toward us, are corrected by tactfully stating the
origin of these terms. And most of the time, I am met
with a kind acknowledgement by people who state their
religion as Christian.
The only ones who are intent on
attacking
another persons beliefs are usually ignorrant. And do
not deserve my time. So, everyone.. please be happy
with who you are. And knowledgable in your beliefs..
Whatever they are.

Vale bene, A. Corvus Septimius

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